Bah. I'm having one of those bad-memory moments when you lose your citations, your locations, and all your searchable character strings. Episode, Greek historian, bunch of Greek warriors stranded in Asia Minor, have to fight their way to the coast. At this point I'm so frustrated over being unable to remember it that the memories are afraid to come home.

Xenophon?

The Anabasis (march upcountry) of Xenophon.
mark

This is only tangentially related to the "Squick and squee" thread, so I didn't post it there, but I was amused to see this in The Onion's astrology column this week (no link since I can't get MT to render it properly, for some reason):

Leo: (July 23—Aug. 22)

You thought you'd seen the worst humanity had to offer, but that was before you read fan-fiction set in an alternate universe where Hawkeye Pierce and Father Mulcahy are lovers.

I see I've been beated to the answer, but here's a useful link:
Wikipedia entry for Anabasis

And here's a lovely table comparing the 1979 cult film "The Warriors" to Xenophon's Anabasis:

Warriors/Anabasis comparison

Ahhhhhhhh. Thank you. That's like finally scratching a persistent itch.

Alex, how did you figure out why I wanted it?

A link right up yer alley: Crocheting the Lorenz Manifold.

http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/anm/preprints/2004r03.pdf

Best,

Joel

Is Xenophon the European spelling of Xenophone: a device for hearing what foreigners are saying?

Also, what influence did "The Warriors" have on "Gangs of New York?"

Additionally, how valid is the ratio:

"The Warriors" is to Xenophon's "Anabasis"
as "West Side Story" is to Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet?"

Or as "Throne of Blood" is to Macbeth?

Finally, as many of you already know, excerpting from:

The Ultimate Science Fiction Web Guide: Authors "S"

William Shakespeare (1564-1616): greatest English poet/playwright
"The Tempest" (1611, revised in First Folio 1623) is
a superbly wrought, graceful play, with some of the Bard's best lines.
It was also so science-fictional as to have been rewritten into the modern
film "Forbidden Planet" {hotlink to be done}. Here's the key:
* Prospero, Duke of Milan, Magician = Dr. Morbius (Mad Scientist)
* He studies magic = He studies the alien technology
* Magic Island = Altair-4 (Alien Planet)
* Shipwreck = Forced landing of Spaceship
* Beautiful daughter Miranda = Beautiful daughter Altaira
* Brutish servant Caliban = Robbie the Robot
* Ariel, Spirit of the Air = invisible "Monster of the Id"

Joel, I love it. I'm trying to figure out whether it could be used for something clever.

Alex, how did you figure out why I wanted it?

Is that why you wanted it? I just posted it because when I saw that table, I gasped out loud. I've seen the movie but had never even considered that it had classical roots. But come on, the name of the gang leader is Cyrus!

As I writer, I really, really struggle with plot. I can write paragraphs and scenes fine, and I can worldbuild all day long, but I sit and stare at my screen and my characters sit and stare at each other. I know the advice is to steal plots, but for some reason that just doesn't seem to work for me. Maybe I abstract plot at the wrong level? Maybe I'm stealing from the wrong people?

There are plenty of super-excellent writers and editors who hang out here: can I hijack a tiny portion of this open thread and ask for advice?

My best beloved was watching Throne of Blood on tv (Samurai Saturday!) recently. Now that's a creepy movie.

If I remember Renault's Fire from Heaven, Aristotle had Alexander reading Xenophon, which apparently made him into a fan of Persian culture (Persiaphile?).

Ah, I've been saving these for an open thread.

Authors on the adaptation of their work:

Ursula K. LeGuin comments on the Earthsea television drama.

Philip Pullman on the brouhaha surrounding the upcoming Dark Materials films

Alex:
I'm just a struggling newbie at writing, but I found out not too long ago that when I get stuck, it helps me to return to the characters.
One time I had my characters write blog posts, really whiney, angsty ones, to find out what happened next.

Ahhhh. An open thread. I need to augh.

I had an argument with an acquaintance the other day about "You have to have published short stories to get published." Which she had learned from Sources In The Publishing Industry, and was trying to foist off on me.

Augh! Augh! And other frustration noises!

*goes back to working on the novel*

Did anyone actually watch the Earthsea adaptation? I more or less ignored it because it was so thoroughly pre-panned.

Just for fun, I watched the original adaptation of Le Guin's The Lathe of Heaven back to back with the more recent one. What a contrast - they spent all of $5 making the PBS version from 1979, and it so totally outclasses the much more produced contemporary version. The new version is so unfaithful to the storyline that it's almost unrecognizable, whereas the only major defect in the PBS version is that people stopped being gray.

So, it can be done. A good Le Guin adaptation is possible, just not, apparently, by contemporary TV producers.

For what it's worth, Sol Yurick's novel "The Warriors" has very little to do with Walter Hill's movie, beyond the idea of "NYC gang gets stuck deep in hostile territory and has to make its way home." It's a character story rather than an Urban Action Movie. (The gang in the book isn't even named "The Warriors;" they're the Coney Island Dominators. They start out in the Bronx, which will be significant to students of NYC geography.) Yurick did use the Anabasis as a source, but not in a scene-by-scene fashion.

Comparing either the book or film to "Gangs of New York" makes about as much sense as comparing it to the "Our Gang" comedies, or "Till all the seas gang dry," for that matter.

The last of the inappropriate holiday cards is sickeningly, poignantly inappropriate this week: 35 people got laid off or put on a job expiration timer Tuesday. Lost my manager, two immediate co-workers, lots of familiar faces.

A good chunk of the day has been spent saying stuff like "Gee, the guy in the next cube would know where those are . . . wait, he's not here!" and "Sorry, only ____ knew how to do that."

I should have taken that position as bag changer on a prairie-dog vacuum when I had a chance.

If I remember Renault's Fire from Heaven, Aristotle had Alexander reading Xenophon, which apparently made him into a fan of Persian culture (Persiaphile?).

Medeophile. :-)

Alex,

I'm still struggling, but I learned a lot about plot by taking the advice of one of my favorite writers, Suzanne Brockmann. She said she learned plot and pacing by writing TV scripts (not paid or anything). She said to pick shows you already know and love and then practice the patterns of the show--end on a cliffhanger at commercial breaks, etc. It really helped me because I could tell when I had enough story...or not. For me, a forty five page screenplay is a lot easier to do as an exericse than a 450 page novel. I also really like the Evil Overlord Generates A Plot, by our hostess.

Trivial tangent to The Warriors

Is it just me, or does Chris Rock show up as an extra in a pan across the crowd at the big gang meeting? It's right before the leader gets shot. I know he would've been 14 or so, but I'll be damned if it doesn't look just like him.

This is not nearly as cool as crocheting chaos, but here's a knitting blog that is currently featuring some anatomically correct (or incorrect as the case may be) knitted items. (May be NSFW if your work environment is particulary prudish. Nothing but yarn to be seen here, though.)

I woudn't want the, er, member warming garment to be made of an itchy wool, though.

I'm sorry, Stefan, that sucks. They did a massive bloodletting at my last job and everyone was shellshocked for a long time afterwards.

Joel, I will never have the patience to do that but you've given me an idea for a collar.

John M. Ford:

So, you have an emotional reaction to "Gangs of New York?" I'd love to know more.

Joel Davis:

Thank you for posting that yarnaceous link. In a rare example of keeping my Mathematical Demon under control, I wanted to post it much earlier, but waited to see if someone normal would do so.

Stefan Jones:

Thank you for sharing that. Painful as it is, and personal, I suspect that Emperor Bush II has guaranteed that we'll be seeing a lot more of it.

I found myself oddly sympathizing with Ronald Reagan, who was traumatized by seeing his father's unemployment during The Great Depression, and thereafter, even as President, being unable to fire anyone, however necessary.

My years of mostly full employment (1973-1991), which overlapped my years of college and grad school, gave way to a roller coaster of wealthy months interspersed with scrape-the-last-peanut-butter-from the jar.

Again and again I saw bloodlettings in the small, medium, and gigantic companies where I worked. It's a fad taught in MBA programs that these help the bottom line. Actual data does not support this theory.

Inevitably, they fired the people who actually knew how to do stuff, kept the ones who knew nothing, and promoted the ones who did actual daily damage, sometimes (as on the Space Shuttle program where I worked in Safety) deadly damage. Who played golf with/went to church with/went boozing with/smoked dope with/went swingdancing with/ slept with the boss was highly correlated with retention and promotion.

Who spoke the truth/ helped the customer/ rationally allocated resources was highly correlated with non-raises and termination.

I'm a Capitalist, but not a Worshipper-of-the-so-called-free-market. Today's workplaces make me weep.

Schools are businesses too, with the instructive question "who are the customers?" The same pattern that I cite for corporations applies to schools. Yesterday I collected my last meagre paycheck of the year. I will not know until at least 3 January 2005 if I have any position at my university or not (I mentioned why on an earlier thread). Several kindly Making Light people recommended that I apply for High School teaching jobs. I've been doing so for several years.

I may have already gone on too long. Thank you again.

If I remember Renault's Fire from Heaven, Aristotle had Alexander reading Xenophon, which apparently made him into a fan of Persian culture (Persiaphile?).

Medeophile. :-)

:-)

That's it. I'm going home now.

JVP, I wouldn't ordinarily disagree with you, since you're often over my head, but as to Reagan and firing people, one acronym: PATCO.

In this case, the layoffs were the result of an acquisition, not a bad economy. Gotta get rid of redundant people, you know. :-/

But sheeat, the current method of conducting layoffs is massively insulting and bad. "Thank you for your service. Here's an envelope with a check. Here's a box."

If my manager had been offered, say, an extra two weeks severance in exchange for staying on a week to turn over responsibilities and knowledge, he would have done it and things would be going a lot easier.

Another Xenophon factoid: The cave dwellers the ten thousand winter with in south eastern Anatolia are the Kurds.

I watched the Earthsea miniseries, but I have nothing to add to all
the bad reviews. Oh, except that too many of the reviews focus on how
different it is from LeGuin's books. It's important to remember that
even if you don't care about that, the show was still bad.

Since that's not worth further discussion, and I haven't seen _The
Warriors_ or read Greek poetry, I will say a few words about -- about
-- hm. Cold out, isn't it? I hate cars. This version of "Bohemian
Rhapsody" has accordions but no singing. Fipple! Tweak! I really
should work on my electroluminescent top hat this weekend.

Stefan Jones wrote:
If my manager had been offered, say, an extra two weeks severance in exchange for staying on a week to turn over responsibilities and knowledge, he would have done it and things would be going a lot easier.

I believe the misguided corporate thinking is, if you lay someone off and then let them hang around the office a minute longer than necessary, there's no telling what kind of retributive rabble-rousing / file-deleting / paperclip-stealing / coffee-mooching they might get up to. Best to get it done with quick, walk them supervised out the door, and change all the locks and passwords.

I'm not saying it's logical, efficient, or humane. I'm personally of your opinion: the best way to protect company resources is to maintain an atmosphere of respect so revenge doesn't occur to anybody. I'm just expressing my belief, having been laid off before, that this is how human resources people think.

I just got word that the mailroom temp job I've been working at for the past 90 days (after three years of job retraining and unemployment--Huzzah! for Parker Services) will go away after the 30th. The higher-ups have decided that instead of using a temp to help do a 2 7/8ths person job they'll cut back to two full-time people. This is a road to resignation, retirement, or transfer, and management should know better. Oh well, at least I got three weeks extended into three months and renewed my mailroom skills... The unemployment figures in the Seattle area are still horrifying--one more reason that this state went Blue.

I'm reminded of how I liked the episode of Duckman where he's at a high school, getting beaten up by various gangs. "Our Gang" beats him up in black and white, and the gang from "West Side Story" beats him up in choreography. Nice music, too.

Alex, re plotting, I can't do it either. The good thing is, you have a problem and you've identified it. That's way ahead of lots of people. Now you have to work around it.

Some advice, since you asked for it.

First: Don't be afraid to do things just as an experiment. Everything you do doesn't need to be publishable. Trying stuff to see if it works is a good thing. Knowing you're only practicing can be quite freeing.

Second: What plot is for, is to keep everything from happening at the same time. Plot is character, plot is pacing. Work on those things. Meanwhile, steal plots while you're practicing.

Third: Learn how to steal plots. You don't steal a plot by taking a plot and copying it. You have something, like some characters, and you want something to happen. When you steal a plot, it will come out different anyway because your characters are different. But what you want to do is have a plot that works for them. So to start, when you're practicing, steal a plot that's ludicrous for them and see where it goes. Say you had the characters from Northanger Abbey. Put them into the plot from Sophocles Electra. The first thing you notice is that you can't start there -- I mean you can't start where Electra starts. The second thing is that Catherine's brother, who is really insignificant in NA, needs to become Orestes, so you have to think about him a lot. Then you realize that Catherine's boyfriend will have to be Pylades, and you think about the relationship between O and P, and then between Henry and his father and you realize that that's where that story could become Electra, with the General as Agamemnon. By the time you've finished poking at this, what you'll have won't be recognisable as anything, but it'll have a plot. Consider minor characters in the plot you're trying to steal. I stole Framley Parsonage for Tooth and Claw, but of my major characters in T&C, one of them gets about two lines in the original and two of the others have an implied off-page existence, one doesn't even have that. The scene I start with happens off the page of FP. T&C can best be seen, plotwise, as a variation on a theme of FP, and I think it's best where it gets most away from the original. But the point is, by writing anything with your characters, it goes away from what it was and develops baroque sprouts, and this is a good thing.

Fourth: Steal plots from silly things that have fuzzy holes in them. I wrote something once based on the plot of "Hotel California". I wrote three things of 10 kwords each (and no, you can't see them) based on the plot of "Famous Blue Raincoat", from the POVs of the three main characters. Forget about plot and do the other things, but if your characters take the plot away from where it's "supposed" to go, measure that against where it's going to end up and make it all balance. Songs are perfect. So are fairy tales and myths, because often the way we have them we have raw plot without motivation. There's the line from Galaxy Quest, "What is the rock's motivation in this scene?" I got a whole short story out of "What is the mirror's motivation in telling the queen she isn't the fairest of them all?"

Fifth: if you have characters and you have things happening, you can do what I call plot simulation, where it becomes indistinguishable from plot to the reader. So instead of stealing a plot, get some events, some big complex hairy events, and set them in order, and push your characters into them. Say a coronation and an abduction and a legacy and... also, either steal two plots or set up two lots of events, and set them going against each other. Work out the timing of everything, and when you get stuck with one set, consider how the other set will be interacting and where that will be. "Shouldn't we be getting to the execution about now" can be a godsend when plot-stuck. Take your characters out of their situation and pitchfork them into other things -- know you're going to put in a spaceship chase sequence about two-thirds of the way through, and figure out why later.

This might not work. None of it might work. But that doesn't matter, you're only practicing, just like me.

Teresa, here's another picture for your WW1 memorial collection: the Magdeburger Ehrenmal by Max Barlach in Magdeburg Cathedral. It was a gathering point for some of the demonstrations that helped spark reuinification.

Steve: I believe the misguided corporate thinking is, if you lay someone off and then let them hang around the office a minute longer than necessary, there's no telling what kind of retributive rabble-rousing / file-deleting / paperclip-stealing / coffee-mooching they might get up to

Yeah, it is an extension of the way IT layoffs or firings have been handled for some time. The classic form of the dotcom layoff is that everybody is invited to one of two meetings. At one, probably larger meeting, those whom the shadow has passed over this time learn of your imminent demise. Then everyone goes to lunch. Those of you at the other meeting are informed by someone from HR that your services are no longer required, and manila envelopes are passed out with your check, COBRA and other HR forms, a short and insincere letter from either the CEO or your boss, and any transitional benefits they choose to extend. All your system access was canceled as you entered the meeting. A rent-a-cop (often retained just for this event) escorts you to your desk, watches you pack, checks off the inventory of what you are taking, and escorts you to the door, hopefully before everyone else returns from a well lubricated lunch. No goodbyes or farewells on company time. You can barely hear the whisper of the axe . . .

I got to miss being the object of this particular exercise myself, but I have frends whose stories are strangely similar -- there must be a book about how to do this. I was once laid off twice in 18 months. The first time was quick -- it was handled well by my immediate supervisor and his boss, We were given the rest of the day to pack up without a lot of supervision, and we had interviews with other firms set up by our boss. After a couple of contract jobs, I became the sysop for another firm. When their parent company decided to close that division, I was offered a substantial bonus to stay on a full 90 days to shut things down. (As people left, I ended up becoming the de facto overall facilities manager.) My last day there, I was called by the first company and asked to return. Overall, a strange experience.

In addition to the Anabasis, Aristotle might well have aimed Alexander at Xenophon's other book about the Persians, Cyropaedia, which is mostly* about the education of Cyrus the Younger, who hired Xenophon and rest of the Ten Thousand to help him overthrow his brother. For a look into that tome, try the essential classical studies site:

www.perseus.tufts.edu and look under the Classics link--they have online text of both the Greek and an English translation.

*I say mostly, because Xenophon was almost as distractable as Herodotus when it came to interesting details.

Jo Walton wrote:
Fourth: Steal plots from silly things that have fuzzy holes in them.

Now that's cool advice.

Hey everyone. I have a question about a possible publishing scam. My cousin writes poetry, some of which is published in Canada (although I don't know where). She has been contacted by Noble House, who want to publish one of her poems in a volume of poetry to be published worldwide. They aren't asking for any money, nor are they offering any. But if she wants a copy of the book when it's published, she will have to pay $45.

Is this a scam? I know money is always supposed to flow towards the author so I'm worried, but it doesn't sound as bad as the definite scams. She isn't required to pay anything to have the poem published. Just if she wants a personal copy.

Alex, I am an Unpublished Writer, so take my advice with salt to taste.

Nonetheless, I pass on to you the most useful stuff I know about plotting, courtesy of my playwrighting teacher Frank Gagliano (which I was able to follow about half the time while writing for his classes, so there you go).

The smallest unit of plot is the event. An event occurs when pressure builds up to the extent that someone has to do something to alleviate it. "Put your characters in the pressure cooker," sayeth Frank; the forces exerting pressure can be internal or external, but the stronger they are, the more momentum the event will have.

The event's resolution will hopefully create a new pressure. The Ring must leave the Shire, but now the hobbits are alone in the wild; Cordelia chooses integrity over duty, and Lear exiles her. The new pressure builds until it creates a new event, and so on.

This is part of what's behind the "two guys with guns" trick - introduce an immediate high-pressure situation that must be resolved, and then make everyone deal with the consequences.

When one event follows another in this way, the plot is something that is allowed to happen more or less organically, as the resolutions present themselves until there's a Story. And this allows the narrative to unfold from the inside - what happens is the result of the decisions people make, rather than an artificial structure imposed by the author from above.

When in doubt, increase pressure; pressure makes plot happen.

Elese, see here:
http://www.writers.net/forum/read/6/3887/3887Vf

They would appear to be scammers.

Elese wrote:
She has been contacted by Noble House, who want to publish one of her poems in a volume of poetry to be published worldwide. They aren't asking for any money, nor are they offering any. But if she wants a copy of the book when it's published, she will have to pay $45.

It doesn't appear to be terribly legitimate, judging by the scorn unearthed in a google search. Sounds like it'd be prudent to steer clear of that outfit.

Getting the Scoop on Poetry Contest Scams

The Worst Poetry Contests

Keep googling for "noble house", plus various other terms such as 'scam', 'beware', or 'problems'.... a lot of people have had unpleasant experiences with them.

bugger bugger bugger. Now my moral dilemma is: do I tell her? I really don't want her scammed, but I know that the truth would break her heart.

I used to be an astronomer. We'd get calls at the observatory about naming stars after people. And I would patiently explain that the company offering to name a star after their girlfriend/boyfriend/deceased loved-one for $50 were scammers. They'd send the victim a certificate and a catalogue listing their star with its position and name. And then I get the call from the lady who has bought a star for her baby who died one week old. She wanted me to send her a star chart and tell her about the star. Which I did. I couldn't tell her the truth.

I don't like hatred, but on that day I came very close when thinking about that company.

Elese, you have more control over your emotions than I can even aspire to. I'm no professional, just one of the oddballs with the 'scope in the park on public night, and I thought I'd heard it all about those vile thieves. Your story is even worse. How dare they make others choose between lying for their benefit, or wounding the afflicted, troubling the joyful, and embarrassing the innocent. I know it's the actions I should despise, and not the actor, but when they treat people like that it's hard to control the spillover.

Elese wrote:
bugger bugger bugger. Now my moral dilemma is: do I tell her? I really don't want her scammed, but I know that the truth would break her heart.

The fact that you asked the question yourself suggest that, somewhere in your spine, you probably already know what you intend to do.

FWIW, you don't have to be blunt with it: "These guys are scammers who only care about your cash" isn't the only way to say it. You could phrase it more positively: "I looked up those Noble House guys on the Web, and it sounds like they don't really do a lot of publicity. They mostly just sell the books to the people whose poems are in them, so you might not get a lot of readers. I wonder if you could do better? Maybe try selling your poems to some magazines?"

Of course if she does try to place her poetry in legitimate markets, she's in for a world of rejection, frustration and vanishing reward. This is true even if her poems are brilliant enough to find an audience. It's more true if they aren't. If she simply wants a quick self-esteem shot, and forty-five bucks won't mean missing any meals, don't tell her she sucks if she chooses to go with the Noble House people. If she wants long-term self-esteem, though, she ought to know that there are in fact people who publish poems and get money for them, or at least copies of the journals. Never a lot of money, and it's an uphill climb all the way, but it's been known to happen.

The WashPost finally published my slightly-edited letter to the editor about Howl's Moving Castle in the Free For All section today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9255-2004Dec17.html

bottom of the page.

This is the second time I've been published in the FFA section, the first time was when a headline writer wrote about tanks fainting.

This version of "Bohemian
Rhapsody" has accordions but no singing.

At last, a problem I can fix (mp3 link).

(Note: I'm cross-posting this announcement from Electrolite.)

Jonathan Vos Post, I'm suspending your Electrolite and Making Light posting privileges for the next two weeks, which means you're out of here until New Year's Day.

You are not mindful of the company in which you find yourself.

You've posted far too many messages that had little or nothing to do with the discussions in which they occurred.

You've been a burden on the conversation.

Furthermore, you've failed to take cognizance of the longest-running and most heavy-handed series of hints and suggestions I've ever given anyone in all my years as a moderator.

See you in 2005.

Teresa Nielsen Hayden
Moderator, Enforcer, and
Wielder of Arbitrary Power

Joel, I was in the library today, and I was rolling yarn while my dad tutored my daughter in math, and a nice man came over to show my how to roll a pullskein. It turned out he was a mathematician who knits getting the kids out of the house.

I made him incredibly happy by showing him that pdf.

He wanted to know if anyone has worked out a pattern for a Klein bottle yet. I told him I'd ask.

TNH: Aw, gee...I feel like you've been a little rough on JVP. Digressive as he sometimes is, I feel like his posts are usually at least tangential to the subject matter. OK, awhile ago he was posting a lot of math stuff that was kind of excessive, but that seems to have stopped. Anyway, I for one am fine with what he posts.

And hey, isn't this supposed to be an open thread?

But that's just my opinion. I wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of a Wielder of Arbitrary Power...

dollop: I don't think Chris Rock is in The Warriors. But the woman on the bench in the park, who turns out to be an undercover cop, is Mercedes Ruehl, early in her career.

Show me, that is.

Robert: you, hesitant about chiding me? When did this get started? It seems unnatural, or at least unaccustomed.

Julia, there is indeed a knitted Klein bottle, and it turns out to make a good hat. There's a knitted Mobius-strip scarf that goes with it. You might make your mathematician friend happy by giving him this link:

http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004347.html

It's a post I did a while back on geek knitting, collecting as many of these oddities as I could find.

Bill Blum's link to The Worst Poetry Contests led me, eventually, to this:

http://www.windpub.com/literary.scams/D-Barry.htm

Teresa--

You don't, of course, need my approval for your policy decisions: you're the moderator here. That said, thank you. Anyone who wants to go on at that much irrelevant length can start their own blog.

". . . and it turns out to make a good hat."

Of course, one good sneeze and your cranium gets sucked into n-space.

Because the knitted fabric can interpenetrate itself without breaking, it's even a better model of a Klein bottle than one made of glass is!

A few years ago at Potlatch a Klein Bottle Hat and Mobius scarf set went up for auction, courtesy of Vonda. When one of the bidders told me the advantage of the set was that you were invisible if you wore it, I politely pointed out that to make that possible you had to be wearing Schrodinger's Cap.

You know, I think I may even have commented on that post, and I certainly read it. I should have thought to look.

Thanks. E-mail away...

Howdy, Alex. You've already got some good stuff here, so I'll just give you what I think was the most important lesson I've pounded into my own skull in the past year or so:

Don't forget that the characters off-stage should be taking action simultaneously with the characters currently on the page.

I had the damnedest time putting the plot of my first novel together until I realized that most of the cast (including three different sets of antagonists) was just sitting around doing nothing while the main characters were onstage. My plot at the time was a sort of arbitrary teleporter that brought them into contact for pre-ordained setpieces and then ignored them again. Total crap.

I sat down and drew up four different timelines, noting who was where, and what they were doing, at what times. When this was finished, I had a chart that showed me exactly where everyone's plots and schemes would intersect, usually with fireworks.

Once this was done, I was even able to go back and erase things, keeping the first major plot intersection as a new starting point and re-extrapolating from the fallout. It really made the whole thing seem much more organic and lively. So don't forget that every character should be active, all the time, even if the reader doesn't see these actions except through their eventual consequences.

And hey, if you wanted to be really special, I suppose you could even map out all of these separate chrono-instances from your plot diagrams onto graph paper, choose appropriate yarn colors, and use them as a pattern to knit a hat.

I would so do this, but I can't knit. In fact, I'm a negative knitting quantity. I actually suck talent from knitters when I drive past their houses; baby sweaters end up lopsided, with two necks. Dog comforters turn into Chinese finger traps.

I always thought Robbie the Robot was Ariel, since he's similarly useful and can provide quickly whatever is needed, and that the Monster of the Id was Caliban, who was full of barely controlled lust and anger.
On the other hand, Robbie does provide alcohol to one of the crewmen, so perhaps that's analogous to the instance in the play where the shipwrecked sailors get Caliban drunk?

Teresa--Within this forum is different. In the real world, I can control my own vowels...

Barbara, I don't think you're alone in that. It's been far too long since I've seen Forbidden Planet and even longer since I read The Tempest but I also figured Robbie as Ariel, the captive spirit, and the Monster from the Id as Caliban.

I'm amazed (and rather thankful) that they haven't remade that film.

There have been threats^H^H^H^H^H^H^H plans to remake Forbidden Planet. Rumors of the sort that used to get cover billing in Starlog magazine. Like Dave, I'm glad none of them came to fruition.

Although . . . the first-pilot episode of "Star Trek" is a kind of hommage to FP, and I thought not a bad one.

Vicki, that thought has occurred to me.

Scott, that's one of Pat Wrede's great pieces of advice for getting out of plot bottlenecks: take note of what your secondary characters have been doing in the meantime.

Barbara, I've always figured Robbie was Ariel. The wizard only has two servants, and the Monster from the Id is an obvious Caliban-analogue.

Robert, granted, in the real world you can control your own vowels. Here, only my sense of honor keeps me from messing with your use of judgment and acknowledge.

Since there are knitters here, can I ask some questions?

I've really only just learned to knit, and by knit, I mean the regular plain knitting stitch; I think it's called a gauge stitch. I've now made several squares (sans holes or dropped stitches !) for baby blankets. Last week I learned to purl. I can cast on, and cast off. I thought I'd practice making squares of various combinations of knitting and purling, since I'm still doing some very odd things from time to time. I like knitting, but frankly, it's the kind of thing that's really hard for me, so I know I need to practice more.

I'm not overly adept at learning spatially-related tasks from books, and I tend to do most things backwards, but umm--I kind of like this. I've got a couple of friends I can ask very specific questions of. Now where do I go from here?

Teresa wrote:
Julia, there is indeed a knitted Klein bottle, and it turns out to make a good hat. There's a knitted Mobius-strip scarf that goes with it. You might make your mathematician friend happy by giving him this link:

Although they're currently sold out of the Klein bottle hats, I'd like to put in a plug for the Acme Klein Bottle company responsible for such fine manifolds. I ordered my chemist wife their Klein Erlenmeyer flask for Christmas, and I got a warm and funny acknowledgement e-mail ten minutes after placing the order.

It was only after I'd responded back that I noticed the name of the proprietor. It's Cliff Stoll -- author of The Cuckoo's Egg and eminent countergeek. I'm delighted to see he's keeping himself entertained these days.

Lisa, I have a little book called "the Knitter's Companion" by Vicki Square which has been very useful. It is spiral bound and fits inside my knitting bag, which is NOT very large. (it's the size of approximatley a 4 x 6 notecard plus the spiral, plus 3/4" of pages)

I learned to knit at a child but only became adventerous recently (from scarves and simple baby sweaters to things like Teddy Bears).

I also apparently knit oddly, I've had a lot of people watch me for a while, then say, "Okay, that looked odd to start with, but you were obviously taught how to knit by a left-hander (and I'm a right-hander)."

But things always come out okay, even if they don't always start promisingly. Right now I'm trying to learn how to make socks/foot warmers.

A slight commercial plug for something I have no actual monetary interest in --

Connor Freff Cochran has produced a new, unabridged reading by the author (with songs and music) of Peter S. Beagle's _The Last Unicorn_. Peter's an amazing reader -- I haven't actually heard this reading, but I've loved listening to him read (and I don't usually like readings). Downloads will be available before the end of the month, and CDs/tapes will be available in early Feb. And early purchasers will get a limited edition of a new short story which continues the story (and a damn fine story it is, too!). www.conlanpress.com -- check it out.

The tenuous connection with TNH and Making Light -- the illustration they're using is from Leo and Diane Dillon, who also live in Brooklyn, and who I got to visit once whilst visiting P&T. And they're only using that illustration because I saw an incomplete version that the Dillons showed at a slide show at one of the few conventions they've attended, and told Connor that it existed. And I'm just totally chuffed that I managed to get that painting finished by bringing them together....

The announcement here is one of the very first about the existence of this site.

Something I've been meaning to ask:

How's the move going?

Paula - Are you sure that you were taught by a left-hander? You may have been taught to knit "Continental" style. I'm right-handed, but hold the yarn in my left hand, and was taught to knit this way by two right-handed people.

At one point, I did teach myself to knit with my right hand as well (in order to do a 2-color pattern without switching the yarn color every 3 stitches), but I prefer lefty knitting for general use. I won't go into why, as lefty vs. righty knitting debates seem to get people as whipped up as Red Sox vs. Yankees.

Acme Klein Bottle is Good. I have a Klein Stein. I'm not sure I'd dare put beer in it -- it's virtually impossible to klean -- but it still looks kute.

Issey Miyake had a klein bottle evening gown about 10 years ago, though they didn't call it that. I really wanted one, but they were about two grand.

Stefan: how do you see "The Menagerie" as hommage to FP? Yes, it has a sheltered girl and a masculine intruder -- but that's an ancient and well-used plot; by that standard Shakespeare was cribbing from "Rapunzel". And the older works are about learning to master one's own passions as well as the outside world, where the Talosians are the ultimate pin-the-butterfly-to-the-display-board cold intellects.

Jo: re the source of Tooth and Claw: does that make it this generation's Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead?

Alter, do you mean Tor's move? We're back on the 14th floor, plus parts of the 13th. Unpacking and re-establishing ourselves now.

CHip: Not to my understanding of what Stoppard meant, no. I don't see R&GaD as a variation on a theme of Hamlet, I see it as literal intertextuality.

And I still want to see the performance of both plays with the same cast that the characters in Pamela Dean's Tam Lin got to see.

"Stefan: how do you see 'The Menagerie' as hommage to FP?"

"The Cage" (available largely intact on video, BTW) and _Forbidden Planet_ share a similar sober vibe.

Specific plot stuff:

* Protagonists come to rescue shipwrecked explorers. One of them is an alluring beauty.

* Ancient, accomplished civilization falls prey to technology . . . in this case, memory records and something like virtual reality. Not fatal, but the Talosians are effectively as moribund as the Krell, who fell prey to a wishing machine.

I don't think this is a cheat or plaguarism on Roddenberry's part. He chose to model his "Horatio Hornblower in Space" series after a somber but wonder-filled movie.

I have an Acme Klein Bottle here in my cube at work. It's on a little marble platform.

I'm disappointed how few of my cow-orkers know what it is.

I also have print-outs of pictures of Burgess Shale critters, so people will know what the test machines "Opabinia" and "Wiwaxia" are named after.

Issey Miyake had a klein bottle evening gown about 10 years ago, though they didn't call it that.

Oh dear, now we have to accessorize.

Jewelry by Arisia, obviously, with a heavy ceramic bangle from Firsk in native yellow. (We're thinking golds and blacks here.)

Second Foundation garments from the Earle Bergey Collection.

Hermes scarf. The god, not the other guys.

To cover up, a hooded leather cape by Isaac Mizrahi, for a touch of the mundane.

Lorgnette by Weissenbroch & Söhne.

Something from Isher; probably an energy derringer with pavé diamond optics in a garter holster. (This isn't> streetwear, darlings.) Because the right to buy weapons is the right to shop.

And a Snakeskin temporal displacement bag from Judith & Fritz Leiber; if you forget something, you can always go back and put it in.

The shoes are an interesting problem. Probably a pair of Instrumentality heels in 18k from Smith Cordovan, though I'm not actually sure one wears shoes with this outfit; holographic nail treatments might be better.

Yes, you're right, I can't be trusted with any arrangement of words.

Vicki, Teresa not only suggested JVP make his own blog, he did, but apparently there aren't enough people reading it, so he posts here.

Lead story in today's WashPost is the first of three articles on the high incidence of pregnant women and new mothers killed by the father of the baby:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A10074-2004Dec18.html

I just got an odd piece of email in my inbox, and given its subject matter, I thought I'd post here and see if this is some new trend for marketing self-published books, or if a particular author hit on a Big Idea.

The author looked at the reviews of a book similar to his/hers (in this case, Guy Gavriel Kay's Last Light of the Sun) and picked up my email address from a review I left there. He/she sent me an email saying basically that if you like Kay's, you might like mine, and also was slightly apologetic about being mixed in with "vanity press" authors which might make him look bad. The publisher of the book was XLibris, which I know nothing about.

It sort of bemused me, as it was a very polite email, and could, I suppose, be a reliable marketing effort - except most people loathe spam, and might be moved to leave a bad review at Amazon in retaliation. Has anybody else had this happen? And what do you think of the strategy?

genibee:
"It sort of bemused me, as it was a very polite email, and could, I suppose, be a reliable marketing effort - except most people loathe spam, and might be moved to leave a bad review at Amazon in retaliation. Has anybody else had this happen? And what do you think of the strategy?"

I wouldn't retaliate, if that's what you're asking. And even if it's technically spam, if the author addressed you directly then it's spam on the very shallow end of the asshole pool. It sounds like a sincere marketing attempt by a person who just wants a little validation. That doesn't mean you should buy the book, of course. (And XLibris is in fact a vanity PoD press, albeit a relatively non-evil one.)

I've done similar myself. When Randy Milholland at Something Positive was talking about online superhero fiction last week, I dropped him a line with a pointer to my blogfic, saying I thought he might like it. I didn't expect anything to come of it, and as far as I know nothing has. I figure the popular sites probably get a few dozen e-mails like that a day. But I don't believe it hurts, either, so long as you aren't obnoxious about it. When you're relatively unknown, the only way to make people aware of something you've done is to tell them.

Tom Whitmore: the news about the audiobook of _The Last Unicorn_ is quite interesting. Will it be available through Audible.com, do you know? (And if the web maintainer is here, why no pricing info yet? "By phone or e-mail," pfui.)

Bruce wrote:
When one of the bidders told me the advantage of the set was that you were invisible if you wore it, I politely pointed out that to make that possible you had to be wearing Schrodinger's Cap.

One of the characters in Bad Magic has a "Schroedinger's cap" in his bag. (Page 62.) And yes, TNH figured I'd typoed "Schroedinger's cat"-- but after I said it was okay as written, she didn't ask me what a "Schroedinger's cap" was. We were both in a hurry, so I figured I'd get back to it later...

My idea for what a "Schroedinger's cap" does is it's a last-ditch emergency protective measure. You can put it on any time you want-- but at the next instant in time someone observes you, there will be exactly a 50% chance you'll be alive. (Hey, if you're standing next to a hydrogen bomb that's about to go off, it's better than nothing...)

Stephan - Interesting. For years, I've regarded airplanes as Schroedinger's Capsules, which exist in an indeterminate state between boarding and disembarking, although the odds are considerably better than 50-50. I'm not sure I'd want to add a Schroedinger's Cap to my wardrobe, though.

Anyone know a good user guide or reference book for Quicken?

My father could use one. The product he has only comes with online docs, which he doesn't seem comfortable using.

Thanks...

... and my cats delight in trying to find Schroedinger's Cat-toys... especially at 2am!

Kate, I agree they should have the price there; but it's not my website, and I think the decision was not to put the price up until they were ready to sell the streaming version. I believe it's about $30 for the streamed version and $40 for the CDs. They won't be available through Audible, because Audible takes way too big a cut -- and they're hoping to start breaking that stranglehold and get more money into the authors' hands with this. It'll be an interesting experiment, indeed.

Kate (and anybody else who is interested): Regarding pricing on the new LAST UNICORN audiobook and the special collector's edition hardcover of "Two Hearts," Peter's new sequel/coda to his original novel...

1) The prices *will* be on the website as soon as the techies on the team hook up our new shopping cart software to our new merchant account software to our new secure file downloading software and make it all work. They tell me this will be very soon now, and I certainly hope they are right.

2) The prices weren't there yet because, frankly, no one was supposed to KNOW about this yet. The site that is there now was set up just one week ago, and was intended solely to prove to the merchant account bank that we weren't selling porn, drugs, or a chance to come gamble. The web being what it is, of course, people started to find us anyway within less than 24 hours and here we are scrambling to catch up. (As problems go, it's one I'm actually happy to have.)

3) Here are the prices. $30 for the downloadable MP3 version (available as soon as the filehandling software works). $40 for the CD edition (available in February). $55 for both together. Plus a small shipping/handling charge which will vary depending on whether you are a US resident or live overseas. California residents will also have to pay CA sales tax.

4) The first 2000 customers will also get, for free, the signed limited edition hardcover of "Two Hearts." That will ship around mid-January.

Anything else anyone wants to know, I'd be happy to answer. Just email me.

BTW, Tom was being kind when he referred to Audible.com's cut as "way too big." Their standard deal is that they take 88%, and as far as I'm concerned that's robbery.

I have no intention of retaliating, although I know people rabid enough and with very hardline definitions of spam that might consider it. It mostly was that given the recent discussion of vanity press topics, it was funny to see the topic pop up again in a way I didn't expect. I do hope that it isn't a new trend of harvesting email addresses off of Amazon, however, because then I'll have to make myself unavailable there, and I've had a few good conversations with people who wanted to respond to something I've said in one of my occasional reviews.

Tom, Connor Freff Cochran, thanks for the information. I confess that I have an Audible subscription and really like it--mostly I just don't *want* to pay $30 for an audiobook, which is more than the print version for something less desirable (though obviously still desirable). Without Audible I wouldn't buy _any_ audiobooks--I'd just make do with what my local library has.

I shall certainly ask my local library to get the CD version of this.

Let's see: The .mp3 + hardcover is $30. CD + hardcover is $40. Therefore, .mp3 + CD + 2 hardcovers is $70. .mp3 + CD + hardcover is $55. Therefore the hardcover costs $15 (at least, to someone who's buying both audio versions anyway). That makes the .mp3 by itself $15, and the CD $25.

My brain works that way: it automatically does any available arithmetic. At least the prices here are consistent. (One sandwich shop I used to go to in the Fulton Fish Market before they touristized it had a swiss cheese and avocado sandwich, an avocado sandwich with added swiss cheese, and a swiss cheese sandwich with added avocado at three different prices.)

Mr. Cochran, what the heck does Audible provide that it wants an 88% cut? They don't line up the reader, do they? Or do the master digitized disk(s)?

Even American Express only wants about a point more than Visa/MC takes from merchants; somewhere in the 3-5 percent range, as I recall.

Kate -- "more than the print version"...

Which print version? Current hardcovers are getting close to that price, but are still a bit less. First editions are a lot more. THE LAST UNICORN is currently available as a trade paperback at about half the price -- but last I looked, the actual cost of producing a trade paperback is significantly less than the price of producing any (even a mediocre) audiobook. I haven't heard this book, I have no investment in it (except that two old friends are deeply involved!) -- and I think that at the length it takes to read and record this particular story, the cost is very appropriate. And knowing the prinicpals -- this won't be mediocre. What Connor and Peter have done seems very parallel to the "cool limited edition book" approach to audio (without the bonus of a limitation). And the short story (which is, I say as an outsider who's read it, of a quality to match the novel -- it's prime Beagle, and I do not say that lightly) sort of adds limitation back in. I currently don't have a working sound card or CD burner, so I'm not planning to download it myself (full disclosure).

Connor, I didn't mention numbers because I didn't think it was my place to do so.

Seth, you're assuming that fixed costs scale precisely to relative costs. Not a good assumption. I'm not privy to the finances, but assuming a base amortization cost of (say) $15 per copy (which will, of course, go down if many, many copies sell, but will also go up if fewer than expected copies actually sell), something pretty close to the costs seems reasonable.

Or -- yer talking outa yer hat dude, that's not how costs work -- n-th copy ain't same as first copy, which you assume.

Stefan Jones: I also have print-outs of pictures of Burgess Shale critters, so people will know what the test machines "Opabinia" and "Wiwaxia" are named after.

Stefan, you do know that there are some very nice Burgess fossil toys these days as well? I like this set from the Royal Ontario Museum which has an Opabinia and a Wiwaxia. There's also the Chocolasaurs, a Japanese series of prehistoric creature toys that includes Opabinia, Anomalocaris, and Hallucigenia.

Linkmeister asked "what the heck does Audible provide that it wants an 88% cut? They don't line up the reader, do they? Or do the master digitized disk(s)?"

I'm sure they would say that they -do- line up the reader, given their website devoted to audio books.

One thing I know they do is arrange with various hardware companies that make MP3 players to provide special support for Audible-format MP3 files. An Audible-compatible player must be capable of remembering exactly where you were when you last stopped listening to any book. Thus, you can stop reading book A anywhere you want, read book B for awhile, then book C, and when go back to either A or B and you will automatically resume exactly where you left off.

Also, they have several buying plans for "heavy" consumers of audio books. For 20 USD per month you can get 2 books, regardless of their list price. They run occasional sales at that price (10 USD per book) for as many as you want to buy.

I'm not sure whether any of that justifies the purported 88% commission, but if they weren't keeping that much I doubt they could provide such good deals as they do on their monthly plan or their sales, both of which significantly reduce the cost of audio books to the consumer.

(By the way, I have no affiliation with Audible other than as a happy consumer.)

Tom: I buy books to read, not to collect, so first editions etc. aren't of interest to me. I don't doubt that audiobooks cost more to produce--that's not the issue to me. I'm saying that the enjoyment I get out of audio versions is less than the enjoyment I get out of a print version, and the price I'm willing to pay varies accordingly.

genibee, I remember this method being popular a couple of years ago. Some POD writer got some sales that way and then was interviewed in a magazine. I forget what magazine.

I'm planning on reviewing grammar over break. I wondered if anyone here has read Eats, Shoots and Leaves? Is it fun and good? I want to brush up but have fun at the same time.

Checkitout.

And of course the very day that I see it and think, "Oh boy, two recent-ish Making Light posts got together and had a Hitherby baby," there's an open thread here so I can spout off about it. Must be the work of the Fanfic Devil!

ElizabethVomMarlowe wrote:
I'm planning on reviewing grammar over break. I wondered if anyone here has read Eats, Shoots and Leaves? Is it fun and good? I want to brush up but have fun at the same time.

May I commend to your attention The Deluxe Transitive Vampire: A Handbook of Grammar for the Innocent, the Eager and the Doomed, by Karen Elizabeth Gordon.

It's not the best grammar reference in the world for a quick lookup or to get a specific question answered, but it's a good general read, and the example sentenes are consistently entertaining if you're in a Gorey sort of mood.

Sorry - I guess that was a bit off-topic even for an open thread. It seemed vaguely appropriate and I was all excited, that's my only excuse.

Having now gone back and read the rest of this thread, it seems I have more things to be all excited about (i.e. the upcoming Last Unicorn audio book).

Thanks Steve! It sounds great. I love a good gothic.

Elizabeth -- I've read Eats, Shoots and Leaves and it was pretty entertaining. It focuses on the British variants of punctuation, but does mention American rules as well (in a nice non-judgemental way: I like some British rules and some American rules, and never once felt like I was being told I was wrong). There's quite a lot of history in it, which is interesting, and some amusing sample sentences. I don't know how terribly much it would teach anyone; I think anybody who's interested enough to pick it up already knows what it covers.

Dear God, I think I used every available punctuation mark in that last post. I didn't mean to, really. I just write like that. I've probably done something embarrassingly ungrammatical, too.

Tiger Spot: every single punctuation mark? I think not!

Not twenty mintues out of my trademark exam, I find a link to a trademark article, and from there, a link to the actual complaint.

The following is not Legal Advice. I am not a lawyer. Do not rely on the following statements for any reason whatsoever. Don't. Really.

If that's the complaint, NCSoft may actually be in trouble. The "Statesman" stuff is crap, as are the causes based on the abilities of users to name their avatars whatever they choose (note that they HAVE prevented use of actual TMed names). But the ease of construction of TMed characters? That's a little worrisome, especially if discovery finds documents tending towards that being in the intent of the designers (not unlikely, is my guess. And if design notes on the claw option says "Three! like Wolverine!", well...) or if the options presented take some of Marvel's design choices as default (the three-claw thing is a good example here: if a Mutant:Scrapper:Claws choice produces three claws in a Wolvie-like configuration, I'd worry. If they're more Molly (or Lady Deathstrike, a less-notable Marvel entity) or generic Werewolf, things look better.).

But the general disparagement of Marvel's suit, is not, I think, warranted.

Mr. Farrell, by "reader" I meant the actor/author who does the book-reading, not the customer. Sorry for the confusion.

That array of services is broader than I'd thought. I didn't realize that Audible's format is non-standard; that would obviously add cost to the equation. Thanks.

Tom, by prices I was referring to the prices that the purchaser (me) would see. They have nothing to do with production costs, which I realize are mostly fixed.

By "consistent" I meant with each other; that is, I didn't see any arbitrage possibilities.

30 years ago, my roommate had a set of Napoleon Hill's salesman-inspiring books, The Laws of Success. I read two or three books into the ten-volume series, and felt that Hill had some good ideas. The best thing I took away, I didn't take as he intended. He said something like, 'If you would know a man, see how he behaves
...when he's winning
...when he's losing
...when he doesn't know he's being watched
...when he's with people he loves
...when he's with people he hates..."
and so on.

Wow! I said to myself, this is what a writer does when showing a character -- not describing, but demonstrating. I filed it away for the day it would be useful. Well, now I'm getting older and older, and it's time to hand some of this brilliance off to others, who probably know it already, but what the h*ck.

By the way, speaking of squeezeboxes, I'm just listening to Bach's famous Toccata & Fugue in d minor played by Russian virtuoso Sergei Slepokourov. Technically, it's a bayan, not an accordion, but the tone's pretty similar. That's some mighty sweet squeezin', Sergei. (He also does Voices of Spring and Largo Al Factotum.)

Where to go from knitting garter stitch squares: Barbara G. Walker put together a lovely guide, The Learn-to-Knit Afghan Book, which Schoolhouse Press has kept in print. It's a really astonishing knitting primer -- if you can do everything in that book, you'll have few problems doing anything else you'd like to make.

Geek knitting alert: Cat Bordhi has published two books of patterns, all of which start with moebius strips in some way. The first one is called A Treasury of Magical Knitting. I can't vouch for the quality of either the patterns or prose, but the premise is at least amusing.