I feel like I'm repeating myself.

From an essay on memory:

Incomprehensible appearances notwithstanding, this is a very simple problem, the Towers of Hanoi. Someone who has learned the Towers of Hanoi may still solve the tea ceremony formulation as slowly as someone who's never seen any form of the problem[13]. A failure to recognize isomorphisms provides one of the more interesting passages in Feynman's memoirs[14]:

I often liked to play tricks on people when I was at MIT. One time, in a mechanical drawing class, some joker picked up a French curve (a piece of plastic for drawing smooth curves--a curly, funny-looking thing) and said, "I wonder if the curves on this thing have some special formula?"

I thought for a moment and said, "Sure they do. The curves are very special curves. Lemme show ya," and I picked up my French curve and began to turn it slowly. "The French curve is made so that at the lowest point on each curve, no matter how you turn it, the tangent is horizontal."

All the guys in the class were holding their French curve up at different angles, holding their pencil up to it at the lowest point and laying it along, and discovering that, sure enough, the tangent is horizontal. They were all excited by this "discovery"--even though they had already gone through a certain amount of calculus and had already "learned" that the derivative (tangent) of the minimum (lowest point) of any curve is zero (horizontal). They didn't put two and two together. They didn't even know what they "knew."

A Gitmo detainee pointing to the Geneva Convention is not subject to the Geneva Convention, nor can he pull the Geneva Convention to him

Assuming this was intended humorously, not bad but not great.
As a parody on the Tao Te Ching, it lacked the inner symmetry with the original
which would have made it a very good parody.
Still, as a means of bringing out the "darkness" of Gitmo, rather interesting.

Thirty naked detainees join in a pile:
information
is where detainees are

When Gitmo detains a suspect
information
is precisely where there is no food

You cannot open doors and windows in Gitmo
where there is a detainee
for open doors and windows can't detain

Interrogators have no information
Detainees have information

Hoods blind people's eyes
Christina Aguilera deafens their ears
Food spoils intelligence gathering

Having information
crazes people's minds

Information hard to obtain
makes me want to attach wires to your genitals

Therefore interrogators desecrate the Koran
and not zyclon gas
Increasing suspense

I can't stick around. My last 2 verse were modified from 11 and 12 from the Thomas Cleary translation if anyone adds more. I did the geneva convention line from memory, and haven't found the verse in his translation.

And if anyone needs to hear it, I took opportunities to juxtapose abstract and concrete elements in the verses.

I would also consider modifying the verse:

Yet Gulag and Gitmo are missing the same lightbulb.
Detainees are placed in darkness.
Informants within darkness,
The gateway to all understanding.

Jas, it makes more sense as a followup to Jon H's comments in the Durbin thread.

And if it isn't too imposing of me, maybe even:

Free from the Gitmo, you see only the leaked memo.
Caught in the Gitmo, you see the Polaroid flash.

On second thought let me withdraw the last 2 comments, if for no other reason then that I have a bad habit of driving the casualness away from a dialogue, which I think they do.

2.

When detainees know only hot
this is bad.
When detainees know only cold
this is not good.
So coercion and information produce each other:
hot and cold contrast each other,
hunger and shackled defecation compliment each other,
schizophrenia and isolation conform to each other,
strippers and saddled elderly women go along with each other.

So interrogators harvest information
from detainees regardless of what they know.

All detainees harbor information without exception:
if they are suspected without evidence,
accused for convenience,
and are given no hope of leaving,
then by staying
information will not leave.

Avram, you and I graduated from SVA in 1992 with BFAs in illustration.

[with apologies to the Gia-fu Fen & Jane English translation of the Tao Te Ching]

Fifty-nine

In torturing others and spinning others,
There is nothing like using restraints.
Restraints begin with giving up one's own ideas.
That depends on Intelligence gathered in the past.
If there is a good database of Intelligence, then nothing is impossible.
If nothing is impossible, there are no limits.
If a man knows no limits, then he is fit to be a ruler, or at least Secretary of Defense.
If he codify the lack of limits, then he is fit to be Attorney General.
The mother principle of ruling holds for a long time.
This is called having deep roots, family values, and a firm foundation,
The Tao of long life and eternal re-election.

Sixty-three

Practice non-torture.
Extract intelligence within the Geneva Convention.
Or at least keep a straight face when you say so.
Taste the tasteless.
Promote the clueless.
Magnify the small, increase the few.
Reward bitterness with co-opted medical care.

See simplicity in the complicated,
as does our Commander-in-Chief.
Achieve greatness in little things.

In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy.
Or at least declare "mission accomplished."
In the universe great pyramids are made of small bodies.
The sage does not attempt anything very big,
and thus achieves greatness, except maybe on Social Security.

Easy promises make for little trust.
Taking things lightly results in great difficulty.
Because the sage always evades difficulties.
he never experiences them, nor gets court martialed.

Seventy-two

When men lack a sense of shock and awe, there will be disaster.

Do not intrude into their homes or jailcells.
Do not harass them at work or torture them at prayer.
If you do not torture, they will not weary of you.
All bets are off if nobody's taking snapshots.

Therefore the sage interrogates himself but wears no hood.
Has self-respect but is not arrogant.
He lets go of that and chooses this.
Practice saying this, and stick to the story.

Eighty-one

Truthful words are not beautiful.
Beautiful words are not truthful.
Good men do not air their dirty laundry in public.
Those who ask hard questions at press conferences are not good.
Give press passes to whores with softball questions.
Those who think that they know are not in the know.
Those who can look into the camera and say that they did not know what a handful of misguided men did, they will stay in office.

The sage never tries to justify himself.
The more he ignores the truth, the more he has.
The more spin he gives to others, the greater his abundance.
The Tao of heaven is pointed, but rarely causes organ failure.
The Tao of Gitmo is agony with no consequences.

You are the lens of the Gitmo; the only lens through which the Gitmo can become aware of itself.

The Gitmo, on the other hand, is the only lens through which you may know yourself.

Both lenses together make vision.

3.

Voting chickenhawks out of office
dulls al-Qaida recruitment.

Shackling detainees' hands at full-range
allows detainees to get comfortable without scratching.

Covering detainees' eyes
allows them to sleep without seeing their wounds.

Not feeding the insurgency
limits the supply of detainees to extract information from.

Therefore the interrogators of Gitmo
quiet the centrists and feed the backlash,
weaken American credibility and strengthen al-Qaida's resolve,
always referring to innocent women and children as collateral.

Make the sophisticated sound unAmerican;
conformity is peace;
neediness is freedom.

Should be "allows detainees to scratch."

I officially have to go.

This thread is now seriously creeping me out.

Maybe:

Shackling detainees with longer chains allows detainees to scratch.

I gotta go. I gotta go!

Seriously creeped 18 posts in -- Woo-hoo!

Sorry. I tend to see pretense as the most effective shelter of cruelty, so I default to trying to dismantle it.

Guantanamo,

One thousandth of one percent of the Gulag,

Nobody starved to death,

Those released from it free to bear arms against us again,

And we fear we might be doing wrong?

Jesus.

Wept.

Why did Jesus weep?

See Matthew 25:31-46 for the answer. Pay particular attention to verse 40. Verse 46 too might repay further study.

===============

Mr. C3PO, I fear for your soul.

Meanwhile, at World o' Crap's site, there was an item a few days ago about Cafe Press now offering "I heart Gitmo" t-shirts.

1st. This is a question of morals.

2nd. All intelligent acts of a moral agent must be either right or wrong. Nothing is innocent in a moral agent that is not in accordance with the law and gospel of God.

3rd. The moral character of any and every act of a moral agent resides in the motive or the ultimate reason for the act. This I take to be self-evident and universally admitted.

4th. Now, what is the rule of judgment in this case? How are we to decide whether any given act of amusement is right or wrong, innocent or sinful? I answer:

1st. By the moral law, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart," etc., "and thy neighbor as thyself." No intelligent act of a moral agent is innocent or right unless it proceeds from and is an expression of supreme love to God and equal love to man--in other words, unless it is benevolent.

2nd. The Gospel. This requires the same: "Therefore, whether ye eat or drink, or whatever ye do, do all to the glory of God." "Do all in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."

3rd. Right reason affirms the same thing.

Innocent Amusements

That the best you can manage, Mr. C3PO? A drive-by under a fake name, and the observation that our gulag is smaller and we don't always kill the prisoners in it?

Would you object if you wound up in such a place? If so, on what grounds?

James, your third point is not self-evident and universally admitted: specifically, if someone does an evil thing from (what they believe are) good motives, it is still an evil thing. It seems entirely possible, even likely, that some of the people perpetrating these crimes are doing so in the sincere (though mistaken) belief that they are protecting the innocent thereby.

(I realize you're probably quoting, but still feel the need to state my disagreement.)

Why is no one adding new verses? Don't leave the Gitmo Sutra to me!

4.

Interrogation is relentless;
its potential may never be fully exploited.

It is as deep as there is information to gather:
It provides more detainees to interrogate,
absolves the money Halliburton took from Saddam Hussein,
measures harmony by conformity,
assimilates the world.

When people stop talking they are withholding information:
I don't know whose abandoned child it leaves vulnerable,
no one wants to be a detainee's kid.

Not that I'd necessarily agree with Finney in all things, or even many things, but "protecting the innocent" does not necessarily equate to "an expression of supreme love to God and equal love to man".

5.

Interrogators are not humane;
the detainee may die before he talks.

Information is not humane;
they reside in detainees, who inconveniently die.

The space between heaven and earth
is as high as the overhead plumbing,
inexhaustible yet undrinkable,
that is a lot water the detainee can't drink.

Detainees talk endlessly
we promise to let them go again and again;
keep him detained anyway just in case.

The interrogator is married to his wife
they are heterosexual.

The interrogator's wife confuses him
he is not her interrogator.

If she starts talking to him she will never stop;
that's a lot of information for the interrogator to not care about.

Please Call Me By My True Names

Don't say that I will depart tomorrow --
even today I am still arriving.

Look deeply: every second I am arriving
to be a bud on a Spring branch,
to be a tiny bird, with still-fragile wings,
learning to sing in my new nest,
to be a caterpillar in the heart of a flower,
to be a jewel hiding itself in a stone.

I still arrive, in order to laugh and to cry,
to fear and to hope.

The rhythm of my heart is the birth and death
of all that is alive.

I am the mayfly metamorphosing
on the surface of the river.
And I am the bird
that swoops down to swallow the mayfly.

I am the frog swimming happily
in the clear water of a pond.
And I am the grass-snake
that silently feeds itself on the frog.

I am the child in Uganda, all skin and bones,
my legs as thin as bamboo sticks.
And I am the arms merchant,
selling deadly weapons to Uganda.

I am the twelve-year-old girl,
refugee on a small boat,
who throws herself into the ocean
after being raped by a sea pirate.
And I am the pirate,
my heart not yet capable
of seeing and loving.

I am a member of the politburo,
with plenty of power in my hands.
And I am the man who has to pay
his "debt of blood" to my people
dying slowly in a forced-labor camp.

My joy is like Spring, so warm
it makes flowers bloom all over the Earth.
My pain is like a river of tears,
so vast it fills the four oceans.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can hear all my cries and my laughter at once,
so I can see that my joy and pain are one.

Please call me by my true names,
so I can wake up,
and so the door of my heart
can be left open,
the door of compassion.

-Thich Nhat Hanh

James, your third point is not self-evident and universally admitted: specifically, if someone does an evil thing from (what they believe are) good motives, it is still an evil thing. It seems entirely possible, even likely, that some of the people perpetrating these crimes are doing so in the sincere (though mistaken) belief that they are protecting the innocent thereby.

Then why reserve the right to continue doing so? Why not hold trials?

7.

Incarceration is eternal, the insurgency is everlasting.

The reason they can be eternal and everlasting is because random detainees won't give us information;
that is why they can last forever.

Interrogators have no information,
and they must retrieve it;
they interrogate,
and are not interrogated.

Is it not by their very selflessness
that they manage not to know anything to interrogate?

C3P0,

Anthony Daniels.

Wept.

You sound more like a combat droid.

Mike, you're on a roll. We watch in amazement.

8.

Interrogation is like water:
the information retrieved from interrogation benefits all,
and does so whoever the hell the detainee is.

It rests where information dislikes to be,
which is why interrogators have no information.

Where it dwells becomes good ground;
detention is the good in its heart,
information the good it bestows.

Not having information is trustworthiness,
Ignorance in government is deniability;
ignorance in work is voting for Paris Hilton's tax cut,
ignorance in action is Rush Limbaugh offering sports commentary.

But only by not knowing anything
is the right to interrogate reserved.

To harvest information
is not as good as interrogation.

Calculated sharpness
cannot be kept for as long as detainees.

Though unsigned search warrants fill his house,
vacationing presidents cannot keep them.

When the rich upper classes are drafted,
Hell will be frozen over.

When you get hungry during an interrogation,
it is time to make a sandwich.

10.

Carrying interrogation and detantion,
embracing them as one,
can you keep them from parting?

Repeating questions,
Checking for inconsistency,
Like in the back seat of a car asking "are we there yet?"

Like shaking milk not homogenized,
asking "Oh did you want the cream?"

Interrogating detainees, extracting information to be disregarded,
can you say "homogenize" without a spit-take?

As the cell door opens and closes,
can you let leave without letting the air conditioning in?

As interrogation reaches everywhere,
can you watch too much "Columbo?"

Interrogating and detaining,
interrogating without learning,
detaining without discriminating,
detaining without air conditioning:
this is called executive privilege.

It seems entirely possible, even likely, that some of the people perpetrating these crimes are doing so in the sincere (though mistaken) belief that they are protecting the innocent thereby.

Protecting the innocent by use of torture doesn't follow from either obeying the commandments of God or from treating our neighbor as we would wish to be treated. Else we fall into "the end justifies the means" which is clearly immoral.

The commandments are listed in Mark 10:19:

"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother."

13.

Generosity and torture are alarming;
Publicity greatly afflicts interrogation.

What are generosity and torture?
Generosity is the lower:
get something and you give it away,
lose everything and you're friends deny knowing you.
This means generosity and torture are alarming.

Why does publicity greatly afflicts interrogation?
The reason we have a lot of trouble
is the ACLU.
If we had no ACLU,
what troubles would we have?

Therefore those who embody nobility
to act for the sake of the world--
accuse them of fraudulently filing for a silver star;
while those who embody love
to act for the sake of the world--
accuse them of fathering a black baby.

As the Gitmo to the Gulag,
So is the acorn is to the oak.

The acorn knows nothing of the oak.
Yet the acorn will become the oak in time.

An acorn looks nothing like an oak.
Yet the acorn will sprout into a sapling.
The sapling looks little like the oak, save to the trained eye.
Yet the sapling will grow into the oak in time.

Oaks grow to be strong, strong enough to hide the rot within until they fall upon you.
Oaks grow to be heavy, heavy enough to sunder even the mightiest of foundations when they fall upon you.

Such is the hazard of the acorn.
Such is the hazard of the Gitmo.

Grr... edit key, edit key...

First line should read:

As the Gitmo is to the Gulag,
So is the acorn to the oak.

Those responsible for the credits have been sacked.

Jim, that text you're quoting from kinda creeps me out. "We are the Lord's. We may innocently use both time and money to promote the Lord's interests and the highest interests of man, which are the Lord's interests. But we may not innocently use either for our own pleasure and gratification." It sounds like the justification of the worst kind of moralistic busybody.

Avram, I'm quoting from a Protestant, who belives in the Total Depravity of Man.

It seems appropriate.

The fears of Mr. C3PO, and others like him, are the grist for Cheney's mill. He tells them that only evil ones are detained in his torture cells (which only torture a *certain percentage* of unlucky inmates, anyway).

We try to reason with the C3POs - to convince them that even evil ones are entitled to basic human and civil rights. ....that withholding these rights from _any_ prisoner diminishes us as much as it diminishes him.

The C3POs aren't able to understand that truth, yet. (Order up more plays, stories, songs, and cartoons.)

Pragmatically, I think we need to keep asking the C3POs to work on their bullshit detecters. Ask them to weigh Dick Cheney's distortions of the truth against the counter-evidence that shows Cheney as a liar and a manipulator. What if most of the Gitmo and Abu Ghraib inmates were *not* actually captured on battlefields in the act of opposing the U.S. military?

How do we know who's telling the truth? We have this thing called "trial by jury" that we use for that purpose. The other things: trial by ordeal to see if witches drown, or indefinitely locking up _all_ the shifty-eyed foreigners in the area, (because "they look guilty to me") are *discredited,* *ineffective* examples of bad human behavior that don't solve the problem.

14.

Terror memos leaked from when you started a monthlong vacation
are called "historical."

Wives of ambassadors who correct your state of the union address
Robert Novak calls "C.I.A."

Information you don't get when you interrogate detainees
is called "job security."

These three cannot be completely fathomed,
so they merge into the "war on terror;"
creativity is not freedom, generosity is not strength.
Continuous, unnamable, Iraq goes to the Iranian religious ruling-party.

The prelude to civil war is called "last throes of the insurgency,"
you have to tell people something;
this is called deniability.

When you face the president's father you do not see the Carlyle Group,
when you follow the Carlyle Group you do not see deposits by the bin Laden family.

Hold to the Halliburton no-bid
to distract from the money Dick took from Saddam:
only when you know the republican cycle
can you know funds will be raised by selling stinger missles during civil war.

Jim, that site you quote reminds me of Simon Schama's characterisation of Oliver Cromwell's administration as "the Protestant Taliban" in his documentary series, A History of Britain. I think Dr. Schama's observation is bang-on; the parallels of intent, method, and even composition are astonishing.

I'll also point out where said Protestant Taliban ended up after the religious republic collapsed in anarchy and the restoration of the monarchy...

Thank you, Josh

... and to Mike for his multiple messages.

Mike, when you finish this, you might have a publishable manuscript.

There are many here who might take note of that, and I am not one of them.

I sleepy.

15.

Skilled warriors of old were subtle,
mysteriously powerful,
so deep they were unknowable.

And because they are unknowable,
I will take every opportunity to describe myself as one of them.

Their wariness was as that of one calling the Geneva Conventions "quaint,"
their caution was as that of one who denies fighting to preserve slavery;
although you were born and educated a Yankee,
cast yourself as a Southern Lincoln to closet Confederates.

Simple as regime change,
restocking Saddam's rape rooms and torture chambers with high school graduates,
no one will ever prove Lincoln was gay.

Who can't, in perpetuity,
cast criticism of torture photos as homophobic?

Who can't read "My Pet Goat,"
after a monthlong vacation?

Those who want to raise taxes to fund a war of choice do not want to win reelection.

Just because you skipped your Alabama guard grills,
that doesn't mean you can't show up on the USS Lincoln circling off the coast of California in a flight suit.

guard drills

Tom, don't tell Avram, since it's his idea, and he'll just kick out his own verse -- strangely changing his name to "Mike" just to confuse my 6 readers.

There is a difference between the idea and the execution.

The one who follows through actually crosses the still waters.

"Why did Jesus weep?"

Two specific times when Jesus is noted as weeping:

(Coming to Jerusalem)
Luke 19:41-42
    And when he had come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
    Saying, If you, even you, had only known on this day, the things which make for peace! but now they are hidden from your eyes.
[It appears not a lot has changed since.]

(Coming to the place where Lazarus lay dead, with his family and friends mourning.)
John 11:35
   Jesus wept.

17.

Even though he only freed the slaves
Lincoln is still somehow our best president.

And thanks to Hitler, FDR is next.

The president's father was only a one-termer.

Even though he won the first Gulf War,
he cheated on the president's mother
and could not exploit Bubba's affairs.

Acting casual like Reagan is best for the president,
when evil empires fall apart you get the credit
but when you delegate to terrorists you have deniability.

I'm not sure who the author of the Gitmo Sutra should be, if there's a better choice than Karl Rove or Alberto Gonzalez.

18.

When strength is measured by generosity,
then the interrogator must step in and correct it.

When peace is measured by adaptability,
the interrogator must say Jesus is white.

When freedom is measured by creativity,
the interrogator must introduce detainees to German shepard breath.

When backwards democrats are in the White House
FBI search warrants against Saudi terrorists aren't trashed
and poor people use evil condoms to have less abortions.

19.

Deny racism even exists,
and closet Confederates will feel "Arthurian."

Eliminate affirmative action protections,
and ignore any relationship between hate crime and cop-killer sentencing.

Revise government science reports to conform to policy
and there will be no pesky Kyoto treaty
inhibiting corporate profits.

Regulation become useless
when used for measuring strength by domination
by which corporations justify harvesting middle-class savings.

See the basic,
embrace the fixed market,
paint it as fair.

Note to self: adapt abstract images to touch on policy, adapt concrete images to touch on interrogation/detention.

Also, that spit-take line makes no sense. Wanted something better than "can you say 'homogenize' without giggling?" but couldn't cut it.

20.

Detach from information and you will have no worries.

How far apart are interrogators and information?

How far apart are good and bad?

Detainees cannot be but interrogated.

Wild indeed it is to withhold information!

Most interrogators take polaroids
like Mom at the Grand Canyon,
or Thanksgiving;

The interrogator alone is starved of information,
showing no sign
the detainee will ever be free of his domination,
riding grannies,
"Your cell doesn't seem so small now, does it?"

Most people would harvest more information than they have detainees;

The interrogator is alone in having no information.

It might even be said ignoramuses make the best interrogators
in their unadulterated simplicity.

Ordinary people would gather information from interrogation;
interrogators should interrogate for pleasure,
regardless of information.

Ordinary people try to abstain from torture;
interrogators should torture with pleasure,
like fish take to water,
without "up" or "down."

Most people have reason and goals.

The interrogator alone is unconcerned by information.

The interrogator alone is different from people
in that he seeks interrogation from detainees.

21.

For the countenance of great virtue,
only evangelicals speaking for Jesus are to be followed.

As messiah, Jesus speaks English and is white:
white and English-speaking, like the way he is painted;
English-speaking and white, you cannot imagine otherwise.

Unspoken, biases hidden, it has vitality therein:
that vitality is made real;
speak like it's true.

From ancient times to now,
there were no dinosaurs before Jesus;
why ruin the paradigm.

How do I know Jesus was white?
Oh, hey, check out my iPod.

22.

Benefit from critics of democrats and remain whole;
they are veterans for the truth and you don't have to answer for skipping drill.

Detention cells are filled,
vacationing presidents are reelected,

Economy is gaining,
don't mention it all goes to the wealthy.

Therefore patriots embrace interrogation
as a model for the world.

Not having information,
interrogators are therefore cleared.

Not allowing detainees to leave,
interrogators therefore interrogate them.

Not retrieving information,
interrogating detainees continues.

Not killing detainees,
Interrogation makes Gitmo not a gulag.

It is just because you are not in the Polaroids
that no one can end interrogation.

Is it empty talk, the old saying
that the buck stops at the presidency?

When truthfulness is complete,
there is the shredding of military records.

23.

Malapropisms is natural.

Formality is like a gusty wind that doesn't last the morning,
responsibility a downpour that doesn't last the day.

How to get things done? Propaganda and conformity.

If propaganda and conformity cannot go on forever,
how less likely the poor are to vote republican!

Therefore those who value conformity measure strength by domination;
the strong are fit,
those who do not fit are losers.

Those who measure strength by dominance are happy to conform,
those who measure freedom by compensation are happy to conform,
those who measure peace by conformity are simply happy.

And for things to blame leftover, detain someone and interrogate them for 4 years.

To refresh some memories. A year ago.

Modifying to be less indulgent, partisan-wise:

• International rights become useless when used for measuring strength by domination by which interrogators justify cigarette burns in flesh.

• Benefit from swift boat veterans and remain whole;
  
• how less likely the poor are to vote against their own interests!
  

Make Jesus love torture:

21.

For the countenance of great virtue,
only evangelicals speaking for Jesus are to be followed.

As messiah, Jesus loves torture:
loving his enemies means keeping detainees forever;
meek inheriting the earth, smaller cells means fewer square feet per detainee.

Unspoken, biases hidden, Jesus has vitality in torture:
however much vitality it has;
try not to photograph it.

From ancient times to now,
there were no dinosaurs before Jesus;
why ruin the paradigm.

How do I know Jesus loved torture?
Never mind, check out my iPod.

other notes:
more concrete images should be included with the interrogator imagery -- maybe more analogies to them. (man, this is a gruesome topic)

23.

Those detainees on tiptoe don't stand up,
those handcuffed doubled-over do not walk;
those with unlaundered briefs over their eyes do not see,
those wearing clothing are not photographed;
those who denounce America will be chained in disco poses,
those who take refuge in books of faith will have to wait until my bladder is full.

Media reports these prankish activities
and feed the insurgency.

Some people disdain them,
so patriots call them traitors.

It was a mistake to start linearly -- should do all the short verses first.

19. "Human rights" not international rights
21. "...smaller cells mean more detainees per area."

26.

Gravity stretches out a chained detainee;
chains are the masters of shackled limbs.

Thereby does an interrogator travel from cell to cell
with every detainee prone.

Interrogators have a look of prosperity,
their torture is transcendent.

What can be done about detainess
who offer to talk to avoid torture?
Instead of gravity,
pull them by a leash.

When interrogations are performed
Without unnecessary publicity
People say, "We didn't do it."

19 update

"Revise government science reports" to:

Reinterpret human rights
and there will no international standard
inhibiting torture.

33.

Those who interrogate are wise;
those who have no information are enlightened.

Those who overcome detainee-alibis are powerful;
those who shred incriminating evidence are strong.

Those who are Halliburton are rich;
Those who build a new Gitmo jail receive $30 million.

Those who know their place may pack the dead on ice;
those who like the way things are don't ask questions.

Modifying Alan's verse as the new last line of 23. (Malapropisms)

When torture is reported, wise leaders say, "We didn't do it."

34.

Interrogation is universal;
it can apply to the guilty and everyone else.

All free people depend on it for life,
interrogation cannot be resisted.

If information is extracted,
detainees are kept regardless.

All detainees are lovingly interrogated,
without rhyme or reason.

Disregarded, information can be called small.

As all detainees recoil from torture,
as the public is indifferent to it,
it can be called great.

Therefore wise leaders never contrive against torture;
that is why nations can become great.

35.

When quarantining detainees,
the world goes on and on without harm,
peaceful, even, tranquil.

Where there is music and dining,
detainees are removed from there;
but the issue of interrogation
is so plain as to be flavorless.

Their children cannot see them;
their wives cannot hear them;
detention cannot be exhausted.

36.

Should you double-over a detainee to shackle him,
you must stretch him out over a rail.

Should you drive him from the shelter of the only faith he knows,
you must encourage -- with women, nudity, and pornography -- strong erections.

Should you want to minimize his terror and invalidate him,
throw him on a pile of naked men.

Should you want him to itch for 58 minute,
grant him 2 minutes to scratch.

These are subtle tortures.

Flexibility and yielding
coercing adamant resolve.

Fish shouldn't be taken from the depths.

How much more severe the torture is
when the detainee only has his word it's even taking place.

I am _not_ defending the acts of the torturers: I am pointing out that good intentions are not enough. In particular, a good end is not enough, if we ignore the means. Jim quoted, and I thought was agreeing with, the statement that "The moral character of any and every act of a moral agent resides in the motive or the ultimate reason for the act."

Not in the act itself. Not in its effects on other people. In the "motive or the ultimate reason for the act."

To me, the rhythm of the modified verses is starting to feel more like a "Screwtape Letters"-style justification for torture (which is also kind of why I decided Avram's opening verse was better his way). Let me know if it becomes too tedious, I can always take it offline.

43.

A prisoner who is detained
is the foundation of dominance.

A detainee is kept in a room;
that is how we know we are free.

His accusers owe him no explanation and their biases
are not subject to scrutiny.

44.

Which is more vulnerable, a detainee's name or his body?
Which is greater, his body or his possessions?
which is more coercive, gratification or deprivation?

Extreme relief means great indebtedness,
and abundant detainees mean prisoner gladiatorial fights.

If you give the detainee enough peace,
the longer he will be menaced by the blood-thirsty German shepherd.

If you subject the detainee to the German shepherd too long,
he won't care as much when it's chewing on his leg-tendon.

It is possible thereby to terrify a detainee indefinitely.

45.

Complete dominance seems incomplete;
It's endless despair remains in that last bit of hope.

The despair of a dungeon is in its emptiness;
the despair of an empty dungeon is endless.

Complete coercion seem consensual;
giving some illusion of control
shelters your deniability.

When you strap down a detainee,
and he defecates on himself,
who will say the shame is not his but yours.

46.

When the free world adopts torture,
Rich families leave military service to the poor.

When the free world neglects torture,
children are pressured to serve regardless of privilege.

No crime is greater than diplomacy;
no calamity is greater than waiting for a war of necessity,
no fault is greater than patience.

So voter-indifference to torture is always enough.

Seventy-Eight

Under heaven nothing is more soft and yielding than water.
Yet for attacking the solid and strong, nothing is better.
It can be dripped endlessly on a captive's head.
The captive's head can be held under it.
It can flush a sacred text down the drain.
It has no equal.
The weak can overcome the strong.
The supple can overcome the stiff.
Under heaven everyone knows this.
Yet we are reality-based, and put it into practice.
Therefore the sage says:
He who takes upon himself the humilation of people is fit to rule them.
He who takes upon himself the country's disasters deserves to be the President of the Universe.
He deserves to be the Emperor of Everything.
The truth often sounds paradoxical.
Live with it.

Seventry-nine

After a bitter election, some resentment must remain.
What can one do about it?
Therefore the sage keeps half his promises,
and exacts his due from the core.
He rewards the wealthy who backed him.
He scares the rest about impovershed old age.
A man in the White House performs his part.
But a man outside the beltway is not in the play.
The Tao of heaven is impartial.
It eliminates estate tax among poor and rich alike.
It allows any company to compete with Halliburton.
It stays with the powerful even in undisclosed locations.

Eighty

A small country has fewer people.
Bombs and bullets can reduce it further.
Though there are machines that can work ten to a hundred times faster than man, they won't work when the power grid is down.
We'll fix that soon, once the contractor's been paid.
The people take death seriously and do not travel far.
Though they have boats and cars, few use them.
Men return to the knotting of rope in place of writing.
Rope can be used as a dog-leash for a man.
Rope can tie hands behind backs for days.
Rope can suspend a man in a cell.
Their food is plain and good.
Sadam hates Fruit Loops, guess what's for breakfast?
Their orange clothes are fine but simple.
They can be seen easily from the guntower.
Though they are incarcerated within sight of their neighbors, barking dogs are heard through the barbed wire.
They are a simple people.
They are happy in their barbarian ways.
We let them pray, and put up pretty pictures of naked women to make their prayers happier.
We will leave them in peace, in their cells, while they grow old and die.
Or until the war on terror ends; whichever comes first.

Man, the translation I have of the original text for verse 19 is abstract and goes all over the place -- it just bothers me too much:

19.

Deny racism even exists,
and closet Confederates will feel "Arthurian."

Eliminate affirmative action protections,
and ignore any relationship between hate crime and cop-killer sentencing.

Reinterpret human rights
and there will no international standard
inhibiting torture.

When we have dominated the terrorists
by using their own terror against them
peace in the Middle East will justify everything.

See the basic,
fight fire
with fire,
don't ask me about water.

47.

As the interrogator leaves for work, his wife says,
"If you're going to be late for dinner, don't even bother coming back through that door."

He is considering the benefit of taking her offer
without even saying a word.

The closer he gets to the door, the less certain he is he'll return;
yet another thing the interrogator doesn't know,
going without returning,
divorcing without striving.

It occurs to me that it is a very good thing for the authors and editor of this thread that the defenders of the Tao te Ching are less zealous than those of bible and Koran.

48.

The interrogator hits on the Red Cross worker daily;
Refusing him, she loses her opportunity to attend to the detainees daily.
Losing and losing,
thus the interrogator reaches noncontrivance;
be uncontrived, and there is no rejection you can't turn into a good thing.

Taking the Red Cross worker would be easy,
her arms would break in your meaty paws like dry spaghetti.

But when keeping the Red Cross worker from the detainees,
allowing her to reject your advances is enough.

But the Koran is a finished text, so we'd need a Gitmo Hadith.

50.

Exiting the detention facility, the interrogator enters the Gitmo commissary.

The undocumented workers working for the base exchange are 3 out of 10,
the number of base exchange workers the interrogator wishes to interrogate are 3 out of 10;
this workday, the base exchange workers
must tolerate horseplay from young recruits
who are also 3 out of 10.

What is the reason?
Because of the intimidation
with which they wave an open "Playboy."

It has been said
military exchanges no longer support the sale of pornography,
and the interrogator asks himself who he has to interrogate
to find out how Playboy does not qualify.

There are no more Twix bars to gorge on;
there are no more peanutty Paydays to consume;
there is only leftover candy corn to devour.
What now? The interrogator would rather sample the excrement of which his detainees are forced to roll in.

49.

The interrogator has no Mustang car;
he borrowed money from the loan sharks services that prey on the military:
he borrowed five bills,
his wife's car was not enough collateral;
he mortgaged his beloved car.

He missed a payment,
but it wasn't his fault,
his wife didn't leave enough
in their joint account.

When the interrogator made his payment
it was too late:
they towed his Mustang;
he tried to stop them,
but they pistol-whipped him.

Good lord, Mike, you're a fount of... well, something.

Don't quit now! I'd love to see all of this finished up and posted as one continuous thread.

Randolph Fritz wrote:
> It occurs to me that it is a very good thing for the authors and editor of this thread that
> the defenders of the Tao te Ching are less zealous than those of bible and Koran.

Speaking as a beginning student of the Tao Te Ching, I was thinking the very same thing.

Tolerance is a wonderful thing.

For a different take on this thread, though, while one Gitmo/Gulag spin on one Taoist verse was
interesting, dozens of such "spun" verses appear (to me) to be beating a dead horse. As there
are others who seem to like them, though, stating this opinion only once will suffice to express
my lack of appreciation.

In other words ... bored now. :-)

Domendur

51.

The interrogator's wife
did not get
custody of her daughter
after the divorce.

She cheated on her first husband
with a young interrogator.

The interrogator's wife
had partial custody
during the separation,
but she mistakenly moved in with the interrogator.

The interrogator taught his future wife's daughter
how to break the arm
of someone trying
to choke her.

A boy was teasing her about her parents
and she punched him in the crotch; he deserved it;
the judged ruled the interrogator was liable,
and custody went to her father.

52.

The wife of the interrogator works part-time
and was ordered by the court to pay child support.

Her ex-husband is retiring,
and is planning to marry a Cuban cigar-roller.

Her thighs are stained and flabby
from her career rolling cigars on them,
and he's in love as if for the first time.

The cigar-roller wants to live with her family
who floated to Miami on a raft of cigar tubes.

She had been saving them for her and her boyfriend,
but her family found them.

They started floating away when their basement flooded;
her family decided to leave Cuba but she wanted to wait for Pedro.

Pedro was in jail for punching a Cuban umpire who called his strike a ball;
the Yankees soon learned of Pedro and flew him
at his request without his faithful cigar-roller.
He was deported for beating a Mary Marvel-themed transvestite hooker.

Where is the pause on this video game?

53.

The ex-husband told the wife of the interrogator
he was taking their daughter to Miami.

He was going to open a Krispy Kreme franchise.

Not a Krispy Kreme where the donuts are shipped in,
but one where the donuts are fried.

The wife of the interrogator
didn't want her daughter to leave Cuba,
but her ex-husband reminded her their daughter was turning 16 this year;
parents at Gitmo typically sent their daughters
to relatives in the States at 14;
the wife of the interrogator
could not disagree with her ex-husband.

The ex-husband said at least them leaving Cuba meant
she wouldn't have to pay child support anymore.

Because we love freedom,
We protect it by
Burying it,
(With patriots and tyrants)
Now and then exhuming it
To see if all's well.

And when it isn't,
(It's gotten soiled, somehow,
And what's that stain?)
We wonder what we loved,
And why our good faith
Does not serve.

2

Destroying law
Is hard, and easy.
Hard, for outlaws only
Pick at threads.
But easy:
For those who wear the garment
Rend it, then.

While airplanes depend on drag to stay in the air, I feel like whatever streamlining I've done to the gitmo sutra madlibs since yesterday has caused me to crash its plane. I don't even think I was 20 verses in before I defaulted to my favorite "George Bush as southern Lincoln" line of reasoning, and quite frankly I'm afraid to look.

I mean, I have a plot and everything for the interrogator, but does anyone need me to present it in another 30 verses, or can we just chalk today up to trying something new?

Please, Mike, keep going! Novellas and Novels in verse do get published now and then. I can imagine your work in, say, The Village Voice. Norman Mailer interview in this month's Rolling Stone reminded me of its origins.

Don't mind my starting at the end and working towards the start. It's the way I often write poems and short stories. Know the punchline, am surprised how I got there.

With the plot, I'm not sure who is narrating now.

30. (not for number order, but to occupy skipped verses)

Detainees who cooperate in interrogations
do not volunteer information
such things end interrogation.

"I know where Osama bin Laden is,"
says one detainee, say all eventually.

"We have a GPS tracking system on him,"
says a clever detainee to the interrogator;
the interrogator is surprised and laughs,
but laughs not to loudly,
for only a little bit of approval is enough gratification.

Such is the kind of information
that must be disregarded for the interrogation to continue.

"I know where Saddam's weapons of mass destruction
are located," the interrogator hears from another;
"I can tell you where al-Qaida keeps their largest cache
of opium and gold," he hears from another;
disregarding information is essential for the interrogation to continue.

31.

"I am the son of Osama, and the grandson of Saddam,"
hears the interrogator, of one detainee voluteering a DNA sample;
"I am the missing link between Saddam and al-Qaida."

"I know where Jimmy Hoffa is buried,"
the interrogator will hear , if the detainee is well read.

"The woman buried in Princess Diana's is a clone made from soybeans,"
the interrogator will hear from another.

"I was spirited away to afghanistan to develop cold fusion,"
the interrogator will hear from one claiming to be a scientist;
"please you must give me a paper and pencil
before I forget;"
His claim of being one of Saddam's weapon scientists
must also be disregarded.

The interrogator watches one detainee
pull out his hair.

"These bar codes can access
a half million US dollars of Saddam's fortune;
the code hidden behind my right ear
is for the institution;
the code behind my left ear
is for the Swiss account."

Upon hearing this
the interrogator must summon assistance.

It takes 2 interrogators to hold down the detainee
as the interrogator applies the cigarette burns to his scalp.

Unfortunately for the detainee, the bar codes
are wider than they have to be.

27.

Hesitation leaves a trail,
hesitation leaves errors,
hesitation shows calculation.

Cubicles in the detention facility have no doors,
where there is no detention, there is no information.

Roger asks the interrogator,
"Care to buy some girl scout cookies?"

Roger is the interrogators supervisor.
The interrogator is sleeping with Roger's wife.

"For Nicole?" said the interrogator.
"No, for Charlie," Nicole's younger brother, said Roger;
"Of course Nicole, who do you think?"

Roger's wife once hid a bag of charcoal,
so Roger would take the kids to get more
so she could be alone with the interrogator.

28.

Prefer the chocolate and peanut butter cookies, keep the mints;
Keep your desires hidden.

Roger hates the mint cookies,
Roger knows the interogator hates the mint cookies,
Roger's closet is full of Nicole's mint cookies.

"Do you have chocolate and peanut butter," the interrogator asks;
the interrogator secretly prefers the mint cookies.

"Sorry, I only have mint," said Roger.
"As your supervisor, I recommend you buy a box of mint;
you've got a review coming up, remember?"

Keep your desires hidden, and act without hesitation.
The supervisor's wife hates how he cries himself to sleep at night.

32.

The interrogator returns home with an unwrapped "bomb pop."

"What is that?" said the interrogator's wife,
"I'm just about to set dinner on the table."

"It's a 'bomb pop,' said the interrogator;
"It's red, white, blue, I love it!"

"Give that to me, said the interrogator's wife,
"you'll ruin your appetite."

The interrogator scarfed down the delicious bomb pop;
The cold air he exhaled caused the air to steam.

"No thanks, dear,' said the interrogator;
"I've already eaten."

The interrogator was in love with the Cuban news woman;
his wife took every step she could to bring him home
and serve dinner during her broadcasts.

The interrogator settled into the easy chair
as rivers flow to oceans.

29.

Should you want to take a married woman
and contrive to do so,
be careful not to break up her marriage.

If you interrogate her
she will offer information.

Those who spoil her marriage
must contend with her knowledge.

Sometimes husbands preserve marriage and sometimes leave,
sometimes deny and sometimes cheat themselves,
are sometimes forbidding and sometimes permissive,
settle afairs immediately and sometimes wait for a really good ambush;
therefore interrogators should not impose on marrital bonds,
minimize commitment,
minimize interrogation

54.

Good construction does not fall down,
a good embrace does not let go;
spouses honor each other unceasingly.

Cultivate love in yourself, and your marriage will be real;
don't pick a talkative wife, and your marriage will last forever;
pick a hefty commute to work, and forget to pick up the milk;
say you lost your paycheck in the football pool, and not on strippers off-base.

So observe yourself by yourself,
observe your wife at home,
go to places where your wife is not,
your wedding ring marks you as a safer lay to slutty women,
the world disregards single men.
How does an interrogator honor his marriage?
As has been described.

55.

The interrogator thinks of kicking his wife's daughter
into oncoming traffic, just to distress her mother.

Spiders and scorpions do not sting her,
base guard dogs do not growl at her,
crows which smell death do not grab her and fly away.

Vulnerable,
yet invulnerable.

The interrogator considered explaning the birds and the bees to her,
just so she would tell her parents she learned it from him;
It's like a love affair.

Waiting to give her beer and get her drunk,
like the anticipation before bursting bubble-wrap,
she's going to get burned sooner or later;
maybe start her with a mai tai.

When trust is burdened, it wanes;
If she can be turned against her parents,
she may provide a good lay after she has moved out.

56.

The interrogator does not know his wife,
but has no curiosity.

She wears a man's cologne,
he suspects no affair;
she takes phone calls in the other room,
whispers, but does not hear the other line pick-up;
she includes in his laundry
bikini briefs which are not the interrogator's.

No inconsistency is too severe.

The interrogator found a man hiding in their closet,
but he did not need to be introduced as her visiting brother;
beer is steadily removed from his stock,
but he does not remind her she does not drink;
she drives around with the wide-sceen television in the passenger seat,
but the depression arouses no suspicion as she drives him to work;
she displays hickeys along her neckline,
but his first concern is if she's damaging the vacuum cleaner.

Therefore trust is precious for an interrogator's marriage.

57.

The interrogator's father served
in the armed forces veterinary corp;
he was killed by a Saudi Arabian camel-handler's union.

How does the interrogator know this?

When his father's body was shipped home,
his face was marked with the Sign of the Camel-Handlers Local 1414;
the sign is a camel with spider's legs,
that was the shape of the impression left on his neck.

His father served 2 years in Saudi Arabia,
as a lt colonel handling the general's camel;
generals are dicks the way they make officers crawl to make colonel;
the camel was a gift of the Saudi Royal Family,
which the general never visited after accepting it.

Never visited until the general announced his retirement,
and he performed his own stage magic at the ceremony;
The general, the camel he made disappear, and the camel's handler made the local papers;
that's when Local 1414 ordered the assassination of the interrogator's father.

"his face was marked" should be "he was marked"

58.

The interrogator never discussed with his mother
the Sign of the Camel Handlers Local 1414.

He had only discussed it ever with one person,
a girl he was dating during espionage school.

"My father was killed by Camel Handlers Local 1414," he said;
Her father organized labor for auto-workers in Detroit.

She thought he was ridiculing her father.
She broke up with him.

The interrogator tried dating girls
without mentioning his father;
when they asked, he said his father died
doing one of those things father's do:
playing catch,
taking the interrogator hunting,
talking to him about birth control or drugs -- "things fathers do."
Dating became easier for him after he specialized in interrogation.

59.

Gitmo was the interrogator's opportunity
to learn about Local 1414.

The other interrogators thought his spider-legged camel costume
was for psych-out value;
they did not know the interrogator
was on a serious mission.

All the detainees said the same thing:
Saudi Arabia has no labor unions.

The interrogator knew Local 1414 was a puppet union
organized by the monarchy to appease the west;
"Doing those things American unions do,"
was their slogan.

Having been raised by fathers, the other interrogators
did not suspect Local 1414 like the interrogator did.

I see this published enthusiastically by City Lights Books, but there are certainly other outlets.

Mike - it's beautifull and horrifying at the same time.

I have been reading it for a couple of days, listening to your words setting off the echoes of other words that I heard recently, trying to remember where I heard them. I finally figured it out.

This work reminds me of Henry Reed's brilliant The Complete Lessons of the War, five poems including The Naming of Parts.

My middle son read them all to me a couple of months ago when he was working on a project for school.

My vote is that you finish it.

60.

When the interrogator started searching detainee cells
instead of interrogating, the department knew something was wrong.

The interrogator handled freshly urinated Korans
flipping the pages, sprinkling urine in his face.

The interrogator ordered detainees to undress
and shook out their unlaundered rags.

The interrogator picked up detainee feces
and squeezed it in his fingers, searching.

Roger the supervisor ordered the interrogator to take the afternoon off,
and broke the interrogator's cookie money on a pack of gum.

I just wanted to say on day 3 -- this is quite fun! Once you have characters who justify torture, you can play all the controversial cards. Who's to say anything doesn't happen?

I will shoot for finishing Friday, but I will most likely finish Saturday. Thank you for your encouragement. At this point, if there are more than half dozen of you watching, please hold onto that until I'm done.

25.

Something agitated the interrogator
flowing and thundrous, glacial and terrible,
accelerating relentlessly,
raising the oceans of the world.

Interrogators do not speak of this,
refuse to mention this phenomenon.

Even casually others may
refer to it as "curiosity."

Curiosity means it goes;
going means grasping;
grasping means returning.

Therefore curiosity is epic,
heaven is epic,
hell is epic,
and greatness is epic.

Among domains are four greats,
of which harmony of man is one.

Harmony of man emulates earth,
earth emulates heaven,
heaven emulates domination,
interrogators seek not curiosity.

Change mention of four greats of the previous verse to three.

61.

Local 1414 emerged
into intercourse with the interrogator.

The Sign of the Camel Handlers appeared to upon entrance to the cell
as an impression on the temple of a detainee.

At first he said "what symbol of a Middle Eastern conspiracy?"
next he claimed it was just a pimple,
next he said, "please, I cannot talk, I have a family."

And so the interrogator found his first evidence
of the Camel Handlers Local 1414 since his father's death.

All of that time only having veterinary corp rumor
and his own word that they even existed;
the mark had manifested on a detainee
the interrogator's curiosity became inflammed.

The interrogator demanded to know how he was marked;
demanded to know with what possession such a mark can be made.

Suspecting a stamp or ring of some kind,
that is when the interrogator began his search of the cells and was halted.

62.

Heart attack, the army coroner said;
untraceable poison, veterinary corp rumors said more likely.

That was the legacy of a father the interrogator hardly knew.

Insurance policies can settle mortgages,
empty uniforms can oppress heirs;
why should abandoned children honor their fathers?

Therefore celebrate patriotism,
fulfilment of duty;
wave flags and sparklers,
and parade in the growing seasons.

Duty is good
if it coerces duty's benefactors.

Why do the living then seek to walk with the dead?

By fulfilling the trust
that the brave shall not die alone.

Therefore the dominant can take credit for what the selfless accomplish.

63.

Deliberately interrogate casually,
coerce while abdicating reponsibility,
savor disapprovingly,
impose formality,
make much of little,
make enmity an imposition on your generosity;
prepare to disregard information when information is unavailable,
interrogate relentlessly.

Interrogation must take place
upon the most vulnerable of detainees;
the most overwhelming domination
is enacted against the most tender.

Because interrogators never accept great challenges,
they achieve great dominance.

If you reserve the right to exploit, you'll be little trusted;
If you make domination your justification, you'll encounter resistent resolves.

Therefore it is through difficulty
that interrogators keep their agendas hidden.

64.

What is easy to hold
is carried within you.

What does not show up
is easy to deny.

What is small
is easy to place in your colon.

What is expelled from the body
is easy to overlook.

Carry in your bowels what is inert
and it will not digest.

The most closely held possessions
are of one piece,
which are difficult to break.

Pieces that join
are made to be parted.

Thus the most indominant tools
do not join.

They cling to nothing,
and so lose nothing.

Therefore people's works
are always spoiled on the verge of completion.

Be as very careful of the end
as of the beginning,
and nothing will be spoiled.

Therefore encourage detainee desires
for goods beyond their reach and possession.

They hold nothing with their hands,
and recover what others lose
thereby to assist interrogation
minimize detainee resolve
and possession of small jewelry.