Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Ida de Tony

Female


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  • Name Ida de Tony  [1, 2
    Gender Female 
    Person ID I683  Ancestry of PNH, TNH, and others
    Last Modified 24 Apr 2018 

    Father Ralph de Tony,   b. Abt 1140, of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 1162  (Age ~ 22 years) 
    Mother Margaret of Leicester,   b. Abt 1125,   d. Aft 1185  (Age ~ 61 years) 
    Married Aft 1155 
    Family ID F6386  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 1 Roger II le Bigod,   b. of Framlingham, Suffolk, England Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. Bef 2 Aug 1221 
    Married Abt 25 Dec 1181  [3, 4
    Children 
     1. Margaret le Bigod
     2. Hugh II le Bigod,   d. Bef 18 Feb 1225
     3. Mary le Bigod
    Last Modified 23 Jan 2016 
    Family ID F5762  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 2 Henry II, King of England,   b. 4 Mar 1133, Le Mans, Maine, Pays de la Loire, France Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 6 Jul 1189, Chinon, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age 56 years) 
    Children 
     1. William I Longespée,   b. 1170,   d. Abt 1225  (Age 55 years)
    Last Modified 2 Jul 2015 
    Family ID F2858  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

  • Notes 
    • Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

      While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

      Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

      From: Douglas Richardson
      Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
      Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

      [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

      For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

      As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

      For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

      William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

      Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

      A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

      From: Douglas Richardson
      Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
      Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

      Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

      Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

      As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

      In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

      An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

      I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

      I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

      Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

      Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

      I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

      Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

      Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

      From: mississippienne@gmail.com
      Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
      Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

      [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

      I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

  • Sources 
    1. [S145] Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, by Frederick Lewis Weis and Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. 8th edition, William R. Beall & Kaleen E. Beall, eds. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2004, 2006, 2008.

    2. [S1526] The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, Wife of Reverend John Owsley, Generations 1-15, Fourth Preliminary Edition by Ronny O. Bodine and Bro. Thomas Spalding, Jr. 2013., first name only.

    3. [S142] Royal Ancestry, by Douglas Richardson. Kimball G. Everingham, ed. 2013.

    4. [S72] Chris Phillips, Some Corrections and Additions to The Complete Peerage.