There were two moments when I exclaimed in outrage. I won't Spoil, but they both involved deaths.

Peter Jackson would be a much better filmmaker if he realized that being Peter Jackson is better than being George Lucas, and stopped borrowing things.

Posted December 17, 2003 3:26 PM by Xopher

Sorry, meant to say I loved it too. Better than the other two even.

Posted December 17, 2003 3:27 PM by Xopher

Yes. And I'll bet I know which scenes you have in mind.

Posted December 17, 2003 3:51 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

". . . Patrick joined us just before Helm's Deep."

An editor is never early, nor is he late. He always arrives precisely when the infinitive is about to be split.

Posted December 17, 2003 3:52 PM by John M. Ford

While I will not be able to see it for a few days, I will say that I had the same gobsmack experience in the earlier movies -- the interior of Bag End and the exteriors of Edoras. Both the shots from a distance of the whole town of Edoras against the mountains and the shot of Eowyn on the porch of Meduseld were both far beyond and far better than the picture in my head. Just the little I have been able to pick out of the trailer looks superb.

I can hardly wait. You lucky dogs, you.

Posted December 17, 2003 4:29 PM by Claude Muncey

Please forgive my ignorance of early English, but what does 'Waes thu Peter Jackson hael' mean?

ObLOTR: Can't wait to see ROTK myself, the first two were just gorgeous...

Posted December 17, 2003 4:34 PM by Stephan Brun

Smart weblog commentary on Tolkien and Jackson: this, and this response to it.

Posted December 17, 2003 4:39 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Claude, Edoras was the point where I started sniffling.

Mike, that movie-watching party had three editors in it, all of whom turned out to have strong opinions about Jackson's handling of expository lumps.

Posted December 17, 2003 4:39 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

If I'm not terribly mistaken, "Waes thu hael" (or 'hal') is the basic origin of 'wassail' -- a toast to good health and fortune, for all practical purposes.

A quick google search suggests I am not terribly mistaken, and also suggests "be whole" or "good health" as an actual translation.

Of course, now that I have typed this, 14 other people will have written something much better, but that's okay. :)

Posted December 17, 2003 4:54 PM by Tina

"Both the shots from a distance of the whole town of Edoras against the mountains and the shot of Eowyn on the porch of Meduseld were both far beyond and far better than the picture in my head."

There's a nice bit about the creation (simulation?) of Edoras in TTT Extended Edition DVD.

It's freaking unbelieveable, what they did, and how they did it. And they cleaned up after themselves when they were done, because the totally perfect location for the city was in a national park.

I was wondering, the other day, what a theme park designed by Jackson's crew -- the WETA people and all -- would be like. Probably really good. Maybe too good; folks might not want to leave.

Posted December 17, 2003 4:54 PM by Stefan Jones

Eowyn kicks ass

Whew! I was sore afraid that she'd be robbed of her big moment, which is my favourite scene in all the books.

Posted December 17, 2003 5:22 PM by sennoma

Tina: Thanks, now I can parse it as something like 'you be well, Peter Jackson'. Very appropriate.

Posted December 17, 2003 5:26 PM by Stephan Brun

Nah, sennoma, Peter Jackson knows he'd get too much hatemail. The Nosedrool meets its destined fate.

Posted December 17, 2003 5:28 PM by Xopher

David Elliott of the San Diego Union-Tribune disagrees.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20031216-9999_1c16lord.html

I'm not inclinced to read any other reviews by him.

Posted December 17, 2003 5:41 PM by Scott Janssens

I have to wonder, did David Elliot actually read the book? Or did he just read about the book?

Posted December 17, 2003 5:50 PM by Stephan Brun

Stefan, I get to work with a bunch of crazy New Zelanders -- there are several fields where N.Z. is just about the best in the world and designing and operating large dairy facilities is one of them. Not only do they love the films, in a strangely patriotic sort of way, they recognize a lot of the locations (or at least claim to). They regaled me with their version of what would have happened to Jackson if he had not cleaned up after himself.

Throwing him to orcs would be kinder . . .

Posted December 17, 2003 5:54 PM by Claude Muncey

I was at Trilogy Tuesday in Pittsburgh yesterday, along with Jim, Leslie and a friend from work.

I have really mixed feelings about ROTK. I don't know how much it is because I was really exhausted by the time ROTK finally started, or if the movie has some serious structural problems.

There are astonishing scenes in the movie, and it will definitely win the Best Special Effects Oscar (not to mention the Dramatic Presentation Hugo). But it does not seem to hang together that well.
Characters disappear without comment and there are some pretty amazing coincidences.

I plan to go see it again this weekend, when I've had a little more sleep and haven't spent the day watching the other LOTR movies.

Posted December 17, 2003 5:59 PM by Laurie Mann

Re: "...a pre-industrial society fielding an army whose cloaks are all the exact same shade..."

They subcontract the dyeing to the elves. Their colorsense, you know...

Posted December 17, 2003 6:11 PM by Brad DeLong

Nonsense, Brad. Elves might be killed in battle, but left alone they would never dye.

Posted December 17, 2003 6:18 PM by Alan Bostick

But Alan, think of the fading!

I'll go with Brad's explanation. I was bugged by this when the archers showed up at Helm's Deep. Since as far as we know the elves don't have a standing military, I had to figure that either they keep complete stashes of all the various uniforms they might have to wear, or they paused in a moment of urgent need to make up all those perfectly matching cloaks. I also figured that marching in perfect unison must be a bit of a fetish with them, since Middle Earth doesn't have drill instructors or a manual of arms.

If elves can manufacture aniline-dyed stretch velour -- that being Rivendell's fabric of choice -- they can do anything. What I balked at was believing that the Rohirrim could manage that kind of sophisticated manufacture, especially when they've been on the losing side of a war of attrition.

See also, Jane Yolen's theory that hidden away just over the hill in Fantasyland are embroidery sweatshops, since everyone's clothing has embroidery on it but you never see it being done.

Posted December 17, 2003 6:38 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Haven't seen this one yet, but recently saw the extended Two Towers, and could finally identify what rotted my socks about it so very much.

The generousity has been leeched out of it, along with the restraint.

Which is why I don't think Peter Jackson understands the Rohirrim at all. Employed people well able to present their material culture, oh yes, but social culture?

Pfft.

(The elf cloaks and armor, like the elves, were from Lothlorien; one of, and indeed the chief of, powers of the Elf-rings is to prevent things from fading and diminishing in the rushing swift years of Middle-Earth. I can't see why Galadriel would particular avoid extending that general power to fabric.)

Posted December 17, 2003 6:58 PM by Graydon

Forget the clothes. I want to know where Minas Tirith keeps its lawnmowers. And, for that matter, what in the world does everyone eat? The only farmers we ever seem to see are Hobbits.

Posted December 17, 2003 7:07 PM by kest

I enjoyed it too, but as for rushed, well, I think the whole second half of the entirety has been rushed since the last hour of Two Towers (theatrical version); almost as though suddenly Jackson realized he was running out of time to tell the whole thing.

The Mount Doom sequence was dragged out too long and the cheesy slow mo of Gollum sailing to his end was like the worst cable-pay movie sequence.

Two more complaints: I'm sick of the stupid eye ball/search light and the same tedious backdrop of Mordor mountains with lightning and fire. Jackson never used the maps or the true scale of the journey's distance to best effect.

Okay, I'm done venting. (sorry....)

Posted December 17, 2003 7:37 PM by John Farrell

Kest: They are obviously all on Atkins', so there's no market for grain

Posted December 17, 2003 8:02 PM by Stephan Brun

The folk of Minas Tirith keep the grass short with sheep. They eat the sheep as mutton. The Sheep-herders Carols and Chanties are famed across all Middle-Earth, though the sheep-herders themselves, as they smell of dung and lanolin, aren't allowed out when Polite Company arrives.

Re: Elvish uniforms and close-order drill. Little known but true is that among the major passtimes in Lothlorien musical theatre plays a large role. The Elves who show up to the defense of Helm's Deep had rushed there from a performance of Utopia, Ltd. without bothering to change. (The deaths of so many members of the male chorus quite devastated the following season's performance of Iolanthe.)

Posted December 17, 2003 9:21 PM by James D. Macdonald

We also see farmers in Rohan. At least I assume that's what the villagers in the first scenes were up to.

I assumed all the armor was left over from the last time the elves went to war and just stored somewhere out of sight protected by elf enchantments.

If you're interested in reviews of the movies, along with some of my opinions, you could check out where I blog about it. I haven't actually seen the movie yet you understand, but I talk a bit about the first 2 and link to reviews and things of the 3rd.

We're seeing it Friday afternoon with a bunch of other Seattle fen.

Even David Bratman, a Tolkien scholar who hates everything, particularly the first 2 movies and large parts of the 3rd, recommends that you see this movie.

MKK

Posted December 18, 2003 12:04 AM by Mary Kay

I just got back from it and I loved the movie and I will see it soon on matinee. However I had a couple of serious problems beyond the complete lack of agricultural facilities anywhere in Gondor and they involved the military aspects of the movies.

Both Helms Deep and Minas Tirith were fortresses that were designed by their very nature to withstand seige and bombardment for long periods of time. Fortresses are designed so small garrisons can hold off massive beseiging armies. Midevil and early modern European history normally indicates that a prepared fortress with resolute defenders could withstand bombardment for weeks at a time and they rarely quickly fell unless good surrender terms were offered or massive trickery was used. However Minas Tirith started to fall apart as soon as it was hit with a single projectile. Helms Deep was tougher as its walls were only breached by gunpowder which is far more realistic, but neither fortress held up well to bombardment.

My second major complaint of the movies' military sense was the vast supremecy of calvary over infantry in most situations. In the Two Towers the calvary patrol that allowed Merry and Pippin to escape makes sense, infantry being surprised in relatively open ground will get slaughtered. However at both Helms Deep and Minas Tirith, calvary charged disciplined, well equipped infantry that was equipped with both pole and missile weapons and ran right over the infantry. As a friend of mine said at Two Towers "What the Orcs needed were a regiment of Swiss Pike" to hold the line.

Finally, where the hell were the logistics units? I never saw a food cart, I never saw a spare horse, I never saw an ambulance etc.

Posted December 18, 2003 2:18 AM by fester

fester, when the Rohirrim ride out of the valley where they've been mustering, you see that there are still tents set up. I thought this odd, but immediately it occurred to me that these were the support units, and they obviously wouldn't be along until later.

Posted December 18, 2003 2:52 AM by Madeline

Actually some of the more mundane details were mentioned in the books. References to hay wains and so forth. But you must remember, Tolkien was decidedly not concerned with realistic detail -- he was avowedly and specifically creating myth. Most myths don't tell you how much food they took aboard the Argo or how exactly the Greeks and Trojans kept themselves supplied during that peskily long war. Mundane details such as that are not the concern of heroic myth. Before you start complaining about lacks and flaws best be sure of the creator's intent.

MKK

Posted December 18, 2003 3:47 AM by Mary Kay

I loved it. I have some gripes, though. The scale of Anorien, Mordor, and Ithilien was very weird. Perhaps a mile from Minas Tirith to Osgiliath and another mile to Minas Morgul? Mordor a few miles across? (And where was Rammas Echor?) And why that fluorescent mass sweeping through Minas Tirith? And why, why, *why* didn't the death of the Witch-King reverberate through the hordes of Mordor?

But the Pelennor scene was powerful, immensely powerful. One of several scenes that drew tears from my eyes. The charge of the Rohirrim; I loved it in the book, I loved it in the silver screen. Plot be damned, what I love about the films is the settings and how the magnificent battle scenes illustrate the book.

And very little Arwen, yay!

Posted December 18, 2003 7:48 AM by Johan A

Enjoyed it myself, far more than I expected to -- the lack of the Scouring was less important than I expected it to be. I also found it very draining to watch. Shelob was really scary. The Oliphaunts were over the top, and not in a good way -- Jackson seems quite willing to be seduced by the dark side of the CGI (though everyone got a laugh out of Legolas there). Dave Nee's reaction was positive as well, but he went in and came out believing that this is just an extremely long trailer for the real film, which is the extended version. That was borne out in the case of the first two films (Denethor and Faramir, in this film, would make little sense without the scenes involving them in the extended TWO TOWERS, for example).

Alan Lee did an amazing job of design, indeed he did.

Posted December 18, 2003 8:06 AM by Tom Whitmore

Very great store long prepared; that's what the errand-rider of Gondor says to The9oden King when that King says that the riders of Rohan cannot bring many supplies with them if they come in haste, so can Gondor feed them? (Though The9oden said it more politely than that.)

The Pelannor is the farms; the 10 league (thirty mile) three quarter circle from the city walls that appears to do most of the regular feeding of the city. It's easy to see how this isn't going to make it into the movie's visuals until after there are orcs all over it.

Posted December 18, 2003 9:10 AM by Graydon

I had intermittent problems with the geography too, as I did in the previous two films. (For instance, as the hobbits are walking out of the Shire, they shouldn't have mountains of that size in view.) Edoras, Helm's Deep, Minas Tirith, and the Ephel Duath shouldn't seem quite as close together as some shots would suggest they are. Then again, there's something charmingly medieval about this kind of elastic scale. And in the breathtaking beacon-lighting scene, Edoras and Minas Tirith suddenly seem properly distant, because we traverse the entire distance in a series of aerial mountain shots.

I'm not sure I agree with Mary Kay's suggestion that "before you start complaining about lacks and flaws best be sure of the creator's intent". Plenty of lousy art is full of good intent, which does nothing to make it any less lousy. What common sense calls upon us to keep in mind are things like context and genre. Which is exactly the point Mary Kay was making before she accidentally sidetracked herself into the vexed issue of "intent."

Posted December 18, 2003 9:27 AM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Just a few of my thoughts.

The orc catapults are far too effective. The trebuchets were way cool, and more realistic in terms of what they accomplished.

If the War Oliphaunts had been trimmed, maybe there could have been some mention of why Denethor had driven himself insane as he did his poor best to save Gondor. Maybe we could have also gotten the healing power of the King, which was kind of important.

I was very sorry we didn't get Legolas' reaction to seeing and hearing seagulls....

I know why that was trimmed, but I liked Ban Guri Ban (going from memory here, sorry for the spelling) and the Hill People.

Why hadn't Sam lost weight on the trip? By the time they got to Mordor, he should have been somewhere between lean and gaunt. And why weren't Pippin and Merry taller than the other two throughout this movie? If you've seen the extended version of TTT, then you know Jackson did have them grow from the Ent draughts.

I know we have to wait till fall to see the last of Saruman. Drat.

I'm one of those who felt the scouring was an importand part of the sense of ages turning, and of the loss of what was good in the past. I'm disappointed by its absence, and by the seamless return of the hobbits. OTOH, I had tears running into my beard at the Grey Havens.

Do I want to see this movie again? Better believe it! Will I want the extended version as soon as possible? Hell--I want it NOW! Do I wish I could offer Peter Jackson another couple of hundred million to go back and finish it? Oh, yes....

And, do I recommend others to see it? Absolutely! Because every viewer will have a different set of reactions, and in the long run I'd like to be able to discuss them.

At least, that's this old fart's opinion.

Posted December 18, 2003 9:36 AM by Elric

I agree with Laurie Mann.

And what happened to the Arwen of who raced to the Ford?

---L.

Posted December 18, 2003 9:57 AM by LNHammer

The scale problems are less a matter of bad geography than a difference in media, I think. That is, I don't think that things are actually any closer together in the movies, but that they've just left out the boring travel time, because there's just no good way to put it in the movie.

In text, you can throw in a sentence or two noting how much time people spent getting from place to place, even if nothing interesting happened on the way, but that's very hard to do on film. You can give some impression of the passage of time by sequences of shots at diferent times of day, but that eats up screen time, which is already tight. And your only other options are to try to work it in in dialogue ("As you know, Denethor, we've been riding for three days..."), or put titles up on the screen ("Three Days Later..."), neither of which is a good option.

Posted December 18, 2003 10:41 AM by Chad Orzel

Note that it's easier to write that an army of several thousand laid seige to the city than to actually hire an army of extras. (or even to animate them)

By the way, am I the only person who sees a package of "Keebler Elfin Crackers" in the store and wants to correct the spelling to Elven? I guess Elven crackers would be lembas.

Posted December 18, 2003 10:53 AM by Erik Nelson

Chad: yes, but I would have liked *some* indication of the passage of time, though, because I got confused and thought that a day was missing somewhere in terms of people getting to the Pelennor Fields all at once.

TNH: The charge of the Rohirrim at Pelennor Fields had an invisible caption under it that said It is more fun to be cavalry than infantry.

And it is more fun to be cavalry on 80-foot mutant elephants, too.

Posted December 18, 2003 10:58 AM by Kate Nepveu

Elven crackers are the ones that say "Elen sila lumenn omen tielvo, y'all."

Posted December 18, 2003 11:01 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

My own review/thoughts are here:

http://www.gamersnook.com/blog/archives/001908.html#001908

Amazing stuff. Rushed in the end, I felt, but that's what the extended version will be for. Breathtaking, especially the Rohirrim, Pelennor Fields, and the Witch King.

Posted December 18, 2003 11:28 AM by Scott

Note that it's easier to write that an army of several thousand laid seige to the city than to actually hire an army of extras. (or even to animate them)

Which explains why there are many more books in which armies of thousands lay seige to a city than there are movies in which armies of thousands lay seige to a city. Big battle scenes can be done, but they're difficult to do, and extremely difficult to do well.

The return on investment is much better for battle scenes than for chronology, though. If you put in the extra effort to do a big battle scene well, everybody will appreciate it, while if you work hard to ensure that there's a clear sense of the amount of time spent travelling, you'll make a small number of hard-ore fans happy, while making basically no impression on the vast majority of your audience (and you may even annoy some of them).

Posted December 18, 2003 12:29 PM by Chad Orzel

'By the way, am I the only person who sees a package of "Keebler Elfin Crackers" in the store and wants to correct the spelling to Elven? I guess Elven crackers would be lembas.'

DON'T . . . GIVE . . . THEM . . . ANY . . . IDEAS.

Hell, Nabisco could send sales of its obscure Pilot Wafers through the roof if they stuck a picture of Orlando Bloom on the box.

"Mundane details such as that are not the concern of heroic myth."

I agree. Fantasy that tries to shoehorn magic into physics . . . isn't.

But just to feed this fire a little: I recall that the lands SW of Minas Tirith, west of the river, had farms and such.

Posted December 18, 2003 12:29 PM by Stefan Jones

"Note that it's easier to write that an army of several thousand laid seige to the city than to actually hire an army of extras"

According to my local paper yesterday, the trilogy used 20,602 extras, 48,000 swords, shields and other weapons, and 15,000 costumes. That's a bigger army than, say, William I at Hastings, or Henry V at Agincourt.

The scale of the production, of course, explains why all these extras are in uniforms--it would be way too costly in today's world to costume that many people except through mass production.

Posted December 18, 2003 12:53 PM by rea

Haven't seen any of the three movies yet because I'm going to read the book first in order to refresh my memory on the details, but you all certainly have whetted my appetite.

Here's a positive review by Shawn Levy, movie critic at my hometown newspaper, The Oregonian:
http://www.oregonlive.com/movies/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/exclude/1071665737124470.xml

Posted December 18, 2003 12:54 PM by Toni

There were two particular points in the film that I thought were so ridiculous and/or nonsensical that they really should have totyally derailed my enjoyment of it. Yet the rest of the film (by which I mean the vast, vast majority of it) is so damn delicious and magnificent that my inner nitpicker is out cold and not expected to awaken for a few days.

PJ did a truly masterful job of expressing the simultaneity of the last stand before the Black Gate and the last climb up Mount Doom-- and using Sam and Frodo to echo the Isildur/Elrond scene from the first film was a stroke of visual genius.

I expected to really miss the Mouth of Sauron, as he added personality to the faceless Mordor hordes and to his shy, retiring master-- but when the Black Gate finally opened, I didn't miss him for one second. That was my hand-over-mouth moment-- the sheer, malevolent beauty of Barad-Dur and Mount Doom afire in the distance, with the Eye's blood-red light diffused through clouds of steam and smoke.

The conception and presentation of Mordor has been one of the highlights of the films for me. It's awe-inspiring but never serene, empty and eerie but never restful. Every rock and every crag seems truly imbued with malice-- you can feel your lips and throat parching while Frodo and Sam trudge through it onscreen.

Shelob is indeed magnificently done. My old pet tarantula Neal would approve. I'm not an arachnophobe, but half the audience around me last night is now if they weren't before.

My thoughts are still a bit scattered at the moment; the thing about these films is that they apologize for their occasional silly moments and missteps by totally kicking your ass with everything else. Never has a beating been so sweet.

Posted December 18, 2003 12:56 PM by Scott Lynch

What happened to the Arwen who raced to the ford? Heck, what happened to the Arwen who's supposed to be Luthien come again? Luthien was one tough cookie.

Fester, the logistics bothered me, too. The Rohirrim set off for Gondor with one horse apiece and no visible supply train. The orcs have no quartermasters.

I had my say at the time The Two Towers came out concerning the probable outcome of a closely-packed cavalry charge down an extremely steep slope when there are massed pike formations waiting at the bottom.

As long as we're in full nitpick mode: During the battle of Helm's Deep, when we see the noncombatants back in the caves? There are women and children and a few old people. Where are the disabled? The Rohirrim have rudimentary medical technology, and as far as I know they don't kill off their own sick and wounded. Along with the usual congenital problems and illness, they've got a lifestyle guaranteed to produce crippling injuries. If warfare doesn't do it to them, falls from horseback will.

And for pete's sake, does no one in Rohan own a comb? We're supposed to believe that these people keep tidy steadings, work ornamental braiding into their horses' harnesses, and carve elaborate interlaced bands into the walls of their houses, but never think to comb out and plait up their own hair.

Posted December 18, 2003 1:02 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Mind, I adore these films.

Posted December 18, 2003 1:04 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

"totyally ." Damn, I wasn't kidding when I said I haven't recovered from the experience. Sigh. Caffeine will make me right again.

***Spoiler Warning!***

I just wanted to add one more thing, concerning Gollum's plunge at the end. The camera zooms in on Gollum's beatific smile as he and the Ring drop toward the fire-- and then he hits the lava and slips under, with barely a change of expression, gazing at his Precious to the last. I found this the polar opposite of ridiculous-- I thought it was essential.

Gollum doesn't fall into the fire just because he's doing a little end-zone dance and slips. He isn't pushed by Frodo. He doesn't even really overbalance while fending Frodo off. The point of the climax in the book-- a point that is retained by its presentation in the film-- is that Gollum is so consumed with the joy of possessing his Precious, so blinded with avarice, that (like the Dark Lord) he pays no heed to his imminent peril. He doesn't lose his footing-- he loses his perspective.

The power of the Ring, and the blinding nature of greed, are both clearly expressed by the image of Gollum falling to his fiery death with his eyes joyfully fixed on the Precious. Had it been otherwise, a great deal of the spirit of Tolkien would have been lost from films that have already cut it in a few conspicuous places-- but preserving this part reduces most of the other excisions to trivial status for me.

Also, the sight of the inscription upon the Ring being brought out by the heat of the lava beneath it is a stunning image in a film that's just bloody crammed with stunning images-- but that one might be the best of all.

Posted December 18, 2003 1:15 PM by Scott Lynch

I have to disagree, Scott. The whole crack of doom sequence I found unforgivably stretched out--and the added toying insult of watching the ring float around for a few seconds was just bullshit. (Followed by the pathetic Stalag-17 eye-ball/searchlight nonsense to boot).

After so long a trek at the end of these movies, Jackson should have executed that entire last sequence with lighting speed. Instead, his tedious over-reliance on slow motion enervates the climax and for me saps the whole story of its intended power.

A good review I think is this one by Jonathan Last.

Posted December 18, 2003 1:27 PM by John Farrell

"Haven't seen any of the three movies yet because I'm going to read the book first in order to refresh my memory on the details"

Toni, you may want to consider holding off on that re-read until after you've seen the films. I hadn't read Lord of the Rings in ages, and decided I'd rather go into the theatre cold than with the book fresh on my mind. I'm glad that I did; while my Tolkien fanatic friends were wincing periodically, I was blissfully ignorant of the changes that were made to the theatrical version.

Of course, even die-hard purists I've talked to tend to love the movies, so re-reading the book probably won't significantly affect your enjoyment of the adaptation. Carry on! Don't mind me!

Posted December 18, 2003 1:34 PM by Phil Lee

I have to disagree, Scott. The whole crack of doom sequence I found unforgivably stretched out--and the added toying insult of watching the ring float around for a few seconds was just bullshit. (Followed by the pathetic Stalag-17 eye-ball/searchlight nonsense to boot).

To be fair, there aren't many ways to movie-fy the concept of the invisible-yet-palpable gaze of Sauron, short of having the characters say something like, "I can feel his burning gaze upon me!" I think they were aiming high in this regard. And I do concur to some extent-- the effect could have been much creepier had it been a bit less literally like a searchlight.

As for the floating Ring, well, I'm sorry it didn't do it for you, John. But when we're discussing a malicious and near-sentient magical artifact serving as the focal point for the worldly power of a Dark Lord, I'm not really prepared to get my innards in a twist over its buoyancy.

I mean, we've already seen that it can slip on or off a wearer's finger at will, re-size itself to fit its holder, call out to its holder by that person's name, and be thrown into a fire without becoming hot to the touch. Is it really that much of a stretch to accept that it wouldn't dissolve or sink without a fight? My take was that it was resisting its destruction for the last few seconds its magical nature could buy it. After all, it wanted to find the hand of its master, not get itself thrown into the soup.

Posted December 18, 2003 1:42 PM by Scott Lynch

A place where I might not feel so guilty about my gripes! I liked the third film far better than the second or the first. I felt that some of the cuts in the third were understandable, even the Scouring of the Shire, although it is a piece I loved in the books, since it provides vindication of the hobbit's adventuring from their own kind, and they come into their own, all without the help of anybody else.

Glad Eowyn's scene was more or less intact too--people clapped during her scene, more than they did at the end of the film even.

Had a couple issues with Peter Jackson's battle tactics, some of which had me biting my lips in frustration. (Also wondering how they got large pieces of masonry, intact, keystones, arches, and all, into the catapult cradles, and furthermore, why did those pieces stay intact while hurtling through the air and/or smashing to the ground?) Why did Faramir wait a few minutes for the orcs to run by at Osgiliath--I thought for a moment they must have some subtle plan to delay the capture of Osgiliath a few days hence, which would give Rohan time to come to their aid. Instead, they merely waited a while to rush to battle, letting orcs go by in the meantime, and effectively cut off their retreat. That can't be good.

Also, there were a number of small issues I wanted resolved a little more concretely, ie, the fate of the mithril shirt leading the Armies of the West to momentary dispair, Faramir and Eowyn's love story, Saruman's loss of power, Denethor's possession of a palantir leading to his eventual madness, Aragorn's assumption of the palantir found at Isengard, that sort of thing. The seeds were all planted visually, but never came to fruition, which I find rather frustrating.

I'll link to the rest of my personal gripes below, and if anybody else wants to join in the bitchfest, they're welcome. Otherwise the rest of my remarks--at least the ones here--shall be more or less laudatory in nature.

Things I loved:

+ Shelob - Scared the shit out of me a couple of times, and did far more justice to my mental picture than I ever would have supposed.

+ Eowyn - Pretty damn good job there, both scared and determined at once. Miranda Otto did a good job of portraying the hopelessness and frustration Eowyn felt at being a woman in a very "male" society.

+ Nazgul and Minas Morgul--pretty frickin' cool. The stair at Cirith Ungol was also pretty visually arresting.

+ The Grey Havens - nice depiction, although a little inaccurate when referring to the Last Boat to leave Middle Earth--if I recall from the appendices, Sam also makes a final journey to the Havens.

+ Design of Minas Tirith - Pretty cool--could have used a little more latitude in the breadth of the lower circles, but still awesome.

+ The Beacons of Gondor - ROXOR! The distances involved made the whole thing seem much more grand in scope. (Can't say I liked Pippin's intervention in lighting the beacon, as that didn't happen in the book, but I can see why Jackson made that change.)

+ Liked the design of the Corsair ships and the Oliphaunts, even if I felt the Oliphaunt head riders looked a little too Mad Max.

+ Smeagol's transformation to Gollum, visually very good. (I thought the dialogue changes were a bit too abrupt, but otherwise....)

Return of the King thoughts

Two Towers mini-review

Lord of the Really Gooey Things, or why I had issues with the Fellowship: You might want to skip the part about me being sick as a dog, although it might provide context for a certain amount of my animosity.

---------

RE: The Keebler Elves and elfin vs. elven: I always thought of elfin as pertaining to non-elves, like she had elfin features, meaning she was delicate. (Not she had elven features, meaning that she actually HAD elven features.) Also, I noticed that "elfin" seemed to be really common in the Victorian and Edwardian romances.

As such I couldn't really classify the Keebler elves as Elven, because they don't seem particularly Elven to me. They seem more like little friendly gnomes.

BTW, have you noticed that the Keebler elves, much like the Smurfs, are nearly all male. Have you ever seen a FEMALE Keebler elf? Are the corporate rules about their particular mascot opposed to showing female Keebler elves, or are they like the Ent-wives, who left and were never seen again?

Posted December 18, 2003 1:53 PM by PiscusFiche

Patrick: What a very gentle and polite correction, and, while I see your point, I am not sure I agree with you. Tolkien intended to create myth. Myths have certain features and lack others. Criticizing a myth because it lacks things myths do not have seems -- peculiar. Perhaps I was again merely being too telegraphic, as is my wont, in saying what I meant. It is possible we are in violent agreement.

Damn. I can't believe I still have to wait more than 24 hours before I see this. Hmm. Wonder if any of today's showings have tickets available...

MKK

Posted December 18, 2003 2:23 PM by Mary Kay

"I want to know where Minas Tirith keeps its lawnmowers."

Well, it's not in Minas Tirith, but you might recall that Sam's excuse when caught evesdropping by Gandalf back at Bag End in the first book/movie is, in effect, that he's mowing the lawn (at night).

Posted December 18, 2003 2:45 PM by rea

They keep very small white goats for cropping the lawn to an acceptable height. The goats were given to the line of the Stewards of Gondor ages ago, and are very sought after. You can find them on eBay.

Posted December 18, 2003 2:48 PM by PiscusFiche

My major gripe is the lack of resolution for several more-than-minor-but-not-a-part-of-the-fellowship characters (Eowyn, Faramir, even Denethor, Eomer - dude, shouldn't he be a king now? etc). However, since I was busy wiping away the constant stream of tears from the climax at Pellinor Fields to the hobbits wandering back to the Shire, I didn't mind too much. I also forgot about my arachnophobia in my excitement for the movie. I just never made the connection that I hate spiders and Shelob's the Mother of All Spiders. As soon as Shelob appeared on screen, however, my memory returned and all connections were made. I didn't catch much of her cinematic debut. The parts I did see made me curse PJ and WETA for their stunning CG abilities.

Scott, with you 100% on the ring business. I thought it was amazing how Gollum was so enamored of his precious that he didn't really notice his rather uncomfortable surroundings. Very key to the story and adds further elements to his character.

My favorite sequence was Billy Boyd's little ditty to entertain Denethor's face-stuffing session. Next in line is the signal fires scene. I need to see it again before I can sort out more of the individual elements of the end of the movie - too much happening, too many tears, too many thoughts about how it was almost over.

Posted December 18, 2003 3:33 PM by Kellie

The awful spirit of pedantry compells me to point out that Shelob isn't the Mother of All Spiders; Ungoilant, who helped Morgoth destroy the Two Tress of Valinor, is the Mother of All (Big, nasty, homophagous) Spiders.

Posted December 18, 2003 3:59 PM by Graydon

I mean, we've already seen that it can slip on or off a wearer's finger at will, re-size itself to fit its holder, call out to its holder by that person's name, and be thrown into a fire without becoming hot to the touch. Is it really that much of a stretch to accept that it wouldn't dissolve or sink without a fight? My take was that it was resisting its destruction for the last few seconds its magical nature could buy it.

True, and that is consistent I suppose. My problem is I found some of those effects grow equally annoying throughout the films.

On the plus side (so I don't come across as a complete carmudgeon), I was weeping at the death of Theoden, as well as Gandalf's beautiful monologue to Pippin about the far West in the middle of the siege. Breathtaking tracking shots as the camera followed Gandalf galloping up the levels of Minas Tirith.

Shelob sequence was... absolutely... perfect.

Two questions: Why did Bilbo age so much more ontop of his already hastened age from just a few months before? And what's up with the Charles Laughton/Hunchback lookalike Orc chieftan?

@-)

Posted December 18, 2003 4:00 PM by John Farrell

I feel the exact opposite about the Gollum/Ring sequence. Since when are humans (or hobbits) more dense than molten rock, which is mostly iron? And significantly more dense, given the speed of sinking. Possible, but unlikely, is that the speed of his falling pushed him under -- but molten rock is _dense!_

On the other hand, it was established that it took a lot to heat up the ring. And if you notice, it's floating on a little bit of black iron _that was probably created by its being cool enough to "freeze" the area around it. That's a good attention to detail (it may just have been, visually, that gold against black looks better than gold against red-orange). And as the lettering comes up (as the ring gets hotter, clearly) the black under it breaks up.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:00 PM by Tom Whitmore

"Why did Bilbo age so much more ontop of his already hastened age from just a few months before?"

Because it was the power of the ring that was preserving him, just as it was preserving Gollum (who, after all, was a hobbit too). Bilbo started aging rapidly after giving up the ring, but it makes sense that it would acceelerate once the rig was destryed altogether.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:13 PM by rea

"The Rohirrim set off for Gondor with one horse apiece and no visible supply train."

To be fair, the Rohirrim seemed pretty clear on their likelihood of not coming back. They weren't planning on a long campaign - they were setting out to race to Minas Tirith and die on its doorstep.

I was more struck by how all the rough-hewn Rohirrim seemed to own spotless white tents.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:21 PM by FMguru

"Why did Bilbo age so much more ontop of his already hastened age from just a few months before?"

Actually, by the time we see Bilbo, it's at least four years after the Ring was destroyed, not just a few months. And when you are THAT elderly, even a bad illness or a fall can do a lot to you. Bilbo was already old for Hobbits BEFORE he gave up the Ring to Frodo, and I think by the time he actually goes into the West, he's about 130 years old. Ancient.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:29 PM by PiscusFiche

I was rather pleased to find that the dim sum in my refrigerator had an identical outward appearance of the elven waybread. I'm not certain what recipe the production crew was using for their lembas (it looked like heavy blanched-almond shortbread), but I'm pretty certain the stand-in for malorn leaves was lotus leaves.

I'm going to have to make some to bring to the Greyhaven new years party.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:31 PM by Kevin Andrew Murphy

Mary Kay, that's the point. What you're saying is that Tolkien is trying to do a particular thing. Your point is anchored in the nature of that thing, not in the endless and unprovable thicket of "intent."

In other words, I agreed with everything you said in the first place until you brought "intent" into the picture. We should assess operas as operas and baseball games as baseball games. Absolutely. But if you drag "intent" in, the next thing you know somebody is arguing that their crappy work deserves a more sympathetic hearing because they meant well.

(I also, needless to say, acknowledge that genres change and that often good works yield worthwhile readings even when latter-day audiences don't fully understand the genres that produced them. Good art can be mysterious that way.)

Posted December 18, 2003 4:37 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

"I was more struck by how all the rough-hewn Rohirrim seemed to own spotless white tents."

After the fall of Isengard, they had access to the mighty Laundries of Orthanc. (Run by men, not orcs, so the Ents didn't trash them.)

Posted December 18, 2003 4:38 PM by Stefan Jones

Actually, by the time we see Bilbo, it's at least four years after the Ring was destroyed, not just a few months.

Yeah, if you've read the books. The movies imply this whole thing took place in the scope of a year. I presume by that logic that Bilbo's catch-up aging was done by the time Frodo met him at Rivendell. Apparently not....

Posted December 18, 2003 4:42 PM by John Farrell

John, I have to disagree with you. I loved the mini-sequence when the ring hit the lava, because it struck me, not as an arbitrary tension-producing delay, but a nice piece of physical realism.

We know the ring has odd thermal properties, starting with its ability to sop up a lot of heat. We see this demonstrated when Gandalf tosses it into Frodo's fire, uses tongs to remove it, and then immediately puts it into Frodo's hand. At that point it's cool to the touch, and the amount of heat it's absorbed is barely enough to make the inscription appear.

Here's Isildur's description of it:

"It was hot when I first took it, hot as a glede, and my hand was scorched, so that I doubt if ever again I shall be free of the pain of it. Yet even as I write it is cooled, and it seemeth to shrink, though it loseth neither its beauty nor its shape. Already the writing upon it, which at first was as clear as red flame, fadeth and is now only barely to be read. ... I trace here a copy of it, lest it fade beyond recall. The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black, and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed; and maybe were the gold made hot again, the writing would be refreshed."

Presumably, a ring made of normal metal would have melted on Sauron's hand. That's why this one has to be dropped into Mount Doom: nothing less can melt it down.

Molten rock is viscous stuff, not liquid like water. The ring doesn't have a lot of mass. It's not unreasonable for it to alight on the surface instead of dropping straight in. For a while it sits there, doing its heat-absorbing thing. The inscription appears, and a thin crust of darker, cooler rock forms on top of the lava around it. This is true to everything we know about the ring's physical properties. It goes on absorbing heat until it finally reaches its melting point, at which point it flows down into the lava.

Very satisfying.

I like rocks.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:42 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Tom, molten rock is mostly silicon dioxide, i.e. glass.

But your larger point is still correct. It's still denser than human (or hobbit) flesh. Sme9agol would have burned to ash on the surface rather than sinking below.

Which reminds me of one of my little bugaboos: "Sme9agol" was pronounced in the films to more-or-less rhyme with "seagull". I was under the impression that the accent on the e conveyed that "Sme9" and "a" were separate syllables, and that the name should be said somewhat along the lines of "SMEH-ya-gol". (Compare to The9oden or c9owyn).

And one of the delights of the film: The opening sequence with Sme9agol and De9agol struggling over the ring resounded thrillingly for me of the struggle between Fafnir and Fasolt over a certain other ring.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:49 PM by Alan Bostick

The movies imply this whole thing took place in the scope of a year.

Frodo says, when he shows Sam the nearly-completed book, that it was four years ago that he was wounded at Weathertop.

I was listening for time stuff by the end, which is why I caught it.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:50 PM by Kate Nepveu

"Yeah, if you've read the books. The movies imply this whole thing took place in the scope of a year."

Frodo says (in the movie) that it's been four years since Weathertop and his wound pains him still. And since they announce that thirteen or fourteen months after Gandalf sent them on this quest, they returned to the Shire, at a minimum it's nearly three years by the time Bilbo crosses the screen again. I'd have to give it a little more time based on Frodo's writing.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:53 PM by PiscusFiche

Kate beat me to it. :)

Posted December 18, 2003 4:53 PM by PiscusFiche

The awful spirit of pedantry compells me to point out that Shelob isn't the Mother of All Spiders; Ungoilant, who helped Morgoth destroy the Two Tress of Valinor, is the Mother of All (Big, nasty, homophagous) Spiders.

As I was typing that descriptor, I knew someone would quibble with it. I did pause to wonder about spider evolution both on this earth and Middle Earth. But I usually don't pay a whole lot of attention to detail when it comes to those icky creatures that can make me shudder when they're only a few centimeters big. And seeing as how Shelob looks rather menacing by herself and even moreso on a big screen, the moniker "Mother of All Spiders" seemed extremely apropos. I beg you will forgive its historical and even scientific inaccuracy.

Since when are humans (or hobbits) more dense than molten rock, which is mostly iron?

Tom, problematic scientific points disturb me in science fiction movies and novels. In fantasy movies and novels, I'm quite willing to suspend disbelief for just about anything. If they had continually treated lava in a different fashion than we might expect without any explanation as to why, then I would be irked.

Why did Faramir wait a few minutes for the orcs to run by at Osgiliath

Picus, this bothered me too. I thought perhaps they were going to let the army pour out and then take their boats. Before they let the orcs go by I thought they were going to surprise them and then mow them down one by one since entryway space was limited. Waiting for about half of them to pass seemed really dumb - perhaps Denethor's madness extends to control of such tactics? That was the best explanation I could come up with. When I wasn't wondering if fleshy stumpy guy was Sloth from Goonies.

Posted December 18, 2003 4:54 PM by Kellie

Teresa,

Okay--but, I think the ring's dissolution would've worked better for me had the preceding struggle not already started dragging out too long. At that point I was feeling like "oh come on, already." But your points are well taken.

I stand corrected on the time-scope of the epilogue. I should've remembered that line about 4 years, too.

Posted December 18, 2003 5:07 PM by John Farrell

Also at the end, Sam has had enough time to marry and produce a 3yo child (played by Astin's actual daughter).

I have seen film of what happens to a stout pair of work boots dropped on flowing lava. You would think that SFX were involved, they go up in flames so very fast! (Though I wouldn't like to try it personally, dying by falling into lava is very likely nearly painless, as the nerves would be destroyed too quickly to actually transmit much pain.)

Posted December 18, 2003 5:22 PM by Connie H.

Tom & Alan:

How about this idea -- the patch of molten rock that Gollum hit happened to have a very high gas content and therefore a low density. Pumice, for example has a density of less than 1 g/cc. Rock ususaly has a density of about 2.5 g/cc. (Of course, one would then have to ignore that a pool of molten rock exposed to surface air pressure would have outgassed pretty thoroughly before that point. Details, always details . . .)

PiscusFiche & Kellie:

Why did Faramir wait a few minutes for the orcs to run by at Osgiliath

That's actually a fairly standard ambush tactic, useful for a small, well coordinated and motivated force facing a larger one. With enough troops you can suck a force in past you and cut off their retreat while encircling them -- a maneuver called a kill sack, for obvious reasons. It's also a way that a rear guard can surprise a large force by attacking it from the rear, delaying it while the main force escapes. As usual, it's a bit hard on the rear guard.

Posted December 18, 2003 5:33 PM by Claude Muncey

So, did anyone else see the head orc on the fields of Pelenor (the one with the speaking role) and think: Charles Laughton? Hunchback of Notre Dame?

And speaking of speaking roles: What, no Mouth of Sauron? The sequence at the Gates of Mordor /was/ pretty rushed.

Posted December 18, 2003 5:48 PM by rbs

fester: wrt the fragility of Minas Tirith: IIRC, Minas Tirith is a fortified city, not a part-natural bolt-hole like Helms Deep; there's a lot of difference between real fortresses (such as still can be found all over England) and Dubrovnik (a fortified city that quickly took serious damage when barbarians such as Karadjic and Milosevic had it shelled). Possibly Tolkien was thinking about it as a fortress on a scale that's never been seen on \this/ earth -- but if it takes the produce from 10 leagues around (as cited by Graydon) to feed it, I'm not convinced all of it would be able to withstand bombardment. Also, how long has it stood without serious attack? Fortifications that aren't attacked frequently tend at least not to be kept up (as noted by many writers, from Piper to McCaffrey), and can grow baroque ornamentation that will break up in fashion dear to the hearts of special-effects men (the same ones who believe that every crashed car explodes) at the first impact.

Posted December 18, 2003 5:57 PM by CHip

SPOILERS FOLLOW.

I saw it last night. I will like it much, much better the next time I see it. I won't be stressed by wondering which bit they're going to hack up in which way, what will be left behind, and what will be changed. It was beautiful. It was wonderful. I do, of course, have issues.

My biggest issue is with Arwen. She's converted from a warrior queen to a trophy bride, an incredibly distressing change. Up until the very last moment, I believed in my heart that the figure in the black cloak was Arwen, brining the Sword That Was Broken and the banner to Aragorn. When it turned out to be Elrond, and that Arwen had apparently contracted the wasting disease as if she were in a Victorian novel, I wanted to weep. From the moment I saw Arwen with a sword at Aragorn's throat, I knew that she would bring the sword herself.

What the hell with the Paths of the Dead, anyway? What is the nonsense that Aragorn talks about murders and so on? Why does there appear to be uncertainty about where the path leaves, when they leave camp? The confrontation with the dead king is cool, but I think that having the dead fall silently into ranks behind Aragorn as he rides through the Paths of the Dead would have been eerier, and more emotionally powerful.

Gollum's chicanery to make Sam look bad was just stupid, ok? It must have been done to make up for not telling the full Shelob story. I cannot for the life of me figure out why Jackson made that change. Upon reflection, I suppose that it wasn't a lack of cinematic presence, but rather that Jackson had locked himself into a view of the Ring as being completely corrupting. In Jackson's world, if Sam had worn the Ring, even as briefly as he did to save Frodo's life, then Sam would not have been able to give it back. Jackson was being too inflexible, if you ask me. (I know, I know, he didn't.)

The struggle at the cracks of Mount Doom was a bit long, but utterly canonical, but then Jackson had to add a bit. Why? Dragging Frodo up from the edge was distressing, but my disbelief came crashing round my ears when he was holding on with just one hand. The second struggle between Frodo and Gollum was so unnecessary. If Jackson wanted to show that Frodo was still under the power of the Ring, he could have had Frodo make a grab for Gollum as Gollum fell. The fight with an invisible Frodo and a visible Gollum was less than visually believable, to me. While Gollum certainly could and has jumped on someone's back, he never just held on like that in a fight. It looked nothing like his other fights, nothing like his normal fighting style.

The Fields of Pellenor made up for all of it, though. I wish the Rhorrim had sung, but it was grand and frightening and fine. I want to see it again. Soon.

Posted December 18, 2003 6:07 PM by Lydia Nickerson

Ungoilant

Typo for Ungoliant?

Ban Guri Ban

Ghân-buri-Ghân -- whom I shall miss even though I understand why he is not in the film.

No Mouth of Sauron? WAIL!

Posted December 18, 2003 6:17 PM by sennoma

Yeah, I was absolutely certain the hooded figure was going to turn out to be Arwen bearing the sword, not Elrond bearing the sword.

Posted December 18, 2003 6:18 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

I know that most think it nitpicking to say that the Scouring of the Shire should have somehow made it into the movie, but I feel that having it missing entirely is a disservice to a major theme of the books. You =can't= go home again and expect to be just as you left it. You can't go home after a major war and expect everything to be rosey and beautiful and warm and comfy and homey and just as you left it. And yet, in ROTK, that's exactly what happened. I felt heartsick at seeing the Shire picture-perfect as they had left it. Where was the bittersweetness at being home again, only to find it had also been touched by the war? Yeah, sure, they all felt as if they didn't really belong there anymore -- not as before, anyway. But is that the same as having to help rebuild the Shire? No, it isn't. When you return home from the trenches to Merry Olde, you find that the village church has lost its tower from bombings and most houses have pockmarks from air raids.

Posted December 18, 2003 6:20 PM by Nancy Hanger

She's converted from a warrior queen to a trophy bride

Damn. I agreed with Arwen getting a boost in the film version (she's hardly a warrior queen, or even much of a presence, in the books), and heartily approved substituting her for Glorfindel at the ford. What a shame to waste all that setup.

Posted December 18, 2003 6:25 PM by sennoma

I had already seen a trailer with Elrond giving Aragorn the sword (at least he unsheathes it right in front of Elrond, leaving us with the assumption that Elrond journeyed to give it to him rather than journeying to watch his future son-in-law play Erol Flynn). But I was still hoping it was wrong too.

Posted December 18, 2003 6:32 PM by Kellie

I've been surprised by how many people here are willing to casually sacrifice physical logic in fantasy narratives. I'm not saying that's bad or good; I'm saying it surprises me, because I'm not willing to do that. I'll buy elves living forever, and rings having the moral well-being of an entire world tied up in them, and walking and talking trees whose language sounds like Finnish as spoken by a contrabassoon, because those are all part of the unified setup of the story. But I want the rest of the it to be grounded in logic and reality. I'll put up with a few whopping great fibs, if everything else around them is reliably realistic.

Posted December 18, 2003 6:54 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

". . . grounded in logic and reality."

Ah . . . but whose logic? Whose reality? People had very odd ideas about physics, and about the ways our bodies functioned, way back when. Many of these seem utterly, obviously, ludicrous to us now.

Rationalist that I am, I think a fantasy can be *stronger* for accepting odd, old ways of thinking. If fact, I'm *less* willing to suspend my disbelief if magic is shoehorned into physics, rather than presented as . . . magic.

Perhaps the Ring floated on that lava because it was trying to preserve itself . . .

Posted December 18, 2003 7:07 PM by Stefan Jones

Further:

About ten years back, NBC aired a bunch of Silly Season low-budget documentaries presenting logical and plausible explanations of biblical miracles. CAD models of the palace Sampson pulled down, tides that could part the Red Sea, and so on.

It ended with a solemn Bible expert stating that if people knew that these miracles were possible, they'd take the Bible more seriously.

I'm not a believer, but I can see a big flaw here. If all those miracles have rational, real-world explanations, then the moral impact of the stories is seriously lessened. Faithful men Shadrach, Meshach, and Ibednego survive their stay in that furnace because . . . they found a cool spot? Lesson: Their faith didn't mean anything. God: Not involved, not necessary.

Posted December 18, 2003 7:17 PM by Stefan Jones

I guess my complaint comes down to pacing and editing at certain parts of the film rather than logic and realism.

As for Charles Laughton/Hunchback/Orc, I get the feeling he was put in to make up for the absence of an active personalized villain (Christopher Lee), at least for some of the movie. But in a way I felt he detracted from the Witch King's presence.

I would've loved to have seen more of the Lord of the Nazgul.

Nancy, I think you raise a good point, but in defence of Jackson, I think he grabbed a very nice moment when the 4 hobbits sit down with their beers at the Green Dragon and—for just the right pause—don't know what to say. For me that was a nice apprehension that indeed, things aren't the same.....

Posted December 18, 2003 8:03 PM by John Farrell

I agree with Lydia Nickerson on Arwen. I liked the way she was recreated for FOTR, but all of that vanished in TTT and ROTK. Also, I rather liked the scene in the book of ROTK between Frodo and Arwen when Arwen gives Frodo "her spot" on the boat to the Grey Havens. It was about the only place in the book where Arwen had more than a line of dialogue.

Posted December 18, 2003 8:33 PM by Laurie Mann

I'll wager we're going to see the Mouth of Sauron in the extended version. The role was cast and (according to Ian McKellen's White Book, anyway) filmed.

Posted December 18, 2003 8:38 PM by Dan Layman-Kennedy

CHip, I have to disagree with you on your example of Dubrovnik as a fortied city that quickly collapsed in the early 90s and Minas Tirith because Dubrovnik was reduced using heavy modern artillery using chemical energy explosive warheads instead of pure kinetic energy. Additionally Minas Tirith had not been attacked, so I agree with you it would have been consistent with history for plenty of ornamentation that is easy to fall off but there had been a long standing threat to the city that the elites of Gondor knew about as they were only several days away from their most dangerous enemy's lair and they had lost the outer works of Osiligoth.

To me I lost a little bit of the willingness to stay engorged in the Middle Earth reality when I saw the walls crumble on the first shot.

Posted December 18, 2003 8:46 PM by fester

As for Charles Laughton/Hunchback/Orc, I get the feeling he was put in to make up for the absence of an active personalized villain (Christopher Lee), at least for some of the movie. But in a way I felt he detracted from the Witch King's presence.

There is, in fact, a named Orc in the book-- at least, I'm guessing that "Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul" is an Orc. Granted, he gets all of half a sentence in the text, but I'm happy to pretend that he's the Hunchback of Barad-Dur.

Nancy, I think you raise a good point, but in defence of Jackson, I think he grabbed a very nice moment when the 4 hobbits sit down with their beers at the Green Dragon and?for just the right pause?don't know what to say. For me that was a nice apprehension that indeed, things aren't the same.....

I agree. I liked that scene. It was fairly subtle, but effective.

Kate also noted that Sam's clothes are noticeably nicer when they return, which is good. I'm a little disappointed that the Mayor of Hobbiton doesn't get a nicer hole, but you can't win 'em all...

Another subtle bit that I liked was the fact that Theoden's comment when Eowyn comes up to him after killing the Witch King ("I know your face...") is the same as his first line after Gandalf's exorcism in The Two Towers.

Posted December 18, 2003 8:56 PM by Chad Orzel

Fester -

The textual walls are the same stuff as Orthanc, Saruman's tower that the ents cannot hurt, stonework done "before the power and craft of Numenor waned in exile", things that are more or less indestructible by anything short of truly major earthquakes. (These are walls which have been standing for not less than a thousand years, and argueably for three thousand, at the time of the story.)

And we're told that the Witch-King makes for the gate, because, tough as it is, it is the weakest point in all that high and indomitable wall.

If it's shown crumbling from single impacts, one has to assume nasty malign sorcery is involved.

Posted December 18, 2003 9:03 PM by Graydon

"That's actually a fairly standard ambush tactic, useful for a small, well coordinated and motivated force facing a larger one. With enough troops you can suck a force in past you and cut off their retreat while encircling them -- a maneuver called a kill sack, for obvious reasons. It's also a way that a rear guard can surprise a large force by attacking it from the rear, delaying it while the main force escapes. As usual, it's a bit hard on the rear guard."

Claude: No, I understand that--but what they did at Osgiliath wasn't using that particular tactic--or at least that wasn't my interpretation. To me it seemed like they were going to wait for all the orcs to pass, so they could perform that tactic, perhaps taking out the orc force's boats, or creating cover by torching them. But instead, they merely waited a few minutes and then ran into the middle of the orc squad, without waiting for them to get off the boats completely. This had the effect of putting them smack in the MIDDLE of the attacking force INSTEAD of being at the rear or the front. Nowhere to retreat to. That's what I objected to. (Don't know if that made any sense though....*wry grin*)

RE: Realism - Isn't there some kind of saying that when you're writing fantastic fiction that you have one major "gimme", ie. one place where you can stretch things a bit. Yet to keep the audience in an appropriate suspension of disbelief, you need to balance that out with as much realism in other areas as possible. Or at least focus on the details that count instead of throwing cool-but-implausible frippery around.

Posted December 18, 2003 9:19 PM by PiscusFiche

I find that I must ask -- is the banner present or absent?

Posted December 18, 2003 9:35 PM by Graydon

"If it's shown crumbling from single impacts, one has to assume nasty malign sorcery is involved."

My memory may be slightly off (there were some rather undisciplined and talkative 8-10 year olds sitting behind me) but I don't think the catapults break the walls of Minas Tirith, although they do mash up some towers and buildings inside those walls pretty well (which seemed a little too easy, imo).

The only things which bothered me in this installment were the continuing silliness with Gimli and the stange elasticity of the oliphaunts-- their size seemed to change between the time they were stomping on an entire horse and rider and when Legolas was climbing aboard one.

But I must say, even though I am someone who gave the books too cursory a reading too long ago these movies have summoned wonderfully unmanipulated tears at numerous times. I can't wait for Sunday's scheduled second viewing.

Posted December 18, 2003 11:34 PM by Fritz

Patrick: How about this: we shouldn't carp that it didn't include things its author didn't intend it should include? (Although I have certainly been guilty of that myself.) Otherwise while I can definitely see (and agree with) your point it seems tangential to my point. Or at least it does to me, but my brain is weird and I can't always explain what goes on in it.

MKK

Posted December 18, 2003 11:56 PM by Mary Kay

I've been surprised by how many people here are willing to casually sacrifice physical logic in fantasy narratives. I'm not saying that's bad or good; I'm saying it surprises me, because I'm not willing to do that. I'll buy elves living forever, and rings having the moral well-being of an entire world tied up in them, and walking and talking trees whose language sounds like Finnish as spoken by a contrabassoon, because those are all part of the unified setup of the story. But I want the rest of the it to be grounded in logic and reality. I'll put up with a few whopping great fibs, if everything else around them is reliably realistic.

I feel the same way, Teresa. One of the most important things in fantasy is believablity, and if you've already asked the reader to swallow six impossible things before breakfast, they're not going to stomach fruit appearing in the wrong season or mutton in a world without sheep.

How far did Rohan have to cart all their timber for their ornamental beams? How did an unconscious Faramir avoid getting road rash on his face when being drug by a horse? Heck, even if he stayed on his back the whole time, how did his face stay Charlie's Angels clean? Wouldn't his dad have had some problem with his eyes if that had really been alcohol or mineral spirits in the ewer he dumped over his head, instead of the non-flamable water it acted like? And since the Witch King's dragon did actually spurt blood or ichor when it was beheaded, why didn't it spurt more, give the sheer volume of the thing, even if it was CGI? For that matter, even though the oliphants could indeed squash a man flat with their feet, wouldn't stepping on one of those pointy helms of the Minas Tirith forces hurt? It'd be like stepping on jacks with bare feet.

Gratuitous nitpicking, of course, in a movie that was nevertheless really cool.

My explanation for Golum's flesh not crisping on contact with the lava is that he was being magically preserved all these years by the magic of the ring anyway, so it gave him an extra moment of non-crispyness before being swallowed up by the lava. That, and the crisping flesh effect would have looked too gross.

Posted December 19, 2003 1:24 AM by Kevin Andrew Murphy

What happened to the Arwen who raced to the ford? Heck, what happened to the Arwen who's supposed to be Luthien come again? Luthien was one tough cookie.

I echo that latter question, except that I address it at the text of the novel. On my recent re-read of the novel--2001, preparatory to seeing the first film, first time I'd read the book in over twenty years--I was amazed at how small Arwen's role was and how shallow. There's more of her in the Appendix than in the entire text of the novel. "Trophy bride" is almost too kind to her role in the novel; she's a reward of the kingship, like the sword Narsil but with less personality or the banner but with less power.

I think that Jackson got vastly more right than wrong, and when he got things wrong, I can generally at least understand why he ended up in the wrong places. I'd have a lot more complaints with the films if Tolkien had written a book I had fewer complaints with.

Posted December 19, 2003 1:27 AM by Kevin J. Maroney

PiscusFiche: But instead, they merely waited a few minutes and then ran into the middle of the orc squad, without waiting for them to get off the boats completely. This had the effect of putting them smack in the MIDDLE of the attacking force INSTEAD of being at the rear or the front. Nowhere to retreat to. That's what I objected to.

I think you are right (and yes, you do make sense) and I think I'm going to be bothered by this when I see it, darn you.

Posted December 19, 2003 1:35 AM by Claude Muncey

Regarding Arwen, there was a rumour going round a couple of years back that Liv Tyler had some sort of mental collapse during one of her more difficult scenes (involving riding, I think); a collapse due to being closed up in a very intense and closed miniature society revolving around a world she didn't quite grok. Some of the other actors described the shooting of the film as a magic experience, and have told us of how they identified completely with their characters and felt that they *were* in Middle-earth, so to speak. Well, except Liv Tyler allegedly couldn't understand the mindset and couldn't take it after a certain point. After this supposed collapse, Jackson couldn't use her half as much as he had intended to, she plain refused, and had to cut down Arwen's role considerably as a consequence.

I don't know if this story has been confirmed (or disproven) or if it is still just a rumour.

Posted December 19, 2003 7:21 AM by Johan A

(Neverminding the movie, which I haven't seen yet and likely won't until the extended DVD comes out, and so of course I can't read large swaths of many blogs for a while...)

"Toroids" hmm? Very cute.

Posted December 19, 2003 8:37 AM by Laurel Amberdine

For whatever reason, Jackson made a much larger deal of Arwen giving Frodo her place in the boat; "giving away her life's grace" than the text. The trivial explanation of the pre-ride-to-the-ford, post-ride-to-the-ford differences in Arwen are that she quite literally gave away her ability to be an elf, and was as such stuck in a sort of limbo until either she got dragged off to Valinor or was provided with an opportunity to die.

The version of that which trends less toward wanting to hit Peter Jackson with the biggest frozen mackerel I can find is that she's powering some substantial fraction of Aragorn's luck, and that this is very, very tiring.

Posted December 19, 2003 8:43 AM by Graydon

Kevin, at first thought I'd thought that was water Denethor poured over himself, but at a second glance it seemed a bit more viscous. Now, most of the oils available in this society would not have been as clear as water (most, not all, vegetable oils have some color -- it's something I get to pay attention to as a massage therapist); but the viscosity looks more like that of sunflower oil, which is relatively clear. They probably wouldn't have had the fractional distillation techniques that result in a mineral oil as clear as what was used. Definitely a light oil, but it looks heavier than a decane.

I move back from oil pedant mode.

Cheers,
Tom

Posted December 19, 2003 8:46 AM by Tom Whitmore

Graydon, I noticed no one has answered your question yet. Yes, the banner was there, but not explicitly mentioned. The moment when Aragorn noticed it (and the moments immediately following) were some of more ridiculous in the movie for me.

I've decided that one of Jackson's biggest flaws as a director is his refusal to allow any (OK, most) of his characters to keep their dignity.

Posted December 19, 2003 9:40 AM by Janice Dawley