Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Radulf II de Tosny

Male Abt 955 - Aft 1023  (~ 69 years)


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Radulf II de Tosny was born about 955 in Tosny, Normandy, France; died after 1023.

    Notes:

    Seigneur de Tosny.

    Radulf married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 2. (Unknown son of Radulf II de Tosny)  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1023.
    2. 3. Roger I de Tosny  Descendancy chart to this point was born between 985 and 995; died between 1038 and 1043; was buried in Abbey of St. Pierre de Castillon, Conches-en-Ouche, Eure, France.


Generation: 2

  1. 2.  (Unknown son of Radulf II de Tosny) Descendancy chart to this point (1.Radulf1) died in 1023.

    (Unknown married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 4. Robert de Tosny  Descendancy chart to this point died about 1093; was buried in Belvoir Priory, Belvoir, Leicestershire, England.

  2. 3.  Roger I de Tosny Descendancy chart to this point (1.Radulf1) was born between 985 and 995; died between 1038 and 1043; was buried in Abbey of St. Pierre de Castillon, Conches-en-Ouche, Eure, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Abt 1040

    Notes:

    Also called Roger de Toeni; Roger de Conches; Roger I Hispanicus. Standard-bearer of Normandy.

    Died on a 31 May. Killed in battle with Humphrey of Vieilles, along with his sons Helbert and Helinand.

    Roger married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 5. Helbert  Descendancy chart to this point died between 1038 and 1043.
    2. 6. Helinand  Descendancy chart to this point died between 1038 and 1043.

    Roger married Godehildis before Aug 1027. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 7. Robert I de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point died about 1088 in Evesham Abbey, Evesham, Worcestershire, England; was buried in Evesham Abbey, Evesham, Worcestershire, England.
    2. 8. Radulf III de Tosny  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1030; died on 24 Mar 1102; was buried in Abbey of St. Pierre de Castillon, Conches-en-Ouche, Eure, France.
    3. 9. Adeliza de Tosny  Descendancy chart to this point was born between 1030 and 1035; died on 5 Oct 1066; was buried in Notre-Dame de Lyre Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France.


Generation: 3

  1. 4.  Robert de Tosny Descendancy chart to this point (2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died about 1093; was buried in Belvoir Priory, Belvoir, Leicestershire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1088

    Notes:

    Also called Robert de Toesni; Robert de Toeni; Robert de Todeni.

    The location of Belvoir Priory was originally in Lincolnshire, but is now in Leicestershire. "Belvoir" is pronounced "beaver."

    Robert married Adelaise. Adelaise died before 1093. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 10. Adeliza de Tosny  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1136.

  2. 5.  Helbert Descendancy chart to this point (3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died between 1038 and 1043.

    Notes:

    Elbert; Helbertus.

    Died on a 31st of May. Killed in battle alongside his brother Helinand and his father. [The Henry Project]


  3. 6.  Helinand Descendancy chart to this point (3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died between 1038 and 1043.

    Notes:

    Elinand; Elinancius.

    Died on a 31 May. Killed in battle alongside his brother Helbert and his father. [The Henry Project]


  4. 7.  Robert I de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died about 1088 in Evesham Abbey, Evesham, Worcestershire, England; was buried in Evesham Abbey, Evesham, Worcestershire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called Robert de Tosny, de Toeni. Changed his name on command of William the Conqueror, when William gave him Stafford Castle. Sheriff of Staffordshire 1072-85. Died as a monk.

    Robert married (Unknown Person Not Actually Named Avice de Clare). [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 11. Nicholas I de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point died before Aug 1138; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

  5. 8.  Radulf III de Tosny Descendancy chart to this point (3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1030; died on 24 Mar 1102; was buried in Abbey of St. Pierre de Castillon, Conches-en-Ouche, Eure, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 24 Mar 1103

    Radulf married Isabel de Montfort between 1068 and 1070. Isabel (daughter of Simon I de Montfort l'Aumary and Isabel Bardoul) died after 1123 in Haute-Bruyere Priory, near Rambouillet, Yvelines, Île-de-France, France. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 12. Ralph de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1081; died in 1126; was buried in Châtillon-les-Conches Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France.

  6. 9.  Adeliza de Tosny Descendancy chart to this point (3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born between 1030 and 1035; died on 5 Oct 1066; was buried in Notre-Dame de Lyre Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 5 Oct 1067

    Adeliza married William fitz Osbern. William (son of Osbern and Emma d'Ivry, Abbess of St. Amand) was born between 1025 and 1030; died on 20 Feb 1071 in Flanders; was buried in Notre-Dame de Cormeilles Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 13. St. William of Breteuil  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1130.
    2. 14. Emma de Breteuil  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1096 in Palestine.


Generation: 4

  1. 10.  Adeliza de Tosny Descendancy chart to this point (4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died after 1136.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Aft 1130

    Notes:

    "Keats-Rohan [...] suggests that Roger had only one wife. She also refers to a charter of of the time of Henry I (therefore 1100 or later) of Roger and Adelisa for Rochester Priory, attested by their children William, Humphrey, Gunnor and Matilda; on the hypothesis of the Complete Peerage, this would imply that the first wife survived at least until 1100, despite the suggested birth date of around 1095 for Hugh, seen as a son of the second marriage." [Chris Phillips, Some Corrections and Additions to The Complete Peerage]

    Adeliza married Roger I le Bigod. Roger was born about 1045; died on 8 Sep 1107 in Earsham, Norfolk, England; was buried in Norwich Cathedral, Norwich, Norfolk, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 15. Maud le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point died before 1139; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.
    2. 16. Cecily le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 17. Jane Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 18. Hugh I le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1095 in of Earsham, Norfolk, England; died before 9 Mar 1177; was buried in Thetford Priory, Norfolk, England.

  2. 11.  Nicholas I de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died before Aug 1138; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

    Notes:

    Sheriff of Staffordshire.

    Nicholas married Maud. Maud was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 19. Robert de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Stone, Staffordshire, England; died about 1176; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

  3. 12.  Ralph de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1081; died in 1126; was buried in Châtillon-les-Conches Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1127

    Notes:

    Alos called Raoul IV de Conches. "He came to England 1103 and being graciously received by King Henry I received his father's lands. He was an ardent supporter of the King and served with him in Normandy in 1106, where he fought at the battle of Tinchebrai, 28 Sep. He remained faithful to the King during the rebellion in Normandy, 1119." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Ralph married Alice of Northumberland in 1103. Alice (daughter of Waltheof and Judith of Lens) died after 1126. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 20. Roger de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1104 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died after 29 Sep 1158.

  4. 13.  St. William of Breteuil Descendancy chart to this point (9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died in 1130.

    Notes:

    "William of Breteuil was Benedictine abbot of Breteuil, near Beauvais, France. He rebuilt the monastery after it had been nearly destroyed by the Normans. He was the eldest son of William FitzOsbern, 1st Earl of Hereford. He was held captive and tortured by Ascelin Gouel de Perceval 'Lupus', Sire d'Yvry, until he finally granted his daughter Isabella de Breteuil's hand in marriage to him." [Wikipedia]

    Feast day: July 14.

    St. married (Unknown mistress of William de Breteuil). [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 21. Isabel de Breteuil  Descendancy chart to this point

    St. married Adelaide of Aumale. (daughter of Enguerrand and Alice of Normandy) [Group Sheet]


  5. 14.  Emma de Breteuil Descendancy chart to this point (9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died after 1096 in Palestine.

    Emma married Ralph I de Gael in 1075 in Exning, Cambridgeshire, England. Ralph (son of Ralph "The Staller") was born before 1040; died after 1096 in Palestine. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 22. Ralph II de Gael  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Montfort de Gael, Brittany, France.


Generation: 5

  1. 15.  Maud le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died before 1139; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

    Maud married William d'Aubigny. William (son of Roger d'Aubigny and Amice) was born in in of Buckenham, Norfolk, England; died in 1139; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 23. William d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Buckenham, Norfolk, England; died on 4 Oct 1176 in Waverley Abbey, Surrey, England; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

  2. 16.  Cecily le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1)

    Notes:

    Also called Cecily de Belvoir.

    Cecily married William "Brito" d'Aubeney. William (son of Main d'Aubigny and Adele de Bohun) was born in in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died after 1130. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 24. William II d'Aubeney  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died in 1167.

  3. 17.  Jane Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1)

    Jane married Richard. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 25. Roger fitz Richard  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died before 31 Dec 1177.

  4. 18.  Hugh I le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1095 in of Earsham, Norfolk, England; died before 9 Mar 1177; was buried in Thetford Priory, Norfolk, England.

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Died on pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

    Edward Maunde Thompson, in the Dictionary of National Biography (1886):

    At the time of his father's death, whom he survived some seventy years, Hugh must have been quite a young child. Little is heard of him at first, no doubt on account of his youth, but he appears as king's dapifer in 1123, and before that date he was constable of Norwich Castle and governor of the city down to 1122, when it obtained a charter from the crown. Passing the best years of his manhood in the distractions of the civil wars of Stephen and Matilda, when men's oaths of fealty sat lightly on their consciences, he appears to have surpassed his fellows in acts of desertion and treachery, and to have been never more in his element than when in rebellion. His first prominent action in history was on the death of Henry I in 1135, when he is said to have hastened to England, and to have sworn to Archbishop William Corbois that the dying king, on some quarrel with his daughter Matilda, had disinherited her, and named Stephen of Blois his successor. Stephen's prompt arrival in England settled the matter, and the wavering prelate placed the crown on his head. Hugh's reward was the earldom of Norfolk. The new king's energy at first kept his followers together, but before Whitsuntide in the next year Stephen was stricken with sickness, a lethargy fastened on him, and the report of his death was quickly spread abroad. A rising of turbulent barons necessarily followed, and Bigod was the first to take up arms. He seized and held Norwich; but Stephen, quickly recovering, laid siege to the city, and Hugh was compelled to surrender. Acting with unusual clemency, Stephen spared the traitor, who for a short time remained faithful. But in 1140 he is said to have declared for the empress, and to have stood a siege in his castle of Bungay; yet in the next year he is in the ranks of Stephen's army which fought the disastrous battle of Lincoln. In the few years which followed, while the war dragged on, and Stephen's time was fully occupied in subduing the so-called adherents of the empress, who were really fighting for their own hand, the Earl of Norfolk probably remained within his own domains, consolidating his power, and fortifying his castles, although in 1143-4 he is reported to have been concerned in the rising of Geoffrey de Mandeville. The quarrel between the king and Archbishop Theobald in 1148 gave the next occasion for Hugh to come forward; he this time sided with the archbishop, and received him in his castle of Framlingham, but joined with others in effecting a reconciliation. Five years later, in 1153, when Henry of Anjou landed to assert his claim to the throne, Bigod threw in his lot with the rising power, and held out in Ipswich against Stephen's forces, while Henry, on the other side, laid siege to Stamford. Both places fell, but in the critical state of his fortunes Stephen was in no position to punish the rebel. Negotiations were also going on between the two parties, and Hugh again escaped.

    On Henry's accession in December 1154, Bigod at once received a confirmation of his earldom and stewardship by charter issued apparently in January of the next year. The first years of the new reign were spent in restoring order to the shattered kingdom, and in breaking the power of the independent barons. It was scarcely to be expected that Hugh should rest quiet. He showed signs of resistance, but was at once put down. In 1157 Henry marched into the eastern counties and received the earl's submission. After this Hugh appears but little in the chronicles for some time; only in 1169 he is named among those who had been excommunicated by Becket. This, however, was in consequence of his retention of lands belonging to the monastery of Pentney in Norfolk. In 1173 the revolt of the young crowned prince Henry against his father, and the league of the English barons with the kings of France and Scotland in his favour, gave the Earl of Norfolk another opportunity for rebellion. He at once became a moving spirit in the cause, eager to revive the feudal power which Henry had curtailed. The honour of Eye and the custody of Norwich Castle were promised by the young prince as his reward. But the king's energy and good fortune were equal to the occasion. While he held in check his rebel vassals in France, the loyal barons in England defeated his enemies here. Robert de Beaumont, earl of Leicester (d. 1190), landing at Walton, in Suffolk, on 29 Sept. 1173, had marched to Framlingham and joined forces with Hugh. Together they besieged and took, 13 Oct., the castle of Hagenet in Suffolk, held by Randal de Broc for the crown. But Leicester, setting out from Framlingham, was defeated and taken prisoner at Fornham St. Geneviève, near Bury, by the justiciar, Richard de Lucy, and other barons, who then turned their arms against Earl Hugh. Not strong enough to fight, he opened negotiations with his assailants, and, it is said, bought them off, at the same time securing for the Flemings in his service a safe passage home. In the next year, however, he was again in the field, with the aid of the troops of Philip of Flanders, and laid siege to Norwich, which he took by assault and burned. But Henry returned to England in the summer, and straightway marched into the eastern counties; and when Hugh heard that the king had already destroyed his castle of Walton, and was approaching Framlingham, he hastened to make his submission at Laleham on 25 July, surrendering his castles, which were afterwards dismantled, and paying a fine. After these events Hugh Bigod ceases to appear in history. His death is briefly recorded under the year 1177, and is generally mentioned as occurring in the Holy Land, whither he had accompanied Philip of Flanders on a pilgrimage. It is to be observed, however, that on 1 March of that year his son Roger appealed to the king on a dispute with his stepmother, Hugh being then dead, and that the date of his death is fixed 'ante caput jejunii,' i.e. before 9 March. If then, he died in Palestine, his death must have taken place in the preceding year, 1176, to allow time for the arrival of the news in England. Henry took advantage of Roger's appeal to seize upon the late earl's treasure. Besides the vast estates which he inherited, Hugh Bigod was in receipt of the third penny levied in the county of Norfolk.

    [PNH: To that last point, note that the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says that "Hugh Bigod retained his earldom and Bungay Castle, as well as the four royal manors first granted to him in 1153, but he may have lost the right to collect the earl's third penny."]

    Hugh married Juliana de Vere. Juliana (daughter of Aubrey de Vere and Alice de Clare) died after 1185. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 26. Roger II le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Framlingham, Suffolk, England; died before 2 Aug 1221.

  5. 19.  Robert de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Stone, Staffordshire, England; died about 1176; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Between 1178 and 1185

    Notes:

    Sheriff of Staffordshire.

    Robert married Avice. Avice was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 27. Millicent de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point died before Jan 1225; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

  6. 20.  Roger de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1104 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died after 29 Sep 1158.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Abt 1160

    Notes:

    Also called Roger de Conches.

    Roger married Ida de Hainaut about 9 Aug 1138. (daughter of Baldwin III of Hainaut and Yolande von Wassenberg) [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 28. Godehilde de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point died before 1186.
    2. 29. Ralph de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1140 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in 1162.

  7. 21.  Isabel de Breteuil Descendancy chart to this point (13.St.4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1)

    Notes:

    Natural daughter of William de Bréteuil.

    Isabel married Ascelin Goel. Ascelin (son of Robert d'Ivry and Hildeburge "The Blessed" de Gallardon) was born in in of Ivry, Normandy, France; died between 1116 and 1119. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 30. William Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Ivry, Normandy, France; died before 1170.

  8. 22.  Ralph II de Gael Descendancy chart to this point (14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Montfort de Gael, Brittany, France.

    Ralph married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 31. Amice de Gael  Descendancy chart to this point died in in Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England.


Generation: 6

  1. 23.  William d'Aubigny Descendancy chart to this point (15.Maud5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Buckenham, Norfolk, England; died on 4 Oct 1176 in Waverley Abbey, Surrey, England; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 12 Oct 1176, Waverley Abbey, Surrey, England

    Notes:

    Earl of Lincoln; Earl of Arundel. Hereditary Chief Butler of England; Privy Councillor to Henry I.

    Also called William d'Albini; William "Strong Hand".

    "William d'Aubigny de Albiniaco or in the Anglo-Latin of Dugdale and other writers, de Albini, surnamed 'the strong hand,' Lord of the manor of Buckenham, Norfolk, son and heir of William D'Aubigny (died 1139), Pincerna Regis by Maud, daughter of Roger le Bigod, probably by his 2nd wife, Alice, sister and coheir of William de Tosny, Lord of Belvoir, daughter of Robert de Tosny of the same, was b. early in the reign of Henry I. On his marriage with the Queen Dowager, he acquired with her, in 1138 or 1139, the Castle and Honour of Arundel, which had been settled on her in dower, whereby it may be considered that, according to the admission of 1433, he became Earl of Arundel. There is conclusive evidence from various charters, that at, or about the time of, and probably soon after, his said marriage, he was recognised as Earl of Lincoln, and he may be assumed to have been so created in the summer of 1139. In this year he gave shelter to the Empress Maud, at Arundel Castle, but ever after adhered to Stephen. He can be shown to have very soon lost the Earldom of Lincoln, and in 1141 he attested a charter of Stephen as Earl of Sussex, (being from time to time thereafter so described, as, e.g. where he witnesses a charter to the Abbey of Barking under that name) and may be assumed to have been so created by Stephen in 1141, after that King had regained his freedom. Early in 1142, the Earldom of Lincoln had already passed to another, viz. William de Roumare. In his own later charters he is styled, and in a charter, before 1150, of the Queen Dowager to the Abbey of Reading, she styles him Earl of Chichester. He was influential in arranging the treaty of 1153, whereby the Crown continued with King Stephen for life, though the inheritance thereof was secured to Henry II. To this instrument he subscribed as "Comes Cicestrie." Henry II, by a grant undated, but supposed to have been in 1155 (the year after his accession), confirms to him as 'William, Earl of Arundel, the Castle of Arundel, with the whole honour of Arundel and all its appurtenances,' and, by the same instrument, bestows on him the third penny of the pleas of the county of Sussex unde Comes est. No doubt, however, he was more generally known as "Earl of Arundel," and as such (only) he is spoken of by his son and heir (who styles himself Earl of Sussex) in a charter to the Priory of Wymondham; and as Earl of Arundel (only) he is described in the record of his death in the Annals of Waverley. He was justly held in great esteem by Henry II, and was one of the embassy to Rome in 1163/4, and to Saxony (on the espousal of the Princess to the Duke of Saxony) in 1168. He was also in command of the Royal army in August 1173, in Normandy, against the King's rebellious sons, where he distinguished himself for his 'swiftness and velocity,' and, on 29 September following he assisted at the defeat, near Bury St. Edmunds, of the Earl of Leicester, who, with his Flemings, had invaded Suffolk. He m., in 1138 (the 3rd year of her widowhood) Adeliz, Queen Dowager of England (widow of Henry I), 1st daughter of Godefroy a? la Barbe, Duke of Lothier (i.e. Lorraine Inférieure), Count of Brabant and Louvain, by his 1st wife, Ide, daughter of Albert III, Count of Namur. His wife, the Queen Dowager, retired in 1150 to a nunnery at Afflighem, in South Brabant, where she d., and was bur. 23 April 1151, aged about 48. He survived her 25 years, and d. 12 October 1176, at Waverley Abbey, Surrey, and was bur., with his father, at Wymondham Priory, Norfolk. [Complete Peerage I:233-35, as corrected in Volume XIV.]

    "According to K.S.B. Keats-Rohan [Prosopon, no 9 (1998)], Roger le Bigod's children by Alice were born from the late 1090s onwards. If so, and if William were a grandson of the marriage, he must have been born rather later than suggested above." [Chris Phillips, Some Corrections and Additions to The Complete Peerage]

    William married Alice of Louvain, Queen Consort of England between Dec 1136 and Aug 1139. Alice (daughter of Godfrey I of Brabant and Ida of Chiny and Namur) was born about 1103; died on 25 Mar 1151 in Afflighem Abbey, Brabant, Belgium; was buried in Reading Abbey, Berkshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 32. William d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point died on 24 Dec 1193; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

  2. 24.  William II d'Aubeney Descendancy chart to this point (16.Cecily5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died in 1167.

    Notes:

    Nicknamed "Le Breton".

    William married Maud de Senlis. Maud (daughter of Robert fitz Richard and Maud de Senlis) was born about 1125; died after 1185. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 33. Maud d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1209.
    2. 34. William d'Aubeney  Descendancy chart to this point was born after 1146 in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died on 7 May 1236; was buried in Newstead, Lincolnshire, England.

  3. 25.  Roger fitz Richard Descendancy chart to this point (17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died before 31 Dec 1177.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1178

    Roger married Alice de Vere after 1144. Alice (daughter of Aubrey de Vere and Alice de Clare) was born before 1141; died after 1185. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 35. Robert fitz Roger  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Clavering, Essex, England; died in 1212.
    2. 36. Alice fitz Roger  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1190.

  4. 26.  Roger II le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Framlingham, Suffolk, England; died before 2 Aug 1221.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Bef 1140, Thetford, Norfolk, England
    • Alternate birth: Abt 1150

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Privy Councillor; Keeper of Hertford Castle 1191; Judge in the King's Court 1195, 1196, 1199, 1202; Chief Judge in the King's Court 1197; Warden of Romford Forest 1200.

    Magna Carta surety.

    Edward Maunde Thompson, in the Dictionary of National Biography (1886):

    BIGOD, ROGER (d. 1221), second Earl of Norfolk, was son of Hugh, first earl [q. v.] On the death of his father in 1176, he and his stepmother, Gundreda, appealed to the king on a dispute touching the inheritance, the countess pressing the claims of her own son. Henry thereupon seized the treasures of Earl Hugh into his own hands, and it seems that during the remainder of this reign Roger had small power, even if his succession was allowed. His position, however, was not entirely overlooked. He appears as a witness to Henry's award between the kings of Navarre and Castile on 16 March 1177, and in 1186 he did his feudal service as steward in the court held at Guildford.

    On Richard's succession to the throne, 3 Sept. 1189, Bigod was taken into favour. By charter of 27 Nov. the new king confirmed him in all his honours, in the earldom of Norfolk, and in the stewardship of the royal household, as freely as Roger, his grandfather, and Hugh, his father, had held it. He was next appointed one of the ambassadors to Philip of France to arrange for the crusade, and during Richard's absence from England on that expedition he supported the king's authority against the designs of Prince John. On the pacification of the quarrel between the prince and the chancellor, William Longchamp, bishop of Ely, on 28 July 1191, Bigod was put into possession of the castle of Hereford, one of the strongholds surrendered by John, and was one of the chancellor's sureties in the agreement. In April 1193 he was summoned with certain other barons and prelates to attend the chancellor into Germany, where negotiations were being carried on to effect Richard's release from captivity; and in 1194, after the surrender of Nottingham to the king, he was present in that city at the great council held on 30 March. At Richard's re-coronation, 17 April, he assisted in bearing the canopy. In July or August of the same year he appears as one of the commissioners sent to York to settle a quarrel between the archbishop and the canons.

    After Richard's return home, Bigod's name is found on the records as a justiciar, fines being levied before him in the fifth year of that king's reign, and from the seventh onwards. He also appears as a justice itinerant in Norfolk. After Richard's death, Bigod succeeded in gaining John's favour, and in the first years of his reign continued to act as a judge. In October 1200 he was one of the envoys sent to summon William of Scotland to do homage at Lincoln, and was a witness at the ceremony on 22 Nov. following; but at a later period he appears to have fallen into disgrace, and was imprisoned in 1213. In the course of the same year, however, he was released and apparently restored to favour, as he accompanied the king to Poitou in February 1214, and about the same time compounded by a fine of 2,000 marks for the service of 120 knights and all arrears off scutages. Next year he joined the confederate barons in the movement which resulted in the grant of Magna Charta on 15 June 1215, and was one of the twenty-five executors, or trustees, of its provisions. He was consequently included in the sentence of excommunication which Innocent III soon afterwards declared against the king's opponents, and his lands were cruelly harried by John's troops in their incursions into the eastern counties.

    After the accession of Henry III, Bigod returned to his allegiance, and his hereditary right to the stewardship of the royal household was finally recognised at the council of Oxford on 1 May 1221. But before the following August he died. He was succeeded by his eldest son, Hugh, as third earl, who, however, survived him only four years.

    Roger married Ida de Tony about 25 Dec 1181. (daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester) [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 37. Margaret le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 38. Hugh II le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point died before 18 Feb 1225.
    3. 39. Mary le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point

  5. 27.  Millicent de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (19.Robert5, 11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died before Jan 1225; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

    Millicent married Hervey Bagot before 1193. Hervey died before 25 Aug 1214; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 40. William de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1258.
    2. 41. Hervey de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Stafford, Staffordshire, England; died before 12 May 1237; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

  6. 28.  Godehilde de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died before 1186.

    Notes:

    Also called Godeheut, Godehold.

    Godehilde married William de Mohun. William (son of William de Mohun and Agnes de Gant) was born in in of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England; died in 1176. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 42. William de Mohun  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1156 in of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England; died in Oct 1193.

  7. 29.  Ralph de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1140 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in 1162.

    Notes:

    Also called Ralph de Conches.

    Ralph married Margaret of Leicester after 1155. Margaret (daughter of Robert of Meulan and Amice de Gael) was born about 1125; died after 1185. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 43. Roger de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in Jan 1209.
    2. 44. Ida de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point

  8. 30.  William Lovel Descendancy chart to this point (21.Isabel5, 13.St.4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Ivry, Normandy, France; died before 1170.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 1196

    Notes:

    "He joined the rebellion of his brother-in-law Waleran, Count of Meulan, in 1123, and took part in the unsuccessful attempt to relieve the castle of Vatteville in March 1124, but shortly after escaped from the battle of Bourgthéroulde, where the rebels were defeated. Later in the same year he made his peace with the King, and thereafter received considerable grants of land in England. A writ of Geoffrey, Duke of Normandy, is addressed to him between 1144 and 1150, and in 1150-1151 he witnessed at Rouen the charter of Henry, Duke of Normandy, for the town of Rouen. In 1153 his lands in Normandy and, those of his brother, Roger le Bègue, were overrun, and laid waste by Simon de Montfort, Count of Evreux. At some time before 1162 he, with his wife and son Waleran, gave to the abbey of Haute-Bruyère three modii of meal from the mills of his castle of Ivry." [Complete Peerage]

    William married Maud of Meulan. Maud (daughter of Robert of Meulan and Isabel de Vermandois) died after 1189. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 45. William Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Minster Lovel, Oxfordshire, England; died before 1213.

  9. 31.  Amice de Gael Descendancy chart to this point (22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died in in Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called Amice de Montfort.

    She died as a nun in Nuneaton Priory. Complete Peerage says she died after 1168. Royal Ancestry says she died on a 31 August, year uncertain.

    Amice married Robert of Meulan after Nov 1120. Robert (son of Robert of Meulan and Isabel de Vermandois) was born in 1104 in Meulan, Ile-de-France, France; died on 5 Apr 1168; was buried in Leicester Abbey, Leicester, Leicestershire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 46. Robert de Bréteuil  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Leicester, Leicestershire, England; died in 1190; was buried in Durazzo, Greece.
    2. 47. Isabel of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1190.
    3. 48. Hawise of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point died on 24 Apr 1197.
    4. 49. Margaret of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1125; died after 1185.


Generation: 7

  1. 32.  William d'Aubigny Descendancy chart to this point (23.William6, 15.Maud5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died on 24 Dec 1193; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

    Notes:

    Earl of Arundel, also styled earl of Sussex. Hereditary Chief Butler of England; Privy Councillor; Constable of Windsor Castle 1191-3.

    According to Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans (citation details below), he was a crusader.

    "William d'Aubigny, Earl of Sussex, s. and h., n 1176/7, was confirmed in that dignity, but the Castle and Honour of Arundel having, in accordance with the policy of Henry II, been retained by the Crown, on the death of the last holder, he did not obtain restoration of them till Richard I restored them to him, 27 June 1190, when (according to the admission of 1433 abovenamed) he became Earl of Arundel. He was, however, styled Earl of Arundel before he received possession of the Castle and Honour, namely, on 18 Sep. 1189, and on 26 Nov. of the same year he witnessed King Richard's Charter as 'Will. Earl of Arundel.' He received also at the same time, the third penny of the pleas of Sussex in the precise words of the grant made to his father. In 1191 he was made Custos of Windsor Castle, and in 1194 one of the Receivers of the money raised for the King's ransom. He m. Maud, widow of Roger (de Clare), Earl of Hertford (who had d. 1173), da. and h. of James de St. Hilaire du Harcouet, by Aveline, his wife. He d. 24 Dec. 1193, and was bur. at Wymondham Priory." [Complete Peerage I:235-36]

    William married Maud de St. Hilary. Maud (daughter of James de St. Hilary du Harcourt and Aveline) was born in in of Field Dalling, Norfolk, England; died on 24 Dec 1193; was buried in Priory of Great Carbrooke, Norfolk, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 50. William d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point died on 1 Feb 1221 in Cainell, near Rome; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

  2. 33.  Maud d'Aubigny Descendancy chart to this point (24.William6, 16.Cecily5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died after 1209.

    Notes:

    Complete Peerage calls her "probably" a daughter of William d'Aubeney and Maud de Senlis.

    Maud married Gilbert of Strathearn. Gilbert (son of Ferteth and Ethen) was born before 1151; died in 1223. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 51. Robert of Strathearn  Descendancy chart to this point died between 25 Sep 1237 and 1244.

  3. 34.  William d'Aubeney Descendancy chart to this point (24.William6, 16.Cecily5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born after 1146 in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died on 7 May 1236; was buried in Newstead, Lincolnshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1 May 1236
    • Alternate death: 1 May 1238, Uffington, Lincolnshire, England

    Notes:

    Magna Carta surety. Sheriff of Rutland 1195; Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire 1197; Sheriff of Warwickshire and Leicestershire 1197; Governor of Rochester Castle. He was buried at Newstead, but his heart was interred at Belvoir Priory, Leicestershire.

    From Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans (citation details below):

    Having been forced to give his son to King John as a hostage in 1201, he was a member of the moderate or middle section of the baronage in the conflict between King John and the barons, remaining in attendance on the king until going over to the extreme party upon their taking possession of London on 24 May 1215. Going with them to Runnymede, he was elected a Magna Carta surety in 1215, and then withdrew to Belvoir. Although he was excommunicated by name by the Pope, along with de Quency and Mowbray, as a result of Runnymede, he refused to attend the Hounslow tournament on 6 July 1215.

    He was prevailed upon to return to service in the fall, and was placed in charge of Rochester, but was forced to surrender it to John after a gallant defense lasting from 11 Oct. to 30 Nov. 1215, and was thrown into prison, narrowly escaping hanging.

    In 1216, upon payment of a fine of 6,000 marks [£4000], he was released and regained his lands. He did homage to King Henry III, was entrusted with Sleaford Castle and a command at the battle of Lincoln of 19 May 1217, which earned him high favor. In 1219 and 1225 he served again as an itinerant justice.

    William married Margary de Umfreville. Margary (daughter of Odinel de Umfreville and Alice de Lucy) died before 1198. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 52. William IV d'Aubeney  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died on 4 Sep 1242; was buried in Beauvoir Priory, Leicestershire, England.

  4. 35.  Robert fitz Roger Descendancy chart to this point (25.Roger6, 17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Clavering, Essex, England; died in 1212.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: of Warkworth, Northumberland, England
    • Alternate death: Bef 22 Nov 1214
    • Alternate death: Bef 22 Dec 1214

    Notes:

    Also called Robert de Warkworth. Sheriff of Norfolk from Michaelmas 1190 to Easter 1194, and again from Michaelmas 1197 to Easter 1200. Friend and counselor of King John.

    Robert married Margaret de Chesney. Margaret (daughter of William de Chesney and Gila) was born in in of Horsford, Norfolk, England; died in 1230. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 53. Alice fitz Robert  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died before 12 Apr 1225.
    2. 54. John fitz Robert  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died in 1240.

  5. 36.  Alice fitz Roger Descendancy chart to this point (25.Roger6, 17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died after 1190.

    Notes:

    Also called Alice de Vere.

    Alice married John fitz Richard. John (son of Robert fitz Eustace and Aubrey de Lisours) was born about 1145 in of Halton, Cheshire, England; died in 1190 in Acre, Palestine. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 55. Joan of Chester  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 56. Roger de Lacy  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1165 in of Halton, Runcorn, Cheshire, England; died on 1 Oct 1211; was buried in Stanlaw Abbey, Wirrall, Cheshire, England.

  6. 37.  Margaret le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1)

    Margaret married William de Hastings. William (son of William de Hastings and Maud Banastre) was born in in of Ashill, Norfolk, England; died in 1224. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 57. Henry Hastings  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1205 in of Blunham, Bedfordshire, England; died before 9 Aug 1250.

  7. 38.  Hugh II le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died before 18 Feb 1225.

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Hereditary Warden of Romford.

    Magna Carta surety.

    Hugh married Maud Marshal in 1207. Maud (daughter of William Marshal and Isabel de Clare) was born in 1192; died on 27 Mar 1248; was buried in Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 58. Isabel le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 59. Ralph le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born after 1208 in of Stockton, Norfolk, England; died before 1260.
    3. 60. Hugh III le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1215 in of Bosham, Sussex, England; died before 7 May 1266.

  8. 39.  Mary le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1)

    Mary married Ranulph fitz Robert. Ranulph (son of Robert fitz Ralph and Hawise de Glanville) was born about 1185 in of Middleham, Yorkshire, England; died before 7 Dec 1252; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 61. Ralph fitz Ranulph  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Middleham, Durham, England; died on 31 Mar 1270; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

  9. 40.  William de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (27.Millicent6, 19.Robert5, 11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died in 1258.

    William married Auda de Vernon. Auda died between 1276 and 1279. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 62. Robert de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 63. William de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1255 in of Sandon, Staffordshire, England; died after 1338.

  10. 41.  Hervey de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (27.Millicent6, 19.Robert5, 11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Stafford, Staffordshire, England; died before 12 May 1237; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

    Notes:

    With two others, he was dictator of the truce in North Wales, 1236.

    Hervey married Petronille de Ferrers before 1215. Petronille (daughter of William de Ferrers) died after 12 May 1237; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 64. Robert de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Stafford, Staffordshire, England; died before 4 Jun 1261.

  11. 42.  William de Mohun Descendancy chart to this point (28.Godehilde6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1156 in of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England; died in Oct 1193.

    Notes:

    "William de Mohun died in October 1193, perhaps abroad." [Royal Ancestry, also "The Trowbridge Ancestry", citation details below.] Some sources say Jerusalem. Contemporary records show that he made a pilgrimage there but do not clarify where he died.

    William married Lucy. Lucy died after 1201. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 65. Reynold I de Mohun  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1183 in of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England; died in 1213.

  12. 43.  Roger de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in Jan 1209.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1160

    Notes:

    Also called Roger de Tonches. Founded the nunnery of St. Giles in the Wood, Flamstead, Hertfordshire.

    "Went with Richard I on Crusade, 1191, and distinguished himself at Arsulf and fought against the Saracens at ElKhuweilfe, 1192. In 1204 he lost all of his Norman lands to the King of France." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Roger married Constance de Beaumont in 1175. Constance (daughter of Richard I de Beaumont and Lucy de l'Aigle) died after 1226. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 66. Ralph VI de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1189 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died about 29 Sep 1239 in At sea.

  13. 44.  Ida de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1)

    Notes:

    Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

    While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

    Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

    [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

    For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

    As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

    For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

    William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

    Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

    A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

    Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

    Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

    As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

    In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

    An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

    I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

    I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

    Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

    Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

    I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

    Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

    Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

    From: mississippienne@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

    [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

    I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

    Ida married Henry II, King of England. Henry (son of Geoffrey V of Anjou and Maud "The Empress") was born on 4 Mar 1133 in Le Mans, Maine, Pays de la Loire, France; died on 6 Jul 1189 in Chinon, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France; was buried in Fontévrault Abbey, near Chinon, Anjou, France. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 67. William I Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point was born in 1170; died about 1225; was buried in Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England.

    Ida married Roger II le Bigod about 25 Dec 1181. Roger (son of Hugh I le Bigod and Juliana de Vere) was born in in of Framlingham, Suffolk, England; died before 2 Aug 1221. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 68. Margaret le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 69. Hugh II le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point died before 18 Feb 1225.
    3. 70. Mary le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point

  14. 45.  William Lovel Descendancy chart to this point (30.William6, 21.Isabel5, 13.St.4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Minster Lovel, Oxfordshire, England; died before 1213.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Aft 1212

    Notes:

    Also called William D'Ivry. Joined the Third Crusade in 1190.

    William married Isabel before 1190. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 71. John Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Titchmarsh, Northamptonshire, England; died before 23 Dec 1252.

  15. 46.  Robert de Bréteuil Descendancy chart to this point (31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Leicester, Leicestershire, England; died in 1190; was buried in Durazzo, Greece.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Bef 1135
    • Alternate death: 31 Aug 1190, At sea
    • Alternate death: 31 Aug 1190, Romania

    Notes:

    Earl of Leicester. Also known as Robert de Beaumont. According to Complete Peerage, nicknamed ès Blanchemains, which translates as "white-hands".

    Steward of England and Normandy; seigneur of Bréteuil and Paci in Normandy. In 1173, he supported Prince Henry, the "young king," in his rebellion against his father Henry II, and in consequence he and his wife were imprisoned by the elder Henry from fall 1173 to fall 1174.

    Died on the way to Jerusalem. Durazzo is now the city of Durres in Albania.

    Robert married Pernel de Grandmesnil in 1155. Pernel (daughter of William de Grandmesnil) died on 1 Apr 1212. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 72. Margaret of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point died on 12 Jan 1235.
    2. 73. Amicie de Beaumont  Descendancy chart to this point died on 3 Sep 1215.

  16. 47.  Isabel of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died after 1190.

    Notes:

    Also called Isabel de Beaumont; Elizabeth.

    Isabel married Simon II de Senlis before 1138. Simon (son of Simon I de Senlis and Maud of Northumberland) was born about 1103; died in Aug 1153; was buried in St. Andrew's, Fife, Scotland. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 74. Isabel de Senlis  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1210.

  17. 48.  Hawise of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died on 24 Apr 1197.

    Notes:

    Also called Hawise de Beaumont.

    Hawise married William fitz Robert about 1150. William (son of Robert of Gloucester and Mabel fitz Robert) died on 23 Nov 1183; was buried in Kernsham Abbey, Somerset, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 75. Isabel  Descendancy chart to this point died on 14 Oct 1217.
    2. 76. Amice of Gloucester  Descendancy chart to this point died on 1 Jan 1225.

  18. 49.  Margaret of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1125; died after 1185.

    Notes:

    Also called Margaret de Beaumont.

    Margaret married Ralph de Tony after 1155. Ralph (son of Roger de Tony and Ida de Hainaut) was born about 1140 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in 1162. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 77. Roger de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in Jan 1209.
    2. 78. Ida de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point


Generation: 8

  1. 50.  William d'Aubigny Descendancy chart to this point (32.William7, 23.William6, 15.Maud5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died on 1 Feb 1221 in Cainell, near Rome; was buried in Wymondham Priory, Norfolk, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Mar 1221, near Rome
    • Alternate death: Bef 30 Mar 1221, Cainell, near Rome

    Notes:

    Earl of Arundel; Earl of Sussex. Chief Butler of England; Privy Councillor; Judge in the King's Court 1198, 1200, 1218. A King's man at Runnymede.

    Went on Crusade in 1218; was present at the siege of Damietta.

    "In the beginning he was one of King John's favourites, but he joined the baronial party opposing the King in 1216 after the sealing of the Magna Carta. According to the Barnwell Chronicle, when the barons met in London in 1216 to plan the division of England among them, they assigned to d'Aubigny the government of Lincolnshire. In 1217 he switched his support back to the young Henry III." [Leo van de Pas]

    From Complete Peerage I:236-38:

    William (d'Aubigny), Earl of Sussex, and Earl of Arundel, s. & h. He was a favorite of King John, whose concession of the Kingdom to the Pope, 15 May 1213, he witnessed, and whom he accompanied to Runnymede, 15 June 1215. (d) When, however, King John abandoned Winchester, 14 June 1216, to Louis (afterwards Louis VIII) of France, he joined that Prince, but (consistently taking the winning side) returned to his allegiance 14 July 1217, after the Royalist victory at Lincoln. Shortly afterwards he acted as Justiciar, the young King, Henry III, having restored to him his forfeited possessions. He m. Mabel, 2nd da. of Hugh (le Meschin, surnamed Kevelioc), Earl of Chester, by Bertrade, da. of Simon, Count of Evreux in Normandy. She, in her issue, was (1232) one of the four coheirs to her br. Ranulph (surnamed Blundeville), Earl of Chester. He embarked in the crusade of 1218, and was at the taking of Damietta in Nov. 12 19, but d. at Cainell, near Rome, ("quoddam oppidulum Kainel nomine") shortly before 30 Mar. 1221 (when the news reached England) and was bur. at Wynmondham Priory.

    (d) His namesake of Belvoir became one of the sureties for the King's observance of Magna Charta as 'William d'Aubigny, Sheriff of Warwick and Leicester.'

    William married Mabel of Chester. (daughter of Hugh of Chester and Bertrade de Montfort) [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 79. Isabel d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point died before 1240.
    2. 80. Nichole d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Barrow-on-Soar, Leicestershire, England; died about 1240.
    3. 81. Maud d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point died between 1238 and 1243.
    4. 82. Cecily d'Aubigny  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1260.

  2. 51.  Robert of Strathearn Descendancy chart to this point (33.Maud7, 24.William6, 16.Cecily5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) died between 25 Sep 1237 and 1244.

    Notes:

    4th Earl of Strathearn.

    "[He] was a witness to his father's charters to Inchaffray, 1199-1220, being described as s. and h. in that of 1210. He witnessed the pact made between Alexander II of Scotland and Henry III of England, in the presence of the Papal Legate at York, Sep. 1237." [Complete Peerage, citation details below]

    Robert married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 83. Annabella  Descendancy chart to this point

  3. 52.  William IV d'Aubeney Descendancy chart to this point (34.William7, 24.William6, 16.Cecily5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Belvoir, Leicestershire, England; died on 4 Sep 1242; was buried in Beauvoir Priory, Leicestershire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called William de Beauvoir.

    William married Isabel. Isabel was born about 1233; died after 1285. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 84. Isabel d'Aubeney  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1233; died on 15 Jun 1301; was buried in Newstead Priory, Lincolnshire, England.

  4. 53.  Alice fitz Robert Descendancy chart to this point (35.Robert7, 25.Roger6, 17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died before 12 Apr 1225.

    Notes:

    Also called Alice de Warkworth.

    Alice married Peter fitz Herbert after 28 Nov 1203. Peter (son of Herbert fitz Herbert and Lucy of Hereford) was born before 1183 in of Brecknock, Wales; died before 6 Jun 1235; was buried in Reading, Berkshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 85. Lucy fitz Peter  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Blaen Llyfni, Cathedine, Brecconshire, Wales; died after 29 Sep 1266.
    2. 86. Reynold fitz Peter  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Blaen Llyfni, Cathedine, Brecconshire, Wales; died on 4 May 1286.

  5. 54.  John fitz Robert Descendancy chart to this point (35.Robert7, 25.Roger6, 17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died in 1240.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 20 Feb 1241

    Notes:

    Also called John de Warkworth. Magna Carta surety. Sheriff of Norfolk 1215.

    John married Ada de Balliol. Ada (daughter of Hugh de Balliol and Cecily de Fontaines) died on 29 Jul 1251 in Stokesley, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 87. Hugh de Eure  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Stokesley, Yorkshire, England; died before 1297.
    2. 88. Cecily fitz John  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 89. Roger fitz John  Descendancy chart to this point was born after 1219 in of Warkworth, Northumberland, England; died before 22 Jun 1249 in Normandy, France.

  6. 55.  Joan of Chester Descendancy chart to this point (36.Alice7, 25.Roger6, 17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1)

    Notes:

    Also called Joan de Lacy, Joan le Grammaire.

    Joan married Peter de Brus. Peter (son of Adam II de Brus and Juetta de Arches) was born in in of Skelton, Yorkshire, England; died in 1222. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 90. Peter de Brus  Descendancy chart to this point was born before 1201 in of Skelton, Yorkshire, England; died before 15 Nov 1240.

  7. 56.  Roger de Lacy Descendancy chart to this point (36.Alice7, 25.Roger6, 17.Jane5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1165 in of Halton, Runcorn, Cheshire, England; died on 1 Oct 1211; was buried in Stanlaw Abbey, Wirrall, Cheshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Jan 1212

    Notes:

    Also called Roger of Chester, Roger Helle, Roger de Lisours.

    Hereditary Constable of Cheshire; Sheriff of Lancashire. Sheriff of York and Chester, 1204-10. Was at the storming of Acre, 1191. "His raids against the Welsh are said to have earned him the nickname 'Roger of Hell.'" [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Roger married Maud de Clare. Maud (daughter of Richard de Clare and Amice of Gloucester) died in 1213. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 91. (Unknown daughter of Roger de Lacy)  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 92. John de Lacy  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1192 in of Pontefract, Yorkshire, England; died on 22 Jul 1240; was buried in Stanlaw Abbey, Wirrall, Cheshire, England.

  8. 57.  Henry Hastings Descendancy chart to this point (37.Margaret7, 26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1205 in of Blunham, Bedfordshire, England; died before 9 Aug 1250.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1205, of Ashill, Norfolk, England

    Notes:

    Dapifer of Bury St. Edmunds. Taken prisoner at the battle of Sainte, 22 Jul 1242, and exchanged not long after.

    Henry married Ada of Huntingdon after 1224. Ada (daughter of David of Scotland and Maud of Chester) died after 2 Nov 1241. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 93. Henry de Hastings  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Ashill, Norfolk, England; died in 1268.
    2. 94. Hillary de Hastings  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1294.

  9. 58.  Isabel le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (38.Hugh7, 26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1)

    Isabel married Gilbert de Lacy. Gilbert (son of Walter de Lacy and Margaret de Briouze) was born in in of Ewyas Lacy, Herefordshire, England; died before 1230. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 95. Maud de Lacy  Descendancy chart to this point died on 11 Apr 1303.
    2. 96. Margaret de Lacy  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1256.

    Isabel married John fitz Geoffrey before 12 Apr 1234. John (son of Geoffrey fitz Peter and Aveline de Clare) was born about 1205 in of Shere, Surrey, England; died on 23 Nov 1258. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 97. Maud fitz John  Descendancy chart to this point died on 16 Apr 1301; was buried on 7 May 1301 in Friars Minor, Worcester, Worcestershire, England.
    2. 98. Isabel fitz John  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 99. Avelina fitz John  Descendancy chart to this point died about 20 May 1274; was buried in Dunmow Priory, Little Dunmow, Essex, England.
    4. 100. Joan fitz John  Descendancy chart to this point died between 25 Feb 1303 and 26 May 1303.

  10. 59.  Ralph le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (38.Hugh7, 26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born after 1208 in of Stockton, Norfolk, England; died before 1260.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 28 Jul 1260

    Ralph married Bertha de Ferrers after 1240. Bertha (daughter of William de Ferrers and Agnes of Chester) died after 10 Feb 1267; was buried in Grey Friars, Dunwich, Suffolk, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 101. John le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Stockton, Norfolk, England; died before 18 Mar 1305.

  11. 60.  Hugh III le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (38.Hugh7, 26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1215 in of Bosham, Sussex, England; died before 7 May 1266.

    Notes:

    Justiciar of England, 22 Jun 1257-1260.

    "In 1258 the Provisions of Oxford established a baronial government of which Hugh's elder brother Roger Bigod, 4th Earl of Norfolk was a leading member, and Hugh was appointed Chief Justiciar. He also had wardship of the Tower of London, and, briefly, of Dover Castle. But at the end of 1260 or in early 1261 he resigned these offices, apparently due to dissatisfaction with the new government. Thus in 1263 he joined the royalists, and was present on that side at the Battle of Lewes. That battle took place by a village called Fletching, north of Lewes. Hugh escaped but the King and his son, Prince Edward, were taken prisoner." [Wikipedia]

    Hugh married Joanne de Stuteville before 5 Feb 1244. Joanne (daughter of Nicholas II de Stuteville and Devorguilla of Galloway) died before 5 Apr 1276. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 102. Joan le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point

  12. 61.  Ralph fitz Ranulph Descendancy chart to this point (39.Mary7, 26.Roger6, 18.Hugh5, 10.Adeliza4, 4.Robert3, 2.(Unknown2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Middleham, Durham, England; died on 31 Mar 1270; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: of Middleham, Yorkshire, England

    Ralph married Anastasia de Percy. Anastasia (daughter of William de Percy and Joan Briwerre) died before 28 Apr 1272. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 103. Mary fitz Ranulph  Descendancy chart to this point died before 11 Apr 1320; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

  13. 62.  Robert de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (40.William7, 27.Millicent6, 19.Robert5, 11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1)

    Robert married Gundreda. Gundreda died about 1308. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 104. Joan de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point died before 1342.
    2. 105. Isabel de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point

  14. 63.  William de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (40.William7, 27.Millicent6, 19.Robert5, 11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1255 in of Sandon, Staffordshire, England; died after 1338.

    Notes:

    "Knighted 1275/80; Knight of the Shire for Stafford 1290, 1298, 1306, 1307/8, 1311/2, 1313, and 1318. He supported Thomas, Earl of Lancaster and was taken prisoner following the rebel defeat at the battle of Boroughbridge, 16 Mar 1322. He was imprisoned at Alton Castle whence his grandsons tried to release him. He was pardoned 19 Mar 1323. In 1328, the Sheriff of Staffordshire referred to him as 'so old and infirm.'" [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, citation details below.]

    Given by The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz as possibly, not certainly, a son of William de Stafford and Auda de Vernon.

    William married Cecily de Waure. (daughter of Robert de Waure) [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 106. William de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Bramshall, Staffordshire, England; died between 1326 and 1339.

  15. 64.  Robert de Stafford Descendancy chart to this point (41.Hervey7, 27.Millicent6, 19.Robert5, 11.Nicholas4, 7.Robert3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Stafford, Staffordshire, England; died before 4 Jun 1261.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1282

    Robert married Alice Corbet. Alice (daughter of Thomas Corbet and Isabell de Valletort) was born in in of Caus, Westbury, Shropshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 107. Nicholas de Stafford  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Stafford, Staffordshire, England; died about 1 Aug 1287 in Dryslwyn, Carmarthenshire, Wales; was buried in Stone, Staffordshire, England.

  16. 65.  Reynold I de Mohun Descendancy chart to this point (42.William7, 28.Godehilde6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1183 in of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England; died in 1213.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: 1185, of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England

    Notes:

    "He lost his estates in Normandy in 1204 for adhering to King John. He took a prominent part in the invasion of France in 1206 and accompanied King John to Ireland in 1210." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Reynold married Alice de Briwere. Alice (daughter of William de Briwerre and Beatrice de Vaux) died after 1239. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 108. Reynold II de Mohun  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1206 in of Dunster, Williton, Somerset, England; died on 20 Jan 1258 in Torre Mohun, Devon, England; was buried in Newenham Abbey, Devon, England.

  17. 66.  Ralph VI de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (43.Roger7, 29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born about 1189 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died about 29 Sep 1239 in At sea.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1190, of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England

    Notes:

    First supported king John, then went over to the rebelling barons' side. Died at sea on his way to the Holy Land.

    Ralph married Pernel de Lacy between 1232 and 1233. Pernel (daughter of Walter de Lacy and Margaret de Briouze) died after 25 Nov 1288. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 109. Margaret de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 110. Constance de Toeni  Descendancy chart to this point was born between Jul 1233 and Jan 1237; died on 11 Feb 1266.
    3. 111. Roger V de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 29 Sep 1235 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died before 12 May 1264.

  18. 67.  William I Longespée Descendancy chart to this point (44.Ida7, 29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in 1170; died about 1225; was buried in Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1175
    • Alternate birth: Between 1175 and 1180
    • Alternate birth: Abt 1176
    • Alternate death: 7 Mar 1226, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England

    Notes:

    Earl of Salisbury. Among the advisors to King John at Runnymede.

    Lieutenant of Gascony 1202; Seneschal of Avranches 1203; Constable of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports 1204-6; Sheriff of Wiltshire 1204-7, 1213-26; Lord of the Honour and Castle of Eye 1205; Cheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 1212-21; Sheriff of Shropshire and Staffordshire 1223-4; Constable of Portchester, Southampton, and Winchester Castle 1224; Keeper of the March of Wales.

    Yes, there really were two Ida de Longespees, and they were sisters. SGM post:

    From: Douglas Richardson Subject: Parentage of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT)

    There has been discussion in the past on the newsgroup regarding the placement of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the Longespée family tree. Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub FitzWalter) identifies Ida as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl of Salisbury." The William Longespée intended here is presumably William Longespée I who died in 1226, not his son, William II, who died in 1250. If so, this would give Earl William Longespée I and his wife, Ela, two adult daughters named Ida, one of whom married Walter Fitz Robert, and the other who married William de Beauchamp. Curiously Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.

    The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, as a Longespée has traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found in Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children of William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of Salisbury, including:

    "Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum") [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].

    It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is here styled Ida de Camyle in this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the Camville family.

    There are two contemporary records which prove that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The first record comes from List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer, which source contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:

    "152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide. [1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].

    Elsewhere I find that Calendar of Liberate Rolls 5 (1961): 93 likewise refers to Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, as "Ida Lungespee:"

    Date: 11 May 1162 -- "Liberate to Geoffrey de Lezinan, the king's brother, 40l. in recompense of a like sum received there of the issues of the manor of Henham [Essex] by the hands of Ida Lungespee." END OF QUOTE.

    To date to my knowledge no one has discovered Ida Longespée's maritagium, although she certainly had one in marriage. Recently I encountered a record which evidently concerns her maritagium. The record in question is a Wiltshire pleading which dates from 1249:

    "Walter son of Robert and Ida his wife, by Ida's attorney by writ of the present king, who brought an assize of novel disseisin against William Lungepeie for holdings in Scepperingge and Heniton, Farlegh' and Bidinham, have come and withdrawn by licence. It is agreed between them that Walter and Ida had put themselves utterly in William's grace for those holdings." [Reference: Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 26) (1971): 152].

    The lands involved in this lawsuit can be identified as Sheepbridge (in Swallowfield), Hinton (in Hurst), Farley [Hill] (in Swallowfield), and Diddenham (in Shinfield), all in modern Berkshire but formerly in Wiltshire. These lands were apparently held by William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela.

    VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 267-274 states that Sheepbridge "belonged with Hinton in 1236 to Ela, Countess of Salisbury." Countess Ela named here was the widow of William Longespée I. VCH's statement regarding Countess Ela's holding of these lands is based on a charter found in Calendar of Charter Rolls 1226 - 57, page 221, whereby the king confirmed a grant of Countess Ela of various lands to Lacock Abbey, in exchange for "10 l. yearly receivable ...... .of the manors of Shiperige and Henton, and the advowson of the church of Winterburn Shyreveton."

    The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=1dELAQA AIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=Calendar+Charter+Rolls+1226&hl=en&ei=M-U4TrbTFYvXiALj163DDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Calendar%20Charter%20Rolls%201226&f=false

    Countess Ela's charter is undated but surely must date from around 1236. My files notes show the following information:

    "In Feb. 1236 her son and heir, William Longespée, guaranteed her gifts to Lacock Abbey, while she agreed to surrender all her lands, rents and rights to him on 1 Nov. following. On 25 Oct. 1236 Ela, Countess of Salisbury, reached agreement with William Longespée, her first born son, that she may grant a moiety of the manor of Heddington, Wiltshire to Lacock Priory, which property fell to her on the death of Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex and Hereford. In the winter 1236 - 7 she resigned her custody of the county of Wiltshire. She subsequently entered her religious foundation at Lacock, where she took the veil before spring 1238." END OF QUOTE FROM MY FILE NOTES.

    Following Countess Ela's surrender of her lands to her son, William Longespée II, he in turn granted the four properties in question, namely Sheepbridge, Hinton, Farley, and Diddenham, to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. The date of this grant is sometime before 1239-40.

    In that year Sir Henry de la Mare was involved in a legal action concerning these four properties. A reference to this lawsuit may be found in Maitland, Bracton's Note Book 3 (1887): 286 - 287. This may be viewed at the following weblink:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=DtcQAAA AYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:LtFTiI1NIsEC&hl=en&ei=nmw5TsSXK42IsAKv3OEg&sa=X&oi=book_result &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

    So the question arises: When did Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida Longespée, acquire their interest in the four properties? The answer to that question is not exact but surely it must have dated from the time that Countess Ela of Salisbury was holding these properties and before 1 Nov. 1236 when Countess Ela surrendered all her lands, rents, and rights to her son, William Longespée II. Walter and Ida can't have acquired their interest from William Longespée II, as once his mother released her lands to him, he almost immediately conveyed these four properties to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. One of these properties, Hinton, subsequently descended to Sir Henry de la Mare's daughter and heiress, Maud, wife of Peter de Montfort, and thence to her descendants [see VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 247 - 260].

    So besides knowing that Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespée obtained their interest in the properties before 1236, what else can we know? More specifically, why would Ida claim these lands, if her brother had granted them to his seneschal?

    The answer to this question is not clear but a reasonable guess would be that these four properties were put up as Ida's maritagium when she was contracted to marry a Camville and that when the contracted Camville marriage failed to materialize or produced no issue, by the terms of the marriage contract, the lands returned to Ida's family. At that point, Ida's claim to the lands was essentially voided. This in turn would explain why Ida's brother, William Longespée II, felt free to grant these lands elsewhere to Sir Henry de la Mare.

    In summary, adequate evidence has been located which indicates that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was a Longespée. In 1249 Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida, sued William Longespée II regarding four properties then in Wiltshire, but now in Berkshire. The four properties in question were apparently part of the inheritance of Ida's mother, Countess Ela, who appears to have controlled the lands until 1236, when she released her lands to her son, William Longespée II. Ida's rights must predate 1236, as William Longespée II almost immediately conveyed these properties before 1239-40 to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. Thus William Longespée II can not have offered them as Ida's maritagium. This in turn implies that Ida Longespée was the daughter of William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela, and not William Longespée II.

    For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert:

    Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Symon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Yale.

    Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

    William married Ela of Salisbury before Sep 1197. Ela (daughter of William fitz Patrick and Eleanor de Vitré) was born about 1187; died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 112. Idonea de Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1266.
    2. 113. Stephen Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of King's Sutton, Northamptonshire, England; died before 25 Jun 1260; was buried in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England.
    3. 114. Ida Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1261.
    4. 115. William Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point was born before 12 May 1205; died on 7 Feb 1249 in Mansourah, Egypt.

  19. 68.  Margaret le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (44.Ida7, 29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1)

    Margaret married William de Hastings. William (son of William de Hastings and Maud Banastre) was born in in of Ashill, Norfolk, England; died in 1224. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 116. Henry Hastings  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1205 in of Blunham, Bedfordshire, England; died before 9 Aug 1250.

  20. 69.  Hugh II le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (44.Ida7, 29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died before 18 Feb 1225.

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Hereditary Warden of Romford.

    Magna Carta surety.

    Hugh married Maud Marshal in 1207. Maud (daughter of William Marshal and Isabel de Clare) was born in 1192; died on 27 Mar 1248; was buried in Tintern Abbey, Monmouthshire, Wales. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 117. Isabel le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 118. Ralph le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born after 1208 in of Stockton, Norfolk, England; died before 1260.
    3. 119. Hugh III le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1215 in of Bosham, Sussex, England; died before 7 May 1266.

  21. 70.  Mary le Bigod Descendancy chart to this point (44.Ida7, 29.Ralph6, 20.Roger5, 12.Ralph4, 8.Radulf3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1)

    Mary married Ranulph fitz Robert. Ranulph (son of Robert fitz Ralph and Hawise de Glanville) was born about 1185 in of Middleham, Yorkshire, England; died before 7 Dec 1252; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 120. Ralph fitz Ranulph  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Middleham, Durham, England; died on 31 Mar 1270; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

  22. 71.  John Lovel Descendancy chart to this point (45.William7, 30.William6, 21.Isabel5, 13.St.4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Titchmarsh, Northamptonshire, England; died before 23 Dec 1252.

    John married Katherine Basset before Aug 1216. Katherine (daughter of Alan Basset and Aline de Gay) died after 6 Jul 1267. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 121. John Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1222 in of Titchmarsh, Northamptonshire, England; died before 27 Sep 1287.

  23. 72.  Margaret of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (46.Robert7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died on 12 Jan 1235.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1236

    Notes:

    Or Margery. [Royal Ancestry]

    Also known as Margaret de Beaumont.

    Margaret married Saher de Quincy before 1173. Saher (son of Robert de Quincy and Orabel fitz Ness) was born in 1155 in Winchester, Hampshire, England; died on 3 Nov 1219 in Damietta, Egypt; was buried in Acre, Palestine. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 122. Robert de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1217 in London, England.
    2. 123. Hawise de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1263; was buried in Earls Colne Priory, Halstead, Essex, England.
    3. 124. Orabel de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 125. Roger de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1195; died on 25 Apr 1264.
    5. 126. Robert de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point was born before 1200 in of Wakes Colne, Essex, England; died in Aug 1257.

  24. 73.  Amicie de Beaumont Descendancy chart to this point (46.Robert7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died on 3 Sep 1215.

    Amicie married Simon IV de Montfort before Jan 1175. Simon (son of Simon de Montfort and Maud) was born about 1153; died before 18 Jul 1188. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 127. Simon V de Montfort  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1175; died on 25 Jun 1218 in Toulouse, Languedoc, France.

  25. 74.  Isabel de Senlis Descendancy chart to this point (47.Isabel7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died after 1210.

    Notes:

    Also called Isabel de St. Liz.

    Isabel married William Mauduit. William (son of William Mauduit and Alice) was born between 1130 and 1135 in of Hanslope, Buckinghamshire, England; died on 2 Oct 1194; was buried in Waverley Abbey, Surrey, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 128. Robert Mauduit  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1172 in of Hanslope, Buckinghamshire, England; died before 19 Jun 1222.

  26. 75.  Isabel Descendancy chart to this point (48.Hawise7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died on 14 Oct 1217.

    Notes:

    Also called Isabelle, Isabella, Joan, and Eleanor. Suo jure Countess of Gloucester.

    Isabel married John, King of England on 29 Aug 1189 in Marlborough, Wiltshire, England. John (son of Henry II, King of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine, Queen Consort of France; Queen Consort of England) was born about 27 Dec 1166 in Oxford, Oxfordshire, England; died on 19 Oct 1216 in Newark Castle, Newark, Nottinghamshire, England; was buried in Worcester Cathedral, Worcestershire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Isabel married Hubert de Burgh in Sep 1217. Hubert (son of Walter de Burgh and Alice) was born about 1170; died in 1243; was buried in Black Friars, Holborn, London, England. [Group Sheet]


  27. 76.  Amice of Gloucester Descendancy chart to this point (48.Hawise7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) died on 1 Jan 1225.

    Notes:

    Also called Amice fitz William.

    According to RA, she was not "recognized" before her death as "Countess of Gloucester," despite CP's assertion to this effect. All contemporary charters and other documents involving her refer to her as countess of Clare, i.e., Hertford.

    Amice married Richard de Clare about 1180. Richard (son of Roger de Clare and Maud de St. Hilary) was born about 1153 in of Clare, Suffolk, England; died between 30 Oct 1217 and 28 Nov 1217. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 129. Maud de Clare  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1213.
    2. 130. Hawise de Clare  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1234.
    3. 131. Gilbert de Clare  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1180; died on 25 Oct 1230 in Penrose, Brittany, France; was buried in Tewkesbury Abbey, Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England.

  28. 77.  Roger de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (49.Margaret7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1) was born in in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in Jan 1209.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1160

    Notes:

    Also called Roger de Tonches. Founded the nunnery of St. Giles in the Wood, Flamstead, Hertfordshire.

    "Went with Richard I on Crusade, 1191, and distinguished himself at Arsulf and fought against the Saracens at ElKhuweilfe, 1192. In 1204 he lost all of his Norman lands to the King of France." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Roger married Constance de Beaumont in 1175. Constance (daughter of Richard I de Beaumont and Lucy de l'Aigle) died after 1226. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 132. Ralph VI de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1189 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died about 29 Sep 1239 in At sea.

  29. 78.  Ida de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (49.Margaret7, 31.Amice6, 22.Ralph5, 14.Emma4, 9.Adeliza3, 3.Roger2, 1.Radulf1)

    Notes:

    Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

    While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

    Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

    [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

    For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

    As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

    For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

    William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

    Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

    A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

    Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

    Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

    As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

    In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

    An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

    I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

    I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

    Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

    Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

    I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

    Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

    Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

    From: mississippienne@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

    [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

    I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

    Ida married Henry II, King of England. Henry (son of Geoffrey V of Anjou and Maud "The Empress") was born on 4 Mar 1133 in Le Mans, Maine, Pays de la Loire, France; died on 6 Jul 1189 in Chinon, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France; was buried in Fontévrault Abbey, near Chinon, Anjou, France. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 133. William I Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point was born in 1170; died about 1225; was buried in Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England.

    Ida married Roger II le Bigod about 25 Dec 1181. Roger (son of Hugh I le Bigod and Juliana de Vere) was born in in of Framlingham, Suffolk, England; died before 2 Aug 1221. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 134. Margaret le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 135. Hugh II le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point died before 18 Feb 1225.
    3. 136. Mary le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point