Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Isabel fitz John

Female


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Isabel fitz John (daughter of John fitz Geoffrey and Isabel le Bigod).

    Isabel married Robert de Vipont Aft 19 Nov 1242. Robert (son of John de Vipont and Sybil de Ferrers) was born Abt 1234, of Appleby, Westmorland, England; died Bef 7 Jun 1264. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. Isabel de Vipont was born Abt 1248, of Appleby, Westmorland, England; died 1291; was buried , Shap Abbey, Westmorland, England.

Generation: 2

  1. 2.  John fitz Geoffrey was born Abt 1205, of Shere, Surrey, England (son of Geoffrey fitz Peter and Aveline de Clare); died 23 Nov 1258.

    Notes:

    "Sheriff of Yorkshire 1234. Admitted to the Privy Council 1237; Chief Justice of the Forests 1241; Seneschal of Gascony 1243; Justiciar of Ireland 1245." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    John married Isabel le Bigod Bef 12 Apr 1234. [Group Sheet]


  2. 3.  Isabel le Bigod (daughter of Hugh II le Bigod and Maud Marshal).
    Children:
    1. Maud fitz John died 16 Apr 1301; was buried 7 May 1301, Friars Minor, Worcester, Worcestershire, England.
    2. 1. Isabel fitz John
    3. Avelina fitz John died Abt 20 May 1274; was buried , Dunmow Priory, Little Dunmow, Essex, England.
    4. Joan fitz John died Between 25 Feb 1303 and 26 May 1303.


Generation: 3

  1. 4.  Geoffrey fitz Peter was born , of Pleshy, Essex, England (son of Peter de Ludgershall and Maud); died 14 Oct 1213; was buried , Shouldham Priory, Norfolk, England.

    Notes:

    Earl of Essex. Chief Justiciar of England from 1198 to his death.

    Chief Forester; Sheriff of Northamptonshire 1184-89, 1191-94; Sheriff of Essex and Hertfordshire 1190-93; Constable of Hertford Castle; Sheriff of Staffordshire 1198; Sheriff of Yorkshire 1198-1200, 1202-4; Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire 1199-1204; Sheriff of Westmorland 1199-1200; Sheriff of Hampshire 1201-4; Sheriff of Shropshire 1201-4.

    He was raised in the remarkable household of his uncle, the justiciar of England Ranulph de Glanville, along with, among others, the future king John, and the Walter brothers, nephews of Glanville's wife Bertha de Valognes. Theobald Walter would become chief butler of England and Ireland and the founder of enduring lordships in Munster and Leinster. Hubert Walter would become archbishop of Canterbury, Geoffrey's predecessor as justiciar of England, and then -- after Geoffrey succeeded him as justiciar -- Chancellor of England.

    Geoffrey married Aveline de Clare Bef 29 May 1205. Aveline (daughter of Roger de Clare) was born Abt 1172; died Between 22 Nov 1220 and 4 Jun 1225. [Group Sheet]


  2. 5.  Aveline de Clare was born Abt 1172 (daughter of Roger de Clare); died Between 22 Nov 1220 and 4 Jun 1225.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 1225
    • Alternate death: Bef 4 Jun 1225

    Children:
    1. Hawise fitz Geoffrey died Bef 1243.
    2. Cecily fitz Geoffrey
    3. 2. John fitz Geoffrey was born Abt 1205, of Shere, Surrey, England; died 23 Nov 1258.

  3. 6.  Hugh II le Bigod (son of Roger II le Bigod and Ida de Tony); died Bef 18 Feb 1225.

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Hereditary Warden of Romford.

    Magna Carta surety.

    Hugh married Maud Marshal 1207. Maud (daughter of William Marshal and Isabel de Clare) was born 1192; died 27 Mar 1248; was buried , Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. [Group Sheet]


  4. 7.  Maud Marshal was born 1192 (daughter of William Marshal and Isabel de Clare); died 27 Mar 1248; was buried , Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 29 Mar 1248
    • Alternate death: Between 1 Apr 1248 and 7 Apr 1248

    Notes:

    Countess of Norfolk and Surrey.

    "Which Maud in July 1246, as senior coh. of her brother Walter, late Earl of Pembroke, was allowed the office of Marshal." [Complete Peerage]

    Children:
    1. 3. Isabel le Bigod
    2. Ralph le Bigod was born Aft 1208, of Stockton, Norfolk, England; died Bef 1260.
    3. Hugh III le Bigod was born Abt 1215, of Bosham, Sussex, England; died Bef 7 May 1266.


Generation: 4

  1. 8.  Peter de Ludgershall was born , of Cherhill, Wiltshire, England; died Bef 1165, Winchester, Hampshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 1198

    Notes:

    Also called Piers de Lutegareshale.

    Died as a lay monk at Winchester.

    Peter married Maud. [Group Sheet]


  2. 9.  Maud

    Notes:

    Ancestral Roots calls her "Maud de Mandeville", and Complete Peerage's foldout chart of the earls of Essex (volume 5, between pages 116 and 117) places her in a way that can be, but shouldn't be, read as suggesting that she was a daughter of Geoffrey de Mandeville, Earl of Essex, d. 1144.

    Todd A. Farmerie, 11 Jun 2002, soc.genealogy.medieval:

    This is the case I had in mind the other day, of a connection almost certainly wrong, probably drawn from other secondary sources assumed to be reliable, while these in turn were derived from the chart of the Earls of Essex in CP. In this chart, Maud is placed under a horizontal line connecting Geoffrey's children, but is not connected to that line. This placement was certainly done solely for the purposes of graphical arrangement, and was never intended to display relationship. However, as far as I know, no one has ever published this "correction".

    What has been published are studies of Geoffrey Fitz Piers, son of "Peter de Ludgershall" and "Matilda". These follow in detail the manipulations that Henry II took to ensure that the Mandeville birthright, represented by Beatrice de Say, grand-niece of Geoffrey, Earl of Essex, came to his favorite. This man, Geoffrey Fitz Piers, was specifically said by a contemporary chronicler to be of insubstantial origins. Now if Geoffrey Fitz Piers was maternal grandson of Earl Geoffrey, and nephew of the recently deceased Earl William de Mandeville, then he would neither have been of lowly origins, nor would Henry have had to manipulate the status of the Say heiress in order to justify Geoffrey coming into the Mandeville inheritance -- he would have been the legal heir. Simply put, this connection is wrong on so many levels, that it would require a higher burden of proof than for a connection that does not have so many strikes against it.

    Children:
    1. 4. Geoffrey fitz Peter was born , of Pleshy, Essex, England; died 14 Oct 1213; was buried , Shouldham Priory, Norfolk, England.

  3. 10.  Roger de Clare was born 1116, Tunbridge Castle, Kent, England (son of Richard fitz Gilbert de Clare and Alice of Chester); died 1173; was buried 1173, Stoke by Clare Priory, Suffolk, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Aft 1115, of Clare, Herefordshire, England

    Notes:

    Also called Roger Fitz Richard. 2nd Earl of Hertford, but generally styled Earl of Clare.

    Children:
    1. Richard de Clare was born Abt 1153, of Clare, Suffolk, England; died Between 30 Oct 1217 and 28 Nov 1217.
    2. 5. Aveline de Clare was born Abt 1172; died Between 22 Nov 1220 and 4 Jun 1225.

  4. 12.  Roger II le Bigod was born , of Framlingham, Suffolk, England (son of Hugh I le Bigod and Juliana de Vere); died Bef 2 Aug 1221.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Bef 1140, Thetford, Norfolk, England
    • Alternate birth: Abt 1150

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Privy Councillor; Keeper of Hertford Castle 1191; Judge in the King's Court 1195, 1196, 1199, 1202; Chief Judge in the King's Court 1197; Warden of Romford Forest 1200.

    Magna Carta surety.

    Edward Maunde Thompson, in the Dictionary of National Biography (1886):

    BIGOD, ROGER (d. 1221), second Earl of Norfolk, was son of Hugh, first earl [q. v.] On the death of his father in 1176, he and his stepmother, Gundreda, appealed to the king on a dispute touching the inheritance, the countess pressing the claims of her own son. Henry thereupon seized the treasures of Earl Hugh into his own hands, and it seems that during the remainder of this reign Roger had small power, even if his succession was allowed. His position, however, was not entirely overlooked. He appears as a witness to Henry's award between the kings of Navarre and Castile on 16 March 1177, and in 1186 he did his feudal service as steward in the court held at Guildford.

    On Richard's succession to the throne, 3 Sept. 1189, Bigod was taken into favour. By charter of 27 Nov. the new king confirmed him in all his honours, in the earldom of Norfolk, and in the stewardship of the royal household, as freely as Roger, his grandfather, and Hugh, his father, had held it. He was next appointed one of the ambassadors to Philip of France to arrange for the crusade, and during Richard's absence from England on that expedition he supported the king's authority against the designs of Prince John. On the pacification of the quarrel between the prince and the chancellor, William Longchamp, bishop of Ely, on 28 July 1191, Bigod was put into possession of the castle of Hereford, one of the strongholds surrendered by John, and was one of the chancellor's sureties in the agreement. In April 1193 he was summoned with certain other barons and prelates to attend the chancellor into Germany, where negotiations were being carried on to effect Richard's release from captivity; and in 1194, after the surrender of Nottingham to the king, he was present in that city at the great council held on 30 March. At Richard's re-coronation, 17 April, he assisted in bearing the canopy. In July or August of the same year he appears as one of the commissioners sent to York to settle a quarrel between the archbishop and the canons.

    After Richard's return home, Bigod's name is found on the records as a justiciar, fines being levied before him in the fifth year of that king's reign, and from the seventh onwards. He also appears as a justice itinerant in Norfolk. After Richard's death, Bigod succeeded in gaining John's favour, and in the first years of his reign continued to act as a judge. In October 1200 he was one of the envoys sent to summon William of Scotland to do homage at Lincoln, and was a witness at the ceremony on 22 Nov. following; but at a later period he appears to have fallen into disgrace, and was imprisoned in 1213. In the course of the same year, however, he was released and apparently restored to favour, as he accompanied the king to Poitou in February 1214, and about the same time compounded by a fine of 2,000 marks for the service of 120 knights and all arrears off scutages. Next year he joined the confederate barons in the movement which resulted in the grant of Magna Charta on 15 June 1215, and was one of the twenty-five executors, or trustees, of its provisions. He was consequently included in the sentence of excommunication which Innocent III soon afterwards declared against the king's opponents, and his lands were cruelly harried by John's troops in their incursions into the eastern counties.

    After the accession of Henry III, Bigod returned to his allegiance, and his hereditary right to the stewardship of the royal household was finally recognised at the council of Oxford on 1 May 1221. But before the following August he died. He was succeeded by his eldest son, Hugh, as third earl, who, however, survived him only four years.

    Roger married Ida de Tony Abt 25 Dec 1181. [Group Sheet]


  5. 13.  Ida de Tony (daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester).

    Notes:

    Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

    While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

    Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

    [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

    For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

    As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

    For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

    William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

    Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

    A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

    Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

    Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

    As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

    In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

    An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

    I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

    I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

    Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

    Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

    I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

    Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

    Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

    From: mississippienne@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

    [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

    I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

    Children:
    1. Margaret le Bigod
    2. 6. Hugh II le Bigod died Bef 18 Feb 1225.
    3. Mary le Bigod

  6. 14.  William Marshal was born Abt 1146 (son of John fitz Gilbert and Sybil de Salisbury); died 14 May 1219, Caversham, Oxfordshire, England; was buried , Temple Church, London, England.

    Notes:

    Also spelled William le Mareschal. Earl of Pembroke.

    Hereditary Marshal of England; Sheriff of Gloucestershire 1189-94; Sheriff of Sussex 1193-1208; Warden of the Forest of Dean and Constable of St. briavels Castle 1194-1206; Constable of Lillebonne 1202; Protector and Regent of the Kingdom 1216-19; and, in right of his wife, Earl of Pembroke and Striguil and Lord of Leinster. Advisor to King John at Runnymede.

    Wikipedia:

    "William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke [...], also called William the Marshal (Norman French: Williame le Mareschal; Anglo-Norman: Guillaume le Marechal), was an English (or Anglo-Norman) soldier and statesman. Stephen Langton eulogized him as the 'best knight that ever lived.' He served four kings -- Henry II, Richard I, John, and Henry III -- and rose from obscurity to become a regent of England for the last of the four, and so one of the most powerful men in Europe. Before him, the hereditary title of 'Marshal' designated head of household security for the king of England; by the time he died, people throughout Europe (not just England) referred to him simply as 'the Marshal'. He received the title of 1st Earl of Pembroke through marriage during the second creation of the Pembroke Earldom."

    William married Isabel de Clare Aug 1189, London, England. Isabel (daughter of Richard "Strongbow" fitz Gilbert and Eve of Leinster) was born 1173; died 7 Mar 1220; was buried , Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. [Group Sheet]


  7. 15.  Isabel de Clare was born 1173 (daughter of Richard "Strongbow" fitz Gilbert and Eve of Leinster); died 7 Mar 1220; was buried , Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales.
    Children:
    1. Eve Marshal died Between Jan 1242 and 1246.
    2. Joan Marshal died Bef Nov 1234.
    3. Walter Marshal died 24 Nov 1245, Goodrich Castle, Herefordshire, England.
    4. 7. Maud Marshal was born 1192; died 27 Mar 1248; was buried , Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales.
    5. Isabel Marshal was born 9 Oct 1200, Pembroke, Pembrokeshire, Wales; died 17 Jan 1240, Berkhamsted, Hertfordshire, England; was buried , Beaulieu Abbey, Hampshire, England.
    6. Sybil Marshal was born Abt 1204; died Bef 1238.