Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Herfast

Male


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Herfast

    Notes:

    Also called Arfast; Arfastus.

    Herfast married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 2. Osbern  Descendancy chart to this point


Generation: 2

  1. 2.  Osbern Descendancy chart to this point (1.Herfast1)

    Notes:

    Seneschal of Normandy. Murdered by William of Montgomery while defending the young William.

    Osbern married Emma d'Ivry, Abbess of St. Amand. (daughter of Rodulf of Ivry and Alberade) [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 3. William fitz Osbern  Descendancy chart to this point was born between 1025 and 1030; died on 20 Feb 1071 in Flanders; was buried in Notre-Dame de Cormeilles Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France.


Generation: 3

  1. 3.  William fitz Osbern Descendancy chart to this point (2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born between 1025 and 1030; died on 20 Feb 1071 in Flanders; was buried in Notre-Dame de Cormeilles Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 21 Feb 1071, Flanders

    Notes:

    Earl of Hereford. One of the fifteen "proven companions" of William at Hastings. Killed at the battle of Cassel, in Flanders.

    William married Adeliza de Tosny. Adeliza (daughter of Roger I de Tosny and Godehildis) was born between 1030 and 1035; died on 5 Oct 1066; was buried in Notre-Dame de Lyre Abbey, Eure, Normandy, France. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 4. St. William of Breteuil  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1130.
    2. 5. Emma de Breteuil  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1096 in Palestine.

    William married Richilde of Egesheim before 1071. Richilde (daughter of Renier V) died on 15 Mar 1086; was buried in Abbey of Hasnon, Nord-Pas-de-Calais, France. [Group Sheet]



Generation: 4

  1. 4.  St. William of Breteuil Descendancy chart to this point (3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died in 1130.

    Notes:

    "William of Breteuil was Benedictine abbot of Breteuil, near Beauvais, France. He rebuilt the monastery after it had been nearly destroyed by the Normans. He was the eldest son of William FitzOsbern, 1st Earl of Hereford. He was held captive and tortured by Ascelin Gouel de Perceval 'Lupus', Sire d'Yvry, until he finally granted his daughter Isabella de Breteuil's hand in marriage to him." [Wikipedia]

    Feast day: July 14.

    St. married (Unknown mistress of William de Breteuil). [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 6. Isabel de Breteuil  Descendancy chart to this point

    St. married Adelaide of Aumale. (daughter of Enguerrand and Alice of Normandy) [Group Sheet]


  2. 5.  Emma de Breteuil Descendancy chart to this point (3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died after 1096 in Palestine.

    Emma married Ralph I de Gael in 1075 in Exning, Cambridgeshire, England. Ralph (son of Ralph "The Staller") was born before 1040; died after 1096 in Palestine. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 7. Ralph II de Gael  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Montfort de Gael, Brittany, France.


Generation: 5

  1. 6.  Isabel de Breteuil Descendancy chart to this point (4.St.4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1)

    Notes:

    Natural daughter of William de Bréteuil.

    Isabel married Ascelin Goel. Ascelin (son of Robert d'Ivry and Hildeburge "The Blessed" de Gallardon) was born in in of Ivry, Normandy, France; died between 1116 and 1119. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 8. William Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Ivry, Normandy, France; died before 1170.

  2. 7.  Ralph II de Gael Descendancy chart to this point (5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born in in of Montfort de Gael, Brittany, France.

    Ralph married . Unknown [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 9. Amice de Gael  Descendancy chart to this point died in in Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England.


Generation: 6

  1. 8.  William Lovel Descendancy chart to this point (6.Isabel5, 4.St.4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born in in of Ivry, Normandy, France; died before 1170.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 1196

    Notes:

    "He joined the rebellion of his brother-in-law Waleran, Count of Meulan, in 1123, and took part in the unsuccessful attempt to relieve the castle of Vatteville in March 1124, but shortly after escaped from the battle of Bourgthéroulde, where the rebels were defeated. Later in the same year he made his peace with the King, and thereafter received considerable grants of land in England. A writ of Geoffrey, Duke of Normandy, is addressed to him between 1144 and 1150, and in 1150-1151 he witnessed at Rouen the charter of Henry, Duke of Normandy, for the town of Rouen. In 1153 his lands in Normandy and, those of his brother, Roger le Bègue, were overrun, and laid waste by Simon de Montfort, Count of Evreux. At some time before 1162 he, with his wife and son Waleran, gave to the abbey of Haute-Bruyère three modii of meal from the mills of his castle of Ivry." [Complete Peerage]

    William married Maud of Meulan. Maud (daughter of Robert of Meulan and Isabel de Vermandois) died after 1189. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 10. William Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Minster Lovel, Oxfordshire, England; died before 1213.

  2. 9.  Amice de Gael Descendancy chart to this point (7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died in in Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called Amice de Montfort.

    She died as a nun in Nuneaton Priory. Complete Peerage says she died after 1168. Royal Ancestry says she died on a 31 August, year uncertain.

    Amice married Robert of Meulan after Nov 1120. Robert (son of Robert of Meulan and Isabel de Vermandois) was born in 1104 in Meulan, Ile-de-France, France; died on 5 Apr 1168; was buried in Leicester Abbey, Leicester, Leicestershire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 11. Robert de Bréteuil  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Leicester, Leicestershire, England; died in 1190; was buried in Durazzo, Greece.
    2. 12. Isabel of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1190.
    3. 13. Hawise of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point died on 24 Apr 1197.
    4. 14. Margaret of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1125; died after 1185.


Generation: 7

  1. 10.  William Lovel Descendancy chart to this point (8.William6, 6.Isabel5, 4.St.4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born in in of Minster Lovel, Oxfordshire, England; died before 1213.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Aft 1212

    Notes:

    Also called William D'Ivry. Joined the Third Crusade in 1190.

    William married Isabel before 1190. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 15. John Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Titchmarsh, Northamptonshire, England; died before 23 Dec 1252.

  2. 11.  Robert de Bréteuil Descendancy chart to this point (9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born in in of Leicester, Leicestershire, England; died in 1190; was buried in Durazzo, Greece.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Bef 1135
    • Alternate death: 31 Aug 1190, At sea
    • Alternate death: 31 Aug 1190, Romania

    Notes:

    Earl of Leicester. Also known as Robert de Beaumont. According to Complete Peerage, nicknamed ès Blanchemains, which translates as "white-hands".

    Steward of England and Normandy; seigneur of Bréteuil and Paci in Normandy. In 1173, he supported Prince Henry, the "young king," in his rebellion against his father Henry II, and in consequence he and his wife were imprisoned by the elder Henry from fall 1173 to fall 1174.

    Died on the way to Jerusalem. Durazzo is now the city of Durres in Albania.

    Robert married Pernel de Grandmesnil in 1155. Pernel (daughter of William de Grandmesnil) died on 1 Apr 1212. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 16. Margaret of Leicester  Descendancy chart to this point died on 12 Jan 1235.
    2. 17. Amicie de Beaumont  Descendancy chart to this point died on 3 Sep 1215.

  3. 12.  Isabel of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died after 1190.

    Notes:

    Also called Isabel de Beaumont; Elizabeth.

    Isabel married Simon II de Senlis before 1138. Simon (son of Simon I de Senlis and Maud of Northumberland) was born about 1103; died in Aug 1153; was buried in St. Andrew's, Fife, Scotland. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 18. Isabel de Senlis  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1210.

  4. 13.  Hawise of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died on 24 Apr 1197.

    Notes:

    Also called Hawise de Beaumont.

    Hawise married William fitz Robert about 1150. William (son of Robert of Gloucester and Mabel fitz Robert) died on 23 Nov 1183; was buried in Kernsham Abbey, Somerset, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 19. Isabel  Descendancy chart to this point died on 14 Oct 1217.
    2. 20. Amice of Gloucester  Descendancy chart to this point died on 1 Jan 1225.

  5. 14.  Margaret of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born about 1125; died after 1185.

    Notes:

    Also called Margaret de Beaumont.

    Margaret married Ralph de Tony after 1155. Ralph (son of Roger de Tony and Ida de Hainaut) was born about 1140 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in 1162. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 21. Roger de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born in in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in Jan 1209.
    2. 22. Ida de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point


Generation: 8

  1. 15.  John Lovel Descendancy chart to this point (10.William7, 8.William6, 6.Isabel5, 4.St.4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born in in of Titchmarsh, Northamptonshire, England; died before 23 Dec 1252.

    John married Katherine Basset before Aug 1216. Katherine (daughter of Alan Basset and Aline de Gay) died after 6 Jul 1267. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 23. John Lovel  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1222 in of Titchmarsh, Northamptonshire, England; died before 27 Sep 1287.

  2. 16.  Margaret of Leicester Descendancy chart to this point (11.Robert7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died on 12 Jan 1235.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1236

    Notes:

    Or Margery. [Royal Ancestry]

    Also known as Margaret de Beaumont.

    Margaret married Saher de Quincy before 1173. Saher (son of Robert de Quincy and Orabel fitz Ness) was born in 1155 in Winchester, Hampshire, England; died on 3 Nov 1219 in Damietta, Egypt; was buried in Acre, Palestine. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 24. Robert de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1217 in London, England.
    2. 25. Hawise de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1263; was buried in Earls Colne Priory, Halstead, Essex, England.
    3. 26. Orabel de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point
    4. 27. Roger de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1195; died on 25 Apr 1264.
    5. 28. Robert de Quincy  Descendancy chart to this point was born before 1200 in of Wakes Colne, Essex, England; died in Aug 1257.

  3. 17.  Amicie de Beaumont Descendancy chart to this point (11.Robert7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died on 3 Sep 1215.

    Amicie married Simon IV de Montfort before Jan 1175. Simon (son of Simon de Montfort and Maud) was born about 1153; died before 18 Jul 1188. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 29. Simon V de Montfort  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1175; died on 25 Jun 1218 in Toulouse, Languedoc, France.

  4. 18.  Isabel de Senlis Descendancy chart to this point (12.Isabel7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died after 1210.

    Notes:

    Also called Isabel de St. Liz.

    Isabel married William Mauduit. William (son of William Mauduit and Alice) was born between 1130 and 1135 in of Hanslope, Buckinghamshire, England; died on 2 Oct 1194; was buried in Waverley Abbey, Surrey, England. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 30. Robert Mauduit  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1172 in of Hanslope, Buckinghamshire, England; died before 19 Jun 1222.

  5. 19.  Isabel Descendancy chart to this point (13.Hawise7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died on 14 Oct 1217.

    Notes:

    Also called Isabelle, Isabella, Joan, and Eleanor. Suo jure Countess of Gloucester.

    Isabel married John, King of England on 29 Aug 1189 in Marlborough, Wiltshire, England. John (son of Henry II, King of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine, Queen Consort of France; Queen Consort of England) was born about 27 Dec 1166 in Oxford, Oxfordshire, England; died on 19 Oct 1216 in Newark Castle, Newark, Nottinghamshire, England; was buried in Worcester Cathedral, Worcestershire, England. [Group Sheet]

    Isabel married Hubert de Burgh in Sep 1217. Hubert (son of Walter de Burgh and Alice) was born about 1170; died in 1243; was buried in Black Friars, Holborn, London, England. [Group Sheet]


  6. 20.  Amice of Gloucester Descendancy chart to this point (13.Hawise7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) died on 1 Jan 1225.

    Notes:

    Also called Amice fitz William.

    According to RA, she was not "recognized" before her death as "Countess of Gloucester," despite CP's assertion to this effect. All contemporary charters and other documents involving her refer to her as countess of Clare, i.e., Hertford.

    Amice married Richard de Clare about 1180. Richard (son of Roger de Clare and Maud de St. Hilary) was born about 1153 in of Clare, Suffolk, England; died between 30 Oct 1217 and 28 Nov 1217. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 31. Maud de Clare  Descendancy chart to this point died in 1213.
    2. 32. Hawise de Clare  Descendancy chart to this point died after 1234.
    3. 33. Gilbert de Clare  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1180; died on 25 Oct 1230 in Penrose, Brittany, France; was buried in Tewkesbury Abbey, Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England.

  7. 21.  Roger de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (14.Margaret7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1) was born in in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died in Jan 1209.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1160

    Notes:

    Also called Roger de Tonches. Founded the nunnery of St. Giles in the Wood, Flamstead, Hertfordshire.

    "Went with Richard I on Crusade, 1191, and distinguished himself at Arsulf and fought against the Saracens at ElKhuweilfe, 1192. In 1204 he lost all of his Norman lands to the King of France." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Roger married Constance de Beaumont in 1175. Constance (daughter of Richard I de Beaumont and Lucy de l'Aigle) died after 1226. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 34. Ralph VI de Tony  Descendancy chart to this point was born about 1189 in of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, England; died about 29 Sep 1239 in At sea.

  8. 22.  Ida de Tony Descendancy chart to this point (14.Margaret7, 9.Amice6, 7.Ralph5, 5.Emma4, 3.William3, 2.Osbern2, 1.Herfast1)

    Notes:

    Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

    While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

    Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

    [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

    For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

    As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

    For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

    William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

    Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

    A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

    Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

    Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

    As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

    In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

    An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

    I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

    I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

    Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

    Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

    I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

    Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

    Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

    From: mississippienne@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

    [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

    I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

    Ida married Henry II, King of England. Henry (son of Geoffrey V of Anjou and Maud "The Empress") was born on 4 Mar 1133 in Le Mans, Maine, Pays de la Loire, France; died on 6 Jul 1189 in Chinon, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France; was buried in Fontévrault Abbey, near Chinon, Anjou, France. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 35. William I Longespée  Descendancy chart to this point was born in 1170; died about 1225; was buried in Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England.

    Ida married Roger II le Bigod about 25 Dec 1181. Roger (son of Hugh I le Bigod and Juliana de Vere) was born in in of Framlingham, Suffolk, England; died before 2 Aug 1221. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 36. Margaret le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 37. Hugh II le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point died before 18 Feb 1225.
    3. 38. Mary le Bigod  Descendancy chart to this point