Having a listing on AboutUs.org is automated. They pull the info from the domain's whois listing and their website.

But the nice thing about it being on a wiki is that you can edit the entry...

Mmm, roast scammer.

Why that's easy to create. Hmmm, maybe PA will like this one at URL http://www.aboutus.org/PreditorsAndEditors.com

Sydra Techniques sounds like a villainous organization in a spy/conspiracy thriller.

totally unrelated to this post, but i couldn't figure out where else to put it.

i also couldn't find anything about making light's thoughts on the advertising that runs in the sidebars-- to whit, whether a person ought to mention the mccain 2008 ad that she keeps seeing in the sidebar. i don't rembember if you all are on the "we'll run all ads" platform or the "only ads that we like" platform.

SBD @ 3... Well, there is Hydra, the secret orignization that Captain America has foiled again and again. (How did the Hulk put it while mocking their rallying cry? It went something like "Cut one head and two will grow to take its place, both more stupid than the original.")

The bought ads here are accepted or declined.

The Google ads here are Whatever Comes Up.

As you can well guess, I'm sort of a writing newb but I stumbled onto http://community.livejournal.com/market_finder/ which if legit, looks to be worth its weight in gold provided I or anyone else reading it actually managed to scrape together some Good Pieces.

Does anyone know about this (or perhaps any equivalent and decidedly legit links)? I haven't done any querying or submitting yet because I'm sort of trying to figure out what I want to do before I do it, but I really want to avoid being taken in by a scammer or having my work stolen.

By the way, I like the "spelling reference" you have put up. I hadn't noticed it before. I really dislike mispelling words, especially proper nouns.

Market Finder looks like a market list; there are several others.

No list is 100%. It's up to you to research the individual markets once you've located them.

Please don't submit a story anywhere until you've read one or two issues of a magazine, or a few books they've published.

Please don't submit a story anywhere until you've read one or two issues of a magazine, or a few books they've published.

Yes, of course. That's one of the reasons why I haven't submitted or queried anything yet. I'm a slow reader (my reading is only marginally faster than my writing) so I'm taking some time to pin down what I want to do - and even trying to pin down what I want to pin down, to a certain extent since reading is so hard for me.

Don't get me wrong, I am literate, and I do read for fun, but it takes me a week to read a mid-length novel even if I'm trying pretty hard and I have friends who can do the same in an evening. Knowing this helps me out because I can look at the fifty books I read in a year and feel accomplished, even if I have friends who will have read four or five times as many in the same amount of time.

Technically, "convicted" should read "adjudged," as it was not a criminal proceeding, but an administrative law finding.

But I am just being a lawyer and quibbling.

Thank you, Charlie. Next time I find it necessary to talk about Robert M. Fletcher of Boca Raton, FL, I shall certainly call him an adjudged swindler rather than a convicted conman.

A wiki...wow. Wonder how long until it's gone?

Serge @ 5

As I recall, Hydra was also Nick Fury's nemesis. They had a highly imaginative special ops group that once attacked SHIELD HQ on skateboards (I always wondered what the recoil of an assault rifle would do to you if you were shredding at the time you fired it).

Bruce Cohen @ 13... Attacking Nick Fury sounds dumb, and especially so if you're on a skateboard. At least, AIM's Modok (aka Big Head) never tried to pull such a stunt.

Bruce Cohen writes in #13:

As I recall, Hydra was also Nick Fury's nemesis. They had a highly imaginative special ops group that once attacked SHIELD HQ on skateboards (I always wondered what the recoil of an assault rifle would do to you if you were shredding at the time you fired it).

As I recall, SHIELD Headquarters was aboard a giant flying aircraft carrier.

I can only conclude that Hydra's skateboard assault force must be both highly imaginative and extraordinarily skillful.

JDM #6:

Website owners using Google AdSense can at their option "filter out specific competitors or specific advertisers." [emphasis added]

Someone with the keys to the AdSense account would have to take positive action to screen out the McCain ad, if they in fact thought it wasn't appropriate. But it can be done.

Kelley @ #7: I would also suggest Ralan.com, which IMO is very strong as a short story market listing (and has book markets as well), and AgentQuery.com, which is one of the better online agent listings.

But please note that no market listing is 100%. Even the Jeff Herman dead tree guide to agents, the guide most people recommend for new writers, has seen some scammers slip in. Due diligence on markets and agents is essential, both to determine if they're legit and to determine if they'd be a good fit for your work.

More importantly, I'd also recommend reading through some resources for newly-submitting writers. Miss Snark, Preditors and Editors, AbsoluteWrite, the SFWA About Writing articles, and the galaxy of writer blogs are all good places to start.

#16: But it can be done.

Oh, yeah, I know it can be done. I've even posted specific instructions on exactly how to do it.

That the Google Ads are unfiltered here is a conscious decision.

G. Jules @ 17: and the galaxy of writer blogs are all good places to start.

Though I would recommend sticking to the blogs of authors published by houses you've heard of, that are on the shelves of your local bookstores or available for download by reputable publishers (whatever form that may take).

Taking advice from the unpublished or those published by vanity presses and author mills is not recommended. They don't know how publishing actually works, and they can't tell you.

I'm going to sue everybody for defaming my good name! Be warned.

I am a blogger and I wrote a screenplay, and accidently submitted to them. Thanks for writing this. Anways. thnk y mght njy t. ts bt 24 yr ld tht trs t mk t t th bgscrn wth hs wn scrnply. ts clld "Spc Shftr Csy"

http://www.chpcllctn.cm/msc-ndstry-nws/spc-shftr-csy/
http://dgg.cm/tch_nws/_24_yr_ld_Blggr_s_ttmpt_t_Mk_t_nt_th_Bg_Scrn

Fl fr t pst th lnk, r cntct m.

lln Drk
sprcl@chrtrm.nt
http://www.myspc.cm/llndrk

Allan, I've got nothing against you, but that's an advertisement.

Just as a follow up to the issue of WL Writers’ listing on the AboutUs wiki: I'm at a demo being given by Ray King of AboutUs, and I asked what their policy is on disputes over how companies should be represented. Ray said that their policy is to always side with the outside community over the domain holder. I think that could be tricky to manage, but it's useful that it's possible to write "this company has been convicted of fraud" and they'll let that stand as part of the domain's record.

Hi, all

I just submitted a query to the WL Writer's Literary Agency and received the same initial interested reply from Sherry Fine. Suffice to say, I was pretty bummed out to find all the negative reviews about the agency.

They got my hopes up and I guess I was desperate enough to fall for it...at least until they asked me to pay fees (then I would've noticed that red flag) and backed out.

I am ashamed to admit that we fell for this scam. My wife is a first time writer and has a fantastic work. She did some snooping around and got the interest letter from Sherry. We even paid for the $89 "third party professional critique". I am currently disputing the charge through PayPal. To say I am angry is an understatement. Thanks to sites like this I don't have to be strung along much longer.

I could not disagree more. This agency has been nothing but helpful to me. I have several ideas in the works with them. I do not understand how people can complain about paying for publication. Do you have any idea what an agent, and an editor cost? This site is great, and if used properly will be a huge stepping stone for those like me, who just dont have the audience. I have found the site to be very helful!

Jonathan (26): So you've found this agency to be helpful? Have they made any sales for you? That's how professional agents earn their money.

And editors are paid by the publisher, not the writer.

Content is what matters. If you try to sell inferior work, dont blame the person you hire to shop it around for its failure. Services rendered are due pay, no matter the result. I have spent hundreds on work not worthy for publication, simply because i didnt listen. WL agents, have shown me the process, and i am thankful for there insight. And will continue to use them

Nothing sold yet, but i am intune with the process. I have paid for an education, that will lead to my publication. I am no dimwit, and not easily roused, so i am unscamable, and besides the have been nothing but upfront with me about fees. NOthing hidden, nothing i didnt agree too!

Billy (25) and Jonathan (26): I'm sorry to say but you have both been scammed.

WL has yet to make any sales, and it's run by an adjudged scammer. You can read about it here.

My agent does not charge me any fees because she's confident she can sell my novels. She would not have signed me as a client otherwise.

Jonathan, Billy -- it's a natural human reaction to deny that someone's managed to scam you, especially in a situation like this. But you have been scammed, by people who are good at it; by people who know very well how to exploit the fact that how the publishing industry works is not common knowledge. There is no shame in this -- you are far from the first, and alas you won't be the last.

Editors are paid by the publisher. The publisher gets money by selling books to the general public. The agent makes money by taking a cut of the money that the publisher pays to the writer. The writer does not pay money to any of these people. When it comes to fiction, if you are paying money for anything but the cost of printing the manuscript and posting it to an agent, you are being scammed.

Real agents make their living from a cut of the money paid by the publisher to the writer. Scam agents can't make their living that way, because they can't sell anything to a real publisher. If you are very unlucky, they will sell you to a scam publisher, a publisher that will in turn take money from you when they should be the ones paying *you*.

Wow! Two different posters show up within six minutes of each other, both praising WL Writers' Literary Agency, both with @yahoo.com email addresses, and both posting from the exact same ISP in Florida.

What are the odds?

Billy (29),
You are absolutely correct as far as you go. The problem is that REAL agents DON'T shop inferior work around. So no, you shouldn't feel surprised that WL Literary fails to sell your work. But then, why would you pay someone to sell your work who has never sold anything?

I'm afraid that Mr Macdonald is, as is his wont, right. You are arguing with the scammer's own sockpuppets. It would be more useful to open a dialogue with Echo. Or Eliza, the computer program.

Dave Luckett #35: Or the Fandango movieline lady.

Let me pretend that "Jonathan" and "billy Walsh" are different people, and that they're real people (even though they share an ISP with each other, and with "Sherry Fine" and with "Georgina Orr" and with Robert Fletcher).

#26
I do not understand how people can complain about paying for publication.

Because, as Rocky used to say to Bullwinkle, that trick never works.

Do you have any idea what an agent, and an editor cost?

Yes. They cost the author nothing. Once you get out of the demimonde of scams and scammers, that is.

#29

If you try to sell inferior work, dont blame the person you hire to shop it around for its failure.

Agents who have a reputation for sending around "inferior work" quickly find themselves shuffled off to the agented slush pile, if not put on the automatic rejection list. Don't think that scam agenting is something that Fletcher invented. The publishing industry already has the antibodies for this infection.

The concept of "hiring" an agent is also one that you should look at long and hard, particularly if it involves cutting a check to that agent (the "aggressive agent" scheme that Fletcher uses as the last step of his scam, for example).

WL agents, have shown me the process, and i am thankful for there insight.

"WL agents" don't know the process. The paid "critique." The paid "professional edit." Those laughable "professional query" letters. The web page. The "Looking-For-Now Database." The "Aggressive Agent" program (where you pay to have someone actually send stuff out).

If I weren't certain in my heart of hearts that you personally are Robert M. Fletcher, adjudged scammer, I'd weep for you.

As it is, though, I'll just say, "Better luck next time, Bobby."

Dave Luckett @ 35: But refuting the sockpuppets' arguments educates those innocents who stumble across this site, so doing so serves a purpose.

aconite #38: Oh, certainly. Notice I did say "open a dialogue with" not "refute the arguments of". Refuting false argument is a community service, I agree.

Dave @38: two posters showing up in rapid succession on an inactive thread -- probably sock puppets, even without confirmation of the IP address. But as Aconite says, it's as well to refute them, for the benefit of anyone Googling for more information on this agency they've seen advertised.

(Another lesson: a simple rule of thumb is that if an agent or publisher is advertising through Google Ads for writers, it's almost certainly a scam of some kind. Real agents and publishers already have more submissions than they can easily handle; they don't need to advertise for more.)

Note as well that Jonathan's email changes, but that both are yahoo accounts.

Not probative, but interesting.

first of all i have several email accounts, and have to differentiate from mr fletcher, who by the way i dont know and probably never will. I have been published in 1992, 1994, and in 2003. I have been in college text books ever since my first submission to a professor. I have a degree with honors, and understand why some of you might think its a scam. Agents (book agents) charge on the back end, and sometimes hide charges such as editiing costs. This company sells what you have faith in. Whether it is drivel or captivating. If you are new to the field or removed, this agency can help. I have made several contacts, and even have found an editor. So mish mash my name all you want, the point of this forum is to give perspective. I have not been scammed!!! I have paid for a service, that did exactly what it said it would do. Oh and i dont know how i can have the same ip as someone, who ive never met! I think your mistaken. I have no contact with bob fletcher, dont work for him, infact his company works for me, and they continue to!

One last note, we attack what we feel has wronged us. I ask you to ask yourself if maybe, just maybe it is the pen that failed and not the agent. Can you blame Scott Boras, for Barry Bonds performance! No, as his agent his job is to shop him, not be responsible for his numbers. So why, blame this agency, i have noticed other agency you attack, and dont know anything about them. it seems you do, and maybe the rejection is what makes you smarmy with rethoric, and accusation. Take responsiblity for your own actions

Jonathan @ 42

This company sells what you have faith in.

That's what every con artist does.
Good agents and publishers don't make you pay for being published.

I have a degree with honours as well, and I have been published in both fiction and non-fiction. The fiction is commercially published, the non-fiction is in academic and government publishing. I have never paid to be published, even in academic publishing. Some academic journals do charge the author's institution a per-page fee, but this is specific to academic journals, and not all of those -- it in no way applies to commercial publishing.

And I think this agency is a scam because it *is* a scam. This scam agency can help nobody other than its owner.

The help a new writer needs is help in finding a publisher who will pay them for their manuscript. Any agent capable of doing that does not need to charge money up front to the author. If they don't sell the manuscript, they don't get paid. It gives them a strong incentive to sell manuscripts, thus making money for both agent and author.

If the agent is charging money up front to the author, it is because they are not able to make money by taking a 15% commission of the money paid by a publisher to the author. WL can't make money from commission, because they have never sold a manuscript to a real publisher.

I recognize that line of talk. That's not Billy Walsh; that's Robert Fletcher.

Heya, RF. Why are you hanging here? You tired of getting thrashed at Absolute Write?

Cant speak for billy, but i know im not!
And if any of you had agents outside of literature, you would see that it is not a scam!

For an allegedly published writer, your grammar commits illegal distaste activities with dead fauna....

Note, I am a "published writer" [uncredited column in RTC magazine, three articles in CD-ROM Professional, credited to someone else article in Auto ID News or some such, limited distribution material in DTIC and in market research studies...] and I am completely underwhelmed.

[TTTO of Matchmaker... from Fiddler on the Roof]

Sock puppet, sock puppet
Typing away,
Spewing your slime,
Day after day.
Writing your garbage
For money's sake,
Pretending you aren't
A fake.

Oh asshole, please stop your posturing
Claiming that you aren't a fake,
You show us and try to convince us
That you're not a huge mistake!

Sock puppet, sock puppet
Please go away,
Find somewhere else
And there you should stay,
We do not want you here
Why don't you go
And please find some other life!

And if any of you had agents outside of literature, you would see that it is not a scam!

Did you miss Julia's comment at #45, or are you just ignoring it? She writes both fiction and no-fiction, and demonstrates that you know not whereof you speak.

Ye gods and tiny brine shrimp, out comes the 'I'm academically qualified (and you're not)' line. Did it get included in the Flamer thread? (Granted, it's a subspecies of argument ad verecundiam, but it deserves to be noted as its own special kind of inanity).

Er, that should be "distasteful" rather than "distaste" in the previous post.

Fragano @ 50

I don't recall seeing that particular one.
On the other hand, I saw one this morning that was to the effect that because fact x was published in [a certain hard to find publication] in 1895, that it can't be called previously unknown. Which is technically accurate, but misses the aspect that most of the readers of the post have never seen it before. (It didn't help that the two people involved have a running feud, that one of them is a bit sloppy in their work, and that the other considers it a mitzvah to rid the world of the first's work (or at least to rid the newsgroup of the first's posts).

Jonathan – speaking as one of the few unpublished people that post on ML, I can observe that you obviously have no clue regarding the credentials of those you address. You claim to be in the know about publishing and writing, perhaps you were sleeping during the lecture on research?

Your continued posts are belligerent, arrogant, negligent, and ignorant. I will overlook the errors in spelling, grammar, and punctuation, as we are all human and mistakes happen.

If you are not a sock puppet, you are managing to make yourself look, to put it bluntly, willfully stupid.

If you are a sock puppet, as history would suggest, why don't you scurry away and go try to sell your snake oil to a more gullible group?

Ernest Hemingway "Those who play the education or erudicical card with regard to my punctuation or spelling, usually means that they lack the very posturing the claim to stand"

Oh, God. This troll is pathetic. Put it out of its misery, please.

Oh and i have never claimed to know anything, about literary agents!!! I had a agent represent me in the sporting venue. so thats all i know. that and this sight has actually helped me. I am sorry if it hurt others, but it has done good things for me, and my craft. I dont want to be beligerent, but i as you cannot be convinced, so i will leave it at that.

Oh and anyone who criticizes my writing by my posting(grammar, spelling ros and the like), feel free to do so. The world needs more english teachers, and maybe your lack of content has caused you to focus on the least important part of writing!! All you need to do is read a rough draft of a classic, any classic, and you will see my point! I wish all of you well, and mean no malicious intent. I just am deabting a point. One that i am not bound to by affiliation! This is what i do! Sorry if you disagree, but just look at the comments it has spawned. I think wlliteraryagent.com has been useful! If you dont, then fine!

I call bingo! Who do I show my card to?

The moderately clever thing about Robert Fletcher's scam is that, at first, he doesn't apparently charge money up front.

First, he accepts anyone who submits (including complete gibberish, and I really mean it -- random keystrokes) via a web form. Says that to go further the author must get a paid third-party critique, and by great good luck he just happens to know of such a third-party critique service (which is really just him with another email address). That's around $90.

After paying for the critique, the author is told that his book is accepted, but that it must be professionally edited. By great good luck, he happens to know of a fine professional editor (who is really just him at a different email address). That's up into the four-figure range.

After pretending to submit the manuscript for a while, with a total lack of success, he tells the author that what's really needed is a professional web page advertising the manuscript. By great good luck he just happens to be able to offer such a web page for a mere $125.

When that doesn't produce a sale, he offers his final solution: the "aggressive agent" program, by which (for a mere $90 for five submissions) he will actually submit stuff to publishers!

After this doesn't work, and the author starts asking questions, he says, "What do you expect? You were the one who wrote a crappy book that no one wants to buy," or words to that effect.

Here's a bit of what Bobby (writing as "Sherry Fine") says about the word that's all over the Internet from people who've experienced his scam first hand:

The next group is basically just upset that they can't make it as a writer and they are spiteful and generally upset with the way the world treats them. And to add to their angst, telling a writer their story isn't good enough to sell is like telling a parent that their kid is ugly. And, when a writer is upset, they write hateful things. We just toughen up and ignore them. I suggest you do the same.

That's right, kicked to the curb, told you're a lousy writer (when your book could be wonderful--it didn't sell because the WL Writers' Literary Agency doesn't know jack about selling books and doesn't even try), and they ignore you thereafter.

Didn't stop 'em from cashing your checks, though.

I note that "Jonathan" has some of Robert's verbal tics. But I'm still going to pretend that he's someone other than Robert M. Fletcher, conman.

Okay, "Jonathan":

I have been published in 1992, 1994, and in 2003.

Titles? Publishers?

Oh and i dont know how i can have the same ip as someone, who ive never met!

The same IP address as a scammer who's been in heavy damage-control mode lately, and who's notorious for using sockpuppets and shills. How can that be? You tell me, sport. It's beyond my feeble powers of deduction.

But seeing as you're in the WL Writers' Literary Agency's good graces right now, maybe you can help me out with something. Every time I ask "Sherry Fine" or "Georgina Orr" or Robert Fletcher they never reply. Maybe you will be able to find an answer.

What are the titles, authors, and publishers of five books the WL Writers' Literary Agency has sold in the past year?

I have been published in 1992, 1994, and in 2003.

Titles? Publishers?

Yes, do tell. I'm catching the earthy wiff of all natural bovine fertilizer. A couple of ISBN's would sort much out.

my question is this, how is a unguaranteed unsolicited work, that is shopped around for publication, that fails, the fault of the promoter?

My publications have been limited to essay, and content verification in literature text books! Most of the work is annoymous, and was never paid, as i was a student, so my education was my pay! I know that may sound schillish, but it is still the truth. I believe in healing through literature. That is what i write about, and believe me or not, but wl has helped me make some very legitimate contacts. I understand skepticism, and i dont expect my words to gather support from the already jaded! I just think its only fair to tell both sides of the story. This is my point. I am not asking anyone to follow, i am just telling my story, which is by the way very real! I dont claim to know anything special, but i can tell when something is working for me or against me, and wl has been nothing but an ally, apaid ally, but an ally none the less!

John Mark Ockerbloom @ #57:

I'll confirm your Bingo. Now if I only had a prize to offer...
How about a can of Spam? That's easier to find than a haunch of flame roasted troll.

my question is this, how is a unguaranteed unsolicited work, that is shopped around for publication, that fails, the fault of the promoter?

First red flag: 'promoter'.
Second red flag: 'unguaranteed'.

Now, if an agent takes an unsolicited manuscript, the agent isn't going to make money if it isn't bought by a publisher. However, if a publisher doesn't buy it, it may be the 'fault' of the writer, the agent, or possibly the publisher. (The writer may not be good at it, or may have done a poor job of preparing the manuscript; the agent may not have found the right publisher - trying to sell a novel as mainstream when it's fantasy, for example; or the publisher may not have room on the schedule, or may not want another novel about Knight In Shining Armor Wins Fair Maiden After Slaying Dragon.)

The fault, dear Jonathan, is not in your stars, but in yourself. Or your writing skills.

oh and namecalling will only endear you further into the respit of my heart. You seem to be coming from a dark oak-like cask that is full of presumption, and contempt. However you dont know me, only presume to, and by calling me a troll, you only want me hunt more! believe me i make a decent living finding out things about people. Some of you commentary on r fletcher, has caused me to search, and if you do, you will find published work presented by his company!! However if you want me to do it, than like my PI customers you will have to pay me for my research! Oh and keep the name calling coming, i love it!

Oh yes, "Jonathan," as long as I have you here....

Could you take the word back to "Sheriff Sherry" at Scam Central in Boca Raton that I've called "her" out?

Thanks.

Poor use of metaphor. C+.

My dark cask full of presumption and contempt is made of genuine oak. And don't you forget it.

Jonathan claims to be a PI.
If so, he should be better at spotting scams.

(I've googled the e-mail he's using - jm@ - and most of the mentions have to do with servers and networks. Nothing visible about writing.)

"jm@yahoo.com" also links to a 419 scammer.

A two-letter yahoo email address would probably get a reasonable amount of money on eBay, as there are only 676 of them. Now, a one-letter address would really get the big bucks, but our boy is, sadly, not that fortunate.

He doesn't claim to be a PI; he said he has "PI customers". I'm not worried about the 3 so much as I am about the .14159... . Stashed in the freezer..?

Your PI customers? Are you implying that you're Peter Parente?

Oh, goodness. A name to conjure with.

Let's say it's really Pete. Hey, how ya doin'?

Tell me, when you're out being PI Man, and someone tells you half a dozen inconsistent, mutually-contradictory stories, what's your conclusion? That maybe he's fibbing?

Look, I know the list of books that Fletcher's claimed. Do you really want me to waste my time again going over it again and pointing out its weaknesses again?

You know, books to pay-to-play vanity PODs aren't all that impressive. Self-published works don't require a lot of agenting skill. Books that the authors sold themselves -- were sold by the author, not the agent.

And that covers the list, doesn't it?

Come on, R/o/b/e/r/t/ P/e/t/e/r/ Jonathan, how tough is it to list the WL Writers' Literary Agency's sales from the past year? Any real agent, you can't shut him up about what he's sold!

I wish i could answer. I am not robert, or peter, or any of the people you have claimed. My name is jonathan, i work as a private investigator, and write about healing and sports on the side. My job is not what i want to be, so i have been pursuing the publication avenue. I have had little succes on my own, and wl has helped me. I cant state in any clearer than that. I am a 32 yr old ex english major, who loves writing thats it! I claim nothing more nothing less. I wish i was this robert guy, sounds like he must be loaded preying on people as you have mentioned.

[tangent] Why must people who can't use the shift key continue to infest my major? I begin to believe that "English Major" was actually a code word for "Where we put the people who are here on sports scholarships and have the literacy of trained ferrets" in all colleges but the one I went to. [/tangent]

#29 ::: billy Walsh ::: (view all by) ::: July 25, 2007, 10:15 AM:

Six minutes later.

Cant speak for billy, but i know im not!

Friend, there's no reason to think that you're telling the truth about anything else, either. Being caught dead-to-rights in one lie makes it harder for anyone to believe anything else you say even if you're accidentally telling the truth.

But getting back to address your "billy" post: "If you try to sell inferior work, dont blame the person you hire to shop it around for its failure."

What the foo is any agent doing trying to sell inferior work? If you try to sell inferior work, putting it in an agency envelope won't magically make it sell. Instead, the agency will be noted as one that submits inferior work and get itself blacklisted -- even if, magically, they somehow manage to represent a superior work.

Which brings to mind -- I have a half-written post about Fletcher's "aggressive agent" program. I name names. Maybe you'd like me to dig it out, finish it up, and post it? How about it, "Jonathan," do you want another Google hit against your agency?

Now ... how about that list of sales?

ROFLMAOSTC!

Somebody accused me of being an English major or an English teacher? ROFLMAOSTC!

[Hint, the last English composition class I ever had, was in high school. I did take a technical writing class in college, because Air Force ROTC required it.... I do not, however, in any way, shape, or form, have any degrees in literature or grammar or any such fields.]

I generally stay out of "I have a degree in..." dick size wars, since it's often irrelevant to the subject at hand. Picking on someone for poor written English is also often poor form. But in this case, I have to ask why someone who claims to have an honours degree and be an English major has such poor written English.

My degree is BSc (Hons) Mathematics and Physics -- not a field greatly noted for intrinsic ability to construct a coherent sentence. But I don't recall many of my fellow students displaying as poor a grasp of written English as does our current pinata.

For the benefit of passers-by -- an agent who introduces a writer to fee-charging editors, fee-charging publishers, fee-charging etc has done that writer a disservice, not a favour.

Robert/Sherry/Georgina is trying to disguise his voice. But machts nicht aus. Some of his favorite turns of phrase still crept through.

Jonathan@61: My publications have been limited to essay, and content verification in literature text books! Most of the work is annoymous, and was never paid, as i was a student, so my education was my pay!

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

So, when you say you've been "published", that means you wrote some papers at school and gave someone feedback on a textbook?

My head hurts now.

Most of the work is annoymous

Truer words were never spoken.

Not just at school, Greg. In high school (if we believe one word this guy is saying about his current age and the dates of his publication).

So, when you say you've been "published", that means you wrote some papers at school and gave someone feedback on a textbook?

Actually, this brings up a question of mine that I've wondered about for a good long while: at what point can someone be called a "published author"? Or be said to have "been published", if these are two different categories?

Because I don't think it's quite the same thing as being a "professional author", but I would have thought that having a few articles printed up in one's school's literary magazine would count as being published. Not in a way that anyone else would take seriously, but "published".

(I ask this for selfish reasons: all of my publication credits are either for online magazines or for forms of media other than books, so I'm never sure, when these discussions come up, if I actually count as published or not. I do not want to claim I'm part of an exclusive club when I'm not, but I'm still fuzzy on the entrance requirements.)

My last post on the topic!
you know, I read all this and all I can say is that the WL Literary
Agency
has treated me fairly. They have NOT led me on with false promises.
They
told me how hard it is. They didn't make me use any of their companies
to
get my work edited, they just said that I had to get it edited and
improved.
I think that makes sense. And my work really needed it, whew!

I feel that I have a better chance with them than without them. Whether
they
sell my work or not we'll see. I read about their acquisition and I
think
they have changed and i've never seen the people or the stuff that you
guys
all write about. http://www.writersliterary.com/acquiretlag.html

They have shared with me their recent sales and I'm comfortable that
they
are selling work. I'm sorry to be such a newbie, but is there anyone
here
that has ever sold a book for someone else, not themselves? I think
that's
maybe the difference, you all seem so sure of yourselves, and I can see
that
some of you have had a book published, but is there anyone here that
has
sold a book for someone else? I would really value that person's
opinion...
so please reply if you've ever agented a book for someone else.

And, they told me up front to improve my work.. they didn't hide
anything.
I'm not a salesperson and I can't pretend to know anything about
agenting.
I want to write and to one day have my work sold and in print. I'm
glad
someone has taken the time to help me. I really am. I appreciate that
you
guys don't like them, but as far as I can tell unless someone from this
forum thinks they can sell my work for me, I'm sticking with them.
They
offer me hope, and a chance.. by the time I finish reading all this
from you
guys, I want to give up and slit my throat, you are all so negative..
yikes,
I wish you guys the best, but I'm getting back to my writing now, if I
spent
much more time on these forums frankly, I'd give up.

My last post on the topic!

Man, the house is losing big at the bingo table tonight. Just got another.

I must say I'm enjoying the syntactic ambiguity of "If you try to sell inferior work, dont blame the person you hire to shop it around for its failure."

If I hired someone to shop my work around, I'd want them to shop it around for its success, personally. But that's me.

yes i my first work was my freshman yr 1992! And if you need to do the math i was 16 at graduation! Oh and mr mcdonald, how do we know who you are? I question you sir, as you have directly questioned my integrity. I am offering my own insight, only to have you decide its legitmacy. I am going to find a different form, one where input and thought are given there just due, instead of being judged! Have you ever read a book or just decided its outcome by the cover. If you want i can send you my material, and maybe you can shop it. can you help? Besides over what not to do? If not, well then your as useless as your words!

Bingo!

'My last post on the topic!' isn't!

(I have to admit, this is more fun that what I'm supposed to be doing ....)

PJ Evans #52: I've been coming across it since, my goodness, 1988 (a fellow who said to me 'Do you want to argue with a Ph.D. -- at the time I was a gradual student, paid, inter alia, to argue with Ph.Ds). 'Jonathan's' pulling out of his honours degree (from Uncertain State U, perhaps?)is an example of the genre.

Jonathan #61: What's 'annoymous' is the complete absurdity of everything you write.

Jonathan (85): How do we know who Jim Macdonald is? Easy. You visit his webpage and read his extensive bibliography. Decades of publishing experience. Years and years of helping new writers navigate the tricksy shoals of publishing.

In other words, a knowledgeable, trustworthy person.

You, on the other hand, are an inarticulate shill for Robert Fletcher's scam agency. (If not Bouncing Bobby himself.)

But keep at it. The more you post here, the more you help us expose WL's operations.

Jonathan #64: Where in your heart is the 'respit' located? If your heart is spitting (or, as you seem to indicate, spitting again) perhaps you should consult a cardiologist.* You might also want to consult a primary school teacher of English, in order to be inducted into the arcane mysteries of orthography, accidence, syntax, capitalisation, and paragraphing.

* Or Jim Macdonald.

Jim: Not just at school, Greg. In high school

wait a sec...

42: published in 1992, 1994, and in 2003

72: I am a 32 yr old ex english major

Born in 1975?

1992 -> 17 years old
1994 -> 19 years old
2003 -> 30 years old

Dude, you're counting papers you wrote in high school and freshman comp in college as a "publication"?

If you're telling the truth, I... just don't know what to tell you, other than that isn't what folks call "publication". You should seriously stop using that descriptor.

If you're selling fertilizer, this is some seriously low grade bullsht not worth the trouble spreading. Surely you could come up with something better?

"mr mcdonald" -- now who might that be? James D. Macdonald is a fellow that LOTS of people have met in person and can verify is a Real Person, with Real Publication Credentials, such as a bunch of novels and various short stories, published by the likes of Tor Books and Eos (SF/F imprint of one of the big publishing conglomerates), most of them in conjunction with his wife and writing collaborator, Debra Doyle, who's got a PhD in literary stuff. Googling or going to say Amazon.com would provide bibliographic information about the books.

Graduation at 16--yawn. Worcester Polytechnic Institute would have admitted me at 16 if my parents would have been willing to let me skip my senior year in high school. I probably would have been better off if that had happened...

As for people who represent writers, some of them are called "literary agents" and most of the novelists who frequent Making Light have them... some few writers are their own agents, but most have someone representing them, for reasons that include the classic example on an author/agent/editor panel, when Joel Rosenberg was the author, and Eleanor Wood (whose clients include Joel and the Heinlein estate) the agent. At one juncture, the timeline event the moderator specified to Joel Rosenberg was something that set Joel off, and he started sputtering and snarling about some annoying to the writer thing that the editor/publisher had done, at which point, the moderator looked to Eleanor Wood, who said, "Shut up, Joel." Eleanor Wood then looked at the Editor, and said, "my client is unhappy...."

Values of agent include being a filter to translate Irate Author Reaction into urbane discussion informing the publisher, politely, that the author is unhappy and what ought to be done to reconcile things.

Jonathan: yes i my first work was my freshman yr 1992! And if you need to do the math i was 16 at graduation!

Never have I met someone so unable to find the shift key to capitalize a letter, but quite able to hit the shift key to put an exclamation mark at the end of so many sentences.

Oh and mr mcdonald, how do we know who you are?

My gawd. Here I was starting to worry that the pinate was running out of candy. Sheesh.

Sure, "Jonathan"! Send me your book!

I'll do every bit as much to sell it as Robert Fletcher will, and I won't charge you a dime (unlike his "aggressive agent" program).

Send it as an .rtf attachment to yog@sff.net, no later than seven pm EDT today.

=================

How do you know who I am?

I use my real name. Lots of the people who post here know me face to face in real life. My email address is easily available (and it isn't @yahoo.com, either).

I have tracks all over the web, dating back years (unlike "Georgina Orr" and "Sherry Fine" and "Hil Mallory" and "Mary Bluestone" and the rest of the circus clowns, pseudonyms, and sockpuppets at WL Writers Literary Agency). If you walk into your neighborhood B&N you can find my books on the shelf.

But you? Smoke and mirrors and lies. That's all. Smoke and mirrors and lies. That's all we ever get from the happy sockpuppets of WL Writers Literary Agency.

===============

You imagine you have some kind of devastating argument when you say that no one here has ever sold a book for someone else. First, don't be so sure, champ. Second, it's meaningless. You don't have to be a jockey to handicap a horserace.

How many books has WL Writers' Literary Agency sold, ever? You say you know: "They have shared with me their recent sales and I'm comfortable that they are selling work."

Great! Share the list with me. Cut'n'paste, right here, right now.

You say you will have a better chance with them than without them? Don't be so sure. With agents past performance is an indication of future results. What makes you think you'll be one bit more successful than any of their other clients?

"Whether they sell my work or not we'll see."

I'll bet a hundred bucks, cash money, that they never sell your work.

"I read about their acquisition and I think they have changed and i've never seen the people or the stuff that you guys all write about. http://www.writersliterary.com/acquiretlag.html"

Already seen, already refuted.

"And, they told me up front to improve my work.. they didn't hide anything."

Of course they did! The "professional editor" scam is where they make their money.

You want to sell your work? Get a real agent. We aren't negative toward agents -- just to scammers pretending to be agents.

Maybe for a hundred bucks he'll give the Schmuck in the White House a blow job, and write it up in a book entitled, Washington by Days, Atlanta by Nights to be published by Publish America

[multiple cheap shots...]

Seven-thirty, and no book from "Jonathan." I guess he doesn't want me to sell his book.

Sorry, "Jonathan," you may have lost your one chance at real representation. Fortunately for me, and unfortunately for you, there's 10 more to take your place.

Best of luck regardless.

Darn it all, I missed all the excitement. :(

Dave Kuzminski #97: And what fun it's been. I must admit to not seeing the full picture before, and gratefully acknowledge aconite's putting me straight. Groucho once remarked that not listening to (some guy whose name I forget) was a liberal education. Something like that has been happening here.

Dave Luckett: Educational and entertaining public service. What could be better?

But really, I think we're still in the warmup stage. Bobby will be back. He can't not do it--it's one of his tics.

Bobby will be back.

Hm. Or a newly invented sock puppet.

Candy!

It was Harry Ruby. The guy who not listening to him was a liberal education. I should have known that. And, while I'm at it, I should quit writing sentences with syntax like that.

Dave 101: Hmm, starting like that I really should tell you all about Dave...but instead I'll respond to his post.

There's no good way to phrase that, Dave. The semiliterate-applicable rules would say "The guy not listening to whom was a liberal education," which IMO is worse than your version.

What, no more fun troll-stomping because the troll Iglied? [hairy stinky feet in mouth, UGH!]

Fade Manley @ #73: [OT]At my university it was the Business programs that all the barely literate "scholarship" students were placed in.[/OT]

So why did the sockpuppet show up here?

When you Google on WL Writers' Literary Agency the first two links that come up are to Writer Beware, which doesn't have a messageboard.

The third link is to the scammer's own site.

The fourth link is to right here. That's why he came: for damage control. I think the accurate information that's all over the web is killing him. Listen to the form letter that "Sherry Fine" sends to questioning authors:

"[The watchdogs] don't reply and they seem to enjoy creating dissension and hurting our business."

Read the whole letter; it's lots of fun.

How's this for "don't reply," "Sherry"? How's this for "spirited dialogue"?

Where's that list of your sales from the past year?

Two illuminating facts about Robert Fletcher:

1. Sherry Fine doesn't exist. Neither does Georgina Orr, or any of the other "employees" at Fletcher's agency. He periodically changes their names for the same reason he periodically changes the name of the agency itself: so that when naive writers Google on his operation, they don't see all the denunciations and exposes that are linked to the former sets of names.

2. His previous line of business was securities fraud. After his felony conviction, he was permanently barred from securities trading. That's when he changed over to running a fraudulent literary agency.

A bit of a correction, Miss Teresa: As Jaws pointed out above, Fletcher wasn't "convicted," since it wasn't a criminal trial. It was a civil procedure, hence the proper term is "adjudged."

Oh -- the current version of the form letter "Sherry Fine" is sending out to questioning authors has this paragraph in it:

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. We've seen it before (sigh), and we've researched it pretty thoroughly. Basically, there are less than 5 main sites and they all copy each other. They are run by Ann Crispin, Victoria Strauss, and Dave Kuminisky, and James MacDonald, and they purport to be the watchdogs of the industry. Ann Crispin has sold TWO books in 10 years, Victoria maybe one, and Dave and Jim, I don't think any.. ..(hmmmm, can you see a trend here?)

I'd like to invite everyone to compare this example of "Sherry Fine"'s prose with Jonathan's #82, above.

Thank you for the correction, Jim.

How come scammers never list me as one of the bad guys?

What on Earth does it mean to have sold "maybe one" book? Either you sold it or you didn't, right?

And yeah, James Macdonald, James Macdonald...doesn't ring any bells. I don't think he's ever sold any books.

Teresa (108): Because they are thinking you are the Thing and beyond other such earthly classification?

Tell you what, everyone, go out to your local bookstore right now and buy "maybe one" of my books. (Or maybe buy a bunch: they make perfect Labor Day presents.)

Personal for "Sherry": There's a copy of my latest on the shelves right now in the Borders in Boca Raton.

Is that anything like being a little bit pregnant?

Here's what I don't understand and maybe someone has more insight and can illuminate for me.

If I've gotten that letter, then it came in response to questions I sent about research I've done online into the agency, right? Chances are, if I've gone that far, I wouldn't mind digging a bit deeper into the response "Sherry" sends. Then I'll know for sure "Sherry" is a pathological liar.

So, why does "Sherry" even bother to answer? Is it that "Sherry", thinks people are so stupid they'll just accept this response as valid after they've already raised concerns?

Or, is it a numbers game, like spam - out of so many responses at least one or two folk say "ok, good point" and keep sending him their money instead of doing additional research, so it's worth the effort? Thinking about it, it's probably an autoresponder so, yeah, no real effort is involved.

There's a real will to believe that you've made a good business decision, that you're incapable of being scammed because you're too darned smart and careful. Plus, anyone who claims they love your book (even if it's via an autoresponder form letter) is All Right by You (honest, fair, a person of unfailing judgment and great good sense). There's a reason they're called "confidence games."

Someday you should read up on scams in general. For example:

Scammer walks up to a random person. Says, "This paper bag contains a million dollars in cash! I want you to hold it for me while I run home for a snack. But, to show you're a trustworthy person, give me a hundred dollars as a sign of good faith!"

Person says "Okay!" and gives the scammer $100.

Sun sets. The scammer still hasn't returned. The person looks in the bag and discovers there's just a bunch of cut-up newspaper in there!

Woe. Sadness.

You'd think "No one could be that gullible," but, really, no kidding, people fall for that exact scam every day.

How come scammers never list me as one of the bad guys?

Fear?

she who shall not be named.....

Dawno #113:

If I've gotten that letter, then it came in response to questions I sent about research I've done online into the agency, right? Chances are, if I've gone that far, I wouldn't mind digging a bit deeper into the response "Sherry" sends. Then I'll know for sure "Sherry" is a pathological liar.

Actually, it's more likely that Author A posts something in a comment thread on a LiveJournal about getting an agent, and Bystander B replies, "Writers' Literary? I heard they were a scam."

So Author A, worried, writes to "Sherry Fine," and gets that reply. All's well! Just a few misguided, bitter, failed writers trying to drag down a successful agency. Write that check for the critique! Write that check for the edit! Nothing to worry about, Author A! "Sherry" explained it all.

Thanks, Jim. I appreciate the insights. There's a twisted logic to it all that I didn't quite understand.

For that matter, your bog-standard Nigerian "Spanish prisoner" scam - you know the sort, we have this huge sum of money, and you can have part of it, just send us a little bit of cash to grease the wheels - nets a bunch of organised criminals big, big bucks every day, given a big enough spam operation.

I don't mean by this any of the slightly smarter (and even more criminal) phishing operations ("Look at all this money you can have if you just send us your account details so we can pay you") or the rubber-check scams, with their variations. I don't even mean the gypsy switch and its variants, one of which Mr Macdonald describes above. I mean your absolute basic advanc