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September 11, 2003

The greatest city in the world. Like many of us, Eric Alterman likes to go walking in it.
I was walking past an enormous construction site at 42nd and Madison at the moment when the planes hit two years ago and the construction guys were—I swear—calling out and whistling to the pretty girls walking by. I know that92s supposed to be a bad thing, but God, I love my unkillable home.

Since 9/11 we have gotten nothing but sanctimony laced with acrimony from our national government. We are starved for funds and told to fend for ourselves as our schools go begging, homelessness increases, services decline and the city bleeds money trying to carry the cost of a global terrorist threat on its weakened back. There are days when it appears that Bush, Cheney, DeLay, and Pataki would prefer to see us die; they have other fish to fry—imperial wars, police-state intelligence tactics, and, of course, tax-giveaways to the wealthiest few. They even lied to us about the air quality at Ground Zero, telling heroes who didn92t know if it was even safe to breathe to go ahead and risk their lives. (Is there a special circle of Hell for those who lie to persuade others to risk their lives while shielding themselves from all danger? If so, I hope they have a special room for the guys who do it dressed up like fighter pilots.)

[01:56 PM]
Welcome to Electrolite's comments section.
Hard-Hitting Moderator: Teresa Nielsen Hayden.

Comments on The greatest city in the world.:

the talking dog ::: (view all by) ::: September 11, 2003, 02:58 PM:

Amen, Brother Patrick. Amen.

Fred ::: (view all by) ::: September 11, 2003, 04:33 PM:

Deceivers and false counsellors go into the eighth circle, eighth bolgia.

Randy Paul ::: (view all by) ::: September 11, 2003, 08:25 PM:

Fred:

Maybe they'll have this fate.

Texdriver ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 10:52 AM:

To mr. Alterman:

As you walk through the valley of despair, and breathe the sweet air of freedom, be assured that the horror that has been visited upon you by our government weighs heavy on the souls of the liberated.

They cry for you, the wail for you, and they may thank their God every single day they taste the freedoms you would have denied them, raise the voices you would have kept silenced, see a new future free of the brutality you consider their birthright - but not even their god can lift your soul from the sadness their freedoms have brought upon you, and they wonder if their liberation was worth the price of the tortured soul of an American narcissist.

Their one salvation is knowing that none of this was granted to them In Your Name, and I, like they, will forever carry your pain, you moron.

Kevin J. Maroney ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 11:33 AM:

So, Texdriver, why do you hate America?

John Farrell ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 11:38 AM:

Sounds to me like Texdriver has a screwdriver up his a$$.

Phelps ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 02:30 PM:

There were six carrier related crashes since the start of the year. The only reason there were no deaths is because of the excellent men we have on carrier SAR crews. To say that Bush was "shielding himself from danger" in the same breath that you mock his flight suit is to mock the pilots who risk thier lives every time they try to park a combat aircraft between those four wires.

They do a dangerous job, and I don't hold a high opinion of anyone who treats their risk frivolously by dismissing it just because they are carrying a payload you don't like.

Patrick Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 03:20 PM:

"To say that Bush was 'shielding himself from danger' in the same breath that you mock his flight suit is to mock the pilots who risk their lives every time they try to park a combat aircraft between those four wires."

Oh, no it's not. As you know perfectly well.

The only people "mocking the pilots who risk their lives" are the spinmeisters who press their images into service for dismal political stunts. I admire fighter pilots. Karl Rove just regards them as tools, the same way he regards you.

Phelps ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 04:04 PM:

Funny, last time I checked Bush's service record, he served as a fighter pilot.

Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 04:30 PM:

You didn't check the part where he disobeyed a direct order to fly a mildly dangerous mission. The part that makes him, in the eyes of many of our military, a deserter.

Texdriver ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 04:50 PM:

Hate America?

Screwdriver up my ass?

Well, I'm reasonably certain I love my country and would not love a screwdriver up my ass, but I believe alterman is more often than not a self-absorbed twit with a sense of historical proportion on the level of a three-year old.

I just can't wait for the wailing after the elections of '04 - I expect lefties will be self-flagellating in the street with palm leaves dipped in glue and glass, and alterman will lead the procession. Manalive *tha's* street theatre I can live with :)

Hmmm...note to self: invest in palm frond futures

A free Iraq, a desparing alterman...not a bad trade

Kevin J. Maroney ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 05:00 PM:

Tex, America is based on the principle that the government is accountable to the public. Since you seem to be forgrounding the idea that Americans should accept whatever lies the government feeds it as long as the outcome is one that you like, I will reiterate my question: Why do you hate America?

Or is it just New York and New Yorkers that you hate? You're revelling in the imagined despair of someone whose stated complaint is that the unaccountable government actively lied about the conditions at and around Ground Zero, endangering both the disposable mere citizens of New York and the heroes that America supposedly hailed, those who walked into the burning remains of the largest building in the world to try to find any survivors and ended up with its toxic remains coating their lungs. So I'll ask you, more specifically, why do you hate America's rescue workers?

Texdriver ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 05:19 PM:

Why don't you just let the facts come out before you hop on the EPA thing.

You'd have to be an utter moron to assume the airborne debris from *any* collapsed/burning building is safe.

Anyway, I was referring to the as-always upbeat alterman's general approach to *anything* remotely related to the administration. Christ, he should be on suicide watch.

Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 05:55 PM:

"You'd have to be an utter moron to assume the airborne debris from *any* collapsed/burning building is safe."

Ah, I see. He hates them for being dumb enough to have faith in the administration's analysis.

"I just can't wait for the wailing after the elections of '04"

Bush's approval rating is down 52%, just a notch above where it was before 9/11. He's squandered his Stalwart War Hero points in two short years, and from this time out will now be judged on his actual abilities.

Well, except by people dumb enough to have faith in the administration.

Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 06:56 PM:

Sorry, that should be down TO 52%.

Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 09:21 PM:

It's interesting that if you go back one directory from the document on Bush's service record, you see that it's from a site that debunks his claims of being a war hero.

Here is an earlier post to this weblog:

-----
"If this [description of W's heroic National Guard career implying he could have been sent to Vietnam] isn't true, I'd be happy to check out any links contradicting it."

Here's one.

"A Military Career Distinguished Only by Favoritism"

Summary: George W. Bush earned the lowest possible passing score on his pilot entrance aptitude test, yet was skipped ahead of a waiting list of about 100,000 others to be admitted to the Guard; he checked off the box saying 'do not volunteer' for overseas duty; he flew a number of hours about 1/3 below his obligation for the last year he flew at all; he was suspended and grounded; he stopped showing up for his weekend service (despite two direct orders) with two years left in the obligation he had solemnly sworn to undertake -- right at the time they started testing for drugs and alcohol; and now he declines to unseal his military record, which could help clear up errors of fact here, if any.

Once again, that's:
http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003z8g
-----

To see this with all the hyperlinks working (detailing documentation of the specific points mentioned in my statement), go to http://nielsenhayden.com/electrolite/archives/002829.html
and read my post of July 5, 2003, 12:19 pm.

But considering that Phelps, in order to get to this document, must have had to go through a page that stated that Bush had not fulfilled his service, and which directed readers to an article that said,

'Bush may have finally "made-up" his missed days. But he did so not by attending drills -- in fact he never attended drills again after he enrolled at Harvard. Instead, he had his name added to the roster of a paper unit in Denver, Colorado, a paper unit where he had no responsibility to show up and do a job.'

...well, under such circumstances, it seems ironic at the very least -- perhaps hilarious -- to point to this document and claim he was a fighter pilot. He washed out and bailed to go feather his own nest, confident he could get a golden parachute from the service after using it to avoid going to Vietnam.

Avram ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 09:30 PM:

<sigh> People, Texdriver is trolling. Look back over his posts. Note that he doesn't cite a single fact, make a single coherent accusation. He's not actually saying anything. He's dropped a verbal hand-grenade in here, and some of you have jumped on it.

Tex, you're free to prove me wrong. If you've got something concrete to say about Eric Alterman, say it. If you've got an accusation or criticism to make, make it. So far, the closest you've come has been your snide comment about airborne debris, which actually supports Alterman's thesis.

If you want me to take you seriously, then say what you're saying. Make claims, quote facts to back them up, draw conclusions, the whole rationalist schtick that Western civilization is based on. C'mon, you can do it if you try. But that would require actually making a coherent argument, which means running the risk of being rebutted.

The rest of you: Try to stop falling for this bullshit.

Patrick Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: September 12, 2003, 10:48 PM:

Avram Grumer is a grizzled old wise man of the net. Heed him.

Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: September 13, 2003, 12:16 AM:

Good advice. Messages are to a troll what claps for Tinkerbell.

I managed to get down to Manhattan last week. Visited old family friends in the Village, saw "American Splendor" with my mom, who read an entire Pekar anthology on the train down. On the way back, we walked down Bleeker, along which she showed me various family landmarks. Stopped by at a bakery I dimly remembered going to as a tot in the mid 60s. My grandparents' restaurant, Fugazzis, got their bread there going to the 40s. All done up fancy now, for the tourists, and I doubt they give out cookies to even really cute little kids.

But still there.

Greatest city in the world. Yes.

John Farrell ::: (view all by) ::: September 13, 2003, 02:40 PM:

Avram,

Okay. I hear you. (But I still think he sounds
like...oh, never mind.)

Phelps ::: (view all by) ::: September 14, 2003, 01:11 AM:

I read the site that I cited. That doesn't mean that the -conclusions- that site comes to agree with the documents. I saw many other sites that dispute those conclusions, but they didn't have scans of the documents. Because a librarian controls an authoratative text does not make the librarian an authority.

As for "the part where he disobeyed a direct order to fly a mildly dangerous mission", I'd like to see some evidence of that one. I hadn't heard that allegation.

Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: September 14, 2003, 09:38 AM:

I got it slightly wrong. He's a deserter because he refused a direct order to show up for weekend service, when (and I think because) they began testing for booze and drugs.

He's an oathbreaker because he flew fewer missions than his obligation.

I think he missed one of the twelve steps.

Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: September 14, 2003, 12:04 PM:

Phelps, did you go here and look at my comment from 12:19 pm of July 5 to see where each of my statements is backed up with hyperlinked references?

Back to the topic, a look at my library will confirm that I think there's something special about NYC. Books on the architecture and pictures of the city in different decades are sprinkled all through it. Would that I had the luxury to go walking about in it more often than once a year or once every couple of years. Next time maybe I'll bring a camera. Why should I care who thinks I'm a tourist? I'll take pictures of tall buildings and walk around looking up. Maybe I'll wear a loud Hawaiian shirt... well, now I'm being silly.

But anyway, I should do more than just head for Patelson's and spend a couple of hours poking through sheet music. I would want to do that too, of course.

Robert L ::: (view all by) ::: September 15, 2003, 02:43 AM:

The only people "mocking the pilots who risk their lives" are the spinmeisters who press their images into service for dismal political stunts.

And let's not forget that that same guy in the flight suit wants to reduce hazardous duty pay for those same pilots.

the talking dog ::: (view all by) ::: September 15, 2003, 03:17 PM:

Hey-- where'd Texdrivers witty rejoinder go? I was looking forward to his factually supported (with citations) response. Damn.

Anyway-- we'll never really know WHAT happened with respect to Bush and his Texas Air Guard service record, because substantial parts of that record magically disappeared while Dubya was in the governor's mansion (documented here: http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1&q=http://www.topplebush.com/article5_military.shtml&e=7689 )as reported by Greg Palast.

As Mel Brooks once said: its good to be the king.