(Stealing) I try to speak only good of the dead. Falwell is dead. That's good.

Posted May 15, 2007 11:01 PM by Seth Breidbart

MSNBC would never have made that mistake in researching Anna Nicole Smith. (Would they?)

Posted May 15, 2007 11:23 PM by Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey

Falwell was a class act even as a 25 year old:

"[I]f Chief Justice Warren and his associates had known God's word and had desired to do the Lord's will, I am quite confident that the 1954 decision would never have been made ... The facilities [for the races] should be separate. When God has drawn a line of distinction, we should not attempt to cross that line."

Good riddance.

Posted May 15, 2007 11:39 PM by Stefan Jones

I'm taking flak on a listserve I belong to for being happy that the bastard's dead! Can you believe it?

Weird.

These aren't even people who thought Falwell was a good man.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:02 AM by Xopher

Xopher, you should check out the thread at Pandagon. Admittedly, only three trolls at last count, but one is too many.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:11 AM by Sajia Kabir

Falwell: Global Warming was cooked up by Satan to delude christians.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:13 AM by Stefan Jones

Here's a meme (in the original sense) to keep alive in his honor:

Fundamentalist cleric Jerry Falwell died today, age 73.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:30 AM by Andrew Plotkin

"I do question the sincerity and non-violent intentions of some civil rights leaders such as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mr. James Farmer, and others, who are known to have left-wing associations."
Jerry Falwell on the civil rights movement.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:33 AM by jmnlman

And of course the big one.

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen."
Jerry Falwell on 9/11.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:35 AM by jmnlman

To echo the sentiments of many others, good riddance to bad rubbish. Now if only the media would stop trying to be balanced and call him out as the force for evil that he was.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:39 AM by Larry Brennan

My first thought echoed #1.

My second thought: "...Not Fred Phelps? Damn."

I know, I know. I'm not a nice person.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:45 AM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

Phelps is planning to "attend" Falwell's funeral.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:56 AM by Seth Breidbart

Here are some other prize quotes, collected by a newspaper-columnist friend of mine:

"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals - most of them are failures. They've blown it. Some of them have been married, but they married some Casper Milquetoast who asked permission to go to the bathroom. These women just need a man in the house. That's all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they're mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They're sexist. They hate men - that's their problem."

(Wow. I don't think I'd ever realized before that Falwell was a rape advocate, but I suppose it fits with the rest of his positions well enough.)

"The ACLU is to Christians what the American Nazi party is to Jews."

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

I suggest a bit of quiet warfare on our parts: anywhere we see Falwell's praises being sung, insert these quotes, and any others that people feel like digging up as well. In the interests of "fair and balanced coverage," let's make sure that Falwell gets remembered for everything he did.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:21 AM by Lee

Why in the name of anything at all that's truly holy should any human being with respect for human decency be anything but glad that that sanctimonious turd is dead? There should be dancing in the streets, and offerings given to any deity who helped out with the eviction notice.

He made it his vocation to try to rip the fabric of American society apart in order to redo it in his own image, and we owe him nothing but disgust and contempt for that.

And Nicole? I am a nice person. Imagine what I might have said were I not.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:38 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

I find myself hoping that when he arrived in Heaven, he was greeted by gays, feminists, pagans, Democrats, etc.

Posted May 16, 2007 2:10 AM by Lois Fundis

I hope he was greeted by an Old Testament Yaweh, who was really pissed at Falwell.

Quite possibly the best writing H G Wells ever did was in a short story about the (almost) Christian Judgement Day, in which God raises you up to his face so He can whisper all the truly embarrassing things you did in your life into your ear.

Posted May 16, 2007 2:18 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

By the way... kudos to Teresa for presciently linking (in Particles on May 14) to Youtube video by the savagely funny musician Roy Zimmerman - whose oeuvre includes the scathing "Jerry Falwell's God"!

Posted May 16, 2007 2:24 AM by Alan P. Scott

I wonder who else besides Fred Phelps will be around the Falwell funeral?

If you're a terrorist motivated by a non-Christian religion, it might start to look like a target for a decapitation strike.

(And if you're a fundamentalist non-Christian cleric, you're probably praying nobody tries it.)

Posted May 16, 2007 2:45 AM by Dave Bell

You know, I just can't rejoice over someone's death, no matter who they are. Several reasons, I suppose, most important probably, that one of the earliest bits of abstract morality I learned was that you don't do that. Four decades plus later, I still remember that conversation with my mother - vividly.

(Snarkiest reason and the one I'm least proud of? "Rejoicing that someone's dead? It's something Fred Phelps would do.")

So, do I feel sorrow? No. I do feel a certain sense of relief and some little wistfulness that a man with so many gifts made such poor use of them.

However, I can certainly see why many people feel as if a ten ton weight has dropped from their shoulders and hearts and I won't condemn them for it. Not one tiny bit. I have had the blessing of not belonging to one of his target groups in any meaningful way. I will not say that the people who he tried to opress should not rejoice that their opressor is gone.

Lee at 13, Oh, how I approve of what you're saying - truth is so important!

Bruce at 16, I had no idea that H.G. Wells had visited my personal hell. (Purgatory is having to watch the Mr. Bean movie again - all that social embarrassment.)

Posted May 16, 2007 3:07 AM by Margaret Organ-Kean

The evil little voice in the back of my head has John Denver singing "Forest Lawn", only in the third person... it seems so appropriate.

Posted May 16, 2007 3:10 AM by mjfgates

The first thing I said when I heard the news was, "I wonder how shocked the good Reverend was when he got into the elevator and it started going *down* instead of *up*."

Posted May 16, 2007 3:30 AM by meredith

Lee @ 13: Or perhaps a watch and a golden retriever?

Posted May 16, 2007 4:29 AM by Heresiarch

My first reaction was, well, now he knows whether he was right or not. I wonder what, if anything, he experienced?

My second was, may God have mercy on him, as may He on all of us. I don't think I've done the damage to society that he has (though I am still young and not dead - there's still time!), but I'd hate to find that there was a line beyond which mercy did not apply.

Like Margaret, I try not to rejoice at death, even the death of someone who has done such profound harm. Nor am I glad that he is no longer doing that harm, because his ghost may still haunt America for some time.

I do understand, however, how others may differ from my views.

Requiescat in pace.

Posted May 16, 2007 5:05 AM by abi

My favourite blog post on the subject so far is from James Wolcott: Tinky Winky Wave Bye Bye

Posted May 16, 2007 5:39 AM by Niall McAuley

I am reminded of an article from The Onion, titled Hijackers Surprised To Find Selves In Hell.

Posted May 16, 2007 5:55 AM by Earl Cooley III

abi @ 23... I don't think I've done the damage to society that he has (though I am still young and not dead - there's still time!), but I'd hate to find that there was a line beyond which mercy did not apply.

Isn't there such a line, in the minds of Falwell's ilk? You can be the most moral and the kindest person on Earth, but, if you were a man who loved men, or a woman who loved women, or if you loved freedom of speech more than you loved burning books you disapprove of, or if you believe in beings other than God, or if you believe in no Supreme Being, you know where you'll wind up. (Ever seen the Twilight Zone's 1986 episode Dead Run, based on a Greg Bear story?)

Oh, and by the way, abi, you've made the world a better place, not worse.

Posted May 16, 2007 6:31 AM by Serge

Serge,

As I said, I'm still young, and not dead yet. There is still time to turn to the Dark Side.

Posted May 16, 2007 6:44 AM by abi

abi @ 27... No effing way. Never.

Posted May 16, 2007 6:47 AM by Serge

i'm in Ur Lake Of Fire, Fleeing Ur Doodz

Posted May 16, 2007 6:51 AM by Jon H

I'm sure Mr. Falwell's family is mourning - there are few so evil that no one loves them, after all. I hope that his children and/or grandchildren find comfort in their faith.

But I can feel nothing but relief and hope at the news that such an evil, hate-filled little man is dead. Hope that his evil died with him, relief that he is no longer around to sway others to hatred.

I try very hard not to rejoice in the death of any human being (though I have done it - Pol Pot and Idi Amin, I'm looking at you), because I really think it makes me no better than they to act in such a manner.

Still, to my shame, my heart is lighter this morning.

Posted May 16, 2007 6:51 AM by harmonyfb

Jerry Falwell died a wealthy man who was never brought to justice for his evil.

So, am I sorry he's dead? Yes, because he died too soon.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:31 AM by Jon Meltzer

Did Falwell wield any real influence anymore? I don't even remember what he looks like.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:37 AM by Dan Guy

abi @ 27... There is still time to turn to the Dark Side.

Simply avoid creepy old men with bad teeth who keeping going on about this or that being your Destiny.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:51 AM by Serge

abi @ 27... There is still time to turn to the Dark Side.

Simply avoid creepy old men with bad teeth who keeping going on about this or that being your Destiny.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:52 AM by Serge

I saw the story in this morning's Toronto Star--and no fears that they're being too balanced there. They hit all the big quotes, and talked to at least one organization that had nothing nice to say about him.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/214305

Posted May 16, 2007 8:15 AM by Andrea

It kind of makes me glad to think that right now he's very surprised.

But I have to agree with this livejournal post; the Christian right isn't one person, it's a lot of people, and they'll find other people to tell them to believe odious things.

Posted May 16, 2007 8:26 AM by Emily H.

#36: Oh, yes. Falwell, in Circle 8, Bolgia 3 (Simonaics), is awaiting Robertson and Dobson. A better Dante scholar than me needs to write the appropriate verse.

Posted May 16, 2007 8:35 AM by Jon Meltzer

abi--

I concur. We can hate the man's actions, hate his words, and hate what he stood for.

But we can do it without adopting his gleeful lack of mercy and his joyous resignation of others to hellfire and damnation.

Sarah

Posted May 16, 2007 9:05 AM by Sarah S

Sarah @ 38:

So... love the sinner, hate the sin? *g*

Posted May 16, 2007 9:15 AM by Nic_C

A song an acquaintance of mine has written on the subject.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:16 AM by kouredios

I have to say the most amusing (not to mention vitriolic) commentary I've heard on the passing of this particular gas-bag was from Christopher Hitchens on Anderson Cooper last night. I presume somebody has the video somewhere. Sheesh. Talk about being flamed...

Posted May 16, 2007 9:29 AM by Michael Weholt

Serge @ 26

I don't know anything about Falwell's personal theology, even whether he had one or not, but I do know that a significant segment of the Fundamentalist Christian population believes in the Calvinist notion that whether you are damned or saved is inherent in you from birth, decided by God long before. This, of course, gives them license to do anything they want to those who are damned, since nothing can change that.* I've always thought this was a very strange perversion of Christianity.

* Somehow they manage to ignore the point that they have no evidence that they're among the Saved. The logic seems to be that if you act like one, you must be one.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:29 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Nic C #39

Goodness, no! I feel no compulsion to love, like, respect, listen to, or otherwise tolerate Falwell or his ilk.

I just try to despise them without *becoming* them.

(insert some quote about monsters and abysses...abbesses?...abyssim? here)

Posted May 16, 2007 9:36 AM by Sarah S

Bruce Cohen @ 42... I love this kind of theology. Not.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:42 AM by Serge

Jon @ 37: I make no claims to being a Dante scholar, but it's a slow day at work, so here ya go:

In one pit, reeking with self-righteousness,
I found a new arrival, soles aflame.
He stank of sanctimony; waves of smugness

Wafted (with disturbing lack of shame)
And blocked my nose. 'Tell me,' I choked through tears,
'Who are you, punished here? What is your name?'

'Falwell,' intoned the voice into my ears,
'Who should be king among the saved in heaven!
My enemies brought me low. Pagans and queers

told lies upon lies, seven times seven.
Those feminists (and -- but of course -- the Jews),
Not being pleased enough with 9/11,

Forcing themselves into the nightly news
So that their loathesome blasphemies are told
Like unto running sores that weep and ooze,

Condemned me when 'tis I alone who hold
the right to judge. They will be damned together!
They, THEY will someday suffer sevenfold!'

Removing from my cloak a dainty feather,
I tickled Falwell's feet, and so his howl
Followed me and Virgil through the nether.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:46 AM by Dorothy Rothschild

Sarah S @ 43... Coming soon, James Cameron's The Abbess...

"Get thee to a gunnery."

Posted May 16, 2007 9:51 AM by Serge

abi, Margaret, Sarah,

Please realize that those of us dancing in the aisles may not agree with you, but we (well, I at least) admire the strength it must take to extend your definition of humanity even to this one.

I've come to believe that no matter how great and varied the potential of a person may be at the beginning of life, there are some paths that, once taken, cannot be retraced, that some outcomes cannot be undone, and that at some point, the sinner and the sin* can become part of one thing. And we who remain on the this side of the darkness have to to find a way to deal with those people who willfully pass over into it.** If it takes rejoicing in their downfall to keep us motivated in resisting them, so be it.

* I'm using the term 'sin' for rhetorical reasons; it's not one I find has much meaning in my own view of things.

** The only reasonable definition of 'evil' I've ever found is 'the act of consciously, intentionally, or negligently causing harm to others, with no intention of redress or restitution." There are a lot of things that make the evil greater: taking pleasure in the harm done, or causing harm for its own sake, for instance, but, see Hanah Arendt, sometimes the greatest evil is characterized by causing great harm for trivial ends.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:52 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Bruce Cohen #16:I hope he was greeted by an Old Testament Yaweh, who was really pissed at Falwell.

No hell in the Old Testament, and iirc, it's pretty vague even in the New.

From what I've heard, Falwell was a rather nice guy in person. I hope he's given a detailed overview of the effects of what he's recommended. From the point of view of the people who's suffering he's contributed to.

I may be one of the very few who are ambivalent about his death. He'd become such a bad example, and I believe more and more people were getting revolted by his views.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:56 AM by Nancy Lebovitz

You have to see Christopher Hitchens's take on the late Rev, in an interview on CNN. He's not having any of this nil nisi bonum stuff.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:03 AM by theophylact

Falwell also managed to blame 911 on gays and feminists.

Between the time that the owners of the Teletubbies sent a cease&desist to walmart, and filing a lawsuit, Falwell stepped in to start the Tinky Winky is gay slander campaign. At that time, walmart was selling counterfeit Teletubbies, called "Bubbly Chubbies" that they had designed and contracted to be made in China.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:20 AM by Peter

Had roast pork last night to celebrate outliving a horrible, indeed loathsome, person and categorical enemy. My only regret is he didn’t go slowly, painfully, alone & universally disgraced.

My hope is his legacy will be his tens of thousands of sheeple followers miserably trying to someday explain to their more enlightened children & grandchildren how they could have followed such an awful person and his creed.

Jerry Falwall was an object lesson in hypocrisy, venality, and demagoguery.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:28 AM by Michael

Bravo, Dorothy!

When I heard the news of Falwell's death, the words that popped out of my mouth unbidden were "Oh, good!" That may have been a sin, but I'm not going to compound it by claiming that I had a more seemly reaction.

I admire people who achieve seemly reactions on their very first try.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:36 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Is it too much to hope that Margaret Thatcher will follow him?

(Sorry.)

I am deeply annoyed that he didn't get exactly what he deserved prior to his demise -- but then, so few of us do.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:42 AM by Charlie Stross

I wonder what happened when he got to the pearly gates and found out that God isn't a white male heterosexual Christian(ist). I can see another heart attack on the spot. Followed by a departure for someplace much warmer.

My regret is that his death was much more merciful than the one he seemed to desire for those with whom he disagreed.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:44 AM by P J Evans

Teresa,

You have to remember I've been out of the US for 14 years now. It's a lot more theoretical for me, a lot less in my face. And rejoicing in death just isn't my particular bent.

My failings lie elsewhere, and I will not confess them here.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:47 AM by abi

Charlie @53: given that the Falwell death caused my LJ friends-list to burst out in a veritable chorus of 'Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead', I think the immediate demise of Thatcher would cause me to go deaf.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:48 AM by Dorothy Rothschild

The impression I got on NPR this morning is that even those who agreed with his views had started to find him embarrassing.

My first reaction to his death was the uncharitable thought that it came at a point where he no longer wielded any real influence on the American Christian Conservative Movement. Perhaps I can rescue it with: What a shame that when he had considerable power to improve people's lives, he didn't.

I realize this all sounds very Spiderman. Obviously, as his life shows, despite having the means, he wasn't under any obligation to make the world a better place. No one is forced to. People do choose to for all sorts of reasons though. So I'm not condemning him. It's just that, in this case, it's a little sad.

(Imagine, for example, if he had said in the '80s that it is the right and Christian thing to do to take care of our poor, or to make sure everyone has access to competent, affordable health care?)

To drop several levels of importance, it's like listening to your public radio station all the time, having the means to contribute, then not contributing. You don't have to. Chances are really good the station will survive without your contribution, but it's just a little sad.

Also, it's totally possible that he honestly thought he was making the world a better place by systematically marginalizing those who didn't look or think like him. If so, it's too bad that he didn't take a look every once in a while to see how he well he was (or wasn't) doing on that whole world improvement thing.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:49 AM by JC

Teresa @ 52 -- my reaction was word-for-word the same. I felt guilty, but not too guilty.

Our toast over dinner yesterday evening was "To Jerry Falwell -- may he meet God."

And as I wrote to my mother, after a few minutes' reflection, "May he experience true forgiveness." It's what I hope for myself, so I can't really hope Falwell gets anything different.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:52 AM by Caroline

It simply wasn't soon enough.

Posted May 16, 2007 11:36 AM by Dave Kuzminski

#27 abi: As I said, I'm still young, and not dead yet. There is still time to turn to the Dark Side.

#28 Serge: No effing way. Never.

Serge, don't tempt fate! The better you are, the worse you get once your eyeballs change to a sinister color. Dark Abi's not a force I want to face.

If this sort of story-logic applied out in the world, then Falwell must have been a very, very good person sometime before he turned. Perhaps as a toddler.

Posted May 16, 2007 12:20 PM by Will A

While Falwell had lost some amount of influence in the country as a whole, the students at his "Liberty" University still seem very much in his vest pocket.

Falwell was nothing more than a mullah in a badly-fitting Western suit.

There was an almost "fair and balanced" obit of him in a legitimate newspaper - the Times (UK):

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article1795451.ece

Posted May 16, 2007 12:43 PM by Laurie D. T. Mann

One of my friends says that Falwell's death was typically reported as "Falwell is dead" rather than the more usual "X has died", and that this is a rather subtle way of being pleased. Has anyone noticed the difference of phrasing and if so, what do you think it means?

Posted May 16, 2007 12:59 PM by Nancy Lebovitz

I like how often it's thrown in that he was a "little man". It's still an insult that stings, somehow, however it's read.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:00 PM by Gursky

My feeling is pretty straightforward: the death of Falwell raises the decency quotient of the human race.

I respect the views of those who don't want to speak ill of the dead (since the dead can't reply), though I would ask them what they said on the death of Pol Pot (no, I'm not comparing Falwell to Pol Pot, just asking about the principle).

Posted May 16, 2007 1:17 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Will A #60: I have no doubt that Abi will be like Galadriel.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:20 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Nancy @62, I think your friend is full of it. Here are the headlines from the NY Times obituary page today:

• Jerry Falwell, Moral Majority Founder, Dies at 73
• Yolanda Denise King, Daughter of Rights Leader, Dies at 51
• Thomas Curry, 74, Officer Hit in Infamous Shooting, Dies
• Robert S. Oelman, 97, Chief Who Led NCR to Automation, Dies
• Kate Webb, War Correspondent, Dies at 64
• William Becker, 85, Creator of Concept of Motel 6 Chain, Dies
• Stanley Holden, 79, a Dancer and Prominent Ballet Teacher, Is Dead
• Bernard Gordon, Screenwriter, Dies at 88
• King Malietoa Tanumafili II of Samoa Dies at 94
• John K. Lattimer, Urologist of Varied Expertise, Dies at 92
• Leonard Eron, 87, Is Dead; Researcher on TV's Tie to Violent Conduct
• Alfred D. Chandler Jr., a Business Historian, Dies at 88
• Lesley Blanch, 102, a Writer and Traveler, Dies

All but two say "dies". The two that say "is dead" are both of people who were pretty obscure to be the focus of media bias.

The other newspapers I've looked at (Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, Newsday) just give names and descriptions in their obituary headlines.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:27 PM by Avram

He will be judged by his own vision of the Deus, as we each confront our own visions of what lies beyond the world at the end [1].

May his family and friends find peace with their grief. My sympathies go out to them at this time, for it cannot be easy for them. It's never pleasant to know someone you truly loved was disliked by the greater number of people who knew them, or knew of them[2]. May they be granted a measure of peace.

I find I hope his next life is happier than the past one must have been. It can't be pleasant to carry around so much hatred for others.

[1] Personal belief. No guarantees given that this will prove to be accurate, as so far, I appear to be immortal.
[2] Certainly my grandfather didn't enjoy his mother's funeral, particularly when all her grandchildren were swapping stories of what a cast-iron bitch she'd been during her lifetime.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:32 PM by Meg Thornton

Fragano @ 64

I guess the more mature and enlightened attitude to have on the death of someone like Pol Pot is, "Good thing he's gone and can't do any more damage; too bad he couldn't have been a decent human being". Maybe after a few more lifetimes I'll be that mature; it's not something I can muster when needed this time around.

Ever have to stomp a scorpion to keep it from stinging you? The relief at not having to undergo the resultant pain usually comes out in odd ways like "Serves you right, you evil little invertebrate!", when you know very well the scorpion is only doing what it's evolved to do. My reaaction to Falwell is a lot like that.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:33 PM by Bruce Cohen, SpeakerToManagers

Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) #68: The last time I stomped a scorpion to death it had already stung me (that taught me to shake out my shoes before putting them on).

The best I can say of Falwell is that I am no more happy at his death than I would be at the death of Robert Mugabe.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:41 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Avram @66 - I have to say I feel kinda sad about the death of the guy who started the Motel 6 chains. I have very fond memories of those, thanks to most of my vacations up to the age of 17 consisting of 'waking up real early and driving, stopping only occasionally'. Saw a hell of a lot of America that way, even if the accommodation all looked alike.

Posted May 16, 2007 1:56 PM by Dorothy Rothschild

#18 - David Bell, that's a fascinating idea... Actually, it's non-occurence is likely to be further proof of an observable assymetry: liberals are at some physical danger from some conservatives but there are very, very few documented cases of conservatives done to death by enraged liberals. I wonder why that is...

Posted May 16, 2007 2:01 PM by Henry Troup

I feel a bit like Auntie Em, at the moment, so I'll just quote a bit from the Toronto Star article:

Former president Jimmy Carter once said Falwell "in a very Christian way ... can go to hell."

I do think, apart from the ingrained teachings which keep me from rejoicing at my enemy's pain, that it's good to be reminded that evil men die in every generation, and are replaced in the next (although with new and different details).

Posted May 16, 2007 2:16 PM by JESR

Also, possibly, the coincident death of Yolanda King might be take as an opportunity to compare and contrast.

(Going now to see if I can wash off the passive voice).

Posted May 16, 2007 2:21 PM by JESR

Avram, 66: Stanley Holden died? Damn. Another great I'll never get to meet.

Posted May 16, 2007 2:23 PM by TexAnne

Avram, 66: Stanley Holden died? Damn. Another great I'll never get to meet.

Posted May 16, 2007 2:24 PM by TexAnne

Rats, sorry!

Posted May 16, 2007 2:27 PM by TexAnne

I made celebratory dead-patriarch cheesecake. It is delicious.

Posted May 16, 2007 3:08 PM by Betty

A couple random responses...
(1) The correct phrase to use for Falwell and his ilk is "radical cleric", no?
(2) I believe that #42 is a misunderstanding of Calvinist doctrine. It's not that you're saved or damned regardless of your actions and beliefs. You are free to do what you like and you are judged accordingly. It's just that any omniscience worth its salt includes perfect knowledge of the future. Maybe you don't know what kinds of sins you'll commit over the course of your life, but an omniscient being does.

Posted May 16, 2007 4:31 PM by Matt Austern

Matt, #78: A difference which makes no difference is no difference.

Posted May 16, 2007 5:42 PM by Lee

He so politicized and poisoned the Church that there are congregations who refuse to clothe the naked, cure the sick, succor the weak, shelter the homeless, feed the hungry, etc, for fear that they will be called "liberals."

Posted May 16, 2007 5:58 PM by Robert Glaub

Fragano @65
Does that mean I get to do the "All will love me and despair" bit? I love that speech.

But I'm not sure I'm Galadriel-scale. I think the best I get is "many will like me and be mildly glum".

Posted May 16, 2007 6:05 PM by abi

Abi #81: I think you underestimate yourself. And yes, you do get to do that bit.

Posted May 16, 2007 6:12 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Robert @ 80

Some churches may fear being called liberal for doing the right thing, but some won't do the right thing because he convinced them that money and power were more important in the Greater Scheme of Things. (When you get shown the cities of the world, and offered power over them, you're supposed to say 'no', and Falwell and Cheney and Rove didn't. 'By their works you shall know them.')

Posted May 16, 2007 6:20 PM by P J Evans

@#13, (also #3 and #8) in the interest of remembering everything he said (and did), he did change his mind on the issue of racial equality. He was one of the first white ministers to baptize and welcome black congregants. He is still an evil, dried up old turd, but he was willing to admit he was wrong on race, something my grandparents never did.

@78, re (2), that sounds more like Arminianism. They believe that to be saved, a person must have faith. A person can turn down salvation through their lack of faith (and the lack of faith can be shown by a person's actions)

Calvinists believe the people God picks to be saved will eventually have faith, they have no option to turn it down. Faith isn't a condition of salvation, its handed out by God as a means to be saved. No action can make someone elect or make them unelect. Their actions/belief are caused by their status of saved or not. (See "unconditional election" and "irresistible grace").

Posted May 16, 2007 6:33 PM by Matthew

abi... "many will like me and be mildly glum"

That sounds like something from the low-budget version of LoTR.

"Sorry, dear, but we've got funds just for one ring and one nazgul."

Posted May 16, 2007 6:35 PM by Serge

"Aren't those hobbits a little tall?"

"You're right. Guys, can you slouch down a bit more?"

Posted May 16, 2007 7:01 PM by abi

Oddly enough, I wasn't joyful, nor was I sad.

I couldn't, at first think of anything to say.

For irony, he had recently said he expected to be around for some time yet, as he had been praying to God for another 20 years to do His work.

Perhaps his prayer was answered.

I do think his ending is Shakespearean, in that the Evil men do lives after them, while the good is oft interred with their bones.

His embrace of blacks is going to be forgotten, and his continued questioning of the motives of those who were for civil rights will be cradled to the bosom of those who don't want to accept them as equals.

He did more than any other I can think of to make the present return to active religiosity in the public sphere, and his flavor of it is repellant.

But he's gonna be shocked, St. Peter is a Catholic. :)

More, as any impression of God I can keep is one whose love and mercy passeth all understanding, Falwell will be allowed into heaven.

If he can see it for heaven, for I can't really see any denied the presence of God, unless they deny it, so his fellow souls may cause him to think he is someplace else.

How violently he feels this may be the difference between Purgatory and Hell.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:07 PM by Terry Karney

"What about Gollum?"
"Use a sock puppet."

Posted May 16, 2007 7:08 PM by Serge

"Ysss, Prcs..."
"What's wrong with Gollum's dialogue?"
"He's been disemvowelled."
"Why?"
"Teresa doesn't like sock puppets."

Posted May 16, 2007 7:14 PM by abi

"What about the Riders of Rohan?"
"Borrow Susan's collection of My Little Poneys. Know anybody who has Cabbage Patch Dolls?"

Posted May 16, 2007 7:18 PM by Serge

"We've got the Lothlorien set together now. As soon as the extras arrive, we can start the scene."
"Hush. I'm on the phone."
"Right. But you should probably know there's some guy in white spangles and a huge collar wandering around the set singing about hound dogs."
"I know. I know...Hello! Is that Central casting? I said wanted elves. E...L...V...E...S. No, not IS. ES. Lots of them. In green. Pointy ears. Bows and arrows. What? No refunds? This is outrageous! Hello? Hello?"
"Hung up on you, did they?"
"Yeah."
"Look at the bright side."
"What?"
"The Return of the King will practically film itself."

Posted May 16, 2007 7:43 PM by abi

Omniscience is nice, but Omnipotence is the best of the Three Big O's. With Omnipotence, you can grant yourself the other two O's, or even create a rock so heavy you can't lift it, then change the rules of the universe so that you can lift it, then change the rules back to the way they were. It's a great paradox resolver. heh.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:46 PM by Earl Cooley III

For irony, he had recently said he expected to be around for some time yet, as he had been praying to God for another 20 years to do His work.

Perhaps his prayer was answered.

"God answers every prayer. Sometimes, the answer is 'No.'"

I have blogged. I am most thankful to this thread and Slacktivist's for giving me a maze of twisty passages, none alike, to enrich the bloggage. And I have attempted to perpetuate Andrew Plotkin's meme therein.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:50 PM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

abi at #89,

Splutter!

Posted May 16, 2007 7:52 PM by Linkmeister

Oh by the way, today on the radio:

All Things Considered, May 16, 2007 · David Kuo, the former deputy director of the office of faith-based community initiatives in the Bush administration, says that the Rev. Jerry Falwell's most enduring and most troubling legacy is that he almost single-handedly blurred the line between Christianity and conservative politics — to the detriment of both. Kuo is the author of Tempting Faith.

Posted May 16, 2007 7:57 PM by Linkmeister

You win, abi. Again, I am beaten by a girl. Oh, the shame, oh, the humiliation...

Posted May 16, 2007 8:07 PM by Serge

Beautiful and terrible as the dawn. Elvis serves her. All dispair.

Posted May 16, 2007 8:13 PM by Will A

Beautiful and terrible as the dawn. Elvis serves her. All dispair.

Posted May 16, 2007 8:13 PM by Will A

Oh who is that short sinner with the pudgy little face?
And what has he been after, that his end is in disgrace?
And wherefore is eternity, to which he'll relocate?
Oh, they're taking him to Hades for the fervor of his hate.

'Tis a shame to christianity, such awful hate as his,
Hating gays and civil liberties and women who use 'Ms.,'
Blaming victims for September, thinking schools should segregate.
Oh the fascist and abominable vigor of his hate.

Quite a deal of pains he'd taken to keep folk from getting laid,
Finding Tinky Winky suspect for his purple-colored shade,
Thinking AIDS the wrathful vengeance of a god always irate.
Maybe now he'll face some justice for the violence of his hate.

I do wonder what awaits him, buried under several feet.
Could be demons will torment him in the cold and in the heat.
Maybe nothingness surrounds him, and with time to ruminate
He can curse the god he dreamed up in the passions of his hate.

Posted May 16, 2007 8:15 PM by Will A

Abi at #89:
Oh, isn't that just Prrccsssss!

Posted May 16, 2007 8:19 PM by Adrian

Abi #s89 & 91: This is one film I definitely would love to see.

Posted May 16, 2007 8:39 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Let us also not forget that in 1985, after a visit to South Africa, Falwell urged his flock to buy Krugerrands to support the South African pigmentocracy.

(Which, at the time, was using the full powers of a police state to clamp down on the anti-apartheid movement, while assuring foreign audiences that the very word "apartheid" was passé and of course political reform would be coming Real Soon Now.)

Posted May 16, 2007 9:06 PM by Seth Gordon

Fragano @ 101... Maybe they could get Bruce Campbell. He is quite acquainted with fantasy, and he once played the King in Bubba O Tep (with Ossie Davis playing John Kennedy).

Posted May 16, 2007 9:26 PM by Serge

I can see that is is bad taste to rejoice in the death of another, but why is it morally wrong? I'm not seeing it.

(I smiled the day Milosovich died, myself)

Posted May 16, 2007 9:53 PM by Emma Anne

I just heard on PBS that when Pope Paul IV (founder of the Inquisition) died, Romans rioted in the streets in celebration, trashed the offices of the Inquisition, and dumped the Popehole's statue in the river.

Posted May 16, 2007 9:55 PM by Xopher

I found myself dissatisfied by Falwell's death. So many of his moral peers are still alive and doing such harm that the loss of his life hardly seems something of substance. When his ideology is dead, or at least pushed back into the crevices of our world, then perhaps I will feel that something good has happened.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:01 PM by Jonathan Cohen

abi, #81: "many will like me and be mildly glum"
You owe me a new keyboard!

Matthew, #84: My comment at #79 applies here as well. You're talking about the equivalent of a flowchart decision box from which both branches immediately reconverge.

Terry, #87: For irony, he had recently said he expected to be around for some time yet, as he had been praying to God for another 20 years to do His work.
Y'know, if I were the sort of person who believed in God-directed omens...
One does wonder how the people who do believe in God-directed omens can get so many events which (if one is of that mindset) are VERY CLEAR messages that God is Not Happy With You, and still utterly fail to take the point.

abi, #91: Tom Smith beat you to that joke about 15 years ago. Still funny, though!

Emma, #104: It's only morally wrong if you're a Christian yourself (or a follower of some other faith which specifically says so). Not that this has ever been known to stop Mssrs. Falwell & Robertson, or any of their followers.

Posted May 16, 2007 10:48 PM by Lee

When I heard that Falwell was dead, my first reaction was a mixture of relief and glee. My next thought was, "Uh oh, girl, you just added bigtime to whatever time in Purgatory you've already racked up."

But I am glad he's dead -- "he" being the Jerry Falwell persona who has been such a nexus of hate and viciousness and ugliness for so long. I don't mourn that persona, and I won't pray for him. But somewhere in the unknown and unknowable state between here and there is a lost, frightened being who was once the human Jerry Falwell, naked before his God, as I will be too, one day. Him I can pray for.

Posted May 16, 2007 11:43 PM by Lizzy L

#95. I really liked Kuo's commentary. Worth listening to.

Posted May 16, 2007 11:55 PM by Stefan Jones

Lee @107, not sure what you are flow charting... The difference between the two is choice. In the first example, salvation is dependant on two things: God, and your faith (which is optional). In the second example, salvation is dependant only on God.

Posted May 17, 2007 12:09 AM by Matthew

I just read on Shakesville that Fred Phelps and his flock are planning to picket Jerry Falwell's funeral.

*jaw dropping*

Posted May 17, 2007 1:05 AM by Lizzy L

Who said it: Hilter or Falwell?

Take the Quiz!

Posted May 17, 2007 1:35 AM by Stefan Jones

Stefan Jones @ 112... Hilter? Have you been channeling Monty Python's Flying Circus again? Anyway, this reminds me of the joke about Pat Buchanan.

"Did you you know that Pat Buchanan's father died in a concentration camp?"
"Really?"
"Really. He fell off his guard tower."

What's with Pat these days? (On second thought, forget I asked.)

Posted May 17, 2007 1:47 AM by Serge

abi @ 89, 91, et al

The only reason you don't owe me a new keyboard is that, while susceptible to coffee, it is imprevious to pretzels. On the other hand, the screen is a mess.

Posted May 17, 2007 2:42 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Lee @ 107

It's only morally wrong if you're a Christian yourself

Although I wasn't terribly clear about it, this is why I said, essentially, that for me it was a matter of spiritual enlightenment. Not being a Christian myself, the moral aspect actually didn't occur to me.

It's not so much that I'm any sort of practicing Buddhist as that I'm a follower of archy.

Posted May 17, 2007 2:51 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Serge @ 103

Much as I love "Bubba Hotep", I think Bruce Campbell is overkill for the low budget version of LOTR*. This should be made as a fanflick, like "Star Wreck". That way we can really have abi play Galadriel. I believe a budget of $11.98 should be sufficient, unless we, like, actually have to pay somebody.

* I'm talking really low-rent here. All we can afford is a naz.

Posted May 17, 2007 3:19 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

I submitted a comment a little while ago, and just realized it must have had a very bogus url in it. Here's what it should have been:

Lee @ 107

It's only morally wrong if you're a Christian yourself

Which is why I said before that it was a matter of spiritual enlightenment for me, as in "many more lifetimes to go." Not being a Christian, the moral aspect didn't occur to me.

Not that I'm any sort of practicing Buddhist as that I'm a follower of archy

Posted May 17, 2007 3:29 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Lee @107
Actually, I was so busy stealing the first half of that joke from a British Yellow Pages ad (one man shows up in green to a party filled with people dressed as Elvis, says defensively, "Well, my invite clearly said elves!"), I didn't research whether any else had done the Return of that particular King.

Posted May 17, 2007 3:49 AM by abi

Matthew, #110: I may have become confused trying to track the conversation back thru the comments. My point is that as long as you're ultimately talking about predestination, it doesn't matter what the details are. If you were talking about something else, then I withdraw my comment.

Posted May 17, 2007 3:53 AM by Lee

Serge #103: Another film to look for!

Posted May 17, 2007 7:57 AM by Fragano Ledgister

I told my partner that I read he had died, and that I had to admit that my first thought wasn't charitable.

she said, "My second and third thoughts weren't charitable, either."

When a man has condemned all you are and encourages others to do the same, and then wraps his bigoted opinion up in so called holy writ, it's hard not to be a little glad he isn't able to bellow his ignorance and hatred anymore. In the end we both agreed that it's a good thing we're not in charge of the afterlife.

'Now at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death.'
'Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.'

('All right then,' said Frodo, 'But I still would like to give the asshole a good punch in the teeth.'
'Well,' Gandalf agreed, 'In that case, I'd be glad to give you a boost.')

Posted May 17, 2007 9:44 AM by L.S. Baird

Fragano @ 119... Actually, the premise Based on a story by Joe Lansdale) of Bubba O Tep was funnier than the actual film. I mean, a story about an old-folks home where one person says he's Elvis, an old black man maintains he himself is John Kennedy, and that there is a soul-sucking mummy in the basement, and it all turns to be true...

Posted May 17, 2007 9:59 AM by Serge

'All right then,' said Frodo, 'But I still would like to give the asshole a good punch in the teeth'.

-- Shepherd, isn't the Bible kind of specific about killing?

-- Very specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzy around the area of kneecaps.

Posted May 17, 2007 10:34 AM by ajay

"All will love me and despair."

Posted May 17, 2007 10:37 AM by Serge

This discussion is certainly getting interesting! Particular kudos to abi -- and the ones who egged her on -- for the funny bits. (But if you rile her, is the result Nightmare Abi?)

As for Falwell, when I stomp the occasional bug in my kitchen, I inwardly declare "May you go to a better place." Not sure I could wish that for him, without a lot of karmic scrubbing first.

Posted May 17, 2007 10:55 AM by Faren Miller

Faren @ 124... Nightmare Abi? Somebody call Doctor Strange, quick!

Posted May 17, 2007 11:00 AM by Serge

Faren @124
It was a fun collaboration. I don't think I've ever ended up in keyboard debt before.

But if you rile her, is the result Nightmare Abi?
No. The last time I was really, really angry - about a year and a half ago - I just got very, very quiet and very, very still. Somehow the precise, careful way I phrased my deliberately innocuously comments was a little alarming.

Confirmed grumps came by to have their usual rants, took one look at me, and walked away.

But seriously. Overall, I think that this is the best way to deal with this matter. If we are alive so long as we are remembered, let's forget him. If he spread hate, let's laugh instead.

Posted May 17, 2007 11:19 AM by abi

Lee@107: Tom Smith beat you to that joke about 15 years ago

What we have here is melancholy elephants

Posted May 17, 2007 11:45 AM by Greg London

Isn't the proper Latin plural of Elvis actually Elves?

That leads to such a trainwreck of mental images that I'm not sure I can even begin to describe them.

Posted May 17, 2007 12:31 PM by Caroline

Serge #121: I'll take your word for it.

Posted May 17, 2007 12:44 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Fragano @ 129... Trust me on that one. (Yes, Tania, in spite of my liking Wing Commander.)

Posted May 17, 2007 12:52 PM by Serge

#87 you said, "But he's gonna be shocked, St. Peter is a Catholic. :"

Not half as shocked as he's gonna be when he finds out Jesus is a dark-skinned, Jew.

Posted May 17, 2007 1:29 PM by WordMan

And, WordMan @131, since there were those undocumented years between childhood, death and resurrection, and since there was no recorded marriage and only rumors about a liaison with Mary Magdalene (hush, Yvonne Elliman!)...

(This possibly blasphemous thought brought to you by Folgers coffee.)

Posted May 17, 2007 2:04 PM by Linkmeister

And this Pagan/Buddhist will lapse into the King James Version:

"In my father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you..."

That said, I can't say I'm sorry he's gone. If that makes me a bad person, I'm sure I'll eventually pay the karmic debt.

Posted May 17, 2007 2:31 PM by Lori Coulson

And this Pagan/Buddhist will lapse into the King James Version:

"In my father's house are many mansions. If it were not so, I would have told you..."

That said, I can't say I'm sorry he's gone. If that makes me a bad person, I'm sure I'll eventually pay the karmic debt.

Posted May 17, 2007 2:32 PM by Lori Coulson

Caroline @ 128: Pratchett used a similar line as a running gag in Soul Music: "He looks... Elvish."

Posted May 17, 2007 3:31 PM by Joel Polowin

Caroline @128
I always thought it was Elivides, but I can't explain why. Some sort of third declension Greek noun.

Posted May 17, 2007 4:07 PM by abi

Farren @ #124
My personal mantra when I kill bugs is "Wrong form, try again".

I hope Falwell has 1000 incarnations as a cockroach.

Posted May 17, 2007 4:47 PM by Magenta Griffith

Faren 124: As for Falwell, when I stomp the occasional bug in my kitchen, I inwardly declare "May you go to a better place."

I just say "Kali Om."

Posted May 17, 2007 5:46 PM by Xopher

L.S. Baird @ 120: I don't know what I would do if I were in charge of the afterlife. Probably poll all the poor, queer, and non-white Americans I could find. Or just, as one of my friends suggested, reincarnate him as a poor, queer, non-white American woman like her. (She added that if it meant he was exposed to the forces she'd seen in her own development, Falwell-reincarnate might just be inspired to right his past wrongs.)

It's a very abstract question, though. I'm never going to be in charge of the afterlife, as far as I know.

I do think he's in Hell, for reasons of the afterlife being a product of what you've spent your life thinking about and working towards it being. (This is, I believe, iterated by Terry Pratchett, but I know I've seen it somewhere else, too.) Few have ever donated so much of their energy to the idea of the Christian Hell. Imagine Phelps' surprise... he is one of the others who've done that.

abi @ 89: You win the Internet.

Posted May 17, 2007 6:07 PM by A.J. Luxton

AJ Luxton @139
Do I have to pay tax on that?

Posted May 17, 2007 6:26 PM by abi

Abi @ 140
Yes... in this case, it's a syntax.

Posted May 17, 2007 7:33 PM by Rick Owens

I cannot celebrate the death of another person. I must say that I have split feelings on this: on one hand, I am utterly grateful that he is no longer going to be spewing his message of hate. But I am very sorry that it took death to do it and that he did not learn and repent of his words and actions in his lifetime.

We need the low-budget LOTR. YouTube it!

Posted May 17, 2007 8:03 PM by Sisuile

I've been feeling kind of disappointed in his death--that is to say, that he never stopped being hateful. As long as he was alive, there was a chance (however slim) that he would repudiate his earlier nastiness. Now, though we don't know whether people change after death or not, we won't get to see him turn around here.

But I'm glad evil men don't live forever.

Posted May 17, 2007 8:45 PM by Nenya

A.J. Luxton @139 -

I conclude that in Discworld, the afterlife is a combination of what you believe and what you deserve. So, yeah, hell. Or purgatory for a good long time, anyway.

Posted May 17, 2007 9:23 PM by Emma Anne

Sisuile @ 142... We need the low-budget LOTR. YouTube it!

Well, there certainly is enough talent in these parts that it could be made. Of course abi would have to play Galadriel. The very idea reminds me of a film adaptation I once saw of Tom Stoppard's Fifteen-minute Hamlet. Yes, think of the whole plot of that play compressed within 15 minutes and acted out by, to put it generously, very amateurish RenFaire players. Then the lights come on in the movie room and Shakespeare himself is beind the projector, and groans when his noble sponsor asks for further cuts. Which result in the 5-minute Hamlet.

Posted May 17, 2007 11:23 PM by Serge

Will A. @ #99: Bravo!

Posted May 18, 2007 12:34 AM by Allan Beatty