1fg: Nov'f qbhoyr qnpgly
2aq: Puevf l'f ivyynaryyr
3eq: Rguna'f fbaarg
4gu: Qropun'f unvxh
5gu: Oehpr Pbura(FcrnxreGbZnantref)'f yvzrevpx

^^

(probably got something wrong somewhere and making fool of self, but eh)

Posted August 18, 2007 6:57 PM by KristianB

Is this Open Thread 90?

Posted August 18, 2007 6:57 PM by Xopher

Should I perhaps have put that in rot13, by the way? Fool of self made...

Posted August 18, 2007 7:04 PM by KristianB

This is just to say
that I have shattered the logic puzzle
you put up on your blog.

I am sorry,
it was so Aristotelian
honest and cold.

Posted August 18, 2007 7:05 PM by Fragano Ledgister

I get the same answer as KristianB.

I would note that lines 7 through 10 of the puzzle are not required for the solution. Lines 1 through 6 are enough to solve it.

Derek.

Posted August 18, 2007 7:07 PM by Derek Tattersall

Whoohoo! I may not be right, but I'm wrong in company.

Posted August 18, 2007 7:16 PM by Diatryma

I get the same solution, except that the facts aren't consistent: How can the haiku be a witty response to the villanelle when debcha had hoped to post first?

Posted August 18, 2007 7:51 PM by aquaeri

[not looking at other answers before posting]

1. nov cbfgrq gur qbhoyr qnpgly
2. puevf l cbfgrq gur ivyynaryyr
3. rguna cbfgrq gur fbaarg
4. qropun cbfgrq gur unvxh
5. Oehpr cbfgrq gur yvzrevpx

Posted August 18, 2007 7:53 PM by Mary Aileen

Higgledy Piggledy
Kristian Melvin* B
Posted the logical
Answer so fast!

Yet, inconceivably,
No Williams parody?
Suspension of disbelief
Gone here at last...

-----
* I needed a middle name. What can you do?

Posted August 18, 2007 7:56 PM by abi

I don't care who wrote what or in which order; I want to read that thread.

Posted August 18, 2007 7:57 PM by Steven Brust

aquaeri: Because although Debcha had hoped to post first, she didn't. She posted fourth. (See clue #9.)

Posted August 18, 2007 8:00 PM by elissa

Thanks! Solved.

elissa: But she was writing it in response, and a first post isn't a response, and a response isn't a first post. How could she have intended a response to be the first post?

Not all the clues were necessary to solving, but they helped me see I'd got it right, as they were in agreement with what I put down.

Posted August 18, 2007 8:06 PM by Kip W

I think aquaeri's point is that "hoped to post first" carries an implicature that she hoped to post that poem first, which isn't possible if it was a response to an earlier one. But you often have to restrict yourself to entailment in logic puzzles, and it's not a very strong implicature to begin with.

Posted August 18, 2007 8:12 PM by Tim May

I read it that Debcha wanted to post first, just to be first, but by the time she read the thread someone else had posted first. So she read the thread, and composed a response. If she'd gotten there early enough she would have composed a completely different post.

Posted August 18, 2007 9:07 PM by NelC

Derek #5: Really? I didn't need 7, 9, nor 11, but I did find 8 and 10 to be useful. Did you assume 4 meant "without gaps"?

Posted August 18, 2007 9:08 PM by Konrad

First post denied me!
Like Chris, I think fair trade for
dactylic Abi.

Because it's not enough to have poetry and pastiches all over the place, we must also have talking about poetry and pastiches, and now speculation about the content of an imaginary poem posted in response to another imaginary poem. Debcha, I am sure mine is not as good a response as the one the imaginary (or real) you would have produced, but it is something.

Posted August 18, 2007 9:22 PM by Diatryma

I had no clue how to do these puzzles until about 10 years ago when they used them at the Junior high where I taught. (I learned how to do them in self defense, I can't have students knowing more than I do.) Our test scores improved. I'm not sure this was one of the reasons, but I suspect it had something to do with it.

Posted August 18, 2007 9:24 PM by Gigi Rose

Konrad #15: I'm not Derek, but I definitely made that assumption. It doesn't appear to be wrong.

Gigi Rose #17: Is there a particular technique that one should use to solve these things besides putting the position of each element on paper? I'm usually not good at logic puzzles; I'd love to know if there's some method I should be applying.

Posted August 18, 2007 9:36 PM by Jeff Davis

I told myself I wasn't going to sit down and work it out.

Of course I had to sit down and work it out.

(Got the same answers everyone else seems to have.)

Posted August 18, 2007 9:41 PM by Janni

Konrad @ 15:
#8 is definitely redundant, given #1.[*] I know that I made use of 7, 9, and 10, but there could be some redundancy elsewhere I didn't notice. (And, for what it's worth, I didn't assume that 4 meant "without gaps.")

[*] Unless it was intended that "particularly witty" should be a clue... but that's not how these puzzles work.

Posted August 18, 2007 9:43 PM by Peter Erwin

Jeff at 18, I was taught to draw a grid for simple ones-- name and poem only-- and then a more complex one for ones like this. It's three grids together in a corner-L shape. Across the top I have position and poem, running vertically I have name and poem, and I just fill in Xs and Os as I go through the clues. I'm not sure how I'd lay out a more complex one, like if we'd had to handle the subject of the poem as well.

Posted August 18, 2007 9:50 PM by Diatryma

abi 9: You needed a middle name?

Posted August 18, 2007 9:56 PM by Xopher

Same answer here, too. (And I didn't look. Really. )

Posted August 18, 2007 10:02 PM by Jon Meltzer

Bibbedy bobbedy
Dutch transplant abi
responds to the thread with some
pleading for plums.

Fluorosphereifically
Icebox is opened; "i'm
inside ur kitchen, and
pwnin ur crumbs."

*ducks*

Posted August 18, 2007 10:02 PM by Nomie

Abi @9: You could have my middle name, I don't use it much, but it wouldn't fit.

Generally: Since this is an open thread, does anyone know anything about Maum Meditation? Specifically the organisation?

Posted August 18, 2007 10:05 PM by NelC

"Walter Carlos Williams" was, of course, later known as Wendy Carlos Williams, following metrical reassignment surgery.

Jim was probably thinking of someone else.

Posted August 18, 2007 10:05 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Lovely. Been a while since I've had to grid one of those out.

I once got away with writing a poem instead of an essay— for a poetry class, natch. The trick is to know that the professor will be impressed instead of annoyed, especially as a poem on the definition of poetry, improvised, is not likely to be much good.

I wish I had that poem. It would be good for a laugh.

Posted August 18, 2007 10:20 PM by B. Durbin

Derek et al: I thought I'd needed #7 and 9, but I tried it again with just 1-6 and got the same solution.. I didn't assume that 4 meant without gaps.

Posted August 18, 2007 10:21 PM by Michael

PNH@26: "Walter Carlos Williams" was, of course, later known as Wendy Carlos Williams, following metrical reassignment surgery.

I prefer her solo poetry to the poetry she wrote with the Plasmatics.

Posted August 18, 2007 10:28 PM by Michael

Got it. I hate logic puzzles, but this one was too much fun to pass up.

Posted August 18, 2007 10:45 PM by Lizzy L

Then, of course, there was Wendy Melvin Donaldson, who wrote about an alternate universe where Iraq planned 9/11.

Posted August 18, 2007 10:47 PM by Xopher

KristianB solved
the logic puzzle
that he found
in your blog.

You were probably expecting
people to take longer
and argue
the validity of syllogism

Please forgive him
he solved it
so quickly
and properly.

Posted August 18, 2007 11:08 PM by -dsr-

Oh, I love these! I just got in, but I couldn't resist. ROT 13'd for any other latecomers...

Svefg: nov jvgu gur qbhoyr qnpgly.
Frpbaq: puevf l jvgu gur ivyynaryyr.
Guveq: rguna jvgu gur fbaarg.
Sbhegu: qropun jvgu gur unvxh.
Svsgu: Oehpr Pbura jvgu gur yvzrevpx.

Posted August 18, 2007 11:10 PM by Will "scifantasy" Frank

1: Nov, jvgu gur Qbhoyr Qnpgly
2: Puevf, jvgu gur Ivyynaryyr
3: Rguna, jvgu gur Fbaarg
4: Qropun, jvgu gur Unvxh
5: Oehpr, jvgu gur Yvzrevpx

Posted August 18, 2007 11:11 PM by Betsey Langan

Patrick @ #26:

This is just to say
I have excised the plums
that were in my...

oh, never mind.

Posted August 18, 2007 11:29 PM by Chris Clarke

Oh! I have something to contribute to a Making Light thread!

Diatryma @ 21, your system extends neatly. Just tack the new category to the end horizontally, and tuck it in the middle vertically. My attempt at an ascii illustration was woeful, but I'm sure a nearby newsagent will sell Puzzle books with examples, which is where I learned it. Come to that, I'm sure Google can find examples. Alas I'm stuck at work, or I'd look them up.

Posted August 18, 2007 11:41 PM by myrthe

I cannot help but link to this XKCD cartoon.

Posted August 18, 2007 11:42 PM by Mary Dell

I thought Walter Carlos Williams wrote those Dread Empire's Plums books. I devoured the first two--they were really cool!

Posted August 18, 2007 11:45 PM by TexAnne

Diatryma @ 21 (and myrthe @ 36): Ah, like this.

Further poking about on the interwebs returns the Zebra Puzzle, a six-dimensional logic puzzle attributed variously to Einstein and Lewis Carroll. I'm scared to try it.

Posted August 19, 2007 12:09 AM by Jeff Davis

1. nov, gur qbhoyr qnpgly
2. puevf l, gur ivyynaryyr
3. rguna, gur fbaarg
4. qropun, gur unvxh
5. Oehpr Pbura (FcrnxreGbZnantref), gur yvzrevpx

Posted August 19, 2007 12:10 AM by Evelyn Browne

Oh, dear. I should have rot-13ed that, shouldn't I?

Posted August 19, 2007 12:12 AM by Evelyn Browne

William, and Walter, and Wendy have nothing to do with the case.
The creation of verse in the threads we traverse
helps keep Making Light our own place.
Pastiches will keep us amused,
and puzzles will sharpen our brains.
The words that we write on this blog day and night,
are as dear as the blood in our veins.

Posted August 19, 2007 12:19 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

qbhoyr qnpgly - Nov
ivyynaryyr - Puevf
fbaarg - Rguna
unvxh - Qropun
yvzrevpx - Oehpr

A few of those clues didn't really take me anywhere, though, so I might be missing something.

Posted August 19, 2007 12:46 AM by julia

I agree that the latter 4 clues were unnecessary. My method of just drawing up a list and slotting the poems and authors in when I was sure of them worked well enough here, but would probably break down (into the grid, if further structure can be called a break down) as more items were added to the initial puzzle.

Posted August 19, 2007 1:56 AM by Gursky

(I apologize in advance if I guessed anyone's sex wrong.)

A Making Light poster named abi
Had a dactl that wasn't too shabby
Said she: "This is no trouble!
Why, I'll make it a double!"
Then posted it, quick as a tabby

Chris Y took a bit of a chance:
He composed in a form fancy-schmanced.
"Of this ball, I'll be belle,
With my fine villanelle!"
Said Chris Y, just before being pantsed.

Then ethan composed us a sonnet:
It was hard work, and he got right on it
Such extravaganzas
Of well-crafted stanzas!
We all wished that *we* could've done it.

Now Debcha felt slightly morose:
"I tried to be quick, not verbose,
For writing haikus
Takes a short-winded muse,
But still I'm in fourth! Well, 'twas close."

And finally there was Bruce Cohen
Whose limericks are widely-known
For hilarious rhyme
And for scansion sublime--
Shitloads better, I'd say, than my own.

Posted August 19, 2007 2:20 AM by Evan

Actually, I've sort of been hoping for an open thread to mention two things, so I'll pretend we're just treating this as such. The words are used in the original post, after all. With no gaps, either.

First, I tried Mimolette for the first time this week. They have a bunch at Gourmet Garage right now. It was great, except persistent thought of tiny red hexapods scurrying across my gums.

Second, I've been thinking of putting up a desert-themed display in the bookstore's F/SF section. Does anyone have any suggestions?
So far I may use:
Dune
Sandworms of Dune
Acacia
A Canticle for Leibowitz
The Temptation of Saint Anthony (gothic fantasy of the highest order)
Soldier of Sidon
That cyberpunk novel that Tor reprinted a year or two ago, set in a future Norther Africa, if I can ever find it on my shelf and order a few copies.

A standing rule seems to be that I'm considering a desert to be a biome, the "bio-" root being the key point. Thus extraterrestrial deserts are no problem. Nor, clearly, are post-apocalyptic wastelands. All standard lunar deserts are. I've also decided to exclude all martian settings, whether full of flora or not. There are just too many of them, and I want these deserts to feel hot. Given all that, if anyone has a good book or two that I should be sure to include, I 'd love the help.

Posted August 19, 2007 2:25 AM by Gursky

Woo-hoo, a logic puzzle! I love these. I used to play on a site called chatgames.com that had them weekly, but they don't any more.

I got the same answers as everyone else, and I concur that clues 7-10 are unnecessary. (And no, I didn't assume that #4 meant "in a row".)

Jeff Davis@39: Thanks for that link. I can tell that's going to waste a bunch of my time in the near future. :-)

Posted August 19, 2007 2:32 AM by David Goldfarb

That last post was missing a key preposition and article in there.

Apologies mistake y'all.

Posted August 19, 2007 2:34 AM by Gursky

Evan @ 45

Thank you for the compliment.

Posted August 19, 2007 2:36 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Wow, I haven't done logic puzzles like these in simply ages. Got the same answers as everyone else, by means of making a column for names and one for poem-types, and slotting them in when sure. Surprised at how easy it was.

And I did assume that #4 meant "without anything inbetween". Now I see that I shouldn't have done (although I got the right answer).

Posted August 19, 2007 3:20 AM by Nenya

Dang it, I missed out on the fun. I love puzzles, and I did take the time to figure it out before I read comments.

Gursky - books that have deserts* as a primary residence that come to mind:

Chaz Brenchley's Outremer
Melanie Rawn's Dragon series
CJ Cherryh's Faded Sun novels (Serge, am I remembering this correctly? I haven't read the Faded Sun books in a looong time. I associate them with deserts)
Alan Dean Foster's Pip & Flinx book Reunion

I've got a few others ideas rolling around in the back of my brain, but I am going to bed. I'll see if the unconscious/subconscious/not-tired brain floats the other titles to the surface.

*I initially read desserts and was wondering how Dune related to tasty snacks. Sandworm Surprise? Bene Gessarit Biscotti? Arrakis Cobbler? Then I came to my senses.

Posted August 19, 2007 3:37 AM by Tania

Bruce, of the Cohen clan,
(Speaker to Managers)
Writing a limerick,
said to his friends:

"Wouldn't the blog be more
illuminatory
if we wrote poetry?"
(Here the tale ends.)

Posted August 19, 2007 6:06 AM by candle

Higgledy Piggledy
Abigail Sutherland:[*]
amateur poet (as
everyone knows).

We should encourage her
enthusiastically:
amateur nothing, she's
up with the prose!

[*] I know "Abigail" is all kinds of wrong, but the scansion! The scansion!

Posted August 19, 2007 6:17 AM by candle

candle @53
I know "Abigail" is all kinds of wrong

Not in the slightest. I answer to both Abi and Abigail in RL*. Abi just takes less time to type, and after the curious incident in the Spanish class**, has become my nom de note et net.

but the scansion! The scansion!
The bells! The bells! (Agreed)

-----
* Except when the Dutch pronounce it. "ai" is not a diphthong in Dutch, so they pronounce it "Abigah-el", and I don't recognise it as my name. I'm almost tempted to change the spelling to "Abigeel" to get them to say it right‡, but I think I'll just go to Abi.

** OK, the incident wasn't really that curious, but you are now, aren't you?†

‡ Right for values of "makes me look up from my work", not in some Platonic abstract sense of rightness.

† And, sorry, you're going to have to stay that way. It's not worth explaining.

Posted August 19, 2007 6:26 AM by abi

Lizzy L said @ 30:
Got it. I hate logic puzzles, but this one was too much fun to pass up.

That's kind of my feeling about them. I find it easier to solve logic puzzles if they deal with something intrinsically interesting[*]. In one sense, that goes against the point of logic puzzles -- ideally, one should reduce them to a set of purely abstract entities and relations -- but there are only so many times you can contemplate re-arranging entities A, B, C, D, E.

[*] I remember two logic puzzles in particular from when I took the GRE's: one dealt with arranging different kinds of power tools along a bench, the other with arranging different kinds of books along a bookshelf. The former was tedious; the latter was easy, since it was something I could imagine doing for fun....

Posted August 19, 2007 6:28 AM by Peter Erwin

Walter Carlos Williams was the poet's evil twin;
He wasn't a physician and he didn't just stay in.
No, Walter, he took passage on a ship bound for Belize,
And asked how he would live his life, he answered "As I please."

He thrilled to eating hardtack and the sound of native drums
And he didn't have an icebox and he didn't care for plums.
He never saw a barrow, whether black or white or red,
And he never saw New Jersey, and before long he was dead.

His life was all ideas, and it wasn't much in things:
But William stayed at home. I wonder why the caged bird sings?

Posted August 19, 2007 6:34 AM by candle

abi @ 54... the curious incident in the Spanish class

Sounds like the title of a mystery novel. Hmm... Spanish... When I think of you and of Spain, I am reminded of the time you went for that drastic way not to have to shave your legs ever again.

Posted August 19, 2007 7:13 AM by Serge

Thanks for this! I used to love doing these as a child - they came in books with the grids laid out so you could keep crossing off the impossibles unlit, voila!, the correct answers are left. Ages since I did one though.For this one I just wrote the negatives down in a Notepad document until I got the order of poems, then of people. As other have noted, clues 1-6 were all that was needed.

Gursky @ 46 Re. desert-themed books, off the top of my head:
Hammerfall (C.J. Cherryh)
Sword-Dancer (Jennifer Roberson)
There's lots of Arabian-themed fantasy around which might fit the bill - particulars can be supplied if requred.

Posted August 19, 2007 8:38 AM by dcb

Gursky @46:

That cyberpunk novel that Tor reprinted a year or two ago, set in a future Norther Africa, if I can ever find it on my shelf and order a few copies.

When Gravity Fails, by George Alec Effinger? I shall have to get a new copy myself.

Posted August 19, 2007 8:51 AM by NelC

Gursky@46: Are you thinking of When Gravity Fails? There were a few more in the series, including one where the lead is dumped in the Rub' al-Khali (the Arabian peninsula's Empty Quarter), which is about as desert as it gets. IIRC, Liz Williams's City of Bones qualifies if you're allowing cities surrounded by desert and I haven't confused it with another of hers.
Also: Dry Water (Eric Nylund) and Child of a Rainless Year (Jane Lindskjold) -- the desert is perhaps not the main theme, but is a dominating presence in the towns where the stories happen. Nylund may be OOP (~9 years old), but the Lindskjold is recent and IMO her best yet. (Her two Athanor books are set in Santa Fe et al but IIRC aren't strongly desert-connected.)
Tania is correct about The Faded Sun, but I have no idea where you'd find it; Hammerfall is relatively recent, and the jacket says it's set on a desert world, but I haven't read it yet.

Posted August 19, 2007 9:21 AM by CHip

Abi #54: 'Abigeel;' dat is de geel Abi.......

Posted August 19, 2007 9:37 AM by Fragano Ledgister

More desert books: Mercedes Lackey's pink dragon books (Joust et al) are set in a semi-Egypt. Lindskold has The Buried Pyramid, set in the real one. The argument could be made that Left Hand of Darkness is a cold desert, but that may work better for a 'books that make you feel cold in August'.

Posted August 19, 2007 9:43 AM by Diatryma

Tania @ 51

Then I came to my senses.

Such a shame. I think you were on to something there. How about Death By Fedaykin? Maud' Dib Mousse? Corrino Crumble?

Posted August 19, 2007 9:48 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

CHip, 60: The City of Bones you described is by Martha Wells (not to be confused with Cassandra Claire's YA book of the same name, which looks awful IMO). Liz Williams did Banner of Souls and Empire of Bones.

Posted August 19, 2007 10:49 AM by TexAnne

Gursky @46

A recent cheese discovery here is Taleggio. We've taken to calling it apple butter. It was Meant to be smeared on slices of tart apple.

Posted August 19, 2007 10:55 AM by Mark Wise

Soo Soo Soufflé? Liet-Kynes Lite Kandy? Pre-Spice Parfait? Harkonnen Halvah?

Posted August 19, 2007 11:02 AM by Xopher

Tania@51: I initially read desserts and was wondering how Dune related to tasty snacks.

Doon. Arruckus. Dessert Planet.

Elias Weiner's classic should be added to the desert books list. :)

Posted August 19, 2007 11:11 AM by Michael

abi @ 54

"* Except when the Dutch pronounce it. "ai" is not a diphthong in Dutch, so they pronounce it "Abigah-el", and I don't recognise it as my name. I'm almost tempted to change the spelling to "Abigeel" to get them to say it right‡, but I think I'll just go to Abi"

Odd. I've always said "Abigah-el" and the closest I've ever been to the Netherlands was 30K up. Any other PNWers do the same, or is this just another Margaret linguistic oddity?

Posted August 19, 2007 11:27 AM by Margaret Organ-Kean

A day and a half later (I hate being away from the computer!) I got the same answer. It took me a little longer than it should have*, I think because I was assuming that the sonnet couldn't possibly have been me, seeing as I'm pretty sure I couldn't write one if the 2008 election depended on it.

Oh, and speaking of Walter/Wendy Carlos, she's from Rhode Island, which is yet another reason that it's the Best Damn State in the countryworld.

Gursky #46: Great, now I can't shake the feeling of "tiny red hexapods scurrying across my gums." Yick.

*That's not where the day and a half came from. I swear. It didn't take that long.

Posted August 19, 2007 11:36 AM by ethan

I enjoy these kinds of logic puzzles.

No I didn't start out assuming that #4 meant no gaps. But, with the other clues, 1-3,5,6 - it leaves only one spot the Villanelle could be in.

Derek

Posted August 19, 2007 12:16 PM by Derek Tattersall

Speaking of logic puzzles (and the newly-refurbished title of this post), the BBC is reporting on the "least believable on-screen romances" here.

Number one: Natalie Portman and Hayden Christensen - Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones

Posted August 19, 2007 2:37 PM by Linkmeister

Michael @ #67: That is perfect!! How on earth have I missed this classic parody?

Gursky - I thought of one more:

Emma Bull's Territory - takes place in Tombstone, AZ.

Posted August 19, 2007 2:58 PM by Tania

Looking for people knowledgeable about the ins & outs of mp3/ID3 headers.

I'm testing a new toy which is supposed to help me archive my EXTENSIVE cassette-tape collection to CD and MP3 formats. The problem I'm having is that Nero (which I'm using to create the CDs) doesn't play nicely with the .wav tracks I've created, and iTunes doesn't play nicely with the .mp3 extractions of them. In the latter case, tracks play in what appears to be a completely random order, even though the list appears in the order I want them to play.

I suspect that I need to follow a specific format when I name the tracks, but I can't find anything with Google that will tell me exactly what that format is. My partner suggests that it's a hyphen-delimited string along the lines of track#-artist-album-title-genre; does that sound right?

Posted August 19, 2007 3:10 PM by Lee

Gursky @46,

Robert's Salt fits the desert classification.
McHugh's Necropolis might- someone who's read it more recently...?

Abi @54 re Abi @OT89.809 on deserts and noise.

This is desert, filled with complex ecology and long history.

and this is the dry dead bed of a lake 20,000 years gone. Not that it isn't good for solitude, but name aside, it isn't at all like the various National Park deserts of the west and southwest here.

(But today, 120 hours away from heading out there, I'm near-incapable of thinking bad things about Burning Man*. I should stop writing about it.)

-----
* other than finding their "Green Man" theme for this year to be quite funny. Old NorthWest Europe mythology, fine. But 'green'? When one art project is going to burn 2.4 Gigawatts of energy in 1 minute? Even with the carbon credits, Oy.

Posted August 19, 2007 3:21 PM by kathryn from Sunnyvale

Kathryn @74
I'm simply noise intolerant. That's just a part of my makeup. It's not a criticism of Burning Man.

When I say I don't regret not going because of the noise, that means that apart from noise I greatly regret the low probability that I will ever go.

Not criticism. Just sour grapes, Aesop style.

(And yes, the deserts I love are the California deserts; the high desert around Bridgeport - particularly Bodie - and the low desert of the Eureka Valley*. I tend to prefer BLM land to National Parks land, just because it's a little less managed.)

------
* Or, for the full on clothing optional hot springs in the desert experience, the neighbouring Saline Valley.

Posted August 19, 2007 4:10 PM by abi

Grids appear to mess things up/make them harder for me. I end up drawing digraphs with blank spots, just the sort of thing I do when plotting, outlining, or doing anything else with a not-quite-yet fixed order. (Sort of state diagrams without loops.)

I hadn't had any kind of approach at all until I decided to take the LSAT, at which point the not-so-good results on that section in the GRE suggested I get a prep book and get myself around some sort of method. Then I found that the suggested thingy only worked about a third of the time, but my own thing worked quite well. I figured I wasn't being graded on how I solved the problems, only *if* I solved them, so ...

Posted August 19, 2007 4:48 PM by joann

Diatryma #62: The argument could be made that Left Hand of Darkness is a cold desert, but that may work better for a 'books that make you feel cold in August'.

What I call "window into winter" books. (Like the "door into summer", only the reverse.)

Posted August 19, 2007 4:50 PM by joann

Lee @ 73 -- I'm fairly obses^H^H^H^H^H knowledgeable on ID3 tags and use iTunes, but don't know Nero. I'm missing an important step in your process.

As I understand it, you're
1. somehow making WAV files from casettes
2. burning those as audio CDs, which play as you want
3. creating MP3s from ??? using ???
4. importing those MP3s into iTunes, which plays them out of order

Is that right? If so, can you fill in the question marks in step 3?

What you're reallying trying to set (assuming you're using ID3 v2.3 which is a reasonable assumption in the absence of good reason otherwise) is the TRCK tag (and, if it's a multi-tape/CD album, TPOS). The naming will only be important if whatever software you're using for setting the tags uses that to fill in the tags.

Posted August 19, 2007 6:17 PM by Todd Larason

KfS @ Open Thread 89 #801:

That would be great, hope to see you there! There's some ongoing churn on the gig schedule--you might want to check that link again right before you go.

Abi @75:

With some obvious exceptions, such as walking next to a rave or a sculpture that went FOOM at intervals, I didn't find BM to be particularly loud. I brought earplugs for sleeping, as advised, but never used them. There was plenty of sound going on, but it was like distant fireworks--I could tell it was loud in an absolute sense, but it wasn't moving a lot of air where I was.

That said, I might have been lucky in my campsite (although it was fairly close to the center), or I might have a higher tolerance than you, and I'd certainly hate for you to go and not be able to stand it. But it's a data point for you.

By the way, I also love Bodie.

Posted August 19, 2007 6:17 PM by Tim Walters

Lee @ 73: In the latter case, tracks play in what appears to be a completely random order, even though the list appears in the order I want them to play.

Are you sure you don't have shuffle play turned on for that list (the button with intertwined arrows)? That seems much more likely than an ID3 tag problem. You might get a bad ordering from the latter, but it would show up visually as well.

Posted August 19, 2007 6:20 PM by Tim Walters

I'm a bit lazy (and getting into this conversation late) but *I believe* you can solve this with only clues #1, 3, 4, 5 & 9. I say this because I was too lazy to read all of the clues and I figured it out....

Posted August 19, 2007 7:04 PM by Kelley Shimmin

Kathryn from Sunnyvale @ 74

Wait, do you mean they're going to burn for 1 minute at a rate of 2.4 gigawatts (total energy 144 gigajoules) or they're going to burn 2.4 gigajoules in 1 minute (average power 40 megawatts)? Either way, that's one energy intensive art project. What are they doing, casting molten rock?

Posted August 19, 2007 8:55 PM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

I've loved the New Mexico desert since I got a summer job assisting a surveying crew north of Albuquerque. This was in 1965, and the land was complete scrub, with a few rather stringy cattle on it. The land was being sold for $2 US per acre, and developers were starting to circle.

This is what it looks like from above now. Remember, not one of those buildings existed then, and the roads. what there were then, were just somewhat graded dirt. I sure hope they figured out what to do with that one 400 ft. wide arroyo that flooded every afternoon in summer when the rains came.

Posted August 19, 2007 9:08 PM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Abi @75, Tim @79.

You like Bodie? You'll like this Bodie (picture).

Bruce @82,
The latter: 2.4GW burned in one minute for the art project Crude Awakening. Includes the description "largest flame cannon in history." At a preview event the lead artist described another part of the project as the "single loudest noise generating device ever built by humans." That latter bit is on top of the 100 foot wooden oil derrick.

Most of the time Burning Man is about small subtle surprises. Sometimes not.

Posted August 19, 2007 9:23 PM by Kathryn from Sunnyvale

If this is an open thread, can someone who knows about roses help me?

I'm looking for a breed of rose that can best be described as "a rose proper": blood red, with 5-7 petals and yellow stamens. I don't much care what its growth habit is, as long as it can be sucessfully container-grown. Any suggestions?

Posted August 19, 2007 9:30 PM by Carrie S.

Todd, #78: At the time I wrote that, I'd tried 2 different methods of creating .mp3 files: (1) using the software that came with the widget on the .wav tracks created in the previous step, and (2) taking the Nero-created CD and running it thru CDex, my normal CD-ripping program.

Tim, #80: *headdesk* You called it. I don't have a CLUE how Shuffle got turned on for that list (I've noticed that I can have it default to on or off in different playlists, but normally I keep it off on the main Music library list!), but it was.

After consultation with my local audio-software experts, I'm now trying a slightly different approach that makes use of iTunes instead of both Nero and CDex. (I'm a complete n00b about a lot of the advanced functions of iTunes, which is why I ask my local experts.) Watch this space for further reports!

Posted August 19, 2007 9:42 PM by Lee

A brainstorming help request (that almost belongs in the 'Internal Passports' thread.)

Imagine a performance art piece at a crowded festival where a hyper-patriot (all possible meanings) of a US type does the following:

1. zips up to people while looking extremely patriotic (very red white and blue*)

2. Asks them ??? to prove that they're patriotic- where the questions could be real**.

3. Hands them a copy of the Bill of Rights (laminated wallet type) and zips away.

1 and 3 I can take care of.

But I'm having trouble thinking of good questions. I know some folks last year who built a portable airport security gate and had fun acting like hyper TSA people and asking people to go through. I'm inspired by that, but my props can only be questions and then the Bill of Rights at the end.

Surprising, funny, pointed patriotism questions anyone? Thanks!

------------
* fine 4th of July wear. All made in China.

** Steven Colberty real.

Posted August 19, 2007 9:52 PM by Kathryn from Sunnyvale

Abi: Just pretend that Abigah-El is your Krypton name, and you now have superpowers because of the yellow Dutch sun.

-----

Fun fact: In his youth, Walter Carlos Williams briefly corresponded with Lester Maddox Ford.

Posted August 19, 2007 10:32 PM by Howard Peirce

In the last post I made about software development in the Bad Sources thread, I promised I'd take the discussion to the open thread, and this seems to be it now.

My take on software is highly personal, first because I'm not originally a student of computer science or software*, and second because for some years my job was to evaluate software technology and transfer it into the corporate software process at Tektronix. Because of where I've worked and who I've worked with, I've gotten to know many people who've been involved in writing about, consulting in, and selling software development techniques and methodologies. So some of my opinions are based on my opinions of the people involved as well as of the technologies they're involved with. I know that's not very scientific, but then the subject matter isn't very scientific either. Very little of the writing on the subject of software development is based on careful experimental design and analysis, and for all the talk of metrics, very little good data is available on how software is developed in real projects.

The other major reason why there's no science of software development is that any software project has to be involved, to a greater or lesser degree, with organizational politics. So there are often reasons why accurate measurement of the effectiveness of the processes in use is not desired, and even more often reasons why the actual progress is not reported or perhaps even known.

I look at the spectrum of development methodologies as running from the extreme of central control, highly structured project organization and planning embodied in the waterfall method to the other extreme of local decision-making, unstructured communication, and short-term planning of XP and agile programming. While it's true that the spectrum is usually considered to also run over the range of organization size and project complexity, where waterfall is suited primarily for large, complex projects, and XP for small, short-term projects, I believe that this is very much an over-simplification.

There is one principle that seems to hold true across the spectrum of development projects: the organization and architecture of software is determined by the structure of the organization which develops it. I wish I knew who first came up with this idea, I don't, but I certainly can't claim it for myself.

* I was a hardware technician who became a systems engineer, and then decided that since the work was mostly software, I might as well have the job title.

Posted August 20, 2007 1:30 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Bruce, I would be fascinated to hear your take on (sometime Making Light reader) Scott Rosenberg's Dreaming in Code.

Howard (#88), IIRC, Lester Maddox Ford wrote occasionally under the name Ford Milo Chevrolet.

Posted August 20, 2007 2:42 AM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

One thing that interested me about the agile/extreme programming movement was the idea of embedding technical writers in the programming team in a larger than normal ratio of tech writers to programmers, with the goal of matching emergent working software with equally emergent complete documentation. It seemed, though, that too many software organizations think of dedicated tech writers as an unwarranted luxury. Every bit of tech writing I've done while programming and doing tech support fell into my lap by default because I could usually spell moar betr than the other members of my team. heh.

Posted August 20, 2007 3:09 AM by Earl Cooley IIi

#91: Howard (#88), IIRC, Lester Maddox Ford wrote occasionally under the name Ford Milo Chevrolet.

And would not a Ford by any other name get as much mileage?

Posted August 20, 2007 3:17 AM by Glenn Hauman

I got to this thread late and have nothing to add at present except my wild appreciation for Evan's communication of the answers. That it was five limericks in a row would have been enough, but that each limerick encompassed much of the characterization of the clues (e.g. debcha wishing to be first) was pure icing.

Posted August 20, 2007 3:21 AM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

For those who might be interested, I have now successfully converted 2 cassette tapes to archive CDs and .mp3 files in my iTunes library. Details (including all the dead ends) and a product review here. Summary: there was a bit of a learning curve involved, but overall the product works as advertised.

Posted August 20, 2007 3:37 AM by Lee

Bruce Cohen # 89: Conway's Law?

Posted August 20, 2007 4:49 AM by Jakob

Stupid Zebra puzzle. Stupid almost practically OCD me. Stupid three in the morning.

Now that I've solved the bugger, may I be permitted to finally go to sleep?

Posted August 20, 2007 5:23 AM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

Howard Peirce @ 88...

Who says she has to pretend? Didn't you notice that, when her family was still in Scotland and she'd fly from Amsterdam to see them on weekends, she didn't say how she flew there? Did she think we wouldn't catch that strange ommission? And when some of us met her in Berkeley, she was always careful to stay away from bicycles with a kryptonite lock on them.

Posted August 20, 2007 5:46 AM by Serge

nerdycellist & ethan... Re what was said in thread #89 re Across the Universe and the Beatles being overused... Even though I was born in 1955, which means that I was around when the radio would play new songs by the Beatles, I was such a square that I never paid much attention to what was going on in the 1960s. Then I went to college in 1973, getting a ride with someone who was the drummer in a band, and thus I was introduced to the Beatles after they'd each gone their way. Anyway, come to think of it, isn't their overuse in advertising a recent thing of the last 5 years? I somehow manage to tune most of that out. No matter what, I still enjoy them, especially George's "within you without you"...

Posted August 20, 2007 6:00 AM by Serge

Desert SF? Hmmm, Turtledove's "Down in the Bottomlands" (title?) works. There are a number of short stories set on Mercury; I think one or two of them have inspired "Year's Best Science Fiction" covers. The Gunslinger, with its wonderful first line (I think Drawing of the Three is also set in the desert, but I'm not certain).

Posted August 20, 2007 10:06 AM by Malthus

A man looks at a portrait and says: "Sons and brothers, I have none, but this person's father is my father's son." At whose portrait is he looking?

Posted August 20, 2007 10:16 AM by Serge

Tania @ 51... CJ Cherryh's Faded Sun novels (Serge, am I remembering this correctly? I haven't read the Faded Sun books in a looong time. I associate them with deserts)

That is correct. Kesrith... Shon'jir... Kutath... I think that's the order of the books, but it's been a long time.

Posted August 20, 2007 10:24 AM by Serge

Serge @100: Uvf qnhtugre.

Posted August 20, 2007 10:51 AM by Kip W

Jakob @ 95

That could be the original source. I'd guess I first heard it about 4th hand or so; it would take some digging to verify that there wasn't another, independent source.

Posted August 20, 2007 10:58 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Only recently, with the debate over making the Felix Chevrolet sign a designated landmark, have I finally realized fully why the writer/singer/bandleader of "Pico and Sepulveda" chose the pseudonym of Felix Figueroa. I already knew about Figueroa, and for all these years, I hadn't even wondered about "Felix."

Posted August 20, 2007 11:01 AM by Kip W

Serge @100
It is an image of flaxen-haired Doreen Grey, whose timeless charms have captivated Society for so many seasons now.

Yet I doubt that her many bosom-bows would know her as she is shown, with her face marred and marked with all the cruelties, petty and great, that a beauty may commit on her helpless acquaintance.

Yvxr sngure, yvxr qnhtugre

Posted August 20, 2007 11:06 AM by abi

Bruce Cohen #103: I'm not a software chap, but IIRC I first came across the idea in the jargon file, which referenced Conway.

Posted August 20, 2007 11:16 AM by Jakob

Deserts figure prominently in several Terry Pratchett books; Pyramids is the first that comes to mind.

'Altissimo' is a superb blood-red just-more-than-single rose crowned with golden stamens. I don't know how successful it'd be in a container, since it's a short-growing (in my experience) climber. No scent, though.

Posted August 20, 2007 11:46 AM by cmk

Another desert novel: Courtship Rite aka Gaia, by Donald Kingsbury. The semi-eponymous planet is perhaps more scrub than sandy desert, but the dearth of edible native species makes it as hostile as the deepest Sahara.

Also, I remember a novel called Salt by author unknown, about which I recall almost nothing, except there being a rape in the middle of it. Seemed almost self-consciously literary when I read it, but I mention it in case someone else liked it.

Posted August 20, 2007 12:02 PM by NelC

108: "Salt" by Adam Roberts, perhaps? And, yes, I agree.

Posted August 20, 2007 12:20 PM by ajay

Regarding desert sf: Tim Pratt's Strange Adventures of Rangergirl takes place in an Old West desert (and Santa Cruz).

Posted August 20, 2007 12:41 PM by Suzanne F

Kip W... abi... Correct. I first came across it exactly nine years ago, in some column by Marylin vos Savant. It had originally been cooked up by one Warren Buckland.

Posted August 20, 2007 12:42 PM by Serge

THE HUGE GOD ADDRESSES THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITIES

I am Her twin and Her son.
I was born when She gave birth
To Herself, and grew as She grew.
You say She abhors me,
But I am greater than all
Her other children; greater
Than all of them combined.
I surround Her and embrace Her,
Though I have no substance.
You, in your small bubble,
Can go nowhere else unless
You first pass me.
Touch me unprotected, and
I will draw the breath
From your body, the warmth
From your flesh. I am nothing,
But I encompass everything.

Who is speaking? (This isn't hard. Not much of a riddle, really, more of a poem.)

Posted August 20, 2007 1:09 PM by Xopher

Carrie S. @85: What you're looking for is commonly known as an "old" rose.

Most likely candidates are R. gallica or R. damascena.

Posted August 20, 2007 1:18 PM by Lori Coulson

I'm pretty sure, since it violates the "money flows towards the author" rule, but Author House is a scam, right?

Lori, cmk, thanks, that gives me somewhere to start looking for roses. :)

Posted August 20, 2007 1:51 PM by Carrie S.

Lori, cmk, thanks, that gives me somewhere to start looking for roses. :)

I'm pretty sure, since it violates the "money flows towards the author" rule, but Author House is a scam, right?

Posted August 20, 2007 1:56 PM by Carrie S.

Serge (98)

I think all it would take is for me not to hear another Beatles song (no excerpt, no arrangement) for the next, say, five years - I think then I could actually listen and fully appreciate them. I feel the same way about Copland; overexposure makes me change the radio channel anytime Rodeo or Appalachian Spring makes an appearance. I'm not sure how many years those would have to go away before I could tolerate them again.

Pachelbel can just go away.

Posted August 20, 2007 2:24 PM by nerdycellist

I agree, R. gallica was the first thing that came to my mind as well, until I looked again at "blood" red; it's usually described as "light" red, I think. I am nearly sure there are no strong reds among the Damasks, though.

What I did think of later was the modern Gallica hybrids such as 'Poinsettia' and 'James Mason.'

Posted August 20, 2007 2:31 PM by cmk

nerdycellist... Considering how long it took advertisers to stop using Carmina Burana after Excalibur came out, you might want to abandon all hopes of 5 years without the Beatles.

Posted August 20, 2007 2:33 PM by Serge

I could go a long time without hearing Stairway to Heaven again...

Posted August 20, 2007 3:03 PM by Rob Rusick

Xopher @#112: inphhz?

Posted August 20, 2007 3:05 PM by Mary Dell

I guess inphhz as well.

(I venture either havirefr or angher for the "she" in the poem, mostly because I like the rot13ed names).

Posted August 20, 2007 3:17 PM by Neil Willcox

Mary, Neil: Inphhz is correct. Told you it wasn't hard.

As for "She"—the fourth line will let you know for sure whether it's Havirefr or Angher, if you really think there's a difference.

Posted August 20, 2007 3:38 PM by Xopher

Oh, well, in for a penny, in for a Pound.

I thought Walter Carlos Williams wrote those Dread Empire's Plums books. I devoured the first two--they were really cool!

Isn't everyone actually thinking of Walter Juan Carlos Williams, author of speculative fiction, poet of the commonplace, and Spanish monarch?

"Shadows cast by the plasm light

under the Shield,

the head is tilted back,

the long shadow of burning legs

presumes a world taken for granted"

on which the dolphin trills."

--Walter Juan Carlos Williams, "Shadows" (from Pictures from Constantine)

Posted August 20, 2007 4:12 PM by mds

re myself @87,

The "Flamer Bingo" thread is a near-canonical list of troll and flamer sign.

Has anyone here seen something similar for questioning patriotism? i.e. What do patriot-trolls say?

The bingo thread itself has a couple ("The president is doing God's work.."). I've seen short lists at Glen Greenwald and a few other places (in response to claims that Republicans have never questioned Democrat's patriotism, for example). But I haven't seen a longer list / don't know who might have one.

Any pointers here or by email much appreciated.

Posted August 20, 2007 4:18 PM by Kathryn from Sunnyvale

Kathryn: I get a fair amount of "What are you, French?" To which I reply, "Yeah, culturally, pretty much. How many languages do you speak?"

Posted August 20, 2007 4:42 PM by TexAnne

Gursky @ 46: The Gandalara series by Garrett and Heydron fits your criteria. The actual geographic identity of the desert is the main "mystery" of the series.

Posted August 20, 2007 7:43 PM by ACW

Ah, you folks are great. A thousand good suggestions and no-one cruel enough to point out that mites actually have eight legs.

The book on my shelf I was trying to remember, that I later found when callous morning came calling to wake my girlfriend and let me turn on the lights in our studio apartment, was indeed Effinger. Specifically, his A Fire in the Sun, which I rather liked.
I've put some of your suggestions on order at the bookstore. Usually my displays don't actually sell any books*, but I have fun choosing them regardless.

*Last month's for instance. Apparently anyone who cared about the Heinlein centennial already owns his books. Silly me, I thought Farnham's Freehold would fly off the shelf with sheer kitsch power alone.

I somehow thought "can you grok it?" was sheer placard gold, too, until I slowly realized that no, no of course they could not grok it. I was, in fact, trying to sell them the book that would allow them to grok it. Like advertising a Mandarin for Beginners course in Mandarin.

Posted August 20, 2007 9:05 PM by Gursky

OK, Open Thread question: Can any of you Latin types tell me how to say "Behold, I am Justice manifested"? I need it for a story. Medieval Latin would be ideal (so I think there's an 'ego' in there, right?).

Posted August 20, 2007 9:05 PM by Xopher

Kathryn: "What is habeas corpus?" "What citizens of the U.S. are barred from voting?"
IMO, knowledge is an important part of patriotism, but my imagination is blanking (mercifully) on the sort of question that could be answered "Ditto!" if you're looking to be sardonic.

Carla: Our "Mr Lincoln" (thanks to TNH for the identification) grows in a small compass -- not a windowsill-sized flowerpot but it might fit in a tub. Gorgeous smell and petal color, but I haven't noticed the stamen color and it might be more petals than you're looking for. (I'm not sure I've ever seen a rose with just 7 petals.)

Posted August 20, 2007 10:26 PM by CHip

Kathyrn, #124, I sometimes get asked why I don't have an American flag on anything. (I wrote and installed a software patch while on a submarine under fire. I don't need a flag to be patriotic.)

Posted August 20, 2007 11:03 PM by Marilee

Marilee @130,

I used to not own 'patriotic gear.'

But when I saw the wide range of garish stuff on super deep discount at a Large National Store I had to grab some.

As said, every last piece was made in China*, thong shoes to headscarf. If I try a hyperpatriot act**, I'll have leave the tags on for the irony.

-------
* to be fair, the flag they sold was made in the US. But it wasn't on sale, and I didn't buy one.

** although I've got too many art projects already, and I'd need a shtick to go with the costume. It's like thinking about how many costumes to bring to a SF convention- easy to get carried away.

Posted August 20, 2007 11:42 PM by Kathryn from Sunnyvale

Kathryn from Sunnyvale as Lady Liberty, maybe?

Posted August 20, 2007 11:45 PM by Serge

Altissimo rose is not a delicate flower in California. It is a brute, often referred to as Attila The Rose.

You can find it growing up the walls at the Huntington Museum, Art Galleries and Botanical Garden's Tea Room. Sometimes, it gets really hungry and has a patron for lunch.

Here's a URL for the Huntington's Rose pages.

Posted August 20, 2007 11:46 PM by Lauren

Gursky, were you there? I was stuck in the dealer/exhibit space the whole weekend....

Because just about every generaton of my men-folk have been in some branch of service as far as I know (I'm' certain about mine and earlier generations, I expect that male pretty-much-unknown-cause they're on my fahter's side have signed up for more current warfare, I think the whole yellow ribbon thing is stupid.

Someone whose blog I read regularly who was in the service got berated at a gas station for not having the magnetic stickers on their car. The woman who berated him got really defensive when he pointed out that the stickers don't send money to the troops and that he had been collecting and sending along goods to actually help the troops in the field (http://skippyslist.com/2007/08/21/warning-signs/)

I got talked out of joining the army by my dad (Air Force Major, at the time reservist) and my brother (Army Captain, active) in my early college years. After I got a little older and more experienced I realized they regarded the woman's service as little more than a lesbian recruiting system and they were scared of that for me (silly men!). (I realized it from the language they had been using, not any overt "this is what it is" kind of thing."

When I realized this I was amused but I did not go sign up.,..

Posted August 21, 2007 12:02 AM by Paula Helm Murray

Meta Logic Puzzle: Out of the 11 clues listed, what is the smallest number of clues that can be used to arrive at the correct answer? Which ones? How many different unique combinations can you come up with?

(I have it down to five, or four if you allow that "before" and "after" mean "directly before" or "directly after.")

Posted August 21, 2007 12:40 AM by Heresiarch

Xopher@128:

"Behold, I am Justice manifested"? I need it for a story. Medieval Latin would be ideal (so I think there's an 'ego' in there, right?).

I think "Ecce, Iustitia repraesentata sum" would be more or less right. (Feminine ending for "repraesentata" to go with the first declension feminine noun.) You could substitute "aequitas" for "iustitia" and not change the rest. Unfortunately, medieval Latin's out of my depth, since I ignore anything after the fourth century CE; medievalists?

Posted August 21, 2007 12:43 AM by Nomie

No Paula, I was just talking about the humble little display I put up in his honor at the bookstore where I work.

Posted August 21, 2007 1:44 AM by Gursky

Would the Powers That Be consider posting a link to whatever the current Open Thread happens to be, near the top of the ML main page? For a while there, the open thread was deep, deep into the main page, about half-way down.

Posted August 21, 2007 1:55 AM by Earl Cooley III

To whoever was asking about the meaning of the numeric labels on the cards near the end of the novel, The Prestige:

I just finished reading the book myself, and was briefly puzzled by them. I believe if you go back and read