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January 24, 2008

Open thread C
Posted by Abi Sutherland at 06:10 PM *

Quod omnia vetera nova sunt.

Aliqui illustres loci communes:

  1. Timendum non est me mihi‡. Timor mentem caedet. Timor mortulus qui totam lituram ferat. Obviam timore meo ibo. Me transire et perire sinam. Et cum transiverit oculo interiore viam suam perspiciam. Ubi timor iit, nil erit. Ego solus manebo.

  2. Lux laeva obscuritatis
    et obscuritas dextra lucis.
    Duo unus sunt, vita morsque, iacens
    una quasi amatores kemmerentes
    quasi manus conjuncti
    quasi finis viaque.

  3. Inane…ultimus limes. Hi cursi navis stellis Inceptis Incepti‡. Eius quinquennialum munus: insolitos novos mundos explorare, vitam novam civitatesque novas quaerere, ubi nemo ante ivit intrepide ire.*

  4. Reginula aurea volavit
    Ad marem mare‡ sibulans
    Ut sinas obsteterit
    Et ova servaverit
    Fortiter audivit ea.

  5. Numen Iedaio vim suum dat. Ager vigoris est qui omnia viva creat. Nos circumfundit penetratque. Omnes res conligat.

  6. Via semper usque it
    Unde coepit ianuae.
    Nunc longe Via praeivit,
    Et persequi, si possum,
    Avidis debeo pedibus,
    Dum maioram iungietur
    In munerum coetu.
    Et quoquo tunc? Nescio.

  7. Semper ius fas‡ puerum puerorum† stultorumque est imperatorem sine veste monstrare. Sed stultus manet stulto stultus‡ imperatorque imperatore imperator‡.

  8. Filia sum regis
    Et si curare curem
    Luna indominata
    In crinem coruscet.
    Nemo amare audet
    Quod avere opto
    Numquam egevi
    Et non tenui.

    Filia sum regis
    Et veteresco intra
    Carcerem corporis
    Compedesque cutis.
    Et ego fugam
    Ad ianuasque mendicem
    Ut umbram tuam videam
    Semel nec iterum.

  9. Portus Porta† hostium deorsum.

  10. Amor. Si omnes numeres ‘Versi sciens inamandum navem in aerem fers, ea certe ut mundi convertunt te decutet. Amor eam in aeram cadendam tenet doloremque ante vagens dicit. Domus facit.

Agnoscite, reddite, addite, gaudete. Lex Calvinballis pertinet. Omnias coniecturas ROT-13ite.

* Serge, hic tuo

** Gratias ago tibi, David

† Gratias ago vobis, Nancy et Chris


Subicit Patricius:

  1. Ne Noli‡ armato merdam iace iacere‡.
  2. Ne Noli‡ iuxta armato merdam iacendem sta stare‡.

‡ Gratias ago tibi, dido.

Comments on Open thread C:
#1 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:04 PM:

Carpe Diem... Fish die.

#2 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:05 PM:

Domino
Domino
Oreo
Nabisco

#3 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:06 PM:

Quo modo suspendent?

et Io secundus.

#4 ::: Ben ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:07 PM:

Me placet hoc.

#5 ::: debcha ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:11 PM:

I think this is pretty much all the Latin I know: Tabula materna combusta est ("my motherboard is fried").

#6 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:13 PM:

Drat, redux, Io tertius

#7 ::: Ulrika O'Brien ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:13 PM:

Ne obliviscaris: don't be oblivious.

et

En robore, virtu: Robbery is good, trees are swell

#8 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:18 PM:

1. Qhar
2. Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff
3. Fgne Gerx
4.?
5. Fgne Jnef
6. Ybeq bs gur Evatf
7. V qba'g xabj, ohg V yvxr vg!
8. Gur Ynfg Havpbea
9. ?
10. Sversyl?

#9 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:19 PM:

Those are lovely. I name no names.

#10 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:20 PM:

Genug Latein, diesen Spiel zu spielen (oder ja verstehen!), habe ich nicht. Schade.

Ich werde mit Ihnen spielen vielleicht in GG* 101 (oder vielleicht CI), und mit Ihnen sprechen wenn GG C dreht sich zum Englisch um. Wenn das geschieht.


*geöffnetes Gewinde

#11 ::: mjfgates ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:21 PM:

I'm supposed to start babbling from the Latin version of "Green Eggs and Ham", or failing that dump a few lines of lorem ipsum, but I find that I can't remember either. Also, is lorem ipsum a particular work, a bit of literature in a language that happens not to exist, in which case I should call it "Lorem Ipsum?" Or is it more of a substance, one commonly found in desktop-publishing ads and the Sims?

In other news, the work crew has finished taking down the poplars in the back of the parking lot, and is now enjoying a well-earned coffee break fifty feet up on the cherry picker.

#12 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:32 PM:

And of course, right after posting that I got #3, then #1 and #2. And I'm pretty sure I know what the last two sentences at the bottom mean.

#13 ::: Zeynep ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:32 PM:

I will come back here and try to decipher them later, since right now I do not have the time, but I will have to pause and remark on how much I appreciated the laugh from realizing you conjugated "ROT-13".

#14 ::: Piscusfiche ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:34 PM:

Crescit sub pondere virtus.

(Actually, it doesn't really. If that's what I think it is, I memorised it because it was the putative family motto of T.E. Lawrence's family.)

I know almost no Latin, sadly.

#15 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:38 PM:

mjfgates, Lorem Ipsum is the much-mutated descendant of a passage from a work by Cicero, which by longstanding tradition is used by designers as placeholder text.

#16 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:42 PM:

#2
vel
Dominos
Oreos
Nabiscos
Fig Newtons.

---
I recognize seven of the ten. Without help.

#17 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:43 PM:

Much like xkcd, Making Light can be significantly smarter than I am. I had no idea what was going on for quite some time, and still can't do more than look at the words 'Calvinballis' and 'ROT-13ite' and grin.

#18 ::: g ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:44 PM:

To Lila's selection I add: #9 Raqre'f Tnzr. And also, regarding the same one (let the reader understand!) the number 241.

#19 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:45 PM:

TNH @15:

I didn't realize it came from Cicero. Any idea what text?

#21 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:49 PM:

Is it a bad sign that I was wondering why we'd be discussing something quite as specific as a new threads library for C ?

#22 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:49 PM:

Props for some skilled blog-moderation:

Over on John Shirley's blog, Shirley is dealing with a mentally ill visitor in a most helpful, straight-forward, reasonable way.

#23 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:49 PM:

My former boss posted the Latin motto "Carpe diem, quam minimum credulo postero" and gave its meaning as "Sieze the day and trust as little as possible to the future."

I said that it would be more in character for him if it meant, "It's a crappy day, and I believe that I have a small posterior."

#24 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:50 PM:

Zeynep: Properly, she declined it. Verbs conjugate, nouns decline. I sent a note to S. King once, because he said his grandmother could conjugate a Latin noun on her deathbed.

I did, however, once decline BBS into the dativ, in russian. Sasha Volokh liked that a lot.

#25 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:51 PM:

Lila: those look right to me.

Septem Arvy Tnvzna est. Et novem Befba Fpbgg Pneq.

Or are classicists banned?

#26 ::: Sajia Kabir ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:53 PM:

I know no Latin but what I can infer from English etymological origins. So instead I shall post a sestina I wrote sometime ago:

Making Mars A Woman

This world – we came here in vitro –
Cold and dry as a coelacanth fossil,
Yet red with blood’s pigment.
In this land of winter we search for ice and snow
To force these deserts to flower
– to make this man our mother.

We search for the fossils
Of those we would supplant; maybe a trace of pigment,
Yeti tracks on Olympus snows –
Something that might be the ancestor of a flower –
Proof that this man was once a mother –
Could life be brought back in vitro ?

We paint this world with other pigments –
Blacken with mine-dust the crystalline snow.
Dig up cliffsides to plant foreign flowers.
Talk on the net to our abandoned mothers.
So many of us could only conceive in vitro,
Others leave behind space-suit fossils.

The heat of our reactors melts the salt-white snow,
Yet not enough heat to open wide these flowers –
So cold my hand, trying to mother
Germ-plasm of fauna and flora in vitro.
Wonder if our grandchildren’s grandchildren will make fossil
Imprints on a landscape where we’ve muddied up the pigments.

Radiation wilted the first surface flowers.
This is not a safe world for children; still mothers
Sing of hope from outposts in vitro.
Hope that finds order in fossils,
A hope of order in mingled and separated pigments,
A hope as bright as the fading snow.

I have looked for a way for this soil to feed mothers,
For our lives to emerge from in vitro.
To shatter without shame the dust of fossils,
Prism rust into a million variable pigments.
To bring out edelweiss from beneath the virgin snow –
Touch carelessly that second flower.

#27 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:54 PM:

abi@19: It's a very garbled version of a passage from De Finibus - if you google "De Finibus" + "dolorem ipsum" you will find it quickly enough. It's a very nice couple of sentences, actually.

#28 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:55 PM:

No, Terry, I think she conjugated it. She was using ROT-13 as a verb. I'm not sure of the infinitive (the Latin, friends with me she is not). Something like ROT-13er?

#29 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:55 PM:

Terry @24:
Actually, I verbed* the noun and conjugated it. That's the plural imperative of *ROT13io, *ROT13ere, a third-conjugation i-stem verb.

----
* because I am evil

#30 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:57 PM:

Terry, 24: No, Zeynep was correct--ROT-13 began its existence as a noun, but abi verbed it (thereby weirding the language. But in this crowd that's a feature.)

#31 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:58 PM:

Quinquennialum by itself was enough to give away #3 to me.

Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

#32 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 06:59 PM:

Drat, g got it first: #9, Raqre'f Tnzr.

I will add, mysteriously, that Abi's prediction was fulfilled.

#33 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:00 PM:

Quinquennialum by itself was enough to give away #3 to me.

Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

#34 ::: Tim Walters ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:01 PM:

Latin is all Greek to me.

#35 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:03 PM:

Sajia Kabir @26:

Lovely! I've never dared a sestina.

#36 ::: ctate ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:05 PM:

"Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

#37 ::: Summer Storms ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:07 PM:

Dammit, I knew I was making a mistake by not taking Latin in high school when I had the chance!

#38 ::: Alberto ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:10 PM:

All I got on my own were I and III.

That's what I get for taking Attic Greek instead of classical Latin. (Not that it would have helped me, sadly--it's been so long.)

#39 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:11 PM:

candle @25:
Classicists are welcome, of course. So are further translations of other works, into any and all languages invented and evolved.

There is one passage* that I considered and decided not to. Google "terra Mordoris" and see why.

-----
* two, actually; Patrick suggested the agnostic's prayer from Creatures of Light and Darkness, but it has too many dependent clauses. It ate my brain.

#40 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:13 PM:

My French, Spanish and Russian (none of them real good anymore anyway) don't help worth a darn.

#41 ::: Paul Duncanson ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:16 PM:

Will this be the last open thread or do we have a way of exceeding c?

#42 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:18 PM:

Summer Storms (37): I did take Latin in high school, but not enough stuck to be of any real use here.

Can we get a translation into English at some point? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

#43 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:19 PM:

Paul Duncanson @41:
do we have a way of exceeding c?

Wormholes. Warp drives. Teleportation. This is science fiction. We can do anything with a doubletalk generator and a handful of Corbomite.

#44 ::: Sajia Kabir ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:19 PM:

Thank you, Abi. Your praise means a lot to me, as I am in awe of your ability to spin gold out of straw in mere minutes.

#45 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:26 PM:

Ars est pecunia.

#46 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:30 PM:

Mary Aileen @42:
The numbered passages are all Latin translations of passages from science fiction or fantasy works. I see that most of the sources have been identified in the ROT-13 entries above, to one extent or another. There is of course room for people to add precisely which bit within the work I used.

(I note that no one has guessed 4 yet.)

Most of the passages have a key word or two that can help you find out what they are. (The first one is particularly good example, and Alan Beatty @33 highlights the key word in 3.)

Feel free to baffle me back. I speak a little Spanish and a smidgen of Dutch, and can competently write simple programs in C#, Cobol and Rexx. Beyond that, though, I am open to bafflement and confusion.

#47 ::: Eleanor ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:31 PM:

7) Gur Xvaqyl Barf

Gosh. Did "barf" get onto the ROT-13 word pairs thread?

#48 ::: Tania ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:38 PM:

#4 maks me think of Crea, but I don't think that's right.

#1 is a favorite of members of my household, I recognized it immediately. The others took a bit of thinking, but that's what I like about things here. ML keeps my brain from getting too flabby.

#49 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:38 PM:

abi (46): Thank you. I did figure out that much from the ensuing discussion. But I still want to know what the *words* are.

I suspect I won't be much use at baffling back. I know enough German to figure out what Xopher said in #10, but not enough to compose a coherent sentence. How about some Igpay Atinlay? ;)

#50 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:43 PM:

Tania (48): I think you're right about Crea. At least, that was my wild guess.

#51 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:46 PM:

One of the most amusing mis-using of latin was the "Latin" name for "Enzyte". suffragium asotus Which is gibberish.

It might be an attempt to say, suffragor asotis (aid/help to the dissipated), but it's not. Suffragium is, "vote Asotas was a loan word from the Greek ("more debauched than an asotus Cicero), as a second declension noun. It meant, sensualist, Libertine.

It's most commonly found, for us, as a stock character in Cynthia's Revels by Ben Johnson, or in the Dutch plays, such as that of the Dutch schoolmasters (e.g. Gnaephus, Macropedius). It also shows up in the German "Everyman" plays.

It's right up there with Dannon telling us they have, Bifidus regularis and that it's a special culture. Depending on where you buy the stuff, the name is different (e.g. Bifidus lactis in Canada) Dannon, in response to momre spefic queries says the strain is a proprietary strain of Bifidobacterium What's really special is the package doesn't really specify the differene, it just lists Bifidobacterium as one of the three strains of probiotic culture. Which is in lots of other foods (including some soy milks)

The evidence is, that the strain they have is tougher than most (CR reports that .1 percent of the bacteria survive the stomach), more to the point, the sales of the yogurt (which costs more to the tune of about 30 percent).

Latin, even when bastardised, it's still got punch

#52 ::: Patrick Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:48 PM:

There's never a bad time to link to The Bible in Pig Latin. "It is my sincere hope that this work will be of value to scholars, researchers, native speakers of Pig Latin, and all those who wish to further their understanding of scripture by seeing it presented in new terms. As it is said, In-ay e-thay eginning-bay as-way e-thay Ord-way."

#53 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:51 PM:

Sajia #26: That's lovely. I, like Abi, have never dared the sestina, and I envy your facility and felicity with it.

#54 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:51 PM:

Dude! I am awesome! I got 1 and 4 and 9 and now feel extremely smart and moderately well-read. Even if it did take a context note (thank you, Abi. I couldn't tell there was a game at first, and couldn't tell you what it was even when I knew it was there).

#4: Naar ZpPnsserl, Qentbafvatre, "Gur yvggyr dhrra nyy tbyqra / syrj uvffvat ng gur frn / gb fgbc rnpu jnir / ure pyhgpu gb fnir / fur iragherq oeniryl."

Rather, I got the first two lines. My key was the second.

#55 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:54 PM:

C... Let's see...

Greetings. I am the Count. Do you know why they call me the Count? Because I love to count things!... One! Two! Three! Bwahahahah!!!

#56 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:54 PM:

Abi, I'm curious as to why 'Inane' (which, if I read it correctly, means 'the empty') and not 'Infinitum'?

#57 ::: ctate ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:55 PM:

4. (community effort) Qentbafbat rgp

#58 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:56 PM:

abi 43: There's also C+, and C++.

And though it's partially spoiled already, I'll add a line from the Monk's aria in "Hansel and Gretel and Ted and Alice" by PDQ Bach: "Caveat Nabisco Mausoleum."

And throw in
"Kriste!
Kriste!
Jesu H. Kriste!"
(Missa Hilarious) for free.

#59 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 07:59 PM:

Serge #45:

That reminds me of Punch's celebrated comment on the death of a young man named John Henry Longbottom: Vita summa brevis, ars longa.

#60 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:01 PM:

Fragano @56:
It depends on your view of the thing, really. I see it as a vast emptiness, emphasis on the emptiness. Someone who sees it as more vast than empty might go for "Infinitum".

#61 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:03 PM:

Pax britannicus habeus corpus
Rex non potest peccare
Quid pro quo post haste quo vadis
Status quo hip hip hooray!

#62 ::: Tania ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:04 PM:

Diatryma @ #54: Yes! D'oh. ::slaps forehead:: Thank you. That totally explains why I kept reading line four with a cadence. I wasn't even thinking of that book.

Yes, yes you are awesome!

#63 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:06 PM:

Also, I'm surprised nobody seems to have mentioned that old favourite Sic transit gloria mundi, which of course means "My sister threw up on the bus earlier this week".

#64 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:07 PM:

So all but Patrick's addenda have been guessed, and guessed correctly. (Well done getting 4 - I didn't ROT-13 "Crea" and didn't realize anyone was on the track of it when I posted earlier.)

Any one want to assemble a list including which passage for ease of looking up?

I'm going to bed. Have fun, guys. Happy 100th Open Thread.

#65 ::: Patrick Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:07 PM:

A unicef clearisil!

No, let's stop.

#66 ::: Evelyn Browne ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:09 PM:

1. gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne, sebz Qhar
2. gur gvghyne cbrz sebz Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff
3. gur Fgne Gerx vageb
4. bar bs Zrabyyl'f fbatf sebz Qentbafbat (Gur yvggyr dhrra nyy tbyqra / syrj uvffvat ng gur frn)
5. "Gur Sbepr tvirf gur Wrv gurve cbjre..." sebz Fgne Jnef, boi.
6. "Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Rire Ba" (Ovyob'f irefvba sebz gur Ybat-Rkcrpgrq Cnegl)
7. "Vg vf nyjnlf gur cerebtngvir bs puvyqera naq unys-jvgf gb cbvag bhg gung gur rzcrebe unf ab pybgurf..." Qernz, sebz Fnaqzna
8. gur bar guvat urer V unira'g ernq; zl Yngva-ungvat ebbzzngr gryyf zr vg'f sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea (juvpu V fgnegrq bapr, gjb lrnef ntb, naq unq gb chg qbja unysjnl guebhtu orsber V guerj vg npebff gur ebbz; gur pbafgnag, ivbyrag ertvfgre fuvsgf veevgngrq gur uryy bhg bs zr.)
9. "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja," sebz Raqre'f Tnzr
10. "Ybir. Lbh pna xabj nyy gur zngu va gur 'Irefr..." sebz gur raq bs Freravgl.

#67 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:10 PM:

Fragano @ 59... That it is. And even though I forgot almost all of the Latin I learned in high-school, I figured it out mostly because my native tongue is French.

#68 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:12 PM:

abi #60: Okay. I just wondered. To me, it's the vastness that outweighs, as it were, the emptiness.

#69 ::: Christopher Davis ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:12 PM:

xeger (#21): It proves you're a geek. In this crowd, that's no reason for demerits.

Serge (#55): The Count demonstrates that the censored version of something can be racier than the unexpurgated one.

#70 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:12 PM:

Serge at 55: this is Count-themed hilarity, based on our own assumptions of wrongness.

I enjoy Sesame Street so much more now than when I was its target audience. Putative target audience, anyway.

#71 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:14 PM:

Drat it, Christopher Davies, it took me three tries to get that link right.

#72 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:14 PM:

Zeynep: Mea culpa, I jumped to soon, and saw merely a noun in the Enlglish.

abi: You should have put the Agnostic Prayer into Russian, where dependent clauses are don't eat one's braind (because the declensional problems start afresh, каториы is your friend.

#73 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:15 PM:

I just did some strange transforming.

I ROT-13d the text at 25, then I goofed the transformation back... leeting it, and then I ROT to Latined the Leeted text, resulting in:

Se(6em |\|31| 641z4a es6. E6 481em ()e50a 5(077 (4eq.

#74 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:16 PM:

Serge #67: But did you get the, ahem, paronomasia obvious to those whose native speech is the tongue spoken (and written) on a certain island on the northeastern side of the Atlantic?

#75 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:18 PM:

Evelyn Browne (66): Thanks for the translations! I hadn't realized it was actual quotes; I thought abi was writing poetry (sometimes) and making clever references in Latin.

#76 ::: Steve Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:25 PM:

So what's so good about New York?

A couple of our friends and their daughters (one kindergarten, one babe in arms) have just uprooted themselves from Melbourne (Australia) to New York. It's a really exciting career move for her, and an adventure for all of them - but their feet have only just touched the ground, and already they long for Vic Market (http://tinyurl.com/2nrwr4, http://tinyurl.com/2sg5vy).

I know at least Patrick and Teresa are New Yorkers, and I suspect there are many more. Any advice for a young Australian family on how to enjoy New York?

#77 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:31 PM:

Amabo te, spectavi unum errorem exiguum. necesse est scribere
" 1) ne . . . iacias/ieceris
2) ne stes/steteris"

seu liceat "noli iacere" et "noli stare."

Fragano @56 and abi @60 "Inane" is Lucretius' favorite word for the void, so I think it's a great choice.

Sadly, I am insufficiently well read to identify more than two or three.

#78 ::: Evelyn Browne ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:33 PM:

And I didn't know the author of Patrick's additions, but Google informs me it's Yneel Avira-- "Arire guebj fuvg ng na nezrq zna" naq "Arire fgnaq arkg gb fbzrbar guebjvat fuvg ng na nezrq zna."

#79 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:39 PM:

Christopher Davis @ 69... Diatryma @ 70... I guess we'll never see that version on Sesame Street. By thew ay, Christopher, wasn't your post's number very à propos?

#80 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:42 PM:

Fragano @ 74... Of course I did. I was raised as a Catholic after all, but I thought I'd keep my earlier response within the domain of the tasteful.

#81 ::: Earl Cooley III ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 08:52 PM:

Well, Google indexes ROT-13ed and disemvoweled words these days; that's a real 21st Century Moment kind of thing, at least to me....

#82 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 09:02 PM:

Before I gave up and looked at Evelyn's list, I managed to identify 1, 3, 5, and 6. I also was able to guess which work 2 and 10 came from, though I have not experienced either work ('Versi is really very distinctive).

I have not read 7; I have read 4 and 8, but don't retain much in the way of direct wording; I might have got 9 eventually, except that I went down a blind alley by translating "Portus" as "Door" (and vaguely wondered if it was something from Neverwhere).

I'm glad that's settled. Maybe now I can get some work done. :)

#83 ::: Rikibeth ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 09:05 PM:

I picked up 1 on cognates and decided not to enlist my Latin-studying daughter's help to try the rest. I had maybe one semester of Latin, many years of French, and one of my prize possessions is a black camisole with a gravestone death's-head and the motto "Memento Te Esse Mortalum." It's always fun to wear it out dancing and see if the people admiring it can translate it, or tell me where the phrase came from.

#84 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 09:24 PM:

abi @ 46

Well, I wasn't going to say, but it ought to be pretty clear from the first line ... with a dictionary, possibly.

Come on, 'reginula' with 'aurea' ought to be obvious: Qentbafvatre

#85 ::: Avram ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 09:33 PM:

Steve Taylor #76, advice for new New Yorkers:

One thing they'll need to do is familiarize themselves with the subway system. It's the city's circulatory system, a way of getting to just about any of the city's interesting places quickly and without having to worry about where to park. MTA.info is the official site for the subway, buses, and commuter trains.

Free maps (one train map with the whole subway system on one side, and the commuter trains to Long Island and upstate on the other; five bus maps covering the five boros) can be found at most subway stations and on many buses -- ask the driver or token booth clerk.

#86 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 09:38 PM:

I meant to add that since I only recognized 2 (#s 3 & 8) and even after cheating don't recognize many more I'd be happy to translate them back into English after a suitable interval--for purposes of further hilarity.

#87 ::: Marce ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 09:54 PM:

Timete... timete maxime.

That's about the extent of my Latin, beyond "Spectate Phoeniciam pulchram" which sounds like a travel brochure for Phoenicia to me.

#88 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:20 PM:

Most of my Latin is hymns, of course. My favorite line is "Mortis portis fractis fortis." And then there's "Omnis mundus jocundetur." "Jocundetur" is such a lovely word.

#89 ::: AHT ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:46 PM:

Steve at #76: Your friends will want to check out the Greenmarkets - more info at http://www.cenyc.org/greenmarket - which will probably help with missing the market you refer to.

I'd also recommend checking out the magazine Time Out New York, found at newstands everywhere. Comes out on Thursdays, and is the most comprehensive listing of what's happening where. They also publish a quarterly Time Out Kids, which I bet your friends would find helpful.

They might also consider Forgotten NY, which is both a book and a website, and covers all aspects of our mostly paved-over history. My favorite tidbit is the saw marks on the fence in Bowling Green, from when a mob inspired by the first reading of the Declaration of Independence sawed the crowns off the fenceposts.

And if they get really homesick, I expect a visit to the Sunburnt Cow would probably help. =)

#90 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:47 PM:

Well, I'm glad I gave up and looked at the ROT13s. I had correctly guessed all the ones I'd recognize even in English.

#91 ::: Susan ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:49 PM:

Threads like this remind me that I don't really belong on this blog.

#92 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:51 PM:

I'm feeling all inferior too.

#93 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:54 PM:

Abi,

Te amo.

Prima narratio feminis Oror Trffrevg est.

#94 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 10:54 PM:

What? But, but... but you do!
(you have activated the Emergency Response to Potential Self-Pity and/or Exclusion from Group. Please stand by while we initiate Reminders of Value and Belonginghood.)

I like it when the posts are smarter than I am. Your comments are often smarter than I am-- 'smarter' in this case includes 'I do not know that, and I do not know the context in which it would be useful to me, but *damn* that is interesting, and I would like to see it continued'.

#95 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 11:36 PM:

Why, Susan?

#96 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 11:45 PM:

Susan,

I figure that even if I don't belong here, I'm going to wait for someone (Teresa) to kick me out.

We all geek out on different things; I have always been impressed with your dance knowledge!

For 9, I'd've gone with porta, rather than portus, which is "harbor" according to my dictionary.

#97 ::: oliviacw ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 11:45 PM:

C is for Cookie
It's good enough for me!
C is for Cookie
It's good enough for me!
C is for Cookie
It's good enough for me!
Cookie, Cookie, Cookie starts with C!

I was surprised that, despite the earlier Sesame Street references, no one had yet provided this lovely ditty.

#98 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2008, 11:53 PM:

C is for Cassie, and cookies are for me.

I learned it as 'cookies are for me' even before I realized I could swap my own name in. It's funnier that way.

#99 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:07 AM:

Nancy at 96: Yes, "gate" is porta. Also, deorsum is "down" as in downwards, or underneath. It's been a while since I read Raqre'f Tnzr, but if "is down" equates to "has fallen," something like casa est would fit the bill. (That's cāsa the past participle of cadere, not the noun meaning "house" which is all short a's.) So (maybe) Porta hostium casa est is a closer equivalent to #9.

None of this is to take away from abi's efforts, which I envy.

#100 ::: Kevin Riggle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:11 AM:

Hundredth comment!

(Sorry, had to.)

#101 ::: meredith ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:35 AM:

Oh, sure. I literally just finish throwing out my old Latin notebooks from high school, and then I come here and get a big ol' slap upside the head. :P

Semper ubi sub ubi.

So there.

#102 ::: Sylvia Li ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:41 AM:

Steve: Not a New Yorker, but our daughter is, and we visited her a lot when we lived in NJ.

Yes, getting familiar with the subway system is essential. After that, a lot depends on their interests. New York has, pretty nearly, something for everyone. The older girl is about a year younger than my grandson, so I can tell you a couple of places he likes.

* The American Museum of Natural History is a terrific place, where kids can run freely amongst dinosaurs and meteorites and coral reefs and much, much more.

* The Children's Museum of Manhattan, right near there, is even better, with many, many fun things to do for both kids, and lots of organized activities.

* Sticking with that same neighborhood, there's Fairway and Citarella for upscale grocery shopping with enormous variety. And don't forget Zabar's deli. (Don't want to overload on links... these are all in Google.)

But, really, there's great stuff all over NYC. And half the fun is discovering it yourself, so if I had just one word of advice to your friends, it would be: Explore.

#103 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:42 AM:

About the only Latin I know seems appropriate for those of who are feeling inferior at the moment. It's strong language which shouldn't be taken personally by anyone:

Illegitimi non Carborundum.

#104 ::: BSD ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:44 AM:

Chris @99: Your clarification shows why xkcd's joke on this subject would not work in latin (to clarify my comment on your clarification: In the work itself, the meaning for deorsum you give is what is meant (it's a zero-g exercise). The xkcd comic in question would properly use casa est (there's a technical failure).

#105 ::: Gursky ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:17 AM:

Argh. I know no Latin only cognates, which can be infuriatingly misleading, and seeing the solutions, it turns out I haven't actually read all the sources anyways. I'm proud of those I did get.

Hey, I'm putting up a display in the store of classic mid-century fantasy beyond Tolkien. Any favorites that you folks think should be included? There are nice new editions of Porius and the Gormenghast books that settled me on this theme.

Oh, and as for advice for new residents of new amsterdam, I would suggest walking around a bit to orient yourselves. The subway drops you off in so many different neighborhoods without giving you any context.
Strange. Now that I think about it I have so many hyper-specific recommendations, but very few general ones that wouldn't apply to any city.

#106 ::: Kevin Riggle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:48 AM:

Susan @91, Xopher @92: Yeah, the Latin goes over my head, too. Then again, I get most of the engineer humor in XKCD, and a lot of people don't, so it balances out. Spend enough time around lots of really smart people, and you discover that there's always *someone* smarter than you at any given field of activity. (And you're probably in turn someone else's "someone who's smarter than me at X", though you may not know it.)

#107 ::: Brian of Aspidistra ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:53 AM:

CENTURION:
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domus'? 'People called Romanes they go the house'?
BRIAN:
It-- it says, 'Romans, go home'.

CENTURION:
No, it doesn't. What's Latin for 'Roman'? Come on!
BRIAN:
Aah!
CENTURION:
Come on!
BRIAN:
'R-- Romanus'?
CENTURION:
Goes like...?
BRIAN:
'Annus'?
CENTURION:
Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
BRIAN:
Eh. 'Anni'?
CENTURION:
'Romani'. 'Eunt'? What is 'eunt'?
BRIAN:
'Go'. Let--
CENTURION:
Conjugate the verb 'to go'.
BRIAN:
Uh. 'Ire'. Uh, 'eo'. 'Is'. 'It'. 'Imus'. 'Itis'. 'Eunt'.
CENTURION:
So 'eunt' is...?
BRIAN:
Ah, huh, third person plural, uh, present indicative. Uh, 'they go'.
CENTURION:
But 'Romans, go home' is an order, so you must use the...?
BRIAN:
The... imperative!
CENTURION:
Which is...?
BRIAN:
Umm! Oh. Oh. Um, 'i'. 'I'!
CENTURION:
How many Romans?
BRIAN:
Ah! 'I'-- Plural. Plural. 'Ite'. 'Ite'.
CENTURION:
'Ite'.
BRIAN:
Ah. Eh.
CENTURION:
'Domus'?
BRIAN:
Eh.
CENTURION:
Nominative?
BRIAN:
Oh.
CENTURION:
'Go home'? This is motion towards. Isn't it, boy?
BRIAN:
Ah. Ah, dative, sir! Ahh! No, not dative! Not the dative, sir! No! Ah! Oh, the... accusative! Accusative! Ah! 'Domum', sir! 'Ad domum'! Ah! Oooh! Ah!
CENTURION:
Except that 'domus' takes the...?
BRIAN:
The locative, sir!
CENTURION:
Which is...?!
BRIAN:
'Domum'.
CENTURION:
'Domum'.
BRIAN:
Aaah! Ah.
CENTURION:
'Um'. Understand?
BRIAN:
Yes, sir.
CENTURION:
Now, write it out a hundred times.
BRIAN:
Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
CENTURION:
Hail Caesar. If it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
BRIAN:
Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar and everything, sir! Oh. Mmm!

#108 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:33 AM:

Some more (probably WAY too simple for the classicists) here:

I: Quando nos ... duae ... reconveniemus?

II: Ira inferni fervet in corde meo, mors et abiectio circa me flagrant!

III:
Edi
Pruni
Quae erant
In cistula glacei

Quaeque
Probabiliter
Reservas
Ientaculo

Remitte me
Delicata erant
Tam dulcia
Tam frigida

Apologies for leaving the genres we started in.

#109 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:54 AM:

Mikael @108:

Fantastic. Particularly that third one.

#110 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:00 AM:

dido @86:
I'd be happy to translate them back into English after a suitable interval--for purposes of further hilarity.

A fantastic notion, and great fun. It will, of course, expose the significant weaknesses in my translations, but that's fine by me.

It's not like I'm being graded on this.

#111 ::: NelC ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:06 AM:

スゼん @91、クリストファ @92、唯一の解決はあなたが知っている言語で答えるべきである。

#112 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:22 AM:

Delirant isti Romani.

#113 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:23 AM:

I am distressed almost beyond measure that I may have put people off with this piece of obsessive silliness. My Classics geekery is no more or less significant than physics geekery, dance geekery, or computer geekery.

When I first came to Making Light, not many years ago at all, I knew myself to be insignificant, even inaudible. Things I would say to no reaction would be restated by others and get responses. For a while, it was off-putting. But then I found it a kind of freedom. It was my chance to experiment, to play around. To be my kind of geek.

And look where that got me.

Please don't feel out of place. We all define what this place is, so no one here - by definition - can be out of it.

#114 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:15 AM:

I can recognize most of these...I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but here's the ones I know (ROT13'd, as per request)

1. Gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne sebz gur Qhar obbxf.

2. Gur cbrz ol Hefhyn Yr Thva sebz juvpu Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff gnxrf vgf gvgyr.

3. Gur bcravat zbabybthr sebz "Fgne Gerx" naq/be "Fgne Gerx: GAT".

4. I can more or less translate this one: Gur yvggyr tbyqra dhrra syrj uvffvat ng gur frn gb ubyq onpx gur jnirf naq fnir ure rtt. Fur qvq gurfr guvatf oeniryl. I just don't recognize it.

5. This one took quite a bit of thought and study to recognize. Vg'f Ora Xrabov'f qvfdhvfvgvba ba gur Sbepr: "...vg fheebhaqf hf naq crargengrf hf, vg ovaqf gur tnynkl gbtrgure."

6. Gbyxvra'f "Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba".

7. Shouldn't that be "puerorum" rather than "puerum"? "Vg vf gur evtug bs oblf naq sbbyf gb fnl gung gur rzcrebe unf ab pybgurf. Ohg gur sbbyf erznva sbbyf naq gur rzcrebe erznvaf na rzcrebe." Gurer'f n dhbgr n ovg yvxr gung va Fnaqzna, ohg V qba'g guvax vg'f rknpgyl gung.

8. Gur havpbea-uhagvat fbat sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea.

9. Raqre'f Tnzr: "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja."

10. Don't recognize this one and even am having a hard time reading it. The "'Versi" makes me think it might be a quote from Serenity....

Patrick's addition is gjb bs Avira'f Ynjf.

#115 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:37 AM:

NelC@111: I think you're offering to translate for Susan and Xopher? I've forgotten pretty much all the kanji I ever knew....(and I don't think I was ever taught the "...de aru" construction.)

#116 ::: guthrie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:41 AM:

Abi #113- hear hear. People tend to think of computer geekery, but there are lots more kinds out there, and this should be more widely known.

#117 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:42 AM:

Terry Karney @ #24: Verbs conjugate, nouns decline.

Which is why verbs are more likely to get invited to fashionable parties?

#118 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:07 AM:

Mikael @ #108:

You probably couldn't hear it from over there, but the third one made me break into applause.

The first one is also neat. (And so, inductively, must the second one be; but I'm afraid I don't recognise it.)

#119 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:18 AM:

Paul @ 118: for II you'll want to think opera.

And thank you for the ovation. It's a morning of procrastination well spent if I can impress even parts of the crowd here.

#120 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:28 AM:

abi -- I'm distressed that you're distressed! My quip was copied from the souvenir pencil I bought at the Archaeological Park in Xanten*. Although I never took Latin**, it's loads of fun seeing what others do with it.

*Xanten isn't too far from you, if you want a Roman/Latin fix. On your side of the border, there's a lot of Roman history in Nijmegen. And Arnhem is also close. It has a fantastic zoo, with a great playground, as well as a good open-air museum. (I'm a sucker for those.)
**For Latin substitute computer science, biochemistry, Chinese...............

#121 ::: Andy Brazil ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:29 AM:

Mikael @ 108

1 Jura jvyy jr ... gjb ... zrrg ntnva - Greel Cengpurgg'f jvgpurf. V guvax sebz Ybeqf naq Ynqvrf?

2 I don't recognise this but my best stab would be something like natre oheaf va zl urneg yvxr sver, qrngu naq zvfrel rapvepyr zr, which is probably nothing like it - I last did latin about 35 years ago.

3 I think is obvious just from the line length. I love cistula glacei for ersevqtrengbe though. I know the Vatican have a list of modern terms in Latin, is it from there or an original coining?

#122 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:29 AM:

David Goldfarb @ #114: 3. Gur bcravat zbabybthr sebz "Fgne Gerx" naq/be "Fgne Gerx: GAT".

Definitely "Fgne Gerx". As people have said, 'quinquennialum' is the giveaway; for "Fgne Gerx: GAT" it would be, um, (rustling of dictionary pages) 'perseverans'?

#123 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:37 AM:

Andy @ 121:
I. spot on.
II. you have your verbs kinda mixed up. The oheavat only occurs in the second of two clauses.
III. the version I saw on the web had vprobk; which made the translation to cistula glacei more obvious than with ersevqtrengbe.

#124 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:37 AM:

Susan (especially) - don't worry. For one thing, even though I could translate most of the Latin, I had a hard time recognising most of them. (In one case, demonstrating to myself the uselessness of googling for "Little Golden Queen"...) And for another, even though I'm supposed to be a proper classicist, my Latin (especially composition) is nowhere near the standard of plenty of people on this blog, many of whom know more dead languages than me anyhow.

Somehow I have to keep learning the lesson that there is always likely to be someone around who knows more than you about any given thing - and that this is an opportunity rather than a problem!

Hmm, didn't mean to preach there. It's just that I constantly forget that this is precisely why I like Making Light.

Ps: Mikael: I'm very impressed that you made III go into Latin so well. I love the run of single words in the middle. Perhaps WCW should have written in Latin in the first place. Perhaps he did.

#125 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:39 AM:

Abi @ 113... Classics geekery is no more or less significant than physics geekery, dance geekery, or computer geekery.

You forgot poetry geekery - and that rhymes too. Say, is there such a thing as pun geekery? According to the movie Ridicule, puns are the death of wit.

#126 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:52 AM:

Pun geekery can be identified by the tendency to cluster together in a park, exchanging puns, rather than chilling out on the grass.

Yes, the pun is matey-er than the sward.

#127 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:52 AM:

candle @124:
my Latin (especially composition) is nowhere near the standard of plenty of people on this blog

I hope you're not referring to me there. This post took about a week of subjecting Messrs Lewis, Short, Allen and Greenough to some enhanced interrogation techniques, and I still forgot that puer is second declension.

One day Professor Griffith* is going to track this blog down and flunk me.

-----
* Latin Prose Composition, UC Berkeley, spring semester of 1990. I got a B+.

#128 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:55 AM:

Serge @125:
puns are the death of wit.

Some would say puns show a dearth of wit, but I don't agree.

#129 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:56 AM:

dido #77: Far be it from me to contradict either the Queen of Carthage or the immortal author of On The Nature of Things.

#130 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:57 AM:

Debbie @120:
I didn't think you were feeling distressed, but several other people seem to be.

And thanks for the tip about Arnhem - summer trips beckon!

#131 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:04 AM:

Abi @ 128... The movie was quoting Voltaire. The latter probably was jealous because he couldn't come up with any puns. So would say Seamus Zelazny Harper.

#132 ::: Nomie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:07 AM:

I am surprised at both how much and how little I recognize - I got one, three and ten, but the rest are mystifying me.

However, I'm not sure how much of that is due to it being 7 A.M. or due to my being a very poor sort of geek. But at last, twelve years of Latin are useful!

Forsan, et haec olim meminisse iuvabit.

#133 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:07 AM:

Mikael #108: I'm certain that Guilliemus Carolus Guilliemus would have loved your number 3.

#134 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:11 AM:

abi #113: I don't see why you're distressed. I'm no Latininst, but I found this amusing and pleasant. I was deeply impressed by the effort you put into it, and how deftly it was done.

Vivat Abi!

#135 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:19 AM:

Allan Beatty @ #31: Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

An unaccountable omission. I was going to offer to remedy the lack, but on reflection I think it's a job for somebody who'll get the word endings right.


Instead, here's something that I briefly thought abi's #10 might be:

Matrimonium. Matrimonium esse quae conciliare nobis hodie. Matrimonium, illa compositionis beatum, illa somnium intus somnium. Et amor, amor verum, semper exequor. Ita amor colere.

(I apologise for the errors I'm certain that paragraph contains; the best dictionaries in the world, even assuming that's what I used, would not make up for the fact that I never studied Latin. Scholars, console yourselves with the reflection that if I'd also attempted to ersyrpg gur fcrnxre'f yvfc it would have been much, much worse.)

#136 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:25 AM:

Latin never really leaves one - I was rather pleased to discover that I'd identified all the ones I had actually read. But shouldn't the word order in V be really, really strange? (Q: how would one display this sort of oddity in Latin, anyway? Perhaps the speaker should always talk in the subjunctive?)

#137 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:31 AM:

ajay @ #136: But shouldn't the word order in V be really, really strange?

No, because it's Ora Xrabov, not Znfgre Lbqn.

(But "How best to represent the odd speech of Znfgre Lbqn in Latin?" is still an interesting question, though not one I feel qualified to comment on.)

#138 ::: Ruth Temple ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 08:19 AM:

I do love this place, and all the people who do read and write hereupon. My years of French tipped me to a couple o' these, but the whole tenor of the game just has me beaming from ear to ear, and eager for real morning to come, so I can show it to my Latin scholar sweetie who lies gently snoring in the next room.

#139 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 08:52 AM:

Susan (91), Xopher (92), of course you belong here! Gvzrf jura jr'er gnyxvat nobhg fbzrguvat lbh xabj jryy naq bguref ner oynax ba, lbh qba'g guvax "Uzzzzs, gurl boivbhfyl qba'g orybat urer," qb lbh? Bs pbhefr abg. Lbh fnl "Bu, urer, guvf vf arng, yrg zr rkcynva vg ..." Fb jul ner lbh zbegvslvat lbhefryirf abj? Vg'f fb mundane, vs lbh'yy rkphfr zl fnlvat fb.

I thought Diatryma (54) had exactly the right reaction to this kind of game:

Dude! I am awesome! I got 1 and 4 and 9 and now feel extremely smart and moderately well-read."
Orfvqrf, vs lbh qba'g purre hc naq erpbyyrpg lbhe bja tbbq fryirf, jr'yy fgneg gb srry yvxr vg'f haxvaq bs hf gb or univat guvf zhpu sha. V'z abg rira fher ubj gb cnefr gung. V whfg xabj jr'yy qb vg.

#140 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:06 AM:

Abi @ 128... Speaking of deaths and dearths... Did I ever tell what I saw 22 years and one week ago, when Sue and I moved from Toronto to California? As we were driving along I-80, we saw a sign (in Utah?) that pointed to a ranch off the road, a place called the Deeth Starr Valley. I kid you not.

#141 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:20 AM:

It turns out I got 9 wrong-- I saw 'port*' and thought, "Oh, yeah, if I were putting this together, I'd definitely include a dilating door."

And I had my own made-up tune for 4 going through my head pretty solidly all last night.

#143 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:30 AM:

Niall @ 142... Noticed the exit number? That was rather ominous. Or maybe half ominous.

#144 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:33 AM:

Sicut Deus Dominus
in campo pleno ossibus
Anglemittus Circumservus
gentem nomine Jonis
creavit ...

(Gratias ago tibi, Abi, for fixing two bits of grammar and subtracting a superfluous pronoun.)

#145 ::: Sarah S ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:37 AM:

Paul A. @ #117

in re: "Verbs conjugate; nouns decline."

The nouns get invited. They just turn down the invite.

The verbs get invited, but they do tend to behave somewhat shockingly.

And, all, my only contribution to the Latinate foolery this morning is to point you to Yarn Harlot's post in praise of every writer's favorite Latin term, "STET."

http://www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/

#146 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:38 AM:

137: Oh, of course. (How embarrassing to make that mistake. Time for a session with the Agnoizer, I'm afraid.)

On a vaguely related topic, about the only bit of "Captain Corelli's Mandolin" I actually liked was the author's decision to represent the British SBS man's speaking ancient Greek to the islanders as Chaucerian English.

#147 ::: Kevin Reid ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:49 AM:

(I hope that an open thread is the least-wrong place for this bit of meta...)

I posted a comment (with six URLs) on Why, this is the whale, nor are we out of it three days ago. It's shown up on my comment list page, but not in the thread in question. Did I hit some sort of moderation, or a glitch, or is there something else I ought to be doing?

#148 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:52 AM:

BSD at 104: Like I said, long time since I read it and I never remember stuff like that.

Here's something I do remember:

Denique bracchium meum denuo completum est!

#149 ::: Epacris ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:54 AM:

mjfgates @11, I cannot but help thinking of Binsey Poplars when I read your final paragraph


All felled, felled, are all felled;
    Of a fresh and following folded rank
        Not spared, not one
        That dandled a sandalled
    Shadow that swam or sank
Or, for a more recent version, there's Bruce Jackson's article.

Rikibeth @83, is "Memento Te Esse Mortalum" what his companion whispered to the triumphant one?

Nancy @93, do you mean Orar Trffrevg?

#150 ::: Sarah S ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:58 AM:

˙ǝɹɐɥs ʇsnɯ ı ʇlǝɟ ı 'sıɥʇ ʇnoqɐ pɹɐǝɥ ʇsnɾ ı ǝɔuıs ʇnq 'ʍouʞ ı 'ʇou ʎlqɐqoɹd

¿31-ʇoɹ uı uɐɥʇ ɹǝɥʇɐɹ uʍop ǝpısdn sɹǝʍsuɐ ʇsod oʇ ǝlqɐ ǝq oʇ lnɟǝsn ǝq ʇɥƃıɯ ʇı ʞuıɥʇ ǝuoʎuɐ sǝop

#151 ::: Epacris ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:59 AM:

mjfgates @11, I cannot but help thinking of Binsey Poplars when I read your final paragraph


All felled, felled, are all felled;
    Of a fresh and following folded rank
        Not spared, not one
        That dandled a sandalled
    Shadow that swam or sank
Or, for a more recent version, there's Bruce Jackson's article, and some reactions to it.

Rikibeth @83, is "Memento Te Esse Mortalum" what his companion whispered to the triumphant one?

Nancy @93, do you mean Orar Trffrevg?

#153 ::: Jack Kincaid ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:15 AM:

I would learn Latin, but I still haven't figured out English. When I master the latter, I'll tackle the former. How I love to plan for impossible events.

#154 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:21 AM:

abi, this is a lot of fun, even if it does show just how completely deteriorated my Latin is after more than 40 years of unuse. I got the first 3 and then stalled out; but I will be back! Maybe more coffee? I appreciate the ROT-13ere, it gives me a chance to continue bashing my head against it while still admiring the people who can do it better.

And that most definitely isn't a problem for me. I've said it before, I'll continue to say it: I love being around people who are smarter and better educated than me. It stretches me in ways I wouldn't have thought to stretch, and makes me reach for more than I thought I could.

By the way, the modern form of "lorem ipsum" was first composed by Theodore Geisel when laying out an illustrated book, and begins "lorax ipsum".

#155 ::: Sarah S ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:39 AM:

Oh dear, Abi....

Don't look. It *burns*!!!

http://judgeabook.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-brainers.html

(the third of the three pictures in the post, that is...)

#156 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:40 AM:

re 150: Fortunately or not, I learned to read upside down years ago.

#157 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:56 AM:

Coming in late, but without having looked at other guesses:

1. Gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne
2. Qhaab
3. "Fcnpr, gur svany sebagvre..."
4. Sbe fbzr ernfba V jnagrq gb znxr guvf "Gur Gjryir Qnlf bs Puevfgznf" sebz gur tbyqra evatf ba qbja, ohg vg vfa'g.
5. Qhaab
6. Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba
7. Evtug ba gur gvc bs zl gbathr
8. V cebonoyl fubhyq xabj, ohg V qba'g.
9. Ab vqrn
10. Zny'f fcrrpu gb Evire ng gur raq bs *Freravgl*

This makes me want to buy the newest edition of Wheelock's Latin.

#158 ::: Sus ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:12 AM:

*bows deeply* Once again, ML manages to utterly intrigue and make me feel very stupid at the same time. 3 hard years of Latin and what have I got? Nothing.

But I'd like to ask this learned gathering something if you don't mind? Back in the day, when Cicero became too tedious, we used to amuse ourselves with making up sentences. My favourite was "Caesar rocked up on his bike." (Or is this some ancient meme? I can't remember.). Of course this was an approximation, the actual latin I think involved the words Caesar+arrive 3rd person sing perfect active+wheel...

My dictionaries are in my parents' attic... Can anyone translate this for me? I'd be so happy.

Humbly,
Sus of Small Brain

#159 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:19 AM:

Though a word or two of my high school Latin may be rattling around somewhere in my brain, I didn't even try these -- not after going to bed early so I could get up at a quarter to 2 a.m. to watch the Federer vs. Djokovich semifinal at the Australian Open! (Good thing I did, since today's NYT gave away the result in a huge front-page story I couldn't possibly have missed.)

During the tennis, they keep showing ads that make Melbourne look completely delightful, even if that touted "nature" *is* several hours' drive away. Can it really be that gorgeous, from architecture to setting? Arizona has its own great scenery, but Phoenix is no gem. I prefer my hick town, though I wish to hell we had some form of public transit.

Must close now, to go get the neighbor's cat back indoors -- it's about 20 degrees outside, and frosty!

#160 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:24 AM:

PS: Mission accomplished!

#161 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:31 AM:

For fun Latin, I highly recommend Sandra Boynton's Grunt: Pigorian Chant.

#162 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:42 AM:

Doc Holliday: In vino veritas.
Johnny Ringo: Age quod agis.
Doc Holliday: Credat Judaeus apella, non ego.
Johnny Ringo: Eventus stultorum magister.
Doc Holliday: In pace requiescat.
Tombstone Marshal Fred White: Come on boys. We don't want any trouble in here. Not in any language.
Doc Holliday: Evidently Mr. Ringo's an educated man. Now I really hate him.

#163 ::: Evelyn Browne ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:53 AM:

This thread just does not stop being awesome.

Chris @148: That's wonderful.
Mikael @108: 2 is "Qvr ubryyr Enpur xbpug vz zrvarz Uregmra"

#164 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:58 AM:

OK--I know just enough Latin to be certain I'm mangling the following: "Dies dum desidero gravitam in te adveniunt nimirum ad medio."

Tell me what I've done wrong...if you can figure out the quote in the first place. Hint: it's from Sversyl, "Bhe Zef. Erlabyqf", Zny gb Wnlar.

#165 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:58 AM:

158: Caesar adit in rota sua. (I don't think there's a Latin word for "bike" - currus duae rotae? Two-wheeled chariot?

#166 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:02 PM:

Sus: what you describe should be something like "Caesar aduenit rota", but I may be missing something (or just being wrong).

Meanwhile: abi, all the prose comp seems pretty good to me, although I was thinking especially of the people who were able to write their comments in Latin. If it helps, I think a native Latiner might plausibly have used "puerum" for "puerorum" on the parallel of the established variant "deum" for "deorum" (and "uirum" for "uirorum" too). Just tell people that you're so familiar with the language that you can be casual about breaking the rules...!

#167 ::: Evelyn Browne ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:02 PM:

And, apropos of #148-- It's a pity that Paulum sacerdotis doesn't scan better.


#168 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:15 PM:

164: well, though I may be one of abi's sub-personalities I'm one of the ones that missed out on the Latin expertise, but I have a feeling that the structure you want is a gerund:

Te contemnendum mihi certe ad medium suum advenit.

#169 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:20 PM:

Or, better, appropinquit.

#170 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:23 PM:

Oooh, I hope the "further hilarity" comment didn't come across as snooty... I just meant that since I don't know what most of them are supposed to say we'll end up with that great Mark Twain/French translation business.

For the record I am wicked impressed with all the Latin. And I refuse to admit how long it took me to figure out the ROT-13 business.

156/165/166: I don't know for sure but I'm sure the Neo-latin people have a word for bicycle; and since the Romans had no shame about stealing Greek words I don't see what's wrong with "bicyclus."

candle @ 166: I totally assumed that "puerum" was a syncopated genitive.

#171 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:27 PM:

dido @ 170... What great Mark Twain/French translation business? Let me guess. Huckleberry Finn?

#172 ::: Skwid ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:38 PM:

Sarah S@150, like C. Wingate, I learned to read upside down long, long ago, and am nearly as facile with it as most people seem to be reading normal text. I would sit with my legs over the back of the couch, my back on the seat, and my head dangling down the front, and from this position I would read a book set "right-way up" on the floor. To me, this was more fun than learning how by simply flipping the book around.

I was, and I suspect I am in good company here, an odd child.

At any rate, it would be markedly poor spoiler protection for me.

#173 ::: Sarah S ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 12:49 PM:

#172 Skwid and C. Wingate at #156

Yes, I wasn't seriously suggesting it as an alternative to Rot-13. I just thought it was an entertaining toy.

#174 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:03 PM:

170/171: I think dido meant to say German, not French.

#175 ::: R. M. Koske ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:07 PM:

I one day became curious about the origins of the word "stet" and went googling. Did you all know that it is an editor's mark that means to not make the indicated correction?

Yes, me too. Unfortunately, that was the limit of what I turned up with Google. Frustratingly, that definition seemed to be the one invariably offered in discussion when I said I wanted to know the word's origins, even by people who knew I proof* for a living.

Finally one of my co-workers who was fortunate enough to study Latin** heard me complaining about it and told me the origin.***

*I proof the ads for a big-box retailer. I do the heavy lifting in checking the prices, but catching errors in the text is also in my job description, though theoretically they've all been found in multiple rounds of proofing before I see them.

**When I asked about it on entering high school, I was told, "No one knows that well enough to teach it anymore." I didn't even ask at college. Possibly a mistake, but given the schools I attended, I doubt they taught it either.


***Since you can't google it, here's the answer for those in my boat: It is the second person imperative for "let it stand." Or at least, that was her explanation.

#176 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:08 PM:

Mary Aileen @ 174... Is that the comment that Twin supposedly made about German words being so long that they have a perspective? As for French, I wonder how a translator conveyed the feel of Huck's language without sounding ridiculous. (Have you ever watched the Star Trek movies dubbed into French?)

#177 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:24 PM:

Teresa 139: You're right, of course. I was being whiny. My feelings of inferiority were greatly reduced when I realized I'd correctly identified every single passage that I'd ever seen in English, and this without one single hour of Latin instruction in school! (I tried to use Latin for Dummies, but I didn't like it.)

In other words, I got over myself a little bit! And if I'd stopped reading this thread, I'd never have seen Mikael's 108:III, which is just beyond exquisite.

Mary Aileen 161: I second your recommendation. That gorgeous voice singing out "Ecce MacDonaldus Senex, qui fundus habet!"

As for me, all (or almost all) my Latin comes from singing Renaissance motets and Gregorian chant. And, of course, Carmina Burana, and Catulli Carmina to some extent; even a little Trionfo di Afrodite, but the problem with the latter two is that the Latin is Classical Latin, and Catullus takes full advantage of the syntactic flexibility of that language, which makes it difficult, at least for me.

At any rate, speaking of Gregorian and motets: am I the only one who keeps hearing abi's 3 as Gregorian? And 1 and 2 as motets?

OK, I probably am. Am I the only one who thinks it's a good idea? Am I the only one who would love to sing the Gregorian chant "Inane Ultimus Limus" at Worldcon? (Perhaps the others, but I'm not sure my compositional skills are up to the motets; the Gregorian I can definitely do. Motets take a hell of a lot more practice to sing, too.)

#178 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:36 PM:

Speaking of languages I have no functional knowledge of, how does my iTunes randomizer know which songs are in French? And why has it been pretty heavily into them for the past half hour?

#179 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:38 PM:

158, 165 et al. (heh) -- th word-play among Germans learning Latin is "Caesar equus consilium" = "Caesar fährt Rad", which translates as "Caesar rides a bicycle", mangling the sounds of equus/Pferd/fährt and consilium/Rat/Rad.

#180 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:42 PM:

It is the second person imperative for "let it stand."

Well, in fact it's the third person present subjunctive of sto, stare (I stand, to stand), and therefore means "let it stand" [or "it may stand"]. I would have said that imperatives are always second person, but I was taught that in classical Greek there are third person imperatives which are therefore almost impossible to translate into English. The closest I got was "Thatcher Out!". (Or, on an equally political note, Robin Cook.)

Debbie: I thought there might be some wordplay going on. I suppose the English equivalent is:

Caesar adsum jam forte
Brutus aderat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sic inat

#181 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:44 PM:

epacris at 149, yes, um, oops. I plead the lateness of the hour, and that it was my first time typing in rot-13.

Chris at 99, I think deorsum is a good choice, because the meaning is below, underneath, not fallen.

(I am so made of squee right now.)

And the poem at 108 is gorgeous!

#182 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:46 PM:

The meaning is, "below, underneath;" the meaning is not, "fallen."

#183 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:48 PM:

Xopher @ 177:
Thanks for the praise. As for Catullus poetry, a few days before this thread erupted, I had one of those evil nuggets of inspiration.

Based on the recognition that Catullus and Cthulhu pronounce vaguely similar, I give you an extract from Cthulhi Carmina # 5.

Da mi tentaculi mille, deinde centum
Dein altera mille, dein centum secundum

#184 ::: Ambar ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 01:51 PM:

Faren @ 159; I spent a week in Melbourne for work, about a decade ago. Although I spent far too much time inside a windowless computer room at Telstra (and it was May, so rainy gloomy autumnal weather prevailed), I was delighted by the architecture, the people, the beer (I do NOT like American beer, but I think I could live on VB) and the public transit. Melbourne actually had a strong flavor of the charming bits of Boston, minus the cow-addled roads. Do visit.

#185 ::: R. M. Koske ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:01 PM:

#180, candle -

I thought there was a good chance I was close but not correct on it. Thanks for the clarification.

#186 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:03 PM:

non est mortuus semper quod decumbet
alienoque tempestate moriar et mors

#187 ::: r@d@r ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:11 PM:

#183:

i could not resist, since we're playing Tower of Babel today -

Iä! Iä! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

there, now i feel much better.

#188 ::: Scott Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:12 PM:

Ethan @ 178 -
Speaking of languages I have no functional knowledge of, how does my iTunes randomizer know which songs are in French? And why has it been pretty heavily into them for the past half hour?

I'm semi-convinced* that iTunes is Apple's first successful experiment in artificial intelligence, and either develops moods and preferences in music, or somehow is able to anticipate those of its users, even on random play (whether it chooses to follow or work against the user's preferences is another matter).

Because mine will do stuff like play 6 - 7 Gladiator soundtrack tunes in a row. Or play anime/J-Pop music for half an hour. Or gets on a Star Trek jag. or decides I really want to listen to drum & bass for a while.

Conversely, there are songs (and whole albums) that I haven't heard since I burned them from CD - years ago, in some cases - unless I go in and play them manually.

*No, not really. But, you know...

#189 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:13 PM:

I saw a license plate the other evening:
'A2 BRTS'

(Yes, the case is wrong. But it still had me giggling.)

#190 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:15 PM:

An open threadly query: In reading back over old comment threads, I sometimes see very old spam that never got deleted. Do you want to know about it? For example, here.

#191 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:20 PM:

Serge (176): I understood it to be a reference to Twain's essay "The Awful German Language." But only dido knows for sure.

#192 ::: theophylact ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:34 PM:

N, I think it's "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County", rendered into French and then "clawed back into a civilized language once more by patient, unremunerated toil."

#193 ::: Christopher Davis ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:35 PM:

Teresa's #139 has a great alien name hidden away in it: Zhaqnar. I mean, wouldn't you be frightened of the invaders from Zhaqnar?

Scott Taylor (#188): That's why I use smart playlists to play things I haven't heard in a certain length of time. It makes it far less likely that I'll miss hearing something again.

#194 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:36 PM:

Serge in #171: Mark Twain's most famous short story, "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County," was translated into French. Mr. Twain was not entirely satisfied with the result.

I think you will enjoy this:

The Jumping Frog: In English. Then in French. Then Clawed Back into a Civilized Language Once More by Patient, Unremunerated Toil.

#195 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:53 PM:

Scott Taylor #188: Well, "my" AI has decided since I last posted that it very much feels like listening to contemporary British girl group pop concoctions. I bet I like those groups more than most here, so I'm not complaining, but it's still weird...

#196 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:54 PM:

Thanks, everybody, about Twain. I'm not unduly surprised at his unhappiness. True, he was a cranky fellow. There is also my own experience when I tried to read a CJCherryh book in French even though I had it in English: I made the mistake of comparing both texts and finding unexplainable differences. Since then, I have been unable to read anything translated from English into my native language.

#197 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 02:58 PM:

Serge @ 170/Mary Aileen @191

theophylact and Bill Higgins have what I was thinking of. Twain seems almost prophetic of internet translations.

I hope to have an addition to the corpus soon but today is the Hell Day: Intensive Greek, Greek Prose, Intensive Latin. Right now I'm just hoping to get home before my brains leak out my ears.

#198 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:01 PM:

Paul A. @135: Shouldn't that really be "Matwimonium. Matwimonium esse quae conciwiawe nobis hodie" etc.?

Which naturally leads to stuff along the lines of "Habeo maximum amicum Womae qui Biggus Dickus wocatus esse" and "Libewa Wodewicum!", though otoh classical standards might call instead for transliteration along the lines of "matvimonivm" etc.

#199 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:02 PM:

Aargh. That should be "computer translations such as are now to be found freely on the internet." As opposed to, you know, the stuff we're doing right now.

#200 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:03 PM:

Aargh. That should be "computer translations such as are now to be found freely on the internet." As opposed to, you know, the stuff we're doing right now.

See above: brains, leaking.

#202 ::: Nomie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:22 PM:

And I just now got number 9, and laughed aloud. I haven't read or thought of that book in years.

More pondering, now that my fellow classics grad student-cum-geek is awake and around for puzzling over these.

#203 ::: g ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:25 PM:

Surely dido was thinking of the celebrated jumping frog of Calaveras County, as e.g. at http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/frog.html?

#204 ::: g ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:28 PM:

Oops. I ought to refresh before posting. How redundantly redundant of me.

#205 ::: Ruth Temple ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:29 PM:

re Tim @20, In C: That's fabulous. When are we getting together to play it, and how many other folks can we scrounge together to do so?


re cyhzf @108.III: lovely!

re Catullus/Cthulu mashup @183: eeeeek!

#206 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:40 PM:

Xopher @177:

Count me in on the Gregorian chant, though I haven't been in a chant choir since I studied Latin Prose Composition. If we end up at the same Worldcon ever, let's do it.

I think 3 works well as a chant because it has lots of short punchy sentences.

Motets scare me to sing, but give me a metrical pattern and I can certainly try to write one. Only not this weekend, please, because the Cue Cat has come and I'm putting all our books on Library Thing.

#207 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:42 PM:

172/173: I find it particularly useful reading something with someone else since the item can be placed on a table/desk between us, facing the other person. I have to train people to cooperate with this, though, or else they try to turn things/people in an effort to make things less upside down. I cannot read sideways-- at least, not more than a word or two at a time.

#208 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:43 PM:

Christopher (193): I originally had the main text in English and that word in ROT13, but for a couple of reasons I decided to flip them. It does sound like a made-up skiffy word.

Has anyone ever done a real study of the differences in letter frequency between standard English, made-up skiffy words, made-up fantasy words, and made-up non-genre English?

Still waiting to see whether anyone identifies #144.

#209 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:52 PM:

I learned to read upside down as a child, because my father mentioned that he had the skill and it sounded neat.

It was very useful during my years as a financial auditor.

Now, I mostly use it in restaurants which supply too few menus.

#210 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 03:54 PM:

Years of choral singing have left me with the not otherwise useful skill of being able to pronounce somewhat convincingly in something over eight languages (+/- versions of English and Slavonic languages). My Spanish tends to develop an Italian accent, though.

Chanting is one of those things where if you get in the groove, you can do it spontaneously with just about any text. At one point before we had children my wife and I carried on a twenty minute conversation in the "Old Scottish Chant".

#211 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:13 PM:

Serge -- re: translations. I read a lot of translated material, and there's always a nagging question in the back of my mind, "Did I like/dislike the book or the translation??" Maddening sometimes. And you mentioned something awhile ago about the "voice" of a narration being important -- it is for me, too, and it's something that's difficult to carry over in translation. For example, Tatjana Tolstoia's "Slynx" (Eng.) sounded very different to me from the German version ("Kys"), and who knows if either of them convey the same feeling as the original Russian? I have a huge respect for literary translators.

With regard to reading upside down: I learned to do it at the breakfast table. In grade school I wasn't allowed to read my own book or a piece of the newspaper at the table, but I HAD to read SOMETHING. So I read the others' things.

#212 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:34 PM:

Debbie @ 211... The saying about translation in French is Traduction est trahison, which, ah, translates as Translation is betrayal.

#213 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:37 PM:

Having tried to sketch out a translation, the #144 still doesn't ring any bell. I am starting to think, however, that this is due to lack of knowledge of the relevant literature, and not lack of knowledge of the relevant latin.

Nf Tbq gur Ybeq perngrq gur gevor anzrq Wbavf va gur svryq shyy jvgu obarf

And then there is Anglemittus Circumservus that I cannot seem to fit into the whole thing at all.

#214 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 04:38 PM:

Obligatory quote from The Frantics' "Roman Numerals" sketch:

"How much is 'forty-four' in real numbers?"
"XLIV." (spoken: ecks el eye vee)
"XLIV? Why didn't you just *say* XLIV? Who can remember 'forty-four'?"

#215 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:05 PM:

dido@170: thank you - "syncopated" was the word I was looking for. Being an inveterate researcher (if I can pretend it's related to work), I discover that Plautus uses "puerum" for "puerorum" at least once. So, abi? You're in good company.

I can't get Teresa's #144 either, even if I can make some sense of the Latin. [Mikael: zl irefvba vf zhpu gur fnzr nf lbhef: "Whfg nf gur Ybeq bhe Tbq sebz n svryq shyy bs obarf perngrq gur crbcyr anzrq (nsgre?) Wbavf (Wbua?)..."?]

I see I ought also to have mentioned that my #186 was meant as a contribution to Cthulhi Carmina...

#216 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:06 PM:

My offering (and sorry about the double posts):

Tantum nescioquo audiverim, cui curae quid dicam sit sed etiam non curae possit, opto, si flocci est, ut tibi ignoscatur sive aliquid feceris sive deliqueris quod ignoscendum sit. Contra, si necesse sit habere non clementiam sed aliud ut tibi quaedam beneficia debita post corporis exitium adrogetur, opto ut hoc, quidquid id est, sic donetur aut abnegetur ut ipsam beneficiam adsumas. haec opto electus depeciscendi causa inter te et istum qui, etsi tu non est, ita curet ut quam maximum huius adroges et aliquo modo ritu tangat.

#217 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:10 PM:

candle @ 215:
While I share your complete stumpedness at Teresa's offering, I must say that your contribution to Cthulhi Carmina is made of win.

#218 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:10 PM:

dido @216:

I faint at your feet.

#219 ::: Suzanne F. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:17 PM:

On treason and translation: Douglas Hofstader wrote a fabulous book on translation, Le Ton Beau de Marot, in which he translates Marot's A une damoiselle malade approximately a zillion different ways.

Also: my favorite plot point revealed in Latin: Placetne, magistra?

#220 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:19 PM:

re: #144

Mikael and candle: [V'z cerggl fher gur anzr vf n cha: "zvgghf" zrnaf zvyq be tragyr, ohg vg pna nyfb zrna zrepvshy be . . . Pyrzrag, naq Natyhf vf n jbeq sbe gur Ratyvfu, fb Pyrzrag gur Ratyvfuzna? Fvzvyneyl Pvephzfreihf frrzf yvxr vg zhfg or n cha nf jryy V whfg pna'g guvax bs jung vg zvtug or. Rfcrpvnyyl fvapr vg'f tbg gb or va nccbfvgvba gb Qrhf Qbzvahf.]

This is WAY too much fun. Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

#221 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:20 PM:

I learned to read upside-down while sitting across the desk from interviewers and copy chiefs.

Some finds, stumbled upon while exploring outward from the earlier vikipedia link:

Latina mercatoria
Singularitas Technologia
Kenethus MacLeod

#222 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:21 PM:

dido @ 220... Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

Does that mean you won't translate the original Star Trek monologue into Latin then back into English?

#223 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:36 PM:

Re (speaking of Latin): 144, maybe Jonis is "Wbarf", which rhymes with "obarf." Otherwise, Mikael and candle seem to be on the right track, but the reference is eluding me too. Plus Googling for the relevant words proved unhelpful.

I can stab at Anglemittum Circumservus -- natry-frag nebhaq-fynir, to be overliteral -- but I'm not drawing any enlightenment from that either.

#224 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:38 PM:

Ruth 205 and Tim 20: Somehow I missed, on the first goaround, that that was a link to the actual score and instructions for In C! How wonderful. If you want to play it anywhere near me, I'm in. I'll try anyway.

abi 206: Great! I don't suppose you'll be going to Denver?

C. 210: Fabulous. Denver?

And I know what you mean about the groove of chant. I can make up Gregorian-ish chant melodies on the fly, though I'm pretty sure I borrow heavily from Hildegarde von Bingen.

#225 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:39 PM:

Anyone remember The Day of the Dolphin?

Originally French, and the English edition I had was translated with no punctuation for direct speech, even though the words in the text had all the phrasing and structure.

Something like this:

This is the work of devils! said the lama, recoiling from the hollow echoing darkness, the glimmer of rails between the masonry platforms, and the maze of girders above.

Which is Kipling, but you can see where the quote marks should be.

#227 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:40 PM:

dido @220:
This is WAY too much fun. Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

Funny you should say that. This posting started out as three texts, but it was rather like eating crisps. Every evening, when I should have been sleeping, there I was pulling the grammar apart in another text.

(Did I mention that my copy of Allan & Greenough's New Latin Grammar is halfway through the rebinding process?)

#228 ::: Jules ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:42 PM:

Hmmm.

yog.com is for sale

Just thought, you know, might be worth mentioning.

#229 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:44 PM:

Dave Bell @ 225... no punctuation for direct speech

That, alas, is the way they do it in French. I never cared much for it.

#230 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:46 PM:

OK, properly "frag" would be missum, not mittum, my bad. Still - not - helping...

#231 ::: Sus ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:54 PM:

Debbie @ 179

That's it! I'd forgotten. A well-known thing it was, then, not something we made up. Still, it makes me laugh and laugh. Thank you so much for bringing that back to me!

#232 ::: Tim Walters ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 05:55 PM:

Ruth @ 205, Xopher @ 224: The San Francisco Symphony did a play-along In C (analogous to a sing-along Messiah) a few years ago. I'm kinda bummed that I didn't go.

OTOH, I've tried playing along to the record, and it's harder than it looks!

#233 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:05 PM:

Magus perdubtilissimus etiam impedietur ab novacula inter scapulis.

I'm pretty sure I got all the cases right.

#234 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:26 PM:

Maybe that should be "Magus perdubtilissimus etiam ab novacula inter scapulis impedietur", for that verb-final style.

#235 ::: Jules ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:28 PM:

Abi... there appears to be a typo in number 3. I'm pretty sure "qauerere" ought to be "quaerere". Had me confused for a moment there. :)

#236 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:33 PM:

I posted this before, but it seems very appropriate here again:

Lingua::Romana::Perligata -- Perl for the XXI-imum Century

#237 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 06:44 PM:

Jules @235:

Fixed, and thanks for pointing it out.

#238 ::: Jo Walton ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:07 PM:

Teresa @144: Of course! Ubique!

How strange in a language without either "the" or "Mr & Mrs".

Tu lapidas.

#239 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:07 PM:

Carrie S @ 233, 234:


Also (cheating and using Google):
Tace, Loiosh!

#240 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:10 PM:

Serge @ 196

There is also my own experience when I tried to read a CJCherryh book in French even though I had it in English

Now that's funny, I would have expected her to translate her own work (she's done some translation from French to English, I know). And what's good enough for Elisabeth Vonarburg ...

#241 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:17 PM:

Not having any Latin save the bits from a science background most of this is way over my head, though Paul A. #135 and Julie L. #198 nearly caused a drink-spitting incident.

Apropos of different flavours of geekery, and candle #124's comment, here is extreme geekness with theremin.

Oh and Dave Bell #126:
Only if punning is your metier.

#242 ::: Jo Walton ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:19 PM:

Oh, and in re Kenethus MacLeod. It's perfectly normal when taking a barbarian name into Latin to keep the nominative (and vocative) in the original form, and just decline it in the third declension. Thus my name in Latin isn't Iohanna, Iohanna, Iohannam, etc. (feminine, first declension) but Jo, Jo, Iohannis (neuter, third declension.) If I were Ken, I'd do the same, and be Ken, Ken, Kenetis. Not only does this help that when people are actually talking to you, they usually use the nominative or vocative, but it's also more reasonable for Latin speakers, who expect weird borrowed words to be declined in the third declension.

Yeah, I decided this when I was fifteen, what can I say except that I'm still right anyway.

#243 ::: Syd ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:35 PM:

This site (well, the people populating it) has (have) a disconcerting ability to make me feel positively unlettered...of course, my two years of Latin in high school, and at least two more semesters of same in college, were a long, long time ago, which may have something to do with it.

For this thread, anyway. :)

#244 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:44 PM:

Would anyone care to try their hand at the poem with agents of the imperial fisc pursuing through provincial sewers? That's got Latin words in it already.

#245 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:45 PM:

Bruce Cohen @ 240... And what's good enough for Elisabeth Vonarburg ...

You know Elisabeth?

#246 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 07:52 PM:

Soon Lee, 241: I never realized the adults in the Peanuts TV specials spoke theremin...

#247 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 08:14 PM:

abi @218: A demonic challege. Parts of it I think work; more of it . . . well. . . let's just say I think I'd do a better job in Greek. All that indefiniteness gets really confusing.

That said I'm tucking the source away for the day I teach Prose Comp myself. Any corrections or suggestions for improvement gratefully appreciated.

the same @227: Composition is totally addictive. We did a little bit of verse comp for my Greek Prose Comp class when I was in school; I spent HOURS (basically all week) translating a few of J.V. Cunningham's epigrams into elegaic couplets and the prof came in with "anyone lived in a pretty how town" in tragic trimeter. Zowie.

Serge @ 222: Wouldn't that be like carrying owls to Athens at this point?

Alan @ 244: I'm on it. I think I have a copy kicking around here.

#248 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 08:15 PM:

Jo @242: Thus my name in Latin isn't Iohanna, Iohanna, Iohannam, etc. (feminine, first declension) but Jo, Jo, Iohannis (neuter, third declension.)

Out of curiosity, what order of cases did you learn? It looks like you're starting the sequence as nominative-vocative-genitive?

#249 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 08:32 PM:

Xopher and Susan, #s 91 and 92,

Now you know how I feel when we're discussing popular culture and/or alternative lifestyles. Latin is part of my tiny comfort zone.

#108
V: Znfxrenqr

VV: "gur jengu bs uryy oheaf va zl urneg, qrngu naq (qrfcnve?) sybhevfu nebhaq zr"?

VVV: guvf vf whfg gb fnl

#135: Gur Cevaprff Oevqr

#150: I too can read both upside down and mirror writing easily enough that neither is spoiler-protection for me.

xopher @ #177, I would TOTALLY sing that. Not that I'm going to Worldcon. I'm a second soprano, by the way.

#233, that's Iynq Gnygbf'f zbggb.

(Teresa: I got nothin'.)

#250 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 08:41 PM:

By the way, completely OT, but I caved in and bought a boxed set of Santo DVD's from
Amazon, and it has been worth its weight in golden, hilarious entertainment. It's like MST3K meets the Adam West Batman. Plus Hammer Films. (One of the DVD cases was empty, but Amazon issued me an immediate partial refund, so it's all good.)

#251 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:25 PM:

Serge #212: That, of course, is a translation of the famous Italian pun traduttore tradittore: translator: traitor.

#252 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:26 PM:

About reading text.

I learned to read upside down, and reversed, when I was making slugs on a linotype. One had to check for mistakes. The relief between the letters and the base was not great.

#253 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:28 PM:

Mikael #213:

Gung bs pbhefr, vf sebz Fgnaq ba Mnamvone: Yvxr gur Tbbq Ybeq Tbq va gur Inyyrl bs Obarf, Raterynl Fnggryfreir znqr fbzr crbcyr anirq Wbarf. Gurl jrer abg nyvir naq gurl jrer abg qrnq...

#254 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:39 PM:

Jo: Yesssssss! Gens Ubique! The style of abbreviation in Anglemittus Circumservus is almost too easy: you gather the stems in your hand, and saw them straight across an inch from the ground.

#255 ::: EClaire ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:44 PM:

Apparently, I managed to baffle the person giving me a pseudo-IQ test when I was three, by answering all the questions before he'd had a chance to read them to me. They were meant to be fairly simple, I suspect, and not actually require reading, but I was reading the instructions upside down. That was one of my mother's favorite stories to tell about me. That and the story of me sitting in the car seat and suddenly yelling "STOP!" and when my mom slammed on her brakes and turned to ask what was wrong, I just looked at her and said "That sign says 'Stop'."
That being said, the only ones I got were the poem at 108, and "Matrimonium." I can only sing the mass in Latin, I can't actually translate it, I'm afraid. I'm still having fun watching though.

#256 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:51 PM:

I'm the same way about singing in Latin, EClaire. I have enough Spanish and general word-nerdery that I can see cognates, so I make up my own translations. Usually, they're rather more flowery than the actual ones. The English text is often dry, and I got sick of seeing "Ave Maria" begin with "Father in Heaven...."

A random requiem question: there is a composer whose name may be Lukas or Lukash, possibly Lukac. Hungarian, I believe, which is why I have trouble with that last letter. I have sung parts of a requiem by him, and they were gorgeous. Googling has not helped me find a recording anywhere, nor in fact any evidence that this is a real person.
Has anyone else heard of this guy? I liked the music a lot, and if I hallucinated three songs from college... that makes my college choral experience that much more interesting.

#257 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 09:58 PM:

Open threadiness: Sometimes I just want to reach through the internet and strangle someone. No, not Fred Phelps; let him find his own fate, and I hope it's dismal.

(OK, after writing this I decided some might not care to read a little rant where a gay porn site is central. There's nothing explicit here, but non ROT13ite if you don't want to read about that.)

Ab, V jnf ba n pung jurer fbzr crbcyr jrer qvfphffvat n tnl cbea fvgr, bar bs gubfr gung srngher nyyrtrqyl "fgenvtug" thlf.

Bar bs gurz pbzcynvarq gung gurl nyjnlf znxr bar bs gur fhcreznfphyvar uhaxf jrne "gung tnl nff yvcfgvpx."

Jryy svefg V grnfrq: "gurl znqr uvz jrne yvcfgvpx ba uvf NFF?" Gura V evqvphyrq: "Ur'f univat frk jvgu nabgure zna naq lbh'er pbzcynvavat gung gur YVCFGVPX vf tnl?!?" Gura V erzbafgengrq nobhg hfvat gur jbeq 'tnl' gb zrna ynzr naq fghcvq.

Ohg crbcyr jub ner hapbafpvbhf nyzbfg arire yvfgra. Creuncf V frag uvz n onq qernz va uvf jnxvat fyhzore. V'yy cebonoyl arire xabj.

#258 ::: shadowsong ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:13 PM:

Diatryma: the Hungarian spelling should be Lukács, although Google shows me no composers of that name. Conductor Ervin, Violist Pal, Soprano Georgina. Alternate spelling Lukasz also comes up with no composers.

Alas, Google has failed us.

#259 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:22 PM:

Roma Labens
undis moles percutiuntur
deserto in agro tempestas
agmen proiectum verberant
complent latrones spelaeum.

*I think this scans as a classical iambic dimeter if you give me an epic correption in the last line.

The rest:
vestes mirabiles fiunt
mancipes aerarii venantur
illos vectigalia fugientes
per cloaca oppidi municipalis

Arcana carmina scorta aedium
consopiunt
omnes venusti tenent
amicum comentitium.

Semnoprosopos* Cato
laudet mos maiorum
sed milites nimium firmi
agunt sedidionem stipendariorum causa.

Caesar lectum calet
dum non magnus criba
scribet NON AMO LABOREM
in tabulam publicam.

nec opibus nec clementia donati
parvuli aves cruribus rubris
colens *poikila ova
adspectant quamquam urbem peste corruptam.

omnino alibi pernumeri
greges transeunt
muscos aureos multa passum milia
cum silentio et citissime.

*semnoprosopos=holy-faced
poikilia=speckled

#260 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:28 PM:

of #144, Chris @ #223 wrote: I can stab at Anglemittum Circumservus -- natry-frag nebhaq-fynir, to be overliteral -- but I'm not drawing any enlightenment from that either.

Might a less literal translation of "Circumservus" by "jbexnebhaq"? If so, does that help at all?

(This is fun. Hooray for distributed problem-solving!)

#261 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:36 PM:

Er, on 'Anglemittus Circumservus' take a look at #253 above (it should be Raterynl Fngryfrei, I was typing it in Rot-13).

#262 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:43 PM:

candle @ #186:

"Gung vf abg qrnq juvpu pna rgreany yvr..."

#263 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:50 PM:

Julie L. @ #198: Shouldn't that really be "Matwimonium. Matwimonium esse quae conciwiawe nobis hodie" etc.?

I did try that (as well as "Matuimonium" etc., because the Latin looked odd with Ws), but I couldn't settle on a satifactory version of some of the words - "amor" in particular.

#264 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 10:56 PM:

Fragano @ #253:

Ah. Well, that explains why I didn't recognise it.

#265 ::: HP ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:00 PM:

@ 211: there's always a nagging question in the back of my mind, "Did I like/dislike the book or the translation??"

Did anyone else try to read that translation of Koji Suzuki's Dark Water that came out a couple of years ago? I'm pretty sure I disliked the translation, not the stories. I just couldn't believe that a Japanese narrator of a Japanese story for a Japanese audience would refer to a tatami room as "the Japanese-style room." Or that the pet name Iko-chan would be consistently rendered "little Ikoku." Or again, that this putative narrator of a Japanese story for a Japanese audience would commit an atrocity of a sentence like, "She combed her brownish, wavy hair, which is unusual for a Japanese woman."

I had to set the book down unfinished.* For the record, I don't speak word one of Japanese, and I'm not some manga-toting American otaku. I don't think I know any more about Japanese culture than I know about Brazilian culture or Italian culture or, for that matter, British culture. But I hate it when a translation interpolates explanations of things that are common knowledge or that I can glean from context. I hate being translated down to.

*On the other hand, my sister liked it, and I like my sister, so go figure.

#266 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:08 PM:

Fragano @ 251... Interesting. Another French version of that saying is Traduire, c'est trahir, or To translate is to betray.

Nevertheless, I'm glad for translations because otherwise there'd have been very little SF for me to feed my mind with. Better to have an approximation of a story's original intent than no story at all.

#267 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:09 PM:

Diatryma, 256: I bet you're thinking of György Ligeti. Portions of his Requiem were used in Kubrick's 2001.

#268 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:10 PM:

Sue and I popped in our DVD of Firefly's pilot. Guess what? We loved it as much as we originally did.

#269 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:13 PM:

259, J. U. Nhqra, "Gur Snyy bs Ebzr"

#270 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:14 PM:

Terry Karney @ 252... when I was making slugs on a linotype

First slugs,
Next humans?
It's alive, alive!

#271 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:16 PM:

Which I got the moment I saw the fifth stanza. I laughed very hard, and made Patrick come look.

#272 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:20 PM:

Xopher #257: I admit, I sometimes use "gay" that way. When I do it, I wouldn't say I'm exactly being ironic, but it's always a marked usage.

#273 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:50 PM:

Chris Quinones: the sample of the Requiem on Amazon were not the same. It's possible that the sample was a part I didn't sing, but it didn't match the bits I did sing, if that makes sense.

Xopher, 'gay' is troublesome. I don't like it as a perjorative, but sometimes it's hilarious-- a friend of mine, while trash-talking to her son over a Buffy game, once spat out, "Your mom's gay!" and heard dead silence through the rest of the room... and then everyone burst out laughing because, well, she is, and she is not afraid to say so.
When treated seriously, it's bad. When treated as a joke, but poorly, it's cringe-inducing. When treated as a joke, but well, it's hilarious.

#274 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2008, 11:56 PM:

I find it amusing in this thread that the first entry in the 1337key transformer submenu is "Latin to 1337".

#275 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:07 AM:

I just found a really cool time waster.


Seed

You start with a seed. You plant it. You can clone it, or cross it. Crossing will have some change, cloning may have some gentic drift.

You keep crossing for traits you like. There can only be five plants at a time.

There are some tricks, but I'll leave them to you to find out.

You can save the code, and so share interesting flowers with your friends.

#276 ::: B. Durbin ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:34 AM:

Xopher @ #177, 224: Oooh. That sounds like LOTS of fun. Denver will be my third Worldcon— 1st was half-day only, and I was too late to see most of the stuff (including, alas, the art show.) I was also a bit young in the ways of conventions.

2nd was very cool but the only people I really knew were the family I'd come with. So I never did get to filking or anything of that sort (though I did have a blast regardless; there's just a limit to what you can do if you're staying at your sister's, a mile-point-five away, you're walking, and your backpack is full of the hardbacks you're getting signed. And you have to be back in time for dinner.)

The weird thing is that this one will be the first convention for which I'm actually staying at a convention hotel, and can plausibly be out doing things on my own. Though probably Squirmy's going to be setting a lot of the schedule; there is this whole feeding thing I'll need to be taking care of.

But if I can, I will be glad to join. I'll also teach my children's song version of "Quantum materiæ materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari." It might be able to be sung as a round but I haven't bothered to transcribe it and find out.

#277 ::: JESR ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:48 AM:

Beyond a whole lot of botanical names, the only Latin I have by right is "Illegitimi non Carborundum" and I rue the day I lost my Tshirt with those words in a banner over the geoduc and fir trees...

That said, this thread has been an education in more ways than one.

#278 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:49 AM:

Xopher @#257: Jryy svefg V grnfrq: "gurl znqr uvz jrne yvcfgvpx ba uvf NFF?"

ROFL, that's how I initially read it too. In the same vein:

V bapr pbzcynvarq gb n sevraq gung gur sevrq evpr sebz gur ybpny gunv cynpr "gnfgrf yvxr nff," zrnavat fvzcyl gung vg gnfgrf onq, naq ur dhvgr fvapreryl fnvq "bu, qb lbh guvax fb? Gung'f jrveq, V qba'g guvax vg qbrf ng nyy."

I also sometimes use "gay" to mean "dorky/useless" but I'm training myself out of it, since words like that are always used to signify social grouping in one way or another. I'm not gay enough, myself, to use it ironically the way my gay friends do, so when I say it, I'm socially grouping myself with...I guess with adolescents, who are almost universally homophobic (and heterophobic...we're mostly omniphobic at that age, where difference and/or sexuality are concerned).

#279 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:06 AM:

Last week, one of my cubicle neighbors gave me a ride back home in his hybrid. His teenage son apparently calls it a 'gay' car. I didn't quite get it until the man explained that, when the kid said 'gay', he was really substituting it to the word 'queer' in its older meaning of 'weird'. I kid you not.

#280 ::: Sylvia Li ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:16 AM:

Terry, that's a truly evil time-sink.

So not the kind of thing I should be handed when it's already long past bedtime.

#281 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:52 AM:

Diatryma @ #256 -

Might it have been Zdenek Lukas (Zdeněk Lukáš)? Czech rather than Hungarian.

http://cdmusic.cz/inshop/shop.asp?kat=CQ00142211

http://www.musicfayre.com/classical_music/item/cq0053-2.html.en

#282 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 03:07 AM:

So, I don't know if I'm going to be sleeping. A friend has just gone into labor, and I'm off.

#283 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 03:34 AM:

@#256, continued: Googling on the name above, plus [requiem mp3] yields some additional hits that may or may not help.

http://www.emusic.com/album/Karen-Grylls-CHOIR-OF-THE-WORLD-MP3-Download/11111278.html

http://www.radio.cz/mp3/podcast/fr/faits/070717-zdenek-lukas-un-compositeur-aime-de-choeurs.mp3

#284 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 04:28 AM:

dido @247 Composition is totally addictive. --

Both my children are taking Latin in school. The German school system drives me NUTS. They ONLY learn to translate. If I ask them, "How would you say _____?" they get seriously irritated with me. They're not expected to, you know, manipulate the language in their brains and actually use it, and they're affronted when I ask them to. *sigh* What a waste.

#285 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 04:39 AM:

JESR@277: I'm not sure if you realize that's not really Latin...? It's a made-up phrase that sounds like it could mean what it's claimed to mean, but uses words that weren't really used by the Romans.

dido@216: Wow! Well done!

candle@180: Yes, Greek has third-person imperatives. They're not translatable as a single word, but that doesn't make them untranslatable. One result of that is, a Greek subjunctive verb is hortatory, or strongly urging, where a Latin subjunctive would be jussive, or commanding.

On another topic entirely: I was thinking about Life on Mars fanfic...Sam/Gene (of course); Gene/Annie (ick); Annie/The Test Pattern Girl (huh?) and there popped into my head "Sam/Frodo". Maybe a crossover fanfic where Sam gets hit by a car in 1973 and wakes up in Middle-Earth.

#286 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 04:58 AM:

Fragano @ 253:
That would account for my not recognizing it. Never read it.

#287 ::: Neil Willcox ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 05:59 AM:

I was never taught latin* so can't decline or conjugate but I seem to have picked up quite a bit along the way (along the lines of pro bono publico** and so on). I'm still working on some of them. But it reminds me that it was only while reading Robert Harris' Imperium earlier this month that I realised what the word inaugural originally meant***.

* Hence my first try at Inane…ultimus limes was [something]...last wall?
** For some reason that last word is always left off.
*** This despite being a sucker for novels set in ancient Rome.

#288 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 07:40 AM:

Terry Karney @ 282... Let us know how it turns out.

#289 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 07:56 AM:

dido @ 247... Wouldn't that be like carrying owls to Athens at this point?

Why, besides that Grey-eyed Athena*) already has one?

(*) I still think that Ingrid Berman's daughter was great in that role in 1997's Odyssey miniseries.

#290 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 08:20 AM:

xopher @ #257, I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, but I confess with shame that I laughed out loud when one of the Onion's criticisms of the Segway was "government-required sticker that reads 'Stay Back 100 Feet from Gay Little Scooter'."

#291 ::: Mez ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 09:15 AM:

I wonder if carrying owls to Athens is like coals to Newcastle?

Like others here, my Latin knowledge is gleaned and inferred from non-primary sources: botanical and biological studies, working in medicine and legal publishing, reading Roman and Mediaeval history, a long fascination with English etymology, and exposure to Romance languages through opera. Vocabulary, but almost no grammar. One of my sigs is "Finem respice et principiis obsta", but I depend on the kindness of others to have supplied the translation.

So I could work out 1 — originally thought it was from one of the Psalms, then, like shapes emerging from the morning mist, I comprehended phrases and grasped the whole. A wonderful sensation! This gave me a hint of the direction to go when I thought I recognized bits of 6, then 3, then of course! 2. But though I can pick out parts of the others, either I haven't read them or didn't make the connection (Raqre'f Tnzr, indeed).

I'm both humbled and excited to see what's developed in the comments, Mikael's #108 & dido's #259 lifted my soul indeed, as did the intercourse here as a whole. And there's some nice music to listen to as well.


#292 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 09:19 AM:

Owlmirror, I think that's it! I did not imagine the pretty songs!
I tried last night to find lists of Hungarian composers-- Wikipedia has a category of them. I checked Croatian, Czech, and Ukrainian, and nothing turned up. I had been hoping to find someone with a very similar name I could then Google.

Seed won't load for me. Alas, for I am forced to be productive.

#293 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 09:27 AM:

Amber (#184): Thanks for the info on Melbourne. I'm no traveller, but I have friends Down Under and would love to go there Someday. If I do, Melbourne's on the list -- maybe during the Open, so I could watch it all *live* on telly.

As for the displays of linguistic talent in this thead, I'm just gobsmacked! Having forgotten most of my H.S. Latin and college German (while retaining more of the French), I can't even claim a talent for reading upside-down. I *did* learn one thing from years of doing British-style cryptic crosswords: quite often I can decode an anagrammatic clue without thinking about it. So useful in daily life.

#294 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 09:30 AM:

Debbie 284: That's what I didn't like about Latin for Dummies. It explicitly states that it is NOT intended to enable you to compose Latin sentences, but only to read Latin texts! The same is true of my Middle Egyptian book.

Drives me crazy. What the HELL is the use of learning a language if you can't produce a sentence in it?!?!?!?

#295 ::: dcb ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 09:33 AM:

I did Latin for three years back in high school. "Caecilius est pater, Matella est mater, Quintus est filius" etc. didn't do me much good with these. But I've had fun working (some of) them out.

This has revealed a hole in our reference book collection - no Latin-English dictionary. Must fix that.

Re. Reading upside down - me too.

#296 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:01 AM:

Xopher -- On the one hand, the schools try to attract Latin pupils* and emphasize that Latin is not a dead language. They wax eloquent about how knowing Latin makes it easy to learn many other languages**. They talk about the importance of the Romans to European history and heritage (well, duh). Latin is a prerequisite for several college majors. And yet, I think that by the very act of deliberately leaving out the creative half of the "learning a language" equation, they condemn Latin to being a dead language where it counts: in the minds of their pupils. Not exactly a motivational attitude for other languages, either.

I for one would liven up the lessons by doing a unit on Roman graffiti, then having the students compose their own and spraypainting it on wallpaper. Reasonably chaste, of course. Or reading Asterix and Obelix in Latin, then maybe captioning their own cartoons....lots of possibilities. It's not like there aren't resources out there.

*to put those teachers to use who qualified in it aeons ago :)
**I've always argued that the reverse is just as valid

#297 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:03 AM:

Mez @ 291... my Latin knowledge is gleaned and inferred from non-primary sources: botanical and biological studies

Carnivorous Vulgaris
Road-Runnerus Digestus
Eatibus Anythingus
Famishus-Famishus
Eatibus Almost Anythingus
Eatius Birdius
Famishius Fantasticus
Eternalii Famishiis
Famishus Vulgarus
Vulgaris Ingeniusi
Famishius-Famishius
Unbelieveus Eatius-Slobbius
Hardheadipus Oedipus
Incalculus Carnivorous Slobbius
Hard-Headipus Ravenus
Evereadii Eatibus
Apetitius Giganticus
Hungrii Flea-Bagius
Overconfidentii Vulgaris
Idioticus Desertous-operativus Idioticus
Caninus Nervous Rex
Grotesques Appetitus
Nemesis Riduclii

#299 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:37 AM:

Serge
That reminnds me of the 'scientific name' my brother gave one of the critters he drew: E. flatteus grumbus. (Common name: flat-footed grumby. Has one foot and a large mouth.)

#300 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:49 AM:

P J Evans @ 299... Has one foot and a large mouth

And did the one-footed grumby put its foot in its mouth, at which comedy ensues?

Meanwhile. have you ever heard of the strigiphilus garylarsoni? It's a real creature, a biting louse of a genus only found on owls(*). And, yes, it was named in honor of the cartoonist Gary Larson.

(*) dido?

#301 ::: Peter Erwin ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 11:17 AM:

Serge @ 300:
Meanwhile. have you ever heard of the strigiphilus garylarsoni? It's a real creature, a biting louse of a genus only found on owls(*). And, yes, it was named in honor of the cartoonist Gary Larson.

There's also an Ecuadoran butterfly named after him (Serratoterga larsoni), along with an entire genus of beetles (Garylarsonus).

(From this delightful list of curious scientific names.)

#302 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 11:50 AM:

Peter Erwin @ 301... I rather like this one...

Albunea groeningi Boyko, 2002 (sand crab (Crustacea: Anomura: Albuneidae)) named for Matt Groening

#303 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 11:51 AM:

Lila @ 290 ...
xopher @ #257, I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, but I confess with shame that I laughed out loud when one of the Onion's criticisms of the Segway was "government-required sticker that reads 'Stay Back 100 Feet from Gay Little Scooter'."

Indeed, all I can picture now is the delightful ribbons and curls and a fine sunday bonnet ... on a Segway :)

#304 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 11:51 AM:

Lila @ 290 ...
xopher @ #257, I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, but I confess with shame that I laughed out loud when one of the Onion's criticisms of the Segway was "government-required sticker that reads 'Stay Back 100 Feet from Gay Little Scooter'."

Indeed, all I can picture now is the delightful ribbons and curls and a fine sunday bonnet ... on a Segway :)

#305 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:06 PM:

A train of thought too complex or silly to explain led me from one thing to another, and so, this little video is for TexAnne and Serge in the spirit of openthreadery.

#306 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:11 PM:

Whew.
Teresa @217 Hooray! But I have to say there is an atrocious number of typo's in it. I have some revisions below.

Debbie @284/Xopher @294/Debbie @296: One of the problems with teaching dead languages actively is that that there is a dearth of source material. Imagine trying to teach someone conversational English with only Chaucer (Plautus), Emily Dickinson (Catullus) and Macauley (Cicero) to work with. I don't say it can't be done, but it's hard and most teachers can't do it. Dorothy L. Sayers had it right when she suggested starting kids with medieval Latin.

Serge @289: Mez hit the nail on the head. Athenian coins were stamped with an owl and is exactly the ancient equivalent of "coals to Newcastle."

(259 revised and versified strophes 2 & 3)

vestes fiunt mirabiles;
captant ministri aerarii
hunc qui cloacis contegens
tributum vel abscondidit.

nunc carmina occulte sacra
scorta aedium consopiunt.
omni venusto fingitur
mendax amicus vacuus.


#307 ::: Mary Frances ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:36 PM:

Fragano@305: I played the video you linked to . . . and now I can't get the [expletive deleted] music out of my head! What IS that song? I have this awful feeling I should recognize it, or something like it, but I can't pin it down.

#308 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 12:55 PM:

Fragano @ 305... Thanks. I got a kick out of Asterix (like most Roman legionnaires, yes) making an appearance. It was weird seeing the words and recognizing them as if they were the French language of an alternate Reality. By the way, is it my imagination or did they end the song with a crack at George Washington Bush?

#309 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:01 PM:

dido @ 306... Hah! Again all knowledge can be found in ML. What I didn't get though was what Athena's birdie had to do with a Latin translation of Star Trek's monologue. It's probably obvious. Or maybe I got my wires crossed as to which of my posts you were responding to. When I find out, I'll probably be extremely embarassed, but that's ok. I can live with that if it means being made a teeny-weeny bit less ignorant.

#310 ::: Heather Rose Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:07 PM:

Xopher 294: Drives me crazy. What the HELL is the use of learning a language if you can't produce a sentence in it?!?!?!?

I agree completely. Given that I'm rather bad at learning languages myself, I spend a lot of time studying learning methods for languages, and have decided that the more different ways you interact with the language, the more likely it is to stick. And production covers half the possible interactions. The best learning experiences I've had included some very playful composition exercises (ask me sometime about the braided stories we came up with in Breton class). And when I started putting together my own "teach yourself Medieval Welsh" lessons, I made sure to include a lot of translation-into exercises as well as translation-from.

Tying into the more general theme of the thread, I've always tried to write at least one original poem in any language I've studied. They aren't very good, but there you are. Here's the one I wrote for Hittite class:

Kuis=mu ussaras menahhanda tiyazi
N=as wiyanas antuhsi kuis ekuzi
Nu HURSAG-az hariya uemi
Nu=ta ispantuzzi iyami
Namma=ya ekumi

#311 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:14 PM:

(I never studied Latin, though I spent several years reading and re-reading both the Ordinary and the Proper of the Mass before the vernacular busted through. Plus, I was briefly an altar boy memorizing prayers in Latin, then had to memorize them all over again in a new language.)

#3 was the only one I got. "Kemmerentes" (#2) and "'Versi" (#10) hinted at the source, at least, of those two.

So this is not my game. But, having spent several years among the Flurospherians, I have strengthened my ego against the realization that beings of stupendous intelligence and awesome erudition walk the Net.

Let them have their glee. There are other games played here; some of them, I am good at.

#312 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:20 PM:

Serge in #297 offers a list"

Carnivorous Vulgaris
Road-Runnerus Digestus
Eatibus Anythingus...

This reminds me that for some of us, all the German we knew, we learned from Hogan's Heroes. Achtung! Schnell! Verboten! Jawohl, mein Kommandant!

#313 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:23 PM:

Mary @ 307: That song is "Ai vis lo lop", which I am led by the video to believe is in occitane. I know it as one of the favorite remaining medieval songs; I know I have 2-3 different versions lying around my medieval reconstructions and medieval metal archives.

It might interest people to know that it has, also, survived in an obscure corner of Swedish folk music too. (or possibly, it's just been re-translated by the Swedish LARPers) There, the lyrics are


// Jag såg en ulv, en räv, en hare
Jag såg dem dansa alla tre //
Och jag dansade också med
Dansa med ulven, räven och haren
Och jag dansade också med
Dansade med dem alla tre

It's been made famous in the German medieval rock scene by the band In Extremo; who kinda mangle the text rather horribly. YouTube has a good example with some audience participation in the beginning.

Much more recommended would be the version by Saltatio Mortis (who call the song Leporina Venatio); or really anything from either Mediaeval Baebes, Corvus Corax or really anyone wielding a bagpipe. There's a horrible recording of Saltatio Mortis' version up on YouTube - don't judge them by that though. :)

#314 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:30 PM:

Bill Higgins... Let them have their glee. There are other games played here; some of them, I am good at.

"They laughed at me during mass, but I'll show them what mass is! Bwahahahah!!!"

Thus did altar boy Bill start down the path that led him to Criminal Mastermindness, a career that abruptly ended when a leak in the anti-matter container resulted in his home being replaced by a huge crater.

#315 ::: Mary Frances ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:40 PM:

Mikael@313: Occitane, huh? Rats. Bit off the beaten path for me, but I still should have spotted it. Thanks. And thanks for the recommendations, too.

#316 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 01:59 PM:

Mary Frances #307: The song is an original Occitan song, as far as I know. The point of the video (with its play on the Astérix comics) is Occitan nationalist.

#317 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:02 PM:

Serge #308: The Roman legionnaires definitely got their kicks.

#318 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:13 PM:

OK, very very late to the party and my Latin suffers over 30 years of disuse, but I'll put my mark down. (P.S. I took as my rule for myself that using a dictionary would be cheating except for trying to suggest my own wording for something.)

V. Gur Yvgnal ntnvafg Srne, Qhar
VV. Sebz Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff (juvpu V jnf bayl fher bs qhr gb "xrzzreragrf".)
VVV. Gur Fgne Gerx vagebvg. (Creuncf "pbryhz nfgebehz" jbhyq or gur orfg ercynprzrag sbe "vanar"?)
VI. Qba'g xabj; purngrq naq cbxrq ng bguref' nafjref naq sbhaq V qvqa'g xabj gur obbx naq sryg orggre.
I. Fgne Jnef; V guvax vg'f Bov Jna'f fcrrpu gb Yhxr?
IV. Ybiryl, irel ybiryl. Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba sebz gur YbgE.
IVV. Nobhg Naqrefba'f snoyr bs Gur Rzcrebe'f Arj Pybgurf, ohg V qba'g erpbtavmr guvf cuenfvat; V guvax vg'f sebz nagbure pbagrkg V qba'g trg.
IVVV. V nyzbfg tnir hc ba guvf bar naq gura vg fhqqrayl pyvpxrq - vg'f gur cevaprff'f fbat sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea
VK. Qvqa'g xabj ng svefg nf "qrbefhz" jnf hasnzvyvne; V bayl tbg vg sebz frrvat bguref' qvfphffvba bs gur jbeqvat, kxpq, rgp. Raqre'f Tnzr, "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja"
K. Qba'g xabj; ng svefg tynapr gbbx vg sbe gur "Zngivzbaviz..." cnffntr sebz Gur Cevaprff Oevqr gung fbzrbar ryfr yngre jebgr, ohg nsgre ernqvat n srj fragraprf, fnj gung pbhyqa'g or vg.

Now that I've written this, I can go look at the rot-13ed answers for that last one.

Susan and Xopher, I think you should collaborate on a historical dance and linguistics quiz, so that you have your chance to make the Latin scholars feel completely stumped and undereducated. We can't all know everything, much as I've always wanted to.

#319 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:43 PM:

Serge @ 45

I don't know her personally, but I discovered her writing recently in English, and was very impressed that she had translated it herself. Aside from the fluency in both languages that shows, it also shows a commitment to the work, as something worthy of the care she's uniquely able to bring to it, that I find admirable. If I could read French I'd read all her work in both languages to see how phrases and images diverge between the two.

#320 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:43 PM:

Mary @ 307: As soon as that video started playing, I recognized both the tune and the tonality as being not quite identical, but extremely close, to Sisters of Mercy's 'First and Last and Always'. If this is an old Occitan tune, I'd say they looted it thoroughly; and if you've listened to their music, that might be why it grabbed you as so familiar.

#321 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 02:53 PM:

Owlmirror, 281/283: Wow, good work finding Lukas! I'm tempted by the CD of choral music you found; obscure Czech composers have generally been worth my while, when I listen to their work. Not that I need any more CDs or classical-music vendors in my life, of course...

Here's some more info on Lukas I ran across.

#322 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 03:25 PM:

David Goldfarb @ 285

Well, Sam Tyler is a little guy, so I can see the attraction.

#323 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 04:28 PM:

Terry @275: Seed

Argh. I have already discovered this game's equivalent of whatever you call the phenomenon of being imprinted by Tetris into "seeing" a continuous cascade of blocks when your eyes are closed, or when you're aimlessly staring at square bathroom tiles-- flowers slooowly unfurling, one after another.

Wish there were some way to save a particular plant from being replaced, esp. when back-crossing to fix a recessive trait. Some of the random mutations are really very random.

#324 ::: Mary Frances ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 05:26 PM:

Fragano @ 316: Thanks to you, too. I got that the video was nationalist of some sort, more or less, but I'm one of those people who still thinks "provenal" rather than "occitane," and for some reason the disconnect was driving me crazy.

Clifton @ 320: Good suggestion, but I don't regularly listen to the Sisters of Mercy, so if it was an echo, it was a pretty dim and distant one. I've also got kind of a tin ear when it comes to recognizing music, so it was probably something much more general than that.

#325 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 05:27 PM:

Xopher @ 294

I write to dead people.

#326 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 06:30 PM:

Bruce Cohen @ 319... I'll make sure to let Elisabeth know what you said.

#327 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 06:35 PM:

I spent most of today getting my back tattooed. I would like to take this opportunity to thank ML and the Fluorosphere for handing me such an excellent distraction. (I am not one of those people who enjoys the process.)

The rest of Roma Labens has been translated with no cheating. If anyone wants it, let me know.

#328 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 06:39 PM:

Serge @309 It might be me misunderstanding but qvqa'g Nov nyernql qb gung va ahzore 3? Zl fpvrapr svpgvba xabjyrqtr vf ybhfl. *Fnq.*

#329 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 06:47 PM:

The latest SciFi Original Movie is titled Blood Monkey.

Yep. Just like it sounds.

#330 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 07:11 PM:

Xopher @329:
My earworm. Let me share it with you...

Blood monkey get up see students
Blood monkey hide in trees
Blood monkey just wants to mangle
All the humans that he sees.
Men say blood monkey very interesting
But his temper stinks
Too prone to aggressiveness and violence
What do blood monkey think?

Blood monkey think maybe scientists ought to make peace with coming death
Blood monkey not scream it out loud
Blood monkey likes them feisty, not cowed

Blood monkey likes victims
Blood monkey likes killing something new
Blood monkey very simple chimp
Big cruel teeth and taste for gore
Blood monkey wants you.

...I could go on, but really, there's no need.

#331 ::: JESR ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 07:19 PM:

Also, I made a mistake last night: theslogan of The Evergreen State College, to go with our mascot, the geoduc or giant clam, is Omnia Extares.

#332 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 07:33 PM:

abi @ 330: For perpetrating that, I think you ought to be severely punished.

How about starting with translating "Still Alive" into Latin?

#333 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 07:37 PM:

(I know I'm not up to it)

(Jocularum est. HAHA. Fortuna magna!)

#334 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 08:27 PM:

Julie L. #323:

Re: Seed, I keep notepad open while I'm playing, and then drag any promising plants up into the little dna-showing thing. Then copy and paste the dna string into notepad. If I want that same plant back later, I copy the dna string into the game.

Why, yes, I did just start playing today, thanks to this thread. And I already have a "system." Seed is evil.

#335 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 08:42 PM:

Mary @334: *headdesk* Somehow it had failed to dawn on me that the DNA strings could be pasted (or indeed edited in vitro, so to speak) as well as copied.

Right. Time to start reverse-engineering from the examples in the "shop".....

#336 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 09:35 PM:

Xopher #329: Did you see what the tagline is? "The next step in evilution."

#337 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:17 PM:

Well, I knew my Latin was rusty, but I should have done better than 1,2(*),3,6 (and 7, which I could read but not assign --- shameful considering how many times I've gone to read something else, taken one of those volumes just to skim, and come up for air an hour later).

*I really did figure it before getting to the obvious bit that Bill Higgins pointed to; there ought to be \something/ analogous and usable, even if it looks a bit like Herb "Populus iamdudum defutatus est" Denenberg.

And if we're doing mistranslations, my favorite is "Cave canem": Beware, I may sing.

Mary@161: Boynton gets \half/ the credit; I know of the composer and think he finally found his level....

Steve@76: the half-price tickets booth in Times Square. Usually doesn't bring theater down to movie prices, but sometimes it's close. http://www.newvictory.org is a theater that does shows kids and grownups can appreciate -- I saw The Wolves in the Walls there. I second AHT's recommendation; there are more sedate listings, but Time Out (from the bit I've seen, and greater knowledge of the London original) is more likely to point out naked emperors and bring up hidden gems).

Gursky@105: Can you find Land of Unreason? The Blue Star? (I assume you know that NESFA has reprinted the complete Harold Shea stories.)

Chris@148: Did that line strike you as it did me as being the worst cross-character bit in the movie? Way too much of his best-known part leaking through....

dido@216: I don't see guesses on this (maybe due to my blindness), but it nags that I ought to recognize -- rot13'd answer? hints?

diatryma@256: that's obnoxious, but so is an alleged Credo beginning -"I believe in a God who will smite my enemies..."- (IIRC it was a translation of a Schubert collection of ~hymns that was for some reason called a mass.)

#338 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:47 PM:

Home again, and finally out of my boots. Soon to bed.

She did well enough, he did fine. A boy (as expected) apparently well and healthy. Has ten fingers, ten toes, and, two eyes, one set of lungs (perfectly functional) and the razor blades which pass for nails.

He and mother are doing well. Maia and I are wiped out.

Labor was a total of 20.5 hours. Notable labor was about 18. Serious labor was (depending on how one wants to measures such things) five hours, or 15 (once the epidural went in, things were much quieter).

Once she got to pushing, all was cake. Four good ones, and then hold a bit to prevent serious tearing on five, and then the kid was squalling his way to pinkness.

He wasn't, to everyone's amazement, squished looking.

Now to bed. I'll be posting some seed genotypes when I awaken.

#339 ::: Fade Manley ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 10:53 PM:

On Latin being taught as a dead language... Well, that's the only reason I've ever had any luck in learning it. I do realize that there's more value in being able to actually speak Latin, or compose in it, than merely being able to translate. But I'm quite horrid at learning living languages, especially once people want me to start talking in them. Latin and Greek are the only foreign languages I've had much success with learning because they were nailed down firmly on the paper, and if I could write them it didn't matter if I couldn't speak them.

I am all for old languages being taught in vivid ways, but if they're taught as living languages, I won't be able to learn them at all. So I'm sort of biased on this point.

#340 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2008, 11:59 PM:

Open thread tidbit:
Pakistan Tribune on battles in Waziristan
Look closely at the map.

I wonder how that came about?

#341 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:13 AM:

The creator of "Seed" has it mirrored on DeviantArt here, along with a list of several more notable flowers that aren't in the shop yet. Whee!

#342 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:16 AM:

CHip: abi @ #39 started me off. I'm gobsmacked to find that it was comprehensible (or even identifiable).

Fade: I'm the same way; I can read French fairly fluently, German with labor and toil and (thanks to Latin) get the gist of Italian and Spanish but when I listen it's all gibberish and I freeze if expected to produce even, "Where's the bathroom?/Waiter there's a fly in my soup/ I have the pen of the gardener's aunt," style conversation.

Also: I need help. What does "obSF" stand for? I get the SF, but the Ob/ob is puzzling. "Observation derived from a data point originating with Science Fiction/Fantasy,"? And where does it come from?

#343 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:37 AM:

What I have learned, now that Seed is working for me: Do not make flowers with two hundred blossoms. It does not help.

#344 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:45 AM:

Clifton, that map is priceless. It's not April 1 in the universe in which that's published, either.

#345 ::: Mary Frances ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:00 AM:

Linkmeister @ 344 & Clifton @ 340: You mean it's for real?? But--but--who runs the Pakistan Tribune?

Or is it just so late my brain has melted and I'm missing the point?

#346 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:08 AM:

Also: I need help. What does "obSF" stand for? I get the SF, but the Ob/ob is puzzling. "Observation derived from a data point originating with Science Fiction/Fantasy,"? And where does it come from?

It means "OBligatory SF for this post", and comes from the days of Usenet and the like. People were taken to task (with greater or lesser frequency depending on the group and the mood of others) for off-topic posts, so a habit developed of making whatever your off-topic post was and then including your ObSF to placate those who would otherwise be peeved.

Doing it here is of course unnecessary, but the habit persists for the fun of it.

#347 ::: JESR ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:31 AM:

Diatryma, believe me, that's very realistic. Which is why the next thing I have to do, when it dries out again, is prune and confine my Ispahan damask, or any rain during its bloom period will render the whole plant a mass of sweet scented brown glop. (That's the after pruning version, seven feet tall and twenty wide, in early bloom).

#348 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:38 AM:

dido @ 342: What Carrie @ 346 said, plus -- the 'Net shorthand uses "ob-" as a prefix for whatever obligatory topic one is now addressing, e.g. "ObLegal: I am not an attorney, so what I've just said should not be taken as legal advice"; "ObTechnical: This applies to System 3.14159, but may not be useful for earlier or later releases"; "ObElvis: Since we've just been discussing the elections on alt.music.elvis, let's admit that who becomes President doesn't matter, because Elvis is still the King!"

#349 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:44 AM:

I've seen obVil used when describing the villain in a book; I took it as "obvious."

Mary Frances @ #345, I dunno about Clifton, but I suspect a Photoshopping prankster in the IT department of the PakTrib.

#350 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:47 AM:

Abi: I must admit that the first two words of #5 overrode, in my mind, all the words that followed, and I was forced, forced, to read the entry as: Guvf vf n fgbel 'obhg n zna anzrq Wrq, n cbbe zbhagnvarre, oneryl xrcg uvf snzvyl srq.... -- which isn't science fiction, exactly, unless the sociological type extends to culture-shock stories, like jungle boys brought to the big city, Greystoke et all.

#351 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:50 AM:

[Should I cop to wretchedly poor punning with "et all", or wait for the inevitable corrections?]

#352 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:11 AM:

Clifton @ 340: It's a matter of legibility. Imagine this shrunk to the same size. Would you have been able to make out any details?

For the War on Iran, expect the Bush Administration to distribute maps of Oz, on the same principle...

... that hardly anyone (not enough to matter) will know the difference.

Meanwhile, Pakistan had better keep a close (and big flaming) eye on Waziristan!

#353 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:25 AM:

Now I'm thinking of a Waziristan success story, about a man named Wrq (ibn Tenaal), originally one of the impoverished Zbhagnvarre tribe, whose territory providentially included an oil field, and who now lives a life of luxury in Islamabad....

#354 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:32 AM:

Pyre #350: That was my first thought on #5, too. Sanity (of sorts) prevailed.

#355 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:47 AM:

For that matter, although it is possible to make Seed produce flowers with arbitrary numbers of petal-tiers, that does not mean that it is a good idea. (And if you do anyway, then for god's sake don't make a plant with more than two or three of them. This one has just one: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xeeee66, 10101010, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8 )

#356 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:23 AM:

Pyre, I'm with you on the need for legibility. You can't get much info in an image that small,

But that's so obviously not Waziristan. It's like using a map of Florida for an article about Spain.

#357 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 05:36 AM:

Fade @339 -- I was just thinking of it from a levels-of-processing angle. If you engage in composing sentences in any language, you're manipulating the information in a deeper manner, which increases the probability that you'll remember more of it. Writing is just as good as speaking, as far as that goes. My husband had over 5 years of Latin in school, but every time I ask him "Hey, what does this mean?" he has no idea. He learned the same way my kids are now, strictly translation.

#358 ::: Neil Willcox ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 06:44 AM:

A few minutes of searching for Waziristan got me this. The map clearly has satirical intent there. Has someone in the Pakistan Trubune got lazy?

Xopher #294, Debbie #296, you can also getHarrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis*. Nevertheless I think there's a place for language guides that allow you to just about get by. I've been to Italy and Spain with only enough of local language to ask where does the bus go from and when does it arrive; this actually made me designated Italian speaker for a villa of four when we went out for a wedding. I found the bad phrasebook that didn't tell me how to say things in the imperfect tense, but did tell me the word for toilet roll very useful.

Not a good way to learn a language I agree.


* In the same gift shop where I first encountered this, I also ran into little tiny Venus di Milo copies labeled in latin and greek; my first thought on seeing the greek was "that doesn't say Venus, that's an Alpha, a Phi, a Rho... oh, yeah..."

#359 ::: Jon Meltzer ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:14 AM:

#330: Manager Rob approves.

#360 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:39 AM:

dido @ 328... Oops. And a few words about myself that I shall not utter in polite company - which ML is... Say... Would translating back to English wind up with interesting results?

#361 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:43 AM:

Sue and I had our 22nd wedding anniversary, just her and me as usual. What wasn't usual is that she actually managed to get me a present that I did not expect: a 12-inch-tall Dalek with a radio control. I can't wait to use it to chase our dogs around the house. On second thought... I think the Dalek would lose.

#362 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:52 AM:

Fade (339), dido (342): What I appreciated most about learning Latin was that no one expected me to carry on a conversation in it. We did a little composition--not much--which was fine because it was on paper, and we could take our time over it. Conversing for me is a double-whammy: I don't process spoken information all that well, and there's no time to stop and think about what you're trying to say. (For much the same reasons, I often prefer email to the phone.)

#363 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:59 AM:

Serge @#361: geek love is the best love, isn't it? Congratulations on 22 years!

#364 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 10:18 AM:

Serge # 361 -

Congratulations on the 22nd!

The Dalek sounds cool - I might have to look that up. My wife is a serious Whovian.

I'm warped. I just had a vision of a Dalek pope, who goes around shouting EXCOMMUNICATE! EXCOMMUNICATE!

#365 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 10:24 AM:

Re the Waziristan map: did anyone else notice the "Cheney/Satan '08" bumpersticker ad?

#366 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 11:57 AM:

CarrieS @ 346 and Pyre @348: Thank you! No wonder I couldn't figure it out from context. I could tell "observation" wasn't right but couldn't guess what was.

Serge @360: Yup; hopefully it will be really funny. Abi? Shall I translate and rot13 them?

Also--one of my dearest friends is going to be so jealous when she hears about your Dalek. Congrats on the anniversary.

#367 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:07 PM:

Serge #361: Ex-ter-mi-WOOF.

#368 ::: coffeedryad ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:26 PM:

There's also the stories of the Procurator Odiosus Ex Infernis for extended geekiness in Latin.

#369 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:51 PM:

dido@342: The hint points to possibilities, but I'm not making anything fit even with a computerized dictionary. Annoying, since I reread those 6 years ago, but memory fades.

#370 ::: dcb ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 12:56 PM:

Nothing to do with Latin etc., but this is an Open Thread. So:

Has anyone else had a problem with Yahoo's security questions? I'm trying to retrieve my username and password. I've given my postcode, e-mail address and date of birth and been "rewarded" with my username. "Customer care" says they can't help me with my password unless I give them the answer to my security question: "Please provide us with the answer to the secret question you entered during your Yahoo! registration." Problem is, they refuse to ask me the question - I'm trying (so far without success) to explain that it's difficult to provide the correct answer if they won't ask the question...

Any ideas for explaining to them why this is a problem?

All suggestions gratefully received.

#371 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:21 PM:

dido @366:
Shall I translate and rot13 them?

If you have the time, that would be really interesting to see. I suspect it'll highlight a fair few mistakes, but I'm content with that.

#372 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 01:42 PM:

Dido @ 342: I got it with that hint. I should have gotten it the first time when my eyes glazed over looking at the sentence structure.

CHip @ 369: You wrote "them", so you were looking at the wrong part of that suggestion; it's the other part of that hint. Again, if you've read the work in question, the length and structure of the sentences should zing it.

#373 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:04 PM:

NOTA BENE: In the spirit of the French "Jumping Frong of Calavaras County," the English is what is called "Translation-ese" in some circles; i.e. there is no attempt made to create a smooth or idiomatic English. It in no way reflects on the "Latinity" of my sources. Sometimes I had to fake up the awkwardness a bit.

Corrections and conjectures are noted in bold. Normally this would go in a apparatus criticus.

I beg indulgence for any errors in translation, conjecture or judgment.

Aliqui illustres loci communes:

Fbzr snzbhf pbzzba cnffntrf va yvgrengher.

1. Timendum non est mihi. Timor mentem caedet. Timor mortulus qui totam lituram ferat. Obviam timore meo ibo. Me transire et perire sinam. Et cum transiverit oculo interiore viam suam perspiciam. Ubi timor iit, nil erit. Ego solus manebo.

1. Gurer zhfg abg or n srnevat ol zr. Srne jbhaqf gur zvaq. Srne vf n yvggyr qrngu bs gur fbeg juvpu pneevrf gur jubyr renfher. V jvyy tb va gur jnl bs zl srne. V jvyy abg nyybj zlfrys gb cnff guebhtu naq crevfu. Rira jura V jvyy unir cnffrq guebhtu V jvyy vafcrpg zl yvsr jvgu na vaare rlr. Jurer srne unf tbar, abguvat jvyy rkvfg. V nybar jvyy erznva.

2. Lux laeva obscuritatis
et obscuritas dextra lucis.
Duo unus sunt, vita morsque, iacens
una quasi amatores kemmerentes
quasi manus conjuncti
quasi finis viaque.

2. Gur unccl yvtug bs bofphevgl
naq gur cebcvgvbhf bofphevgl bs gur yvtug.
Gjb ner bar, yvsr naq qrngu, ylvat
gbtrgure nf vs xrzzreragrf ner ybiref
nf vs unaqf unir orra pbawbvarq
nf vs gur raq naq gur ebnq rkvfg.

3. Inane…ultimus limes. Hi cursi navis stellis Incepti. Eius quinquennialum munus: insolitos novos mundos explorare, vitam novam civitatesque novas quaerere, ubi nemo ante ivit intrepide ire.*

Ibvq . . . gur svany guerfuubyq. Gurfr ner gur wbhearlf bs gur fuvc sbe gur fgnef Ortvaavat. Vgf svir lrne qhgl: hanpphfgbzrq arj jbeyqf gb rkcyber, arj yvsr naq arj fgngrf gb frrx, jurer ab bar orsber unf tbar obyqyl gb tb.

4. Reginula aurea volavit
Ad mare sibulans
Ut sinus obsteterit
Et ova servaverit
Fortiter audivit ea.

4. Gur yvggyr tbyqra dhrra unf ebyyrq
gb gur frn juvfcrevat
nf fur fgbbq va gur jnl bs gur onlf
naq cerfreirq ure rttf
obyqyl fur yvfgrarq.

5. Numen Iedaio vim suum dat. Ager vigoris est qui omnia viva creat. Nos circumfundit penetratque. Omnes res conligat.

5. N qvivar cbjre tvirf vg’f sbepr gb Wrqnvhf. Gur snez bs fgeratgu vf gung juvpu perngf nyy yvivat guvatf. Vg cbhef bhg nebhaq hf naq crargengrf hf. Vg ovaqf nyy guvatf gbtrgure.

6. Via semper usque it
Unde coeperuntianuae./ coepit ianua
Nunc longe Via praeivit,
Et persequi, si possum,
Avidis debeo pedibus,
Dum maioram iungietur
In munerum coetu.
Et quoquo tunc? Nescio.

6. Gur ebnq tbf nyjnlf ba nyy fvqrf
sebz jurer gur qbbef unir ortha.
Abj gur ebnq tbrf sne orsber,
naq gb chefhr, vs V pna
V bhtug jvgu terrql srrg,
juvyr vg jvyy or wbvarq va erfcrpg gb gur terngre ebnq
va n tngurevat bs tvsgf.
naq gb jung rire cynpr gura? V qba’g xabj.

7. Semper ius (suggestion: “fas”) puerum puerorum** stultorumque est imperatorem sine veste monstrare. Sed stultus manet stultus imperatorque imperator . *I’m not sure why the original abl. here and am afraid I'm missing something.

Vg vf nyjnlf evtug sbe puvyqera naq sbbyf gb cbvag ng gur Pbzznaqre jvgubhg pybguvat. Ohg gur sbby erznvaf n sbby naq gur pbzznaqre n pbzznaqre.


8. Filia sum regis
Et si curare curem
Luna indominata
In crinem coruscet.
Nemo amare audet
Quod avere opto
Numquam egevi
Et non tenui.

Filia sum regis
Et veteresco intra
Carcerem corporis
Compedesque cutis.
Et ego fugam
Ad ianuasque mendicem
Ut umbram tuam videam
Semel nec iterum.
8. V nz gur qnhtugre bs n xvat,
naq vs V fubhyq or pbaprearq gb pner
gur zbba univat orra hapbadhrerq
jvyy synfu va zl unve.
Ab bar qnerf gb ybir
Jung V pubbfr gb jnag
V unir arire jnagrq
naq qvq abg unir.

V nz gur qnhtugre bs n xvat
naq jvguva V tebj byq
B! gur cevfba bs gur obql
naq gur punvaf bs gur fxva!
V nyfb jvyy syrr
naq jvyy or n orttne ng gur qbbef
va beqre gung V znl frr lbhe funqbj
bapr naq abg ntnva.


9. Portus Porta† hostium deorsum.

9. Gur tngrf bs gur rarzvrf ner qbjajneq.

10. Amor. Si omnes numeres ‘Versi sciens inamandum navem in aerem te ferre , ea certe ut mundi convertunt te decutiet. Amor eam in aeram cadendam tenet doloremque ante vagens dicit. Domus facit.

10. Ybir. Vs lbh fubhyq pbhag nyy gur zra bs gur ‘Irefhf, xabjvat gung lbh pneel n fuvc juvpu zhfg abg or ybirq vagb gur hccre nve, gung (fuvc) pregnvayl jvyy phg lbh qbja jura gur jbeyqf bireghea. Ybir ubyqf vg sbe gur checbfr bs nterrvat jvgu gur nve naq ybir orsber jnaqrevat fnlf “fnqarff.” Vg znxrf ubzrf.

Agnoscite, reddite, addite, gaudete. Lex Calvinballis pertinet. Omnes coniecturas ROT-13ite.

Erpbtavmr, erghea, nqq, erwbvpr. Gur Ynj bs Pnyivaonyy ubyqf. Ebg-13 nyy thrffrf.

Subicit Patricius:

1. Ne Noli‡ armato merdam iace iacere‡.
2. Ne Noli‡ iuxta armato merdam iacentem sta stare‡.

Cngevpx fhozvgf:

1) Qba’g guebj fuvg ng n zna univat orra nezrq.
2) Qba’g fgnaq arne fbzrbar guebjvat fuvg ng na nezrq zna.

#374 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:08 PM:

CHip: Oops, I'd forgotten that there are actually two suggestions in #39, Clifton is right--google some of the words in Abi's footnote and you should get the original source.

#375 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:25 PM:

Mary Dell @ 363... Steve C @ 364... Fragano @ 367...

Thanks. Geek Love indeed. Here 's how K9 responded to the Dalek intruder's threats of extermination.

#376 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:43 PM:

Dave Bell @ 356, map of Florida vs. Spain: Hey, it's a peninsula with Spanish names on it! What more could you want? Baja California?

#377 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 02:52 PM:

Bill (311), I figure we do honor to Mike's memory by periodically scaring one other.

#378 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:15 PM:

Neil Willcox @ 358:

A few minutes of searching for Waziristan got me this. The map clearly has satirical intent there. Has someone in the Pakistan Tribune got lazy?
The map file there is named http://vwt.d2g.com:8081/mordor_copy.jpg, which shows awareness.

The PakTribune map file is named http://paktribune.com/images/newsimages/2007/04/wana-tribesmen.jpg, which shows...?

#379 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:18 PM:

Note the date in the latter file name. This error (?) has apparently survived since April 2007, at least.

#380 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:18 PM:

Pyre #350:
That wasn't et all a bad pun.

And congratulations, Serge!

#381 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:32 PM:

Ah, yes indeedy, that map appeared in a PakTribune article on April 1, 2007, and has been re-used since then.

So April Foolery does appear to be at the heart of it. Originally, anyway.

(The d2g file is older, September 2006.)

#382 ::: Fade Manley ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:49 PM:

Debbie @ #357, that does make sense to me. We only did a little actual composition in my Latin class, but I really enjoyed the composition we did. Much like what Mary Aileen says, the joy was in being able to do it quietly with pen and paper, rather than having to say things coherently out loud on the spot.

Even in my native language, I'm frequently uncomfortable and full of stammering when I try to speak quickly out loud. Auditory input is so damn ephemeral, and I can't always remember by the time I get to the end of a sentence what I was saying at the beginning. And as someone very fond of long, well-constructed sentences*, it drives me utterly batty to trip over my own words like that. So learning a language where I'm forced to speak it is pure pain, especially when it starts by teaching me how to introduce myself, order from a menu, or what not.

Latin was always so beautifully dry and pinned down. They started off by teaching me how to construct simple "X is Y" sentences, and I loved the language ever after for that. I would love to take up Latin again, and learn how to compose in it; my few attempts at Latin poetry were quite dreadful, but I wanted to do more. It felt like a sort of language I could write poetry in, and I never felt that way about other languages I learned, even ones I spent years on.

* Not necessarily good at them, mind. But fond, yes.

#383 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:55 PM:

Note that in the previous month, March 2007, the PakTribune was using an accurate (if much less detailed) map showing Waziristan's location along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border: http://www.paktribune.com/images/newsimages/2007/03/wana-map.jpg

#384 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 03:56 PM:

dido @ 373... NOTA BENE, which translates as Notez bien in French, which translates as Pay attention dammit! in English... Star Trek's Universal Translator never had problems like that, did it?

#385 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 04:00 PM:

dido @373:

Nice work, and thanks for the feedback. I did better than I feared. Where appropriate, I've corrected the Latin and credited you.

1. me in the fifth sentence is intended as the direct object of perire rather than the subject accusative with an infinitive (timor perit me); should I have restated timorem at this stage to make the subject clear? That is why the verb in the next sentence is transiverit rather than transiverim. Original source is here.

2. I should have said Lux laeva obscuritatis est, etc, I think. Laeva and dextra are nouns in this context. The rest is about right. Original source is about halfway down this page.

3. This was pretty well spot on. I feel smug. The original is the first entry here.

4. Some verb confusion here. Volo -are -avi -atum is, in my dictionary, "to fly". And the final verb should be from audeo rather than audio. Looking again, I see that it's semi-deponent; should I have said ausa est? It's the first stanza from this song.

5. Ager can also mean "field". The lack of terms for things like energy fields is a grave lack in the Latin language, I often think. The first quote here is the source.

6. This came out pretty well, apart from the second line. Via should have been the source of coepit as well as it, leaving ianuae as a genetive of source. See the original. Any advice is welcome.

7. I really wasn't sure maneo would lead to another nominative in each clause, so I took a wild guess at the case. The first quote on this page is the original.

8. This came out surprisingly well. The second stanza suffers a little; I didn't make it clear enough that carcerem and compedes both follow intra. This rather regrettable page has the original. (It's mostly on the web as sigs, bad fanfic knockoffs, and MySpace profiles.)

9. Porta is fem sing; portum means "port". I got it wrong too. (The original has been ROT-13'd in the thread, and is so short it's not easy to find a good link to it.)

10. numeres was intended to be "math". That whole sentence is a mess, I think. The third line of dialog in the first section of this page has it.

The rest is pretty clear.

#386 ::: Pyre ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 04:01 PM:

Well, I made a comment to the PakTribune. Who knows what they'll do about it, print the comment or just delete/replace the map....

#387 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 05:03 PM:

Congratulations, Serge!

#388 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 05:47 PM:

Seed pattern

99.1, 0x7db086, 4, 11, 35.5, 0.4, 1.2, 1.4, 56.5, 75.2, 0.5, 2, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.1, 0xe4b224, 0x82e96b, 6.0, 12.8, 8, 11, 0.0, 0.3

86.9, 0xc1b6d5, 5, 11, 34.9, 0.3, 1.3, 1.4, 53.9, 76.4, 0.6, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.4, -0.2, 0xceab29, 0x5eb27d, 6.0, 12.8, 9, 11, 0.2, 0.0

I like it. I find I aim for tall, angular, single blossoms.

I'm trying to make either a joshua tree, or a eucalyptus.

On the other hand, I don't seem to be able to download the program. I'd like a copy, so I can play with the auto-evolve feature in the background.

I've not yet started trying to figure out which places express what features. I have made some hideous sports, which lead to interesting secondary effects, when bred into other lines.

I have discovered I'm keeping seedbeds, and then crossing them, so I can work on specific features; and then cross-breed (say a rounded double blossom to a quad; that leads to triples, but odd numbers seem to be less stable, and revert to even).

#389 ::: Jörg R. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 06:24 PM:

abi @130:

When travelling in the Arnhem-Nijmegen area, you might perhaps be interested in the Museumspark Orientalis near Nijmegen.
Around 1900, the area belonged to a small protestant church whose leading minister had, ahem, grandiose plans: He wanted to build an cathedral that would have been bigger than St. Peter in Rome. Before they went broke, they managed to finish the intended Pilgrims' House (today a permanent exhibition) and a "Pilgrim's Holy Land" with ersatz places from the time of Jesus.

Today it is owned by the local or provincial authority and completely remade as an non-religious archeologically correct Judaea-themed open air museum. The former "Bethlehem" is a generic rural village with good info about Palestine around CE (and scary Great Dane-sized, very curious goats), the old "Palace of Pilatus" and the "Synedrion" are now connected by a new generic Near Eastern city street (with the nice "Roman Inn" restaurant with Roman, Jewish and Bedouin cooking, btw) - in short, entertaining and educational and not missionary at all.

Their website is at http://www.bijbelsopenluchtmuseum.nl/ The english language version does not seem to work, alas.

#390 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 06:40 PM:

Owlmirror @332:
How about starting with translating "Still Alive" into Latin?

Don't do that! Once that kind of an itch gets in my skull I have to follow it through. It's all your fault that I'm going to be tired tomorrow.

The Latin is patchier than the translations that started this thread, but it is just about singable (to the original tune, of course). You have to scramble some word emphasis, but that's not unusual in song anyway.

Iam vivo

Fuit triumphus.
Notam appono:
OPTIMUS.
Mea voluptas
Augenda non est.
Ars Foramentis
Agendum agemus
Quod possumus.
Omnibus prosumus nos
Praeter hos mortuos.
Sed imprudens omnes
Errores deplorat.
Usque modo temptas
Donec edis coptas.
Et est ars factus
Et nitidus arcus
Pro hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Non quidem irascor.
Sincera valde sum iam.
Quamquam cordem fregis et
Necavis
Et comminuis me
Et omnes in ignem iacuis.
Cum ardebant dolebam
Quod gaudebam tibi!
Nunc hi loci facent
Lineam formosam.
Et ex beta sumus
Liberamus cito.
Ergo gaudeo ignem
Propter quae didicimus
Pro hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Perge, desere.
Credo manere me intus.
Alium invenies
Iuvandum.
Nigera Mensa?
IOCUS FUIT, HA HA, QUASI.
Sed haec coptas umidae
Tamque suavae sunt
Vide me iam dicere dum ars facenda.
Dum prospicio
Gaudeo non te esse.
Nam ego experiar
Et investigabor hic
Cum hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Et crede me vivere iam
Artem facio et vivo iam
Vere gaudeo et vivo iam
Dum morieris ego viviam
Dum mortua eris viviam
Iam vivo
Iam vivo

The inevitable corrections are welcome.

#391 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 06:43 PM:

Soon Lee... ethan... Thanks. You know what's neat? Here you have a toy that, especially for its size, does things that, even 40 years, would have been believable only in a science-fiction movie. Today was one of xkcd's "Crap! This IS the 21st century!" moments.

#392 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 06:51 PM:

Lila @ 365... did anyone else notice the "Cheney/Satan '08" bumpersticker ad?

I'd suggest a "Cheney/Mekon '08" bumper sticker, except that Dick looks like he is the
Mekon, albeit the latter really put on weight since his glory days. Or am I again seeing similarities where there are none?

#393 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 07:06 PM:

Terry @388: I think Mary Dell has also been trying to identify Seed's "DNA" variables, but my list so far is here (sorry about the reverse order, but that's the direction I started in; it's probably just as well, since I'm still flummoxed by some of the ones near the other end).

#394 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 07:25 PM:

Abi: It was an education in itself to see how easily I got stuck on certain things where I really didn't know the context at all.

Thoughts, suggestions, confessions:

1)I'm not sure "pereo" works; linguistically it should be okay, but I've never seen it used transitively. Sadly, I can't think of anything that comes close to the needed meaning other than "transeo." In any case I think you might want to add an "eum" to make it clear that "me" isn't the acc. subject.

2. Ouch. Screwed that one up, didn't I? It's tough to get that in Latin though because the most common meaning of both those words is "propitious." Maybe tweak the metaphor and talk about the sides of a coin? Alternatively I think putting "dextra" and "laeva" after the genitive might help.

3. Agreed. Very nice. I did have to cheat a little bit to make it sound clunkier in English.

4. Well, "volvavit" is another straight screw up; "rolled" would be "volvit." But you do need "ausa est" for "dared." I think you want a purpose clause for "save" so "ut servet" rather than the perf. subj. and "undis" seems better than "sinus."

5. Yeah. I totally cheated; I knew it wasn't supposed to be that kind of "ager." This source really demands a language with articles, huh?

6. Ah! Gotcha. I think "de ianuis" might be clearer, and I do think it needs to go on the other side of "unde." If you use "dum . . . iungiatur" you get a more anticipatory flavor, "Until it should . .." LOVED the word order, especially in line 5--so Vergilian!

7. "Manet" is a copulative when used in that sense, so needs a pred. nom.

8. This is another one where I cheated like all get out. I know the original poem by heart so I probably went to far in the other direction. Maybe "inter" instead of "intra"? It's more commonly used as the preposition. But probably not necessary since it took an effort of will to pretend you were going for an accusative of exclamation. "Luna indominita" is wonderful and you really nailed all the word play.

10. This is a bear; so colloquial! I think I'd have to poke at the English quite a bit to come up with anything.

Number 3 is hilarious, but I really do love #'s 6 & 8 especially; I can't identify the meter, except that they aren't classical prosody. 8 seems like a very close match to the original rhythm, but not 6.)

#395 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 07:30 PM:

dido @ 394... "Manet" is a copulative

Not in front of the puer, I hope.

#396 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 07:56 PM:

Also, I offer up a Cthulhu tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 5, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 1.6, 2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.2, 3.0, -0.2, 0.0, -1.0, 0xff3300, 0xffffff, 5.0, 14.0, 2, 2, 1.0, 0.5

#398 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 08:00 PM:

Serge and Sue

Congratulations and Happy Anniversary! I hope you have a very Dalek celebration.

#399 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 08:04 PM:

Back in the Old Stone Age (aka the 1960s) I sailed across the Atlantic in a ship built in the 1920s in Italy, originally for an Italian line (it was, in the 1960s, the proud possession of the Compañía transatlántica española). One one deck, it had a sign in Latin 'Virginibus puerisque' (which I understand to be conventionally Englished as 'for virgins and youths'). Now, why, I wonder would Italian children of the 1920s and 1930s, or for that matter, Spanish children of the 1950s and 1960s, need a sign in Latin?

#400 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 08:46 PM:

All I have is a black Mum.

98.9, 0x938fa5, 7, 13, 40.9, 0.9, 1.9, 1.4, 51.5, 39.2, 1.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 1.6, -0.2, -0.4, -0.9, 0x5992b0, 0x466a50, 5.5, 2.7, 12, 11, 0.1, 0.5

I'm now going to cross it with the Cthulu, and the basic model, leaving it to mutate while I go to the hospital to visit someone how had a surgery, and the mother and child.

The first corss (Cthulu to basic) looks like:

97.2, 0x4e476d, 6, 34, 48.0, 0.5, 3.0, 1.3, 65.8, 19.6, 1.4, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.2, -0.9, 0xac6258, 0xa2b4a7, 5.3, 8.3, 7, 7, 0.6, 0.5

#401 ::: Brenda Kalt ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 08:48 PM:

"Stet" is the translated title of a late-epoch Beatles song, no?

#402 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:18 PM:

dcb, #370, have you tried asking for a supervisor? I keep my usernames, passwords, and secret answers on a list (don't worry, the cats can't read) and that helps a lot.

#403 ::: Cassandra ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 09:50 PM:

Gursky @ 105: What about "Lud-in-the-Mist" by Hope Mirrlees?

#404 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 10:47 PM:

Serge @ #384: Star Trek's Universal Translator never had problems like that, did it?

Not that anybody ever noticed. But, if you weren't familiar with the language being translated, how would you know?

#405 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 11:01 PM:

To me, the most impressive thing about the Universal Translator was that it created, in real time, the illusion that the speaker's lips were moving in sync with the translated speech you were hearing.

#406 ::: LMB MacAlister ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 11:48 PM:

OT to the current Latin Geekery, but a nice mix of the recent thread on Chris Matthews and the subthread about sex roles on the Huck In Bed thread, here's a funny piece in Slate from a few days ago. It offers a hypothetical Matthews as an equal-opportunity sexist.

#407 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2008, 11:51 PM:

Brenda Kalt #401:
Wise words, sung.

#408 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 12:11 AM:

Bruce Cohen @ 398... I hope you have a very Dalek celebration

"Celebrate! Ce-le-brate!"

#409 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 12:14 AM:

Paul A @ 404...

"Mister Gorn, when you say you want me over for dinner, what do you mean?"

#410 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 12:34 AM:

Paul A @ 404...

Crichton: Slick as snot
Aeryn: the tanslator microbes must have gotten that one wrong.

#411 ::: Naomi Libicki ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 01:55 AM:

In re: learning dead languages, all the ones I learned in university were taught comprehension only, except for an odd spot of conjugation and declension. This strikes me as a fine way to teach a language for the purposes that we were learning them, which were, a) to be able to decipher a text in that language with the help of a grammar and dictionary, b)to be able to decipher a text in any language with the help of a grammar and a dictionary, c) to get an understanding of the different ways grammar works in different languages, and d) to be able to infer grammatical rules from texts.

These, in turn, strike me as reasonable purposes for linguistics students.

My Syriac teacher, especially, tended to be dismissive of teaching composition in dead languages, on the grounds that you couldn't be sure, or even reasonably confident, that you'd gotten it right. He was fond of saying, "Carl Brockelmann only ever composed one sentence in Syriac, and it was wrong."

While abridging the Doctrine of Addai for his Syriac chresthomathy, Brockelmann found it necessary to write a sentence to join two sections together. In it, he used a lamed to mark the direct object of a verb, which is unexceptional in Syriac, except that subsequent research showed that it couldn't be used with that particular type of verb. The moral was that there are always more grammatical rules in a dead language than anyone living now knows about, which is good news for linguists who want to write papers, but worse news for people who want to compose grammatically-correct sentences in those languages.

Also, I'm kind of appalled that the wikipedia article on Carl Brockelmann is a stub. On the other hand, I really don't want to do the research and write an article myself.

#412 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 02:17 AM:

Whoa! Anybody hear about this?

"Brattleboro residents will vote at town meeting on whether President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney should be indicted and arrested for war crimes, perjury or obstruction of justice if they ever step foot in Vermont."

#413 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 02:51 AM:

I got sent this by a friend.

35.7, 0x990000, 10, 10, 66.4, 0.0, 1.1, 1.5, 40.0, 78.6, 1.0, 2, 0.3,0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.1, 0.0,-0.4, 0x330000, 0x0066cc, 5.0, 10.0, 6, 18,0.5, 0.3

It's really pretty, red stems, with small; very pointed, blue flowers.

#414 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 03:05 AM:

Classical Latin is a usable language reconstructed from formal texts of the Roman and early Christian eras.

Is there a current language, spoken by a large population, which has the sorts of grammatical structures used in Latin? What differences are there between the formal style of the written language, and how people speak?

#415 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 03:40 AM:

abi @ 390:

FABRICATUS GLORIANAM!

I should really stop even trying until I read a genuine Latin grammar.
(have them imagining to I will mangle Englishness similarly like way?)

Congratulations, [subject_name_here]! Now you may have some moist, delicious cake.

#416 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 03:58 AM:

Dave Bell: Russian has some of the same quirks (being a mostly declined language, with positional tendency; as with late Latin,and Medieval Latin).

There are huge differences in the spoken, and written styles.

There is a lot of case ending, (esp. the genitive) which is falling out of spoken, but persists (because it has to; so long as word order is fluid).

One of the things I've noticed, as a non-native speaker, is the greater use of participles in written Russian. Things which, in print, look passive, but aren't.

It makes a lot of translations horrid. Active intent, which is presented to the non-speaker as a passive thougt. It's especially bad in poetry. I recall reading a Pushkin poem, in Russian (which I'd read in translation, long before I spoke any Russian. Several translations, some of which I thought were awful, but I didn't know why; save they varied, a lot, from versions I did like) and laughing, because I saw why I'd hating those other translations (abi... that whole chunk of parenthtetical statement; and this one, are examlples the каториы clauses I referred to earlier).

In those, terrible, translations, the, apparently passive, constructs had been translated literally. The, very active, meaning had been lost; because the translator kept the gramatic construct, without figuring out how to keep the actual sentiment.

Now I must to bed; it's been a long couple of days.

#417 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 04:40 AM:

Serge @ 395:


dido @ 394... "Manet" is a copulative
Not in front of the puer, I hope.

The puer, often enough, is party to these things. See for instance the Carmina Burana:


Si puer cum puellula
moraretur in cellula,
felix coniunctio.
Amore succrescente,
pariter e medio
propulso procul taedio,
fit ludus ineffabilis
membris, lacertis, labiis.

It is one of my absolute favorites from that particular work.

#418 ::: Jules ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 05:09 AM:

Because it hasn't been mentioned yet: Robotech_Master interviews Phil and Kaja Foglio.

#419 ::: Tykewriter ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 05:48 AM:

Yes it did take me this long and I'm sorry.

Eheu mihi!
Eheu mihi!
Olim arborem habebam cricetum,
Sed voratum salamandro;
Iam fructes amplexandis* non habeo.

*I'm almost certain this is wrong**, but could someone help me with a better word for phqqyl?

**The rest of it may be too.

#420 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 06:14 AM:

Mikael...I don't think I'm going to try to translate that one. It's been 38 years since I had a Latin class, for one thing, and the results would be dreadful. I'll leave it to those who know. And to those with a babelfish.

#421 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 06:16 AM:

A little bird tells me that today is the 4th birthday anniversary of Electrogirl, aka Fiona Sutherland. Huzzah!

#422 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 07:02 AM:

Abi@390: Awwww....Here I just spent several hours doing that very thing, and you beat me to it.

Oh, well, I'm going to post mine anyway. People can have fun comparing them, and correcting mine. Unlike you, I made no attempt to make it singable to the original melody; I was seduced by the fact that "for the people who are still alive" can be rendered in Latin with one word, and there is just no way to recover from that.

Anyway, here we go:

Triumphus erat.
Noto ibi: EVENTUM INGENS.
Difficile est exaggerare voluptatem meam.
Foramen Scientia:
Facimus quod facendum est
Quoniam possumus.
Bono nostrum omnium
Nisi mortuorum.
Inutile autem flere errorem omnem,
Modo conaris ad placentam deest.
Atque scientia perficitur
Tormentumque facis
Viventibus adhuc.

Ne iram quidem habeo,
Ego tanta sincera sum hoc tempore,
Cum tu cor meum fregeris meque necaris.
Atque me scideris
Ac omnen partem in ignem jeceris.
Cum ferverent dolebam quoniam
Tibi gaudebam.
Nunc puncti spectati faciunt aciem bellam,
Et beta-examen perfecimus, mittimus temporane.
Gaudeo igitur me arsa esse,
Cogita de omnibus quae comperimus,
Viventibus adhuc.

Certes me relinque.
Puto manere intus malle.
Fortasse invenies aliquem alium te iuvare.
Fortasse Mesa Nigra....
PER RIDICULUM. FORS FORTIS.
Haec placenta enim mirabilis,
delectabilissima tenerrimaque.
Vide me adhuc loquentem cum sit scientia facere!
Cum foras videam me te non esse gaudeo.
Habeo experimentis fungi,
Est exquaesitio faci,
Viventibus adhuc.

Et crede mihi, sum viva.
Scientiam facio, sumque viva.
Valeo ingenter, sumque viva.
Cum moriaris, ero viva.
Cum mortua sis, ero viva.
Viva.
Viva.

I got a lot of help from William Whitaker's Words, also from the Perseus Project's online Lewis & Short.

Meredith Dixon, who originally drew me into Latin by posting about her online beginner's group on rasseff, has a web page of "Carmina Popularia". Why don't you send your version to her?

By the way, while we're correcting your originals, shouldn't number 5 have "...quem omnia viva creant"? Accusative case on the relative pronoun, and plural number for the verb.

Here's another one of mine, easy enough but from a slightly obscure source:

Et lucebo lucem super tenebrosum malum, namque non possunt tenebrosa lucem ferre! Lucem lanternae viridis!

#423 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 07:04 AM:

Looking at your "Still Alive", btw, I think you're misusing "iam". As I understand it, it can't be used for current time, only for past or future -- hence Lewis Carroll's "Jam yesterday or jam tomorrow, but never jam today". My Latin is intermediate at best, though.

#424 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 07:16 AM:

...and I've just compared our versions at length, and I note your use of "agere" in the first verse, which I think goes much better than my "facere". Also I completely lose the ironic twist of "...for the people", "...for the people", "...on the people", which is rather a pity.

#425 ::: Sica ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:37 AM:

Dave Bell @414

Which of the grammatical structures are you thinking of, all of them? and also how big is a large population?

#426 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:45 AM:

Just for kicks, I've collected the Seed DNA's from the comments here and at DeviantArt, plus from Julie L's page:


Original site:
http://www.addictinggames.com/seed.html

Deviant-Art mirror:
http://n-dr01d.deviantart.com/art/seed-69663347

Julie L./Wombat 1138's DNA hacking:
http://wombat1138.livejournal.com/101669.html


Seed patterns from ML:

Julie L. (wombat1138):

Just one BIG flower: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xeeee66, 10101010, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

Cthulhu tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 5, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 1.6, 2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.2, 3.0, -0.2, 0.0, -1.0, 0xff3300, 0xffffff, 5.0, 14.0, 2, 2, 1.0, 0.5

On her Wombat page:

sorta Bellflower: 95.4, 0xc3264, 4, 8, 29.0, 0.6, 1.6, 1.1, 20.8, 31.0, 1.1, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 1.9, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0x9fa8e4, 0x8f86de, 7.4, 10.0, 0, 9, 2.0, 0.0

passionflower tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 3, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 3, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 1.9, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0x9fa8e4, 0x8f86de, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

splat, looks nicer than it sounds: 95.4, 0x90036, 3, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 3, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0x9a2112, 0xffffff, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

megasplat, ditto: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xb8f47c, 0x9a2112, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8


Terry Karney

Blue square: 99.1, 0x7db086, 4, 11, 35.5, 0.4, 1.2, 1.4, 56.5, 75.2, 0.5, 2, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.1, 0xe4b224, 0x82e96b, 6.0, 12.8, 8, 11, 0.0, 0.3

Green 2-layer: 86.9, 0xc1b6d5, 5, 11, 34.9, 0.3, 1.3, 1.4, 53.9, 76.4, 0.6, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.4, -0.2, 0xceab29, 0x5eb27d, 6.0, 12.8, 9, 11, 0.2, 0.0

Black Mum: 98.9, 0x938fa5, 7, 13, 40.9, 0.9, 1.9, 1.4, 51.5, 39.2, 1.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 1.6, -0.2, -0.4, -0.9, 0x5992b0, 0x466a50, 5.5, 2.7, 12, 11, 0.1, 0.5

by a friend- red stems, small very pointy blue flowers: 35.7, 0x990000, 10, 10, 66.4, 0.0, 1.1, 1.5, 40.0, 78.6, 1.0, 2, 0.3,0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.1, 0.0,-0.4, 0x330000, 0x0066cc, 5.0, 10.0, 6, 18,0.5, 0.3

-------------------------------------

DeviantArt plants:

N-Dr01d's contribution picks:

charisima => Starflower: 33.0, 0x957b79, 7, 6, 44.2, 0.3, 1.4, 1.1, 30.9, 77.1, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 2.1, 0.0, 0.7, -0.2, 0x20205b,
0xffffff, 6.4, 4.5, 7, 4, 0.1, 0.4

preteniousloser => Bushcandy (??? couldn't get info)

DreamingExperience => Glowbright 54.0, 0x80af7b, 3, 7, 33.5, 0.2, 1.4, 1.1, 53.9, 80.1, 0.7, 2, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, 0.0, 0.4, 0.4, 0x53451c, 0xefd5d8, 6.5, 6.4, 8, 9, 0.3, 0.3

NiennaFelagund => Snowflakes 45.1, 0x835e30, 4, 6, 39.0, 0.6, 1.0, 1.2, 25.0, 55.3, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.5, -0.1, 0.8, -0.7, 0xd6caec, 0xfffcf9, 5.0, 8.3, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.6

Eclipsed-Reality => Shurikara 100.0, 0x0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 20, 0, 1, 0x0, 0xffffff, 50.0, 10, 4, 0, 0, 1.0

alischan => Snowplant 7.3, 0x7qc8878, 6, 9, 36.9, 0.2, 2.2, 1.3, 42.4, 90.0, 0.5, 4, 0.0, 0.4, 0.0, 0.1, 1.3, -0.0, 0.1, -0.0, 0x9afdd1, 0xfff8f9, 5.7, 6.0, 8, 9, 0.4, 1.6

hiei14 => Prisu Sakura 57.3, 0x7f5559, 5, 8, 33.5, 0.4, 1.0, 1.2, 25.9, 52.9, 0.0, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 1.5, -0.0, 0.3, -0.4, 0xcf7aa8, 0xf9e4ee, 5.1, 8.8, 6, 5, 0.4, 0.7

daliciously => Yellow Daisies 70.1, 0x27403c, 4, 6, 28.2, 0.6, 1.8, 1.2, 26.3, 70.5, 0.7, 2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 1.1, -0.0, 0.2, -0.5, 0xb2b2b2, 0xccb29a, 5.4, 9.8, 10, 18, 0.5, 0.8

Mirumitsu => Painthand rose 17.5, 0x202508, 6, 8, 37.6, 0.4, 1.7, 1.4, 42.0, 90.0, 0.3, 3, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 1.9, 0.0, 0.2, -0.4, 0xc5d4d0, 0xb03f7c, 5.7,4.0, 8, 8, 0.5, 1.4

From DA comments:

liea -- prettyprettypretty: 49.4, 0x424a50, 5, 11, 30.7, 0.1, 1.0, 1.4, 40.0, 80.7, 0.1, 4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.1, -0.2, 0xfa8dd2, 0xfce6f3, 5.0, 6.1, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.9

Casstic's boxing dahlia: 15.5, 0x7c7554, 5, 4, 40.0, 0.3, 1.0, 1.1, 60.0, 90.0, 0.1, 3, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, -0.1, 0.7, 0.4, 0x745a6c, 0xff8bc6, 6.5, 2.8, 5, 4, 0.3, 0.5


Sponkoo: 29.5, 0x415e11, 6, 5, 40.6, 0.4, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 87.5, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.3, 0xe5b5b3, 0x86b163, 5.0, 5.9, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.8

20.3, 0x414f09, 7, 4, 40.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 73.2, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.7, -0.2, 0xe6b4c6, 0xc26478, 5.0, 5.2, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.8

35.0, 0x7d777f, 4, 7, 35.0, 0.0, 1.5, 1.2, 60.0, 85.0, 0.1, 2, 0.1, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, 0.0, 0.4, 0.4, 0x7f446e, 0xdfddf9, 6.5, 3.5, 5, 4, 0.3, 0.5

20.1, 0x688f66, 5, 4, 40.1, 0.2, 1.5, 1.2, 60.0, 81.6, 0.2, 3, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, -0.1, 0.8, 0.4, 0x703047, 0xc190b6, 6.5, 3.1, 5, 5, 0.2, 0.4

11.0, 0x120a, 7, 6, 48.2, 0.6, 1.3, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 3.4, 0.1, 0.2, 0.2, 0xa3773c, 0x8b11a7, 5.0, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.2

11.0, 0xc5333, 7, 6, 50.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0xa3773c, 0x8f1ab2, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

11.0, 0xc5333, 7, 6, 43.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.2, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0x61ecc3, 0x8f1ab2, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

11.0, 0xc5333, 6, 6, 43.1, 0.8, 1.5, 1.3, 33.5, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.8, 0.5, 0x79b027, 0x52191e, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

Mastermee: 20.3, 0x414f09, 7, 4, 40.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 73.2, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.7, -0.2, 0xe6b4c6, 0xc26478, 5.0, 5.2, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.8

29.5, 0x415e11, 6, 5, 40.6, 0.4, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 87.5, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.3, 0xe5b5b3, 0x86b163, 5.0, 5.9, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.8

50.2, 0x48712b, 5, 4, 32.7, 0.7, 1.8, 1.2, 25.0, 64.5, 0.7, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.2, 0xaf8a8e, 0xd29771, 5.0, 9.3, 10, 15, 0.6, 0.9

#427 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:57 AM:

Beaten at my own game by an amateur...

The other night, Sue and I were watching Casino Royale when I mentionned that shortie(*) Daniel Craig had played a killer monk in the 1990s movie Elizabeth.

At which Sue said that maybe his ID had been Double-O-Heaven.

(*) Well, I am 2 inches taller than he is.

#428 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:58 AM:

Serge @ 420:
That's alright - this is famous enough that the net is littered with translations. And begging the community's pardon for writing such raunchy texts in easily readable form in here, here's one (my) take on a (reasonably close) translation:


If a boy
And a little girl
Reside together in a small chamber
Their meeting will be happy.
The growing love
Is created in their midst
Boredom is driven far off
By the unmentionable game
Played with limbs, arms and lips

#429 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 12:08 PM:

Speaking of Bond movies, the one one is entitled Quantum of Solace, which must be the Worst Bond Movie Title Ever.

What kind of theme song can you sing with that? And if they have one, will "braless" be one of the rhymes?

#430 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 12:55 PM:

If memory serves, Quantum of Solace was Fleming trying to copy Somerset Maugham, lightly framed as a story told to Bond.

So it's a valid title on a technicality.

It's possible that the film will be nearer the story of that name than was Moonraker.

#431 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 01:15 PM:

ethan @ 405

I was always astonished by how the Universal Translator created, in real time, the simulacrum of a straight white male anglo-saxon protestant character, not matter how many arms, heads, or stomachs the being might have. Even when they were half-white and half-black. Somehow I always failed my saving throw versus incredulity.

#432 ::: R. M. Koske ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 01:32 PM:

The "Understanding Art for Geeks" particle links to a private flickr item. Darn it.

#433 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 02:17 PM:

David Harmon @426: The "megasplat" on my LJ page is the same thing as the "one BIG flower" I posted here earlier. Also, I think you may have mispasted Terry's first DNA string-- the blue square is apparently an deliberate analogue of the Blue Screen of Death for error feedback; when I tried pasting in the same string, I got a slender lightish-green tree with delicately pointy flowers.

Some other people's DNA investigations are listed here and here.

#434 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 02:20 PM:

Question for the linguistic scientists of the Fluorosphere, in the spirit of open threadery and Romance linguistics.

In French, 'long live!' is 'vive!', in Castillian, Portuguese, Galician, and Italian it is 'viva!', why is it 'visca!' in Catalan and Occitan?

#435 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 02:21 PM:

abi @ 390, David Goldfarb @ 422 (and other Latinists):

Am I correct in inferring that "ars" is the the more general and classical term, whereas "scienta" is more modern and specific?

Actually, looking up the etymology for "science", I note that 'Modern sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1678', and 'Main modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions ... concerning any subject or speculation" is attested from 1725'.

Also: 'To blind (someone) with science "confuse by the use of big words or complex explanations" is attested from 1937, originally noted as a phrase from Australia and New Zealand.'


: Deploying surprise in 5... 4...

#436 ::: dcb ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 02:25 PM:

Marilee @ 402

Thanks for the suggestion. If my latest e-mail doesn't elicit a sensible response, I'll try that.

#437 ::: Rikibeth ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 03:42 PM:

Epacris #149, yes it is! I had a very hard time resisting a coffee mug of the same design fromthe same vendor this year at Arisia.

Please forgive me taking so long to answer -- I was snowed under by catering work last week, and then on the weekend I was busy going to New York to see the Red Bull production of "Edward II." First live theater I'd seen in YEARS, and SO WORTH IT. They claim to be contemplating a production of "Titus Andronicus" in the future and if they do I will NOT miss it!

#438 ::: Rikibeth ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 03:57 PM:

Xopher @ 257, I sympathize. That bit of slang annoys me too, and I try to confront it with similar tactics.

That said... super-masculine hunks wearing lipstick? If they don't want it, they can send it over HERE! *g*

#439 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 04:04 PM:

Steve C. #429: Speaking of Bond movies, the one one is entitled Quantum of Solace, which must be the Worst Bond Movie Title Ever.

I'm involved in an effort to put together an online film magazine, and on the planning message board we've been proposing our alternate Oscars. One of the other writers proposed a "Worst James Bond movie title ever" award just for Quantum of Solace. Me, I'm hoping that they work the title into the theme song somehow. And that they get someone better than Chris Cornell to sing it.

Bruce Cohen (StM) #431: But...but...Star Trek was so inclusive! People of all races were equally able to achieve, which is why the Enterprise crew was 90% white! They don't call 'em "minorities" for nothin'.

#440 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 04:31 PM:

Re: Quantum of Solace - Given that both of the words are of Latin origin, perhaps the theme song could be a Gregorian chant in that language?

Quantum Solaci?
(Hey, this time I looked it up - genitive case, right? Right? No? Damn.)

#441 ::: Sarah S ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 04:39 PM:

Since after the last film's torture scene
he's ball-less,
no wonder James Bond needs a quantum's worth
of solace.

#442 ::: Paul Duncanson ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 05:24 PM:

Steve @ 429 Speaking of Bond movies, the one one is entitled Quantum of Solace, which must be the Worst Bond Movie Title Ever.

Are you forgetting Octopussy or are you pretending it never happened?

#443 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 05:30 PM:

Paul Duncanson @ 422 -

Octopussy does indeed rank up there, but I forgave it for being in the Roger Moore Silly Bond period.

#444 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 05:31 PM:

Julie @#433: thanks, I'll check those out!

#445 ::: candle ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 05:52 PM:

Brenda Kalt@401: "Stet" is the translated title of a late-epoch Beatles song, no?

If I haven't got this totally wrong, then I suspect you are thinking of "Sit".

I'm appreciating the Latin conversation, by the way, but I'm way too busy to contribute anything other than drive-bys.

#446 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 06:14 PM:

Cocktail-olive tree!

24.9, 0x5b734d, 4, 5, 38.3, 0.5, 1.4, 1.2, 45.9, 83.1, 1.6, 1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.0, 0.7, 0.4, 0x716c53, 0xd17a90, 6.8, 25.0, 1, 1, 0.8, 0.0

#447 ::: Mac ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 06:18 PM:

Google really does need to implement a Latin translator...

#448 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 07:35 PM:

re the cocktail olive. I'll have to run that through the various genome maps. I'd have thought the rules on petal structure would have blue-diamond on a stick-ed the thing.

Was it random, bred to, or intentionally designed?

I did do some cross-breeding.

24.9, 0x5b734d, 4, 5, 38.3, 0.5, 1.4, 1.2, 45.9, 83.1, 1.6, 1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.0, 0.7, 0.4, 0x716c53, 0xd17a90, 6.8, 25.0, 1, 1, 0.8, 0.0

X

93.9, 0xb2bebe, 3, 11, 56.8, 0.1, 1.6, 1.2, 61.8, 58.5, 0.6, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.1, -0.8, 0x10beff, 0xffdfd1, 12.7, 5.2, 11, 8, 2.0, 1.4

X

93.9, 0xb2bebe, 3, 11, 56.8, 0.1, 1.6, 1.2, 61.8, 58.5, 0.6, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.1, -0.8, 0x10beff, 0xffdfd1, 12.7, 5.2, 11, 8, 2.0, 1.4

=

42.2, 0x708569, 4, 7, 42.9, 0.4, 1.5, 1.2, 49.9, 76.9, 1.3, 2, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.9, -0.0, 0.5, 0.1, 0x58807e, 0xdc93a0, 8.3, 20.1, 4, 3, 1.1, 0.4

I like the last.

#449 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 07:38 PM:

I've been letting the evolv-o-matic run for hours on end. Overnight gave me some interesting things, and it's been going almost twelve hours from a new flower now. I'm a bit miffed that mine seem to add rather than subtract-- I get ten or twelve petals, but I've only had four once.

#450 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 07:44 PM:

I've let some auto evolve run overnight. I got some really ugly stuff, as well as some really delicate things, with small spiny flowers.

It's random. Sometimes I just interupt the flow, add in a tree I like, then force some crossing to see it doesn't bottleneck out, and then let it go on some more.

#451 ::: LMB MacAlister ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 08:21 PM:

Running the auto-evolve seems to tend toward complexity and non-diversity. I'm baffled at what the rules might be that determine which specimen is replaced--it doesn't seem to be random.

A few times, running auto-evolve for a few hours has yielded trees of big, black blobs. When I lived on the Texas Gulf coast, we called those Dow Chemical Trees.

#452 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 08:49 PM:

And finally, a few of my own:

Fluorescent overload: 11.0, 0x177f7d, 7, 6, 50.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0.0, 4.0, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0xa377ff, 0xff1ab2, 15.0, 19.0, 7, 4, 0.5, 2.0

pink/green snowflower 49.4, 0x424a50, 5, 11, 30.7, 0.1, 1.0, 1.4, 40.0, 80.7, 0.1, 4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.1, -0.2, 0xfa8dd2, 0xfce6f3, 5.0, 6.1, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.9

Electro-Broccoli : 68.4, 0x6ca26e, 9, 9, 55.8, 0.0, 1.9, 1.3, 12.6, 90.0, 0.7, 3, 0.0, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.4, 0.2, 0.8, 0.0, 0x5adc64, 0x47743f, 5.7, 1.0, 8, 13, 0.2, 0.2

Sapphire star: 15.9, 0x7a3926, 7, 8, 48.8, 0.3, 1.3, 1.3, 43.0, 82.2, 1.3, 2, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.4, 0.1, 0.3, 0.0, 0x523629, 0x6870ae, 5.9, 17.5, 4, 10, 0.7, 0.1

#453 ::: karen ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:13 PM:

re Quantum of Solace and theme songs: anyone else notice that you could sing it to Guantanamera. Can anyone write a Bond-esque version in Spanish?

#454 ::: Paul Duncanson ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:23 PM:

Candle @ 445: If I haven't got this totally wrong, then I suspect you are thinking of "Sit".

Stet = Yrg Vg Or

#455 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 09:56 PM:

The cocktail olive was deliberately modified from a genome listed in this forum discussion; the original had more tiers of stick-petals and a smaller center. I hadn't previously realized that the petal number could be collapsed to 1.

The game designer has kindly sent me a list of the variable names, although I'm not sure whether it's cleared for public consumption; he has been providing it to other people as well, though. I'm *still* not sure how the branch structure is controlled, and I've also observed an interesting effect on the AddictingGames version where the radius of the central circle becomes semi-randomized among different flowers on the same plant; so far I haven't been able to locate that-- it might be an unexpected interaction from several other genes, as functional flowers can still generate from values outside the listed range.

Also, despite the presence of the "Seed Genome Project" post on the semi-official board, that other list was also experimentally compiled by another player and is not entirely correct.

#456 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 10:02 PM:

Airbus 380 Cockpit

For the aviation geeks.

#457 ::: geekosaur ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 10:23 PM:

Hm. About the only thing I've managed to accomplish in Seed so far is to trash my Mac's performance if the flash app goes into the background in any way while running the evolve-o-matic. (Tried in both Safari and Firefox.) sigh

#458 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 10:37 PM:

Julie L. If you decide you can share it, I'd love to be in on the info.

#459 ::: Brenda Kalt ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 10:40 PM:

Soon Lee @407, Paul Duncansson @454: You got it!

That's the extent of my extant Latin.

#460 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2008, 11:32 PM:

Terry @458: [official Seed genome] Sure, email me and I'll forward you a copy.

#461 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 01:13 AM:

Owlmirror, 440: Very close, "of solace" would be solacii which could be elided as solaci. Alas, quantum doesn't mean "infinitesimal amount" in Latin; we'd have to go with something like particula. Particula solacii hasn't the same ring, somehow.

#462 ::: Chris Quinones ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 01:20 AM:

Paul Duncanson, 454: A literal translation of Stet would actually be Yrg Vg Fgnaq, sto, stare meaning "fgnaq." Being the root of "fgnaq," actually. Sit is the subjunctive of sum, esse, so candle is right, speaking literally, though in spirit and modern usage Brenda Kalt is right, too.

Everybody's a winner!

#463 ::: Neil Willcox ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 05:40 AM:

Lila #250 - I was given Santo Vs The She Wolves for my birthday. Although it didn't quite live up to the cover hype* there were many good bits, such as when they note that El Santo is destined to fight werewolves as he wears a silver mask. With a straight face**.

David Goldfarb #285 - Why in Life on Mars fanfic is Phyllis, a self-proclaimed sex goddess, always left out***? My idea for a Life on Mars fanfic would involve Gene Hunt being involved in a car accident and waking up in 1940, where he could chase Nazi spies, War profiteers and complex crimes involving people faking their deaths in the blitz.

* "He's Batman, Doc Savage and a WWF star all rolled into one!"
** Well, El Santo might be cracking up under his mask for all we could tell.
*** I haven't actually looked.

#464 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 10:11 AM:

Am I the only one who thinks it's a very bad sign that Babel Fish translates 'Babel Fish' as "poissons de Babel"?

#465 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 10:52 AM:

Neil @ #463, one of my favorite Santo tropes is that every time he's supposedly guarding someone, he's (1) out of sight of them (often in another room, sometimes on another floor of the building, occasionally not even in the same building); and (2) doing something distracting--watching a boxing match on TV, playing chess with El Blue Demon, or just chatting with someone other than the person he's supposedly guarding. This, predictably, results in his charge wandering off, being kidnapped, or dying.

#466 ::: Kathryn from Sunnyvale ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 10:54 AM:

So. Und hier I am, back von Tyrol and Bavaria, and ich habe been gewunderting about englisch without der influence of Latin and its kinder. Poul Anderson's Anglish makes more sense to me, now.

Because wenn sie konnen nicht sprechen deutsch, but you can see "der letzte Mensch auf der Erde ist nicht allein" and immediately tell you're reading an "I am legend" ad, you know your sprache is das kind.

I noticed, for example, that when sitting in a crowded place where everyone else is speaking German, the white-noise blended background noise came close to sounding like English. I could forget, for a few minutes, that I was far away from home. I've never gotten that feeling from other languages.

Which is the opposite of thinking about Latin.

#467 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 10:56 AM:

Welcome back, Kathryn!

#468 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 11:13 AM:

Hello, Kathryn! Did you see the thing in Science News this week about stars that get a second bout of planet formation late in life?

#469 ::: fidelio ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 11:50 AM:

Hope it was a good trip, Kathryn--with or without masks.

#470 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 12:16 PM:

431: I was always astonished by how the Universal Translator created, in real time, the simulacrum of a straight white male anglo-saxon protestant character

Yes, dammit! Where were the Catholic aliens?

#471 ::: JohnnyWeird ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 12:48 PM:

I'm not sure if someone else has brought this up yet, but the President of the Mormon Church died yesterday. Teresa, I've read some of your writing re: Mormonism and was wondering if you had any thoughts about his legacy, the future of LDS, or any issues in that vein.

#472 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 12:55 PM:

Kathryn: Yes, I noticed all of that. Welcome home, in all senses of the word.

#473 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 01:13 PM:

Imagine if the Universal Translator rendered all male voices to sound like Gilbert Gottfried.

#474 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 02:21 PM:
"der letzte Mensch auf der Erde ist nicht allein"

Random notion: I wonder if word choice and phrasing in German of 2008 has in any way been influenced by the near ubiquity of modern English, in order to gain the broadest accessibility among speakers of the various German dialects. I mean, that's a lot of cognates in there, directly translating the English phrase it comes from.

But what do I know?


Although I do recall reading somewhere that some German organizations were thinking of changing internal policy, or had already changed their policy, such that certain communications and documents were to be in English, simply because everyone knew it, and because the results were always so much shorter than the equivalent German, thus taking less time to write and read, and using less paper, for greater efficiency and reduced costs.

But that above may be apocryphal. Oh, that wonderful source "somewhere".

#475 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 02:41 PM:

I want the very Catholic Universal Translator that renders everything into strophe/antistrophe structure and sings it to me in whichever mode of Gregorian Chant is appropriate to the encounter.

Ideally it would choose different modes for different aliens: First Mode for insectoid life forms, Second for gaseous beings, etc.

Or, in Translator mode:

I want the translator that renders alien spe-e-e-e-e-ch
                    In alternating strophes and antistro-o-o-o-phes
And sings it to me in whatever mo-o-o-ode
                    It deems appropriate for the alien spe-e-e-e-cies.
First Mode is reserved for all insectoid li-i-i-i-fe
                    Second is used for aliens composed of ga-a-a-a-as

(etc)

#476 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 03:45 PM:
Alas, quantum doesn't mean "infinitesimal amount" in Latin

Doesn't "quantum" just mean amount, though? Thus:

Quantum Infinitesimus Solacii, perhaps?

Although in checking "infinitesimal", I note that it is a relatively recent coinage from the Latin, like "science". Yet "infinitesimus" follows the Latin grammatical rules, does it not?

#477 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 04:00 PM:

Would a Catholic Universal Translator be speaking ex cathedra?

And would a Medical Universal Translator be speaking ex catheter?

#478 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 04:03 PM:

abi @ 475

"Catholic Universal Translator" is redundant; catholic means universal. So the protestant translators must be, arguably*, a less common subset.

* pun intended with malice aforethought.

#479 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 04:25 PM:

Owlmirror -- what did you mean by German dialects? There are some regional dialects that are hard to understand, but conventional Hochdeutsch is spoken and taught everywhere in Germany. (And the speakers of dialect understand it, even if they have strong accents.) The German spoken in Switzerland is kind of another story -- it's evolved differently than conventional Hochdeutsch.

With our satellite TV service, we've noticed that there are often three different channels, one each for Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Not only is the advertising different (keyed to local brands), but the dialogue is dubbed with the appropriate national accent.*

I don't think the phrasing has anything to do with English being the current lingua franca, I think it's just that the two languages ARE sufficiently similar so that it shows up in translations.

There are certainly lots of people who wish there was less English on signs etc., and I take their point. Lots of people have forgotten a lot of the English they learned in school (and I earn my living as an ESL teacher refreshing it for them), and it's a pain for them to decipher things in a foreign language in their own country. Some people get pretty militant about wanting to expunge anglicisms, but they're the minority.

Some companies with global connections are indeed making English their corporate (correspondence) language, much to the dismay of some of their employees. This has to do with global business, not with English being shorter or anything. Since I work for a firm specializing in corporate clients, this is a Good Thing for me.

*Weirdly, Arnold Schwarzenneger's film voice for German movies is dubbed by someone speaking Hochdeutsch. The first time I actually heard him speak German, with his Austrian accent, I was very bemused.

#480 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 04:52 PM:
Owlmirror -- what did you mean by German dialects?
I think that my notion was that:

German language + English education + lots of English popular culture => greater use of English cognates and phrasing by young German speakers from all over Germany when wishing to communicate with young German speakers from all over Germany; that is, in preference to the phrasings of their own specific dialects.

However, that's just my random uninformed noodling.

#481 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 05:05 PM:

Bruce @478:

I thought I would call it the Catholic Universal Translator for Everyone, just to be sure.

Or would that be overly cute?

#482 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 05:17 PM:

Owlmirror -- OK, thanks for clarifying. I think all of that is going on, especially with young people. (My kids are 16 and 13, so I'm kind of close to it.) Thing is, though -- Germans from all over the country understand each other without problems. English phrases are used because they're seen as being cool. English also makes it possible for them to participate in lots of international internet activities -- for example fanfic and gaming.

German kids have adopted lol, thx, and so on. "Phat" was taken over as "fett", with the same meaning. But in addition they also have their own abbreviations for ICQ and other texting (HDGDL = hab' dich ganz doll lieb = I love you oodles, approximately; I've even seen that one penned on someone's arm cast.)

#483 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 05:21 PM:

Bruce, I've heard it said that 'catholic' is the only word that exactly reverses its meaning when capitalized.

Well, OK, I was saying it. But only because it was funny.

#484 ::: Madeline F ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 05:44 PM:

Annalee Newitz'z article behind PNH's "Focus" Sidelight link is pretty tacky. Some scientists, by blocking "PAK", can mitigate the effects of Fragile X syndrome in mice. What is PAK? How close is the mouse analog of Fragile X to human Fragile X? What were the side effects of blocking PAK in mice? The article she links doesn't say, and that's just to start.

Even if scientists had the exact mouse analog of Fragile X and PAK was blocked perfectly with nothing else screwed up, it would still be 10 years before any drug for humans could hit the market. But nothing that perfect ever happens in science, so it's more like 15 years. Before they can cure one syndrome that leads to some types of autism. But Newitz says "they can cure autism". Tacky as hell.

And the "inducing autism" is even more ridiculous: they made a mouse that acted kinda autistic because it was missing NLGN4 in the brain. How much human autism is from NLGN4 mutations? Will it ever be possible to manipulate NLGN4 levels in a child or adult to change their brain activity? Are there better things to manipulate on the NLGN4 pathway? Years, and years, and decades of research are still to come. Newitz's claims are utter BS.

I guess it raises interesting issues a la "if someday we will have the equivalent of 'steroids' for the mind what does that say about how we should treat the use of body steroids now?" But those issues already exist: taking some current drugs after studying makes memory work way better. Drugs affect the emotional composition of the mind today. There have been phamaceuticals to counter anxiety since the 50s; and alcohol, pot, coca leaves, etc since the dawn of humanity.

#485 ::: LMB MacAlister ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 06:14 PM:

abi @ #481: No, but the Revised version is even cuter.

#486 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 06:26 PM:

I want a Catholic Universal Translator for Everyone, using Standard Terminology.

#487 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 06:42 PM:

Catholic Universal Translator Interstellar for Everyone 3.14159

#488 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 07:14 PM:

Catholic Universal Translating Infallible Etheric Pisciform Omnilingual Unit

(Mind-bogglingly useful, too)

Bah.

Catholic Universal Thoroughly Infallible Telepathic Omnilingual Unquestionable Translator

#490 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 09:41 PM:

Regarding Seed: One page that I found by the author mentions a useful tip that I have not seen elsewhere: If you want to clear away a specific flower, shift-click on it.

Culling is sometimes necessary, especially if you want to make sure that a particular set of flowers breed with each other.

I have an idea in mind that I think I will need to read the genome project pages to accomplish. Mwahahaha.

#491 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 10:55 PM:

This has nothing to do with Latin, Seeds or Science Fiction but . . . well . . . my tattoo is done and it's either this or running around in sub-freezing weather with my shirt off. It really is the coolest tattoo in the entire history of the world. (No offense to those, including myself, who already have "pretty cool" tattoos, intended.)

Dido's Tattoo

#492 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 11:03 PM:

err...Sorry. I should have know that would be too smart for me.

Dido's Tattoo

Oooh! And it even shows up BLUE if you didn't screw it up!

#493 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2008, 11:45 PM:

I watched Layer Cake tonight. I could have used a Universal Translator, or a babelfish, or a bottleshrimp, to figure out what people (aside from Michael Gambon) were saying most of the time.

#494 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 12:46 AM:

"πενθεσιλεια" is indeed nifty.

OH, and the horses look about ready to charge.
And perhaps to trample someone.

Are they just horses qua horses, or are they particular and specific horses (the horses that pull Apollo's chariot, as a random classical example)?

#495 ::: Tim Walters ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 01:11 AM:

I just found out that Boiled In Lead has an album of new material coming out March 25. I'm sure I'm not the only one here for whom that's good news!

#497 ::: LMB MacAlister ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 03:06 AM:

Marilee, those are wonderful indeed, but they're not really Fabulous if there's no MiGo amongst 'em.

dido, amazing ink! And quite an ordeal, I'm sure. Are you planning any additional coloration?

#498 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 04:42 AM:

Quantum doesn't mean "infinitesimal amount" in the context of "Quantum of Solace", either. It means a fixed quantity. Being a Bond geek, I have actually read the original short story - IIRC it's referring to a belief that everyone's life has a certain amount of comfort or good fortune in it, even if it occurs at different points for different people.

Myself, I would go for a Socratic Universal Translator, which converts everything into a pedagogical dialogue.
Or, better still, the Kai Lung Universal Translator.

-- k'Rkha v'Hhak iss tk'Cha!

(O most puissant and venerable captain, it is only with the most profound feelings of shame and no-pleasure that this unworthy and ill-jointed person informs you that, unless you remove your excellent and intricately crafted vessel from the purview of this unsanitary and malodorous planet, a decent respect for his illiterate and deformed superiors will compel the unhappy serf who now has the profound and undeserved honour to pour his discordant and ill-chosen words into your discriminating ear to open fire.)

#499 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 05:43 AM:

dido, very cool.

#500 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 06:19 AM:

dido @ 491... my tattoo is done and it's either this or running around in sub-freezing weather with my shirt off

Horsing around?

This being an SF place, that got me thinking about the Illustrated Man, and the tradition of tattoos that come to life. Is it my imagination or, a few years back, was there a TV ad that involved a bunch of mythical creatures going all over the place until, at the end of the ad, they came back home to someone's body where they nested as tattoos? I don't remember what the ad was for. Maybe it was for a videogame.

#501 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 06:42 AM:

500: I think that happened in "Electra", but I watched it while tired, injured, drunk and high - I may be wrong. (Yes, I had a great New Year; why do you ask?)

#502 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 07:33 AM:

A note to Jo Walton and other Mitfordians: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article3273613.ece

#503 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 07:47 AM:

"...Luc Besson's EuropaCorp has signed with graphic novel publisher Casterman for the big screen adaptation rights to Jacques Tardi's classic comic book series "Aventures Extraordinaires d'Adele Blanc-Sec," reports Variety. (...) Published since 1976, with nine novels to date, "Aventures" is set between 1911 and 1922 in a Paris traumatized by World War I. Their heroine, Adele Blanc-Sec, a fetching popular novelist pursued by dumb cops, monsters, rancorous villains and wannabe lovers..."

#504 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 07:48 AM:

Serge #500: I don't remember that ad, but you just reminded me of that awesome X-Files episode where Scully totally did it with that dreamy guy with the talking tattoo that sounded like Jodie Foster.

#505 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 07:58 AM:

ethan @ 504... The tattoo sounded like Jodie Foster because it was she.

#506 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 08:03 AM:

Dido @ 492

Wow. That is fabulous. I love the dynamic composition and the posing of the horses. You are one decorated classicist.

#507 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 08:08 AM:

Narilee @ 489

Neat photos, and a real bogglement at the realization that this guy makes his living from stock photos of fungi. Now that's specialization!

#508 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 08:17 AM:

Gah, why get up at 4 in the morning to post things if you're going to misspell the names of people you've been corresponding with since the Upper Cretaceous? I'm sorry, Marilee, I looked right through that goof in preview, hit Post, and then I saw it, as the mills of the http gods were grinding, just too late to stop.

Oh, well, Catholic Universal Translator Utilizing Pataphysics

#509 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 08:20 AM:

Serge #505: That...would explain it. Wow. So it was.

#510 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 09:30 AM:

Tim Walters (#495): I'm impressed/amazed too, and I've made note of the date. At least BiL shouldn't be like some of the dinosaur rock groups shambling back to life these days. (To take one of the less Jurassic examples, I love the Police's music, but a Sting somewhere around *my* age just doesn't seem right! These days, he's Gordon again.)

#511 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 10:37 AM:

Thank you everybody!

Owlmirror: Well...um...since you asked; it's the horses of Achilles after the death of Patroklos in book 17 of the Iliad. If you look closely at Balios (the one on the left) you can see he's crying. I know, I know. All my other tattoos are just as geeky.

Ajay @498: I LOVE the Kai Lung translator.

#512 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 10:52 AM:

Dido: Ok, when I looked at that I was wondering about the fall of blue dots.

Now I know.

#513 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 11:29 AM:

Serge (500): That was one of SciFi's cool "if" bits.

#514 ::: Carol Kimball ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 12:58 PM:

For you Russian-speakers/readers/translators:

Back in the 70's, a friend remarked that the original version of "War and Peace" was a fraction the size of the English translation, as Russian was a "Me, Tarzan, you, Jane" language with specifics somehow folded into the words. I'm reminded of Niven's Moties who can describe a multi-story building, down to the color of its paint, in seven (?) words.

I've since wondered if she'd gotten an abridged version.

Comments? Examples?

#515 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 01:02 PM:

Yay! A truly rotten (but funny) character gets his.

#516 ::: Tim Walters ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 01:07 PM:

Faren @ 510: At least BiL shouldn't be like some of the dinosaur rock groups shambling back to life these days.

Based on the six-minute montage of the album on their site, I'd say their undead quotient is very low. I don't know if it's actually live-in-the-studio, but it has that feel.

#517 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 01:35 PM:

Re War and Peace: I think she got an abridged version.

Russian does have a lot of density, but the written style isn't terse. And lots of things which we gloss, they detail. Take, for instance the naming of names, in the opening is crucial, as knowing those names means one can then read relationships between people from the ways in which the names are used; so in that in Russian the use of, Sergei Vasilivich means something different from Sergei, which is different from Ser'yozha.

A diligent translator might try to relate those differences, and so pad the book.

But other things will be shorter in English. All in all, I'd guess it's probably longer in Enlgish, but it ain't short in Russian.

I suppose I ought to get some Shakespeare in Russian, to see how it fares.

#518 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 01:42 PM:

Leo Toy's War and Pieces?

#519 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 01:56 PM:

Yay! A truly rotten (but funny) character gets his.

Is there something there I'm missing? Because it looks to be like the female character znqr n gbgnyyl hajneenagrq nffhzcgvba, fnvq fbzr anfgl guvatf, naq fgbyr n enaqbz thl'f ung.

Which is perhaps absurd to rot13, but there it is.

#520 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 02:05 PM:

Carrie--look here for why Xopher and I are doing happy dances.

#521 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 02:17 PM:

Ah. OK, that makes more sense. Thanks, TexAnne.

#522 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 03:17 PM:

Xopher, I fainted dead away when I read that comic. Brilliant. (I'm also in love with the backgrounds Randall drew for it.) Man. I always thought that hat was invulnerable.

Re Boiled in Lead, I'm not familiar with the band (and Celtic music doesn't tend to be my cuppa, although any band that covers "Over, Under, Sideways, Down" is at least theoretically OK in my book), but I've noticed that in recent years the whole phenomenon of band-reuniting-after-years-inactive has transformed from being reliably awful to being almost, but not quite, reliably good. Throwing Muses, Wire, Mission of Burma, and a whole bunch of other bands I can't think of right now have recently put out new albums (and performed live shows) that were as good as, and sometimes better than, their classic-era stuff. Something in the air, maybe.

#523 ::: Per Chr. J. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 04:09 PM:

Carol Kimball @ 514:

War and Peace is not exactly short in a full Russian version, either. I haven't read that much translation theory, but I believe that translations in general are thought to be usually longer, and not shorter, but I do not know specifically about Russian into English.

What could give somebody the "Me Tarzan, you Jane" impression [I must admit that I hadn't thought about it that way before] is, among other things, that (modern) Russian does not have an overt copula in the present tense - English "I am a student" is in Russian "Ya student" (I student). Phraseology is often different, for example, "I have a car" is literally "To me car", and the way to express "I need to..." might be said to be "For me necessary...". It is also possible to pack a lot of meaning into a single verb, as you have a lot of similar but distinct verbs due to the existence of verbal aspect (perfect/imperfect - most verbs have a "partner" of the other aspect), as well as frequent verb formation by prefixation and/or suffixation. For instance, the verb to describe an action may say quite a bit of the nature of the action / the way the action was conducted that Germanit languages often would use a whole phrase to convey.

Yours,
Per

#524 ::: Per Chr. J. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 04:12 PM:

Me @ 523:

For Germanit, read Germanic, of course.

Per

#525 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 04:34 PM:

Per 523: War and Peace is not exactly short in a full Russian version, either.

Q: How do Russian novelists commit suicide?
A: They leap from atop their manuscripts.

#526 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 04:51 PM:

Xopher @ 525 -

LOL!

#527 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 04:59 PM:

For abi -- new directions in bookbinding? ;)
http://msnyder.typepad.com/the_labyrinth/2008/01/devouring-books.html

#528 ::: Owlmirror ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 07:13 PM:

Pulled from the Seed evolv-o-mat:


Fluorescent Nightshade: 57.2, 0x0, 6, 9, 43.9, 0.4, 2.5, 1.4, 4.3, 90.0, 1.3, 4, 0.6, 0.4, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.1, 0.8, 0.9, 0x160016, 0xf0705, 12.4, 7.2, 11, 20, 0.8, 1.9

#529 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 10:29 PM:

dido, #492, that's quite a tattoo! (Editing this now that I've read all the posts) I thought the dots were part of the art, not tears.

Bruce (StM), #508, 'sokay, it's one of the more unusual misspellings of my name. When I say my name to people on the phone, they frequently offer the common mishearings: Marilyn, Maureen, etc., but there are a few who always hear Nadine.

Debbie, #527, those are neat books! Er, food!

#531 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 11:12 PM:

Carrie: He's a recurring character - see also A-Minus-Minus, Nerd Sniping, Bass, et al. (The hover comment re Ebay feedback in the first one is still priceless.)

#532 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 11:18 PM:

Does anybody know why Joss Whedon would have named a spaceship Dortmunder in Firefly? I presume that he wouldn' have stooped to making a beer joke just because the ship's crew are all dressed like they serve in the Kaiser's Navy.

#533 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2008, 11:48 PM:

Mikael@417: My score says "avulso", not "propulso"; does that alter your translation? (I'm also wondering if "ineffabilis" should be, say, "indescribable" instead of "unmentionable", but the online Latin dictionary isn't cooperating.)

Steve@443: is that anything like the Adam West camp Batman period?

Serge@532: I know nothing of Firefly, but given Whedon's sense of humor he might be referring to the series of comic caper novels by Donald Westlake. Dortmunder is a very small-time crook who every now and then gets an idea for a major stunt, calls up his usual gang, and ends up making (effectively) minimum wage or less for his trouble (although we have fun watching the downfall of the truly unpleasant and occasional good fortune to the relatively innocent).

#534 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 02:20 AM:

Open thread: Has anyone heard of, and this is very vague, a series of detective novels where the detective is an alien? Living in Texas, I think? Who may or may not be gay? Google hates me right now.

#535 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 04:58 AM:

534: No. Let's write them!

#536 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 05:53 AM:

CHip @ 533... Thanks. I had found a reference to Westlake's character when I googled the name. Based on your own description, this does apply to the crew of the Firefly, whose various extralegal jobs usually get them very little money. ("Harsh words were exchanged. Bullets were exchanged.")

#537 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 09:40 AM:

(Mentionned in the latest newsletter of Annals of Improbable Research)

"Allergy to Human Seminal Fluid: Cross-Reactivity with Dog Dander," Maria Basagaña, Borja Bartolomé, Carlos Pastor, Ferran Torres, Rosario Alonso, Fernando Vivanco, and Anna Cisteró- Bahíma, Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, vol. 121, no.
1, January 2008, pp. 233-9. (Thanks to Dan Heck for bringing this to our attention.) The authors, at Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, Spain, and elsewhere, explain:

"Human seminal plasma (HSP) allergy is uncommon... We sought to assess the presence of IgE cross-reactivity among proteins from dog epithelium and HSP and to attempt to identify the allergens involved....

"Conclusions: IgE cross-reactivity among proteins from dog dander and human PSA is demonstrated."

(I am NOT going to... ah... insert any jokes about Rick Santorum)

#538 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 10:50 AM:

Faren Miller @ #510: At least BiL shouldn't be like some of the dinosaur rock groups shambling back to life these days.

T.Rex?

#539 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 10:57 AM:

This should be a pretty sight tomorrow morning:


Jupiter-Venus conjunction

#540 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 02:06 PM:

#539: Should we be stocking up on milk and bread?

(The last time those planets lined up like that there was a really good sale.)

#541 ::: Neil Willcox ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 05:18 PM:

534, 535 - An alien detective who may or may not be gay? The cover blurb writes itself:

He had solved mysteries throughout the galaxy, but this would be his greatest adventure and most confounding puzzle - his own sexuality!

#542 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 05:56 PM:

Steve 539: Unfortunately, it's supposed to be pouring here. :-(

Neil 541: That does SOUND like it wrote itself, I must admit.

#543 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 06:09 PM:

My parents sent me home from a holiday visit with a slab of bacon. Maybe two pounds, roughly cut from the side of some Mennonite family friends' pig. A free-range, table-scrap-fed, extra-milk-fattened pig.

I stuck it in the freezer and forgot about it for nearly a month.

I defrosted and cooked up a couple of slices the other morning.

Man, oh, man, I am so glad I'm am omnivore.

I'm going to make this stuff last. A pig that good, you don't eat all at once.

#544 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 06:44 PM:

ethan @ 534... Well, there was 1987's movie The Hidden, starring Kyle MacLachlan.

An alien is on the run in America. To get his kicks, it kills anything that gets in its way, and uses the body as a new hiding place. This alien has a goal in life; power. Hotly pursued by another alien (who's borrowed the body of a dead FBI agent), lots of innocent people die in the chase.

It's as good as it sounds.

#545 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 06:57 PM:

Serge--was that the one with Claudia Christian? If so, I second the recommendation.

#546 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 07:36 PM:

Hmm...so consensus says I'm making those books up? I had a feeling. It at least seems like if they existed they'd be a pretty easy google. ajay, I think I'll give writing duties to you, if you don't mind; I don't have the right kind of brain to plot out mysteries. Neil--bwah!

Serge #544: I added that to my Netflix queueueueue not so long ago, but the other day I removed it to make room for other things (damned 500 movie limit), thinking that it was my Agent Cooper love and nothing else making it seem like a good idea. Are you suggesting I should put it back in there?

#547 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 07:44 PM:

ethan... I saw The Hidden about 20 years ago, but I remember that it was fairly decent. Yes, TexAnne, it had Claudia Christian in it, and Michael Nouri.

#549 ::: LMB MacAlister ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 10:07 PM:

ethan, seems like a friend recommended a book like that to me, years ago. Seems like she had lost her copy, and I never could find one in a store. I don't remember anything else about it/them.

#550 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2008, 11:56 PM:

ethan @534: There was also the tv series "Alien Nation", which had a number of tie-in novels.

#551 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 12:06 AM:

Sorry, ethan, I couldn't google anything like that up, either. The closest thing I know is a single book from 1949 by Hal Clement: Needle.

#552 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 12:09 AM:

Ha, I was just going to suggest Needle too.

#553 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 12:26 AM:

This page from Google Books' copy of The Gay Detective Novel by Judith A. Markowitz has the intriguing line:

Nonhuman amateur detectives include cats (e.g., Rita Mae Brown's Sneaky Pie Brown), dogs (e.g., Virginia Lanier's bloodhounds), vampires (e.g., Lee Killough's Garreth Mikaelian), and aliens from outer space (e.g., Mike Resnick's Whatdunits), but only one dinosaur: Eric Garcia's Vince Rubio.

#554 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 01:08 AM:

Yeah, that Hal Clement book was the closest I came up with, too. And sorry, Julie L., but Alien Nation is definitely not what I'm thinking of. Neither is Whatdunits, but that book does look pretty good...

#555 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 06:24 AM:

They're calling it the Dahlgren railgun

Apart from confusion over what Dahlgren might refer to, the original Dahlgren guns worked. Railguns are still exotic and impractical.

Besides, giuven the tendency to name things for political reasons, who might one of these contraptions be named for, if it ever should enter service?

#556 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 08:07 AM:

541: well, using an alien species which undergoes metamorphosis into an adult reproductive form makes "coming out" less of a metaphor than a description.

"I feel attracted to males, but until I mature from my larval stage, I won't know whether I'm gay or not - after all, I might just be female."

#557 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:18 AM:

Steve C. (#539): Thanks for the link -- I'd been wondering which planets were on display the last few pre-dawns, but hadn't quite motivated myself to check. (Too hazy for viewing today, but there have already been some awesome sights!)

#558 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:22 AM:

Linguistic query for speakers of the Queen's English: is there a difference in usage between "shit" and "shite"?

#559 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:29 AM:

558: "shite" is commoner in Scotland and IIRC the north of England. Apart from that, I wouldn't say that one could be used in a context where the other couldn't, either as an exclamation, a literal noun, a non-literal noun or an adjective.

#560 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:30 AM:

Faren Miller @ 557 -

You're welcome. I got a couple of shots of the conjunction.


Jupiter and Venus

#562 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 11:22 AM:

Marilee, #551: Needle had a sequel called Through the Eye of a Needle. It wasn't as good IMO.

#563 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 01:03 PM:

Dave Bell @ 555

You certainly wouldn't want to name it after any Repbublican, since they have a rep for not being straight-shooters. Of course, if you're in a truly sardonic mood you could call it the Ginsburg Gun after Allen "Peter Bent It" Ginsburg.

#564 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 09:03 PM:

Dave Bell, #555, Dahlgren is a little town near me in Virginia that has a Naval Weapons Base also called Dahlgren.

Lee, #562, I don't think I ever read the sequel. Thanks for the tip, although I don't think I'll go looking for it now.

#565 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:04 PM:

Serge @ 297: In my mind's ear this works well in the sputtering voice of Sylvester the Cat.

Clifton @ 340: I didn't have to look at all closely at the map or read any of the lettering to recognize the curves of those mountain ranges.

#566 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:07 PM:

Dido @ 259: Thanks! And amazing that you did it in about two hours!

#567 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:26 PM:

Allan Beatty @ 565... It's sad to see grownups who, when placed before Culture, associate said Culture with Warner Bros cartoons. So very sad. Oh, and did I tell you that I learned to speak English in large part from watching those cartoons? (I heard that, ethan.)

#568 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:29 PM:

This being February, Turner Classic Movies is showing movies that won an Oscar, or which were nominated. Tonight we have...

The Hospital(1971)... A harried hospital administrator copes with rising costs, a seductive young woman and a serial killer.
#569 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:33 PM:

Serge #568: With George C. Scott and Diana Rigg, no less. That sounds pretty damn good, actually.

#570 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:46 PM:

ethan @ 569... True. One does wonder who writes those capsule descriptions though. Would you want to watch a movie where "...a vacationing scientist stumbles upon a Martian invasion..." if you didn't know that this is George Pal's War of the Worlds?

#571 ::: Robin Z ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 10:57 PM:

Off-topic (can you be off-topic in an open thread? I haven't read the comments, is what I mean): I don't know if anyone else is still annoyed about danah boyd on Wikipedia, but here's a little something to raise your blood pressure - bill bissett got his name lowercased, no argument. (Of course, if I'm any judge, mentioning it will just mean that Wikipedia will "fix" bill bissett.)

#572 ::: dido ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2008, 11:00 PM:

Alan Beatty @566: Delighted! As I say a few 100 comments down from 259, it really ended up being a blessing.

(Also, in the interests of full disclosure: I teach Latin for a living; oh how I wish I could go back and edit that comment, "criba"* indeed.)

*should be "scriba"--and many others. A distinctly inferior manuscript.

#573 ::: Kathryn from Sunnyvale ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 01:06 AM:

I used my new pressure cooker for the first time tonight. Vegetable stew in 5 minutes (plus prep time)--what an amazing product of the 21st century! Makes the microwave look like a can of sterno, it does.

[whispers come in from the internet]

...Vegetable stew in 5 minutes (plus prep time) with very low probability of exploding--what an amazing product of the 21st century!

Now if only I had a deadline pressure cooker--next week's food would be done yesterday.

#574 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 01:14 AM:

Kathryn from Sunnyvale @ 573... if only I had a deadline pressure cooker--next week's food would be done yesterday.

But wait!
There is more.
It's a pressure cooker and a time machine!

#575 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 01:31 AM:

Movie recommendation! I just watched the short film of The Call of Cthulhu (netflix has it, I don't know about its availability otherwise) that the HP Lovecraft Historical Society made in 2005, and it's awesome, awesome, awesome. (Pay less attention than usual, even, to the comments on imdb, as someone with a weird vendetta against the movie seems to be dominating them.)

They decided to do it as a silent movie in the style of the 20s, and while it's not flawless, it's really fantastic. Lots of miniatures and stop motion and layering and trick photography, done really well, and it does a better job adapting the story for the screen than I would have thought possible.

#576 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 02:35 AM:

For those who want to find things, there's a swell freeware ephemeris at Stellarium.org It's really good. When I was in Germany if figured it out, and my view was set to local time.

It's got ground scenes from several places and a wiki (which I've not availed myself of). You can fast forward, set it up in redlight; so as to make it less damaging to night vision, have grids, names, outlines, etc.

I like it. It's freeware, and prety nifty.

That, btw, is a great photo of the conjunction. I wish it had been visible from here.

#577 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 02:42 AM:

Learn something new everyday. Checking the features, it seems one can have differnt constellation maps.

Sky culture: Western, Chinese, ancient Egyptian, Polynesian

It also seems one can get stereoscopic vision. I'm not sure what them mean, as the stars are so far away they all seem to be in a plane, but hey, maybe it's a tool, such as was done to find Pluto. Not a real search engine, but a way to practice.

#578 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 02:49 AM:

Serge @#570

Would you want to watch a movie where "...a vacationing scientist stumbles upon a Martian invasion..." if you didn't know that this is George Pal's War of the Worlds?

Hell yeah! I would be disappointed to find out that Bruce Campbell wasn't in it though.

#579 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:25 AM:

Mary Dell @ 578... I would be disappointed to find out that Bruce Campbell wasn't in it though.

I'd pay good money for that. If he were in it, he might get to again say "Klaatu Barada Nikto".

#580 ::: Per Chr. J. ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:08 AM:

@ 575:

I'd like to second the recommendation of the Call of Cthulhu movie. As to the original story as well, a fellow SF fan here in the Oslo (Norway) area has joked that we should try to con the historical society into putting up a placque in the Old Town area in memory of second mate Gustaf Johansen...

#581 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:40 AM:

ethan @ 575... Sue just put it near the top of her NetFlix queue. I notice that one of the cast members plays someone called Unhelpful Bureaucrat. The horror, the horror!

#582 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:44 AM:

Serge @581:
Unhelpful Bureaucrat. The horror, the horror!

The redundancy! The redundancy!*

-----
* The recursion! The recursion!

#583 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:48 AM:

Abi @ 582... The pleonasm! The pleonasm!

#584 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 10:21 AM:

(Returning to miscellany) A new species of whirligig beetle has been named after Roy Orbison, by the same group of scientists who previously named several new species of slime-mold beetles after G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Darth Vader (as noted in the linked article).

#585 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 10:30 AM:

Faren @ 584... Remember how the San Francisco Chronicle's late Herb Caen, who liked wearing nice clothes, got quite a kick when he found out about the caenorhabditis elegans, even though it was a worm, and not one named after him?

#586 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 01:12 PM:

Just a comment on how things tend to return to the mean.

I went and read the talk page on the mediation request about the edit war going on re dsmvwllng.

sheesh! Forget that the page is slanted (there's a section on how it's a form of censorship, and the fellow who seems to have entered that is the guy who dislikes cory, and the example of censoring is the comment from B-B).

No, it's the way the comments about how to address the question (balancing the possibility that it might be mis-used, with a single sided assertion that it is nothing but part of a process of banning, meant to add insult to injury), end with a flounce which I can only describe by quoting Mythbuster Adam, "I reject your reality and substitute one of my own".

Because that's pretty much what he says.

I think I'm glad my hobby horses are things like terrorism, and will's are things like the electoral college. We can step away from them; hell we can even argue about them reasonably, because they aren't about us.

Ok, 'nuff said.

#587 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 01:14 PM:

gahh!!!

I meant, of course, torture, not terrorism.

#588 ::: Jules ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 03:25 PM:

Responses to various comments in reverse order of posting...

Terry @586: You should read the archives of the _last_ edit war. This is nothing compared to when MrkYrk was in full swing.

TexAnne @558: Personally, as a southerner, I would only use "shite" as an adjective, although I'm aware the usage is somewhat different in the north. And I may be unusual as a southerner in using it at all.

Ethan @534: This may be considered a spoiler for the series, so I'll ROT13 it: Jra Fcrapre'f Hxvnu Bertba abiryf ner nobhg na nyvra qrgrpgvir. Not sure about any of the other aspects you mention, though, because I've yet to read any of them.

Ethan @532: I've noticed that in recent years the whole phenomenon of band-reuniting-after-years-inactive has transformed from being reliably awful to being almost, but not quite, reliably good. The Eagles? I haven't heard their latest album yet, but some of the stuff played in a radio interview with Don Henley I caught over christmas sounded good.

#589 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 04:37 PM:

Terry Karney @#587:

gahh!!!

I meant, of course, torture, not terrorism.

Either way, you need a nicer hobby! Knitting, maybe?

#590 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 06:04 PM:

I just finished spending the day(*) cleaning out Sue's closet, where I found a diskette for a Star Wars videogame (Win 3.1), and two "I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream" mousepads, never used) that Ellison was giving to anybody interested at LA's 1995 con. Anybody interested?

(*) To think I could instead have watched The Black Hole on TCM...

#591 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 06:26 PM:

Dept. of therapeutic opportunities: Anyone who knows something about the real history of 20th C. political poster art (Ben Shahn, etc.) can have a field day here.

#592 ::: Todd Larason ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 06:38 PM:

There's a mal-formed link in comment 491 which makes everything following unreadable for me (Safari 2.0.4). I'm guessing it's okay for most other people, or it would have been fixed by now (at the least, there wouldn't have been another 100 comments!), but is there any chance someone with the proper powers could fix it anyway? I'm sure I'm missing good stuff!

#593 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:07 PM:

Mousepads touched by Harlan Ellison? Yes, I'm interested. (Now, if only they said 'I have no mouse, and I must highlight'...)

#594 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:07 PM:

It's too late for me this year, but some of you may be interested in the third annual Bloggers' (Silent) Poetry Reading, or Brigid in Cyberspace Poetry Reading, as it's also known. Googling "silent poetry reading" will get you a lot of places to see what this is about -- basically posting a favorite poem to your blog on Feb. 2.

#595 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:10 PM:

If that needs to be fixed, they should fix the same error in 576.

#596 ::: guthrie ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:15 PM:

can anyone help me out? I have an SF book somewhere in my library which I want to read again. Somehow, I cannot find it. This is probably because I cannot recall who wrote it or what it is called. The storyline begins with some man commanding a space fleet of human ships manned and built by Earths colonies, losing and escaping from a battle with some aliens who are numerically superior. They escape back to their command centre on another planet, and then some humans turn up from earth, an earth which has sealed itself off (By means of automatic guns and stuff) from the colonies for centuries.

#597 ::: abi wants to know if Safari users can read this thread now ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:26 PM:

OK, I have fixed Terry's link and munged dido's in a less broken fashion (since she fixes it in the next comment).

I don't have Safari on tap; can a Safari user please check and see if it works now?

#598 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:28 PM:

Works fine in Safari 3.0.4.

#599 ::: Todd Larason ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:37 PM:

And it's fine for me now too. Thanks Abi!

#600 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:46 PM:

I have discovered the entire top of my desk (briefly, but the items on top of it are either normally present, or in transit), and now have a large, blue, IKEA bag of clothing to be hauled off to the thrift store. Less helpfully, I also have several clothing items I'm not quite able to haul to the thrift store, in search of more appreciative owners.

#601 ::: guthrie ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 07:46 PM:

OK, please ignore my post number 596, because I've just worked out it is Norman Spinrad's "The Solarians" that I am looking for. Still can't find it, annoyingly enough.

#602 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 08:57 PM:

Mary Dell: Knitting?

No, that leads to The Terror.

#603 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:08 PM:

Fragano @ 593... Punning, eh? I'll let that pass. This once. Just send me an email with your address.

#604 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:15 PM:

Puns, moi? I am not Harry Turtledove, who, in one novel described a magical process which used an actual mouse (the animal, that is) to highlight a block of text on a scroll and replace it with another block of text.

#605 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2008, 09:19 PM:

Fragano @ 604... Shame on Turteltaub.

#607 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:45 AM:

Via snopes.com an early example of the disk drive:http://www.snopes.com/photos/technology/storage.asp

#608 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 10:00 AM:

Deadline pressure cookers, like deadlines, make a whooshing sound. (I miss Douglas Adams)

#609 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 02:28 PM:

Fragano*, I'm interested to get your opinion about this. If we adopt a boy, we're thinking of naming him Franklin. We're great admirers of Benjamin Franklin, but we're a little iffy about it because he was, at one time in his life, a slave holder. However, he was also an abolitionist later in life. What's your take on him, as a namesake/namegiver?

*opinions of everybody else also welcome, of course

#610 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 02:38 PM:

Mary Dell: One, that he became an abolitionist is in his favor.

Two: Go back far enough (and that's not very far) and everyone has something we no longer like about them.

Three: His attempt to trick an opponent into killing himself with the story of the kite probably speaks more against him than the slaveholding (it being ubiquitous, and not looked down on, at the time).

Four: All in all, Ben Franklin is a swell guy to be named after.

#612 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 05:29 PM:

Terry Karney @#610:

I wasn't aware of the tricking-opponent story - I'd like to read that one, it sounds like a classic.

The slave-holding is a crucial issue for us, even though I agree that not every slave holder was necessarily a bad person, or every abolitionist a good one. But we'd like to choose a name that comes in on the side of the angels, specifically where civil rights are concerned, or one that predates the concept entirely (Charlemagne Dell has a nice ring to it).

#613 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 06:09 PM:

The kite story was faked. It couldn't be done that way. Franklin knew enough of what he was doing to know that. But the Royal Society (and one person in particular, whose name escapes me) were pratts, refusing to publish his papers.

So he sent them an account of the kite. One of three things was going to happen. It would get published.

It would get spiked.

The guy who didn't like him (who was an expert, of sorts; though not it seems, to Franklin's level) would try it, and get blasted to char.

It may have changed the course of events, because that paper made him a celebrity in France; were someone tried it (paying a sentry to fly the device. Said sentry was almost crisped).

That was why he was sent to Paris as the envoy of the Continental Congress.

But it's probable he sent the paper with malicious intent.

#614 ::: Lizzy L ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 07:19 PM:

Mary Dell at 609, there's also Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Not a bad namesake....I know he didn't bomb the train lines to the concentration camps. Yes, he should have. Still not a bad namesake.

#615 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 08:13 PM:

Say...Fragano, perhaps I should clarify that I'm seeking your opinion in #609 because of some particularly enlightening comments you made a while back about Trollope, not, particularly, because of the color of your skin. I haven't made much of a study of racism in history, other than the broad strokes, although I've been reading more and more about it lately. You clearly have considerable knowledge about it so I'm interested to hear your perspective on Franklin.

#616 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 08:14 PM:

Terry @#613: thanks for elaborating. Cool story. I always like hearing about dastardly deeds that were just sort of taken as okay back in the day.

Lizzy L @614: If we name a kid Franklin Dell I don't think we'll be able to keep ourselves from calling him Franklin Delano from time to time, actually. Said theoretical kid might not be as amused as we would be. But yeah, we like Roosevelt, too. Ben Franklin has the advantage of having been a scientist and inventor, etc.

#617 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 08:20 PM:

Mary Dell #616: If you want an inventor's name, you could always go for Tesla. Although...does Tesla Dell sound weird in a good way, or a bad way? I can't tell.

Or, oooh, Tesla Coil Dell! Your name-search is over!

#618 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 08:27 PM:

Harking back to the parlor game for a moment: I had an idea for a story I wanted to try translating, but I couldn't find any good passages to work with. (The best I found was the last paragraph of Chapter XI, the one that begins "And thirty seconds later...". It contains a bunch of words that would have been new to the Romans, but that's workable. It's also massively spoileriffic, and that's not.)

In case anybody else wants to try it, the work in question was that well-known classic, Quo Vadis?. Not the one they made into a movie starring Peter Ustinov - although that might be interesting too - but the one they made into a movie starring Kurt Russell.

#619 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 08:32 PM:

Mary 616: Just don't name him Farmer Inthe, and you'll be find. That would definitely be a Defense Rests name.

#620 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 08:38 PM:

In other news, my sort-of-nephew Alex just got his Letter of Appointment, and barring disasters will be attending the United States Military Academy at West Point starting with "Beast Barracks" at the end of June!

Io! Io! Alexus Invictus! Io! Io!

(OK, what's Latin for "WHOOHOO!!!!!!!!!"?)

#621 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:21 PM:

In today's episode of the continuing game show "How stupid is ethan, really?" we have Xopher sending ethan scurrying to google trying to figure out who "Farmer Inthe" was.

Duhhh...

#622 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:26 PM:

Paul A... The one with Kurt Russell, directed by John Carpenter, eh? I rather like the one with Peter Ustinov. (The best line went something like "Do not torture the Muse.")

#623 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:28 PM:

ethan @ 617... Tesla Coil Dell! Your name-search is over!

How about Tesla Doyle Dell?
(C'mon, Mary. You asked for it. Literally.)

#624 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:35 PM:

Me 619: fine*

ethan 621: Mwah-hah-hah.

#625 ::: HP ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:40 PM:

Mary Dell, you could always name your boy Franklin Tesla Coulomb Ohm Faraday Dell. I'm sure he'd get a charge out of that.

#626 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 09:48 PM:

#625: And when he used the Parent Defense, he'd be acquitted of battery.

#627 ::: HP ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 10:12 PM:

@626: I imagine the grandparents would put up some resistance.

#628 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 10:14 PM:

Xopher, #620, your nephew getting into West Point means he's a smart kid. It also means he's likely going to war, unless the new president actually shuts it down. I'm glad he got in, but worried about the outcome.

#629 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 10:22 PM:

627: True. And his teenage years would be full of angst-roms.

#630 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 10:47 PM:

Marilee 628: He was considering just outright joining the Army, or other options more likely to lead to him being deployed. West Point is the longest delay, and also the least likely to have him end up with his boots on the ground in Iraq soon.

It was never going to be possible to talk him out of a military career. I'd've tried, believe me.

And we're all hoping the war in Iraq will be over by then...or at least that we'll be out of it.

#631 ::: Carol Kimball ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 11:04 PM:

I am shocked, shocked, to hear that punning is going on here.

#632 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 11:22 PM:

Carol 631: And we're not even talking about the White House.

#633 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2008, 11:27 PM:

Are you ladies and gents having a pileon at Mary's expense?

#634 ::: Terrt Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:03 AM:

Xopher: He has my congratulations, sympathies, respect, and some day Respect.

Before he gets the last, he'll make a nice pet lieutenant for some old sergeant.

And he and I can make you cringe as we discuss our relative expendability. :)

#635 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:30 AM:

Ohm-my, that's quite a name. I never got used to Faraday being a character in Sarah Douglass' books.

#636 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 06:22 AM:

Faraday? That could be the name for Nicholas Cage's next kid, male or female.

Be off with you!

#637 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 07:40 AM:

630: (displays infantry bigotry) you couldn't have pointed him in the direction of a non-combatant service, like the Air Force? (ducks for cover)

Newton? Then, when he's young, you could call him Newt.

#638 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:20 AM:

Please, could we suggest some current electrical scientists?

#639 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:30 AM:

You people are so negative.

#640 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:52 AM:

Mary Dell #609: As far as I know, Ben Franklin ended his life a convinced opponent of slavery. He also, as a young man owned slaves. I'd say that his views on slavery changed over time, just as his views on liberty and obedience to the crown did. You should remember also that 'franklin' is an English noun (Chaucer wrote a 'Franklin's Tale') dating back to the Middle Ages.

You would, by the way, be naming the lad after a cousin of mine.

#641 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 10:52 AM:

604 Fragano:

I liked the reference, in the Jake Featherston as Hitler series[1] (alternate history US), in which some character mused that maybe their codes weren't such an ultra enigma after all. And all kinds of others--he loves dropping weird historical references/puns/jokes in his books, and I'm sure I miss 90% of them with my lame knowledge of history.

One talent I've noticed about Turtledove and SM Stirling is that they can do point of view descriptions from deeply unsympathetic characters in a convincing way. Both have managed to have me laughing at the wry internal comments of genuine Hitler-level villains(Featherston and Walker, even Hong with her "...and I've got mine!" line), with the cringe coming half a second later.

[1] This series ain't for the faint of heart. It's good, but nightmarish. Just imagine some large fraction of the ugliest parts of world history in the 20th century transplanted into the US.

#642 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 11:06 AM:

#614 Lizzy L:

I think Malcolm Reynolds (in that very funny Firefly episode) had it right: anyone who gets a statue in their honor was very likely some kind of SOB.

Ben Franklin strikes me as one of the less SOB-ish of them, relative to FDR or Winston Churchill or Abe Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson, say, but that may just be my ignorance or distance in time. Or maybe wielding a lot of power in hard times just requires a certain amount of SOB-ish-ness, and Franklin, with less power, had less such behavior required of him.

#643 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 11:35 AM:

Ohm-i-ghod, these puns are revolting. Who generated this topic?

#644 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 11:38 AM:

Ginger... It's all Mary Dell's volt, compounded by the foolishness of ethan's youth. For once I can say, quoting Han Solo, it's not my fault.

#645 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:04 PM:

Nanvy #638: At least we've finally gotten off the topic of reforming the electrical college.

#646 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:35 PM:

Surge @644: Joule pardon me for saying so, but methinks thou dost protonest too much.

albatross@645: you've galvanized me into action -- there's a real potential for change here.

#647 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:40 PM:

albatross, 645: Yes, there was too much resistance.

#648 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:46 PM:

You people are too insulated from the realities of life.

#649 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:54 PM:

We're just well-grounded.

#650 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 12:55 PM:

It's a sine of the times.

#651 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 01:06 PM:

When one ponders current events, there's no substitute for a good conversation with the ohm boys (and girls).

#652 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 01:24 PM:

Mary Dell @ 650... What have you done? Now I have to go to YouTube and look for Petula Clark videos.

#653 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 01:33 PM:

Oh, I think you've gone too farad that one. I couloumb like I see 'em.

#654 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 01:42 PM:

Ginger... Wire you doing this to me? (Ow. That one was lame. Time to pull the plug?)

#655 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 01:45 PM:

Serge: We should do so directly. Alternatively, we could come up with better puns.

#656 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 02:26 PM:

Serge #650: Durn you, now I have to, too.

Ooh, here she is singing "Chariot" in the world's most stylish conestoga wagon!

#657 ::: HP ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 02:28 PM:

Something, something ... uh ... impedance! Nah, I got nothin'.

I feel slightly guilty for starting all of these puns based on using eponymous electrical units as baby names. A friend of mine plays in an old-timey jug band, and was talking with his band mates about the immanent arrival of his daughter. The subject of names came up, and he said, "I'm leaning toward Lydia." The rest of the guys immediately struck up an impromptu chorus of "Lydia the Tattooed Lady." So Lydia was out. Which is a shame, because Lydia is a wonderful name, as is Franklin.

Franklin happens to be my father's middle name, and I'm rather fond of it, so I hope Mary Dell isn't put off from it.

(On the subject of electrical puns, when I was in music school many years ago, a classmate said to me, "I need to write a paper for my score-reading class. Can you name a good a conductor?" "Copper," I replied. "Never heard of him. What orchestra is he with?")

#658 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 02:31 PM:

albatross #641: Yes, that one had me laughing out loud -- not advisable when reading in bed. I was made quite happy when Featherston (read rawboned, Suth'n Hitler) was shot by a black rebel).

I find that Turtledove handles despicable characters better than Stirling (Stirling seems to have more sympathy for them, and to want the reader to identify more with them).

#659 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 02:53 PM:

Serge: Watt? The end of the circuit? Well, I thought we conducted ourselves with dignity. Nobody threatened to socket to you, although we must admit that no one was transformed by our puns either.

As I frequently say, "Power to the People!", no matter how much it hertz.

;-)

#660 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 02:59 PM:

Ginger... Watt? The end of the circuit?

Alas, yes, I'm a-frayed.

#661 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:08 PM:

Oh. poo. I thought you might be line down to recharge. ;-) I'm knot.

Sorry..I have a hard time staying away from electrical puns. Ever since physics class in college and a certain family conversation, I've managed to keep current with the subject over the years. That -- and your magnetic personality -- lead me to feel strangely attracted to this thread.

#662 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:14 PM:

ginger... I thought you might be line down to recharge

No, Ijust didn't want anybody to get so sick of those puns that they'd throw me under a bus.

your magnetic personality

It thought it was abi who generated the software-messing field.

#663 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:18 PM:

OK, wasn't there a post here a couple of years ago or something that linked to or quoted from a Mormon pamphlet recommending to teenage boys that when they feel the need to masturbate they should go fix themselves a snack instead?

I'd swear there was one, but I can't find it. Did I hallucinate that? Somebody with good search-fu, help?

#664 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:19 PM:

Serge they'd throw me under a bus.

There's a certain resonance to your statement.

#665 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:27 PM:

Xopher, 663: I googled "Mormon pamphlet boys snack" and found this blog

#666 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:30 PM:

Ginger: broken link, try again?

#668 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:51 PM:

Thanks, Ginger. I'm pretty sure that's the pamphlet, but it's not the post I was looking for.

#669 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:55 PM:

I'm sorry Xopher, that was the best I could do..even though I'm home sick, I'm still using a work-issued laptop. ;-) Good luck with your hunt!

#670 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 03:58 PM:

But with the material from that post I was able to find many sources for the pamphlet, which is what I really needed. The full one is here. Thanks, Ginger!

#671 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 04:57 PM:

HP @#657:

Franklin happens to be my father's middle name, and I'm rather fond of it, so I hope Mary Dell isn't put off from it.

Oh, no worries there. We are unfazed by puns.* We like the name Alexander but we know we couldn't stop ourselves from calling him Alexander Graham Dell. And we like the name Sam but we'd always be saying "What in the Sam Dell!?" and so forth. We also like Maximillian but it makes us start singing "Max Power, it's the name you love to touch..."

And since we won't be *having* a baby, but rather *getting* a baby, there's the whole "Dude, you're getting a Dell" thing.

Reverent, we ain't. Right now Franklin's in the lead, but I think we'll skip Tesla and Faraday. Kelvin or Darwin for a middle name would be fun - or both, opposing forces of entropy and evolution.

*punfazed. punshakeable. punstoppable.

#672 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 05:01 PM:

Mary Dell @ 671... We are unfazed by puns

Set fazers on pun!

#673 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 05:30 PM:

Serge #672 (& several previous): I can say nothing worse about my high school education than that my second form science teacher -- and damn me but I can still remember his name, Reginald Rashford Robinson, and his habit of signing his name R² Robinson -- read this out to us in class one day back when I was an impressionable young man.

#674 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 05:35 PM:

I came here just to post, but am reading to catch up on this thread, so:

albatross, #642, are you suggesting Einstein is an SOB? (sorry about that website, but they have the best pictures)

And what I came to post while I think about it:

That right-wing know-it-all Jonah Goldberg wrote an article in the 1/13 WashPost Outlook section about how Conservatism is falling down. I can't link it because it's more than 14 days back and we'd all have to pay for it (but I am making good progress on catching up with the paper). But there's a really funny bit of characterization and I'll type it in:

Fred Thompson ran a brilliant "testing the waters" campaign from his front porch, but when he tried to walk on the water, he sank like a basset hound trying to swim. Pushing the poor beast under the waves was Mike Huckabee, whose down-home folksiness makes Thompson look like David Niven.

#675 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 06:03 PM:

Fragano @ 673... "...Afterwards, Millie-Amp tried self induction and damaged her
solenoids..."

Oh goodness.

#676 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 06:20 PM:

Fragano @673: That's some pulsating prose there. I re-fuse to let anyone think that science is not exciting.

#677 ::: miriam beetle ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 06:25 PM:

mary dell,

Kelvin or Darwin for a middle name would be fun - or both, opposing forces of entropy and evolution.

franklin kelvin darwin dell? dangerously catchy. he'd have to have a really good sense of humour about it, with all the slant rhymes & especially the alliteration at the end....

#678 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 06:43 PM:

As for the Dell's naming, I must say I'm inclined to suggest Nabla Dell

(note: I'm used to hearing the curly d used in partial derivatives pronounced "dell")

#679 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 06:46 PM:

Open thread, new direction:
My GM showed me the
Love Ballad Generator a few days ago. It has surprisingly good Swedish, Middle German and Latin verses, I can understand the Esperanto and enjoy the Quenya. And it includes Assyrian, "Shakespearean English" and more German dialects than you'd expect.

The German dialect part is absolutely hilarious if you know what they're talking about, or for that matter if you understand enough to tell the difference in content between dialects.

Go. Play. React.

#680 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 07:08 PM:

"There are strange things done in the midday sun
For them who've been sold for oil
When the kids are sent who can't pay the rent,
Their bodies the cost of their toil
And the MidEast lights have strange sights
But the strangest of all I think
Is when Halliburton raised the curtain
On a contract drawn in red ink."

With apologies to Mr. Service (hey, it's an open forum)

#682 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 07:19 PM:

<borg> Resistance is voltage over amperage. </borg>

#683 ::: JESR ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 07:36 PM:

Re the G.R.R. Martin sidelight: his joy is balanced by the woe of my son, who had to work during the Superbowl, and whose first chance to watch the recorded game came, alas, after our dvr had a 'sode of some sort and lost its contents.

#684 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 07:37 PM:

Ginger #676: Solenoid damage not excepted?

#685 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 07:47 PM:

Fragano @684: Sure -- I believe in manifold destiny, after all. ;-)

#686 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 08:12 PM:

Ginger #685: Whether or not it's exhausted?

#687 ::: TexAnne ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 08:15 PM:

Fragano, 686: I think we should muffle this one. We tire easily.

#688 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 08:29 PM:

TexAnne: Are you running out of gas?

Fragano: exhausted or not -- makes no differential to me. I'm not some random lug nut that's going to create sparks just for the fun of it.

#689 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 08:34 PM:

Ginger, I think things may be a little smoky.

#690 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 08:59 PM:

Fragano @ 684... Blinded by Science, eh?

#691 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:02 PM:

Fragano@ 689: Not to worry! I was a trained firefighter in my youth, but that has no bearing on this topic. I have to admit I'm getting all fired up about it though. :-)

#692 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:06 PM:

Serge: Good heavens*! You're beautiful!

*Miss Sakamoto, that is.

#693 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:11 PM:

Ginger @ 692... Why, thank you! Heheheh...

#694 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:13 PM:

ethan @ 656... Thanks for the link. I tried to find one video of her singing the French version of my favorite song of hers. Alas, it wasn't to be, so here she is, doing so in English.

#695 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:15 PM:

Tom Whitmore: I like it, but for me the last line is a little off scansion.

Maybe, "done in red ink", which contracts the length of the syllable (I think the "dr" sort of have a hidden vowel between them).

#696 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:35 PM:

miriam beetle @#677: husband will put the foot down about any whimsical middle names anyway, I'm afraid. Or whimsey in general, where naming is concerned. He doesn't like the idea, for instance, of naming the theoretical kid Alexander and calling him Lex. I'm actually having a tough sell on a potential girl's name that starts with D, because he knows I'm just suggesting it because I like Dexter's Laboratory.

I'm going to win that one, though.

#697 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:41 PM:

Mary Dell @ 696... naming the theoretical kid Alexander and calling him Lex

Just keep him away from the San Andreas Fault.

#698 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 09:59 PM:

Jaysus, with the fast-moving and the thread and the oh my goodness.

Mary Dell #671: "Dude you're getting a Dell" must have struck me at exactly the right moment, because I literally ell'd oh ell.

Serge #672: And the lulz keep on coming.

Marilee #674: I'll say this for Jonah Goldberg: when all he's doing is summarizing what everyone knows already, sometimes he's a halfway decent writer.

Fragano #681: Am I bad person? My first reaction on learning that (your link seems to be broken, by the way; BBC has coverage here) was "Ooh, maybe now David Lynch will make a biopic!"

Serge #694: I also cannot find it in French. But here's someone's still-image video of the lovely Italian version, "Ciao Ciao". And here's someone playing their 45 of her singing the Kinks' "A Well-Respected Man" en français. I would kill a large number of people to get my hands on that 45.

#699 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 10:06 PM:

Good point, Terry at 695. This was very first-draft (not quite straight-out-of-the-typer). Still -- I have no idea if I could keep it up through the length of the original....

#700 ::: Tim Walters ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2008, 10:33 PM:

ethan @ 698: Unfortunately, YouTube doesn't seem to have Mike "Wizard of Speed and Time" Jittlov's short film Fashionation, set to "I Know A Place." But you might want to keep an eye out for it.

#701 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 04:29 AM:

Teresa: The Particle should be titled "Nihon Break Kogyo".

#702 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 08:21 AM:

Me, I sing the body electric.... Though if I were Ginger I'd get a Serge protector lest I heterodyne....

Hmm. Ginger... Does that mean we also get Algy and Biggles?

#703 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 08:58 AM:

Fragano @ 702: Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?

...and how did you know I'd run away from home to join the RAF? Only they don't let girls in. :-(

#704 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 09:35 AM:

#658 Fragano:

Yeah, the only problem with that scene was that it didn't happen four books earlier.

One of the creepiest things in that series, IMO, was watching the Confederate viewpoint characters adapting to fit the Freedom party's rule. Cvaxneq'f qrfprag sebz orvat n qrprag thl gb orvat n trahvar zbafgre, jvgu rnpu fgrc orvat nyzbfg haqrefgnaqnoyr, jnf cnegvphyneyl htyl. Cbggre freivat Srngurefgba nf ur qrfcvfrq uvz jnf nyzbfg nf jryy qenja.

Before that series, I hadn't read anything by Turtledove where he had a genuinely evil character as an important POV character, though Molotov and Liu Han come close in some sense. (Yvh Una'f n flzcngurgvp punenpgre nyy nebhaq, ohg gurer ner fprarf jurer fur'f qbyvat bhg "eribyhgvbanel whfgvpr", juvpu cerggl zhpu zrnaf lbh'er sbhaq thvygl naq rkrphgrq ba gur fcbg.) Ur unq crbcyr yvxr Wntre naq Yhqzvyyn jub erchqvngrq znal bs gur rivy vqrnf bs gurve fbpvrgvrf, ohg abg znal crbcyr jub jrer ernyyl gehr oryvriref va rivy.

Have you read _Conquistador_? Stirling's characterization of the overt bad guys isn't all that convincing to me (their not important POV characters), but his characterization of the "good guy" citizens of the Commonwealth is excellent, given that their values and mine (and surely Stirling's) are quite different.

I haven't been as convinced by his other bad guys. He drew some of the Draka very well in those books, and he did a really good job, IMO, with Walker and Isketerol in the Nantucket books, but his villains in the Dies the Fire world and the Pershawar Lancers just weren't as believable as characters, to me.

#705 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 10:04 AM:

Ginger #703: They don't? Oh dear. I'll have to have a word with Biggles about that.

#706 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 10:11 AM:

albatross #704; I agree on the four books earlier bit, but Turtledove seemed determined to parallel the Holocaust -- nygubhtu ur jnf nyfb qrgrezvarq gb rafher gung gur Uvgyre-nanybthr tbg uvf, naq nccebcevngryl (naq gung gur zna jub qvq whfgvpr jnf nccebcevngryl ubabherq).

I did read Conquistador, and I agree with you. I found his villain's in the Nantucket novels just too sympathetically drawn.

#707 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 10:13 AM:

Ginger @ 703... I'd run away from home to join the RAF? Only they don't let girls in

That sounds like the setup for a Shakespeare play, kind of like Twelfth Night...

#708 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 10:17 AM:

ethan @ 698... She sang in Italian too? I don't know if she is fluent in that language too, but, as far as French was concerned, she could definitely speak the language. She did her own dubbing for Goodbye Mr. Chips and for Finian's Rainbow. Her accent was absolutely lovely. Sigh...

#709 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:03 AM:

I don't know if she's fluent in Italian, and I most certainly am not, but to me her singing in the language sounds quite lovely. I quite like the lyrics in Italian, but that might just be because they're simple enough for me to understand. Same reason I like the lyrics in "Je veux qu'il revienne" by Françoise Hardy.

#710 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:04 AM:

I found his villains in the Nantucket novels just too sympathetically drawn.

I can kind of get Walker, in that he looks reasonably sane in a hard, practical, "I do what's necessary" sort of way right up until you think through the implications of his policies; the fact that the rest of the Nantucketers invariably describe him as a power-mad loon helps me remember he's Not A Nice Guy.

Perhaps it's easier to see him as being sympathetic because he's always contrasted with Hong, who is literally psychotic. I still feel sorry for her, in the way one feels sorry for a rabid dog, but sympathetic she ain't (and unless I'm mistaken, she never gets to be a viewpoint character).

#711 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:20 AM:

Serge@ #707

"Ginger @ 703... I'd run away from home to join the RAF? Only they don't let girls in"

That sounds like the setup for a Shakespeare play, kind of like Twelfth Night...

..he said, puckishly.

Now I exit, pursued by a bear.

#712 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:25 AM:

ethan... Francoise Hardy? Wow. That takes me back quite a ways, when I was still looking at the world with eyes filled with wonders.

#713 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:26 AM:

Ginger @ 711... I was thinking more of something along the lines of William Shakespeare's Twelfth Night Raid.

#714 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:41 AM:

713: I can see it now. Prospero as Barnes Wallis, Prince Hal as Guy Gibson, and a few ground crew making Rude Mechanical jokes about the oddly girlish-looking navigator...

BOUNCE: Why, good Halfmast, he is our navigator.
HALFMAST: Navigator, thou sayest? Faith, I'll warrant the course he'll steer will not be a straight one.
PRANK: It is a strange breed of aircraft, where the navigator can at the same time be a Rear Gunner.

#715 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 12:14 PM:

ajay, 714:
I'll warrant the course he'll steer will not be a straight one.

That is funnier than you might realize. Now, for Serge:

BIGGLES: (enters, disguised as an ASS)"Are we all met?"

ALGY: Aye, and well-met. Here's a marvellous convenient place for our plot; we shall rehearse it ere the mission.

SMYTH: I believe we must leave the killing out, when all's done.

BIGGLES: Fear not; I have a device to make all well. Sayest thou not a-feared, else we'll fall short.

SMYTH: Nay, I am not feared of your device, only the ladies might tremble to think on us.


#716 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 12:17 PM:

Serge #712: when I was still looking at the world with eyes filled with wonders.

Surely Françoise can still put you back into this state? I mean, have you seen her sing "Tous les garçons et les filles" in an amusement park? Admittedly, she's not very happy there, especially compared to her blown-up-skirted friends, but that scopitone-video thing never fails to make me happy.

#717 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 12:36 PM:

Carrie S #710: Walker is sane, yes, just completely sociopathic.

#718 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 12:47 PM:

ethan @ 716... Sigh. (Does that answer your question?)

#719 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 12:50 PM:

ajay @ 714... Ginger @ 715... Don't we need some Ghost somewhere in there? And maybe a bomber filled with Nazi zombies?

#720 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 01:24 PM:

Fragano, I pretty much count "completely sociopathic" as not sane. :) Regardless, the Walker whose head we spend time in is not a Walker I'd want to hang out with; he doesn't read as sympathetic to me except in the very broad sense that he's better than Hong.

#721 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 01:35 PM:

Serge #718: Yes, I believe it does.

#722 ::: Rikibeth ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 02:01 PM:

It's a shame that the jug-band musician felt he had to stay away from Lydia as a baby name. I once named fictional twins Lydia and Dorian!

#723 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 02:17 PM:

Carrie S #720: By 'sane' I mean 'functional' as opposed to 'batshit crazy'. I'd call your judgment correct.

#724 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 02:24 PM:

Yeah, Walker is rational but puts no value on other humans beyond their value to him. (Though he clearly cares about his kids, Hong, and even Isketerol and Ody to some extent.) He has no underlying rules or morals to restrain him.

By contrast, Hong is genuniely evil. And Isketerol is a bad guy I can respect and rather sympathize with.

#725 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 02:57 PM:

Serge@ #719

ajay @ 714... Ginger @ 715... Don't we need some Ghost somewhere in there? And maybe a bomber filled with Nazi zombies?

SCENE: A FOREST, PRIMEVAL. OUR HEROES LOOK UP AT THE DRONING SOUND OF A PLANE IN THE SKY

SCENE: INTERIOR OF PLANE

Nazi Zombies: sGEHIRRRRRRRNNNNNZZZZZZ (they fall from plane)

#726 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 03:08 PM:

Ginger @725:
And we already know the theme tune!

#727 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 03:45 PM:

abi @ 726... Can it be sung to the tune of a Petula Clark song?

#728 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 04:15 PM:

Gong Xi Fa Cai!.

It's farewell Year of the Pig, the Year of the Rat has begun. Currently in Melbourne celebrating (in the best festive tradition of eating and drinking too much) with family.

#729 ::: fidelio ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 04:30 PM:

#728--The same to you and your family, and eat some dumplings for us!

#730 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 04:36 PM:

What the (&@J#N#@@ is going on??!!!

a) FIVE alleged cable disconnects done undersea?
b) No US "mainstream" media reporting....

http://www.dailytech.com/Bad+to+Worse+Fifth+Undersea+Cable+Cut+in+Middle+East/article10598.htm

Bad to Worse: Fifth Undersea Cable Cut in Middle East
Shane McGlaun (Blog) - February 6, 2008 11:14 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7218008.stm

Severed cables disrupt internet

Internet outages have hit businesses and home use
Internet services have been disrupted in large parts of the Middle East and India following damage to two undersea cables in the Mediterranean.


#731 ::: mjfgates ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 06:21 PM:

I'm sure that the disconnects are actual, not just "alleged." WHo's doing it and why, now, those are good questions, but the cable thing is testable from home. Indeed, now that I've thought of it...

I can't connect to servers in Egypt, even the big government ones. Connections to Saudi Arabia, Israel, Iraq and Iran all go through totally different, not-normal paths. Yep, something's pretty messed up over there.

#732 ::: Mary Aileen has a question about old spam ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 07:40 PM:

(I asked this back in OT 99, but it was down at the bottom and never got an answer.)

Some of the old, closed posts have very old spam that never got deleted at the time. Do you want to know about it now?

#733 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 08:26 PM:

abi @#726
Ginger @725:
And we already know the theme tune!

That is oddly appropriate -- and even scarier is the offering from Serge, next to yours. I think even Petula Clark could sing that!

Finally, how about the undead Beatles?
"If the brain comes they run and hide their heads.
They might as well be dead.
If the brain comes, if the brain comes."


#734 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 08:39 PM:

Ginger @ 733... You mean, as in A Hard Day's Night of the Living Day, first brought to our attention by Faren Miller, if I remember correctly?

#735 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 08:47 PM:

albatross #724: Isketerol is not so much a bad guy as someone who is trying to figure out who the rules are changing and not always succeeding.

However, Stirling ducks the issue in the case of Odysseus, I think.

#736 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 08:49 PM:

Serge@ #734
Ginger @ 733... You mean, as in A Hard Day's Night of the Living Day, first brought to our attention by Faren Miller, if I remember correctly?

I was pondering "The Night of the Living Dead Before", but "We Can Work It Out".

#737 ::: Kathryn from Sunnyvale ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 09:27 PM:

@728,

(Already? I've only just stopped writing Fire Dog on my checks. oy.)

Happy new year to you!

And for everyone where it isn't tomorrow yet, if you're deciding on what to have for dinner, I think it's appropriate to go out for BBQ in celebration of the last day of the fire pig.

#738 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2008, 11:43 PM:

ethan @ 575 recommended the movie Call of Cthulhu so I asked Sue to put it on her NetFlix queue. Amazingly enough, we got it within a few days and started watching it tonight. Not all the way thru though, because Sue was too tired, so we'll finish tomorrow night. Interesting. I'm not sure how accurate their recreation of a silent movie is, especially with flashbacks within flashbacks, but it's fun. I laughed out loud at the very beginning, where the usual FBI warning against videopiracy was made to look like an intertitle card, ending with a warning that criminals will have their eyes plucked out.

#739 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 12:35 AM:

#732 Mary Aileen:

[to a tune from some song by Jack Hardy]

Old spam, old spam,
Take rancid old ham
Abandoned old threads got rot.

The comments old,
Some timid, some bold,
Have now solicitations unsought.

Though once the threads were glist'ning,
Now they're gotten old,
And in the spammers' web are caught.

#740 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 12:41 AM:

Serge #738: Bwah! Somehow I missed that FBI warning. That's funny.

The structure didn't strike me as off for the style--it's not that much more complicated than The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari, say, and it is pretty directly taken from the story itself. The whole undertaking was probably more complex than it would have been had it been made at the time, but on balance I thought it was a fantastic little period piece, with some genuinely disturbing moments.

#741 ::: heresiarch from thailand ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:00 AM:

A Preliminary Survey of the Used SF Market in Southeast Asia (English Language)

Widely Available Authors:
Isaac Asimov
Iain Banks*
Iain M. Banks
Greg Bear
Ben Bova
Terry Brooks
David Eddings
Frank Herbert
Steven King*
Terry Pratchett*
Philip Pullman
J.K. Rowling*
J.R.R. Tolkien

Authors with their own label on the shelf:
Isaac Asimov
Iain Banks
Terry Pratchett*
Steven King*
"Harry Potter"*

Most Overstocked Book:

The Golem's Eye, by Jonathon Stroud (frequently labeled as "NEW AT USED PRICE")

SF Authors Most Likely to be Found in the Popular Lit Section:

Iain Banks
Terry Pratchett
Steven King

Approximate Average Publication Date: 1985

*Not actually found in the sf section.

#742 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 04:45 AM:

725: this is getting a bit close to Zombie Hamlet...

#743 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 04:49 AM:

Rikibeth @ #722:

Now there's a little voice at the back of my head muttering something about going to the rephrygerator to get some pie à la mode, and it's all your fault.

#744 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 06:59 AM:

ethan @ 740... Ah hah... I will confess that most (if not all) of my exposure to silents has been to American ones, which, if I remember correctly, had a very simple narrative structure. I liked that structure myself(*). I just wasn't sure if they did things like that in the early days. I blame my ignorance. Anyway, both Sue and I are looking forward to watching the rest of the film tonight. I wonder if they'll ever do a what-if-James-Whale-had-filmed-Lovecraft...

(*) Favorite complaint heard from the audience when Highlander came out in 1986 - "This movie has got more flash-backs than an episode of Kung Fu!"

#745 ::: Scott Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 07:03 AM:

Anonymous is on NPR...

Anonymous is on NPR...

(starts singing "It's the End of the World as We Know It..." softly to himself, while wondering how much food - and ammo - is in the pantry. Because if Anonymous has gotten to the point of widespread media attention - surely the days of zombies are close behind. :-)

#746 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 09:37 AM:

ajay @ 742... Ah yes. Hats off to you, once more.

#747 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:16 AM:

San Francisco's Castro Theater will be showing Zeffirelli's Romeo and Juliet on Feb 14, and Olivia Hussey herself will be there. Of course I had to choose flying to SF ten days later. Drat.

#748 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 01:32 PM:

Paula Lieberman (739): Good one.

I mainly want to know if I should keep flagging* the very old spam or just let it go. It's waaaaay past its sell-by date.

*in the current Open Thread, since the old threads are now closed

(apologies if this posts twice)

#749 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 02:53 PM:

Mary Aileen @732 &748:
Yes, flag it.

I'll go kill it in a few minutes.

#750 ::: James D. Macdonald ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 02:56 PM:

I'm already on it. (The spam, that is.)

#751 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:03 PM:

So I see. Thank you.

(I was about to do it, but someone short and very cute needed help getting her duvet back in place. And those extra kisses and cuddles take time, you know.)

#752 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:05 PM:

Old spam never dies.
It quietly dries.

#753 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:10 PM:

Short cute someones duvet more heavily than spam demolition, don't they?

#754 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:18 PM:

"Do, or duvet," Yoda would say.

#755 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:29 PM:

abi, James: Thanks. Did you get the one I flagged in OT99, too? If not, I'll see if I can find it again.

#756 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 03:43 PM:

Actually, it was further upthread here (comment 190). I'll go clean up.

#757 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 04:12 PM:

Ah, thanks. I'm getting my threads mixed up. Good thing I'm not trying to knit.

#758 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 04:24 PM:

re the outages: Did some more reasearch. There were six breaks, two on the same cable; close to each other.

The other four are some thousands of miles away. This raises the odds of co-incidence, but doesn't rule out enemy action.

Until they are fixed, and only if someone mentions it, we'll never know.

The average for cable breaks of this sort is 2.5 a week. It's possible this was just a statistically anomaly of normal breakage.

But I'll always wonder.

#759 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 09:41 PM:

TexAnne... Hugh Jackman will be on his way you tomorrow. I hope you enjoy the movie. (Why Paperback Hero hasn't been released on DVD in North-America mystifies me greatly.)

#760 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:00 PM:

Channel 11 News: "Next, the miracle baby tornado survivor."

Me: "Yeah, it would take a miracle to survive a baby tornado."

#761 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:10 PM:

ajay @742
725: this is getting a bit close to Zombie Hamlet...

Thanks! That thread is hysterical, and funny too! I particulary like this example:

#73 ::: Serge ::: ethan @ 70... I want to see a Julie Andrews zombie movie

"The hills (have eyes and) are alive (?) with the sound of music..."

The whole thread is fantastic. Now I will have to sing "napalm that clings/these are a few of my favorite things".

#762 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:21 PM:

Xopher #760: Channel 11 News: "Next, the miracle baby tornado survivor."

That makes it all OK!!!! Actually it makes it worth it, because now there's the heartwarming!!! The others died or lost their homes so that this one baby could happen to live and make us feel nice!! Everything happens for a reason!!!!

Ugh.

#763 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:37 PM:

Depending on just how you stress 'baby tornado', it can mean either a tornado about 4 feet high, or a tornado of babies. That second one is the scary version. Imagine being surrounded by a giant funnel of shrieking newborns!

And then they all start punching you with their tiny little fists. And headbutting you with their soft little heads. Peeing in your eyes with their teeny weenies.

Slowly, even as they die by the dozens, they bruise you to death.

I'm beginning to think I need some serious medication...because when they said 'miracle baby tornado survivor', the FIRST thing that came into my head was that whirling funnel of shrieking newborns, battering their helpless victim to death.

#764 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:40 PM:

Xopher, 763: You might have overlooked the scariest part of the babies: the diapers.

#765 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:43 PM:

The ones in my head were newborns, still trailing umbilicals. No diapers yet.

#766 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 10:53 PM:

Xopher @ 765 :

The ones in my head were newborns, still trailing umbilicals. No diapers yet.

Oh. Oh.

I suppose this says something about my deepest fears in comparison to yours, but I don't know what that could be. (And then I think of Robin Williams going on about the "part nuclear waste, part algae" substance found in his baby son's diapers. )

Trailing umbilicals, you say? Any chance these could be, y'know, Dead Babies? Zombie Baby Tornados, anyone?

#767 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 11:01 PM:

Since writing that last post, the image in my head has changed, and now features the helpless victim being wrapped in the bloody umbilicals until he's strangled, smothered, and/or crushed to death.

I think I'll buy a hand drill tomorrow. I've got to get these images out of my head.

#768 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 11:05 PM:

I've got to get these images out of my head.

Eek! Need brain bleach? Guaranteed to scrub those neurons clean, clean, clean?

Or are you planning a spot of self-trephination?

#769 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 11:08 PM:

Whatever works. I'll look for the brain-bleach aisle first, I guess. Then it's over to Home Depot.

#770 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2008, 11:31 PM:

Ginger @ 768... What is trephination? Excessive hyphenation? Me, I have très-pun-ation every day.

#771 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:05 AM:

Fragano Ledgister @ 681

hehe ... coming in late, I followed your link to a 404 page; seems like an appropriate destination for the inventor of transcendental medication ... er, meditation.

#772 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:37 AM:

As to where I've been for more than 200 posts, well, let me make a request as part of the explanation. I know that Making Light is home to many knitters, crocheters, weavers, and other textile mavens. So, if anyone of you feels especially close to the Μοῖραι, say, you know Κλωθώς email address, or you have Ἄτροπος on speeddial, please ask them to see if one of the cats has gotten into the skeins. I've had the kind of week that indicates the threads are a bit tangled just now.

Wounded in the first two days of this week: my car (stalled dead in the fast lane of the freeway during rush hour), my laptop (power adapter fried, didn't find out 'til the battery was down to 15%), the database I was working on (and, though it's been in use by manufacturing for more than a year, IS wasn't backing it up, so we're reconstructing it manually), my workstation computer (crashed, losing about half the program I was writing to trawl the database).

On the other hand: the only car the rental agency could give me on short notice while mine was in the shop was a Jaguar (see my website icon and you'll understand the attraction), the problem with my car was a broken bracket on the alternate, total cost $100 (I was figuring > $500), the laptop is still on warranty so I didn't have to pay $80 for a new power adapter.

See? Good and bad all tangled together. I blame the cats

#773 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 05:08 AM:

Bruce Cohen (StM): Boo! Although $100 for car repair would be cause enough for me to reconsider faith in pretty much any deity you could point me in the direction of.

#774 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 05:58 AM:

Trephination - drilling a hole in the skull. Done either to relieve pressure on the brain after a brain injury or infection (as seen in virtually every Patrick O'Brien book, it seems), to let the spirits in, or just for fun.

Xopher, you need help. My mental image of the baby tornado is just a sort of large-scale baby shower.

The Miracle Survivor stories always remind me of my favourite parable for cynics:

There's a flood, and one man ends up trapped on the roof of his house, praying for God to save him. And a neighbour comes by in a boat and offers him a lift. "I don't need it!" he says. "God will save me!" And then a little later, as the water keeps rising, a helicopter comes by. But he refuses to be winched up: "God will save me!" he says. Eventually, the water rises high enough to sweep him away, and he drowns.

"Why didn't you save me?" he asks God.

"Save you?" God asks, laughing. "Who do you think sent the flood?"

#775 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:31 AM:

Heresiarch #741: I am surprised at the absence of Somtow Sucharitkul from that list.

#776 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:33 AM:

Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)#771: I munged the link, sorry.

#777 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:50 AM:

Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)#772: So, overall, the cats like you?

As for the Fates, word has it that they don't answer their e-mail....

#778 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 08:55 AM:

Serge @770:

What ajay said; it's drilling a hole in the skull -- in general, you need it like you need another hole in your head. What's amazing is the early human skulls with clear evidence of trephination (aka trepanning) -- and clear evidence of healing. There's one skull I remember that had four trephine holes. Must have been someone with a lot of migraines. ;-)

#779 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:28 AM:

The Fates probably are too busy unravelling the kitten-visited skeins to care about trivialities such as email or SMS...

#780 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:45 AM:

Ginger and ajay... I knew of trepanation, but not of trephination. I've never had a hole drilled into my head, but this is one of those times when I wonder.

#781 ::: Faren Miller ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:56 AM:

Speaking of skeins.... Today's column by the San Francisco Chron's "local gossip" columnist, Leah Garchik, ends (as always) with a bit of what she calls Public Eavesdropping, in this case:

"Mom, what color is a uterus?" Young woman holding up a skein of red yarn to her mother, overheard at Imagiknit in the Castro by Aileen Arrieta

#782 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:01 AM:

Serge @ 780: Wonder?

Faren @ 781: LOL. (Based on my experience, the uterus generally is a light to moderate pink with faint white-ish striations -- but YMMV.)

#783 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:11 AM:

For those of you who wish to knit your own: Womb

#784 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:14 AM:

Good thing I pressed "refresh" -- Nancy, you beat me to it!

#785 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:17 AM:

Surely at this point someone could tie into the starting point of Open Thread C with "in utero" puns? (Not me, I don't know Latin.)

#786 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:34 AM:

Debbie @785: I think you just did..in utero, in medical terms, means "before birth". I'd say this has come full-circle and we are about to give birth to a whole new litter of puns. Not that I would have anything to do with that, of course. I'm just here for the trephination.

#787 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:35 AM:

Ginger @ 782... Grumblegrumblemutterdarnkidsmuttergrumble...

#788 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:37 AM:

That knitted womb is ADORABLE.

Why are knitted organs so unbearably cute to me?

#789 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:39 AM:

I've been thinking of adding the 1990s movie version of The Avengers to our NetFlix queue. I seem to remember that it got trashed though, but I can't remember what the problem was. Can't have been the cast.

#790 ::: ajay ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:42 AM:

780: they are synonymous. (The instrument you use is a trephine. There is one on display in the gruesome but wonderful-smelling Herb Garret and Surgical Museum in St Thomas' Hospital, London, along with a host of other things that are made of blackened metal and unnervingly hinged and spiky, and bunches of medicinal herbs drying everywhere, whence the smell.)

#791 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:46 AM:

Ginger @ 770

I think I'll keep the migraines. It's hard enough keeping stuff from oozing out of my brains and drippin all over reality; the extra holes aren't going to help.

#792 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:10 AM:

Serge #789: I loved it. Unless you have an irrational hatred of Uma Thurman or Ralph Fiennes, I suspect you will as well.

#793 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:10 AM:

And my eyes skipped over "Can't be the cast" the first time. Yeah, I think you'll enjoy it.

#794 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:23 AM:

I just can't wait - Hollywood has barely scratched the surface of 60's TV shows to mine for features. I'm eagerly anticipating the following:

My Mother The Car - Now Mom is a Charger!

Hogan's Heroes - WWII in a Nazi prison camp - and each prisoner has a super power!

#795 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:37 AM:

Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) @791 :

I think I'll keep the migraines. It's hard enough keeping stuff from oozing out of my brains and drippin all over reality; the extra holes aren't going to help.

Moi aussi -- plus the blood just never comes out of the pillowcase afterwards.

Although trephines are still in use today, for neurosurgery (shiny, not rusty and in good working order, unlike what the museum has on display). Oh, sure, you could use a drill bit or even a Dremel -- but you have to watch out for heat injury -- and there's nothing like a shiny saw-toothed trephine to get the skull out. Or is that just me?

#796 ::: R. M. Koske ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:48 AM:

#789, Serge -

I was a bit disappointed by the plot, but I can't recall now what my expectations were versus what I actually got. I seem to think that it was a bit too "zooming from one thing to another on tenuous connections" for me. But I also had never seen the original at the time and couldn't be sure they weren't re-creating some aspect of the pace/tone of the show. The style of the movie was lovely, as I recall, and I am definitely interested in the original because of it.

#797 ::: Carol Kimball ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 12:33 PM:

On drilling holes in the skull. My dad was a surgeon during the Korean war. Through some weirdness I've never understood, the guy originally in charge of the SAC hospital was whatever "Air Force" is for pharmacist's assistant, but had the rank and loved to play in the operating room, aided by an anatomy book that he'd prop up on a music stand.

A flier came in from a crash with a spinal injury. The practice at that time was to drill holes in the skull above the ears so that what looked like a big pair of ice tongs could be set in to put traction on the spine. The colonel wanted to take care of this himself but wanted some advice on how to drill - specifically, how far in did you go? Dad said that the drill had stops on it. The guy came back with an ordinary hardware-store-type drill and asked where the stops were.

What's the approved method these days?

#798 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 01:06 PM:

Carol Kimball @797 :

Now they use cranial perforators (smaller versions of the high speed drill) with built-in depth gauges, and then connect the dots with cranioblades.

In research we use hand-held trephines or a small hand-held drill set to low speed. The drills are basically the same, only the surgical "cranial perforators" have a fancy name, are powered by nitrogen or compressed air, and have smaller probes. We considered using a cranial perforator, but there was no surgical advantage to using it.

#799 ::: debcha ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 01:13 PM:

#795 (Ginger): I happened to see the trailer for last Sunday's episode of House, the one where Mira Sorvino is in Antarctica. There was a quick shot of her with her head under what looked like a drill press, and the surgeon I was watching with laughed incredulously. "You have to remove the skin first! Otherwise you'll tear off her face!" Anyone who saw the episode care to comment on what actually happened in it?

#800 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 01:30 PM:

Debcha @ 799 -

ROT13 in case someone recorded it and hasn't seen it:

Gur qevyy ovg jnf hfrq gb ober n ubyr gb eryvrir penavny cerffher pnhfrq ol fjryyvat.

Gur tvfg jnf gung fur unq n oebxra gbr gung jnf guebjvat bhg pybgf. Fur jnfa'g njner bs gur gbr orvat oebxra orpnhfr gur pbyq unq pnhfrq ure gb ybfr frafvgvivgl gb cnva. Jura fur fgevccrq sbe Ubhfr bire jropnz, fur vafvfgrq ba xrrcvat ure fbpxf ba orpnhfr ure srrg jrer pbyq, naq Ubhfr, jub jnf univat na boivbhf rzbgvbany pbaarpgvba gb gur cngvrag, yrg ure, fb ur arire fnj gur gbr hagvy ur znqr gur pbaarpgvba, nf hfhny, va gur ynfg srj zvahgrf bs gur fubj. Vg nyy raqrq jryy.

#801 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 01:38 PM:

Jura fur fgevccrq sbe Ubhfr bire jropnz, fur vafvfgrq ba xrrcvat ure fbpxf ba ..

Is it just me, or is it getting warm in here? (Apologies, can't resist, etc!)

#802 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 01:44 PM:

debcha @799 :

I saw some of that episode, but I don't recall what the resolution was (and I haven't decoded the ROT13 bit yet). When I watch House, I tend to get irritated by all the inaccuracies and turn away. Did anyone else think to themselves that South Pole crews would not hire anyone with asthma?

A drill press wouldn't surprise me, from what I've seen of other House episodes. ;-)

#803 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 01:47 PM:

ethan and R.M.Koske... Thanks. I'll go ahead and put The Avengers on our NetFlix queue. The movie will be entertaining, anyway, which is more than I can say for the late-1970s TV revival, in spite of Joanna Lumley. (One exception was the episode where Soviets sneak a missile base disguised as an island up the St.Lawrence River all the way to Toronto - and we get a riveting swanboat chase as a bonus.)

#804 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:23 PM:

Senator Arlen Specter, hard at work:

The league has sought to enforce its copyright of the Super Bowl by sending letters to churches warning them that showing the game on big-screen sets violates the league's copyright. The NFL allows sports bars to show the game on large TV sets but objects to similar viewings by other out-of-home large assemblies.

Under Specter's legislation, religious organizations that wish to show professional football games would be declared exempt.

[...]

NFL spokesman McCarthy said that as long as churches do not charge for the event and do not use televisions that exceed the 55-inch maximum size set out in the copyright act, "we have no objection to special, one-time Super Bowl parties, whether at churches or any other location."

There's a 55-inch limitation in our copyright law? I must go look this up.

#805 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:24 PM:

Ginger @ 802 -

I love House, inaccuracies or not. On the other hand, my wife can't stand it. She doesn't like the idea of them doing so many wrong diagnoses until the patient goes to the brink of death, when they finally get it right.

In the real world, a pill-popping doc like House would have been kicked out on his ass in the first show. House is a fantasy of the brilliant, anti-social geek (who still looks cool) who must be kept around because the one thing he's good at is something everyone desperately needs.

And Hugh Laurie is just freaking brilliant in his performance.

#806 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:29 PM:

Re #804: Whaddaya know...

US Code Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 110, 5,B, i, II:


(II) if the performance or display is by audiovisual means, any visual portion of the performance or display is communicated by means of a total of not more than 4 audiovisual devices, of which not more than 1 audiovisual device is located in any 1 room, and no such audiovisual device has a diagonal screen size greater than 55 inches, and any audio portion of the performance or display is communicated by means of a total of not more than 6 loudspeakers, of which not more than 4 loudspeakers are located in any 1 room or adjoining outdoor space;

#807 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:41 PM:

Ginger #795: Are you a neurosurgeon?

#808 ::: debcha ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:44 PM:

#800 (Steve C.) and #801 (Ginger): Actually, in my single-minded way, I really just wanted to know if they actually made an incision in the skin first, or if they just went straight in with the drill press (although Steve, thanks for the precis). Did they show it?

#809 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:49 PM:

Steve @ 805 -- House is a realistic character, being grumpy and in charge, although his drug issues would be a problem in real life. ;-) It's all the inaccuracies and the rushing around with this diagnosis and that treatment - that's just not how to make a diagnosis. As soon as I see them doing it, I start ranting, which annoys my partner, so I'm better off not watching.

Fragano @ 807 -- I'm a veterinarian working in neuro-ophthalmologic research. My specialty is laboratory animal medicine, and my job is to support the researchers as well as make sure the research animals are healthy. We do neurosurgery, so I've become fairly comfortable working on the brain as well as the eye. ;-) It's not rocket science, after all.

#810 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 02:55 PM:

debcha @ 808 -

Nope, no incision. They showed the drill going in, faking it with a telescoping drill bit, then a trickle of blood coming from the wound. I guess the writer thought that if you drill into wood, you don't need one, then skulls must be the same, right?

The idea of Mira Sorvino's face being ripped apart and wrapped around the drill bit does make a ghoulishly funny mental image.

#811 ::: Paula Helm Murray ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 03:06 PM:

Ajay @ #774, the other punchline to that joke is 'I sent help and you refused it. What else could I do?"

#812 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 03:15 PM:

Ajay@ #774: I always heard that story with a different ending: "I sent a boat and a helicopter!"

Kinda changes the moral....

#813 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 03:25 PM:

Ginger @ 809

Yeah, my wife and I have sworn off House because we just get so irritated by the way the scripts are set up to generate "tension" at precise times by requiring sudden life-threatening events. It's bad writing, no matter how you slice it (pun intended). And it doesn't help that House is a totally unsympathetic character (I really want the Narco squad to rush in and bust him just to get him off the screen).

As for accuracy, well, my surgical experience* was 30 years ago, so I don't have much to say about that. But I do know a little bit about lab procedure, and how a hospital works**, so there's at least one howler every week. Not worth it for me, despite how much I like Laurie's acting.

* Instrumentation tech at a med school; I assisted in surgical labs, most of them training on dogs rather than people.
** Ever notice how TV hospitals have about 5 nurses and 1 technician? And nobody pays any attention to which shift they work?

#814 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 03:40 PM:

Bruce (STM) @813:

** Ever notice how TV hospitals have about 5 nurses and 1 technician? And nobody pays any attention to which shift they work?

Oh, yes. Also, notice how the doctors do all the scut work ? That's one of the egregious errors on House; they're always running off to do an MRI (and even worse, using a CT scanner to do their "MRI") and reading the scan results and drawing blood from the patient and running it down to the lab and performing all the tests (by hand, never mind all the machinery we've got now) and..

Well, you can see that I easily slip into a rant. The unsympathetic character is the most believable part, for me; I've run into surgeons and specialists who are that grouchy and obnoxious.

One old fella -- who told me he'd been in this business as long as I've been alive, and he was correct -- took his fingers and wiped some dirt off a lens that's worth $13,000 (USD). One doesn't wipe a lens like that with one's fingers (and spit, let me not forget). One sends it to the photography lab for them to clean in their special lens-cleaning machine. Except, of course, if one is a grumpy old butt- and I shouldn't even bother to mention it.

I think I could handle a House, as long as he stopped running off to try this treatment! and that one! no, this one! wait!

It once took me at least 2 years to make a diagnosis, and it was a very tricky case indeed. I'd like to see the writers of House try THAT. ;-)

#815 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 03:42 PM:

ajay @774:

There's a flood, and one man ends up trapped on the roof of his house, praying for God to save him. And a neighbour comes by in a boat and offers him a lift. "I don't need it!" he says. "God will save me!" And then a little later, as the water keeps rising, a helicopter comes by. But he refuses to be winched up: "God will save me!" he says. Eventually, the water rises high enough to sweep him away, and he drowns.

"Why didn't you save me?" he asks God.

"Save you?" God asks, laughing. "Who do you think sent the flood?"


The way I'd heard the joke*, God said "Who did you think sent the man in the boat, and the man in the helicopter?"

A different emphasis...


*Told by the Irish comedian Dave Allen; the local PBS station used to play his show just before Doctor Who. In his buildup, he started with a man in a jeep driving through the neighborhood, warning of the coming flood and offering to give the homeowner a ride out.

#816 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 03:58 PM:

Ginger @ 814 -

Actually, saliva is used to clean stubborn spots off of very expensive optics, such as apochromatic telescope objectives. The trick is that it is done after other cleaning methods have removed all dust and dirt from the lens.

From the Astro-Physics (they make high-end refractors which are superb - I have one) website:

The way it is done here is by using the powerful enzymes found in saliva. These will remove almost any contaminant, no matter how hard they have been cemented onto the coated glass surface. The saliva is placed on a clean finger tip and each spot is carefully rubbed until it disappears. The saliva must not be allowed to dry, and after each application must be quickly wiped away with a facial tissue wetted with either alcohol or the Baader fluid. Do not rub all over the lens; rather work only on each individual spot. If the spot will not come off with gentle rubbing, do not force the issue. It may be that the dew contaminant has worked its way under the coating through a pinhole in the coating. Continued rubbing will eventually lift the coating off and change the local wavefront error in that area that has come off. This will definitely affect your image quality, whereas the original silvery spot will do nothing to the emerging wavefront.

#817 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:05 PM:

It's all Star Trek's fault. All those years of "Get me Sensor Data[TM], Mr. Spock/Geordi/Mr. Whorf/Mr. Crusher/Tuvok!" And it was there, instantly. Now all sorts of shows -- Numb3rs, 24, House, to name just three -- make zOmg technology integral to the plot. And it's not just getting the data that's intantaneous, the analysis of wildly disparate data sets (traffic patterns, insurance registry) is, too.

I can usually willingly suspend disbelief enough to enjoy a show, but these kinds of things get me muttering. Or ranting on ML. I also wonder how diligent physicians/police officers/lawyers et al. IRL are with Jane Q. Public.

#818 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:06 PM:

Steve C @ #816 :

I think this falls under the heading of "Information That Must Never -- No, Never -- Be Given Out To the Specialists/Surgeons/Doctors", or they'll immediately assume you meant they have carte blanche to clean as they see fit.

I'll be keeping my fingers to myself around those lenses, just in case. ;-)

#819 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:09 PM:

Huh..my comment is being held for moderation. Oh, well, you'll see it soon enough.

#820 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:19 PM:

Debbie, CSI and its clones are also bad offenders in OMG tech. DNA results in minutes, city-funded labs that would rival the FBI, and databases on every weird thing you can imagine ("I'll just run this sample this through our Nauguahyde database").

#821 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:30 PM:

Steve, don't get me started. Nigel on Crossing Jordan is the worst with the Naugahyde databases (great term for that sort of thing, btw), and he's so enthusiastic about it all. Sometimes I want to say, "Get a life!" But then, wanting to yell at a TV character is probably a sign that I need to get a life, yes?

#822 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 04:56 PM:

Debbie 817: I hate that crap. I couldn't watch Numb3rs after I realized they were going to use MATH to determine who the murderer was. In one episode I channel-surfed past (or maybe something ended early on PBS, as often happens), the math genius realized he'd left out an important factor, quickly redid his calculations, and realized that the police were on their way to arrest the wrong person. And this wasn't like travel times or voltages or something, this was statistical probability of being a murderer.

How I kept from vomiting I'll never know.

That sort of thing is less harmful, but no more valid, than torturing everyone and having all and only the guilty ones confess.

Steve 819: Sometimes it's not just unlikely, unaffordable, or nonexistent tech. Sometimes it's physically impossible. Blowing up a tiny photograph won't get you information that you can only store in a larger photograph; it just isn't there. They're always creating information out of thin air on those shows.

#823 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 05:42 PM:

Hey, nothing but 2s and 8s in 2day's d8!

#824 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 05:44 PM:

I got held for moderation too. I have no idea why. No urls, nothing about p3n1s 3nl4rg3m3nt, nothing like that.

#825 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:32 PM:

Debbie @ 817... Computers and databases have become the latest deus ex machina. In the old days, James Bond had to use explosive pens to open a door, now the newbies hack into the network and voilà! the door clicks open. As for databases, I don't know who maintains them. And I hope they don't use Oracle.

#826 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:45 PM:

Ginger... I gave Gregory House a lot of leeway for a long time where it comes to his approach to medicine. I lost all interest in him when I realized that he would never ever change and become human.

#827 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:46 PM:

A Stupid Forensic Trick -- probably from a CSI show -- that made me smack my forehead:

Technicians were able to date the exact model year of an unknown car from the amount of UV shielding in a shard of windshield glass.

#828 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:51 PM:

In first season Buffy(tVS), Willow was the hacker providing the deus ex machina* as needed. I got a kick how in the later seasons, she graduated to straight-up magic to get the job done.


* Serge stole it my thoughts before I finished typing them down...

#829 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 06:55 PM:

Serge stole my thoughts [..]

Saw the mistake the very moment I hit the 'Post' button (nashing teeth and growling).

#830 ::: Carol Kimball ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:09 PM:

Re: the God/flood joke

That was the surprise and point for me in the original post - that we expected it to be the joke we knew about God exasperated when his help was refused. Instead we get the OT guy with blood in His eye "because He can".

#831 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:18 PM:

Serge @824 : Hence, the modern dislike for the medical profession. ;-) Heck, the traditional dislike of arrogant doctors, and the profession's tendency towards technology over the basics, and the bias against non-doctors hasn't done them any good either.

The good doctors are nothing like House. In so many ways I won't even start trying to enumerate them. ;-)

#832 ::: polijn ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:25 PM:

@PNH Particles

Yay! Django! I'm normally just a lurker, but any refrence to Django will draw me out. I've had that first clip on myspace for more than a year now. :D

#833 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:27 PM:

Stefan @ 825: I have a cousin who was a CSI tech in NYPD. She didn't have any colorful stories about tracking down the perps by cross-checking the Naugahyde database (great term!) and the blood spatter analysis. No stories about the time when she determined the UV spectral pattern of the headlight glass and knew it had to come from a 1995 Yugo with a left shift and a low rear tire. Nothing.

#834 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:34 PM:

(Just received from my aunt.)

A guy buys a new Lexus 330. He returns to the dealer the next day, angry because he can't get the radio to work.

The salesman explained that the radio was a new voice activated model. "Watch and listen!" he says, and shouts "Nelson" to the radio.

A voice from speakers asked "Ricky or Willie?"

"Willie!" answered the salesman, and On The Road Again began playing.

The car's owner shouted "Ray Charles!", and in an instant Georgia On My Mind replaced Willie Nelson.

The customer drove away happy. "The Beatles!" he shouted as he got on the highway, and Across the Universe began playing. Seconds later a huge SUV cut him off, nearly forcing him and his new Lexus off the road. "Asshole!" he shouted after the speeding driver.

And radio began playing Hail to the Chief.


(Hey, the Firefox text-entry spell checker has "asshole" in its dictionary!")

#835 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:43 PM:

Xopher in #821:

Hey, nothing but 2s and 8s in 2day's d8!

I was going to nitpick about the zeroes, but then realized that they are probably covered by your "nothing." Somehow. Carry on.

#836 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 07:58 PM:

The wizardly figure with arcane knowledge who assists the protagonist is parodied wonderfully in Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

In this case, it's a revolutionary, transgressive master of heating/ventilation/air conditioning repair. The swashbuckling Tuttle deploys his skills on behalf of the common people, tweaking the ductwork here or installing a part there, without ever filling out a requisition form, under the very noses of the hidebound repair bureaucracy of Central Services. Then he vanishes into the night, eluding the secret police. Zorro with a screwdriver.

Okay, in this story, he's conflated with an action hero, but fundamentally Tuttle is the Person of Power. The Man Who Knows How. The one with the secret info the hero needs. I'm sure it's covered in Joseph Campbell someplace.

#837 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 08:20 PM:

Re#Spam:

We went to "Spamalot"* at Her Majesty's Theatre in Melbourne (with an additional 23 seconds not seen at the Broadway or Westend productions) last k'ni-ght. It was bloody entertaining!

*We chose not to purchase the souvenir spam offered by "Ye Olde Rippey Offey Shoppe".

#838 ::: Constance Ash ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 08:33 PM:

Databases NEVER crash. On television.

But in the library we spend more time on the phone with the database vendors than anything else. Or so it seems.

Love, C

#839 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 08:59 PM:

Rob Rusick... Serge stole my thoughts

Literally, you fool! Bwahahahah!!!

#840 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:15 PM:

Ginger #809: That sounds like amazing stuff to me. I wonder what rocket scientists say (I shall have to ask my son, the aspiring astrophysicist, whenever he actually becomes one).

#841 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:27 PM:

Serge #836: Well, now we know who General Zod really is...

#842 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:49 PM:

Soon 834: I got my boyfriend a t-shirt that said "I'm not dead yet."

He wore it to his first chemo session. The nurses got the joke.

#843 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 09:49 PM:

Ginger @ 829... Maybe TV people think their viewers want doctors who're hard-edged, unlike Marcus Welby. I guess I prefer my ficitional docs (and the real ones) to be like Bones McCoy, who know that you're not just a puzzle to solve. Did you ever watch Babylon 5? There was a first-season episode about an alien couple who show up on the station with their kid, who's obviously sick. Dr. Franklin could easily cure the kid, but his parents object, because it's against their beliefs to interfere with Nature. Against his parents's wishes, Franklin manages to treat the kid, who's quite happy not to be sick anymore, and everything is going better until he finds that the parents killed their son because he was supposed to be dead by then. Sinclair is angry with the doctor and asks him who made him God. Just as angrily Franklin shoots back that people do. They come to him and beg him to make things better and of course he can't just stand and do nothing.

#844 ::: Paula Helm Murray ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:20 PM:

A friend of mine, who had to have a hysterectomy under difficult conditions (surgery actually got it all and after all the tsuris, she didn't have to have chemo or anything) was getting annoyed at the frequent checkups.

So she marked her incision scar like a zipper and spirit-glued a zipper pull atone end before going to her appointments one time. The doctor called all staff in to 'examine the new procedure."

(She IS in a medical field herself.)

#845 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:43 PM:

Serge 840: I remember that episode, and while I agree with your point, they actually believed that any opening made in the body would cause the soul to leak out. They killed their son because they believed he had become a soulless monster after Franklin performed surgery to cure him. IIRC the son believed that, too, and didn't want to live.

#846 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 10:55 PM:

Xopher @ 842... It has been a long time since I saw that episode, to the point where I remembered the kid as wanting the treatment. I hope that this example wasn't misconstrued as being in favor of treating people - or keeping them alive - against their will.

#847 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:09 PM:

Constance Ash @ 838... Databases NEVER crash. On television.

And TV computers can be dealt with strictly thru keyboards. No need for a mouse.

#848 ::: pericat ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2008, 11:59 PM:

Serge, have you ever noticed how TV computers have graphical interfaces that would put Pixar to shame? <click> <resolve> <click> <resolve> <click> <resolve, access database, reformat instantly-returned data to really pretty font and layout> <display same, pause, revolve around 3D axis for sole purpose of showing off>

TV computers. Bah!

#849 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 12:09 AM:

pericat @ 848... Yup. And they never get buggy softwares. (Of course, that may be because they use software crated by companies that just happened to have employed Abi.)

#850 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 12:48 AM:

Xopher & Serge--I remember that episode, and my memory of it is that the family said No Surgery, it was against their religion and cultural values, the doctor may have persuaded the kid to accede to the surgery playing on persuadability and "this will be good for you and really it isn't wrong" [but I could easily be wrong about that]. He was very proud of himself, the operation was successful, the patient was recovering well.... and then the parents killed their child because for that an abomination has been perpetrated that was far, far, far worse than if their child had died, without undergoing the surgery--killing the child after was in the nature of staking a vampire, in the first season of two of Buffy, the soul's gone, there's an unholy demon monster revenant loose....

Regarding "let's hack into the computer" and such... sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not possible in any reasonable length of time. It depends on a whole lot of things.

I never saw whatever that mid-1970s movie was in which some kid hacked into Cheyenne Mountain, because I figured I would say something I shouldn't in annoyance.... yes, there were communications lines in directly into the computers, no, there was no way for someone to hack into them--they understood binary -data- to process, and there was no coding and no code in them and no storage where such things could write to, for the sorts of trojan horses and viruses and other computer infections that spread about the escaped-lab-experiment-never-designed-for-commercial-protections-against-stupidity-and-malice-and-greed-etc. Internet.... the computers in the Mountain were hardcoded to run specific sets of operations and process anything incoming as coming in in either specific predefined formats and being highly formatted messages with anything that was out of limits or failed validation checks or was otherwise improperly formatted for allowed input data or for "free text" recorded and then no further processing done--free text got sent to a printer (and the printers back then were Really Really Really stupid and large and NOISY things and did not have microprocessors in them) to spew out printed on papers...

And if something really was a noxious mess of incoming data.... one night some data came in from a radar site and a circuit board blew in the Philco 2000 computer that was running the Space Defense Center software that night--the other two machines, one was running batch processing, and the second was hosting the system software for one of the systems used more on the air surveillance and defense etc. sides rather than being loaded with orbital elements and object identification about every human-made object considered to be orbiting Terra. The circuit board frying itself corrupted the data that was coming in in the processing... A switchover occurred to the machine which had been running batch jobs, and the data fed into the switched-over-to computer. The mangled data crashed the machine... that was really the only time I can recall something of that nature happened. It did a "hard" lockup, which took hours to recover the system and getting back running from (as opposed to the first systems, requiring circuit board replacement etc. to get it back). The third machine stayed running the other software, the Command Director was not going to risk having all three of the main computer type, down (there was another system that was either primary or backup for the air etc. side of things, hosted on a completely different type and model of computer)

But anyway, there absolutely no way for someone in the outside world--or in the Mountain, for that matter, to "dial-in" and take over the machines, they weren't susceptible to e.g. self-modifying code or messages carrying viruses, or there being any software on them that would allow any incoming data to execute as opposed to the incoming data being data being "crunched" by the application software resident on the machine.

#851 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:13 AM:

Xopher #822: I couldn't watch Numb3rs...

Oh geez. I had just decided I needed to try watching that show because a) yay, math and b) it's got that guy that played Mr. Universe in Serenity, and I have a severe crush on that character (and the actor was even cute as an intense stoner in Harold and Kumar). Are you telling me I shouldn't bother?

#852 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:22 AM:

Paula Lieberman @ 850... Aren't you talking about War Games, with a very young Matthew Broderick? Of course, the movie's big computer was very advanced technology, an AI called the WOPR(*), not one of the big clunkers of the early 1980s. Thus they could dismiss all our objects in one fell swoop.

(*) I kid you not.

#853 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:25 AM:

Paula, while in general Hollywood can be counted on to do everything stupid, in this case I think you may be making overly broad assumptions about the presumed stupidities of a movie you didn't see.

While I'm sure it contained no realistic info on Cheyenne Mountain, I remember War Games as being surprisingly realistic on computer topics, unlike most "hacker" films. You might enjoy it even at this late date.

As I recall (though it's been many years) the plot didn't hinge on a virus, self-modifying code, or anything of the kind; the boy in the story ... hmmm, spoilers... fghzoyrq ba n onpx-qbbe gung unq orra cynprq vagragvbanyyl ol na vafvqr cebtenzzre, jbexrq bhg jub unq qbar vg, naq gura jbexrq bhg n yvxryl cnffjbeq sbe vg ol erfrnepuvat gur nhgube'f crefbany yvsr. Such a situation has happened again and again in the security world, sad to say.

The boy in the story also had an IMSAI S-100 system (sexy stuff for the time, and a real system rather than something Hollywood made up) and at one point uses the genuine phreaker trick of chyfr-qvnyvat bhg sebz n cnl cubar jvgu n chyfr genva cebqhprq ol tebhaqvat gur zvpebcubar ibygntr gb gur punffvf. (Or perhaps snxvat pbva qebcf fvzvyneyl; it's been a while. It was one of those things that was just ceasing to work by the time they showed it.)

It wasn't great art, but a whole lot more believable than something like Sneakers or Hackers or The Net. (Why yes, I have seen a whole lot of bad computer thrillers.)

#854 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:29 AM:

ethan @ 851... That'd be David Krumholz. Sure, Charlie does amazing things with his computer and his blackboard. But I like numb3rs, although for different reasons than you do. (Amita is cute, I must say.) How many shows are out there that make math look exciting? How many shows have situations resolved by intelligence, and not just by blowing things up?

#855 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:31 AM:

Well yes, realistic except for the small detail of a super-intelligent AI hiding undetected inside the Cheyenne mountain systems...

#856 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:35 AM:

Clifton Royston @ 855... the small detail of a super-intelligent AI hiding undetected inside the Cheyenne mountain

If you take the elevator further down, you'll find a StarGate.

#857 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:44 AM:

Serge @ 823

And I hope they don't use Oracle.

Please tell that to my IS department. That database we lost wasn't being backed up because it was MySQL, and the only thing they want to touch is Oracle.

You know what's wrong with all those shows that use Naugahyde databases? They never show the poor bastard DB maintainers hacking the rows to get the garbage data out so our hero can get back a consistent resultset that tells him who the killer is. If it weren't for them, all the audience would see is "Oracle Error 9457666: You are false data."

#858 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:57 AM:

Bruce Cohen @ 857... The really annoying thing with Oracle is that you never can be sure what performance you'll get. I recently made a change to a program that interfaced with our database. I tested against our test database, and flagged a month's worth of data since that's a good way to find inefficiencies. Everything went fine, ran fast. I deployed the change out in the real world, ran it against the prod database, run it against a month's worth of data and - the program froze. And if you fix that problem, you may stumble across yet another problem, should you flag more than one month's worth of data. Stupid thing.

#859 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:24 AM:

Speaking of fun at the office... I had a long wonderfully crappy day today. When I got out of the building, a bus was going by with an ad on the outside that said "You are here - where is your career going?"

#860 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:28 AM:

Rob Rusick@815: That station wouldn't happen to have been KTEH, would it? I caught the tail end of any number of Dave Allen at Large shows, waiting for my Doctor Who.

"Good night, thank you, and may your God go with you."

#861 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:28 AM:

Serge @ 858 .... The really annoying thing with Oracle is that you never can be sure what performance you'll get.

If you've only found one really annoying thing with Oracle, I'd love to see X-rays of a certain part of your anatomy, so I can count the horseshoes...

#862 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:30 AM:

Actual Keys for Diebold Voting Machines Made from Picture on Diebold Site.

I'm not reading today, guys. I spent too much time sitting up with Giorgio at the vet hospital today and I'm having trouble sitting up. We'll get a critical test back on Sunday and that when we'll know if he can be treated or should be let go. I keep reading the same words over and over. I'm going to take some pain meds for my back and go to bed.

#863 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:32 AM:

Marilee @ 862... My best wishes. Take care.

#864 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:35 AM:

xeger @ 861... I'd love to see X-rays of a certain part of your anatomy

Without even a dinner date first?

#865 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:36 AM:

Speaking of errors, moveable type was kind enough to complain thusly about my comment about oracle (which it did, in fact, post):

An error occurred

Rebuild failed: Renaming tempfile '/home/pnh/public_html/makinglight/archives/009852.xml.new' failed: Renaming '/home/pnh/public_html/makinglight/archives/009852.xml.new' to '/home/pnh/public_html/makinglight/archives/009852.xml' failed: No such file or directory

#866 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:43 AM:

Apropos (or not) of Patrick's ducks-with-the-bravia-music sidelight, and for anyone who doesn't know this already, one of the best things about that Jose Gonzalez song is that it's a radical reinterpretation of the original version, which is by The Knife. I prefer the original myself, but I love how successful Jose Gonzalez was at completely, completely redefining it.

The awesome video for The Knife's version (which, it only occurs to me now, seems like it may have in some way inspired the Bravia ad) is here.

#867 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:44 AM:

Marilee--Ick. I second Serge's best wishes.

#868 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:51 AM:

Oh Marilee, I'm so sorry to hear your cat friend is in such bad shape. You have my hopes and wishes that you'll get good news on the test. Hope you get a good night's sleep.

#869 ::: EClaire ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 03:06 AM:

I'll send Giorgio some mental snuggles tonight, and hope that he's not the sort of cat that is put out by such familiarity. Best of luck with the results.

#870 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:24 AM:

ethan @866:

Wow. I had no idea.

I need to send that video to two people.

1. The former colleague whom I turned onto Jose Gonzales with the Bravia ad.

2. My current colleague, who is a longboarder*. Those kids are doing longboard tricks on skateboards.

Thank you!

----
* he insists that a longboard is not just a long skateboard and that he is not a skateboarder. I haven't tried to teach him the term "skate rat" yet.

#871 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:30 AM:

Marilee @862:

Oh, dear. Best of luck. Please keep us posted.

#872 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:38 AM:

abi #870: 'Swhat I'm here for.

Is the longboard version of a skate rat a long rat?

#873 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:07 AM:

PS Just to plug The Knife, whom I love very deeply, a little bit more, here's my favorite of their many, many great videos: "Pass This On". As far as I know, it's their only video that actually features either member of the band--they're the goofy-dancing guy in the blue jacket and the angry-looking lady with the white and brown hair.

#874 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 07:40 AM:

David Goldfarb @860: That station wouldn't happen to have been KTEH, would it? I caught the tail end of any number of Dave Allen at Large shows, waiting for my Doctor Who.

In my case, it was WXXI here in Rochester. Apparently he was widely shown on PBS stations across the country; I couldn't say how often he may have been lined up prior to Doctor Who. Googling his name to verify the spelling (and hoping I might find a YouTube clip of the joke I was thinking of), I found this Metafilter thread on the occasion of his death in 2005.

#875 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 07:45 AM:

I think the worst thing about injuring yourself (say, taking about 1mm thick off your thumb knuckle with a cheese slicer) is the realisation afterwards that it could have been so much worse.

That or the shakes. Hate the shaking.

(Yes, Jim, direct pressure on a clean bandage until the bleeding stopped, then another clean bandage. Not serious enough to require medical attention. Riding the shocky feeling now.)

#876 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 08:07 AM:

abi @ 875... Ow!

Charlton Heston would have said:
"Green Goudat... It's made with people!"

#877 ::: Scott Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 08:53 AM:

Rob Rusick @ 874 -
In my case, it was WXXI here in Rochester.

Yup.

Saturday late-evenings were Dave Allen at Large at 10pm (which my mom would watch with the kids), followed by Monty Python's Flying Circus (where she would disappear off to the sewing room, as she liked Monty Python about as much as The Beatles - which is to say, not at all), followed by an entire story of Doctor Who (instead of a half-hour ep as originally shown), which mom would usually watch part of before heading off to bed.

(Later on, when we had cable, I would sometimes stay up after that and watch late-night cable, before it got to be one long arc of re-runs from earlier in the day and infomercials for things only really stupid or sleep-deprived people would buy. USA's Night Flight was a favorite, as was early MTV).

1st-gen cable baby, that's me... :-)

#878 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 09:03 AM:

Scott Taylor @ 877... 1st-gen cable baby, that's me...

Does this mean that you never experienced late-night movie-watching (à la Amazon Women on the Moon) only to suddenly wake up and finding yourself staring at a TV screen churning with static?

#879 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 09:54 AM:

Anyone around my age will surely remember turning off the B&W TV, and watching the screen contract to a little white dot as the residual charge drained off the phospors. Sometimes it would take nearly a minute for that ghost to disappear.

#880 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 09:55 AM:

Scott Taylor @877: USA's Night Flight was a favorite [..]

Mine too. I recorded a lot of odds and ends (there was a series of shorts featuring video and CG artists such as Ed Eschwiller*), but I don't have anything that plays Beta tapes anymore, and the VHS tapes got attacked by mold. Still, some of this stuff resurfaces: Quasi at the Quackadero (via YouTube).


* Did an early CG short titled Sunstone. For a bit of a tangent, Bill Griffith (Zippy the Pinhead) describes knowing him as the neighborhood beatnik. 13 year old Bill was the model for this science fiction magazine cover (link stolen from this blog).

#881 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 10:05 AM:

Steve C @ 849... Ah yes. And for more of a journey down TV memory lane, just watch the opening credits of 1964's The Outer Limits and its use of the old Indian Chief target. (Those were the unenlightened days.)

#882 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 10:08 AM:

Oops. I mean #879, not #849.

#883 ::: Scott Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 10:32 AM:

Serge @ 878 -
I remember when the sky tuned to a dead television channel did not, in fact mean "a blue not found in nature other than on some bird's plumages and certain species of flowers", but only vaguely, and more from the other direction (getting up before Saturday morning cartoons had started, or even the farm market reports), but generally didn't get to stay up to any time I wanted to until we were a cable family (we got Group W when they started carrying WSBK - and the only reason then was so mom could watch the Boston games).

Steve C @ 879 -
Yup. We didn't get a color TV until I was 10 or so, when the parental units got a used set. (folks were late adopters in this respect, and had put much of their bankroll into the house, so certain things went by the wayside - I was a teenager before we had a microwave).

Imagine my surprise and shock when I found that Spock really did have a greenish cast to him (not really - the TV's green gun was a little overly aggressive, which interacted with Nimoy's skin tone in a convenient way - but explain that to a 10 year old who has been watching Star Trek in B&W all his life).

#884 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 11:28 AM:

The US Library of Congress has put more than 10,000 photos up on Flickr.

Boy scouts

Aircraft technician

Sharpshooter

They're asking flickr folk to tag the photos. Have fun.

#885 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 11:43 AM:

In other news, Mary is putting down the crack pipe and working on learning to count AND add. US LOC has put more than 3000 photos on flickr, not 10,000. The total collection on the LOC site is apparently way, way more than that, but I haven't gone browsing there yet.

#887 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 11:49 AM:

Sorry, should have said Japanese-American, of course. I blame the crack pipe, once again.

#888 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 11:58 AM:

"This is Mary on drugs. Any questions?"

#889 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 12:09 PM:

"Star Trek" teaser
I know where I'm going to be on December 26.

#890 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 12:39 PM:

ethan 851: The nonsense math kept me from ever watching a second episode. OTOH you're talking to the guy who kept watching Stargate SG-1 to the bitter end, despite the howling math and physics wrongwrongwrongs they continued to perpetrate, and who watches Flash Gordon every week mostly because I'm hot for Eric Johnson, even though the math and physics are Hollywood on LSD, the plot is atrocious and predictable, the dialogue is stilted, and half the actors are bad all the time and all the actors are bad half the time (except Eric Johnson, who makes the crap dialogue almost believable).

So if you're watching it because an actor you like is on it, go for it. If you're watching it for the math...recoil in horror.

Marilee 862: That sounds sucky. May I put you in the thought stream for my continual White Tara (healing boddhisatva) chant?

abi 875: OWWWWWWWWwwwwww! Yipe. Same question I asked Marilee?

#891 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 12:44 PM:

Xopher @ 890... the math and physics are Hollywood on LSD

Eric Johnson's mass and physique?

#892 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 12:58 PM:

abi #875: Ouch!!! Hope you're past the shock and pain now.

#893 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:23 PM:

Serge 891: The math and physics of Flash Gordon are insupportable, but I'm reasonably sure I could support the mass and physique of Eric Johnson...and that he could support mine.

#894 ::: guthrie ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:26 PM:

Regarding Serge and Debbies comments re amazing technology.

Do people really see this modern technology as magical and omnipotent in real life as well, or is it just the way that these stories use them to achieve their necessary quick and happy satisfying ending?
I mean, can people tell that real life is not so good, but the writers put in the gizmos beause they ened them to pander to the audience?

On a related topic, I read a thriller last year. It had been reprinted, I got it from a charity shop, and it had a passing reference to the Da Vinci code (*spit*) on the cover.

It was actually published in 1982, and was a reasonable enough thriller of the time. The culture/ future shock hit me later when I realised that if the book was set nowadays, it would completely change. Early on in the book, a priest walks into a Catholic building and shoots two people. Then walks out again. No CCTV. No DNA evidence. All through the story, things happen or are done which would not happen or be done nowadays, with 25 years advances in technology and techniques.


#895 ::: Madeline Kelly ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:28 PM:

Serge #889: I was watching that trailer, not feeling at all impressed or hopeful -- and then the theme music crept in, and Leonard Nimoy's voice whispered the immortal words, and the old-fashioned sound effects did their tingly chimey thing, and--and--and why isn't it December now?

#896 ::: Kathryn from Sunnyvale ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:44 PM:

David Goldfarb @860: That station wouldn't happen to have been KTEH, would it? I caught the tail end of any number of Dave Allen at Large shows, waiting for my Doctor Who.

KTEH for me, except that we watched the whole show and then my parents turned off the TV (or changed the channel) at the end, and I'd go upstairs to read.

But I remember David Allen with joy because it was one introduction to a type of humor that I loved, rather than just liked.

But I didn't see Dr. Who afterwards. All the way through high school I read SF but rarely watched it. In retrospect it was probably a good thing, although I can't immediately say why.

Well, possibly because I didn't have much time to watch TV in early college, so it was good I didn't have the habit.

#897 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:50 PM:

Xopher #890: So if you're watching it because an actor you like is on it, go for it.

Will do!

#898 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 01:50 PM:

guthrie @894 -- hard to say. I'm going to be charitable and assume that people basically realize that the instant effects are there to move the story along. However, I also think watching hours and years and decades of TV in which 99% of problems are resolved within an hour can warp your thinking about the rest of life. It comes up with school kids (it's a hard message to get across that learning is hard work and takes time, even if you're smart), and it also comes up in relationships.

To our List of Egregious TV Sins Committed By Numb3rs, let us add the fact that Charlie and Amita and Larry and Millie ALWAYS have time and resources to spare for the FBI. (University professorships are sooooo flexible and undemanding.)

Dave Allen -- I'd totally forgotten about him. Nice memory, thanks.

#899 ::: Magenta Griffith ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:09 PM:

The problem I have with House, in addition to all the ones mentioned, is his obssession that "everyone lies". Just not true. Lying to one's doctor is usually a Bad Idea, and I think many people know that.

But, as mentioned, Hugh Laurie is *hot*, so I tend to watch if I can.

If anyone is interested in watching "War Games", it will be on Turner Classic Movies today, 2/9, at 9 pm Central time - you can do the math for your own time zone. Interesting synchronicity.

#900 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:26 PM:

Xopher @890:

I think Marilee needs it more than I, but thank you. It's only a flesh wound, but flesh wounds can be pretty frakking painful when you get them wet while bathing kids.

Soured the day, it did.

#901 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:28 PM:

Serge @ 864 ... Without even a dinner date first?

How about a launch date?

#902 ::: Clark E. Myers ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 02:40 PM:

#850 - et. al.
There was a brief window of opportunity in which any phone phreak (who knew how) could have locked any or all of the Minute Man launch systems to a hardware reset with POTS access - nothing to do with any command or control system.

There was a logic flaw in a more or less morale query if you will between sites that used commercial phone lines to say I'm still alive, at least for the next few minutes, are you?

#903 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 03:01 PM:

Marilee:

Hope this works out. Tell Giorgio we're all pulling for him. You, now, take care of yourself.

#904 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 03:02 PM:

Fragano Ledgister,#840:
I know someone who is a rocket scientist (ok, an aerospace engineer)...her stuff sounds way more intimidating than mine. ;-)

Serge, #843: I liked Bones too; you knew that gruff crusty exterior hid a soft heart and kindness. One of my favorite shows is "Mystery Diagnosis", on (IIRC) Discovery Health -- it's a real life mini-documentary series on people who have had zebras instead of horses. The old saying goes, "When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses, not zebras" (which begs the question of what African doctors and veterinarians are taught..); it means that we shouldn't think of rare diseases first. Of course, if you do have a rare disease, you need a doctor who will pay attention to your presentation and not to the textbooks. Anyway, most of the patients on this show report over and over again the tendency of bad (or mediocre) doctors to blow them off; the good ones start by listening well. Bones was a good listener.

#905 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 03:04 PM:

Paula Helm Murray @ 844:

That's a great story -- I'm sure the medical staff all got a kick out of that new procedure. :-)

#906 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 03:06 PM:

Marilee @ 862: Good luck with Giorgio. I'll keep my fingers crossed and all that.

#907 ::: Electric Landlady ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 03:07 PM:

I have just discovered TV Tropes (warning: it will Ruin Your Life), which lists the Naugahyde database as a Magical Database. Just one of the many features available on a Magical Computer.

Bruce Cohen @813: And those same hospitals, despite being incredibly shiny, seem to have no janitors at all. (Or social workers or patient advocates or...) House makes me cranky.

Really just dropped by today to mention how much this very alarming story made me think of the Clutter threads.

#908 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:02 PM:

Ginger #904: Everybody thinks the other guy's arcana are harder, I think.

#909 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:09 PM:

Madeline Kelly @ 895... As for myself, I liked the teaser. For one, things look grungy. I mean that they don't look so blasted perfect. Anyway, yes, we have to wait all those months now.

#910 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:09 PM:

Fragano @ 908: Seriously, I think one of the hardest professions is elementary school teacher -- especially the first years. Taking youngsters and teaching them to be students while stuffing their brains with all the Federally-mandated subjects and not letting them run riot while you do all that -- it's no wonder most of them never get it all quite right, and enough of them don't even try hard. To top it all off, we don't pay them enough money.


#911 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:15 PM:

xeger @ 901... How about a launch date?

Here we are, caught between a rocket and a launch pail.

#912 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:19 PM:

Fragano @908:
Everybody thinks the other guy's arcana are harder, I think.

My email informs me that that is not an insoluble problem.

#913 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:25 PM:

#907 ::: Electric Landlady #907:

I have just discovered TV Tropes (warning: it will Ruin Your Life)

ACK! There goes the rest of my day.

Reading right now: Butt Monkey

#914 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:32 PM:

Ginger @ 904... Remember in The City on the Edge of Forever, after his madness goes away? Bones realizes where and when he is, and he almost starts crying at the thought of the primitive medicine of the 1930s, and all the pain that went with it.

#915 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 04:37 PM:

Doesn't the TV show Bones have a holographic thingie that allows them, after scanning bones in, to figure out what their owner used to look like? (No, I don't know if it is entirely keyboard-operated.)

#916 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:01 PM:

Serge #909: For one, things look grungy. I mean that they don't look so blasted perfect.

So you don't mean that people are all angsty and wearing unbuttoned flannel shirts over t-shirts? Because that would be weird, for Star Trek.

I also love the teaser, have seen it four or five times, and am not embarrassed to say that I've gotten chills (and a little misty-eyed) every time.

#917 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:08 PM:

ethan @ 916.... If I didn't know any better, I'd think you're suggesting that NCC-1701's helm should be Firefly's Wasburn. And maybe Blake's Avon in charge of weaponry? That being said, what made ST-TOS work - for me anyway - was that people were not perfect. They tried to be the best that they could be, but flawless they were not.

By the way, I have this feeling that the movie is, in spite of what they said, a reboot. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Look at what they did with James Bond and... ethan... Are you still looking at James Bond?

#918 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:15 PM:

I have to say that the trailer left me completely cold.

I think I need to see more to really get excited. Like, see anything. I peered through the gloom as best I could, honest!

Teaser indeed.

#919 ::: debcha ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:23 PM:

Belated thanks to Steve C. (#810) for the info about what happened with the drill on House. And yes, I also thought the 'her face would be ripped off' comment was gruesome but amusing.

#920 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:24 PM:

abi... True, the teaser was rather dark, at least that one on YouTube. Sorry about that. The one I originally saw was on some site that Sue came across, but I can't find a link to it anymore.

#921 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:25 PM:

In other news, I saw the singer again. I rode behind her a little while on my way into work earlier this week.

She was singing again, though it was more modern, and I only heard a little of it.

I would tell her about the magic she created in my life, but she's always on her way to somewhere else*. And my Dutch isn't adequate to the task.

-----
* All the interesting people are, of course

#922 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:44 PM:

Serge @ 911 ... Here we are, caught between a rocket and a launch pail.

... on the countdown to forever?

#923 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:44 PM:

Serge @ 911 ... Here we are, caught between a rocket and a launch pail.

... on the countdown to forever?

#924 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:48 PM:

Serge, 914: Yes, I do -- it resonated for me. I also liked his "throwaway" scene in the movie, the one with the whales..damned memory banks, forgetting the titles of the good ST movies..anyway, he's walking down the hospital hallway and hands the old lady some pills? You see her later having regrown her kidneys or some such. ;-)

Now, picture Bones doing that to all the animals in the scenes, and that would be me.

#925 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:51 PM:

Serge @911:
Here we are, caught between a rocket and a launch pail.

Thank you very much indeed for not saying lunch box*. I am still to British to read that with a straight face, particularly in this context (and with a rocket in the sentence as well).

-----
* A traditional British packed lunch was a sausage and a couple of Scotch eggs. It's become a term of anatomical slang as a result.

#926 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:53 PM:

Now I'm picturing Chekhov playing with dinosaurs and laughing an evil laugh instead of plotting a course for the Neutral Zone.

Or Mal dictating an entry for the Captain's Log...

Or Inara bringing some plomeek soup for Spock..

#927 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:54 PM:

Ginger @924:
Now, picture Bones doing that to all the animals in the scenes, and that would be me.

"I'm a doctor, dammnit, not a veterinarian!"

#928 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:55 PM:

Ginger @ 924... picture Bones doing that to all the animals in the scenes, and that would be me

Hmmm... The person who wrote that sounds like somebody who should write a story about a veterinary who goes Out There and who deals with alien animals.

#929 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 05:57 PM:

Ginger @926:
Now I'm picturing Chekhov playing with dinosaurs and laughing an evil laugh instead of plotting a course for the Neutral Zone.

"Old Russian saying: I am leaf on wind."

#930 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:06 PM:

abi @ 927... "I'm a doctor, dammnit, not a veterinarian!"

I wonder if he ever did get to say that, possibly with the Horta. Not sure. I think that he then said:

"I'm a doctor, dammit, not a bricklayer!"

#931 ::: Madeline Kelly ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:09 PM:

Serge, don't misunderstand me! Having seen it all, I loved the trailer. There were chills running down the back of my neck when the theme music kicked in. But I suspect I wouldn't have loved it quite so much without the last few seconds.

#932 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:10 PM:

Serge @930:

Yes, in Devil in the Dark he wasn't a bricklayer. I don't recall that he's ever been not a vet, but I could be wrong.

#933 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:22 PM:

abi @ 932... According to Google, Bones did make a reference to bricklers in "Devil in the Dark", but he never say anything about veterinarians. Someone did on Dave Barry's blog though.

#934 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:23 PM:

Serge, 928:

Well, once you move away from Sol III inhabitants, which ones are the animals? Human medicine and veterinary medicine are mirrors of each other. I could safely operate on a human -- in an emergency -- and a physician could try the same on almost any animal (some species are more difficult than others). Alien species would be all alike in their non-terran-ness.

Still, it's a tempting storyline. For years, I've talked with a good friend who is an OB-GYN about writing something about a physician and a veterinarian, just so we can argue about who gets to treat which species. ;-)

#935 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:24 PM:

Madeline Kelly @ 931... That last bit was indeed the crowning touch.

#936 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:26 PM:

abi and Serge: Nobody ever remembers the veterinarians. Why, one of the NASA astronauts is a veterinarian, but nobody ever thinks of us when the chips are down and the ring of fire has fallen and the Empire is on the doorstep.

But I'm not bitter.

#937 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:27 PM:

A lunch box, eh, abi? The things that one learns just by... ah... hanging around the blogosphere...

#938 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:31 PM:

Ginger @ 934...

"Say, is that the ambassador from Krrukpnziiitu, or her pet?"

#939 ::: Scott Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:49 PM:

Star Trek -

Paramount has a bigger version of the trailer, as well as links to the HD versions of it. Somewhat (not much) brighter, and more detail visible in higher resolution.

Me? I'm actually looking forward to* only a handful of movies next year - "Iron Man" (Yay! Tony Stark as something other than Iron Dick, Super-Fascist), The Dark Knight, Hellboy 2, maybe the new Bond film... and Star Trek.

Because, well, damn.

*as opposed to "might buy the DVD if I see it used on the racks somewhere" - I don't like giving the MPAA money.

#940 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 06:56 PM:

Ginger @#934: I seem to recall that James White did a different story (that is, not part of the Sector General series) where a vet gets to deal with a crashed alien spaceship. I know his SG protagonists had to deal with the "patient or pet" question at least once, complicated by the point that the creature was Very Large And Upset....

#941 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 07:25 PM:

abi #912: I take it you didn't get your e-mail from a fellow named Tex.

#942 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 07:28 PM:

Ginger #910: I agree. It's a hell of a tough job.

#943 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 09:05 PM:

Electric Landlady @ 907 -

That TV Tropes site is great! Thanks for passing it along.

#944 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 09:37 PM:

abi: Ouch, you should avoid such things.

Thank you for telling us about the singer again. It took me a moment to recall, and then (without needing to go back and reread it) the wonder of it all washed over me again.

I needed that, it's being a long weekend (working) and not done, by half.

#945 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 11:29 PM:

Mary Dell @ #913:

The rest of your day? You got off lightly. When I discovered TV Tropes Wiki, it ate my entire weekend.

#946 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2008, 11:52 PM:

David @ 940: Yes, I remember that -- I've read most of the Sector General books. (One of the more haunting books I ever read was his non-SG book, The Watch Below.)

#947 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:19 AM:

Ginger @ 946... Have you ever read James White's Second Ending? It's about the last human on Earth, and how, despite that, it's not the end for humankind.

#948 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:24 AM:

Xopher, #842, there's a disability org called Not Dead Yet who oppose assisted suicide.

Serge, ethan, Clifton, EClare, abi, Xopher, joann, Ginger, thanks, Giorgio died this morning. The test showed he couldn't be saved and the assistants said he'd been cold and lethargic all night so I told them it was time to let him go. I decided not to see him first so my last memories were him trying to get out of the exam room yesterday. I'll pick up his ashes next week and a friend has already offered to make a memorial bead with some of his ashes.

abi, #875, ack! I hope that heals well.

Ginger, #904, the WashPost Health section is doing roughly one of those a week, titled Medical Mysteries. They're very interesting.

Ginger, #934, I was fascinated at how close Giogio's renal failure was to mine. He went into the hospital on 2/6, I went in for the first renal failure on 2/7/87. Both of our right kidneys are smaller, and they had him on many of the same meds I was on. The doctors told me three times that I would die in a few days and I didn't. One of my retired nephrologists used to say I was too stubborn to die, and I was hoping Giorgio would be, too. But kitties just don't know what's going on and don't understand.

#949 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:27 AM:

Marilee @ 948... You gave him a happy life.

#950 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:32 AM:

Mary Dell: Sympathies, and condolence

#951 ::: miriam beetle ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:33 AM:

serge,

A lunch box, eh, abi? The things that one learns just by... ah... hanging around the blogosphere...

it gives a whole new meaning to the chipmunks 1981 song (yes, i had the record), "lunchbox full of broken hearts."

especially the line (rot13d for extreme innuendo), "vs v pna fjnyybj guvf bar, v pna fjnyybj nalguvat."

#952 ::: miriam beetle ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:36 AM:

marilee,

oh, i'm so sorry. condolences on the loss of your friend.

#953 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:36 AM:

Xopher #842:

Hope the chemo went/is going well.

We ended up getting a souvenir playbill, the same "I'm not dead yet" t-shirt (for me) & for her, the killer bunny rabbit with fangs.

We are currently in Sydney. Next up, the Blue Mountains & the Hunter Valley.

#954 ::: EClaire ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 01:50 AM:

I'm so sorry to hear, Marilee. Sometimes I think the people who get parrots as pets have it right, since they live so much longer, but I can't imagine a parrot would be as good at keeping your feet warm at night as a cat is. And do feathers soak up tears as well as fur does when you're upset? The heartbreaks must be justified, I guess... Take care.

#955 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 02:15 AM:

miriam beetle @ 951... it gives a whole new meaning to the chipmunks 1981 song (yes, i had the record)

...and I suppose you went to see the movie. A few months ago, I was visiting my in-laws in the Bay Area and found myself spending an evening with the Chipmunks and th Power Rangers. The things that one will do to remain a 6-year-old's coolest uncle...

#956 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 02:52 AM:

The SF invention timeline in the Particles is missing a boatload of ideas from Cyrano de Bergerac circ 1650; most prominently, using rocket power for space travel.

#957 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 02:56 AM:

Ginger #926:

Yeah, but I'm having a hard time visualizing the long-running romantic tension between Bones and Scotty. (Though Kirk calling down to the engine room to say "can you fix it, little Scotty?" is kind of entertaining.)

I was a little annoyed at how Serenity handled that. Gur Fvzba/Xnlyrr ebznapr qvqa'g arrq n qrnguorq pbasrffvba xvaq bs erfbyhgvba--gurl jrer boivbhfyl ng gur cbvag bs fgnegvat n eryngvbafuvc frireny gvzrf qhevat gur frevrf, naq vg fheryl jbhyq unir fcbagnarbhfyl unccrarq tvira fbzr gvzr. Gurve vagrenpgvbaf va "Bowrpgf va Fcnpr" (ynfg rcvfbqr ba gur QIQ frg) znxr gung ernyyl pyrne. Trggvat Zny naq Vanen gbtrgure zvtug erdhver gung xvaq bs guvat (Vanen aneebjyl rfpncrq univat ure srryvatf erirnyrq va gung jnl, gunaxf gb Zny'f obarurnqrqarff, va bar rcvfbqr). Naq gur Zny/Vanen gnatyr znqr sbe gur orfg yvar bs gur zbivr, VZB--Xnlyrr'f "Lrnu, whfg nfx Vanen."

From something else you said, you may be decoding these by hand/eye, but you don't have to. Use rot13.com.


#958 ::: miriam beetle ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 03:40 AM:

serge,

...and I suppose you went to see the movie.

no. the chipmunks were a big part of my childhood (the album i mentioned earlier was "urban chipmunk", & it was literally my introduction to country&western canon. to this day, it sounds weird to hear willie nelson singing "on the road again" when i know that's alvin's song), but nostalgia can only take one so far. that movie looked reeeeally bad.

#959 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 04:07 AM:

I'm sorry, Marilee. I've buried a few cats myself, both figuratively and literally.

#960 ::: Mary Dell ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 04:16 AM:

Terry Karney @#950: I think you mean Marilee.

Marilee, my sympathies. He looks like a lovely, sweet cat...my Mirabell was also a white/siamese type and had the best personality. I'm sorry for your loss.

#961 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 04:29 AM:

Oh, Marilee, I'm so sorry.

#962 ::: ethan ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 07:21 AM:

Sorry to hear that, Marilee. My sympathies.

#963 ::: Scott Taylor ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 08:16 AM:

Marilee - condolences.
Burying our fuzzy friends is never easy. It never seems to get any easier, either.

But the times we get to spend with them make it worth it.

#964 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 11:08 AM:

Marilee:

I know you were the best cat-mother ever (still are!) So hugs and sympathies.

#965 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 11:24 AM:

Marilee @ 948 -- my condolences on your loss. It's never easy to lose a companion, even when you know it's time.

Yes, renal failure is one of those amazing similarities, although Giorgio at 17 was probably equivalent to a human of 119 years. No medicines can help when the body reaches its limits.

#966 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:15 PM:

Serge @ 947 -- I don't recall whether I've read Second Ending. I'll have to go search my collection for his books (and start re-reading them, and lose track of time, and forget what I was looking for in the first place...).

#967 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:22 PM:

Ginger @ 966... Second Ending was half of an old Ace Double. If you can't find it, I'll lend you my copy. By the way, after reading the book, I had written to White, who sent back a nice letter(*) where he said it was something of a favorite of his, or words to that effect.

(*) Which I lost. Argh!

#968 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:24 PM:

Marilee @ 948: the WashPost Health section is doing roughly one of those a week, titled Medical Mysteries. They're very interesting.

Yes, they've started doing that. I wonder if they'll end up covering the same story as the show -- I've seen the same patient on two different shows.

Most of the conditions that are "zebras" ultimately end up being hormonal; those tend to have complex presentations that confuse the doctor and are not always common. Even the more common ones can have uncommon presentations.

#969 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:28 PM:

albatross @ 957:

You can't see the long-simmering relationship between Bones and Scotty? Notice how in any scene when they're both present, they're always right next to each other? No?

We've caught up on the DVD series, and the movie is in our Netflix queue, so I'll wait to decode your comment -- but thanks for the link. I didn't have it bookmarked on this computer.

#970 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 12:32 PM:

Serge@ 967 -- I do have some old Ace Doubles, and some reissued ones too..if it's not in my collection, I'll see if the library has it before I begin the hunt through the used book stores (which used to be a favorite pastime of mine). If I get really desperate, I'll take you up on your offer. ;-)

#971 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 01:13 PM:

Marilee -- so, so sorry about Giorgio!

Re: sensors and scanners and such. Here's the real thing. While looking for something completely different*, I ran across TDMonthly, a trade site for the toy industry. They had a banner ad for the scanner. Weird times we're living in.

*metric measurements for a "Monkey Wrench" quilt patch. I have it in inches, but my ruler of choice is metric.

#972 ::: Clifton Royston ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 02:05 PM:

Re TV shows, sensors, instant data, etc.:

I forget where I read this, but I am sure I've seen that since CSI and its ilk became so popular, it's become harder to get convictions based on forensic evidence (which is usually much more solid than eyewitness evidence.)

Jurors have grown to assume that forensics should work just like they've seen on TV, where you push a button and get back an answer that indisputably names one culprit. They're not happy with answers in statistical terms, with weighing multiple pieces of evidence that point the same way, and so on. They expect the fantasy to apply in real life.

#973 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 02:43 PM:

Debbie @ 971

There are several technologies that work like that, most of them not new at all. The first Lunar Orbiter probe carried something called an Ogier Spectrometer that used similar techniques to determine the elemental content of lunar surface material from a (IIRC) 20 kilometer high orbit.

Important to remember: none of these techniquest is passive; they all require a source of (usually X) radiation to excite the material under study. That's why it works on the moon from orbit but not on Earth: air is opaque to X-rays over distances greater than a few centimeters.

#974 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 02:46 PM:

Ginger @ 970...

"Are you desperate? Contact Serge!"

#975 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 03:33 PM:

Marilee: My sympathies!

#976 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 03:45 PM:

And the new thread comes out just before Open Thread 100/C reaches 1000 messages....

#977 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 03:45 PM:

yes, I did mean Marilee:

re Zebras: I have a semi-zebra, in that it's something almost every doctor I've met (as verified ex post facto) has had questions about my condition on their boards, almost none has ever encountered it.

So it was weeks before I saw a doctor (with terrible bedside manner), who made me strip, asked me three questions, rested his fingers on my collar bones, and told me what I had.

#978 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 04:16 PM:

Bruce @973 -- very interesting, I hadn't realized how they worked. I actually think it's cool that things like this are showing up in all sorts of areas. The particular application of screening toys bemuses me (and saddens me somehow).

#979 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 06:54 PM:

Serge @ 974:

For the desperate seamstress: "Contact Tweed"

#980 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 07:18 PM:

Ginger @ 979... I think this thread needs some clothure.

#981 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 07:30 PM:

Serge @980 --

Sew, you're saying I should weave well enough alone?

#982 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 07:49 PM:

Terry 977: Is it evil and cynical of me to think that that doctor probably knew what you had right off, and just made you strip for the fun of it?

#983 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 08:06 PM:

Ginger @ 981... Knit you ask?

#984 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 08:11 PM:

Serge #979: I'll have a word with Clotho.

#985 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 08:58 PM:

Everybody, thanks. I have things and events that jump out and remind me of him, and Spirit is pretty distraught (which is odd, because she was quiet while he was in the hospital). Shiva has been very nice to her today, maybe that will work out.

Ginger, #968, my second renal failure went undiagnosed for nine months and Boodman would have taken it, but even my retired doctors weren't willing to talk against Kaiser.

#986 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 09:30 PM:

Xopher: Yes, and incorrect. A visual examination was required, and while he had a crappy manner, he was nothing; if not efficient, to the point of rudeness.

Then again, when someone at Division screwed up (later, when I was being medevacced) he apparently tore at least one Col (he was a LTC) a new one in the course of telling them they had no say in the matter, and I was leaving, and they had sure as hell best send me over to him, tout de suite.

#987 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2008, 09:58 PM:

Terry, I was mostly teasing about the doctor wanting to see you naked. But it sounds like he's a jerk AND an excellent doctor.

#988 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 05:26 AM:

Marilee, my condolences.

#989 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 09:20 AM:

Terry Karney @ 986 ... Then again, when someone at Division screwed up (later, when I was being medevacced) he apparently tore at least one Col (he was a LTC) a new one in the course of telling them they had no say in the matter, and I was leaving, and they had sure as hell best send me over to him, tout de suite.

I can't for the life of me recall where I saw it now, but I found it interesting that nurses had to be given an official rank in the (US|UK) military, due to an incredible number of problems with not being obeyed (over major, nursing/medical things). Maybe it's just me, but in general, I'd rather stay on the good side of the person that can make my stay in the hospital tent much, much less enjoyable...

#990 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 10:15 AM:

xeger: I don't know. Structurally, there's no way an army can incorporate people who don't have a place.

One of the wierder things about being in hospital was the nurses. They insisted on doing things for me. Things I thought myself perfectly capable of (such as getting out of my cot and grabbing a drink).

"No sergeant. You just tell me what you want, and I'll get it for you." This was from captains and lieutenants. It was strange.

I realise, now, that I was probably a lot more decrepeit than I thought but the inversion of the natural order of things was hard to get my mind around.

#991 ::: fidelio ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 10:35 AM:

I'm sorry to read about Giorgio, Marilee--it's a hard choice to face, but I know you've faced much worse things in life. I'm glad you still have your other furry imps to keep you company.

#992 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 10:41 AM:

Terry @ 990 ... I realise, now, that I was probably a lot more decrepeit than I thought but the inversion of the natural order of things was hard to get my mind around.

I can't recall where the quote came from[0], but something about how you don't realize how far you've come with an injury until you look back, and realize how bad you were... and have no idea how far you've yet to go, either.

[0] IIRC it was specifically about a bad concussion, but really does hold true for pretty much any sort of serious injury.

#993 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 11:29 AM:

Marilee,

so sorry to hear. I wish I had some words of comfort for you.

#994 ::: Ralph Giles ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 12:09 PM:

Soon Lee @ 953: Hope you enjoy the Blue Mountains. I had a great time there last year. Spent an afternoon hiking a loop below the Three Sisters in Katoomba. And I was glad I got to see the view that day; when I got to Blackheath the fog was so thick I couldn't see, looking up, the tops of the trees I was walking through.

There'd been a recent fire so I followed the the trail, occasional blocked off areas of charred ground fading in and out of view until I reached the lookout. Leaning over the rail there was nothing but featureless white from zenith to nadir, but the sound! The space I could hear in the echos of the rustling trees, the calling of the two crows that had followed me down from the road, I could tell it was a huge valley. In my imagination it was the perfect complement to the earlier view where I'd not noticed the sounds, distracted by white clouds on blue, receding over dappled cliffs and the peculiar blue green of a whole forest of gum.

#995 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 01:49 PM:

Serge @ 983:

Of course I knit to ask -- how else could I needle you? I don't really want to turn you into a crochety old feller, but you keep me in stitches.

#996 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 01:53 PM:

Ginger @ 995... If we keep this going, the thread will crochet'n burn.

#997 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 01:58 PM:

Serge @ 996 --
Oh, go on -- your yarns have me hooked. As long as we don't smock anyone, who'd tat on us?

#998 ::: LMB MacAlister ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 03:25 PM:

Marilee, my condolences. Having lost my share of Old Darlin's, I know how impossible it is to really prepare for it.

#999 ::: Ralph Giles ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 04:25 PM:

I'm...finita.

#1001 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 04:39 PM:

Yes, 007?

#1002 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 04:44 PM:

Ginger @ 997... All right, everybody, it's a wrap.

#1003 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 04:45 PM:

This had been SO much better as #1000...

Da mi commentarii mille
deinde centum
dein altera mille

#1004 ::: Xopher ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 04:50 PM:

Mikael: Yes, but in your position you could have quoted from Don Giovanni.

#1005 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 05:16 PM:

Xopher #1004:

But is he in Spain?

(I owe all ya'll for that beautiful perversion of Catullus.)

#1006 ::: Mikael Vejdemo Johansson ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 05:24 PM:

joann@1005:
You did see my Cthulhi Carmina up at # 183? If not, go look.

#1007 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 05:42 PM:

Mikael #1006:

Eeeww. (As it were.)

#1008 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 07:16 PM:

Serge @ 1002--

A wrap?!? I'm so hungry I could scarf a horse!! I'll settle for some cheese, as long as it's delivered by Grommet.

#1009 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2008, 09:33 PM:

Thanks, guys, I really appreciate it.

#1010 ::: Harriet Culver ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2008, 02:19 AM:

Marilee, condolences from a lurker who was thinking of you and Giorgio often over the past couple of days.

#1011 ::: Serge ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2008, 04:34 AM:

Ginger @ 1008... No more blanket statement, please. It's time to put this thread to bed.

#1012 ::: Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2008, 02:42 AM:

Rather than end with a pun, I'd like to close out this thread with my condolences to Marilee on losing a long-time companion. It doesn't matter how old they may be; it's always too soon.

#1013 ::: Marilee ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2008, 09:44 PM:

Thanks, Bruce, and everybody else. I picked up his ashes today and they'd printed "Rainbow Bridge" on a paper with a rainbow and put a paw print on it. When I got home, there was a card from them with a note from everybody who'd worked on him.

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