Does anybody know the REAL origin of Frank Herbert's "Dune"?

Some time ago, I read a review of Herbert's bio in Locus, where his son was apparently rather vague about the story's genesis. Same thing in a recent interview in Chronicle.

Funny thing is that I distinctly remember a Locus interview with Jack Vance early in 1981. In it, Vance said that both he and Frank Herbert had come up with the basic plot then had a lottery to decide who'd write the book.

Maybe my memory is played tricks on me...

Posted October 4, 2005 9:34 AM by Serge

Am I the last person in the world to realize that Orson Scott Card's The Memory of Earth is a retelling of The Book of Ether?

I happened to be reading it around the time that I first read Teresa's essay God and I, and when I got to the discussion of the Book of Ether, said "Waitaminnit, that's the plot of this....novel...right."

Posted October 4, 2005 9:45 AM by Caroline

Caroline, do you mean the Book of Esther? i've never heard of the book of ether.

Posted October 4, 2005 9:48 AM by hrc

hrc,

I believe The Book of Ether was a collaboration between HST and RAH. As I recall, it began like this:

We were somewhere outside of Barstow when the unicycle went into the ditch. There is nothing more irresponsible than a Mormon on an ether binge.

Hope this helps!

Posted October 4, 2005 9:52 AM by adamsj

The Book of Ether starts with a doctor asking you to count backwards from 10. Nobody gets past 6 without falling asleep, so of course no-one remembers the book, or even really knows what it is about.

Posted October 4, 2005 9:54 AM by John Houghton

Does anybody know where one could buy a print of Norman Rockwell's "The Right to Know"? Or at least a JPG of it... This is Rockwell in anything but his idealized-America mode. On the other hand, one could say it's Rockwell with America at its most idealized. Or at least what it should be.

Posted October 4, 2005 10:23 AM by Serge

Except for those poor rare individuals who are ether resistant and were still awake, but unable to move for the duration. They're so traumatized they can't describe what the book was about.

Posted October 4, 2005 10:26 AM by Georgiana

Here's a Google hit on the Rockwell. Contact the gallery to buy.

At the risk of being obvious, Xenocide and Children of the Mind at least are also LDS-tinged. But my memory may be deceiving me.

Posted October 4, 2005 10:32 AM by Dan Lewis

No, I mean the Book of Ether, in the Book of Mormon. (Which makes sense, since I believe Orson Scott Card is Mormon.)

Posted October 4, 2005 10:42 AM by Caroline

Re: the origins of Dune, Wikipedia quotes an Omni interview with Herbert from 1980:

"I had this theory that superheroes were disastrous for humans, that even if you postulated an infallible hero, the things this hero set in motion fell eventually into the hands of fallible mortals. What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"

Posted October 4, 2005 10:43 AM by Keith Kisser

Thanks, Dan. I had done a google search for that Rockwell painting before, but never came across this site.

Posted October 4, 2005 10:46 AM by Serge

The Nelson Rocks Preserve disclaimer is good, but wordy. I rather like the one at Peggy's Cove, Nova Scotia:

WARNING
INJURY AND DEATH
HAVE REWARDED CARELESS
SIGHT-SEERS HERE
THE OCEAN AND ROCKS ARE TREACHEROUS
SAVOUR THE SEA FROM A DISTANCE

Posted October 4, 2005 10:53 AM by colin roald

So, Keith, no reference in that Herbert interview to what I remembered from that Vance interview in Locus? Interesting.

As for the sentiment expressed in that quote, I've come across it in some comics too. Alan Moore's "Miracle Man" took the premise to its logical conclusion, with the 'hero' dismantling Earth's governements and creating a lifeless Utopia.

Posted October 4, 2005 10:53 AM by Serge

Have you read Space Viking by H Beam Piper?
There may be a clue as to where Herberts names in Dune came from at least.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:01 AM by Cass Marshall

Serge writes:
Does anybody know the REAL origin of Frank Herbert's "Dune"?

Some time ago, I read a review of Herbert's bio in Locus, where his son was apparently rather vague about the story's genesis. Same thing in a recent interview in Chronicle.

I understand there's a new book, The Road to Dune, that might answer this question for you. I haven't read it. It contains some of Frank Herbert's notes, correspondence with John W. Campbell, and a novella written by Brian Herbert and the ever-bounteous Kevin J. Anderson from FH's original outline for the story.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:04 AM by Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey

Thanks, Bill... By the way, I wasn't trying to belittle what Herbert had done with "Dune". Simple curiosity... And wondering what this or that writer would have done with the same plot.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:12 AM by Serge

I'm trying to find a good home for my ANALOG collection, which spans from October 1999 thru January/February 2005. All I'd ask is for the shipping costs, or however much you could give me.

Anybody interested?

Posted October 4, 2005 11:18 AM by Serge

If The Road to Dune doesn't have Hope & Crosby in it --

"Ride a worm? That's it? And I get to be part of the sietch tau word-the-Hays-Office-won't-allow? Yippee-ti-yi-oh."

"Thought you'd say that, Junior. Here's your suit, here's your hook, there's your worm."

"Uh . . . that's a . . . big one, isn't it."

"Modest, by the local standard, I understand."

"There better be a Dorothy Lamour at the other end of this rope."

-- then I don't think I'm buying.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:19 AM by John M. Ford

"Dune" as a Hope & Crosby vehicle, John? Have mercy. I almost choked on my coffee.

Any way to one-up you? Jimmy Stewart as Paul, and June Allyson as Chani? Nah... I bow down before the Master.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:28 AM by Serge

Once you get to God Emperor of Dune and later, I think the origin of Dune stories went something like "Let's give Frank this cocktail of psychedelics, put him in front of the typewriter, and see what comes out!"

And, personally, I'm about a billion times less likely to be interested in anything SF that's Broadway (and especially Musical) themed. TTDV.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:35 AM by Skwid

Oh, wait...Hope and Crosby. That Hope and Crosby. Teach me to not pay attention. Sorry for any confusion.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:37 AM by Skwid

Can anyone tell me what's the big problem with mixing metaphors? Seems like whenever I see someone do it, it's immediately followed by an admonition of some kind, but I've never seen the problem.

(That is what these open threads are for, right?)

Posted October 4, 2005 11:39 AM by KristianB

John M. Ford writes:

If The Road to Dune doesn't have Hope & Crosby in it --

It doesn't, but this does.

Next up: Valentina Tereshkova, in a sarong.

Posted October 4, 2005 11:52 AM by Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey

Alan Sheppard, Bill? I remember seeing him in 1983 on a Bob Hope Special. There's the link to "Dune".

Next thing you know, someone will ask David Lynch to direct "Dune".

Posted October 4, 2005 12:01 PM by Serge

Can any of you knowledgeable persons identify either of these two caterpillars recently found in our yard? Both were found in Pleasantville, New York.

Todays catch, and one from September 18th.

Enquiring minds want to know.

Posted October 4, 2005 12:48 PM by Kathryn Cramer

Caroline: Not so much with the Book of Ether, but the first couple books in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Nephi I and II and the Book of Jacob. The last book in the Homecoming series is the story of Alma the Younger from the Book of Alma. However, I believe that Teresa points out that the Book of Ether has many of the same plot points as the rest of the BoM, if you can't bear to read the whole thing. (Mark Twain called it "chloroform in print". (So, John Houghton's remark isn't far off either.)

OSC actually made the BoM more interesting, in my opinion, plus women got a bigger role all around. (There are only two women mentioned by name in the entire Book of Mormon.)

The Book of Ether itself is the second-to-last book of the BoM, and serves as a sort of prequel to most of the action going on in the BoM.

As for Dune, I always group it in my mind with Lawrence of Arabia. Dune came first in my chronological history--I read it first when I was four, finding it much more interesting than this stupid Hobbit story Dad kept trying to pawn off on me, what with its silly tea party and all. And Dune was probably the number one reason I went all insane after watching LoA (age 11ish, I think) and went and checked out the Seven Pillars of Wisdom. But then several of my favourite stories fall into the Imperialist regime-desert adventurers foment uprising category. (See also: The Blue Sword, by Robin McKinley, and The Far Pavillions, by M. M. Kaye.)

Posted October 4, 2005 12:59 PM by PiscusFiche

"What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"

Seems like a description of a lot of religions to me. (Or to be fair, certain fanatics within those religions.)

Posted October 4, 2005 1:01 PM by PiscusFiche

John, thanks for stepping up and saving us from the boredom of checking making light and finding the same post at the top until they got home. *grins* Such self-sacrifice.

Posted October 4, 2005 1:04 PM by Sisuile

SFX magazine suggested I might like to review The Road to Dune, but I'd already peeped into a copy and guesstimated that 70% of the material is new fiction (OK, one piece written from an old outline) by the Amazing Brian and Kevin. For the rest, you get a few cut scenes and discarded alternatives from Dune, plus random barrel-scrapings which Frank Herbert himself never chose to publish. Like an exciting correspondence with his agent in which he fails to sell a nonfiction article about, gosh wow, deserts.

Dave

Posted October 4, 2005 1:14 PM by Dave Langford

KristianB,
The difficulty with mixing metaphors is that you have a conflict between a sentence that is syntactically correct and imagery that is logically inconsistent.

There's some wiggle room, e.g.: "He shut the door on further arguements." is mostly correct.

On the other hand, "He shut the door on their protests" is less correct, since it could mix imagery. Here, 'protests' has a double meaning, one of which involkes the image of protesters bearing signs, houting chants, etc. Only context gives you the right clues for resolving the conflict, and if intended as imagery, is kind of lame.
(Set theory: all mixed metatphors are lame*, but not all lame writing is composed of mixed metaphors.) Obviously vague writing like the second example isn't a good idea for, say, an opening paragraph.

I have trouble constructing mixed metaphors on the fly, so I cribbed one from The UVic Writer's Guide , as follows:
"The topic of pain relievers seems clouded in a sea of medical terminology."
The fault here is that 'clouded' goes better with the image of medical terminology being 'hazy', OR
the "sea" of medical terminology could go with the image of "drowning".

Anyway, the real answer to your question is that mixed metaphors are a sign that someone's an idiot. The probelm is that people who haven't thought through what they want to say will try to cram their thought into whatever sterotyped metaphor occurs to them first. This wouldn't be so bad, (it only leads to boring writing) but they compound their sin** by failing to retreive the whole metaphor from memory. Once they hit that stage, then they frantically try to recall the other half of the metaphor and merely dredge up something similar, and spit out the misbegotten sentence.*** To achieve this comedy of errors, you need to be too lazy (or just poorly read) to skip sterotypical metaphors, AND unfocused enough to remember the wrong half, AND plan poorly enough (or be lazy enough) to leave no time for editing.

Metaphorically speaking, they failed to plan, so they planned to fail, but they had to go to words with the army they wish they had, instead of the army they actually have.****

-R
*unless it's really, really, funny.
**compounded, like interest!! Hah! I do it too!
***quadruple metaphor score!
****I'm going to get punished for this, aren't I?

Posted October 4, 2005 1:22 PM by rhandir

Serge,
I'm having a bit of trouble parsing Rockwell's Right to Know. Could you give me a few hints about the context?
All these people, lined up in front of a desk...a professor's desk? a president's?

Posted October 4, 2005 1:22 PM by rhandir

As I understand it, it's a reference to the Pentagon Papers, or some other case of the Government trying to hide something big from the People. Sounds familiar?

Posted October 4, 2005 1:31 PM by Serge

I meant to write...

As I understand it, "The Right to Know" is a reference to the Pentagon Papers, or some other case of the Government trying to hide something big from the People. Sounds familiar?

...Sorry

Posted October 4, 2005 1:36 PM by Serge

Caterpillars of Eastern Forests

I am working on it. From memory, they look fairly ordinary.

Posted October 4, 2005 1:42 PM by bob mcmanus

Metaphorically speaking, they failed to plan, so they planned to fail, but they had to go to words with the army they wish they had, instead of the army they actually have.

Oooh -- shiny!

Posted October 4, 2005 1:50 PM by Michael

The painting is from 1968, and was commissioned by Look magazine (now defunct) to accompany an editorial critical of government policy in Vietnam -- particularly the official Defense Department reports, which it had become apparent were a form of swords 'n' sorcery fantasy (with Invincible American Warfighting Technology as the sorcery). The desk is most likely not a specific person's, but represents the government as a whole, being called to answer by the population.

It's by no means the only socially conscious painting Rockwell did, despite the reputation assigned to him as a cheerleader for Whitebread America. His paintings on the civil rights movement are still extremely potent.

Posted October 4, 2005 1:52 PM by John M. Ford

Thanks for the clarification about Rockwell, John... I've seen the painting of a young black girl in a white dress, on her way to school, and someone has thrown tomatoes on the white background.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:04 PM by Serge

Serge, the title of that painting is The Problem We All Live With, and it also contains a National Guardsman who's there to protect the extremely dangerous little girl.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:14 PM by John M. Ford

It seems that the stars are right. Dune comes up in this thread, and Questionable Content comes up in another, and lo! The result.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:15 PM by Eric Sadoyama

Favorite caterpillar: Hickory Horned Devil (http://www.sel.barc.usda.gov/selhome/gbu/citheronia.html) Actual size: 5 1/2 inches. My daughter once lay down in our hammock and looked up to find one of these right in front of her face. I believe she broke a land speed record, and I'm SURE the hammock went "Thwappp!!!!" as it spun rapidly on its axis upon her exit.

Favorite Rockwell painting: "The Problem We All Live With" (http://www.progressiveart.com/rockwel/rock_problem.htm)

Posted October 4, 2005 2:15 PM by Lila

I first came across "The Right to Know" in a book about Alex Ross's art. He had used that Rockwell painting as the inspiration for the cover to his "Kingdom Come" comic-book, down to using the trick of not making the people in the background row smaller than those in front.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:16 PM by Serge

Serge, now I'd really like to see some vaguely Dune-like novel written by Jack Vance. Damn.

Seriously, Vance's and Herbert's approaches are so different that I'd be surprised if they'd need to decide who got to write about the desert planet and the spice worms. On the other hand, they might have wanted to be careful.

In other news, The Garden of the Plynck is online. Sturgeon reviewed it enthusiastically in 1962, but it wasn't an easy book to find at a moderate price. If you like _One for the Morning Glory_, _The Throme of the Erol of Sherol_ and/or hitherby, there's a reasonable chance you'll like it.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:21 PM by Nancy Lebovitz

Thanks for the information, rhandir.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:28 PM by KristianB

Nancy:

I wonder if Vance's "Dune" would have been as successful as Herbert's. I'm not questioning the skills of either writer. It's just that one of the book's main elements was its detailed ecology, and I'm no familiar enough with the Vance opus to know if that was a concern of his. Ecology was coming more and more into people's awareness and, without that aspect, would the book have drawn the attention of that many people?

Posted October 4, 2005 2:39 PM by Serge

"What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"

I wonder how things work out if they turn their faculties over to a cabal of idiot criminals.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:39 PM by bryan

yes, in case anyone is wondering, I am talking about a rewrite of Dune with George Bush as Paul Atreides.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:41 PM by bryan

Bush as Paul Atreides? That's sick, Bryan.

As for what happens when idiot criminals are given superpowers, look at what's going on in the real world. At least, in comic-books, they are limited to becoming two-bit thugs who repeatedly get the crap beaten out of them by the good guys.

Posted October 4, 2005 2:57 PM by Serge

I don't think Vance's _Dune_ would have been as successful as Herbert's, or at least I don't think Vance ever had a novel nearly as successful as _Dune_.

I've always wondered why people were so impressed with the Dune ecology--it seemed implausibly skimpy to me.

I can't remember whether Vance ever worked out his ecologies, but there were strange plants and animals, and I think at least some hint that they interacted.

Posted October 4, 2005 3:00 PM by Nancy Lebovitz

I don't know if it was Dune's ecology that impressed readers, but how people living in it dealt with the situation.

One thing that bugged me about the whole thing is, if water is poisonous to sandworms, why do the latetr keep swallowing humans, who are mostly made of water? Of course, they ARE worms.

Posted October 4, 2005 3:06 PM by Serge

The problem with mixed metaphors is that if the reader is visualizing the metaphors, the images get confused or inadvertently amusing.

Part of what makes this difficult is that what is, to one person, merely a conventional turn of phrase, is to another still a live metaphor that will produce an image.

And sometimes it works anyway: "take arms against a sea of troubles" is a mixed metaphor, nobody would actually take arms against the sea.

Posted October 4, 2005 3:08 PM by Vicki

"if water is poisonous to sandworms, why do the latetr keep swallowing humans, who are mostly made of water?"

Maybe they got a buzz from small amounts of water? Or maybe water is like capacin . . . ooooh, the burn!

Posted October 4, 2005 3:10 PM by Stefan Jones

Looking at "The Right to Know" . . .

I can't help thinking . . .

. . . if these people marched to the seat of power to demand answers today, they'd see on that chair a sign reading:

OUT TO CLEAR BRUSH

or:

OUT FUNDRAISING

or:

HE DID IT --->

Posted October 4, 2005 3:14 PM by Stefan Jones

So, no taker for my ANALOG issues?

Posted October 4, 2005 3:18 PM by Serge

"What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"

Seems like a description of a lot of religions to me. (Or to be fair, certain fanatics within those religions.)

Religion is the Spiderman of the masses. "In the beginning, Spiderman patrolled the downtown and the slum. Now the city was quiet and empty, darkness was over the paved surface of the road, and the Spidey-sense was tingling. I wish I could see better, he thought, narrowly avoiding an enormous granite dragon as he webslung from skyscraper to skyscraper."

Posted October 4, 2005 3:20 PM by Dan Lewis

Serge:

http://booksforsoldiers.com/

They pay the postage.

Posted October 4, 2005 3:40 PM by Stefan Jones

Entertaining diversion: an alleged secret scoiety exposé! (via the ForteanTimes)

Posted October 4, 2005 3:52 PM by Kathryn Cramer

Thanks, Stefan. We've got all these books too we could send to booksforsoldiers.com.

Posted October 4, 2005 3:58 PM by Serge

yes, in case anyone is wondering, I am talking about a rewrite of Dune with George Bush as Paul Atreides.

"The sleeper must awaken," indeed.

Posted October 4, 2005 4:03 PM by Steve

Mixed metaphors are often uttered verbally by people who aren't paying careful attention to what they're saying. For those who actually do listen, the imagery created can be quite incongruous.

For example, in a recent business meeting, the following phrases were spoken, by two different people, within the space of a few minutes:

"It'll be smooth sailing until we hit a bump in the road."

"The next few weeks will be a roller-coaster ride, but that's par for the course."

Fortunately I am trained in the Art of the Meeting, and instead of bursting into laughter, I was able to smirk for a few seconds while covering my mouth with my hand. A useful trick which, if done properly, makes you look thoughtful, when the uppermost thought in your head is actually "what idiots these professionals be".

Posted October 4, 2005 4:21 PM by Jimcat Kasprzak

My favorite mixed metaphor was in the Business Section of the San Francisco Chronicle. It went something like this:

"They have their feet firmly planted on the ground without going overboard about it."

Posted October 4, 2005 4:35 PM by Serge

And sometimes it works anyway: "take arms against a sea of troubles" is a mixed metaphor, nobody would actually take arms against the sea.

Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea.

Posted October 4, 2005 4:35 PM by Laurel

fyi

When I load comments pages in making light, about half the time I get a blank white page with some text ads from the bottom of the page. Any thoughts on what's going on? It's been doing this for quite a while. Sometimes it is frequent, sometimes it's not. (I'm using firefox on XP and 98.) Here's the text:

Hail Eris?
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Buy text ads on Making Light

Posted October 4, 2005 5:06 PM by rhandir

There's a recent article about Jack Vance and Frank Herbert in Cosmopolis (the online zine of the glorious Vance Integral Edition project): http://www.vie-tracking.com/cosmo/Cosmopolis-60.pdf (534 kb PDF).

Vance recalls that one day Herbert enthusiastically
described his idea for a big novel about a desert
planet, giant sand worms, Spacing Guilds, and more, and
asked Vance what he thought. Vance wasn’t particularly
impressed but nodded and made polite noises (he never
really cared for Frank Herbert’s stories because so many
of them contained an element of mysticism). Later, after
Dune became a huge success, Vance was surprised and
amused when Herbert told interviewers that it was all
thanks to Jack Vance’s encouragement!

Cheers, Nick

Posted October 4, 2005 5:07 PM by Nick Brooke

"Take arms against a sea of troubles" is a mixed metaphor,
nobody would actually take arms against the sea.

Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea.

Cheers again, Nick

Posted October 4, 2005 5:10 PM by Nick Brooke

Sounds like my memory played tricks on me, Nick. Either that or Vance's did when he gave that Locus interview.

Posted October 4, 2005 5:11 PM by Serge

I have a brand new tattoo of a coelacanth, and I'm very pleased with it:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/redbird/691901.html

[I figure it's an open thread, I can do this.]

Posted October 4, 2005 5:16 PM by Vicki

Can you tell who was responsible for the rebirth of Space Opera? Should you say George Lucas, you would be wrong according to an editor who shall remain nameless but who was on a panel at Cascadia. The one to praise for it is... David Weber. I thought 'huh?', but then reminded myself that, at last year's worldcon, that person refered to Liberals as evil.

Posted October 4, 2005 5:16 PM by Serge

On "right to know," I thought the phrase was "need to know", as in "The information will be released on a need-to-know basis."

My impression of Herbert's Dune series is that for the later books, he contrived to build a Dune Novel Generator that was programmed with the stock elements (anything new probably came out of the aforementioned psychedelics). Word processing was just getting going.

A sad fate for a SF / F writer to have to produce an infinite series, like L. Frank Baum and his continuators (just as well Herbert died). Though now Herbert has continuators, or rather prequelizers. I haven't read them.

Posted October 4, 2005 5:32 PM by sara

Sara: it's "need-to-know" from the government's viewpoint (as in they think you don't need to know). "Right to know" is what we're supposed to want (not everyone does).

Posted October 4, 2005 5:40 PM by P J Evans

rhandir, that happens to me too. It seems like sometimes when you load the page, something hiccups and the browser jumps forward to an advertising link on the page. If it happens, hit the Back button and you should get the comment page you wanted.

Posted October 4, 2005 5:49 PM by Eric Sadoyama

King Canute is the name that came to my mind in connection with taking arms against the sea. I don't think Caligula's campaign ended in quite the same way.

Posted October 4, 2005 5:50 PM by Mark D.

"Take arms against a sea of troubles" is a mixed metaphor, nobody would actually take arms against the sea.

I call Asimov shout-out...

Posted October 4, 2005 6:16 PM by eyelessgame

Serge,

Was there laughter?

Posted October 4, 2005 6:21 PM by adamsj

About David Weber, adamsj? No, actually. Maybe there were too many of us polite people in the room. Either that or the others wanted to approach that editor later on and had no wish to antagonize that person. (Me? I'm married to a published author.)

Actually, I'm not sure that even George Lucas is to thank (or to curse) or the rebirth of Space Opera. I think it was up in the air in the Seventies and it was bound to happen. I remember the absolute pleasure I got from reading Leigh Brackett's bringing back Eric John Stark, much as I also appreciated 'serious' SF. People wanted some 'fun' back in SF.

Posted October 4, 2005 6:52 PM by Serge

If people are talking about alternate casts for Dune, it may be time to resurrect a 22-year-old Usenet posting:

The Associated Press yesterday released information concerning the near completion of the movie version of Frank Herbert's "Dune". They neglected to announce any casting information, so we at Mellon Institute thought that we would fill this gap with our own suggestions:

Baron Harkonnen: Jackie Gleason. ("One of these days, Leto, a one way trip to 'da doon. To 'da doon, Leto!")

Emperor Shaddam: Ricardo Montalban. ("Ah, Reverend Mother, are you aware of the old Ixian proverb that says, 'Melange is a dish best served cold'? You know, it is very cold in spice.")

Duke Leto: Marlon Brando. (pretentious, overbearing, has the respect of his men, and you only see him for the first 15 minutes of the film. "Paul, my son, you are going to another planet. No wait, I did this line before...")

Reverend Mother: Joan Rivers. ("Can we tawk? You wanna tawk? Here, stick your hand in this box...")

Liet Kynes: Ben Haggerty. (man of the wild, knows everything about exobiology, but has a very common sense way of looking at things. "Well, see, this sandtrout is, like, kind of like a vector, you see. He, uh, has this, um...")

Gurney Hallek: Alec Karras. ("Gurney just pawn in game of life.")

Sandworm: Frank Oz

Stilgar: Harrison Ford. ("Shields may be one thing kid, but the sandworms will turn you into lunchmeat in a minute. Give me chrysknife in a tight spot anyday.")

Doctor Yueh: Hunter S. Thompson. (See also his treatise "Fear and Loathing on Arrakis")

Count Fenring: Marty Feldman. ("I was the Sisterhoods closest attempt at the Kwisatz Haderach. They got everything right except my future sight is a bit cockeyed. They call me the Ersatz Haderach.")

Paul Muad'Dib: Muhhamed Ali. ("I float like an ornithopter, and I sting like a hunter-seeker./I'm the prettiest duke-apparent, and the protector of the weaker./And if you mess with my Fremen, you better call on your Guard,/ C'oz I'll make you a target on my righteous Jihad.")

Princess Irulan: Loni Anderson. (We don't care if she can act, we just want to see her in an Imperial Bikini.)

Chani: Susan St. James. (Ditto.)

Feyd Rautha: Tom Selleck. (We have to be fair.)

Lady Jessica: Nancy Walker. ("So. You killed him. You proud of yourself? My son, the killer. Oy, what would your father (may he rest in peace) say?")

Thufir Hawat: Hymie. ("My first line approximation is for goodness and niceness.")

Beast Rabban: Bruce Weitz. ("Okay, hairbag. It's into the arena with you!")

Jamis: David Carradine. ("So grasshopper, you know about slipstyle boots. Big deal. Let's see how you hold up in a tahaddi-challenge.")

Shadout Mapes: Eddie Murphy. ("'Dis here's mah' castle, see, an' I don' wan' no dumbass honkeys fum Caladan messin' wif it, you hear?")

The theme song will be sung by Chrystal Gayle. ("Don't it make my brown eyes blue?")

=================================================
Disrespectfully submitted by Dan Klein and Robert Zimmermann. Casting for Dune Messiah (a.k.a "Jesus Christ Duneperstar") will commence soon.

That last bit did come half-true, courtesy of Tom Smith (in a song he subtitled "Crystal Gayle Killed Frank Herbert").

Posted October 4, 2005 7:30 PM by CHip

A well-mixed metaphor is a dish that speaks for itself.

Posted October 4, 2005 7:44 PM by Dan Layman-Kennedy

Also, Rhandir, currently the pages have an anchor link when they load (like, this page comes out as /006897.html#006897). In mozilla, if I chop the anchor link off (and just go to /006897.html) then it loads okay without needing the back button.

Posted October 4, 2005 7:45 PM by Carolyn Davies

That IS a good one, CHip, about Dune's alternate casting. Kind of reminds me of the 2002 worldcon where they did the original "Star Wars" as a radio show. With Jack Benny and Mae West as Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. I think Jimmy Stewart was Obi Wan Kenobi, and Bogart was, who else, Han Solo.

Posted October 4, 2005 8:00 PM by Serge

I first came across "The Right to Know" in a book about Alex Ross's art. He had used that Rockwell painting as the inspiration for the cover to his "Kingdom Come" comic-book, down to using the trick of not making the people in the background row smaller than those in front.

Ah! I knew there was something familiar about the Kingdom Come style.

And _The Right to Know_ is very striking. Rockwell could be stunning when he wanted to be.

Posted October 4, 2005 8:05 PM by tavella

Just a note on "Right to Know" - 1968 was just after the (US) Freedom of Information Act first started coming into force. It seems appropriate, from that angle...

(As an aside, does anyone know why a lot of US states call their FOI laws "sunshine laws"? I keep running across the term, and have encountered a variety of explanations, some of which are less plausible than others)

Posted October 4, 2005 8:39 PM by Andrew Gray

Andrew Gray:
They're called "Sunshine Laws" because they bring "back-room wheeling and dealing" into the bright light of day.

Posted October 4, 2005 9:17 PM by jhlipton

"Sunshine laws" are called that because "you shouldn't be running the business of government in the dark." That was the rhetoric going around when Washington state passed theirs, at least. Lots of similes involving opened doors and curtains, and the exposure of buried this and that to air and... yeah, sunshine. I know enough about composting that the speeches made me very nervous.

Posted October 4, 2005 9:34 PM by Michael Falcon-Gates

Tavella: if you think that Alex Ross's "Kingdom Come" is very reminiscent of Rockwell, you should check his "Peace on Earth", a Christmas story about Superman. Or check his "U.S.", which is about a man who may actually be Uncle Sam.

Posted October 4, 2005 9:43 PM by Serge

Since it's an open thread, am I allowed some idle boasting? Please?

I've just got email telling me that the first game I've written since the late 80's, a conversion of the puzzle game CastleMouse for mobile phones, has sold it's first copy. If it sells another copy, that will be double the money!

From previous experiences with writng shareware, it's no way to make money, but it's great for the ego.

I will now spend the rest of the day enveloped in a warm glow.

Posted October 4, 2005 9:46 PM by Steve Taylor

jhlipton, Michael: Thanks. I suspected something like that, though I ran across one or two claiming that it was because Florida was an early adopter.

(In the US there's the problem that all sorts of laws and acts have no formal title, so different sources will quite happily call them different things, and "sunshine law" is popular... am writing a comparative study just now, and it gets confusing as heck having to make sure that when I write "a public records law" I'm letting it be confused with the Public Records Law mentioned three paragraphs back. But it's all fun enough.)

Posted October 4, 2005 10:20 PM by Andrew Gray

"It'll be smooth sailing until we hit a bump in the road."

[irritating pedant]
Isn't there an extreme sport where people ride sail-powered skateboards or some-such?
[/irritating pedant]

Posted October 4, 2005 10:46 PM by Stefan Jones

"Take arms against a sea of troubles" is a mixed metaphor, nobody would actually take arms against the sea.

Cuchulain fought the ungovernable sea.

So did Caligula.

Then there's always Bush's Katrina-inspired War on Weather...

Posted October 5, 2005 12:35 AM by Stephen Frug

"It'll be smooth sailing until we hit a bump in the road."

You really have to be careful boating around flooded cities.

Posted October 5, 2005 3:01 AM by Paula Lieberman

"Jack, I have often noticed how landsman use terms which seem taken from the professional vocabulary of the seaman, which is rich in the potential for metaphor. After so many years, even I recognise how little they understand of what they speak."

"Indeed, Stephen. Pray, pass the rosin. It is gratifying to know the high regard in which they hold the Navy, but high regard pays no pursers. And it gladdens me to know you have learnt something of the sea."

"How could I not, but, despite our voyages, I know I can never call myself a seaman. I believe I must be the most lubberly sea-voyager known to mankind. Do I have that right, Jack?"

"Oh, you are not so bad as all that. Few with your skills could practise them on board a ship at sea, but would want to be on solid ground before they even dreamt of opening a man's skull. Stephen, you are the veritable Nelson of nautical physic."

"Come, Jack, you flatter me beyond all my desserts, yet I thank for the compliment with all my heart. Still, I think Lord Nelson will be remembered long after we are dead and gone. There will be other Doctors and other gallant Captains, but I venture that Nelson will be revered even if an Englishman could walk to France."

"An Enlishman walk to France? Now that's unlikely. What else may we expect? A man walking on the Moon? But Nelson, I think he will be remembered in such a remote time. Did I ever tell you..."

"...how he asked you to pass the salt?"

Posted October 5, 2005 3:53 AM by Dave Bell

Come, Jack, you flatter me beyond all my desserts . . ."

Is that a misspelling or a culinary metaphor? Something about, "It's the Captain's Mess, let him clean it up"?

Posted October 5, 2005 4:08 AM by John M. Ford

"It'll be smooth sailing until we hit a bump in the road."

Posted October 5, 2005 5:20 AM by Epacris

[Stefan Jones] Isn't there an extreme sport where people ride sail-powered skateboards or some-such?

I believe you will find that there is an extreme sport where people ride X-powered Y, for pretty much every value of X and Y.

Posted October 5, 2005 5:21 AM by Ross Smith

'"Take arms against a sea of troubles" is a mixed metaphor'

no it isn't.

Take arms against the pitter-patter of little feet isn't either.

Posted October 5, 2005 6:08 AM by Bryan

Find a photo of this chap. Put it in your ticket-holder, passport folder or the like. If you are travelling anywhere, keep a weather eye out and, if you recognise him, cancel your trip and head in the other direction immediately.

Survivor's tale takes another twist as he fights for life
via Dan Proudman, Sydney Morning Herald, October 5, 2005
He survived the disastrous 1998 Sydney to Hobart yacht race with a serious head wound and a broken leg, battled through a plane crash, and beat a heart attack.
Now, for the fourth time in seven years, Tony Purkiss, a Newcastle [NSW] father of two, is facing a fight for life after being critically injured in the October 2005 Bali bomb blasts.

Posted October 5, 2005 6:37 AM by Mez

Toasted cheese, mostly.

Posted October 5, 2005 7:07 AM by Dave Bell

I believe you will find that there is an extreme sport where people ride X-powered Y, for pretty much every value of X and Y.

Though hedgehog-powered windmill racing has yet to hit the big time.

In a sudden fit of caution I decided to Google for hedgehogs and windmill racing before posting this. Thus I discovered Men's Miniature Downhill Windmill Racing, and that "Windmill" is a class of dinghy, though the tips for improving your Windmill racing make no mention of using hedgehogs for auxiliary power.

Posted October 5, 2005 7:14 AM by Paul Clarke

I got an e-mail in my box this morning notifying me taht all employees, even those for whom it is ridiculously external to their job description, are required to complete (before Hallowe'en) a training course in "Anti-Money Laundering". So first off I wonder, what is anti-money? And what happens if it collides with money? Then it occurs to me to wonder, whether antimony could be used as a detergent. Probably not I guess, oh well.

Posted October 5, 2005 8:09 AM by Jeremy Osner

I believe "sunshine" laws also often refer to laws requiring that public bodies' meetings be open to the public; New York State has one. http://www.dos.state.ny.us/coog/openmeetinglawfaq.htm

Posted October 5, 2005 9:46 AM by Kate Nepveu

Kate: Mmm, the US seems to have a fondness for open-meeting laws as well as open-records ones. It's interesting; not many other countries do this.

Posted October 5, 2005 10:25 AM by Andrew Gray

Smooth sailing until we hit a bump in the road: that's the landships in Terry Dowling's SF.

Posted October 5, 2005 10:26 AM by Vicki

What I get for not checking in for a day.

Never heard of the Book of Ether, but if it is in the Book of Mormon, I wouldn't be surprised b/c yes Card is a Mormon and is very strongly influenced by his religion. In fact he's one of the few SF writers I know of who has come out publicly in support of Geo W. Bush.

Posted October 5, 2005 10:59 AM by hrc

If Locus did run that Vance interview (which I kinda sorta think it did), the interview dates from before 1987 -- their official index only goes back that far. My memory is too lousy, and my oldest Loci too numerous in their boxes in my closet, for me to check on this (and anyway I have a *new* Locus interview to type today, so I can't spend a lot of time googling for info), but somebody out there should be able to pin the thing down in their copious spare time.

Posted October 5, 2005 11:02 AM by Faren Miller

"Take arms against a sea of troubles" . . .

I call Asimov shout-out

Shakespeare, sorry.

Perhaps he borrowed the image from these legends of people fighting the sea.

Posted October 5, 2005 11:21 AM by Laura Roberts

Thanks, Faren... I'm fairly certain that the Vance interview was in early 1981 and had meant to dig it up yesterday, but things got in the way. I just wrote a note to myself to look tonight. Of course by the time I post my findings, nobody will care that much. But at least I'll know if my memory is starting to act up.

Posted October 5, 2005 11:29 AM by Serge

Snake charms again? 'T's a three of bubbles!

Posted October 5, 2005 11:31 AM by Jeremy Osner

Jeremy - is that Asimov?

Posted October 5, 2005 11:39 AM by Laura Roberts

There is a filker (Tom Smith) who has written a song about Dune...

...and the tune IS "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue."

Posted October 5, 2005 12:10 PM by Lori Coulson

Mmm, the US seems to have a fondness for open-meeting laws as well as open-records ones. It's interesting; not many other countries do this.

Not many other countries had their foundation documents written by people like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

That was, of course, a long time ago; the US was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment, and has spent the time since in a gibbering flight from them.

Posted October 5, 2005 12:56 PM by John M. Ford

Jeremy - is that Asimov?

No silly, it's Gillian Krakester.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:10 PM by Jeremy Osner

"So first off I wonder, what is anti-money? And what happens if it collides with money?"

I'd like to know how to create stable anti-money, and whether I can use it in a weapon system.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:14 PM by j h woodyatt

and whether I can use it in a weapon system.

Yeah that's really the ultimate question in nearly every avenue of human discourse.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:16 PM by Jeremy Osner

I'd like to know how to create stable anti-money, and whether I can use it in a weapon system.

Don't forget powering spaceships! With anti-money, you can build a warped drive!

Posted October 5, 2005 1:17 PM by P J Evans

Here's a question. Are all of PNH's Sidelights going to take the form of box scores from now on? Because that would be great.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:39 PM by andrew

We have anti-money and it is used as a weapon...

credit cards.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:40 PM by Charley Suggs

Isn't anti-money what powers the Enterprise?

Posted October 5, 2005 1:47 PM by Serge

Jeremy Osner said:

No silly, it's Gillian Krakester.

I thought it might be one of Asimov's puns. Once read a story of his which ended with a parody of "Give my Regards to Broadway."

Points to anyone who can remind me of the title.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:50 PM by Laura Roberts

About the re-birth of space opera: I've always thought that the original TV series of "Buck Rogers" might have something to do with it. Or maybe the Chuck Jones, "Duck Dodgers in the 24 and a half century" cartoons.

Posted October 5, 2005 1:54 PM by Magenta Griffith

Duck Dodgers, Magenta? He's more likely to be responsible for a rebirth of Space Opera than anything ever spawned by Gary Larson.... I mean Glen Larson. Come to think of it, Gary Larson would have been an improvement, even though his Buck would have had to be rather corpulent, and Wilma Deering would be sporting a beehive hairdo.

Posted October 5, 2005 2:18 PM by Serge

Re mixed metaphors and how not to do them: I recently re-read "Naming of Parts" by Henry Reed. Very nice use of extended metaphor. (Of course there's always the joke: "What's a metaphor?" "To keep cows in.")

Worst use of metaphor was the NO mayor complaining about lack of funds, and how hard it would be to keep the city afloat.

No I must ascend to my harp seal-powered dirigible and leave you.

Posted October 5, 2005 2:19 PM by jhlipton

Laura: it's "Death of a Foy", I believe.

Posted October 5, 2005 2:24 PM by tortoise

I never metaphor I didn't like.

Posted October 5, 2005 3:03 PM by adamsj

I suspect a copyright violation but someone's geocities site has "Death of a Foy" -

the whole story

Posted October 5, 2005 3:24 PM by Dee Lacey

Anti-money is a chem-ical ele-ment (symbol S-b). It's one of the semi-metallics. Laundering it just makes it clean anti-mony, but it's still poi-sonous. If I'm not hyphen' it too much.

And my favourite mixed metaphor is stil from Clive James: "Their sacred cows were coming home to roost with a vengeance."

Posted October 5, 2005 3:27 PM by abi

Here's a question. Do you think that an author's religious or political beliefs have ever interfered with their writing abilities? Because Card was mentioned, I was thinking in the sci-fi/fantasy vein and of course L.Ron Hubbard pops out immediately. But I think Heinlein's views interefered in his later work as well.

Posted October 5, 2005 3:57 PM by hrc

I don't think interfered would be the term I would use.
Shape, perhaps?
Hubbard used his writing as one of the foundations of his very own religion, didn't he? Did it interfere with his ability or did it encourage?
Rushdie was an author whose writing (and very nearly breathing) abilities were interfered with because of others' religious and political beliefs.
I would think that (on occasion) the readers' religious and political beliefs might have more of an influence on certain authors. Depending on how important they feel their readers and/or success at their craft is, of course.

Posted October 5, 2005 4:39 PM by trollop23

Both S Clemmons and J Swift's writings were influenced by their (negative) religious experiences later in life. Compare the tone of Gulliver among the Lilliptutians (although it is not a children's tale, really) to his time with the Yahoos and the H... horse-critters. Much of Clemmon's later writings has more acidity and bitterness than the earlier works.

Not sure if these count, but thought I would throw them out.

Posted October 5, 2005 4:51 PM by jhlipton

Hubbard used his writing as one of the foundations of his very own religion, didn't he?

Not noticeably. He was a rather conventional, and, well, let's say average writer; the stories that the field remembers fondly -- the novellas "Fear" and "Typewriter in the Sky" -- don't have anything visible to do with Dianetics (though one can find signs of anything in anything with enough effort). The yarns with supposedly Dianetical material, Mission Earth and so on, come from late in his life. Indeed, after Dianetics started to bring in the bucks, he mostly quit writing fiction until that burst at the end.

Also note that "Scientology" didn't begin as a "religion;" it started out as a New Science-Like View of the World, and later became a Church for purposes of tax exemption.

Posted October 5, 2005 5:00 PM by John M. Ford

tortoise - you get 10 points!

Posted October 5, 2005 5:15 PM by Laura Roberts

I know that, for example, Orson Scott Card's writing seems to me to be negatively affected by his beliefs. But I'm not sure that's what's going on. It could be that the creepiness that wrecks a lot of his work for me is his very own and original to him, and it is only colored by his religion. -- that it would be there whether he had his religion or not. And then, also, creepiness doesn't always make make writing that makes me want to purge myself. And then, too, sometimes writing that is that creepy and does make me feel violated when I read it is also compelling and beautiful. And a few of Card's things strike me that way.

And you can have the same religious beliefs affect different writers different ways. So I guess the question is one of those imponderables that can lead you off into interesting lines of thought but can't be decided.

Posted October 5, 2005 5:16 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

Indeed, after Dianetics started to bring in the bucks, he mostly quit writing fiction until that burst at the end.

What end?

Posted October 5, 2005 5:24 PM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

hrc: RAH interfered with? I don't think so; he was riffing on an assortment of beliefs which he (and I) consider bizarre. His writing became self-indulgent (or unedited -- see discussion of the relative qualities of as-originally-published and author's-cut versions of Stranger in a Strange Land), but IMO that had little to do with his (lack of) belief. I don't think this is just a matter of matching prejudices; Card's "Earth" books are badly-done stories even if you don't know that the reason for the mangled plotting is to make them fit parts of the Book of Mormon.

Posted October 5, 2005 5:33 PM by CHip

Is it true, O ye who remember the finer points of sfnal history, that Dianetics was written because of a drunken bet made at a Worldcon?

Posted October 5, 2005 5:38 PM by TexAnne

Is it true, O ye who remember the finer points of sfnal history, that Dianetics was written because of a drunken bet made at a Worldcon?

Don't know about the Worldcon part, but I've heard it was a drunken bet about creating a religion as a hoax. And the later members don't like to remember that part: they'd really like that all memory and mention of its origins disappear.

Posted October 5, 2005 5:46 PM by P J Evans

There are some sci-fi fantasy stories that contain within them religious Qs that I think make those works even more interesting than just as a straight adventure story. I am thinking of Simmons Hyperion where the question was Abraham's choice and Grass by Tepper where the issue was original sin. The Sparrow and Children of God also. So religion or at least religious questions/issues can deepen a story.

Posted October 5, 2005 5:56 PM by hrc

Anne, the gurus say not exactly. But I've heard from several people who ought to know that L. Ron Hubbard said several times that he was tired of penny-a-word and he was going to found a religion and make big bucks. Some of them may even comment on the matter.

Posted October 5, 2005 6:00 PM by Randolph Fritz

Indeed, after Dianetics started to bring in the bucks, he mostly quit writing fiction until that burst at the end.

What end?

My guess would be rear.

Posted October 5, 2005 6:23 PM by Michelle K

The quote as I found it is:
Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man wanted to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion. --L. Ron Hubbard

I found different sources for it. Whether they're true sources or not is for others to say.

Posted October 5, 2005 6:26 PM by Michelle K

"We have anti-money and it is used as a weapon... credit cards."

Actually, no— that's not right. Credit cards are one of the many ways that banks create money. They really can't be considered as examples of anti-money. I would imagine that anti-money would have to be some kind of transferable token that served as the opposite of money. It would have to be a store of worthlessness, a barrier to exchange and a unit of exemption.

Hmmmm. I'm going to have to give this thought more consideration. It's possible I might be able to write a horrible parody of Neal Stephenson with it. I suspect it will have a twist ending that will make the reader want to kill me.

Posted October 5, 2005 7:45 PM by j h woodyatt

Random thought while working on intra-process synchronization: "Hey! The plural of mutex is mutices!"

Posted October 5, 2005 7:48 PM by Jeremy Osner

If not for the background given here, I would have thought that "The Right to Know" referred to education. The two men center front look like students, from their dress to their books and notebook, and the pitcher of water and glass on the desk suggest a lecturing professor with a dry throat. Perhaps Rockwell had in mind multiple types of knowledge?

Posted October 5, 2005 7:50 PM by Leslie

Both S Clemmons [sic] and J Swift's writings were influenced by their (negative) religious experiences later in life.

No doubt, but Sam Clemens was cynical for just about all of his life about things he considered humbugs, and it would be rather surprising had he not seen (for instance) Mrs. Eddy that way. And the tone of his work was definitely affected after the death of one of his daughters (while he was on tour), and even more so by the loss of his wife and another daughter.

Xopher: I forgot -- Hubbard's not dead, he's in the Frigidaire with Walt. There were rumors at the time the dreckalogy* was appearing that he was already gone and someone else was ghosting them; it was noted that Hubbard was a sufficiently indifferent prosaist that it was tough to tell the original from an imitator.

*A series of ten Crummy books.

Posted October 5, 2005 8:19 PM by John M. Ford