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      <title>Making Light :: Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? :: comments</title>
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      <title>Who "made" traditional Japanese prints?</title>
      <description>This is a page of selected comments from a thread that developed in the Shogun Gallery's Chats on Japanese Prints...</description>
      <content:encoded>This is a page of selected comments from a thread that developed in the Shogun Gallery's Chats on Japanese Prints...</content:encoded>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #1 from Avram</title>
         <description>comment from Avram on 22.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I was reading this post, I was thinking about comics, especially the Japanese studio system which relies heavily on assistants.  And about Western artists like Warhol.  <br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 22, 2003  2:22 PM by Avram&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14572</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 22 Jan 2003 14:22:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #2 from Adam Rice</title>
         <description>comment from Adam Rice on 22.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comparison with comics is apt. Comics in the USA have a penciler, inker, and colorer. And sometimes one guy who just does backgrounds (forget what that's called). Some pencilers are quite meticulous, and impose more of their style on the end result. Some are more impressionistic, and leave a lot up to the inker, who winds up responsible for the look to a surprising extent. Some penciler/inker teams are more famous for their style *as a team* than either could be alone.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 22, 2003  3:57 PM by Adam Rice&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14587</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 22 Jan 2003 15:57:08 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #3 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ukiyo-e were commercial art, comparable to posters in their time and place.  It wasn't until western collectors noticed them--as packing material surrounding some "valuable" Japanese object or other--that the Japanese began to take them seriously.  Hokusai (not the only name he took, by the way), at least, deserves credit as a great artist--the man did an incredible lot of stuff, not only ukiyo-e, IIRC.  He coined the term "manga," by the way, which means "lazy drawing" and by which he meant what we would now call "cartoon."</p>

<p>As for a comics connection--look up the illustrated <i>Tale of Genji</i> from the Heian period (1100ce or so, iirc).  About 20% of it survives, the various pieces of the hand-scrolls separated among various museums, and I would say it is sequential art.  The production sequence which the experts say used was one which I think any person familiar with comics would recognize.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003  2:37 AM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14639</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 02:37:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #4 from David Goldfarb</title>
         <description>comment from David Goldfarb on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there anybody in comics who specializes in doing just the backgrounds, letting others do the figure drawing, besides Gerhard on <i>Cerebus</i>?  I don't think that style of work is common enough that the "backgrounds guy" has a name for what he does. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003  4:33 AM by David Goldfarb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14642</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 04:33:53 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #5 from Kip</title>
         <description>comment from Kip on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't know if it's an ongoing specialty, but there are times when art chores in comics are divided up that way. When <b>Superman vs Spiderman</b> came out, around 1976, I was looking at it and saying that maybe Dick Giordano's inks weren't as bad as I'd always said they were -- just look at the great work on those backgrounds. I later learned that Terry Austin had done the backgrounds (and put his name on a bakery truck; so obvious in retrospect).</p>

<p>The European masters did the same thing, with figure specialists and landscape specialists working on the same paintings. Sometimes we know who they were, other times it's "studio of..." Too bad they didn't put more detailed credits on the works. <i>Figures: Jazzy Giovanni Cimabue, backgrounds: Jolly Giotto, letters: Avuncular Arturo di Simeca.</i></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003 10:42 AM by Kip&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14659</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 10:42:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #6 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a more recent example Carl Lundgren, at the height of his popularity--I wonder if he is still working--was doing that.  The idea of sole "authorship" in complex popular visual art--and Renaissance painting was that, just as much as ukiyo-e--is often nonsense.  Which, I suppose, people like Warhol knew very well, and took advantage of.  On top of which, all representational art necessarily involves a certain amount of copying of nature, and probably all abstract art as well.  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003 12:03 PM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14671</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:03:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #7 from Adam Rice</title>
         <description>comment from Adam Rice on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As long as we're talking about this, it's worth pointing out that some of the best comic-book artists were directly inspired by the ukiyo-e masters. Back when I was a kid and collected the Frank Miller Daredevils, I was impressed by a particular two-page layout. Years later, I found exactly that composition in a Yoshitoshi print (Yoshitoshi's my favorite of the ukiyo-e artists).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003 12:40 PM by Adam Rice&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14673</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 12:40:48 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #8 from Scott Marley</title>
         <description>comment from Scott Marley on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a practicing writer in the field of opera/musical theater, which even at our modest semi-professional level is one of the most intensely collaborative art forms I know of, I've thought about this issue a lot and have to deal with it in a practical way with every new project.</p>

<p>I've come to think that our concern with assigning a work of art to one artist is our own hangup, a consequence of our modern cult of celebrity, and ultimately born of the same human urge that once created countless gods as personifications of War, Love, Wealth, Fidelity, etc. Trying to analyze an artwork exclusively in terms of a single artist's vision is like trying to analyze the chemical composition of a rainbow.</p>

<p>We scoff nowadays at worshipping gods because we're too sophisticated to believe in their literal truth (and refuse to accept the possibility that those who once worshipped them knew perfectly well that they were worshipping metaphors), and instead we create metaphors like "Peter Jackson" and heap worshipful praise upon him and credit this imaginary superhuman with having personally created every last aspect of the movies that were merely directed by the real person who shares the name.</p>

<p>Various genres differ in how explicitly collaborative they are. Theater and comic books are certainly more so than most others; perhaps something like poetry is least of all. But you can't get away from collaboration and to pretend that you can is to worship a metaphor. Even a poet can't get away from collaboration with his or her readers, because all writing itself depends on shared understanding of the meanings and associations of words, and a work that tries to go beyond that shared understanding, like Finnegans Wake, doesn't make an effect until a reader/collaborator makes the effort to assimilate and share in the author's meanings.</p>

<p>DJM writes: ... but surely that does not also mean that the artist would be undeserving of the primary credit for his creations.</p>

<p>And why is it important to us that the artist receive primary credit? This is a hangup in our own minds, not that of the artist (who in this case is dead and could no longer care less, but who when living is unlikely to have craved that the work of his collaborators be dismissed).</p>

<p>Dave Bull writes: But who do we remember now - that man who carefully drew every line in the print? The carver who brought those lines to life? The printer? No, the only name we remember is that of the man who brushed that original sketch. </p>

<p>Again, our hangup. Who do WE remember, WE WE WE. As if it matters whom we remember; as if the artist is supposed to feel warm and fuzzy up in Heaven because we've burned some extra incense at his altar.</p>

<p>It's all just vanity and idolatry. The artwork exists, and EVERYTHING in the community at the time contributed to it: the quality of the sunlight that day, the shared meaning of what a particular kind of brushstroke evokes, the assistant who filled in the sky, the communal understandings that caused the artist to want to express this idea to other people, the strawberries that the printer ate the evening before doing his part of the work.</p>

<p>The artwork came into existence through means too complicated for us to analyze completely, and each of us reacts to it differently in an infinitely complicated way that is influenced by every experience we've ever had. Everything else is a metaphor, useful when you want to talk about what is ultimately ineffable, but an illusion all the same.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003  1:58 PM by Scott Marley&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14685</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 13:58:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #9 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on 23.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, it depends a lot on the art.  In the visual arts, vision, literally, counts for a lot; I think it's fair to give "Hokusai," at least, credit for that.  Complex performance arts like opera are something else again; "story" is a big part of the story, but so is music, poetry (when lyricists differ from scriptwriters), production, and performance.</p>

<p>Adam, could Miller have been exposed to ukiyo-e through manga?  Or did he study them directly?  Manga, of course, draw on the Japanese tradition of integrated text and graphics that goes back, literally, for a millenium.  (It came and went in Japanese art, faded out almost entirely in the Meiji period and then came roaring back in manga in the '50s.  Modern manga themselves--I just recently looked them up, came from a fusion of Japanese cartooning technique and Western cinematography.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 23, 2003 11:57 PM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14719</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 23 Jan 2003 23:57:55 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #10 from Cassandra P-S</title>
         <description>comment from Cassandra P-S on 24.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where is the color-chart mentioned? I couldn't find it on either page.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 24, 2003 12:25 PM by Cassandra P-S&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14738</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 24 Jan 2003 12:25:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #11 from Scott</title>
         <description>comment from Scott on 24.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I certainly don't think it's wrong to give the master artist credit. But (a) I think it's unfortunate to lose sight of the fact that great artists generally have great support teams, (b) my experience is unquestionably that unless one was present at the development of the artwork (or is privy to gossip from one who was), it is impossible to be completely sure who was responsible for any particular stroke, because great assistants can at times be so in harmony with their masters that they are sometimes capable of bursts of genius that are indistinguishable from those of the master (and, truth to tell, those strokes that do not ring true cannot with 100% certainly be attributed to assistants because even great artists are not always at their best), and (c) anyone claiming to be an art connoisseur who doesn't recognize and even delight in the ultimate irrationality and indecipherability of the creative process is kidding either himself or the people he's hiring himself out to or both.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 24, 2003  1:15 PM by Scott&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002261.html#14740</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 24 Jan 2003 13:15:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Who &quot;made&quot; traditional Japanese prints? -- comment #12 from Randolph</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph on 24.Jan.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott, we are in agreement.  Beyond a certain point, claims of authorship (a word related to authority) become silly.  As for connoisseurs, as long as clients hire me when the time comes, I don't care if they <i>are</i> kidding themselves about how I do my work; I hope to be their architect, not their psychotherapist.</p>

<p>Teresa, it occurs to me that ukiyo-e were anything but traditional Japanese art, by the way.  They are syncretic works, western-influenced.  This is most clearly indicated by the use of perspective.  (Which, by the way, sometimes the artists faked.)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted January 24, 2003  3:06 PM by Randolph&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 24 Jan 2003 15:06:29 -0500</pubDate>
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