Post is up for an hour and no comments. Hunh. What, is everyone actually working?

I guess I'll get this rolling by adding that the drive-by is by no means an exclusively American phenomenon. I can't think of anything wildly dysfunctional (except being seated between the kitchen and the door to the restrooms in an otherwise empty restaurant), but the amount of unsolicited advice received here in Germany has been significant. Some is heeded (people with v small children can cut to the front of the line in most public offices, but there aren't always signs to this effect), some is happily ignored and some are told off. Sometimes in German, sometimes in English, depending on just how uppity I'm feeling.

Posted February 25, 2005 10:30 AM by Doug

I learned that even before my firstborn was born: mothers are walking targets, and the sharpest sharp shooters are other mothers. I spent a long time being a baby-and-toddler daycare center caregiver, and the things I heard from those mothers about what other people had said to them were pretty harrowing, too. But then: every so often they'd say something pretty awful to each other or about each other to me, too.

I don't know if this is just because motherhood is so innately fraught, or if it is because we have that extra "blame the mother" thing going on from Freud and stuff.

Posted February 25, 2005 10:31 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer

TNH>There’s a universe of wildly dysfunctional interactions going on out there.

As a parent, let me just say: Yep.

Posted February 25, 2005 10:34 AM by Bob Oldendorf

It seems like there's some kind of primal pleasure to be derived from judging the parenting skills of others. And there are people out there indulging plenty. It's a hell's road paved with good intentions thing too. Some might say it's hard for you to criticize the phenomenon because these mother drive-by-ers have "good intentions"--the health or well being of a child, which as a non-parent, seems to me at times to be the most holy and sacred of bovines. That status sure does give a lot of protection to the behavior, I think.

Wow. What a mess. As a non-parent who is giving some consideration to the idea, it frightens me parents become the target of so much criticism. And not just criticism, but... really self-righteous criticism.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:01 AM by JeremyT

Anything attached to an absolute produces insanity.

Whether this is moral perfection or the idea of the infinite value of children (or the infinite significance of art, or....) people go kinda squirrelly.

Getting to "bad insecurity management" from "squirrelly" is a short trip.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:10 AM by Graydon

The "driving by" starts when you're pregnant, when perfect strangers want to come up to you in the subway and put their hands on your belly, offer unsolicited advice, tell you what sort of food you should be eating, make sure you're taking your vitamins, etc. These people doubtless believe they're being helpful, but they're not (helpful is my friend Annie, who used to regularly shame middle-aged men on the subway into giving up their seats to pregnant women).

Once you have the kid (or kids) there are plenty of people who want to tell you you're not doing it right (which is another way of saying they're doing it better). Parenthood is a chancy business; I am quite capable of working myself in a froth at my own inadequacy, I don't need anyone else pausing in their busy schedule to tell me I don't measure up.

I wonder if the drive-by moms know the effect they have on the kids of their victims? Julie, age five, told a woman she was BAD because she scolded me for something. Not the reaction she was hoping for, I think.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:16 AM by Madeleine Robins

Not for the first time, I find myself suffering from that very strange sensation of discovering that once again I am unknowingly treading the same footsteps as you, through all these variously unrelated sites. I keep expecting to see your coattails disappearing out the far door as I enter. I guess it's a small web after all. Either that, or you read the entire web (-:

As a single mom by choice, I've been the recipient of mother drive-bys from just about everyone. You learn to tune them out, or at least filter between the "meant to be helpful" versus the "meant to be hurtful" ones (and there's a lot of the latter, sad to say).

Actually, it was good practice for learning how to constructively deal with writing critiques (writer drive-bys?). Parenting and writing are similar in that they are both things about which we are incredibly emotionally invested and about which we are inherently insecure*, and thus easily prone to the sorts of "you've got it all wrong, let me show you the One True Way" advice and commentary.

(* or at least me. I don't presume to speak for anyone else)

Posted February 25, 2005 11:38 AM by Suzanne

Not only are people incredibly tactless, but the invisible peer pressure is immense. I almost never wear a hat, but I won't let my kids go to school hatless & gloveless in winter, for fear that I'll be hauled off by the DSS. (No matter that it may take 20 minutes to find a hat and unmatched pair of gloves, 'cause all the pairs were lost.) Most mother won't admit that they've spanked their kids, becuase let's face it: it works. BF Skinner knew the power of pain, and 'time-outs' are pretty laughable sometimes. Yeah, it shows kids that they can be bullied about by people bigger and stronger than them. Well, sorry, but that's what parenting is all about: I'm bigger and stronger and wiser and you respect my authority without endless discussion. And most people don't complain about my kids' behavior, so I guess it works.

Are we strict? I don't think so; certainly, many parents were think we're too lenient. Then again, there are plenty who think we're not strict enough. Psychologists would have me simultaneously give my children unconditional love and never say no to them, while disciplining them. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. When my kids whine, "Mommy, you're not my friend," I retort, "That's right. I'm your mother. It's not my job to be your friend." Friends let you get away with shit--like swearing--that your mother never would.

Will my kids turn out okay? No worse than any other fannish kid, I think. At least they are moderately civilized, which is all I can realistically hope for. Now in my dreams, they clean their rooms...

Posted February 25, 2005 11:48 AM by Lisa Hertel

Madeleine said:
"Julie, age five, told a woman she was BAD because she scolded me for something."

My daughter Fiona, now ten, tells my mother and my mother-in-law, the two worst offenders for drive bys in my life, to "stop being mean to my mother. I'll be just fine" or "I'll live."

This is something of an echo of what she hears from me.

"I forgot my gloves." - You'll live.

Because she will. I try to be a sane mother. Really hard.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:50 AM by LizT

Oh, man, you have no idea.

The only thing I have ever seen online that gets nastier than breastfeeding discussions on parenting sites is circumcision discussions on parenting sites.

I'm OK with anyone out there who's raising a kid having rituals that comfort them and make them feel safe. When they crave the extra reassurance and righteous glow that comes from abusing, shunning, belittling and humiliating people who don't share their exact ritual (because it's reasonably clear that no-one is trying to convince anyone else) it can be really scary.

I once saw a flamewar start at the suggestion that it wasn't self-evident that infant girls should have their ears pierced.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:51 AM by julia

I went to a parent-teacher interview at my daughter's elementary school some years back. The hallway was decorated with student artwork and writing, and although some was very good, I was surprised that "Ms. Doe," Sara's grade five teacher, had transcribed the stories verbatim, leaving in all the errors. When I asked why, Ms. Doe was indignant. Editing the students' work, she said, would "damage their self-esteem" and "stifle their creativity."

Stifling my own urge to ask her how long she'd been sniffing the Elmer's Glue in art class, I asked Ms. Doe if she thought my daughter was a timid little mouse, afraid to express herself for fear of a put-down. I reminded her about the class discussion they'd had about religion, where Sara had announced with a wicked grin, "We're heathens!"

Stifled creativity? I think not.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:52 AM by Jena Snyder

Something about opinions and assholes...

Seriously, we all have opinions about how to raise kids. Even those of us with no kids of our own, because we were raised once. When we see parents making the same mistakes (or even committing the same crimes) our parents made with us...well, it feels wrong not to speak up.

I realize you're not talking about outright abuse, but where to draw that line is something about which even reasonable people may disagree. Unreasonable people disagree even more! Does the guy who was outraged to see kids with no mittens feel the same way I do when I see a mother deliberately twist her 4-year-old's wrist while yelling at him to stop crying right now? I don't know.

I try not to say anything, I really do. But sometimes...

BTW, my friend Laura refers to "drive-by"ers collectively as "the Bad Mommy Brigade."

Posted February 25, 2005 11:52 AM by Xopher

Very few people have ever given me drive-by advice on parenting, even though (as it turns out), I've been the stay-at-home parent. And to be more specific about it, I don't believe a *father* has ever given me drive-by parenting advice. I think it's because dads are under the opinion that giving drive-by parental advice falls under the same category as "questioning the other guy's manhood," and unless you want to get caught in a throw-down, you pass on that drama. Also, dads are generally aware that society sees them as the more irresponsible parent, and one doesn't want to be the pot calling the kettle black.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:53 AM by John Scalzi

Last weekend I went to a children's museum with my partner and a pair of friends of ours and our friends' two small children.

While playing with the 5-year old member of the pack, the two of us interacting with some exhibit or other, a woman we didn't know marched right up and very snottily informed me that "You know, your being so overweight sets a very bad example for your child."

To which my five-year-old friend replied "That's not my mom."

The snotty woman retreated. I talked with my 5-year-old pal about the interaction and she said "Only rude people say stuff like that. I don't like rude people."

A wise little girl indeed.

Posted February 25, 2005 11:58 AM by hanne

I don't see anything surprising about this. Any subject on which people have strong opinions is going to lead to snippiness and defensive outrage/hurt on the part of the recipient. You see it with politics, if you hang out with politically-engaged people; you see it with XML syndication formats, if you hang out with XML syndication format-engaged people; and you see it with parenting, if you hang out with parents.

The only thing that makes it seem weird is that there seems to be some belief that parents (or, especially, mothers) should all be united in their interests rather than bitterly divided by ideology, the same way that Democrats and Republicans or RSSians and Atomists are.

Posted February 25, 2005 12:00 PM by Mike Kozlowski

Suzanne: I must be right behind you most of the time. It is a very, very small web.

I think your point about the incredible emotional investment and inherent insecurity making motherhood a ripe target for drive-bys is a valid one. And I do think it is specifically a motherhood phenomenon. Which isn't to say that dads don't have a special kind of guilt-trip reserved just for them, just that it's a different thing -- and seems to not be as socially acceptable.

Mothering drive-bys do start when you are visibly with child. For me, the question was always "you're not going back to work after the baby's born, are you?" The question was always asked as if I were a shrew for even pondering a return to the office. If I handled nuclear waste for a living, I might have given some thought to opting out. But I'm a writer/editor, for Scribner's sake, and it's not a particularly hazardous profession. (Physically, that is. Psychologically is a different thing.)

What always ticked me off was the no one ever asked my husband the same question. Nor do they every ask him who takes care of the kids while he's at work. Nor is his choice to work outside the home cause for scorn and derision, Nor is he ever singled out for handing off his spawn for someone else to raise. I, however, am a fair target for all of this. And have had to deal with all of this, almost constantly, from strangers, for the last four years.

Two ideas I'd like to toss out--

1. The hard-core feminist in me wants to blame backlash against women having more options now. For centuries, we've been conditioned to hate on each other if we make decisions that affect the status quo. I have no doubts that suffragettes caught crap from other women -- as did divorcees and ERA advocates. I don't know the root cause of this, but suspect that there are many causes, each linked. IMO.

2. The advice I give to anyone who is pondering kids is to find two books -- one that is a good guide (with pictures and charts) to all of the random illnesses and rashes that can infect a child; one is a "parenting" book whose advice you can live with. Toss everything else out. Trust your gut. And, no, you won't do it perfectly. There is no perfect.

(Note: this isn't to say that you should do things to your kid that are actively dangerous because your gut says its OK. Common sense should also be allowed some input.)

Also, parents -- moms especially -- should find a group of other moms who are of a like mind. That doesn't mean that everyone should agree on breastfeeding or co-sleeping, just that each mom is willing to accept the ideas of another. Which isn't to say that the same group of moms should keep their mouth shut when faced with a situation that sounds actively ill-advised (like, say, only giving breast milk and no solids until the kid is two). Just that everyone understands that everyone going to do the parenting thing a little differently and that, largely, the details don't matter that much.

As for the moms who thrive on drive-bys, they have their own little world where I hope they are happy. They don't need to receive any additional validation by having an effect in my little world. My little world, granted, isn't perfect, but I also don't expect it to be. It is life, not art, and you can't control every last variable.

Posted February 25, 2005 12:05 PM by Adrienne

My mantra is, "Not my kid, not my call." It doesn't cover actual abuse, but the "apple juice and no mittens" stuff over at Chez Miscarriage is right in there.

Madeleine and LizT, I really want kids like yours.

Posted February 25, 2005 12:09 PM by Mris

A heinous variant of this drive-by is the variety that is directed at the child in question. I used to get snippy comments from people who would opine that my parents' decision to have one child was tantamount to abuse (I'm not exaggerating - the mother of one boyfriend actually used the term "abused" to describe only children).

One woman who had just met me and was going through the litany of, "I don't know what to say to kids, so I'll ask her her age, what grade she is in school, and how many siblings she has," went from being friendly and inquiring to cold and nasty when she found out I had no sibs. Her exact quote was, "Oh, then you're a spoiled brat."

Being 12, and having had my fill of this kind of stuff, I shot back, "Well, you're rude. What's your excuse?"

Posted February 25, 2005 12:09 PM by Jill Smith

It's definitely a mileage variant situation - a mother on the beach at Coney Island got mad at me when I told her that the papers were reporting washed-up hypodermics because, you know, it wasn't my business if her kids had shoes on or not.

Posted February 25, 2005 12:14 PM by julia

Thanks very much for the pointer -- I'll pass this on to my wife, who's expecting in four weeks, and is already learning that some people won't wait until she's become a mother before they start criticizing her about it.

Posted February 25, 2005 12:29 PM by Steve Eley

It feels to me like they heard about Clinton's book, "It Takes a Village", and took the title as validation to interfere in other people's lives.

Kids are far more resilient than people give them credit. Do the best you can. 9 times out of 10, that's enough to get them to adulthood in some semblance of sanity.

Posted February 25, 2005 12:49 PM by Nabil

Criticisms from the Bad Mommy Brigade would have no effect if it weren't for our inherent worries that perhaps we are doing something wrong. The guys are in their twenties now and reassure us that we did just fine. They like who they are. They tell us they've heard some very weird tales from friends about other families' dysfunctions. I still wish I'd baked more chocolate chip cookies, though, and could undo some of the choices I made. But they're happy with their childhoods and themselves so maybe I should just let go of the if-onlys.

My favorite drive-by happened at a PTA luncheon. I'll be generous and say that perhaps one too many glasses of Chardonnay before lunch had freed Mrs. B from her inhibitions. On hearing that his nibs and I have different last names, she went into a tirade about people with different last names and how she assumes they aren't married and how it is absolutely terrible for people to have children out of wedlock, unfair to the children, failing society, and on and on. The look on my face must've been the one I use when I poke at a stink bug or millipede. You know the one, the oh-what-have-we-got-here look.

She asked, "Well, what do you think of that?"

I answered, "It's your problem, Nancy, not mine."

She spluttered and didn't talk to me for the rest of the meal. Oh, well!

Posted February 25, 2005 12:54 PM by Sal

One of the many reasons parenthood is not right for me is this "drive-by" phenomenon. Here's the thing; while I may grumble to myself later about parenting, the fact of the matter is IT's NONE OF MY BUSINESS!!! Really, the fact that (fpr example) someone's feeding their 1-year old french fries or doesn't affect my life one bit. I think it's probably a bad idea to get the kids started on fast food that early, I may rant to a friend later about how my parents both worked blah blah blah homemade meals woof woof bark bark, but I would never dream of approaching the parent in question. Not because every parent is different, every kid is different and there's no "perfect" way to parent (although all of this is true) but because it is RUDE.

The two exceptions to my general "leave the parents alone" policy have been :

1.) When parents thought the bookstore was a great place to drop off their young kids (bookstores may have an inviting children's section, but their staff is busy shelving books, not watching young ones.)

2.) Those awful parents at WizardCon many years ago who decided that a cafeteria table where people were eating was the proper place to change their infant's poopy diaper. The bathrooms, at least the ladies', were never crowded.

Sorry, if you abandon your kid in a public place or expose a hungry nerd to feces, you are more than deserving of a "Drive By".

Feeding your kid apple juice, late bedtimes, breastfeeding, not breastfeeding, SAHM, working outside the home, not having mittens (am I the only one who remebers having to wear mismatched socks on my hands after losing one too many pair of mittens?) being fat, mixing stripes and patterns, etc. are NONE OF MY - OR ANYONE ELSE'S - BEESWAX!

Posted February 25, 2005 12:56 PM by nerdycellist

Drive-bys don't stop when the kids grow up. In college, my brother studied theater and I studied English. My mother got lots of grief about our majors from her friends and colleagues. "How can you let them study such impractical subjects? Aren't you worried about them moving back in when they can't find jobs?" My mother would reply, "They're adults. I can't tell them what to do."

She had no end of fun around 2001, when all their computer science major kids moved back home after getting laid off. Meanwhile, her kids are actually making money at theater and writing and have always paid their own bills.

Success is always the best revenge.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:00 PM by Carrie

Jill - Would you believe, on the subject of only children, "drive-by hypothetical mothering-to-be"?

Me: "Well, we aren't trying for kids, but if we ever decide to, it'll be just one. That's all I think we can handle."

Other (A): "Oh, you can't have just one! The poor thing will be lonely..."

Other (B): "Oh, trust me, you won't stop at one. You'll want another, you wait and see."

Other (C): "Why aren't you trying for kids right now? You're nearly 30! You'll never feel ready, so you might as well jump in now before it's too late and you regret it."

We won't discuss (C). Well, I won't. Dumbschmuck.

In the case of (B) - what, kids are like potato chips? No one can eat just one?

And in the case of (A), my husband and I came from the two different sides of being one-of-two; I was the older sibling in my family, and he was the younger. We are selfishly reluctant to go through what our parents had to, what with constant referreeing of sibling rivalry, and we would also like to spare our hypothetical kid the stress, the inevitable injustices, the comparisons, etc. (Plus there's the negative-population-growth angle.

Does that mean we think that people who have more than one are inflicting trauma on their kids? Hell no. Nor do we think our hypothetical kid would necessarily thank us for the decision. But it is our decision, right? Some experiments you're allowed to make, because, face it, it's all experiments. You take those risks you feel you can afford, and, frankly, if the kid ends up feeling sad to have never had a sibling, that's not exactly life-scarring abuse.

"But they'll be lonely..." That's an argument that works for indoor cats, OK, not humans. And even with cats, mileage varies.

Oh, and speaking of which, there are drive-by pet owners. "Why aren't your cats fat? Do you starve them?" ... "Why do you scold your cat for being on the table? That's mean." ... "You mean you cook actual meat for your cat's regular meals? You're spoiling them!" ... "You walk them on a leash? You're trying to turn them into dogs or something?" ... At least with pets there isn't the niggling suspicion that if you're wrong the world will end. We love them to death, but drive-by pet owners just don't, at least for us, evoke the same sense of personal inadequacy and suspicions that we are quite possible causing the world to end that I suspect drive-by mothers cause y'all what've got actual human kids.

Even more so, ditto drive-by writing opinions from non-writers. Y'all get those? "Oh, you're writing a book? You should try to get [InsertNameHere] to publish it. They publish goot books." One day someone the name inserted there will be PunishAmerica, er, Publish, I mean, and not a judge in the country will convict me for what ensues.

And so it goes...

Posted February 25, 2005 1:01 PM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

And in the case of (A), my husband and I came from the two different sides of being one-of-two; I was the older sibling in my family, and he was the younger. We are selfishly reluctant to go through what our parents had to, what with constant referreeing of sibling rivalry, and we would also like to spare our hypothetical kid the stress, the inevitable injustices, the comparisons, etc. (Plus there's the negative-population-growth angle.

I was raised number four of six with all of the lost-in-the-middle-shuffle issues. Now, in my fifties, I am the oldest of three. His nibs was an only.

My family is less dysfunctional than most, but there are times when you'd think we were forty years younger than we are with the way we can push buttons or remember past slights. His nibs watches the family dynamics and says, "I'm so glad I was an only child."

Posted February 25, 2005 1:12 PM by Sal

I've been sending all of my friends to CM since the day that first post went up. That whole series has been very eye-opening to me regarding how very judgemental *I* am. I never even knew it! There I was, thinking uncharitable thoughts about even my own friends, and over issues that are really so insignificant, if you use just a grain of perspective. I guess, though, that parenting is such a high-stakes game that even small decisions take on disproportionate huge meaning. Like --

Not putting a hat on my daughter means I don't care if she's cold and dies of exposure, right? Not making sure she eats some of her broccoli at dinner tonight means I don't care if she dies at a young age of cancer and obesity-driven heart failure all at once.... right?

After this whole thing, though, I'm becoming a lot more comfortable with my own parenting practices. Let's face it, I don't even live up to my own ideals. Maybe it's time for me to reasses exactly where they came from in the first place.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:13 PM by Andrhia

I've been following that thread too. (I was unexpectedly but pleasantly surprised to see you take this thread up...two of my favourite blogs, but priorly unconnected in my mind.)

I personally make a distinction between the person who comments sight-unseen on a behaviour that has in no way affected them, and the person who is attempting to correct a person (who just happens to be a parent) who has breached some kind of societal etiquette or allowed their children to breach said etiquette.

The example above of the parents who changed poopy diapers on a public eating table when the women's bathroom (and presumably the mens) was uncrowded and undoubtedly a better venue for such activity--THAT warranted a drive-by, or a polite correction of some kind.

The person who gives you what-for for being unmarried, for choosing to adopt, for choosing to have twins implanted, for letting your kids read Edward Gorey's Gashleycrumb Tinies as their first alphabet book--THOSE PEOPLE are dispensing unwanted and unwarranted advice and should be subjected to cold-eyed basilisk stares that let them know that their own behaviour has violated acceptable bounds.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:31 PM by PiscusFiche

Do fathers ever have to deal with this? I don't think anyone ever told my father he was doing it wrong. Maybe the common assumption is that father's don't know what the hell they're doing anyway...

Posted February 25, 2005 1:33 PM by Christopher B. Wright

She spluttered and didn't talk to me for the rest of the meal. Oh, well!

Why the "Oh, well!"? Sounds like an ideal response to me!

At the other extreme of this kind of thing are the parents who think no one has any right to criticize their kids but them. Sorry, if your kid is screaming (and screaming and screaming, apparently just for the pure joy of it) and you don't care, I'm going to tell her to cut it out. Loudly and sternly. And if she cries that's your goddam problem.

Gee, etiquette says I should talk to you ("Please, your child is disturbing me. Could you ask her to be quiet?")? Tough. Etiquette says I shouldn't have to, because you should deal with it before it becomes a problem. Also, I've found that technique to be ineffective at best. Being yelled at (metaphorically) by a stranger is damn startling to the average kid, and parents approached in that fashion often act like you're doing a drive-by. No, I'm not, goddam it!

The difference is whether it IS my business. If your kid is driving me up the wall in the airport gate lounge, I have a right to speak up. Not "you're a bad parent for letting your kid run wild," but "please don't let your kid run wild right now, it's driving me crazy."

And actually, there are cases when an outright drive-by is, if not justified, at least excusable. The dad who used the stroller - with kid on board - to stop the subway doors from closing comes to mind. Is it permissible to speak up in that case? He didn't think so, even though the person who spoke up was the conductor.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:37 PM by Xopher

PiscusFiche, great minds.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:39 PM by Xopher

I am proud of the way my kids turned out!

Mother in law drive by - picked up a 3-4 year old on a 60 degree day in the south - "why doesn't this child have a t-shirt on? He/she will be cold!"

Of course at 54, she still asks me if I'm not cold when I go barefoot, as I do all the time!

Posted February 25, 2005 1:39 PM by Carrie's Mom

Xopher: Speaking as a parent, here, I'm with you all the way. If my child were throwing a fit, and a *stranger* came and told her to cut it out, it'd give a lot more weight to my explanation that she is being very rude and bothering other people. (I imagine some of it is delivery -- "Please be quiet, I can't hear my friend," in a stern voice is one thing, and "Stupid brat, STFU" is something else again.)

Of course, we also belong to the school of thought where you remove the tantruming child from the restaurant/store/whatever, anyhow. This isn't a parenting question to me at all, so much as a "how to honor the social contract" one.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:46 PM by Andrhia

Nicole: Jill - Would you believe, on the subject of only children, "drive-by hypothetical mothering-to-be"?

Oh, heck yes. My husband and I have always said that if we have kids (which is a big "if" and is subject to all its own drive-by wonders and snarky commentary), we would only have one. I have received similar comments on the inadvisability of having one (sure to be lonely/psychotic/spoiled) kid - even from people who know I am an only.

I also received your terribly un-helpful advice C.) from my doctor when I turned 30. I wasn't even DATING anyone at the time. I remember going out to my car, sitting there for a few minutes, saying, "Okay then," out loud, and then bursting into tears.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:47 PM by Jill Smith

I followed the link to the Things I am learning..." post, I laughed myself sick at "Why don't you stick a cork in that shriek hole?"

God, I'm laughing again just typing it.

As the SAHD, I rarely get drive-bys. But my mother-in-law laid one on my over Christmas when she asked me when we were going to cut my son's hair (he's three and he's never had a hair cut. He doesn't want one, so what's the big deal?)

I told her we would cut it when he wanted to have it cut. She said, in sarcastic tone: "Well! You sure are showing parental control!"

I wish I'd heard of "shriek holes" back then.

Posted February 25, 2005 1:48 PM by Harry Connolly

I'm not a Mom, but sometimes I just lose it. About the only drivebys I can recall making are these--the woman who was smoking right into her newborn's face, the woman right in front of me in a long line who was allowing her four year old to scream non-stop, and the one who was allowing her five year old to hit her and call her a "ho" in the grocery store. There are some things no civilized human should have to put up with in public.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:01 PM by Kiwi Carlisle

She said, in sarcastic tone: "Well! You sure are showing parental control!"

We thought it would be a nice innovation if one generation of this family knew how to pick their battles?

Posted February 25, 2005 2:02 PM by julia

Heh. My mom still gets the drive-bys, mostly about my brother (although maybe she just doesn't tell me about mine) "You're going to let him get married in the county courthouse?!" was the last one.

Some of my judgementalism went away after ranting that I didn't like the way someone was raising their kids. Mom gently reminded me that if I wanted a kid raised according to my specifications, I could have my own. (doesn't keep me from shuddering at the thought of my cousin's kid not having any books!)

However, Xopher is right on with one of my peeves - unruly kids in inappropriate venues. While I think privately it's probably a bad idea to take a three year old to a rated R movie, the greater sin is that I have to hear your three year old, and I will say something. Of course, I feel the same way about adults making noise in those venues as well.

Besides, has saying to the "offending" parent "If your children aren't wearing hats at all times, you are a lousy parent" ever worked? Other than whatever hood was attached to my coat, I don't recall ever wearing a hat. Between that and the sock mittens, it's a marvel that I didn't fall over dead of frostbite and parental neglect!

Posted February 25, 2005 2:12 PM by nerdycellist

Oy. The joys of parenthood. Actually, parenthood is great -- we've loved it. But yeah, drive-bys. Like my dad, when we decided to homeschool my daughter for a year. Said maybe she could just drop out at 12 and get married, like the Amish. Um, yeah, dad, my wife has a doctorate in theoretical physics and I run two businesses online programming and translating from German to English. We're prime candidates for illiterate children, thanks for the confidence, father o' mine.

Or when we went to Hungary and didn't have our two-year-old wear a hat regardless of weather when outside. Because this was summer! Old ladies would come up to us in the subway and lecture us for minutes at a time. I thought it was kind of funny, since my Hungarian wasn't too hot at the time. My wife, though (as a Hungarian) was not amused. For some reason she just doesn't see Budapest as the exotic foreign city that it obviously is...

But random people (not just old ladies in Budapest, one expects this of them) coming up to you and being as incredibly rude as these anecdotes? I must be leading a sheltered life.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:13 PM by Michael

Harry - Wow, that would have made me mad to spitting. I am sure that there are many aspects of child-rearing in which it is prudent to show "parental control". Hair length isn't exactly one of them. *snort*

A couple of folks in my husband's gaming group (D&D, mostly), they have two kids, a boy and a girl, neither of whom I think have ever had haircuts and both of which have it died lovely shades of blue and green. First time I came over, I mistook the boy for a girl, and my husband had to correct me. And, you know, that's fine. You are not obliged to make sure that the rest of the ininvolved world knows your child's gender. Does the doctor know he's a boy? Good! You're done.

Jill - I'm so sorry. I wish I could have been there to hug you, tell you "Wait right there a moment," then walk back into the office and punch your doctor in the mouth. There is a line between "This is a medical reality" and "I'm going to tell you what choice you should make given the medical reality," and people who cross it make me livid.

I don't do this often enough, but I would like to publically thank my mother for never pressuring me to have kids. Her attitude is that there is never a logically determined "right time" to have kids, it makes no rational sense to do it, so if you haven't gone that special sort of crazy that inspires you to procreate, no one has any right to tell you to do so. Plus, some of her siblings are now grandmothers, so her Doting On Grandchildren urge is fulfilled without my having to lift a finger; that's gotta help.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:15 PM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

Teresa and getupgrrl, two great bloggers who ought to be connected! I'm glad you linked there.

I'm a terrifying five weeks away from my due date, so of course I've been following those Chez Miscarriage threads with rapt attention. I'm probably naive, but I just can't imagine someone saying those things to me. Do they really? I mean, really?

Well, okay. My stepmother-in-law does. She and I have already had a heated argument about whether a baby who hasn't even been born yet, much less had the chance to misbehave, ought to be spanked. (Trying for middle ground, when she mentioned parents getting hotlined for sending their child to school with "a little bruise," I said that I hoped we could all agree that a spanking that left bruises had gone too far. Not at all, she told me, because "some children bruise very easily.")

And we had an appalling fight about sudden infant death syndrome in the middle of a Babies R Us store, with her telling me that I should have "mother's intuition" that tells me modern research recommendations for SIDS prevention are completely wrong. I was finally reduced to robotically repeating: "You raised your kids your way, and we're going to raise our kids our way."

But I thought it was just her. Is everyone going to give me that stuff once the Li'l Critter makes her appearance? Please say no.

I really don't understand what it is about childbirth and parenting choices that makes so many women elevate them to almost-religious significance. For example, the woman who posted on an online message board that her birth was "ruined" because her baby was taken out of her arms for ten minutes' worth of medical treatment. How did that get invested with so much importance that it could spoil the day her child was born? Is it hormonal?

Posted February 25, 2005 2:17 PM by Rivka

Only once of these top 3 times did I directly criticize a parent. I have a high threshhold for the right of a parent to make terribly bad decisions in their own household, up to the clear and present point of absolute child endangerment.

#3: the parents in a Hawaiian ice-smoking dolphin cult who, for utopian ideological reasons, never used the words "no", "don't", or "stop" to their singularly lunatic tantrum-throwing child who grabbed other kid's toys and hit those others.

#2: the late 1960s Berkeley commune which included a swollen-belly (kwashiorkor?) child who kept saying that he was hungry. "You can't be hungy," one of his mothers said. "You just had some Holy Bread." The commune fed homeless in Berkeley, but seemed to be damaging their own. I tried smuggling him a candy bar from my backpack. He screamed "white sugar!" turned pale, and ran away.

#1: the mothers whom, during the Altadena-Malibu fires a decade ago, which did roughly $1 billion damage, were pushing stroller and baby carriages uphill TOWARDS THE FIRE only a block away. Since, as the local member of Altadena Town Council, I'd had myself deputized by the fire marsahll, I pointed out that baby's lungs could not handle the smoke, and that I was empowered to arrest them. They went a few yards downhill, and started smoking joints and drinking beers while watching my neighbors' homes burn.

Up to that point, it is just Not My Business.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:20 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

I have to say that "you should have intuition that agrees with me" is one of the more bizarre things I've heard lately. One of the key things about intuition is that it's individual.

Sorry, Rivka, but it's true. Steel yourself now. Of course, that doesn't mean your SMIL isn't a nutbar. ("Some children bruise very easily" indeed! Yes, if your child is more fragile than other children you have to handle hir more carefully!)

Posted February 25, 2005 2:27 PM by Xopher

JvP, I think you should have reported #2 to the authorities. Not done a drive-by on the parents, no: they were clearly beyond reach. Just rescue the kid. Child Protective Services or whoever.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:34 PM by Xopher

To be fair, there are some other things going on with the weird things people say to parents (yeah, mainly mothers), besides meddlesome contemptuous self-righteousness.

The most important thing, I think, is the primal primate urge to interact with the baby-mom thing. Like the chimps who all have to touch the new baby chimp's head. One it's mostly verbal for us because we're mostly verbal, and it goes on forever because so does childhood for us.

Another thing is that baby rearing talk is an automatic conversation and you don't have to dream up a subject (hmm, the Sims ought to have little baby icons in the conversation bubbles).

And another thing -- well, I've gotten good advice, praise, and pleasant observation on a drive-by basis, too. A nice old lady waxed all nostalgic when I was at the bus stop with my firstborn all wrapped up on my chest in a snugli -- "carry him like that and he'll never leave you" (well, he is still mostly around at almost 26, but I think med school will change that next year) -- and then said that when I got caught outside when the sun was strong I could spread a handkerchief over his head to protect him.

That was nice. I still feel good remembering it.

And the person who gives you the wry, sympathetic, encouraging little glance when your four-year-old gives up the ghost in a grocery store because it's six-thirty and you just got off work and picked him up at day care, and it's a really loud and embarrassing meltdown: the one who says, "Yeah, it's such a hard time of day, isn't it?"

I try to be that one.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:34 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

If your kid is driving me up the wall in the airport gate lounge, I have a right to speak up. Not "you're a bad parent for letting your kid run wild," but "please don't let your kid run wild right now, it's driving me crazy."

...the greater sin is that I have to hear your three year old, and I will say something.

Because God forbid you should hear a sound you don't like.

Xopher, I've had my son (then two) throw a balls-out screaming tantrum at the airport ticketing counter. There was no way to both collect our tickets for our flight and stop his screaming. If you have some way I could have silenced his tantrum short of throttling him unconscious, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

The world has noisy things in it. Sometimes those noises are unavoidable and inconvenient. That's life.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:34 PM by Harry Connolly

Rivka: It happens to my spouse and I all of the time.

Hair-style is the big one. Dylan, who is ten, had a mohawk for a time and is now growing his hair long. We always respond with the choosing-our-battles line.

We also get sniped with: (a) lack o' church; (b) lack o' homophobia, and other purportedly criminal leftish indoctrination; (c) working mom/primary caretaker dad; and (d) lack o' the "right kind" of censorship, particularly regarding Dylan's choices in music.

And a fellow hockey-mom was appalled, and expressed that feeling at length, when she found out we are taking Dylan to see Green Day in May.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:46 PM by Kimberly

Interesting thread. I read that newsweek article a week ago or so, and posted it to our mom list. Most objected to the condescending tone. I thought the good part of the article was that it called for more social support for parenting, but nobody seems to notice that part. *pout*

Anyway, since I'm a natural-birth, co-sleeping, breastfeeding, work-outside-the-home, "let strangers raise my kids", never had a babysitter in the house, will yell, threaten to spank (and have on a few occasions) kind of mom -- I usually end up feeling uncomfortable in either camp of the Stay at home vs Work Full-time mommy wars.

But then I don't get that many drive-bys. Maybe people in PA are more polite than elsewhere? Or maybe it's because our family is asian and most of the drive-by brigade doesn't really care about crazy foreigners. That's more likely. It's the "inscrutable oriental" look that I give them.

2. The advice I give to anyone who is pondering kids is to find two books -- one that is a good guide (with pictures and charts) to all of the random illnesses and rashes that can infect a child; one is a "parenting" book whose advice you can live with.

Word!
For the first I have something called Caring for your child from birth to age five -- has symptoms, decision charts and everything. Very cool.
For number two -- I haven't really found one book, but The Good Enough Child is a good book about the whole "it's ok not to be perfect" thing. (I like The Baby Book by the Sears couple, but it can get preachy. I loathe the What to expect books.)

Posted February 25, 2005 2:51 PM by mayakda

This "only child" thing... I have to confess it passes me by. I mean, sure, single-child families are more common now than they were a generation or two back (although I suspect so are two-child families). Is there an assumption that, therefore, it must be some modish modern parenting fad, and therefore A Bad Idea?

But, really. Siblings are important, hmm? Kids need siblings to be raised right, else Dread Psychological Damage occurs? Sure, I'm fond of my brother, and it'd have been different growing up without him; I didn't have a sister, though, and maybe I'd have turned out less of an Arrogant Male if I had. Maybe my parents should have had three kids. But, I mean, having two brothers and no sisters is kind of the same, all that Evil Loneliness. So, four, so she could have had a sister too! It's only fair, else you're hurting the child so. Hmm. Four kids, ~37.5% chance of two of each. Better plan for six! Um.

Posted February 25, 2005 2:52 PM by Andrew Gray

There are drive by pet owners, at least when it comes to snakes.

I have been guilty, if guilty is the word, of telling people they need to get full-spectrum UV lights for thier lizards.

If they don't get full-spectrum UV, they die, so I don't think it really counts.

I have asked people if they have it, because it is one of the most overlooked/unknown aspects of keeping lizards.

TK

Posted February 25, 2005 2:55 PM by Terry Karney

the one who says, "Yeah, it's such a hard time of day, isn't it?"
I try to be that one.

Lucy, the more I read your posts, the more I like you. :)

Posted February 25, 2005 2:56 PM by mayakda

I'm a terrifying five weeks away from my due date

Rivka,
Congrats! And you'll be fine.
Mothering is so intense. It's taught me at least two things-- one is that I can't control everything, and that eventually, things change. (For example, one does actually get to sleep again after several months.)
:)

Posted February 25, 2005 3:04 PM by mayakda

Since part of the post responded to is mine, I'll toss back my 2 cents:

I paid $11 to see a movie, I don't want to hear your/your kid talking, screaming or tantrum-having. If that starts happening, I assume you can remove your self/your kid from the theatre. No one is required by law to go to the movies, and to continue a disruption is rude when it is easily avoidable (i.e. by either not bringing a drunk adult/shouty kid in the first place, or by removing the problem when it arises.)

I am not unsympathetic with parents of noisy children. They're kids; that's what they do. I don't admonish or glare balefully at them when someone has a candy-aisle meltdown or squeals with glee over the latest Barbie offering. If it bugs me, I'll move. But in my specific example, I was talking about paying to be in a place with the expectation that I will enjoy the entertainment with few distractions.

Incidentally, one of the best audiences I've watched a movie with was the 90% kid audience for Harry Potter II. The worst was the 40% adult viewing of Harry Potter I: the kids were great, but the adults behaved abominably!

Posted February 25, 2005 3:05 PM by nerdycellist

Adrienne: Suzanne: I must be right behind you most of the time. It is a very, very small web.

Maybe we're all just in a great big virtual conga line, snaking our way in beautiful chaos through all the intelligent sites on the web.

Posted February 25, 2005 3:08 PM by Suzanne

Xopher, I've had my son (then two) throw a balls-out screaming tantrum at the airport ticketing counter. There was no way to both collect our tickets for our flight and stop his screaming. If you have some way I could have silenced his tantrum short of throttling him unconscious, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

I'm tempted to respond "would throttling him unconscious have been so wrong?" But that would be nasty, and of course I don't really feel that way.

This is yet another reason I should interact directly with the child, which is what I was saying. Read my posts again. If you just can't deal with the kid because you don't have the arms of Kali and the attention of MultiVac, no one will be more sympathetic than me. I used to keep a handpuppet in my carryon, so that I could distract or amuse fussy children on planes if their parents were at the end of their rope. Didn't always work, but sometimes was a lifesaver.

In the case you describe, I might have tried to do something to help, might have offered to e.g. hold something while you dealt with the child etc., and certainly would not have complained. If you can't do anything you lose the obligation to do anything. Of course.

I was talking about parents who are just. sitting. there, whose philosophy seems to be that if they just ignore their kids, they become invisible and inaudible. These parents weren't being frazzled, or running out of hands or rope or whatever. They just didn't care that their children were disturbing others. That's not OK. Period.

Posted February 25, 2005 3:18 PM by Xopher

Nicole - thanks. I sent your hug back in time to my 30-year-old self. :-)

FWIW, after crying, I did drive around for a while, feeling kind of blank and hollow, and then called my best friend. She got plenty angry on my part and told me my doc was a jerk. Shortly after that appointment, I got a letter from doc saying she was leaving private practice and going into research. Probably a good idea.

Posted February 25, 2005 3:18 PM by Jill Smith

Do fathers ever have to deal with this? I don't think anyone ever told my father he was doing it wrong. Maybe the common assumption is that father's don't know what the hell they're doing anyway...

Another explanation might be found by analogy to the bumper sticker about people being more opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

It's more socially appropriate (or at least less inappropriate) for men to tell annoying people to get stuffed than it is for women to do the same. Particularly in the sort of world view that leads to thinking drive-bys are a good idea in the first place.

Posted February 25, 2005 3:27 PM by Chad Orzel

...the greater sin is that I have to hear your three year old, and I will say something.

Because God forbid you should hear a sound you don't like.

I don't mean to jump into an unpleasantness, but aren't there times and places that those of us who don't have children can go without being subjected to cranky children?

I'm thinking specifically of restaurants. Is it unreasonable for me to go to a restaurant (one with a bar) on a Friday night, and expect not to deal with (ie see and hear) children having fits and running around?

If I go to a family restaurant, I'm going to expect that there are going to be kids there, and expect that not all those kids are going to be well-behaved. But aren't there some times and places where I should be able to have an expectation of not having to listen to a toddler having a screaming fit?

Posted February 25, 2005 3:33 PM by Michelle

I've probably had many more drivebys than I remember, but the one that stands out most clearly is this: I was in the town centre, doing some shopping behind the twin buggy, and the twins were cranky (I think one or both had a cold); some women I didn't know behind me were commenting along the lines of "she must have a very hard time with those twins, poor thing!" Then I turned around and said "yes, and I've got a two-year-old with chicken pox at home too!" That shut them up...

Posted February 25, 2005 3:36 PM by Irina

I've had very few parenting drive-bys. Actually, none that I can remember. I think that being a large, tall, middle-aged man with a little kid in tow just silences a lot of that stuff, because lord knows I've done enough of the usual stupid things with my kid in public to push *somebody's* buttons.

I'll bet women get a lot more drive-bys than men, but that may be pure bullpucky. What do you think?

Posted February 25, 2005 3:40 PM by Richard

I was a witness to a mother-daughter subtextual-hypothetical drive-by-like conversation, on the way to a flea market in the back seat of their vehicle. The argument was about whether it is possible to own "nice things" (which we were on the way to the flea market to peruse) when you have children. At first it surprized me that it was the mother who was in favor of having both, while the daughter was convinced that the childern would destroy the antiques. I realized only later that the converstion wasn't about the practicality of owning antiques.

Posted February 25, 2005 3:41 PM by Dan R.

Ditto with Xopher on the difference between the frazzled parent and the one who simply isn't paying any attention. Well explained. :)

Michelle and cellist, I think you're right to expect that wise parents shouldn't bring ill-mannered children to adult venues -- be that Chris Rock's latest standup routine, a showing of Nightmare on Elm Street XVIII, or Chez Chang, the hottest Asian-French fusion restaurant in town. On the other hand, some parents have reported getting the evil eye on bringing well-behaved and older kids to these places. Augh.

Also, the line between well-behaved and not can be tricky. When my daughter was a pretty new infant, we were comfortable with taking her to a number of adult-type locales because we knew she'd sleep through the whole thing. I once got the major evil eye at the Hayden Planetarium for bringing my girl in, and the party in question very pointedly migrated to another set of seats. She was around 7 months old, and, yep, didn't make a single peep during the whole show. So... part of it is knowing your children and their tolerances.

Then one day we couldn't do that any more, and only found out the hard way, when we took her someplace she'd been fine a dozen times before and just was not fine THIS time, thank you. Does this mean we were wrong for bringing her to that restaurant, in the face of all of our prior experiences?

I guess me point is that parenting is such a guessing game, sometimes. Wouldn't it be great if all children behaved well all the time? Sure! I bet that would get rid of a lot of the drive-by nonsense, too. Part of the problem, of course, is that children have minds of their own. Minds that have ideas in them. Like "I WANT THAT COOKIE RIGHT NOW."

Posted February 25, 2005 3:55 PM by Andrhia

Here's my question. If kids are always to be restricted to kid-only venues, doesn't that make it harder for them to learn to behave in polite, adult company? *Mentally compares Pinoy society to US society*
Hm, actually, that explains a lot.
;P

Posted February 25, 2005 4:01 PM by mayakda

Terry, bless you for your "drive-bys". I bet that especially in the world of "exotic" pets there are pet owners who don't really know what they're getting into and need that kind of advice.

In my case, the woman wasn't actually afraid I was starving my cats. She just wanted them to be fat. Everytime she came over, it was like, "Why is Uno so skinny? I want him FAT. If he were mine I'd let him get FAT." Oh. My. Gods. Shut up and frickin' get your own cat. (This is also the same woman who didn't think I should ever tell the cat no.)

I try to live/let live when it comes to pets and kids, but, yes, when the dependent is actually being harmed by its guardian's practices, it's time to speak up. I'm not going to advocate that everyone drop the IAMs/Eukenuba/Purina/etc. and make home-cooked cat food--my cats' digestive needs are not all cats' digestive needs--but I'd probably get in the face of someone attempting to vegetarianize their cat or feed it chocolate.

Posted February 25, 2005 4:10 PM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

But I do suspect this is another area where fannish parents/kids are a little better off. I saw some of the "Mommy drive-bys" in the suburban areas where we've lived and raised our very fannish daughter. We never really fit in there, so we expected it. I've almost never seen that kind of behavior from fans (at least not about stuff that really doesn't matter, like what designer clothes is your kid wearing or how many after school activities is she doing).

Posted February 25, 2005 4:11 PM by Laurie Mann

Xopher:

I think that you're right, and I've felt guilty for 3 decades that I delegated this. I told the friend of one of the communards, who'd driven me and my girlfriend there from Pasadena to Berkeley, to intervene with her friend, and then report it to the authorities if no action was taken. I found myself at a seminar with that driver just a couple of weeks ago. The driver is now a well-respected professional Astronomer. I found myself unable to approach said person and ask what happened. I think I was wrong to duck my responsibility, however much I disrespected authority back in the reign of Nixon.

That event deepened my ambivalence about "The Counterculture." I've lived in 2 communes myself, and was 95% happy with their social pragmatism. I laughed, and laugh, at "got to get ourselves back to the gaa-aaa-aarden" neoluddites in airconditioned rooms listening to electronic synthesizers and electric guitars. I've had to adjust my Heinlein/Bertrand Russellesque thoughts on Free Love in the age of HIV, and long ago became a hard-line monogamist. Not insisting that others do so, you know, just what's right for my family. But those who put children at risk, well, got to draw the line.

Posted February 25, 2005 4:22 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

Here's my question. If kids are always to be restricted to kid-only venues, doesn't that make it harder for them to learn to behave in polite, adult company?

I don't think kids should be restricted to kids-only venues! There's such a thing as a "Family Restaurant" - to me that means adults and kids, and other mixed venues exist as well. When I go to them I expect kidness. If I can't deal with kidness I avoid them.

As far as polite adult company: yes, absolutely they should be exposed to it. When they're ready. And if they prove not to be ready they should be extracted at once: this provides feedback on their behavior. Framing the game as "how long do I get to stay in the grown-up space" seems like a good idea (non-parent here, just speculating). Maybe it's the Behaviorist in me (tried to wipe him out; no success).

But the key point is that polite adults in polite adult company don't let their kids turn the polite adult company into a kid's game. The kids cannot be allowed to take over, or it ceases to be polite adult company. So whether it's a good idea from the standpoint of raising the kid or not (parents' opinions trump mine on that), the parents have IMO an obligation to the other adults to see that their kids behave or leave.

I'm thinking mostly of nice quiet restaurants here. That sort of thing.

Posted February 25, 2005 4:41 PM by Xopher

I don't mean to jump into an unpleasantness, but aren't there times and places that those of us who don't have children can go without being subjected to cranky children?

I'm sorry, but no, there isn't. After the clueless parents of screaming toddlers take over all the restaurants, we'll begin piping the sounds of temper tantrums directly into your homes.

Xopher and nerdycellist, I understand that there are degrees of tantrums and parenting control. No one should ever make noise in a movie theater, IMO and parents should at least try to deal with their misbehaving kids.

What I was reacting to was the way you described the situations that justified drive-bys: Parents taking their kids to R movies. Parents "letting" their kids run wild. Parents who don't care.

It's an extension of the same thing that fuels the drive-bys discussed on that other blog. The difference between those unacceptable ones and the justifiable ones discussed over here is that those other people are objecting to inconsequential harm to the children. Over here the inconsequential harm is suffered by the complainer.

And those parents who ignore their kids? In my mind-blowingly humble experience, the vast majority of those parents have gone beyond the end of their rope and have fallen off. They don't have the tactics to control their kids, and they very likely don't have the help they need. They're worn out and can no longer function as parents.

It's emotional exhaustion that makes a parent take their kids into the presence of other adults and simply let go of their responsibilities.

Posted February 25, 2005 4:51 PM by Harry Connolly

Xopher:
As far as polite adult company: yes, absolutely they should be exposed to it. When they're ready. And if they prove not to be ready they should be extracted at once: this provides feedback on their behavior. Framing the game as "how long do I get to stay in the grown-up space" seems like a good idea (non-parent here, just speculating). Maybe it's the Behaviorist in me (tried to wipe him out; no success).

Wonderfully put, X. As my parenthood is still impending I don't have a lot of authority in this discussion, but what you described is exactly the strategy I intend to try.

Posted February 25, 2005 5:05 PM by Steve Eley

Then they should let go of their responsibilities by relinquishing custody of their children.

Posted February 25, 2005 5:05 PM by Xopher

My previous comment was to Harry, not Steve.

Posted February 25, 2005 5:06 PM by Xopher

Jill Smith: Shortly after that appointment, I got a letter from doc saying she was leaving private practice and going into research.

Which causes me to wonder whether she had had kids already (in a hurry?), thinking about the hours research might require, or had decided not to have kids and was playing out her decision on you -- which would make her an even worse GP, but people get MDs for all sorts of reasons many of which don't involve caring for people. The research-doctor in Wit is an extreme case but not a fiction; I've worked for his cousin.

Posted February 25, 2005 5:11 PM by CHip

I think the core issue here is that there are differences in perception of what is a parent/random person's duty in the social contract.

For instance, we have some parents who feel that shrieking by their children in libraries is acceptable behavior. Others politely remove their children when they take this tactic.

There are the above blog'd mentions of the people trying to give helpful advice "If you shift the sling to the other arm, you can carry him/her for longer" and those trying for hurtful advice "You're abusing your child by not having a sibling for them"

There is the issue of the perceived safety risk to the child. I've seen toddlers literally gnawing on power cords before (poor things, teething like crazy) whose parents screamed at me when I snatched the cable out of their child's mouth/hands. Other people view their children as the duty of anyone who is working at a particular location "Why don't you know where my child is?", "Well sir, I have to watch the register and the other customers". If you're in a public place and your child is at perceivable risk, I will do something about it, even if it brings a scold down on me.

The social contract is differently perceived by everyone. I think the best way to deal with these situations is to clearly communicate with people, and attempt to stay away from inflammatory language/expression (kind of like forum behavior).

I treat most children that are mobile as I would adults. If they are banging on the rescue cages or hissing at the terrified cats within, I simply go eye-level with them and ask them kindly stop the behavior. If they continue, I seek the parent or parents and re-iterate. If that continues I seek the site manager. Much the same way I would with a boor at a theatre giving a blow by blow commentary at the top of his/her lungs.

I think the WorldCon thread from last year was a good example on how variant the social contract is different depending on background and upbringing.
Bathing, vocal levels, perfumes, dress, personal space all are highly variant.

Just the rambling of someone who deals with a great cross section of humanity every weekend.

--Dru

Posted February 25, 2005 5:21 PM by Dru

I've gotten the only child criticisms, too, from the kid end, not from the parent end. I don't know why people are that hostile, except perhaps that we kill their small talk fodder. "And do you have any brothers or sisters?" "No." "Oh. So...how old aren't they? What don't they do?"

I have a hard time telling what's going to be the right "sympathetic adult stranger" thing in a difficult situation. I keep a bubble duck in my purse at all times. It was the most practical thing I packed for WorldCon (half the price of the ones they were selling in Boston), and I've gotten it out in the grocery store line more times than I can count. But I'm not sure how to handle it when I mean to convey sympathy without intervening or seeming condescending. Are there sympathetic lines that aren't likely to sound wrong when a kid is having a meltdown or whatever?

Posted February 25, 2005 5:22 PM by Mris

I have that same problem, Mris. I want to express sympathy but sometimes parents are MORTIFIED that anyone spoke to them at all, so it's unhelpful.

Sometimes I feel like shouting "Cut that out, you little brat! Do what your mother tells you!"

But I don't. I'm so self-restrained. I appear to have forgotten my "safe" words, unfortunately.

Posted February 25, 2005 5:34 PM by Xopher

Wow, I didn't know I was lonely, psychotic, and spoiled! I appreciated being able to spend time with my parents, not having siblings who hit me, and not having to worry about how my parents were going to get three kids through college instead of one.

All along, I thought I was a reasonable, thoughtful, happy person with a good work ethic! Gosh, how wrong I was! I never knew I was abused because I didn't have siblings to sit on me and pull my hair and break my toys and call me names!

(I did, however, practically share the siblings of various friends of mine, thus my great fondness for being functionally an only child.)

People are very peculiar.

Posted February 25, 2005 5:55 PM by Mel

Wow. Lots of comments I could make, but I'll try to restrict myself. I think parenting is the one thing where everyone has an opinion - after all, most of us _had_ parents - but all parents know that in some ways, we're screwing up. It's a job that is fundamentally impossible to get right.

A few scattered pieces of advice:

- You will get drivebys, even Dads will. Be prepared. Perfect the look that says "volunteering to be axe-murdered, are we?" You know, the one you use on the prosletyzers at your door.

- You will feel like you screw up sometimes. Kids are more robust than you think. Just try not to do it again. (I'm assuming you won't do hideous things, like strapping your child to the roof rack or something.)

- Be prepared to leave adult venues. Sometimes it's the only way. Most restaurants are cool with "I'm sorry, can I have the check and our meals packed to go?" when faced with a screaming child.

- Other people's kids will bother you less. Tired kids in restaurants just don't bother me anymore.

- There will be a point where you decide to "drive-by" yourself. For me, it was watching a ten year old pick out GTA:San Andreas to be purchased by his mom. I didn't tell her she was a bad parent, but I did explain what the ESRB rating was.

The flip side of this is not to be too afraid to give compliments. I still remember the look on one families face when I told the five-year old "thanks for being such a good example for my son."

Posted February 25, 2005 5:57 PM by Hugh Sider

(I'm assuming you won't do hideous things, like strapping your child to the roof rack or something.)

You mean...they're not supposed to strap you to the roof rack?

That explains the dirty looks my parents used to get...I think my mom's got some 'splaining to do.

Posted February 25, 2005 6:03 PM by Xopher

Xopher -

The puppet on long flights? Is brilliant! I feel like a dummy for not thinking of it.

Harry -

I do think I understand you and you are completely and totally right about the relationship between my peeves and the logic which leads to drive-bys. Maybe I can clarify a little? I'd hate to be lumped in with all of those mitten harpies:

The movie in question is "Red Dragon", which concerns a cannibalistic serial killer - a sequel to the well-known film involving cannibalism, serial killers, and lotion.

What happens: Consisten and terrified screaming during scary parts.

The first thing that goes through my hind-brain is "Argh! Noise! Movie interrupted!! HATE!!!"
After a split second, I notice it's a kid probably around 4 or 5 years old. Another part of my brain feels ashamed that I am directing "hate" at a kid who is responding appropriately. Yet another part of my brain formulates a justification: "what's wrong with his parents, exposing him to this kind of thing!"

The third component is the "drive by" one - it's none of my business, and it is entirely false, but it doesn't make the first any less legitimate.

With people criticizing how long a child sleeps in the same bed with a parent, or whether or not mom breastfeeds, where is that hind-brain response in the critic?

I do think this "you're screwing up - we're all going to die!" concept in parenting is directed mostly at moms. There was just an academic study I read about in the LA Times last month stating that "toddlers with mothers who work outside the home" suffered certain minor developmental delays due to "instability in the household". While I understand instability is undesirable, I found it interesting (and infuriating) that every mention was made of mothers, and none about fathers. I thought we had gotten out of those idiot assumptions years ago.

Socially, maybe the compulsion to criticize mothers for minor deviations in "accepted" parenting practices is related to the consistent criticism - from other women as well as The Media - about women's bodies: If we're thin, we're anorexic, if fat, we must be slothful overeaters, we're so much prettier when we smile, ad nauseum.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to get into an argument about parenting, since I know bugger all about it. :-)

Posted February 25, 2005 6:07 PM by nerdycellist

I still regret one time where I didn't speak up. I ran a weekly film program while in college for no money, which meant I spent a lot of time in various libraries going through film catalogs to see what was available. I remember sitting in the Seattle Public Library going through the suppliment to the film catalog when I noticed a woman and her son at the next table. She was blond, had a German accent, and with the benefits of hindsight looked like the actress who starred in "Ilsa, She-Warden of the SS." Her son was next to her, and with the benefits of hindsight he looked like a ten-year-old Harry Potter.

She was talking to him at a pitch now associated with folks in a bad cell reception area, or perhaps that used while talking to the partially deaf. "No, you've seen that already. That's stupid. I can't believe how stupid you are. Look around the library--none of the children here are as stupid as you. If you can't make a better decision we're going to go home now." And so on.

I still wish I'd told her off. Or hit her on the head with a illustrated history of the Civil War by Matthew Brady...

Posted February 25, 2005 6:29 PM by Bruce E. Durocher II

Long thread, several comments.

I knew when I was 13 that I didn't want kids of my own, so I try to keep comments to a minimum. The most recent was actually to a kid holding place in line at the grocery store. He was yelling and stomping and then pointed out a woman to me and said "That's my mother." I said "Better her than me."

My half-Mexican cousins had pierced ears right after birth and I was always extremely jealous. I didn't get mine done until I was in my 20s and I've had to have them repierced after each long hospitalization.

I wouldn't have minded being an only child. If I didn't have a younger brother who was shy and didn't handle change well, I would have been free to leave my family much earlier.

Posted February 25, 2005 6:31 PM by Marilee

I don't see anything surprising about this. Any subject on which people have strong opinions is going to lead to snippiness and defensive outrage/hurt on the part of the recipient. You see it with politics, if you hang out with politically-engaged people; you see it with XML syndication formats, if you hang out with XML syndication format-engaged people; and you see it with parenting, if you hang out with parents.

It may be that all of these topics are those in which people can be bothered by receiving advise. However, they differ hugely in the social norms about *giving* advice, especially unsolicited. For example, I would often tread very lightly when the conversation with folks I don't really know drifts toward politics, because I have strong feelings, am not necessarily respectful of those whose opinions take a markedly different lean, and [note!] know that political rudeness (or even combative discussion) in a polite social situation is not acceptable. However, it seems that there is no parallel social norm against telling somebody that their childrearing philosophy is suboptimal (read: misguided or even dangerous) just because it differs from your own.

Somehow we understand that people can have different political stances, but there's a feeling that there is only one right way of handling parenthood. And that it's not only not impolite for me to educate you as to the "right" approach, but somehow imperative that I do so.

Very different.

Posted February 25, 2005 6:34 PM by acm

As the youngest of four, with three older brothers, all I can say about the single vs. multiple kid thing is: siblings are no panacea for loneliness.

And as a non-parent, I try not to say much about other people's kids, even when the parents are friends of mine. I pretty much abide by the general policy others have articulated about the imminent danger vs. annoying behavior distinction, and try to be as sympathetic as possible. The only times I've found myself genuinely angry at kids' behavior was when they were being obnoxiously rude to their parents. Not normal kid sass, but an utter lack of respect. And of course, parents who allow that -- shouldn't.

Posted February 25, 2005 6:45 PM by Leslie

"- You will get drivebys, even Dads will. Be prepared."

Well, and again -- have the dads here been given drive-by advice? I have only *very* rarely (maybe once or twice) and then never by men. I don't think it's in the father pathology to offer unsolicited advice; I think it's rather more in the father pathology to ask about someone else's kid as a pretense to brag on one's own ("you kid's doing soccer this year? That's great. You know, my Bobby's been the ace on his soccer team for the last three years.").

Posted February 25, 2005 7:57 PM by John Scalzi

I'm not exactly a stay-at-home dad, but my schedule (weekend overnights) has me taking care of the kids during the week. I haven't experienced much drive-by advice, but I have two responses when it happens:

1. "Thank you" (if there's any reason to be polite, such as that someone has noticed something that I actually hadn't); and

2. Outward silence and turning away, possibly punctuated with A Look, and inward repetition of the words I won't say in front of the kids ("go to hell" or "f*ck off", depending on just how heinous an offense has been committed).

So far, so good.

P.S. I hang in the playground with my kids, and it's not for purpose of picking up the moms there. Just a data point :-)

Posted February 25, 2005 7:57 PM by Bruce Adelsohn

Mayakda said:
or the first I have something called Caring for your child from birth to age five -- has symptoms, decision charts and everything. Very cool.
For number two -- I haven't really found one book, but The Good Enough Child is a good book about the whole "it's ok not to be perfect" thing. (I like The Baby Book by the Sears couple, but it can get preachy. I loathe the What to expect books.)

I love the *Caring* book. I would like one that makes it even simpler, however, and breaks everything down into three possible responses:
1) Some OTC remedy (Motrin, cough syrup, oatmeal baths) will work just fine.
2) Call your doctor because he/she is the only one who can handle this.
or
3) Call the CDC, burn all the sheets and let no one in your house again ever.
Sometimes, you just need someone to make the choices simple, especially at 3 a.m.
I agree with you on the parenting books, frankly. *What to Expect* is simply evil.

Lucy K: Some of the drive-by mothering I've gotten has been positive, too. Same scenario with the grocery, crabby kid and hairy cat fit. An older woman walked by and said "you're doing a great job, honey. It'll be OK." I nearly hugged her and bought her some ice cream.

Mris: What is a bubble duck? Sounds like something everyone should have in an emergency. As to what an outside adult can say when faced with a screaming child not their own? A silly face -- aimed at the kid, not the parent -- can be enough of a distraction that the kid stops screaming long enough to figure out who that wacky person is and if they can be convinced to make the face again. Also in this category are things like small hand magic (coin tricks and the like) and juggling balls. imo.

Posted February 25, 2005 8:03 PM by Adrienne

CHip - I don't have a lot of data points on my former doctor, but I do know she was a.) single and b.) wheelchair-bound/paraplegic. That doesn't necessarily mean she was childless, but I think she was. When she advised me that I'd better get on it if I was planning on having kids, it had that "I've read this in a medical journal" feel to it.

Mel - well geez! You didn't know you were a ticking time bomb because your parents only procreated once? Shame on you. Hie thee to a re-education camp.*

Funnily enough, now that people are having children later, only children are a much more common occurrence. Wonder where the "norm" will skew to in 10-20 years?

*Interestingly enough, I now have a stepbrother. He was 25 and I was 33 when we became members of the same family. We were both only children when his mom married my dad, and we now treat one another as a delightful joke of fate, identifying as only children - er, with (step)sibling.

Posted February 25, 2005 8:21 PM by Jill Smith

Oh - and Adrienne, I've found making silly faces at kids who are obviously on edge of a screaming meltdown (mouth going that funny rectangular shape, eyes narrowing, fists starting to clench) to be a wonderful trick. It seems to work less well if the kid's already committed to said meltdown!

Posted February 25, 2005 9:04 PM by Jill Smith

One of the most valuable parts of my childbirth training class was the last thing our teacher taught us. She had us practice wide smiles and repeat the phrase "Thank you so much for your advice! I'll take that under consideration." Works like a charm, especially because the delivery can be modulated to fit the circumstances.

That said, I think a drive-by is a different animal from busting out the Voice of Authority on misbehaving kids with inattentive or uncaring parents. The drive-by has a distinct overtone of malice, and usually involves criticism about something that is a debatable point anyway (breast vs. bottle, working vs. staying home, number of kids you have, whether you're planning to have them at all, etc.); the Voice of Authority is usually a response to something happening right then and there.

(I used the VoA myself on a kid last week -- he was roughhousing and slamming my two-year-old daughter's hand in a playhouse door, and his mother was not doing a thing about it. So I did. I don't think he'd ever heard anything quite like that before.)

Posted February 25, 2005 9:08 PM by Darice

Adrienne, a bubble duck is a small, hollow plastic duck with a built in bubble wand that can be unscrewed from its head. You unscrew the wand and blow bubbles and then screw it tight again and stick it back in your purse. No spills after almost a year of it. $1 each at our local independent toy store, though my pediatrician (-writer-mother-jewelry maker) best friend buys them by the case for even less.

As a bonus, the bubbles and bright yellow plastic ducky cheer many adults as well. And the ones we have come on yellow cords that can be hung around one's neck and left with small ones in dire circumstances.

Posted February 25, 2005 9:13 PM by Mris

nerdycellist, I understand completely.

Posted February 25, 2005 10:41 PM by Harry Connolly