FIRST PO --

(Sorry, wrong thread.)

Teresa, when are you going to bolt together a successor to Making Book?

One with all the useful advice you've bolted together in Making Light over the years. Dunno about anyone else, but I'd buy it. And I don't normally buy books about writing.

Posted January 13, 2005 4:30 PM by Charlie Stross

(In case my motivation for posting wasn't clear, I think the existence of the 28 amazon screenfuls of crap means you've got a moral duty to pub your ish, lest bad advice drive out good. Although maybe I'm being selfish here ...)

Posted January 13, 2005 4:32 PM by Charlie Stross

Someone recently suggested to me that you and I write a book on writing together. My immediate reaction to that was "What on Earth would Teresa need *me* for in that scenario?" There's nothing worse than being the third wheel when there's only two people.

I second the idea of another Making Book -- "Making Book II: Electric Boogaloo."

Posted January 13, 2005 4:34 PM by John Scalzi

That's all very well, but first I need to denounce Tobias Bucknell, who has linked to this post. Not only has he identified me as Patrick Nielsen Hayden, and identified The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing as the next book about writing that should be written (as opposed to one I have dibs on writing, and by the way I left out two-thirds of the chapter titles, so let other people come up with their own ideas), but for some reason his comment window keeps spitting me out when I try to advise him of these things. In between attempts nos. 2 and 3 it let Brad DeLong post, which is good insofar as it resulted in my getting to read a Brad DeLong comment, but is otherwise Very Irritating.

Posted January 13, 2005 4:59 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

you know, I really think The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing would sell.

Truly.

Write it.

(please)

Posted January 13, 2005 4:59 PM by mistri

May I preorder _Crystal Fire_?

Posted January 13, 2005 5:06 PM by Brad DeLong

I wish you would write The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing. Your advice is honest and fascinating, and you have a deliciously witty way of putting things into perspective. I've always been too shy to comment here before, but I felt this was worth the public exposure.

Posted January 13, 2005 5:19 PM by Julia Rios

"Tough Love for New Writers" at Worldcon _was_ awfully popular . . .

Posted January 13, 2005 5:24 PM by Kate Nepveu

I agree with the above posters. The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing needs to be written. Most of the other books I've read on writing (and more specifically, getting published) are complete crap.

Posted January 13, 2005 5:26 PM by Ben Trafford

I'm sorry Teresa, if it makes things better you just misspelled my name. But I'm sorry, I was grabbing your post off of my RSS reader and got things really switched up, and then it double posted and things got weird, I was blogging on my way out of the door at work and I shouldn't do that.

Posted January 13, 2005 5:26 PM by tobias buckell

I'm greedy. I want to buy The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing, and I want to buy it now. With a forward by Gavin Grant, who was so charming and depressing on the Tough Love for New Writers panel.

I also want you to keep working at editing books.

(And while we're at it, a pony would be nice, but I'd give up the pony for items #1 and #2.)

Posted January 13, 2005 5:36 PM by Beth

tobias buckell wrote: "I'm sorry Teresa..."

That's not a proper apology! A proper apology is, I think, the one from _Startide Rising_: "With my last volition, I will remove my head and place it in your trophy rack. May the next one I grow serve you better."

Posted January 13, 2005 5:50 PM by Brad DeLong

More:

How To Write a Novel on a Budget (or, So You've Decided to be Poor)
On Becoming Famous

Posted January 13, 2005 5:53 PM by Dan Lewis

I bought Making Book--I'd buy The Oppressively Real Guide.

I did the next best thing though, and bookmarked that post of Neil's. (Well, I suppose the Real Next Best Thing would be actually utilising all that knowledge instead of reading it over and over and over and over and merely calling myself a writer. She said guiltily.)

Posted January 13, 2005 6:07 PM by PiscusFiche

I thought Tobias apologized very nicely, actually. Though a self-beheading would be fun to watch. And Brad? Your comment appears to have disappeared. Um...[wanders away, muttering and rolling his eyes]

Posted January 13, 2005 6:07 PM by Xopher

Why don't you call it Why You'll Never Be Published?

Posted January 13, 2005 6:13 PM by Robert L

What an unexpected series of events. Brad DeLong has made me wish to read Startide Rising.

Posted January 13, 2005 6:13 PM by Ulrika

As an aspiring writer, I'd learned a lot of the advice you put out to Neil Gaiman a long time ago (that doesn't move me further than aspiring yet-- sometimes one has to wait for one's craft to mature). But it's still good advice, and I'm glad to know that things haven't changed *that much* in the 20 years or so that I've been learning (an agent who will take you when you're nobody is still an agent you don't want, for instance).

One of my new rules is: if it's a book on writing and it's not written by someone whose name I instantly recognize, and it's not a market book, then I won't buy it. There are some exceptions to that, like I'll buy it if I'm looking for something to get me started in a new genre (a beginner book), or if it's something that's just to help *me* generate ideas, not tell me what to write or how to write it. And, of course, there are some books on writing that you get just to mock.

Examples: Stephen King, Ray Bradbury, and Ursula Le Guin all have books about writing. I recognize their names-- they write books that I like to read. Thus, their writing books are on my bookshelves. If Teresa Nielsen Hayden came out with a book about editing or publishing, I would recognize the name from your very insightful blog and buy the book. It would not be Yet Another Book on Publishing any more than King's was Yet Another Book on Writing. It would be Good. And I would know it would be Good before I shelled out my hard-earned-day-job money for it, because it came from a reputable source.

Basically, all I'm saying is, twenty-eight pages of books written by nobody do not measure up to ONE book written by Somebody I Respect. When a writer goes to buy a book on writing, a beginner buys any book and is as likely to end up with yours as they are to end up with 1-280. When an intermediate-level writer goes to buy a book on writing, she knows what she's not looking for, and knows how to avoid the other stuff.

Posted January 13, 2005 6:18 PM by Mortaine

I think there's potential for a whole *series* of Oppressively Real Guides: The Oppressively Real Guide to the Academic Job Market, The Oppressively Real Guide to Opening a Restaurant, The Oppressively Real Guide to Instituional Reform...

Posted January 13, 2005 6:20 PM by Ulrika

As someone who has hoarded copies of Patricia's posts on AOL's message boards, but unfortunately, only in hardcopy, I would love if she'd do a book. Maybe we could start a petition?

I'd buy The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing, too.

Posted January 13, 2005 6:33 PM by Shelly

The Oppressively Real Guide to Graphic Design, The Oppressively Real Guide to Web Site Design, The Oppressively Real Guide to Professional Sports, The Oppressively Real Guide to Careers in Music, The Oppressively Real Guide to Working at Home, The Oppressively Real Guide to Careers in Law, The Oppressively Real Guide to Careers in Medicine, ...

The possibilities are endless!

Posted January 13, 2005 6:46 PM by Alan Bostick

The Oppressively Real Guide to Large Scale Information Management

There are a lot of these where you could get a room full of clever people arguing about who was the least disqualified to write it.

Posted January 13, 2005 6:51 PM by Graydon

Is it possible that I’m finally developing a sense of prudence?

Now that is funny stuff.

;)

btw, I'd really like to read "The Vulcan Death Grip for New Writers", or the "New Writers Wear Red-Shirts", or how about this one: "Buck-private Stormtroopers in the Empiriral Army, or what its like to be a new writer"

Glad to hear you're coming out from under the flu...

Posted January 13, 2005 6:56 PM by Greg London

...The Oppressively Real Guide to Landing on Mars,
The Oppressively Real Guide to Spreading Democracy,
The Oppressively Real Guide to Digital Rights Management...

Posted January 13, 2005 6:57 PM by Andy Perrin

Xopher, Brad's comment, which was awesome, btw, got lost when I deleted a duplicate entry. I was typing this up on my laptop right before leaving the lab, in a hurry to pick up my wife's car from the mechanics (starter motor failure), and between my natural state up befuddledness and the luck I usually get, did not choose to, oh say, save the post as a draft, or come back and do it later, I had to get *things accomplished.* I usually have a couple minutes to realize my mistake and issue mea culpas, but by the time I looked over the post, tried to put up a fixed one, doubled the entries, tried to undouble the entry and the two trackbacks, I was up that special creek I seem to have a motorboat for... and Brad's post came in and I laughed...

Here is what he said (like 10 seconds after I posted/double posted and panicked trying to fix my mistake):

Genesis 2:24 does say: "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh." But it is possible that you will live longer if you distinguish between PNH--Patrick Nielsen Hayden--and his wife TNH--Teresa Nielsen Hayden.

Ah well, another drink in honor of my technical incompetence should do the trick. Just don't tell my employers who *pay* me to advise them on tech, then the gig might be up :-)

-Tobias S. buckell

Posted January 13, 2005 7:10 PM by tobias buckell

Ulrika wrote: What an unexpected series of events. Brad DeLong has made me wish to read Startide Rising.

Just make sure you read Alexander Jablokov's A Deeper Sea, as an antidote.

Posted January 13, 2005 7:13 PM by David Moles

On a side note (or a Particles note), I think we should start calling fraudulent literary agencies “melanie mills.” You know, kind of like diploma mills, only not really.

Posted January 13, 2005 7:16 PM by David Moles

...The Oppressively Real Guide to Home Ownership...The Oppressively Real Guide to Dog Training...The Oppressively Real Guide to Marriage...The Oppressively Real Guide to Child-Rearing...The Oppressively Real Guide to Job Hunting...

What is the "For Dummies" tagline? "A Reference for the Rest of Us"? Feh. We've got 'em all right here on TNH's site.

Posted January 13, 2005 7:20 PM by Jill Smith

The Oppressively Real Guide to the Galaxy.

Posted January 13, 2005 7:23 PM by Dan Lewis

The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing.

Just think of the cheery atmosphere you would have at the book signings! That alone should be enough inspiration to put it out there. :)

Posted January 13, 2005 7:29 PM by JamesG

How about a book called The Obsessively Optimistic Guide to Getting Published in the Face of a Wall of Naysayers?

Sorry, I just have to spread the sunshine, because we haven't had any in Ontario in months.

Posted January 13, 2005 7:39 PM by Randall P.

The chapter on booksignings in The Oppressively Real Guide starts with the advice, "Bring some crossword puzzles."

Posted January 13, 2005 7:47 PM by James D. Macdonald

The chapter on booksignings in The Oppressively Real Guide starts with the advice, "Bring some crossword puzzles."

lol! Or you could create your own game, like counting how many people try desperately to avoid eye contact with you as they enter the store.

No, I can't see you, so you must not be there.

Posted January 13, 2005 7:53 PM by JamesG

The Oppressively Real Guide to Owning an Independent Bookshop

I could help with that one, 25 years in and the trench is getting deeper....

Posted January 13, 2005 7:54 PM by Fred Ramsey

All of us regular readers/commenters want to read this book that Teresa must write. If we each donated a few bucks to cover publication costs for the first print run, it might prove that this book is worth publishing. Or is my nievite showing?

Posted January 13, 2005 8:03 PM by Keith

Keith - I'm not quite sure, but I think your slip is showing. I think you'd need an advance for the author as well as printing costs. Not to mention some cash for publicity & someone to make the book look purty.

Posted January 13, 2005 8:16 PM by Margaret Organ-Kean

By the way, you left one of my favorite threads out of the list on Neil's page: Follow the Money.

Posted January 13, 2005 8:18 PM by James D. Macdonald

May I consult on The Oppressively Real Guide to Child Rearing?

And ought there not to be a companion volume, The Oppressively Real Guide to Working in Publishing and Other Glamor Industries?

Posted January 13, 2005 8:57 PM by Madeleine Robins

You know, one of the posts you link to -
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/000159.html - has one of the oldest examples of blog comment spam I've seen. It should be in a museum or something.

The odd thing about that particular spam is that it seems to have been directed not at blogs but at comments for various online stores. (See this google search) All, that is, except for the one hit on Making Light. (Perhaps the other victims have already purged the spam?)

So perhaps this is an example of accidental blog comment spam?

Posted January 13, 2005 10:36 PM by Daniel Martin

Nah, the title should be The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing for the Clueless.

Posted January 13, 2005 10:51 PM by Dave Kuzminski

If we can't afford an advance for TNH's book, perhaps she could get it self published. I hear that is a great way to become a bestselling author.
mark

Posted January 13, 2005 11:16 PM by gaukler

A problem with most writing advice is that wannabe writers will willfully misinterpret it.

Another is that they will ignore major points and focus obsessively on passing remarks of no significance, trying to figure out how they can turn this Revealed Wisdom inside out.

And a third is that much writing advice goes out of date faster than one might think. By the time you could actually get The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing assembled and into print, at least some of the specifics in it will be out of date, and many readers will focus obsessively on those, constructing bizarre and paranoid interpretations of them. (See problems 1 and 2.)

Posted January 14, 2005 12:59 AM by Lawrence Watt-Evans

FWIW, I've got the Scithers/Schweitzer/Ford book. It's been some years since I read it, but yes, it's very straightforward. So straightforward it's almost difficult.

Posted January 14, 2005 1:24 AM by Steve Eley

I would also buy The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing, and/or a book compiled from Making Light posts on the topic. I hope someday to change the 'would' to 'will'.

Posted January 14, 2005 1:53 AM by Tina

Making Book just went on my re-read list along with The Editors Strike Back. Both are on my keepers shelf and if you do another I'm sure it would feel at home.
Just to check I went over to Amazon and not only is Making Book still listed as available, although with a rather strange bit about a shipping surcharge, but in the people who bought this book also bought listing the second listed is The Editors Strike Back. More expensive. Longer shipping time but eligible for super saver. Weird. Amazon!

Posted January 14, 2005 2:48 AM by Margaret (MTZ)

Okay--am adding my plea for that book. And I am someone who has written several books about writing myself.

But the stuff you write, T, is unlike anyone else's with its wide-ranging knowledge base AND witty, incisive commentary. You puncture pretensions better than anyone else I know.

DO it.

Jane

Posted January 14, 2005 3:19 AM by jane

I was going to protest that the best book I know of on the subject of writing fiction, Josip Novakovich's Fiction Writer's Workshop, is written by a non-writer. But then I sensibly decided to do a bit of factchecking, and discover he has published all sorts of fiction, but on themes I'm just not likely to stumble across.

So I checked up on David Madden, the author of my second-favourite book on writing (and editing) fiction. (It likely has more actual usable ideas than Josip's book, but it is organized in a clumsy question-and-answer format that makes it really hard to use.) I had thought he was also otherwise unpublished, but again find I was wrong. (Again, a field I'm unlikely to stumble through. But that one might conceivably appeal to Teresa.)

While I was digging around Amazon for the info on David's book, an ad came up for this Damon Knight book, which I hadn't realized existed. Revised edition yet! Anyone read it?

And when I click off that one, I was offered a two-book discount on books by Nancy Kress and Orson Scott Card. Sheesh! Who hasn't written a book on how to write a book? Then I remembered, and laughed at myself.

Yep, there are an awful lot of them out there. But there really doesn't seem to be a frank book discussing publishing and all of its warts. I'd love to recommend it to intro publishing students. Sometimes they don't seem to believe my little set "welcome to a salary ghetto" speech.

Teresa, you keep coming back to the topic of agents, quite rightly. All of what you say is, in my experience, true. I do sometimes worry that you are going to give people a jaundiced view of all agents -- and I know quite a few who provide a really valuable service for writers. I wish there was a word that would let us differentiate between the real agents (and editors) and the predators: the supposed book doctors, "editors" and so on who prey on uninformed writers. Hmmm -- preditors?

Posted January 14, 2005 3:22 AM by Greg Ioannou

>>One of my new rules is: if it's a book on writing and it's not written by someone whose name I instantly recognize, and it's not a market book, then I won't buy it.

Posted January 14, 2005 3:43 AM by Jurie

(OK, so whatever I did there obviously did not work first time around.)

"One of my new rules is: if it's a book on writing and it's not written by someone whose name I instantly recognize, and it's not a market book, then I won't buy it."

I've had the good fortune of having a writer friend, and that has kept me from buying too many books on writing. Two that I do have, and which were specifically recommended, do not seem to fit these criteria at all: L. Rust Hills' Writing In General And The Short Story In Particular and Thomas McCormack's The Fiction Editor, The Novel and The Novelist.

Both are written by editors, not by writers. See the pattern? Editors are not all emotionally tangled up with their books like writers are. They just care about making writing work.

Posted January 14, 2005 3:44 AM by Jurie

That list of threads you sent to Neil ensured that I spent most of yesterday cat-vacuuming. Thank you, I think. :-) I'll just add my vote for Making Book The Sequel. I'd linked some time ago to a couple of those threads on my own site, I might add a few more.

It occurs to me that if I was making more effort at proper authorial self-promotion, I'd be filling in that "And your url here:" box in order to get Googlejuice for my site. But I'm still feeling more than slightly twitchy about associating "name which family will Google on" with "name under which my slash-a-like profic is published". :-S

Posted January 14, 2005 5:56 AM by Julia Jones

Madeleine - you may write The Oppressively Real Guide to Child Rearing in toto.

- She Who Has No Kids and Doesn't Want to be Like Those Authors Who Write Books About Publishing Because They Can't Get Published any Other Way.

(with apologies to our hostess, because I cannot for the life of me remember the rules for initial capitalization in titles)

Posted January 14, 2005 7:44 AM by Jill Smith

(1) Please write The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing? Pretty please? I don't know whether it would do wannabe writers any good, but I want to read it.

(2) In fact, I would love to read a number of titles in the "Oppressively Real Guide" series. The one on homeownership especially would come in handy right now, as an antidote to first-time-homeowner euphoria.

Posted January 14, 2005 7:59 AM by Metal Fatigue

Here is my *complete* book of writing advice:

"How To Stop Procrastinating
1. Switch off the TV.
2. Disconnect your modem/ADSL.
3. Put on earplugs/loud music.
4. Get to work!
5. Produce at least one page before going to sleep.
6. Repeat.

The End."

Posted January 14, 2005 8:01 AM by A.R.Yngve

Would it be too cruel to do a series for children with titles of the form "The Unpleasant Truth About Being a/an --------- When You Grow Up"? One could include astronaut, ballerina, basketball player, firefighter, pilot, Power Ranger, fairy princess, and of course, writer...

Posted January 14, 2005 8:25 AM by S. Dawson

As a bookseller, I needed to condense any advice into sound-bites, since any conversation was sure to be interrupted in moments. My Two Step process to getting published:

1) Put the words on the paper. (Paper could be email, but the words still needed to be there, not just taked about.)

2) Put the paper in the mail. (Mail can take many forms as well - but if no one sees it, it cannot possibly be published.)

Randall P. mentioned:
"How about a book called The Obsessively Optimistic Guide to Getting Published in the Face of a Wall of Naysayers?" I would substitute Relentlessly Optimistic instead. Easier to differentiate for marketing purposes, and generally more descriptive of those persons stubborn and foolish enough to continually hurl themselves against brick walls.

And on that subject, I would LOVE to read Fred Ramsey's "The Oppressively Real Guide to Owning an Independent Bookshop". I lasted 16 years in that trench, and while I enjoyed them, I would not now go back. After all, an "adventure" is someone else having a terrible time.

Posted January 14, 2005 8:53 AM by Alice Bentley

It would be useful, although perhaps impossible, to collect a list of those few writing books that are genuinely useful or contain insight. Yes, it varies for each reader and for different stages of development, but those are relatively small distinctions when compared to the gap between books written by people who understand, and otherwise.

I'd nominate Anne Lamott's Bird by Bird.

Posted January 14, 2005 8:59 AM by Alex Cohen

S. Dawson:
Would it be too cruel to do a series for children with titles of the form "The Unpleasant Truth About Being a/an --------- When You Grow Up"?

In a word, yes. I realize you were kidding, but too many kids in the real world do get the Why Bother, You'll Never Amount To Anything treatment, and that's evil. Unpleasant truths are best presented when we have the self-identity and the fortitude to do our thing anyway, if we decide we still want it.

Posted January 14, 2005 10:18 AM by iJames

Teresa, allow me to offer up a suggestion: create some categories in Movable Type and enable category archives. Then file all these lovely advice posts under some suitable category, and you'll have an instant, automatically updated index of them -- and one URL to pass around instead of twenty.

Posted January 14, 2005 10:35 AM by Stephanie

Actually, I think The Unpleasant Truth about... might be a better title for the adult-targeted series than The Oppressively Real Guide... might be. I'd certainly be more inclined to buy the former than the latter, if I didn't know the author.

Since I do, let me state that I will buy any book Teresa chooses to write, even if it's A Consolidated History of Feces. She would make it work, with wit and plain speaking.

Of course, she's the only one who possibly could get her shit together enough to do it...please don't kill me.

Posted January 14, 2005 11:42 AM by Xopher

"Would it be too cruel to do a series for children with titles of the form "The Unpleasant Truth About Being a/an --------- When You Grow Up"?"

If you got Daniel Handler, or someone with that sensibility to do it, it might work. "Dear Reader, go no further in this book if you wish to have your pleasant illusions about being a ballerina rubberstamped. Go find some other book with large, brightly colored illustrations. For here you will find, not tulle and tiaras, but hard work, malformed feet, anorexia, and incredible competitiveness..."

iJames--I'm not suggesting such books should be on the "why bother, you won't amount to anything" model--heaven forfend. One of the things about the Series of Unfortunate Events books is that, despite the tone, the kids are competent and get themselves out of a succession of horrid fixes. A career series on the same model would give the nasty truth with the same essential faith that the reader could get past the dreariness if that's what they want.

Posted January 14, 2005 11:44 AM by Madeleine Robins

Xlibris, or iUniverse, or PublishAmerica, or 1stBooks/AuthorHouse (what is it about subsidy publishers and intercaps?)

It's not subsidy publishers, it's dot-coms. Similar mentality, I grant you.

Posted January 14, 2005 11:45 AM by Glenn Hauman

Xopher:
Actually, I think The Unpleasant Truth about... might be a better title for the adult-targeted series than The Oppressively Real Guide... might be

I dunno. The first association with "Unpleasant Truth" in my head was Neal Boortz's book The Terrible Truth About Liberals.

I rather like "Oppressively Real" myself. Or you could take a page from the Dummies and Complete Idiot books; say, Writing and Publishing for the Deluded.

Posted January 14, 2005 11:47 AM by iJames

It might be too cruel to write a series of that sort for children, but I think one for teens would not be a bad idea, since most teens are capable of telling the difference between "You really need to know this thing before you try this path" and "You're just kidding yourself if you think you can succeed."

Also, I chime in on the liking "Oppressively Real" tag better. It's less pessimistic and it sounds cooler overall.

Posted January 14, 2005 11:55 AM by Tina

I'm tempted to rename my (other) blog to Oppressive Reality. Seems so apt.

Posted January 14, 2005 11:55 AM by mayakda

Does this mean we're all part of the Oppressively Reality-Based Community?

(Someone had to say it...)

Posted January 14, 2005 12:07 PM by Jill Smith

Hi Teresa,

Thanks for sending Neil the list of links...I spent most of yesterday reading through them (instead of doing, um, my job). Making Light has now been added to my addictions list.

Anyway, I know several writers, including myself, who read books on writing as a substitute for actually writing. A similar phenomenon is the time-consuming process of shopping for just the right sort of pen or the perfect leather-bound notebook, and then not using them to actually write anything. This kind of thing allows me to feel like a writer, without having to go spelunking through my subconscious and getting all tangled up with icky stuff, which is what actual writing seems to consist of for me.

Fortunately, there are so few good books about writing that lately I've had no choice but to sit and write fiction, gaah! So consider this another vote in favor of The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing.

Oh, for what it's worth, one book I can recommend (imperfect, but good) is The Sound on the Page: Style and Voice in Writing by Ben Shinoda.

Posted January 14, 2005 12:24 PM by Mary Dell

Another vote here for "Oppressively Real".

(And yes, it should be written and published.)

Posted January 14, 2005 12:40 PM by Bruce Arthurs

On the late, lamented Nicktoon "Invader Zim," in the episode "Career Day," Ms. Bitters asks kids what they want to be. "An astronaut!" one says. Bitters counters, "I had a dream once, to be an astronaut." We see the young, optimistic Bitters happily riding in a rocket. "It ended in a horrible explosion." The message, which she then spells out, is that having a dream always ends in a horrible explosion.

Later on, the kids are being given the computerized results of the four-question survey that will determine the entire future course of their lives. One of them is told she'll be an astronaut. She bursts into tears. Lesson learned!

(Zim had it all: Great looking art, dynamic animation, inventive plots, eternal characters, and the most bleak, hostile universe since "Eek! the Cat.")

Posted January 14, 2005 12:41 PM by Kip W

Kip: The Zim is mighty.

Posted January 14, 2005 12:48 PM by PiscusFiche

Ahem.

TOUCHDOWN.

That is all. You may now return to your topic.

Posted January 14, 2005 12:49 PM by ajay

Y'know, if you want to write "Oppressively Real", I'd be honored to sponsor it to NESFA....

And a comment in response to Kate's upline remark about "Tough Love for New Writers" at N4: it was amazing how much *negative* comment that came my way about not being thoroughly "supportive" to struggling neos.

Feh.

Posted January 14, 2005 1:16 PM by Priscilla

Priscilla: really? Gosh. The attitude in the room seemed to me to be very appreciative. Were these people who disliked the concept without knowing about the execution?

Posted January 14, 2005 1:34 PM by Kate Nepveu

Jill said: Does this mean we're all part of the Oppressively Reality-Based Community?

Well, the Livejournal mirror of my blog now is. :-)

Posted January 14, 2005 1:55 PM by Julia Jones

I feel like Publish and Be Damned would make a good book/chapter title on this subject.

Posted January 14, 2005 2:40 PM by Laura Roberts

Somebody needs to tell Toby that he mis-spelled his last name....

(Well, miscapitalized. But that's not as funny.)

Posted January 14, 2005 2:44 PM by elizabeth bear

A similar phenomenon is the time-consuming process of shopping for just the right sort of pen or the perfect leather-bound notebook, and then not using them to actually write anything.

I did that when shopping for my laptop (a slow little iBook that's completely unsuited for the games I put on my other computers). Now I have it... and my relatives insist on giving me writing implements and notebooks. And most of them wouldn't come within spitting distance of what I've been writing of late. The ones who do read my stuff know I don't need palm-sized sprial notebooks and glowing pens.

Posted January 14, 2005 2:44 PM by Tayefeth

Hey Priscilla: I was tempted to make T the same offer. If it happens, I'd be happy to be a proof-reader or whatever I could to help out.

MKK

Posted January 14, 2005 3:10 PM by Mary Kay

Alice Bentley:

Your "Two Step process to getting published" is correct, so far as it goes, but I believe that Robert A. Heinlein's other 3 parts of the 5-step process are also essential.

Philip K. Dick's Oppressively Real Guide to Reality Not Being Real.

I will buy anything written by or edited by Patrick or Teresa, whatever the title.

If Heinlein bought the Moon, Bradbury owns Mars, Vonnegut owns Titan, Clarke owns Europa, and Varley owns Pluto, whom do the Galactic Overlords approach as as agent for the complete package?

To me, some of the attack on G. David Brin (even in jest) is ad hominem. What is the literary or political critique?

I love this thread; thanks to Neil Gaiman and Teresa.

*** relurk ***

Posted January 14, 2005 3:57 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

I, too, like "Oppressively Real" better for the proposed book; I used "Unpleasant Truth" for my hypothetical series because it seemed kid-friendly, both in terms of having few syllables than "Oppressively" and of being (as Madeleine Robins noticed) vaguely reminiscent of Lemony Snicket (in a wholly no-plagiarism-intended way, of course).

Of course, in case it wasn't clear, I am not actually in favor of mercilessly crushing the dreams of youth. Not that bracing them up with a healthy sense of challenge would be such a bad idea.

Posted January 14, 2005 4:17 PM by S. Dawson

Strangely enough, I just finished reading On Writing Science Fiction: The Editors Strike Back. The format is excellent: a chapter or two on certain problems, followed by a guaranteed-first-published-SF-story-accepted-by-Asimov's,
then some authorial comments on the story and further criticism/explanations of what works and what might be improved. Two authors of particular note: Barry Longyear and Sharon Farber.

It also contains all the usual soothing material on how to produce a clear ms., although it is clearly from the dinosaur days of typewriters. Even so, the principles are explained as well as the rules, so any half-clever slushpile addict should be able to extrapolate into a readable submission. To bring it fully up to date, about two chapters of this stuff should be rewritten.

Posted January 14, 2005 4:17 PM by -dsr-

The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing. Oh, that would be marvelous. Something written to the same audience as the "Tough Love for New Writers" panel at Worldcon -- what was Gavin Grant's advice to new writers? I think I remember it being something like "Write. Don't get published. And die." Which, as he said, is really quite manageable.

I think the trick in dealing with submitting, for me at least, lies in not thinking of the submissions as actual writing. Just -- byproducts of non-standard brain organization, or something of the sort. Every so often said byproducts stack up and I go through and send some of these pieces of paper off someplace, and then they send back another piece of paper that says they're not interested in them, which I make a note of in my database before sending the pieces of paper off someplace new. (Some of them even say nice things about the byproducts, which is always rather pleasant, if strange. They're just byproducts, after all. Not stories at all. Thinking of them as stories makes the rejections mean something, and I couldn't be having that.)

Posted January 14, 2005 4:57 PM by G. Jules

We definitely need The Oppressively Real Guide To Life Under The Bush Administration

Posted January 14, 2005 6:23 PM by Jon H

Re: "Just make sure you read Alexander Jablokov's A Deeper Sea, as an antidote."

How does _A Deeper Sea_ compare to _Carve the Sky_?

Posted January 14, 2005 6:32 PM by Brad DeLong

Just to say that I hope you write it, under whatever title, on whatever topic. Making Book is still great, and I still want more. As for

Alternately, I could just keep working at editing books. After all, it’s my job.

To acknowledge Beth's comment, which I hope doesn't render this one completely superfluous--I'll give up my pony, too. I'll have a harder time coping if you let Making Light slide a bit, but I'll grit and bear it.

Posted January 14, 2005 7:53 PM by Dan Hoey

How does _A Deeper Sea_ compare to _Carve the Sky_?
A Deeper Sea is a lot bleaker than Carve the Sky.
I guess it didn't really fit my mood at the time I read it but I found some of the protagonists a bit too alien (the ones living in water) and the way they became protagonists left me cold.
Still a good read.
Carve the Sky is one of my alltime favorites.

Posted January 14, 2005 7:55 PM by Andreas

Who or what is "Lemony Snicket"?

Posted January 14, 2005 8:58 PM by Charlie Stross

"Lemony Snicket" is the pseudonymous author of a series of children's books called (Series title) "A Series of Unfortunate Events." Slender hardcovers, dealing with A Series of Unfortunate Events.

Posted January 14, 2005 9:21 PM by James D. Macdonald

Lemony Snicket is also the pseudonym of Daniel Handler, who was referred to upthread.

Posted January 14, 2005 9:54 PM by Kate Nepveu

Gah! http://forums.writersweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=3595&start=45

Posted January 14, 2005 10:10 PM by Dave Kuzminski, Preditors and Editors

[L]et me state that I will buy any book Teresa chooses to write, even if it's A Consolidated History of Feces.

Xopher, I think I'd prefer A History of Consolidated Feces, which would of course be an impeccably-researched tome about how to get your sh*t together.

Posted January 14, 2005 10:13 PM by Jordin Kare

Jordin, are you sure you aren't thinking of The Origin of Feces by Billy Rubin?

Posted January 14, 2005 10:25 PM by Andy Perrin

Dunno if you've seen Neil's blog lately, Teresa, but he was discussing this thread, and he said, "She must write this book. The world needs it."

Hey, are you gonna argue with Neil?

Posted January 15, 2005 1:26 AM by elise

G. Jules wrote:

Something written to the same audience as the "Tough Love for New Writers" panel at Worldcon -- what was Gavin Grant's advice to new writers? I think I remember it being something like "Write. Don't get published. And die." Which, as he said, is really quite manageable.

My notes suggest that this was part of a four part plan. The beauty of it is that the writer only needs to complete the first three steps. The hard part, seeing the decedent's body of work into print, is left for the late writer's friends and family.

As Grant pointed out, this method does sometimes work, though he didn't name examples.

As I recall, W.H. Auden got into a bit of trouble when he awarded the Yale Younger Poets Prize for 1947 to a writer he knew to be dead, when the intent of Yale University Press was to herald the beginnings of promising careers. Joan Murray's mother had approached him with the manuscript in person, and he liked it better than anything that had been sent in through proper channels. O, the uproar. And A Confederacy of Dunces was published seven years after John Kennedy Toole died. Decades later, it's still in print.

So I guess if I were writing the advice book, it would be called The Perversely Optimistic Guide to Writing and Publication.

Posted January 15, 2005 3:49 AM by Sarah Avery

While we're waiting for The Oppressively Real Guide ... to come along, let me put in a word for Mat Coward's Success ... and how to avoid it (TTA Press, 2004). This tells the stark truth about being a full-time freelance writer, and is crammed with grisly anecdotes which to outsiders will seem hilariously exaggerated, while Those Who Have Been There nod glumly.

Chapter titles:
* Quit Now, While You're Still Behind
* Save Time, Fail From The Start
* Editors and Other Enemies
* Bad Advice and Where To Find It
* 22 Things You Already Knew

Dave

Posted January 15, 2005 5:44 AM by Dave Langford

My notes suggest that this was part of a four part plan. The beauty of it is that the writer only needs to complete the first three steps. The hard part, seeing the decedent's body of work into print, is left for the late writer's friends and family.

As Grant pointed out, this method does sometimes work, though he didn't name examples.

John Kennedy Toole springs most immediately to mind. Example wise, that is.

Posted January 15, 2005 7:57 PM by Ulrika O'Brien

Ah, I see you got there eventually. Post in haste...

Posted January 15, 2005 7:59 PM by Ulrika O'Brien

My parents highly recommend these shoe grippers for ice; I haven't ordered any yet but am strongly contemplating it.

Posted January 15, 2005 9:02 PM by Kate Nepveu

Sorry, that should've gone under the open thread, obviously. I will repost there and in your copious free time TNH, feel free to delete.

Posted January 15, 2005 9:03 PM by Kate Nepveu

Here is my *complete* book of writing advice:
"How To Stop Procrastinating
1. Switch off the TV.
2. Disconnect your modem/ADSL.
3. Put on earplugs/loud music.
4. Get to work!
5. Produce at least one page before going to sleep.
6. Repeat.
The End."
Dave Sim, is that you?
Good advice, except for the loud music...but whatever works for you. As for me, if I tried to do a page a day, I'd end up in an institution before I finished my book. (I'm working on a graphic novel, and when I'm really cranking, I can do a page every two days)

Posted January 16, 2005 1:46 AM by Don MacDonald

The Oppressively Real Guide to Farming

Chapter 1:
You are a peasant. Live with it.

Chapter 2:
The successful farmer is the one who isn't broke yet.

Chapter 3:
Walmart can make millions without you. You can be replaced. They don't care.

Chapter 4:
You can't afford it.

The End

Posted January 16, 2005 4:41 AM by Dave Bell

From The Quagmatist's* Guide to Artistic Effort:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.
4. These are also the laws of thermodynamics, and they do not care how many blankets are pulled over your head.

*quag'-ma-tist, n. person who sees the obvious practicalities of the situation and is voluntarily stuck doing it anyway.

Posted January 16, 2005 5:00 AM by John M. Ford

Sarah et al.: I have never seen the appeal of A Confederacy of Dunces -- maybe I just know too many people like that in fandom. (The problem with being an epic jerk is that you're still a jerk?) I've wondered how much it gained from being discovered and published posthumously, in a sort of loudly-broadcast tragedy. I don't think O'Toole intended that sequence of events; it just doesn't have much future in it. I suppose it depends on whether one prefers to journey hopefully.

Posted January 16, 2005 9:24 AM by CHip

Briefly, because this is a logistics-intense day:

The reason why the book is called An Oppressively Real Guide to rather than Unpleasant Truths about is that focusing on the unpleasant facts will make the book less oppressively real. If you say you're giving the readers the unpleasant truths, they'll understand that somewhere out there are pleasanter ones. If instead you give them the straight dope, they'll see that while there are pleasanter truths, there aren't enough of them to go around.

I keep forgetting about the existence of The Fiction Editor, The Novel and The Novelist. I don't know why; I'd love to hear Thomas McCormack's thoughts on how publishing works.

Priscilla, did they really give you grief for not being sufficiently supportive to new writers? ("Supportive" = "Do something unwarranted for Meeeeeeeeee!") I thought Gavin and I did a very informative panel. Besides, Gavin was wonderful. He's even better at doing elegantly mournful explanations than Robert Silverberg is, and that's saying a great deal.

Posted January 16, 2005 1:59 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

And Jim, I can't believe I left out Follow the Money. It was second or third on my prioritized list.

Posted January 16, 2005 2:02 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

That panel at Worldcon was entertaining, even if I did end up leaving half way through because I couldn't find a seat that wasn't next to someone either wearing strong perfume or chewing very strong wintergreen sweets...

Posted January 16, 2005 5:28 PM by Julia Jones

And don't forget the chapter on Writer's Workshops: Threat or Menace?

About-writing books written by real writers are interesting as a view to how that author writes, but as a how-to they aren't very useful. It's too easy for a newbie to get caught up in the idea that what works for that author can and will work for you, too.

Posted January 16, 2005 7:32 PM by mythago

The Opressively Real Guide to Becoming an Adult

1. You Will Die
2. Injuries: Nature's Own Lay-Away Plan
3. No Matter how Good you Are, Someone Else is Better
4. You are Not a Protagonist
5. Spending Money: Goodbye!
6. Tomorrow Will Not be Any Different
7. You Will Die: The Good Part

Posted January 17, 2005 4:05 AM by Heresiarch

I was sent here via a fansite and Neil Gaiman's blog, and I've spent a very happy weekend trawling through all the publishing-related articles. I'm a little bit intimidated by the super-intelligence of everyone here, but there's a question I need to ask.

What is a query letter?

Is it simply a letter giving a very brief outline of one's story, and asking if the publisher would like the whole thing?

Or is it something you send out with a synopsis and the first three chapters of your story?

I have no idea.

I've also read conflicting opinions on what exactly 'no unsolicited mss' means. Does it mean 'don't send us anything at all, please' or does it mean 'we're happy for you to send synopsis+3 but please don't send completed mss'?

I'll umpteenth the idea that 'The Opressively Real...' guide should be written. Clueless people like me NEED it.

Posted January 17, 2005 5:55 AM by Madeline Kelly

I speak under correction, but in my experience:

A query letter is "I have written this (one-line description), these are my credits, enclosed is a one-page precis, do you want to see any more? PS here's a SASE for your reply."

"No unsolicited mss" means "do not send us mss. Read our list, make sure that what you've got fits it, send a query letter, and if we reply 'sounds interesting, send us (synopsis + 3, first 50pp, whatever)' then it isn't an unsolicited ms any more, is it?"

Posted January 17, 2005 7:52 AM by Dave Luckett

Dave basically has it right. On the surface, a good query letter does four things (the same things a good book proposal does): gives an idea of what the book is like; introduces the author and establishes his/her credibility; shows how the book fits into the publisher's list; and (for non-genre books) shows how the publisher might be able to promote the book. It sometimes also mentions similar books on the market ("like Lord of the Rings but with squid instead of hobbits") -- or the fact that there are no similar books on the market.

Less obviously, the query letter is a writing sample. Even a the book idea that fits the publisher's list perfectly is likely to be passed over if the query letter is badly written or just lame. The initial goal of the query letter is to get the publisher to want to read the manuscript.

Posted January 17, 2005 9:17 AM by Greg Ioannou

. . .and if we reply 'sounds interesting, send us (synopsis + 3, first 50pp, whatever)' then it isn't an unsolicited ms any more, is it?

Generally, it is.

It's extremely hard to tell from a query whether the book will be any good. There are many signs that indicate the contrary, but unless the description is completely out of court -- if it's nonfiction, or uses trademarked characters without permission, or has impossible conditions attached ("I want a certfied check for $100,000 before I send you the ms."), then one generally says "Yes, send the partial." (And yeah, I've seen all the cases described.)

This is not a solicitation. A solicitation is a specific request for a piece of work, and it usually includes a specific offer to buy. This takes place almost entirely in magazine writing, where the editor will contact someone with credentials to, say, write 2000 words on "Rommel at Waterloo."

Not everybody reads slush, for a variety of reasons. "No unsolicited mss." means that this particular market doesn't want to see anything that they didn't go to the author and ask to see. The best you can hope for is to get the partial back in its Manila of Despair. They're also entirely within their rights to simply trash it.

Lots of people assume that "Yes, we'll look at the partial" is a solicitation, and write SOLICITED MANUSCRIPT in big colorful letters on the envelope, along with elaborate reminders in the cover letter that this is, indeed and truly, from the land of Solicitations. (It's probably part of the folk belief that there are Double Secret Passwords that can be used to bypass all selection criteria.) The best that can be said of this practice is that the slush readers sigh, chuckle, or make more coffee at the sight, as fits their temperaments, and read it anyway.

Posted January 17, 2005 12:47 PM by John M. Ford

Greg Ioannou wrote:

"like Lord of the Rings but with squid instead of hobbits"

This has left me pondering whether poorly battered hobbits are rubbery or tender...

Posted January 17, 2005 1:40 PM by xeger

re: "Rommel at Waterloo"

The English center appeared on the verge of collapse. The last of the allied Dutch-Belgian troops had long since run away. Six hours of pounding had thinned the ranks of the red-coated squares.

Desperate, Wellington rode through the smoke and carnage, refusing to order retreat. "Night or the Prussians must come," he muttered. But would either come in time? The Prussian Marshall Blucher thought he was pregnant with an elephant--and by a French soldier! Blucher's chief-of-staff, Gneisenau, had done all he could to keep the Prussian army off the battlefield: no Pomeranian grenadiers were going to leave their bones in Belgium to cover the escape of a British army--not if he could help it.

The sun hung low in the sky, glowing blood-red through the trees and smoke. Then the soldiers on the bloody Waterloo battlefield heard a sound. It was a sound that had never been heard before. It was like, but not like the chuff-chuff of steam engines. It was like, but not like the clatter-clatter of textile machinery. It was a deeper sound, a more metallic sound, a roaring sound...

Posted January 17, 2005 1:45 PM by Brad DeLong

'...one generally says "Yes, send the partial."

...

This is not a solicitation. '

Then places that don't take unsolicited but say "Send the partial" anyway do read unsolicited? Or they don't, but they've just lied to the author, and the extra effort only means they'll be rejected later (100% guaranteed rather than 99%)?

I'm horribly confused.

I've seen places that say no unsolicited Mss., and ones that say no unsolicited queries.

Posted January 17, 2005 2:25 PM by Lenora Rose

Brad DeLong, xeger, and Greg Ioannou:

"... and in that infernal engine was what appeared to be the young Prince Harry, and a number of suckered and tenticular creatures, one of whom clutched a curiously glowing golden ring..."

Posted January 17, 2005 2:39 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

Madeline: Adding to the comments from John M. Ford (who read slush professionally), I suspect (from bits that have been dropped on this blog over the years) that query letters may not be called for in many cases; you may be better off researching, which may save energy and will certainly save time and a stamp. Tor, for instance, states and comments on submission requirements in the middle of its FAQ page. (I mention Tor because I remembered it being mentioned and have just checked; you should see how much other publishers have to say.)

Brad: I take it that's Rommel-at-Waterloo as rendered by Lionel Fanthorpe....

Posted January 17, 2005 2:41 PM by CHip

John: that's very confusing. Some places that say they don't read unsolicited ms do invite queries. If they then say send along the ms,you do. But now the ms has to have a new name, doesn't it? It's name can't be "unsolicited" now, because someone has agreed in principle to read it eventually -- but you're saying it's name is not "solicited" either.

On the other hand, if "we don't read unsolicited ms" also means " we don't read unsolicited ms even after a positive response to a query because it's still unsolicited," that would explain what has happened to me at multiple venues (I'm not talking about rejection).

Posted January 17, 2005 3:46 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

John M. Ford wrote:
It's extremely hard to tell from a query whether the book will be any good. There are many signs that indicate the contrary, but unless the description is completely out of court -- if it's nonfiction, or uses trademarked characters without permission, or has impossible conditions attached ("I want a certfied check for $100,000 before I send you the ms."), then one generally says "Yes, send the partial."

Argh. Having sent out twenty query letters to agents in my genre which made none of those mistakes, and having gotten back only one "Yes, send the partial," I find that somewhat discouraging. Makes me wonder whether my query somehow came off sounding insane or illiterate without my knowing it.

(Another one of those writer self-delusions, I suppose. But it does get frustrating.)

Posted January 17, 2005 4:53 PM by Steve Eley

Massive sarcasm below

John M. Ford ::: (view all by) ::: January 16, 2005, 05:00 AM: \
From The Quagmatist's* Guide to Artistic Effort:

1. You can't win.
2. You can't break even.
3. You can't get out of the game.
4. These are also the laws of thermodynamics, and they do not care how many blankets are pulled over your head.

*quag'-ma-tist, n. person who sees the obvious practicalities of the situation and is voluntarily stuck doing it anyway

The world is full of people like the Schmuck, to whom "science" involves "scientific method," which they associate with the Rhythm Method, with is BIRTH CONTROL and birth control is ANATHEMA to them, if God meant you to not have children you should be celibate and sterile or you are meant by God to have the blessings that are children, besides the Rhythm Method doesn't work and neither does the Scientific Method and thermodynamics involves statistics and God Does Not Play Dice with the Universe....

Posted January 17, 2005 7:57 PM by Paula Lieberman

Teresa said,

A phenomenal number of articles about how publishing works are written by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. This is partly because writing about writing, or writing about publishing, is what wanna-be authors do when they’ve given up on writing, but don’t yet want to admit it.

I know I’m late with this, but I’ve been away and nobody seems to have mentioned it. The above is true of writing on almost any topic, not just writing and publishing. I have about 200 technical books on my shelves right now awaiting my attention—and most of them will turn out to have very little merit, to be filled with facts that are plain wrong and advice that is just silly. Some are written by people who write books about software because they’ve given up on writing software; some are written by the authors of software that the books describe but that should never have seen the light of day; some are written by people who know better but can’t be bothered getting it right and some are written by people who just don’t have a clue. The sad thing is that they all got published.

Oh, while I’m here, I’d like to toss in my vote for Teresa to write The Oppressively Real Guide to Writing and Publishing. I would certainly buy it and I’m certain I’d enjoy reading it.

Posted January 18, 2005 9:30 AM by Greg Black

Xopher, I think I'd prefer A History of Consolidated Feces, which would of course be an impeccably-researched tome about how to get your sh*t together.

Why yes, Jordin, that was the pun I was referring to when I said "Please don't kill me."

Posted January 18, 2005 11:21 AM by Xopher

Ms. Kemnitzer said: If they then say send along the ms, you do. But now the ms has to have a new name, doesn't it? It's name can't be "unsolicited" now, because someone has agreed in principle to read it eventually -- but you're saying it's name is not "solicited" either.

Perhaps "requested" is the word we're looking for here?

Posted January 18, 2005 12:38 PM by Tracina

There's a poetry magazine out there that states, in their submission guidelines, not to send them any poems. They want a letter of inquiry only. My uncle sent them a letter in verse asking why that was so, and they bought it (for publication, I believe).

Yes, I'm proud of my uncle. He sings good, too.

Posted January 18, 2005 1:33 PM by Kip W

Kip W:

Yeah, I've had a query letter turned into a request to be expanded into a feature article, which earned roughly $2,000. I've also had a query letter result in a request for a feature, which then got cut to a 2-paragraph Letter to the Editor, for which they don't pay. The former seem to me to be an anomaly in the General Theory Of Publication; not enough to change the paradigm.

Steve Eley:

re: "whether my query somehow came off sounding insane or illiterate"

Does anyone know where to find the column on Worst Ever Query Letters, from roughly a decade ago in, maybe, The Writer? My wife and I lterally rolled on the floor laughing. One said, in crayon, (I paraphrase): "you don't need to pay me for these poems. I wrote them in the Institution."

Posted January 18, 2005 4:21 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

"With my last volition, I will remove my head and place it in your trophy rack. May the next one I grow serve you better."

But it may take several moltings before the head reaches full capacity.

Posted January 18, 2005 5:16 PM by nanpotnan

Lucy Kemnitzer wrote:

>> On the other hand, if "we don't read unsolicited ms" also means " we don't read unsolicited ms even after a positive response to a query because it's still unsolicited," that would explain what has happened to me at multiple venues (I'm not talking about rejection).

Okay, I'll bite. What are you talking about? Response times of a geological age?

Posted January 18, 2005 9:21 PM by JC

Dave Luckett said: A query letter is "I have written this (one-line description), these are my credits, enclosed is a one-page precis, do you want to see any more? PS here's a SASE for your reply."

Greg Ioannou said: Less obviously, the query letter is a writing sample. Even a the book idea that fits the publisher's list perfectly is likely to be passed over if the query letter is badly written or just lame. The initial goal of the query letter is to get the publisher to want to read the manuscript.

John M. Ford said: "No unsolicited mss." means that this particular market doesn't want to see anything that they didn't go to the author and ask to see. The best you can hope for is to get the partial back in its Manila of Despair.

Okay. I think, from what you've all said, that a query letter is the shortest of shortcuts for the publisher to get an idea of your writing style/standard.

The thing that confuses me is that the publisher could also get a sense of your writing standard by simply looking at the first few paragraphs of your submission (whether solicited or not).

The "send-out-query-letter, wait-for-response, send-out-partial" process seems to be very long-winded. It requires more work on the part of the publisher (reading query letter, wondering about asking for the partial, returning SASE with request/denial, and then possibly having to read the partial at a later date) and the writer (carefully composing the query letter, sending to publisher, waiting in anguish for response, and then either despair at being rejected or even more tension when the partial is sent out).

Just to display my cluelessness again, could anyone tell me if query letters are more of a non-fiction market thing? If they ARE used in the fiction market, how do they save time?

Posted January 19, 2005 4:57 AM by Madeline Kelly