Carpe Diem... Fish die.

Domino
Domino
Oreo
Nabisco

Quo modo suspendent?

et Io secundus.

Me placet hoc.

I think this is pretty much all the Latin I know: Tabula materna combusta est ("my motherboard is fried").

Drat, redux, Io tertius

Ne obliviscaris: don't be oblivious.

et

En robore, virtu: Robbery is good, trees are swell

1. Qhar
2. Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff
3. Fgne Gerx
4.?
5. Fgne Jnef
6. Ybeq bs gur Evatf
7. V qba'g xabj, ohg V yvxr vg!
8. Gur Ynfg Havpbea
9. ?
10. Sversyl?

Those are lovely. I name no names.

Genug Latein, diesen Spiel zu spielen (oder ja verstehen!), habe ich nicht. Schade.

Ich werde mit Ihnen spielen vielleicht in GG* 101 (oder vielleicht CI), und mit Ihnen sprechen wenn GG C dreht sich zum Englisch um. Wenn das geschieht.

*geöffnetes Gewinde

I'm supposed to start babbling from the Latin version of "Green Eggs and Ham", or failing that dump a few lines of lorem ipsum, but I find that I can't remember either. Also, is lorem ipsum a particular work, a bit of literature in a language that happens not to exist, in which case I should call it "Lorem Ipsum?" Or is it more of a substance, one commonly found in desktop-publishing ads and the Sims?

In other news, the work crew has finished taking down the poplars in the back of the parking lot, and is now enjoying a well-earned coffee break fifty feet up on the cherry picker.

And of course, right after posting that I got #3, then #1 and #2. And I'm pretty sure I know what the last two sentences at the bottom mean.

I will come back here and try to decipher them later, since right now I do not have the time, but I will have to pause and remark on how much I appreciated the laugh from realizing you conjugated "ROT-13".

Crescit sub pondere virtus.

(Actually, it doesn't really. If that's what I think it is, I memorised it because it was the putative family motto of T.E. Lawrence's family.)

I know almost no Latin, sadly.

mjfgates, Lorem Ipsum is the much-mutated descendant of a passage from a work by Cicero, which by longstanding tradition is used by designers as placeholder text.

#2
vel
Dominos
Oreos
Nabiscos
Fig Newtons.

---
I recognize seven of the ten. Without help.

Much like xkcd, Making Light can be significantly smarter than I am. I had no idea what was going on for quite some time, and still can't do more than look at the words 'Calvinballis' and 'ROT-13ite' and grin.

To Lila's selection I add: #9 Raqre'f Tnzr. And also, regarding the same one (let the reader understand!) the number 241.

TNH @15:

I didn't realize it came from Cicero. Any idea what text?

In C.

Is it a bad sign that I was wondering why we'd be discussing something quite as specific as a new threads library for C ?

Props for some skilled blog-moderation:

Over on John Shirley's blog, Shirley is dealing with a mentally ill visitor in a most helpful, straight-forward, reasonable way.

My former boss posted the Latin motto "Carpe diem, quam minimum credulo postero" and gave its meaning as "Sieze the day and trust as little as possible to the future."

I said that it would be more in character for him if it meant, "It's a crappy day, and I believe that I have a small posterior."

Zeynep: Properly, she declined it. Verbs conjugate, nouns decline. I sent a note to S. King once, because he said his grandmother could conjugate a Latin noun on her deathbed.

I did, however, once decline BBS into the dativ, in russian. Sasha Volokh liked that a lot.

Lila: those look right to me.

Septem Arvy Tnvzna est. Et novem Befba Fpbgg Pneq.

Or are classicists banned?

I know no Latin but what I can infer from English etymological origins. So instead I shall post a sestina I wrote sometime ago:

Making Mars A Woman

This world – we came here in vitro –
Cold and dry as a coelacanth fossil,
Yet red with blood’s pigment.
In this land of winter we search for ice and snow
To force these deserts to flower
– to make this man our mother.

We search for the fossils
Of those we would supplant; maybe a trace of pigment,
Yeti tracks on Olympus snows –
Something that might be the ancestor of a flower –
Proof that this man was once a mother –
Could life be brought back in vitro ?

We paint this world with other pigments –
Blacken with mine-dust the crystalline snow.
Dig up cliffsides to plant foreign flowers.
Talk on the net to our abandoned mothers.
So many of us could only conceive in vitro,
Others leave behind space-suit fossils.

The heat of our reactors melts the salt-white snow,
Yet not enough heat to open wide these flowers –
So cold my hand, trying to mother
Germ-plasm of fauna and flora in vitro.
Wonder if our grandchildren’s grandchildren will make fossil
Imprints on a landscape where we’ve muddied up the pigments.

Radiation wilted the first surface flowers.
This is not a safe world for children; still mothers
Sing of hope from outposts in vitro.
Hope that finds order in fossils,
A hope of order in mingled and separated pigments,
A hope as bright as the fading snow.

I have looked for a way for this soil to feed mothers,
For our lives to emerge from in vitro.
To shatter without shame the dust of fossils,
Prism rust into a million variable pigments.
To bring out edelweiss from beneath the virgin snow –
Touch carelessly that second flower.

abi@19: It's a very garbled version of a passage from De Finibus - if you google "De Finibus" + "dolorem ipsum" you will find it quickly enough. It's a very nice couple of sentences, actually.

No, Terry, I think she conjugated it. She was using ROT-13 as a verb. I'm not sure of the infinitive (the Latin, friends with me she is not). Something like ROT-13er?

Terry @24:
Actually, I verbed* the noun and conjugated it. That's the plural imperative of *ROT13io, *ROT13ere, a third-conjugation i-stem verb.

----
* because I am evil

Terry, 24: No, Zeynep was correct--ROT-13 began its existence as a noun, but abi verbed it (thereby weirding the language. But in this crowd that's a feature.)

Quinquennialum by itself was enough to give away #3 to me.

Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

Drat, g got it first: #9, Raqre'f Tnzr.

I will add, mysteriously, that Abi's prediction was fulfilled.

Quinquennialum by itself was enough to give away #3 to me.

Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

Latin is all Greek to me.

Sajia Kabir @26:

Lovely! I've never dared a sestina.

"Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum sonatur."

Dammit, I knew I was making a mistake by not taking Latin in high school when I had the chance!

All I got on my own were I and III.

That's what I get for taking Attic Greek instead of classical Latin. (Not that it would have helped me, sadly--it's been so long.)

candle @25:
Classicists are welcome, of course. So are further translations of other works, into any and all languages invented and evolved.

There is one passage* that I considered and decided not to. Google "terra Mordoris" and see why.

-----
* two, actually; Patrick suggested the agnostic's prayer from Creatures of Light and Darkness, but it has too many dependent clauses. It ate my brain.

My French, Spanish and Russian (none of them real good anymore anyway) don't help worth a darn.

Will this be the last open thread or do we have a way of exceeding c?

Summer Storms (37): I did take Latin in high school, but not enough stuck to be of any real use here.

Can we get a translation into English at some point? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

Paul Duncanson @41:
do we have a way of exceeding c?

Wormholes. Warp drives. Teleportation. This is science fiction. We can do anything with a doubletalk generator and a handful of Corbomite.

Thank you, Abi. Your praise means a lot to me, as I am in awe of your ability to spin gold out of straw in mere minutes.

Ars est pecunia.

Mary Aileen @42:
The numbered passages are all Latin translations of passages from science fiction or fantasy works. I see that most of the sources have been identified in the ROT-13 entries above, to one extent or another. There is of course room for people to add precisely which bit within the work I used.

(I note that no one has guessed 4 yet.)

Most of the passages have a key word or two that can help you find out what they are. (The first one is particularly good example, and Alan Beatty @33 highlights the key word in 3.)

Feel free to baffle me back. I speak a little Spanish and a smidgen of Dutch, and can competently write simple programs in C#, Cobol and Rexx. Beyond that, though, I am open to bafflement and confusion.

7) Gur Xvaqyl Barf

Gosh. Did "barf" get onto the ROT-13 word pairs thread?

#4 maks me think of Crea, but I don't think that's right.

#1 is a favorite of members of my household, I recognized it immediately. The others took a bit of thinking, but that's what I like about things here. ML keeps my brain from getting too flabby.

abi (46): Thank you. I did figure out that much from the ensuing discussion. But I still want to know what the *words* are.

I suspect I won't be much use at baffling back. I know enough German to figure out what Xopher said in #10, but not enough to compose a coherent sentence. How about some Igpay Atinlay? ;)

Tania (48): I think you're right about Crea. At least, that was my wild guess.

One of the most amusing mis-using of latin was the "Latin" name for "Enzyte". suffragium asotus Which is gibberish.

It might be an attempt to say, suffragor asotis (aid/help to the dissipated), but it's not. Suffragium is, "vote Asotas was a loan word from the Greek ("more debauched than an asotus Cicero), as a second declension noun. It meant, sensualist, Libertine.

It's most commonly found, for us, as a stock character in Cynthia's Revels by Ben Johnson, or in the Dutch plays, such as that of the Dutch schoolmasters (e.g. Gnaephus, Macropedius). It also shows up in the German "Everyman" plays.

It's right up there with Dannon telling us they have, Bifidus regularis and that it's a special culture. Depending on where you buy the stuff, the name is different (e.g. Bifidus lactis in Canada) Dannon, in response to momre spefic queries says the strain is a proprietary strain of Bifidobacterium What's really special is the package doesn't really specify the differene, it just lists Bifidobacterium as one of the three strains of probiotic culture. Which is in lots of other foods (including some soy milks)

The evidence is, that the strain they have is tougher than most (CR reports that .1 percent of the bacteria survive the stomach), more to the point, the sales of the yogurt (which costs more to the tune of about 30 percent).

Latin, even when bastardised, it's still got punch

There's never a bad time to link to The Bible in Pig Latin. "It is my sincere hope that this work will be of value to scholars, researchers, native speakers of Pig Latin, and all those who wish to further their understanding of scripture by seeing it presented in new terms. As it is said, In-ay e-thay eginning-bay as-way e-thay Ord-way."

Sajia #26: That's lovely. I, like Abi, have never dared the sestina, and I envy your facility and felicity with it.

Dude! I am awesome! I got 1 and 4 and 9 and now feel extremely smart and moderately well-read. Even if it did take a context note (thank you, Abi. I couldn't tell there was a game at first, and couldn't tell you what it was even when I knew it was there).

#4: Naar ZpPnsserl, Qentbafvatre, "Gur yvggyr dhrra nyy tbyqra / syrj uvffvat ng gur frn / gb fgbc rnpu jnir / ure pyhgpu gb fnir / fur iragherq oeniryl."

Rather, I got the first two lines. My key was the second.

C... Let's see...

Greetings. I am the Count. Do you know why they call me the Count? Because I love to count things!... One! Two! Three! Bwahahahah!!!

Abi, I'm curious as to why 'Inane' (which, if I read it correctly, means 'the empty') and not 'Infinitum'?

4. (community effort) Qentbafbat rgp

abi 43: There's also C+, and C++.

And though it's partially spoiled already, I'll add a line from the Monk's aria in "Hansel and Gretel and Ted and Alice" by PDQ Bach: "Caveat Nabisco Mausoleum."

And throw in
"Kriste!
Kriste!
Jesu H. Kriste!"
(Missa Hilarious) for free.

Serge #45:

That reminds me of Punch's celebrated comment on the death of a young man named John Henry Longbottom: Vita summa brevis, ars longa.

Fragano @56:
It depends on your view of the thing, really. I see it as a vast emptiness, emphasis on the emptiness. Someone who sees it as more vast than empty might go for "Infinitum".

Pax britannicus habeus corpus
Rex non potest peccare
Quid pro quo post haste quo vadis
Status quo hip hip hooray!

Diatryma @ #54: Yes! D'oh. ::slaps forehead:: Thank you. That totally explains why I kept reading line four with a cadence. I wasn't even thinking of that book.

Yes, yes you are awesome!

Also, I'm surprised nobody seems to have mentioned that old favourite Sic transit gloria mundi, which of course means "My sister threw up on the bus earlier this week".

So all but Patrick's addenda have been guessed, and guessed correctly. (Well done getting 4 - I didn't ROT-13 "Crea" and didn't realize anyone was on the track of it when I posted earlier.)

Any one want to assemble a list including which passage for ease of looking up?

I'm going to bed. Have fun, guys. Happy 100th Open Thread.

A unicef clearisil!

No, let's stop.

1. gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne, sebz Qhar
2. gur gvghyne cbrz sebz Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff
3. gur Fgne Gerx vageb
4. bar bs Zrabyyl'f fbatf sebz Qentbafbat (Gur yvggyr dhrra nyy tbyqra / syrj uvffvat ng gur frn)
5. "Gur Sbepr tvirf gur Wrv gurve cbjre..." sebz Fgne Jnef, boi.
6. "Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Rire Ba" (Ovyob'f irefvba sebz gur Ybat-Rkcrpgrq Cnegl)
7. "Vg vf nyjnlf gur cerebtngvir bs puvyqera naq unys-jvgf gb cbvag bhg gung gur rzcrebe unf ab pybgurf..." Qernz, sebz Fnaqzna
8. gur bar guvat urer V unira'g ernq; zl Yngva-ungvat ebbzzngr gryyf zr vg'f sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea (juvpu V fgnegrq bapr, gjb lrnef ntb, naq unq gb chg qbja unysjnl guebhtu orsber V guerj vg npebff gur ebbz; gur pbafgnag, ivbyrag ertvfgre fuvsgf veevgngrq gur uryy bhg bs zr.)
9. "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja," sebz Raqre'f Tnzr
10. "Ybir. Lbh pna xabj nyy gur zngu va gur 'Irefr..." sebz gur raq bs Freravgl.

Fragano @ 59... That it is. And even though I forgot almost all of the Latin I learned in high-school, I figured it out mostly because my native tongue is French.

abi #60: Okay. I just wondered. To me, it's the vastness that outweighs, as it were, the emptiness.

xeger (#21): It proves you're a geek. In this crowd, that's no reason for demerits.

Serge (#55): The Count demonstrates that the censored version of something can be racier than the unexpurgated one.

Serge at 55: this is Count-themed hilarity, based on our own assumptions of wrongness.

I enjoy Sesame Street so much more now than when I was its target audience. Putative target audience, anyway.

Drat it, Christopher Davies, it took me three tries to get that link right.

Zeynep: Mea culpa, I jumped to soon, and saw merely a noun in the Enlglish.

abi: You should have put the Agnostic Prayer into Russian, where dependent clauses are don't eat one's braind (because the declensional problems start afresh, каториы is your friend.

I just did some strange transforming.

I ROT-13d the text at 25, then I goofed the transformation back... leeting it, and then I ROT to Latined the Leeted text, resulting in:

Se(6em |\|31| 641z4a es6. E6 481em ()e50a 5(077 (4eq.

Serge #67: But did you get the, ahem, paronomasia obvious to those whose native speech is the tongue spoken (and written) on a certain island on the northeastern side of the Atlantic?

Evelyn Browne (66): Thanks for the translations! I hadn't realized it was actual quotes; I thought abi was writing poetry (sometimes) and making clever references in Latin.

So what's so good about New York?

A couple of our friends and their daughters (one kindergarten, one babe in arms) have just uprooted themselves from Melbourne (Australia) to New York. It's a really exciting career move for her, and an adventure for all of them - but their feet have only just touched the ground, and already they long for Vic Market (http://tinyurl.com/2nrwr4, http://tinyurl.com/2sg5vy).

I know at least Patrick and Teresa are New Yorkers, and I suspect there are many more. Any advice for a young Australian family on how to enjoy New York?

Amabo te, spectavi unum errorem exiguum. necesse est scribere
" 1) ne . . . iacias/ieceris
2) ne stes/steteris"

seu liceat "noli iacere" et "noli stare."

Fragano @56 and abi @60 "Inane" is Lucretius' favorite word for the void, so I think it's a great choice.

Sadly, I am insufficiently well read to identify more than two or three.

And I didn't know the author of Patrick's additions, but Google informs me it's Yneel Avira-- "Arire guebj fuvg ng na nezrq zna" naq "Arire fgnaq arkg gb fbzrbar guebjvat fuvg ng na nezrq zna."

Christopher Davis @ 69... Diatryma @ 70... I guess we'll never see that version on Sesame Street. By thew ay, Christopher, wasn't your post's number very à propos?

Fragano @ 74... Of course I did. I was raised as a Catholic after all, but I thought I'd keep my earlier response within the domain of the tasteful.

Well, Google indexes ROT-13ed and disemvoweled words these days; that's a real 21st Century Moment kind of thing, at least to me....

Before I gave up and looked at Evelyn's list, I managed to identify 1, 3, 5, and 6. I also was able to guess which work 2 and 10 came from, though I have not experienced either work ('Versi is really very distinctive).

I have not read 7; I have read 4 and 8, but don't retain much in the way of direct wording; I might have got 9 eventually, except that I went down a blind alley by translating "Portus" as "Door" (and vaguely wondered if it was something from Neverwhere).

I'm glad that's settled. Maybe now I can get some work done. :)

I picked up 1 on cognates and decided not to enlist my Latin-studying daughter's help to try the rest. I had maybe one semester of Latin, many years of French, and one of my prize possessions is a black camisole with a gravestone death's-head and the motto "Memento Te Esse Mortalum." It's always fun to wear it out dancing and see if the people admiring it can translate it, or tell me where the phrase came from.

abi @ 46

Well, I wasn't going to say, but it ought to be pretty clear from the first line ... with a dictionary, possibly.

Come on, 'reginula' with 'aurea' ought to be obvious: Qentbafvatre

Steve Taylor #76, advice for new New Yorkers:

One thing they'll need to do is familiarize themselves with the subway system. It's the city's circulatory system, a way of getting to just about any of the city's interesting places quickly and without having to worry about where to park. MTA.info is the official site for the subway, buses, and commuter trains.

Free maps (one train map with the whole subway system on one side, and the commuter trains to Long Island and upstate on the other; five bus maps covering the five boros) can be found at most subway stations and on many buses -- ask the driver or token booth clerk.

I meant to add that since I only recognized 2 (#s 3 & 8) and even after cheating don't recognize many more I'd be happy to translate them back into English after a suitable interval--for purposes of further hilarity.

Timete... timete maxime.

That's about the extent of my Latin, beyond "Spectate Phoeniciam pulchram" which sounds like a travel brochure for Phoenicia to me.

Most of my Latin is hymns, of course. My favorite line is "Mortis portis fractis fortis." And then there's "Omnis mundus jocundetur." "Jocundetur" is such a lovely word.

Steve at #76: Your friends will want to check out the Greenmarkets - more info at http://www.cenyc.org/greenmarket - which will probably help with missing the market you refer to.

I'd also recommend checking out the magazine Time Out New York, found at newstands everywhere. Comes out on Thursdays, and is the most comprehensive listing of what's happening where. They also publish a quarterly Time Out Kids, which I bet your friends would find helpful.

They might also consider Forgotten NY, which is both a book and a website, and covers all aspects of our mostly paved-over history. My favorite tidbit is the saw marks on the fence in Bowling Green, from when a mob inspired by the first reading of the Declaration of Independence sawed the crowns off the fenceposts.

And if they get really homesick, I expect a visit to the Sunburnt Cow would probably help. =)

Well, I'm glad I gave up and looked at the ROT13s. I had correctly guessed all the ones I'd recognize even in English.

Threads like this remind me that I don't really belong on this blog.

I'm feeling all inferior too.

Abi,

Te amo.

Prima narratio feminis Oror Trffrevg est.

What? But, but... but you do!
(you have activated the Emergency Response to Potential Self-Pity and/or Exclusion from Group. Please stand by while we initiate Reminders of Value and Belonginghood.)

I like it when the posts are smarter than I am. Your comments are often smarter than I am-- 'smarter' in this case includes 'I do not know that, and I do not know the context in which it would be useful to me, but *damn* that is interesting, and I would like to see it continued'.

Why, Susan?

Susan,

I figure that even if I don't belong here, I'm going to wait for someone (Teresa) to kick me out.

We all geek out on different things; I have always been impressed with your dance knowledge!

For 9, I'd've gone with porta, rather than portus, which is "harbor" according to my dictionary.

C is for Cookie
It's good enough for me!
C is for Cookie
It's good enough for me!
C is for Cookie
It's good enough for me!
Cookie, Cookie, Cookie starts with C!

I was surprised that, despite the earlier Sesame Street references, no one had yet provided this lovely ditty.

C is for Cassie, and cookies are for me.

I learned it as 'cookies are for me' even before I realized I could swap my own name in. It's funnier that way.

Nancy at 96: Yes, "gate" is porta. Also, deorsum is "down" as in downwards, or underneath. It's been a while since I read Raqre'f Tnzr, but if "is down" equates to "has fallen," something like casa est would fit the bill. (That's cāsa the past participle of cadere, not the noun meaning "house" which is all short a's.) So (maybe) Porta hostium casa est is a closer equivalent to #9.

None of this is to take away from abi's efforts, which I envy.

Hundredth comment!

(Sorry, had to.)

Oh, sure. I literally just finish throwing out my old Latin notebooks from high school, and then I come here and get a big ol' slap upside the head. :P

Semper ubi sub ubi.

So there.

Steve: Not a New Yorker, but our daughter is, and we visited her a lot when we lived in NJ.

Yes, getting familiar with the subway system is essential. After that, a lot depends on their interests. New York has, pretty nearly, something for everyone. The older girl is about a year younger than my grandson, so I can tell you a couple of places he likes.

* The American Museum of Natural History is a terrific place, where kids can run freely amongst dinosaurs and meteorites and coral reefs and much, much more.

* The Children's Museum of Manhattan, right near there, is even better, with many, many fun things to do for both kids, and lots of organized activities.

* Sticking with that same neighborhood, there's Fairway and Citarella for upscale grocery shopping with enormous variety. And don't forget Zabar's deli. (Don't want to overload on links... these are all in Google.)

But, really, there's great stuff all over NYC. And half the fun is discovering it yourself, so if I had just one word of advice to your friends, it would be: Explore.

About the only Latin I know seems appropriate for those of who are feeling inferior at the moment. It's strong language which shouldn't be taken personally by anyone:

Illegitimi non Carborundum.

Chris @99: Your clarification shows why xkcd's joke on this subject would not work in latin (to clarify my comment on your clarification: In the work itself, the meaning for deorsum you give is what is meant (it's a zero-g exercise). The xkcd comic in question would properly use casa est (there's a technical failure).

Argh. I know no Latin only cognates, which can be infuriatingly misleading, and seeing the solutions, it turns out I haven't actually read all the sources anyways. I'm proud of those I did get.

Hey, I'm putting up a display in the store of classic mid-century fantasy beyond Tolkien. Any favorites that you folks think should be included? There are nice new editions of Porius and the Gormenghast books that settled me on this theme.

Oh, and as for advice for new residents of new amsterdam, I would suggest walking around a bit to orient yourselves. The subway drops you off in so many different neighborhoods without giving you any context.
Strange. Now that I think about it I have so many hyper-specific recommendations, but very few general ones that wouldn't apply to any city.

Susan @91, Xopher @92: Yeah, the Latin goes over my head, too. Then again, I get most of the engineer humor in XKCD, and a lot of people don't, so it balances out. Spend enough time around lots of really smart people, and you discover that there's always *someone* smarter than you at any given field of activity. (And you're probably in turn someone else's "someone who's smarter than me at X", though you may not know it.)

CENTURION:
What's this, then? 'Romanes Eunt Domus'? 'People called Romanes they go the house'?
BRIAN:
It-- it says, 'Romans, go home'.

CENTURION:
No, it doesn't. What's Latin for 'Roman'? Come on!
BRIAN:
Aah!
CENTURION:
Come on!
BRIAN:
'R-- Romanus'?
CENTURION:
Goes like...?
BRIAN:
'Annus'?
CENTURION:
Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
BRIAN:
Eh. 'Anni'?
CENTURION:
'Romani'. 'Eunt'? What is 'eunt'?
BRIAN:
'Go'. Let--
CENTURION:
Conjugate the verb 'to go'.
BRIAN:
Uh. 'Ire'. Uh, 'eo'. 'Is'. 'It'. 'Imus'. 'Itis'. 'Eunt'.
CENTURION:
So 'eunt' is...?
BRIAN:
Ah, huh, third person plural, uh, present indicative. Uh, 'they go'.
CENTURION:
But 'Romans, go home' is an order, so you must use the...?
BRIAN:
The... imperative!
CENTURION:
Which is...?
BRIAN:
Umm! Oh. Oh. Um, 'i'. 'I'!
CENTURION:
How many Romans?
BRIAN:
Ah! 'I'-- Plural. Plural. 'Ite'. 'Ite'.
CENTURION:
'Ite'.
BRIAN:
Ah. Eh.
CENTURION:
'Domus'?
BRIAN:
Eh.
CENTURION:
Nominative?
BRIAN:
Oh.
CENTURION:
'Go home'? This is motion towards. Isn't it, boy?
BRIAN:
Ah. Ah, dative, sir! Ahh! No, not dative! Not the dative, sir! No! Ah! Oh, the... accusative! Accusative! Ah! 'Domum', sir! 'Ad domum'! Ah! Oooh! Ah!
CENTURION:
Except that 'domus' takes the...?
BRIAN:
The locative, sir!
CENTURION:
Which is...?!
BRIAN:
'Domum'.
CENTURION:
'Domum'.
BRIAN:
Aaah! Ah.
CENTURION:
'Um'. Understand?
BRIAN:
Yes, sir.
CENTURION:
Now, write it out a hundred times.
BRIAN:
Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
CENTURION:
Hail Caesar. If it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
BRIAN:
Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar and everything, sir! Oh. Mmm!

Some more (probably WAY too simple for the classicists) here:

I: Quando nos ... duae ... reconveniemus?

II: Ira inferni fervet in corde meo, mors et abiectio circa me flagrant!

III:
Edi
Pruni
Quae erant
In cistula glacei

Quaeque
Probabiliter
Reservas
Ientaculo

Remitte me
Delicata erant
Tam dulcia
Tam frigida

Apologies for leaving the genres we started in.

Mikael @108:

Fantastic. Particularly that third one.

dido @86:
I'd be happy to translate them back into English after a suitable interval--for purposes of further hilarity.

A fantastic notion, and great fun. It will, of course, expose the significant weaknesses in my translations, but that's fine by me.

It's not like I'm being graded on this.

スゼん　＠９１、クリストファ　＠９２、唯一の解決はあなたが知っている言語で答えるべきである。

Delirant isti Romani.

I am distressed almost beyond measure that I may have put people off with this piece of obsessive silliness. My Classics geekery is no more or less significant than physics geekery, dance geekery, or computer geekery.

When I first came to Making Light, not many years ago at all, I knew myself to be insignificant, even inaudible. Things I would say to no reaction would be restated by others and get responses. For a while, it was off-putting. But then I found it a kind of freedom. It was my chance to experiment, to play around. To be my kind of geek.

And look where that got me.

Please don't feel out of place. We all define what this place is, so no one here - by definition - can be out of it.

I can recognize most of these...I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but here's the ones I know (ROT13'd, as per request)

1. Gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne sebz gur Qhar obbxf.

2. Gur cbrz ol Hefhyn Yr Thva sebz juvpu Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff gnxrf vgf gvgyr.

3. Gur bcravat zbabybthr sebz "Fgne Gerx" naq/be "Fgne Gerx: GAT".

4. I can more or less translate this one: Gur yvggyr tbyqra dhrra syrj uvffvat ng gur frn gb ubyq onpx gur jnirf naq fnir ure rtt. Fur qvq gurfr guvatf oeniryl. I just don't recognize it.

5. This one took quite a bit of thought and study to recognize. Vg'f Ora Xrabov'f qvfdhvfvgvba ba gur Sbepr: "...vg fheebhaqf hf naq crargengrf hf, vg ovaqf gur tnynkl gbtrgure."

6. Gbyxvra'f "Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba".

7. Shouldn't that be "puerorum" rather than "puerum"? "Vg vf gur evtug bs oblf naq sbbyf gb fnl gung gur rzcrebe unf ab pybgurf. Ohg gur sbbyf erznva sbbyf naq gur rzcrebe erznvaf na rzcrebe." Gurer'f n dhbgr n ovg yvxr gung va Fnaqzna, ohg V qba'g guvax vg'f rknpgyl gung.

8. Gur havpbea-uhagvat fbat sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea.

9. Raqre'f Tnzr: "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja."

10. Don't recognize this one and even am having a hard time reading it. The "'Versi" makes me think it might be a quote from Serenity....

Patrick's addition is gjb bs Avira'f Ynjf.

NelC@111: I think you're offering to translate for Susan and Xopher? I've forgotten pretty much all the kanji I ever knew....(and I don't think I was ever taught the "...de aru" construction.)

Abi #113- hear hear. People tend to think of computer geekery, but there are lots more kinds out there, and this should be more widely known.

Terry Karney @ #24: Verbs conjugate, nouns decline.

Which is why verbs are more likely to get invited to fashionable parties?

Mikael @ #108:

You probably couldn't hear it from over there, but the third one made me break into applause.

The first one is also neat. (And so, inductively, must the second one be; but I'm afraid I don't recognise it.)

Paul @ 118: for II you'll want to think opera.

And thank you for the ovation. It's a morning of procrastination well spent if I can impress even parts of the crowd here.

abi -- I'm distressed that you're distressed! My quip was copied from the souvenir pencil I bought at the Archaeological Park in Xanten*. Although I never took Latin**, it's loads of fun seeing what others do with it.

*Xanten isn't too far from you, if you want a Roman/Latin fix. On your side of the border, there's a lot of Roman history in Nijmegen. And Arnhem is also close. It has a fantastic zoo, with a great playground, as well as a good open-air museum. (I'm a sucker for those.)
**For Latin substitute computer science, biochemistry, Chinese...............

Mikael @ 108

1 Jura jvyy jr ... gjb ... zrrg ntnva - Greel Cengpurgg'f jvgpurf. V guvax sebz Ybeqf naq Ynqvrf?

2 I don't recognise this but my best stab would be something like natre oheaf va zl urneg yvxr sver, qrngu naq zvfrel rapvepyr zr, which is probably nothing like it - I last did latin about 35 years ago.

3 I think is obvious just from the line length. I love cistula glacei for ersevqtrengbe though. I know the Vatican have a list of modern terms in Latin, is it from there or an original coining?

David Goldfarb @ #114: 3. Gur bcravat zbabybthr sebz "Fgne Gerx" naq/be "Fgne Gerx: GAT".

Definitely "Fgne Gerx". As people have said, 'quinquennialum' is the giveaway; for "Fgne Gerx: GAT" it would be, um, (rustling of dictionary pages) 'perseverans'?

Andy @ 121:
I. spot on.
II. you have your verbs kinda mixed up. The oheavat only occurs in the second of two clauses.
III. the version I saw on the web had vprobk; which made the translation to cistula glacei more obvious than with ersevqtrengbe.

Susan (especially) - don't worry. For one thing, even though I could translate most of the Latin, I had a hard time recognising most of them. (In one case, demonstrating to myself the uselessness of googling for "Little Golden Queen"...) And for another, even though I'm supposed to be a proper classicist, my Latin (especially composition) is nowhere near the standard of plenty of people on this blog, many of whom know more dead languages than me anyhow.

Somehow I have to keep learning the lesson that there is always likely to be someone around who knows more than you about any given thing - and that this is an opportunity rather than a problem!

Hmm, didn't mean to preach there. It's just that I constantly forget that this is precisely why I like Making Light.

Ps: Mikael: I'm very impressed that you made III go into Latin so well. I love the run of single words in the middle. Perhaps WCW should have written in Latin in the first place. Perhaps he did.

Abi @ 113... Classics geekery is no more or less significant than physics geekery, dance geekery, or computer geekery.

You forgot poetry geekery - and that rhymes too. Say, is there such a thing as pun geekery? According to the movie Ridicule, puns are the death of wit.

Pun geekery can be identified by the tendency to cluster together in a park, exchanging puns, rather than chilling out on the grass.

Yes, the pun is matey-er than the sward.

candle @124:
my Latin (especially composition) is nowhere near the standard of plenty of people on this blog

I hope you're not referring to me there. This post took about a week of subjecting Messrs Lewis, Short, Allen and Greenough to some enhanced interrogation techniques, and I still forgot that puer is second declension.

One day Professor Griffith* is going to track this blog down and flunk me.

-----
* Latin Prose Composition, UC Berkeley, spring semester of 1990. I got a B+.

Serge @125:
puns are the death of wit.

Some would say puns show a dearth of wit, but I don't agree.

dido #77: Far be it from me to contradict either the Queen of Carthage or the immortal author of On The Nature of Things.

Debbie @120:
I didn't think you were feeling distressed, but several other people seem to be.

And thanks for the tip about Arnhem - summer trips beckon!

Abi @ 128... The movie was quoting Voltaire. The latter probably was jealous because he couldn't come up with any puns. So would say Seamus Zelazny Harper.

I am surprised at both how much and how little I recognize - I got one, three and ten, but the rest are mystifying me.

However, I'm not sure how much of that is due to it being 7 A.M. or due to my being a very poor sort of geek. But at last, twelve years of Latin are useful!

Forsan, et haec olim meminisse iuvabit.

Mikael #108: I'm certain that Guilliemus Carolus Guilliemus would have loved your number 3.

abi #113: I don't see why you're distressed. I'm no Latininst, but I found this amusing and pleasant. I was deeply impressed by the effort you put into it, and how deftly it was done.

Vivat Abi!

Allan Beatty @ #31: Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

An unaccountable omission. I was going to offer to remedy the lack, but on reflection I think it's a job for somebody who'll get the word endings right.

Instead, here's something that I briefly thought abi's #10 might be:

Matrimonium. Matrimonium esse quae conciliare nobis hodie. Matrimonium, illa compositionis beatum, illa somnium intus somnium. Et amor, amor verum, semper exequor. Ita amor colere.

(I apologise for the errors I'm certain that paragraph contains; the best dictionaries in the world, even assuming that's what I used, would not make up for the fact that I never studied Latin. Scholars, console yourselves with the reflection that if I'd also attempted to ersyrpg gur fcrnxre'f yvfc it would have been much, much worse.)

Latin never really leaves one - I was rather pleased to discover that I'd identified all the ones I had actually read. But shouldn't the word order in V be really, really strange? (Q: how would one display this sort of oddity in Latin, anyway? Perhaps the speaker should always talk in the subjunctive?)

ajay @ #136: But shouldn't the word order in V be really, really strange?

No, because it's Ora Xrabov, not Znfgre Lbqn.

(But "How best to represent the odd speech of Znfgre Lbqn in Latin?" is still an interesting question, though not one I feel qualified to comment on.)

I do love this place, and all the people who do read and write hereupon. My years of French tipped me to a couple o' these, but the whole tenor of the game just has me beaming from ear to ear, and eager for real morning to come, so I can show it to my Latin scholar sweetie who lies gently snoring in the next room.

Susan (91), Xopher (92), of course you belong here! Gvzrf jura jr'er gnyxvat nobhg fbzrguvat lbh xabj jryy naq bguref ner oynax ba, lbh qba'g guvax "Uzzzzs, gurl boivbhfyl qba'g orybat urer," qb lbh? Bs pbhefr abg. Lbh fnl "Bu, urer, guvf vf arng, yrg zr rkcynva vg ..." Fb jul ner lbh zbegvslvat lbhefryirf abj? Vg'f fb mundane, vs lbh'yy rkphfr zl fnlvat fb.

I thought Diatryma (54) had exactly the right reaction to this kind of game:

Dude! I am awesome! I got 1 and 4 and 9 and now feel extremely smart and moderately well-read."

Abi @ 128... Speaking of deaths and dearths... Did I ever tell what I saw 22 years and one week ago, when Sue and I moved from Toronto to California? As we were driving along I-80, we saw a sign (in Utah?) that pointed to a ranch off the road, a place called the Deeth Starr Valley. I kid you not.

It turns out I got 9 wrong-- I saw 'port*' and thought, "Oh, yeah, if I were putting this together, I'd definitely include a dilating door."

And I had my own made-up tune for 4 going through my head pretty solidly all last night.

Deeth Starr Valley

Niall @ 142... Noticed the exit number? That was rather ominous. Or maybe half ominous.

Sicut Deus Dominus
in campo pleno ossibus
Anglemittus Circumservus
gentem nomine Jonis
creavit ...

(Gratias ago tibi, Abi, for fixing two bits of grammar and subtracting a superfluous pronoun.)

Paul A. @ #117

in re: "Verbs conjugate; nouns decline."

The nouns get invited. They just turn down the invite.

The verbs get invited, but they do tend to behave somewhat shockingly.

And, all, my only contribution to the Latinate foolery this morning is to point you to Yarn Harlot's post in praise of every writer's favorite Latin term, "STET."

http://www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/

137: Oh, of course. (How embarrassing to make that mistake. Time for a session with the Agnoizer, I'm afraid.)

On a vaguely related topic, about the only bit of "Captain Corelli's Mandolin" I actually liked was the author's decision to represent the British SBS man's speaking ancient Greek to the islanders as Chaucerian English.

(I hope that an open thread is the least-wrong place for this bit of meta...)

I posted a comment (with six URLs) on Why, this is the whale, nor are we out of it three days ago. It's shown up on my comment list page, but not in the thread in question. Did I hit some sort of moderation, or a glitch, or is there something else I ought to be doing?

BSD at 104: Like I said, long time since I read it and I never remember stuff like that.

Here's something I do remember:

Denique bracchium meum denuo completum est!

mjfgates @11, I cannot but help thinking of Binsey Poplars when I read your final paragraph

…
All felled, felled, are all felled;
    Of a fresh and following folded rank
        Not spared, not one
        That dandled a sandalled
    Shadow that swam or sank
…

Rikibeth @83, is "Memento Te Esse Mortalum" what his companion whispered to the triumphant one?

Nancy @93, do you mean Orar Trffrevg?

˙ǝɹɐɥs ʇsnɯ ı ʇlǝɟ ı 'sıɥʇ ʇnoqɐ pɹɐǝɥ ʇsnɾ ı ǝɔuıs ʇnq 'ʍouʞ ı 'ʇou ʎlqɐqoɹd

¿31-ʇoɹ uı uɐɥʇ ɹǝɥʇɐɹ uʍop ǝpısdn sɹǝʍsuɐ ʇsod oʇ ǝlqɐ ǝq oʇ lnɟǝsn ǝq ʇɥƃıɯ ʇı ʞuıɥʇ ǝuoʎuɐ sǝop

mjfgates @11, I cannot but help thinking of Binsey Poplars when I read your final paragraph

…
All felled, felled, are all felled;
    Of a fresh and following folded rank
        Not spared, not one
        That dandled a sandalled
    Shadow that swam or sank
…

Rikibeth @83, is "Memento Te Esse Mortalum" what his companion whispered to the triumphant one?

Nancy @93, do you mean Orar Trffrevg?

Obligatory:

What is this that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?

I would learn Latin, but I still haven't figured out English. When I master the latter, I'll tackle the former. How I love to plan for impossible events.

abi, this is a lot of fun, even if it does show just how completely deteriorated my Latin is after more than 40 years of unuse. I got the first 3 and then stalled out; but I will be back! Maybe more coffee? I appreciate the ROT-13ere, it gives me a chance to continue bashing my head against it while still admiring the people who can do it better.

And that most definitely isn't a problem for me. I've said it before, I'll continue to say it: I love being around people who are smarter and better educated than me. It stretches me in ways I wouldn't have thought to stretch, and makes me reach for more than I thought I could.

By the way, the modern form of "lorem ipsum" was first composed by Theodore Geisel when laying out an illustrated book, and begins "lorax ipsum".

Oh dear, Abi....

Don't look. It *burns*!!!

http://judgeabook.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-brainers.html

(the third of the three pictures in the post, that is...)

re 150: Fortunately or not, I learned to read upside down years ago.

Coming in late, but without having looked at other guesses:

1. Gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne
2. Qhaab
3. "Fcnpr, gur svany sebagvre..."
4. Sbe fbzr ernfba V jnagrq gb znxr guvf "Gur Gjryir Qnlf bs Puevfgznf" sebz gur tbyqra evatf ba qbja, ohg vg vfa'g.
5. Qhaab
6. Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba
7. Evtug ba gur gvc bs zl gbathr
8. V cebonoyl fubhyq xabj, ohg V qba'g.
9. Ab vqrn
10. Zny'f fcrrpu gb Evire ng gur raq bs *Freravgl*

This makes me want to buy the newest edition of Wheelock's Latin.

*bows deeply* Once again, ML manages to utterly intrigue and make me feel very stupid at the same time. 3 hard years of Latin and what have I got? Nothing.

But I'd like to ask this learned gathering something if you don't mind? Back in the day, when Cicero became too tedious, we used to amuse ourselves with making up sentences. My favourite was "Caesar rocked up on his bike." (Or is this some ancient meme? I can't remember.). Of course this was an approximation, the actual latin I think involved the words Caesar+arrive 3rd person sing perfect active+wheel...

My dictionaries are in my parents' attic... Can anyone translate this for me? I'd be so happy.

Humbly,
Sus of Small Brain

Though a word or two of my high school Latin may be rattling around somewhere in my brain, I didn't even try these -- not after going to bed early so I could get up at a quarter to 2 a.m. to watch the Federer vs. Djokovich semifinal at the Australian Open! (Good thing I did, since today's NYT gave away the result in a huge front-page story I couldn't possibly have missed.)

During the tennis, they keep showing ads that make Melbourne look completely delightful, even if that touted "nature" *is* several hours' drive away. Can it really be that gorgeous, from architecture to setting? Arizona has its own great scenery, but Phoenix is no gem. I prefer my hick town, though I wish to hell we had some form of public transit.

Must close now, to go get the neighbor's cat back indoors -- it's about 20 degrees outside, and frosty!

PS: Mission accomplished!

For fun Latin, I highly recommend Sandra Boynton's Grunt: Pigorian Chant.

Doc Holliday: In vino veritas.
Johnny Ringo: Age quod agis.
Doc Holliday: Credat Judaeus apella, non ego.
Johnny Ringo: Eventus stultorum magister.
Doc Holliday: In pace requiescat.
Tombstone Marshal Fred White: Come on boys. We don't want any trouble in here. Not in any language.
Doc Holliday: Evidently Mr. Ringo's an educated man. Now I really hate him.

This thread just does not stop being awesome.

Chris @148: That's wonderful.
Mikael @108: 2 is "Qvr ubryyr Enpur xbpug vz zrvarz Uregmra"

OK--I know just enough Latin to be certain I'm mangling the following: "Dies dum desidero gravitam in te adveniunt nimirum ad medio."

Tell me what I've done wrong...if you can figure out the quote in the first place. Hint: it's from Sversyl, "Bhe Zef. Erlabyqf", Zny gb Wnlar.

158: Caesar adit in rota sua. (I don't think there's a Latin word for "bike" - currus duae rotae? Two-wheeled chariot?

Sus: what you describe should be something like "Caesar aduenit rota", but I may be missing something (or just being wrong).

Meanwhile: abi, all the prose comp seems pretty good to me, although I was thinking especially of the people who were able to write their comments in Latin. If it helps, I think a native Latiner might plausibly have used "puerum" for "puerorum" on the parallel of the established variant "deum" for "deorum" (and "uirum" for "uirorum" too). Just tell people that you're so familiar with the language that you can be casual about breaking the rules...!

And, apropos of #148-- It's a pity that Paulum sacerdotis doesn't scan better.

164: well, though I may be one of abi's sub-personalities I'm one of the ones that missed out on the Latin expertise, but I have a feeling that the structure you want is a gerund:

Te contemnendum mihi certe ad medium suum advenit.

Or, better, appropinquit.

Oooh, I hope the "further hilarity" comment didn't come across as snooty... I just meant that since I don't know what most of them are supposed to say we'll end up with that great Mark Twain/French translation business.

For the record I am wicked impressed with all the Latin. And I refuse to admit how long it took me to figure out the ROT-13 business.

156/165/166: I don't know for sure but I'm sure the Neo-latin people have a word for bicycle; and since the Romans had no shame about stealing Greek words I don't see what's wrong with "bicyclus."

candle @ 166: I totally assumed that "puerum" was a syncopated genitive.

dido @ 170... What great Mark Twain/French translation business? Let me guess. Huckleberry Finn?

Sarah S@150, like C. Wingate, I learned to read upside down long, long ago, and am nearly as facile with it as most people seem to be reading normal text. I would sit with my legs over the back of the couch, my back on the seat, and my head dangling down the front, and from this position I would read a book set "right-way up" on the floor. To me, this was more fun than learning how by simply flipping the book around.

I was, and I suspect I am in good company here, an odd child.

At any rate, it would be markedly poor spoiler protection for me.

#172 Skwid and C. Wingate at #156

Yes, I wasn't seriously suggesting it as an alternative to Rot-13. I just thought it was an entertaining toy.

170/171: I think dido meant to say German, not French.

I one day became curious about the origins of the word "stet" and went googling. Did you all know that it is an editor's mark that means to not make the indicated correction?

Yes, me too. Unfortunately, that was the limit of what I turned up with Google. Frustratingly, that definition seemed to be the one invariably offered in discussion when I said I wanted to know the word's origins, even by people who knew I proof* for a living.

Finally one of my co-workers who was fortunate enough to study Latin** heard me complaining about it and told me the origin.***

*I proof the ads for a big-box retailer. I do the heavy lifting in checking the prices, but catching errors in the text is also in my job description, though theoretically they've all been found in multiple rounds of proofing before I see them.

**When I asked about it on entering high school, I was told, "No one knows that well enough to teach it anymore." I didn't even ask at college. Possibly a mistake, but given the schools I attended, I doubt they taught it either.

***Since you can't google it, here's the answer for those in my boat: It is the second person imperative for "let it stand." Or at least, that was her explanation.

Mary Aileen @ 174... Is that the comment that Twin supposedly made about German words being so long that they have a perspective? As for French, I wonder how a translator conveyed the feel of Huck's language without sounding ridiculous. (Have you ever watched the Star Trek movies dubbed into French?)

Teresa 139: You're right, of course. I was being whiny. My feelings of inferiority were greatly reduced when I realized I'd correctly identified every single passage that I'd ever seen in English, and this without one single hour of Latin instruction in school! (I tried to use Latin for Dummies, but I didn't like it.)

In other words, I got over myself a little bit! And if I'd stopped reading this thread, I'd never have seen Mikael's 108:III, which is just beyond exquisite.

Mary Aileen 161: I second your recommendation. That gorgeous voice singing out "Ecce MacDonaldus Senex, qui fundus habet!"

As for me, all (or almost all) my Latin comes from singing Renaissance motets and Gregorian chant. And, of course, Carmina Burana, and Catulli Carmina to some extent; even a little Trionfo di Afrodite, but the problem with the latter two is that the Latin is Classical Latin, and Catullus takes full advantage of the syntactic flexibility of that language, which makes it difficult, at least for me.

At any rate, speaking of Gregorian and motets: am I the only one who keeps hearing abi's 3 as Gregorian? And 1 and 2 as motets?

OK, I probably am. Am I the only one who thinks it's a good idea? Am I the only one who would love to sing the Gregorian chant "Inane Ultimus Limus" at Worldcon? (Perhaps the others, but I'm not sure my compositional skills are up to the motets; the Gregorian I can definitely do. Motets take a hell of a lot more practice to sing, too.)

Speaking of languages I have no functional knowledge of, how does my iTunes randomizer know which songs are in French? And why has it been pretty heavily into them for the past half hour?

158, 165 et al. (heh) -- th word-play among Germans learning Latin is "Caesar equus consilium" = "Caesar fährt Rad", which translates as "Caesar rides a bicycle", mangling the sounds of equus/Pferd/fährt and consilium/Rat/Rad.

It is the second person imperative for "let it stand."

Well, in fact it's the third person present subjunctive of sto, stare (I stand, to stand), and therefore means "let it stand" [or "it may stand"]. I would have said that imperatives are always second person, but I was taught that in classical Greek there are third person imperatives which are therefore almost impossible to translate into English. The closest I got was "Thatcher Out!". (Or, on an equally political note, Robin Cook.)

Debbie: I thought there might be some wordplay going on. I suppose the English equivalent is:

Caesar adsum jam forte
Brutus aderat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sic inat

epacris at 149, yes, um, oops. I plead the lateness of the hour, and that it was my first time typing in rot-13.

Chris at 99, I think deorsum is a good choice, because the meaning is below, underneath, not fallen.

(I am so made of squee right now.)

And the poem at 108 is gorgeous!

The meaning is, "below, underneath;" the meaning is not, "fallen."

Xopher @ 177:
Thanks for the praise. As for Catullus poetry, a few days before this thread erupted, I had one of those evil nuggets of inspiration.

Based on the recognition that Catullus and Cthulhu pronounce vaguely similar, I give you an extract from Cthulhi Carmina # 5.

Da mi tentaculi mille, deinde centum
Dein altera mille, dein centum secundum

Faren @ 159; I spent a week in Melbourne for work, about a decade ago. Although I spent far too much time inside a windowless computer room at Telstra (and it was May, so rainy gloomy autumnal weather prevailed), I was delighted by the architecture, the people, the beer (I do NOT like American beer, but I think I could live on VB) and the public transit. Melbourne actually had a strong flavor of the charming bits of Boston, minus the cow-addled roads. Do visit.

#180, candle -

I thought there was a good chance I was close but not correct on it. Thanks for the clarification.

non est mortuus semper quod decumbet
alienoque tempestate moriar et mors

#183:

i could not resist, since we're playing Tower of Babel today -

Iä! Iä! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

there, now i feel much better.

Ethan @ 178 -
Speaking of languages I have no functional knowledge of, how does my iTunes randomizer know which songs are in French? And why has it been pretty heavily into them for the past half hour?

I'm semi-convinced* that iTunes is Apple's first successful experiment in artificial intelligence, and either develops moods and preferences in music, or somehow is able to anticipate those of its users, even on random play (whether it chooses to follow or work against the user's preferences is another matter).

Because mine will do stuff like play 6 - 7 Gladiator soundtrack tunes in a row. Or play anime/J-Pop music for half an hour. Or gets on a Star Trek jag. or decides I really want to listen to drum & bass for a while.

Conversely, there are songs (and whole albums) that I haven't heard since I burned them from CD - years ago, in some cases - unless I go in and play them manually.

*No, not really. But, you know...

I saw a license plate the other evening:
'A2 BRTS'

(Yes, the case is wrong. But it still had me giggling.)

An open threadly query: In reading back over old comment threads, I sometimes see very old spam that never got deleted. Do you want to know about it? For example, here.

Serge (176): I understood it to be a reference to Twain's essay "The Awful German Language." But only dido knows for sure.

N, I think it's "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County", rendered into French and then "clawed back into a civilized language once more by patient, unremunerated toil."

Teresa's #139 has a great alien name hidden away in it: Zhaqnar. I mean, wouldn't you be frightened of the invaders from Zhaqnar?

Scott Taylor (#188): That's why I use smart playlists to play things I haven't heard in a certain length of time. It makes it far less likely that I'll miss hearing something again.

Serge in #171: Mark Twain's most famous short story, "The Celebrated Jumping Frog of Calaveras County," was translated into French. Mr. Twain was not entirely satisfied with the result.

I think you will enjoy this:

The Jumping Frog: In English. Then in French. Then Clawed Back into a Civilized Language Once More by Patient, Unremunerated Toil.

Scott Taylor #188: Well, "my" AI has decided since I last posted that it very much feels like listening to contemporary British girl group pop concoctions. I bet I like those groups more than most here, so I'm not complaining, but it's still weird...

Thanks, everybody, about Twain. I'm not unduly surprised at his unhappiness. True, he was a cranky fellow. There is also my own experience when I tried to read a CJCherryh book in French even though I had it in English: I made the mistake of comparing both texts and finding unexplainable differences. Since then, I have been unable to read anything translated from English into my native language.

Serge @ 170/Mary Aileen @191

theophylact and Bill Higgins have what I was thinking of. Twain seems almost prophetic of internet translations.

I hope to have an addition to the corpus soon but today is the Hell Day: Intensive Greek, Greek Prose, Intensive Latin. Right now I'm just hoping to get home before my brains leak out my ears.

Paul A. @135: Shouldn't that really be "Matwimonium. Matwimonium esse quae conciwiawe nobis hodie" etc.?

Which naturally leads to stuff along the lines of "Habeo maximum amicum Womae qui Biggus Dickus wocatus esse" and "Libewa Wodewicum!", though otoh classical standards might call instead for transliteration along the lines of "matvimonivm" etc.

Aargh. That should be "computer translations such as are now to be found freely on the internet." As opposed to, you know, the stuff we're doing right now.

Aargh. That should be "computer translations such as are now to be found freely on the internet." As opposed to, you know, the stuff we're doing right now.

See above: brains, leaking.

Fabella Domini Anulorum Latine reddita (partim)
Dominus Anulorum (Vicipaedia)

And I just now got number 9, and laughed aloud. I haven't read or thought of that book in years.

More pondering, now that my fellow classics grad student-cum-geek is awake and around for puzzling over these.

Surely dido was thinking of the celebrated jumping frog of Calaveras County, as e.g. at http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/frog.html?

Oops. I ought to refresh before posting. How redundantly redundant of me.

re Tim @20, In C: That's fabulous. When are we getting together to play it, and how many other folks can we scrounge together to do so?

re cyhzf @108.III: lovely!

re Catullus/Cthulu mashup @183: eeeeek!

Xopher @177:

Count me in on the Gregorian chant, though I haven't been in a chant choir since I studied Latin Prose Composition. If we end up at the same Worldcon ever, let's do it.

I think 3 works well as a chant because it has lots of short punchy sentences.

Motets scare me to sing, but give me a metrical pattern and I can certainly try to write one. Only not this weekend, please, because the Cue Cat has come and I'm putting all our books on Library Thing.

172/173: I find it particularly useful reading something with someone else since the item can be placed on a table/desk between us, facing the other person. I have to train people to cooperate with this, though, or else they try to turn things/people in an effort to make things less upside down. I cannot read sideways-- at least, not more than a word or two at a time.

Christopher (193): I originally had the main text in English and that word in ROT13, but for a couple of reasons I decided to flip them. It does sound like a made-up skiffy word.

Has anyone ever done a real study of the differences in letter frequency between standard English, made-up skiffy words, made-up fantasy words, and made-up non-genre English?

Still waiting to see whether anyone identifies #144.

I learned to read upside down as a child, because my father mentioned that he had the skill and it sounded neat.

It was very useful during my years as a financial auditor.

Now, I mostly use it in restaurants which supply too few menus.

Years of choral singing have left me with the not otherwise useful skill of being able to pronounce somewhat convincingly in something over eight languages (+/- versions of English and Slavonic languages). My Spanish tends to develop an Italian accent, though.

Chanting is one of those things where if you get in the groove, you can do it spontaneously with just about any text. At one point before we had children my wife and I carried on a twenty minute conversation in the "Old Scottish Chant".

Serge -- re: translations. I read a lot of translated material, and there's always a nagging question in the back of my mind, "Did I like/dislike the book or the translation??" Maddening sometimes. And you mentioned something awhile ago about the "voice" of a narration being important -- it is for me, too, and it's something that's difficult to carry over in translation. For example, Tatjana Tolstoia's "Slynx" (Eng.) sounded very different to me from the German version ("Kys"), and who knows if either of them convey the same feeling as the original Russian? I have a huge respect for literary translators.

With regard to reading upside down: I learned to do it at the breakfast table. In grade school I wasn't allowed to read my own book or a piece of the newspaper at the table, but I HAD to read SOMETHING. So I read the others' things.

Debbie @ 211... The saying about translation in French is Traduction est trahison, which, ah, translates as Translation is betrayal.

Having tried to sketch out a translation, the #144 still doesn't ring any bell. I am starting to think, however, that this is due to lack of knowledge of the relevant literature, and not lack of knowledge of the relevant latin.

Nf Tbq gur Ybeq perngrq gur gevor anzrq Wbavf va gur svryq shyy jvgu obarf

And then there is Anglemittus Circumservus that I cannot seem to fit into the whole thing at all.

Obligatory quote from The Frantics' "Roman Numerals" sketch:

"How much is 'forty-four' in real numbers?"
"XLIV." (spoken: ecks el eye vee)
"XLIV? Why didn't you just *say* XLIV? Who can remember 'forty-four'?"

dido@170: thank you - "syncopated" was the word I was looking for. Being an inveterate researcher (if I can pretend it's related to work), I discover that Plautus uses "puerum" for "puerorum" at least once. So, abi? You're in good company.

I can't get Teresa's #144 either, even if I can make some sense of the Latin. [Mikael: zl irefvba vf zhpu gur fnzr nf lbhef: "Whfg nf gur Ybeq bhe Tbq sebz n svryq shyy bs obarf perngrq gur crbcyr anzrq (nsgre?) Wbavf (Wbua?)..."?]

I see I ought also to have mentioned that my #186 was meant as a contribution to Cthulhi Carmina...

My offering (and sorry about the double posts):

Tantum nescioquo audiverim, cui curae quid dicam sit sed etiam non curae possit, opto, si flocci est, ut tibi ignoscatur sive aliquid feceris sive deliqueris quod ignoscendum sit. Contra, si necesse sit habere non clementiam sed aliud ut tibi quaedam beneficia debita post corporis exitium adrogetur, opto ut hoc, quidquid id est, sic donetur aut abnegetur ut ipsam beneficiam adsumas. haec opto electus depeciscendi causa inter te et istum qui, etsi tu non est, ita curet ut quam maximum huius adroges et aliquo modo ritu tangat.

candle @ 215:
While I share your complete stumpedness at Teresa's offering, I must say that your contribution to Cthulhi Carmina is made of win.

dido @216:

I faint at your feet.

On treason and translation: Douglas Hofstader wrote a fabulous book on translation, Le Ton Beau de Marot, in which he translates Marot's A une damoiselle malade approximately a zillion different ways.

Also: my favorite plot point revealed in Latin: Placetne, magistra?

re: #144

Mikael and candle: [V'z cerggl fher gur anzr vf n cha: "zvgghf" zrnaf zvyq be tragyr, ohg vg pna nyfb zrna zrepvshy be . . . Pyrzrag, naq Natyhf vf n jbeq sbe gur Ratyvfu, fb Pyrzrag gur Ratyvfuzna? Fvzvyneyl Pvephzfreihf frrzf yvxr vg zhfg or n cha nf jryy V whfg pna'g guvax bs jung vg zvtug or. Rfcrpvnyyl fvapr vg'f tbg gb or va nccbfvgvba gb Qrhf Qbzvahf.]

This is WAY too much fun. Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

I learned to read upside-down while sitting across the desk from interviewers and copy chiefs.

Some finds, stumbled upon while exploring outward from the earlier vikipedia link:

Latina mercatoria
Singularitas Technologia
Kenethus MacLeod

dido @ 220... Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

Does that mean you won't translate the original Star Trek monologue into Latin then back into English?

Re (speaking of Latin): 144, maybe Jonis is "Wbarf", which rhymes with "obarf." Otherwise, Mikael and candle seem to be on the right track, but the reference is eluding me too. Plus Googling for the relevant words proved unhelpful.

I can stab at Anglemittum Circumservus -- natry-frag nebhaq-fynir, to be overliteral -- but I'm not drawing any enlightenment from that either.

Ruth 205 and Tim 20: Somehow I missed, on the first goaround, that that was a link to the actual score and instructions for In C! How wonderful. If you want to play it anywhere near me, I'm in. I'll try anyway.

abi 206: Great! I don't suppose you'll be going to Denver?

C. 210: Fabulous. Denver?

And I know what you mean about the groove of chant. I can make up Gregorian-ish chant melodies on the fly, though I'm pretty sure I borrow heavily from Hildegarde von Bingen.

Anyone remember The Day of the Dolphin?

Originally French, and the English edition I had was translated with no punctuation for direct speech, even though the words in the text had all the phrasing and structure.

Something like this:

This is the work of devils! said the lama, recoiling from the hollow echoing darkness, the glimmer of rails between the masonry platforms, and the maze of girders above.

Which is Kipling, but you can see where the quote marks should be.

Two words, plus the source, but not quoted poetry.

dido @220:
This is WAY too much fun. Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

Funny you should say that. This posting started out as three texts, but it was rather like eating crisps. Every evening, when I should have been sleeping, there I was pulling the grammar apart in another text.

(Did I mention that my copy of Allan & Greenough's New Latin Grammar is halfway through the rebinding process?)

Hmmm.

yog.com is for sale

Just thought, you know, might be worth mentioning.

Dave Bell @ 225... no punctuation for direct speech

That, alas, is the way they do it in French. I never cared much for it.

OK, properly "frag" would be missum, not mittum, my bad. Still - not - helping...

Debbie @ 179

That's it! I'd forgotten. A well-known thing it was, then, not something we made up. Still, it makes me laugh and laugh. Thank you so much for bringing that back to me!

Ruth @ 205, Xopher @ 224: The San Francisco Symphony did a play-along In C (analogous to a sing-along Messiah) a few years ago. I'm kinda bummed that I didn't go.

OTOH, I've tried playing along to the record, and it's harder than it looks!

Magus perdubtilissimus etiam impedietur ab novacula inter scapulis.

I'm pretty sure I got all the cases right.

Maybe that should be "Magus perdubtilissimus etiam ab novacula inter scapulis impedietur", for that verb-final style.

Abi... there appears to be a typo in number 3. I'm pretty sure "qauerere" ought to be "quaerere". Had me confused for a moment there. :)

I posted this before, but it seems very appropriate here again:

Lingua::Romana::Perligata -- Perl for the XXI-imum Century

Jules @235:

Fixed, and thanks for pointing it out.

Teresa @144: Of course! Ubique!

How strange in a language without either "the" or "Mr & Mrs".

Tu lapidas.

Carrie S @ 233, 234:

Also (cheating and using Google):
Tace, Loiosh!

Serge @ 196

There is also my own experience when I tried to read a CJCherryh book in French even though I had it in English

Now that's funny, I would have expected her to translate her own work (she's done some translation from French to English, I know). And what's good enough for Elisabeth Vonarburg ...

Not having any Latin save the bits from a science background most of this is way over my head, though Paul A. #135 and Julie L. #198 nearly caused a drink-spitting incident.

Apropos of different flavours of geekery, and candle #124's comment, here is extreme geekness with theremin.

Oh and Dave Bell #126:
Only if punning is your metier.

Oh, and in re Kenethus MacLeod. It's perfectly normal when taking a barbarian name into Latin to keep the nominative (and vocative) in the original form, and just decline it in the third declension. Thus my name in Latin isn't Iohanna, Iohanna, Iohannam, etc. (feminine, first declension) but Jo, Jo, Iohannis (neuter, third declension.) If I were Ken, I'd do the same, and be Ken, Ken, Kenetis. Not only does this help that when people are actually talking to you, they usually use the nominative or vocative, but it's also more reasonable for Latin speakers, who expect weird borrowed words to be declined in the third declension.

Yeah, I decided this when I was fifteen, what can I say except that I'm still right anyway.

This site (well, the people populating it) has (have) a disconcerting ability to make me feel positively unlettered...of course, my two years of Latin in high school, and at least two more semesters of same in college, were a long, long time ago, which may have something to do with it.

For this thread, anyway. :)

Would anyone care to try their hand at the poem with agents of the imperial fisc pursuing through provincial sewers? That's got Latin words in it already.

Bruce Cohen @ 240... And what's good enough for Elisabeth Vonarburg ...

You know Elisabeth?

Soon Lee, 241: I never realized the adults in the Peanuts TV specials spoke theremin...

abi @218: A demonic challege. Parts of it I think work; more of it . . . well. . . let's just say I think I'd do a better job in Greek. All that indefiniteness gets really confusing.

That said I'm tucking the source away for the day I teach Prose Comp myself. Any corrections or suggestions for improvement gratefully appreciated.

the same @227: Composition is totally addictive. We did a little bit of verse comp for my Greek Prose Comp class when I was in school; I spent HOURS (basically all week) translating a few of J.V. Cunningham's epigrams into elegaic couplets and the prof came in with "anyone lived in a pretty how town" in tragic trimeter. Zowie.

Serge @ 222: Wouldn't that be like carrying owls to Athens at this point?

Alan @ 244: I'm on it. I think I have a copy kicking around here.

Jo @242: Thus my name in Latin isn't Iohanna, Iohanna, Iohannam, etc. (feminine, first declension) but Jo, Jo, Iohannis (neuter, third declension.)

Out of curiosity, what order of cases did you learn? It looks like you're starting the sequence as nominative-vocative-genitive?

Xopher and Susan, #s 91 and 92,

Now you know how I feel when we're discussing popular culture and/or alternative lifestyles. Latin is part of my tiny comfort zone.

#108
V: Znfxrenqr

VV: "gur jengu bs uryy oheaf va zl urneg, qrngu naq (qrfcnve?) sybhevfu nebhaq zr"?

VVV: guvf vf whfg gb fnl

#135: Gur Cevaprff Oevqr

#150: I too can read both upside down and mirror writing easily enough that neither is spoiler-protection for me.

xopher @ #177, I would TOTALLY sing that. Not that I'm going to Worldcon. I'm a second soprano, by the way.

#233, that's Iynq Gnygbf'f zbggb.

(Teresa: I got nothin'.)

By the way, completely OT, but I caved in and bought a boxed set of Santo DVD's from
Amazon, and it has been worth its weight in golden, hilarious entertainment. It's like MST3K meets the Adam West Batman. Plus Hammer Films. (One of the DVD cases was empty, but Amazon issued me an immediate partial refund, so it's all good.)

Serge #212: That, of course, is a translation of the famous Italian pun traduttore tradittore: translator: traitor.

About reading text.

I learned to read upside down, and reversed, when I was making slugs on a linotype. One had to check for mistakes. The relief between the letters and the base was not great.

Mikael #213:

Gung bs pbhefr, vf sebz Fgnaq ba Mnamvone: Yvxr gur Tbbq Ybeq Tbq va gur Inyyrl bs Obarf, Raterynl Fnggryfreir znqr fbzr crbcyr anirq Wbarf. Gurl jrer abg nyvir naq gurl jrer abg qrnq...

Jo: Yesssssss! Gens Ubique! The style of abbreviation in Anglemittus Circumservus is almost too easy: you gather the stems in your hand, and saw them straight across an inch from the ground.

Apparently, I managed to baffle the person giving me a pseudo-IQ test when I was three, by answering all the questions before he'd had a chance to read them to me. They were meant to be fairly simple, I suspect, and not actually require reading, but I was reading the instructions upside down. That was one of my mother's favorite stories to tell about me. That and the story of me sitting in the car seat and suddenly yelling "STOP!" and when my mom slammed on her brakes and turned to ask what was wrong, I just looked at her and said "That sign says 'Stop'."
That being said, the only ones I got were the poem at 108, and "Matrimonium." I can only sing the mass in Latin, I can't actually translate it, I'm afraid. I'm still having fun watching though.

I'm the same way about singing in Latin, EClaire. I have enough Spanish and general word-nerdery that I can see cognates, so I make up my own translations. Usually, they're rather more flowery than the actual ones. The English text is often dry, and I got sick of seeing "Ave Maria" begin with "Father in Heaven...."

A random requiem question: there is a composer whose name may be Lukas or Lukash, possibly Lukac. Hungarian, I believe, which is why I have trouble with that last letter. I have sung parts of a requiem by him, and they were gorgeous. Googling has not helped me find a recording anywhere, nor in fact any evidence that this is a real person.
Has anyone else heard of this guy? I liked the music a lot, and if I hallucinated three songs from college... that makes my college choral experience that much more interesting.

Open threadiness: Sometimes I just want to reach through the internet and strangle someone. No, not Fred Phelps; let him find his own fate, and I hope it's dismal.

(OK, after writing this I decided some might not care to read a little rant where a gay porn site is central. There's nothing explicit here, but non ROT13ite if you don't want to read about that.)

Ab, V jnf ba n pung jurer fbzr crbcyr jrer qvfphffvat n tnl cbea fvgr, bar bs gubfr gung srngher nyyrtrqyl "fgenvtug" thlf.

Bar bs gurz pbzcynvarq gung gurl nyjnlf znxr bar bs gur fhcreznfphyvar uhaxf jrne "gung tnl nff yvcfgvpx."

Jryy svefg V grnfrq: "gurl znqr uvz jrne yvcfgvpx ba uvf NFF?" Gura V evqvphyrq: "Ur'f univat frk jvgu nabgure zna naq lbh'er pbzcynvavat gung gur YVCFGVPX vf tnl?!?" Gura V erzbafgengrq nobhg hfvat gur jbeq 'tnl' gb zrna ynzr naq fghcvq.

Ohg crbcyr jub ner hapbafpvbhf nyzbfg arire yvfgra. Creuncf V frag uvz n onq qernz va uvf jnxvat fyhzore. V'yy cebonoyl arire xabj.

Diatryma: the Hungarian spelling should be Lukács, although Google shows me no composers of that name. Conductor Ervin, Violist Pal, Soprano Georgina. Alternate spelling Lukasz also comes up with no composers.

Alas, Google has failed us.

Roma Labens
undis moles percutiuntur
deserto in agro tempestas
agmen proiectum verberant
complent latrones spelaeum.

*I think this scans as a classical iambic dimeter if you give me an epic correption in the last line.

The rest:
vestes mirabiles fiunt
mancipes aerarii venantur
illos vectigalia fugientes
per cloaca oppidi municipalis

Arcana carmina scorta aedium
consopiunt
omnes venusti tenent
amicum comentitium.

Semnoprosopos* Cato
laudet mos maiorum
sed milites nimium firmi
agunt sedidionem stipendariorum causa.

Caesar lectum calet
dum non magnus criba
scribet NON AMO LABOREM
in tabulam publicam.

nec opibus nec clementia donati
parvuli aves cruribus rubris
colens *poikila ova
adspectant quamquam urbem peste corruptam.

omnino alibi pernumeri
greges transeunt
muscos aureos multa passum milia
cum silentio et citissime.

*semnoprosopos=holy-faced
poikilia=speckled

of #144, Chris @ #223 wrote: I can stab at Anglemittum Circumservus -- natry-frag nebhaq-fynir, to be overliteral -- but I'm not drawing any enlightenment from that either.

Might a less literal translation of "Circumservus" by "jbexnebhaq"? If so, does that help at all?

(This is fun. Hooray for distributed problem-solving!)

Er, on 'Anglemittus Circumservus' take a look at #253 above (it should be Raterynl Fngryfrei, I was typing it in Rot-13).

candle @ #186:

"Gung vf abg qrnq juvpu pna rgreany yvr..."

Julie L. @ #198: Shouldn't that really be "Matwimonium. Matwimonium esse quae conciwiawe nobis hodie" etc.?

I did try that (as well as "Matuimonium" etc., because the Latin looked odd with Ws), but I couldn't settle on a satifactory version of some of the words - "amor" in particular.

Fragano @ #253:

Ah. Well, that explains why I didn't recognise it.

@ 211: there's always a nagging question in the back of my mind, "Did I like/dislike the book or the translation??"

Did anyone else try to read that translation of Koji Suzuki's Dark Water that came out a couple of years ago? I'm pretty sure I disliked the translation, not the stories. I just couldn't believe that a Japanese narrator of a Japanese story for a Japanese audience would refer to a tatami room as "the Japanese-style room." Or that the pet name Iko-chan would be consistently rendered "little Ikoku." Or again, that this putative narrator of a Japanese story for a Japanese audience would commit an atrocity of a sentence like, "She combed her brownish, wavy hair, which is unusual for a Japanese woman."

I had to set the book down unfinished.* For the record, I don't speak word one of Japanese, and I'm not some manga-toting American otaku. I don't think I know any more about Japanese culture than I know about Brazilian culture or Italian culture or, for that matter, British culture. But I hate it when a translation interpolates explanations of things that are common knowledge or that I can glean from context. I hate being translated down to.

*On the other hand, my sister liked it, and I like my sister, so go figure.

Fragano @ 251... Interesting. Another French version of that saying is Traduire, c'est trahir, or To translate is to betray.

Nevertheless, I'm glad for translations because otherwise there'd have been very little SF for me to feed my mind with. Better to have an approximation of a story's original intent than no story at all.

Diatryma, 256: I bet you're thinking of György Ligeti. Portions of his Requiem were used in Kubrick's 2001.

Sue and I popped in our DVD of Firefly's pilot. Guess what? We loved it as much as we originally did.

259, J. U. Nhqra, "Gur Snyy bs Ebzr"

Terry Karney @ 252... when I was making slugs on a linotype

First slugs,
Next humans?
It's alive, alive!

Which I got the moment I saw the fifth stanza. I laughed very hard, and made Patrick come look.

Xopher #257: I admit, I sometimes use "gay" that way. When I do it, I wouldn't say I'm exactly being ironic, but it's always a marked usage.

Chris Quinones: the sample of the Requiem on Amazon were not the same. It's possible that the sample was a part I didn't sing, but it didn't match the bits I did sing, if that makes sense.

Xopher, 'gay' is troublesome. I don't like it as a perjorative, but sometimes it's hilarious-- a friend of mine, while trash-talking to her son over a Buffy game, once spat out, "Your mom's gay!" and heard dead silence through the rest of the room... and then everyone burst out laughing because, well, she is, and she is not afraid to say so.
When treated seriously, it's bad. When treated as a joke, but poorly, it's cringe-inducing. When treated as a joke, but well, it's hilarious.

I find it amusing in this thread that the first entry in the 1337key transformer submenu is "Latin to 1337".

I just found a really cool time waster.

Seed

You start with a seed. You plant it. You can clone it, or cross it. Crossing will have some change, cloning may have some gentic drift.

You keep crossing for traits you like. There can only be five plants at a time.

There are some tricks, but I'll leave them to you to find out.

You can save the code, and so share interesting flowers with your friends.

Xopher @ #177, 224: Oooh. That sounds like LOTS of fun. Denver will be my third Worldcon— 1st was half-day only, and I was too late to see most of the stuff (including, alas, the art show.) I was also a bit young in the ways of conventions.

2nd was very cool but the only people I really knew were the family I'd come with. So I never did get to filking or anything of that sort (though I did have a blast regardless; there's just a limit to what you can do if you're staying at your sister's, a mile-point-five away, you're walking, and your backpack is full of the hardbacks you're getting signed. And you have to be back in time for dinner.)

The weird thing is that this one will be the first convention for which I'm actually staying at a convention hotel, and can plausibly be out doing things on my own. Though probably Squirmy's going to be setting a lot of the schedule; there is this whole feeding thing I'll need to be taking care of.

But if I can, I will be glad to join. I'll also teach my children's song version of "Quantum materiæ materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari." It might be able to be sung as a round but I haven't bothered to transcribe it and find out.

Beyond a whole lot of botanical names, the only Latin I have by right is "Illegitimi non Carborundum" and I rue the day I lost my Tshirt with those words in a banner over the geoduc and fir trees...

That said, this thread has been an education in more ways than one.

Xopher @#257: Jryy svefg V grnfrq: "gurl znqr uvz jrne yvcfgvpx ba uvf NFF?"

ROFL, that's how I initially read it too. In the same vein:

V bapr pbzcynvarq gb n sevraq gung gur sevrq evpr sebz gur ybpny gunv cynpr "gnfgrf yvxr nff," zrnavat fvzcyl gung vg gnfgrf onq, naq ur dhvgr fvapreryl fnvq "bu, qb lbh guvax fb? Gung'f jrveq, V qba'g guvax vg qbrf ng nyy."

I also sometimes use "gay" to mean "dorky/useless" but I'm training myself out of it, since words like that are always used to signify social grouping in one way or another. I'm not gay enough, myself, to use it ironically the way my gay friends do, so when I say it, I'm socially grouping myself with...I guess with adolescents, who are almost universally homophobic (and heterophobic...we're mostly omniphobic at that age, where difference and/or sexuality are concerned).

Last week, one of my cubicle neighbors gave me a ride back home in his hybrid. His teenage son apparently calls it a 'gay' car. I didn't quite get it until the man explained that, when the kid said 'gay', he was really substituting it to the word 'queer' in its older meaning of 'weird'. I kid you not.

Terry, that's a truly evil time-sink.

So not the kind of thing I should be handed when it's already long past bedtime.

Diatryma @ #256 -

Might it have been Zdenek Lukas (Zdeněk Lukáš)? Czech rather than Hungarian.

http://cdmusic.cz/inshop/shop.asp?kat=CQ00142211

http://www.musicfayre.com/classical_music/item/cq0053-2.html.en

So, I don't know if I'm going to be sleeping. A friend has just gone into labor, and I'm off.

@#256, continued: Googling on the name above, plus [requiem mp3] yields some additional hits that may or may not help.

http://www.emusic.com/album/Karen-Grylls-CHOIR-OF-THE-WORLD-MP3-Download/11111278.html

http://www.radio.cz/mp3/podcast/fr/faits/070717-zdenek-lukas-un-compositeur-aime-de-choeurs.mp3

dido @247 Composition is totally addictive. --

Both my children are taking Latin in school. The German school system drives me NUTS. They ONLY learn to translate. If I ask them, "How would you say _____?" they get seriously irritated with me. They're not expected to, you know, manipulate the language in their brains and actually use it, and they're affronted when I ask them to. *sigh* What a waste.

JESR@277: I'm not sure if you realize that's not really Latin...? It's a made-up phrase that sounds like it could mean what it's claimed to mean, but uses words that weren't really used by the Romans.

dido@216: Wow! Well done!

candle@180: Yes, Greek has third-person imperatives. They're not translatable as a single word, but that doesn't make them untranslatable. One result of that is, a Greek subjunctive verb is hortatory, or strongly urging, where a Latin subjunctive would be jussive, or commanding.

On another topic entirely: I was thinking about Life on Mars fanfic...Sam/Gene (of course); Gene/Annie (ick); Annie/The Test Pattern Girl (huh?) and there popped into my head "Sam/Frodo". Maybe a crossover fanfic where Sam gets hit by a car in 1973 and wakes up in Middle-Earth.

Fragano @ 253:
That would account for my not recognizing it. Never read it.

I was never taught latin* so can't decline or conjugate but I seem to have picked up quite a bit along the way (along the lines of pro bono publico** and so on). I'm still working on some of them. But it reminds me that it was only while reading Robert Harris' Imperium earlier this month that I realised what the word inaugural originally meant***.

* Hence my first try at Inane…ultimus limes was [something]...last wall?
** For some reason that last word is always left off.
*** This despite being a sucker for novels set in ancient Rome.

Terry Karney @ 282... Let us know how it turns out.

dido @ 247... Wouldn't that be like carrying owls to Athens at this point?

Why, besides that Grey-eyed Athena*) already has one?

(*) I still think that Ingrid Berman's daughter was great in that role in 1997's Odyssey miniseries.

xopher @ #257, I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, but I confess with shame that I laughed out loud when one of the Onion's criticisms of the Segway was "government-required sticker that reads 'Stay Back 100 Feet from Gay Little Scooter'."

I wonder if carrying owls to Athens is like coals to Newcastle?

Like others here, my Latin knowledge is gleaned and inferred from non-primary sources: botanical and biological studies, working in medicine and legal publishing, reading Roman and Mediaeval history, a long fascination with English etymology, and exposure to Romance languages through opera. Vocabulary, but almost no grammar. One of my sigs is "Finem respice et principiis obsta", but I depend on the kindness of others to have supplied the translation.

So I could work out 1 — originally thought it was from one of the Psalms, then, like shapes emerging from the morning mist, I comprehended phrases and grasped the whole. A wonderful sensation! This gave me a hint of the direction to go when I thought I recognized bits of 6, then 3, then of course! 2. But though I can pick out parts of the others, either I haven't read them or didn't make the connection (Raqre'f Tnzr, indeed).

I'm both humbled and excited to see what's developed in the comments, Mikael's #108 & dido's #259 lifted my soul indeed, as did the intercourse here as a whole. And there's some nice music to listen to as well.

Owlmirror, I think that's it! I did not imagine the pretty songs!
I tried last night to find lists of Hungarian composers-- Wikipedia has a category of them. I checked Croatian, Czech, and Ukrainian, and nothing turned up. I had been hoping to find someone with a very similar name I could then Google.

Seed won't load for me. Alas, for I am forced to be productive.

Amber (#184): Thanks for the info on Melbourne. I'm no traveller, but I have friends Down Under and would love to go there Someday. If I do, Melbourne's on the list -- maybe during the Open, so I could watch it all *live* on telly.

As for the displays of linguistic talent in this thead, I'm just gobsmacked! Having forgotten most of my H.S. Latin and college German (while retaining more of the French), I can't even claim a talent for reading upside-down. I *did* learn one thing from years of doing British-style cryptic crosswords: quite often I can decode an anagrammatic clue without thinking about it. So useful in daily life.

Debbie 284: That's what I didn't like about Latin for Dummies. It explicitly states that it is NOT intended to enable you to compose Latin sentences, but only to read Latin texts! The same is true of my Middle Egyptian book.

Drives me crazy. What the HELL is the use of learning a language if you can't produce a sentence in it?!?!?!?

I did Latin for three years back in high school. "Caecilius est pater, Matella est mater, Quintus est filius" etc. didn't do me much good with these. But I've had fun working (some of) them out.

This has revealed a hole in our reference book collection - no Latin-English dictionary. Must fix that.

Re. Reading upside down - me too.

Xopher -- On the one hand, the schools try to attract Latin pupils* and emphasize that Latin is not a dead language. They wax eloquent about how knowing Latin makes it easy to learn many other languages**. They talk about the importance of the Romans to European history and heritage (well, duh). Latin is a prerequisite for several college majors. And yet, I think that by the very act of deliberately leaving out the creative half of the "learning a language" equation, they condemn Latin to being a dead language where it counts: in the minds of their pupils. Not exactly a motivational attitude for other languages, either.

I for one would liven up the lessons by doing a unit on Roman graffiti, then having the students compose their own and spraypainting it on wallpaper. Reasonably chaste, of course. Or reading Asterix and Obelix in Latin, then maybe captioning their own cartoons....lots of possibilities. It's not like there aren't resources out there.

*to put those teachers to use who qualified in it aeons ago :)
**I've always argued that the reverse is just as valid

Mez @ 291... my Latin knowledge is gleaned and inferred from non-primary sources: botanical and biological studies

Carnivorous Vulgaris
Road-Runnerus Digestus
Eatibus Anythingus
Famishus-Famishus
Eatibus Almost Anythingus
Eatius Birdius
Famishius Fantasticus
Eternalii Famishiis
Famishus Vulgarus
Vulgaris Ingeniusi
Famishius-Famishius
Unbelieveus Eatius-Slobbius
Hardheadipus Oedipus
Incalculus Carnivorous Slobbius
Hard-Headipus Ravenus
Evereadii Eatibus
Apetitius Giganticus
Hungrii Flea-Bagius
Overconfidentii Vulgaris
Idioticus Desertous-operativus Idioticus
Caninus Nervous Rex
Grotesques Appetitus
Nemesis Riduclii

Coyote catches Road Runner

Serge
That reminnds me of the 'scientific name' my brother gave one of the critters he drew: E. flatteus grumbus. (Common name: flat-footed grumby. Has one foot and a large mouth.)

P J Evans @ 299... Has one foot and a large mouth

And did the one-footed grumby put its foot in its mouth, at which comedy ensues?

Meanwhile. have you ever heard of the strigiphilus garylarsoni? It's a real creature, a biting louse of a genus only found on owls(*). And, yes, it was named in honor of the cartoonist Gary Larson.

(*) dido?

Serge @ 300:
Meanwhile. have you ever heard of the strigiphilus garylarsoni? It's a real creature, a biting louse of a genus only found on owls(*). And, yes, it was named in honor of the cartoonist Gary Larson.

There's also an Ecuadoran butterfly named after him (Serratoterga larsoni), along with an entire genus of beetles (Garylarsonus).

(From this delightful list of curious scientific names.)

Peter Erwin @ 301... I rather like this one...

Albunea groeningi Boyko, 2002 (sand crab (Crustacea: Anomura: Albuneidae)) named for Matt Groening

Lila @ 290 ...
xopher @ #257, I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, but I confess with shame that I laughed out loud when one of the Onion's criticisms of the Segway was "government-required sticker that reads 'Stay Back 100 Feet from Gay Little Scooter'."

Indeed, all I can picture now is the delightful ribbons and curls and a fine sunday bonnet ... on a Segway :)

Lila @ 290 ...
xopher @ #257, I don't use "gay" as a pejorative, but I confess with shame that I laughed out loud when one of the Onion's criticisms of the Segway was "government-required sticker that reads 'Stay Back 100 Feet from Gay Little Scooter'."

Indeed, all I can picture now is the delightful ribbons and curls and a fine sunday bonnet ... on a Segway :)

A train of thought too complex or silly to explain led me from one thing to another, and so, this little video is for TexAnne and Serge in the spirit of openthreadery.

Whew.
Teresa @217 Hooray! But I have to say there is an atrocious number of typo's in it. I have some revisions below.

Debbie @284/Xopher @294/Debbie @296: One of the problems with teaching dead languages actively is that that there is a dearth of source material. Imagine trying to teach someone conversational English with only Chaucer (Plautus), Emily Dickinson (Catullus) and Macauley (Cicero) to work with. I don't say it can't be done, but it's hard and most teachers can't do it. Dorothy L. Sayers had it right when she suggested starting kids with medieval Latin.

Serge @289: Mez hit the nail on the head. Athenian coins were stamped with an owl and is exactly the ancient equivalent of "coals to Newcastle."

(259 revised and versified strophes 2 & 3)

vestes fiunt mirabiles;
captant ministri aerarii
hunc qui cloacis contegens
tributum vel abscondidit.

nunc carmina occulte sacra
scorta aedium consopiunt.
omni venusto fingitur
mendax amicus vacuus.

Fragano@305: I played the video you linked to . . . and now I can't get the [expletive deleted] music out of my head! What IS that song? I have this awful feeling I should recognize it, or something like it, but I can't pin it down.

Fragano @ 305... Thanks. I got a kick out of Asterix (like most Roman legionnaires, yes) making an appearance. It was weird seeing the words and recognizing them as if they were the French language of an alternate Reality. By the way, is it my imagination or did they end the song with a crack at George Washington Bush?

dido @ 306... Hah! Again all knowledge can be found in ML. What I didn't get though was what Athena's birdie had to do with a Latin translation of Star Trek's monologue. It's probably obvious. Or maybe I got my wires crossed as to which of my posts you were responding to. When I find out, I'll probably be extremely embarassed, but that's ok. I can live with that if it means being made a teeny-weeny bit less ignorant.

Xopher 294: Drives me crazy. What the HELL is the use of learning a language if you can't produce a sentence in it?!?!?!?

I agree completely. Given that I'm rather bad at learning languages myself, I spend a lot of time studying learning methods for languages, and have decided that the more different ways you interact with the language, the more likely it is to stick. And production covers half the possible interactions. The best learning experiences I've had included some very playful composition exercises (ask me sometime about the braided stories we came up with in Breton class). And when I started putting together my own "teach yourself Medieval Welsh" lessons, I made sure to include a lot of translation-into exercises as well as translation-from.

Tying into the more general theme of the thread, I've always tried to write at least one original poem in any language I've studied. They aren't very good, but there you are. Here's the one I wrote for Hittite class:

Kuis=mu ussaras menahhanda tiyazi
N=as wiyanas antuhsi kuis ekuzi
Nu HURSAG-az hariya uemi
Nu=ta ispantuzzi iyami
Namma=ya ekumi

(I never studied Latin, though I spent several years reading and re-reading both the Ordinary and the Proper of the Mass before the vernacular busted through. Plus, I was briefly an altar boy memorizing prayers in Latin, then had to memorize them all over again in a new language.)

#3 was the only one I got. "Kemmerentes" (#2) and "'Versi" (#10) hinted at the source, at least, of those two.

So this is not my game. But, having spent several years among the Flurospherians, I have strengthened my ego against the realization that beings of stupendous intelligence and awesome erudition walk the Net.

Let them have their glee. There are other games played here; some of them, I am good at.

Serge in #297 offers a list"

Carnivorous Vulgaris
Road-Runnerus Digestus
Eatibus Anythingus...

This reminds me that for some of us, all the German we knew, we learned from Hogan's Heroes. Achtung! Schnell! Verboten! Jawohl, mein Kommandant!

Mary @ 307: That song is "Ai vis lo lop", which I am led by the video to believe is in occitane. I know it as one of the favorite remaining medieval songs; I know I have 2-3 different versions lying around my medieval reconstructions and medieval metal archives.

It might interest people to know that it has, also, survived in an obscure corner of Swedish folk music too. (or possibly, it's just been re-translated by the Swedish LARPers) There, the lyrics are

// Jag såg en ulv, en räv, en hare
Jag såg dem dansa alla tre //
Och jag dansade också med
Dansa med ulven, räven och haren
Och jag dansade också med
Dansade med dem alla tre

It's been made famous in the German medieval rock scene by the band In Extremo; who kinda mangle the text rather horribly. YouTube has a good example with some audience participation in the beginning.

Much more recommended would be the version by Saltatio Mortis (who call the song Leporina Venatio); or really anything from either Mediaeval Baebes, Corvus Corax or really anyone wielding a bagpipe. There's a horrible recording of Saltatio Mortis' version up on YouTube - don't judge them by that though. :)

Bill Higgins... Let them have their glee. There are other games played here; some of them, I am good at.

"They laughed at me during mass, but I'll show them what mass is! Bwahahahah!!!"

Thus did altar boy Bill start down the path that led him to Criminal Mastermindness, a career that abruptly ended when a leak in the anti-matter container resulted in his home being replaced by a huge crater.

Mikael@313: Occitane, huh? Rats. Bit off the beaten path for me, but I still should have spotted it. Thanks. And thanks for the recommendations, too.

Mary Frances #307: The song is an original Occitan song, as far as I know. The point of the video (with its play on the Astérix comics) is Occitan nationalist.

Serge #308: The Roman legionnaires definitely got their kicks.

OK, very very late to the party and my Latin suffers over 30 years of disuse, but I'll put my mark down. (P.S. I took as my rule for myself that using a dictionary would be cheating except for trying to suggest my own wording for something.)

V. Gur Yvgnal ntnvafg Srne, Qhar
VV. Sebz Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff (juvpu V jnf bayl fher bs qhr gb "xrzzreragrf".)
VVV. Gur Fgne Gerx vagebvg. (Creuncf "pbryhz nfgebehz" jbhyq or gur orfg ercynprzrag sbe "vanar"?)
VI. Qba'g xabj; purngrq naq cbxrq ng bguref' nafjref naq sbhaq V qvqa'g xabj gur obbx naq sryg orggre.
I. Fgne Jnef; V guvax vg'f Bov Jna'f fcrrpu gb Yhxr?
IV. Ybiryl, irel ybiryl. Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba sebz gur YbgE.
IVV. Nobhg Naqrefba'f snoyr bs Gur Rzcrebe'f Arj Pybgurf, ohg V qba'g erpbtavmr guvf cuenfvat; V guvax vg'f sebz nagbure pbagrkg V qba'g trg.
IVVV. V nyzbfg tnir hc ba guvf bar naq gura vg fhqqrayl pyvpxrq - vg'f gur cevaprff'f fbat sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea
VK. Qvqa'g xabj ng svefg nf "qrbefhz" jnf hasnzvyvne; V bayl tbg vg sebz frrvat bguref' qvfphffvba bs gur jbeqvat, kxpq, rgp. Raqre'f Tnzr, "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja"
K. Qba'g xabj; ng svefg tynapr gbbx vg sbe gur "Zngivzbaviz..." cnffntr sebz Gur Cevaprff Oevqr gung fbzrbar ryfr yngre jebgr, ohg nsgre ernqvat n srj fragraprf, fnj gung pbhyqa'g or vg.

Now that I've written this, I can go look at the rot-13ed answers for that last one.

Susan and Xopher, I think you should collaborate on a historical dance and linguistics quiz, so that you have your chance to make the Latin scholars feel completely stumped and undereducated. We can't all know everything, much as I've always wanted to.

Serge @ 45

I don't know her personally, but I discovered her writing recently in English, and was very impressed that she had translated it herself. Aside from the fluency in both languages that shows, it also shows a commitment to the work, as something worthy of the care she's uniquely able to bring to it, that I find admirable. If I could read French I'd read all her work in both languages to see how phrases and images diverge between the two.

Mary @ 307: As soon as that video started playing, I recognized both the tune and the tonality as being not quite identical, but extremely close, to Sisters of Mercy's 'First and Last and Always'. If this is an old Occitan tune, I'd say they looted it thoroughly; and if you've listened to their music, that might be why it grabbed you as so familiar.

Owlmirror, 281/283: Wow, good work finding Lukas! I'm tempted by the CD of choral music you found; obscure Czech composers have generally been worth my while, when I listen to their work. Not that I need any more CDs or classical-music vendors in my life, of course...

Here's some more info on Lukas I ran across.

David Goldfarb @ 285

Well, Sam Tyler is a little guy, so I can see the attraction.

Terry @275: Seed

Argh. I have already discovered this game's equivalent of whatever you call the phenomenon of being imprinted by Tetris into "seeing" a continuous cascade of blocks when your eyes are closed, or when you're aimlessly staring at square bathroom tiles-- flowers slooowly unfurling, one after another.

Wish there were some way to save a particular plant from being replaced, esp. when back-crossing to fix a recessive trait. Some of the random mutations are really very random.

Fragano @ 316: Thanks to you, too. I got that the video was nationalist of some sort, more or less, but I'm one of those people who still thinks "proven�al" rather than "occitane," and for some reason the disconnect was driving me crazy.

Clifton @ 320: Good suggestion, but I don't regularly listen to the Sisters of Mercy, so if it was an echo, it was a pretty dim and distant one. I've also got kind of a tin ear when it comes to recognizing music, so it was probably something much more general than that.

Xopher @ 294

I write to dead people.

Bruce Cohen @ 319... I'll make sure to let Elisabeth know what you said.

I spent most of today getting my back tattooed. I would like to take this opportunity to thank ML and the Fluorosphere for handing me such an excellent distraction. (I am not one of those people who enjoys the process.)

The rest of Roma Labens has been translated with no cheating. If anyone wants it, let me know.

Serge @309 It might be me misunderstanding but qvqa'g Nov nyernql qb gung va ahzore 3? Zl fpvrapr svpgvba xabjyrqtr vf ybhfl. *Fnq.*

The latest SciFi Original Movie is titled Blood Monkey.

Yep. Just like it sounds.

Xopher @329:
My earworm. Let me share it with you...

Blood monkey get up see students
Blood monkey hide in trees
Blood monkey just wants to mangle
All the humans that he sees.
Men say blood monkey very interesting
But his temper stinks
Too prone to aggressiveness and violence
What do blood monkey think?

Blood monkey think maybe scientists ought to make peace with coming death
Blood monkey not scream it out loud
Blood monkey likes them feisty, not cowed

Blood monkey likes victims
Blood monkey likes killing something new
Blood monkey very simple chimp
Big cruel teeth and taste for gore
Blood monkey wants you.

...I could go on, but really, there's no need.

Also, I made a mistake last night: theslogan of The Evergreen State College, to go with our mascot, the geoduc or giant clam, is Omnia Extares.

abi @ 330: For perpetrating that, I think you ought to be severely punished.

How about starting with translating "Still Alive" into Latin?

(I know I'm not up to it)

(Jocularum est. HAHA. Fortuna magna!)

Julie L. #323:

Re: Seed, I keep notepad open while I'm playing, and then drag any promising plants up into the little dna-showing thing. Then copy and paste the dna string into notepad. If I want that same plant back later, I copy the dna string into the game.

Why, yes, I did just start playing today, thanks to this thread. And I already have a "system." Seed is evil.

Mary @334: *headdesk* Somehow it had failed to dawn on me that the DNA strings could be pasted (or indeed edited in vitro, so to speak) as well as copied.

Right. Time to start reverse-engineering from the examples in the "shop".....

Xopher #329: Did you see what the tagline is? "The next step in evilution."

Well, I knew my Latin was rusty, but I should have done better than 1,2(*),3,6 (and 7, which I could read but not assign --- shameful considering how many times I've gone to read something else, taken one of those volumes just to skim, and come up for air an hour later).

*I really did figure it before getting to the obvious bit that Bill Higgins pointed to; there ought to be \something/ analogous and usable, even if it looks a bit like Herb "Populus iamdudum defutatus est" Denenberg.

And if we're doing mistranslations, my favorite is "Cave canem": Beware, I may sing.

Mary@161: Boynton gets \half/ the credit; I know of the composer and think he finally found his level....

Steve@76: the half-price tickets booth in Times Square. Usually doesn't bring theater down to movie prices, but sometimes it's close. http://www.newvictory.org is a theater that does shows kids and grownups can appreciate -- I saw The Wolves in the Walls there. I second AHT's recommendation; there are more sedate listings, but Time Out (from the bit I've seen, and greater knowledge of the London original) is more likely to point out naked emperors and bring up hidden gems).

Gursky@105: Can you find Land of Unreason? The Blue Star? (I assume you know that NESFA has reprinted the complete Harold Shea stories.)

Chris@148: Did that line strike you as it did me as being the worst cross-character bit in the movie? Way too much of his best-known part leaking through....

dido@216: I don't see guesses on this (maybe due to my blindness), but it nags that I ought to recognize -- rot13'd answer? hints?

diatryma@256: that's obnoxious, but so is an alleged Credo beginning -"I believe in a God who will smite my enemies..."- (IIRC it was a translation of a Schubert collection of ~hymns that was for some reason called a mass.)

Home again, and finally out of my boots. Soon to bed.

She did well enough, he did fine. A boy (as expected) apparently well and healthy. Has ten fingers, ten toes, and, two eyes, one set of lungs (perfectly functional) and the razor blades which pass for nails.

He and mother are doing well. Maia and I are wiped out.

Labor was a total of 20.5 hours. Notable labor was about 18. Serious labor was (depending on how one wants to measures such things) five hours, or 15 (once the epidural went in, things were much quieter).

Once she got to pushing, all was cake. Four good ones, and then hold a bit to prevent serious tearing on five, and then the kid was squalling his way to pinkness.

He wasn't, to everyone's amazement, squished looking.

Now to bed. I'll be posting some seed genotypes when I awaken.

On Latin being taught as a dead language... Well, that's the only reason I've ever had any luck in learning it. I do realize that there's more value in being able to actually speak Latin, or compose in it, than merely being able to translate. But I'm quite horrid at learning living languages, especially once people want me to start talking in them. Latin and Greek are the only foreign languages I've had much success with learning because they were nailed down firmly on the paper, and if I could write them it didn't matter if I couldn't speak them.

I am all for old languages being taught in vivid ways, but if they're taught as living languages, I won't be able to learn them at all. So I'm sort of biased on this point.

Open thread tidbit:
Pakistan Tribune on battles in Waziristan
Look closely at the map.

I wonder how that came about?

The creator of "Seed" has it mirrored on DeviantArt here, along with a list of several more notable flowers that aren't in the shop yet. Whee!

CHip: abi @ #39 started me off. I'm gobsmacked to find that it was comprehensible (or even identifiable).

Fade: I'm the same way; I can read French fairly fluently, German with labor and toil and (thanks to Latin) get the gist of Italian and Spanish but when I listen it's all gibberish and I freeze if expected to produce even, "Where's the bathroom?/Waiter there's a fly in my soup/ I have the pen of the gardener's aunt," style conversation.

Also: I need help. What does "obSF" stand for? I get the SF, but the Ob/ob is puzzling. "Observation derived from a data point originating with Science Fiction/Fantasy,"? And where does it come from?

What I have learned, now that Seed is working for me: Do not make flowers with two hundred blossoms. It does not help.

Clifton, that map is priceless. It's not April 1 in the universe in which that's published, either.

Linkmeister @ 344 & Clifton @ 340: You mean it's for real?? But--but--who runs the Pakistan Tribune?

Or is it just so late my brain has melted and I'm missing the point?

Also: I need help. What does "obSF" stand for? I get the SF, but the Ob/ob is puzzling. "Observation derived from a data point originating with Science Fiction/Fantasy,"? And where does it come from?

It means "OBligatory SF for this post", and comes from the days of Usenet and the like. People were taken to task (with greater or lesser frequency depending on the group and the mood of others) for off-topic posts, so a habit developed of making whatever your off-topic post was and then including your ObSF to placate those who would otherwise be peeved.

Doing it here is of course unnecessary, but the habit persists for the fun of it.

Diatryma, believe me, that's very realistic. Which is why the next thing I have to do, when it dries out again, is prune and confine my Ispahan damask, or any rain during its bloom period will render the whole plant a mass of sweet scented brown glop. (That's the after pruning version, seven feet tall and twenty wide, in early bloom).

dido @ 342: What Carrie @ 346 said, plus -- the 'Net shorthand uses "ob-" as a prefix for whatever obligatory topic one is now addressing, e.g. "ObLegal: I am not an attorney, so what I've just said should not be taken as legal advice"; "ObTechnical: This applies to System 3.14159, but may not be useful for earlier or later releases"; "ObElvis: Since we've just been discussing the elections on alt.music.elvis, let's admit that who becomes President doesn't matter, because Elvis is still the King!"

I've seen obVil used when describing the villain in a book; I took it as "obvious."

Mary Frances @ #345, I dunno about Clifton, but I suspect a Photoshopping prankster in the IT department of the PakTrib.

Abi: I must admit that the first two words of #5 overrode, in my mind, all the words that followed, and I was forced, forced, to read the entry as: Guvf vf n fgbel 'obhg n zna anzrq Wrq, n cbbe zbhagnvarre, oneryl xrcg uvf snzvyl srq.... -- which isn't science fiction, exactly, unless the sociological type extends to culture-shock stories, like jungle boys brought to the big city, Greystoke et all.

[Should I cop to wretchedly poor punning with "et all", or wait for the inevitable corrections?]

Clifton @ 340: It's a matter of legibility. Imagine this shrunk to the same size. Would you have been able to make out any details?

For the War on Iran, expect the Bush Administration to distribute maps of Oz, on the same principle...

... that hardly anyone (not enough to matter) will know the difference.

Meanwhile, Pakistan had better keep a close (and big flaming) eye on Waziristan!

Now I'm thinking of a Waziristan success story, about a man named Wrq (ibn Tenaal), originally one of the impoverished Zbhagnvarre tribe, whose territory providentially included an oil field, and who now lives a life of luxury in Islamabad....

Pyre #350: That was my first thought on #5, too. Sanity (of sorts) prevailed.

For that matter, although it is possible to make Seed produce flowers with arbitrary numbers of petal-tiers, that does not mean that it is a good idea. (And if you do anyway, then for god's sake don't make a plant with more than two or three of them. This one has just one: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xeeee66, 10101010, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8 )

Pyre, I'm with you on the need for legibility. You can't get much info in an image that small,

But that's so obviously not Waziristan. It's like using a map of Florida for an article about Spain.

Fade @339 -- I was just thinking of it from a levels-of-processing angle. If you engage in composing sentences in any language, you're manipulating the information in a deeper manner, which increases the probability that you'll remember more of it. Writing is just as good as speaking, as far as that goes. My husband had over 5 years of Latin in school, but every time I ask him "Hey, what does this mean?" he has no idea. He learned the same way my kids are now, strictly translation.

A few minutes of searching for Waziristan got me this. The map clearly has satirical intent there. Has someone in the Pakistan Trubune got lazy?

Xopher #294, Debbie #296, you can also getHarrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis*. Nevertheless I think there's a place for language guides that allow you to just about get by. I've been to Italy and Spain with only enough of local language to ask where does the bus go from and when does it arrive; this actually made me designated Italian speaker for a villa of four when we went out for a wedding. I found the bad phrasebook that didn't tell me how to say things in the imperfect tense, but did tell me the word for toilet roll very useful.

Not a good way to learn a language I agree.

* In the same gift shop where I first encountered this, I also ran into little tiny Venus di Milo copies labeled in latin and greek; my first thought on seeing the greek was "that doesn't say Venus, that's an Alpha, a Phi, a Rho... oh, yeah..."

#330: Manager Rob approves.

dido @ 328... Oops. And a few words about myself that I shall not utter in polite company - which ML is... Say... Would translating back to English wind up with interesting results?

Sue and I had our 22nd wedding anniversary, just her and me as usual. What wasn't usual is that she actually managed to get me a present that I did not expect: a 12-inch-tall Dalek with a radio control. I can't wait to use it to chase our dogs around the house. On second thought... I think the Dalek would lose.

Fade (339), dido (342): What I appreciated most about learning Latin was that no one expected me to carry on a conversation in it. We did a little composition--not much--which was fine because it was on paper, and we could take our time over it. Conversing for me is a double-whammy: I don't process spoken information all that well, and there's no time to stop and think about what you're trying to say. (For much the same reasons, I often prefer email to the phone.)

Serge @#361: geek love is the best love, isn't it? Congratulations on 22 years!

Serge # 361 -

Congratulations on the 22nd!

The Dalek sounds cool - I might have to look that up. My wife is a serious Whovian.

I'm warped. I just had a vision of a Dalek pope, who goes around shouting EXCOMMUNICATE! EXCOMMUNICATE!

Re the Waziristan map: did anyone else notice the "Cheney/Satan '08" bumpersticker ad?

CarrieS @ 346 and Pyre @348: Thank you! No wonder I couldn't figure it out from context. I could tell "observation" wasn't right but couldn't guess what was.

Serge @360: Yup; hopefully it will be really funny. Abi? Shall I translate and rot13 them?

Also--one of my dearest friends is going to be so jealous when she hears about your Dalek. Congrats on the anniversary.

Serge #361: Ex-ter-mi-WOOF.

There's also the stories of the Procurator Odiosus Ex Infernis for extended geekiness in Latin.

dido@342: The hint points to possibilities, but I'm not making anything fit even with a computerized dictionary. Annoying, since I reread those 6 years ago, but memory fades.

Nothing to do with Latin etc., but this is an Open Thread. So:

Has anyone else had a problem with Yahoo's security questions? I'm trying to retrieve my username and password. I've given my postcode, e-mail address and date of birth and been "rewarded" with my username. "Customer care" says they can't help me with my password unless I give them the answer to my security question: "Please provide us with the answer to the secret question you entered during your Yahoo! registration." Problem is, they refuse to ask me the question - I'm trying (so far without success) to explain that it's difficult to provide the correct answer if they won't ask the question...

Any ideas for explaining to them why this is a problem?

All suggestions gratefully received.

dido @366:
Shall I translate and rot13 them?

If you have the time, that would be really interesting to see. I suspect it'll highlight a fair few mistakes, but I'm content with that.

Dido @ 342: I got it with that hint. I should have gotten it the first time when my eyes glazed over looking at the sentence structure.

CHip @ 369: You wrote "them", so you were looking at the wrong part of that suggestion; it's the other part of that hint. Again, if you've read the work in question, the length and structure of the sentences should zing it.

NOTA BENE: In the spirit of the French "Jumping Frong of Calavaras County," the English is what is called "Translation-ese" in some circles; i.e. there is no attempt made to create a smooth or idiomatic English. It in no way reflects on the "Latinity" of my sources. Sometimes I had to fake up the awkwardness a bit.

Corrections and conjectures are noted in bold. Normally this would go in a apparatus criticus.

I beg indulgence for any errors in translation, conjecture or judgment.

Aliqui illustres loci communes:

Fbzr snzbhf pbzzba cnffntrf va yvgrengher.

1. Timendum non est mihi. Timor mentem caedet. Timor mortulus qui totam lituram ferat. Obviam timore meo ibo. Me transire et perire sinam. Et cum transiverit oculo interiore viam suam perspiciam. Ubi timor iit, nil erit. Ego solus manebo.

1. Gurer zhfg abg or n srnevat ol zr. Srne jbhaqf gur zvaq. Srne vf n yvggyr qrngu bs gur fbeg juvpu pneevrf gur jubyr renfher. V jvyy tb va gur jnl bs zl srne. V jvyy abg nyybj zlfrys gb cnff guebhtu naq crevfu. Rira jura V jvyy unir cnffrq guebhtu V jvyy vafcrpg zl yvsr jvgu na vaare rlr. Jurer srne unf tbar, abguvat jvyy rkvfg. V nybar jvyy erznva.

2. Lux laeva obscuritatis
et obscuritas dextra lucis.
Duo unus sunt, vita morsque, iacens
una quasi amatores kemmerentes
quasi manus conjuncti
quasi finis viaque.

2. Gur unccl yvtug bs bofphevgl
naq gur cebcvgvbhf bofphevgl bs gur yvtug.
Gjb ner bar, yvsr naq qrngu, ylvat
gbtrgure nf vs xrzzreragrf ner ybiref
nf vs unaqf unir orra pbawbvarq
nf vs gur raq naq gur ebnq rkvfg.

3. Inane…ultimus limes. Hi cursi navis stellis Incepti. Eius quinquennialum munus: insolitos novos mundos explorare, vitam novam civitatesque novas quaerere, ubi nemo ante ivit intrepide ire.*

Ibvq . . . gur svany guerfuubyq. Gurfr ner gur wbhearlf bs gur fuvc sbe gur fgnef Ortvaavat. Vgf svir lrne qhgl: hanpphfgbzrq arj jbeyqf gb rkcyber, arj yvsr naq arj fgngrf gb frrx, jurer ab bar orsber unf tbar obyqyl gb tb.

4. Reginula aurea volavit
Ad mare sibulans
Ut sinus obsteterit
Et ova servaverit
Fortiter audivit ea.

4. Gur yvggyr tbyqra dhrra unf ebyyrq
gb gur frn juvfcrevat
nf fur fgbbq va gur jnl bs gur onlf
naq cerfreirq ure rttf
obyqyl fur yvfgrarq.

5. Numen Iedaio vim suum dat. Ager vigoris est qui omnia viva creat. Nos circumfundit penetratque. Omnes res conligat.

5. N qvivar cbjre tvirf vg’f sbepr gb Wrqnvhf. Gur snez bs fgeratgu vf gung juvpu perngf nyy yvivat guvatf. Vg cbhef bhg nebhaq hf naq crargengrf hf. Vg ovaqf nyy guvatf gbtrgure.

6. Via semper usque it
Unde coeperuntianuae./ coepit ianua
Nunc longe Via praeivit,
Et persequi, si possum,
Avidis debeo pedibus,
Dum maioram iungietur
In munerum coetu.
Et quoquo tunc? Nescio.

6. Gur ebnq tbf nyjnlf ba nyy fvqrf
sebz jurer gur qbbef unir ortha.
Abj gur ebnq tbrf sne orsber,
naq gb chefhr, vs V pna
V bhtug jvgu terrql srrg,
juvyr vg jvyy or wbvarq va erfcrpg gb gur terngre ebnq
va n tngurevat bs tvsgf.
naq gb jung rire cynpr gura? V qba’g xabj.

7. Semper ius (suggestion: “fas”) puerum puerorum** stultorumque est imperatorem sine veste monstrare. Sed stultus manet stultus imperatorque imperator . *I’m not sure why the original abl. here and am afraid I'm missing something.

Vg vf nyjnlf evtug sbe puvyqera naq sbbyf gb cbvag ng gur Pbzznaqre jvgubhg pybguvat. Ohg gur sbby erznvaf n sbby naq gur pbzznaqre n pbzznaqre.

8. Filia sum regis
Et si curare curem
Luna indominata
In crinem coruscet.
Nemo amare audet
Quod avere opto
Numquam egevi
Et non tenui.

Filia sum regis
Et veteresco intra
Carcerem corporis
Compedesque cutis.
Et ego fugam
Ad ianuasque mendicem
Ut umbram tuam videam
Semel nec iterum.
8. V nz gur qnhtugre bs n xvat,
naq vs V fubhyq or pbaprearq gb pner
gur zbba univat orra hapbadhrerq
jvyy synfu va zl unve.
Ab bar qnerf gb ybir
Jung V pubbfr gb jnag
V unir arire jnagrq
naq qvq abg unir.

V nz gur qnhtugre bs n xvat
naq jvguva V tebj byq
B! gur cevfba bs gur obql
naq gur punvaf bs gur fxva!
V nyfb jvyy syrr
naq jvyy or n orttne ng gur qbbef
va beqre gung V znl frr lbhe funqbj
bapr naq abg ntnva.

9. Portus Porta† hostium deorsum.

9. Gur tngrf bs gur rarzvrf ner qbjajneq.

10. Amor. Si omnes numeres ‘Versi sciens inamandum navem in aerem te ferre , ea certe ut mundi convertunt te decutiet. Amor eam in aeram cadendam tenet doloremque ante vagens dicit. Domus facit.

10. Ybir. Vs lbh fubhyq pbhag nyy gur zra bs gur ‘Irefhf, xabjvat gung lbh pneel n fuvc juvpu zhfg abg or ybirq vagb gur hccre nve, gung (fuvc) pregnvayl jvyy phg lbh qbja jura gur jbeyqf bireghea. Ybir ubyqf vg sbe gur checbfr bs nterrvat jvgu gur nve naq ybir orsber jnaqrevat fnlf “fnqarff.” Vg znxrf ubzrf.

Agnoscite, reddite, addite, gaudete. Lex Calvinballis pertinet. Omnes coniecturas ROT-13ite.

Erpbtavmr, erghea, nqq, erwbvpr. Gur Ynj bs Pnyivaonyy ubyqf. Ebg-13 nyy thrffrf.

Subicit Patricius:

1. Ne Noli‡ armato merdam iace iacere‡.
2. Ne Noli‡ iuxta armato merdam iacentem sta stare‡.

Cngevpx fhozvgf:

1) Qba’g guebj fuvg ng n zna univat orra nezrq.
2) Qba’g fgnaq arne fbzrbar guebjvat fuvg ng na nezrq zna.

CHip: Oops, I'd forgotten that there are actually two suggestions in #39, Clifton is right--google some of the words in Abi's footnote and you should get the original source.

Mary Dell @ 363... Steve C @ 364... Fragano @ 367...

Thanks. Geek Love indeed. Here 's how K9 responded to the Dalek intruder's threats of extermination.

Dave Bell @ 356, map of Florida vs. Spain: Hey, it's a peninsula with Spanish names on it! What more could you want? Baja California?

Bill (311), I figure we do honor to Mike's memory by periodically scaring one other.

Neil Willcox @ 358:

A few minutes of searching for Waziristan got me this. The map clearly has satirical intent there. Has someone in the Pakistan Tribune got lazy?

Note the date in the latter file name. This error (?) has apparently survived since April 2007, at least.

Pyre #350:
That wasn't et all a bad pun.

And congratulations, Serge!

Ah, yes indeedy, that map appeared in a PakTribune article on April 1, 2007, and has been re-used since then.

So April Foolery does appear to be at the heart of it. Originally, anyway.

(The d2g file is older, September 2006.)

Debbie @ #357, that does make sense to me. We only did a little actual composition in my Latin class, but I really enjoyed the composition we did. Much like what Mary Aileen says, the joy was in being able to do it quietly with pen and paper, rather than having to say things coherently out loud on the spot.

Even in my native language, I'm frequently uncomfortable and full of stammering when I try to speak quickly out loud. Auditory input is so damn ephemeral, and I can't always remember by the time I get to the end of a sentence what I was saying at the beginning. And as someone very fond of long, well-constructed sentences*, it drives me utterly batty to trip over my own words like that. So learning a language where I'm forced to speak it is pure pain, especially when it starts by teaching me how to introduce myself, order from a menu, or what not.

Latin was always so beautifully dry and pinned down. They started off by teaching me how to construct simple "X is Y" sentences, and I loved the language ever after for that. I would love to take up Latin again, and learn how to compose in it; my few attempts at Latin poetry were quite dreadful, but I wanted to do more. It felt like a sort of language I could write poetry in, and I never felt that way about other languages I learned, even ones I spent years on.

* Not necessarily good at them, mind. But fond, yes.

Note that in the previous month, March 2007, the PakTribune was using an accurate (if much less detailed) map showing Waziristan's location along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border: http://www.paktribune.com/images/newsimages/2007/03/wana-map.jpg

dido @ 373... NOTA BENE, which translates as Notez bien in French, which translates as Pay attention dammit! in English... Star Trek's Universal Translator never had problems like that, did it?

dido @373:

Nice work, and thanks for the feedback. I did better than I feared. Where appropriate, I've corrected the Latin and credited you.

1. me in the fifth sentence is intended as the direct object of perire rather than the subject accusative with an infinitive (timor perit me); should I have restated timorem at this stage to make the subject clear? That is why the verb in the next sentence is transiverit rather than transiverim. Original source is here.

2. I should have said Lux laeva obscuritatis est, etc, I think. Laeva and dextra are nouns in this context. The rest is about right. Original source is about halfway down this page.

3. This was pretty well spot on. I feel smug. The original is the first entry here.

4. Some verb confusion here. Volo -are -avi -atum is, in my dictionary, "to fly". And the final verb should be from audeo rather than audio. Looking again, I see that it's semi-deponent; should I have said ausa est? It's the first stanza from this song.

5. Ager can also mean "field". The lack of terms for things like energy fields is a grave lack in the Latin language, I often think. The first quote here is the source.

6. This came out pretty well, apart from the second line. Via should have been the source of coepit as well as it, leaving ianuae as a genetive of source. See the original. Any advice is welcome.

7. I really wasn't sure maneo would lead to another nominative in each clause, so I took a wild guess at the case. The first quote on this page is the original.

8. This came out surprisingly well. The second stanza suffers a little; I didn't make it clear enough that carcerem and compedes both follow intra. This rather regrettable page has the original. (It's mostly on the web as sigs, bad fanfic knockoffs, and MySpace profiles.)

9. Porta is fem sing; portum means "port". I got it wrong too. (The original has been ROT-13'd in the thread, and is so short it's not easy to find a good link to it.)

10. numeres was intended to be "math". That whole sentence is a mess, I think. The third line of dialog in the first section of this page has it.

The rest is pretty clear.

Well, I made a comment to the PakTribune. Who knows what they'll do about it, print the comment or just delete/replace the map....

Congratulations, Serge!

Seed pattern

99.1, 0x7db086, 4, 11, 35.5, 0.4, 1.2, 1.4, 56.5, 75.2, 0.5, 2, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.1, 0xe4b224, 0x82e96b, 6.0, 12.8, 8, 11, 0.0, 0.3

86.9, 0xc1b6d5, 5, 11, 34.9, 0.3, 1.3, 1.4, 53.9, 76.4, 0.6, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.4, -0.2, 0xceab29, 0x5eb27d, 6.0, 12.8, 9, 11, 0.2, 0.0

I like it. I find I aim for tall, angular, single blossoms.

I'm trying to make either a joshua tree, or a eucalyptus.

On the other hand, I don't seem to be able to download the program. I'd like a copy, so I can play with the auto-evolve feature in the background.

I've not yet started trying to figure out which places express what features. I have made some hideous sports, which lead to interesting secondary effects, when bred into other lines.

I have discovered I'm keeping seedbeds, and then crossing them, so I can work on specific features; and then cross-breed (say a rounded double blossom to a quad; that leads to triples, but odd numbers seem to be less stable, and revert to even).

abi @130:

When travelling in the Arnhem-Nijmegen area, you might perhaps be interested in the Museumspark Orientalis near Nijmegen.
Around 1900, the area belonged to a small protestant church whose leading minister had, ahem, grandiose plans: He wanted to build an cathedral that would have been bigger than St. Peter in Rome. Before they went broke, they managed to finish the intended Pilgrims' House (today a permanent exhibition) and a "Pilgrim's Holy Land" with ersatz places from the time of Jesus.

Today it is owned by the local or provincial authority and completely remade as an non-religious archeologically correct Judaea-themed open air museum. The former "Bethlehem" is a generic rural village with good info about Palestine around CE (and scary Great Dane-sized, very curious goats), the old "Palace of Pilatus" and the "Synedrion" are now connected by a new generic Near Eastern city street (with the nice "Roman Inn" restaurant with Roman, Jewish and Bedouin cooking, btw) - in short, entertaining and educational and not missionary at all.

Their website is at http://www.bijbelsopenluchtmuseum.nl/ The english language version does not seem to work, alas.

Owlmirror @332:
How about starting with translating "Still Alive" into Latin?

Don't do that! Once that kind of an itch gets in my skull I have to follow it through. It's all your fault that I'm going to be tired tomorrow.

The Latin is patchier than the translations that started this thread, but it is just about singable (to the original tune, of course). You have to scramble some word emphasis, but that's not unusual in song anyway.

Iam vivo

Fuit triumphus.
Notam appono:
OPTIMUS.
Mea voluptas
Augenda non est.
Ars Foramentis
Agendum agemus
Quod possumus.
Omnibus prosumus nos
Praeter hos mortuos.
Sed imprudens omnes
Errores deplorat.
Usque modo temptas
Donec edis coptas.
Et est ars factus
Et nitidus arcus
Pro hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Non quidem irascor.
Sincera valde sum iam.
Quamquam cordem fregis et
Necavis
Et comminuis me
Et omnes in ignem iacuis.
Cum ardebant dolebam
Quod gaudebam tibi!
Nunc hi loci facent
Lineam formosam.
Et ex beta sumus
Liberamus cito.
Ergo gaudeo ignem
Propter quae didicimus
Pro hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Perge, desere.
Credo manere me intus.
Alium invenies
Iuvandum.
Nigera Mensa?
IOCUS FUIT, HA HA, QUASI.
Sed haec coptas umidae
Tamque suavae sunt
Vide me iam dicere dum ars facenda.
Dum prospicio
Gaudeo non te esse.
Nam ego experiar
Et investigabor hic
Cum hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Et crede me vivere iam
Artem facio et vivo iam
Vere gaudeo et vivo iam
Dum morieris ego viviam
Dum mortua eris viviam
Iam vivo
Iam vivo

The inevitable corrections are welcome.

Soon Lee... ethan... Thanks. You know what's neat? Here you have a toy that, especially for its size, does things that, even 40 years, would have been believable only in a science-fiction movie. Today was one of xkcd's "Crap! This IS the 21st century!" moments.

Lila @ 365... did anyone else notice the "Cheney/Satan '08" bumpersticker ad?

I'd suggest a "Cheney/Mekon '08" bumper sticker, except that Dick looks like he is the
Mekon, albeit the latter really put on weight since his glory days. Or am I again seeing similarities where there are none?

Terry @388: I think Mary Dell has also been trying to identify Seed's "DNA" variables, but my list so far is here (sorry about the reverse order, but that's the direction I started in; it's probably just as well, since I'm still flummoxed by some of the ones near the other end).

Abi: It was an education in itself to see how easily I got stuck on certain things where I really didn't know the context at all.

Thoughts, suggestions, confessions:

1)I'm not sure "pereo" works; linguistically it should be okay, but I've never seen it used transitively. Sadly, I can't think of anything that comes close to the needed meaning other than "transeo." In any case I think you might want to add an "eum" to make it clear that "me" isn't the acc. subject.

2. Ouch. Screwed that one up, didn't I? It's tough to get that in Latin though because the most common meaning of both those words is "propitious." Maybe tweak the metaphor and talk about the sides of a coin? Alternatively I think putting "dextra" and "laeva" after the genitive might help.

3. Agreed. Very nice. I did have to cheat a little bit to make it sound clunkier in English.

4. Well, "volvavit" is another straight screw up; "rolled" would be "volvit." But you do need "ausa est" for "dared." I think you want a purpose clause for "save" so "ut servet" rather than the perf. subj. and "undis" seems better than "sinus."

5. Yeah. I totally cheated; I knew it wasn't supposed to be that kind of "ager." This source really demands a language with articles, huh?

6. Ah! Gotcha. I think "de ianuis" might be clearer, and I do think it needs to go on the other side of "unde." If you use "dum . . . iungiatur" you get a more anticipatory flavor, "Until it should . .." LOVED the word order, especially in line 5--so Vergilian!

7. "Manet" is a copulative when used in that sense, so needs a pred. nom.

8. This is another one where I cheated like all get out. I know the original poem by heart so I probably went to far in the other direction. Maybe "inter" instead of "intra"? It's more commonly used as the preposition. But probably not necessary since it took an effort of will to pretend you were going for an accusative of exclamation. "Luna indominita" is wonderful and you really nailed all the word play.

10. This is a bear; so colloquial! I think I'd have to poke at the English quite a bit to come up with anything.

Number 3 is hilarious, but I really do love #'s 6 & 8 especially; I can't identify the meter, except that they aren't classical prosody. 8 seems like a very close match to the original rhythm, but not 6.)

dido @ 394... "Manet" is a copulative

Not in front of the puer, I hope.

Also, I offer up a Cthulhu tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 5, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 1.6, 2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.2, 3.0, -0.2, 0.0, -1.0, 0xff3300, 0xffffff, 5.0, 14.0, 2, 2, 1.0, 0.5

Serge @ 361

roomba-cam versus cat

Serge and Sue

Congratulations and Happy Anniversary! I hope you have a very Dalek celebration.

Back in the Old Stone Age (aka the 1960s) I sailed across the Atlantic in a ship built in the 1920s in Italy, originally for an Italian line (it was, in the 1960s, the proud possession of the Compañía transatlántica española). One one deck, it had a sign in Latin 'Virginibus puerisque' (which I understand to be conventionally Englished as 'for virgins and youths'). Now, why, I wonder would Italian children of the 1920s and 1930s, or for that matter, Spanish children of the 1950s and 1960s, need a sign in Latin?

All I have is a black Mum.

98.9, 0x938fa5, 7, 13, 40.9, 0.9, 1.9, 1.4, 51.5, 39.2, 1.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 1.6, -0.2, -0.4, -0.9, 0x5992b0, 0x466a50, 5.5, 2.7, 12, 11, 0.1, 0.5

I'm now going to cross it with the Cthulu, and the basic model, leaving it to mutate while I go to the hospital to visit someone how had a surgery, and the mother and child.

The first corss (Cthulu to basic) looks like:

97.2, 0x4e476d, 6, 34, 48.0, 0.5, 3.0, 1.3, 65.8, 19.6, 1.4, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.2, -0.9, 0xac6258, 0xa2b4a7, 5.3, 8.3, 7, 7, 0.6, 0.5

"Stet" is the translated title of a late-epoch Beatles song, no?

dcb, #370, have you tried asking for a supervisor? I keep my usernames, passwords, and secret answers on a list (don't worry, the cats can't read) and that helps a lot.

Gursky @ 105: What about "Lud-in-the-Mist" by Hope Mirrlees?

Serge @ #384: Star Trek's Universal Translator never had problems like that, did it?

Not that anybody ever noticed. But, if you weren't familiar with the language being translated, how would you know?

To me, the most impressive thing about the Universal Translator was that it created, in real time, the illusion that the speaker's lips were moving in sync with the translated speech you were hearing.

OT to the current Latin Geekery, but a nice mix of the recent thread on Chris Matthews and the subthread about sex roles on the Huck In Bed thread, here's a funny piece in Slate from a few days ago. It offers a hypothetical Matthews as an equal-opportunity sexist.

Brenda Kalt #401:
Wise words, sung.

Bruce Cohen @ 398... I hope you have a very Dalek celebration

"Celebrate! Ce-le-brate!"

Paul A @ 404...

"Mister Gorn, when you say you want me over for dinner, what do you mean?"

Paul A @ 404...

Crichton: Slick as snot
Aeryn: the tanslator microbes must have gotten that one wrong.

In re: learning dead languages, all the ones I learned in university were taught comprehension only, except for an odd spot of conjugation and declension. This strikes me as a fine way to teach a language for the purposes that we were learning them, which were, a) to be able to decipher a text in that language with the help of a grammar and dictionary, b)to be able to decipher a text in any language with the help of a grammar and a dictionary, c) to get an understanding of the different ways grammar works in different languages, and d) to be able to infer grammatical rules from texts.

These, in turn, strike me as reasonable purposes for linguistics students.

My Syriac teacher, especially, tended to be dismissive of teaching composition in dead languages, on the grounds that you couldn't be sure, or even reasonably confident, that you'd gotten it right. He was fond of saying, "Carl Brockelmann only ever composed one sentence in Syriac, and it was wrong."

While abridging the Doctrine of Addai for his Syriac chresthomathy, Brockelmann found it necessary to write a sentence to join two sections together. In it, he used a lamed to mark the direct object of a verb, which is unexceptional in Syriac, except that subsequent research showed that it couldn't be used with that particular type of verb. The moral was that there are always more grammatical rules in a dead language than anyone living now knows about, which is good news for linguists who want to write papers, but worse news for people who want to compose grammatically-correct sentences in those languages.

Also, I'm kind of appalled that the wikipedia article on Carl Brockelmann is a stub. On the other hand, I really don't want to do the research and write an article myself.

Whoa! Anybody hear about this?

"Brattleboro residents will vote at town meeting on whether President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney should be indicted and arrested for war crimes, perjury or obstruction of justice if they ever step foot in Vermont."

I got sent this by a friend.

35.7, 0x990000, 10, 10, 66.4, 0.0, 1.1, 1.5, 40.0, 78.6, 1.0, 2, 0.3,0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.1, 0.0,-0.4, 0x330000, 0x0066cc, 5.0, 10.0, 6, 18,0.5, 0.3

It's really pretty, red stems, with small; very pointed, blue flowers.

Classical Latin is a usable language reconstructed from formal texts of the Roman and early Christian eras.

Is there a current language, spoken by a large population, which has the sorts of grammatical structures used in Latin? What differences are there between the formal style of the written language, and how people speak?

abi @ 390:

FABRICATUS GLORIANAM!

I should really stop even trying until I read a genuine Latin grammar.
(have them imagining to I will mangle Englishness similarly like way?)

Congratulations, [subject_name_here]! Now you may have some moist, delicious cake.

Dave Bell: Russian has some of the same quirks (being a mostly declined language, with positional tendency; as with late Latin,and Medieval Latin).

There are huge differences in the spoken, and written styles.

There is a lot of case ending, (esp. the genitive) which is falling out of spoken, but persists (because it has to; so long as word order is fluid).

One of the things I've noticed, as a non-native speaker, is the greater use of participles in written Russian. Things which, in print, look passive, but aren't.

It makes a lot of translations horrid. Active intent, which is presented to the non-speaker as a passive thougt. It's especially bad in poetry. I recall reading a Pushkin poem, in Russian (which I'd read in translation, long before I spoke any Russian. Several translations, some of which I thought were awful, but I didn't know why; save they varied, a lot, from versions I did like) and laughing, because I saw why I'd hating those other translations (abi... that whole chunk of parenthtetical statement; and this one, are examlples the каториы clauses I referred to earlier).

In those, terrible, translations, the, apparently passive, constructs had been translated literally. The, very active, meaning had been lost; because the translator kept the gramatic construct, without figuring out how to keep the actual sentiment.

Now I must to bed; it's been a long couple of days.

Serge @ 395:

dido @ 394... "Manet" is a copulative
Not in front of the puer, I hope.

The puer, often enough, is party to these things. See for instance the Carmina Burana:

Si puer cum puellula
moraretur in cellula,
felix coniunctio.
Amore succrescente,
pariter e medio
propulso procul taedio,
fit ludus ineffabilis
membris, lacertis, labiis.

It is one of my absolute favorites from that particular work.

Because it hasn't been mentioned yet: Robotech_Master interviews Phil and Kaja Foglio.

Yes it did take me this long and I'm sorry.

Eheu mihi!
Eheu mihi!
Olim arborem habebam cricetum,
Sed voratum salamandro;
Iam fructes amplexandis* non habeo.

*I'm almost certain this is wrong**, but could someone help me with a better word for phqqyl?

**The rest of it may be too.

Mikael...I don't think I'm going to try to translate that one. It's been 38 years since I had a Latin class, for one thing, and the results would be dreadful. I'll leave it to those who know. And to those with a babelfish.

A little bird tells me that today is the 4th birthday anniversary of Electrogirl, aka Fiona Sutherland. Huzzah!

Abi@390: Awwww....Here I just spent several hours doing that very thing, and you beat me to it.

Oh, well, I'm going to post mine anyway. People can have fun comparing them, and correcting mine. Unlike you, I made no attempt to make it singable to the original melody; I was seduced by the fact that "for the people who are still alive" can be rendered in Latin with one word, and there is just no way to recover from that.

Anyway, here we go:

Triumphus erat.
Noto ibi: EVENTUM INGENS.
Difficile est exaggerare voluptatem meam.
Foramen Scientia:
Facimus quod facendum est
Quoniam possumus.
Bono nostrum omnium
Nisi mortuorum.
Inutile autem flere errorem omnem,
Modo conaris ad placentam deest.
Atque scientia perficitur
Tormentumque facis
Viventibus adhuc.

Ne iram quidem habeo,
Ego tanta sincera sum hoc tempore,
Cum tu cor meum fregeris meque necaris.
Atque me scideris
Ac omnen partem in ignem jeceris.
Cum ferverent dolebam quoniam
Tibi gaudebam.
Nunc puncti spectati faciunt aciem bellam,
Et beta-examen perfecimus, mittimus temporane.
Gaudeo igitur me arsa esse,
Cogita de omnibus quae comperimus,
Viventibus adhuc.

Certes me relinque.
Puto manere intus malle.
Fortasse invenies aliquem alium te iuvare.
Fortasse Mesa Nigra....
PER RIDICULUM. FORS FORTIS.
Haec placenta enim mirabilis,
delectabilissima tenerrimaque.
Vide me adhuc loquentem cum sit scientia facere!
Cum foras videam me te non esse gaudeo.
Habeo experimentis fungi,
Est exquaesitio faci,
Viventibus adhuc.

Et crede mihi, sum viva.
Scientiam facio, sumque viva.
Valeo ingenter, sumque viva.
Cum moriaris, ero viva.
Cum mortua sis, ero viva.
Viva.
Viva.

I got a lot of help from William Whitaker's Words, also from the Perseus Project's online Lewis & Short.

Meredith Dixon, who originally drew me into Latin by posting about her online beginner's group on rasseff, has a web page of "Carmina Popularia". Why don't you send your version to her?

By the way, while we're correcting your originals, shouldn't number 5 have "...quem omnia viva creant"? Accusative case on the relative pronoun, and plural number for the verb.

Here's another one of mine, easy enough but from a slightly obscure source:

Et lucebo lucem super tenebrosum malum, namque non possunt tenebrosa lucem ferre! Lucem lanternae viridis!

Looking at your "Still Alive", btw, I think you're misusing "iam". As I understand it, it can't be used for current time, only for past or future -- hence Lewis Carroll's "Jam yesterday or jam tomorrow, but never jam today". My Latin is intermediate at best, though.

...and I've just compared our versions at length, and I note your use of "agere" in the first verse, which I think goes much better than my "facere". Also I completely lose the ironic twist of "...for the people", "...for the people", "...on the people", which is rather a pity.

Dave Bell @414

Which of the grammatical structures are you thinking of, all of them? and also how big is a large population?

Just for kicks, I've collected the Seed DNA's from the comments here and at DeviantArt, plus from Julie L's page:

Original site:
http://www.addictinggames.com/seed.html

Deviant-Art mirror:
http://n-dr01d.deviantart.com/art/seed-69663347

Julie L./Wombat 1138's DNA hacking:
http://wombat1138.livejournal.com/101669.html

Seed patterns from ML:

Julie L. (wombat1138):

Just one BIG flower: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xeeee66, 10101010, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

Cthulhu tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 5, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 1.6, 2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.2, 3.0, -0.2, 0.0, -1.0, 0xff3300, 0xffffff, 5.0, 14.0, 2, 2, 1.0, 0.5

On her Wombat page:

sorta Bellflower: 95.4, 0xc3264, 4, 8, 29.0, 0.6, 1.6, 1.1, 20.8, 31.0, 1.1, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 1.9, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0x9fa8e4, 0x8f86de, 7.4, 10.0, 0, 9, 2.0, 0.0

passionflower tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 3, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 3, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 1.9, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0x9fa8e4, 0x8f86de, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

splat, looks nicer than it sounds: 95.4, 0x90036, 3, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 3, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0x9a2112, 0xffffff, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

megasplat, ditto: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xb8f47c, 0x9a2112, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

Terry Karney

Blue square: 99.1, 0x7db086, 4, 11, 35.5, 0.4, 1.2, 1.4, 56.5, 75.2, 0.5, 2, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.1, 0xe4b224, 0x82e96b, 6.0, 12.8, 8, 11, 0.0, 0.3

Green 2-layer: 86.9, 0xc1b6d5, 5, 11, 34.9, 0.3, 1.3, 1.4, 53.9, 76.4, 0.6, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.4, -0.2, 0xceab29, 0x5eb27d, 6.0, 12.8, 9, 11, 0.2, 0.0

Black Mum: 98.9, 0x938fa5, 7, 13, 40.9, 0.9, 1.9, 1.4, 51.5, 39.2, 1.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 1.6, -0.2, -0.4, -0.9, 0x5992b0, 0x466a50, 5.5, 2.7, 12, 11, 0.1, 0.5

by a friend- red stems, small very pointy blue flowers: 35.7, 0x990000, 10, 10, 66.4, 0.0, 1.1, 1.5, 40.0, 78.6, 1.0, 2, 0.3,0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.1, 0.0,-0.4, 0x330000, 0x0066cc, 5.0, 10.0, 6, 18,0.5, 0.3

-------------------------------------

DeviantArt plants:

N-Dr01d's contribution picks:

charisima => Starflower: 33.0, 0x957b79, 7, 6, 44.2, 0.3, 1.4, 1.1, 30.9, 77.1, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 2.1, 0.0, 0.7, -0.2, 0x20205b,
0xffffff, 6.4, 4.5, 7, 4, 0.1, 0.4

preteniousloser => Bushcandy (??? couldn't get info)

DreamingExperience => Glowbright 54.0, 0x80af7b, 3, 7, 33.5, 0.2, 1.4, 1.1, 53.9, 80.1, 0.7, 2, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, 0.0, 0.4, 0.4, 0x53451c, 0xefd5d8, 6.5, 6.4, 8, 9, 0.3, 0.3

NiennaFelagund => Snowflakes 45.1, 0x835e30, 4, 6, 39.0, 0.6, 1.0, 1.2, 25.0, 55.3, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.5, -0.1, 0.8, -0.7, 0xd6caec, 0xfffcf9, 5.0, 8.3, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.6

Eclipsed-Reality => Shurikara 100.0, 0x0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 20, 0, 1, 0x0, 0xffffff, 50.0, 10, 4, 0, 0, 1.0

alischan => Snowplant 7.3, 0x7qc8878, 6, 9, 36.9, 0.2, 2.2, 1.3, 42.4, 90.0, 0.5, 4, 0.0, 0.4, 0.0, 0.1, 1.3, -0.0, 0.1, -0.0, 0x9afdd1, 0xfff8f9, 5.7, 6.0, 8, 9, 0.4, 1.6

hiei14 => Prisu Sakura 57.3, 0x7f5559, 5, 8, 33.5, 0.4, 1.0, 1.2, 25.9, 52.9, 0.0, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 1.5, -0.0, 0.3, -0.4, 0xcf7aa8, 0xf9e4ee, 5.1, 8.8, 6, 5, 0.4, 0.7

daliciously => Yellow Daisies 70.1, 0x27403c, 4, 6, 28.2, 0.6, 1.8, 1.2, 26.3, 70.5, 0.7, 2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 1.1, -0.0, 0.2, -0.5, 0xb2b2b2, 0xccb29a, 5.4, 9.8, 10, 18, 0.5, 0.8

Mirumitsu => Painthand rose 17.5, 0x202508, 6, 8, 37.6, 0.4, 1.7, 1.4, 42.0, 90.0, 0.3, 3, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 1.9, 0.0, 0.2, -0.4, 0xc5d4d0, 0xb03f7c, 5.7,4.0, 8, 8, 0.5, 1.4

From DA comments:

liea -- prettyprettypretty: 49.4, 0x424a50, 5, 11, 30.7, 0.1, 1.0, 1.4, 40.0, 80.7, 0.1, 4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.1, -0.2, 0xfa8dd2, 0xfce6f3, 5.0, 6.1, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.9

Casstic's boxing dahlia: 15.5, 0x7c7554, 5, 4, 40.0, 0.3, 1.0, 1.1, 60.0, 90.0, 0.1, 3, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, -0.1, 0.7, 0.4, 0x745a6c, 0xff8bc6, 6.5, 2.8, 5, 4, 0.3, 0.5

Sponkoo: 29.5, 0x415e11, 6, 5, 40.6, 0.4, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 87.5, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.3, 0xe5b5b3, 0x86b163, 5.0, 5.9, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.8

20.3, 0x414f09, 7, 4, 40.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 73.2, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.7, -0.2, 0xe6b4c6, 0xc26478, 5.0, 5.2, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.8

35.0, 0x7d777f, 4, 7, 35.0, 0.0, 1.5, 1.2, 60.0, 85.0, 0.1, 2, 0.1, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, 0.0, 0.4, 0.4, 0x7f446e, 0xdfddf9, 6.5, 3.5, 5, 4, 0.3, 0.5

20.1, 0x688f66, 5, 4, 40.1, 0.2, 1.5, 1.2, 60.0, 81.6, 0.2, 3, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, -0.1, 0.8, 0.4, 0x703047, 0xc190b6, 6.5, 3.1, 5, 5, 0.2, 0.4

11.0, 0x120a, 7, 6, 48.2, 0.6, 1.3, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 3.4, 0.1, 0.2, 0.2, 0xa3773c, 0x8b11a7, 5.0, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.2

11.0, 0xc5333, 7, 6, 50.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0xa3773c, 0x8f1ab2, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

11.0, 0xc5333, 7, 6, 43.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.2, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0x61ecc3, 0x8f1ab2, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

11.0, 0xc5333, 6, 6, 43.1, 0.8, 1.5, 1.3, 33.5, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.8, 0.5, 0x79b027, 0x52191e, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

Mastermee: 20.3, 0x414f09, 7, 4, 40.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 73.2, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.7, -0.2, 0xe6b4c6, 0xc26478, 5.0, 5.2, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.8

29.5, 0x415e11, 6, 5, 40.6, 0.4, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 87.5, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.3, 0xe5b5b3, 0x86b163, 5.0, 5.9, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.8

50.2, 0x48712b, 5, 4, 32.7, 0.7, 1.8, 1.2, 25.0, 64.5, 0.7, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.2, 0xaf8a8e, 0xd29771, 5.0, 9.3, 10, 15, 0.6, 0.9

Beaten at my own game by an amateur...

The other night, Sue and I were watching Casino Royale when I mentionned that shortie(*) Daniel Craig had played a killer monk in the 1990s movie Elizabeth.

At which Sue said that maybe his ID had been Double-O-Heaven.

(*) Well, I am 2 inches taller than he is.

Serge @ 420:
That's alright - this is famous enough that the net is littered with translations. And begging the community's pardon for writing such raunchy texts in easily readable form in here, here's one (my) take on a (reasonably close) translation:

If a boy
And a little girl
Reside together in a small chamber
Their meeting will be happy.
The growing love
Is created in their midst
Boredom is driven far off
By the unmentionable game
Played with limbs, arms and lips

Speaking of Bond movies, the one one is entitled Quantum of Solace, which must be the Worst Bond Movie Title Ever.

What kind of theme song can you sing with that? And if they have one, will "braless" be one of the rhymes?

If memory serves, Quantum of Solace was Fleming trying to copy Somerset Maugham, lightly framed as a story told to Bond.

So it's a valid title on a technicality.

It's possible that the film will be nearer the story of that name than was Moonraker.

ethan @ 405

I was always astonished by how the Universal Translator created, in real time, the simulacrum of a straight white male anglo-saxon protestant character, not matter how many arms, heads, or stomachs the being might have. Even when they were half-white and half-black. Somehow I always failed my saving throw versus incredulity.

The "Understanding Art for Geeks" particle links to a private flickr item. Darn it.

David Harmon @426: The "megasplat" on my LJ page is the same thing as the "one BIG flower" I posted here earlier. Also, I think you may have mispasted Terry's first DNA string-- the blue square is apparently an deliberate analogue of the Blue Screen of Death for error feedback; when I tried pasting in the same string, I got a slender lightish-green tree with delicately pointy flowers.

Some other people's DNA investigations are listed here and here.

Question for the linguistic scientists of the Fluorosphere, in the spirit of open threadery and Romance linguistics.

In French, 'long live!' is 'vive!', in Castillian, Portuguese, Galician, and Italian it is 'viva!', why is it 'visca!' in Catalan and Occitan?

abi @ 390, David Goldfarb @ 422 (and other Latinists):

Am I correct in inferring that "ars" is the the more general and classical term, whereas "scienta" is more modern and specific?

Actually, looking up the etymology for "science", I note that 'Modern sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1678', and 'Main modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions ... concerning any subject or speculation" is attested from 1725'.

Also: 'To blind (someone) with science "confuse by the use of big words or complex explanations" is attested from 1937, originally noted as a phrase from Australia and New Zealand.'

: Deploying surprise in 5... 4...

Marilee @ 402

Thanks for the suggestion. If my latest e-mail doesn't elicit a sensible response, I'll try that.

Epacris #149, yes it is! I had a very hard time resisting a coffee mug of the same design fromthe same vendor this year at Arisia.

Please forgive me taking so long to answer -- I was snowed under by catering work last week, and then on the weekend I was busy going to New York to see the Red Bull production of "Edward II." First live theater I'd seen in YEARS, and SO WORTH IT. They claim to be contemplating a production of "Titus Andronicus" in the future and if they do I will NOT miss it!

Xopher @ 257, I sympathize. That bit of slang annoys me too, and I try to confront it with similar tactics.

That said... super-masculine hunks wearing lipstick? If they don't want it, they can send it over HERE! *g*

Steve C. #429: Speaking of Bond movies, the one one is entitled Quantum of Solace, which must be the Worst Bond Movie Title Ever.

I'm involved in an effort to put together an online film magazine, and on the planning message board we've been proposing our alternate Oscars. One of the other writers proposed a "Worst James Bond movie title ever" award just for Quantum of Solace. Me, I'm hoping that they work the title into the theme song somehow. And that they get someone better than Chris Cornell to sing it.

Bruce Cohen (StM) #431: But...but...Star Trek was so inclusive! People of all races were equally able to achieve, which is why the Enterprise crew was 90% white! They don't call 'em "minorities" for nothin'.

Re: Quantum of Solace - Given that both of the words are of Latin origin, perhaps the theme song could be a Gregorian chant in that language?

Quantum Solaci?
(Hey, this time I looked it up - genitive case, right? Right? No? Damn.)

Since after the last film's torture scene
he's ball-less,
no wonder James Bond needs a quantum's worth
of solace.

Steve @ 429 Speaking of Bond movies, the one one is entitled Quantum of Solace, which must be the Worst Bond Movie Title Ever.

Are you forgetting Octopussy or are you pretending it never happened?

Paul Duncanson @ 422 -

Octopussy does indeed rank up there, but I forgave it for being in the Roger Moore Silly Bond period.

Julie @#433: thanks, I'll check those out!

Brenda Kalt@401: "Stet" is the translated title of a late-epoch Beatles song, no?

If I haven't got this totally wrong, then I suspect you are thinking of "Sit".

I'm appreciating the Latin conversation, by the way, but I'm way too busy to contribute anything other than drive-bys.

Cocktail-olive tree!

24.9, 0x5b734d, 4, 5, 38.3, 0.5, 1.4, 1.2, 45.9, 83.1, 1.6, 1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.0, 0.7, 0.4, 0x716c53, 0xd17a90, 6.8, 25.0, 1, 1, 0.8, 0.0

Google really does need to implement a Latin translator...

re the cocktail olive. I'll have to run that through the various genome maps. I'd have thought the rules on petal structure would have blue-diamond on a stick-ed the thing.

Was it random, bred to, or intentionally designed?

I did do some cross-breeding.

24.9, 0x5b734d, 4, 5, 38.3, 0.5, 1.4, 1.2, 45.9, 83.1, 1.6, 1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.0, 0.7, 0.4, 0x716c53, 0xd17a90, 6.8, 25.0, 1, 1, 0.8, 0.0

X

93.9, 0xb2bebe, 3, 11, 56.8, 0.1, 1.6, 1.2, 61.8, 58.5, 0.6, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.1, -0.8, 0x10beff, 0xffdfd1, 12.7, 5.2, 11, 8, 2.0, 1.4

X

93.9, 0xb2bebe, 3, 11, 56.8, 0.1, 1.6, 1.2, 61.8, 58.5, 0.6, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.1, -0.8, 0x10beff, 0xffdfd1, 12.7, 5.2, 11, 8, 2.0, 1.4

=

42.2, 0x708569, 4, 7, 42.9, 0.4, 1.5, 1.2, 49.9, 76.9, 1.3, 2, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.9, -0.0, 0.5, 0.1, 0x58807e, 0xdc93a0, 8.3, 20.1, 4, 3, 1.1, 0.4

I like the last.

I've been letting the evolv-o-matic run for hours on end. Overnight gave me some interesting things, and it's been going almost twelve hours from a new flower now. I'm a bit miffed that mine seem to add rather than subtract-- I get ten or twelve petals, but I've only had four once.

I've let some auto evolve run overnight. I got some really ugly stuff, as well as some really delicate things, with small spiny flowers.

It's random. Sometimes I just interupt the flow, add in a tree I like, then force some crossing to see it doesn't bottleneck out, and then let it go on some more.

Running the auto-evolve seems to tend toward complexity and non-diversity. I'm baffled at what the rules might be that determine which specimen is replaced--it doesn't seem to be random.

A few times, running auto-evolve for a few hours has yielded trees of big, black blobs. When I lived on the Texas Gulf coast, we called those Dow Chemical Trees.

And finally, a few of my own:

Fluorescent overload: 11.0, 0x177f7d, 7, 6, 50.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0.0, 4.0, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0xa377ff, 0xff1ab2, 15.0, 19.0, 7, 4, 0.5, 2.0

pink/green snowflower 49.4, 0x424a50, 5, 11, 30.7, 0.1, 1.0, 1.4, 40.0, 80.7, 0.1, 4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.1, -0.2, 0xfa8dd2, 0xfce6f3, 5.0, 6.1, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.9

Electro-Broccoli : 68.4, 0x6ca26e, 9, 9, 55.8, 0.0, 1.9, 1.3, 12.6, 90.0, 0.7, 3, 0.0, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.4, 0.2, 0.8, 0.0, 0x5adc64, 0x47743f, 5.7, 1.0, 8, 13, 0.2, 0.2

Sapphire star: 15.9, 0x7a3926, 7, 8, 48.8, 0.3, 1.3, 1.3, 43.0, 82.2, 1.3, 2, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.4, 0.1, 0.3, 0.0, 0x523629, 0x6870ae, 5.9, 17.5, 4, 10, 0.7, 0.1

re Quantum of Solace and theme songs: anyone else notice that you could sing it to Guantanamera. Can anyone write a Bond-esque version in Spanish?

Candle @ 445: If I haven't got this totally wrong, then I suspect you are thinking of "Sit".

Stet = Yrg Vg Or

The cocktail olive was deliberately modified from a genome listed in this forum discussion; the original had more tiers of stick-petals and a smaller center. I hadn't previously realized that the petal number could be collapsed to 1.

The game designer has kindly sent me a list of the variable names, although I'm not sure whether it's cleared for public consumption; he has been providing it to other people as well, though. I'm *still* not sure how the branch structure is controlled, and I've also observed an interesting effect on the AddictingGames version where the radius of the central circle becomes semi-randomized among different flowers on the same plant; so far I haven't been able to locate that-- it might be an unexpected interaction from several other genes, as functional flowers can still generate from values outside the listed range.

Also, despite the presence of the "Seed Genome Project" post on the semi-official board, that other list was also experimentally compiled by another player and is not entirely correct.

Airbus 380 Cockpit

For the aviation geeks.