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February 18, 2004

Upholding standards. From yesterday’s Los Angeles Times, via commenter Ray Radlein:
SAN FRANCISCO�Conservative groups trying to stop the city from issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples failed to win any immediate action today in two separate court hearings.

Superior Court Judge James Warren told plaintiffs late this afternoon that they would likely succeed on the merits of their case but said he would not issue a court order until they corrected a punctuation error in their legal filing.

“I am not trying to be petty here, but it is a big deal. That semicolon is a big deal,” Warren told attorneys, according to an account by Associated Press.

In documents filed with the court, the Proposition 22 Legal Defense and Education Fund had requested a court order that would force the city “cease and desist issuing marriage licenses to and/or solemnizing marriages of same-sex couples; to show cause before this court.”

“The way you’ve written this it has a semicolon where it should have the word ‘or’,” the judge said. “I don’t have the authority to issue it under these circumstances.”

Comrade! [08:11 AM]
Welcome to Electrolite's comments section.
Hard-Hitting Moderator: Teresa Nielsen Hayden.

Comments on Upholding standards.:

Adrian ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 08:23 AM:

So nice to see the power of copyediting elevated to high office and used for good. Somewhere, I expect James Warren's English teachers are very proud.

Jo Walton ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 09:44 AM:

James Warren for the Supreme Court now!

BSD ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 10:49 AM:

Notably, Marbury v. Madison is also considered to, in certain parts of its decision, turn upon a semicolon.

Jed Hartman ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 12:12 PM:

What I haven't seen discussed anywhere is whether the judge is standing on formality and insisting on correct written English, or whether the legal meaning of the phrase is significantly changed by the semicolon to the point that if the judge acted on it there would be legal problems.

It seems to me that there are punctuation and grammar errors in a lot of legal documents (especially in contracts, where I see them all the time, but maybe contract law is different); on the other hand, there are certainly plenty of situations where replacing "or" with a semicolon drastically changes the meaning.

I can't tell, even looking at the phrase in question, whether the situation at hand is a case of "the meaning is obvious to everyone involved, but the judge is being a stickler for correctness," or whether it's more like "if the judge acted on it as written, it would be a much broader order than is legally reasonable."

Anyone know for sure?

NelC ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 12:31 PM:

To this layman's eye, the semicolon looks like it could stand-in for "and", which would make a nonsense of the sentence, I think: the city should show cause for ceasing and desisting? I guess the judge is using his professional eye to figure out what these people think they meant, and gently helping them. As it is his duty to do, alas.

On the other hand, if it gives the forces of light another 24 hours to muster their resources against these busybodies--you understand that I'm thinking stronger words, right?--then a faint hurrah.

BTW, what does breaking up marriages have to do with legal defence and, um, education?

Jeremy Osner ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 01:23 PM:

I immediately thought of you and Teresa when I saw this story....

Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 01:55 PM:

Yeah, it's a list semicolon. The order would require them to BOTH C&D AND show cause, which is absurd, and also (not by accident) gives them no alternative but to C&D.

What I don't understand about this whole thing is what gives these assholes (I'm also thinking stronger words) any standing at all to file such motions? How can they claim that any ox, anywhere, is being gored by this? No one has ever explained that to me.

Carlos ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 02:17 PM:

It's because of the cooties, you see. Flaming gay cooties marching down our streets, grabbing our children and climbing up the Empire State Building, only to fall and die and be turned into a Tom Hanks movie. And really, wasn't Castaway enough? Wasn't it?

C.

Michael ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 02:18 PM:

They don't claim than any ox is being gored. They claim that a potential ox may potentially be gored in the same state at the time these things are occurring. And that it can't possibly be the fault of the spear doing the goring.

Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 02:20 PM:

Passing on the core of a comment in rec.arts.sf.fandom...

Different States have different standards on who has standing to bring a case.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 02:46 PM:

Speaking as someone who collects semicolons, this story makes me happy.

Xopher's right. The grammar might be clearer if the LATimes had been more careful about their quoted material. I strongly suspect that "cease" is an infinitive, obscured by being cut in half:

"a court order that would force the city '[to] cease and desist issuing marriage licenses to and/or solemnizing marriages of same-sex couples; to show cause before this court.'"
If my guess is correct, that semicolon renders indeterminate the relationship between the phrases to either side of it. It might or might not mean and, or or, or something else altogether. The judge is right to refuse it.

BetNoir ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 03:53 PM:

Never underestimate the mighty power of the small semicolon.

LizardBreath ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 04:04 PM:

I can't tell, even looking at the phrase in question, whether the situation at hand is a case of "the meaning is obvious to everyone involved, but the judge is being a stickler for correctness," or whether it's more like "if the judge acted on it as written, it would be a much broader order than is legally reasonable."

As a practicing litigator, this looks to me as if the judge is pulling a stunt to indicate his sympathy with the gay marriage proponents. The normal thing for a judge to do, if the semicolon were important, would be to handwrite in the correction and sign the order.

I'm on the same side as the judge, and I like the stunt, but it isn't normal concern for correctness or even hyper-pickiness; it looks to me as if he's doing something genuinely unusual to display his personal position on gay marriage without actually disobeying the governing state law.

julia ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 04:36 PM:

The sad thing is that although they refused to stop the marriages, most of the headlines said Judge urges Mayor to stop marriages.

Well, yes he did, and it should definitely be in the story. Didnt he do something else newsworthy?

aha ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 04:40 PM:

Were I a Doctor of English, I'd call this a semicolonoscopy.

aha ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 05:03 PM:

It never makes logical sense to use a semicolon where you mean “or”, except in cases where the original statement is so absurd that it makes more sense with the semicolon, thus:

“You’re with us; you’re with the terrorists”

Jonathan Vos Post ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 06:10 PM:

There's the famous hard-boiled fiction description (extra credit if you can identify the author, whom I slightly paraphrase):

The bullet made a period in his belly. And then came a comma of blood."

To which another author appended:

"Now the victim had only a semicolon."

Yesterday, a couple of miles from where I live, a professor was stabbed to death in her home, and the killer then decapitated her and left the head in a fireplace. The presumed killer then stripped naked and flung himself off an overpass, and was quickly dead when a big-rig smashed him.

The professor teaches at the school where my son matriculates.

Life and death, and lawyers. Semicolons don't kill people; people kill people.

Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 06:12 PM:

Jonathan, you're in shock. Talk to somebody, please.

aha ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 06:47 PM:

Jonathan,
Moral of the story: Semicolons don't kill people, but watch out for the semi.

aha ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 06:59 PM:

…and the slash, too vigorously applied.

Robert L ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 07:27 PM:

Jonathan: Don't recognize it, but sounds a lot like Spillane.

Mr Ripley ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 09:58 PM:

I teach Freshman Composition. I have an intestinal resection. This incident --including PNH's response to it-- made my day for those reasons, along with many others.

bad Jim ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2004, 11:44 PM:

Is it now only a legend that a mistaken semicolon in a FORTRAN program caused the loss of the first Mariner mission to Venus?

Mary Kay ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2004, 03:09 AM:

I have always liked the semicolon; I tend to use it more than most people. Now I like it even more. This is almost enough to make me regret leaving the BayArea, that this wonderful stuff is going on there and I can't say I live there anymore.

MKK

Lois Fundis ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2004, 04:06 AM:

Just thought I'd point out, for those who might like to see the famous semicolon in context, that the complaint is at http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/documents/hdocs/docs/glrts/ccfsf21304cmp.pdf

And the mayor's letter to the county clerk about gender-free marriage licenses, which started the current hoohaw, is at http://news.findlaw.com/legalnews/documents/hdocs/docs/glrts/sfmayor21004ltr.html

rea ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2004, 11:22 AM:

"What I haven't seen discussed anywhere is whether the judge is standing on formality and insisting on correct written English, or whether the legal meaning of the phrase is significantly changed by the semicolon to the point that if the judge acted on it there would be legal problems."

The usual formula for an order like this is, "do what the court tells you, or appear and show cause why you should not be punished for contempt of court." An order saying, "do what the court tells you, AND appear and show cause why you should not be punished for contempt of court" makes no sense.

It's like being held up by a highwayman whose demand is, "Your money AND your life!"

marna ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2004, 03:43 PM:

I was in SF on Valentine's Day. (pictures above if you want them)

My friend Robert called this one correctly: maximum nitpickery, bureaucracy, inefficiency, yak-shaving and all around etcetera.

Two of my great loves. Correct grammar and Uncivil Obedience, BABY!

Debbie Notkin ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2004, 05:32 PM:

Am I the only gay-supporting punctuation-loving person in the whole country to be skeptical about this? In one sense, I'm all for it, and absolutely delighted. In another, I keep wondering how I'd feel if a Republican judge delayed for two weeks a ruling that I really cared about and that he said he thought was the correct ruling because of a misplaced semicolon, when he acknowledged clearly that he knew what the pleading meant.

I think this is exactly a stunt, and more humorous than it is laudable. And I think it's more worthy of the infamous and ubiquitous Them than it is of the ineffable Us.