Let's hope this doesn't get "ripped off the headlines" to wind up as the plot of one the Law & Order series - probably Special Victims Unit, what with the sex club and the trashy Republican girls. Let's not forget that the victim's neighbors are SF editors who run a web site where the word 'dinosaur' often pops up in conjunction with 'you-know-what'.

Instead of Johnny Depp & Meryl Streep, it'll probably be Steve Buscemi & Jessica Walter playing your parts.

Posted November 19, 2005 7:15 PM by Serge

I don't like this idea! I don't WANNA get fed into a woodchipper!

Posted November 19, 2005 7:33 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Serge beat me to it . . . I was thinking "CSI: NY," but SVU fits too.

Posted November 19, 2005 7:34 PM by Stefan Jones

That's a Fargo reference, isn't it, Patrick?

Posted November 19, 2005 7:38 PM by Serge

Grow up. Or, move back to whatever hole you came from. I'm from Brooklyn, not far from Sunset Park, and I have friends who work in the Sweet Cherry neighborhood which is how we ended up there that night. I thought liberals were the not uptight side of the aisle? My bad.

Posted November 19, 2005 7:56 PM by Karol

I love that you two wannabees are performing at Pussycat Lounge. What is it about liberals and hypocrisy? They can't just all be judgemental assholes who don't practice what they preach, can they?

Posted November 19, 2005 8:00 PM by Karol

Karol, do you actually disagree with what Teresa quoted from you and Jessica?

Only one of them is performing at the Pussycat Lounge.

Posted November 19, 2005 8:12 PM by Marilee

Karol: You weren't slumming, then? Duly noted.

Posted November 19, 2005 8:30 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

My first reaction was, 'How awful for you both!' This makes a horrible event even worse. I can't begin to imagine how dreadful this is for you.

Posted November 19, 2005 8:38 PM by Maggie Brinkley

Thanks, Maggie, and thanks to everyone else who's been so kind. It's all been pretty creepy. Of course, it could have been much worse. I could have been the one who found him. I could have known him better. And I could have known something (anything!) significant about the circumstances surrounding his death -- which, I'm devoutly glad to say, I don't.

Posted November 19, 2005 9:20 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

*says a quiet prayer for the deceased, and for anyone still in the way of the harm*

Posted November 19, 2005 9:29 PM by elise

Teresa writes: You weren't slumming, then? Duly noted.

Be careful about the pronoun tense when you write that down. We don't know whether Karol's friends were slumming.

Posted November 19, 2005 10:34 PM by j h woodyatt

Actually, Teresa, your neighbor's demise and subsequent, um, repose was reported earlier in the week in the Daily News. It was a smallish article, which I happened to note after having read your post, and noted that the two fact patterns alligned very closely. It didn't mention the strip joint, or the man's name, but it did mention Sunset Park and the fact that he was undiscovered for a while.

I think it might have been Thursday's paper.

Posted November 19, 2005 10:36 PM by Rich Boye

BOUNCER SLAY TWIST has me wondering if there's some new dance craze going around. I can just picture hordes of club kids bouncing and twisting around, with intermittant dropping to the floor for a rest, before bouncing up again.

It's very strange reading about your home in the news - we had a fire down the street, and saw it on the news at the same time as seeing it out the window.

Posted November 19, 2005 10:38 PM by xeger

Karol: You weren't slumming, then? Duly noted.

So, you are a hypocrite? Duly noted.

Posted November 19, 2005 10:42 PM by Karol

Excuse me for asking, Karol, but where's the hypocrisy?

If you say you weren't slumming, I have to believe you.

Posted November 19, 2005 10:46 PM by James D. Macdonald

As do I.

Now, where does this hypocrisy supposedly come in?

Posted November 19, 2005 10:49 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Just wondering-- they think he was shot because they found a bullet fragment in his tongue? Might there not be a slightly more obvious hole?

Posted November 19, 2005 11:09 PM by Cassie Krahe

Karol seems to be one of those people who confuses being indirect with being clever. Notice how she can't just come right out and say whatever it is she wants to say, but has to tart it up with cheap and incompetent irony.

Posted November 20, 2005 12:09 AM by Avram

I was going to say... parroting TNH's remarks back to her shows reading comprehension and all, but it's not so much with the witty.

Posted November 20, 2005 12:32 AM by Manon

I have to agree with Karol here, despite finding her politics repulsive. You made fun of these women for going to a strip club because it's sleazy but are yourself performing in a strip club. Is that because your strip club is in a "Good" area and the one they went to is in a "Bad" area? Seems hypocritical to me too. And the mention of them at all in this post seems unwarranted. What do they have to do with the story?

Posted November 20, 2005 12:37 AM by Miz

I think it's more that their reaction to the strip club was of surprise and astonishment, coupled with a giggle and a list of ways to tell it's a substandard place-- when they could probably tell its character based on a glance. She never said it was sleazy for them to be there, only commented on the fact that they had somehow missed every single sign that it was not a reputable club until it came time to joke about the misadventure.
This is my interpretation, of course.

Posted November 20, 2005 9:46 AM by Cassie

What I'm curious about is why this thread shows up on my laptop but not on my desktop downstairs. (Incidentally, Jim's thread on diabetes does and that was a new thread for the downstairs machine - and I did clear the cache & reload the page.)

Are the different floors in my house occupying different realities? (Anyone who's heard us discuss the previous owner's notions of home repair might think so.)

Are my computers checking into different internets?

Is one of my computers a neo-con Republican? (They're both Macs, but I suppose that doesn't mean anything.)

It's very odd.

Posted November 20, 2005 10:25 AM by Margaret Organ-Kean

I love that you two wannabees are performing at Pussycat Lounge. What is it about liberals and hypocrisy? They can't just all be judgemental assholes who don't practice what they preach, can they?

Karol, I know this will come as shocking news to you, but:

1. Musicians generally perform where they get gigs.

2. It's not generally liberals who spend all their time lecturing other people about Family Values or Sex Bad Sleazy Dirty. Liberals, in fact, generally maintain that other people's activities are their own business, as long as it's all voluntary and no one is getting hurt.

So, no, there's no hypocrisy in liberals being in a strip club, or in liberals snickering at that sight of a gang of "conservative girls" wanting to eat their cake and have it too--have the thrill of going to such an obviously sleazy place in a sleazy neighborhood, and still pat themselves on the back for being too good for that kind of place. Well, no, you're not too good for that kind of place. If by chance you didn't know when you set out, you knew well before you got there that it wasn't the kind place you were going to be telling Mummy and Daddy about over breakfast.

Posted November 20, 2005 10:33 AM by Lis Carey

Margaret, have you tried selecting the 'refresh' item under the 'view' pull-down menu?

Posted November 20, 2005 10:40 AM by Serge

Now, Lis, your response assumes that you-know-what is interested in a debate where assumptions are reasonably discussed.

Posted November 20, 2005 10:43 AM by Serge

Serge, I realize it's unlikely, but who knows? Maybe the horse will sing.

Posted November 20, 2005 10:46 AM by Lis Carey

Yes, Lis, and pigs will fly. The equivalent expression in French translates as 'when chicken acquire teeth', but I think the comparison to avian-porcine hybrids is so much more adequate.

Posted November 20, 2005 10:59 AM by Serge

(Anyone who's heard us discuss the previous owner's notions of home repair might think so.)

Ah, you've been hit by a handy-jerk, too, eh?

The guy who did the work on our house did well-crafted, meticulously built shit. As in "why the shit did he do it that way?" The house has two main electrical lines, one on the left side of the house, one on the right. It was apparent that our handy-jerk rewired the house at some point, with a new fuse box and everything to include 220 for the a/c, ... and left the house wired with two main sides, one on the left... *sigh*

I haven't heard your stories, but you have my sympathy.

Posted November 20, 2005 11:06 AM by Lin Daniel

If people are looking for film references here, I was reminded more of "Manhattan Murder Mystery" than of "Fargo".

Posted November 20, 2005 11:20 AM by Simstim

The trouble with the word "sleazy" is that it trails in all sorts of distasteful connotations. including a slatternly environment and a general exploitative dishonesty in dealings with the customers, as well as the air of sexual thingummy one associates with a strip joint.

Looking at the earlier events, the place looks outright criminal, a hive of scum and villainy, and an owner named "Gabriel Bertonazzi" would likely provoke helpless editorial giggling if seen in a work of fiction. It sounds the sort of place that an undercover Lensman would enter

knowing

Luckily, no Police Forces in the US have yet taken to using duodecaplyatomate, and trained Rigellian Cateagles are in short supply.

Anyway, sleazy isn't really the word.

Can we refer to is as a Zwilnik den?

Posted November 20, 2005 11:45 AM by Dave Bell

Serge, thank you, but I did reload/refresh the page. I have a couple of websites I maintain, so it was about the first thing that occured to me. If that doesn't work, clearing the cache & reloading the page does.

More on topic, I'm very sorry to hear that this happened, and I hope that nothing further comes of it.

Posted November 20, 2005 11:49 AM by Margaret Organ-Kean

No offense taken, I hope, Margaret?

Posted November 20, 2005 12:09 PM by Serge

If this plot isn't going to be Fargo-inspired, but along the lines of Woody Allen AND 'Doc' Smith, maybe somebody should tell Harve Presnell that we don't need him to play the part of Tom Doherty.

Posted November 20, 2005 12:12 PM by Serge

You had a decent post going until the final couple of paragraphs. "Srikingly stupid?" Gimme a break. Shortsighted name-calling may have a place in grade school, but the adult world looks down upon such bush league tactics.

Posted November 20, 2005 12:28 PM by Jason

Haha...Jason wrote "bush league". George Bush! Get it? That IS a "Bush League" tactic. haha. Man, that's funny. So, so very funny.

Have you noticed that there's always a strange stench lurking around when certain people come around to "defend" themselves? Kind of like the stench in Teresa's basement.

Posted November 20, 2005 1:22 PM by Randall P.

Folks, I don't think it's fair to call Karol a hypocrite just yet.

I think it's clear from her comments here that she wasn't slumming. She's obviously the sort of conservatarian with little patience for the sex-negative and drug-paranoid types who show up at places like JusticeSunday.com, for example.

The telling thing, it seems to me, is that, of all the myriad strip club venues in the great city of New York, she would choose to visit one with such a poor record of labor-management relations. Perfectly consistent with the conservative ethical system, when you think about it.

As a good leftist, I always "look for the union label" when I choose a strip club to visit. If it's not SEIU, then it doesn't get my money. So, it's helpful to know, for the next time I visit New York, that Sweet Cherry is 1) not a union shop, and 2) frequented by annoying conservative bloggers. I'll definitely avoid the place.

Posted November 20, 2005 1:24 PM by j h woodyatt

Okay, I may be confused, and on several different counts. It's been known to happen in the past, so can I attempt to clear some things up for myself, really quick?

Teresa: You're not performing at the strip club, correct? Patrick's band is performing at the strip club? Are you in Patrick's band, as well (well. Not that it's "Patrick's band," as in he's the creative force behind it, but more in the sense that I simply associated the music with Patrick, that's all)?

Karol: are you from Brooklyn, or from Russia?

I thought the point of the end of the post was to note the connotation's in which the Sweet Cherry's been mentioned in the blog world. And I think the key word in that part of Teresa's post is "disingenuous." In each post by Karol and Jessica, the experience is spoken of with the "hee hee" tone, and the second-to-final sentence is what nails it. Jessica's blog posits the question: "How do you know you and your three nearest and dearest girlfriends just walked into a shady strip club in Sunset Park, Brooklyn?"
The answer, of course, is none of the ones proposed; the answer is that you don't know you just walked into the shady strip club. The answer is you know you're *going* to a shady strip club, and you know so *well* ahead of time. I'm quite nearly certain it didn't "Seem like such a nice place... until you noticed the bullet holes in the door." I'm also nearly certain that Jessica knew she was in a shady place long before she was asked if she and her friends were making a documentary. The tone of the post smacks of the "slumming" vibe: slumming, in this sense, used to mean deliberately visiting a "shady" venue not for the purpose of having a good time but rather to experience, vicariously, the shadiness. Then waking up the following morning in your own bed, going to work at your political pr gig, and blogging about the experience. (I also read some of the seeking of hipster credibility in the posts)

Not to mention, in Jessica's blog, there's a post about a bachelorette party. "Can someone tell me why a bunch of girls would think a good way to spend an evening is to shell out a hundred bucks for vomit-inducing food and dancing transvestites?"
Dancing transvestites sound like far more fun than bullet-holes. But that may be just me.

Jason: if you follow the links to the blogs, especially Jessica's, I think you'll see what Teresa means. I don't think "strikingly stupid" is a "bush league tactic." Although, "vapid" might have been a better adjective, or maybe "vacuous," or even a third or fourth v-word.

Posted November 20, 2005 1:56 PM by Will Entrekin

What is it about Republicans and tacky sex? They can’t all be into sleaze, can they?

(wearily remounts soap box) One of the fundamental, perhaps the most fundamental, motivations of the "Right" is sexual hysteria. Look at their "issues": abortion is evil because it interferers with God's punishment for sex; homosexuals are evil altogether, and probably have more fun sex lives than we do; sex education (the surest, cheapest way to cut abortion rates) is evil because it's about sex; etc., etc.

It's about punitiveness and control. Sex is about being out of control. There is no more evil than interfering with the punishments for sex.

Wilhelm Reich used the term "emotional plague", and while he didn't have much in the way of constructive suggestions*, I really like the term.
* (Toward the beginning of the Bush II Administration, I re-read Mass Psychology of Fascism hoping for practical advice. It sharpened my understanding, but wasn't much use tactically.)

Posted November 20, 2005 2:04 PM by Neil Rest

Sayeth Will Entrekin:

Dancing transvestites sound like far more fun than bullet-holes. But that may be just me.

Same here. I've never been shot at, but I've known some very sexy transvestites.

Posted November 20, 2005 2:12 PM by SeanH

Dancing transvestites firing guns. Now there's an idea even more brilliant than Snakes On A Plane.

Posted November 20, 2005 2:20 PM by j h woodyatt

Randal... I kept wondering if the 'bush' league comment was an accident. Or a freudian slip. There would indeed be a certain irony to busheviks decrying the use of insults against their opponents. Remember the 1992 Presidential Race when the other side would refer to Bill & Al as Bozo & Ozone?

By the way, Bozo the Clown was quite offended at the Republicans using his name as an insult, partly, it's true, because Bozo was a Democrat. I think I read that in a column of the late Herb Caen in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Posted November 20, 2005 2:41 PM by Serge

" One of the fundamental, perhaps the most fundamental, motivations of the "Right" is sexual hysteria."

middle eastern peoples are evil because they control the mysterious and erotic falafel.

Posted November 20, 2005 2:48 PM by bryan

About Jason's post: what's the matter with Kansas. Indeed.

Posted November 20, 2005 2:55 PM by Jon Meltzer

Will, of course I'm not performing at the Pussycat Lounge. I'm not performing at all. Patrick plays guitar in a rock band, and they've got a gig in the upstairs half of that establishment: a major venue for minor bands.

Miz isn't a careful reader. I didn't make fun of Karol or Jessica for going to a strip club. I have no problem with that. What I found distasteful about Jessica's writeup was its disingenuousness and its prurient tone.

I acknowledge that "vapid" or "vacuous" would have been better word choices.

I was particularly moved by "E)You feel somewhat violated after leaving the place." Wrong. Violated is what happened to the club's underage dancers. If you and your buds decide to have a little transgressive fun by going sightseeing at a waterfront dive that has bullet holes in the windows, and afterward you walk out with your wallet plus howevermuch virtue you had going in, you may feel unclean or grossed out, but you can hardly lay claim to violation.

j h woodyatt, I like the idea of dancing transsexuals with guns. It would bring a much-needed infusion of vril to the standard gun control debates.

Posted November 20, 2005 3:34 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

I'm just guessing that the transsexuals with guns are dancin' the Bouncer Slay Twist.

(Rataplan, rataplan, rataplan, plan, plan.)

Posted November 20, 2005 4:26 PM by Kip W

I have to say I didn't find Karol's post "prurient" in tone, and even if I had, if one can't take a prurient tone writing about a strip club, just when can one?

If she feels "violated," it's probably because there is a very thin fourth wall at such places. I might not feel that way, having actually worked very, very briefly in a strip club, but I can understand easily enough how someone would.

Posted November 20, 2005 4:37 PM by Robert L

I went and read Jessica's blog.

Is she really a "political consultant"? I can't fit the label with what I read in the blog. Have I mistaken a third-party advert for self-description? Or is it the latest label for a very junior worker in a politician's office?

There's nothing wrong with the giggly girlie-girl stuff, but it does clash with the label.

Posted November 20, 2005 6:56 PM by Dave Bell

Surprisingly, my puny dictionary doesn't have the word vril. The Wikipedia entry gives an excellent explanation, but dammit— that is an extremely cool word. It really ought to be in my dictionary. I have something new to complain about this weekend.

Posted November 20, 2005 8:59 PM by j h woodyatt

j h woodhyatt said Dancing transvestites firing guns. Now there's an idea even more brilliant than Snakes On A Plane.

Actually, Dancing Transvestites Firing Guns sounds like a great band name, to me :-)

Posted November 20, 2005 9:06 PM by Bruce Adelsohn

I wanna see pole dancing trannies with gun holsters....

I don't think they have them at Missie B's. (our local drag q
queen perfomance venue..._

Posted November 20, 2005 9:49 PM by Paula Helm Murray

Teresa: yes, I knew Patrick played in a rock band, and had seen that Whisperado was playing at the Pussycat Lounge, but I had just wanted to confirm that you hadn't taken up accompanying the band. I figured it was possible you had, in your spare time, taken up the pan flute. Or maybe the zither.

Posted November 20, 2005 10:15 PM by Will Entrekin

Wow, how old are we? Only an overemotional, angry, thick-skulled feminist like yourself would bring politics into the equation where it is completely unwarranted.

By the way, I've played guitar and violin in bands for the last five years here in New York and I know all too well how many venues there are to choose from, especially for a baby band starting out. I'd recommend getting your own hobby instead of promoting your husband's band at a venue where you'll be just one floor above topless dancers being 'violated'. Oh, but you'll be having a blast dancing and schmoozing with the crowd, won't you? Of course you will!

Here's a bit of advice. Maybe once you stop trying so hard people will start to like you.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:15 AM by Jessica

As ever, I'm on the edge of my seat to see when dsmvwllng kicks in.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:27 AM by Jonathan Shaw

Heads up for Jessica:

Being a topless dancer doesn't automatically mean you've been/are being violated.

The specific reference was to the Sweet Cherry, where dancers were allegedly required to have sex with the boss in order to get a job. You may have noticed he's been indicted for rape. Would you tend to agree that those particular women might have been violated?

Posted November 21, 2005 1:41 AM by James D. Macdonald

Dancing Transvestites Firing Guns as a band name? Maybe. I'm waiting for Cross-Dressing Cowboys with Live Ammunition, which is a particularly tasty phrase Will Shetterly gave me a couple of years back.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:20 AM by elise

I'm coming to the conclusion that the problem with the current version of the Republican party is that there's not an adult in it.

After reading our current visitors' blogs with their attendant twittering about sex, and considering the adolescent mind set that most of that party has regarding the topic, I think it's a reasonable conclusion.

When you add in the juvenile bullying (of entire countries, even), the insistance on dividing the world into us and them, the total lack of interest in how their actions will affect their future -

it reminds me of nothing so much as the least attractive bits of high school.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:38 AM by Margaret Organ-Kean

Okay, I'm now thinking "strikingly stupid" was a pretty good call.

Posted November 21, 2005 3:01 AM by j h woodyatt

Oh, and on a related note, here is good place to start learning about the Lusty Lady chapter of SEIU Local 790 in San Francisco, the first union shop for exotic dancers.

Posted November 21, 2005 3:12 AM by j h woodyatt

Jessica doesn't seem a likely candidate for disemvowelling: her vocabulary's big enough to avoid the grosser sorts of insults. I'm waiting to see if she will demonstrate knowledge of the first rule of getting out of holes.

Admittedly, it's not as entertaining as the bigger Republican meltdowns further down the east coast, but it's a nice little sideshow. Anybody have some more popcorn?

Posted November 21, 2005 3:23 AM by Doug

Near as I can tell, I was in Madison, WI

You were? Cool. Hope it was at least mildly fun.

Posted November 21, 2005 3:27 AM by kayjay

the first rule of getting out of holes is to head for china.

Posted November 21, 2005 3:53 AM by Bryan

*offers Margaret the missing "junior" from her last sentence.*

Posted November 21, 2005 4:41 AM by Bruce Adelsohn

The Wikipedia entry on Vril notes that Bovril is a portmanteau name composed of Bovine and Vril, but calls it an "English drink".

Bovril can indeed be made into a hot, beefy drink by adding boiling water, but it is sold as a black goo in a jar not unlike Marmite or Vegemite (apart from being the exact opposite on the Vegetarian scale), and it can be spread on bread before adding cheese and toasting for a tasty snack.

On the subject of toasting things, I have an American recipe book which makes frequent use of the verb to broil. From context and my Oxford dictionary, this appears to mean the same thing as the English to grill. Yes? No?

Posted November 21, 2005 6:12 AM by Niall McAuley

In the US, "broiling" is cooking with high radiant heat, so yes, grilling is a form of broiling. The heat can come from either direction; the broiler in my gas stove is in a drawer below the oven, so the food will be directly under the flames. And the last stop on my toaster oven's temp dial is "broil."

So now I'm curious: is "London broil" -- broiled strips of flank steak -- not in fact English, whether from London or Milton Keynes? (I wouldn't be at all surprised if it weren't.)

Posted November 21, 2005 6:24 AM by John M. Ford

I've never heard of London Broil, but according to beefusa.org:

- London Broil took its name from London, England, but originated in the US

and if you can't trust a casual Google, what can you trust?

Posted November 21, 2005 6:40 AM by Niall McAuley

I began reading this thinking that Jessica and Karol were both friends of TNH having fun with her. But after reading Jessica's last post, I understand. Neither one of them have a clue about who TNH and PNH are, probably think they are clueless 20 year olds with a blog. I giggle at the idea of T dancing on a pole at the Pussycat or somehow needing support from her husband's band.

They simply googled their own names and found themselves here.

The adjectives I would use are clueless and useless.

Jane

Posted November 21, 2005 6:57 AM by jane

I simply have to chuckle at the use of "feminist" as an insult. What an odd mindset.

Posted November 21, 2005 7:57 AM by Larry Brennan

Niall: If you look at a jar of Bovril now, you'll see that it's completely vegetarian. I think it even has Vegetarian Society approval.

Posted November 21, 2005 8:33 AM by Feòrag

I figured it was possible you had, in your spare time, taken up the pan flute.

Teresa has spare time?

Posted November 21, 2005 8:37 AM by Tina

"Only an overemotional, angry, thick-skulled..."

*koff*projection*koff*

Posted November 21, 2005 8:44 AM by Bruce Arthurs

Doesn't even require googling yourself in this age of trackbacks. (They don't sound like the sort who would know how to check their referrer log manually.)

Posted November 21, 2005 8:49 AM by Dan Guy

Nothing like hearing someone who has benefitted so much from feminism using that word as an insult... Lots of those in the GOP.

Linking the current tenor of this thread to its original subject of the crime next door... How about having some of the site's members dress up like old-style mobsters then having them visit annoying Republicans. I'd be nervous if John M. Ford/Hugo Weaving and James MacDonald/Tom Connolly showed up at my place and said:

"Ma Teresa wants us to take you for a ride."

Posted November 21, 2005 8:53 AM by Serge

Feòrag, I'm shocked!

I only hope poor old Chris Bonington doesn't find out.

Posted November 21, 2005 9:25 AM by Niall McAuley

"I simply have to chuckle at the use of "feminist" as an insult. What an odd mindset."

I don't think it's anything new, especially from Republicans. Rush Limbaugh morphed the word into "feminazi" to convey his own feelings toward feminism back as early as 1993.

Posted November 21, 2005 9:30 AM by Will Entrekin

It's incredible to me that after reading a handful of posts people seem to *know* all about Jessica and their "conservative" friends. Because you know describing the place as a off-color and unusual in your daily life screams of "over indulgent manhantanite lifestyle". Just for clarification all that Karol or Jessica were trying to communicate that they had a good time in a place where people, such as yourself, might not associate evil, sex-hating, feminist-hating (cause you know strip clubs are great place to assert your feminism, except for sleazy ones like Sweet Cherry, because unlike the SF ones they aren't unionized) conservatives. Seriously i can't believe people spent time thinking whether Karol, Jessica, and co. knew if it was a seedy bar before going. To dissect Jessica's post in such extremes, which by the way was written that way as a rhetorical device to make the post amusing and fun, only speaks to your insecurities and deluded opinions of self-righteous.

Lis, you know you're right i never did get around telling my mommy and daddy about the experience. But you know if i was a liberal i would feel all safe and warm telling my parents about it. Sigh... if only i didn't have to hide my deviant sexual desires from my parents the world would be a better place.

Margaret Organ-Kean,
When you write "When you add in the juvenile bullying (of entire countries, even), the insistance on dividing the world into us and them, the total lack of interest in how their actions will affect their future" you realize this is an instance of the pot calling the kettle black, right?

Posted November 21, 2005 9:49 AM by Petitedov

Ww, ths sms lk qt th ntllctl bnch. S mch s, n fct, tht 'm sr w'll sn b sbjctd t dscssn f th tr mnng f 's.' Scrw th ppcrn, smn gt m cgr.

Posted November 21, 2005 10:10 AM by Jsn

Robert: Yes, I know you worked at a strip club. You told me about it once.

I didn't find Karol's post prurient. I was talking about Jessica's. Also, the prurience I perceived there wasn't about the sex, but rather about what a wicked low dive it was. Homo sum; nihil humanum mihi alienum puto, wherefore I am not a modern Republican.

Dave Bell, given the tone of her most recent comment, I have trouble believing she's a political consultant in any conventional sense of the term. Perhaps there's something else she's good at?

Niall, what Mike said. In currant US usage, the distinction between grilling and broiling is whether the food makes contact with the heating element. If it does, it's grilling.

Posted November 21, 2005 10:11 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Do you suppose all their friends are going to come in and completely miss the point? This is like watching them play "let's grab hold of the wrong end of the stick" as a party game.

Posted November 21, 2005 10:21 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

What's with all this talk about grilling? We're now into the braising season....

Posted November 21, 2005 10:25 AM by Richard Anderson

I like the idea of dancing transsexuals with guns. It would bring a much-needed infusion of vril to the standard gun control debates.--TNH

Then you might like Killer Transvestite (realaudio) by Feo Y Loco. I used to run sound for them. I think they'd've loved to be booked above a strip club.

Posted November 21, 2005 10:27 AM by Michael

[points at Petitedov] Look, argument with no evidence!

But you know if i was a liberal i would feel all safe and warm telling my parents about it.

*sigh* As fuzzy-headed liberals go, I'm pretty fuzzy, but I sure wouldn't tell my mom about going to a strip club, sleazy or otherwise--she doesn't ask about my sex life, and I don't ask about hers, and we're both quite happy that way. But that's rather not the point; the point is that I wouldn't make self-congradulatory blog posts about how I was slumming, either.

There's more I could say on this subject, but--and I realize this is a failure of my character--I just can't justify spending my time on trying to educate someone who refuses to think...

Posted November 21, 2005 10:39 AM by Carrie S.

I'd just like to thank everyone upstream of this posting for contriving to make this thread a much more attractive time sink than the galley I'm currently supposed to be proofreading.

Obligatory killer transvestite content: anyone else read Killer in Drag by Ed Wood (yes, that Ed Wood)?

Posted November 21, 2005 10:40 AM by Charlie Stross

Wll, 'm nthr cnsrvtv frnd f hrs, nd t fnd yr h-s-clvr "sd" jst chldsh nd ptty. Wht's th pnt? Tht t's fnny tht Rpblcns g t sdy rs nd fnd sdy bhvr thr? W lv n bg wrld - r crtn rs nly th prvnnc f lbrls? Bllsht. Y ssm tht, jst bcs thy'r Rpblcns, y knw crtn thngs bt thm. Jst bcs smn fvrs lwr txs nd n ggrssv frgn plcy dsn't mn nythng mr bt wh thy r thrws. Tht's th fndmntl msndrstndng lbrls hv bt cnsrvtvs, tht thy'r ll ptght nd cltrlly cllss - slly csd by nt ctlly knwng ny n rl lf, by th wy.

h, nd wht's "mssng th pnt"? Thnkng tht ths ws jst n ttck n sxl hypcrsy? f s, plnty f yr wn cmmntrs sm t hv mssd th pnt t. Fl fr t scld thm wy.

Posted November 21, 2005 10:43 AM by Yrn

Hey, you remember that night that Tex and Juggy showed up at the strip club and got all wild and shit. I should totally tell that story in this thread. I bet Jessica would appreciate it.

Those two are so... declasse

Posted November 21, 2005 10:45 AM by Bryan

I guess I was right, Lis, about their not being interested in an actual debate. And when they can't come up with a valid argument, they bring up Bill Clinton's sins. Which reminds me of Field of Dreams's scene where Amy Madigan's character has a run-in with the local book-burner. The latter, when faced with a logical argument, can only make an irrelevent reference to her hubby being a weirdo who hears voices in his corn field. To which Madigan responds:

"Now there's an intelligent answer."

Posted November 21, 2005 10:48 AM by Serge

Those two are so... declasse

Add clueless. I read Jessica's 'trip to CA' post. She seems to think a few days in Palo Alto at someone's (large, very expensive) house and a few days in Big Sur have qualified her to speak about How Wonderful California Is. Not. Jessica, please stay in NYC and make those of us who live in CA happy.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:02 AM by P J Evans

If I ever write an SF novel with dinosaurs, sodomy, and transvestites with guns, I know just the place to get it published....

Posted November 21, 2005 11:02 AM by Seth Gordon

No, *this* reminds me of nothing so much as the least attractive bits of high school:

"Here's a bit of advice. Maybe once you stop trying so hard people will start to like you."

Sweetie, honey, this one topic probably has more comments than one of your gals' blogs -- that is, if you Republican Ladies Who Slum actually allow comments to take place. (I'd sample one of those sites myself, but, you know, *cooties*?)

Who ever in the Wide Wide World of Sports wanted you to like this blog? Which person posting here is so desperate for your approval that he or she must change her posting behavior, right now, so as to keep his or her cache with your posse of kool kidz?

In terms of your tone and content, the temptation to say exactly what I feel would earn me instant dsmvwllmnt, and I'd rather spend a night in the company of drunken, neocon, faux-hipster slatterns than risk that, thank you very much.

Yes, I know, someone's done a better job of demolition, above....

Posted November 21, 2005 11:04 AM by cgeye

Srg: n ctl dbt n wht? Th nly pnn bng dvncd hr s "ths grls r stpd, nd w r smrt".

cgy: Tht's splld "ccht".

Posted November 21, 2005 11:16 AM by Yrn

Actually, having sampled both Karol's and Jessica's blogs, they sound like giggling high-school students. You know, the ones who spent most of their time in front of the mirror fixing their hair and their makeup, and ignoring everyone else.

Girls, if you can say that you didn't know what you were getting into when you walked into a place with a sign reading 'topless entertainment', you are truly clueless. It's right up there with 'gentlemen's club' and 'sports bar' for translation as 'the only females inside will be employees'.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:22 AM by P J Evans

Yaron: You say "I'm another conservative friend of hers,"-- with whom are you friends? The two previous posts to yours belong to Cassie, and then to Teresa. I want to guess your Cassie's friend, but I'm unclear.

And concerning your most recent post, the opinion isn't actually "these girls are stupid, and we are smart." The opinion actually put forth has been stated rather clearly several times, and I'd clarify it again, but you'll probably just ignore it, like you did the other instances.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:24 AM by Will Entrekin

For people who do not like either liberal blogs or sleezy dives, these girls sure spend an awful lot of time in both places.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:26 AM by Keith Kisser

If I went to a topless club, I might or might not tell my mother about it.

But if I wasn't going to, I wouldn't post about it in my blog.

I realize that not everyone's mother reads their blogs or online journals, though mine does. But if there's something you don't want your mother--or your boss, or your ex-husband, or any other person--to know, don't post it to the Internet. They might find it, whether by looking for your name, or by accident, or because someone who knows you both offhandedly says "Did you know your daughter went to a strip club last week?"

Posted November 21, 2005 11:29 AM by Vicki

No, Yaron. It's all about each side's attitude toward sex and how your side has been using ours to depict as a bunch of degenerates who can't be left alone in a room with the neightbor's dog. Say what you will, as with the hokeypokey, that's what it's all about.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:29 AM by Serge

Oh, and, yes, Yaron, I did write "neightbor's dog" while I meant it to be "neighbor's dog". That's called a typo. You do know the concept?

Posted November 21, 2005 11:33 AM by Serge

Srg: f tht's wht y thnk th sbjct s, thn ccrdng t Trs y'r cmpltly mssng th pnt.

Wll: frnds wth Jssc. 'm ls frnds wth Krl.

n n "ctl dbt" prsnl ttcks r frbddn. Hr tht's... ll nyn's dng.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:35 AM by Yrn

s sl, whr thr s dbt ftrng lbrls nd cnsrvtvs, lbrls knck thmslvs t t rg thr wn stpdty. Yt nthr mdl rght hr. t's bvs frm yr bnxs lttl pst tht y wr trllng fr hts nd bt f rcgntn. Prhps mmmy nd dddy nvr tld y tht ngtv ttntn s rrly th wy t g. Bt hts ff t y; grl-wh-prfts-frm-tplss-dncrs-sh-pts-nd-rls-t-Jssc-fr-vwng s dspt yr nhrnt stpdty, vn y cn s yr hbby's lttl bnd wll mst lkly prft frm t's bnfcl ggrphy.

Sms y knw hw t mnplt vry ngl, h? S lk lbrl.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:39 AM by r

I fail to see how my comments in re Bovril can be construed as personal attacks on Karol or Jessica.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:44 AM by Niall McAuley

Ari

You wrote:

As usual, where there is a debate featuring liberals and conservatives, liberals knock themselves out to argue their own stupidity. Yet another model right here. It's obvious from your obnoxious little post that you were trolling for hits and a bit of recognition.

Uh, Ari? Do you have any idea how much traffic a link FROM MakingLight generates? Trust me, Teresa and Patrick don't need any traffic.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:45 AM by Lisa Spangenberg

Ari:

I don't think you realize how little TNH has to troll for hits or recognition.

Or who PNH or TNH are in the first place. Or what they actually do in their day jobs.

A little research before posting can make all the difference between sounding clueless or informed.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:46 AM by James

"It's obvious from your obnoxious little post that you were trolling for hits and a bit of recognition."

Actually, Ari, that's not at all obvious, not to mention blindingly, stunningly wrong. Toward the end of August/beginning of September, MSNBC mentioned Making Light as a resource for survivors and victims of Hurricane Katrina. So Making Light obviously -already- has its share of hits and "a bit of recognition." Just because you've never encountered it before doesn't mean it wasn't already there.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:51 AM by Will Entrekin

Larry: I simply have to chuckle at the use of "feminist" as an insult. What an odd mindset.

Will: I don't think it's anything new, especially from Republicans.

No, it's nothing new. I was surprised that Larry found it novel enough to chuckle at.

As for the cockroaches scuttling around upthread: "clueless" doesn't even begin to cover it. Super-mega-giga-clueless, maybe.

Posted November 21, 2005 11:52 AM by Laura Roberts

Here's a bit of advice. Maybe once you stop trying so hard people will start to like you.

Haha, wht lsrs.

Ditto Ari's entry just above..."trolling for hits and bits of recognition." ROFL, these people have no idea who they're even addressing! Clues, clues here! $0.25!

Posted November 21, 2005 11:56 AM by Xopher (Christopher Hatton)

I missed the point, Yaron? Oh no! How can I live with myself.

This is going round and round and I have better things to do with my life than responding to people who aren't listening. Better things, like trying to avoid a collision with someone who cuts my off very close when changing lanes and who then cuts me off when I change lanes again, all this because I have a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker.

Ta-ta...

Posted November 21, 2005 11:57 AM by Serge

Charlie: Yes, I have; my daughter snagged a copy at the local used book shop a couple years ago, and I read hers. Every wannabe-hip parent dreads and rejoices in the day when they find out that their kids have become cooler than themselves.

Posted November 21, 2005 12:00 PM by Clifton Royston

i know, i know, more fun to play with the guests. but look:

the mysterious and erotic falafel

FUNNY!

Posted November 21, 2005 12:14 PM by d

Srg: n th cntrry, ppr t b th nly n wh's lstnng t y.

Lr: m "cckrch"? Fr wht, dfndng my frnds frm hrtfl nslts by ppl wh dn't knw thm?

By th wy, wll nyn ctlly rspnd t my rgmnts? dbt t.

Posted November 21, 2005 12:16 PM by Yrn

I don't know how many here went to fairly conservative east coast top-25 universities in the last ten years (or spent time in the halls of Congress lately), but if you had, you would have encountered many Karols and many Jessicas. I'm afraid it's a bit of an epidemic. They tend to be bright, well-educated, beautiful, charming and have figured out that men in certain circles find such bright, educated, beautiful and charming women threatening. So they espouse the viewpoints of the monied, conservative white men who hold the reins of power, knowing that this (and perhaps flashing a tanned, toned leg) will get them in the proverbial door. It's a whole generation of Ann Coulters.

The sorts of conservatives that Karol, Jessica and Yaron are definitely aren't culturally clueless or uptight. They just find it personally advantageous to appear so, when it is convenient. For those keeping score, that's the hypocritical part. They can dress provocatively, yet object to sex ed being taught in school; they can call TNH a feminist in a mocking tone, yet take full advantage of the cultural changes people of her political stripe and her generation have wrought; object to high taxes when "Gluttony is so in this year" (priceless). Having their cake and eating it too; enjoying the thrill yet looking down their noses, just as other commenters have said, not only in strip clubs, but in life.

Posted November 21, 2005 12:17 PM by Alison

"By the way, will anyone actually respond to my arguments? I doubt it."

Um, I don't think you've actually made any arguments, Yaron. The nearest thing I could find was something like "All you liberals make ridiculous generalizations about your political opponents. This is something all liberals do."

Posted November 21, 2005 12:25 PM by KristianB

Yaron: you and your friends are cockroaches because you have infested this thread and left nasty little footprints all over it. Furthermore, although you were able to figure out that you were being insulted, you clearly do not understand the exact nature of the insults directed at you.

That's where the clueless part comes in.

Can anybody tell me if cockroaches are known for their intelligence? Because then I would have to apologize to the species.

Posted November 21, 2005 12:30 PM by Laura Roberts

KrstnB: myb y shld chck bck wth lsn, wh ctlly dd rspnd t sm f my rgmnts. Nt tht gr wth ny f t, mnd y, bt thr y hv t.

Lr: ths thrd ws nsty frm th vry bgnnng. nd... thr s n "xct ntr" t ths nslts. t's thrd-grd-lvl fr-fr-ll, f y hdn't ntcd.

Posted November 21, 2005 12:54 PM by Yrn

I wasn't fishing for these guys, but if I had been, I'd've tossed them back in after I measured them.

I hate to counsel mercy when y'all are having so much fun, but I'm starting to wonder whether it's possible that these kids are literally unable to follow the conversation. Judging from their descriptions of what they think is being said, they're all low-resolution readers.

A predictable thing is about to happen to one of them.

Posted November 21, 2005 12:58 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Ari: girl-who-profits-from-topless-dancers-she-pities-and-rails-at-Jessica-for-viewing

You see that dot over there? That's the point you're missing.

For some reason the comments have taken on a very definite "us and them" feel between 'liberals' and 'conservatives'. The problem is that those labels are so vague as to be meaningless. Plus, as the cookie says, all generalisations are false.

Karol/Jessica/Ari/etc. - nobody here particularly knows you, what you like/dislike, what you're like off-line, etc. Please remember that you know just as little about the people here.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:02 PM by Paul

I saw a pretty girl once in the middle of a crowd/mosh pit(Pietasters show- ska, not punk) doing a sort of early-Madonna bop.

The amazing thing was, people were slamming into each other all around her and, successfully, avoiding her. Her expectations overruled Brownian motion.

Going to a place where people shoot guns, expecting to not get shot, and actually not getting shot is like that, only more so.

Me, I don't go to places with bullet holes in the windows. It's dangerous.

[I would like to thank 24fightingchickens.com for this insight. The specific article has been taken down, in hopes of publication. ]

Posted November 21, 2005 1:04 PM by Sandy

A predictable thing is about to happen to one of them.

They will be sodomized by a dinosaur?

Posted November 21, 2005 1:05 PM by Luthe

Alison, I think you'll find some of the same types in the British political world, mostly with job titles like "researcher".

Anyway, "political consultants" are ten a penny. If anyone wants some seriously fit totty, they should try "Trouble Consultants".

Posted November 21, 2005 1:07 PM by Dave Bell

I think you'll find some of the same types in the British political world, mostly with job titles like "researcher".

If this is true, I weep for the noble art of doing research, for it is truly one of the last bastions of non-partisanship.

Facts don't lie. People do. People can make the facts look like they lie, but in the end, facts are facts, and nothing can change them.

*scurries off to continue working with the Census data she is using for her grant writing*

Posted November 21, 2005 1:13 PM by Luthe

this thread was nasty from the very beginning.

It is true that when I read the fifth post, my first thought was "Wow, that was fast."

Posted November 21, 2005 1:19 PM by Laura Roberts

I can't believe Ari Fleischer is REALLY posting on this blog! You've hit the big time, Teresa and Patrick! Next thing you know, Scott McClellen will be here to defend himself. Then, it'll be George Bush Jr., himself.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:23 PM by Randall P.

Teresa: now that you've gotten out the red pen, I'd like to point out that it was very rude of me to call them cockroaches.

I almost regret it. Well, I regret the lapse of etiquette, not the possible accuracy of the term.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:27 PM by Laura Roberts

Thanks, everyone, for helping clear my confusion.

Yaron: "What's the point? That it's funny that Republicans go to seedy areas and find seedy behavior there?" This is an example of your fundamental missing of the actual point. This statement is most assuredly not the point. The point is that "these two girls went to areas they -knew- were 'seedy' and then blogged under the pretense (meaning, to pretend) that they were -surprised- to find 'seedy' behavior." I read the further comment about Republicans and sleazy sex as alluding to a previous post on Making Light, which discussed the phenomenon of conservative, mostly Republican authors, including but not limited to Scooter Libby and Bill O'Reilly, writing fiction which contains scenes of a salacious and lascivious nature when they are the ones (remember: -not limited to-) who most argue against sexual education. Who preach "family values" and "upright morals" but seek out entertainment at places they know are 'seedy' (the quotes in this sentence do not refer to statements from the bloggers).

I've mostly refrained from using big words for you. 'Salacious' and 'lascivious' mean having to do with lust and sex, mostly, with some negative connotation added. 'Connotation' an idea associated with a word.

(I note the above because I hope not to be misunderstood, and sometimes we say things we aren't explicit or clear about, which can reveal our beliefs. For example, you might find it interesting that, when you say "aggressive foreign policy," I understand you to mean "bombing the heck out of other countries without any real reason, which makes the rest of the world hate us.")

Posted November 21, 2005 1:36 PM by Will Entrekin

Tangent alert.

I know we started out being all about the dread horror of a neighbor possibly murdered, but Clifton said:
Every wannabe-hip parent dreads and rejoices in the day when they find out that their kids have become cooler than themselves.

And I just want to say something about that. Because I remember when my dad started asking me things about some aspects of popular culture (but he's still cooler than me). And I remember when I started getting stuff from my kids.

No dread for me, I was just thrilled. It was just like the first time my first-born showed me what he was doing in math and it was beyond what I had ever done. It's the same with the music and stuff. My second-born's the one who tosses me novels sometimes.

My kids are cooler than me, smarter than me, more competent than me, cuter than me (that part's not hard), and it's just really a great thing.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:38 PM by Lucy Kemnitzer

I don't think this is a characteristic specific to either conservatives or liberals, but the thing that I find puzzling about comments made by the so-called conservatives in this thread is that they all seem rather generic. One could transplant them into another argument where liberals and conservatives are squaring off and they could fit just as well.

It's worth noting that Yaron has mentioned that he disagrees with Alison, but has yet to explain exactly what is so disagreeable about what she wrote. An explanation of why he disagrees would show that he does understand the point being made as well as show in what way it is invalid. However, that would require him to write something which fits specifically within the context of this discussion rather than some sort of generic statement (or templatized statement) which fits equally well anywhere. The latter is all that I've seen from him so far.

I'm in the process of learning how to play bridge and I find it extremely helpful when after we've played a hand, we all show our hands and the more experienced players break down what has just happened and what alternative plays I might have made instead. Perhaps something like that would be useful here to help Yaron and who else may drive-by make specific, credible arguments worth responding to in the name of maintaining civil discourse.

Lest we forget, of course, Teresa's article is not actually about those who have chosen to come here and fight. It's about a guy who was murdered in her apartment building. That she makes reference to a blogger who (based on a brief reading of referred links) was either callously disingenuous about the types of places she visits or was so genuinely clueless that she honestly did not know the type of place until it was too late is incidental. (It does, however, give some insight to the place where the guy who got murdered worked.)

Teresa and Patrick, I wish you guys the best in dealing with what must be a really creepy situation

Posted November 21, 2005 1:45 PM by JC

Make that "a predictable thing is about to happen to two of them."

I don't think I need to explain why the poster formerly known as Ari lost his vowels. Jsn (who was disemvowelled earlier) was within bounds the first time he posted, but the second time around, his remarks consisted of weary old insults (bad) that had nothing to do with the conversation (very bad). Yrn only strayed into abusive language a few times, but either he's arguing without reading the argument -- a disemvowellable offense -- or he literally can't parse what's being said here, and for the good of his soul and ours ought not be encouraged to continue.

Posted November 21, 2005 1:48 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

j.h. woodyatt writes

Be careful about the pronoun tense when you write that down. We don't know whether Karol's friends were slumming.

Prounouns don't have tense. They have number. Teresa can't "be careful" because the language isn't built for it.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:10 PM by Lydy Nickerson

I've no doubt that the recently disemvowelled are currently complaining about how liberals don't want to engage in debate of the issues. Inasmuch as I'm a liberal and I don't want to engage in discussion of the issues with people like you, there's some truth to that.

Yaron, Karol, Jessica, Ari: Here's my personal reason why, in case you're legitimately confused:

In order to conduct a rational debate of issues, it would be necessary to hold out hopes that, somewhere deep down inside, you and yours are essentially good human beings with a core of decency that can be spoken to. I live in the deep south of the U.S.A and I've spent the last 15 years listening to persons of your political persuasion reinforce one another's worldviews and I no longer hold out such hope.

By voluntarily associating yourself with the monsters that currently run this country, you have placed yourself outside the boundaries of civilized interaction. Your enthusiastic embrace of the unconscionable, the unethical, and the atrocious is de facto proof that there is no good in you to reach. I'll confess to some mild curiosity as to whether it's your mind or your spirit that is the root of your pathology, but I'd have to interact with you to figure it out and I'm honestly not that interested. In the same spirit that I set traps for vermin in my garage rather than attempt to negotiate with them, I decided several years ago that I'm done wasting my time playing word games with the likes of you.

Applause to TNH for cleaning house.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:14 PM by Scott H

JC:

It's worth noting that Yaron has mentioned that he disagrees with Alison, but has yet to explain exactly what is so disagreeable about what she wrote. An explanation of why he disagrees would show that he does understand the point being made as well as show in what way it is invalid. However, that would require him to write something which fits specifically within the context of this discussion rather than some sort of generic statement (or templatized statement) which fits equally well anywhere. The latter is all that I've seen from him so far.

Maybe you should ask the administrator of this site, who hacks the comments of people she disagrees with. Talk about lack of interest in an actual debate.

Doesn't anyone here feel the least bit uneasy about this stunning breach of etiquette?

Posted November 21, 2005 2:16 PM by Yaron

Maybe you should ask the administrator of this site, who hacks the comments of people she disagrees with.

Don't read well, do you? Disemvowelling is for being rude to others without cause. You should google 'disemvowel' sometime.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:19 PM by P J Evans

Thanks, JC. It continues to be creepy. Yesterday I got to tell Simon, the next-door tenant who actually found Mr. Matos, that he'd been murdered. It was inadvertent. I thought he knew. Simon just froze, staring, for several seconds.

"I'm sorry," I said. "That was obviously a shock."

"Not any more than everything else has been," he said.

He told us -- we were standing outside, waiting for our ride -- that on Wednesday night he'd come out of his apartment to find the club owner standing out front, sniffing around the door to the basement apartment. "I think he may be dead," he said.

Simon volunteered to go in and look -- at a guess, because he's a tenant in the same building, and the club owner was a stranger. He came out again, fast, and didn't notice the entry wound. I expect I'd have done exactly the same thing, and possibly thrown up into the bargain.

Another upper-floor tenant in their building was also in on our conversation. He said (approximately) that the circumstances indicated an individual, explicable cause for this murder, not a general rise in violent crime in our neighborhood.

We all agreed that people can get killed anywhere.

(If either of those neighbors show up here and read this, please forgive me if I mixed up your names or jumbled your quotes. I wasn't taking notes at the time.)

Posted November 21, 2005 2:25 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Disemvowelling is for being rude to others without cause

But I wasn't rude to anyone, which you could see for yourself if my comments weren't hacked.

I don't know why I'm still here, I must be a masochist.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:27 PM by Yaron

'someone he knew' - being shot in the top of the head makes it sound to me like someone he knew and trusted: I don't let strangers do that, and most of the people I work with wouldn't be allowed that close, never mind that I've known some of them for several years.

Posted November 21, 2005 2:30 PM by P J Evans

Of course, it goes without saying that the surest way for Yaron to signal interest in rational discourse would be to attempt some. In responding to my previous message by attacking Teresa's rather effective method of maintaining rational and civil discourse instead, I have to conclude that I've been wrong about Yaron and he is, in fact, more interested in attacking to attempt score