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      <title>Making Light :: The War is Over! :: comments</title>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#comments </link>
      <description>Language, fraud, folly, truth, history, and knitting. Et cetera.</description>
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      <lastBuildDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:17:10 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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      <title>The War is Over!</title>
      <description>O happy day! Bush's war in Iraq is over: Army recruiters are telling kids so. Nov. 3, 2006 -- An...</description>
      <content:encoded>O happy day! Bush's war in Iraq is over: Army recruiters are telling kids so. Nov. 3, 2006 -- An...</content:encoded>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html</link>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #1 from Writerious</title>
         <description>comment from Writerious on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, darn that reality-based liberal media, telling us that troops are getting blown to bits in Iraq. Don't they understand that The Decider makes reality for us?</p>

<p>And as for those troops getting blown up -- um, er, well, must be Clinton's fault. Yeah, that's it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  1:17 PM by Writerious&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149757</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:17:10 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #2 from Bruce Arthurs</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Arthurs on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I told someone, anyone,that "The war in Iraq is over," and they said "Really?", I would assume that:</p>

<p>1) They were profoundly retarded.</p>

<p>2) They were WAY-Y-Y-Y messed up on drugs.</p>

<p>3) They had just stumbled out of the deep woods where they had been raised since infancy by squirrels.</p>

<p>Or 4) All of the above.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  1:26 PM by Bruce Arthurs&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149758</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:26:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #3 from dee</title>
         <description>comment from dee on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So was Kerry's slip of the tongue right? If you're ignorant, and believe the recruiters instead of, I dunno, googling the news sites, you get stuck in Iraq.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  1:30 PM by dee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149759</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:30:30 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #4 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>...The Decider makes reality for us...</i></p>

<p>Writerious, I thought that was George Orr's job, not George Bush's. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  1:36 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149760</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:36:49 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #5 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm going to finish up transcribing "Come and Be a Soldier," since, to my surprise, no full text appears to exist on the Google-indexed web.</p>

<p>So come and be a soldier, the bravest of the brave.<br />
Come and be a soldier, and then you'll be a slave;<br />
Come to Colonel White, my lads, but don't pretend to cry,<br />
For if you are not happy we can flog you till you die.</p>

<p>If you strike your officer, you must die against your will,<br />
Or come in drunk at night, lads, you get six hours extra drill.<br />
Or perhaps you go to the battle-field where soon you will get warm,<br />
By shooting men you never saw, nor did you any harm.</p>

<p>Perhaps you will get killed, my lads, but never mind that there<br />
You will die with honour, lads, then be free from care.<br />
Perhaps leave a wife and children, but they'll soon be forgotten,<br />
What's wife and family to you when you are dead and rotten.</p>

<p>Did you ever think, my lads, or ever go to school,<br />
He who is a soldier must be a silly fool.<br />
Talk of honour, that is nonsense, it is an idle story,<br />
Live like honest men, my lads, and that's real glory.</p>

<p>Never be so silly, lads, to fight for kings and queens,<br />
For none of them is half so good as half a bunch of greens,<br />
Shooting at your fellow-man it is a curious thing,<br />
The Almighty made the human race, but never made a king.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  1:41 PM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149761</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 13:41:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #6 from JESR</title>
         <description>comment from JESR on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serge, maybe, if we're lucky, everyone will wake up grey tomorrow.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:01 PM by JESR&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149763</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:01:12 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #7 from mythago</title>
         <description>comment from mythago on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It COULD also mean being sent somewhere else, especially when the next quick-distract-the-public crisis comes up. Say, North Korea.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:09 PM by mythago&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149765</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:09:42 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #8 from Jean</title>
         <description>comment from Jean on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So do your duty, boys, and join with pride<br />
Serve your country in her suicide<br />
Find the flags so you can wave goodbye<br />
But just before the end even treason might be worth a try<br />
This country is to young to die</p>

<p>        I declare the war is over<br />
        It's over, it's over...</p>

<p>Phil Ochs, <a href="http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/war-is-over.html" rel="nofollow">War is Over</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:11 PM by Jean&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149766</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:11:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #9 from Daniel Boone</title>
         <description>comment from Daniel Boone on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See also <a href="http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=4765" rel="nofollow">Press Gang</a> (trad.):</p>

<p><i>As I walked out on London Street<br />
A press gang there I chanced to meet<br />
They asked me if I'd join the fleet<br />
On board of a man-o-war, boys</i></p>

<p><i>Come brother shipmates tell to me<br />
What kind of treatment they give you<br />
That I may know before I go<br />
On board of a man-o-war, boys</i></p>

<p><i>When I got there to my surprise<br />
All they had told me was shocking lies...</i></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:16 PM by Daniel Boone&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149767</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:16:52 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #10 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe, JESR. Maybe alien turtles will land on Earth and will turn out to be not invaders but nice guys who like the Beatles.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:19 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149768</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:19:43 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #11 from Harry Connolly</title>
         <description>comment from Harry Connolly on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say is: <i>Thank Goodness!</i>  That war thing was really troubling me for a while--so much so that I stopped listening to NPR, reading newspapers or looking at anything online but pictures of cute little kitties.</p>

<p>Anyway, I'm glad the Iraq War is all finished up now.  I guess I'll go online to see who won.  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:20 PM by Harry Connolly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149770</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:20:37 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #12 from Lisa Goldstein</title>
         <description>comment from Lisa Goldstein on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James D. Macdonald -- Sorry, but my inner proofreader took over when you said you were getting together a complete version of "Come and Be a Soldier" -- "yokle" should be "yokel."  Otherwise, great job.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:49 PM by Lisa Goldstein&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149771</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:49:14 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #13 from Alan Hamilton</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Hamilton on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote>2) They were WAY-Y-Y-Y messed up on drugs.</blockquote>
Funny you should say that.  Also in the article:
<blockquote>One Colorado student taped a recruiting session posing as a drug-addicted dropout.
"You mean I'm not going to get in trouble?" the student asked.
The recruiters told him no, and helped him cheat to sign up.</blockquote>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:56 PM by Alan Hamilton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149772</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:56:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #14 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Yokle" is how it's spelled in the facsimile text I'm taking this from.  (So too the sometimes-bizarre punctuation.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:57 PM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149774</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:57:41 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #15 from LauraJMixon</title>
         <description>comment from LauraJMixon on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kids are inclined to accept what people in positions of perceived authority tell them.</p>

<p>This makes me so angry I can hardly stand it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  2:58 PM by LauraJMixon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149775</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 14:58:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #16 from CaseyL</title>
         <description>comment from CaseyL on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>"Kids are inclined to accept what people in positions of perceived authority tell them."</i></p>

<p>They are?  Wow, teenagers sure have changed since I was one.  Teenage boys, esp., I don't recall being particularly submissive to authority.</p>

<p>Seriously, someone showing up at a recruiting office who <i>doesn't know</i> we're still at war in Iraq is... not someone I'd want to hand a gun to.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  4:35 PM by CaseyL&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149783</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 16:35:20 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #17 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is stunningly dishonorable.  Isn't this lying a violation of the officer's oath?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  4:57 PM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149786</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 16:57:53 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #18 from Dave Bell</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Bell on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>O'er the hills and o'er the main<br />
Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain.<br />
King George commands and we obey<br />
Over the hills and far away.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  5:17 PM by Dave Bell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149788</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 17:17:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #19 from Scott Taylor</title>
         <description>comment from Scott Taylor on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randolph Fritz wrote - <br />
<i>This is stunningly dishonorable. Isn't this lying a violation of the officer's oath?</i></p>

<p>Recruiters - at least in the Army, and I believe all branches - are rarely if ever commissioned officers - they are normally NCOs - staff sargeants, typically. Worse, they are often operating without direct supervision by an officer - many recruiting offices are small hole-in-the-wall kind of places (even if well-placed and not-cheap in rent), usually with little more than enough room for a handful of desks with computers, some filing cabinets holding paperwork and recruiting materials, and a closet and maybe a W/C. There are rarely more than a handful of personnel assigned to each. </p>

<p>This does not excuse such behavior - and it would in fact be "behavior unbecoming an officer", imho - but it can help explain how such things can happen. As can the fact that these NCOs (and the officers above them) have quotas to fill - and failure to fill quota can result in a bad review (at best). </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  6:33 PM by Scott Taylor&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149794</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 18:33:37 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #20 from Velma deSelby Bowen</title>
         <description>comment from Velma deSelby Bowen on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am disgusted, angry, and unsurprised. My oldest great-nephews are about 15-18; I think I'm going to call them up and ask them what they've been told.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  6:52 PM by Velma deSelby Bowen&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149796</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 18:52:14 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #21 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This takes dying for a lie one nasty step further.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  7:08 PM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149800</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 19:08:57 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #22 from j h woodyatt</title>
         <description>comment from j h woodyatt on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While we're collecting anti-recruiting songs...</p>

<p>I had a first cousin called <a href="http://www.chivalry.com/cantaria/lyrics/arthur-mcbride.html" rel="nofollow">Arthur McBride</a><br />
He and I took a stroll down by the seaside;<br />
Seeking good fortune and what might betide<br />
It was just as the day was a'dawnin'</p>

<p>After restin' we both took a tramp<br />
We met Sergeant Harper and Corporal Cramp<br />
Besides the wee drummer who beat up the camp<br />
With his row-dee-dow-dow in the morning</p>

<p>He says my young fellows if you will enlist<br />
A guinea you quickly will have in your fist<br />
Besides a crown for to kick up the dust<br />
And drink the King's health in the morning</p>

<p>For a soldier he leads a very fine life<br />
He always is blessed with a charming young wife<br />
And he pays all his debts without sorrow or strife<br />
And always lives happy and charming</p>

<p>And a soldier he always is decent and clean<br />
In the finest of garments he's constantly seen<br />
While other poor fellows go dirty and mean<br />
And sup on thin gruel in the morning</p>

<p>Says Arthur, I wouldn't be proud of your clothes<br />
You've only the lend of them as I suppose<br />
And you dare not change them one night or you know<br />
If you do you'll be flogged in the morning</p>

<p>And although we are single and free<br />
We take great delight in our own company<br />
And we have no desire strange countries to see<br />
Although your offer is charming</p>

<p>And we have no desire to take your advance<br />
All hazards and danger we barter on chance<br />
and you'd have no scruples to send us to France<br />
Where we would be shot without warning</p>

<p>And now says the sergeant, if I hear but one word<br />
I'll instantly now will out with my sword<br />
And into your bodies as strength will afford<br />
So now my gay devils take warning</p>

<p>But Arthur and I we took the odds<br />
We gave them no chance to launch out their swords<br />
Whacking shillelaghs came over their heads<br />
And paid them right smart in the morning</p>

<p>As for the wee drummer, we rifled his pow<br />
And made a football of his row-do-dow-dow<br />
Into the ocean to rock and to roll<br />
And bade it a tedious returnin'</p>

<p>As for the old rapier that hung by his side<br />
We flung it as far as we could in the tide<br />
To the Devil I pitch you, says Arthur McBride<br />
To temper your steel in the morning</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  7:42 PM by j h woodyatt&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149803</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 19:42:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #23 from Lisa Goldstein</title>
         <description>comment from Lisa Goldstein on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James D. Macdonald @ 14 -- Y'know, I realized that was probably the reason just after I hit Post.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  8:09 PM by Lisa Goldstein&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149807</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:09:58 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #24 from Janet Lafler</title>
         <description>comment from Janet Lafler on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I've been thinking about a lot the last couple of months -- the draft. Of course, with the election coming up, nobody in either party will mention it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's on the agenda when the next session of Congress begins. Then again, maybe not -- neither party wants to be the one to take the political heat for it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  9:26 PM by Janet Lafler&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149814</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 21:26:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #25 from Luthe</title>
         <description>comment from Luthe on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Came to talk about the draft.</p>

<p>They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street,<br />
where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected,<br />
neglected and selected.  I went down to get my physical examination one<br />
day, and I walked in, I sat down, got good and drunk the night before, so<br />
I looked and felt my best when I went in that morning.  `Cause I wanted to<br />
look like the all-American kid from New York City, man I wanted, I wanted<br />
to feel like the all-, I wanted to be the all American kid from New York,<br />
and I walked in, sat down, I was hung down, brung down, hung up, and all<br />
kinds o' mean nasty ugly things. And I waked in and sat down and they gave<br />
me a piece of paper, said, "Kid, see the phsychiatrist, room 604."</p>

<p>And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill.  I mean, I wanna, I<br />
wanna kill.  Kill.  I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore and<br />
guts and veins in my teeth.  Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,<br />
KILL, KILL."  And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL," and<br />
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumping up and down<br />
yelling, "KILL, KILL."  And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on me,<br />
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."</p>

<p>Didn't feel too good about it.</p>

<p>Proceeded on down the hall gettin more injections, inspections,<br />
detections, neglections and all kinds of stuff that they was doin' to me<br />
at the thing there, and I was there for two hours, three hours, four<br />
hours, I was there for a long time going through all kinds of mean nasty<br />
ugly things and I was just having a tough time there, and they was<br />
inspecting, injecting every single part of me, and they was leaving no<br />
part untouched.  Proceeded through, and when I finally came to the see the<br />
last man, I walked in, walked in sat down after a whole big thing there,<br />
and I walked up and said, "What do you want?"  He said, "Kid, we only got<br />
one question. Have you ever been arrested?"</p>

<p>And I proceeded to tell him the story of the Alice's Restaurant Massacre,<br />
with full orchestration and five part harmony and stuff like that and all<br />
the phenome... - and he stopped me right there and said, "Kid, did you ever<br />
go to court?"</p>

<p>And I proceeded to tell him the story of the twenty seven eight-by-ten<br />
colour glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on<br />
the back of each one, and he stopped me right there and said, "Kid, I want<br />
you to go and sit down on that bench that says Group W .... NOW kid!!"</p>

<p>And I, I walked over to the, to the bench there, and there is, Group W's<br />
where they put you if you may not be moral enough to join the army after<br />
committing your special crime, and there was all kinds of mean nasty ugly<br />
looking people on the bench there.  Mother rapers.  Father stabbers.  Father<br />
rapers!  Father rapers sitting right there on the bench next to me!  And<br />
they was mean and nasty and ugly and horrible crime-type guys sitting on the<br />
bench next to me. And the meanest, ugliest, nastiest one, the meanest<br />
father raper of them all, was coming over to me and he was mean 'n' ugly<br />
'n' nasty 'n' horrible and all kind of things and he sat down next to me<br />
and said, "Kid, whad'ya get?"  I said, "I didn't get nothing, I had to pay<br />
$50 and pick up the garbage."  He said, "What were you arrested for, kid?"<br />
And I said, "Littering."  And they all moved away from me on the bench<br />
there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I<br />
said, "And creating a nuisance."  And they all came back, shook my hand,<br />
and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing,<br />
father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the<br />
bench.  And everything was fine, we was smoking cigarettes and all kinds of<br />
things, until the Sargeant came over, had some paper in his hand, held it<br />
up and said.</p>

<p>"Kids, this-piece-of-paper's-got-47-words-37-sentences-58-words-we-wanna-<br />
know-details-of-the-crime-time-of-the-crime-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-<br />
you-gotta-say-pertaining-to-and-about-the-crime-I-want-to-know-arresting-<br />
officer's-name-and-any-other-kind-of-thing-you-gotta-say", and talked for<br />
forty-five minutes and nobody understood a word that he said, but we had<br />
fun filling out the forms and playing with the pencils on the bench there,<br />
and I filled out the massacre with the four part harmony, and wrote it<br />
down there, just like it was, and everything was fine and I put down the<br />
pencil, and I turned over the piece of paper, and there, there on the<br />
other side, in the middle of the other side, away from everything else on<br />
the other side, in parentheses, capital letters, quotated, read the<br />
following words:</p>

<p>("KID, HAVE YOU REHABILITATED YOURSELF?")</p>

<p>I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to<br />
ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm<br />
sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench<br />
'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women,<br />
kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug."  He looked at me and<br />
said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints<br />
off to Washington."</p>

<p>And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a<br />
study in black and white of my fingerprints.  And the only reason I'm<br />
singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar<br />
situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a<br />
situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into<br />
the shrink wherever you are ,just walk in say "Shrink, You can get<br />
anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.".  And walk out.  You know, if<br />
one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick and<br />
they won't take him.  And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,<br />
they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them.<br />
And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in<br />
singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's an<br />
organization.  And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said<br />
fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and<br />
walking out.  And friends they may thinks it's a movement.</p>

<p>And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, and<br />
all you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on the<br />
guitar.</p>

<p>With feeling.  So we'll wait for it to come around on the guitar, here and<br />
sing it when it does.  Here it comes.</p>

<p>You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant<br />
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant<br />
Walk right in it's around the back<br />
Just a half a mile from the railroad track<br />
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant</p>

<p>That was horrible.  If you want to end war and stuff you got to sing loud.<br />
I've been singing this song now for twenty five minutes. I could sing it<br />
for another twenty five minutes.  I'm not proud... or tired.</p>

<p>So we'll wait till it comes around again, and this time with four part<br />
harmony and feeling.</p>

<p>We're just waitin' for it to come around is what we're doing.</p>

<p>All right now.</p>

<p>You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant<br />
Excepting Alice<br />
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant<br />
Walk right in it's around the back<br />
Just a half a mile from the railroad track<br />
You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant</p>

<p>Da da da da da da da dum<br />
At Alice's Restaurant</p>

<p>-Arlo Guthrie</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  9:31 PM by Luthe&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149815</link>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #26 from Steve Buchheit</title>
         <description>comment from Steve Buchheit on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#19 Scott Taylor, it's also why every couple of years they charge recruiters with violating the standards. </p>

<p>An Army recuiter come to my nephew's school two years ago (thank you federal recuitment requirements). He then wanted to become an Army Sniper. While I think the military could be a good place for him, I went overboard trying to convince him otherwise. He's about to graduate from high-school. Hopefully I can talk to him this Xmas and explain some things about the recruitment process so if he still has that idea (even though he hasn't talked about it) that he'll get what he wants and won't get shafted.</p>

<p>Yeah, kids that age will believe the uniform more than their own relations. So I can see these kids being sucked in with the talk of "no more war."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006  9:44 PM by Steve Buchheit&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149819</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 21:44:34 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #27 from Kristin B</title>
         <description>comment from Kristin B on  5.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>long time lurker, delurking (and a little nervous about it--you people are so damn smart, you intimidate the hell outta me...) to share a song...</p>

<p>Could be construed as anti-war or anti-recruiting, I like to think of it as a little of both. </p>

<p>There was a decorated General with a heart of gold<br />
That likened him to all the stories he told,<br />
Of past battles won and lost<br />
And legends of old<br />
A seasoned veteran in his own time</p>

<p>On the battlefield he gained respectful fame<br />
With many medals of bravery and stripes to his name<br />
He grew a beard as soon as he could to cover the scars on his face<br />
And always urged his men on</p>

<p>But on the eve of great battle with the infantry in dream<br />
The Old General tossed in his sleep and wrestled with its meaning<br />
He awoke from the night to tell what he had seen<br />
And walked slowly out of his tent</p>

<p>All the men held tall with their chests in the air<br />
With courage in their blood and a fire in their stare<br />
It was a gray morning and they were all wondering how they would fare<br />
Till the old general told them to go home</p>

<p>He said: I have seen the others<br />
And I have discovered<br />
That this fight is not worth fighting<br />
And I have seen their mothers<br />
And I will no other to follow me where I'm going<br />
So</p>

<p>Take a shower, shine your shoes<br />
You got no time to lose<br />
You are young men, you must be living so<br />
Take a shower, shine your shoes<br />
You got no time to lose<br />
You are young men, you must be living<br />
Go now you are forgiven</p>

<p>But the men stood fast with their guns on their shoulders<br />
Not knowing what to do with the contradicting orders<br />
The General said he would do his own duty but he would extend it no further<br />
The men could go as they please</p>

<p>Not a man moved, their eyes gazed straight ahead,<br />
Till one by one they stepped back and not a word was said<br />
And the old general was left with his own words echoing in his head<br />
He then prepared to fight</p>

<p>He said: I have seen the others<br />
And I have discovered<br />
That this fight is not worth fighting<br />
No, and I see their mothers<br />
And I will no other<br />
to follow me where I'm going<br />
So<br />
Take a shower shine your shoes<br />
You got no time to lose<br />
You are young men you must be living<br />
So<br />
Take a shower shine your shoes<br />
You got no time to lose<br />
You are young men you must be living<br />
Go now you are forgiven.</p>

<p>-Dispatch</p>

<p>Also, my brother was stalked for quite a long time by an Army recruiter.  He (my brother) had once expressed interest, but after he eventually decided to go another way...the man was everywhere he went.  He was literally followed down the street by the man.  And I can cite several instances of people I know being allowed to "cheat" to get into the armed services (didn't pass your piss test?  You had the flu.  Come back in a month, etc.).</p>

<p>Sorry my first post was such a long one.</p>

<p>/lurking back to my happy place</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  5, 2006 11:41 PM by Kristin B&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149824</link>
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         <pubDate>Sun, 05 Nov 2006 23:41:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #28 from eric</title>
         <description>comment from eric on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='http://www.pogues.com/Releases/Lyrics/LPs/RumSodomy/Waltzing.html' rel="nofollow">When I was a young man I carried my pack</a><br />
And I lived the free life of a rover<br />
From the Murrays green basin to the dusty outback<br />
I waltzed my Matilda all over<br />
Then in nineteen fifteen my country said Son<br />
It's time to stop rambling 'cause there's work to be done<br />
So they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun<br />
And they sent me away to the war<br />
And the band played Waltzing Matilda<br />
As we sailed away from the quay<br />
And amidst all the tears and the shouts and the cheers<br />
We sailed off to Gallipoli</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 12:07 AM by eric&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149826</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 00:07:16 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #29 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to end war an' stuff you gotta sing loud...</p>

<p>"It's always the old who lead us to the war;<br />
Always the young who fall.<br />
Look at all we've won with the sabre and the gun,<br />
And tell me is it worth it all..."</p>

<p>The ghost of Phil Ochs haunts my dreams.</p>

<p>"I must have killed a million men<br />
And now they want me back again;<br />
But I ain't marchin' any more."</p>

<p>Nearly 3000 American men and women and God only knows how many Iraqis have died so that Saddam Hussein could be found guilty of crimes against humanity. </p>

<p>But as Jim has pointed out elsewhere -- Bush is breaking the military with this war. We won't be able to stay in Iraq without a draft, and I believe to the root of my soul that the American public will not stand for a draft. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 12:23 AM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149828</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 00:23:39 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #30 from Lois Fundis</title>
         <description>comment from Lois Fundis on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"War is over if you want it."</p>

<p>Damn, I wish that were true.</p>

<p>One of my nephews turns 21 next month. He dropped out of high school, got his GED and has been working a bunch of odd jobs. Kid has a lot of brains but not a whole lot of discipline.  About a year ago his mom, my sister, said that in normal times she thought joining the Army would be good for him -- I'd been thinking Marines actually; he's tall and blond and would look great in that dress uniform -- but not now. Not this war, and this administration. Not her son, her only child. Not my favorite nephew.</p>

<p>At least, I'm pretty sure Tommy's too smart and too politically aware, and not desperate enough for work, to fall for "the war is over". </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 12:29 AM by Lois Fundis&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149830</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149830</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 00:29:03 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #31 from Ruhgozler</title>
         <description>comment from Ruhgozler on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm over here in Iraq.  Believe me, they aren't sending any extra people home.  We have a guy here who is reenlisting in the Army.  His recruiter made the mistake of telling him that same crap about the war being over.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  2:13 AM by Ruhgozler&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149837</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149837</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 02:13:21 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #32 from Dena Shunra</title>
         <description>comment from Dena Shunra on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Velma@20 and anyone else with access to teens: parents can opt out of high school registries. That makes it (a little) harder for recruiters to get at them.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  2:36 AM by Dena Shunra&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149840</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149840</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 02:36:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #33 from Dave Bell</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Bell on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reviewing the current political and military scene in the USA, it seems to me that the country is missing a sense of unified purpose. To that end, I am preparing a merry little song, which ectols the benefits of National Unity, and which, incidentally, proposes a method by which we may all share in the trials and tribulations of the nation.</p>

<p>Although this is, in a manner of speaking, a first draft...</p>

<p></p>

<p>When they're playing <i>Taps</i> or <i>Last Post</i><br />
For another of the vast host<br />
Who have given all they have for Uncle Sam,<br />
They'll tell your kids the war is over,<br />
And Army Life is clover,<br />
And they'd better join before that door will slam.<br />
(But don't you worry.)</p>

<p>No more hoodies, no more bright cloth,<br />
No more skimpy tees or black Goth,<br />
No more heavy metal slogans on a sleeve.<br />
For if the mail that comes for you<br />
Drafts your friends and neighbors too<br />
There'll be nobody left behind to grieve.</p>

<p>And we will all go together when we go,<br />
When we're drafted off to fight in Mexico.<br />
A fashionable green suit<br />
Will be worn by every re-cruit<br />
Yes, we all will shop together when we go.</p>

<p>[...]</p>

<p></p>

<p><br />
(Do I need to tell anyone whose voice they should have been hearing?)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  3:23 AM by Dave Bell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149845</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 03:23:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #34 from inge</title>
         <description>comment from inge on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#16, CaseyL: IME teens may be quite rebellious when they sense that someone wants them to do (or not do) something, yet rarely analyze information they recieve versus the source and try to verify it independently. And why should they -- adults aren't too good at that, either. </p>

<p>And I've got a song, too: </p>

<p>Well as I was going along the road<br />
A-feeling fine and larky, <br />
A recruiting sergeant says to me<br />
"You'd look fine in khaki,<br />
Our king he is in need of men<br />
Come read his proclamation<br />
Live in Flanders now me boys<br />
Would make a fine vacation"</p>

<p>Well I turned around and I says to him,<br />
"Now tell me sergeant dearie,<br />
If I'd a pack stuck on me back,<br />
Do you think I'd look cheery?<br />
You'd make me drill and train<br />
Until I'd damn near lost me senses.<br />
It may be warm in Flanders,<br />
It's draughty in the trenches."</p>

<p>Well he turned around his wee bit cane<br />
And he looked most provokin'<br />
He twisted and twisted his wee moustache,<br />
Says he, "You must be jokin'.<br />
Them sandbags are so nice and warm,<br />
The wind it won't be blowin'.<br />
The cailins will take a shine to you,"<br />
Says I, "What if it's snowin'?"</p>

<p>"Come rain or hail or wind or shine,<br />
I'm not going out to Flanders.<br />
There's fightin' in Dublin to be done<br />
With your Captains and Commanders. <br />
Let Englishmen fight English wars,<br />
It's nearly time they started."<br />
So I tipped me hat to the sergeant bold<br />
And then I fondly parted.</p>

<p>(There are "-o"s at the end of every other line, but transcribing them looks stupid.)<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  3:59 AM by inge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149847</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149847</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 03:59:47 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #35 from lalouve</title>
         <description>comment from lalouve on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geordie he's a man, there's little doubt about it <br />
He's done all he can; wha' can do without it? <br />
Down there cam a blad, linkin' like my lordie; <br />
He wad drive a trade at the loom of Geordie. </p>

<p>(Cam'ye o'er frae France)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  5:00 AM by lalouve&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149852</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 05:00:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #36 from Pete Darby</title>
         <description>comment from Pete Darby on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce @ #2</p>

<p>"And a general came in, slapped a medal on me and said, 'Kid, your our boy'</p>

<p>"That's what he did."</p>

<p>Alice's Restaurant, Arlo Guthrie</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  5:40 AM by Pete Darby&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149853</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 05:40:13 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #37 from Pete Darby</title>
         <description>comment from Pete Darby on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grr, serves me right for posting before finishing the htread...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  5:43 AM by Pete Darby&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149854</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149854</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 05:43:23 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #38 from Eve</title>
         <description>comment from Eve on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce, I'm not sure if that's the point.  Even if a lie is the most pathetic and ridiculous thing you've ever heard ("I didn't break the window, a big boy did it and ran away"), it's still a lie, and it's still being told by someone who <i>wants</i> the listener to believe it.</p>

<p><br />
<b>Recruiting Drive</b></p>

<p>Under the willow the willow<br />
I heard the butcher-bird sing,<br />
<i>Come out you fine young fellow<br />
From under your mother's wing.<br />
I'll show you the magic garden<br />
That hangs in the beamy air,<br />
The way of the lynx and the angry Sphinx<br />
And the fun of the freezing fair.</i></p>

<p>Lie down lie down with my daughter<br />
Beneath the Arabian tree,<br />
Gaze on your face in the water<br />
Forget the scribbling sea.<br />
Your pillow the nine bright shiners<br />
Your bed the spilling sand,<br />
But the terrible toy of my lily-white boy<br />
Is the gun in his innocent hand.</p>

<p>You must take off your clothes for the doctor<br />
And stand as straight as a pin,<br />
His hand of stone on your white breast-bone<br />
Where the bullets all go in.<br />
They'll dress you in lawn and linen<br />
And fill you with Plymouth gin,<br />
O the devil may wear a rose in his hair<br />
I'll wear my fine doe-skin.</p>

<p>My mother weeps as I leave her<br />
But I tell her it won't be long,<br />
The murderers wail in Wandsworth Gaol<br />
But I shoot a more popular song.<br />
Down in the enemy country<br />
Under the enemy tree<br />
There lies a lad whose heart has gone bad<br />
Waiting for me, for me.</p>

<p>He says I have no culture<br />
And that when I've stormed the pass<br />
I shall fall on the farm with a smoking arm<br />
And ravish his bonny lass.<br />
Under the willow the willow<br />
Death spreads her dripping wings<br />
And caught in the snare of the bleeding air<br />
The butcher-bird sings, sings, sings. </p>

<p>- Charles Causley</p>

<p>Preliminary research while waiting for the kettle to boil suggests that the above can be sang to the tune of <i>The Mexican Hat Dance</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  6:06 AM by Eve&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #39 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The paths of glory lead but to the grave."<br />
-- Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  7:27 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:27:24 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #40 from Dave Luckett sees comment spam</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Luckett sees comment spam on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, they do. So does every path.</p>

<p>"To every man upon the earth, death cometh, soon or late,<br />
And how can man die better than facing fearful odds<br />
For the ashes of his fathers, and the temples of his gods?"</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  7:45 AM by Dave Luckett sees comment spam&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149863</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:45:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #41 from Dave Luckett</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Luckett on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No he doesn't. Dave has to remember to change his name back after doing that, and that it doesn't change until the next actual post.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  7:50 AM by Dave Luckett&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149864</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 07:50:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #42 from Rebecca Price</title>
         <description>comment from Rebecca Price on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood<br />
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,<br />
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud<br />
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues -<br />
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest<br />
To children ardent for some desperate glory,<br />
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est<br />
Pro patria mori.*"</p>

<p>-Wilfred Owen, 1893-1918</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  8:37 AM by Rebecca Price&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149868</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 08:37:56 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #43 from Jo Walton</title>
         <description>comment from Jo Walton on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a problem with how easily "Don't fight in unjust wars where they lie to you" seems to slide over into total pacifism where any fighting for any reason is inherently a bad thing.</p>

<p>Because sometimes you do have to go<br />
And sometimes you're needed to fight<br />
You have won when you standing up tall with a gun<br />
Is what keeps off that knock in the night.</p>

<p>Never fight for the fast easy lie,<br />
But be ready to fight when you must<br />
If you want to be free and protect liberty<br />
You will fight for a cause that is just.</p>

<p>What you want -- what we all want -- is peace<br />
If you won't fight you won't always get it.<br />
Reject stupid wars that are fought for no cause...<br />
But fight when you must, or regret it!<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  9:10 AM by Jo Walton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149872</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:10:33 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #44 from Earl Cooley III</title>
         <description>comment from Earl Cooley III on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.warprayer.org/" rel="nofollow">The War Prayer</a></p>

<p><a href="http://www.mudcat.org/@displaysong.cfm?SongID=4180" rel="nofollow">Napalm Sticks To Kids</a></p>

<p>I've got to stop reading stufz on the internets in the middle of the night about war and genocide and torture. It's after 8am and I didn't get any sleep at all last night.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  9:11 AM by Earl Cooley III&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:11:35 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #45 from lalouve</title>
         <description>comment from lalouve on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I have a problem with how easily "Don't fight in unjust wars where they lie to you" seems to slide over into total pacifism where any fighting for any reason is inherently a bad thing.</i></p>

<p>Maybe it does, for some people. I decided a long time ago that killing is indefensible, and that does not make me a person who just 'slid easily' into a position of which you disapprove. It makes me a person who holds an opinion which differs from yours. Please note that this is not an easy position, morally or socially, at all.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  9:27 AM by lalouve&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149875</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:27:27 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #46 from Jo Walton</title>
         <description>comment from Jo Walton on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lalouve, sorry I didn't mean your position did that, nor certainly that it was easy for you or others to hold to it; I meant that this thread seemed to be sliding that way.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  9:39 AM by Jo Walton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149877</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 09:39:09 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #47 from Suzanne M</title>
         <description>comment from Suzanne M on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>My true love, he is handsome and comely for to see,<br />
and by a sad misfortune a soldier now is he.<br />
I wish the man that listed him might prosper night nor day<br />
and I wish that, and I wish that the Hollanders<br />
might sink him in the sea.</i></p>

<p><i>Oh, may he never prosper and may he never thrive,<br />
nor anything he turns his hand as long as he's alive.<br />
May the very ground he treads upon the grass refuse to grow,<br />
for he's been the, for he's been the only cause of<br />
my sorrow, grief and woe.</i></p>

<p>As the girlfriend of a soldier who will find out in a week whether his stop-loss orders have come through (which will keep him in the army for approximately 15 extra months, 12 of them in Afghanistan), that one seemed appropriate. I am sick with fury.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 10:01 AM by Suzanne M&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:01:24 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #48 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a thing to wake up to!</p>

<p>Jo, were there any 20th-century wars that could not have been greatly reduced, if not prevented entirely, by thoughtful policy-making?  The truth of the matter, I've decided, is we don't resolve our conflicts until there's someone ready to go to war.  Sometimes we even start new conflicts.  Then our we lie to ourselves and say war was unavoidable.  And if we don't start resolving conflicts before the wars start, now, we are going to be utterly miserable, planetwide.  It's too easy to mobilize now, the weapons have gotten too good, we are too dependent on a widespread interdependent technical infrastructure, and will be for at least a century, probably two centuries.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 10:11 AM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149880</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:11:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #49 from lalouve</title>
         <description>comment from lalouve on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jo, no offense taken. I just get so tired of having to defend my pacifism - especially since I am a pacifist by conviction and not inclination (I tend to do the 'the good book says things about killing but it's vague on kneecaps').</p>

<p>#48 - I think the Versailles treaty was the right time to prevent WWII. Conflicts always start much earlier than people think.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 10:34 AM by lalouve&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149883</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:34:17 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #50 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The right time to prevent WWII was sometime around 1870, but never mind that.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 10:39 AM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149886</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:39:25 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #51 from Vicki</title>
         <description>comment from Vicki on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"And it's 1, 2, 3, what are we fighting for?<br />
And it's 5, 6, 7, open up the Pearly Gates.<br />
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,<br />
Next stop is Vietnam."</p>

<p>[Country Joe and the Fish.]</p>

<p>That's part of it, I think: know what you're fighting for.</p>

<p>The moral to one of James Thurber's "Fables for Our Time" is "All men should strive to learn, before they die, what they are running from, and to, and why."</p>

<p>Also, "No pasar&aacute;n!" But there needs to be a better reason than what Simonides wrote for Leonidas's three hundred.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 10:52 AM by Vicki&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149889</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 10:52:41 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #52 from lalouve</title>
         <description>comment from lalouve on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, James, let me refine the comment - I think Versailles was the last chance to prevent WWII. There were numerous missed opportunities before - as there always are.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 11:08 AM by lalouve&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149891</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:08:50 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #53 from Clark E Myers</title>
         <description>comment from Clark E Myers on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>various: <i>"Don't fight in unjust wars where they lie to you"</i></p>

<p>Thoreau took one path; others took another path:<br />
<i>For Americans of the generation who fought the Mexican-American War, the "San Patricios" were the vilest, most despicable of traitors and cowards. For Mexicans of that same generation, the San Patricios were heroes who selflessly came to the aid of fellow Catholics in great need.</i> Wikipedia</p>

<p>Green Grow the Lilacs/Laurel</p>

<p>And the American trainers in Vietnam today train the (N)VA.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 11:34 AM by Clark E Myers&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:34:15 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #54 from JESR</title>
         <description>comment from JESR on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dena Shunra @ #32:</p>

<p>You can opt-out of the school releasing your student's name, but recruiters can re-acquire your teenagers' names from other sources; we started getting calls for my daughter after her name was published in an article about National Merit  Scholars.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 11:41 AM by JESR&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:41:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #55 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People killing other people is always a bad thing.  No matter what.</p>

<p>But sometimes it's better than the alternative.  Sometimes you cannot completely prevent the killing of humans by humans, but only reduce it by killing some humans before they kill a vast number of others.  It's bad when that happens (see my first paragraph), but sometimes harm reduction is the best you can do.  </p>

<p>Better, as more than one person has said, to prevent it whenever possible.  But if the time comes to you, you have to fight.  My boyfriend stuck a knife in someone recently.  That's bad, but as the guy had his hands around my boyfriend's throat and had stated his intention to kill, entirely justified, and I'm very glad my bf had the knife at the time.</p>

<p>Btw, all parties are agreed that it was a good thing that the guy a) let go at once and b) wasn't seriously injured.  A better result than most wars.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 11:46 AM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 11:46:36 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #56 from Bruce Adelsohn</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Adelsohn on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More Phil Ochs:</p>

<p><a href="http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/is-there-anybody-here.html" rel="nofollow">Is There Anybody Here</a></p>

<p>Is there anybody here who'd like to change his clothes into a uniform,<br />
Is there anybody here who thinks they're only serving in a raging storm.<br />
Is there anybody here with glory in their eyes, loyal to the end, whose duty is to die,<br />
I want to see him, I want to wish him luck,<br />
I wanna shake his hand, wanna call his name,<br />
Pin a medal on the man.</p>

<p>Is there anybody here who'd like to wrap a flag around an early grave,<br />
Is there anybody here who thinks they're standing taller on a battle wave.<br />
Is there anybody here like to do his part, soldier to the world and a hero to his heart,<br />
I want to see him, I want to wish him luck,<br />
I wanna shake his hand, wanna call his name,<br />
Pin a medal on the man.</p>

<p>Is there anybody here proud of the parade, who'd like to give a cheer and show they're not afraid.<br />
I'd like like to ask him what he's trying to defend,<br />
I'd like to ask him what he thinks he's gonna win.<br />
Is there anybody here who thinks that following orders takes away the blame<br />
Is there anybody here who'd wouldn't mind a murder by another name<br />
Is there anybody here whose pride is on the line, with the honor of the brave and the courage of the blind,<br />
I want to see him, I want to wish him luck,<br />
I wanna shake his hand, gonna call his name,<br />
Pin a medal on the man.<br />
Medal on the man.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 12:04 PM by Bruce Adelsohn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149904</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:04:04 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #57 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>'Good morning; good morning' the General said,<br />
When we met him last week on our way to the line.<br />
Now the soldiers he smiled at are most of 'em dead,<br />
And we're cursing his staff for incompetent swine.<br />
'He's a cheery old card,' grunted Harry to Jack<br />
As they slogged up to Arras with rifle and pack...<br />
But he did for them both with his plan of attack.</i></p>

<p>Siegfried Sassoon<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006 12:45 PM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149908</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 12:45:11 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #58 from Adrian</title>
         <description>comment from Adrian on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few days ago, I woke up with that Phil Ochs song ("Is There Anybody Here") on the radio.  I'm familiar with some of his work, but hadn't heard that song before.  I recognized it as Ochs' almost at once, even half asleep.  It was shocking in its own right, as a powerful song.  It was even more shocking to realize that I was concerned about the radio station -- would they get in trouble for insulting the troops, or didn't anyone care at this hour?  When did I start thinking that way?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  1:54 PM by Adrian&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149919</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:54:31 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #59 from inge</title>
         <description>comment from inge on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#46, Jo Walton: It seems to me that the reason many, if not most of the postings here seem to "to slide over into total pacifism" is that "they" (the folk songs' recruiting seargeants, at least) <i>always</i> lie to you, have always lied to you and will always lie to you. At best it's an archetype, at worst it's true (or vice versa). <br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  4:15 PM by inge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149940</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 16:15:57 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #60 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the Republicans do not lose the House; i.e. if they retain control of the US government, Bush will trumpet from the rooftops that he has received a mandate to do whatever the fuck he wants to do to the country -- this one, Iraq, Iran, <i>any</i> country -- until we finally get rid of him in 2008. And he will do his best to do it.</p>

<p>Tomorrow is the day. Organize, vote, pray if the Spirit moves you, work the phones, work the polls... There's no guarantee that things will improve if we win, but it's dead sure solid guarandamnteed that they won't, if we lose. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  6:54 PM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149988</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149988</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 18:54:46 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #61 from Randolph Fritz</title>
         <description>comment from Randolph Fritz on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there were, up until the Nazi takeover of Germany and the Japanese invasion of China, many relatively easy opportunities to prevent World War II.  Even after, there were opportunities to reduce the violence--there was no reason to permit Germany to re-arm, for instance.  For those of you who object that these would have been costly and destructive I say, more costly and destructive than World War II?</p>

<p>What we lacked--and are still only developing--is the will to prevent wars, to resolve conflicts before all the choices involve violence.  But "I do know with what weapons World War III will be fought with, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."  I think this is pacificism, too; not the opposition to all violence, but the recognition that war has turned into an abysmal failure for any reasonable human goal, and was never as much of a success as it was in fiction and propaganda.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  7:45 PM by Randolph Fritz&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149999</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#149999</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 19:45:59 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #62 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on  6.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergeant William Bailey was a man of high renown,<br />
Tooral looral looral looral loo,<br />
In search of gallant young recruits he used to scour the town,<br />
Tooral looral looral looral loo,<br />
His face was full and swarthy, of medals he had forty,<br />
And ribbons on his chest red white and blue,<br />
It was he that looked the hero as he made the people stare O,<br />
As he stood on Dunphy's corner tooral loo.</p>

<p>But alas for human greatness every dog he has his day,<br />
Tooral looral looral looral loo,<br />
And Sergeant William Bailey he is getting old and grey,<br />
Tooral looral looral looral loo,<br />
No longer youths are willing to take his dirty shilling,<br />
And things for him are looking mighty blue,<br />
In spite of fife and drumming no more recruits are coming,<br />
For Sergeant William Bailey tooral loo.</p>

<p>Sergeant William Bailey what a wretched sight to see,<br />
Tooral looral looral looral loo,<br />
His back that once was firm and straight is almost bent in three,<br />
Tooral looral looral looral loo,<br />
Some rebel youths with placards have called his army blackguards,<br />
And told the Irish youth just what to do,<br />
He has lost his occupation let's sing in jubilation,<br />
For Sergeant William Bailey tooral loo.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  6, 2006  7:56 PM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#150000</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#150000</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 06 Nov 2006 19:56:08 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #63 from Meg Thornton</title>
         <description>comment from Meg Thornton on  7.Nov.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re #28</p>

<p>Just for the sake of clarification (since I own the Pogues album that the tune's taken from): the actual song "And The Band Played Waltzing Matilda" was written by another Eric - Eric Bogle, an emigrant to Australia.</p>

<p>Oh, and my token bit of anti-war (well, anti-bad-leadership) songsmanship - this one has words by one William Schwenk Gilbert, and a tune by Sir Arthur Sullivan.</p>

<p>In enterprise of martial kind, <br />
When there was any fighting, <br />
He led his regiment from behind <br />
(He found it less exciting). <br />
But when away his regiment ran, <br />
His place was at the fore, O- <br />
That celebrated, cultivated, underrated nobleman, <br />
The Duke of Plaza-Toro! </p>

<p>In the first and foremost flight, ha, ha! <br />
You always found that knight, ha, ha! <br />
That celebrated, cultivated, underrated nobleman, <br />
The Duke of Plaza-Toro! </p>

<p>When, to evade Destruction's hand, <br />
To hide they all proceeded, <br />
No soldier in that gallant band <br />
Hid half as well as he did. <br />
He lay concealed throughout the war, <br />
And so preserved his gore, O! <br />
That unaffected, undetected, well-connected Warrior, <br />
The Duke of Plaza-Toro! </p>

<p>In every doughty deed, ha, ha! <br />
He always took the lead, ha, ha! <br />
That unaffected, undetected, well-connected Warrior, <br />
The Duke of Plaza-Toro! </p>

<p>When told that they would all be shot <br />
Unless they left the service, <br />
Our hero hesitated not, <br />
So marvellous his nerve is. <br />
He sent his resignation in, <br />
The first of all his corps, O! <br />
That very knowing, overflowing, easy-going paladin, <br />
The Duke of Plaza-Toro! </p>

<p>To men of grosser clay, ha, ha! <br />
He always showed the way, ha, ha! <br />
That very knowing, overflowing, easy-going paladin, <br />
The Duke of Plaza-Toro!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted November  7, 2006  8:40 AM by Meg Thornton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#150081</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 07 Nov 2006 08:40:51 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #64 from ptrt</title>
         <description>comment from ptrt on  6.Dec.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hy jm Mcdnld yr stpd fg th wr sn't vr yt th rsn w r vr thr s t hlp. Y dn't hv t fght bt fr th sldrs vr thr fght ng thy wnt t hlp s y shld sht yr fckng mth y stpd cnt nlss yr th n vr thr fghtng jst sht yr fckng mth! Jst by th wy y tlk cn lrdy tll tht yr prnts r ttl fgs nd s r y hp y gt sht. S jst g nd d y dmbss mthr fckr!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted December  6, 2006 11:19 AM by ptrt&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157241</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157241</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:19:26 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #65 from Sarah S sees a disemvowelling waiting to happen</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah S sees a disemvowelling waiting to happen on  6.Dec.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted December  6, 2006 11:26 AM by Sarah S sees a disemvowelling waiting to happen&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157242</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157242</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:26:52 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #66 from TexAnne</title>
         <description>comment from TexAnne on  6.Dec.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I clutch my pearls in shock. In my day, middle schoolers were clever enough not to sign their names when they wrote naughty words on the bathroom wall.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted December  6, 2006 11:43 AM by TexAnne&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157247</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157247</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:43:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #67 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  6.Dec.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He can't get the school district's URL right either.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted December  6, 2006 11:54 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157251</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157251</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 11:54:06 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #68 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on  6.Dec.06</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's so good to hear from the Republican core.  </p>

<p>Bush supporters these days seem to be limited to folks with serious reading comprehension problems.  Oh, yes, and the war profiteers.</p>

<p>But tell me, "Patriot," how did you come to find this post?  What strange pathways did you follow to reach a place where you could put your intellectual gifts on display?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted December  6, 2006 12:13 PM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157255</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#157255</guid>
         <pubDate>Wed, 06 Dec 2006 12:13:59 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #69 from James D. Macdonald</title>
         <description>comment from James D. Macdonald on 20.Feb.07</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just in case "Simple Soldier" (#68 in <a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006716.html#166154" rel="nofollow">this thread</a>) drops by:</p>

<p>Tell me:  Is an E5 over six with three dependents still eligible for Food Stamps?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted February 20, 2007  9:57 AM by James D. Macdonald&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#172647</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#172647</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:57:28 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>The War is Over! -- comment #70 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on 20.Feb.07</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James Macdonald: I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's comment that 'if this is how Queen Victoria treats her prisoners she doesn't deserve any'.* Soldiers do a difficult and dangerous job, if their reward is the kind of neglect that's been reported over and over, their putative masters deserve the severest condemnation.</p>

<p>* I think that's more relevant, too, than Kipling's 'It's Tommy this, and Tommy that'.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted February 20, 2007 10:32 AM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#172648</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/008146.html#172648</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:32:05 -0500</pubDate>
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