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      <title>Making Light :: Further gods :: comments</title>
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      <description>Language, fraud, folly, truth, history, and knitting. Et cetera.</description>
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      <title>Further gods</title>
      <description>In the late 1970s, Jack Kirby was asked to design the film version of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light. A...</description>
      <content:encoded>In the late 1970s, Jack Kirby was asked to design the film version of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light. A...</content:encoded>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #1 from Kevin J. Maroney</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin J. Maroney on  1.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can't remember where I read it, but I've seen it suggested that the entire Lord of Light project was a money-laundering scheme. </p>

<p>I think that Kirby is just wrong for Lord of Light; he's too heavy and too, well, distinctively Kirby. My mental illustrations of Lord of Light are very airy, brightly lit, and very, very streamlined--clean lines and not a lot of them. The right comics artist for such a project is probably P. Craig Russell, who is graceful and complex. </p>

<p>But I've always assumed that the world of Lord of Light looks like Hindu myth, not Hindu myth + obvious technology, given how much of the story revolves around Mahasamatman introducing technology into the world to disrupt the Gods' rule. </p>

<p>God, I need to re-read that. It's been fifteen years, at least. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  1, 2003  3:31 AM by Kevin J. Maroney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2003 03:31:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #2 from Alan Bostick</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Bostick on  1.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kirby's vision of LoL has nothing to do with my own personal vision of the book; but how magnificently Kirby it is.  If the movie had been made, I would have gobbled it up (complaining the whole way, of course).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  1, 2003 11:56 AM by Alan Bostick&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16402</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2003 11:56:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #3 from Avram</title>
         <description>comment from Avram on  1.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This came up a year or two ago on a mailing list I'm on.  This claim was made on an episode of a cable TV series in which someone named Errol Morris interviews people:  </p>

<p>"One episode was called 'The Little Gray Man', about a retired CIA agent who was apparently an authentic master of disguise (although according to TLGM, 'The really good spies don't need disguises. They're just uninteresting.').  Anyway, one of the more improbable stories he told was about smuggling some Americans out of the Canadian embassy during the Iranian hostage crisis.  To accomplish this, he had to quickly develop a cover story for getting a team into Iran. The method chosen was to pose as a film crew (presumably non-American) doing location scouting for a filmed version of Roger Zelazny's _Lord of Light_. Apparently this was a real Hollywood production that had stopped for some reason and TLGM was able to go use their materials for this worthy cause.</p>

<p>"Now, why a movie about Hindu gods would have played well with the mullahs I didn't understand, unless he managed to make it clear to them that they were fake Hindu gods. They showed some production drawings that looked like Hindu gods done in the style of Marvel comics. Too bad they never made the movie."</p>

<p>Someone else refuted this, with a link to <a href="http://www.cia.gov/csi/studies/winter99-00/art1.html" rel="nofollow">a story on the CIA's web page</a>, in which the movie is _Argo_, about Jacob and the Golden Fleece.  Sigh.  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  1, 2003  2:10 PM by Avram&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16404</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2003 14:10:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #4 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on  1.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Jacob and the Golden Fleece"?</p>

<p>But the sheep is the sheep of Esau.</p>

<p>Errol Morris is a documentarian of considerable note -- "Gates of Heaven" and "The Thin Blue Line" among others. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  1, 2003  4:24 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16410</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2003 16:24:05 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #5 from Mary Kay</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Kay on  1.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let my hijack this entirely.  Since the title is Further gods.  Anybody know a god or even saint who presides over junk or suff or obsolete electronics?  Jordin's trying to get the garage packed for moving and could use and intercessory prayer about now.  Maybe St. Jude....</p>

<p>MKK</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  1, 2003 10:19 PM by Mary Kay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16411</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:19:29 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #6 from Seth Johnson</title>
         <description>comment from Seth Johnson on  1.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree that Kirby seems a bit strange for Lord of Light. But I wish the theme park had been built, if only so that I could go visit Kirby-designed buildings in the real world. I don't think I could decide until I was standing in front of them whether they were the most incredible things I'd ever see or gaudier than Las Vegas. </p>

<p>Of course, "both" is a distinct possibility as well.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  1, 2003 10:22 PM by Seth Johnson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16412</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2003 22:22:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #7 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on  2.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kirby was also an odd choice for "2001" and "The Prisoner" (an incomplete project, unrelated to the later series).  I suspect that he was willing to try anything if asked, and could be relied on to produce usable work on time.  That is not, I should make clear, meant as indirect criticism.</p>

<p>Given that the "World of Superman" theme park that DC hyped for years never got built (the later projects are a product of a completely different corporate system), there's certainly something strange about the idea of a Zelazny-based park in the same time frame (or now, for that matter).</p>

<p>Though I'd probably go to Michael Moorcock's World of Gloriana.   Or Six Flags Over the Instrumentality.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  2, 2003 12:53 AM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2003 00:53:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #8 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on  2.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A while back, there was talk of building a Laurie Anderson theme park in Spain.</p>

<p>Perhaps there'd be room there for an Oh, Superman ride. (Ah, ah, ah, ah . . .)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  2, 2003  1:53 AM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16419</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2003 01:53:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #9 from Kevin J. Maroney</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin J. Maroney on  2.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I imprinted hard on Kirby's adaptation of 2001, so it seems perfectly natural to me. (I think I read the comic adaptation before I saw the movie; I know I read the comic before I read the novel.)</p>

<p>I still croggle at the idea of a Kirby <i>Prisoner</i>, even though I've seen art <a href="http://www.twomorrows.com/kirby/articles/11prisoner.html" rel="nofollow">samples</a>. It doesn't look <i>wrong</i> the way the Celestials posing as Lord of Light characters do. <br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  2, 2003  4:01 AM by Kevin J. Maroney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2003 04:01:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #10 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on  2.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'll agree that it's more Kirby than Zelazny. I've always imagined <i>Lord of Light</i> as looking just like Hindu religious art.</p>

<p>Kevin, I'm interested by the suggestion that the whole thing was a money-laundering scheme. Do you remember why they thought that?</p>

<p>I expect the Kirby <i>Prisoner</i> art was closer to the original because it started out as a TV series: the visuals were already established.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  2, 2003  6:44 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16445</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2003 18:44:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #11 from Kevin J. Maroney</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin J. Maroney on  2.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may have been mis-remembering the bit about the film being a boondoggle to smuggle people out of revolutionary Iran. <br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  2, 2003 10:49 PM by Kevin J. Maroney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16454</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2003 22:49:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #12 from Jonathan Lundell</title>
         <description>comment from Jonathan Lundell on  5.Mar.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kirby's images are not only not right, they're not the right images. That is, none of the illustrations are significant pieces of my vision of the book.</p>

<p>I reread LoL a few months ago. It holds up nicely. It was the first RZ I ever read, and I read all his stuff for years afterward in a futile attempt to find something half as good.</p>

<p>(One problem with Kirby's images, contra Teresa, is that they're *too* "Hindu religious art". The language of LoL is vernacular techno-western, and the imagery needs to carry at least a hint of that.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March  5, 2003  2:57 AM by Jonathan Lundell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#16555</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 05 Mar 2003 02:57:55 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #13 from Sbhsh Grg</title>
         <description>comment from Sbhsh Grg on 25.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hld n scnd - bjct t th d tht Hnd gds nd gddsss r plythngs fr drngd Wstrn mnds t kck rnd lk ftbll. Why n hll dn't y mnk wth Jss Chrst nstd? Scrd f bcklsh? Myb Krb s snstv t Hnd sntmnts - dn't knw - bt sy lt Wstrnrs scrw wth thr wn knd nd lv Hnd gds ln. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2003 12:40 PM by Sbhsh Grg&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/002385.html#30661</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2003 12:40:48 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #14 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Subhash, you should read <i>Lord of Light.</i>  The people who go around pretending to be Hindu Gods are the <i>bad</i> guys (mostly).  The hero is dubbed Mahasamatman by others, but he calls himself Sam.  And it's set in the far future, not on Earth; it does not trash the real gods of Hinduism, but only depicts the hubris of some humans who decide to subjugate other humans by claiming to be those gods.</p>

<p>You're right that Western tradition has a pretty repulsive tendency in that direction.  Media presentations are much worse than books in that regard: I was offended by <i>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom</i> for exactly that reason - until <i>The Last Crusade</i> came out and they made equal hash of Christian theology.  </p>

<p>Other examples, though, include the recent <i>Hercules</i> series (Aphrodite may be light and playful, but she isn't a surfer chick), and the worst one, <i>Stargate SG-1</i> which started out trashing the ancient Egyptian gods (some of whom I worship) by claiming they were all really evil parasitic aliens called the Goa'uld.  Then they got worse by expanding to include basically all the gods in the world except those worshipped by Northern Europeans: the Asgard were <i>nice</i> aliens, and they seldom mention the Christian pantheon (don't get me started) at all.  (Mercifully they've mostly steered clear of the Hindu pantheon except Nirrti.)</p>

<p>I watch the show anyway.  I just pretend it's set in an alternate universe where the Ancient Gods really were evil parasitic aliens, instead of the tough-love benevolencies I have a spiritual relationship with.  But I still wish they'd run into the most "petty and cruel" Goa'uld of them all: Yahweh.  That, at least, would be fair and balanced (tm).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  2:40 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:40:14 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Further gods -- comment #15 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 27.Oct.03</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, my.  Subhash's post got disemvowelled.  I guess it WAS kind of rude, but I thought there was a legitimate point in there too.  I hope mine isn't taken as rude by anyone.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2003  2:42 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2003 14:42:47 -0500</pubDate>
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