I just want to say that, although I never realized it until just now, it has in fact been one of my life's ambitions to put up a weblog post called "Angels and Dinosaurs."

Posted June 5, 2005 7:27 AM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Wow, that is amazing...I have always wanted to read a weblog post called "Angels and Dinosaurs." :)

their heads arched upwards, as if in their death throes they were straining to keep their heads above water!

How can they be sure that they were keeping their heads above water and not addressing the heavens as if to say, "Why is everybody always picking on me?"

Posted June 5, 2005 7:46 AM by JamesG

Or perhaps they were all buried by their dinosaur kin with the posture described to indicate that they look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Or they were looking up at the spaceships they thought came to take them home, but which actually blasted them to death with cold rays.

Wow, this is generating no end of ideas.

Posted June 5, 2005 8:00 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

The necks are curved back as part of the natural process of decomposition. The tendons shrink and tighten.

Posted June 5, 2005 8:52 AM by James D. Macdonald

The Internet slang "LOL" is just so appropriate here... that's almost as cool as Calvin's "Tyrannosaurs in F-14s!"

I don't know why I'm astonished that it'd get 682 (as of this posting) responses, some of which from people who see no problem with proving that the Ark existed via shaded translations of Chinese and deducing that dinosaurs died by drowning because their necks are arched post-mortem. (Assuming the conclusion does make debate so much simpler...) But I am.

Maybe we'd all be better off if we skipped some of the "3R" stuff in primary school and, in the resulting curricular space, slipped the fundamentals of logic in. That way the brighter students would be able to fill some of the gaps themselves, and the heart of the bell curve would at least recognise B.S. more readily.

Posted June 5, 2005 9:00 AM by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)

No no no. They were hunted to death by the lizardlike humanoids from 'V'. They were the original earth inhabitants. David Icke has proof.

Posted June 5, 2005 9:12 AM by Josh Jasper

Xopher's first suggestion reduced me to helpless giggles. Good work.

Posted June 5, 2005 9:56 AM by Bruce Baugh

Yeah, I found that idea fascinating, too. I also found the author's webpage and couldn't resist -- I ordered a copy. He also has a graphic novel on SF and Christianity, illustrating The Day the Earth Stood Still from a biblical perspective...shee-yah, as if. A guy named Mr Carpenter comes down from the heavens to bring mankind a gift of peace, is killed for it, and is resurrected? I didn't see no giant robots in that there Bible. He should stick to the verifiable scientific facts.

Posted June 5, 2005 10:03 AM by PZ Myers

Good grief. I never realised before that the Ark was shaped like a modern pleasure yacht.

Posted June 5, 2005 10:26 AM by Jules

To follow on to James Macdonald -- the standard taphonomic interpretation of the arched-neck posture is death due to drought; the bodies lie around desiccating until covered by mud from flooding rivers. (Really bad droughts; all the scavengers are dead, too.)

Posted June 5, 2005 10:40 AM by Graydon

James, there are flexor tendons as well as extensor tendons -- the body's a tensegrity system, after all. Why would the extensor tendons drying out have a greater effect than the flexors? This is a similar question to "why do most spasticities seem to affect flexors more than extensors?" People with spastic disorders seem (in my limited experience) to curl inwards more than outwards, and I don't actually understand why.

Posted June 5, 2005 12:10 PM by Tom Whitmore

Beats heck out of me, Tom, but you can prove it yourself with a chicken neck.

Posted June 5, 2005 12:20 PM by James D. Macdonald

Tom --

I may be remembering this wrong, but most dinosaurs have axial skeletons that can be treated like a suspension bridge; the whole spinal column is carried nearly horizontal and with ligaments and tendons (sometimes ossified) to keep the whole thing that way without a requirement for much muscular effort.

The question of extensors and flexors really doesn't come into it -- that's the appendicular skeleton, the limbs -- so much as "it's mostly designed to keep from sagging due to gravity", which in turn means that the dorsal side is much more cabled-up than the ventral side.

So when the whole thing dries out, the direction of curve is dorsal -- there's more connective tissue on that side than the ventral side, and it exerts the greater total pull.

Posted June 5, 2005 12:36 PM by Graydon

Jordin read this aloud to me but I had to come by and see it myself.

Goodness.

MKK

Posted June 5, 2005 12:44 PM by Mary Kay

'The necks are curved back as part of the natural process of decomposition. The tendons shrink and tighten.'
WRONG-O BUDDY-O
The correct quote from Martin Phlegmer's The Science of Correct Posturing is as follows:
"The necks are curved back as part of the natural process of composition. The tendons shrink and tighten."
That's right, composition not decomposition. The Dinosaur's died from repetitive stress disorder brought on by writing saurian masterpieces of speculative fiction at their uncomfortable desks composed of various geological formations. Perhaps we are destined to go the same way.

Well you may be but I'm not, I'm taking up telepathy.

So when your shrunken tendons tighten for the very last time don't say I didn't warn you.

Posted June 5, 2005 1:02 PM by bryan

Yes -- tetrapods in most postures have to oppose the force of gravity pulling their heads down, so the ligaments running along the back have to be stronger and thicker. Fall down and die, and the passive tension generated by dessicating muscle and connective tissue distorts the posture...and it's those thicker ligaments along the back that win.

Posted June 5, 2005 1:04 PM by PZ Myers

Angels versus Archaeopteryx
Demons versus Dinosaurs. Pictures at 11...

Angels: God stands above all, and below Him (in hierarchical order) are: Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Virtues, Powers, Principalities, Archangels, Angels; humans fall below those, and animals below humans, in the medieval "Great Chain of Being." The science of Angels is called Angelology, and has made a big comeback in popularizations in recent fiction and film/TV.

Posted June 5, 2005 1:40 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

But tyrannosaurs were at least somewhat bipedal, rather than tetrapods. Are they different in how their heads look in the fossil record? How far down the phylogenetic chain does the "righting reflex" (the tendency to keep eyes straight and level) go? It's pretty clear in birds, for example -- is it clear in bony or cartilageous fishes? I really don't know, and would love more information.

Posted June 5, 2005 1:59 PM by Tom Whitmore

Tom --

Tyrannosaurs, and indeed theropods (perhaps excluding some few for which a scansorial lifestyle is hypothesized) as a clade, are obligate bipeds; many ornithischian dinosaurs were either obligate or facultive bipeds as well.

All that does is get you a suspension bridge with one pillar, instead of two; noggin, neck, back, pelvis, long tail, with the first three balanced by the tail. On death and desication, same scenario of the dorsal tendons contracting with greater force than the ventral ones.

Eye positioning is mildly controversial for theropods, because recovering a neutral neck position depends on soft tissue assumptions, for one, and for two, unless you get lucky and recover the sclerotic ring, it's not obvious just where the eyes are, nor how large they are, in a theropod skull -- the bony eye socket is much larger than the eye, and not round.

Posted June 5, 2005 2:41 PM by Graydon

What amazes me is that while the parents of ruling-class children claw to get their children into ivy-feeder nursery schools, their politicians celebrate this bizarre groundswell of the idea that it's somehow wrong for the children of the working class to know more than their parents do. It's even wrong to suggest that God is capable of anything their parents don't understand.

We used to worry about the creation of a permanent underclass. Now there's a muscular pressure group of people fighting to create it for their kids.

Of course, all this might have something to do with the odd ideas some of their (koff) spiritual leaders have about the relationship of God and mammon.

Maybe they're just insuring future WalMart staffing.

Posted June 5, 2005 3:22 PM by julia

Julia - We used to worry about the creation of a permanent underclass. Now there's a muscular pressure group of people fighting to create it for their kids.

Yep. It seems that the goal is to turn the US into Brazil without the hedonism. In the GOP/Fundie goal-state US, WalMart clerk will be a high-paying job and the masses will be out begging, just the way God intended.

Maybe it's time to learn Portuguese.

Posted June 5, 2005 3:48 PM by Larry Brennan

So... why weren't the dinosaurs *on the boat*?

Not even the little ones?

Oh, wait, I know.

A pair of small dinosaurs was on the ark. The fell into a tub of tar, kept in case the ark needed repairs. When they were fished out of there, a big swell rolled them into the aviary. The birds in there were moulting, so the two tar-covered dinosaurs were covered in feathers. From that day on, they and their descendants became ostriches.

Ta da! Biblical Science!

See how easy it is! Everybody join in!

Posted June 5, 2005 6:20 PM by Jon H

The dinos were on the "B" Ark, with the telephone sanitizers and the unicorns.

Next question: what about the ichthyosaurs and plesiosaurs? Yes, I know, not true dinos, but still -- did the Sharks gang up on them, like in West Side Story?

Posted June 5, 2005 6:40 PM by John M. Ford

John M. Ford: What about the ichthyosaurs and plesiosaurs?

The reduced salinity of the oceans obviously redered them less buoyant, and they drowned. God's plan, y'know.

Posted June 5, 2005 6:48 PM by Larry Brennan

You can't fool me, Mike Ford. You wrote that comic book in collaboration with Will.

Posted June 5, 2005 7:16 PM by Beth Meacham

I have read this book. My wife's grandmother is a devout seventh day adventist and she owns this and also a whole bunch of others by the same guy. One of them details why Seventh Day Adventists don't believe in hell and I really enjoyed that one.

Posted June 5, 2005 7:18 PM by Aaron

John M. Ford:

Ichthyosaur Song
from West Side Jurassic
by Jonathan Vos Post
with Apologies to Stephen Sondheim
[sing in the voice of Russ Tamblyn
to the melody by Leonard Bernstein]

When you're Ichthyosaur,
you're a 'saur all the way,
From your first cigarette
To your extinction day.

When you're Ichthyosaur
Let them drive a DeLorean
You've got brothers around
You're a family saurian.

You're never alone
You never need be stoic
You're home with your own
Throughout the Mesozoic
You're totally heroic.

Then you are set with a Capital I
Which you'll never forget
'till you asteroid-die.
When you're Ichthyosaur
You stay sore!

[Now I know Tony like I know me,
And I guarantee you can count him in.
In, out, let's get crackin'!
Where you gonna find Bernardo?
At the swim tonight near the rocks
But the rocks're neutral territory
I'm gonna make nice with him, I'm only gonna challenge him.
Great, Daddy-O.
So listen, everybody dress sweet and sharp and meet Tony and me
at ten.
And swim tall!]

We always swim tall!
We're Ichthyosaurs!
The greatest!

When you're Ichthyosaur you're top catfish in town
The Gold medal kid with the heavyweight crown
When you're Ichthyosaur you're the swingin'est thing
Little Ichth', you're a man, Little 'saur you're a king!

Ichthyosaurs in gear
Our cylinders are clickin'
The sharks'll steer clear
'Cause every Chondrichthys'
A lousy sick wheeze!

Here come Ichthyosaurs
like Pterodactyls outta hell
Someone gets in our way,
someone don't feel so well!

Here come Ichthyosaurs!
Little world, step aside!
Better go underground!
Better run, Better hide!

We're drawing the line,
So keep your noses hidden
We're hangin' a sign
Says visitors forbidden
And we ain't kiddin'.

Here come Ichthyosaurs!
Yeah!
And we're gonna beat every last buggin' genera in the whole
buggin' sea.
in the whole ever mother lovin' sea!
Yeah!

Posted June 5, 2005 7:29 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

The dinosaurs weren't on the ark because the Department of Arkian Security saw them talking to the fallen angels. Only a few dinosaurs were in on the plot but we all know it's best to keep everyone out when there's a security risk.

Posted June 5, 2005 9:19 PM by Georgiana

Wouldn't it be just as plausable to say that the dinosaurs were denied seating because they refused to buy second seats according to Noah's Oversized Passenger policy?

Posted June 5, 2005 9:53 PM by Anton P. Nym (aka Steve)

maybe a generation of dinosaurs was raptured.

Jonathon, that was inspired in a deeply bizarre way.

Posted June 5, 2005 11:02 PM by julia

I believe they all died from a horrible pre-historic rash. Their heads were thrown back in frustrated screams as they realized they couldn't scratch it with those tiny arms.

Posted June 6, 2005 6:05 AM by James Slusher

"Wow, saur, look at the pretty shooting stars!"

"Man. That's so cool." (Sips drink through straw.[1]) "That one's really bright, you can almost touch it."

"Yeah, it's like it's right there -- heck, it almost feels warm."

Boom. Dinosaurs fall over, spilling drink.

[1] The vital invention of the dinosaur party scene was two things. Straws and mammals. Mammals were good at both climbing the trees to get the fruit for Pink! Drink! and dexterous enough to get the pinepple on the stick of the umbrella. Straws, well, ever see T Rex try to slam a beer?

One hesitates to think how far things might have gone if the proto-mammals had completed thier work on the beer hat.

Posted June 6, 2005 7:35 AM by Erik V. Olson

Re: where the Dinosaurs went:

Ham ate them. (along with the urethra birds).

See Ms. Bergstrom's investigation into the Ark at Hitherby Dragons.

Posted June 6, 2005 8:11 AM by Tom Scudder

Obviously it's true. And God is a trickster god who hid all the lead-206 and neodymium-143 in all those there rocks just to show geochemists the folly of their hubris. Thus they were drawn into Satan's trap with the lurid, unholy delights of mass spectroscopy, forever lost to sin, doomed to publish in Geochemica et Cosmochemica acta for eternity.

Posted June 6, 2005 9:22 PM by Greg Horn

Angel Wings & Ichthyosaurus Dept.:

As Dave Langford reminds us, in Ansible 215, June 2005:

Revisionist Paleontology Dept. `The megatherium, the ichthyosaurus have paced the earth with seven-league steps and hidden the day with cloud fast wings.' (George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman, 1903)

Posted June 8, 2005 2:35 AM by Jonathan Vos Post

'The necks are curved back as part of the natural process of decomposition. The tendons shrink and tighten.'

Oh my god, they were sodomised to death! By Angels!!

Remember how those two angels were always hanging out in the town of Sodom, huh? And now we know why. And when they couldn't get some of the strange, what did they do, they destroyed the town!

Know who else did that, when he couldn't get laid? Hitler! Hitler destroyed towns when they wouldn't let him sodomize their dinosaurs.

Bastard.

Posted January 7, 2006 12:22 PM by bryan