My dad did 20 years in the Navy; and yes, the time after he got out was when my parents' marital problems really got bad. One reason why I've always been reluctant to get involved with an active serviceman.

Posted July 25, 2005 9:42 AM by Leslie

Soldiers at home can't always adjust either.

Though this article's focus is more on infidelity while deployed, divorces once they get home seem just as common.

In my own case the ex marine I was married to was still adjusting to a life with not being told what to do. He wanted his word to be law, regardless of the concequences. At first I ignored comment's like "He's not thinking right" but pretty soon it got to be too much.

Needless to say we aren't married anymore. I still find it amazing to watch the self-destructive behavior in other ex servicemen I meet. For me, it is a good arguement against wars we don't have to fight.

Posted July 25, 2005 10:45 AM by Michelle

Reminds me of how one of my mother's friends described retirement: half the money, double the husband.

Posted July 25, 2005 11:44 AM by Mary Root

My father, Legion (Free French) veteran and P.o.W., put it simply, "Soldiers hate civilians...they have it easy, while you're stuck out there."

He instilled in me a reflexive hatred of generals that I remember every time I hear people falling all over themselves praising Powell. I think, "That's a sure sign not enough of them are vets," (as if I were).

In many ways, he stayed a soldier until the day he died, in his hatred of inactivity and foolish display, and love of sleep and good food, in his reflexive improvisation, and in his wary (in some ways) engagement with civilian life even as he in his particular way excelled at it.

Posted July 25, 2005 2:44 PM by Michael Turyn

I was reading this point and thinking to myself, "hey, this sounds like a detail in a novel I read, which I recall thinking gave the book a feeling of authenticity."

And then I remembered that the novel was _Tiger Cruise_ and said "duh, no wonder."

Posted July 25, 2005 2:45 PM by Kate Nepveu

On a less serious note, there's the Firesign Theatre's hack

You ain't got no friends on the Left (You're Right!).
You ain't got no friends on the Right (You're Left!).
Hound dog (One two)
Poontang (Tree Frog)
Hound dog, poontang, coontown (I'se white!).

And S. Zielinski's [C ]programmer's version, which is 0-based instead of 1-based (0,1,2,3).

Posted July 25, 2005 2:52 PM by Michael Turyn

On the subject of Dear Johns: I never knew that there was a military history in these letters, because I only knew them in the context of Mormon missionaries. Zealous Mormon girls would swear to be true and "wait" for their boy for two whole years. Needless to say, the percentage that lasted was very small. (It might have been longer in generations before mine, but I have no idea. I did read some article that fetishized the girl-who-waits in Especially For Mormons. We were supposed to only seriously date returned missionaries, so what better way to nail down your future returned missionary than wait for him.)

When I was in my first year of college, we used to write Dear Johns to our male friends serving Mormon missions. Multiple Dear Johns, in fact, despite the fact that we weren't even their girlfriends. We figured it was part of our duty to make sure our male friends that had no girlfriends to perform the Dear John still got to take part of the quintessential mission experience. They usually got a huge kick out this, since it turned out there were bets to see who got the first Dear John in their districts, and reportedly our letters were read around the tables of the Missionary Training Center cafeteria. Some of their companions even solicited the Dear John letter as well. Some of them got downright creative in writing back, and one fellow threatened to kill himself in seven different ways simultaneously if his "love" was not requited.

(Note: We never Dear Johned anybody who might have taken it seriously. We aren't that cruel.)

Posted July 25, 2005 2:55 PM by PiscusFiche

I've heard the following words as a jody:

Nam myoho renge kyo!
Om mane padme hum!
Nam myoho renge kyo!
Om mane padme hum!
Sound off! Ha-re!
Sound off! Krish-na!
Bring it on down, Ha-re Krish-na!

Posted July 25, 2005 2:58 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

An aside: David "The Big Con" Maurer thought the original "Jody" came from "Oolong the Chinese Grind-boy" or "Chinese Joe the Grinder", the Chinese guy who stepped in on the gf when her man was in prison.

Might be 1898 or old China hand related (Maurer opines), or possibly opium (my guess, but it's not like Maurer didn't know opium slang).

And hey, I beat John M. Ford to it!

Posted July 25, 2005 2:58 PM by Carlos

Got me curious but not curious enough to go research it -- hey, I'm trying to be virtuous and do some work here! But what's the divorce rate for women in the military who leave husbands at home? Higher or lower? Are "Dear Jane" letters a similarly widespread phenomenon?

PiscusFische, that's hilarious...

Posted July 25, 2005 3:20 PM by Janet Croft

I suspect that the war will make it worse.

Nine months at sea, it's not necessarily safe, but there isn't the stress of people actively trying to kill you.

It took my grandfather, so my father tells me, most of the 1920s to get over being in a war.

And there are soldiers going back already.

Posted July 25, 2005 3:21 PM by Dave Bell

Got me curious but not curious enough to go research it -- hey, I'm trying to be virtuous and do some work here! But what's the divorce rate for women in the military who leave husbands at home? Higher or lower? Are "Dear Jane" letters a similarly widespread phenomenon?

I dunno about the divorce rate probably the same, but the letters probably lower, men just tend to leave without a note.

Yes, I'm bitter.

Posted July 25, 2005 3:32 PM by Michelle

I have a cousin in the Army who has recently gotten divorced. Since 2000 he's been to Bosnia, Afghanistan, North Korea, and Iraq (twice). (He wants out.)

How can someone handle that much stress for that long?

Posted July 25, 2005 4:16 PM by Michelle K

hmm, but the common prisoner jody is sancho, and he's been in at least one hit song.

Posted July 25, 2005 4:18 PM by bryan

". . .one fellow threatened to kill himself in seven different ways simultaneously if his 'love' was not requited. "

I can come up with four. . .no, five.

This relies on careful balance, such that the flaming guillotine, once the weight of my head is removed, tips off the edge of the cliff or building in question.

Posted July 25, 2005 4:32 PM by Sandy

A friend was in the army both before and after the WAC came to an end in 1978. Many jodies were officially "discarded" at that time, as they were deemed too offensive for mixed units to use. She notes with some pride that in many cases the ones the women were using were considered even more offensive than the ones the men had been using.

As for the real point of the original post; the US Army has been a garrison force for a long time now. Garrison forces can afford the luxuries of spouses and families. For the past several years, the US Army has been used far more as an expeditionary force, and expeditionary forces seem, in the minds of many planners, to exist in a sort of vacuum, without inconvenient attachments and distractions. I could, at this point, suggest that the neocons responsible for so much American foreign policy have perhaps confused the American miltary with the Roman legions or perhaps the French Foreign Legion, but working up a good snark takes more energy then I have to spare at present.

Posted July 25, 2005 5:15 PM by fidelio

Michelle K: How can someone handle that much stress for that long?

By reframing what "normal" is, and finding adaptive behaviors. And burning out adrenals and getting bleeding ulcers.

One vet told me he quickly learned to spot "canaries"--people who were unusually sensitive to coming trouble--and watch them. When they were relaxed, he relaxed. When they were jittery, he'd get stressed.

Posted July 25, 2005 5:16 PM by Aconite

"A more plausible source was suggested by Dick Kovar, in a pre-World War Two radio programme called Dear John . . ."

It's an interesting world where, while perusing a webpage, I come across something my father said on another.

Posted July 25, 2005 6:49 PM by Elspeth Kovar

Jim, I wonder if the Army has the support web for spouses that the Navy has.

Dave Bell, what do you think the torpedos, bombs, and missiles are trying to do?

Posted July 25, 2005 7:02 PM by Marilee

Marilee, I can tell you that Schofield Barracks has worked pretty hard to form support groups, and the Guard and Reserve out here has tried to do the same.

It's an odd turn of events when the Army (one year) is gone for longer deployments than the Marines (seven months). The old WestPac cruises were indeed nine months; sub cruises were six months afloat and six ashore.

Posted July 25, 2005 8:24 PM by Linkmeister

Marilee, the Navy has a history of long deployments without actual combat.

There's always the sea, and the Cold War meant that the possibility of was was lurking, but it wasn't the same as Iraq. It's not lurking possibilities of war, it's a shooting war in progress.

Posted July 26, 2005 1:27 AM by Dave Bell

I could, at this point, suggest that the neocons responsible for so much American foreign policy have perhaps confused the American miltary with the Roman legions or perhaps the French Foreign Legion, but working up a good snark takes more energy then I have to spare at present.

Myself I found quite persuasive Dr. Pournelle saying the army should stay home (Send the Marines if anybody but better nobody) but if this country is to be an empire we should indeed emulate the Legions and that means getting foreign levies and mercenaries (FFL) to do the actual bleeding - the Legion exists to intimidate after the manner of the British Raj. And beware the fury of the legions if.....

I could once have introduced you to a strong singer who got quite a dressing down for running his men through family quarters changing his accustomed route but not his song - as I recall the songs were quite popular on college campuses in the late 40's early 50's cleaned up for homecoming skits with a nod and a wink to the audience.

As for the Navy remember Mr. Roberts? and what happened to Thomas Heggen? There are a few boats still on patrol too.

Posted July 26, 2005 2:10 AM by Clark E Myers

Excuse me for taking this cheap shot, but someone has to...

How come "family-first" political parties are always the ones supporting any kind of war? I suppose it's "MY family first... then, maybe, our servicemen's".

Posted July 26, 2005 6:54 AM by Giacomo

Adultery is (or, at least, can be) much less of an issue for separated spouses when the couple has an open marriage.

Of course, to have an open relationship, it helps a whole lot to be (reasonably) adult. And, as noted above, a lot of the military marriages that fall apart or explode over adultery are, essentially, between teenagers.

Here's a link to an interesting discussion thread about open marriage and the military I came across.

(Personal note: I've known a number of people over the years who've had open marriages. Some go along forever with no problems. I've watched others explode in very, very ugly ways. So I'm not prescribing open marriage as a panacea. It can be difficult, and risky.)

Posted July 26, 2005 9:08 AM by Bruce Arthurs

The origin of Don't Ask, Don't Tell:

It's how to keep happy marriages happy through deployments.

Posted July 26, 2005 11:13 AM by James D. Macdonald

Giacomo: because their family values include "how to not get sent to war by using your family connections", perhaps?

I'm an Army brat. When I was born, it was near my grandparents' home, because my father was stationed in Korea; I got to be the "man of the house" for a year at the age of ten (Korea again); I got to spend the night before a final hearing that his new posting had just become an active war zone (SOUTHCOM, Panama, 1989).

Then he retired, so now I get to worry about my brother, instead. His daughter was born while he "attended" by phone from Iraq to Ft. Bragg; I saw her before he did.

What was that about blocking same-sex marriage because a child needs "a mommy and a daddy"?

Posted July 26, 2005 12:35 PM by Christopher Davis

Then too not within sight of the flag pole can help an awful lot.

Posted July 26, 2005 2:23 PM by Clark E Myers

Question for Jim or anyone else who knows: I thought REMF only applied to military desk men. Jim's close implies that civilians can qualify as well?

Posted July 27, 2005 2:56 AM by Jeff Porten

REMF (Rear Echelon MotherF*cker) is usually support staff and people who stayed home. Maybe POG would have been better (Person Other than Grunt). Dunno.

Posted July 27, 2005 8:52 AM by James D. Macdonald

". . .one fellow threatened to kill himself in seven different ways simultaneously if his 'love' was not requited. "

I can come up with four. . .no, five.

Razors, rivers, acids, drugs, guns, nooses, gas.

Posted July 27, 2005 9:58 AM by Mary Dell

oopsie - this bit of the above post: I can come up with four. . .no, five. is a quote from Sandy. I put my itals in the wrong place, which makes it look like I can't count.

Posted July 27, 2005 10:04 AM by Mary Dell

Marilee:

Being in the service means accepting that you have agreed to let other people try to kill you.

But Russians having guns is not the same as those same Russians shooting them at me.

On adjusting:

I've been back for two years now (I just passed the anniversary of my leaving theatre, the 21st of June is a glorious day).

Last night Maia woke me up (sleeping the sleep of the jet-lagged) badly, and I kicked the person below me on the couch. I'm mostly adjusted back to being home, but I have moments (the styrofoam cup I didn't think about, merely noted afterwards that I'd avoided while driving down the street) when I am not quite right (in the context of being a civilian).

REMF is anyone further back than you are.

TK

Posted July 27, 2005 10:07 AM by Terry.karney

Therefore, to someone on point, the entire world consists of enemies and REMFs, конечно?

Posted July 27, 2005 11:15 AM by Michael Turyn

Jim:

The origin of Don't Ask, Don't Tell:
It's how to keep happy marriages happy through deployments.

Then too not within sight of the flag pole can help an awful lot.

Posted July 27, 2005 11:24 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

I thought the key word there was "simultaneously."

Five is easy, if you can get a good poisonous venomous snake.

Posted July 27, 2005 3:59 PM by Sandy

I thought the key word there was "simultaneously."

No problem! Tie a noose from a tree branch over a river, but make sure the rope is really long. Park your car nearby with the exhaust blowing in your general direction; down some slow-acting pills. Hop onto a horse that's standing in the river, put the noose around your neck. After making sure that the horse is wearing protective waders, dump an enormous vat of acid into the river. With a straight razor in one hand and a gun in the other, have at yourself; the noise from the gun will scare the horse, causing it to run off and leave you to hang, with your head underwater thanks to the extra-long rope.

Of course, it might take some practice to get it right.

Posted July 27, 2005 10:39 PM by Mary Dell

Sandy said:
I thought the key word there was "simultaneously."

That can be done with razors, rivers, acids, drugs, guns, nooses, and gas.

You put razor blades in the noose, turn on the gas and take a lethal drug, then set up the acid to spill on you and eat through the rope once you step off the platform and tighten the noose. The rope burning through sets off a gun, which shoots you as you fall into the river.

Not that that's what Dorothy Parker had in mind, exactly.

(Composed this as Mary was writing hers - I think her horse adds a nice Rube Goldberg touch that my scenario is missing.)

Posted July 27, 2005 10:49 PM by oliviacw

My Depression-raised parents instilled in my inward places a compulsion to economise and improvise; as such, I rebuke ye slackards, for failing to notice that you can make the noose out of a sufficiently long poisonous snake---the only trick is to keep it from striking until the Crucial Moment.

Posted July 27, 2005 11:28 PM by Michael Turyn

That can be done with razors, rivers, acids, drugs, guns, nooses, and gas.

Extra credit if you can determine how to hang yourself with both belt and braces. Separately.

There's probably a Rube Goldberg parody in this ("Tuning fork C shatters glass D, showering determined perpetrator A with fragments, one of which severs rope E, releasing brakes on steamroller F. . .")

Posted July 28, 2005 12:27 AM by John M. Ford

And who could forget

Bart: I got a B in arithmetic.
Army: I got a B in arithmetic.
Bart: Would have got an A but I was sick.
Army: Would have got an A but I was sick.

Bart: We are rubber, you are glue.
Army: We are rubber, you are glue.
Bart: It bounces off of us and sticks to you.
Army: It bounces off of us and sticks to you.
Bart: Sound off.
Army: One! Two!
Bart: Sound off!
Army: Three!! Four!!

Bart: In English class I did the best.
Army: In English class I did the best.
Bart: Because I cheated on the test.
Army: Because I cheated on the test.
Bart: Sound off.
Army: One! Two!
Bart: I can't hear you!
Army: Three!! Four!!

Bart: We are happy, we are merry.
Army: We are happy, we are merry.
Bart: We got a rhyming dictionary.
Army: We got a rhyming dictionary.
Bart: Sound off.
Army: One! Two!
Bart: One more time!
Army: Three! Four!
Bart: Bring it on home now!
Army: One! Two! Three! Four!
One! Two! ... Three-Four!

Posted July 28, 2005 12:27 AM by Chris

Michael Turyn: My Depression-raised parents instilled in my inward places a compulsion to economise and improvise; as such, I rebuke ye slackards, for failing to notice that you can make the noose out of a sufficiently long poisonous snake---the only trick is to keep it from striking until the Crucial Moment.

No, no, no. Do they not teach logistics anymore? The trick is to make sure it strikes you sufficiently in advance of the Crucial Moment that the effects of the venom are fatal at just the right time. Obviously, some experience in herpetology is necessary for correct identification of the snake, else the timing will be off.

Posted July 28, 2005 7:31 AM by Aconite

A coral snake would work well, there--quite deadly, and yet because of their small size they tend to settle for biting hands and feet, so it takes a while for the poison to get to the heart/nervous system. You might want to use two or three, though, just to be sure you got enough venom--as I said, they're small.

Posted July 28, 2005 8:14 AM by fidelio

Or perhaps a krait, if one is in India. Possible extra points while drowning oneself -- eating pufferfish or stepping on stonefish.

Which of course leads to the Preparing a Tasty Deadly Dinner discussion -- various mushrooms, fugu and ... there must be more!

Posted July 28, 2005 9:12 AM by Tom Whitmore

I was going to quibble about exactly when you would have "committed" suicide---is it when you die, or when you do something which, if you're left unaided will kill you...or when you commit yourself to such a course?---when I shied back because I didn't want to further derail (more than I'd helped do) a serious discussion of the trouble and pain endured by separated military families.

Then I remembered that this whole thread started with Jodies and Dear Johns, so this is a generally military thread. And I also thought, "Isn't the question of just when one has actually _committed_ suicide immediately relevant to our national military policy of the past few years?"

I'm partisan and biased and cynical and tired, so with luck my flip answer to that question, "November, 2004," is wrong.

(And, yes, I have considered that you've "committed" suicide the moment you can't do a rollback of it.)

Posted July 28, 2005 9:20 AM by Michael Turyn

And remember that suicide is the only offense one can only be prosecuted for failing to commit.

Posted July 28, 2005 9:40 AM by John M. Ford

JMF: Well, that's true today. Suicide was punishable in ancient times by dispossession of the heirs...an effective deterrent to some financially-driven suicides, I should think.

Posted July 28, 2005 10:51 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

And remember that suicide is the only offense one can only be prosecuted for failing to commit.

What about attempted murder?

Posted July 28, 2005 11:53 AM by Mary Aileen Buss

Attempted robbery? Attempted assault and battery?

Posted July 28, 2005 12:23 PM by Aconite

Greatly enjoyed premiere of Bochco series last night on FX: "Over There." First TV series about a war -- during the war? Others saw it, want to comment?

Posted July 28, 2005 2:39 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

Mary & Aconite: Take a closer look at the second only in that phrase.

Peter Cook as the Devil in Bedazzled: "Attempted suicide is a crime, you know. In a less enlightened time, they'd have hung you for it."

Posted July 28, 2005 3:30 PM by Clifton Royston

I'm torn between admiring the exact parallelism and nitpicking details, like "can a noose which does not hold one up be said to strangle you, especially if one is underwater?"

Beating seven is hard. . . I can tie it, though, with the Rasputin Finale:

1. Poisoned tea .
2. shot -in the "takes time to die" sense, the liver or something
3. Stabbed - again, slashed wrists or something else slow.
4. bludgeoned- I'm imagining stepping into the path of a 20-pound bowling ball pendulum, which would result in
5. falling two stories from a balcony. There would need to be some sort of cart at the bottom, rolling downhill to a freezing river in order to finish with
6. frozen and
7. drowned.

Posted July 28, 2005 3:43 PM by Sandy

Clifton: I now see what you mean--attempted burglary is not the same crime as burglary, yes? Thanks for the pointer. My head was full of oatmeal this morning.

Posted July 28, 2005 3:58 PM by Aconite

I wonder about whether there's a correlation between Dear John letters and soldier suicides in Iraq (rather than suddenly being exposed to the other horrors of war).

Posted July 28, 2005 4:17 PM by James D. Macdonald

I can't remember all seven that Elder K had in his letter, but I know that a really long extension cord and a toaster were involved. And sharks. And a rather Rube Goldbergian sort of sequence of events. But you're probably right that technically they can't be all simultaneous.

Posted July 28, 2005 6:00 PM by PiscusFiche

And remember that suicide is the only offense one can only be prosecuted for failing to commit.

What about attempted murder?

Nope. You can't be punished for failing to commit attempted murder.

Posted July 28, 2005 6:02 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

Clifton: You are absolutely correct. I thought afterwards that his statement needed a second 'only' to be true, and by jings it has one!

--Mary Aileen (not 'Mary', please--I have to remember to sign these)

Posted July 28, 2005 6:18 PM by Mary Aileen Buss

"Simultaneous? Ve don't need no steenkeen simulaneous..." -- Albert Einstein

On another matter, I've had several discussions with attorneys on this, and frankly don't recall the convoluted reasoning. But. In some jurisdictions, suicide is a felony. In some of those, failure to try to stop a felony is a misdemeanor. So, in theory, it can be a crime to not stop an attempted suicide.

Slippery slope here is defined by the final episode of The Seinfeld Show.

Posted July 28, 2005 6:55 PM by Jonathan Vos Post

One of the sole two Legion marching songs my father mentioned to me had the memorable lines

France is your mother!
The Legion is your father!
It is he who feeds you on beans and rotten pork!

Posted August 5, 2005 8:05 AM by Michael Turyn