I gotcher arrows of desire right here. Chariot's observing alternate-side parking.

Posted April 17, 2005 3:58 PM by John M. Ford

.jpg!

Posted April 17, 2005 4:04 PM by Marilee

...and was a ga-ar-den
Planted there...
In Brooklyn's green and pleasant land....

Posted April 17, 2005 4:04 PM by Jill Smith

And you know you'll be back out there doing more tomorrow. :)

Posted April 17, 2005 4:30 PM by Aconite

*whimper*

I won't be planting a garden this year.

Live it for me, dear!

Posted April 17, 2005 5:25 PM by Jean Dudley

bring me coffee and beer.

Why slow yourself down trying to handle two seperate beverages when you can try something like this:

B-to-the-E (BE), Budweiser's newest entry in a long line of innovative beers by Anheuser-Busch, is a distinctive new product for contemporary adults who are looking for the latest beverage to keep up with their highly social and fast-paced lifestyles (should included gardening here).

As the industry leader, Anheuser-Busch is the first major brewer to infuse beer with caffeine, guarana and ginseng. (I had to read this one twice, because I thought it said guana instead of guarana) :)

Posted April 17, 2005 5:53 PM by JamesG

I was offered a sample of "B to the E" and all I can say is that it's B to the S. I think some Anheuser executive must have been visiting Brazil and spilled some Guarana soda into his Brahma beer. Yum. (Brits who mix ginger ale with their beer may feel differently.)

If you want coffee with beer, try a nice taddy porter - lots of coffee notes, but no cafeine.

Posted April 17, 2005 6:14 PM by Larry Brennan

Good for you!! Teresa, I'll be staying with Lise the weekend of April 30. Might I come by and see the garden?

Posted April 17, 2005 7:15 PM by Kate Yule

Good, another reason to avoid Anheuser Busch products.

Guarana causes, urm, tummy troubles with me. Which has given me a great suspicion of all herbal/exotic/sports/etc. drinks. Just guarana but it's used in so many of them that I finally said, "what the hell" and stopped drinking them.

Posted April 17, 2005 9:12 PM by Paula Helm Murray

Happy is Teresa when all is green and she can potter in her garden. Shall I send along a case of arnica?

Our garden is terrifyingly verdant--as if it woke up last week and said, "Damn, it's been raining for months! What are we doing, hanging around here? Bust out all over, dammit!" We have lemons the side of a baby's head, and the birds-of-paradise and the irises and the calla lillies are having a turf war. I'm afraid to go out there for fear that I might not return...

Posted April 17, 2005 10:07 PM by Madeleine Robins

I bet it's a good exhausted you feel though.

All those Endophrins being released.....

Posted April 17, 2005 10:13 PM by Senseless

Coffee? Beer? How about some Absolut and Lemonade? A seven and seven? Bourbon old fashioned, with Maker's mark...?

No gardening here, yet. First order of spring cleaning, to get the old water-heater out of the cellar and out to the curb for the trash collectors...and then to take the wagon down to Scituate to collect at least 15 to 20 more stones for the completion of the little hobbit-sized stone wall I'm building in the back yard.

Sure to be a great conversation piece....

Posted April 17, 2005 10:41 PM by John Farrell

My hands are all over scratches and punctures from weeding the roses. Buff Beauty is flaunting big peach-tinted blossoms, Full Sail has many pale buds, and Ballerina is fighting the blue plumbago with its pink and white skirts of blooms. It's glorious.

Posted April 17, 2005 10:54 PM by Lucy Huntzinger

Oh good lord, child. You did what I did cleaning on Friday, you did.

But good on ya. I have found out that I and the young man may be free next weekend to muck out your garden some more.

So sez I...

Posted April 17, 2005 11:13 PM by claire eddy

Do chariots count as commercial vehicles? Because if they do, we're going to have to get that thing off my street and park it on one of the north/south avenues. It's all right during daytime, but at night they'll ticket for it.

Jill, part of one is planted. Today's big task was building a compost bin into the back corner fence, then removing to it the vast quantities of mulch that previously covered the back garden. Under the mulch was a uniform layer of landscaping fabric, much of which has been shaken out and folded up and deposited on top of the mulch.

I'm going to try something old-fashioned here: ASCII art. If it looks spazzy, put it into a non-proportionally-spaced font.

Top is north.

The Hs are the rear entryway, which leads down into the basement. The rows of Xs at the top are the rearmost area of the garden, next to the back alley. It's the highest area of the yard. The areas indicated by periods are paved -- the walkway that runs around the garden, and the porch right next to the house. The porch is the lowest area; there are stairs up to the walkway.

The gardenable areas are the big central square, the two side strips, and the rear area. The thing in the middle is a weeping cherry, currently in bloom. The thing at upper left is the new compost-catcher, and as shown is not to scale.

XX/XXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X/XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
/XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XX.............XX
XX..XXXXXXXXX..XX
XX..XXXXXXXXX..XX
XX..XXXXXXXXX..XX
XX..XXXX-XXXX..XX
XX..XXX-O-XXX..XX
XX..XXXX-XXXX..XX
XX..XXXXXXXXX..XX
XX..XXXXXXXXX..XX
XX..XXXXXXXXX..XX
==..=========..==
|...............|
|....HHHHHHH....|
|----HHHHHHH----|

The eastward (rightward) side-strip is planted in little blocks of different kinds of basil, separated by chile pepper plants. There's an additional block at the top that's planted in dill, and one at the bottom that's planted in salad burnet, Sanguisorba minor.

The basil's one of the most important things in the garden. I can get decent tomatoes if I'm willing to pay an arm and a leg for them, but the standard commercial dried basil you get in grocery stores is crap. If you grow and dry your own basils -- Genoese, cinnamon, and lemon are essential to the mix; don't use Thai -- then crumble them together, the result is so much better than commercial dried basil that you might as well call it by a different name.

Purple basil's pretty, but it's touchy and slow-growing. There's a reason most plants on this planet opted for green rather than purple.

The area at the rear will be devoted to tomatoes, though I'm thinking of planting a single row of nasturtiums at the edge where they'll hang down over the retaining wall. There'll be beans along the rear fence, and tall sunflowers on either side.

Assuming everything grows.

I keep trying to think of a way to work some rainbow chard into the overall design.

The center square is mostly ornamental. Toward the NNE I've put in red and yellow King Humbert cannas and a bunch of big spiky dahlias, and tomorrow will add some Asiatic and bicolored lilies plus the seeds for various suitable annuals. South of the cherry tree I have pencilled in some deep-pink City of Portland cannas, Oriental lilies, a Sarah Caldwell polyantha rose, maybe some pastel glads, additional daylilies around the tree, an elephant-ear caladium, and more seeds for suitable annuals.

The area already contains various rosebushes, a lot of chocolate and orange mint, a splotch of houttuynia, and more pachysandra and tradescantia virginia than I can find in me to love.

The westward side-strip is already occupied by a bunch of hybrid tea-roses that came with the place. Not liking them has enabled me to do some admirably strong-minded (but not terminal) pruning. I'll probably tuck various herbs into the spaces between them, put the rest of the glads along the fence they back onto, and maybe put some nasturtiums along the walkway edge.

I have no compunctions about crowding plants I don't like. Big leggy high-maintenance disease-prone non-self-cleaning hybrid teas, all ranged in a row directly underneath my pulley washline where they snag my sheets, are not going to get as much encouragement as a noisette or polyantha or hybrid rugosa.

Aconite: Very likely, assuming I can move. Today I kept going a couple of hours past the point where I stopped being able to get up off the ground unaided.

So sorry, Jean. What's happening this year?

Kate, of course you can. If time and circumstances permit, we might even fire up the barbecue.

Lucy, Mad, I envy you your climate. We're still getting revved.

Mad, you're making me nostalgic. I grew up around bird-of-paradise. Granny always had it. She had great taste in plants.

Did I remember to tell you that ponderosa lemons make great marmalade? In the latest batch, the one that was about 40% Sevilles and 60% ponderosas, they were almost as good as citrons.

Posted April 17, 2005 11:46 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

I've got my plants hardening off outside now.
When I'm done, I'll have a full flat of lettuce, plus basil, rosemary, oregano, thyme, mint. Peppers and tomatoes will come later.

I have a lot of legacy plants; an old rose I trellised last year, a lilac, etc. Out in the main yard we have a "dwarf orchard" around the edge of dwarf variety fruit and nut trees: pear, apple, chestnut, and a cherry tree that forgot it was a dwarf tree.

I keep trying blueberries and failing but we do have raspberries.

I don't have a lot of space. The one big thing I did that increased the yield of my garden was to go to garden boxes -- basically, 2X4s with preformed metal corners that they slide into. I have two four foot square boxes for the vegetable garden. With the boxes, I can fill the whole darn thing with peat moss and add just enough topsoil so that it doesn't all blow away. Plants love it.

Posted April 17, 2005 11:59 PM by Lisa Williams

*sends scotch and a hand massage*

I'm with the .jpg crew. *g*

Posted April 18, 2005 12:05 AM by elizabeth bear

We jackhammered the bottom of our swimming pool (which we never used for swimming, and constantly had to throw money and chemicals at) some years ago and filled it in (having 115 tons of dirt, in 25-ton installments, dumped on your front carport and moving every ton of it through a narrow side yard with a wheelbarrow is, ummm, an interesting experience), and have been slowly putting in beds of flowers and bulbs (and a laurel fig tree as the formerly-known-as-pool's centerpiece) to make it a garden/sanctuary. (The ground's close to fully settled by now, so I need to start putting in ramps and paths for Hilde's chair in the next year or two. And a pond.)

I used the narrow space between the north edge of the pool sidewalk and the block wall for a small vegetable garden. Since this gets full sun, except for partial shade from the tree, I found the first year that almost everything got blasted and burnt out by the Arizona summer sun hitting both directly and reflecting off the wall. I put up a number of white trellises this year to see if they'll break up some of the heat from the wall.

I've got tomatoes (Opalka and Brandywine), some mixed sweet pepper plants and a few Anchos, some Thai eggplants, burgundy okra, Dragon carrots, and Delicata squash. And a Reisenstraube tomato plant growing in a hanging pot (very, very slowly; supposedly it'll eventually produce hundreds of itsy-bitsy tomatoes, but at nearly three months, the seedling's still only about an inch high.)

(I recommend the Brandywine tomatoes, by the way. Vigorous, fast-growing, quite disease-resistant for an heirloom variety, and since they're not a hybrid variety, seeds can be harvested for the next year's planting.)

Posted April 18, 2005 12:28 AM by Bruce Arthurs

"We jackhammered the bottom of our swimming pool (which we never used for swimming, and constantly had to throw money and chemicals at...)"

Ah yes. I'm tempted to do the same. The worst of it is it was a nice hilly slope once, then a vinyl-sided pool, now a concrete monstrosity which nobody swims in and which costs upwards of $100/month to care for.

Posted April 18, 2005 1:33 AM by Linkmeister

I think the issue is whether the Brownies or the FDNY have the authority to ticket and tow chariots of fire. And you probably wouldn't want to be the person booting one.

Posted April 18, 2005 3:26 AM by John M. Ford

Was Sunday some planting holiday I was unaware of? Yesterday I purchased herbs to grow on the deck (living in a condo where you aren't allowed to grow food SUCKS!), but I'm so happy and already talk to them and want more!
Not only that but at least two of my friends in different parts of the country were planting yesterday as well.

Posted April 18, 2005 7:00 AM by Soli

My chives from last year, in my back-balcony herb box that I left out all winter, are alive again. Nothing else is, but the chives are sending up little bright green shoots. It's amazing how green green is, after there hasn't been any for a long time.

I'm not planting any basil out yet because we're still getting below freezing some nights.

Incidentally, rather than drying them, last autumn I stuffed all the basil and all the thyme into separate bottles when it started to get to the end of outside-growing time, and then filled the bottles with olive oil, and have been happily using them as flavoured oil all winter.

Posted April 18, 2005 8:00 AM by Jo Walton

It must have been something in the water this weekend.. I was out building clothesline poles and arbor fencing for grapevines while the wife spread out 1280 lbs. of topsoil and planted a van-load of flowers out front. Looks really nice.

Posted April 18, 2005 8:28 AM by Steve Thorn

Teresa: Today I kept going a couple of hours past the point where I stopped being able to get up off the ground unaided.

My sympathies. I did much the same, and spent the evening dealing with muscles in spasm. Today is Arnica Day. Because, you know, I have to get those foxgloves in...and transplant the columbines...and thin the daylillies... If anyone's in desperate need of daylillies (most seem to be 'Stella D'oro'), or would like to trade plants, please e-mail me. (Teresa, if you're looking for good homes for those excess spiderworts, I promise to treasure them.) The e-mail address given is real--just correct the anti-spam measure in c0m.

Regarding superior varieties of herbs: Thymus vulgaris 'Orange Balsam.' Heavenly.

Posted April 18, 2005 8:59 AM by Aconite

Spring has come to Ann Arbor, too!

This past weekend I also kept going a couple of hours past the point where I stopped being able to get up off the ground unaided. I pried bricks (oh so many bricks...more bricks than I ever realized could be there) out of our back patio where spousal-type will soon build a deck. We're going to move the bricks to the front walk.

The weekend before I became rose food, in pruning a fifty-year old and incredibly out-of-control rose hedge that came with the house when we bought it. Spouse won't go near her except when I really need help (with, say, the seven feet, eight feet, ten feet tall tendrils, or the branches that are three inches in diameter), because he's a bit concerned she might eat him...the sunburn from that effort is now peeling and the scratches are healing.

Oh! And now I'm in my office and after reading everyone's gardening stories, I want nothing so much as to go home and dig and dig and dig...

Posted April 18, 2005 9:43 AM by Kimberly

This is a wonderful time in South Florida, as soon it will get too hot and things will begin to wilt unless you pay LOTS of attention. But now...The French lavender and oregano smell heavenly (I use ground -creeping oregano as a weed suppresant in my flower beds and it works a treat!). The gardenia is bursting out all over, and the dwarf gladioli and the dinner plate dahlias are starting to make their appearance. The hibiscus are being hibiscus and the roses, which were severely pruned two months ago, are starting new growth everywhere. In the back garden, the tomatoes, green peppers, and assorted lettuces are already being harvested; and the zucchini will go in this week.
I too am a little sore, but my heavy backbreaking work came last month.

Posted April 18, 2005 9:54 AM by Emma

In Minnesota, my peaches and zone-marginal sweet cherries are in bloom. It's 71 today. Of course, that doesn't mean it won't snow yet in April. Or May.

Posted April 18, 2005 10:09 AM by shosh

Since it's on the Internet, it's true that the world's largest rosebush is in Tombstone, AZ, right?

http://www.aztriad.com/rosebush.html

Posted April 18, 2005 10:18 AM by fidelio

fidelio, that is WAY bigger than ours, but has had the benefit of better care, methinks. Ours was in a tangled shambles when we took possession. I can see, though, the potential for ours to look like that! Thanks for that link, as that gives me ideas as what to do with her, now. The great news is that the cuttings from our bush are incredibly hardy and take with no trouble at all, so in a few years she'll have children all over the yard.

Posted April 18, 2005 11:13 AM by Kimberly

Teresa, I did send you a jar of Miss Tolerance's Best Marmalade, didn't I? 70 percent Ponderosa lemons from our tree and 30 percent Meyer lemons.

I'm envying you your basil, the only plant I ever successfully nurtured from seed to leaf in NY; our garden gets very spotty sun, and last year's basil withered and died. I'd consider ditching the birds of paradise and callas and putting in herbs along that wall, except that I have absolutely no certainty that they'd actually take. We're on the cusp between the sunshine of the Mission and the fog of the western part of the city, and it's difficult to promise a plant that it will get all the sun it wants. In our apartment in NY the basil window faced south and got all the sun that was available, and it throve.

Saturday I did have the same =sort= of day, in terms of result (ie., not being able to move without assistance): cleaned out the refrigerator, the garage, painted the front door, etc. Spring nest clearing.

Posted April 18, 2005 11:28 AM by Madeleine Robins

Sigh. I wish I could grow edibles in my garden. Hoboken is too toxic, unfortunately. Even with imported soil over a thick plastic liner (which we have to keep our flowers from dying) it's not really safe. Chromium and like that.

Basil is best FRESH. Myself I used to make pesto during the fresh basil season and freeze it. Frozen pesto made with fresh basil is still way better than never-frozen pesto made with dried basil IMO. And you haven't lived until you've eaten a red sauce made with chopped fresh basil. Yum. Not to mention a spicy Thai chili sauce, which is good with tofu but I suppose you could make with meat. (Note: Thai sauce not Thai basil. I'm not sure why Teresa says Thai basil is no good but I trust her.)

Teresa, I know you know nasturtiums are edible (in my opinion also tasty). If you want to eat them I'd keep them away from the walkway, but you probably don't.

It's pear blossom season in Hoboken, which is so full of pear trees that they won't let you plant them any more for fear of a pandemic should they acquire a blight or parasite. They're at the snow-white stage now. Gradually they'll turn pale green, then...but I'll write that up on my LJ.

Posted April 18, 2005 11:39 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

Xopher, I love the Thai basil. (Here I make the assumption that the basil used in Thai restaurants is Thai basil. It will not surprise me to learn otherwise. Teresa, after all, was the one to clue me in on chicken broth in Hot and Sour Soup. Whodathunk?)

On the eating of flowers: avoid Daffodil bulbs. All my detective novels agree that they're poisonous. (BTW: The flowers that bloom in the Spring (tra la!) had nothing to do with the case.)

Posted April 18, 2005 12:15 PM by Andy Perrin

Kimberly, the rosebush in Tombstone is all the more impressive to me when I consider that it's in a desert, although at least down in Tombstone they probably don't have to worry about coldkill. I've heard a theory to the effect that the bush has sent a deep root down into an old flooded mine, which might help explain why it's managed to last so long. Apparently, the flowers are smaller than on a typical Lady Banksia, though.

Can you imagine the playhouse a bush like that would make for children?

Posted April 18, 2005 12:27 PM by fidelio

Thai basil no good? I don't think I caught Teresa's mention of that, and Google's not returning anything that seems relevant. Teresa, what do you dislike about it?

Does anyone have any experience with Vietnamese cilantro aka Rau Ram? Apparently its flavor is similar to cilantro/coriander, but it resists bolting. I've never been able to keep a coriander plant growing longer than about 3 weeks before it bolted, so an alternative would be most welcome.

Posted April 18, 2005 12:47 PM by Lexica

Sure, gardening is great fun until you find one of these in your yard. :) (j/k)

Havne't used arbnica much on muscle pain, but it is amazing on bruises.

Posted April 18, 2005 12:51 PM by mayakda

Rereading I see that she didn't actually say it was no good, just that you shouldn't put it in the mix when growing basil in your garden. There could be many other reasons for that.

Lexica, what's bolting?

Posted April 18, 2005 12:57 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

There could be many other reasons for that.

Ah hah. Makes sense, although I read it the same way you did initially.

Posted April 18, 2005 1:14 PM by Andy Perrin

Bolting is when a plant prematurely produces flowers and seeds. Cilantro is one of the most extreme bolters I've encountered - one day the plant will look fine, but 24 hours later it's far enough along in the flower-to-seed process that the leaves become unpleasantly bitter.

Hot weather is supposed to trigger it, as is stress. Since summer in Oakland isn't usually hot, I think stress must be the main culprit. My herbs need a therapist, I guess.

Posted April 18, 2005 1:28 PM by Lexica

Well, how often do you talk to them? I might also offer them a pillow to punch when they get frustrated.

Seriously, thanks for the explanation.

Posted April 18, 2005 2:43 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

Madeline: I have been in an urban Central Coast excessively shady, heavy-soil garden for coming up oin thirty years now (it has goitten shadier over the years partly because I planted fruit trees wherever there was sun), and here are my surefire recommendations:

Almost any salvia, never mind what the cultural notes say: they're all much more flexible than they get credit for.
Violets, and anything related to them, as long as you put deep barriers around v.odorata or you don't mind your whole garden being violets.
borage.
cineraria.
iris -- if you have a little light during the day, it doesn't have to be much.
mints.
nasturtium -- but in our area, you need to understand that it will become invasive (in the yard, they don't seem to take over the roadside)
I'd recommend vinca except that it is a pest.
Blueberries can handle a little shade.
parsley.
lovage.
greek oregano can tolerate a little shade.
I just got a gorgeos little plant called "claytonia" which is native.
roses can tolerate a little shade.
wisteria likes shady feet.
species fuscias mostly don't get fuschia mite.

Posted April 18, 2005 3:05 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Lexica, I think bolting in our area is more often caused by water irregularities than actual heat.

fidelio, the regular Lady Banks white rose has flowers about an inch wide, just as they describe it on the site. The white Lady Banks is the fragrant one, though the yellow is prettier. Also, many European deciduous plants have shorter lifespans where the winters are not cold, because they don't go dormant long enough and they get stressed from the lack of rest.

Soli, is it a condo rule that you can't put out a pot of cherry tomatoes?

Posted April 18, 2005 3:11 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Lucy, lots of condos have rules against growing "crops." My dad got busted for cultivating tomato plants when he lived in a condo. (Condo living was not a good choice for Dad - it brought out all of his libertarian/passive-aggressive traits - he left a Christmas wreath on the door for months just because he knew it bugged people and was against the rules).

Posted April 18, 2005 3:54 PM by Jill Smith

In that case, my aunt's bush is either not a Lady Banks, or is an sport--the flowers are in the 2+" range--still on the small side, but not teeninesy. I'm still amazed that the one is Tombstone is both so large and so old--I've seen plenty of old plantings here and there, but nothing that old that hasn't been badly nipped back at least a time or two.

Posted April 18, 2005 3:57 PM by fidelio

Xopher,

Can you grow a pot of basil in a window? I grow my basil and parsley in a planter box that I bring in over the winter, and, assuming I remember to water it (it gets put in a basement window), and assuming cats don't get into it, it does okay. I'd think it might do well enough in a pot indoors to give you fresh basil when you desired it.

Especially if it had good light and regular watering and not feline interference.

It's not the same as being able to grow it outside, but far better than nothing.

And I join the crowd in requesting that our hostess provide pictures of all the lovely growing things.

Posted April 18, 2005 3:57 PM by Michelle K

Andy Perrin: On the eating of flowers: avoid Daffodil bulbs. All my detective novels agree that they're poisonous. (BTW: The flowers that bloom in the Spring (tra la!) had nothing to do with the case.)

All parts of the daffodil are poisonous; it's why you can grow them even in mole-, goundhog- or deer-infested areas. The sap not only irritates skin (and eyes!), but will cause your other flowers to wilt in a vase, so you can't use them in arrangements. Kewl.

Lucy Kemnitzer, one friend of mine got around the "no-crops" rule by growing "ornamental" hot peppers, "ornamental" herbs ('Spicy Globe' and 'Purple Ruffles' basils, frex), and scarlet runner beans "for the flowers."

Posted April 18, 2005 4:07 PM by Aconite

John M. Ford:

"whether the Brownies or the FDNY have the authority to ticket and tow chariots of fire"

Alternate Side of the Via Dolorosa Parking is Suspended.

Teresa:

Our Brazillian Floss Silk Tree (Chorisia speciosa?) just started popping its pods and drifting floss silk onto our garden, caught on the thorns of the Mister Lincoln roses. Related to kapok. Could stuff pillowcases with it, I suspect. Not edible. Our dog eager to grab a fallen pod, or fragment of pod, in a vegetable-animal "go fetch" game. But she's annoyed that the tree wont run around the yard and chase her. Triffids...

Posted April 18, 2005 4:19 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

My sister got around a "no crops" rule by growing flowering kale.

I'm overrun with chives. My garden looks like a green crew cut.

Posted April 18, 2005 5:09 PM by Melissa Mead

Michelle K, I might actually be able to grow basil entirely indoors. I have a skylight, currently choked with spider plants. Perhaps I'll hang pots of basil instead. Thanks for the suggestion!

Posted April 18, 2005 5:10 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

I have questions for this group of almost disturbingly knowledgeable gardeners.

I have no garden of my own, being an apartment dweller with no attached land. I do, however, have a roughly 4’ deep x 11’ wide x 10’ tall balcony with an iron bar railing about halfway up on the 11’ wall that’s open. (The other three walls are brick or sliding glass door and windows.) It gets about 4 hours of direct sunlight a day. The landlord has also put black netting with roughly ¼” holes across the entire opening in an effort to keep out the pigeons that liked to roost messily on the balcony.

I have no idea if this is possible, but I want to plant something that could grow up the railing/netting and maybe even flower and photosynthesize, and whatever else plants do. Obviously there’s no actual soil currently on the balcony, so I’d have to plant it in pots or trenches. Are there plants that could grow up without needing a lot of root space? If so, any suggestions?

I’m also interested in herb pots, as they sound a bit easier (they’re okay in windows?) and hopefully a little harder to kill. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated. I’m a little worried that my complete lack of gardening experience is going to translate into accidental herbicide, and so far the gardening catalogues have been more confusing than reassuring. Thanks!

Posted April 18, 2005 5:13 PM by Sarah G

Aconite, you'll trade Stella d'Oros? For spiderwort?

Where do you live?

Posted April 18, 2005 5:48 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

fidelio and Lucy K: My bush flowers just like that: giant bush, wee little roses, white, and very fragrant! Because of its disheveled state, there were very few blooms last year, and because I had to prune a lot, I'm not expecting much this year. BUT now I feel like we're heading in the right direction, although I'm not sure how J. felt about the email, with the link to the bush in AZ, stating, "Honey, I've figured it out! You need to build me one of these.

But I know very little about gardening; I just sort of wing it and try to learn a little more each year. Our big task this year is to save the lovely holly-looking tree that was growing in a trellis by the front porch when we moved in; it caught some sort of mite-ish disease last year and the branches got all soggy and speckled white. We're just hoping it comes back this year, and if not we might call a tree doctor.

Teresa: Every year I need a few consecutive weekends in the spring in which I spend at least one day thoroughly exhausting myself in the yard. My arms were so sore after my date with the patio bricks, but I couldn't bring myself to stop, even after my bicep started to quiver and my grip gave out a few times (although I was glad I missed my toes with the bricks I dropped that way). It is my favorite spring purge. Hard, hard manual labor, borne of love and (sometimes, if I get lucky) resulting in blooms and vegetables. Also, as the bricks came up, I could see my progress--which is very satisfying, and not always the way it goes in litigation.

Posted April 18, 2005 6:03 PM by Kimberly

Here in Northern Virginia, my ugly azalea bushes have started to bud.

I own a condo and there are people who grow things on their balconies, but my balcony faces north and there aren't many things that grow in complete total shade.

Posted April 18, 2005 6:10 PM by Marilee

Okay, one more thing (sorry for the thread monopolizing!)--Making Light is clearly the source for my quest to learn a little more every year. I just googled Stella d'Oros, and found out that I have a beautiful batch lining my drive-way! Hurrah!

And, believe it or not, another google later and I have to say that it looks like the blue/lavender flowers on one side of my front porch might be spiderwort.

Posted April 18, 2005 6:17 PM by Kimberly

Bruce: I know that feeling (the moving of tons of crap (in my case precisely crap) because we have horses. These days they are 200 miles to the SSE, but when they were a few hundred yards away (and they will be less than that again, someday).

Four horses (it's more now) go through about 200 lbs. of various hays in a week. Which has to be collected. Before the present system of composting beds was perfected (and when I was the only shoveller of same) I probably moved more than enough manure to fill your swimming pool.

Then, some months later, I'd dig into the pile (20' x 6' by 8' [in X,Y and Z]), which was an adventure in geology by analogy (I could see which weeks/months were which by the sheeting, a la sedimentary accretion, as well as the effectsof pressure, heat, and moisture on each layer) and haul it, a few hundred lbs at a time down the block; approx. 1/4 mile, to the garden and turn it under.

I wish we had good luck with brandywine, because Maia's mother loves them (though she can barely abide the smell of tomato herbage, so it is left to me to tend the plants) but where we were/will be, they are finicky as all get out, and in a good year produce maybe four lbs. of fruit per plant. In a bad year, they don't bear at all.

TK

Posted April 18, 2005 6:34 PM by Terry Karney

Xopher: Agree on Basil. I have come to the decision that barring fresh, I do without (though I may try Teresa's recipe. Have to by more basils... darn).

Have you thought of planters? I have three half-barrels (used to house wine) with grapes, as well as varied alia, and some lettuce.

If it weren't that shipping them to you would cost, a lot, I'd offer to get some for you. Barrels with an equatorial slice are $10. There is a shop here with polar halves for $40, but I'll bet I can get whole barrels for not much more than $20-25, and you could arrange to have them sliced any way you wanted.

I'd think that taking off 1/3, from top to bottom, would allow for the planting of even such things as peppers, which have extensive root systems.

TK

Posted April 18, 2005 6:41 PM by Terry Karney

Sarah - you might be able to get a clematis (fairly rapid growing, vigorous climber) to skedaddle up your netting.

Posted April 18, 2005 6:54 PM by Jill Smith

Kimberly: I just googled Stella d'Oros, and found out that I have a beautiful batch lining my drive-way! Hurrah!

Talk about learning something every day. This gives me visions of a driveway paved in Anisette Toast with decorative borders of Breakfast Treats and breadsticks.

Somebody airlift some out here while I go get a glass of milk.

Posted April 18, 2005 7:15 PM by Larry Brennan

Larry: That was precisely the sort of thinking that led me to believe I needed to google. "Teresa wants to trade spiderwort for breadsticks??!?"

Only now I'm hungry, and I've flowers but no breadsticks.

Posted April 18, 2005 7:28 PM by Kimberly

Sarah, what's the light like when the sun isn't shining there(deep or bright shade)? And when the sun is shining, is it morning or afternoon? That makes a big difference: morning sun is gentle, afternoon sun is glary. And what's it like in terms of temperature? And does any precipitation get through the netting?

If it doesn't get cold out there, you could fill the whole thing with sweet potato vines in a couple of years. And there's a morning glory for almost every purpose -- temperature, light, annual/perennial, blue red or white flowers. Oops -- those are almost the same thing!

I'll have less ridiculous ideas when I know more.

I've heard good things about clematis, but I think it's only recently made it into my area, because before last year the only place I ever saw one was in a magazine photograph.

Fidelio, I couldn't find on google a confirmation of this idea I had that there might be other varieties besides the classic yellow and white ones which might have bigger flowers. But. Lady Banks is, as I remember, an ancestor of many hybrids, and I'm wondering if your aunt's rose is a hybrid with a banksiae parent?

Posted April 18, 2005 7:37 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Just so you all know what I'm up against in my quest to learn about gardening, I provide this transcription of the short conversation I had, just now, with spouse J.

K: Guess what!! I found out what those flowers are on the side of the house!! They are day lilies!! Stella d'Oro day lilies!!

J: [raising left eyebrow] No, they aren't.

K: Yes, they are, I saw them online. I googled them and they look exactly the same.

J: No, they aren't. They're daffodils.

K: You're out of your mind. I'm going to look right now. I just saw them online right now and they look the same. Are you sure? [walking to window]

J: Hon, trust me, they're daffodils. This I know.

K: [looking out window, biting lip, and squinting] [little yellow flowers look nothing like picture on google, except that they're, well, yellow] oh.

J: Hmmm-hmmm.

I haven't the heart to go look at the little lavender-blue flowers by the front porch.

Posted April 18, 2005 8:02 PM by Kimberly

Lucy: Wow. I am not such a gardener (nor is our back yard big enough) that I could take all your suggestions, but I'm copying down the list and heading to the nursery...

Posted April 18, 2005 8:28 PM by Madeleine Robins

Sarah G: Speaking from experience, there are a few other things you need to take into account when planning your balcony garden.

Can your balcony support the weight of the filled, planted, and wet planters? This one is critical.

How high up is your balcony? The higher you are, the more likely your site is to be a zone or two colder than your ground-level location is rated. This will affect which plants can survive there. If you're only a couple of stories up, no problem. If more, you'll need to take that into account.

How windy is your balcony? If very, you need sturdy climbers with tough leaves so they don't get dessicated and shreaded.

How sturdy is the support you want the plants to grow on? How much weight can it hold?

If you want to e-mail me, I'll see if we can find something suitable for you.

Teresa: Yes, happily. Daylillies grow rampant here; spiderwort less so, and I have semi-woodland to fill in. I'll e-mail you with my location.

Posted April 18, 2005 8:53 PM by Aconite

I would admire to visit your formally bedded garden, but probably wouldn't want to garden where so much was replanted every year. On the other hand, if I lived in a city and were lucky enough to have a garden plot, might be different.

Basil: a person could plant a variety and compare/combine them. I include some Thai in each year's assortment, but that's because I've developed a taste for pesto with a sharper note of anise. And by all means try straight lemon basil pesto with fish (odds are you'll plant more lemon basil, if you like fish).

There's pesto made with dried basil? It's a funny old world.

Roses: I'm betting the "large-flowered Banksia" is Rosa x Fortuneana (or Fortuniana, have seen both spellings). In habit it's effectively a Banksia, I think the leaves are bigger; the flowers are white, scentless, a little wider and less formally shaped. I'm not aware that the Banksian roses have been extensively used in hybridizing but my understanding is, this one is a [?natural] hybrid of Banksia with China.

I once described Stella de Oro (look it up, that's the registered spelling) as a daylily with the soul of a marigold. In revenge Stella refuses to grow for me (that's after I noticed there's a place for a perennial with the soul of a marigold).

Michael Bowling
(Hi, Ambar, Beth Meacham.)

Posted April 18, 2005 9:02 PM by cmk

Madeleine -- I must admit that I am a lazy gardener though I have planted some demanding things because I have romantic notions that I will suddenly become responsible. Most of those plants you can't kill with a stick -- if you live in our area. Did I remember to warn you that borage also takes over?

My own yard is not large, either, but I also tend to plant small numbers of each thing and lots of kinds of things because I'm sort of scatterbrained and I get attracted to plants the way a magpie does to shiny things. OOh, looky there! I'll say.

Also, you should look out for displays by Shepherd's seeds, Renee's Garden (both founded by Renee Shepherd, and I don't know why she went from the one to the other), and Annie's Annuals (and Perennials), all of which are in our area and produce seeds and plants which do especially well here.

ooh, shiny websites:

https://www.reneesgarden.com/about/index.htm
http://www.anniesannuals.com/

I'm too easily distracted to be a reliable seed nurturer, so Annie's is better for me than Renee's.

Posted April 18, 2005 9:04 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

my garden concept has deteriorated over the years. I used to plan things. Now I just take a handful of whatever hasn't died and move it to a bare part of the yard.

It's efficient, anyway.

Posted April 18, 2005 9:05 PM by julia

Meanwhile, over here, autumn has finally arrived, the mornings have become crisp, and the sun has started to rise at a more civilised hour. Life starts to move again. We await the rain.

Posted April 18, 2005 9:51 PM by Dave Luckett

cmk: So it is, and so I've managed to botch it in two different ways today. Urk.

Regarding gardening websites, Dave's Garden has an excellent site for searching out mail-order companies and checking their reputations: Garden Watchdog

Posted April 18, 2005 10:29 PM by Aconite

Wow, thanks for responding so quickly. Ok, here goes:

Jill: Any plant that skedaddles is a plant I need to own.

Lucy: My balcony gets morning sun and then bright shade. I live on the side of a hill and the balcony faces the back of it and gets a fair amount of reflected sunlight. I'm also in Seattle, so yes, precipitation both occurs and gets through the netting. It doesn't get terribly cold here, the low is about 35 degrees F in the winter.

Aconite: Luckily, my balcony is solid concrete and very sturdy. Good thing too, as I'm six stories up. Also, because it's enclosed on three sides it doesn't get too windy. I'll email you more info about the general layout.

Thanks so much to everyone for their help!

Posted April 18, 2005 10:31 PM by Sarah G

Aconite wrote: How windy is your balcony?

D'oh! NOW I understand why my bay tree perished of thirst. (At the time, I thought it was in trouble because I was overwatering it-- sure, it LOOKED like it was dehydrating, but I "knew" that was impossible. After all, since the plant is native to the area, it would expect seasonal desert conditions...)

Posted April 18, 2005 10:47 PM by Stephan Zielinski

Ahhh, yes - the garden's just starting to emerge from the dull filth of late winter - and I should really get some cleanup done. I'm still trying to find a company that'll trim my (very large - ~14.5' circumference) maple tree for something that doesn't leave me twitching and muttering about highway robbery, on the theory that less canopy might mean more garden, and a healthier tree.

Stephan Zielinski wrote:

(At the time, I thought it was in trouble because I was overwatering it-- sure, it LOOKED like it was dehydrating, but I "knew" that was impossible.

I thought that I was overwatering some of my houseplants, but it runs out that my smallest cat has learned the knack of balancing on the larger indoor flowerpots and peeing! No wonder the plants expired :)

Posted April 18, 2005 11:03 PM by xeger

Sarah, you're fortunate. Morning sun and afternoon shade is the best part-shade combination. Also you're fortunate that your balcony is in Seattle, because your climate is a reasonable one (colder than strictly necessary, but not entailing complete shutdown of botanical operations for several months of the year).

According to a quick google, you're in Sunset Zone 5 (I'm in 17, only in a less-foggy version).

But, since your balcony will be warmer than a completely outdoor garden would be -- the building will warm it up -- you can grow things that might be challenging completely outdoors.
Sunset has had articles about growing subtropicals in Seattle.

You know what, though? I'd suggest going to the nursery and looking at the plants, because it's more fun than deciding in advance what to get -- you'd be surprised what you might find.

Maybe guava or passion vine would work, given the warmth of the building. Maybe not. Ivy is a nasty piece of work -- it tears brick buildings apart with its little fingers. Wisteria would get out of hand and is leafless in the winter and only blooms for about a month in early spring. I might think of an actually useful suggestion sometime -- meanwhile I think the best suggestion was Jill's clematis one, though I have never lived with one.

Posted April 19, 2005 1:25 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Sarah, one last thing before I go to bed:

look at this

Posted April 19, 2005 2:24 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer

aways back, Bruce said:

"having 115 tons of dirt, in 25-ton installments, dumped on your front carport and moving every ton of it through a narrow side yard with a wheelbarrow is, ummm, an interesting experience"

The rule of thumb goes like this. Big contractor's wheelbarrows are said to hold 3 cubic feet, but overloading with too much material is a baaaad idea, so let's say 2.0 cubic feet, max. Dirt is probably about .9 to 1.0 tons per cubic yard (1800 to 2,000 per 27 cubic feet) = 66 to 74 pounds per cubic foot? Hmmn. That seems about right. Suppose you can schlep 2 cubic feet per load, it would mean about 340 wheelbarrow trips per 25-ton load....

The horses each produce about a cubic foot of manure, weighing about 45 pounds (MOL).

WTH does this have to do with container gardening? Well, fresh manure is a pretty good rule-of-thumb stand in for damp loamy soil. If you have a 24" pot that's 20 inches high, that's about 5.3 cubic feet of dirt needed, which is about 240 pounds when wet. Your average balcony ought to be able to withstand one or two of those.....but how many?

Other topics: clivias are expensive, but very satisfactory shade plants in moderate climates. They flower best when rootbound, too. I wonder how vinca would do as a pot plant...I have some vinca minor that is very well-behaved and flowers in the shade... There are some peachy-colored, fragrant roses that have gone feral, all throughout San Mateo county. I'm taking cuttings. Own-root roses take a while to get established and then are hard to kill; if you are out and about and see a feral rose, I don't suppose it would be ill manners to cut a cane (but not in the parks, please).

Posted April 19, 2005 2:43 AM by liz

Sarah, Sweet pea (Lathyrus) is quick and showy, and will shoot six foot or so up your netting out of a smallish pot on your baclony.

You can grow it from seed this summer if you start now (or soon), and it is very satisfactory for a novice gardener, as it grows fast and has lots of pleasantly scented (if short-lived) flowers.

Clematis can be a bit of a heart-breaker in my experience, dying suddenly for no apparent reason just when you get fond of it.

On looking up Stella de Oro, I see that I have three of a similar day lily named "Eenie Weenie" in the front garden.

Like Lucy, I have a small garden, and prefer a few of a lot of things rather than a swathe of any one thing, mostly so that I can have at least a few flowers out there at any time.

Right now the Tulips, Glory of the Snow, Grape Hyacinth, Anemones and Pasque flowers, Phlox, Periwinkle, Primulas, Bluebells and the last of the Narcissi are out, along with the Arenaria and the Rock Rose.

Posted April 19, 2005 6:13 AM by Niall McAuley

I think the more recent clematis hybrids might be a bit sturdier - it also does most/all of its growing in cooler weather, so plant soon if you want it to get some serious height!

Our local home/garden center carried a dizzying array of clematis last year - already started, with a good variety of colors and sun/shade preferences. We bought four of them, and three out of the four are thriving (the fourth might have ended up prey to local marauding deer).

Posted April 19, 2005 6:57 AM by Jill Smith

Can I make a pitch for seedsofchange.com? They sell heirloom seeds, so you can pick a plant that actually grew wild in your zone (and besides, heirloom seeds).

The seeds and plants I've bought there are also remarkably hardy without pesticides.

Posted April 19, 2005 7:00 AM by julia

Sarah G: take a look at Ipomoea x multifida, aka cardinal creeper. Does well in warm climates and part shade, and hummingbirds love the flowers.

julia, are you familiar with Seed Savers Exchange? All heirlooms. SoC is, strangely, now selling seeds for which the original source is SSE.

They sell heirloom seeds, so you can pick a plant that actually grew wild in your zone

Heirlooms aren't necessarily native to areas they grow well in, and many never grew wild at all. They tend to be very well adapted to the particular regions they were developed in, though, and as you pointed out, well adapted plants are happy, living plants.

Posted April 19, 2005 7:30 AM by Aconite

Xopher,
If you have a skylight, you might be able to grow other herbs as well. Parsley should do fine, as should Rosemary.

Sarah G,
Depending upon what you want, I've grown Morning Glories and Sweet Peas in containers, and they should climb and flower all over the place, but you'll have to replant them every year. Though if you wanted a clematis for long term, you could plant sweet peas or morning glories to give you something to look at while the clematis is taking hold. You can also get clips(? hooks? metal things?) that allow you to hook the planters to the top of the rail, and then you could have hanging plants as well.

Are Stella d'Oros the ones that bloom repeatedly all summer? If so, I have several that bloom from mid spring through early fall. Unfortunately I'm not near New York. We have also inherited some of my husband's great-grandmother's lemon lillies, which bloom only once, but are a lovely shade of yellow, and spread quickly. We've only had them two years but they're already filling up their alotted space.

Posted April 19, 2005 8:39 AM by Michelle K

There are two sorts of clematis - the summer blooming - big, showy flowers in a range of colors like dark purple (jackkmani IIR) with somewhat sparce growth generally and sweet autumn clematis. The latter produces tons of tiny white very fragrant flowers - here in SE Michigan starting late August until frost. I have one that spreads more than 30 feet along a fence - and this sort gets hard pruned after hard frost. I don't know how it would do in Seattle in a balcony but it is a profuse and aggresive grower.

Since you sound somewhat shaded another possibility might be silverleaf - which also produces copious tiny white flowers. I think the idea of going and looking and asking about plants is a good one though. hmmn - honeysuckle or sweet potato are both pretty....

I also spent the weekend in the garden and have the battle wounds to show for it - the big rosebush clearly resents being pruned!

Posted April 19, 2005 9:39 AM by LeslieS

It's entirely likely that my aunt's rose bush is a banksia hybrid of some sort--she's an old-fashioned southern gardener, of the sort who's more likely to get her plants from friends and family than by actually buying them somewhere. She almost certainly got this rose, along with a couple of others she has, from someone who needed the space. She's also a major daylily maven, and whenever I visit her, we have to do a review of how what bloomed last year, and what's new this year. She has friends who are hybridizers, so she has a lot of odd daylilies you'll never see in a catalogue.

[BTW, Kimberly--daylilies are a summer flower. I'm not sure when the start/peak/end of the flowering season is for you, but down here in Tennessee they start sometime in June, and peak in mid-July, with many continuing into late August or early September, depending on individual habit. My aunt, who lives in Mississippi, prefers to divide hers either in February (if it's warm) or March, before the scapes that bear the blooms form or else in the fall, although this latter needs to be done early enough they have time to establish themselves.]

Almost every major city, and many small ones, has a daylily, or hemerocallis, society or club, and if anyone here would like daylilies, you need to hook up with these people. Daylilies need dividing regularly, and daylily lovers tend to keep acquiring new daylilies, without always gettng more space to plant them in. Therefore, they end up with perfectly nice daylilies that need loving homes, because otherwise--*gasp*--they'd have to throw them away!!!1! Most local clubs/socieities have swap days, where you can get daylilies for free, or for a small donation to the local club, or whatever. Many nice daylilies could come and live in your garden at a greatly reduced cost this way.

On the famous, nay, notorious Stella de Oro daylily: Although my aunt rarely ever buys daylilies, she does get catalogues from the main growers, and the pricing follows a standard format--the newer the introduction, the more the plant will cost; a new introduction can run around $500 or more, with a steady decrease in price the older they are. I have never seen Stella de Oro for more than about $3.95/6--my aunt jokes that they're only charging for the labor to dig the damned things up, as this variety is one of the most prolific, and will spread through the yard faster than bird flu in Hangchow. They're pretty, shorter than most daylilies, and are even harder to kill than most of the hemerocallis clan--but watch them closely.

Posted April 19, 2005 9:52 AM by fidelio

liz: Fresh manure (horse) is a decent amendment, in moderate quantities, but a poor substitute.

It will compost, all on it's own, if it's present in bulk, and kept damp. It will also, without turning, go anaroebic and develop 1: a sulphurous reek and a lethal environment.

But composted, at that point it becomes really useful, and one can arrest the composting at various points (or amend with things, like branches, chipped wood, green plants and paper to get a different texture at the back end), so as to create just the stuff one wants.

This is, however, much easier to do if one has a steady supply of manure, and some space to do the composting. Right now the problem at the horses is removing the finished compost, since I'm no longer there to spend 12-16 hours a week on the garden. Sigh. I'm making do with a small patch of sand.

Strange sand too, about a two-miles inland. A fair bit of organic matter (not enough to make it sandy soil, more like soily sand) in the top couple of inches.

So we're importing compost. I'm amending it in patches and have little plots of carrots and leeks and onions. Pots of herbs and bonsai. Patches of poppies and alyssum (which I'm slowing replacing. Spots of marigolds (against the snails) and my grapes.

I'm curious as to the period you think each horse is taking to generate the cubic foot of manure.

Posted April 19, 2005 9:58 AM by Terry Karney

Terry, thanks for the ideas on barrels. I'm not sure how that would work out (I'd feel obliged to consult my fellow owners on putting something the size of a barrel in the postage stamp - um, yard).

Michelle K: On those rare occasions when I use parsley or rosemary, I'm satisfied with what I can get in the store. I don't use that much of them on any given occasion. On the other hand, one can never have too much basil; some of my pestoing projects have been endangered by my nibbling the leaves instead of dropping them into the swirling olive oil. I've been tempted on occasion to make a salad with basil leaves.

In fact, there was an Indian guru - I think her name was Amritananda - who was famous for fasting on nothing but basil leaves and water for six months. That sounds unwise to me, but not like a huge hardship...except that you'd probably never eat basil again, and that would be a tragedy.

Posted April 19, 2005 11:24 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

Terry, take heart -- emended sandy soil is excellent for a lot of things, especially root vegetables which I could not grow without a lot of backbreaking labor:

"clay on sand manures the land, sand on clay is thrown away"

I forget where you are -- but inland sand is not really uncommon, since it just marks where any sort of water used to be: and two miles is not far inland. What's funny is going up to the first line of ridge in the Santa Cruz Mountains, say five to ten miles inland and 1000-3000 feet high, and then finding sand and the remains of not all that ancient sea life. Funny, but normal.

And since we've brought up native plants, for those in my area a fun place for a day trip is
Yerba Buena Nursery. I say day trip because even if you live on the Peninsula, the nursery is up a long windy road and down again, and the grounds are huge. I always want to come home with a kajillion plants, most of which are not suitable for my yard, but sense always prevails so far.

For wallflowers and ceanothus alone, you could spend hours. Not to mention ferns.

Posted April 19, 2005 11:32 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Fidelio, I for one *want* my Stella D'Oros to spread out more. More flowers, less grass to cut. (Most of my front yard is a steep slope.) Plus they're nice to look at. I have other daylilies too, but Stella's a favorite because it reblooms. Around here it starts in late May or early June, around the time the irises are quitting, and go on most of the summer. Last year, being wet, one of my Stella clumps was blooming on Halloween.

Kimberly, there are lots of lavender-blue flowers this time of year: violets, phlox, periwinkle, and several weeds. I seem to have them all in my yard.

Also yellow ones: daffodils (two different kinds -- one bright yellow, one paler), tulips, forsythia, and of course dandelions.

And the blossoms on the pear and apple trees. The apple blossoms are pale pink.

I just was thinking this morning that I need to thin the daylilies near the tulips because they're crowding the tulips out. Those daylilies -- old, orangy ones, not Stella D'Oros; they came with the house -- aren't blooming yet, but their leaves are pretty high already. I used to have a dozen or so tulip flowers this time of year. Now I have one. One.

The iris leaves are coming up, too. And the lilacs have buds.

I also have some more things to plant: irises -- yeah, more irises; I love irises --, anemones, and some tulip bulbs that I will try to not put too close to the daylilies. It's supposed to rain later this week and I may do it after that, when the soil is moist. It's also a good time to pull up weeds like dandelions; the roots come out easier when the ground is wet.

And once the forsythias quit blooming it will be time to prune them.

Posted April 19, 2005 2:53 PM by Lois Fundis

I think bolting in our area is more often caused by water irregularities than actual heat.

Oh, yeah, that would explain it. I am woefully irregular about watering the garden.

The Garden Watchdog is a good site. I wish I had paid more attention to the comments about Richter's Herbs before I ordered from them. I certainly don't intend to do so again.

Posted April 19, 2005 4:09 PM by Lexica

When we lived in Edmonds, WA, Mother grew an entire wall-worth of sweet peas on our west wall. I cut flowers every day. She even grew them here in NoVA before there were the hardy versions. I generally kill plants, but Mother could grow anything.

Posted April 19, 2005 5:35 PM by Marilee

Weird garden serendipity:

I recently went to a Flower and Garden Show. I was in the middle of writing a book that specifically mentions forget-me-nots, a red gladiolus, and very large beanstalks. I went past this one booth advertising Giant Beanstalk Beans, and decided it would be fun to grow some. So I take them to the counter. There are little packets of bulbs for sale, with a sign: "Red gladiolus, $1. I laugh and get those too. The booth owner rings them up, staples a packet of seeds to the receipt and says "By the way, these come with free forget-me-not seeds."

What are the odds?!?

Posted April 19, 2005 6:24 PM by Melissa Mead

Lucy: Just south of Pismo. I know inland sand isn't abnormal. The place in Arcadia has great swaths of sand, all washed down from the Angeles Crest. That's some thirty miles inland.

And the shallow slope (I don't think we're more than 30-40 feet above sea level) doesn't make the beachy nature of it strange. There are road cuts, more inland, and more upslope which are pretty much pure sand.

The problem is (and my carrots, leeks, onions etc, are all happy enough, though the leeks in more dirty soil are growing faster) the drainage, as well as the poorer nutrients. I have to be more attentive to water or they will dessicate.

Flip side, if I water too often they won't reach down to the area which is actually holding water.

Xopher: If you do get to use barrels you might take that as an excuse to hit the wine country in New York. They may have much better deals on half-barrels. Here, where I know I can get them for $10 they run $25-40 in a hardware store or nursery.

A truck and a reason to take a weekend in the country and you can justify the savings.

TK

Posted April 19, 2005 7:01 PM by Terry Karney

Xopher, as a fellow owner in your building, I can tell you that there are already four barrels in the back yard, only one of which has anything successfully growing in it at the moment (it's a sedum, which has so far returned for five years). You're welcome to plant in any of the others. They obviously were filled originally with purchased soil, though that could be changed out for fresh if you prefer.

We have blooming tulips at the moment, with more on the way, and blooms on the periwinkle. We've cut our ivy way back (it was invading the yard bigtime). The dog downstairs seems to have dug up the honeysuckle and most of the lavender. Grumble.

Our female holly has grown so large that all of the bulbs under her are now in shade, which they don't like so well. There are asiatic lilies on the way under there, and day lilies, I think. The irises are also coming up on the North wall.

Our philosophy is to plant things that don't require much care, as we prefer looking at the yard to actually working in it!

Posted April 19, 2005 10:50 PM by Lenore Jean Jones

Lenore, Terry is talking about actual barrels, cut sideways and used as garden plots. I know we have the small vertical ones.

Time to take a scythe to the holly monster again! (I love this part.)

Posted April 19, 2005 10:53 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton, only really angry)

Whoops, I'm not really angry over here. That's over in the habeas corpus thread.

Posted April 19, 2005 10:54 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

Teresa is the pain and the bloody scratch some sort of sacrifice to the garden to ensure plenty?

Xopher I am impressed that you can go from really angry in one thread to calm in the next. When I am as upset as you have every right to be I take quite awhile to calm down again. Of course you are talking about taking a scythe to something so perhaps I speak too soon...

Posted April 19, 2005 11:01 PM by Georgiana

Terry, I think our soil conditions are the exact opposite. I have clay on a high water table. It's hard to grow root cropos -- they tend to rot. But I never water the fruit trees in a normal year except maybe once in July and once in August and if I didn't always have new plants going and stuff in pots I wouldn't have to start watering at all until June or so.

I bought these cute little shade lovers called Claytonia sibirica and planted them in this corner that used to support Greek oregano until everything grew up around it. I decided the corner was a good plant to put the miner's lettuce seeds I bought on a whim. Genus of the miner's lettuce: claytonia! More serendipity. The sibirica is, according to the label from Annie's, a native of the Sierras, despite its Asian-sounding name.

Burble. I just wish that pineapple sage would bloom later in the year, you know? It's winding down, and so is the jasmine, and the Belle of Portugal rose is done, and the wisteria . . .

Posted April 20, 2005 1:52 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Terry -- the cubic foot of manure for the average horse is 24 hours, MOL. When I had a backhoe we composted the shavings/urine/manure result of 5+ horses. Now I am proposing to have my friends at Wheeler Farms do the job.

There is a famous road, Sand Hill Road, in San Mateo county -- famous for the sandy soil, as the "bedrock" is this friable sand "stone".

Oh, and forget me nots? I adore them -- in somebody else's garden. The seeds are brutal in the cats' fur. Especially perverse Mr. Natalie, who likes to lie in the gone-to-seed bits and get all matted in his, well, armpits I suppose. And then it is a job for the hundred-armed goddess to get the mats out.

Star jasmine (Trachelospermum jasminoides) might do well as a climbing plant for you, if it is hardy enough. I'm quite fond of it. The bloom is in May, here, usually, but the glossy green leaves are attractive all year long.

Posted April 20, 2005 4:17 AM by liz

Liz, thanks for the warning about cats and forget me nots! We have 2 cats, and one's a Maine Coon. That could get messy.

Posted April 20, 2005 6:23 AM by Melissa Mead

there are lots of lavender-blue flowers this time of year: violets, phlox, periwinkle, and several weeds. I seem to have them all in my yard.

[sigh] Okay. I've steeled myself. Today after work, I'm going to go out and take a digital photo of the little lavender flowers. When I do get the livejournal thingie goin', I'll post it, and someone can tell me what they are.

Thanks to everyone who posted things about my heretofore unidentified flowers. And it's raining in Ann Arbor today!! We've had some beautiful days, and after our neverending winter I hated to complain, but the ground here in Michigan most definitely needed some wet. So perhaps now more unidentified flowers will come up. Two apricot-colored tulips came up last week!

Posted April 20, 2005 10:26 AM by Kimberly

Liz, sand hills is what we've got, and mud hills, up to the ridge, with only chunks of limestone ("marble") and granite and stuff like that. It's on account of the Coast Range mostly being not all that ancient sea bottom pushed up by the successive arrival of floating debris from across the ocean. So you have Sand Hill Road up the peninsula and sand quarries all through the mountains.

My mother in law who lived in Menlo Park and Palo Alto said you either get sand or dobie (short for adobe soil, heavy clay that goes rock hard and splits when it dries).

Posted April 20, 2005 12:22 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Georgiana, actually I'd come over to this thread to read and write about something that doesn't make me angry, in hopes of calming down. It pretty much worked, though I must say the thought of hacking something apart WAS pleasant.

Posted April 20, 2005 12:55 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

I have a trip planned to a local garden store/nursery this weekend that I'm very excited about now that I have a little background knowledge. Thanks so much for all the suggestions, I know what part of the store I need to look around in now. :-)

Posted April 20, 2005 1:15 PM by Sarah G

Xopher, you're a good sport. I had come here from the site I moderate for much the same reasons. I was fleeing from a pretty nasty interaction that left me too agitated to calm down so I thought I would come here and see if anyone had left advice that would be useful for someone who wants to try container gardening and is essentially too sick to stand for more than three minutes but has a set of really wonderful sons who would like to help.

I'm renting a condo with no real yard, just a patio that opens onto the commons. I'm thinking I could do something with the edges of the patio area. I have tomatoes in mind and I very much want some herbs.

The barrel information is particularly appealing.

Many thanks to our hostess for providing an oasis in times of stress.

Posted April 20, 2005 9:10 PM by Georgiana

Georgiana, basil grows wonderfully with tomatoes; they both like the same conditions, and of course they taste lovely together, too. There are some perfectly fabulous grape/cherry/currant tomatoes that grow very well in containers. Look up Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds (www.rareseeds.com) for one source. Cinnamon basil is beautiful; the tips are a dark purple, and when the plant finally goes to bloom, the flowers are orchid-colored.

Tarragon also grows well in containers. French tarragon is the only kind worth growing; Russian tarragon tastes like grass you'd pluck from your yard. You cannot grow French tarragon from seed; you have to get it as a plant. And let me shamelessly plug 'Orange Balsam' thyme as the very best thyme you can grow. Rosemary does well in containers, too. MInt is happy in moist semi-shade, and it's best to grow it in containers because otherwise it will go everywhere. Oregano is another herb happy to be potted up. Greek oregano has more bite to it than the other types.

How old are your sons? What kind of help can they give you?

Posted April 20, 2005 10:31 PM by Aconite

Due to a lovely missive from the city (probably prompted by a complaint from the realtor next door selling their house), we gotta paint a small corner of our house (where there's a splash zone because of a gutter overflow) and the whole garage. I'm spending the next couple of evenings/part of Saturday morning removing dead/living foliage and the f-ing pieces of scrap wood our lovely neighbors to the east hoisted behind our garage when they built their new garage. I started to have a go at it tonight, but decided gloves, real shoes and probably a hat and better weed cutter -- we have vines going up garage sides-- would be the better part of valor. I'm certain pain is going to be involved, but I'm leaving the weeds on top of the retaining wall to discourage yard-to-yard passage of the various migrant thug youth that sometimes go through.

The good news is that we have actual sanding/painting help from Margene's daughter, son-in-law and a friend, onSunday. Thank goodness for Home Depot rentals.

Of course, I'll be cooking Sunday, with Jim being the grillmaster. Steaks were promised and we're extremely grateful. (p.s., at least our local Costcos carry the BEST beef I've seen outside of real butcher shops, which are oddly few and far between here in the barbecue capital of the world.)

Posted April 20, 2005 11:15 PM by Paula Helm Murray

re basil and tomatoes: basil also discourages snails, who love to eat tomatoes before you're ready to. It's really wise to grow them together!

Posted April 21, 2005 5:24 AM by Tom Whitmore

Xopher - ah. Well, let us know where you'd like to put them. It's probably cool.

As to the holly, John and I are easy about its height, but would like to see some of the bottom branches lopped off to give the bulbs under it some room to grow.

Everyone - Any ideas on what to put in our patio planting barrels, then? They get varying amounts of sun and shade, depending on the barrel, and of course have more problems with water because they're pots. The successful sedum is in the northernmost barrel, which would get the most sun, I think. (The yard is fenced, which creates shadow. It's about 60 feet long by 25 feet wide, with a small patio at the eastern end next to our building, which is four stories tall and creates the other shadows in the yard. Right now (10am) the Southwest corner is getting sun, as the sun is in the southeast, creating shadow from the building. Most of the center of the yard is covered with red cracked rock (the developer's choice, not ours).

Posted April 21, 2005 10:11 AM by Lenore Jean Jones

basil also discourages snails

A limited but definitely contrary observation, based on the assumption that snails and slugs have similar dietary preferences: here in the Sacramento Valley, slugs can wipe out a new planting of small basil seedlings overnight.

I admit I was shocked, as I'd thought the basil would be too aromatic for them.

Posted April 21, 2005 11:16 AM by cmk

Liz: that sounds about right. I was filling a couple of barrows every couple of days.

cmk: I don't know about basil. Mine has, so far, not been discovered by snails, but something has elected to eat the marigolds I put out to deter said snails. I've been culling them by hand, a few score every couple of days.

Aconite: My tarragon is hating life. The thyme in the container is happy as a clam, the tarragon sad and wilty. Which is a pity, because I like tarragon, at least as much as thyme, but when I think I might want to cook with it, the market is invariably out.

TK

Posted April 21, 2005 12:23 PM by Terry Karney

TK - Wow, something actually ate your marigolds - I thought pretty much nothing liked to eat marigolds.

Xopher - while you're planting basil with the tomatoes, throw some marigolds in with them. In theory, they'll keep most of the pests away. This worked for me in Brooklyn, except for the year we got hit with tomato hornworms (ugly caterpillar things that devoured a couple of near-mature tomato plants right to the ground overnight).

The one time we had slugs, my grandmother decided to try out the salt cure, so she dumped a mound of salt on a slug that had already been tossed out of the garden and onto the concrete. All that remained was a tiny, dessicated pellet.

Posted April 21, 2005 12:50 PM by Larry Brennan

Larry: yeah, you and me both. I think them attractive enough, but not really worth the stink.

We,however, have an hellacious snail problem, so I opted for them (better than poison, we have cats and kids, and I want to eat the root veggies). Imagine my surprise to see stems where leaves had been.

I am amused at how possessive I am over plants I didn't want.

TK

Posted April 21, 2005 3:11 PM by Terry Karney