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      <title>Making Light :: Open Thread 52 :: comments</title>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#comments </link>
      <description>Language, fraud, folly, truth, history, and knitting. Et cetera.</description>
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      <lastBuildDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:49:48 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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      <item>
      <title>Open Thread 52</title>
      <description>. . . of what is past, or passing, or to come....</description>
      <content:encoded>. . . of what is past, or passing, or to come....</content:encoded>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html</link>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #1 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Saw "Good Night and Good Luck" this afternoon. George Clooney's labor of love about the CBS News gang, led by Murrow, taking on McCarthy.</p>

<p>Pretty good, very moody and flavorful*, but not as tense as it could be given that almost everyone who will go to see it knows roughly how things sorted out.</p>

<p>* One of the flavors has got to be nicotine.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005  7:16 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 19:16:54 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #2 from Dori</title>
         <description>comment from Dori on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't know whether this should go here or in the previous post's comments, but some of y'all might enjoy my latest: <a href="http://www.backupbrain.com/fitzmas/" rel="nofollow">Fitzmas Bingo</a>. Reload the page to get a new card.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005  8:21 PM by Dori&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:21:44 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #3 from Josh Jasper</title>
         <description>comment from Josh Jasper on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Followers of events in Iraq might be interested in this <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/23/magazine/23sassaman.html" rel="nofollow">article on Col. Nathan Sassman, who was accused of covering up a drowning death or an Iraqi civillian who was thrown into the Tigris river</a>.  </p>

<p>Good stuff.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005  9:08 PM by Josh Jasper&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:08:25 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #4 from hrc</title>
         <description>comment from hrc on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what do folks think?  Assuming we get indictments this week, will there eventually be resignations or will Bush issue pardons and the present administration will continue its stumbling to oblivion (with a rejection for Miers thrown in for good measure)?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005 10:22 PM by hrc&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:22:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #5 from Bruce E. Durocher II</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce E. Durocher II on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>O.K., I've burned through too much of this afternoon in a useless attempt to find a DVD of a film I want to buy--bittorents and similar stuff are all over the place on this one but I'm trying to be good and legal.  Does anyone know of a store in the U.S.A. that imports Czech DVD's so I can get a copy of Adéla jeste nevecerela A.K.A. Nick Carter in Prague?  Miramax seems to have forgotten they ever released it over here...</p>

<p>And let's just not go into finding a sharp copy of Vynalez Zkazy A.K.A. The Fabulous Adventures of Jules Verne.  I want to give it as a gift, but I'm told the DVD sold in the U.S.A. is from a tired print and I'm not going to spend a fortune on a Japanese DVD of the thing without any info about picture quality.  Grumble.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005 10:42 PM by Bruce E. Durocher II&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:42:57 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #6 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Bush pardons, watch for his teeny weeny base of delusional sycophants to plotz in ecstasy, the Usual Suspect pundits will nod sagely and gloat about justice being done, and the rest of the country to get really, really ticked.</p>

<p>A pardon means all gloves are off. Any dirt that can get dug up will; love children will surface; more formerly reticent ex-insiders will come forth to describe administration shenanigans.</p>

<p>If there isn't a permenant demonstration in front of the White House I'll be very disappointed.</p>

<p>If the Democrats don't get a clue and use outrage over the pardons in their campaigns, they're hopeless. Anyone ever photographed shaking hands with Bush should be made <i>unelectable</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005 10:50 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 22:50:20 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #7 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on 23.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it's worth, Waldrop & Person reviewed the US DVD of "The Fabulous World (not "Adventures") of Jules Verne" in <i>Locus,</i> and described it as "eminently watchable," though certainly not pristine.  It's also only $15.  (You can find the review in the '04 archive.)</p>

<p>Having only seen the picture on television (several times -- I'm guessing that Howard's local station didn't have a copy and mine did), I would be happy to have it in watchable but imperfect form, though a Criterion-level disc would certainly be a fine thing</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 23, 2005 11:46 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:46:53 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #8 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Our God, our help in ages past,<br />
Our hope for years to come,<br />
Our shelter from the stormy blast,<br />
And our eternal home.</p>

<p>Time, like an ever rolling stream,<br />
Bears all its sons away;<br />
They fly, forgotten, as a dream<br />
Dies at the opening day.</p>

<p>A thousand ages in Thy sight<br />
Are like an evening gone;<br />
Short as the watch that ends the night<br />
Before the rising sun.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 12:34 AM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:34:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #9 from Vassilissa</title>
         <description>comment from Vassilissa on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tenors to the right of him,<br />
Tenors to the left of him,<br />
Discords behind him,<br />
Bellowed and thundered.<br />
Oh, the wild howls they wrought:<br />
Right to the end they fought!<br />
Some tune they sang, but not,<br />
Not the Old Hundred.<br />
- Anon</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  2:17 AM by Vassilissa&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 02:17:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #10 from Dave Luckett</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Luckett on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must admit to a deep fondness, from the depths of my agnostic heart, for the Army's evening hymn: </p>

<p>"Lead, Kindly Light, amid th'encircling gloom<br />
Lead Thou me on.<br />
The night is dark, and I am far from home.<br />
Lead Thou me on.<br />
Guide Thou my feet; I do not wish to see<br />
The distant scene. One step enough for me."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  4:00 AM by Dave Luckett&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 04:00:01 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #11 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I note that the discovery of a parrot with H5N1 in quarantine at Heathrow airport is leading EU officials to consider a ban on the import of live birds.</p>

<p>Which is, of course, the best way to ensure that all imported live birds go through an effective quarantine procedure.</p>

<p>Muppets.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  6:35 AM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 06:35:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #12 from Madeline Kelly</title>
         <description>comment from Madeline Kelly on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jules, I look forward to seeing how they stop migrating birds from crossing country borders.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  7:23 AM by Madeline Kelly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 07:23:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #13 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What? <i>The Fabulous World of Jules Verne</i> is available on DVD. Wonderful. Now, if someone could release <i>Master of the World</i>, that would make me very happy. Vincent Price is in it, Charles Bronson. And the airship Albatross looks so damn neat. And Richard Matheson did a good job adapting <i>Robur the Conqueror</i> and <i>Master of the World</i> into one single movie for American International. </p>

<p>  (<i>"How can it be American AND International?" <br />
    "Let's watch and find out."</i>)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  8:32 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:32:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #14 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>(Picked up from the earlier thread...)</i></p>

<p>In his listing of various Warner Bros cartoons where real actors appear, I think John M. Ford forgot one that pops up every once in a while on TCM:</p>

<p><i>To Have and Have Not and Have and Have Not and Have and Have Not and Have and Have Not and Have and Have Not and Have and Have Not and Have and Have Not...</i></p>

<p>Last year, at Boston's worldcon, the movie program listed a bunch of Marvin Martian cartoons that would be shown right after <i>It Came from Outer Space</i>. They did wind up showing some Warner cartoons, but none of them were about Marvin. Sylvester and Tweety just isn't the same. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  8:40 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:40:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #15 from Lila</title>
         <description>comment from Lila on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While we're quoting hymns, this seems like an appropriate time to give the nod to my late father's favorite:</p>

<p>Once to every man and nation<br />
Comes the moment to decide<br />
In the strife of truth with falsehood,<br />
For the good or evil side.<br />
Some great cause, God's new Messiah,<br />
Offering each the bloom or blight,<br />
And the choice goes by forever<br />
'Twixt that darkness and that light.</p>

<p>Then to side with truth is noble,<br />
When we share her wretched crust,<br />
Ere her cause bring fame and profit,<br />
And 'tis prosperous to be just; <br />
Then it is the brave man chooses,<br />
While the coward stands aside<br />
Till the multitude make virtue<br />
Of the faith they had denied.</p>

<p>By the light of burning martyrs<br />
Jesus' bleeding feet I track,<br />
Toiling up new Calvaries ever<br />
With the cross that turns not back;<br />
New occasions teach new duties,<br />
Time makes ancient good uncouth;<br />
They must upward still and onward<br />
Who would keep abreast of truth.</p>

<p>Though the cause of evil prosper,<br />
Yet 'tis truth alone is strong;<br />
Though her portion be the scaffold,<br />
And upon the throne be wrong.<br />
Yet that scaffold sways the future,<br />
And behind the dim unknown,<br />
Standeth God within the shadow<br />
Keeping watch above His own.</p>

<p>--James Russell Lowell</p>

<p>(Still gives me chills. Not surprisingly, this hymn was removed from the Episcopal Hymnal--it was #519 in the 1940 version if you can find one. It has a great tune too--the Welsh "Ton-y-Botel" or "tune in a bottle".)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  8:56 AM by Lila&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 08:56:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #16 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I note that the discovery of a parrot with H5N1 in quarantine at Heathrow airport is leading EU officials to consider a ban on the import of live birds.</i></p>

<p>The BBC radio news on Sunday reported this incident thus:</p>

<p>"And, with the discovery that a parrot in quarantine at Heathrow was carrying avian flu, we ask: is Britain at risk from an epidemic?" <br />
At this point, the producer rolled a taped piece, thus:<br />
"This parrot is deceased! It is no more! It's a stiff! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed it to the perch it would be pushing up the daisies! It's shuffled off its mortal coil and gone to join the choir invisible! This is an ex-parrot!"</p>

<p>Based on this, it is, I feel, safe to say that BBC Radio 4 is still far from panic. But then I would expect nothing less from the station which still forms a key part of Britain's <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Today_programme' rel="nofollow">nuclear deterrent command chain. </a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 10:05 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 10:05:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #17 from James</title>
         <description>comment from James on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can't find any details of the textual history, but the Lowell hymn (which has been quoted on Making Light before, BTW) seems to be a severely abridged and altered form of his poem "The Present Crisis", which is an eighteen-stanza poem with five, not four, fifteen-syllable lines per stanza.  Of the lines which are retained for the hymn, some are significantly altered, e.g. "By the light of burning heretics Christ's bleeding feet I track".  I have no inkling as to whether Lowell himself made the alterations or whether they were made later on; the hymn seems to have been in several hymnals.</p>

<p>"Lead, Kindly Light" is Newman; it's a bit of cognitive dissonance to see the two authors nearly juxtaposed.</p>

<p>Along similar lines of public criticism to Lowell's hymn, there's Chesterton:</p>

<p> O God of earth and altar,<br />
 Bow down and hear our cry, <br />
 Our earthly rulers falter,<br />
 Our people drift and die; <br />
 The walls of gold entomb us,<br />
 The swords of scorn divide, <br />
 Take not thy thunder from us,<br />
 But take away our pride. </p>

<p> From all that terror teaches,<br />
 From lies of tongue and pen, <br />
 From all the easy speeches<br />
 That comfort cruel men, <br />
 From sale and profanation<br />
 Of honour and the sword, <br />
 From sleep and from damnation,<br />
 Deliver us, good Lord.</p>

<p> Tie in a living tether<br />
 The prince and priest and thrall, <br />
 Bind all our lives together,<br />
 Smite us and save us all; <br />
 In ire and exultation<br />
 Aflame with faith, and free, <br />
 Lift up a living nation,<br />
 A single sword to thee.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:36 AM by James&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #18 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's also Kipling's "Recessional" which makes a good hymn.</p>

<p>God of our fathers, known of old,<br />
Lord of our far-flung battle line,<br />
Beneath whose aweful hand we hold<br />
Dominion over palm and pine:<br />
Lord God of hosts, be with us yet,<br />
Lest we forget, lest we forget.</p>

<p>It has several more stanzas, which I can't remember off the top of my head. (Being able to remember first stanza and tune on a lot of hymns is a possible benefit of years of church-going of the Methodist persuasion.)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:57 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #19 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do people sing 'Recessional' as a hymn? (Good for them) To what tune?</p>

<p>A couple of good ones from SF are 'Abide with Me' (Stephen Baxter's 'Voyage' uses it very movingly) and 'Jerusalem' (the hymn of the English Revolution in Ken MacLeod's 'The Star Fraction'). Blake would have hated the way that 'Jerusalem' became an anthem of English self-assurance; but I think he would have liked it as a revolutionary song...<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 12:24 PM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:24:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #20 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ajay writes:<br />
<i>A couple of good ones from SF are 'Abide with Me' (Stephen Baxter's 'Voyage' uses it very movingly) and 'Jerusalem' (the hymn of the English Revolution in Ken MacLeod's 'The Star Fraction'). Blake would have hated the way that 'Jerusalem' became an anthem of English self-assurance; but I think he would have liked it as a revolutionary song...</i></p>

<pre>No hiding place, down here
No hiding place
There's no hiding place
Down here
No hiding place
And they went to the rock to hide their face
But the rock cried out
No hiding place
There's no hiding place
Down here</pre>

<p>The gospel song 'And the rock cried out no hiding place' used in the B5 episode of the same name always moves me.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 12:41 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #21 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Recessional</i> is the Dorsai Hymn in Gordon Dickson's Childe Cycle.</p>

<p>The other Kipling one in this vein is his <i>Hymn Before Action</i>:</p>

<blockquote>
The earth is full of anger,<br />
The seas are dark with wrath,<br />
The Nations in their harness<br />
Go up against our path:<br /> 
Ere yet we loose the legions --<br />
Ere yet we draw the blade,<br />
Jehovah of the Thunders,<br />
Lord God of Battles, aid!<br />
<br />
High lust and froward bearing,<br /> 
Proud heart, rebellious brow --<br /> 
Deaf ear and soul uncaring,<br /> 
We seek Thy mercy now!<br /> 
The sinner that forswore Thee,<br /> 
The fool that passed Thee by,<br /> 
Our times are known before Thee --<br /> 
Lord, grant us strength to die!<br /> 
<br />
For those who kneel beside us<br /> 
At altars not Thine own,<br /> 
Who lack the lights that guide us,<br /> 
Lord, let their faith atone.<br /> 
If wrong we did to call them,<br /> 
By honour bound they came;<br /> 
Let not Thy Wrath befall them,<br /> 
But deal to us the blame.<br /> 
<br />
From panic, pride, and terror,<br /> 
Revenge that knows no rein,<br /> 
Light haste and lawless error,<br /> 
Protect us yet again.<br /> 
Cloak Thou our undeserving,<br /> 
Make firm the shuddering breath,<br /> 
In silence and unswerving<br /> 
To taste Thy lesser death!<br /> 
<br />
Ah, Mary pierced with sorrow,<br /> 
Remember, reach and save<br /> 
The soul that comes to-morrow<br /> 
Before the God that gave!<br /> 
Since each was born of woman,<br /> 
For each at utter need --<br /> 
True comrade and true foeman --<br /> 
Madonna, intercede!<br /> 
<br />
E'en now their vanguard gathers,<br /> 
E'en now we face the fray --<br /> 
As Thou didst help our fathers,<br /> 
Help Thou our host to-day!<br /> 
Fulfilled of signs and wonders,<br /> 
In life, in death made clear --<br /> 
Jehovah of the Thunders,<br /> 
Lord God of Battles, hear!<br /> 
</blockquote>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 12:45 PM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #22 from Dave Langford</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Langford on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not a hymn, just a brief squib by G.K. Chesterton which keeps coming to mind in times of war ...</p>

<p><i>Elegy in a Country Churchyard</i></p>

<p>The men that worked for England <br />
They have their graves at home: <br />
And bees and birds of England <br />
About the cross can roam. </p>

<p>But they that fought for England, <br />
Following a falling star, <br />
Alas, alas for England <br />
They have their graves afar. </p>

<p>And they that rule in England, <br />
In stately conclave met, <br />
Alas, alas for England <br />
They have no graves as yet.</p>

<p><br />
Dave</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  1:17 PM by Dave Langford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #23 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave...I wonder if we could adapt that for America now.  </p>

<p>In other news, I just signed up for NaNoWriMo. *screams in terror, faints*</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  1:20 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:20:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #24 from James</title>
         <description>comment from James on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ajay:</p>

<p>There are at least three tunes that I know of to which Recessional is sung.  The best-known of them -- and the original one, I believe -- is Melita, the tune used for "Eternal Father strong to save"; the Canadian Anglican Hymn Book had a tune <i>called</i> Recessional, written for the text in the early 20th century.  There is one other that I've heard of, but never heard.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  1:39 PM by James&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #25 from Michael Turyn</title>
         <description>comment from Michael Turyn on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about: (apologies, GKC)<br />
<blockquote>The men that built America<br />
They have their graves at home:<br />
And bees and birds, America's<br />
About their markers roam.<br />
</blockquote><blockquote><br />
Some, told, "Defend America,"<br />
Followed a ragged cheer<br />
To fall, far from America<br />
And then return&egrave;d here<br />
</blockquote><blockquote><br />
And they that rule America,<br />
In stately conclave met,<br />
Alas, alas, America<br />
They have no graves as yet.</blockquote></p>

<p>On another topic, I'll argue that birds being handled by people in importation are birds more likely to come into contact with people later on---I think all parrots scratch and bite, if given a chance, and their wastes are handled by humans---making a quarantine on them a good idea.    Caged birds also spend a great deal of time near other caged birds.</p>

<p>Of course, that wouldn't be enough to protect one of our cats (the evil one), who this year was averaging a bird a week in August.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  1:58 PM by Michael Turyn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #26 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr Langford - nice one. The verses I keep thinking of during this war are Macaulay's:</p>

<p>...Then up spoke brave Horatius, <br />
The Captain of the Gate;<br />
"To every man upon this earth <br />
Death cometh soon or late;<br />
And how can man die better<br />
Than facing fearful odds <br />
For the ashes of his fathers <br />
And the temples of his gods?"</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>"Horatius," said the Consul,<br />
"As thou sayest so let it be."<br />
And straight against that great array <br />
Forth went the dauntless three.<br />
For Romans in Rome's quarrel<br />
Spared neither land nor gold,<br />
Nor son, nor wife, nor limb nor life<br />
In the brave days of old.</p>

<p>Then none was for a party;<br />
Then all were for the state;<br />
Then the great man helped the poor <br />
And the poor man loved the great;<br />
Then goods were fairly portioned, <br />
And spoils were fairly sold; <br />
The Romans were like brothers<br />
In the brave days of old.</p>

<p>Now Roman is to Roman<br />
More hateful than the foe,<br />
And the Tribunes beard the high<br />
As the Fathers grind the low;<br />
As we wax hot in faction,<br />
In battle we wax cold,<br />
Wherefore men fight not as they fought<br />
In the brave days of old.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  3:05 PM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #27 from Melissa Singer</title>
         <description>comment from Melissa Singer on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of ex-parrots:</p>

<p>B&N (at least the one in my neighborhood) has that coffee table book, The Pythons (the Pythons on The Pythons) on the remainder tables for $10 (down from the original $60).  </p>

<p>I've realized I must go back and buy a second copy for my brother . . . .</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  3:16 PM by Melissa Singer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #28 from Sisuile</title>
         <description>comment from Sisuile on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the hymns I favor are those of triumph and thanks...but this one seems apt both to the times and the discussion</p>

<p><br />
1.	The day is past and over, <br />
	all thanks, O Lord, to thee! <br />
	We pray thee that offenseless <br />
	the hours of dark may be. <br />
	O Jesus, keep us in thy sight, <br />
	and guard us through the coming night. </p>

<p>2.	The joys of day are over; <br />
	we lift our hearts to thee, <br />
	and call on thee that sinless <br />
	the hours of dark may be. <br />
	O Jesus, make their darkness light, <br />
	and guard us through the coming night. </p>

<p>3.	The toils of day are over; <br />
	we raise our hymn to thee, <br />
	and ask that free from peril <br />
	the hours of dark may be. <br />
	O Jesus, keep us in thy sight, <br />
	and guard us through the coming night. </p>

<p>4.	Be thou our souls' preserver, <br />
	O God, for thou dost know <br />
	how many are the perils <br />
	through which we have to go. <br />
	Lord Jesus Christ, O hear our call, <br />
	and guard and save us from them all.</p>

<p>-John Mason Neale</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  3:29 PM by Sisuile&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #29 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But - why limit it to Christian hymns? Here's Kipling's 'Hymn of the XXX Legion":</p>

<p>Mithras, God of the Morning, our trumpets waken the Wall!<br />
‘Rome is above the Nations, but Thou art over all!’<br />
Now as the names are answered, and the guards are marched away,<br />
Mithras, also a soldier, give us strength for the day! </p>

<p>Mithras, God of the Noontide, the heather swims in the heat.<br />
Our helmets scorch our foreheads, our sandals burn our feet.<br />
Now in the ungirt hour—now ere we blink and drowse,<br />
Mithras, also a soldier, keep us true to our vows! </p>

<p>Mithras, God of the Sunset, low on the Western main—<br />
Thou descending immortal, immortal to rise again!<br />
Now when the watch is ended, now when the wine is drawn,<br />
Mithras, also a soldier, keep us pure till the dawn! </p>

<p>Mithras, God of the Midnight, here where the great bull dies,<br />
Look on thy children in darkness. Oh take our sacrifice!<br />
Many roads thou hast fashioned—all of them lead to the Light,<br />
Mithras, also a soldier, teach us to die aright! <br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  3:52 PM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #30 from cd</title>
         <description>comment from cd on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ajay: I've heard that one set to Terry Tucker's <i>Overture To The Sun</i>. A combination that works quite well, actually.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  4:04 PM by cd&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #31 from Joanna</title>
         <description>comment from Joanna on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it's more the tunes than the words that usually get me - the rhythmic version "ein feste burg" is way more lively than most hymns have any right to be. and deo gracias (the agincourt hymn) is spine crawlingly gorgeous when sung acappella - all those open intervals.</p>

<p>when i heard "jerusalem" in a star trek: ds9 episode, i was certain i'd heard it before somewhere, but i still can't figure it out. maybe the tune was reused in some other hymn.</p>

<p>after singing john rutter's "gloria" in high school, i find i can recognize almost anything he's written. the gloria itself always makes me feel off balance - it was in 5/4 in several places, and we learned the rhythm by stomping on the accented beats.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  4:32 PM by Joanna&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #32 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xopher wrote:</p>

<p><i>In other news, I just signed up for NaNoWriMo. *screams in terror, faints*</i></p>

<p>Congratulations.  I will be attempting it again this year, also.  Hopefully in more style than last year, when I limped home on the last day.  Anyone else?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  4:48 PM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #33 from Jo Walton</title>
         <description>comment from Jo Walton on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very <i>religious</i> hymns you seem to have around here. Damn few secular humanist ones.</p>

<p>Under a sky wide open<br />
Alone on an empty plain<br />
With distant stars far from us <br />
We find out what we remain.</p>

<p>When wrong and when right are choices<br />
Enforced not with hell's hot pain<br />
With no hope of heaven's rewarding<br />
We choose, and we choose again.</p>

<p>Some lie, some kill, some plunder,<br />
Some struggle with might and main,<br />
Some go on each day regardless<br />
Some crack underneath the strain.</p>

<p>Some pause here to help a stranger,<br />
Some act with no thought of gain.<br />
Some seek out mysterious nature<br />
To learn and to see it plain.</p>

<p>Under a sky wide open<br />
Alone on an empty plain,<br />
We live, and we go on living<br />
To choose, and to choose again.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  5:15 PM by Jo Walton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 17:15:54 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #34 from candle</title>
         <description>comment from candle on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies to GKC and, more importantly, to Michael Turyn - but I felt I wanted to write my own version of that squib. The sentiment seems to have changed in the process.</p>

<p> The people that built America:<br />
 they have their graves at home<br />
 and the bees and birds of America<br />
 about their markers roam.</p>

<p> And they that fought for America<br />
 and fell on a distant shore:<br />
 their graves are here in America<br />
 and are honoured all the more.</p>

<p> And they that rule America,<br />
 no American should forget:<br />
 alas for the good of America,<br />
 they have no graves as yet.</p>

<p>Apologies for seeming to speak on behalf of America, when even my spellings reveal me as a Briton.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  6:13 PM by candle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #35 from candle</title>
         <description>comment from candle on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jo - that's a great hymn. Where is it from? (Or is it original?)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  6:15 PM by candle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #36 from Aquila</title>
         <description>comment from Aquila on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Australia and New Zealand use The Recessional sung to Melita on Anzac Day - Lest we forget</p>

<p><a href="http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/recessional.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/recessional.htm</a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  6:38 PM by Aquila&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 18:38:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #37 from Jo Walton</title>
         <description>comment from Jo Walton on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Candle, if I quote, I attribute. </p>

<p>I made it up, feeling a need. I think it was all that Kipling.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  6:56 PM by Jo Walton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #38 from Kip W</title>
         <description>comment from Kip W on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd be happy to see the Jules Verne film again. My triumph in finding "Lemonade Joe" has been documented some months back. I was just bemoaning, somewhere, my lifelong inability to find the crazed Czech "Cinderella" I watched with my sisters almost four decades ago. "Coo-kit-y Coo! There's blood on the shoe! This is not the girl for you." My favorite bit is where the bad puddingheads (the bumbling henchmen of the Evil broad) get their comeuppance at the end -- they have to eat sausages, while the crowd taunts them. "Eat them! Eat those sausages! Ha ha! Look at those pudding heads eat those sausages, I tell you!"</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  7:13 PM by Kip W&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 19:13:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #39 from punkrockhockeymom</title>
         <description>comment from punkrockhockeymom on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xopher and Jules:</p>

<p>Okay, well, I've been thinking about it, mostly to get my mind off of, well, life in general, and to force me to practice Uncle Jim's "butt in chair" method.  But I've been worried that I'll just take it on, not follow through, and hate myself in the morning.  </p>

<p>I guess the worst that could happen is that I could get busy at the office, have to travel half way across the country for depositions and not make it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I could feasibly create a pattern of writing every morning before work.  That could be worth it whether I make it or not.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  7:36 PM by punkrockhockeymom&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #40 from Clifton Royston</title>
         <description>comment from Clifton Royston on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jules, Xopher:<br />
 OK, I'm with you.  I've got to sign up as yet, but I'm decided.  I just hope I can get enough contract programming and computer consulting work to pay the bills next month...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  7:51 PM by Clifton Royston&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #41 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.etereaestudios.com/docs_html/snakes_htm/snakes_index.htm" rel="nofollow">Snakes</a>, this really cool animation based on an Escher woodcut, </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005  9:31 PM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 21:31:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #42 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joanna, there's a version of "Jerusalem" on Emerson, Lake, and Palmer's <i>Brain Salad Surgery</i>, so you may have heard it there and just been unable to place it in that context when you heard it on Trek.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 10:08 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #43 from James</title>
         <description>comment from James on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are above a certain age, the most likely place to have run into <i>Jerusalem</i> would be in the movie <i>Chariots of Fire</i>.</p>

<p>As far as I know, there are no other words that have ever been set to Parry's tune, except in pastiche or parody.  Some of his other pieces are similar in general style (e.g. the Coronation anthem <i>I was glad</i>) but are not so similar as to be confusing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 10:11 PM by James&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #44 from Dave Luckett</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Luckett on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think it was all that Kipling</i></p>

<p>Yes. It's odd, that. I mean, look at this community. In all fairness, throwbacks like me aside, there's no real risk that anyone would mistake the mob here for a bunch of Godandmycountry rednecks. So why Kipling? I mean, Orwell more or less took him to the shredders sixty years ago. Bad good poet, he said. Jingoism and brutality, he said.</p>

<p>I don't say that, but remember, I'm a throwback.  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 10:33 PM by Dave Luckett&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:33:41 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #45 from Linkmeister</title>
         <description>comment from Linkmeister on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why Kipling? Because he's facile with words, and he gets dialect pretty well, maybe?  I remember reciting "Gunga Din" in full while delivering my Wednesday morning newspapers 40 years ago; it had an appeal for my 12-year-old self.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 10:52 PM by Linkmeister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 22:52:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #46 from Paula Kate</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Kate on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am partial to "Oak and Ash and Thorn" (Kipling's Tree Song) as performed by John Roberts and Tony Barrand on their album Dark Ships in the Forest, myself.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:04 PM by Paula Kate&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:04:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #47 from Sisuile</title>
         <description>comment from Sisuile on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"sing, Oak and Ash and Thorn"</p>

<p>I remember being taught this one in grade school because behind the school were some woods, left there for the nature trail. And it was a great joke, as cruel kids do, to dare people to sit between the pin oak and the ash, where the thorn bush had gotten pushed back. If you weren't english and sat there, so they said, it was unlucky and something would happen to you.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:18 PM by Sisuile&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:18:09 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #48 from Sarah Avery</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah Avery on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'll be doing NaNoWriMo, too.  I'm hoping the crazy pace will make it easier for me to write a short book this time.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:39 PM by Sarah Avery&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:39:07 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #49 from amysue</title>
         <description>comment from amysue on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On an other topic entirely, Rosa Parks has passed away at 92.  She and so many others, known and unknown, had the courage to stand up for civil rights and to envision and create a future where my family and many others could exist in (relative) peace.  </p>

<p>I'm just hoping we don't abandon those great strides forward and return to a world of bigotry and hatred to anyone different (read, not white or the "right" flavor of Christian).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:39 PM by amysue&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #50 from Magenta Griffith</title>
         <description>comment from Magenta Griffith on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seem to recall a version of "Jerusalem" at the end of the Monty Python sketch about buying a bed. If you mean the Blake poem set to music...</p>

<p>"And did those feet in ancient time<br />
Walk upon England's mountains green?<br />
And was the holy Lamb of God<br />
On England's pleasant pastures seen?"</p>

<p>Not being CoE, I don't know the words very well.</p>

<p>Xopher, I too will be joining the madness that is Nanowrimo. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:54 PM by Magenta Griffith&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #51 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 24.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sisuile wrote:<br />
<i>Most of the hymns I favor are those of triumph and thanks...but this one seems apt both to the times and the discussion</i></p>

<p>The 23rd psalm seems apt as well, although I always hear the rather lovely descant when I think of it.</p>

<p>"Yea though I walk through shadows vale<br />
Yet will I fear no ill<br />
For thou art with me <br />
and thy rod and staff me comfort still"</p>

<p>As to why mostly christian hymns?  In my case it's simply the music that comes to mind most immediately, doubtless because a great deal of secular music deals with - well - <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006448.html#006448" rel="nofollow">themes of an immediately personal nature</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 24, 2005 11:56 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 24 Oct 2005 23:56:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #52 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Magenta Griffith mused:</p>

<p>"And did those feet in ancient time<br />
Walk upon England's mountains green?<br />
And was the holy Lamb of God<br />
On England's pleasant pastures seen?"</p>

<p>Being brought up CoE certainly made it easier to remember the lyrics - but we were put to memorizing Blake in grade school.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:02 AM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #53 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>'...the crazed Czech "Cinderella"...'</p>

<p>New York City's independant stations used to run stuff along these lines, usually on holiday mornings and afternoons. I seem to remember a Cinderella, but assumed it was an Italian production. There was a live-action Puss n' Boots for sure. Puss spent a lot of time fast-forwarding through the countryside.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:05 AM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #54 from Dave Bell</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Bell on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kipling's <i>Recessional</i> has several tunes associated with it. Peter Bellamy recorded one version, and there's another on a recent Leslie Fish album. Peter Bellamy found plausible Kipling-contemporary tunes for a lot of the verse,and Kipling is known to have had tunes in mind when he wrote some of his verse.</p>

<p>I wonder if one of the reasons for its appeal is that the foundations are history, and it's a prayer to a not-very-specific deity that that we don't forget history.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  3:41 AM by Dave Bell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #55 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orwell didn't exactly shred Kipling - as far as I remember his splendid essay (written, as I recall, as an introduction to a Kipling anthology) he said:</p>

<p>1. Kipling's not a great artist by any means.<br />
2. But dammit, he writes memorable verse. Not poetry; verse.<br />
3. A lot of the people who like - and dislike - him haven't really read him very closely if at all. (They misunderstand things like 'the White Man's Burden' and think they are pro-Empire. Idiots.)<br />
4. Kipling wasn't perfect - he was terribly patronising towards the soldiers he wrote about - more than he was to the natives, in some ways.<br />
5. And, of course, he refused to contemplate that the Empire might be morally wrong. Which it is.<br />
6. But on an individual level he was a moral man and his heart was in the right place. And, again, damn him, he wrote well.</p>

<p>Why Kipling? Because he was basically a humanist. He believed in people, of whatever colour; he didn't believe they were all alike, or even similar, but he believed they were all capable of great good. (He was nominally a Christian as well, but in a rather hands-off British way; not sure he took the creed very seriously. The tradition, yes.) He believed that things could get better, even if they were run by flawed people - who else could they be run by? And he abhorred not war in itself, but dominance. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  4:25 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #56 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Time that is intolerant<br />
Of the brave and innocent<br />
And indifferent in a week<br />
To a beautiful physique,</i></p>

<p><i>Worships language and forgives<br />
Everyone by whom it lives;<br />
Pardons cowardice, conceit,<br />
Lays its honours at their feet.</i></p>

<p><i>Time that with this strange excuse<br />
Pardoned Kipling and his views,<br />
And will pardon Paul Claudel,<br />
Pardons him for writing well.</i></p>

<p>Auden, of course, "Elegy for W. B. Yeats," and yes, I know there are variants, and no, it is very late and I am not going to explain who Paul Claudel is just now.  You have an Internet spread before you, like a vast cybernetic forebespready thing; gigapythonesses, no waiting.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  4:53 AM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #57 from Epacris</title>
         <description>comment from Epacris on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remembering that there is a wide variety of faiths represented within the people here, it was an intriguing thought that perhaps some of them might like to suggest variations on <br />
<a href="http://www.devoted1.com/" rel="nofollow">this iPod Mod</a>, which I was pointed to from the estimable <a href="http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/2005/10/it-was-twenty-years-ago-today.asp" rel="nofollow">Mr Gaiman's journal</a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  5:01 AM by Epacris&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #58 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Orwell also -- in the process of tying himself into the knots that "good bad poet" required -- noted that there was a sense of duty to Kipling's writing, even if it was duty in a bad cause.</p>

<p>Anyone who wants to claim Kipling's not actually a poet has to go read <i>Mary Gloster</i> and explain why it doesn't count.  There's a lot else, too, but that one is probably the toughest.</p>

<p>I don't think it was all that simple, myself; Empires are disasters because they conflate the military and the economic -- use military power to force market access and maintain a particular social order, until the whole thing crashes hard -- but this is only really well understood as mechanism in the last, oh, thirty years, maybe.  What <i>else</i> you do is still an open question.</p>

<p>Kipling didn't have an answer to that; he certainly wasn't blind to the costs of it <b>or</b> the certain eventual fate -- that is, after all, what <i>Recessional</i> is about, and not just <i>Recessional</i>, it's not an abberation in his writing -- of Empire.  He was on the side of doing the job, and not stinting the work, and there are a lot of people on that side in any functioning technical culture.</p>

<p>Figuring out what the job <i>is</i>, well, I think that's there, too, as a question and a problem and a necessary duty, in Kipling's work; it's not an easy question and it doesn't get easy answers.</p>

<p>Which, after all, even Orwell acknowledged it didn't have.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  5:58 AM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #59 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Absolutely right. The difference between Kipling and Orwell is that Kipling said 'whatever the morals, it is worse - to run an empire badly than well, so run it well' and Orwell said 'I refuse to associate myself with it at all'.<br />
When I think of Kipling, I think of friends of mine who have gone off to the war (and returned) without believing in its purpose, or even in the possibility of eventual victory, but simply because you cannot leave a job to be badly done.</p>

<p>And the bitter side of his writing is missed - some of his postwar writing in particular would put him in with Sassoon, if he hadn't written anything before 1915.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  6:34 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 06:34:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #60 from Epacris</title>
         <description>comment from Epacris on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kipling's <i>Recessional</i> is often used as a hymn in <a href="http://www.rsa.org.nz/remem/anzac_today.html" rel="nofollow">ANZAC Day</a> services (<a href="http://www2.tpgi.com.au/users/irener/Anzac%20Day.htm" rel="nofollow">This page</a>, for example, lists it along with Abide with Me, O Valiant Hearts, and Lead Kindly Light.)  The <a href="http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/recessional.htm" rel="nofollow">Australian War Memorial Encyclopaedia page</a> on it says that it was "composed just in time for use in the commemoration of the dead from the South African War" (aka the Boer War) and used as a hymn "set to the tune <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~davcooke/paddywax/melita.mid" rel="nofollow"><i>Melita</i></a>" (MIDI version played by a small brass ensemble, as often found in local suburban or country towns, <a href="http://members.ozemail.com.au/~davcooke/odds.htm" rel="nofollow">via</a>)<br />
And I agree that his image is, as so often, only a shallow caricature of the depth of his writings.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  6:46 AM by Epacris&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #61 from Dave Bell</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Bell on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The tune <b>Melita</b> may be better known as the tune for the Navy Hymn.</p>

<p>Which surprised me a little, but it does seem to fit.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  8:14 AM by Dave Bell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #62 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, well, well... Jonathan Carroll's <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/10/24/DDGQCDVI451.DTL" rel="nofollow">column</a> in today's San Francisco Chronicle is about fantasy series and how they actually counteract modern dumbing-down trends. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  9:07 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #63 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uh, Serge, Jon Carroll's column was in yesterday's (Monday's) Chron, for those of us who still have it in our recycling bins. But thank you for the link....</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 10:21 AM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #64 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>'Eternal Father, strong to save' was a hymn before it was the Navy Hymn, I think; I've heard it sung very seriously indeed by a Free Church congregation of fishermen on the edge of the world (Western Isles; very odd part of the country. Look at Ken MacLeod.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 10:23 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:23:19 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #65 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. Sorry, Richard, about the mistake with when that Carroll column came out. I found it quite interesting that he wasn't talking about the more literary fantasy novels but about what's been denigrated as <i>doorstop</i> fantasies. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 10:28 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #66 from Sisuile</title>
         <description>comment from Sisuile on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since this is an open post, and this is the day, and we seem to be on a poetry kick...</p>

<p> WESTMORELAND. O that we now had here<br />
But one ten thousand of those men in England<br />
That do no work to-day!</p>

<p>KING. What's he that wishes so?<br />
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin;<br />
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow<br />
To do our country loss; and if to live,<br />
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.<br />
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.<br />
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,<br />
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;<br />
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;<br />
Such outward things dwell not in my desires.<br />
But if it be a sin to covet honour,<br />
I am the most offending soul alive.<br />
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England.<br />
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour<br />
As one man more methinks would share from me<br />
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!<br />
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,<br />
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,<br />
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,<br />
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;<br />
We would not die in that man's company<br />
That fears his fellowship to die with us.<br />
This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.<br />
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,<br />
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,<br />
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.<br />
He that shall live this day, and see old age,<br />
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,<br />
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'<br />
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,<br />
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'<br />
Old men forget; yet all shall be forgot,<br />
But he'll remember, with advantages,<br />
What feats he did that day. Then shall our names,<br />
Familiar in his mouth as household words-<br />
Harry the King, Bedford and Exeter,<br />
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester-<br />
Be in their flowing cups freshly rememb'red.<br />
This story shall the good man teach his son;<br />
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,<br />
From this day to the ending of the world,<br />
But we in it shall be remembered-<br />
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;<br />
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me<br />
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,<br />
This day shall gentle his condition;<br />
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed<br />
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,<br />
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks<br />
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 11:20 AM by Sisuile&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #67 from Lori Coulson</title>
         <description>comment from Lori Coulson on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, but my favorite lines of _Jerusalem_ are the ones Michener quotes in _Space_:</p>

<p>"...Bring me my bow of buring gold,<br />
Bring me my arrows of desire,<br />
Bring me my spear!<br />
O, clouds unfold --<br />
Bring me my chariot of fire..."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 11:34 AM by Lori Coulson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:34:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #68 from David Moles</title>
         <description>comment from David Moles on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Poetry, is it? On a different note, then, in case y'all haven't seen this yet:</p>

<p><i>Wha be tha carl wha ne wolden flee<br />
Whan peril bene all aboughte?<br />
<a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/geoff_chaucer/7400.html" rel="nofollow">SHAFT!</a></i></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 11:42 AM by David Moles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:42:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #69 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serge, I'm relatively ignorant of the fantasy genre. What are examples of its literary side. And perhaps more important, what's worth reading? The snow's about to fly in my neck o' the woods, and I'm working on getting a cord or two of books laid in for the coming winter's evenings.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 11:44 AM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:44:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #70 from Michael Turyn</title>
         <description>comment from Michael Turyn on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1.) Orwell also expressed a preference for Kipling over rich anti-imperialists who lived off Empire.</p>

<p>2.) I first heard <i>Jerusalem</i> in that <i>Monty Python</i> "buying a mattress sketch"---singing it whilst standing in a fish tank is the only way to get Mr Lambert to remove the bucket from his head after someone's said 'mattress' to him.</p>

<p>3.) Regardless of version or scanning variation, the Chesterton poem could be sung to (wait for it!) <i>County Down</i>, a.k.a. <i>Hie Thee to Kolob</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 11:46 AM by Michael Turyn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:46:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #71 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd recommend Patricia McKillip's <b>Harpist in the Wind</b>, which came out around 1980. There is Emma Bull's <b>War for the Oaks</b>, from 1987, I think. Both of them should be available somewhere, even if only in a used-book store.</p>

<p>As for the more modern stuff, I couldn't really tell because I focus mainly on SF these days. But Locus could point you in the right direction. Or maybe other visitors to this site have suggestions for you.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:05 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:05:40 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #72 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><br />
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9808309/" rel="nofollow">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9808309/</a></p>

<p>I can see Macdonald hitting the ceiling.... </p>

<p>"Confession allowed in alleged plot to kill Bush<br />
"Federal judge rules prosecutors can use statement despite torture claim"<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:07 PM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:07:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #73 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sure the Agincourt Hymn was "Non Nobis."  Shows what happens when you listen to Kenneth Brannagh.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:23 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:23:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #74 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a term rife in Massachusetts years ago, that got pinned onto Dukakis in his unsuccessful Presidential bi, "Tax and spend Democrats."  But what is destroying the USA at the present is Spend and Borrow Republic/r/a/p/s/ans.  Correction, make that Spend, Borrow, Spend More, Borrow More, Cut Taxes on the Rich, and Make the Rich the Lienholders. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:27 PM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:27:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #75 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They don't give up, even when they're wrong:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/politics/25detain.html" rel="nofollow">White House Seeks Exception in Abuse Ban</a></p>

<p><i>WASHINGTON, Oct. 24 - Stepping up a confrontation with the Senate over the handling of detainees, the White House is insisting that the Central Intelligence Agency be exempted from a proposed ban on abusive treatment of suspected Qaeda militants and other terrorists.</i></p>

<p>So will they apologize when the suspected terrorists turn out to be innocent? Will they actually mean it if they <i>do</i> apologize?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:49 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:49:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #76 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serge, thanks for the tips. Any recommendations from the science-fiction side of things? (I've been dipping back into the genre over the last year or so, after having been away from it for several decades, but my luck so far has pretty much been hit-or-miss.) Even door-stoppers are welcome, as long as they're good stories well told....</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:52 PM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:52:40 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #77 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arg.  I meant to write "I was sure..."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 12:57 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 12:57:46 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #78 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anything by the late Clifford Simak, Richard. The first two Riverworld novels by Philip Jose Farmer, <b>To Your Scattered Bodies Go</b> and <b>The Fabulous Riverboat</b>. CJ Cherryh's <b>Faded Sun </b> trilogy and I'm not saying that just because it led to my wife and I meeting each other.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  1:01 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:01:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #79 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Serge. I read much of Simak's and Farmer's work back in the sixties, and very much enjoyed it. Guess it's time to revisit their books.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  1:11 PM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:11:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #80 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CJ Cherryh's Faded Sun trilogy</p>

<p>Pretty near anything Cherryh has written will do for me (most of her fantasy doesn't work for me, though). The <b>Foreigner</b> series, for one. (I'm looking forward to finding out what the aiji-dowager and nand' Bren are going to do to fix the rebels permanently. I'm sure Cajeiri will figure into the solution.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  1:14 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:14:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #81 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Among more recent writers, I'd recommend Stephen Baxter. NOT <b>Moonseed</b>, which is one of the few books I've wanted to throw again a wall when I was done with it. But <b>The Time Ships</b> knocked my socks off.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  1:27 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:27:45 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #82 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See, YMMV.  I'm a Cherryh fan, but <i>Foreigner</i> left me cold.  And bored.  So I never picked up any of the others in that series.  And the whole <i>Fortress of X, Where X is Anything You Care to Name</i> series was the clearest example of too-famous-to-edit I've ever seen.  I just couldn't stand them after the first couple.  They could have been shortened by a third and been better for it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I loved <i>Hammerfall.</i>  It's written with desert austerity, a very appropriate choice IMO, and there's an actual plot with actual events.  Ate that up.  Can't wait for more of the same from her!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  1:48 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:48:57 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #83 from Julie L.</title>
         <description>comment from Julie L. on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile, as we draw closer toward winter solstice, I have been gobsmacked by some <a href="http://www.georgetown.edu/faculty/ballc/oe/rudolph.html" rel="nofollow">seasonal poetry</a> discovered elseweb:</p>

<p>Incipit gestis Rudolphi rangifer tarandus </p>

<p>Hwæt, Hrodulf readnosa hrandeor -- <br />
Næfde þæt nieten unsciende næsðyrlas! <br />
[etc.]</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  1:49 PM by Julie L.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:49:14 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #84 from David Moles</title>
         <description>comment from David Moles on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I liked the first <i>Foreigner</i>, but somewhere around there -- also somewhere around the third or fourth <i>Fortress</i> book -- all of Cherryh's new stuff (<i>Hammerfall</i> included) started to run together for me.</p>

<p>I think it was a bad sign when she turned away from the tragic implications of the set-up she had with the early <i>Fortress</i> books to write yet another "our heroes resolve all misunderstandings and conflicts among themselves and go on to defeat some faceless bad guys we've never been introduced to" ending.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  2:28 PM by David Moles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:28:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #85 from Kate Nepveu</title>
         <description>comment from Kate Nepveu on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going back to an <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004560.html" rel="nofollow">old thread</a>, <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/25/national/25polygamy.html?8hpib" rel="nofollow">Short Creek/Colorado City is in the NY Times</a> (reg. may be required, bugmenot, etc.)again. Sadly, things don't seem to be improving.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  2:46 PM by Kate Nepveu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:46:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #86 from Harriet</title>
         <description>comment from Harriet on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Moles opined:</p>

<p><i>I think it was a bad sign when [Cherryh] turned away from the tragic implications of the set-up she had with the early Fortress books to write yet another "our heroes resolve all misunderstandings and conflicts among themselves and go on to defeat some faceless bad guys we've never been introduced to" ending.<br />
</i><br />
It ain't over til it's over, as they say: you do know she's written another Fortress book, and for all I could tell from speedreading her online journal, that might not be the last one (anyone have better knowledge?) I'm not sure if it has a pub date yet, but it will be on my buy-in-hardcover list when it appears.</p>

<p>Harriet</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  2:49 PM by Harriet&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:49:07 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #87 from Tim Walters</title>
         <description>comment from Tim Walters on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard,</p>

<p>Here's my ever-growing <a href="http://www.doubtfulpalace.com/mustread.html" rel="nofollow">list of favorites</a>.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  2:59 PM by Tim Walters&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 14:59:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #88 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure where this belongs as a post, but there are people in DC I'd like to see Intent filed on.</p>

<p>I wonder where Bujold is going to take the Chalion series. Or maybe if: it's not at all clear if this is an ongoing set of books.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  3:16 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:16:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #89 from Linkmeister</title>
         <description>comment from Linkmeister on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Learn something every day. Mr. Walters, I had no idea that Ellen Kushner wrote anything other than her scripts for <i>Sound and Spirit</i>, which I enjoy every week.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  3:23 PM by Linkmeister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:23:24 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #90 from Clark E Myers</title>
         <description>comment from Clark E Myers on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Could read Cherryh on Kipling.</p>

<p>Seems to me there is an argument that Kipling is to MakingLight as Heinlein is to RASFW - a perennial McGuffin at worst and something of weight at best but always good for both starting and ending conversation as half the comments repeat?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  3:59 PM by Clark E Myers&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 15:59:24 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #91 from Lenora Rose</title>
         <description>comment from Lenora Rose on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P J Evans: Bujold has said there will be one book per deity. (And since she's obviously included the Bastard, that's five books, not the four the other side posits.) She hasn't specified otherwise how closely they'll be related.</p>

<p>Linkmeister: Kushner wrote Swordspoint, Thomas the Rhymer (A novel based on that and other ballads, not the ballad), several short stories, co-wrote The Fall of the Kings (Which is in the same world as Swordspoint, a generation and a bit later, but is not a sequel in traditional sense,) and has other stuff forthcoming.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  5:05 PM by Lenora Rose&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:05:05 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #92 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lenora is right.  I heard her say that at Gaylaxicon.  Btw, she also made a point of saying that the reason she chose to GOH Gaylaxicon when she'd turned down so many others was that she made the decision right after the 2004 election, when the Bad Guys made a rallying cry out of being anti-Gay, and she wanted to make it absolutely clear where she stood!</p>

<p>I love that woman.  Her books first, but she's just such a cool person.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  5:17 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 17:17:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #93 from jhlipton</title>
         <description>comment from jhlipton on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kipling:  Recently watched <i>The Man Who Would Be King</i> again ("Danny and Peachy are alive and well and living in South Kafiristan!").  It made me a little uncomforatble with the deoiction of the "natives", but it's such a strong story and the actors so terrific, that I think most people can get past that.</p>

<p><br />
Cherryh:  I saw a "Faded Sun" entry at a WorldCon where Cherryh was a GOH.  Absolutely stunning.  BTW, I love her Russian Fantasy work as well.</p>

<p>I've a long list of favorite SF and F -- from Tanith Lee's wonderfully decandent fantasy to Sturgeon and Davidson's blend of SF and F to McKillip and **ANYTHING** by LeGuin (I just read a collection of "mainstream" stories... thud!)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005  8:36 PM by jhlipton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 20:36:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #94 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ursula LeGuin, Patricia McKillip, Peter Beagle, Guy Gavriel Kay, Barbara Hambly, Philip Pullman, C. J. Cherryh, Peter Dickinson, Ellen Kushner, John Bellairs, Terri Windling, Jonathan Carroll, and some guy named Tolkien...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 10:32 PM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:32:59 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #95 from Luthe</title>
         <description>comment from Luthe on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to know what the Intelligent Design folks think of that Guiness ad (the one in the Particles). </p>

<p>I, personally, think that the FSM approves of it. Beer volcano, anyone?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 10:43 PM by Luthe&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:43:43 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #96 from Sarah Avery</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah Avery on 25.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite literary fantasy finds this year were Hope Mirrlees's <i>Lud-in-the-Mist</i>  (yeah, it's from 1926, but I only discovered it once Cold Spring brought it back out), and Angelica Gorodischer's <i>Kalpa Imperial</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 25, 2005 10:55 PM by Sarah Avery&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 25 Oct 2005 22:55:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #97 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's a moron in the White House,<br />
He's brought us many things,<br />
Big deficits a war or two,<br />
What a warlord of the rings,<br />
When the water hit New Orleans,<br />
And the levees didn't hold,<br />
His handpicked FEMA flunky,<br />
Was too busy to be told. </p>

<p>Run, run, away<br />
Run, run away,<br />
There's a moron in the White House<br />
And his friends have come to stay</p>

<p>There's a moron in the White House,<br />
With a record full of wrecks,<br />
With business fraud forgiven,<br />
And Abramoff's pol-stacked decks,<br />
There's the stench of greed, corruption,<br />
And the holy hypocrites,<br />
But the moron in the White House,<br />
He sees nothing but his grits.</p>

<p>Run, run, away<br />
Run, run away,<br />
There's a moron in the White House<br />
And his friends have come to stay</p>

<p>There's a moron in the White House,<br />
Makes rich get richer still,<br />
While the middle class goes under,<br />
And the poor get bigger bills,<br />
Out to China go the fact'ries,<br />
With fact'ries go the jobs,<br />
But the moron he gets richer,<br />
With the robber barons' robs.</p>

<p>Run, run, away<br />
Run, run away,<br />
There's a moron in the White House<br />
And his friends have come to stay</p>

<p>There's a moron in the White House,<br />
When shall we be rid of him,<br />
And his lying vicious buddies,<br />
Drive the country to the rim,<br />
Need a revolution brewing,<br />
Get the rottens stinkers out,<br />
And take and toss their asses,<br />
In jail parole without! </p>

<p>Run, run away,<br />
Run, run way,<br />
There a moron in the White House,<br />
Throw the Bush Gang out today!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 12:44 AM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 00:44:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #98 from Clifton Royston</title>
         <description>comment from Clifton Royston on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here I was trying to think what to mention for good quality stack-em-up series SF, for someone who hasn't been reading the genre for a while, and somebody mentioned Bujold.  Doh! </p>

<p>You want Lois Bujold's entire Miles Vorkosigan series of novels, natch. It's "military SF", but seriously repurposed and reimagined.  Without spoiling too much, it is set up quite early on that the hero - instead of your archetypal 6'6" blonde steel-jawed man of action - is a midget with brittle-bone syndrome (due to fetal exposure to military-grade Nasty Stuff), manic-depressive tendencies, and some rather dissociative traits. They are fast-paced, funny, contain characters who act like actual human beings not cut-outs, deal with some deep and serious issues, and there are a lot of them.  They should keep you busy for quite a while.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  1:12 AM by Clifton Royston&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 01:12:45 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #99 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[The verse daemon has been busy...] </p>

<p>Two thousand soldiers dead in Iraq,<br />
Two thousand US soldiers that is.<br />
There are so many others dead in Iraq,<br />
The toll goes higher each day.</p>

<p>The British and others who went in there too,<br />
Their lives cut short matter too,<br />
Civilian Iraqis in unpatrolled streets,<br />
The toll goes higher each day.</p>

<p>Saddam was a devil no holy man he,<br />
But what has come after seems worse,<br />
The Sunni, the Shi'ites, the Kurds ethnic strife,<br />
The toll goes higher each day.</p>

<p>Dead are  the barbers and bombed are the stores,<br />
Where Christians once sold alcohol,<br />
The women are covered in headscarves some veiled,<br />
The toll grows higher each day.</p>

<p>Oh what is the reason and why is this toll,<br />
Their GNP's dropped down to nought,<br />
Most have no jobs and the streets are at war,<br />
The toll grows higher each.</p>

<p>Creating a training ground of terrorists,<br />
That was not there three years ago,<br />
Extremists take over,  life keeps getting worse,<br />
The toll grows higher each day.</p>

<p>Two thousand USA soldiers are dead,<br />
A foreign invasion force toll,<br />
Iraqi youngsters made suicide bombs, <br />
The toll grows higher each day. </p>

<p>The US invasion let libraries burn,<br />
Left streets to the vandals who killed,<br />
Let schools and the civil works all be ransacked,<br />
The toll grows higher each day. </p>

<p>There once was a country with millions of books,<br />
Some hundreds or thousand year old,<br />
But gone is that culture and shattered their world,<br />
The toll grows higher each day. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  2:01 AM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 02:01:29 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #100 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's National Crook Watch * Time!, waiting for Mr Fitzgerald to release the 2005 list of Executive Branch Crooks.  Two decades ago, the Crook Watch wended its way up all the way to the top of the hit list, to catch Richard M. "Trick Dick" "I Am Not a Crook!" Nixon, then-President of the United States of America.  He did not finish out the term in office.  His Vice President, Spiro T. Agnew, had previously fallen afoul of certainly niggling little problems, and been removed from office as a crook. </p>

<p>Will history repeat itself? How much of Bush Misadministration won't be indicted, or will evade being corraled and fingered from "collateral damage"? Stayed tuned, as the Crook Watch continues.</p>

<p>* "I am not a crook!" Richard M. Nixon's infamous word. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  3:10 AM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 03:10:20 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #101 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apropos of nothing much, this was the result of a conversation that ended up being posted on <a href='http://pharyngula.org/index/weblog/comments/anne_rice_loses_it' rel="nofollow">pharyngula.org</a>; I'm sure some of the residents here can outdo my efforts. The theme was retelling the Gospels in other styles:</p>

<p>Raymond Chandler: ("I don't like guys who stone dames - wherever the dames have been running around - so I told them that he who was without sin was going to cast the first stone. I said it while I was holding a rock the size of a loaf of Wonder Bread. I think they got the message.") </p>

<p>Chuck Palahniuk: ("With spikes through both wrists you speak only in howls. In eighteen hours' time the sky over Jerusalem will darken. The veil of the Temple will be rent in twain. I know this because the Logos knows this.")</p>

<p>PG Wodehouse: (from "The Inimitable Judas": "The Earl of Gethsemane's garden was extremely pleasant, with all the fixings a man of taste could require, but I could not help feeling a lurking sense of what-you-may-call-it. Man was born to trouble as the sparks fly upward, as what's his name says, so it was without too much surprise that I heard Judas give a respectful cough behind me. <br />
"Ah, Judas. More of the chaps arrived?"<br />
"Not precisely, sir. The latest arrivals are a sizeable patrol of Roman legionaries, accompanied by His Reverence the High Priest."<br />
"Egad, Judas! Caiaphas has turned up? That human gumboil?"<br />
He didn't say anything but just raised a sort of sceptical eyebrow. Dashed superior-thinking fellow.") </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  5:41 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 05:41:54 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #102 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Raymond Chandler's take on the New Testament, ajay? I love it. You should mention that to Mel Gibson.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  8:43 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:43:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #103 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may make one more recommendation for a book to read...</p>

<p>Donald Kingsbury's <b>Psychohistorical Crisis</b></p>

<p>In spite of its title, it is not a prequel or a sequel or a spinoff from Asimov's <b>Foundation</b>. One could say it's Kingsbury's homage to Asimov's concepts, which he takes way further out that even the Good Doctor did.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  8:49 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 08:49:29 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #104 from Kate Nepveu</title>
         <description>comment from Kate Nepveu on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last I heard about Bujold & the Five Gods-verse, she'd mused that it might be cool to have one book per God, but I don't believe she's committed herself, since she only talks about one book at a time and the next book is in an entirely different universe.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  9:42 AM by Kate Nepveu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 09:42:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #105 from Bryan</title>
         <description>comment from Bryan on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm going to ask this here because I think a lot of people who would know the answer hang out here:</p>

<p>Where are some good discussion groups on higher education?<br />
I especially need to discuss/access information on the following:<br />
1. The ability to 'Challenge' courses and the effects on such ability on enrollment.<br />
2. Pass/fail courses without the need for attendance (i.e. just showing up for tests) and the effect on enrollment of such courses.<br />
3. The ability to earn life-credit and the effect on enrollment.<br />
4. trustworthyness of degrees in the various situations outline above.</p>

<p>I need the information for some recommendations regarding european usage of opencourseware etc.</p>

<p>Thanks. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 10:03 AM by Bryan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:03:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #106 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serge: Second that nomination. His other books are also good. (I heard that he's not a good speaker, but ....</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 10:53 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 10:53:37 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #107 from Vicki</title>
         <description>comment from Vicki on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect they're publishing enemy body counts to try to distract people from the body counts of US soldiers, Iraqi soldiers and police, and the many thousands of civilians.</p>

<p>Newsday's story today on the official number of US military deaths in Iraq hitting 2000 pointed out that this is a significant undercount, for two reasons. It's a count of <em>US citizens</em> who have died in Iraq while serving in the US military. It omits at least 80 deaths of US soldiers who weren't citizens. It also omits all the contractors, many of them ex-military, who died doing things in Iraq that, in any previous war, would have been done by the government.</p>

<p>I can see why they only count people who are in the military when they die, but why on earth is everyone pretending that the resident aliens who died fighting for their adopted land, even though they weren't citizens, never existed?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 11:04 AM by Vicki&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:04:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #108 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, PJ. I'd also recommend Wil McCarthy's <b>Collapsium</b> for those who like stories of superscience. (If I may use such a quaint expression.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 11:36 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:36:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #109 from Jim Henry</title>
         <description>comment from Jim Henry on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Anderson wrote (October 25, 2005, 11:44 AM):</p>

<p><i><br />
Serge, I'm relatively ignorant of the fantasy genre. What are examples of its literary side. And perhaps more important, what's worth reading?<br />
</i></p>

<p>Sarah Avery already mentioned Hope Mirrlees's <i>Lud-in-the-Mist</i> -- probably one of the best fantasy novels ever.  Besides the recent paperback reprint, there's also an etext (on my website, ZIPped text).  Other people have mentioned a lot of series and epics, so I'll keep my list to mostly stand-alone novels, since that's my preference anyway.</p>

<p><i>The Last Unicorn</i> by Peter S. Beagle</p>

<p><i>The Face in the Frost</i> by John Bellairs (he also wrote some good children's fantasy and mysteries, but this adult novel is much the best)</p>

<p><i>Little, Big</i> by John Crowley</p>

<p>Tim Powers' novels -- it's hard to pick out just one, but probably <i>The Anubis Gates</i>, <i>On Stranger Tides</i>, <i>Last Call</i> and <i>Declare</i> are among the best.</p>

<p>James P. Blaylock's novels, especially <i>The Last Coin</i></p>

<p>Avram Davidson's <i>The Phoenix and the Mirror</i> (first of a trilogy, but stands alone well; the second and third (<i>Vergil in Averno</i> and <i>The Scarlet Fig</i>) are rare, and also somewhat less accessible than the first -- almost Joycean in spots)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 11:39 AM by Jim Henry&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 11:39:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #110 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, definitely those two books by Tim Powers. And I can't believe I forgot to recommend Charles de Lint's <b>Moonheart</b>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 12:07 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:07:08 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #111 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Vicki:  regarding the 2000 "citizens" question:<br />
 yes, that what today's <i>Newsday</i> is reporting, but I'm scratching my head as to how that can be so.  I'm thinking this is just bad reporting on their part.</p>

<p>I've heard that the US military is several per cent non-citizen (which, btw, is higher than the percentage of non-Iraqis in the insurgency...), but until this <i>Newsday</i> story, I had not heard that their deaths officially Don't Count. I'm dubious. </p>

<p>Attacks are reported, the Pentagon then confirms the casualties.  The <a href="http://icasualties.org/oif/" rel="nofollow">Iraq coalition Casualty Count</a>  doesn't seem to note a 4% discrepency. I don't see a step where 4% of the attacks would disappear from the casualty count. </p>

<p>Anyone want to dig up the <i>Journal-Constitution</i> article cited by <i>Newsday</i> and see what the original assertion was?</p>

<p>And yes, over 100 other Americans have been killed in Iraq.  In a saner world, THAT would be a major story, but here in Bizarro World, that's beeb dwarfed by all the other disasters. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 12:22 PM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:22:20 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #112 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>["BEEN" dwarfed.  "Beeb" is the "British Broadcasting Corporation", to its friends, at least.]</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 12:28 PM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:28:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #113 from j h woodyatt</title>
         <description>comment from j h woodyatt on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Correction, make that Spend, Borrow, Spend More, Borrow More, Cut Taxes on the Rich, and Make the Rich the Lienholders."</p>

<p>The phrase you want is <i>Borrow-And-Squander Republicans</i>.  Rolls off the tongue really nicely.  Make sure to sneer the word "squander" when you say it.  I've used this verbally to fabulous effect.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 12:39 PM by j h woodyatt&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:39:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #114 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks to everyone for their fantasy and SF recommendations. I'm in the process now of picking up a number of 'em, and am looking forward to cozy winter evenings with a hot toddy in one hand and a good read in the other....</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  1:14 PM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:14:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #115 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You're welcome, Richard. I was beginning to fear you'd cry "Uncle!"...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  1:29 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:29:02 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #116 from Jim Henry</title>
         <description>comment from Jim Henry on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wrote:</p>

<blockquote>
Avram Davidson's The Phoenix and the Mirror (first of a trilogy, but stands alone well; the second and third (Vergil in Averno and The Scarlet Fig) are rare, and also somewhat less accessible than the first -- almost Joycean in spots)
</blockquote>

<p>I don't want to give an impression that the latter two are not as good -- <i>Vergil in Averno</i> is probably slightly better, and <i>The Scarlet Fig</i> (which I'm not quite finished reading yet) is also quite good -- but the second is out of print and hard to find, and the third is currently in print only in an expensive small-press edition -- so you would probably want to read them only after reading more of Davidson's easier-to-find books and deciding that you can't get enough of him.  They're very enjoyable if you are willing to give them the close attention they require.</p>

<p>TNH & PNH: could Tor do an omnibus edition of the three Vergil Magus books?  It's hard to recommend them when used copies of the second are $57+ and the limited edition of the third (50GBP) may already be sold out...<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  1:36 PM by Jim Henry&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:36:19 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #117 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a slightly different subject but still related to SF/F... It looks like the movie adaptation of Burroughs's Barsoom stories has found yet a new home. Early last year, Robert Rodriguez was working on it. Then it was the man behind <i>Sky Captain</i>, which tanked. Now it's Jon Favreau, most famous for <i>elf</i>. </p>

<p>Who will be next?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  2:09 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:09:52 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #118 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>j h woodyatt:</p>

<p>It's not <i>Borrow and Squander</i> though, it's <i>Squander and Borrow</i>.</p>

<p>The "Tax and Spend" Democrats <b>FIRST</b> raised taxes, and <b>then</b> spent. They used the spending then as the basis for keeping the taxes high, keeping the tolls on the Massachusetts Turnpike (long before The Big Dig the tolls were supposed to be abolish, the original bonds had all expired, but the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority found or invented all sorts of projects to continue spending money on, and continued the tolls, and issues more bonds of some such based their rationale on "see, we have these construction projects and highway beautification projects we will need money for." </p>

<p>The Republicraps in Washington, however, first issue blank checks for Iraq, throw money to Hallliburton, Bechtel, and Florida residents for "hurricane damage" in areas not suffering any, and then belatedly issue legislation increasing the federal debt ceiling and borrowing limits. </p>

<p>Or perhaps, it should be "Misappropriate and Borrow"--they're cutting the life support programs for the poor and the unwell, and lining the pockets more of government contractors and sectarion bigot organizations all of which claim to be Christian organzations--the non-Christian organizations which appled for Faith-based program programs, somehow all got turned down.... </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  2:25 PM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:25:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #119 from j h woodyatt</title>
         <description>comment from j h woodyatt on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paula, you might have the order of operations correct, but "Borrow-and-Squander" is the phrase you want.  It puts the listener/reader into the picture: <i>you borrowed all that money in our names, and now look how little good for us you've been able to do with it.</i></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  2:51 PM by j h woodyatt&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 14:51:07 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #120 from Brooke C.</title>
         <description>comment from Brooke C. on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*is deeply disturbed by vision of Jeeves and Bertie as Judas and Christ*</p>

<p>Has anybody mentioned Lord Dunsany? <i>The King of Elfland's Daughter</i> is flat-out amazing.  And, going with the Edwardian fantasy theme, I'd definitely recommend any of the short stories of Saki (H. H. Munro) and Chesterton's <i>The Man Who Was Thursday</i>.</p>

<p>I've never read <i>The Face In the Frost</i>, but Bellairs gave me some of my most fondly-remembered childhood trauma.  That mummy-thing that makes you a mummy, and the blue-burning candles in <i>The Mummy, the Will and the Crypt</i>...god. *Shudder* Also, I'm firmly convinced that Tim Burton should get back in touch with his homey, creepifying roots and make a movie version of <i>The House with a Clock in Its Walls</i>.  I don't care how many studio executives I have to kill to make it happen.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  3:12 PM by Brooke C.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:12:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #121 from bryan</title>
         <description>comment from bryan on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always thought The king of Elfland's daughter was the least of Dunsany's work, in that it was something that reading it I could have assumed someone else wrote it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  3:38 PM by bryan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:38:19 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #122 from Bruce Adelsohn</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Adelsohn on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the subject of fantasy books worth reading, I'd add the recently released to the public domain <a href="http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16731" rel="nofollow">The Garden of the Plynck</a> to the list.  (I'd also recommend downloading the PDF for the illustrations, but understand folks who just want the text.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  3:52 PM by Bruce Adelsohn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 15:52:50 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #123 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a TV-movie version of <i>House With a Clock in its Walls</i> -- imdb says it was 1998, but has no useful details.  I remember it going by, but haven't seen it.</p>

<p>Tim Burton's version would no doubt be better, though.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  5:12 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:12:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #124 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/10/26/tut.wine.ap/index.html" rel="nofollow">Researcher: King Tut drank red wine</a></p>

<p><i>LONDON, England (AP) -- King Tutankhamen was a red wine drinker, according to a researcher who analyzed traces of the vintage found in his tomb.</i></p>

<p><i>Maria Rosa Guasch-Jane told reporters Wednesday at the British Museum that she made her discovery after inventing a process that gave archaeologists a tool to discover the color of ancient wine.</i></p>

<p><i>"This is the first time someone has found an ancient red wine," she said.</i></p>

<p><i>Wine bottles from King Tut's time were labeled with the name of the product, the year of harvest, the source and the vine grower, Guasch-Jane said, but did not include the color of the wine.</i></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  5:23 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:23:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #125 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under Egypt fell under the influence of those belonging to a religion averse to alcohol, apparently it was a major producer of quality wines. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  5:25 PM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 17:25:41 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #126 from jhlipton</title>
         <description>comment from jhlipton on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love (can't use "Lessthan B" for heart here!) all of Tim Power's work, but must put in a special word for "Drawing of the Dark".  From beer to zombie pirates to tarot poker, is there anything this guy <b>can't</b> write about?</p>

<p>It's been a while since I read it, but I recall "Cry Silver Bells" by Thomas Burnett Swann being a very good read.  <br />
 </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005  9:50 PM by jhlipton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:50:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #127 from Jonathan Shaw</title>
         <description>comment from Jonathan Shaw on 26.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously, where is Jonathan Vos Post? Should we be worrying? If the reason for his absence has already been revealed and I've missed it, would someone email me? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 26, 2005 11:30 PM by Jonathan Shaw&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 26 Oct 2005 23:30:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #128 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice that I typed "Under" rather than "Until."  It's not the only time recently that I've typed a word other than the one I was -thinking- of when writing something.  It's not a classic sort of typo, which for me invovles "fumble fingers," but rather correct typing of the -wrong- word, one that I wasn't thinking of... it's peculiar: after my mother had a stroke she had extreme difficulty with regards to what she was struggling to retrieve from the neurons to <i>say</i>; what she did say or try to say, was coming out scrambled/crossfired/aborted/stuck--things weren't firing correctly from the thoughts to the speech center to output.  But, she had had a stroke, and has apparently has some degree of aphasia long before that for her entire life. </p>

<p>But aphasia or minor malapropisms <b>typing</b> things?? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 12:50 AM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 00:50:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #129 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Henry:</p>

<p>Thank you for letting me know of the existence of <i>The Purple Fig</i>.  But I've just discoverd that my admiration for the work of Avram Davidson <i>does</i> in fact have bounds:  it's <b>fifty bucks</b>, and Amazon doesn't carry it.   </p>

<p>I happily bought <i>The Other 19th C</i> and <i> The A.D. Treasury</i> AND  <i> Investigations...</i> - - but fifty bucks for a book is Right Out.   So I'll second your motion for a three-in-one omnibus edition of the "Vergil Magus" books.  (A trade edition of <i>PF</i> would do the trick, too.)</p>

<p>I guess it's good to know that I DO l have limits.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  1:01 AM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:01:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #130 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim Henry:  Well, thanks for the tip, but Googling around I learned that Davidson's <i>The Purple Fig</i> for all practical purposes, does NOT exist.   The publisher lists seven stockists: none of them actually seem to have it. So the fact that they're asking fifty bucks for it is moot.</p>

<p>The inability to buy books by Avram Davidson might be further evidence that I've crossed over to Bizarro World. Because on a rational-ordered planet, they should be readily available.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  1:25 AM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 01:25:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #131 from David Goldfarb</title>
         <description>comment from David Goldfarb on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jo Walton is too modest to recommend her own fantasy books, so I'll do it.  <i>The King's Peace</i>, <i>The King's Name</i>, <i>The Prize in the Game</i>.  <i>Tooth and Claw</i> won the World Fantasy Award last year (which winning was almost immediately upstaged by the US election, alas).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  4:30 AM by David Goldfarb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 04:30:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #132 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They're not counting non-citizens who are killed while serving in Iraq? My God, that's horrible. That makes me feel physically ill. I can't believe the brass are letting them get away with that. <br />
For heaven's sake, I serve with non-citizens. There are men and women from six or seven nations in my unit. Damn anyone who tries to say they don't count.<br />
I hope this is just poor reporting - do you have a URL for those of us who don't live in New Jersey? It's already bad enough that <i>allied</i> casualties apparently don't count...<br />
(deep breath)</p>

<p>Tim Powers' <i>Declare</i> is a fine, fine book. Highly recommended.</p>

<p>Sorry for disturbing you, Brooke: I also have Poe, Damon Runyon, Anthony Burgess, Frank Miller and Arthur Conan Doyle if you scroll down the pharyngula thread...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  5:18 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 05:18:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #133 from fidelio</title>
         <description>comment from fidelio on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize that it might seem like something from a fantasy novel, but it appears that the spirit of Shoeless Joe Jackson can now rest easily. <br />
The Red Sox last year, the White Sox this year--does this mean that soon Mr. Sianis and his goat, Murphy, will relent and let the Cubs win at least a pennant?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  8:19 AM by fidelio&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 08:19:07 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #134 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ajay: re: non-citizen casualties - <br />
I think it's bad reporting on <i>Newsday's</i> part.  I haven't yet been able to find the <i>Atlanta Journal-Constitution</i> story that <i>Newsday</i> claims as a source for this.  </p>

<p>I spot-checked some of the CentCom press releases looking for non-citizens - so far I've found one guy whose home is listed as "Saipan", but no explicit non-citizens.  OTOH, the CentCom casualty releases don't say one way or another. So this is still a single unconfirmed news report.</p>

<p>In other news, Miers has withdrawn.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  9:55 AM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:55:01 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #135 from Lucy Kemnitzer</title>
         <description>comment from Lucy Kemnitzer on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The <a href="http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-787277.php" rel="nofollow">Army Times</a> says non-citizen soldiers are signing up less than they had been.  Two years ago, <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0922-02.htm" rel="nofollow">Common Dreams</a> pointed out that Hispanic soldiers were dying in greater proportion to their numbers than others (updated <a href="http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_1049.shtml" rel="nofollow">here</a>). </p>

<p>Citizenship is one of the carrots for enlisting, these days -- if you enlist, it's supposed to make the process of naturalization quicker.</p>

<p>I can't find the reference about not counting non-citizen deaths in the total, either, but I read something like it a while back -- a couple of years?  And I know it wasn't in <i>Newsday</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 10:26 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:26:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #136 from Faren Miller</title>
         <description>comment from Faren Miller on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding phonetic etc. typos: Well, I recently came up with the "Reisling" Awards in transcribing an interview (so much nicer to drink than Rhysling!). The subconscious is a strange beast.</p>

<p>As to recommended books, I've been doing lists for somewhere around 2 decades now in Locus -- check old February issues for <i>all</i> reviewers' recs -- but won't try to boil them down here. The main point is, lots of people are still doing great books, and you've probably never heard of some of those folks since they just keep coming along.</p>

<p>If you can adjust to shorter works, genre mixing and occasionally-edgy topics, collections are another way to go. Margo Lanagan, Anna Tambour, Jeff VanderMeer.... Lots of great stuff out there.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 11:04 AM by Faren Miller&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:04:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #137 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Harriet Miers withdraws. Charles Krauthammer called it exactly.</p>

<p>Second verse, same as the first... A little bit louder and a little bit worse.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 11:14 AM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:14:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #138 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bush said Miers was the "best qualified" candidate for the position.</p>

<p>Who's second-best?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 11:20 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:20:59 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #139 from Laura Roberts</title>
         <description>comment from Laura Roberts on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For "classic" fantasy (pre-WWII), I recommend Charles Williams.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 11:31 AM by Laura Roberts&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:31:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #140 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second best is doubtless Karl Rove.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 11:56 AM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:56:47 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #141 from Skwid</title>
         <description>comment from Skwid on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an intersection of yarncraft and my particular interests, here's a <a href="http://monstercrochet.blogspot.com/2005/04/attack-of-giant-squid.html" rel="nofollow">Crotcheted  25 ft. Giant Squid</a>!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 12:15 PM by Skwid&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:15:41 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #142 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paula: I make that kind of mistake all the time.  My mind is thinking about a later word in the sentence as I'm planning ahead, and I start to type the correct word, but it contains a letter that's also in the word I'm planning to use, leading me to finish it with the rest of that word.</p>

<p>I do it more frequently in handwriting, because I have longer to think about the rest of the sentence and forget what I'm actually writing at the time.  I often just skip letters when handwriting.  It makes anything I write by hand very hard to read.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 12:32 PM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:32:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #143 from Bruce Arthurs</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Arthurs on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Skwid, that entire <a href="http://www.monstercrochet.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Monster Crochet</a> site is worth a look.  Current posts (covering about the last month) include a lot of Halloween-type stuff (crocheted Jack-O-Lanterns, skeletons, eyeballs) and a few things for Thanksgiving (a big, rather frightening, turkey-shaped shoulder bag, and a stuffed turkey carcass)(I had never noticed the resemblance between a plucked turkey and Godzilla before....)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 12:58 PM by Bruce Arthurs&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 12:58:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #144 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you mean, Bruce? You never noticed the shape of Godzilla's drumsticks?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  1:03 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:03:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #145 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the crocheted giant squid is going to be Bush's nominee for the Supreme Court.  It's better qualified than Harriet Miers.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  1:05 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:05:09 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #146 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter Lorre, who was in Disney's <b>20,000 Leagues under the Sea</b>, once said of the giant squid that attacked the Nautilus that it was playing the part HE usually played in movies. How about Peter Lorre for the Supreme Court? Oh, he's dead. How about his creation, the Furry Sneaker-wearing Monster, Rudolph? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  1:21 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 13:21:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #147 from Brooke C.</title>
         <description>comment from Brooke C. on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ajay: Don't worry.  I was dying laughing at the Miller, Poe, Christie, and especially Runyon.  I just happen to be hypersensitive to all things Jeeves and Wooster, as I've been on a Wodehouse bender for well over a month. My friends and family will be staging an intervention any day now. </p>

<p>(On the side of enablers, however, I've discovered the madness which is Wodehouse fandom, and am now the proud possessor of a "What Would Jeeves Do?" t-shirt, from here: http://www.cafepress.com/lucylou.23993670 It's very obviously Stephen Fry as Jeeves, which I'm happy about as a ravening Fry fangirl.  But the shirt would be worth it if only for the text on the back, which has already garnered me several splutters and lots of puzzled looks.)</p>

<p>I have been convinced from about age 12 that Wodehouse should be properly counted as fantasy, since his world is so utterly removed from reality.  And it's right up there with Narnia in worlds I want to visit, or at least live up to.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  2:25 PM by Brooke C.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 14:25:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #148 from Julie L.</title>
         <description>comment from Julie L. on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From variously upthread:</p>

<p>JVP's <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/magicdragon2/" rel="nofollow">LJ</a> is still being updated, though his most recent activity is in his own reply threads rather than <i>de novo</i> posts.</p>

<p>At a library sale earlier this year, I picked up a biography of Teddy Roosevelt's youngest son, Quentin; it was written/compiled by another of TR's sons, Kermit. About half of the book is made up of letters of condolence received after Quentin's death in combat during WWI-- all three of Quentin's brothers also fought in WWI, and having survived that, re-upped with the military in WWII. I find it nearly impossible to comprehend that in itself, much less try to imagine a modern parallel.</p>

<p>But the connection to this from upthread is that one of the letters of condolence was from Lord Dunsany, who enclosed a sonnet. I'd been wondering whether it had been written expressly for that occasion, but apparently not; Quentin was shot down in mid-1918 and "A Dirge of Victory" was first published in <a href="http://www.sakoman.net/pg/html/13820.htm" rel="nofollow">1916</a> with a number of other short pieces by Dunsany about the wreckage of France:</p>

<blockquote>I saw a green door ajar in an upper room:  the whole of the front wall of the house was gone:  the door partly opened oddly on to a little staircase, whose steps one could just see, that one wondered whither it went.  The door seemed to beckon and beckon to some lost room, but if one could ever have got there, up through that shattered house, and if the steps of that little staircase would bear, so that one came to, the room that is hidden away at the top, yet there could only be silence and spiders there, and broken plaster and the dust of calamity; it is only to memories that the green door beckons; nothing remains.</blockquote>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  3:19 PM by Julie L.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 15:19:29 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #149 from Paul</title>
         <description>comment from Paul on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this on <a href="http://www.boingboing.net/" rel="nofollow">Boing Boing</a>, but I thought people who don't read that very often might still like to see this film about <a href="http://www.badmash.org/videos/videos_flv.php?v=george_bush_512K_Stream" rel="nofollow">the President's Speechalist</a>.</p>

<p>(Okay, so it's a joke video, but it's still amusing...)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  5:48 PM by Paul&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 17:48:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #150 from Kate Yule</title>
         <description>comment from Kate Yule on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Bujold has said there will be one book per deity.... She hasn't specified otherwise how closely they'll be related.</i></p>

<p>We can only hope it's less closely than <i>Chalion</i> and <i>Hallowed Hunt</i>.  As I have remarked on LJ, our protagonists in <i>[insert title]</i> are an intelligent, strong-willed young woman being buffeted by circumstance (and relatives), and the protective, world-weary, slightly-shady-but-loyal-in-a-pinch man with someone or something living in his gut. Oh, and the King is wasting away. Political hijinks ensue.</p>

<p>I liked it quite a lot, the first time.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005  8:10 PM by Kate Yule&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 20:10:38 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #151 from CHip</title>
         <description>comment from CHip on 27.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paula -- words become sets of finger-twitches when you've typed enough of them, just as they become unconscious clusters of vocal tract movements rather than separate sounds when you've spoken enough of them. (This usually happens early enough that you're not as aware of it as you are with typing.) This used to be considered desirable by the more sensible typing teachers; it wasn't as rhythmic as the old school prescribed but it was more efficient. I've noticed this (with the slips you describe) when I'm typing text, even code comments, but not when I'm typing code proper; if I were a real hacker, would constructs spring from my fingers without thought to the individual characters? (Maybe if I were younger; I've noticed my two outside right fingers doing less and less, which makes typing C very slow.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 27, 2005 10:54 PM by CHip&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:54:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #152 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chip muses:<br />
<i> if I were a real hacker, would constructs spring from my fingers without thought to the individual characters? </i></p>

<p>Yes - and it's really, profoundly and absolutely distressing when you realize you're using structures from the wrong language.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 12:43 AM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 00:43:43 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #153 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you're having trouble finding that Best Beer Ad Sidelight, go to http://www.bestadsontv.com/ and search the archives on "Made From Beer."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  1:22 AM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 01:22:12 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #154 from ajay</title>
         <description>comment from ajay on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wodehouse as fantasy? Possibly: Evelyn Waugh said "For Mr. Wodehouse there has been no fall of Man; no "aboriginal calamity." His characters have never tasted the forbidden fruit. They are still in Eden. The gardens of Blandings Castle are that original garden from which we are all exiled."</p>

<p>And even when reality intrudes it is Wodehousified. The awful Oswald Mosely becomes the ridiculous Roderick Spode (secretly connected to the mysterious Eulalie... but I have said too much). Bertie Wooster sees an old Oxford chum on the Aldermaston CND march. The Russian novelist Vladimir Brusiloff arrives in England during the Russian Civil War to exchange merry stories about playing golf with Lenin (while inwardly rejoicing that three of his creditors have been purged to Siberia). The gangs of Prohibition New York are exemplified by Bat Jarvis, whose heart can be won through a shared interest in cats. A typical Wodehouse young man remarks, while waiting to burgle Blandings Castle yet again, that it reminds him of his time in the commandos in the war.</p>

<p>As you say, another world.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  5:34 AM by ajay&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 05:34:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #155 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I habitually terminate Python statements with semicolons.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  5:49 AM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 05:49:05 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #156 from Bruce Arthurs</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Arthurs on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the same site as the "Dawn of the Knitted Dead" is a link to a photo of:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/electricbiscuit/15162353/" rel="nofollow">Nestman</a></p>

<p>An odd (also lovely and subtly disturbing) study in contrasts.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  8:38 AM by Bruce Arthurs&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 08:38:47 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #157 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. George Takei has come out of the closet. Good for him.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  9:23 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:23:15 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #158 from Sisuile</title>
         <description>comment from Sisuile on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I may be mistaken, and it may be a cultural bias/nationality difference, but aren't Clydesdales as portrayed in that beer ad reserved to AB? That's who I automatically thought of at that part.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  9:39 AM by Sisuile&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 09:39:40 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #159 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Interesting. George Takei has come out of the closet. Good for him.</i></p>

<p>I <b><i>knew</i></b> it!!!!!</p>

<p>(Well, no I didn't, but it had to be said.)<br />
(And actually when I was a young teenager Walter Koenig was my main lust-object of the Trek crew.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 11:32 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:32:04 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #160 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Walter Koenig, Xopher? </p>

<p>Anyway, when I told my wife about Takei, she also said she knew it. Why? Because of the episode where Solu thinks he's d'Artagnan. I don't see it, but what do I know?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 11:38 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:38:32 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #161 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chekhov.  </p>

<p>And about the Particle "A manhole cover with his name on it," there is NO WAY that was the path of the manhole cover.  An illustrator's fanciful embellishment, no doubt.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 11:43 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:43:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #162 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: Takei -  I don't read fanfic, but I'm thinking that there must be a <i>lot</i> of slash writers patting themselves on their backs for their prescience. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 11:48 AM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:48:37 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #163 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re Takei: I'm not surprised either, but I don't know why. It was just a feeling I've had from some years. (The downtown LA throwaway newspaper had an interview with him this week, because it's the first time in his years with this theater company that he's been onstage.)</p>

<p>re manhole cover: It probably flipped over only once on its trip; enthusiastic illustrator, as said. I do wonder about the size of the explosion, though.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 11:59 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 11:59:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #164 from Faren Miller</title>
         <description>comment from Faren Miller on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of you may have already figured this out, but there's more to the San Francisco in Jello link than one pic. A columnist in SFGate, the Chron online, gave this link: <a href="http://www.url.com" rel="nofollow">www.lizhickok.com</a>. (Click on Portfolio, if you're not already there.) The Bridge is amazing, and even the climate's right! Looking at the slightly saggy City Hall, I was thinking this version might be safer in an earthquake.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 12:46 PM by Faren Miller&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:46:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #165 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P J Evans: even if it flipped over, its overall trajectory couldn't loop like that.  And if that's tracking one point on the edge...that's one giant FUCK of a manhole cover!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005 12:51 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 12:51:37 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #166 from Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey</title>
         <description>comment from Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scooter Libby is indicted, five counts.  Karl Rove is not, but "remains under investigation."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  1:12 PM by Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:12:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #167 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if Cheney told Scooter he was doing a "heck of a job."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  1:19 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:19:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #168 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xopher: that was what McClellan said about Rove, wasn't it?</p>

<p>It's probably premature to start flipping manhole covers, with or without fancily improbable loops. (I've seen one rise off the hole and 'dance' in heavy rain; water was coming <i>out</i> of the manhole and lifted the lid at least two inches above paving level!)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  1:24 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:24:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #169 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I used to help run a campus SF convention (I-Con, out in Stony Brook) that then and now invites lots of "media guests." I still keep in touch with the comittee. It's been an open secret for years that Takei was gay.</p>

<p>General feel about that: Big deal. "Tacky George" is a really nice guy and a <i>great</i> guest. Patient and friendly with fans (even the sad weirdos), hard working, understanding of the crap that a high-staff-turnover campus convention sometimes puts guests through. </p>

<p>At one convention -- 1985 as I recall -- Takei invited the audiance at one of his appearances to meet him at some ungodly early hour to go jogging around campus. What an uncommonly nice thing to do!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  1:45 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:45:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #170 from Xopher (Christopher Hatton)</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher (Christopher Hatton) on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note to self: when famous (even among a select group), invite them for an early-morning jog.</p>

<p>Did anyone show up?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  1:54 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100480</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 13:54:25 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #171 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Did anyone show up?"</p>

<p>As I recall, a dozen or so.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  2:06 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:06:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #172 from Patrick Connors</title>
         <description>comment from Patrick Connors on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefan: George used to do that at lots of cons.</p>

<p>My new wife (mmm, that's nice to say) has a great story in which George shows up at her hotel room door at 6:00 one Sunday morning and asks if [her ex] could come out and play. Her ex, it seems, was the sole survivor of the previous morning's jog. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  2:41 PM by Patrick Connors&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:41:37 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #173 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Her ex, it seems, was the sole survivor of the previous morning's jog.</i></p>

<p>What kind of fan generation is this?  Everybody knows, when you go jogging with an <i>Enterprise</i> officer, <i>you don't wear a red shirt.</i></p>

<p>Your pocket handkerchief, however, is a matter of individual preference.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  2:52 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100504</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 14:52:35 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #174 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Everybody knows, when you go jogging with an Enterprise officer, you don't wear a red shirt.</i></p>

<p>Is it safe if you're working in engineering rather than security? </p>

<p>(A couple of years ago, looking through the company org chart, I discovered I'm supposed to be a red shirt. Worse, my job title is suitably anonymous for a victim: 'technical specialist'. I think that means there's a target in UV on the back of my shirt.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  3:01 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:01:07 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #175 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Faren, I've been forwarding the San Francisco jello link to my friends in that city and to expats elsewhere. Everyone's been pretty amazed at the effort involved -- and at its results. (Although I'm bitterly disappointed that I wasn't able to spot any of the places where I once lived or  worked. ) The site would be even cooler, though, if Hickock could figure out some way to show the buildings shaking. "Whoa! It's the big one!"</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  3:54 PM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100513</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 15:54:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #176 from Vicki</title>
         <description>comment from Vicki on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since someone asked: Newsday is at www.newsday.com.</p>

<p>I don't live in New Jersey, nor is Newsday published there: it's a Long Island and New York City paper (HQ on the Island).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  4:23 PM by Vicki&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100519</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:23:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #177 from Andrew Willett</title>
         <description>comment from Andrew Willett on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, there is indeed video footage. It's not as dramatic as one might hope for, but the whole city shakes like a whole lot of... well, something; I dunno. Something jiggly. Click the video link on the <a href="http://www.lizhickok.com/assets/portfolio/pages/06telegraph.html" rel="nofollow">Telegraph Hill page</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  4:49 PM by Andrew Willett&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:49:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #178 from Barry Ragin</title>
         <description>comment from Barry Ragin on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stefan Jones:<br />
<i>I used to help run a campus SF convention (I-Con, out in Stony Brook) that then and now invites lots of "media guests." I still keep in touch with the comittee. It's been an open secret for years that Takei was gay.</i></p>

<p>Hey, Stefan, i was doing radio at WUSB when I-Con first started up. I interviewed Nic Yermakov and Michael Swanwick the first or second year of the convention. I've got the tape somewhere . . . </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  4:56 PM by Barry Ragin&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100526</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 16:56:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #179 from Richard Anderson</title>
         <description>comment from Richard Anderson on 28.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good gosh, don't know how I missed the video button. But hey, the city shakes like...jello!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 28, 2005  8:04 PM by Richard Anderson&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 28 Oct 2005 20:04:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #180 from Bruce Adelsohn</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Adelsohn on 29.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly enough, I also recently ran into <a href="http://www.bestadsontv.com//ad_details.php?id=634" rel="nofollow">Yet Another Best Beer Ad Ever</a> -- at the same site as the one in the <i>Sidelights</i>.  The real pity there is that I don't like the particular brew (Guinness) the ad's for.  (In case you have trouble with this ad, too, its name is noitulovE and its id=634.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 29, 2005  4:42 AM by Bruce Adelsohn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100598</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2005 04:42:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #181 from Paula Kate</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Kate on 29.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found this delicious phrase in the Particles <a>link</a>, defining prosopography:</p>

<p>"Though it originated before the pre-electronic age..."</p>

<p>So when exactly <i>is</i> "before the pre-electronic age"?<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 29, 2005  1:45 PM by Paula Kate&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:45:50 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #182 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 29.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"You Knit WHAT?!": ROFL. I <i>have</i> been wondering what all that 'fun fur' was for. It might make nice tribbles, for those who feel the need.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 29, 2005  7:38 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100655</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2005 19:38:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #183 from Epacris</title>
         <description>comment from Epacris on 30.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>"before the pre-electronic age?"</i><br />
Let's see, you got Ultimate, PenUltimate, AntePenUltimate, and PreAntePenUltimate ... so ... hmmm are we back to the Mesozoic yet (Rhaetian, for instance) or still Phanerozoic (say, Rupelian)?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 30, 2005 10:11 AM by Epacris&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2005 10:11:09 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #184 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 30.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PJ Evans wrote:</p>

<p><i>"You Knit WHAT?!": ROFL. I have been wondering what all that 'fun fur' was for. It might make nice tribbles, for those who feel the need.</i></p>

<p>Y'know... I've lately taken to threatening to send shiploads of tribbles to 'help' with our various technical issues... </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 30, 2005 12:13 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:13:12 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #185 from bryan</title>
         <description>comment from bryan on 30.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so, is there actually a novel-writing class? http://www.reachm.com/amstreet/archives/2005/10/30/the-novel-writing-class/</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 30, 2005  3:13 PM by bryan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:13:43 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #186 from Bob Oldendorf</title>
         <description>comment from Bob Oldendorf on 30.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Open thread: </p>

<p><a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/003560.html" rel="nofollow">At the foot of the Flatiron Building</a> (and various other shorts from the dawn of cinema) is now available in the real world, on DVD.</p>

<p>The <a href="http://www.filmpreservation.org" rel="nofollow"> National Film Preservation Foundation</a> has issued <i>More Treasures from American Film Archives 1894-1931</i> on 3 DVDs (573 minutes).  The set comes with  an audio commentary track, and with a "Program notes" paperback.</p>

<p>The <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JP1VW/104-4077442-3255141?v=glance&n=130" rel="nofollow">Amazon link</a> doesn't seem to provide a full listing of the 50 shorts in the set (they list 11), but "The Streets of New York" shorts ARE on it.  </p>

<p>(Wonderful things, public libraries.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 30, 2005  4:06 PM by Bob Oldendorf&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:06:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #187 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on 30.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About 100 years ago we were discussing <i>Serenity</i> the movie -- so I finally saw it, last night. Fun, though the plot was achingly predictable. (Reavers, look. See the Alliance! See the Alliance run. Run, Alliance, run!) But I liked most of the characters, and it made me think I might enjoy the TV episodes. I believe they're available on DVD. <i>Firefly</i>, right?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 30, 2005 10:31 PM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:31:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #188 from Kate Nepveu</title>
         <description>comment from Kate Nepveu on 31.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lizzy L: yes, _Firefly_ is the TV series that the movie _Serenity_ follows.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 31, 2005  9:21 AM by Kate Nepveu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:21:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #189 from Paula Helm Murray</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Helm Murray on 31.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here's news about JVP.</p>

<p>http://www.livejournal.com/users/magicdragon2/3176.html?mode=reply</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 31, 2005  9:57 AM by Paula Helm Murray&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:57:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #190 from Fiendish Writer</title>
         <description>comment from Fiendish Writer on 31.Oct.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.flakmag.com/rejected/miers.html" rel="nofollow">A small offering to the friendly readers here.</a></p>

<p>(And my abject apologies if I have inadvertently duplicated an earlier link to the same. I did make an honest search, but my eyes are not what they once were.)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted October 31, 2005 12:22 PM by Fiendish Writer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 12:22:25 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #191 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on  1.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miers is history, and something worse is the replacement nomination--another #(^@(#@!@(Y#@@@ white male rightwing ruthless Roman Catholic, to go along with that stinking fanatic Scalia (would've fit in with the Inquisition types 500 years ago I suspect)... more Christian Taliban Toxic Trash?  [Note, it's not his Roman Catholicism, its the rightwing intolerant bigot attitudes... which a lot of people of other religions exhibit, such as Mr Feith and the other "court Jews" of Schmuck's associates, Mr Brock prior to his epiphany, and various extremist Muslim clerics such as al-Sadr, the current head of Iran, etc.--oh, they're not -here-? Their values appear much the same--attack civilians and rain bombs down on people who didn't attack them, torture "detainees" to get information, suppress women and lock them up because they exist for baby-bearing and don't belong in public life, etc. )  </p>

<p>Too bad about that, Protestant women who have no representation on the Supreme Court, Roman Catholic women who have none, Hispanics who have none, people of east and southern Asian descent (one could argue that Ruth Bader Ginsburg is of west Asian ancestry, though not for a very long time....), those of non-Judaeo-Christian religions, Muslims....  Schmuck's court is made of Anton Scalias, who don't believe that other people's religiosiyt or lack thereof and values have any place being considered when sitting in judgment, only -his- religious values have merit and gravitas to apply...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  1, 2005  1:40 AM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 01:40:22 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #192 from Fiendish Writer</title>
         <description>comment from Fiendish Writer on  1.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fiendish views Paula's fury and regrets its posting of the link. The offering was meant to cause laughter, not painful rage. (hides)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  1, 2005 11:28 AM by Fiendish Writer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100836</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100836</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 11:28:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #193 from nerdycellist</title>
         <description>comment from nerdycellist on  1.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scientists affiliated with NASA have invented a new "skin" that will cover robotic devices and "sense" things - actually, NASA explains it better than I can:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2005/vladskin.html" rel="nofollow">Skin!</a></p>

<p>Sounds kind of boring, but watch this video supposedly demonstrating this new material - you tell me if it looks like a scientific demonstration, or - well, something else entirely.</p>

<p>Here is the <a href="http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/mpeg/115084main_ballerina.mpeg" rel="nofollow">video demonstration</a></p>

<p>Many thanks to <a href="http://us.gizmodo.com/gadgets/robots/nasas-dancing-space-penis-133980.php" rel="nofollow">gizmodo</a> for bringing this to my attention.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  1, 2005  1:49 PM by nerdycellist&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100855</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:49:12 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #194 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on  1.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sidelights link: "What's eating George Bush?"</p>

<p>A <i>Tyrannosaurus Rex</i>?  Please, let it be a <i>T. Rex</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  1, 2005  5:22 PM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100887</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 17:22:25 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #195 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  1.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/11/01/levee.probe.ap/index.html" rel="nofollow">Study: Design flaws in New Orleans levees</a></p>

<p><i>The engineers who designed the floodwalls that collapsed during Hurricane Katrina did not fully consider the porousness of the Louisiana soil or make other calculations that would have pointed to the need for stronger levees with deeper pilings and wider bases, researchers say.</i></p>

<p>And if they'd been better designed, a dinosaur or two could have walked across them during a flood without making them collapse.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  1, 2005  7:07 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100892</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:07:05 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #196 from Teresa Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Teresa Nielsen Hayden on  1.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Calm down, Paula L., you're alarming Fiendish. It's a funny piece, and I appreciated getting to see it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  1, 2005  7:55 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100899</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:55:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #197 from Skwid</title>
         <description>comment from Skwid on  2.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's been a while since <a href="http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/5224734/detail.html" rel="nofollow">sacred undergarments</a> were in the news...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  2, 2005  2:29 PM by Skwid&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100962</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:29:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #198 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on  2.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, in Utah, a <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/02/polygamous.judge.ap/index.html" rel="nofollow">polygamous judge</a> has been removed from the bench....or maybe not.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  2, 2005  2:49 PM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#100967</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Nov 2005 14:49:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #199 from Skwid</title>
         <description>comment from Skwid on  3.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whee!  It's all the tools you need for a political flameware <a href="http://forums.fark.com/cgi/fark/comments.pl?IDLink=1729113&thread_type=voteresults" rel="nofollow">photoshopped into <i>Magic: The Gathering</i> cards</a>!</p>

<p>Collect them all!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  3, 2005 12:46 PM by Skwid&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101057</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:46:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #200 from Fiendish Writer</title>
         <description>comment from Fiendish Writer on  3.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(/hides)</p>

<p>Gracious Teresa: I am pleased the link did please.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  3, 2005 12:56 PM by Fiendish Writer&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101059</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 12:56:44 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #201 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  3.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Headline in LA Times:<br />
<b>Pentagon Sets Its Sights on Roadside Bombs </b></p>

<p>I don't think they intended it the way it reads. But I wouldn't put it past the Pentagon.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  3, 2005  5:03 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101098</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:03:02 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #202 from Laura Roberts</title>
         <description>comment from Laura Roberts on  3.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is that supposed to be a picture of Baron Samedi in the voodoo ad?  It doesn't look right to me.</p>

<p>The text says "You'll spot him wearing a top hat, black coattails and dark glasses," but there are none such in the picture.  Also he looks kind of white-bread, really.  Not spooky enough.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  3, 2005  5:42 PM by Laura Roberts&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101102</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 17:42:42 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #203 from John McMullen</title>
         <description>comment from John McMullen on  4.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So has anybody seen this, about the patent being granted provisionally for a fictional storyline?</p>

<p>http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2005/11/emw303435.htm</p>

<p>And the actual patent is here:</p>

<p>http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=knight.IN.&s2=plot&OS=IN/knight+AND+plot&RS=IN/knight+AND+plot</p>

<p>While I would like to chant "prior art!" and make it go away, there have been enough bonehead software patents granted that I'm not at all certain that it will be dismissed.</p>

<p>I don't know the patent process well enough to know if this is something to be concerned about; I don't know who would step in to fight this. Wouldn't one of the automated fiction tools (plot builder or whatever) be sufficient evidence of prior art? I don't think Polti's <i>36 Dramatic Situations</i> describes it in sufficient detail, but maybe something more recent does (such as Tobias' <i>20 Master Plots</i>).</p>

<p>(Oh, hi--first time commenter here.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2005  9:32 AM by John McMullen&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101137</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:32:18 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #204 from John McMullen</title>
         <description>comment from John McMullen on  4.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies; the article I pointed to is a press release by the "inventor".</p>

<p>Still, the patent will be published as a matter of routine. What happens next?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2005 10:43 AM by John McMullen&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101142</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 10:43:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #205 from Skwid</title>
         <description>comment from Skwid on  4.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The patent *application* will be published as a matter of routine.  All applications are, now.  That doesn't mean the patent will be granted.</p>

<p>There's lots of info in the /. commentary, if you don't mind sifting out the dross:<br />
<a href="http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=167277&threshold=5" rel="nofollow">http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=167277&threshold=5</a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2005 12:18 PM by Skwid&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101145</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101145</guid>
         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:18:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #206 from Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey</title>
         <description>comment from Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey on  4.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At a minimum, Teresa should attach software to the Evil Overlord Plot Generator that converts each scenario into a patent application!  She'll become rich!!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2005  1:14 PM by Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101151</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101151</guid>
         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 13:14:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #207 from Harry Connolly</title>
         <description>comment from Harry Connolly on  4.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://p105.ezboard.com/fedandsootswritersguildfrm35.showMessage?topicID=1.topic" rel="nofollow">Talk to a PublishAmerica employee.</a><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2005  2:46 PM by Harry Connolly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101160</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101160</guid>
         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:46:57 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #208 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on  4.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Note To Self:</b></p>

<p>Take Leonard Cohen songs out of playlist on gloomy, rainy Friday afternoons when the weekend forecast is for more rain and wind, too.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  4, 2005  5:56 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101173</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:56:20 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #209 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on  5.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re the patent application, I'd suggest folks read <a href="http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=167277&cid=13948876" rel="nofollow">my analysis</a> of what the patent would cover if granted, which I posted to that slashdot discussion.</p>

<p>Specifically, the distributors of the film "13 Going On 30" would be infringing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2005  2:22 PM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101194</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:22:14 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #210 from Jules</title>
         <description>comment from Jules on  5.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I don't think Polti's 36 Dramatic Situations describes it in sufficient detail, but maybe something more recent does (such as Tobias' 20 Master Plots).</i></p>

<p>The problem with this approach is that the patent application is substantially more specific than the general plots of this kind, and relates to a story element more than the plot itself: a character who makes a wish to remain asleep until something happens, the wish becomes true, but the character then discovers that he has had a life in the meantime that he doesn't remember.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2005  2:26 PM by Jules&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101195</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:26:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #211 from Marilee</title>
         <description>comment from Marilee on  5.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm listening to Dolly Parton'w new CD <b>Those Were the Days</b> and really like her interpretative covers of these songs from the 70s.  I'm on my third consecutive listen.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2005  2:56 PM by Marilee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101196</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 14:56:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #212 from Marilee</title>
         <description>comment from Marilee on  5.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Council for Excellence in Government wants us to <a href="https://www.excelgov.org/userpreview.php?formid=299" rel="nofollow">vote</a> for our favorite TV fed.  I dunno, I like some of them as actors, but their characters are not always good Feds.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2005  3:01 PM by Marilee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101197</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 15:01:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #213 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on  5.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since this is an open thread, I hope it's okay to change the subject. (What was the subject?) According to DailyKos, NYTimes tomorrow has a very interesting article about intelligence BushCo made use of in its march to war -- intelligence from an Al-Qaeda member which was <i>at the time they used it</i> strongly suspected to have been fabricated. Among other tidbits in the article is the suggestion that the guy was probably tortured by the Egyptians before being sent to Gitmo. Senator Carl Levin passed a newly unclassified document to a Times reporter. </p>

<p>The comments on Kos range from the totally skeptical ("Karl Rove is behind it") to the deliriously happy ("Impeachment Now!! Woo hoo!!")My guess is, the Times is trying to redeem itself after the Judith Miller fiasco, and with Bush's popularity numbers dropping it feels emboldened... <br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2005 11:00 PM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101204</link>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 23:00:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #214 from Epacris</title>
         <description>comment from Epacris on  6.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[tangent]"<i>I like some of them as actors, but their characters are not always good Feds</i>" It can be difficult sometimes to interpret answers that people give honestly when the question has a lot of laxity in it.  Or to give an honest answer that won't be misinterpreted.<br />
I can remember people in Israel got upset that a European survey showed a majority thought that a major conflict might be caused over it.  The Israeli commentators seemed to assume that they were being blamed for starting a hypothetical conflict, but if someone asked me that question, it's an obvious place for a conflict to start over.</p>

<p>On a much more minor note, there's an ABC (Australia) survey about "Your favourite opera moment".  But the trouble is that my top few "moments" don't have much music in them - it's when something happens in the plot or action, like the moment that the Countess forgives Count Almaviva in the <i>Marriage of Figaro</i> (where my favourite music in it is the letter-writing duet) - or in the case of <i>Tales of Hoffman</i>, one tiny phrase that appears just once as the "Muse" reveals herself.[/tangent]</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2005  3:39 AM by Epacris&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101212</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 03:39:30 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #215 from Julie L.</title>
         <description>comment from Julie L. on  6.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meanwhile, science is attempting to <a href="http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-05/departments/physics-of-bras/" rel="nofollow">build the perfect bra</a>. "In some cases, breasts can slap against the chest with enough force to break the clavicle."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2005  7:02 AM by Julie L.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101216</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 07:02:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #216 from Faren Miller</title>
         <description>comment from Faren Miller on  6.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was anyone else here interested in today's NY Times article (Magazine section) on "Literary Darwinism"? Though I tend to distrust most "isms" -- which always seem to lead to dogma, infighting, etc. -- this one's emphasis on the science of fiction might have something or other in common with <i>some</i> SF. Or not? At any rate, it doesn't sound like the utterly insular drivel of bad academia.</p>

<p>Since this is Sunday and I've been online reading the "newspapers" for ages, I can't say anything more coherent at this point!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2005  2:27 PM by Faren Miller&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101228</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 14:27:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #217 from Clark E Myers</title>
         <description>comment from Clark E Myers on  6.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>"Literary Darwinism" .....emphasis on the science of fiction might have something or other in common with some SF. Or not?</i></p>

<p>Niven's Phssthpok the Pak and the Brennan monster at least. Heinlein writes about Bonobo with bigger brains.</p>

<p>On the other hand if there is anything at all without "something or other in common with <i>some</i> SF" then once announced it will be the most popular story idea of the month.</p>

<p>I'd have thought PET scans superior to magnetic resonence imaging for the research but what do I know?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2005  3:09 PM by Clark E Myers&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101230</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:09:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #218 from Tim Walters</title>
         <description>comment from Tim Walters on  7.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/4415100.stm" rel="nofollow">John Fowles dead at 79</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  7, 2005  1:38 PM by Tim Walters&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101260</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101260</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 13:38:43 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #219 from Sandy</title>
         <description>comment from Sandy on  7.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any suggestions on how to handle the Monty Hall problem from a moderator's standpoint? </p>

<p>The last time it was brought up, the argument lasted six months or more; I still have the scars. </p>

<p>It is four years later, I'm now a mod on that board, and someone brought it up again. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  7, 2005  3:19 PM by Sandy&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101272</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101272</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:19:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #220 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on  8.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molded cup bras, PtuiPtuiPtuiPtuiPtui [misadventures in shopping, or Who the O#Y#$IH@@# are these supposed to be made for, anyway? Not me, fersure!) [Tried some of the @#!*@#^%#@ things on Monday night. PtuiPtuiPtuiPtui. Old-fashioned corsets are <i>adjustable</i> The Mouldered Monstrosities aren't.] </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  8, 2005 11:47 PM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101370</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101370</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 08 Nov 2005 23:47:48 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #221 from fidelio</title>
         <description>comment from fidelio on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A knitted digestive system!</p>

<p>http://www.strangebuttrewe.com/Crafty.htm<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005  8:24 AM by fidelio&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101388</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101388</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 08:24:30 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #222 from Laura Roberts</title>
         <description>comment from Laura Roberts on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Molded cup bras?  That's nasty.  Although it does remind me of the cups two of my fellow fencing students used to wear.</p>

<p>On another subject, I believe there are some haggis fans around here.  The Vermont Country Store is now selling tinned haggis.  As a holiday treat, apparently.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005 10:06 AM by Laura Roberts&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101396</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101396</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 10:06:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #223 from Lexica</title>
         <description>comment from Lexica on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my experience, bras in general aren't terribly adjustable. If the cups don't fit, the bra won't fit, regardless of how much you adjust the straps or which hooks you use to fasten the band. Since I'm resigned to a lengthy search each time I need a new bra, I'm willing to search a little farther to find a bra that doesn't have seams in the cups.</p>

<p>Signed, <br />
     You Might Be Surprised How Hard It Is To Find A 36A Bra And No, 34B Is Absolutely Not Equivalent No Matter What Anyone Says</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005 12:35 PM by Lexica&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101420</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101420</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:35:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #224 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lexica: there are worse problems than that. The two, um, halves are not necessarily the same size, and can be noticeably different sizes. I'm considering going custom-made. My mother was surprised how much difference a properly-fitted bra made.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005 12:43 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101422</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101422</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 12:43:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #225 from Marilee</title>
         <description>comment from Marilee on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lexica, I buy bras and underwear here:</p>

<p>http://www.decentexposures.com</p>

<p>They'll work with you to get the bra right.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005  4:47 PM by Marilee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101486</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101486</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:47:40 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #226 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Molded cup bras, Ptui[etc.]</i></p>

<p>That's odd, Barbie didn't complain once in the bench tests.</p>

<p>Next up:  Nitinol Underwires -- It Knows When You Are(tm).*  And for the gentlemen, Trojan Graphite and Durex DU.</p>

<p>BoingBoing can't get <i>all</i> the, er, scoops.</p>

<p>*Slogan tested 13.4% better than "Deploys for the Boys."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005  5:13 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101490</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101490</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:13:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #227 from John M. Ford</title>
         <description>comment from John M. Ford on  9.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TV closed captions do interesting things sometimes.</p>

<p>There was just a clip on The Weather Channel that was captioned "Mission to Venus blasted off today for Europe."</p>

<p>Bloody metric/English confusion again, I suppose.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  9, 2005  5:16 PM by John M. Ford&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101491</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101491</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:16:52 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #228 from JennR</title>
         <description>comment from JennR on 10.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lexica:</p>

<p>Victoria's Secret has over 35 styles in 36A.  I know, I used to wear that size.  Then I had kids, and now I wear a 38B.  They're not that much easier to find, as most bra-makers seem to think that anyone wearing a 38 band *must* be fluffy.</p>

<p>I also had good luck with Playtex <a href="http://www.onehanesplace.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce/CategoryDisplay?cgnbr=30G0000000" rel="nofollow">Thank Goodness it Fits</a> line.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November 10, 2005  7:33 AM by JennR&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101550</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101550</guid>
         <pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:33:12 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Open Thread 52 -- comment #229 from Paula Lieberman</title>
         <description>comment from Paula Lieberman on 11.Nov.05</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven't been inside a Victoria's Secret in -years-.  There are two main reasons, first one is "nothing in here to fit me," the second one was the chemical pollution that was apparent even -outside- the store.  I don't go into most beauty parlors, either, given a choice--some years back when my parents were still in Florida and I was visiting them, my mother went every week to have her hair done.  I walked in and it was <i>Instant Migraine</i> from the nasty chemicals in the air in the stuff like the hairspray.  Ugh, ugh, ugh, ugh! </p>

<p>Victoria's Secret may or may not still use whatever it was to scent the place that sent my sinuses into revolt, I haven't had the inclination to make the experiment and go inside one in quite a long time. </p>

<p>Mike: Barbie had cones.  Cones, melons, cannonballs, torpedoes... different shapes.  Hmm, Barbie is like silicone pads? (artificial inflation...). </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November 11, 2005  3:49 AM by Paula Lieberman&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101637</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006924.html#101637</guid>
         <pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2005 03:49:48 -0500</pubDate>
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