May our grandchildren remember these dark times with fireworks and hot chocolate, when the malice has moved on to other discourse and all who have been hurt are long gone.

(The fireworks were magnificent this year. I live near a large field, and everyone brought rockets and fountains. Even as a Catholic in sectarian Scotland, I don't find a sting in Guy Fawkes.)

Posted November 5, 2006 2:56 PM by abi

Jeez, what a twerp.

Posted November 5, 2006 3:02 PM by Mal

Charmed, I'm sure.

Posted November 5, 2006 3:05 PM by abi

In time, September the eleventh night,
The kids will watch the rockets fill the air.
They'll OOH and AAH in multicoloured light
With bioluminescents in their hair.
Our tragedies will be reduced to rhyme
Some half-remembered, mistranslated song
And jumping dances, meaningless through time,
Details missing, names and places wrong.
Though self-renewing terror haunts our lives.
Our children, staring upward at the sky,
Remind us that their innocence survives
While we, and they, and generations die.
Resist with decency when terror stalks
It's stronger than Bin Laden, Mao or Fawkes.

Posted November 5, 2006 3:59 PM by abi

Mal@#2: I'm going to be charitable and assume that you were referring to Guy Fawkes in your drive-by comment up there.

Otherwise, I'd have to put myself to the unwanted trouble of thoroughly despising somebody whom I don't know from Adam.

Posted November 5, 2006 4:36 PM by Debra Doyle

Can anyone here explain "penny for the Guy"? I understand what it really is -- an excuse for kids to get money from adults -- but I don't understand how it came to mean that. Was the idea to use the money to buy bread to choke Fawkes?

Posted November 5, 2006 5:06 PM by Rachel

In British date format, today is 5/11. Which might be good way to remember it, since the Gunpowder Plot was the greatest terrorist spectacular ever devised.

Posted November 5, 2006 5:32 PM by Ken MacLeod

Rachel at 6, the pennies were gathered to buy fireworks, as far as I know. I don't recall hearing of a treat or drinking tradition associated with dragging the Guy about from place to place (unlike Plough Monday, carolling, and various other door-to-door customs).
The custom, I believe, also gave UK English the word 'guy' meaning someone odd-looking or ridiculous, like the stuffed effigies, and the verb 'to guy', to mock someone. But I'll go and check that in the OED.

Posted November 5, 2006 6:00 PM by Barbara Gordon

A penny loaf, the Pope is fed
A farthing for some cheese 'll
Burn his body from his head,
Pope! goes the weasel.

Posted November 5, 2006 6:06 PM by Kip W

I don't know what that #2 comment was about, abi. Just ignore it. Must be a glitch in the system. Can't be anything else.

Posted November 5, 2006 6:14 PM by Serge

I always think of V for Vendetta when I think of this day (not that it's been that long; the movie only came out this year). I particularly like the part where thousands of people, all wearing Guy Fawkes masks, converge on the halls of government.

Posted November 5, 2006 7:24 PM by Xopher

This mnemonic never helped me a whole lot. You could put any number from first to tenth (except second and seventh) in there and fit the meter just as well.

But to add something useful to the conversation -- I just found out that Guy Fawkes wasn't even the mastermind behind the plot -- he was just the one they caught first. Which I guess is a longer way of saying what abi said about details missing.

Posted November 5, 2006 8:02 PM by Lisa Goldstein

With inflation, it's more like 20 or 50p for the Guy these days. Or maybe I'm being stingy.

Posted November 5, 2006 8:20 PM by NelC

#6, Rachel, there's a long tradition of young people singing and begging their way through the neighborhood in the UK--traditionally, it was done at Christmas (Here we come a wassailing is a song based on this, as is We wish you a merry Christmas, and it took place in other contexts as well--the start of plowing, Shrove Tuesday eve, and other events where it could plausibly be tried and gotten away with. In the case of November 5th, people who didn't donate cheerfully and generously could also usefully be accused of being Catholics, and potential traitors, and subjected to both legal and extralegal harrassment--at least in the early days of the custom.
Yes, life with a state religion is Not Fun if it's not yours, in case anyone here was in doubt of that. If someone wants to, it's very easy to make you look as if you're a dissenter, even if you're not--they just keep adding new shibboleths; you're bound to miss one sooner or later.

Posted November 5, 2006 9:08 PM by fidelio

Xopher, I like that scene as well, especially how they show all the "anti-government" people who had died throughout the movie taking off their masks.

Posted November 5, 2006 9:35 PM by Steve Buchheit

I stole your post with full credit and a link back here. Thanks for the great read and I've added you to my blogroll. Great site, thanks for your hard work.

Posted November 5, 2006 9:41 PM by HopeSpringsATurtle

Bad linky back to me try this: http://deepconfusion.blogspot.com/

Posted November 5, 2006 9:43 PM by HopeSpringsATurtle

I just got this comment over at my place, thought I'd share (eek!):

Rev. Don Spitz said...

Eric Rudolph is not a terrorist, but an anti-terrorist fighter. Those who have killed babykilling abortionists have done so to protect the innocent. People use force everyday to protect the innocent and no one has a problem with it, except when it comes to protecting unborn human beings, then they go ballistic. It's very simple, the unborn deserve the same protection as the born. Born people are protected with force quite often. Force that you would be glad if it was to protect your children against a murderer. Force that you yourself might use to protect your own children from being murdered. The unborn deserve the same protection.
SAY THIS PRAYER: Dear Jesus, I am a sinner and am headed to eternal hell because of my sins. I believe you died on the cross to take away my sins and to take me to heaven. Jesus, I ask you now to come into my heart and take away my sins and give me eternal life. http://www.ArmyofGod.com

8:33 PM

(P.S. maybe I shouldn't 'steal' any more posts...)

Posted November 6, 2006 12:09 AM by HopeSpringsATurtle

re #6 and #14

Also, kiddies would, back when you could still do things which were fun, make straw-and-rags Guys to throw on the bonfires, and show them off to their neighbours, who would give them pennies (or even *more* than pennies, if the Guy were impressive enough, or cents after decimal currency was adopted) to buy penny bangers with. I mean, what's a bonfire without penny bangers? (A: Modern and Dull. Curse these nanny-state governments.)

I'm not sure it was a specifically English thing by the time it was imported to Australia - it seems to me the Irish Catholics have the most fun on cracker night. That backs up the more jaunty and impressed reading of "remember, remember ..."

Penny Bangers are also splendid fun when applied to letterboxes. That is all.

Posted November 6, 2006 1:18 AM by Vian

I've been deeply envious of the fun with things-that-go-bang being gleefully described by friends from the UK.

Posted November 6, 2006 2:12 AM by xeger

Perhaps today is a good day to note Attila The Stockbroker's musings from the evening when the UK House of Commons okayed the war in Iraq, sitting at a pub where he took his pint, apparently, at Guy Fawkes's Table? The song is downloadable (but watch out, he does not mince words, including four-letter ones and the lyrics are online, as well (just search for Fawkes. He's in there).

Here's my favorite verse (directed at the UK MPs who voted to join us in that we-all-know-it-was-wrong-now war:

"I'm sitting at Guy Fawkes' table
As Bush and his muppet connive
And I'm filled with unspeakable anger
And I'm thinking of 1605
One message, Dishonourable Members
Who endorsed an illegal attack -
No, I don't want to bomb you like Guy did
But I'd love to send you to Iraq."

But listen to the performance if you're not too squeamish. (And you might as well hear his poetic license rap too, while you're at it. If you don't mind live poetry, raw and bleeding, delivered in rap style.)

Posted November 6, 2006 2:16 AM by Dena Shunra

I responded (see comment #18) to Rev. Spitz:

SwimDeep AKA HopeSpringsATurtle said...

Mr Spitz,
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. You may want to consider that Eric Rudolph is a CONVICTED MURDERER and is serving 4 consecutive life sentences in prison. I respect your right to believe what you like but what you and your people must realize is that this is the United States of America and it remains, to some extent, a free country. If you don't like that fact, you are free to leave.

Posted November 6, 2006 3:58 AM by HopeSpringsATurtle

Can anyone here explain "penny for the Guy"?

If you'll explain "Trick or Treat".

Posted November 6, 2006 4:00 AM by chris y

And finally this was the next comment at my site:

"Anonymous said...

I usually read your blog, and very rarely comment. I was floored by the first comment left at your site, and wonder if I would have had the strength to restrain myself (as you did) from saying something inflammatory to Rev. Spitz.

If Rev. Spitz is as familiar with the scriptures as his name states, then I am sure he is familiar with the Ten Commandments. I am reminded of one that states, "Thou shalt not kill." Jesus, to my knowledge, was a peaceful man. Abortions were actually being performed during His life. They were typically performed when the physician believed that the mother's life was in danger, as already existing life (that is, someone who had already breathed ambient air) was deemed more important than the fetus, which had not. This forward thinking occurred thousands of years ago. Correct me if I am wrong, Reverand, but I can't recall any scriptures documenting any violence directed towards those physicians in the scriptures.

You, Sir, should pray for YOUR forgiveness, as you are not a martyr, and were not 'called' to do God's work. I am not sure if you have been involved with any abortion clinic bombings, but the fact that you support it is evil. You, 'Reverand', are no Christian, and disgrace Christianity by the fact that you claim to be a part of it. Shame on you and your sham of religion."

Thought you might wanna know what your post ultimately generated.
Peace, Swim

Posted November 6, 2006 4:02 AM by HopeSpringsATurtle

Vian #19:

So "the Guy" in the phrase refers to the mini-effigies, rather than Mr. Fawkes himself? As in "[give me] a penny for the guy [that I made and am showing you]"? Almost like "guy" here shouldn't be capitalized...

If you'll explain "Trick or Treat".

I think I understand where that comes from. Halloween is a time when the normal order of things goes topsy-turvy, kind of hearkening back to Saturnalia. Ghosts walk the earth, men can dress as women, little kids get to have some power over adults. Most directly, the phrase literally means "give us some good stuff or we'll pull a trick on you", i.e., toilet-papering your house or dumping a bag of flaming dog poo on your front steps. Where the custom originated, I don't know.

Posted November 6, 2006 6:14 AM by Rachel

It's very simple, the unborn deserve the same protection as the born.

Reminds me of a comment that Stephen King once made on CSPAN about people like that, and how their interest for life ends at birth.

Posted November 6, 2006 7:25 AM by Serge

My parents seem like the Cleavers, so it's hard for me to imagine the "crazy young kids" they must have been to name me after Guy Fawkes. (That's my actual first and middle name up there, and my last is something like 'Fawkes' with a single phoneme change.)

The family legend is that we trace our line back to the Guy, but the older I get the less I believe it. I looked it up as part of a history project in high school once and I think I discovered that he'd only had daughters.

It was a good way to get me interested in history, though.

Posted November 6, 2006 7:38 AM by Dan Guy

#18: Eric Rudolph is not a terrorist, but an anti-terrorist fighter.

I suppose that explains why he bombed the Olympic Park and a couple of gay clubs, doesn't it? Those sure are hotbeds of terrorism.

And that explains why he left secondary devices to cripple or kill firefighters and EMTs: when you line up the terrorists of this world firefighters and EMTs are at the head of the line.

The Army of God is itself a terrorist organization. If they aren't on the no-fly lists ... it's because the no-fly lists are security theatre.

#26 BTW: my interest in preserving and improving life does not end at birth.

Posted November 6, 2006 7:51 AM by James D. Macdonald

Hmm. Despite being an atheist Catholic, and despite not being a fan of the Catholic Church, I am distinctly uneasy aroud this day here in London. Make of this what you will.

Posted November 6, 2006 8:29 AM by Anna Feruglio Dal Dan

I am looking forward to the time when the only thing anyone who isn't a twentieth century specialist remembers about Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels concerns their peculiar testicles.

Posted November 6, 2006 8:38 AM by Jo Walton

What about Il Duce's, Jo?

Posted November 6, 2006 8:44 AM by Serge

#30, Jo, how long do you think that would be? Jews tend to have long historical memories.

Posted November 6, 2006 9:37 AM by Nancy Lebovitz

Nancy Lebovitz... Last year my wife watched Judgment in Nuremberg. There is a scene that shows actual films of what happened in death camps. I don't think my wife, who's a bit younger than me and grew up in the USA, had ever seen those films on TV. She was, to say the least, horrified. Films have an edge, a way to make people remember things, that being told about them just doesn't carry. Of course, how likely is it that American TV will show something that'd truly upset people's digestion?

Posted November 6, 2006 9:46 AM by Serge

*sings, to the tune of Colonel Bogey's March*
Hitler has only got one ball!
Goering has two, but very small!
Himmler is somewhat sim'ler,
And poor old Goebbels has no balls at all!

Posted November 6, 2006 10:17 AM by Carrie S.

A hilarious series of statements, and strange, because the first appears to be the absolute unvarnished truth. Der Feuhrer did have only one descended testicle. But how did British troops in the Western Desert know that in 1941?

Posted November 6, 2006 10:36 AM by Dave Luckett sees comment spam

Dammit, I keep erasing that handle and it keeps coming back again.

Posted November 6, 2006 10:38 AM by Dave Luckett

Where the custom originated, I don't know.

In ancient times Samhain was the night when the veil between the worlds was thin, when the mighty dead walked the Earth. (Actually it still is, but not as many people believe it.) The outlandish costumes (especially including cross-dressing) meant it was hard to be certain who was a living person and who was a ghost.

I believe (and I can't remember where I got this) that the custom of demanding treats grew from the custom of leaving offerings for the ancestors (and the Fair Folk, who also live in the Otherworld). So if someone demanded goodies, you provided them, because otherwise...

Where the actual ritual utterance of 'Trick or Treat!" came from I don't know. It's obviously a symbolic threat, but very few of the actual trick or treaters mean anything by it. It's just what you say (at the top of your little voice) when someone opens the door on that night.

Btw, the ancient Irish made jack o'lanterns, and at considerably more effort, because pumpkins are American in origin and were unknown in premodern Europe. They had to use turnips, which are much more difficult to carve. With what I've learned here about root vegetables (better harvested AFTER the first frost, which began Samhain in ancient times), they're far more appropriate symbols than any pumpkin.

Samhain is the New Year in Celtic terms (and in Wiccan liturgy). It begins the first of the two seasons, Winter (the dark half of the year) and Summer (the light half). To the ancient Celts, all things began in the dark: the night began the day-cycle, too. Or as I once wrote:

A seed, an egg, a coccoon, a womb;
A shroud, a grave, a coffin, a tomb.

Posted November 6, 2006 11:23 AM by Xopher

Speaking about the origins of some customs...

I read somewhere that the Xmas tree with the hanging ornaments originated with Odin hanging himself from a tree. I think I came across that here one year ago. Did my memory play tricks on me again?

Posted November 6, 2006 11:31 AM by Serge

Hitler has only got one ball!

The variant we used to sing in (Jewish) summer camp was only slightly different:

Hitler had only one big ball
Goering had two but they were small
Himmler had something similar
But Goebbels had no balls at all

Posted November 6, 2006 12:50 PM by Jon Sobel

Haven't seen any 'guys' at all this year. Most of the ones I saw last year were large teddy bears with clothes on, so my policy is only to give to the kids if they look like they made an effort to make their 'guy'. Here in the UK 'trick or treating' sometimes seems to have become distorted into outright vandalism and harrassment - apparently October 30th is 'mischief night' (is that another transatlantic import, or did we make that up ourselves, I wonder), when unruly kids throw eggs & flour around at houses and vehicles. Factor in kids letting-off fireworks in the street, (several phone-boxes were blown up last year apparently), and the whole Hallowe'en and Bonfire Night period can be a bit of a nightmare. Round our way it was mercifully quiet until Bonfire Night itself.

The British police uncovered an actual terrorist plot quite recently - but, perhaps because the plotters were not Muslim, there was virtually no media coverage - seriously, absolutely none:

TWO Pendle men have appeared before Pennine magistrates accused of having "a master plan" after what is believed to be a record haul of chemicals used in making home-made bombs was found in Colne.

Robert Cottage (49), of Talbot Street, Colne, and David Bolus Jackson (62), of Trent Road, Nelson, made separate appearances before the court charged with being in possession of an explosive substance for an unlawful purpose. The offences are under the Explosive Substances Act 1883.

Both men were remanded in custody to appear at Burnley Crown Court on October 23rd. Cottage was arrested at his home on Thursday, while retired dentist Jackson was arrested in the Lancaster area on Friday, the same day as he left a dental practice in Grange-over-Sands.

The 22 chemical components recovered by police are believed to be the largest haul ever found at a house in this country.

Cottage is an ex-BNP member who stood as a candidate in the Pendle Council elections in May.
Mrs Christiana Buchanan, who appeared for the prosecution in Jackson's case, alleged the pair had "some kind of masterplan".

She said a search of Jackson's home had uncovered rocket launchers, chemicals, BNP literature and a nuclear biological suit.

Police raided Cottage's Talbot Street home on Thursday of last week. The house was taped off while forensics officers searched the premises. Neighbours were told to stay in their homes for their own safety. Mr Cottage's car was also taken away for examination.

Officers also made a thorough examination of Jackson's Trent Road home and, again, officers were on duty outside the house. Forensics officers examined the property.
http://www.pendletoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=8&ArticleID=1806619

(emphasis added) The BNP are the British National Party, extreme right.

Googling the above url itself brings up absolutely nothing - even though linkage is slowly spreading. Googling an excerpt from the first paragraph gets around 150 results.

Apparently, "the police played it down" - see this thread on the medialens message board about responses from the BBC and from Channel 4 news about why they hadn't covered it.
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1161539984.html

Posted November 6, 2006 2:22 PM by milesawaygirl

It's very simple, the unborn deserve the same protection as the born.

And there is an infinite number of them. Plus, as they are never born, they can never die and just keep accumulating.

Posted November 6, 2006 4:31 PM by inge

milesawaygirl,

I did hear about the Pendle men; I suspect on the television version of BBC's "The World." If not there, then on NPR or on Air America Radio.

It would be odd if the BBC program designed for American audiences was the place I'd seen it, but the BBC in Britain didn't do the story.

Posted November 6, 2006 4:40 PM by Nancy C

#15: Rachael

Bang on. So to speak. "I've made this teriffic Guy, give me some money so I can blow up someone else's letterbox. Er, I mean, celebrate the survival of the Westminster system and of course, Gawd Save the King/Queen."

Posted November 6, 2006 5:55 PM by Vian

The version we had at school (the cadet band had it as one of it's tunes):

Hitler has only got one ball
Th other is in the Albert Hall
His mother, the dirty bugger,
cut it off when he was small

If it really was in the Albert Hall, then that's how the British Army knew about it. Somehow I don't think that's the answer.

For many years I'd had the impression that Guy Fawkes was a Spaniard, and thought that he was singled out for being a foreigner. It turns out he was from Yorkshire (although he certainly had links to Spain and had got his expertise in explosives in the Spanish army).

Hmm... the story has explosives, a foreign trained religious fanatic and torture of a suspected terrorist... could almost be from the newspaper.

Posted November 6, 2006 6:07 PM by Neil Willcox

Guy signed his first name "Guido." (He also escaped hanging, drawing, and quartering by leaping from the scaffold and breaking his neck.)

Posted November 6, 2006 6:30 PM by James D. Macdonald

Xopher said (#37):
I believe (and I can't remember where I got this) that the custom of demanding treats grew from the custom of leaving offerings for the ancestors (and the Fair Folk, who also live in the Otherworld). So if someone demanded goodies, you provided them, because otherwise...

Where the actual ritual utterance of 'Trick or Treat!" came from I don't know. It's obviously a symbolic threat, but very few of the actual trick or treaters mean anything by it. It's just what you say (at the top of your little voice) when someone opens the door on that night.

For what it's worth, the Wikipedia article on "trick-or-treating" suggests that it might have been a rather spontaneous development in the early 20th Century US; at least, there's no clear evidence for the custom in the US prior to then.

Curiously, the tradition in Scotland appears to have been giving treats to the kids only if they performed a joke, funny poem, or song first, with no threats, implied or otherwise, involved.

The "extortion" aspect reminds me of the pre-19th Century tradition of Christmas wassailing, which as I understand it meant gangs of young, mostly lower-class men visiting the houses of the rich and singing songs requesting drinks and food, or else.

Posted November 6, 2006 7:42 PM by Peter Erwin

Peter # 46: Curiously, the tradition in Scotland appears to have been giving treats to the kids only if they performed a joke, funny poem, or song first, with no threats, implied or otherwise, involved.

Now how did I know that at age 10 when I, good little Kentucky girl, went trick-or-treating dressed up as a Scottish lass and did a short Highland fling on each doorstep?

Posted November 6, 2006 8:08 PM by joann

Serge: Stanley Kramer used to tell us about the first public showing of Judgement at Nuremberg, which was at the Nuremberg Film Festival. He said "When the lights came up the audience was silent. And not the good kind of silent..."

Mind you, the used to show it as one of the 4:00 movies on KING TV. Of course that was before Belo bought the station.

Posted November 6, 2006 10:33 PM by Bruce E. Durocher II

October 30th is 'mischief night' (is that another transatlantic import, or did we make that up ourselves, I wonder)

'Mischeif Night' is indigenous, as far as I know - it appears in The Lore and Language of Schoolchildren, at any rate. It does seem to be limited to the North of England, though, so it's not all that well known even in the UK.

(As an aside, the "penny for the guy" thing may be later than people think. Mayhew (c1850) interviewed two adult beggers who exhibited a fairly elaborate guy but doesn't mention it as a widespread custom, or one practised by children. Not enough pennies to go round at that time, I guess.)

Posted November 7, 2006 6:05 AM by Sam Dodsworth

I love the movie v for vindeta! I had no idea who Guy fawkes was when I first saw the movie. That's how I ended up here. If anyone has any interesting information on Guy Fawkes or anyone else involved in the gunpowder treason could you please email me at papergirlphoto@yahoo.com. Thank you!

Posted November 16, 2006 2:53 PM by Megan