Fortunately for my soul, if the Gretnans ever show up in my neighborhood looking for refuge, they probably won't say "Hello, we're from Gretna," they'll just be there and we'll take care of them.

Posted September 16, 2005 2:59 PM by Vicki

I wonder if I can get a bulk discount for floggings if I buy them all at once...

Posted September 16, 2005 3:05 PM by Greg London

Is there anything more than this which needs to be said?

Matthew 25:31-46

Maybe it ought to be put on postcards which can be posted to the Mayor and people of Gretna.

Posted September 16, 2005 3:24 PM by Dave Bell

Is this not what shunning was invented for? I would like to see the state of Louisiana shun the town of Gretna, but that's my inner Erinyes talkin'.

Posted September 16, 2005 3:28 PM by Ingrid de Beus

maybe we should leave New Orleans underwater and relocate everyone to Gretna.

Posted September 16, 2005 3:32 PM by Greg London

Greg, I think the good people of New Orleans have suffered enough, don't you?

Posted September 16, 2005 3:39 PM by Andrew Willett

As a side note, I would like to alert all EMTs, paramedics, and other emergency workers of the person from Hagerstown who has said that he doesn't want to live near "people like that"--that, in fact, he supports the decision of another town to use guns to keep paramedics out.

Posted September 16, 2005 3:47 PM by Vicki

Thanks PNH for this. I will note that I posted the link in the Superdomes thread earlier today, but this is where it belongs, front and center.

Posted September 16, 2005 3:54 PM by hrc

This happens. I'm actually (as is frequently the case) hugely behind on reading several threads here, and I sometimes worry that I might appear to be throwing links up onto the front page without giving due credit to commenters who spotted them first.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:02 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Contact info for the City of Gretna:

http://www.gretnala.com/contact/contact.html

City of Gretna
P.O. Box 404
Gretna, LA, 70054-0404

Phone: (504) 363-1505
Fax: (504) 363-1509
E mail: rharris@gretnala.com

Posted September 16, 2005 4:05 PM by David Moles

Here in Virginia, you need to have a little tax sticker from your town on your windshield. I have no idea if Louisiana does things in a similar fashion, but it occurred to me that it's going to a generation or more before it's safe to park a car in New Orleans that bears evidence of residing in Gretna.

Ugh. It's one thing to be horrible; quite another to be proud of it.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:10 PM by alex

from: http://www.gretnapolice.com/

Mission Statement

The City of Gretna Police Department's mission is to prevent crime and maintain order while affording dignity and respect to all individuals; to protect lives and property while safe guarding constitutional guarantees, committed to the delivery of police services in the most efficient, fairest, responsive and ethical manner possible to impartially enforce all laws and ordinances, while enhancing the quality of life for all citizens through new and innovative approaches to problem solving and crime prevention; with a sensitivity to the priorities and needs of the people; and to promote professionalism and pride among employees of the City of Gretna Police Department.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:18 PM by Joy Freeman

I've spent 20+ years working with folks who are forced or choose to live outside the system (often with good reason) and have to say that despite my devout desire to be able to say that nothing shocks me anymore...I'm shocked. Not as shocked as I was when, while waiting for our kids at the bus stop, a neighbor (who's husband had been laid off that day) pointed to my youngest son and the house with the new neighbors from India and screamed that "the f-cking brown people" were ruining America. That was last spring and I'm still speechless (am anomaly I assure you). I so love suburbia and the inhabitants desperate need to feel good about themselves while screwing others to the wall. FOr the record, I pointed out to my son that he'd just had a taste of racism, he was puzzled and told her he was actually black. She said "black, brown, whatever". The real shocking thing, the other moms all covered for her saying she was simply "in shock".

Posted September 16, 2005 4:22 PM by amysue

The city council and citizenry may support it, but I wonder if the Lousiana Attorney General will feel the same way? I'm not sure what they could prosecuted for, but I'm sure a clever attorney could come up with something.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:27 PM by Jon Hansen

If they can't get 'em on civil rights violations, I'm wondering if there are jurisdictional issues involved. They obviously weren't in "fresh pursuit" of a suspect, nor were they invited in by NOLA officials.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:33 PM by Andy Vance

If they can't get 'em on civil rights violations, I'm wondering if there are jurisdictional issues involved. They obviously weren't in "fresh pursuit" of a suspect, nor were they invited in by NOLA officials.

Indeed, aren't all citizens legally permitted to travel freely within the 50 states?

Posted September 16, 2005 4:43 PM by Janni

Don't you know that the only part of Leviticus which matters is the part about hatin' queers? Jeez, get with the program.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:44 PM by Kevin J. Maroney

When I lived in St. Louis, there were people who were opposed to bus service being extended into the outer suburbs, because, like, non-affluent, non-white people might actually be able to go there.

This seems hard for me to believe, now. I tend to forget this from time to time, just how deep racism still runs in much of the country, and just how overt it can be.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:47 PM by Janni

>Is there anything more than this which needs to be said?

To Greg London: Greg, do you want to argue that the actions and attitudes of the Gretna citizenry aren't an indicator of the problem of racism? Do you believe the police response would have been the same to a group of storm refugees with mostly white faces?

I think this is a component of what Lucy was trying to get at in the Superdomes thread.

Posted September 16, 2005 4:52 PM by Lenny Bailes

This is vile. They're willing to let helpless refugees die in the street, purely because they've terrified themselves with fantasies about what "those people" would do to them if they ever got a chance.

What kind of idiots are they? Do they not understand that in the real world, failing to honor the social contract makes them significantly less safe?

Posted September 16, 2005 4:54 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Do you think they went to Church on Sunday?

Posted September 16, 2005 4:57 PM by fjm

Business owners on International Drive in Orlando nixed light rail. One of the rumored reasons was that, "... it would allow an undesirable element into the area."

Posted September 16, 2005 5:05 PM by Mark Wise

there were people who were opposed to bus service being extended into the outer suburbs, because, like, non-affluent, non-white people might actually be able to go there.

I've met this also: there are people in areas of LA who don't want mass transit in their areas because it might bring in 'those people'; never mind that 'those people' are living close to the proposed routes already, and need them to get to work, school, or shopping. (Then there are the religious ones who don't want mass transit because the noise/vibration will disturb their prayers: God doesn't hear what they're thinking?) The city of Hidden Hills was up in arms a few years back because they were told that to get funding for one of their pet projects they had to provide affordable housing. They turned it down - the housekeepers and gardeners have to come in from miles away.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:07 PM by P J Evans

Um. I can't write anything cogent; my heart hurts and I'm so ashamed, and angry at the same time. I remember that Jesus looked down at the people who had driven nails into him and hung him on wood to die and prayed for them, because the stupid idiots didn't know what they had done. It doesn't help -- I'm still angry. Probably he was too. He prayed for them anyway.

Take a look at the speech by Bill Moyers; you can find it at www.ThomPaine.com (I tried to print the link here and my computer informed me my modem was broken. I had to turn it off and let it rest. It's an old computer.) It's a speech about the religious right. It has nothing directly to do with Gretna but you should read it anyway, because to my mind there is a connection with the nationalism and triumphalism of the religious right and the racist, self-righteous, MEAN attitude of the folks in Gretna. It's a very scary analysis, and it also makes me pretty angry. I'm a pretty serious radical/progressive/liberal/leftist Catholic, and what Bill Moyers is saying is what I would like the bishops of my church to be saying -- or at least, acknowledging. Instead, they're getting in bed with Dobson, et. al.

Oh well, guess I'm just gonna be pissed off for a while.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:21 PM by Lizzy Lynn

You know, in the interest of civility and saving time, I'll just disemvowel myself here - I remember in the late nineties when I used to go days at a time without the phrase "crckrss mthrfckrs" popping up in my head.

Those were good days. I miss them.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:22 PM by julia

Lizzy Lynn's link:
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/the_delusional_is_no_longer_marginal.php

Posted September 16, 2005 5:26 PM by P J Evans

The crime you're probably thinking of is "depraved indifference to human life". I suspect a civil rights suit might have a better chance.

Theresa: I am willing to bet you that the social contract many of the residents of Gretna subscribe to has the power flowing in only one direction. The most frustrating thing is that it's a given that the people responsible for this decision will use their well-deserved criticism to fertilize their sense of persecution, to hold themselves up as defenders of all that is good. Perhaps in twenty years they may feel some shame, but right now it has crystalized as an un-teachable moment.

Psychologically, they have to have either made the right decision, or take responsibility for many preventable deaths.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:28 PM by alex

Would eminent domain allow the State of Louisiana to confiscate the land on which Gretna rests so that part of New Orleans can be relocated there?

Posted September 16, 2005 5:28 PM by James Nicoll

I believe this is the article Lizzy Lynn refers to:

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/20050909/911_and_the_sport_of_god.php

Posted September 16, 2005 5:30 PM by JC

"Do you think they went to Church on Sunday?"

Oh, sure. Question was, was anybody home there?

* * *

Something that gives me hope is the good possibility that Michael Moore is to set a nice big chunk of his next documentary in Greta.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:34 PM by Stefan Jones

Teresa writes: Do they not understand that in the real world, failing to honor the social contract makes them significantly less safe?

It's worse than that. From their demented perspective, the social contract was already broken and they were simply responding to circumstances with an escalation in force that they still contend was appropriate. The real question is how much appetite they have for continued escalation before they will finally consider a regimen of cooperate threat reduction to prevent total civil war.

I'm beginning to think that some of these folks will not be coming to the bargaining table unless they are held at gunpoint.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:39 PM by j h woodyatt

The ostensible danger of letting "those people" in is that they will get out of control and destroy your property.

The real danger of letting them in is that you might actually get to know them. That would require you to care about them. It would also remind you of your own vulnerability. That means you can't avoid recognizing the social contract, and therefore it is far more dangerous to the complacent than property crime.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:47 PM by enjay

It's not really fantastical thought processes -- they are themselves, after all, demonstrably in favor of leaving the halt and the afflicted to die in preference to the risk of inconvenience, so the expectations of having every man's hand turned against them is something like reasonable -- as the self-reinforcing conviction of being subject to unjust persecution.

Getting rid of that sort of thing is really hard to do; you have to obliterate the culture that produces it.

Posted September 16, 2005 5:51 PM by Graydon

You know what this reminds me of--in Lanzman's brilliant documentary about the Holocaust, he interviewed people who still live around various concentration camp sites. And a bunch of Polish women actually said, "The Jews used to have these houses. Now we have them." And laughed. Same lack of humanity, and nothing learned from the lessons of history.

Posted September 16, 2005 6:01 PM by jane

Getting rid of that sort of thing is really hard to do; you have to obliterate the culture that produces it.

Which may or may not be true, but is somewhat less than helpful, since the reaction of most people to hearing something like that aimed in their general direction is highly unlikely to be, "Oh, my yes, you're certainly right. I'll just go do my bit by putting a plastic bag over my head right now." And the sort of externally-imposed force it takes to obliterate entire cultures is neither fast, nor pretty, nor cheap in any coin you care to pay.

Posted September 16, 2005 6:03 PM by Debra Doyle

Teresa: In the south, the social contract doesn't apply to nggrs. They aren't really human you know. Don't feel pain the same way we do; need less than we do. Really, they're just animals and you know, animals en masse, can be dangerous to human beings.

Where do I go to resign from the human race?

MKK

Posted September 16, 2005 6:18 PM by Mary Kay

How does one do mass mailings? How many people are there in Gretna? How much would it cost to send every one of them a postcard which says,

"I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

You'll notice I cut out the hellfire bits. I don't approve of them, personally. I wonder if it would elicit any shame. (Practically speaking, the passage probably needs some slight abridgment.)

Posted September 16, 2005 6:19 PM by Lydy Nickerson

If I wanted to live with people like that I would. But I don’t and I expect our local governemnt and police to ensure our security.

Yeah, it'd be a real tragedy if any kind of Culture found its way to fucking Hagerstown.

Listen up, Hagerstown: You're nothing without your wee outlet mall. Nothing.

Posted September 16, 2005 6:22 PM by Dan Layman-Kennedy

Debra says:

And the sort of externally-imposed force it takes to obliterate entire cultures is neither fast, nor pretty, nor cheap in any coin you care to pay.

It's the first idea I've seen for aid for Katrina victims that I might give some foriegn aid to.

Posted September 16, 2005 6:43 PM by Niall McAuley

It's the first idea I've seen for aid for Katrina victims that I might give some foriegn aid to.

Give the money to Habitat for Humanity instead. That way you're less likely to alienate people who might otherwise agree with you.

Posted September 16, 2005 6:50 PM by Debra Doyle

Mary Kay,

I've enjoyed lurking here for some time, but your post requires a response because it's all too typical of "progressive" America's response to the South. Admittedly, the South is home to many racists. Unfortunately, so is the rest of the United States. Generalizations of the sort in your post are the worst kind of Othering. They posit a reified South that is White, homogeneous, and "nggr hating," thereby turning it into a convenient dumping ground for all the uncomfortable beliefs and behaviors that taint the rest of the nation as well. They let people say, "It's them, not us. We're not like that." But isn't that precisely what racists do to people of other ethnicities? Isn’t that precisely what you are accusing this supposedly homogeneous South of doing to people of color?

Understand that I am not excusing the despicable behavior of the authorities in Gretna. Not at all. I'm just pointing out that blanket generalizations about "the South" take us nowhere.

SW

Posted September 16, 2005 6:50 PM by Scott

Lydy, I think that's a really good idea. The LA Times says that the population of Gretna is 17,500. That's a very do-able mass mailing.

A church could do it at bulk rates.

Posted September 16, 2005 6:52 PM by Beth Meacham

Lydy: look at the Postal Service's online guides. What you want is a Carrier Route Sort where a piece is delivered to every address on a route.

You can grab a list of all the carrier routes, for all the Zip Codes in Gretna. That will also give the number of delivery addresses.

If you're serious, the USPS business mail office will gladly point you at the resources you need.

Most commercial printers can produce this mailing for you, send them camera-ready art, and it'll be dropped into the postal processing stream.

I'd send a different message to them, but it wouldn't be allowed under USPS rules. :)

Posted September 16, 2005 6:54 PM by Bill Humphries

How many people are there in Gretna? How much would it cost to send every one of them a postcard

For the record, there are a little over 17,000 residents of Gretna. Several of them are my relatives, including my grandparents.

Also for the record, I think that what happened on the bridge was a terrible thing, and I have nothing but contempt for anyone who tries to justify it.

However, those who react as if the beliefs of 17,000 thousand people are all spoken for by the actions of a few - even (or maybe especially) if those few are the elected officials of those people - run the risk of making the exact same mistake they are accusing the people of Gretna of doing.

Ask yourself, when you read what the mayor of Gretna has said, how much of what comes out of Bush's mouth applies to you, simply because you happen to be an American?

Hopefully I have not lost Patrick and Teresa's goodwill in saying so, but speaking of hate-mailing and flogging and whatever else to the entire city of Gretna while my grandparents and aunts and uncles had done nothing but leave, and now wait, scattered to the winds, to see if they can come home again, to see if they have anything to come home to... well, let's just say it strikes a nerve.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:00 PM by Leigh Butler

Scott: Mary Kay grew up in Oklahoma. She speaks from experience.

I grew up on the borderland of the South and Southwest. My great-great-great grandfather had his arse handed to him by Grant's army. While I'm a little younger than Mary Kay, I can confirm those attitudes were present, even in supposedly civilized, middle class suburbs of Dallas filled with college graduates and engineers.

And while you'll see the same attitudes in Boston, LA, and other 'Union' cities, they don't romanticize 'Dixie,' or the 'Stars and Bars.'

They may cling to copies of The Bell Curve or Losing Ground, but those are nowhere as powerful as totems.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:01 PM by Bill Humphries

Fine. Let's not hate-mail the City of Gretna. Let's send them a quiet, civilized entreaty asking whether this is really the sort of behavior they want their names attached to. And citing Matthew 25.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:08 PM by David Moles

Not the entire city, then, but the City Council members who passed the resolution, and anyone else who may be specifically quoted in the article? I'd suggest an ad in their local paper, but the chances of it being accepted seem slim.

An abridgement:

"Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee . . . and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall he answer them, saying . . . Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

Posted September 16, 2005 7:17 PM by Leslie

Bill -- playing the "more Southern than thou" game is probably a bad idea in this crowd.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:28 PM by Debra Doyle

Debra, alienate isn't the word. I am an alien, a foreigner, a being with no human rights in your country. Anyone over there who thinks like me is already alienated.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:29 PM by Niall McAuley

Niall: It wasn't particularly your potential -- or, for that matter, actual -- alienation that I was concerned about.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:32 PM by Debra Doyle

also, Oklahoma, home to many fine people though it be, is not part of the South.

Posted September 16, 2005 7:49 PM by pericat

I kinda doubt there's anyone in Greta who, if you said "social contract" in their hearing, would have more than the vaguest idea of your meaning. It doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that's much discussed, generally. Not like the permutations of meaning of the phrase "property rights".

If I were Running Things, I'd want to know by what right of law the police in that area drew and fired upon what was, in essence, a group of travellers on a public road, and I would be strongly insisting on their being made to answer for their conduct. In the meantime, I'd also implement an orderly cessation of all federal services and monies to the township whose mayor and council evidently approved this action, including postal services.

This social contract stuff ain't just for the benefit of the poor, and the Constitution's got more words in it than those concerning the right to keep and bear arms.

Posted September 16, 2005 8:00 PM by pericat

Please, not another round of bashing-the-South alternating with bashing-the-bashers.

It is certainly true that the South has no exclusive on racism, nor was the South the only part of the country to prosper from slavery. (Point to the South.) It is also true that the antebellum Southern ruling class was the epitome of an "honor culture" in which the stupid rise to the top and stay there. (Point against the South.) It is also true that the plantation culture wasn't the whole of Southern life. (Point to the South.) It is also true that it's wrong to tar whole peoples, or even whole towns of 17,500, with the misdeeds of the powerful few. And it is also true that sometimes people get angry and don't express themselves perfectly, even when the anger itself is quite justified.

I believe that covers most of the bases.

Scott says to Mary Kay that "generalizations of the sort in your post are the worst kind of Othering." I respectfully submit that, actually, there are many, many far worse kinds of Othering than growling angrily in a weblog comment thread. Perspective, please.

Leigh Butler writes "Hopefully I have not lost Patrick and Teresa's goodwill in saying so, but speaking of hate-mailing and flogging and whatever else to the entire city of Gretna", etc., etc. I would say to Leigh Butler that the only threat to general good will here is in the puzzling attribution to Patrick and Teresa of remarks made by other people. Or perhaps Leigh Butler could point to those posts in which Patrick or Teresa suggested hate-mailing, flogging, etc.?

Posted September 16, 2005 8:10 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

As a resident of Chicago during the late '70s, I would like to firmly endorse the point that the South has had no monopoly on racism, nor on institutionalizing racism within its public institutions, nor specifically on dangerously shortsighted and trigger-happy cops jeopardizing everybody's' lives in the name of "maintaining public safety." Have things progressed so much elsewhere in our happy nation? I would be pleasantly surprised, if so.

Posted September 16, 2005 8:38 PM by Clifton Royston

"I'd send a different message to them, but it wouldn't be allowed under USPS rules."

The message I'd prefer to send is best delivered by unmanned air vehicles.

Posted September 16, 2005 8:47 PM by j h woodyatt

Debra --

The usual effective way to obliterate cultures doesn't involve obliterating the people; it involves arranging things so their grand children laugh at their views. (Parts of Ontario used to be coated in Orange lodges; something, something I wish was a heck of a lot better studied, caused them to die of embarrassment sometime between 1950 and 1965.)

Which ties in pretty strongly to the hatred of empiricism any culture in that pattern shows. (And why cultures in that pattern fake empiricism -- only if you really don't get the idea of falsification as a test for validity would you either attach moral authority to measurement or create something like "The Bell Curve" in an effort to recover moral authority for the basis of empirically falsified views.)

This particular pattern is strongly associated with particular mutations of what Jane Jacobs calls Guardian ideas being used to organize domestic society; this creates an axiom that all change is an attack. (Very very common historically; only not in the strong majority in affluent sections of industrial and late pre-industrial cultures.)

The positive guardian idea of conservatism -- most change is bad, so be really careful not to trade what you have for something worse; maintain and husband all things of value -- can readily become all change is bad. Coupled with a conviction that one's position in the social hierarchy defines your worth in your own eyes, that becomes beliefs that social position is deserved, for both the people doing well and the people who aren't doing well. (the other guardian ideas mutate horribly, too, and so do the Trader ideas but, heh, someone smarter than me already wrote a book about that.)

There isn't anything, short of road-to-Damascus level conversion experiences, that will change those attitudes in adults.

Those attitudes are extremely bad at managing complexity, and industrial and post-industrial society are effectively machines for generating complexity.

A culture -- the network of inter-relating and inter-reinforcing ideas that support particular social hierarchies, ways of organizing groups, ways of ganging up on problems -- that treats all change as bad and material security as morally deserved is in many respects independent of the individuals that make it up. Cultures, like genes, are successful in as much as they get themselves into the future.

Which means, on the one hand, that you can obliterate a culture just fine by interfering with how it gets into the future, and that on the other, killing people doesn't help.

Embarrassing people -- which the biblical quotation postcards ought to do -- can help, though. The knowledge that the rest of the band thinks you're being a putz can have a strong influence on a band-forming ground ape.

And yeah, this is terribly intellectualized; my emotional reaction is that it would be appropriate to get a bunch of bulldozers and raze Gretna to the ground and put up big signs with the biblical verse about how those without charity have nothing.

I know that would be, in some meaningful sense, unfair; I know that would be unhelpful, too, because it would only reinforce the cultural conviction of being under attack.

I also know that the concern for cultural obliteration is a real one, and something that ought to be faced more squarely -- having a cosmopolitan, empirical, rationalist, meritocratic, contextual hierarchy, inclusive culture does mean getting rid of, destroying, xenophobic, revealed knowledge, doctrinal, hereditary, rigid hierarchy, class/caste based cultures.

It's worth doing, if you except empirical measures of value (life span, health, access to meaningful exercise of choice, learning, travel, material prosperity...) and very much wrong if you don't.

There isn't any way to change that wrong reaction for significant numbers of adults on the mutant-guardian side of things, either. So, sure, it's not helpful, but then again nothing is -- inside the worldview and moral system they're using, those folks with guns on the bridge were doing the right thing.

Inside the moral system I'm using, the fewer moral systems on the planet that will make a choice to prevent the escape of their fellow citizens from disaster on irrational grounds, the better.

It's not like the Gretna PD's contribution is even, probably, statistically significant in terms of the death toll contributions from using revealed-knowledge decision making processes. It's not like it's even the most wrong.

But it's a scale of wrong that's small enough to get my mind around, and it's a kind of wrong that's really, directly against the mores of my oft-at-risk-of-freezing tribe, and that makes it easier to be really, actively angry about it.

Posted September 16, 2005 9:15 PM by Graydon

Whatever else we might wish to call them, the Mayor and other elected officials in Gretna are politicians. If the people who are qualified to elect them don't vote for them, they're out of a job.

Mail to electors is an entirely normal way of attempting to persaude them to cast their votes in a particular way.

But can you guarantee the counting of the votes?

Personally, I reckon their are better things to spend money on.

Posted September 16, 2005 9:21 PM by Dave Bell

Debra: I didn't want to get in a out-southerning match. I'd lose. I'm more Californian than anything else these days.

Just saying that I was there, saw the culture.

Posted September 16, 2005 9:28 PM by Bill Humphries

Patrick says:

I would say to Leigh Butler that the only threat to general good will here is in the puzzling attribution to Patrick and Teresa of remarks made by other people. Or perhaps Leigh Butler could point to those posts in which Patrick or Teresa suggested hate-mailing, flogging, etc.?

Leigh Butler apologizes for the confusing construction of the sentence referred to. Leigh Butler was not trying to imply that Patrick or Teresa had said either of those things.

Leigh Butler was trying to say that she hoped that neither of them would take it amiss that she expressed, in their forum, an opposing opinion to those who had said such things, since to all evidence, while neither Patrick nor Teresa had said these things specifically, Leigh Butler construed from the context and tone of the original post (e.g., such widely-inclusive phrases as "the people of Gretna, Louisiana have behaved as selfishly as any gangster"), and lack of dissent expressed following the comments herein referred, that they might not necessarily be in disagreement with such sentiments, and certainly, at the least, appeared to share the perception that the entire population of Gretna was responsible for what happened on the bridge that day.

Perceiving this, perhaps as erroneously as Patrick appears to have taken Leigh Butler's clumsy phrasing, Leigh Butler concluded that Patrick and/or Teresa might, therefore, be inclined to lash out at the poster (i.e. Leigh Butler) who expressed said opposition - or, perhaps, choose to focus, with what she interprets as condescending formality, on a perceived insult rather than on the meat of her argument - and attempted, via aforementioned wish for retention of goodwill, to head such unpleasantness off at the pass.

Leigh Butler furthermore notes that her concern on this matter does not appear to have been misplaced, and regretfully withdraws from further participation in the thread, with the caveat that this is mostly because her computer at home is broken, and she will not be able to see replies to this comment, if any, until Monday, by which time she hopes this will have blown over anyway.

Posted September 16, 2005 9:37 PM by Leigh Butler

Gosh, Leigh. I hope you come back. (Or, rather, that your computer lets you come back.) You brought me up short in my fulminations against The Town Of Gretna and made me realize it, well, wasn't an abstraction, but an actual place.

Sometimes, that gets lost.

Posted September 16, 2005 9:57 PM by kate

There isn't any way to change that wrong reaction for significant numbers of adults on the mutant-guardian side of things, either.

How many reactions do you need to change for it to be significant? The social and sexual lifestyle rebellions of a minority, in the '60s, had a significant ripple effect on the "silent majority" reaction to the notion of "living in sin." The ripple effect was abetted by viability of the entertainment media of the time -- for artists to spread good evangelical art into a wide number of niches.

Relaxing the rigidity of "family values" in American life isn't the same thing as erasing racism. And it's fashionable, now, to bullet-list only the excesses and absurdities of '60s lifestyle rebellion (and the accompanying art). I'm just having a [characteristic] reaction to the idea that there's never any way to change the responses of a significant number of adult mutant-guardians.

Maybe kids can get change started, sometimes, with a litle help from their friends?

Posted September 16, 2005 10:22 PM by Lenny Bailes

Leigh, yes please, do come back. No great offense taken!

"while neither Patrick nor Teresa had said these things specifically, Leigh Butler construed from the context and tone of the original post (e.g., such widely-inclusive phrases as 'the people of Gretna, Louisiana have behaved as selfishly as any gangster'), and lack of dissent expressed following the comments herein referred, that they might not necessarily be in disagreement with such sentiments...

I just want to say, once again, that I often get behind on the Many Threads of Making Light, and that nobody should ever conclude that I agree with something because I wasn't along to disagree with it in a timely fashion.

Perhaps I could write a script to post that every fifty posts or so.... :-)

Posted September 16, 2005 10:27 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

I still think that the town council and the local paper should get a lot of letters quoting Matthew 25.

Posted September 16, 2005 10:27 PM by Beth Meacham

And for those who are expecting the Second Coming Real Soon Now, I would add Matthew 24:35-36.

Posted September 16, 2005 10:38 PM by P J Evans

Thanks to my defenders.

Pericat, you're both right and wrong about Oklahoma. Geographically it's part of the Plains States, but politically and socially the eastern half of it is southern. This isn't just my theory (though I've said it for a long time). Check out the map here. Eastern Oklahoma, where I grew up, and the area around NOLA have a really similar culture in some ways. And I have blood relatives who've lived there all their lives who still talk about how much they hate nggrs.

And I never, at any point, suggested the south has a lock on racism. I've lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, Texas, Ohio, Michigan, California, and Washington and I know better. The areas I haven't lived in I mostly visited; I know what I'm talking about; I wouldn't dare open my mouth here otherwise. They aren't Other, they are me and my family and the people I grew up with. I never said, or even thought the South had a monopoly on racism, but suggesting I did so makes a handy strawman to engage with don't it? Suggesting that the South doesn't have a monopoly on biogtry in no way invalidates what I did say.

MKK

Posted September 16, 2005 10:41 PM by Mary Kay

I wish it wasn't illegal to go into someone else's (Gretna's) Web site and change the verbage. That mission statement needs some drastic fact-changing. GRR.

Posted September 16, 2005 10:58 PM by Paula Helm Murray

Leigh -- don't go away mad. When you read this -- perhaps sooner than Monday? -- you'll know that no one intends to disrespect you or your family. Among the 17,000 people in Gretna there are surely good and loving people who are horrified by their city council and their mayor.

Posted September 16, 2005 11:35 PM by Lizzy Lynn

Before everybody goes down that road of how evil conservatives and republicans are, you might want to check out this link:

http://www.sec.state.la.us/cgibin/?rqstyp=COMP2&rqsdta=26

And look closely at the party affiliations of at least the mayor and chief of police of Gretna. No, really. Just look.

Posted September 16, 2005 11:41 PM by Concerned Lurker

Lurker, no one has mentioned Republicans in this thread, except you.

Posted September 16, 2005 11:43 PM by Harry Connolly

Indeed not. Anyone who thinks it's a big shocker that Democrats can be bastards probably needs one of those guides-to-breathing that Teresa was writing about.

Posted September 16, 2005 11:49 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

One thing that has not yet been touched on but I think should be, is the reaction of the National Guard, Army troops who finally came to the convention center and the Superdome. From what I have read (and I have to say, I have been rather obsessively reading the web these days). the soldiers who have been interviewed were expecting outright nasty, rebellious behavior on the part of those they were feeding, guarding and evacuating. And every interview I read ended up with a surprised GI saying how quiet and well behaved they were. While I am sure that going w/o food and water from Mon to Friday can tone things down a bit, I would point out that most of the folks that were left to evacuate were overwhelmingly old, young, and women. I think the rumors of violence that reached a crescendo pitch during the midst of the tragedy were fed and magnified by fear of the sort we see fully displayed before us in Gretna.

Let us try to, in the future, tame this evil savagery. Else it will destroy us.

Posted September 17, 2005 12:01 AM by hrc

Mary Kay,

You said "In the south, the social contract doesn't apply to nggrs."

Tell that to all of those in the South who *have* opened their homes and communities to evacuees.

Maybe you didn't suggest the South has a lock on racism, but it can certainly be read that you suggested everybody in the South believes "the social contract doesn't apply to nggrs." That thousand-mile-wide brush painting all Sthrnrs as having identical beliefs is what many object to. It smacks of yet another form of "those people."

I won't say there's not room for hyperbole, and I actually agree with your point, but I would have agreed more wholeheartedly if you'd been more precise in your application of it.

Like after the election (during the redstate/bluestate discussions), I keep thinking: in their current heartsick condition, should Southern liberals, who already often feel ostracized by geographic neighbors because of politics, also have to feel ostracized by political allies because of geography? Or is it time for more of that "why haven't they evacuated" business?

Anyway, this isn't meant to be a bash of any sort, just explanation. And by the way, I lived in Bartlesville, Oklahoma, as a child (am now in Arkansas, and spent some time in Atlanta), and I agree that Eastern Oklahoma is a very Southernlike region.

Posted September 17, 2005 12:11 AM by Joy Freeman

Joy: I'm finding it very difficult to put into words exactly what I want to say in response to your post. Which suggests to me, knowing myself as I do, you've got a point and I don't want to admit it. Indeed, individual human beings are as capable of greatness of spirit as they are of the opposite. I know and like many folks who live in the south. However I find the overwhelming ethos of the region, especially society's enforcement institutions, to be both opressive and repressive. (I'm trying to avoid the phrase institutionalized racism so we don't get Greg started.) What I see displayed by people is the lack of any significant understanding of their own and their society's attitudes and why it might be necessary to change those attitudes. Not everyone has intellectual curiousity or the desire or leisure for introspection. They carry on as before.

I'm really not terribly reasonable and measured these days myself. New Orleans was a very special place to me and what has been done to it breaks my heart and makes me entirely unreasonable. Which is one way of saying, yeah, you've probably got a point but I don't want to admit it.

MKK

Posted September 17, 2005 12:49 AM by Mary Kay

Mary Kay, I'm not sure that map illustrates your point; it appears to show eastern OK as ideologically aligned with a huge chunk of east Texas and of Arkansas, and with the strip of land along the Gulf Coast, but not with most of the area I think of as "the South".

When I recollect OK, my impression is of people who know somebody who has moved house at least once in their life. People in the South, though, struck me with their "we have always lived here" rootedness. Not "always in this region", or even state or town, but "always in this house". These rooms, this porch, that swingset, this bed. We have always lived here, and done these things in just this way. And whatever I might think about any of it, I might just as well keep my opinion to myself.

Posted September 17, 2005 1:25 AM by pericat

MK and Bill: For the record, I too am from the South. I grew up in Florida and Georgia, and have spent about half of my adult life in Texas (the other half was spent overseas).

MK: I probably took your remarks badly for precisely the reason Joy suggested—-it is very easy for liberals to feel ostracized in the South, and all that red state – blue state nonsense just worsened our sense of isolation. Moreover, Texas1, with the notable exception of Barbara Bush, has demonstrated the inadequacy of the stereotype by opening its arms to the folks from NO. Many are here in Austin, where the city’s response to them has reminded me of why I so love this place. For example: At about midnight on a Friday a week or two ago, a public service announcement crawled across the bottom of my TV screen. The Red Cross was asking for volunteers to help prepare the Convention Center for another group of several hundred people who were going to be arriving NO at 5 a.m. I spent about 20 minutes debating whether to shuck off my exhaustion and go help, then had my mind made up for me when another PSA made its way across the screen. It said, in effect, “Don’t come. We only needed 100 people and 400 have already turned up. Thanks.”

Patrick: My first reaction to your post was that you were right that there were worse kinds of Othering, and that I had succumbed to hyperbole. Now I'm less sure. Discourse fosters the mindsets that allow for really terrible actions. Pace. I'm not suggesting that I expect Mary Kay to start hunting her Southern kin, but discourse does play a significant role in creating and perpetuating cultures.

1 Yes, Texas is not really “the South.” It has a number of distinctive regions, and perhaps only East Texas can really be called “Southern.” But it does seem to get lumped in with the rest of the South in the national (and international) imagination.

Posted September 17, 2005 2:03 AM by Scott

The usual effective way to obliterate cultures doesn't involve obliterating the people; it involves arranging things so their grand children laugh at their views. (Parts of Ontario used to be coated in Orange lodges; something, something I wish was a heck of a lot better studied, caused them to die of embarrassment sometime between 1950 and 1965.)

So, somebody should hire clowns to walk the streets of Gretna, with one in blackface just marching along, and a bunch more dressed as mayor, police chief, etc. all comically panicking at the sight of one of Those People?

Posted September 17, 2005 2:05 AM by Michael Falcon-Gates

did you know that there still is a FEMA city left over from Hurricane Charley last year? And it looks like the residents are stuck in that hell hole. Lots to look forward to.

FEMA City

Posted September 17, 2005 2:07 AM by hrc

We still had some temporary housing for about ten years after the Loma Prieta earthquake, and it was a much smaller deal than your usual hurricane. You just have to plan on it taking a long time. Of course, that requires planning.

Posted September 17, 2005 2:22 AM by Lucy Kemnitzer

When I recollect OK, my impression is of people who know somebody who has moved house at least once in their life. People in the South, though, struck me with their "we have always lived here" rootedness.

Depends who you knew in OK. It's a big state. Most of my relatives live within 30 miles of where they were born/grew up. Most of the people I went to high school with are still there. Oklahoma is a relatively new state it's true, but there's a lot of rootedness. Were you, by chance, in south central OK? That'd be near a great big army post...

MKK

Posted September 17, 2005 2:28 AM by Mary Kay

Leigh, I'm pretty sure that you're referring to my idea of sending a postcard to the residents of Gretna with the passage of Matthew on it as "hate mail." I am surprised at being misunderstood that way. I think what happened was shameful, but I don't think responding with one of the most compassionate and inclusive passages of the gospels is hate mail.

The reason to mail the entire town, and not just the town council and chief of police is that we live in a representative government. Those actions were taken on the behalf of the people that elected them into office. I know you can't know what somebody will do before you vote for him, but you can know what they did the next time the election comes back around.

What happened was despicable. I want to remind them of that -- preferably in terms which are clear but not accusatory. I thought that verses from Matthew do that beautifully.

I guess I could go hunting for a good quote from Locke, but I don't think that would get explain things as clearly.

(Jeez, for once in my life I quote the Bible with no intended irony, and I get accused of it. A girl can't win for losing around here.)

Seriously, I can't afford to do this by myself, but I'd be willing to throw some money at it if there are other people who would like to help. If you've got an interest, send me email, and I'll start scaring up costs and so on.

Thanks.

Posted September 17, 2005 4:44 AM by Lydy Nickerson

So far as Gretna is concerned, my mind turns to the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah, but there are empirical reasons for not believing in that sort of religion.

Forced evacuation and flooding and blocked exits has a certain symmetry, but there are practical reasons for not wanting a government which does that.

Social pressure sounds good, and so do legal sanctions for those directly involved.

I'm expecting the price of real estate all over the region (except for what's right on the coast) to go up. It will depress me if Gretna real estate goes up significantly more.

However, considering that people generally in the South, the rest of the US, and the world have been willing to help New Orleans evacuees, I don't think Gretna is a central reflection of current culture.

I was hideously embarrassed by Abu Graib--it seemed to me that some very large proportion of Americans believe that if you're accused, you're guilty and if you're guilty, you deserve what happens to you.

There is no evidence that a large proportion of Americans wanted FEMA and Homeland Security to fuck up.

I haven't been keeping up with Making Light. Has anyone brought up the ninth commandment, the one against bearing false witness? Part of what happened in Gretna was the result of rumors that N.O. refugees were extremely violent, rumors which turned out to be exaggerated. It seems to me that the Ninth gets less attention than most of the other commandments, but it's a very important rule for making people tolerable to live with.

Graydon, here's a notion. IIRC, the USSR put map production under their security department. The result was that people had very few maps, and what they had included false information. After looking at how FEMA under Homeland Security has performed, perhaps there's a clue that life support organizations should not be put under security organizations.

Posted September 17, 2005 5:31 AM by Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy --

Most things described as security organizations are really secrecy organizations, and as such function extremely poorly as security organizations.

Security is about making the wrong thing hard to do; that usually involves -- not absolutely always, but usually -- making Do the Right Thing easy to do. That involves making nearly all information widely available.

Secrecy organizations derive power from making it hard to know what to do, so you have to both rely on them to tell you what to do and accept what you are told.

Secrecy organizations are a terrible, terrible way to handle actual emergencies.

Posted September 17, 2005 7:49 AM by Graydon

Graydon, it's a good point about what's labeled as security organization frequently being secrecy organizations.

That being granted, what would you commend as actual security organizations? If most "security organizations" are actually secrecy organizations, doesn't that make it even more urgent not to put life support under anything that's labelled a security organization?

Posted September 17, 2005 8:23 AM by Nancy Lebovitz

Indeed there has been an implicit assumption throughout this thread that the behavior of the Gretna police and government was motivated by the politics of the religious right. Lizzy Lynn posted a link to that effect, and although she admits it's not directly related, the idea is there in the dozens of posts that advocate quoting bible passages at the supposed hypocritical southern religious bigots of Gretna. The fact is the behavior was motivated by fear, not politics. That doesn't make it any better, but it does make it *not* an opportunity to count coup against the political party you dislike, nor against a religious denomination you find distasteful.

Posted September 17, 2005 8:56 AM by Concerned Lurker

I would say it makes it important to put "succor in disaster" -- 'life support' being a specific medical term of art I'd rather stay away from
-- under the control of actual, rather than feigned, security organizations.

If you want an example of an existing security organization, consider the various governmental weather forecasting services.

They publicize information widely for free (and are being attacked for this by the US neocons); they argue about methods and models in public, in quatified ways subject to falsification; and they save a great many lives and prevent substantial loss of property.

Indeed, one of the reason weather services generally work well is that the subject is much too important to tolerate them not working well.

Posted September 17, 2005 8:59 AM by Graydon

"Indeed there has been an implicit assumption throughout this thread that the behavior of the Gretna police and government was motivated by the politics of the religious right. Lizzy Lynn posted a link to that effect, and although she admits it's not directly related"

Nice try, but you can't have it both ways. In fact what Lizzy Lynn said was:

It has nothing directly to do with Gretna but you should read it anyway, because to my mind there is a connection with the nationalism and triumphalism of the religious right and the racist, self-righteous, MEAN attitude of the folks in Gretna.

"[T]he idea is there in the dozens of posts that advocate quoting bible passages at the supposed hypocritical southern religious bigots of Gretna. The fact is the behavior was motivated by fear, not politics. That doesn't make it any better, but it does make it *not* an opportunity to count coup against the political party you dislike, nor against a religious denomination you find distasteful."

It's been pointed out to you before that you're the only person in the thread to characterize this as a matter of political parties. You're still the only person in the thread doing so, and now you're compounding it with a falsehood about "religious denominations."

I wouldn't put up with someone who showed up on Making Light and made demonstrably false factual assertions about the personal lives and history of commenters here. Equally, I'm not going to put up with someone who appears determined to claim that people in a conversation are "counting coup against a political party" when political parties haven't even been mentioned. You are telling lies for sport. You are not welcome to continue.

Posted September 17, 2005 9:27 AM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

I’m at least twelve hours late making this point (darn time difference!), but in relation to civil rights violations, I don’t think it would be stretching a point too much to characterize the Gretna police action as false imprisonment. If you’ve only got one feasible route out of a place and somebody intentionally blocks it, they’re imprisoning you, even if the place in question is as big as a city. If only Louisiana were a common-law state, the victims would have had a tort action going for them, but I would have thought an enterprising federal prosecutor could come up with a workaround here as far as criminal charges were concerned. The Rodney King case springs to mind as a parallel of sorts.

Posted September 17, 2005 10:10 AM by Andy Wilton

I've written the mayor an email. I did my best not to be persuasive rather than hateful. The words "You and all your constituents who agree with you should be ashamed of yourselves" did occur, though. Which is a really bad sentence - I don't know why my sentence structure should get so bad whenever I write an angry letter to a politician. I hit Send, or I would have been fiddling with it all night.

Posted September 17, 2005 10:12 AM by Vassilissa

Mary Kay, Thanks for not taking my post badly; I worried you might. You wrote: "What I see displayed by people is the lack of any significant understanding of their own and their society's attitudes and why it might be necessary to change those attitudes." Yeah, but as I've learned since I married, changing somebody else's way of thinking or doing things has to go beyond a dopeslap and saying "can't you see how stupid that is?!" And it should include trying to see things from their POV(s) so you know how to communicate with them effectively.

As those attitudes do start to change in subsequent generations (that would be my sister and I and some but certainly not all my cousins), it's nice for the converts to not constantly be told how evil our parents and grandparents were. If I want to hear hellfire and damnation preached, I'll start going to church again. I'd far rather learn to speak about the issues intelligently and in ways that have a chance to reach people (which is why I asked my husband to help me find a good clearinghouse for info on the Katrina response that *wasn't* a liberal blog like Making Light so I could send it to family members and they might actually read more than a few sentences).

Posted September 17, 2005 10:15 AM by Joy Freeman

Concerned Lurker isn't a lurker, either. Concerned Former Lurker wouldn't quite be accurate either - it suggests someone who, having previously only read the community, is now actively participating.

Now, someone who delurks only in order to provoke the community by making misleading statements, ignoring or twisting what other posters/commenters say, diverting the issue? There is a term for that. What was it again? Troll.

Posted September 17, 2005 10:23 AM by Vassilissa

pericat wrote: "People in the South, though, struck me with their "we have always lived here" rootedness. Not "always in this region", or even state or town, but "always in this house". "

Are you speaking metaphorically? Because most of my sharecropper forebears didn't own a house, but tended to move quite a lot. My mother's parents originally came to Arkansas from Mississippi to find work, picking cotton. IIRC, they moved to California briefly during WWII, to find work in the shipyards, I think, since Grandpa was too old to fight. After the war they settled back here in Hot Springs and at some point were able to buy some land and build a house.

My dad's family came from South Carolina and Georgia and also tended to move a lot--to wherever there was work, which usually meant crops. His parents did buy 10 acres out in the sticks during the war, and they built a log house there. They built a slightly better house upslope from that one in the mid-60s, and that log house was torn down a few years ago, but my grandparents lived on the property until they died. On the other hand, their siblings were spread all over the state and region.

pericat also wrote, earlier: "I kinda doubt there's anyone in Greta who, if you said "social contract" in their hearing, would have more than the vaguest idea of your meaning."

Come on, now. Do you really believe that? (And what culture is next on our social studies syllabus?) Again, I get that hyperbole is way fun and has its uses, but how does overstating your case to this point help?

Not everybody in Gretna shares a belief system. Not everybody there is uneducated. Not everybody there is right-wing. Not everybody there is white. Not everybody who lives there is even back HOME yet. Not everybody who lives there supports the police chief's action, no matter what the city council thinks or reporters report. But many of the people who are horrified at the cops' behavior have been taught (like good Southern women...and men) not to make waves and won't have an inkling of how to change things. How can we give those people a voice rather than just trashing them as a group? Come up with a way--and put it and the necessary contact info on that postcard, along with a sincere (rather than sarcastic) message "to the good people of Gretna," and you've got a good idea...

Posted September 17, 2005 10:33 AM by Joy Freeman

A quick pass through Google turns up names and addresses of more than 25 churches in Gretna. Maybe if all of those churches had one Sunday devoted to Matthew 25, and its applications in every-day life, the people of Gretna might see what can be done to help others.

On the other hand, I've seen religious conservatives described as "Christian, until they get out to the parking lot".

Posted September 17, 2005 10:42 AM by P J Evans

The fact is the behavior was motivated by fear, not politics.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that irrational fear of the other plays no role in modern politics.

It's not working.

Posted September 17, 2005 10:47 AM by julia

The fact is the behavior was motivated by fear, not politics.

And that makes it acceptable behavior in a reasonably civilized society?

I don't think so.

Posted September 17, 2005 11:11 AM by P J Evans

My son has a different characterization for the actions of the Gretna sherriff and the subsequent actions of the city council, and I think he's right, in a way, but it will never be followed up on. He says it amounts to an act of war on the United States -- using armed action to prevent citizens from entering the town -- that is, treason.

In another aspect, it's murder, and they had to know it.

Posted September 17, 2005 12:01 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

I've been thinking about Gretna a great deal in the past few days, and it reminds me of nothing so much as the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire, in which the workers were prevented from leaving by locked and incorrectly built doors that the owners KNEW were hazardous, or any of several nightclub fires with similar issues and results. The Gretna police had to know that they were at least condemning the people whose (voluntary, self-motivated) evacuation they blocked to significant hardship, and quite likely, to death. (As Lucy puts it, that's murder.)

The difference between locked doors and police officers, though, is that the officers were capable, in the moment of not only making way, but of escorting or directing the evacuees and refugees in the direction of safety. What's carelessness or greed on the part of the Shirtwaist Triangle owners and their passive blockages was conscious and calculated. That certainly adds a degree of vileness to it, in my view.

It is going to take a very long time for them to earn forgiveness not only for failing a larger civic duty under the guise of maintaining a (misguided) lesser one, but also of knowingly setting about to harm people just because they couldn't be bothered to help them.

Posted September 17, 2005 12:16 PM by Bruce Adelsohn

Joy:
"To the good people of Gretna, greetings.

"Your mayor and city council have betrayed you, the one by acts of deliberate evil, the other by endorsing those acts. Moreover the portrayal in the media has made it seem like a majority of the people of Gretna endorse such action, but of course they only interviewed the people who were back there already.

"It may be that the people in Gretna who do endorse such action outnumber you (note that this missive is NOT addressed to them), but I urge you to put it to the test. You can do this in part by launching a recall drive by petition, to remove the Mayor and the City Council from office.

"If that's not possible for some reason, you can tell everyone you talk to that their actions were despicable and evil. Cease to associate with people who insist on endorsing it. A good person will not have fellowship with any who endorse such callous indifference to human life.

"Write to your state representatives and governor, urging them to take the homes of the mayor and the council through the state's power of eminent domain, and bulldoze them (ideally giving them less than 72 hours to evacuate first). Copy your most local newspaper, and a newspaper with a wider distribution. The politicians probably won't act, but it will express the level of outrage decent moral people such as yourselves feel toward such murderers.

"If you cannot do any of these things, at least make certain none of these detestable individuals ever runs without opposition again, even if you have to run a shoestring campaign yourselves.

"If you're more inclined to speak gently to your less thoughtful neighbors, convincing them will increase your numbers. If they are Christians you can quote Lev. 19:33-34 and Matthew 25:31-46 to them.

"At this point your town is being vilified in every way and in every place, and its name is in danger of becoming a byword for racism, self-righteous hypocrisy, and depraved indifference to human life. You must take timely action if this is to be prevented.

In faith you must surely exist,
[signature]"

How's that? Any tweaks you'd suggest? And do you think we should send it to a local newspaper?

Posted September 17, 2005 12:29 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

Did anyone else read far enough into the article to see this?

Gretna is not the only community that views New Orleans with distrust. Authorities in St. Bernard Parish, to the east, stacked cars to seal roads from the Crescent City

It's easy for me to say what I would have done, but I wasn't there, trying to protect a town that had no power, water or food - according to the article, and presumably suffering from pretty limited communications. You have to get to the 2nd screen of the article to read...

Not sure how to feed even their own residents, Gretna officials were overwhelmed by New Orleans' evacuees. They organized bus caravans Aug. 31 to take the arrivals to Metairie, 16 miles away, where a food and water distribution center had been set up.

The evacuees waited for rides out of Gretna at the foot of the bridge, across the street from Oakwood Mall. As the hours ticked by and the crowd swelled, trouble began, Gretna authorities said.

Sometime on Wednesday, Aug. 31, a fire broke out in the mall, next to the local branch of the sheriff's office, and police chased suspected looters out of the building.

Mayor Harris had had enough. He called the state police.

"I said: 'There will be bloodshed on the west bank if this continues,' " Harris recalled. " 'This is not Gretna. I am not going to give up our community!' "

The following morning, Gretna's police chief made his decision: Seal the bridge.

So instead of walking through Gretna, it sounds like everyone was stopping there waiting for buses to evacuate further. I'm beginning to think that none of this is as simple as it seemed at first.

Posted September 17, 2005 12:42 PM by Laina

My long list of crochets, all come together in one response. Is this what they call a "stance"?

"Do they not understand that in the real world, failing to honor the social contract makes them significantly less safe?"

Plainly not. Indeed, that is writ large in the whole history of the region. Myself, I favor Matthew 5:42-48. Maybe we can send the Gretna city council cards with chapter and verse.

"However, those who react as if the beliefs of 17,000 thousand people are all spoken for by the actions of a few - even (or maybe especially) if those few are the elected officials of those people - run the risk of making the exact same mistake they are accusing the people of Gretna of doing."

Then why were these officials elected? It was not a small minority who voted them in, after all. Or...was it?

"Anyone who thinks it's a big shocker that Democrats can be bastards probably needs one of those guides-to-breathing that Teresa was writing about."

This is part of the screaming need for political reform we have; there is simply no way for most people to vote for what they want.

"So, somebody should hire clowns to walk the streets of Gretna, with one in blackface just marching along, and a bunch more dressed as mayor, police chief, etc. all comically panicking at the sight of one of Those People?"

Hey, make fun of them? I like it already. "The devil, proud spirit, cannot endure to be mocked."

"(Jeez, for once in my life I quote the Bible with no intended irony, and I get accused of it. A girl can't win for losing around here.)"

Why do you think they crucified Jesus? Compassion is still radical, after 2,000 years.

"I was hideously embarrassed by Abu Graib--it seemed to me that some very large proportion of Americans believe that if you're accused, you're guilty and if you're guilty, you deserve what happens to you."

The presumption of innocence is, in many places, empty words.

"Where do I go to resign from the human race?"

The problem is called samsara, which means "keeping going." Death does not release you.

"There isn't anything, short of road-to-Damascus level conversion experiences, that will change those attitudes in adults."

Do we hope, then, for the second (or fifth, or whateverth) coming?

Posted September 17, 2005 12:51 PM by Randolph Fritz

How about Proverbs 28:1?

Posted September 17, 2005 1:16 PM by julia

I love Lydys' idea. And it's important to reach the [presumed to exist] good people of the community to encourage them to disown their [expletive deleted] officials. And maybe there are some Christians who without thinking supported those actions, but could be brought to think by being reminded of the tenets of their own religion.

There's a gated community hereabouts. Has the highest per capita population of registered sex offenders in the state. One is tempted to say couldn't happen to a more deserving crew, but thare are some very nice folk who live there too.

Let's bring in the original context of the code phrase "property rights". In early America, when the Constitution was being written, if someone said "property rights", what were they talking about?

That's right, slavery. Their right to keep their "property" over the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness of any other person. [from the excellent book Founding Brothers]

I swear it's the same people who talk about property rights now. Their property rights are supposed to trump all other rights of anyone else.

Posted September 17, 2005 2:06 PM by Mina W

Are you speaking metaphorically?

Um, no, I was speaking of my personal experiences, staying with people in their homes, travelling through the region, on numerous occasions in the last thirty years. That's the "struck me" part of the sentence. It is perhaps because I and my family have moved around so much that I notice rooted people more than I might otherwise. I in no way implied I thought it a bad thing, or a hallmark of undesirable qualities or belief systems.

(And yes, Mary Kay, the people I knew in Oklahoma, though they were not themselves in the service, did and I believe still do live in the south central area.)

Come on, now. Do you really believe that?

What else am I to think, given the vocal support of their police firing upon refugees? That they do in fact construe the meaning of the phrase "social contract" to include how they should personally behave toward strangers massed on their doorstep in desparate need of water, food, clothing and shelter, and free passage toward same? I expect they are perfectly nice to each other, and to self-supporting visitors, and give generously to charities. So far, though, from what I've read, Gretna residents do not understand "social contract" to have the meaning I understand it to have.

Not everybody who lives there supports the police chief's action, no matter what the city council thinks or reporters report. But many of the people who are horrified at the cops' behavior have been taught (like good Southern women...and men) not to make waves and won't have an inkling of how to change things. How can we give those people a voice rather than just trashing them as a group?

They are big people. They are grownups, they've been to school, they weren't raised by wolves, and I don't see any call to not treat them the same as everyone else, nor any reason for me to patronize them by treating them as the voiceless oppressed. I do think them capable of giving their own council and police an earful, to the very minor extent that those worthies at the least issue public apologies and promises to do better, etc, if that is in fact what those residents believe.

When I first read of Gretna cops shooting over the heads of refugees on a public road, I thought, "Boy, they're gonna catch hell from that town. No way would any public official in Louisiana condone that." And then what'd I read? "We support our police. They did just what we wanted them to do." I have yet to read, "That was despicable behaviour, and heads are gonna roll if I/we have anything to say about it." When I do read or hear of something along those lines, my opinion of Gretna, and the social conscience of the people who live there, will adjust accordingly.

Posted September 17, 2005 3:38 PM by pericat

Randolph --

No, we don't hope for any divine beings to show up. We try hard to stop using decision making systems that try to optimize moral states, and start optimizing things that are measurable.

This is surprisingly effective if it can be managed.

Posted September 17, 2005 3:41 PM by Graydon

Patrick: I just got back to the thread. Thank you for defending my point against Lurker, who felt the need to distort my words in order to protect a political party that wasn't being attacked. I didn't mention it, and without going back to check, I'm pretty sure my fellow posters weren't concerned with political affiliation but with bigotry and lack of compassion. To Lurker I would say: Dude, you're the one who brought that shoe to the ball, not me. Better wear it.

Oh, and if you look at my post you'll see the only institution I actively criticized was [some bishops of] the Catholic Church. You got a problem with that? Tough.

Posted September 17, 2005 3:58 PM by Lizzy Lynn

Xopher,

I like it, for the most part. I think the bulldozing paragraph is a bit strong (there's probably a better use for those houses than bulldozing them, at least?), but even just as it is, it's good.

I don't know that it would get printed, as a letter to the editor. I'd contribute toward placing it as an ad in either whatever local paper might exist (my husband looked online but couldn't find one) and/or the Times-Picayune (my preference; they could use the revenue), if they'd print it. Or towards a mass mailing.

I also wondered if an online website (say: benotforgetful.org or something similar) could be set up for residents of Gretna and the other offending suburbs to sign a petition telling their city council, mayor, and police that they don't support their actions. But I don't know if that could be made to work in any useful way.

Joy

Posted September 17, 2005 4:46 PM by Joy Freeman

I'm with Laina. I think this was more complicated than "racist Southern cops shoot in the direction of black people." The Gretna cops may indeed be racist assholes, but that doesn't mean blocking the bridge wasn't a sound decision.

If they had n