Jack@158 My point was that the Harry discussion got derailed, and suffered.

That depends on how you define "derailed". The thread was still discussing Harry Potter, just that the subthread I was in was me raising issues I had with the plot and others saying why they didn't have a problem with those plot turns.

You can't say Making Light has an issue with disagreement, then point to a thread where I disagreed and was never disemvoweled or deleted and say that's proof of intolerance, and say that's an example of a minority opinion being disallowed.

Posted November 4, 2007 1:48 PM by Greg London

The thread goes ever on and on, Down from the post where it began...

*ducks*

Posted November 4, 2007 1:52 PM by Lizzy L

Yeago: 'look what they're going to do to me' is not a particularly appealing argument to attempt to push.

I put the vowels back in and read your comment on boingboing, and I think the person you're quoting is probably right about Cory's fiction writing; a lot of it is self-indulgent, and plays to a very particular crowd who are in some sense easy fish to catch.

But pointing people uninvited at privately-published bad reviews of their work is in no sense civil, and here and boingboing are some of the few blogs whose moderation aims at civility.

If you want a vigorous but mostly civil argument in this sort of direction, wander over to Charlie Stross's blog at www.antipope.org and read "New York City Math Teacher"'s contributions to the comment thread on the most recent post.

Posted November 4, 2007 1:54 PM by Tom Womack

Nomie @ 116

(AFK @109:) "I've noticed that this blog has a lot of conversation, but no debate."

"Are you making this call based on this thread alone?"

I'd make a similar call (using "little", rather than "no"), based on several years of reading ML more-or-less regularly and being acquainted with some of the participants for up to almost 50 years -- _if_ I were defining "debate" (as some people do) as a "score points & defeat your opponent" game.

Not that we don't sometimes use techniques of the Formal Debate in our conversation, but the major point here is, generally, quite different. Mostly, I think, we want to express our opinions, discover other people's opinions, and maybe learn something & modify our own attitudes. For that, I'd say, Discussion works much better than Debate. And yes, it seems to me that this is exactly what ML (ideally) accomplishes.

Everyone's mileage is likely to vary.

Posted November 4, 2007 1:55 PM by Don Fitch

CeCe disappears, AFK appears. AFK is fond of using mature/immature as a heavy-duty insult. So is Booch (50):

I've been a reader of BB for a few years now and the reaction by them to what I thought was an honest criticism was a bit jarring.

Yes it's their blog, but I feel people shouldn't be censored, provided the comments aren't offensive.

Also, I do find it a bit hypocritical that BB has posted several entries on censorship relating to Google or Youtube, but when Boing Boing does it, we're told that they can do whatever they wish, and chew out those with an opposing opinion for having a sense of entitlement.

I also feel that the "disemvoweling" to be somewhat immature, as I saw this blog as a collection of professionals who wouldn't waste time doing such a thing.

(Note: the two main disemvowelled posts at Boing Boing were by Yeago and Nutkin, who turned up there in tandem, writing in not terribly dissimilar styles. Yeago had first appeared on BB the day before; Nutkin was posting there for the first time. By itself, this doesn't prove anything. It's just a pointer.)

Nonesuch got disemvowelled here and on the thread in question at Boing Boing. Here's a reconstruction of his comment at Boing Boing:

It's funny, really. If YouTube threatens to revoke your ability to post, BB editors post about it like it's a violation of the constitution. Yet here they are, happily screening their own content for even less reason than YouTube. At least YouTube had an excuse: they can be sued over the stuff they're revoking. What's the excuse here?

At the point that I suspended TC for two weeks on account of some serious bad behavior, he went spla and started spawning sockpuppets, among them CantStopTheSignal, FreeTibet, Mr.Universe, and TruthFriction. (By the way: in situations where TC was uncertain of himself, the sockpuppets tended to turn up in tandem to support each other.)

Whenever I identified another one of TC's sockpuppets, I'd take down all of that identity's comments. Here's one of them reacting:

Oh say, I noticed the moderator deleted my other posts, including the ones she replied to. Why can't you have a mature discussion without silencing anyone who disagrees with you? I am flabbergasted that such draconian censorship is occurring on BoingBoing, which features "DEFEAT CENSORWARE" as a prominent link on the main page!

He has no idea how I'm able to spot him.

Even if I identify a sockpuppet long after the period during which it was posting, I'll still go back and delete its comments. This will continue until I'm certain that there's been a two-week period during which TC did no sockpuppety posting at all.

People have understandably complained that this leaves holes in the discourse, and screws up the message numbers. I keep telling them to blame TheCynic and his sockpuppets. He's known almost from the start that that's what would happen if he ignored the suspension.

If trolls weren't slow learners, and earless to boot, they wouldn't be trolls.

Posted November 4, 2007 1:55 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

I think there's an important distinction to be made here, between the right to say whatever you like, and the right to somebody else's audience. Cory is a staunch defender of the former, but he's not censoring anyone if he doesn't let every angry moron share the attention of his audience.

Yes, his audience. Cory owns his readers' attention in a way that very few people in this world own any commodity. The reason so many people read him is a direct consequence of his hard work and the high quality of his writing. He is completely entitled to use that attention to make money by putting ads on his blog, or to promote his books, or to reward commenters who have something intelligent to contribute. But why should a troll who has done nothing to earn that attention get a share of it?

Posted November 4, 2007 1:57 PM by Individ-ewe-al

#154, FungifromYuggoth (hope I got that right). It was an observation, not the opening premise in a tightly-reasoned argument.

I'm not understanding your objection. If I'm reading someone's message, or visiting their blog, and they seem interesting, of course I want to find out more about them. Even buy their books, if I want to. And P.R. people, critics, and journalists can get facts wrong. So why not push one's own stuff? Too many writers are far too modest.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:10 PM by Jack Ruttan

Hiya, TheCynic, a.k.a. "never ending deletions" (155). It's bleepin' remarkable how often someone who's never been seen before in online discourse just happens to come along in time to read a short-lived comment in Boing Boing before I make it vanish.

I don't believe in you for a second. All you've done is reduce my belief in the reality of the person who posted that comment.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:11 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Teresa @169, quoting "TheCynic":

I am flabbergasted that such draconian censorship is occurring on BoingBoing, which features "DEFEAT CENSORWARE" as a prominent link on the main page!

Wow. It's been a while since I saw somebody missing the point quite that badly.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:15 PM by Jules

ctlly, ths r nly fw f my psts hr - d y hnstly thnk pst frm sngl ddrss? (Thgh t lks lk th P trckng s prtty gd - nd ntc 50% f my psts cncrn dt rtntn nd frdm.) hv bn pstng hr fr yrs - nd y cn nly fnd 4 f thm? Mst b prt f tht wrld fms mdrtn sklls whch r s n dmnd t hgh trffc sts tht fl thy hv mjr nflnc.

spclly msng ws th rply frm Hydn (s h nts ''m nt "Mr. Hydn."') t n f my psts, syng hw shld b lk nthr pst -

'Y'r nttld t fnd th mg lss ppst thn d, nd thr's plnty f rm fr snsbl dscssn f jst hw mch lrm r trrr w shld fl s w mv nt wrld f lss nd lss prvcy. s Tssrct bsrvs n #40, sm T rgnztns r lt lss blndrng thn th Strlng qt mpls.'

hv lwys wntd t pnt t tht lttl jxtpstn, nd thnks fr th chnc. s mttr f fct, pntd t tht lttl stry n n f th frst dltn fsts t bng-bng, whn t smd s f ll cmmnts crtcl f mdrtn wr dmd t b frm n r tw srcs - whch ws wrng.

d wndr f th crrnt #29 pst t th bng-bng thrd wll b dltd - lt m chck - np, 'tmk' s stll thr - wndr hw mch lngr?

gn, thnks fr lnkng t fw f my prvs psts - spclly th 'Thr r lt f fcts whch r smply nt dscssd n pblc - lk th fct tht vry sngl -ml snd hr s mntrd.' r n ths cs, vry P ddrss. Wh knws, y mght vn nt tht fct smwhr n th st - nt tht t wld mn nythng, nywys.

n th ntrnt, t s prtty sy t fgr t wh th dgs r.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:18 PM by neverending_deletions

Trs-
y knw, ths sn't th frst tm y hvn't blvd tht smn ctlly xsts - nt th pnt bt th stry bv, whn y wr gn crtn tht ny pnt whch ddn't ft yr frmwrk ws wrthy f dltn, nd ths y gn dsmssd my cmmnts s bng fbrctd.

ctlly, t ws vgly dsppntng, nt tht dltng psts wtht cmmnt s xctly nknwn whn pstng cntrry pnns n th rght wng wrld - s ntd bv, bng-bng cld b mprvd by t lst ntng cmmnt ws dltd - thn ppl cld s hw ftn tht hppns.

My gss, t hppns lt mr thn mst ppl knw.

Bt s wht? 'm mch mr cyncl thn y, t lst n trms f dt ntwrks - pnt prvd bv - nd hv nvr hd ny nncnt dlsns whn t cms t hw ppl wh rn thm ct.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:27 PM by neverending_deletions

One of the wonders of the modern age is the number of people who are proud of being utter jerks.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:32 PM by JESR

Jack Ruttan @149 "I'd be happy to see some counter-examples of discussions people here have participated in."

I started to try to answer this with some examples, but gave up due to lack of time. However, please note that threads on this site regularly reach into several hundred posts and sometimes pass a thousand. That's unlikely to be happening so frequently if people were not having discussions about the topics in question. The threads would get boring if everyone was just agreeing with one another, and would fizzle out much faster.

Of course, the wanderings into poetry, cookery, knitting etc. help as well!

Posted November 4, 2007 2:32 PM by dcb

JDC, #162
I wish to put words in their mouths in a manner that reinforces my prejudices and is reasonably amusing. For example, Cory's would be some sort of Haunted Mansion-themed papercraft Metropolitan. Or something.

That sounds fascinating! Good lord, get started already, I want to read it!

alternatively...

Cory, if you are still reading this, I'd love for you to get/make a Haunted Mansion-themed papercraft Metropolitan, preferably life-size, and available for reproduction under a CC-SA-BY attribution.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:34 PM by midori

re:that 3th post prior to mine

Ugh. How vulgar.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:38 PM by midori

mdr -
vry tm smn cn't rfrnc ln nmbr, t 'rdcs my blf n th rlty f th prsn wh pstd tht cmmnt.'

s fr vlgr - dltn sn't vlgr, t sms t b vr mr n fshn. spclly whn th prsn n chrg f dltn nts 'nvr bn sn bfr n nln dscrs' whl nthr n f hr c-blggrs lnks t psts hr vr cpl f mnths frm n P ddrss.

trly clssy ct, n whch my vlgrty stnds t.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:49 PM by neverending?

Surely if Teresa (or other moderators) really wanted to suppress all dissent/debate/discussion, they would have to delete all subsequent comments that mentioned a deleted post, or stop comment threads, or I'm sure many other things that really would stifle debate. I certainly haven't seen anything like that happen here.

Making multiple posts under different names doesn't strike me as showcasing one's authenticity, either.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:49 PM by Nikki Jewell

mdr -
vry tm smn cn't rfrnc ln nmbr, t 'rdcs my blf n th rlty f th prsn wh pstd tht cmmnt.'

s fr vlgr - dltn sn't vlgr, t sms t b vr mr n fshn. spclly whn th prsn n chrg f dltn nts 'nvr bn sn bfr n nln dscrs' whl nthr n f hr c-blggrs lnks t psts hr vr cpl f mnths frm n P ddrss.

trly clssy ct, n whch my vlgrty stnds t.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:50 PM by neverending?

mdr -
vry tm smn cn't rfrnc ln nmbr, t 'rdcs my blf n th rlty f th prsn wh pstd tht cmmnt.'

s fr vlgr - dltn sn't vlgr, t sms t b vr mr n fshn. spclly whn th prsn n chrg f dltn nts 'nvr bn sn bfr n nln dscrs' whl nthr n f hr c-blggrs lnks t psts hr vr cpl f mnths frm n P ddrss.

trly clssy ct, n whch my vlgrty stnds t.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:51 PM by neverending?

TomB @ #164, I misread your suggestion as "John D" MacDonald, which made me wonder what Travis McGee would have thought about torture.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:51 PM by Linkmeister

Nkk-
Jst gt Mvbl Typ rrr mssg bt rbldng pg, nd whn rldng ths pg, s th sm pst pprs mltpl tms - ths wld b nrml cs f dltng nntntnlly mltpl psts.

Bt n trms f tht bng-bng thrd - n, thr r ctlly psts stll lft (lst tm chckd) tlkng bt dltd psts.

Th whl thng lks mtrsh, s cmprd t my vlgrty.

Posted November 4, 2007 2:55 PM by never_ending

Shorter "Neverending*"

Nyah, nyah-nyah, nyah nyah!

Posted November 4, 2007 2:56 PM by Bob Webber

James 122: Brilliant! Anybody else up for performing it at Worldcon? All I need is a hump to look like Riff-Raff, though making Greg look like Magenta would definitely be a chore, and Fragano looking like Columbia...not gonna happen.

JESR 176: I share your croggle at this phenomenon. I wonder if she/he/it (say that fast) realizes that she/he/it has just announced "Hey, everyone! Not only am I a total asshole, I'm an even bigger asshole than you realize!"

Posted November 4, 2007 2:56 PM by Xopher

nd t kp th vlgrty lv -
Tmr R, th prsn wh pstd dcnt mssg whch ws thn dltd hs wrttn t ll sx dtrs f bng-bng, cncldng -
' dn't wnt t blv th dtrs spprt th dltn f ll dssnt.'

lk sch blf n hmn dcncy, n prt bcs dn't rlly shr t. (Bt thn, dn't rlly xst, ccrdng t t lst n prsn, nd f d, 'm vlgr, ccrdng t nthr.) Hr cmmnt #29 bt hw dsppntd sh ws t bng-bng's dscnnct s nlkly t b rnsttd, snc sh dsn't xst, t lst n th ys f th nly ppl wh mttr - th ns wth th dlt ky.

Stll, cmmtng hr s bttr thn brkng th lw (s sggstd by n bng-bng wnr) nd dwnldng wrtchd psd f th T Crwd - thgh th d f svt cmmnt r sms lk brllnt strcl d t ths pnt.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:05 PM by never_ending

Why is it that never_ending is reminding this fiendish writer of mrkyrk? Is it the neediness for attention? The ability to condense jerkitude into a few phrase? All of the above?

And having given the crumb of attention, I turn back to more interesting tasks. Ta.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:07 PM by Fiendish Writer

Never-ending @ 185: I'm not sure I understand your point. Or maybe mine wasn't clear.

What I meant to say was, I've never seen Teresa (or any other moderator) try to stifle debate or dissent on Making Light, and that if she wanted to, she could. So accusing her of doing that seems to me to be plain wrong.

Also, I don't think Teresa meant to say that the person posting your comments didn't exist, only that your various online personas don't exist as real people. At least that's how I understood it.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:18 PM by Nikki Jewell

I roll to disbelieve in "neverending?". He must be a parody of himself.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:21 PM by Wakboth

shld dd, t hs bn fscntng wtchng th rvrs sd f th ntrnt - th crtnty tht ppl dn't xst.

Trs s lkly t rmmbr th stry bt pstng wth tw dffrnt thrl vcs, snc wrt t ftr sh dsmssd my cmmnts s bng trckry ftr bng-bng's frst dltn fst. McDnld mrly gv m chnc t brng t p n n pn frm. Jst lk rght wng blg ws s dsgstd wth my pntng t tht Grmns n lngr blv n mss slghtr s wy t mprv th wrld, h pstd th (fk - 'm nt dmb) -ml ddrss t pnt t hw cwrdly ws, ftr th sbmssn frm sd -ml ddrsss wld nvr b pblcly shrd. (Th rght wng s rlly tchy whn y brng p xmpls f scts tht rjct mss mrdr - g fgr, t b trt.)

Thgh hv n ccss t ny lgs, 'm prtty sr ths Tmr s rl prsn, f pssbly bt nv, nlk th sphsctd dnzns f th ntrnt hr. nd f wht sh wrt s tr (mght nt b, ftr ll - 'm nt n pstn t chck ny dt), thn t lst Trs wll b n pstn t s f sh md mltpl rrrs n dsmssng ndvdls wh sh thnks dsn't xst, bcs thy dn't sm t ft nt hr wrld vw. mght b cyncl, bt tht dsn't mk m th cync.

Gd ngh fr m.

Bsds, Slcktvst s lt mr fn. f y wnt rl prsn wh s bynd blf, chck t th wrld's mst Cmpssntly Whckd t Lbrl Lbrtrn (TM). t lst t Slcktvst, w ll thnk h s rl prsn - hrd s tht mght b t mgn t tms, h hs dstnctv styl ll hs wn.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:22 PM by nevermore

Things have taken a turn for the surreal. It's like looking under the bridge and finding, not trolls, but eight year old kids dressed up in poorly made troll costumes, carrying, not an axe or club, but a large inflatable version of same.

I guess that's what happens when you turn the lights on.

Hm. Was it worth it? Yeah, I think Jim's little musical number at 122 made it worth it.

Only thing is, with little more than rugrats with conspiracy theories for opponents it seems like shooting fish in a barrel. Fish too stupid to know they've been shot. Ah well. It was fun.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:30 PM by Greg London

neverendingdeletions @ 174:
"Actually, those are only a few of my posts here - do you honestly think I post from a single address?"

Wow.

Someone who admits he posts under multiple identities, and not only seems to see nothing wrong with it, but to feel that it's normal.

That is... disturbed.

This is one of the most "EWWWW!!!" inducing comments I've ever read.

Seriously, it made me draw back from the keyboard with a "What the fuck...?" and the hackles rising on my neck.

I'm not using "disturbed" casually here. This is genuinely sociopathic behavior.

Patrick, remember that correspondence we had about a common acquaintance who you described as "a feral nut"? I think we can add another name (and a LOT of aliases) to the list.

Teresa, I'd be very happy to see this character not just disemvoweled, but deleted and banned.

Ewww. Just... ewwwww.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:33 PM by Bruce Arthurs

...this sockpuppeting idiot posts on Slacktivist? Well, that does explain a lot about the endless flamewars over there. Much as I like that blog, I'm nearly ready to give up on reading the comments because there doesn't seem to be any moderation except to remove spam and HTML errors.

I'm still not sure what s/he means to achieve by proudly declaring the Sockpuppet Nature. Wouldn't it be more efficient to just say "Please, ignore all of my posts under these names" and give a list?

Posted November 4, 2007 3:34 PM by Fade Manley

rlz ths s gttng cnfsng.

Ths thrd strtd t tlkng bt 'cnsrng' (dltn s bttr - nd sr, th ppl rnnng th st cn dlt whtvr thy lk, ny tm thy lk) t bng-bng, whr n f th blggrs hr t lctrlt (yh, mkng lght ws th nfrr blg - tht s hw lng 'v bn rdng hr) sms t hv dy jb.

hv lrdy hd sm xprnc t nt bng bl t cmmnt t bng-bng, nd th rny f thrd hr dscssng dltn wtht ctlly lnkng t llw ppl t rd th 'hrrbl' psts ws t mch t pss p.

Thn whn nthr blg wnr hr pstd lnks t my prvs psts t mkng lght (sm cncrnng hw sy t s t s ntwrkd dt fr thr prpss thn rgnlly gvn), t gv m chnc t pnt t hw ws th thr f tw psts, smthng hd cmmntd pn n nvr pblshd bng-bng pst - nt xctly dmnstrtng my xstnc, bt t lst prvdng crtn bss fr Trs t qstn hr crtnty tht ppl wh dn't gr wth hr dn't ctlly xst.

Sm f s r ctlly qt dstrbd t sm f bng-bng's rcnt ctns (rsl L Gn cms t mnd), thgh why w cr s prbbly nfthmbl - ftr ll, nlk th wnrs nd mplys, w dn't hv ny fnncl ntrsts.

Ths sms ncmprhnsbl t ths wh gt pd t b nvlvd, bt sm f s blv(d) n wht bng-bng smd t b spsng. Bt whch n prctc sms t hppn vr mr rrly. Lk t rl blg - ncldng ths n - hndrds f psts. Lk t bng-bng - Th Rgstr ds bttr, nd t lst n thr thr mcks mch f Cry's cncrns - nd th fct tht rlwsk dsn't llw cmmnts sn't dstrbng, s h sn't th n strdntly prclmng frdm s gd n nd f tslf.

Sdly, t sms s f bng-bng s slwly strtng t rprsnt wht s wrng wth th ntrnt, nd nt wht s rght wth t. nd d ntc tht th mst srs pstr, Pscvtz, hs prtty mch drppd ff - bng-bng sn't rlly plc t fnd mch n th wy f hrd scnc nymr, s t?

Posted November 4, 2007 3:43 PM by never_say_never

#177 Dcb: "I started to try to answer this with some examples, but gave up due to lack of time."

That's okay. Silly request. I hang around here a bit, and there is interesting stuff. Sometimes, however, it gets a little like the bar in "Star Wars." Esp. when commenters do verse, or casually slip into ROT13.

I'm very sensitive, and the political topics can be dismaying, not to mention all the writing scam and bad "agent" stories. It's addicting, though, as you probably know! And the response time and rate is pretty phenomenal.

Still, I get too verbose in comments. Should save it for my own blog (or better yet, my 'real' writing), to avoid littering the internet with words I might not want to have hang around. Not that any of it's easy to control, but I haven't dropped too big a brick yet, that I'm aware of.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:48 PM by Jack Ruttan

Ack. Totally blew the web address thing. I want to blow my own horn, or at least let people see a little of what I'm about, so am correcting it here.

Posted November 4, 2007 3:56 PM by Jack Ruttan

'Smn wh dmts h psts ndr mltpl dntts, nd nt nly sms t s nthng wrng wth t, bt t fl tht t's nrml.

Tht s... dstrbd.'

Jst bt my bd tm, bt y knw, wht dstrbs m s smn wh thnks tht thy shld nt kp thmslvs prvt n th Nt, t th xtnt cslly pssbl. spclly s th thrw wy sr nms r mnt t b t lst ptntlly n xtr lvl f txtl cntxt.

My chldrn hv fr ntrnt ccss - n fltrs ('m lkly rlly bd prnt n yr ys t) - bt thy hv t drlld nt thm t nvr s thr wn nm, -ml tc. spclly t ny st tht ggrgts dt - s hs bn prvn tht ths st ds. nd thy shld nvr hv th sm 'dntty' - f nly t stp th mrktrs frm sly cllctng dt.

Smtms, t s dprssng t s hw mny ppl sm nwr f wht vst cmptr ntwrk/dtbs mns. Prsnlly, nvr s cks, mgs, Jvscrpt, r ny Mcrsft prdcts. vn mr dprssng s hw ld ths mks m fl. Ds cln nstll frm stndln systm n rglr bss mn nythng t y?

Lk t th lnkng f my P ddrss, s cslly md - nd thn lk t th rctn. pst frm hm, nd frm fw cmptrs t wrk - lk mst ppl, hv mr thn n P ddrss.

s fr dntts - hp my txts r wrth rdng by thmslvs, nt sm md p prsn. Why wld y pssbly ssm tht nythng prt frm th wrttn wrds n th scrn s 'rl?'

W wll vd th phlsphy, bt th d tht mst ppl wh sm t b mrcn hv n cncpt f th mprtnc f prvcy s trblng. t s smthng tht rpns dn't nd ny lssns n.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:01 PM by never

Just a couple of factual points which might be left dangling without referents:

1. Jon Pescovitz's most recent BoingBoing post was made just a little while before a comment here mentioning that Pescovitz had mostly stopped posting.

2. Ursula K. LeGuin's unhappiness seems to have been directed toward Cory Doctorow in particular, not BoingBoing in particular. The paragraph which refers to this unhappiness conflates it with the unhappiness of various persons whose reasons, such as they are, appear to have nothing to do with LeGuin's personal and legitimate response to the unrequested and unauthorized republication of her writing on BoingBoing.

People are certainly entitled to be disappointed when their hopes for (say) the way BoingBoing will operate are not fulfilled. This is not the same as an entitlement to have the angry, insulting, and moronic comments with which they respond to having their unjustified expectations not met preserved intact and presented as part of BoingBoing's content.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:01 PM by Bob Webber

Bruce @ 194 I'm not using "disturbed" casually here. This is genuinely sociopathic behavior.

Speaking of sociopathic behavior... I have Google locked and loaded.

Who wants it?

never @ 196 Sadly, it seems as if boing-boing is slowly starting to represent what is wrong with the Internet, and not what is right with it.

Right, which goes back to what a very earlier commenter had to say: Start your own blog. You don't like boing-boing, that's fin --- move on. Boing-boing doesn't belong to you. It isn't a public free-for-all. Register your own domain and have a hay day. Just stand-by for the same dose of criticism you're happy to dish out.
Lastly, quit trolling about the internet for attention. Conduct unbecoming -10pts.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:05 PM by JKRichard

Guys,

I'm sure Teresa doesn't mind you having fun, but do remember to put the bat & blidfold away and tidy up afterward. Last time we had papier maché, little strips of tissue paper and candy wrappers all over the floor.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:18 PM by abi

My father used to say 'Yu put a fool in a mortar an' poun' him, him wi' come out di same fool'.

'Never....' is one more instance proving my father was a man of great wisdom.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:24 PM by Fragano Ledgister

To tell the truth, abi, this pile of mouldy socks doesn't make a very good piñata. Not hard enough to make a satisfying sound when you hit it, no candy inside. They're just kind of vaguely obnoxious in a less than coherent way.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:26 PM by Individ-ewe-al

Trollolets:

I'm disemvoweled rather frequently,
but that's the lot of the iconoclast.
(My several dozen sockpuppets agree.)
I'm disemvoweled rather frequently
because I dare to say that none are free
when trolls like me are scorned, mocked, and outcast.
I'm disemvoweled rather frequently.
but that's the lot of the iconoclast.

I'm killfiled by everyone I meet
Which only serves to illustrate my point,
Since I'm so wise and handsome and discreet!
I'm killfiled by everyone I meet---
They're clearly nazi censors, who compete
to squash my eruditic embonpoint!
I'm killfiled by everyone I meet
Which only serves to illustrate my point.

I get banned from a blog or two a day.
It must be since I'm so mature and smart,
with grace and rhetoric both in my sway.
I get banned from a blog or two a day,
by jealous thugs who can't stand repartee,
or anybody who won't take their part!
I get banned from a blog or two a day:
It must be since I'm so mature and smart.

(Line 6 of stanza 2 is sic.)

Posted November 4, 2007 4:26 PM by Lighthill

I find perspectives interesting. Me, Never-guy, I /don't/ use my (full) real name on the 'net. But on the other hand, having a, for lack of a better word, persona which I can hang my hat on, a presence in a community, seems reasonable to me.

So yeah, I don't hand out my full real name, or my main email address... But I do have a consistent personality and (when I choose to be part of a particular community) a consistent experience in that community.

You seem to have a stake in not fully participating in online communities. Is this accurate?

Posted November 4, 2007 4:34 PM by kate

never(whoever)@199
As for identities - I hope my texts are worth reading by themselves, not some made up persona.

I wouldn't be too hasty to make that assumption, if I were you.

Whoever you are.

This is the internet; you can call yourself anything you want. But if you're going to call yourself Little Bo-Peep one day, and SheepGirl the next, and Ms. Peep on the third, you can't expect readers to give your assortment of shifting identities the same good faith and credit that they would have done if you'd picked one name and stuck to it.

Well, actually, you could expect it all you wanted (and based on your past performance here, you probably would.)

Actually getting it, though . . . not so much.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:37 PM by Debra Doyle

The neverending trollery....

The only voice worth hearing now is mine,
you have not said one thing to make me think
that in my argument there is a chink
since all you do is complain that I whine.
Of course, I could my words and sense refine
and take a pause to wash and eat and drink,
but then I might miss knowing nod or wink
and that would not be in any form fine.
I've got to force you all to suit my whim,
compel your awe, and see you all bow down
although i've never been an honest guest.
I'll shout and slobber in pretence of vim
disguise the fact that I'm another clown,
and not think for one second I'm a pest.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:39 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Jim @ 139
"[Name of person] a member of [name of denomination] in [city] came was approached by two sisters preaching God's end-time message. [Name of person] said "Take off, lusers!" or words to that effect, and later [Name of person] had a stroke! Whaddaya think about that, eh?"

And even later, [name of person who had a stroke] plagiarized David Gemmel and then was attacked in a Making Light thread!

Jack Ruttan @ 149:
"In the lone writers' workshop I've been to, I was told to stay positive in comments, and that's a good idea in the situation, because we don't want writers storming out of the room in tears."

Heh. I'm in a gradute writing program. The semester I started, I took a course called "Writing for Film" with Irvin Kerschner, and he made not one, not two, but three students cry. None of whom stormed out.

Now, whether or not that's good or bad . . . I've been on the receiving end of criticism. Kersch called one of my scenes "Nothing but 'As you know Bob' expository scientific gobbledygook," which I found amusing, coming as it did from the director of The Empire Strikes Back. In another class, Syd Field basically criticized ten pages of my screenplay for more than an hour, the moneyquote of which was "With all due respect, it's just bullshit," after which he continued to delineate all the ways it was, in point of fact, bullshit.

Wasn't fun, exactly, but I learned way more from those moments than I did when I got feedback like: "These were great pages. Keep writing. But add more subtext."

(my reaction to that is: "WTF is subtext, and can I blow it up?")

Positive comments can be encouraging, but you don't really learn much from "that was awesome." You can learn a bit more from "x worked, and y worked, and I think you should continue in that vein," but I think one learns most from "well, this worked and this worked, but this didn't work, and here's why." Or, anyway, I always have (and yes, of course I know different people learn different ways).

Waayupthread, Ian @ 18 said "that the referenced thread ... started out "My Nebula-award-nominated story...". That sounds self-congratulatory and is likely to attract adverse comment."

Which struck me as odd. "0wnz0red" was nominated for a Nebula (in 2003, for best novelette). Cory, more than congratulating himself, was really just stating a fact.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:40 PM by Will Entrekin

Fragano @203:
I was thinking more about the two reasons you don't mud-wrestle a pig. One, you just get muddy, and two, the pig enjoys it.

There is an interesting discussion to be had about moderation at the beginning of the life of a community, when one must be looking to both the short term (content of the thread) and the long term (tone of the community). Should one take a slightly lax tone to encourage more people to come in? Or a more stern tone, to weed the trolls out until the community can help police itself?

Unfortunately, we're not having that discussion, because we're indulging Quoth the Raven's self-absorption. Waste of bandwidth, IMHO, but I'm enjoying the poetry.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:44 PM by abi

Jim:

Let's do the time warp again. What's your preference, Kingdom Hearts, or with ninjas?*

Note: see also Alice in Wonderland, Tiny Toons, chipmunk speed, Fullmetal Alchemist, Slayers, Sailor Moon (cosplay) Star Trek (classic & Voyager), and of course, The Doctor

Also, disturbed to find the number of music videos synched to "Fergalicious" - using Disney characters.

*honorable mention.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:48 PM by midori

abi #210: What amazes me is the degree of self-absorption some people seem to have. They constantly search the intertubes for references to themselves, since they can only be validated in their own minds if the World Wide Web knows that they can break wind on a variety of subjects.

The poetry is, I think, generally the best part of such discussions.

Posted November 4, 2007 4:50 PM by Fragano Ledgister

You should stop posting such interesting stuff, and people here should stop writing comments that make me laugh; it distracts me from my writing. I'm already behind on Nano.

:)

Posted November 4, 2007 4:53 PM by Gabriele Campbell

#209 Will Entrekin: Come to think of it, the 'positive comment only' policy had us reading volumes into what was said, and we could still be as crazy as we would have been, if ripped into non-passive-aggressively.

I had a producer who would read and say to you "it's goo-od" but you had to watch out for the drawn-out dropping and rising tone, which meant there was a lot of work ahead.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:06 PM by Jack Ruttan

If you want a real person who is beyond belief, check out the world's most Compassionately Whacked Out Liberal Libertarian (TM). At least at Slacktivist, we all think he is a real person - hard as that might be to imagine at times, he has a distinctive style all his own.

Wait a minute! "Never," are you "Scott" on Slackivist? Because that explains a lot in terms of tone and attitude. And honestly, I can only imagine Scott calling Fred (Slackivist) by that sort of ridiculous title. (For those who don't read Slackivist, Scott is a mega-libertarian who brings up points completely irrelevant to the thread with a similar snide attitude.) Of course, Scott only seems to use one name, so perhaps not. But please don't pollute Making Light with your rudeness either way. Even if your points are valid, your attitude in making them is quite condescending, even to people outside of this thread. There was no reason to bring Fred into this.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:06 PM by Shannon

oooooooohhh....
You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd.
You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd.
You can't rollerskate in a buffalo herd.
But you can be happy if you've a mind to.

This, this, thing that is clogging up the thread with pointless blather is choosing to be miserable. I say give it the freedom to be miserable.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:16 PM by Greg London

Jim @ 139 -

[Name of person] a member of [name of denomination] in [city] came was approached by two sisters preaching God's end-time message. [Name of person] said "Take off, lusers!" or words to that effect, and later [Name of person] had a stroke! Whaddaya think about that, eh?

Fred* wrote about that story in his Left Behind series a few weeks ago. Apparently it's one of the prime end-time signals for the dominionists.

*the, um, world's most Compassionately Whacked Out Liberal Libertarian (TM) - nevermore @ 192, announcing that you've managed to pick a fight at Fred's place is not really a great way to make the case that you're wandering around the internet with a lantern looking for reasoned debate.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:24 PM by julia

Person cycling through handles: Blogspot and LiveJournal are still free. If you think there's an audience for what you want to write, go for it! People start up new blogs every single day.

It's just that you're not entitled to Cory's audience, or to Teresa and Patrick's, just because they're in some sense handy.

The rest is just self-justification for stupid bad behavior.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:26 PM by Bruce Baugh

two-hundred posts on this thread, half of which are from one or two people, and their sock puppets, whining endlessly about how they're being censored because their posts are being deleted.

That makes a good 50 or more posts in this thread that all are diligently fighting "the man" and shouting from the rooftops that their posts are being unfairly deleted, that they are suffering the slings and arrows of censorship because their posts are all being deleted for disagreeing.

At what point does irony set in?

I'm just asking, is all.

I mean, does it take a hundred posts that don't get deleted before these yayhoos figure out that they're not getting deleted?

Maybe when CeCe comes back, I'll ask what the ratio for this thread is of posts by people complaining that they're being censored versus total posts in the thread.

I mean seriously, you get some yayhoos who think that CNN suppresses criticism, so they get together and make a commercial that says CNN won't show criticism, then they get that ad played on CNN, and then don't get the irony that they just got criticism aired on CNN?

(at which point, all the trolls are covering their ears going "blah, blah, blah, you keep talking, but I'm not listening, blah, blah, blah")

I almost feel sad for the little creeps.

Almost.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:28 PM by Greg London

Never-whoever's comment @199 is sort of sociologically fascinating* (while also creepifying) as a glimpse at someone who sees the internet as a pool of potential enemies and predators to be thwarted rather than a community to join in. Forgive the hyperbole, but I wonder if such a diametric opposition of assumptions about the virtual space we inhabit renders Never-whoever and people like him conversationally varelse - no real communication possible.

*More fascinating than the review of The Invention of Hugo Cabret that I'm supposed to be writing for class tomorrow, anyway.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:39 PM by Mary Lou Klecha

Rdng Dctrw's lng-wndd "nln cnrshp hrts s ll" ftr ths mshp s rlly n rny mst cn njy.

'm hnstly nt gng t b bl t hv lng cnvrstn wth th ppl t thr wh smhw dn't qt rmvng ll vwls wth cnsrshp. W dsgr t t fndmntl lvl.

T ths wh g n frthr nd cndmn cnsrshp xcpt whn ts ppld t "Scrd", "flms" r "bs", wll, f th cmmnts wr lft ntct rlly dbt y'd b bl t ssgn ny f ths dscrptns t thr tn. Thy wr vry rspctfl, blncd, nd wll-thght t. Vry dsppntng t b blwn t f th cnvrstn wth frhs. Sdly, s tht whn th srcs r fdgd, llgtns g lng wy.

Bt whn tblt th rspnss, vryn nvlvd wth BB r Cry ll sm t ln-p n dfns f t (wht r th dds...). ht t nvk Rmsfld bt t s jst ths srt f clbbshnss mxd wth ntlrnc f cntr-pnts tht mks ths whl ss s plrzng nd dststfl.

Typng knwng tht thr s gd chnc th thghts cmng frm yr hd--whch y fl r gnn, msrd, nd nt htfl--r gng t b dsmssd trght nd cnsrd / rndrd nr-nrdbl s nt nly dshrtnng bt vry txc t th bsc d f cllbrtv, pn, dmcrtc ntrnt, whch s strngly th sbjct f s mch dtrl n ths prts f t.

Sm f y tk strngly Cthlc stnc f "w cmmnt t th bhst f th ns mst hgh, nd w r ndsrvng". Tr ngh, sm blgs dn't ccpt cmmnts. T ths sy chs n, nd f smthng rlly vltl cms lng, by ll mns dlt t. Bt whn yr wn cmmnty gvs y lt f blwbck vr t, hv th dcncy t ntrtn thr cmplnts.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:46 PM by Yeago

Mary Lou Klecha, 220,

I had never heard of The Invention of Hugo Cabret before. Thank you for bubbling something interesting to the surface. (Pity the official site is Flash encrusted.)

Posted November 4, 2007 5:46 PM by midori

Yeago, you demonstrate a common fallacy well with "But when your own community gives you a lot of blowback over it, have the decency to entertain their complaints." There is a tremendous difference between one person saying something a hundred times and a hundred people each saying something similar once. Once the reasons, actually, for stable handles and against sock puppets is that the latter undermine the ability of bystanders to trust what they see. It's a form of ballot box stuffing, basically, from people unwilling to deal with being in the minority on a particular topic or exchange, and preferring the illusion of popularity to accepting reality.

Likewise, the ability to post again and again and again about a subject doesn't tell us what most people think, only that someone posted a lot.

Posted November 4, 2007 5:54 PM by Bruce Baugh

Yeago, 221,
The U.S. Zipcode Database you have in your blog looks pretty interesting. Where did you find it, and what uses are you putting it to? (Seriously, this is a pretty neat bit of datapr0n.)

Posted November 4, 2007 5:55 PM by midori

Once again, trollishness is made to serve a higher purpose as inspiration for poetry and satire. Thanks to all poets here, especially Fragano and Lighthill, and thanks for keyboard liquid-proofness testing to Jim Macdonald* and to Xopher for the rodents. I can't think of a better use for trolls, unless maybe it's to cut them up and make crazy quilts out of them.

* and for a new slant on my very favorite music video.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:00 PM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

#194 ::: Bruce Arthurs winced:
Someone who admits he posts under multiple identities, and not only seems to see nothing wrong with it, but to feel that it's normal.

Hm. I can't say that there's anything wrong with posting under multiple identities in different fora, -in general-. Posting under multiple identities to the same blog and thread, OTOH... that's well into WTF territory.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:01 PM by xeger

Midori @222,

Glad to be of help, or at least of interest! Hugo Cabret is the first book in a long time that I've randomly picked up at a bookstore, flipped through, and then been absolutely unable to walk away from - it's a pretty attractive piece of bookmaking, aside from the actual story. It honestly never occurred to me to look for an official website, though; I've just been looking at reviews on Amazon (sadly, it doesn't currently have a Search Inside option, which might give a better impression of what's so cool about this book).

Posted November 4, 2007 6:11 PM by Mary Lou Klecha

I was going to post this around the time of comment #157, but our (shared) server was having hiccups, and then I had to run off and attend the World Fantasy Awards banquet here in lovely Saratoga Springs.

There's been a certain amount of confusion inside Boing Boing over implementation details, resulting in cockups like the deletion of the first post in the thread about Cory's Swedish translation. This is inevitable when multiple people are using newly hand-rolled software. Also inevitable: people who think every stumble is an example of the violence inherent in the system, help help I'm being repressed. Anyone for whom an argument in a blog comment thread "feels like a middle ages mob in front of the pillory" has left reasonable perspective about six interstate exits behind.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:12 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

As for the rest of it, neverending and his or her many sockpuppet friends: oy gevalt. This is mental illness, and one thing I've learned in my long life is that mental illness is catching. You engage too much with crazy people, and the crazy rubs off. Bruce Arthurs and I have had many occasions to disagree over the years, but he's spot on as far as this particular kook-a-palooza is concerned.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:16 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden

Mary Lou Klecha, 227,

Well the description of the plot plus the length + lots of interior illustrations fills me with hope.* I'm a sucker for illustrated stories, which has led me to read almost exclusively manga (like Fullmetal Alchemist) or webcomics (like Girl Genius). I remember well my disappointment as a child that the older I got, the fewer (and often, worse) the pictures were in the books I read. I have a hunch that I wouldn't have read nearly so much SF in my youth if it hadn't been for the inevitable map a the front of each book.**

Now that I think about it, my delayed entry into hard SF probably had a lot to do with dull, uninformative illustrations. Have I mentioned, that as a reader, I despise inaccurate cover art? Sorry. Rant over.

*last February ‡, there was a rumor Sorsese was going to direct an adaptation(!)
**the imagination needs some seed to grow upon, aside from the text.
‡ I wonder why I don't pronounce the R in that month?

Posted November 4, 2007 6:22 PM by midori

Yeago@221: it is just this sort of clubbishness mixed with intolerance of counter-points that makes this whole issue so polarizing and distasteful.

Yes, we understand, you find us clubbish, intolerant, polarizing, and distasteful. Message received. The thread is full of posts by you saying how Making Light doesn't allow criticism, the irony of which still escapes you.

Anything else?

Unless you want us to throw ourselves on our swords or something, I think you've pretty much covered everything.

Must we confess to your accusations before you'll leave? Or can you tolerate dissent and allow us to disagree with your opinion of us?

Posted November 4, 2007 6:25 PM by Greg London

#209 (my reaction to that is: "WTF is subtext, and can I blow it up?")

Subtext is a vulgar heresy. The belief in the real existence of subtext is a sign of insanity.

Thus, no, you cannot blow it up. Only real things can be exploded.

Myths can be exploded. Therefore myths are real.

Subtext does not rise to the level of "myth."

Posted November 4, 2007 6:32 PM by James D. Macdonald

never-thing 199: My children have free Internet access - no filters (I'm likely a really bad parent in your eyes too) - but they have it drilled into them to never use their own name, e-mail etc. Especially at any site that aggregates data - as has been proven that this site does. And they should never have the same 'identity' - if only to stop the marketers from easily collecting data.

O my gods.

Yeah, you're a bad parent in my eyes, but not because you don't filter the internet from your kids. I think you're a bad parent because you're teaching your kids to be paranoid nutbars like you.

But then, I guess it would be pretty unusual for an abusive, obnoxious, troublemaking, rude fugghead troll like you to be a good parent, so I'm not surprised.

But seriously...you're in tinfoil-hat land. I hope your kids eventually recover from the damage you're doing them every day.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:34 PM by Xopher

Sockpuppets are a foe the like which Hercules would know;
a Hydra-headed monster looking for a place to crow.
What nonsense comes from many mouths they hold to be a truth.
But those who have to listen just feel that it's uncouth.

"Stay thy sword!" the heads all shout, "do not my posts delete!"
"You must allow the multitude to hear my grand conceit!"
"Removing all the vowels as well would be just immature."
"Besides," they say, "without them, I'll lose my bingo score."

The Moderator takes no note, she's heard it in the past.
It all comes down to trollishness, impoliteness unsurpassed.
So many heads have reared up now the point is hard to see.
She'll cut off one or two of them to be replaced by three.

Eventually the socks run out or get lost in the wash;
'Cause no one's even listening to all the puppet tosh.
The threads have turned the trollery to poems and to song,
The monsters all have gone away, their act has got the gong.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:35 PM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Never-whatever,

Let me help you out for a second. Every webpage, blog, forum, etc. you visit has the potential to collect and aggregate data regarding the visitors and commentors to the site. Every server has access logs, which collect the IP addresses of everyone who has visited the website. You see, the site must have your IP address in order to push out content to you. Most of the blog and forum software I've dealt with records the IP address of each poster, specifically for moderation and preventing abuse.

So I don't really see your point about using multiple identities. How does this help? 'They' are still going to know who you are and what you said. You cannot hide from 'Them'.

If you are really worried about blog owners collecting data about you and selling it to marketers or the government or whoever, the only 100% effective method is to STFU. Otherwise, you may as well give them your name and address, because they can get that info without your consent, anyway.

What you said smells like a steaming pile of crap anyway, but I figured I'd help out, just in case online security is an actual concern of yours.

Posted November 4, 2007 6:58 PM by CosmicDog

Shorter CosmicDog: "Never-whatever...STFU...you steaming pile of crap."

Posted November 4, 2007 7:03 PM by Xopher

Oops. Should be an ellipsis between 'you' and 'steaming'. Xopher regrets the error.

Posted November 4, 2007 7:04 PM by Xopher

Hey, by the way, the disemvowelled post, the one that started it all from Flying Squid, is back up on BB.

BngBng sms t hv bcm fr y mstly PR vhcl fr yr strs. 'm sr y r bsltly thrlld vry tm n f yr strs gts trnsltd nt nthr lngg, bt t m, t jst sms lk ndlss slf-ggrndzng.

"...but to me, it seems like endless self-aggrandizing."

Calling someone self-aggrandizing in his own blog is not polite, calm, reasonable, or any other of the words used to defend the comment and fight against censorship. It's not criticism, either. It's just a rude comment. The fact that the commentor calls it 'honest criticism' does not make it so.

Why not just send Cory an e-mail, instead of posting it for everyone to read, if not to build support for your perspective and/or start some shit. Neither of which falls under the umbrella of 'criticism'.

Posted November 4, 2007 7:21 PM by CosmicDog

There once was a troll from Nantucket,
whose posts were as vile as a muck bucket.
He posted far and wide.
The moderators he would deride:
Don't censor my sock puppets!

Posted November 4, 2007 7:26 PM by Greg London

There once was a troll from Nantucket,
whose posts were as vile as a muck bucket.
He posted far and wide.
The moderators he would deride:
Don't censor my sock puppets!

Posted November 4, 2007 7:27 PM by Greg London

Greg #165: You can't say Making Light has an issue with disagreement, then point to a thread where I disagreed and was never disemvoweled or deleted and say that's proof of intolerance, and say that's an example of a minority opinion being disallowed.

That's not what I meant to say. I meant that the disagreement seemed to dominate the thread in that one case. People were trying to get back on track, but it certainly killed my enjoyment, at least.

And seeing this going on, one is a little less eager to venture into the conversation, for fear of getting singled out, too.

Posted November 4, 2007 7:37 PM by Jack Ruttan

There once was a troll from Nantucket,
whose posts were as vile as a muck bucket.
He posted far and wide.
The moderators he would deride:
Don't censor my sock puppets!

Posted November 4, 2007 7:38 PM by Greg London

Terribly off-topic for Mary Lou and Midori:

Hugo Cabret looks wonderful-- I recently had that same experience Mary Lou described with The City of Dreaming Books . It's whimsical and gruesome and all about loving books and words and reading. It also has many fabulous illustrations, so I thought I should share, just in case you haven't encountered it yet!

Posted November 4, 2007 8:18 PM by Lisa Spadafora

#170 (Individ-ewe-al) and some following point out a contradiction that had been bothering me; the analogy between visiting/speaking at a blog, and at a home, breaks down when the blog is selling advertising, which gains an iota of its worth from my presence.

(At least, I have never considered invitations to be sold plasticware/timeshares/Landmark anything but shaky imitations of social life. Of course it's natural to have one's professional and personal lives intersect, but it's also naturally fraught and vexed.)

So semi-professional blogs are veering, more or less weakly depending on their success, into a different patch of the "Voice, choice, or exit" continuum. No party involved should be allowed to hop between definitions to gain advantage; most humans will try to instinctively; and we'll usually disagree about where on the continuum a blog is, let alone what OK behavior is.

Posted November 4, 2007 8:20 PM by clew

'endless' could also be 'needless'.

It doesn't really change the tone of the comment or my point, but I just noticed that and figured I'd call myself on it before someone else did.

Posted November 4, 2007 8:21 PM by CosmicDog

221: to take that article on online censorship as an 'irony' when viewed in the light of this thread is a bit absurd, I think. That article referred to artists and their work, which is quite pointedly not what is occurring here (although never-whatever's sock-puppetry and most of the posts in this thread do seem to nearly elevate trolling to an art [for varying defintions of 'art'. Seems it's really like that Virgin Mary painted with dung fiasco a few years back; you can call it art if you like, but it still doesn't make it any good]).

I've reread the BoingBoing post several times, and I can't for the life of me think of it as self-congratulatory nor self-aggrandizing. I'm not familiar with Cory's work save Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom, but characterizing him as an 'enthusiast' seems terrifically appropriate. The tone I got from the post was nothing so much as "Hey, this neat-o story I wrote just got translated! How rad is that?"

To which I say: rock on. Rock on indeed.

But there's something else: given the sock-puppetry, I wonder if this is all the work of one troll named Scott who posted first as "FlyingSquid" and who also frequents the Slacktivist. It seems that much of the argument in the comments section of the original BoingBoing post cites "honest" or "balanced" criticism, as if calling someone "self-aggrandizing" is actually either. I know the IP addresses mightn't match, but given the comments made here by never-whoever, I'm not sure it matters.

Jim @ 232:

Posts like that are precisely the reason I've convinced at least half of the USC writing program to read Making Light. The other half; well, I think our program is unique in that the work is so divided and just about anyone can find a home. Sure, there are the smaller, more "literary" stories one might find in MFA programs, but me, I've been writing about time machines and vampires and things that go boom in the night as long as I've been there.

Jack @ 241:

I understand the sentiment, but one guest to another, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm often intimidated by the sheer number of distinctly intelligent people who frequent this site (to be honest, I sometimes feel like the kid who scored a place at the adult table), but rarely do I feel unwelcome to contribute (and heck, even the moments I lodge my foot in my mouth [which doesn't happen often only because I don't post often], people are generally pretty understanding). I think it's at least partially because the one thing that gets singled out is not ignorance but rather rudeness. Everyone's ignorant about something, but not everybody feels the need to be an asshole about it.

Posted November 4, 2007 8:35 PM by Will Entrekin

CosmicDog 238: I agree with your analysis, but I doubt the steaming piles of crap will.

Posted November 4, 2007 8:42 PM by Xopher

"neverending_deletions" (174):

Actually, those are only a few of my posts here - do you honestly think I post from a single address? (Though it looks like the IP tracking is pretty good - and notice 50% of my posts concern data retention and freedom.) I have been posting here for years - and you can only find 4 of them?

I have to leave right now. Yog, Avram -- if either of you feel like disemvowelling yon self-confessed liar, do please.

Posted November 4, 2007 8:56 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Yee gawds. Sorry about the triplicate post! It was maybe funny enough for half a posting. No where near as good as the Time Warp revamp.

My internet exhaust port seems to be packed with lint and I haven't cleaned the trap lately.

Posted November 4, 2007 9:12 PM by Greg London

Greg 249:

(Christopher, remembering that Greg is straight, thinks better of making "tailpipe" jokes.)

Posted November 4, 2007 9:15 PM by Xopher

;)

Posted November 4, 2007 9:25 PM by Greg London

Will @ #246

I wrote that, decided not to post it, then pushed the wrong button after previewing because something was neglected on the stove. Oh, well.

Something I shouldn't do, which I did on the old usenet "writing" group was to write in and complain the discussion wasn't to my liking.

Well, back to poetry, cats, and knitting for me (at least the first two).

Posted November 4, 2007 9:53 PM by Jack Ruttan

Nevereverwhatever @ 199: My children have free Internet access - no filters (I'm likely a really bad parent in your eyes too) - but they have it drilled into them to never use their own name, e-mail etc. Especially at any site that aggregates data - as has been proven that this site does. And they should never have the same 'identity' - if only to stop the marketers from easily collecting data.

Try this instead; it's quicker:

Ingredients

2 cups packed brown sugar
3 cups all-purpose flour
1 tablespoon baking soda
2 tablespoons ground cinnamon
2 tablespoons ground cloves
2 tablespoons ground allspice
2 tablespoons ground nutmeg
4 eggs
2 tablespoons lemon zest
2 tablespoons vanilla extract
1/2 cup brandy
1 1/2 cups raisins
1 1/2 cups chopped nuts
1 1/2 cups dried mixed fruit
1 1/2 cups butter, melted
1 3/4 cups brandy

DIRECTIONS
Preheat oven to 225 degrees F (110 degrees C). Grease and flour a tube pan.
In a large bowl, combine sugar, flour, soda, spices, eggs, lemon rind, vanilla, 1/2 cup brandy, fruit, nuts, and melted butter or margarine. Mix thoroughly. Pour into prepared pan.
Bake for 1 hour, or until a tester inserted in the center comes out clean. Cool on a wire rack.
Wrap cooled cake in foil. Sprinkle 2 tablespoons brandy over the cake everyday for 2 weeks.

Posted November 4, 2007 10:39 PM by Paul Duncanson

Paul 253: Elegant.

Posted November 4, 2007 10:56 PM by Xopher

Lisa Spadafora, 243
Terribly off-topic for Mary Lou and Midori:
Off topic? This is Sparrrtaaaaa!, er, Making Light. Nothing's off topic, it is merely exposition!

I recently had that same experience Mary Lou described with The City of Dreaming Books . It's whimsical and gruesome and all about loving books and words and reading. It also has many fabulous illustrations, so I thought I should share, just in case you haven't encountered it yet!
I had not yet. Now it is on my Amazon wishlist, as a reminder to find it. (Hmm. I wonder if my new library has a wishlist function. That would be a useful bit of Web 2.0)*

*Question for copy editors: I think the construction "Web 2.0." with the period arriving after the 0 due to the end of the sentence looks awkward. Is there a preferred usage other than rewriting?

Posted November 4, 2007 11:00 PM by midori

Midori: nothing helps but rewriting.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:09 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

midori (#255): Since in my opinion "Web 2.0" should always have the scare quotes, and because I use logical punctuation rather than typesetters' style, I'd write that as:

That would be a useful bit of "Web 2.0".

Of course, I'm not a copy editor. This may be a good thing.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:15 PM by Christopher Davis

Greg London, 249,
My internet exhaust port seems to be packed with lint and I haven't cleaned the trap lately.

Midori: Pardon me for asking, sir, but what good are snub limericks going to be against that?

Greg: Well, the Piñata doesn't consider a small one-man posts to be any threat, or they'd have a tighter defense. An analysis of the ip addresses provided by Princess Nielsen Hayden has demonstrated a weakness in the battle station.

The approach will not be easy. You are required to maneuver straight down this thread and skim the text to this point. The target area is only two paragraphs wide. It's a small internet exhaust port, right below the main port. The shaft leads directly to the humor system. A precise hit will start a chain reaction which should
destroy the keyboard.

A murmer* of disbelief runs through the room.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:18 PM by midori

Midori @ 258: That's impossible, even for a man from Nantucket.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:22 PM by Paul Duncanson

There's an impression I get from the rants of some fans who feel a strong sense of entitlement, more a vibe I guess, that disturbs me deeply. It may be just that my antennae are a little too sensitive, and it's just my imagination running away with me, so I'd like to describe it and see if anyone else gets the same feeling, or if I need an antenna realignment. Pardon me if this description isn't as clear as it might be; I'm trying to translate a feeling I've gotten into words that make sense, for the first time, and I might get it a bit confused.

ISTM that the reaction of such a fan to a blogger or other writer who doesn't jump through hoops to provide whatever content the fan wants is very similar to the reaction of some customers of prostitutes when the prostitute tries to place limits on the kind of services provided or acts performed. The thinking, as I see it, is that anyone who provides pleasure or entertainment to another is in some sense selling themselves, and such a sale cannot, by its nature, have any limits.

Similarly, if you give something away, you're in some sense submitting yourself to the recipient, maybe subjugating would be a better word, and they have the right to demand more and better. I want to be clear that I think this notion is outright batshit lunacy, but I know it exists in the case of some customers of prostitutes*, and I get the impression of it in some of the things that this sort of fan says.

So, am I overly sensitive or maybe in need of a new foil hat, or has someone else felt this too?

* and sexual predators and criminals of other sorts, too.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:29 PM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

midori@258, now that's funny.

;)

Posted November 4, 2007 11:33 PM by Greg London

Paul Duncanson, 259:
It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye BBS Π-rats in my TRS-eighty back home. They're not much bigger than two paragraphs.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:38 PM by midori

Pyre: I got my Medal (w/ V device) for Sino-Nasal Liquid Retention when I was about 20.

My girlfriend (with whom the sexual aspects of our relationship had recently begun) told me her father wanted to meet me, and so we went to his place for dinner.

Over the course of same various stories were told, one of which was my girldfriend telling him (a few years earlier, when she was about 16) that she was going to her boyfriends place, and wouldn't be back until morning.

He then said, "I knew, when the doctor handed me a baby girl that someday she was gonna get laid."

I damn near shot '79 bordeaux across the table cloth. I think he may have timed the comment to just when I was drinking on purpose.

That training is the only reason I've not lost a couple of keyboards.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:46 PM by Terry Karney

Some notes before I quit tonight:
A murmer* of disbelief runs through the room.
is [sic]. The spelling, and the mental image.

Greg, 261
Thank you!

Bruce Cohen, 260,
I agree with the general thrust of your argument. If you haven't read it yet, check out the essay I linked early on in the discussion. Precisely this kind of problem of entitlement has been a problem for the webcomics community for many years. I would love to discuss it further, and I can provide examples. Just not now :)

257, Chris Davis,
Thank you for the example, that was interesting. Do scare quotes always take "double" quotes, or do you sometime use 'single' ones? I would have thought single was more akin to how quotes are used to delineate an example of a word rather than a verbatim quote.

256, Teresa Nielsen Hayden,
Ah, that's what I thought. Thank you.

Posted November 4, 2007 11:49 PM by midori

258 - 262

I'd say y'all owed me a new keyboard, but in fact I'd swallowed before I got to that point in the thread. [LOL!]

Posted November 4, 2007 11:49 PM by P J Evans

#265 ::: P J Evans, 265,
Yay! I wins teh internets!

Well, you know, you could continue the theme...a reference text to abuse exists here

...I mean, we haven't gotten anywhere near "Evacuate now? In our moment of triumph?"

Posted November 5, 2007 12:02 AM by midori

Midori @ 266: The exact same link is open here in another window... but I am supposed to be working right now.

Good luck, and may the Verse be with you.

Posted November 5, 2007 12:13 AM by Paul Duncanson

Why the disemvowellings? Not because we don't allow criticism. Really, what pushed it over the line was the hydra casually confessing that he constantly posts under false names.

Does anyone here need an explanation for why that makes me feel like I neither need nor want to read his comments?

Posted November 5, 2007 12:19 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

#260: I think it's "The customer's always right" gone amok. It's become a case of "I'm paying you money, therefore I should get whatever I want." (This is as opposed to whatever the person has actually contracted for.)

My parents first opened up a restaurant when I was 7. They finally sold the business and retired when I was 25. This means I'd been doing service sector work since around the age of 10 or so. I like to think I have some experience behind me when I say this:

The customer is not always right.

Just because you're paying money in exchange for goods or services does not suddenly make you incapable of being unreasonable. However, there are people who think precisely this. That they have handed over their coin allows them to have their way with whom they've paid.

These are people who get righteously angry because Apple has the gall to lower the price of iPhone, even though they bought it at what they had considered a fair price. (If they hadn't considered it a fair price, then why did they choose to pay that much for a cell phone?)

So, yes, these are the people who get angry because a blogger didn't blog about what they wanted to read. (Wouldn't it be more sensible just to read a blogger who is blogging about what you want to read instead? It's not like there is a shortage of blogs.)

Interestingly, this ties into the discussion about who owns the characters in published works. Lots of fans clearly feel they do. So they get annoyed at the author for going in directions they would not have. (Again, in that case, wouldn't it be less stressful just to ignore the author and go on your own alternate path? Or read works which don't annoy you?)

I don't have the historical perspective to know if it has always been like this. However, I do see it everywhere.

[BTW, just so I don't get taken as espousing an extreme position: Obviously, if you are poorly served, or the other side doesn't live up to its end of the contract, complain away and get restitution. I'm talking about people who've gotten what they've asked for, what they said they wanted, then it suddenly turns out not to be enough. I said the customer is not always right, not that the customer is always wrong.]

Posted November 5, 2007 12:31 AM by John Chu

Midori @ 255: my first question as a copy editor would've been "What's Web 2.0? So far as I know, the Internet isn't software, and can't come with a latest version. Was there a beta, and can we expect a version 2.1, or perhaps Web 2.0 SP1? If not, please use more specific terminology."

But then again, I was copy editor for a psychiatric nursing journal, which just goes to further show what do I know, anyway?

Teresa @ 268: can I speak for lots of people to say "'Course not"?

Posted November 5, 2007 12:53 AM by Will Entrekin

This thread is muy disturbing.

The notion that all this is due to one guy, posting from different IPs with different names -- that's just kinda scary. And I've been around the Internet for a long time now (not, like, since BBS days, just since 1994 on a professional basis) and I've seen some scary, but this guy makes me shudder. Reminds me a lot of my dad when he's drinking, the weave-and-bob and changing the subject without saying so, and crap like that.

My kids have free Net access, too, and no filters, and nothing except their word that they won't give contact information without asking me first. And they do. But frankly? I don't worry about it, because the Internet is not actually that dangerous -- physically. But Patrick, you're right about the crazy rubbing off. I can feel a little slick coating on my neurons tonight.

Anyway. Entertaining! Not always the way you imagined it, but ... entertaining.

Posted November 5, 2007 1:01 AM by Michael Roberts

Teresa @ 268: Does anyone here need an explanation for why that makes me feel like I neither need nor want to read his comments?
Of course not. Alas, that doesn't mean some jerk won't come along and demand one with a side of undeserved apology.

Previous hydra comments cause me to have this strange vision of you pulling the sock off Neverwhatsit's hand to reveal five fingerpuppets, all babbling the same nonsense.

Posted November 5, 2007 1:07 AM by Paul Duncanson