et Io secundus.

et

En robore, virtu: Robbery is good, trees are swell

Ich werde mit Ihnen spielen vielleicht in GG* 101 (oder vielleicht CI), und mit Ihnen sprechen wenn GG C dreht sich zum Englisch um. Wenn das geschieht.

*geöffnetes Gewinde

In other news, the work crew has finished taking down the poplars in the back of the parking lot, and is now enjoying a well-earned coffee break fifty feet up on the cherry picker.

(Actually, it doesn't really. If that's what I think it is, I memorised it because it was the putative family motto of T.E. Lawrence's family.)

I know almost no Latin, sadly.

---
I recognize seven of the ten. Without help.

I didn't realize it came from Cicero. Any idea what text?

Over on John Shirley's blog, Shirley is dealing with a mentally ill visitor in a most helpful, straight-forward, reasonable way.

I said that it would be more in character for him if it meant, "It's a crappy day, and I believe that I have a small posterior."

I did, however, once decline BBS into the dativ, in russian. Sasha Volokh liked that a lot.

Septem Arvy Tnvzna est. Et novem Befba Fpbgg Pneq.

Or are classicists banned?

Making Mars A Woman

This world – we came here in vitro –
Cold and dry as a coelacanth fossil,
Yet red with blood’s pigment.
In this land of winter we search for ice and snow
To force these deserts to flower
– to make this man our mother.

We search for the fossils
Of those we would supplant; maybe a trace of pigment,
Yeti tracks on Olympus snows –
Something that might be the ancestor of a flower –
Proof that this man was once a mother –
Could life be brought back in vitro ?

We paint this world with other pigments –
Blacken with mine-dust the crystalline snow.
Dig up cliffsides to plant foreign flowers.
Talk on the net to our abandoned mothers.
So many of us could only conceive in vitro,
Others leave behind space-suit fossils.

The heat of our reactors melts the salt-white snow,
Yet not enough heat to open wide these flowers –
So cold my hand, trying to mother
Germ-plasm of fauna and flora in vitro.
Wonder if our grandchildren’s grandchildren will make fossil
Imprints on a landscape where we’ve muddied up the pigments.

Radiation wilted the first surface flowers.
This is not a safe world for children; still mothers
Sing of hope from outposts in vitro.
Hope that finds order in fossils,
A hope of order in mingled and separated pigments,
A hope as bright as the fading snow.

I have looked for a way for this soil to feed mothers,
For our lives to emerge from in vitro.
To shatter without shame the dust of fossils,
Prism rust into a million variable pigments.
To bring out edelweiss from beneath the virgin snow –
Touch carelessly that second flower.

----
* because I am evil

Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

I will add, mysteriously, that Abi's prediction was fulfilled.

Knowing this forum, I'm sure one of these must be by Zvxr Sbeq, but I haven't spotted it yet.

Lovely! I've never dared a sestina.

That's what I get for taking Attic Greek instead of classical Latin. (Not that it would have helped me, sadly--it's been so long.)

There is one passage* that I considered and decided not to. Google "terra Mordoris" and see why.

-----
* two, actually; Patrick suggested the agnostic's prayer from Creatures of Light and Darkness, but it has too many dependent clauses. It ate my brain.

Can we get a translation into English at some point? Pretty please? With a cherry on top?

Wormholes. Warp drives. Teleportation. This is science fiction. We can do anything with a doubletalk generator and a handful of Corbomite.

(I note that no one has guessed 4 yet.)

Most of the passages have a key word or two that can help you find out what they are. (The first one is particularly good example, and Alan Beatty @33 highlights the key word in 3.)

Feel free to baffle me back. I speak a little Spanish and a smidgen of Dutch, and can competently write simple programs in C#, Cobol and Rexx. Beyond that, though, I am open to bafflement and confusion.

Gosh. Did "barf" get onto the ROT-13 word pairs thread?

#1 is a favorite of members of my household, I recognized it immediately. The others took a bit of thinking, but that's what I like about things here. ML keeps my brain from getting too flabby.

I suspect I won't be much use at baffling back. I know enough German to figure out what Xopher said in #10, but not enough to compose a coherent sentence. How about some Igpay Atinlay? ;)

It might be an attempt to say, suffragor asotis (aid/help to the dissipated), but it's not. Suffragium is, "vote Asotas was a loan word from the Greek ("more debauched than an asotus Cicero), as a second declension noun. It meant, sensualist, Libertine.

It's most commonly found, for us, as a stock character in Cynthia's Revels by Ben Johnson, or in the Dutch plays, such as that of the Dutch schoolmasters (e.g. Gnaephus, Macropedius). It also shows up in the German "Everyman" plays.

It's right up there with Dannon telling us they have, Bifidus regularis and that it's a special culture. Depending on where you buy the stuff, the name is different (e.g. Bifidus lactis in Canada) Dannon, in response to momre spefic queries says the strain is a proprietary strain of Bifidobacterium What's really special is the package doesn't really specify the differene, it just lists Bifidobacterium as one of the three strains of probiotic culture. Which is in lots of other foods (including some soy milks)

The evidence is, that the strain they have is tougher than most (CR reports that .1 percent of the bacteria survive the stomach), more to the point, the sales of the yogurt (which costs more to the tune of about 30 percent).

Latin, even when bastardised, it's still got punch

#4: Naar ZpPnsserl, Qentbafvatre, "Gur yvggyr dhrra nyy tbyqra / syrj uvffvat ng gur frn / gb fgbc rnpu jnir / ure pyhgpu gb fnir / fur iragherq oeniryl."

Rather, I got the first two lines. My key was the second.

Greetings. I am the Count. Do you know why they call me the Count? Because I love to count things!... One! Two! Three! Bwahahahah!!!

And though it's partially spoiled already, I'll add a line from the Monk's aria in "Hansel and Gretel and Ted and Alice" by PDQ Bach: "Caveat Nabisco Mausoleum."

And throw in
"Kriste!
Kriste!
Jesu H. Kriste!"
(Missa Hilarious) for free.

That reminds me of Punch's celebrated comment on the death of a young man named John Henry Longbottom: Vita summa brevis, ars longa.

Yes, yes you are awesome!

Any one want to assemble a list including which passage for ease of looking up?

I'm going to bed. Have fun, guys. Happy 100th Open Thread.

No, let's stop.

Serge (#55): The Count demonstrates that the censored version of something can be racier than the unexpurgated one.

I enjoy Sesame Street so much more now than when I was its target audience. Putative target audience, anyway.

abi: You should have put the Agnostic Prayer into Russian, where dependent clauses are don't eat one's braind (because the declensional problems start afresh, каториы is your friend.

I ROT-13d the text at 25, then I goofed the transformation back... leeting it, and then I ROT to Latined the Leeted text, resulting in:

Se(6em |\|31| 641z4a es6. E6 481em ()e50a 5(077 (4eq.

A couple of our friends and their daughters (one kindergarten, one babe in arms) have just uprooted themselves from Melbourne (Australia) to New York. It's a really exciting career move for her, and an adventure for all of them - but their feet have only just touched the ground, and already they long for Vic Market (http://tinyurl.com/2nrwr4, http://tinyurl.com/2sg5vy).

I know at least Patrick and Teresa are New Yorkers, and I suspect there are many more. Any advice for a young Australian family on how to enjoy New York?

seu liceat "noli iacere" et "noli stare."

Fragano @56 and abi @60 "Inane" is Lucretius' favorite word for the void, so I think it's a great choice.

Sadly, I am insufficiently well read to identify more than two or three.

I have not read 7; I have read 4 and 8, but don't retain much in the way of direct wording; I might have got 9 eventually, except that I went down a blind alley by translating "Portus" as "Door" (and vaguely wondered if it was something from Neverwhere).

I'm glad that's settled. Maybe now I can get some work done. :)

Well, I wasn't going to say, but it ought to be pretty clear from the first line ... with a dictionary, possibly.

Come on, 'reginula' with 'aurea' ought to be obvious: Qentbafvatre

One thing they'll need to do is familiarize themselves with the subway system. It's the city's circulatory system, a way of getting to just about any of the city's interesting places quickly and without having to worry about where to park. MTA.info is the official site for the subway, buses, and commuter trains.

Free maps (one train map with the whole subway system on one side, and the commuter trains to Long Island and upstate on the other; five bus maps covering the five boros) can be found at most subway stations and on many buses -- ask the driver or token booth clerk.

That's about the extent of my Latin, beyond "Spectate Phoeniciam pulchram" which sounds like a travel brochure for Phoenicia to me.

I'd also recommend checking out the magazine Time Out New York, found at newstands everywhere. Comes out on Thursdays, and is the most comprehensive listing of what's happening where. They also publish a quarterly Time Out Kids, which I bet your friends would find helpful.

They might also consider Forgotten NY, which is both a book and a website, and covers all aspects of our mostly paved-over history. My favorite tidbit is the saw marks on the fence in Bowling Green, from when a mob inspired by the first reading of the Declaration of Independence sawed the crowns off the fenceposts.

And if they get really homesick, I expect a visit to the Sunburnt Cow would probably help. =)

Te amo.

Prima narratio feminis Oror Trffrevg est.

I like it when the posts are smarter than I am. Your comments are often smarter than I am-- 'smarter' in this case includes 'I do not know that, and I do not know the context in which it would be useful to me, but *damn* that is interesting, and I would like to see it continued'.

I figure that even if I don't belong here, I'm going to wait for someone (Teresa) to kick me out.

We all geek out on different things; I have always been impressed with your dance knowledge!

For 9, I'd've gone with porta, rather than portus, which is "harbor" according to my dictionary.

I was surprised that, despite the earlier Sesame Street references, no one had yet provided this lovely ditty.

I learned it as 'cookies are for me' even before I realized I could swap my own name in. It's funnier that way.

None of this is to take away from abi's efforts, which I envy.

(Sorry, had to.)

Semper ubi sub ubi.

So there.

Yes, getting familiar with the subway system is essential. After that, a lot depends on their interests. New York has, pretty nearly, something for everyone. The older girl is about a year younger than my grandson, so I can tell you a couple of places he likes.

* The American Museum of Natural History is a terrific place, where kids can run freely amongst dinosaurs and meteorites and coral reefs and much, much more.

* The Children's Museum of Manhattan, right near there, is even better, with many, many fun things to do for both kids, and lots of organized activities.

* Sticking with that same neighborhood, there's Fairway and Citarella for upscale grocery shopping with enormous variety. And don't forget Zabar's deli. (Don't want to overload on links... these are all in Google.)

But, really, there's great stuff all over NYC. And half the fun is discovering it yourself, so if I had just one word of advice to your friends, it would be: Explore.

Illegitimi non Carborundum.

Hey, I'm putting up a display in the store of classic mid-century fantasy beyond Tolkien. Any favorites that you folks think should be included? There are nice new editions of Porius and the Gormenghast books that settled me on this theme.

Oh, and as for advice for new residents of new amsterdam, I would suggest walking around a bit to orient yourselves. The subway drops you off in so many different neighborhoods without giving you any context.
Strange. Now that I think about it I have so many hyper-specific recommendations, but very few general ones that wouldn't apply to any city.

CENTURION:
No, it doesn't. What's Latin for 'Roman'? Come on!
BRIAN:
Aah!
CENTURION:
Come on!
BRIAN:
'R-- Romanus'?
CENTURION:
Goes like...?
BRIAN:
'Annus'?
CENTURION:
Vocative plural of 'annus' is...?
BRIAN:
Eh. 'Anni'?
CENTURION:
'Romani'. 'Eunt'? What is 'eunt'?
BRIAN:
'Go'. Let--
CENTURION:
Conjugate the verb 'to go'.
BRIAN:
Uh. 'Ire'. Uh, 'eo'. 'Is'. 'It'. 'Imus'. 'Itis'. 'Eunt'.
CENTURION:
So 'eunt' is...?
BRIAN:
Ah, huh, third person plural, uh, present indicative. Uh, 'they go'.
CENTURION:
But 'Romans, go home' is an order, so you must use the...?
BRIAN:
The... imperative!
CENTURION:
Which is...?
BRIAN:
Umm! Oh. Oh. Um, 'i'. 'I'!
CENTURION:
How many Romans?
BRIAN:
Ah! 'I'-- Plural. Plural. 'Ite'. 'Ite'.
CENTURION:
'Ite'.
BRIAN:
Ah. Eh.
CENTURION:
'Domus'?
BRIAN:
Eh.
CENTURION:
Nominative?
BRIAN:
Oh.
CENTURION:
'Go home'? This is motion towards. Isn't it, boy?
BRIAN:
Ah. Ah, dative, sir! Ahh! No, not dative! Not the dative, sir! No! Ah! Oh, the... accusative! Accusative! Ah! 'Domum', sir! 'Ad domum'! Ah! Oooh! Ah!
CENTURION:
Except that 'domus' takes the...?
BRIAN:
The locative, sir!
CENTURION:
Which is...?!
BRIAN:
'Domum'.
CENTURION:
'Domum'.
BRIAN:
Aaah! Ah.
CENTURION:
'Um'. Understand?
BRIAN:
Yes, sir.
CENTURION:
Now, write it out a hundred times.
BRIAN:
Yes, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar, sir.
CENTURION:
Hail Caesar. If it's not done by sunrise, I'll cut your balls off.
BRIAN:
Oh, thank you, sir. Thank you, sir. Hail Caesar and everything, sir! Oh. Mmm!

I: Quando nos ... duae ... reconveniemus?

II: Ira inferni fervet in corde meo, mors et abiectio circa me flagrant!

III:
Edi
Pruni
Quae erant
In cistula glacei

Quaeque
Probabiliter
Reservas
Ientaculo

Remitte me
Delicata erant
Tam dulcia
Tam frigida

Apologies for leaving the genres we started in.

Fantastic. Particularly that third one.

A fantastic notion, and great fun. It will, of course, expose the significant weaknesses in my translations, but that's fine by me.

It's not like I'm being graded on this.

When I first came to Making Light, not many years ago at all, I knew myself to be insignificant, even inaudible. Things I would say to no reaction would be restated by others and get responses. For a while, it was off-putting. But then I found it a kind of freedom. It was my chance to experiment, to play around. To be my kind of geek.

And look where that got me.

Please don't feel out of place. We all define what this place is, so no one here - by definition - can be out of it.

1. Gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne sebz gur Qhar obbxf.

2. Gur cbrz ol Hefhyn Yr Thva sebz juvpu Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff gnxrf vgf gvgyr.

3. Gur bcravat zbabybthr sebz "Fgne Gerx" naq/be "Fgne Gerx: GAT".

4. I can more or less translate this one: Gur yvggyr tbyqra dhrra syrj uvffvat ng gur frn gb ubyq onpx gur jnirf naq fnir ure rtt. Fur qvq gurfr guvatf oeniryl. I just don't recognize it.

5. This one took quite a bit of thought and study to recognize. Vg'f Ora Xrabov'f qvfdhvfvgvba ba gur Sbepr: "...vg fheebhaqf hf naq crargengrf hf, vg ovaqf gur tnynkl gbtrgure."

6. Gbyxvra'f "Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba".

7. Shouldn't that be "puerorum" rather than "puerum"? "Vg vf gur evtug bs oblf naq sbbyf gb fnl gung gur rzcrebe unf ab pybgurf. Ohg gur sbbyf erznva sbbyf naq gur rzcrebe erznvaf na rzcrebe." Gurer'f n dhbgr n ovg yvxr gung va Fnaqzna, ohg V qba'g guvax vg'f rknpgyl gung.

8. Gur havpbea-uhagvat fbat sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea.

9. Raqre'f Tnzr: "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja."

10. Don't recognize this one and even am having a hard time reading it. The "'Versi" makes me think it might be a quote from Serenity....

Patrick's addition is gjb bs Avira'f Ynjf.

Which is why verbs are more likely to get invited to fashionable parties?

You probably couldn't hear it from over there, but the third one made me break into applause.

The first one is also neat. (And so, inductively, must the second one be; but I'm afraid I don't recognise it.)

And thank you for the ovation. It's a morning of procrastination well spent if I can impress even parts of the crowd here.

*Xanten isn't too far from you, if you want a Roman/Latin fix. On your side of the border, there's a lot of Roman history in Nijmegen. And Arnhem is also close. It has a fantastic zoo, with a great playground, as well as a good open-air museum. (I'm a sucker for those.)
**For Latin substitute computer science, biochemistry, Chinese...............

1 Jura jvyy jr ... gjb ... zrrg ntnva - Greel Cengpurgg'f jvgpurf. V guvax sebz Ybeqf naq Ynqvrf?

2 I don't recognise this but my best stab would be something like natre oheaf va zl urneg yvxr sver, qrngu naq zvfrel rapvepyr zr, which is probably nothing like it - I last did latin about 35 years ago.

3 I think is obvious just from the line length. I love cistula glacei for ersevqtrengbe though. I know the Vatican have a list of modern terms in Latin, is it from there or an original coining?

Definitely "Fgne Gerx". As people have said, 'quinquennialum' is the giveaway; for "Fgne Gerx: GAT" it would be, um, (rustling of dictionary pages) 'perseverans'?

Somehow I have to keep learning the lesson that there is always likely to be someone around who knows more than you about any given thing - and that this is an opportunity rather than a problem!

Hmm, didn't mean to preach there. It's just that I constantly forget that this is precisely why I like Making Light.

Ps: Mikael: I'm very impressed that you made III go into Latin so well. I love the run of single words in the middle. Perhaps WCW should have written in Latin in the first place. Perhaps he did.

You forgot poetry geekery - and that rhymes too. Say, is there such a thing as pun geekery? According to the movie Ridicule, puns are the death of wit.

Yes, the pun is matey-er than the sward.

I hope you're not referring to me there. This post took about a week of subjecting Messrs Lewis, Short, Allen and Greenough to some enhanced interrogation techniques, and I still forgot that puer is second declension.

One day Professor Griffith* is going to track this blog down and flunk me.

-----
* Latin Prose Composition, UC Berkeley, spring semester of 1990. I got a B+.

Some would say puns show a dearth of wit, but I don't agree.

And thanks for the tip about Arnhem - summer trips beckon!

However, I'm not sure how much of that is due to it being 7 A.M. or due to my being a very poor sort of geek. But at last, twelve years of Latin are useful!

Forsan, et haec olim meminisse iuvabit.

Vivat Abi!

An unaccountable omission. I was going to offer to remedy the lack, but on reflection I think it's a job for somebody who'll get the word endings right.

Instead, here's something that I briefly thought abi's #10 might be:

Matrimonium. Matrimonium esse quae conciliare nobis hodie. Matrimonium, illa compositionis beatum, illa somnium intus somnium. Et amor, amor verum, semper exequor. Ita amor colere.

(I apologise for the errors I'm certain that paragraph contains; the best dictionaries in the world, even assuming that's what I used, would not make up for the fact that I never studied Latin. Scholars, console yourselves with the reflection that if I'd also attempted to ersyrpg gur fcrnxre'f yvfc it would have been much, much worse.)

No, because it's Ora Xrabov, not Znfgre Lbqn.

(But "How best to represent the odd speech of Znfgre Lbqn in Latin?" is still an interesting question, though not one I feel qualified to comment on.)

I thought Diatryma (54) had exactly the right reaction to this kind of game:

Dude! I am awesome! I got 1 and 4 and 9 and now feel extremely smart and moderately well-read."

And I had my own made-up tune for 4 going through my head pretty solidly all last night.

(Gratias ago tibi, Abi, for fixing two bits of grammar and subtracting a superfluous pronoun.)

in re: "Verbs conjugate; nouns decline."

The nouns get invited. They just turn down the invite.

The verbs get invited, but they do tend to behave somewhat shockingly.

And, all, my only contribution to the Latinate foolery this morning is to point you to Yarn Harlot's post in praise of every writer's favorite Latin term, "STET."

http://www.yarnharlot.ca/blog/

On a vaguely related topic, about the only bit of "Captain Corelli's Mandolin" I actually liked was the author's decision to represent the British SBS man's speaking ancient Greek to the islanders as Chaucerian English.

I posted a comment (with six URLs) on Why, this is the whale, nor are we out of it three days ago. It's shown up on my comment list page, but not in the thread in question. Did I hit some sort of moderation, or a glitch, or is there something else I ought to be doing?

Here's something I do remember:

Denique bracchium meum denuo completum est!

…
All felled, felled, are all felled;
    Of a fresh and following folded rank
        Not spared, not one
        That dandled a sandalled
    Shadow that swam or sank
…

Rikibeth @83, is "Memento Te Esse Mortalum" what his companion whispered to the triumphant one?

Nancy @93, do you mean Orar Trffrevg?

¿31-ʇoɹ uı uɐɥʇ ɹǝɥʇɐɹ uʍop ǝpısdn sɹǝʍsuɐ ʇsod oʇ ǝlqɐ ǝq oʇ lnɟǝsn ǝq ʇɥƃıɯ ʇı ʞuıɥʇ ǝuoʎuɐ sǝop

…
All felled, felled, are all felled;
    Of a fresh and following folded rank
        Not spared, not one
        That dandled a sandalled
    Shadow that swam or sank
…

Rikibeth @83, is "Memento Te Esse Mortalum" what his companion whispered to the triumphant one?

Nancy @93, do you mean Orar Trffrevg?

What is this that roareth thus?
Can it be a Motor Bus?

And that most definitely isn't a problem for me. I've said it before, I'll continue to say it: I love being around people who are smarter and better educated than me. It stretches me in ways I wouldn't have thought to stretch, and makes me reach for more than I thought I could.

By the way, the modern form of "lorem ipsum" was first composed by Theodore Geisel when laying out an illustrated book, and begins "lorax ipsum".

Don't look. It *burns*!!!

http://judgeabook.blogspot.com/2008/01/no-brainers.html

(the third of the three pictures in the post, that is...)

1. Gur Yvgnal Ntnvafg Srne
2. Qhaab
3. "Fcnpr, gur svany sebagvre..."
4. Sbe fbzr ernfba V jnagrq gb znxr guvf "Gur Gjryir Qnlf bs Puevfgznf" sebz gur tbyqra evatf ba qbja, ohg vg vfa'g.
5. Qhaab
6. Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba
7. Evtug ba gur gvc bs zl gbathr
8. V cebonoyl fubhyq xabj, ohg V qba'g.
9. Ab vqrn
10. Zny'f fcrrpu gb Evire ng gur raq bs *Freravgl*

This makes me want to buy the newest edition of Wheelock's Latin.

But I'd like to ask this learned gathering something if you don't mind? Back in the day, when Cicero became too tedious, we used to amuse ourselves with making up sentences. My favourite was "Caesar rocked up on his bike." (Or is this some ancient meme? I can't remember.). Of course this was an approximation, the actual latin I think involved the words Caesar+arrive 3rd person sing perfect active+wheel...

My dictionaries are in my parents' attic... Can anyone translate this for me? I'd be so happy.

Humbly,
Sus of Small Brain

During the tennis, they keep showing ads that make Melbourne look completely delightful, even if that touted "nature" *is* several hours' drive away. Can it really be that gorgeous, from architecture to setting? Arizona has its own great scenery, but Phoenix is no gem. I prefer my hick town, though I wish to hell we had some form of public transit.

Must close now, to go get the neighbor's cat back indoors -- it's about 20 degrees outside, and frosty!

Chris @148: That's wonderful.
Mikael @108: 2 is "Qvr ubryyr Enpur xbpug vz zrvarz Uregmra"

Tell me what I've done wrong...if you can figure out the quote in the first place. Hint: it's from Sversyl, "Bhe Zef. Erlabyqf", Zny gb Wnlar.

Meanwhile: abi, all the prose comp seems pretty good to me, although I was thinking especially of the people who were able to write their comments in Latin. If it helps, I think a native Latiner might plausibly have used "puerum" for "puerorum" on the parallel of the established variant "deum" for "deorum" (and "uirum" for "uirorum" too). Just tell people that you're so familiar with the language that you can be casual about breaking the rules...!

Te contemnendum mihi certe ad medium suum advenit.

For the record I am wicked impressed with all the Latin. And I refuse to admit how long it took me to figure out the ROT-13 business.

156/165/166: I don't know for sure but I'm sure the Neo-latin people have a word for bicycle; and since the Romans had no shame about stealing Greek words I don't see what's wrong with "bicyclus."

candle @ 166: I totally assumed that "puerum" was a syncopated genitive.

I was, and I suspect I am in good company here, an odd child.

At any rate, it would be markedly poor spoiler protection for me.

Yes, I wasn't seriously suggesting it as an alternative to Rot-13. I just thought it was an entertaining toy.

Yes, me too. Unfortunately, that was the limit of what I turned up with Google. Frustratingly, that definition seemed to be the one invariably offered in discussion when I said I wanted to know the word's origins, even by people who knew I proof* for a living.

Finally one of my co-workers who was fortunate enough to study Latin** heard me complaining about it and told me the origin.***

*I proof the ads for a big-box retailer. I do the heavy lifting in checking the prices, but catching errors in the text is also in my job description, though theoretically they've all been found in multiple rounds of proofing before I see them.

**When I asked about it on entering high school, I was told, "No one knows that well enough to teach it anymore." I didn't even ask at college. Possibly a mistake, but given the schools I attended, I doubt they taught it either.

***Since you can't google it, here's the answer for those in my boat: It is the second person imperative for "let it stand." Or at least, that was her explanation.

In other words, I got over myself a little bit! And if I'd stopped reading this thread, I'd never have seen Mikael's 108:III, which is just beyond exquisite.

Mary Aileen 161: I second your recommendation. That gorgeous voice singing out "Ecce MacDonaldus Senex, qui fundus habet!"

As for me, all (or almost all) my Latin comes from singing Renaissance motets and Gregorian chant. And, of course, Carmina Burana, and Catulli Carmina to some extent; even a little Trionfo di Afrodite, but the problem with the latter two is that the Latin is Classical Latin, and Catullus takes full advantage of the syntactic flexibility of that language, which makes it difficult, at least for me.

At any rate, speaking of Gregorian and motets: am I the only one who keeps hearing abi's 3 as Gregorian? And 1 and 2 as motets?

OK, I probably am. Am I the only one who thinks it's a good idea? Am I the only one who would love to sing the Gregorian chant "Inane Ultimus Limus" at Worldcon? (Perhaps the others, but I'm not sure my compositional skills are up to the motets; the Gregorian I can definitely do. Motets take a hell of a lot more practice to sing, too.)

Well, in fact it's the third person present subjunctive of sto, stare (I stand, to stand), and therefore means "let it stand" [or "it may stand"]. I would have said that imperatives are always second person, but I was taught that in classical Greek there are third person imperatives which are therefore almost impossible to translate into English. The closest I got was "Thatcher Out!". (Or, on an equally political note, Robin Cook.)

Debbie: I thought there might be some wordplay going on. I suppose the English equivalent is:

Caesar adsum jam forte
Brutus aderat
Caesar sic in omnibus
Brutus sic inat

Chris at 99, I think deorsum is a good choice, because the meaning is below, underneath, not fallen.

(I am so made of squee right now.)

And the poem at 108 is gorgeous!

Based on the recognition that Catullus and Cthulhu pronounce vaguely similar, I give you an extract from Cthulhi Carmina # 5.

Da mi tentaculi mille, deinde centum
Dein altera mille, dein centum secundum

I thought there was a good chance I was close but not correct on it. Thanks for the clarification.

i could not resist, since we're playing Tower of Babel today -

Iä! Iä! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!

there, now i feel much better.

I'm semi-convinced* that iTunes is Apple's first successful experiment in artificial intelligence, and either develops moods and preferences in music, or somehow is able to anticipate those of its users, even on random play (whether it chooses to follow or work against the user's preferences is another matter).

Because mine will do stuff like play 6 - 7 Gladiator soundtrack tunes in a row. Or play anime/J-Pop music for half an hour. Or gets on a Star Trek jag. or decides I really want to listen to drum & bass for a while.

Conversely, there are songs (and whole albums) that I haven't heard since I burned them from CD - years ago, in some cases - unless I go in and play them manually.

*No, not really. But, you know...

(Yes, the case is wrong. But it still had me giggling.)

Scott Taylor (#188): That's why I use smart playlists to play things I haven't heard in a certain length of time. It makes it far less likely that I'll miss hearing something again.

I think you will enjoy this:

The Jumping Frog: In English. Then in French. Then Clawed Back into a Civilized Language Once More by Patient, Unremunerated Toil.

theophylact and Bill Higgins have what I was thinking of. Twain seems almost prophetic of internet translations.

I hope to have an addition to the corpus soon but today is the Hell Day: Intensive Greek, Greek Prose, Intensive Latin. Right now I'm just hoping to get home before my brains leak out my ears.

Which naturally leads to stuff along the lines of "Habeo maximum amicum Womae qui Biggus Dickus wocatus esse" and "Libewa Wodewicum!", though otoh classical standards might call instead for transliteration along the lines of "matvimonivm" etc.

See above: brains, leaking.

More pondering, now that my fellow classics grad student-cum-geek is awake and around for puzzling over these.

re cyhzf @108.III: lovely!

re Catullus/Cthulu mashup @183: eeeeek!

Count me in on the Gregorian chant, though I haven't been in a chant choir since I studied Latin Prose Composition. If we end up at the same Worldcon ever, let's do it.

I think 3 works well as a chant because it has lots of short punchy sentences.

Motets scare me to sing, but give me a metrical pattern and I can certainly try to write one. Only not this weekend, please, because the Cue Cat has come and I'm putting all our books on Library Thing.

Has anyone ever done a real study of the differences in letter frequency between standard English, made-up skiffy words, made-up fantasy words, and made-up non-genre English?

Still waiting to see whether anyone identifies #144.

It was very useful during my years as a financial auditor.

Now, I mostly use it in restaurants which supply too few menus.

Chanting is one of those things where if you get in the groove, you can do it spontaneously with just about any text. At one point before we had children my wife and I carried on a twenty minute conversation in the "Old Scottish Chant".

With regard to reading upside down: I learned to do it at the breakfast table. In grade school I wasn't allowed to read my own book or a piece of the newspaper at the table, but I HAD to read SOMETHING. So I read the others' things.

Nf Tbq gur Ybeq perngrq gur gevor anzrq Wbavf va gur svryq shyy jvgu obarf

And then there is Anglemittus Circumservus that I cannot seem to fit into the whole thing at all.

"How much is 'forty-four' in real numbers?"
"XLIV." (spoken: ecks el eye vee)
"XLIV? Why didn't you just *say* XLIV? Who can remember 'forty-four'?"

I can't get Teresa's #144 either, even if I can make some sense of the Latin. [Mikael: zl irefvba vf zhpu gur fnzr nf lbhef: "Whfg nf gur Ybeq bhe Tbq sebz n svryq shyy bs obarf perngrq gur crbcyr anzrq (nsgre?) Wbavf (Wbua?)..."?]

I see I ought also to have mentioned that my #186 was meant as a contribution to Cthulhi Carmina...

Tantum nescioquo audiverim, cui curae quid dicam sit sed etiam non curae possit, opto, si flocci est, ut tibi ignoscatur sive aliquid feceris sive deliqueris quod ignoscendum sit. Contra, si necesse sit habere non clementiam sed aliud ut tibi quaedam beneficia debita post corporis exitium adrogetur, opto ut hoc, quidquid id est, sic donetur aut abnegetur ut ipsam beneficiam adsumas. haec opto electus depeciscendi causa inter te et istum qui, etsi tu non est, ita curet ut quam maximum huius adroges et aliquo modo ritu tangat.

I faint at your feet.

Also: my favorite plot point revealed in Latin: Placetne, magistra?

Mikael and candle: [V'z cerggl fher gur anzr vf n cha: "zvgghf" zrnaf zvyq be tragyr, ohg vg pna nyfb zrna zrepvshy be . . . Pyrzrag, naq Natyhf vf n jbeq sbe gur Ratyvfu, fb Pyrzrag gur Ratyvfuzna? Fvzvyneyl Pvephzfreihf frrzf yvxr vg zhfg or n cha nf jryy V whfg pna'g guvax bs jung vg zvtug or. Rfcrpvnyyl fvapr vg'f tbg gb or va nccbfvgvba gb Qrhf Qbzvahf.]

This is WAY too much fun. Don't you people realize how much work I have to do?

Some finds, stumbled upon while exploring outward from the earlier vikipedia link:

Latina mercatoria
Singularitas Technologia
Kenethus MacLeod

Does that mean you won't translate the original Star Trek monologue into Latin then back into English?

I can stab at Anglemittum Circumservus -- natry-frag nebhaq-fynir, to be overliteral -- but I'm not drawing any enlightenment from that either.

abi 206: Great! I don't suppose you'll be going to Denver?

C. 210: Fabulous. Denver?

And I know what you mean about the groove of chant. I can make up Gregorian-ish chant melodies on the fly, though I'm pretty sure I borrow heavily from Hildegarde von Bingen.

Originally French, and the English edition I had was translated with no punctuation for direct speech, even though the words in the text had all the phrasing and structure.

Something like this:

This is the work of devils! said the lama, recoiling from the hollow echoing darkness, the glimmer of rails between the masonry platforms, and the maze of girders above.

Which is Kipling, but you can see where the quote marks should be.

Funny you should say that. This posting started out as three texts, but it was rather like eating crisps. Every evening, when I should have been sleeping, there I was pulling the grammar apart in another text.

(Did I mention that my copy of Allan & Greenough's New Latin Grammar is halfway through the rebinding process?)

yog.com is for sale

Just thought, you know, might be worth mentioning.

That, alas, is the way they do it in French. I never cared much for it.

That's it! I'd forgotten. A well-known thing it was, then, not something we made up. Still, it makes me laugh and laugh. Thank you so much for bringing that back to me!

OTOH, I've tried playing along to the record, and it's harder than it looks!

I'm pretty sure I got all the cases right.

Lingua::Romana::Perligata -- Perl for the XXI-imum Century

Fixed, and thanks for pointing it out.

How strange in a language without either "the" or "Mr & Mrs".

Tu lapidas.

Also (cheating and using Google):
Tace, Loiosh!

There is also my own experience when I tried to read a CJCherryh book in French even though I had it in English

Now that's funny, I would have expected her to translate her own work (she's done some translation from French to English, I know). And what's good enough for Elisabeth Vonarburg ...

Apropos of different flavours of geekery, and candle #124's comment, here is extreme geekness with theremin.

Oh and Dave Bell #126:
Only if punning is your metier.

Yeah, I decided this when I was fifteen, what can I say except that I'm still right anyway.

For this thread, anyway. :)

You know Elisabeth?

That said I'm tucking the source away for the day I teach Prose Comp myself. Any corrections or suggestions for improvement gratefully appreciated.

the same @227: Composition is totally addictive. We did a little bit of verse comp for my Greek Prose Comp class when I was in school; I spent HOURS (basically all week) translating a few of J.V. Cunningham's epigrams into elegaic couplets and the prof came in with "anyone lived in a pretty how town" in tragic trimeter. Zowie.

Serge @ 222: Wouldn't that be like carrying owls to Athens at this point?

Alan @ 244: I'm on it. I think I have a copy kicking around here.

Out of curiosity, what order of cases did you learn? It looks like you're starting the sequence as nominative-vocative-genitive?

Now you know how I feel when we're discussing popular culture and/or alternative lifestyles. Latin is part of my tiny comfort zone.

#108
V: Znfxrenqr

VV: "gur jengu bs uryy oheaf va zl urneg, qrngu naq (qrfcnve?) sybhevfu nebhaq zr"?

VVV: guvf vf whfg gb fnl

#135: Gur Cevaprff Oevqr

#150: I too can read both upside down and mirror writing easily enough that neither is spoiler-protection for me.

xopher @ #177, I would TOTALLY sing that. Not that I'm going to Worldcon. I'm a second soprano, by the way.

#233, that's Iynq Gnygbf'f zbggb.

(Teresa: I got nothin'.)

I learned to read upside down, and reversed, when I was making slugs on a linotype. One had to check for mistakes. The relief between the letters and the base was not great.

Gung bs pbhefr, vf sebz Fgnaq ba Mnamvone: Yvxr gur Tbbq Ybeq Tbq va gur Inyyrl bs Obarf, Raterynl Fnggryfreir znqr fbzr crbcyr anirq Wbarf. Gurl jrer abg nyvir naq gurl jrer abg qrnq...

A random requiem question: there is a composer whose name may be Lukas or Lukash, possibly Lukac. Hungarian, I believe, which is why I have trouble with that last letter. I have sung parts of a requiem by him, and they were gorgeous. Googling has not helped me find a recording anywhere, nor in fact any evidence that this is a real person.
Has anyone else heard of this guy? I liked the music a lot, and if I hallucinated three songs from college... that makes my college choral experience that much more interesting.

(OK, after writing this I decided some might not care to read a little rant where a gay porn site is central. There's nothing explicit here, but non ROT13ite if you don't want to read about that.)

Ab, V jnf ba n pung jurer fbzr crbcyr jrer qvfphffvat n tnl cbea fvgr, bar bs gubfr gung srngher nyyrtrqyl "fgenvtug" thlf.

Bar bs gurz pbzcynvarq gung gurl nyjnlf znxr bar bs gur fhcreznfphyvar uhaxf jrne "gung tnl nff yvcfgvpx."

Jryy svefg V grnfrq: "gurl znqr uvz jrne yvcfgvpx ba uvf NFF?" Gura V evqvphyrq: "Ur'f univat frk jvgu nabgure zna naq lbh'er pbzcynvavat gung gur YVCFGVPX vf tnl?!?" Gura V erzbafgengrq nobhg hfvat gur jbeq 'tnl' gb zrna ynzr naq fghcvq.

Ohg crbcyr jub ner hapbafpvbhf nyzbfg arire yvfgra. Creuncf V frag uvz n onq qernz va uvf jnxvat fyhzore. V'yy cebonoyl arire xabj.

Alas, Google has failed us.

*I think this scans as a classical iambic dimeter if you give me an epic correption in the last line.

The rest:
vestes mirabiles fiunt
mancipes aerarii venantur
illos vectigalia fugientes
per cloaca oppidi municipalis

Arcana carmina scorta aedium
consopiunt
omnes venusti tenent
amicum comentitium.

Semnoprosopos* Cato
laudet mos maiorum
sed milites nimium firmi
agunt sedidionem stipendariorum causa.

Caesar lectum calet
dum non magnus criba
scribet NON AMO LABOREM
in tabulam publicam.

nec opibus nec clementia donati
parvuli aves cruribus rubris
colens *poikila ova
adspectant quamquam urbem peste corruptam.

omnino alibi pernumeri
greges transeunt
muscos aureos multa passum milia
cum silentio et citissime.

*semnoprosopos=holy-faced
poikilia=speckled

Might a less literal translation of "Circumservus" by "jbexnebhaq"? If so, does that help at all?

(This is fun. Hooray for distributed problem-solving!)

"Gung vf abg qrnq juvpu pna rgreany yvr..."

I did try that (as well as "Matuimonium" etc., because the Latin looked odd with Ws), but I couldn't settle on a satifactory version of some of the words - "amor" in particular.

Ah. Well, that explains why I didn't recognise it.

Did anyone else try to read that translation of Koji Suzuki's Dark Water that came out a couple of years ago? I'm pretty sure I disliked the translation, not the stories. I just couldn't believe that a Japanese narrator of a Japanese story for a Japanese audience would refer to a tatami room as "the Japanese-style room." Or that the pet name Iko-chan would be consistently rendered "little Ikoku." Or again, that this putative narrator of a Japanese story for a Japanese audience would commit an atrocity of a sentence like, "She combed her brownish, wavy hair, which is unusual for a Japanese woman."

I had to set the book down unfinished.* For the record, I don't speak word one of Japanese, and I'm not some manga-toting American otaku. I don't think I know any more about Japanese culture than I know about Brazilian culture or Italian culture or, for that matter, British culture. But I hate it when a translation interpolates explanations of things that are common knowledge or that I can glean from context. I hate being translated down to.

*On the other hand, my sister liked it, and I like my sister, so go figure.

Nevertheless, I'm glad for translations because otherwise there'd have been very little SF for me to feed my mind with. Better to have an approximation of a story's original intent than no story at all.

First slugs,
Next humans?
It's alive, alive!

Xopher, 'gay' is troublesome. I don't like it as a perjorative, but sometimes it's hilarious-- a friend of mine, while trash-talking to her son over a Buffy game, once spat out, "Your mom's gay!" and heard dead silence through the rest of the room... and then everyone burst out laughing because, well, she is, and she is not afraid to say so.
When treated seriously, it's bad. When treated as a joke, but poorly, it's cringe-inducing. When treated as a joke, but well, it's hilarious.

Seed

You start with a seed. You plant it. You can clone it, or cross it. Crossing will have some change, cloning may have some gentic drift.

You keep crossing for traits you like. There can only be five plants at a time.

There are some tricks, but I'll leave them to you to find out.

You can save the code, and so share interesting flowers with your friends.

2nd was very cool but the only people I really knew were the family I'd come with. So I never did get to filking or anything of that sort (though I did have a blast regardless; there's just a limit to what you can do if you're staying at your sister's, a mile-point-five away, you're walking, and your backpack is full of the hardbacks you're getting signed. And you have to be back in time for dinner.)

The weird thing is that this one will be the first convention for which I'm actually staying at a convention hotel, and can plausibly be out doing things on my own. Though probably Squirmy's going to be setting a lot of the schedule; there is this whole feeding thing I'll need to be taking care of.

But if I can, I will be glad to join. I'll also teach my children's song version of "Quantum materiæ materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari." It might be able to be sung as a round but I haven't bothered to transcribe it and find out.

That said, this thread has been an education in more ways than one.

ROFL, that's how I initially read it too. In the same vein:

V bapr pbzcynvarq gb n sevraq gung gur sevrq evpr sebz gur ybpny gunv cynpr "gnfgrf yvxr nff," zrnavat fvzcyl gung vg gnfgrf onq, naq ur dhvgr fvapreryl fnvq "bu, qb lbh guvax fb? Gung'f jrveq, V qba'g guvax vg qbrf ng nyy."

I also sometimes use "gay" to mean "dorky/useless" but I'm training myself out of it, since words like that are always used to signify social grouping in one way or another. I'm not gay enough, myself, to use it ironically the way my gay friends do, so when I say it, I'm socially grouping myself with...I guess with adolescents, who are almost universally homophobic (and heterophobic...we're mostly omniphobic at that age, where difference and/or sexuality are concerned).

So not the kind of thing I should be handed when it's already long past bedtime.

Might it have been Zdenek Lukas (Zdeněk Lukáš)? Czech rather than Hungarian.

http://cdmusic.cz/inshop/shop.asp?kat=CQ00142211

http://www.musicfayre.com/classical_music/item/cq0053-2.html.en

http://www.emusic.com/album/Karen-Grylls-CHOIR-OF-THE-WORLD-MP3-Download/11111278.html

http://www.radio.cz/mp3/podcast/fr/faits/070717-zdenek-lukas-un-compositeur-aime-de-choeurs.mp3

Both my children are taking Latin in school. The German school system drives me NUTS. They ONLY learn to translate. If I ask them, "How would you say _____?" they get seriously irritated with me. They're not expected to, you know, manipulate the language in their brains and actually use it, and they're affronted when I ask them to. *sigh* What a waste.

dido@216: Wow! Well done!

candle@180: Yes, Greek has third-person imperatives. They're not translatable as a single word, but that doesn't make them untranslatable. One result of that is, a Greek subjunctive verb is hortatory, or strongly urging, where a Latin subjunctive would be jussive, or commanding.

On another topic entirely: I was thinking about Life on Mars fanfic...Sam/Gene (of course); Gene/Annie (ick); Annie/The Test Pattern Girl (huh?) and there popped into my head "Sam/Frodo". Maybe a crossover fanfic where Sam gets hit by a car in 1973 and wakes up in Middle-Earth.

* Hence my first try at Inane…ultimus limes was [something]...last wall?
** For some reason that last word is always left off.
*** This despite being a sucker for novels set in ancient Rome.

Why, besides that Grey-eyed Athena*) already has one?

(*) I still think that Ingrid Berman's daughter was great in that role in 1997's Odyssey miniseries.

Like others here, my Latin knowledge is gleaned and inferred from non-primary sources: botanical and biological studies, working in medicine and legal publishing, reading Roman and Mediaeval history, a long fascination with English etymology, and exposure to Romance languages through opera. Vocabulary, but almost no grammar. One of my sigs is "Finem respice et principiis obsta", but I depend on the kindness of others to have supplied the translation.

So I could work out 1 — originally thought it was from one of the Psalms, then, like shapes emerging from the morning mist, I comprehended phrases and grasped the whole. A wonderful sensation! This gave me a hint of the direction to go when I thought I recognized bits of 6, then 3, then of course! 2. But though I can pick out parts of the others, either I haven't read them or didn't make the connection (Raqre'f Tnzr, indeed).

I'm both humbled and excited to see what's developed in the comments, Mikael's #108 & dido's #259 lifted my soul indeed, as did the intercourse here as a whole. And there's some nice music to listen to as well.

Seed won't load for me. Alas, for I am forced to be productive.

As for the displays of linguistic talent in this thead, I'm just gobsmacked! Having forgotten most of my H.S. Latin and college German (while retaining more of the French), I can't even claim a talent for reading upside-down. I *did* learn one thing from years of doing British-style cryptic crosswords: quite often I can decode an anagrammatic clue without thinking about it. So useful in daily life.

Drives me crazy. What the HELL is the use of learning a language if you can't produce a sentence in it?!?!?!?

This has revealed a hole in our reference book collection - no Latin-English dictionary. Must fix that.

Re. Reading upside down - me too.

I for one would liven up the lessons by doing a unit on Roman graffiti, then having the students compose their own and spraypainting it on wallpaper. Reasonably chaste, of course. Or reading Asterix and Obelix in Latin, then maybe captioning their own cartoons....lots of possibilities. It's not like there aren't resources out there.

*to put those teachers to use who qualified in it aeons ago :)
**I've always argued that the reverse is just as valid

Carnivorous Vulgaris
Road-Runnerus Digestus
Eatibus Anythingus
Famishus-Famishus
Eatibus Almost Anythingus
Eatius Birdius
Famishius Fantasticus
Eternalii Famishiis
Famishus Vulgarus
Vulgaris Ingeniusi
Famishius-Famishius
Unbelieveus Eatius-Slobbius
Hardheadipus Oedipus
Incalculus Carnivorous Slobbius
Hard-Headipus Ravenus
Evereadii Eatibus
Apetitius Giganticus
Hungrii Flea-Bagius
Overconfidentii Vulgaris
Idioticus Desertous-operativus Idioticus
Caninus Nervous Rex
Grotesques Appetitus
Nemesis Riduclii

And did the one-footed grumby put its foot in its mouth, at which comedy ensues?

Meanwhile. have you ever heard of the strigiphilus garylarsoni? It's a real creature, a biting louse of a genus only found on owls(*). And, yes, it was named in honor of the cartoonist Gary Larson.

(*) dido?

There's also an Ecuadoran butterfly named after him (Serratoterga larsoni), along with an entire genus of beetles (Garylarsonus).

(From this delightful list of curious scientific names.)

Albunea groeningi Boyko, 2002 (sand crab (Crustacea: Anomura: Albuneidae)) named for Matt Groening

Indeed, all I can picture now is the delightful ribbons and curls and a fine sunday bonnet ... on a Segway :)

Indeed, all I can picture now is the delightful ribbons and curls and a fine sunday bonnet ... on a Segway :)

Debbie @284/Xopher @294/Debbie @296: One of the problems with teaching dead languages actively is that that there is a dearth of source material. Imagine trying to teach someone conversational English with only Chaucer (Plautus), Emily Dickinson (Catullus) and Macauley (Cicero) to work with. I don't say it can't be done, but it's hard and most teachers can't do it. Dorothy L. Sayers had it right when she suggested starting kids with medieval Latin.

Serge @289: Mez hit the nail on the head. Athenian coins were stamped with an owl and is exactly the ancient equivalent of "coals to Newcastle."

(259 revised and versified strophes 2 & 3)

vestes fiunt mirabiles;
captant ministri aerarii
hunc qui cloacis contegens
tributum vel abscondidit.

nunc carmina occulte sacra
scorta aedium consopiunt.
omni venusto fingitur
mendax amicus vacuus.

I agree completely. Given that I'm rather bad at learning languages myself, I spend a lot of time studying learning methods for languages, and have decided that the more different ways you interact with the language, the more likely it is to stick. And production covers half the possible interactions. The best learning experiences I've had included some very playful composition exercises (ask me sometime about the braided stories we came up with in Breton class). And when I started putting together my own "teach yourself Medieval Welsh" lessons, I made sure to include a lot of translation-into exercises as well as translation-from.

Tying into the more general theme of the thread, I've always tried to write at least one original poem in any language I've studied. They aren't very good, but there you are. Here's the one I wrote for Hittite class:

Kuis=mu ussaras menahhanda tiyazi
N=as wiyanas antuhsi kuis ekuzi
Nu HURSAG-az hariya uemi
Nu=ta ispantuzzi iyami
Namma=ya ekumi

#3 was the only one I got. "Kemmerentes" (#2) and "'Versi" (#10) hinted at the source, at least, of those two.

So this is not my game. But, having spent several years among the Flurospherians, I have strengthened my ego against the realization that beings of stupendous intelligence and awesome erudition walk the Net.

Let them have their glee. There are other games played here; some of them, I am good at.

Carnivorous Vulgaris
Road-Runnerus Digestus
Eatibus Anythingus...

This reminds me that for some of us, all the German we knew, we learned from Hogan's Heroes. Achtung! Schnell! Verboten! Jawohl, mein Kommandant!

It might interest people to know that it has, also, survived in an obscure corner of Swedish folk music too. (or possibly, it's just been re-translated by the Swedish LARPers) There, the lyrics are

// Jag såg en ulv, en räv, en hare
Jag såg dem dansa alla tre //
Och jag dansade också med
Dansa med ulven, räven och haren
Och jag dansade också med
Dansade med dem alla tre

It's been made famous in the German medieval rock scene by the band In Extremo; who kinda mangle the text rather horribly. YouTube has a good example with some audience participation in the beginning.

Much more recommended would be the version by Saltatio Mortis (who call the song Leporina Venatio); or really anything from either Mediaeval Baebes, Corvus Corax or really anyone wielding a bagpipe. There's a horrible recording of Saltatio Mortis' version up on YouTube - don't judge them by that though. :)

"They laughed at me during mass, but I'll show them what mass is! Bwahahahah!!!"

Thus did altar boy Bill start down the path that led him to Criminal Mastermindness, a career that abruptly ended when a leak in the anti-matter container resulted in his home being replaced by a huge crater.

V. Gur Yvgnal ntnvafg Srne, Qhar
VV. Sebz Gur Yrsg Unaq bs Qnexarff (juvpu V jnf bayl fher bs qhr gb "xrzzreragrf".)
VVV. Gur Fgne Gerx vagebvg. (Creuncf "pbryhz nfgebehz" jbhyq or gur orfg ercynprzrag sbe "vanar"?)
VI. Qba'g xabj; purngrq naq cbxrq ng bguref' nafjref naq sbhaq V qvqa'g xabj gur obbx naq sryg orggre.
I. Fgne Jnef; V guvax vg'f Bov Jna'f fcrrpu gb Yhxr?
IV. Ybiryl, irel ybiryl. Gur Ebnq Tbrf Rire Ba sebz gur YbgE.
IVV. Nobhg Naqrefba'f snoyr bs Gur Rzcrebe'f Arj Pybgurf, ohg V qba'g erpbtavmr guvf cuenfvat; V guvax vg'f sebz nagbure pbagrkg V qba'g trg.
IVVV. V nyzbfg tnir hc ba guvf bar naq gura vg fhqqrayl pyvpxrq - vg'f gur cevaprff'f fbat sebz Gur Ynfg Havpbea
VK. Qvqa'g xabj ng svefg nf "qrbefhz" jnf hasnzvyvne; V bayl tbg vg sebz frrvat bguref' qvfphffvba bs gur jbeqvat, kxpq, rgp. Raqre'f Tnzr, "Gur rarzl'f tngr vf qbja"
K. Qba'g xabj; ng svefg tynapr gbbx vg sbe gur "Zngivzbaviz..." cnffntr sebz Gur Cevaprff Oevqr gung fbzrbar ryfr yngre jebgr, ohg nsgre ernqvat n srj fragraprf, fnj gung pbhyqa'g or vg.

Now that I've written this, I can go look at the rot-13ed answers for that last one.

Susan and Xopher, I think you should collaborate on a historical dance and linguistics quiz, so that you have your chance to make the Latin scholars feel completely stumped and undereducated. We can't all know everything, much as I've always wanted to.

I don't know her personally, but I discovered her writing recently in English, and was very impressed that she had translated it herself. Aside from the fluency in both languages that shows, it also shows a commitment to the work, as something worthy of the care she's uniquely able to bring to it, that I find admirable. If I could read French I'd read all her work in both languages to see how phrases and images diverge between the two.

Here's some more info on Lukas I ran across.

Well, Sam Tyler is a little guy, so I can see the attraction.

Argh. I have already discovered this game's equivalent of whatever you call the phenomenon of being imprinted by Tetris into "seeing" a continuous cascade of blocks when your eyes are closed, or when you're aimlessly staring at square bathroom tiles-- flowers slooowly unfurling, one after another.

Wish there were some way to save a particular plant from being replaced, esp. when back-crossing to fix a recessive trait. Some of the random mutations are really very random.

Clifton @ 320: Good suggestion, but I don't regularly listen to the Sisters of Mercy, so if it was an echo, it was a pretty dim and distant one. I've also got kind of a tin ear when it comes to recognizing music, so it was probably something much more general than that.

I write to dead people.

The rest of Roma Labens has been translated with no cheating. If anyone wants it, let me know.

Yep. Just like it sounds.

Blood monkey get up see students
Blood monkey hide in trees
Blood monkey just wants to mangle
All the humans that he sees.
Men say blood monkey very interesting
But his temper stinks
Too prone to aggressiveness and violence
What do blood monkey think?

Blood monkey think maybe scientists ought to make peace with coming death
Blood monkey not scream it out loud
Blood monkey likes them feisty, not cowed

Blood monkey likes victims
Blood monkey likes killing something new
Blood monkey very simple chimp
Big cruel teeth and taste for gore
Blood monkey wants you.

...I could go on, but really, there's no need.

How about starting with translating "Still Alive" into Latin?

(Jocularum est. HAHA. Fortuna magna!)

Re: Seed, I keep notepad open while I'm playing, and then drag any promising plants up into the little dna-showing thing. Then copy and paste the dna string into notepad. If I want that same plant back later, I copy the dna string into the game.

Why, yes, I did just start playing today, thanks to this thread. And I already have a "system." Seed is evil.

Right. Time to start reverse-engineering from the examples in the "shop".....

*I really did figure it before getting to the obvious bit that Bill Higgins pointed to; there ought to be \something/ analogous and usable, even if it looks a bit like Herb "Populus iamdudum defutatus est" Denenberg.

And if we're doing mistranslations, my favorite is "Cave canem": Beware, I may sing.

Mary@161: Boynton gets \half/ the credit; I know of the composer and think he finally found his level....

Steve@76: the half-price tickets booth in Times Square. Usually doesn't bring theater down to movie prices, but sometimes it's close. http://www.newvictory.org is a theater that does shows kids and grownups can appreciate -- I saw The Wolves in the Walls there. I second AHT's recommendation; there are more sedate listings, but Time Out (from the bit I've seen, and greater knowledge of the London original) is more likely to point out naked emperors and bring up hidden gems).

Gursky@105: Can you find Land of Unreason? The Blue Star? (I assume you know that NESFA has reprinted the complete Harold Shea stories.)

Chris@148: Did that line strike you as it did me as being the worst cross-character bit in the movie? Way too much of his best-known part leaking through....

dido@216: I don't see guesses on this (maybe due to my blindness), but it nags that I ought to recognize -- rot13'd answer? hints?

diatryma@256: that's obnoxious, but so is an alleged Credo beginning -"I believe in a God who will smite my enemies..."- (IIRC it was a translation of a Schubert collection of ~hymns that was for some reason called a mass.)

She did well enough, he did fine. A boy (as expected) apparently well and healthy. Has ten fingers, ten toes, and, two eyes, one set of lungs (perfectly functional) and the razor blades which pass for nails.

He and mother are doing well. Maia and I are wiped out.

Labor was a total of 20.5 hours. Notable labor was about 18. Serious labor was (depending on how one wants to measures such things) five hours, or 15 (once the epidural went in, things were much quieter).

Once she got to pushing, all was cake. Four good ones, and then hold a bit to prevent serious tearing on five, and then the kid was squalling his way to pinkness.

He wasn't, to everyone's amazement, squished looking.

Now to bed. I'll be posting some seed genotypes when I awaken.

I am all for old languages being taught in vivid ways, but if they're taught as living languages, I won't be able to learn them at all. So I'm sort of biased on this point.

I wonder how that came about?

Fade: I'm the same way; I can read French fairly fluently, German with labor and toil and (thanks to Latin) get the gist of Italian and Spanish but when I listen it's all gibberish and I freeze if expected to produce even, "Where's the bathroom?/Waiter there's a fly in my soup/ I have the pen of the gardener's aunt," style conversation.

Also: I need help. What does "obSF" stand for? I get the SF, but the Ob/ob is puzzling. "Observation derived from a data point originating with Science Fiction/Fantasy,"? And where does it come from?

Or is it just so late my brain has melted and I'm missing the point?

It means "OBligatory SF for this post", and comes from the days of Usenet and the like. People were taken to task (with greater or lesser frequency depending on the group and the mood of others) for off-topic posts, so a habit developed of making whatever your off-topic post was and then including your ObSF to placate those who would otherwise be peeved.

Doing it here is of course unnecessary, but the habit persists for the fun of it.

Mary Frances @ #345, I dunno about Clifton, but I suspect a Photoshopping prankster in the IT department of the PakTrib.

For the War on Iran, expect the Bush Administration to distribute maps of Oz, on the same principle...

... that hardly anyone (not enough to matter) will know the difference.

Meanwhile, Pakistan had better keep a close (and big flaming) eye on Waziristan!

But that's so obviously not Waziristan. It's like using a map of Florida for an article about Spain.

Xopher #294, Debbie #296, you can also getHarrius Potter et Philosophi Lapis*. Nevertheless I think there's a place for language guides that allow you to just about get by. I've been to Italy and Spain with only enough of local language to ask where does the bus go from and when does it arrive; this actually made me designated Italian speaker for a villa of four when we went out for a wedding. I found the bad phrasebook that didn't tell me how to say things in the imperfect tense, but did tell me the word for toilet roll very useful.

Not a good way to learn a language I agree.

* In the same gift shop where I first encountered this, I also ran into little tiny Venus di Milo copies labeled in latin and greek; my first thought on seeing the greek was "that doesn't say Venus, that's an Alpha, a Phi, a Rho... oh, yeah..."

Congratulations on the 22nd!

The Dalek sounds cool - I might have to look that up. My wife is a serious Whovian.

I'm warped. I just had a vision of a Dalek pope, who goes around shouting EXCOMMUNICATE! EXCOMMUNICATE!

Serge @360: Yup; hopefully it will be really funny. Abi? Shall I translate and rot13 them?

Also--one of my dearest friends is going to be so jealous when she hears about your Dalek. Congrats on the anniversary.

Has anyone else had a problem with Yahoo's security questions? I'm trying to retrieve my username and password. I've given my postcode, e-mail address and date of birth and been "rewarded" with my username. "Customer care" says they can't help me with my password unless I give them the answer to my security question: "Please provide us with the answer to the secret question you entered during your Yahoo! registration." Problem is, they refuse to ask me the question - I'm trying (so far without success) to explain that it's difficult to provide the correct answer if they won't ask the question...

Any ideas for explaining to them why this is a problem?

All suggestions gratefully received.

If you have the time, that would be really interesting to see. I suspect it'll highlight a fair few mistakes, but I'm content with that.

CHip @ 369: You wrote "them", so you were looking at the wrong part of that suggestion; it's the other part of that hint. Again, if you've read the work in question, the length and structure of the sentences should zing it.

Corrections and conjectures are noted in bold. Normally this would go in a apparatus criticus.

I beg indulgence for any errors in translation, conjecture or judgment.

Aliqui illustres loci communes:

Fbzr snzbhf pbzzba cnffntrf va yvgrengher.

1. Timendum non est mihi. Timor mentem caedet. Timor mortulus qui totam lituram ferat. Obviam timore meo ibo. Me transire et perire sinam. Et cum transiverit oculo interiore viam suam perspiciam. Ubi timor iit, nil erit. Ego solus manebo.

1. Gurer zhfg abg or n srnevat ol zr. Srne jbhaqf gur zvaq. Srne vf n yvggyr qrngu bs gur fbeg juvpu pneevrf gur jubyr renfher. V jvyy tb va gur jnl bs zl srne. V jvyy abg nyybj zlfrys gb cnff guebhtu naq crevfu. Rira jura V jvyy unir cnffrq guebhtu V jvyy vafcrpg zl yvsr jvgu na vaare rlr. Jurer srne unf tbar, abguvat jvyy rkvfg. V nybar jvyy erznva.

2. Lux laeva obscuritatis
et obscuritas dextra lucis.
Duo unus sunt, vita morsque, iacens
una quasi amatores kemmerentes
quasi manus conjuncti
quasi finis viaque.

2. Gur unccl yvtug bs bofphevgl
naq gur cebcvgvbhf bofphevgl bs gur yvtug.
Gjb ner bar, yvsr naq qrngu, ylvat
gbtrgure nf vs xrzzreragrf ner ybiref
nf vs unaqf unir orra pbawbvarq
nf vs gur raq naq gur ebnq rkvfg.

3. Inane…ultimus limes. Hi cursi navis stellis Incepti. Eius quinquennialum munus: insolitos novos mundos explorare, vitam novam civitatesque novas quaerere, ubi nemo ante ivit intrepide ire.*

Ibvq . . . gur svany guerfuubyq. Gurfr ner gur wbhearlf bs gur fuvc sbe gur fgnef Ortvaavat. Vgf svir lrne qhgl: hanpphfgbzrq arj jbeyqf gb rkcyber, arj yvsr naq arj fgngrf gb frrx, jurer ab bar orsber unf tbar obyqyl gb tb.

4. Reginula aurea volavit
Ad mare sibulans
Ut sinus obsteterit
Et ova servaverit
Fortiter audivit ea.

4. Gur yvggyr tbyqra dhrra unf ebyyrq
gb gur frn juvfcrevat
nf fur fgbbq va gur jnl bs gur onlf
naq cerfreirq ure rttf
obyqyl fur yvfgrarq.

5. Numen Iedaio vim suum dat. Ager vigoris est qui omnia viva creat. Nos circumfundit penetratque. Omnes res conligat.

5. N qvivar cbjre tvirf vg’f sbepr gb Wrqnvhf. Gur snez bs fgeratgu vf gung juvpu perngf nyy yvivat guvatf. Vg cbhef bhg nebhaq hf naq crargengrf hf. Vg ovaqf nyy guvatf gbtrgure.

6. Via semper usque it
Unde coeperuntianuae./ coepit ianua
Nunc longe Via praeivit,
Et persequi, si possum,
Avidis debeo pedibus,
Dum maioram iungietur
In munerum coetu.
Et quoquo tunc? Nescio.

6. Gur ebnq tbf nyjnlf ba nyy fvqrf
sebz jurer gur qbbef unir ortha.
Abj gur ebnq tbrf sne orsber,
naq gb chefhr, vs V pna
V bhtug jvgu terrql srrg,
juvyr vg jvyy or wbvarq va erfcrpg gb gur terngre ebnq
va n tngurevat bs tvsgf.
naq gb jung rire cynpr gura? V qba’g xabj.

7. Semper ius (suggestion: “fas”) puerum puerorum** stultorumque est imperatorem sine veste monstrare. Sed stultus manet stultus imperatorque imperator . *I’m not sure why the original abl. here and am afraid I'm missing something.

Vg vf nyjnlf evtug sbe puvyqera naq sbbyf gb cbvag ng gur Pbzznaqre jvgubhg pybguvat. Ohg gur sbby erznvaf n sbby naq gur pbzznaqre n pbzznaqre.

8. Filia sum regis
Et si curare curem
Luna indominata
In crinem coruscet.
Nemo amare audet
Quod avere opto
Numquam egevi
Et non tenui.

Filia sum regis
Et veteresco intra
Carcerem corporis
Compedesque cutis.
Et ego fugam
Ad ianuasque mendicem
Ut umbram tuam videam
Semel nec iterum.
8. V nz gur qnhtugre bs n xvat,
naq vs V fubhyq or pbaprearq gb pner
gur zbba univat orra hapbadhrerq
jvyy synfu va zl unve.
Ab bar qnerf gb ybir
Jung V pubbfr gb jnag
V unir arire jnagrq
naq qvq abg unir.

V nz gur qnhtugre bs n xvat
naq jvguva V tebj byq
B! gur cevfba bs gur obql
naq gur punvaf bs gur fxva!
V nyfb jvyy syrr
naq jvyy or n orttne ng gur qbbef
va beqre gung V znl frr lbhe funqbj
bapr naq abg ntnva.

9. Portus Porta† hostium deorsum.

9. Gur tngrf bs gur rarzvrf ner qbjajneq.

10. Amor. Si omnes numeres ‘Versi sciens inamandum navem in aerem te ferre , ea certe ut mundi convertunt te decutiet. Amor eam in aeram cadendam tenet doloremque ante vagens dicit. Domus facit.

10. Ybir. Vs lbh fubhyq pbhag nyy gur zra bs gur ‘Irefhf, xabjvat gung lbh pneel n fuvc juvpu zhfg abg or ybirq vagb gur hccre nve, gung (fuvc) pregnvayl jvyy phg lbh qbja jura gur jbeyqf bireghea. Ybir ubyqf vg sbe gur checbfr bs nterrvat jvgu gur nve naq ybir orsber jnaqrevat fnlf “fnqarff.” Vg znxrf ubzrf.

Agnoscite, reddite, addite, gaudete. Lex Calvinballis pertinet. Omnes coniecturas ROT-13ite.

Erpbtavmr, erghea, nqq, erwbvpr. Gur Ynj bs Pnyivaonyy ubyqf. Ebg-13 nyy thrffrf.

Subicit Patricius:

1. Ne Noli‡ armato merdam iace iacere‡.
2. Ne Noli‡ iuxta armato merdam iacentem sta stare‡.

Cngevpx fhozvgf:

1) Qba’g guebj fuvg ng n zna univat orra nezrq.
2) Qba’g fgnaq arne fbzrbar guebjvat fuvg ng na nezrq zna.

Thanks. Geek Love indeed. Here 's how K9 responded to the Dalek intruder's threats of extermination.

A few minutes of searching for Waziristan got me this. The map clearly has satirical intent there. Has someone in the Pakistan Tribune got lazy?

And congratulations, Serge!

So April Foolery does appear to be at the heart of it. Originally, anyway.

(The d2g file is older, September 2006.)

Even in my native language, I'm frequently uncomfortable and full of stammering when I try to speak quickly out loud. Auditory input is so damn ephemeral, and I can't always remember by the time I get to the end of a sentence what I was saying at the beginning. And as someone very fond of long, well-constructed sentences*, it drives me utterly batty to trip over my own words like that. So learning a language where I'm forced to speak it is pure pain, especially when it starts by teaching me how to introduce myself, order from a menu, or what not.

Latin was always so beautifully dry and pinned down. They started off by teaching me how to construct simple "X is Y" sentences, and I loved the language ever after for that. I would love to take up Latin again, and learn how to compose in it; my few attempts at Latin poetry were quite dreadful, but I wanted to do more. It felt like a sort of language I could write poetry in, and I never felt that way about other languages I learned, even ones I spent years on.

* Not necessarily good at them, mind. But fond, yes.

Nice work, and thanks for the feedback. I did better than I feared. Where appropriate, I've corrected the Latin and credited you.

1. me in the fifth sentence is intended as the direct object of perire rather than the subject accusative with an infinitive (timor perit me); should I have restated timorem at this stage to make the subject clear? That is why the verb in the next sentence is transiverit rather than transiverim. Original source is here.

2. I should have said Lux laeva obscuritatis est, etc, I think. Laeva and dextra are nouns in this context. The rest is about right. Original source is about halfway down this page.

3. This was pretty well spot on. I feel smug. The original is the first entry here.

4. Some verb confusion here. Volo -are -avi -atum is, in my dictionary, "to fly". And the final verb should be from audeo rather than audio. Looking again, I see that it's semi-deponent; should I have said ausa est? It's the first stanza from this song.

5. Ager can also mean "field". The lack of terms for things like energy fields is a grave lack in the Latin language, I often think. The first quote here is the source.

6. This came out pretty well, apart from the second line. Via should have been the source of coepit as well as it, leaving ianuae as a genetive of source. See the original. Any advice is welcome.

7. I really wasn't sure maneo would lead to another nominative in each clause, so I took a wild guess at the case. The first quote on this page is the original.

8. This came out surprisingly well. The second stanza suffers a little; I didn't make it clear enough that carcerem and compedes both follow intra. This rather regrettable page has the original. (It's mostly on the web as sigs, bad fanfic knockoffs, and MySpace profiles.)

9. Porta is fem sing; portum means "port". I got it wrong too. (The original has been ROT-13'd in the thread, and is so short it's not easy to find a good link to it.)

10. numeres was intended to be "math". That whole sentence is a mess, I think. The third line of dialog in the first section of this page has it.

The rest is pretty clear.

99.1, 0x7db086, 4, 11, 35.5, 0.4, 1.2, 1.4, 56.5, 75.2, 0.5, 2, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.1, 0xe4b224, 0x82e96b, 6.0, 12.8, 8, 11, 0.0, 0.3

86.9, 0xc1b6d5, 5, 11, 34.9, 0.3, 1.3, 1.4, 53.9, 76.4, 0.6, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.4, -0.2, 0xceab29, 0x5eb27d, 6.0, 12.8, 9, 11, 0.2, 0.0

I like it. I find I aim for tall, angular, single blossoms.

I'm trying to make either a joshua tree, or a eucalyptus.

On the other hand, I don't seem to be able to download the program. I'd like a copy, so I can play with the auto-evolve feature in the background.

I've not yet started trying to figure out which places express what features. I have made some hideous sports, which lead to interesting secondary effects, when bred into other lines.

I have discovered I'm keeping seedbeds, and then crossing them, so I can work on specific features; and then cross-breed (say a rounded double blossom to a quad; that leads to triples, but odd numbers seem to be less stable, and revert to even).

When travelling in the Arnhem-Nijmegen area, you might perhaps be interested in the Museumspark Orientalis near Nijmegen.
Around 1900, the area belonged to a small protestant church whose leading minister had, ahem, grandiose plans: He wanted to build an cathedral that would have been bigger than St. Peter in Rome. Before they went broke, they managed to finish the intended Pilgrims' House (today a permanent exhibition) and a "Pilgrim's Holy Land" with ersatz places from the time of Jesus.

Today it is owned by the local or provincial authority and completely remade as an non-religious archeologically correct Judaea-themed open air museum. The former "Bethlehem" is a generic rural village with good info about Palestine around CE (and scary Great Dane-sized, very curious goats), the old "Palace of Pilatus" and the "Synedrion" are now connected by a new generic Near Eastern city street (with the nice "Roman Inn" restaurant with Roman, Jewish and Bedouin cooking, btw) - in short, entertaining and educational and not missionary at all.

Their website is at http://www.bijbelsopenluchtmuseum.nl/ The english language version does not seem to work, alas.

Don't do that! Once that kind of an itch gets in my skull I have to follow it through. It's all your fault that I'm going to be tired tomorrow.

The Latin is patchier than the translations that started this thread, but it is just about singable (to the original tune, of course). You have to scramble some word emphasis, but that's not unusual in song anyway.

Iam vivo

Fuit triumphus.
Notam appono:
OPTIMUS.
Mea voluptas
Augenda non est.
Ars Foramentis
Agendum agemus
Quod possumus.
Omnibus prosumus nos
Praeter hos mortuos.
Sed imprudens omnes
Errores deplorat.
Usque modo temptas
Donec edis coptas.
Et est ars factus
Et nitidus arcus
Pro hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Non quidem irascor.
Sincera valde sum iam.
Quamquam cordem fregis et
Necavis
Et comminuis me
Et omnes in ignem iacuis.
Cum ardebant dolebam
Quod gaudebam tibi!
Nunc hi loci facent
Lineam formosam.
Et ex beta sumus
Liberamus cito.
Ergo gaudeo ignem
Propter quae didicimus
Pro hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Perge, desere.
Credo manere me intus.
Alium invenies
Iuvandum.
Nigera Mensa?
IOCUS FUIT, HA HA, QUASI.
Sed haec coptas umidae
Tamque suavae sunt
Vide me iam dicere dum ars facenda.
Dum prospicio
Gaudeo non te esse.
Nam ego experiar
Et investigabor hic
Cum hominibus qui
Viviunt.

Et crede me vivere iam
Artem facio et vivo iam
Vere gaudeo et vivo iam
Dum morieris ego viviam
Dum mortua eris viviam
Iam vivo
Iam vivo

The inevitable corrections are welcome.

I'd suggest a "Cheney/Mekon '08" bumper sticker, except that Dick looks like he is the
Mekon, albeit the latter really put on weight since his glory days. Or am I again seeing similarities where there are none?

Thoughts, suggestions, confessions:

1)I'm not sure "pereo" works; linguistically it should be okay, but I've never seen it used transitively. Sadly, I can't think of anything that comes close to the needed meaning other than "transeo." In any case I think you might want to add an "eum" to make it clear that "me" isn't the acc. subject.

2. Ouch. Screwed that one up, didn't I? It's tough to get that in Latin though because the most common meaning of both those words is "propitious." Maybe tweak the metaphor and talk about the sides of a coin? Alternatively I think putting "dextra" and "laeva" after the genitive might help.

3. Agreed. Very nice. I did have to cheat a little bit to make it sound clunkier in English.

4. Well, "volvavit" is another straight screw up; "rolled" would be "volvit." But you do need "ausa est" for "dared." I think you want a purpose clause for "save" so "ut servet" rather than the perf. subj. and "undis" seems better than "sinus."

5. Yeah. I totally cheated; I knew it wasn't supposed to be that kind of "ager." This source really demands a language with articles, huh?

6. Ah! Gotcha. I think "de ianuis" might be clearer, and I do think it needs to go on the other side of "unde." If you use "dum . . . iungiatur" you get a more anticipatory flavor, "Until it should . .." LOVED the word order, especially in line 5--so Vergilian!

7. "Manet" is a copulative when used in that sense, so needs a pred. nom.

8. This is another one where I cheated like all get out. I know the original poem by heart so I probably went to far in the other direction. Maybe "inter" instead of "intra"? It's more commonly used as the preposition. But probably not necessary since it took an effort of will to pretend you were going for an accusative of exclamation. "Luna indominita" is wonderful and you really nailed all the word play.

10. This is a bear; so colloquial! I think I'd have to poke at the English quite a bit to come up with anything.

Number 3 is hilarious, but I really do love #'s 6 & 8 especially; I can't identify the meter, except that they aren't classical prosody. 8 seems like a very close match to the original rhythm, but not 6.)

Not in front of the puer, I hope.

roomba-cam versus cat

Congratulations and Happy Anniversary! I hope you have a very Dalek celebration.

98.9, 0x938fa5, 7, 13, 40.9, 0.9, 1.9, 1.4, 51.5, 39.2, 1.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 1.6, -0.2, -0.4, -0.9, 0x5992b0, 0x466a50, 5.5, 2.7, 12, 11, 0.1, 0.5

I'm now going to cross it with the Cthulu, and the basic model, leaving it to mutate while I go to the hospital to visit someone how had a surgery, and the mother and child.

The first corss (Cthulu to basic) looks like:

97.2, 0x4e476d, 6, 34, 48.0, 0.5, 3.0, 1.3, 65.8, 19.6, 1.4, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.2, -0.9, 0xac6258, 0xa2b4a7, 5.3, 8.3, 7, 7, 0.6, 0.5

Not that anybody ever noticed. But, if you weren't familiar with the language being translated, how would you know?

"Celebrate! Ce-le-brate!"

"Mister Gorn, when you say you want me over for dinner, what do you mean?"

Crichton: Slick as snot
Aeryn: the tanslator microbes must have gotten that one wrong.

These, in turn, strike me as reasonable purposes for linguistics students.

My Syriac teacher, especially, tended to be dismissive of teaching composition in dead languages, on the grounds that you couldn't be sure, or even reasonably confident, that you'd gotten it right. He was fond of saying, "Carl Brockelmann only ever composed one sentence in Syriac, and it was wrong."

While abridging the Doctrine of Addai for his Syriac chresthomathy, Brockelmann found it necessary to write a sentence to join two sections together. In it, he used a lamed to mark the direct object of a verb, which is unexceptional in Syriac, except that subsequent research showed that it couldn't be used with that particular type of verb. The moral was that there are always more grammatical rules in a dead language than anyone living now knows about, which is good news for linguists who want to write papers, but worse news for people who want to compose grammatically-correct sentences in those languages.

Also, I'm kind of appalled that the wikipedia article on Carl Brockelmann is a stub. On the other hand, I really don't want to do the research and write an article myself.

"Brattleboro residents will vote at town meeting on whether President George Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney should be indicted and arrested for war crimes, perjury or obstruction of justice if they ever step foot in Vermont."

35.7, 0x990000, 10, 10, 66.4, 0.0, 1.1, 1.5, 40.0, 78.6, 1.0, 2, 0.3,0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.1, 0.0,-0.4, 0x330000, 0x0066cc, 5.0, 10.0, 6, 18,0.5, 0.3

It's really pretty, red stems, with small; very pointed, blue flowers.

Is there a current language, spoken by a large population, which has the sorts of grammatical structures used in Latin? What differences are there between the formal style of the written language, and how people speak?

FABRICATUS GLORIANAM!

I should really stop even trying until I read a genuine Latin grammar.
(have them imagining to I will mangle Englishness similarly like way?)

Congratulations, [subject_name_here]! Now you may have some moist, delicious cake.

There are huge differences in the spoken, and written styles.

There is a lot of case ending, (esp. the genitive) which is falling out of spoken, but persists (because it has to; so long as word order is fluid).

One of the things I've noticed, as a non-native speaker, is the greater use of participles in written Russian. Things which, in print, look passive, but aren't.

It makes a lot of translations horrid. Active intent, which is presented to the non-speaker as a passive thougt. It's especially bad in poetry. I recall reading a Pushkin poem, in Russian (which I'd read in translation, long before I spoke any Russian. Several translations, some of which I thought were awful, but I didn't know why; save they varied, a lot, from versions I did like) and laughing, because I saw why I'd hating those other translations (abi... that whole chunk of parenthtetical statement; and this one, are examlples the каториы clauses I referred to earlier).

In those, terrible, translations, the, apparently passive, constructs had been translated literally. The, very active, meaning had been lost; because the translator kept the gramatic construct, without figuring out how to keep the actual sentiment.

Now I must to bed; it's been a long couple of days.

dido @ 394... "Manet" is a copulative
Not in front of the puer, I hope.

The puer, often enough, is party to these things. See for instance the Carmina Burana:

Si puer cum puellula
moraretur in cellula,
felix coniunctio.
Amore succrescente,
pariter e medio
propulso procul taedio,
fit ludus ineffabilis
membris, lacertis, labiis.

It is one of my absolute favorites from that particular work.

Eheu mihi!
Eheu mihi!
Olim arborem habebam cricetum,
Sed voratum salamandro;
Iam fructes amplexandis* non habeo.

*I'm almost certain this is wrong**, but could someone help me with a better word for phqqyl?

**The rest of it may be too.

Oh, well, I'm going to post mine anyway. People can have fun comparing them, and correcting mine. Unlike you, I made no attempt to make it singable to the original melody; I was seduced by the fact that "for the people who are still alive" can be rendered in Latin with one word, and there is just no way to recover from that.

Anyway, here we go:

Triumphus erat.
Noto ibi: EVENTUM INGENS.
Difficile est exaggerare voluptatem meam.
Foramen Scientia:
Facimus quod facendum est
Quoniam possumus.
Bono nostrum omnium
Nisi mortuorum.
Inutile autem flere errorem omnem,
Modo conaris ad placentam deest.
Atque scientia perficitur
Tormentumque facis
Viventibus adhuc.

Ne iram quidem habeo,
Ego tanta sincera sum hoc tempore,
Cum tu cor meum fregeris meque necaris.
Atque me scideris
Ac omnen partem in ignem jeceris.
Cum ferverent dolebam quoniam
Tibi gaudebam.
Nunc puncti spectati faciunt aciem bellam,
Et beta-examen perfecimus, mittimus temporane.
Gaudeo igitur me arsa esse,
Cogita de omnibus quae comperimus,
Viventibus adhuc.

Certes me relinque.
Puto manere intus malle.
Fortasse invenies aliquem alium te iuvare.
Fortasse Mesa Nigra....
PER RIDICULUM. FORS FORTIS.
Haec placenta enim mirabilis,
delectabilissima tenerrimaque.
Vide me adhuc loquentem cum sit scientia facere!
Cum foras videam me te non esse gaudeo.
Habeo experimentis fungi,
Est exquaesitio faci,
Viventibus adhuc.

Et crede mihi, sum viva.
Scientiam facio, sumque viva.
Valeo ingenter, sumque viva.
Cum moriaris, ero viva.
Cum mortua sis, ero viva.
Viva.
Viva.

I got a lot of help from William Whitaker's Words, also from the Perseus Project's online Lewis & Short.

Meredith Dixon, who originally drew me into Latin by posting about her online beginner's group on rasseff, has a web page of "Carmina Popularia". Why don't you send your version to her?

By the way, while we're correcting your originals, shouldn't number 5 have "...quem omnia viva creant"? Accusative case on the relative pronoun, and plural number for the verb.

Here's another one of mine, easy enough but from a slightly obscure source:

Et lucebo lucem super tenebrosum malum, namque non possunt tenebrosa lucem ferre! Lucem lanternae viridis!

Which of the grammatical structures are you thinking of, all of them? and also how big is a large population?

Original site:
http://www.addictinggames.com/seed.html

Deviant-Art mirror:
http://n-dr01d.deviantart.com/art/seed-69663347

Julie L./Wombat 1138's DNA hacking:
http://wombat1138.livejournal.com/101669.html

Seed patterns from ML:

Julie L. (wombat1138):

Just one BIG flower: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xeeee66, 10101010, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

Cthulhu tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 5, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 1.6, 2, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.2, 3.0, -0.2, 0.0, -1.0, 0xff3300, 0xffffff, 5.0, 14.0, 2, 2, 1.0, 0.5

On her Wombat page:

sorta Bellflower: 95.4, 0xc3264, 4, 8, 29.0, 0.6, 1.6, 1.1, 20.8, 31.0, 1.1, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 1.9, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0x9fa8e4, 0x8f86de, 7.4, 10.0, 0, 9, 2.0, 0.0

passionflower tree: 95.4, 0x90036, 3, 55, 55.0, 0.1, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 3, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 1.9, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0x9fa8e4, 0x8f86de, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

splat, looks nicer than it sounds: 95.4, 0x90036, 3, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 3, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0x9a2112, 0xffffff, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

megasplat, ditto: 95.4, 0x90036, 1, 55, 55.0, 0.0, 4.0, 1.2, 80.0, 0.0, 0.1, 11, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0xb8f47c, 0x9a2112, 7.4, 10.0, 12, 9, 0.0, 0.8

Terry Karney

Blue square: 99.1, 0x7db086, 4, 11, 35.5, 0.4, 1.2, 1.4, 56.5, 75.2, 0.5, 2, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.1, 0xe4b224, 0x82e96b, 6.0, 12.8, 8, 11, 0.0, 0.3

Green 2-layer: 86.9, 0xc1b6d5, 5, 11, 34.9, 0.3, 1.3, 1.4, 53.9, 76.4, 0.6, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.4, -0.2, 0xceab29, 0x5eb27d, 6.0, 12.8, 9, 11, 0.2, 0.0

Black Mum: 98.9, 0x938fa5, 7, 13, 40.9, 0.9, 1.9, 1.4, 51.5, 39.2, 1.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 1.6, -0.2, -0.4, -0.9, 0x5992b0, 0x466a50, 5.5, 2.7, 12, 11, 0.1, 0.5

by a friend- red stems, small very pointy blue flowers: 35.7, 0x990000, 10, 10, 66.4, 0.0, 1.1, 1.5, 40.0, 78.6, 1.0, 2, 0.3,0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, 0.1, 0.0,-0.4, 0x330000, 0x0066cc, 5.0, 10.0, 6, 18,0.5, 0.3

-------------------------------------

DeviantArt plants:

N-Dr01d's contribution picks:

charisima => Starflower: 33.0, 0x957b79, 7, 6, 44.2, 0.3, 1.4, 1.1, 30.9, 77.1, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 2.1, 0.0, 0.7, -0.2, 0x20205b,
0xffffff, 6.4, 4.5, 7, 4, 0.1, 0.4

preteniousloser => Bushcandy (??? couldn't get info)

DreamingExperience => Glowbright 54.0, 0x80af7b, 3, 7, 33.5, 0.2, 1.4, 1.1, 53.9, 80.1, 0.7, 2, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, 0.0, 0.4, 0.4, 0x53451c, 0xefd5d8, 6.5, 6.4, 8, 9, 0.3, 0.3

NiennaFelagund => Snowflakes 45.1, 0x835e30, 4, 6, 39.0, 0.6, 1.0, 1.2, 25.0, 55.3, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 1.5, -0.1, 0.8, -0.7, 0xd6caec, 0xfffcf9, 5.0, 8.3, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.6

Eclipsed-Reality => Shurikara 100.0, 0x0,0,0,0,0,0,0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 20, 0, 1, 0x0, 0xffffff, 50.0, 10, 4, 0, 0, 1.0

alischan => Snowplant 7.3, 0x7qc8878, 6, 9, 36.9, 0.2, 2.2, 1.3, 42.4, 90.0, 0.5, 4, 0.0, 0.4, 0.0, 0.1, 1.3, -0.0, 0.1, -0.0, 0x9afdd1, 0xfff8f9, 5.7, 6.0, 8, 9, 0.4, 1.6

hiei14 => Prisu Sakura 57.3, 0x7f5559, 5, 8, 33.5, 0.4, 1.0, 1.2, 25.9, 52.9, 0.0, 3, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 1.5, -0.0, 0.3, -0.4, 0xcf7aa8, 0xf9e4ee, 5.1, 8.8, 6, 5, 0.4, 0.7

daliciously => Yellow Daisies 70.1, 0x27403c, 4, 6, 28.2, 0.6, 1.8, 1.2, 26.3, 70.5, 0.7, 2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 1.1, -0.0, 0.2, -0.5, 0xb2b2b2, 0xccb29a, 5.4, 9.8, 10, 18, 0.5, 0.8

Mirumitsu => Painthand rose 17.5, 0x202508, 6, 8, 37.6, 0.4, 1.7, 1.4, 42.0, 90.0, 0.3, 3, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 0.1, 1.9, 0.0, 0.2, -0.4, 0xc5d4d0, 0xb03f7c, 5.7,4.0, 8, 8, 0.5, 1.4

From DA comments:

liea -- prettyprettypretty: 49.4, 0x424a50, 5, 11, 30.7, 0.1, 1.0, 1.4, 40.0, 80.7, 0.1, 4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.1, -0.2, 0xfa8dd2, 0xfce6f3, 5.0, 6.1, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.9

Casstic's boxing dahlia: 15.5, 0x7c7554, 5, 4, 40.0, 0.3, 1.0, 1.1, 60.0, 90.0, 0.1, 3, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, -0.1, 0.7, 0.4, 0x745a6c, 0xff8bc6, 6.5, 2.8, 5, 4, 0.3, 0.5

Sponkoo: 29.5, 0x415e11, 6, 5, 40.6, 0.4, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 87.5, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.3, 0xe5b5b3, 0x86b163, 5.0, 5.9, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.8

20.3, 0x414f09, 7, 4, 40.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 73.2, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.7, -0.2, 0xe6b4c6, 0xc26478, 5.0, 5.2, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.8

35.0, 0x7d777f, 4, 7, 35.0, 0.0, 1.5, 1.2, 60.0, 85.0, 0.1, 2, 0.1, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, 0.0, 0.4, 0.4, 0x7f446e, 0xdfddf9, 6.5, 3.5, 5, 4, 0.3, 0.5

20.1, 0x688f66, 5, 4, 40.1, 0.2, 1.5, 1.2, 60.0, 81.6, 0.2, 3, 0.0, 0.3, 0.0, 0.1, 1.5, -0.1, 0.8, 0.4, 0x703047, 0xc190b6, 6.5, 3.1, 5, 5, 0.2, 0.4

11.0, 0x120a, 7, 6, 48.2, 0.6, 1.3, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 3.4, 0.1, 0.2, 0.2, 0xa3773c, 0x8b11a7, 5.0, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.2

11.0, 0xc5333, 7, 6, 50.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0xa3773c, 0x8f1ab2, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

11.0, 0xc5333, 7, 6, 43.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.2, 0.0, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0x61ecc3, 0x8f1ab2, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

11.0, 0xc5333, 6, 6, 43.1, 0.8, 1.5, 1.3, 33.5, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 2.8, 0.1, 0.8, 0.5, 0x79b027, 0x52191e, 8.3, 18.4, 6, 4, 1.8, 1.9

Mastermee: 20.3, 0x414f09, 7, 4, 40.3, 0.5, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 73.2, 0.1, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.7, -0.2, 0xe6b4c6, 0xc26478, 5.0, 5.2, 6, 6, 0.3, 0.8

29.5, 0x415e11, 6, 5, 40.6, 0.4, 1.0, 1.3, 40.0, 87.5, 0.0, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.3, 0xe5b5b3, 0x86b163, 5.0, 5.9, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.8

50.2, 0x48712b, 5, 4, 32.7, 0.7, 1.8, 1.2, 25.0, 64.5, 0.7, 4, 0.0, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.0, -0.1, 0.5, -0.2, 0xaf8a8e, 0xd29771, 5.0, 9.3, 10, 15, 0.6, 0.9

The other night, Sue and I were watching Casino Royale when I mentionned that shortie(*) Daniel Craig had played a killer monk in the 1990s movie Elizabeth.

At which Sue said that maybe his ID had been Double-O-Heaven.

(*) Well, I am 2 inches taller than he is.

If a boy
And a little girl
Reside together in a small chamber
Their meeting will be happy.
The growing love
Is created in their midst
Boredom is driven far off
By the unmentionable game
Played with limbs, arms and lips

What kind of theme song can you sing with that? And if they have one, will "braless" be one of the rhymes?

So it's a valid title on a technicality.

It's possible that the film will be nearer the story of that name than was Moonraker.

I was always astonished by how the Universal Translator created, in real time, the simulacrum of a straight white male anglo-saxon protestant character, not matter how many arms, heads, or stomachs the being might have. Even when they were half-white and half-black. Somehow I always failed my saving throw versus incredulity.

Some other people's DNA investigations are listed here and here.

In French, 'long live!' is 'vive!', in Castillian, Portuguese, Galician, and Italian it is 'viva!', why is it 'visca!' in Catalan and Occitan?

Am I correct in inferring that "ars" is the the more general and classical term, whereas "scienta" is more modern and specific?

Actually, looking up the etymology for "science", I note that 'Modern sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1678', and 'Main modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions ... concerning any subject or speculation" is attested from 1725'.

Also: 'To blind (someone) with science "confuse by the use of big words or complex explanations" is attested from 1937, originally noted as a phrase from Australia and New Zealand.'

: Deploying surprise in 5... 4...

Thanks for the suggestion. If my latest e-mail doesn't elicit a sensible response, I'll try that.

Please forgive me taking so long to answer -- I was snowed under by catering work last week, and then on the weekend I was busy going to New York to see the Red Bull production of "Edward II." First live theater I'd seen in YEARS, and SO WORTH IT. They claim to be contemplating a production of "Titus Andronicus" in the future and if they do I will NOT miss it!

That said... super-masculine hunks wearing lipstick? If they don't want it, they can send it over HERE! *g*

I'm involved in an effort to put together an online film magazine, and on the planning message board we've been proposing our alternate Oscars. One of the other writers proposed a "Worst James Bond movie title ever" award just for Quantum of Solace. Me, I'm hoping that they work the title into the theme song somehow. And that they get someone better than Chris Cornell to sing it.

Bruce Cohen (StM) #431: But...but...Star Trek was so inclusive! People of all races were equally able to achieve, which is why the Enterprise crew was 90% white! They don't call 'em "minorities" for nothin'.

Quantum Solaci?
(Hey, this time I looked it up - genitive case, right? Right? No? Damn.)

Are you forgetting Octopussy or are you pretending it never happened?

Octopussy does indeed rank up there, but I forgave it for being in the Roger Moore Silly Bond period.

If I haven't got this totally wrong, then I suspect you are thinking of "Sit".

I'm appreciating the Latin conversation, by the way, but I'm way too busy to contribute anything other than drive-bys.

24.9, 0x5b734d, 4, 5, 38.3, 0.5, 1.4, 1.2, 45.9, 83.1, 1.6, 1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.0, 0.7, 0.4, 0x716c53, 0xd17a90, 6.8, 25.0, 1, 1, 0.8, 0.0

Was it random, bred to, or intentionally designed?

I did do some cross-breeding.

24.9, 0x5b734d, 4, 5, 38.3, 0.5, 1.4, 1.2, 45.9, 83.1, 1.6, 1, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.0, 0.7, 0.4, 0x716c53, 0xd17a90, 6.8, 25.0, 1, 1, 0.8, 0.0

X

93.9, 0xb2bebe, 3, 11, 56.8, 0.1, 1.6, 1.2, 61.8, 58.5, 0.6, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.1, -0.8, 0x10beff, 0xffdfd1, 12.7, 5.2, 11, 8, 2.0, 1.4

X

93.9, 0xb2bebe, 3, 11, 56.8, 0.1, 1.6, 1.2, 61.8, 58.5, 0.6, 4, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 0.2, 2.3, -0.2, -0.1, -0.8, 0x10beff, 0xffdfd1, 12.7, 5.2, 11, 8, 2.0, 1.4

=

42.2, 0x708569, 4, 7, 42.9, 0.4, 1.5, 1.2, 49.9, 76.9, 1.3, 2, 0.1, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.9, -0.0, 0.5, 0.1, 0x58807e, 0xdc93a0, 8.3, 20.1, 4, 3, 1.1, 0.4

I like the last.

It's random. Sometimes I just interupt the flow, add in a tree I like, then force some crossing to see it doesn't bottleneck out, and then let it go on some more.

A few times, running auto-evolve for a few hours has yielded trees of big, black blobs. When I lived on the Texas Gulf coast, we called those Dow Chemical Trees.

Fluorescent overload: 11.0, 0x177f7d, 7, 6, 50.1, 0.8, 1.8, 1.3, 37.1, 82.4, 0.8, 4, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0.0, 4.0, 0.1, 0.5, 0.2, 0xa377ff, 0xff1ab2, 15.0, 19.0, 7, 4, 0.5, 2.0

pink/green snowflower 49.4, 0x424a50, 5, 11, 30.7, 0.1, 1.0, 1.4, 40.0, 80.7, 0.1, 4, 0.1, 0.1, 0.0, 0.0, 1.0, -0.1, 0.1, -0.2, 0xfa8dd2, 0xfce6f3, 5.0, 6.1, 6, 6, 0.5, 0.9

Electro-Broccoli : 68.4, 0x6ca26e, 9, 9, 55.8, 0.0, 1.9, 1.3, 12.6, 90.0, 0.7, 3, 0.0, 0.2, 0.0, 0.1, 1.4, 0.2, 0.8, 0.0, 0x5adc64, 0x47743f, 5.7, 1.0, 8, 13, 0.2, 0.2

Sapphire star: 15.9, 0x7a3926, 7, 8, 48.8, 0.3, 1.3, 1.3, 43.0, 82.2, 1.3, 2, 0.2, 0.1, 0.0, 0.1, 1.4, 0.1, 0.3, 0.0, 0x523629, 0x6870ae, 5.9, 17.5, 4, 10, 0.7, 0.1

Stet = Yrg Vg Or

The game designer has kindly sent me a list of the variable names, although I'm not sure whether it's cleared for public consumption; he has been providing it to other people as well, though. I'm *still* not sure how the branch structure is controlled, and I've also observed an interesting effect on the AddictingGames version where the radius of the central circle becomes semi-randomized among different flowers on the same plant; so far I haven't been able to locate that-- it might be an unexpected interaction from several other genes, as functional flowers can still generate from values outside the listed range.

Also, despite the presence of the "Seed Genome Project" post on the semi-official board, that other list was also experimentally compiled by another player and is not entirely correct.

For the aviation geeks.

That's the extent of my extant Latin.

Everybody's a winner!

David Goldfarb #285 - Why in Life on Mars fanfic is Phyllis, a self-proclaimed sex goddess, always left out***? My idea for a Life on Mars fanfic would involve Gene Hunt being involved in a car accident and waking up in 1940, where he could chase Nazi spies, War profiteers and complex crimes involving people faking their deaths in the blitz.

* "He's Batman, Doc Savage and a WWF star all rolled into one!"
** Well, El Santo might be cracking up under his mask for all we could tell.
*** I haven't actually looked.

Because wenn sie konnen nicht sprechen deutsch, but you can see "der letzte Mensch auf der Erde ist nicht allein" and immediately tell you're reading an "I am legend" ad, you know your sprache is das kind.

I noticed, for example, that when sitting in a crowded place where everyone else is speaking German, the white-noise blended background noise came close to sounding like English. I could forget, for a few minutes, that I was far away from home. I've never gotten that feeling from other languages.

Which is the opposite of thinking about Latin.

Yes, dammit! Where were the Catholic aliens?

Random notion: I wonder if word choice and phrasing in German of 2008 has in any way been influenced by the near ubiquity of modern English, in order to gain the broadest accessibility among speakers of the various German dialects. I mean, that's a lot of cognates in there, directly translating the English phrase it comes from.

But what do I know?

Although I do recall reading somewhere that some German organizations were thinking of changing internal policy, or had already changed their policy, such that certain communications and documents were to be in English, simply because everyone knew it, and because the results were always so much shorter than the equivalent German, thus taking less time to write and read, and using less paper, for greater efficiency and reduced costs.

But that above may be apocryphal. Oh, that wonderful source "somewhere".

Ideally it would choose different modes for different aliens: First Mode for insectoid life forms, Second for gaseous beings, etc.

Or, in Translator mode:

I want the translator that renders alien spe-e-e-e-e-ch
                    In alternating strophes and antistro-o-o-o-phes
And sings it to me in whatever mo-o-o-ode
                    It deems appropriate for the alien spe-e-e-e-cies.
First Mode is reserved for all insectoid li-i-i-i-fe
                    Second is used for aliens composed of ga-a-a-a-as

(etc)

Doesn't "quantum" just mean amount, though? Thus:

Quantum Infinitesimus Solacii, perhaps?

Although in checking "infinitesimal", I note that it is a relatively recent coinage from the Latin, like "science". Yet "infinitesimus" follows the Latin grammatical rules, does it not?

And would a Medical Universal Translator be speaking ex catheter?

"Catholic Universal Translator" is redundant; catholic means universal. So the protestant translators must be, arguably*, a less common subset.

* pun intended with malice aforethought.

With our satellite TV service, we've noticed that there are often three different channels, one each for Germany, Austria and Switzerland. Not only is the advertising different (keyed to local brands), but the dialogue is dubbed with the appropriate national accent.*

I don't think the phrasing has anything to do with English being the current lingua franca, I think it's just that the two languages ARE sufficiently similar so that it shows up in translations.

There are certainly lots of people who wish there was less English on signs etc., and I take their point. Lots of people have forgotten a lot of the English they learned in school (and I earn my living as an ESL teacher refreshing it for them), and it's a pain for them to decipher things in a foreign language in their own country. Some people get pretty militant about wanting to expunge anglicisms, but they're the minority.

Some companies with global connections are indeed making English their corporate (correspondence) language, much to the dismay of some of their employees. This has to do with global business, not with English being shorter or anything. Since I work for a firm specializing in corporate clients, this is a Good Thing for me.

*Weirdly, Arnold Schwarzenneger's film voice for German movies is dubbed by someone speaking Hochdeutsch. The first time I actually heard him speak German, with his Austrian accent, I was very bemused.

German language + English education + lots of English popular culture => greater use of English cognates and phrasing by young German speakers from all over Germany when wishing to communicate with young German speakers from all over Germany; that is, in preference to the phrasings of their own specific dialects.

However, that's just my random uninformed noodling.

I thought I would call it the Catholic Universal Translator for Everyone, just to be sure.

Or would that be overly cute?

German kids have adopted lol, thx, and so on. "Phat" was taken over as "fett", with the same meaning. But in addition they also have their own abbreviations for ICQ and other texting (HDGDL = hab' dich ganz doll lieb = I love you oodles, approximately; I've even seen that one penned on someone's arm cast.)

Well, OK, I was saying it. But only because it was funny.

Even if scientists had the exact mouse analog of Fragile X and PAK was blocked perfectly with nothing else screwed up, it would still be 10 years before any drug for humans could hit the market. But nothing that perfect ever happens in science, so it's more like 15 years. Before they can cure one syndrome that leads to some types of autism. But Newitz says "they can cure autism". Tacky as hell.

And the "inducing autism" is even more ridiculous: they made a mouse that acted kinda autistic because it was missing NLGN4 in the brain. How much human autism is from NLGN4 mutations? Will it ever be possible to manipulate NLGN4 levels in a child or adult to change their brain activity? Are there better things to manipulate on the NLGN4 pathway? Years, and years, and decades of research are still to come. Newitz's claims are utter BS.

I guess it raises interesting issues a la "if someday we will have the equivalent of 'steroids' for the mind what does that say about how we should treat the use of body steroids now?" But those issues already exist: taking some current drugs after studying makes memory work way better. Drugs affect the emotional composition of the mind today. There have been phamaceuticals to counter anxiety since the 50s; and alcohol, pot, coca leaves, etc since the dawn of humanity.

(Mind-bogglingly useful, too)

Bah.

Catholic Universal Thoroughly Infallible Telepathic Omnilingual Unquestionable Translator

Culling is sometimes necessary, especially if you want to make sure that a particular set of flowers breed with each other.

I have an idea in mind that I think I will need to read the genome project pages to accomplish. Mwahahaha.

Dido's Tattoo

Dido's Tattoo

Oooh! And it even shows up BLUE if you didn't screw it up!

OH, and the horses look about ready to charge.
And perhaps to trample someone.

Are they just horses qua horses, or are they particular and specific horses (the horses that pull Apollo's chariot, as a random classical example)?

dido, amazing ink! And quite an ordeal, I'm sure. Are you planning any additional coloration?

Myself, I would go for a Socratic Universal Translator, which converts everything into a pedagogical dialogue.
Or, better still, the Kai Lung Universal Translator.

-- k'Rkha v'Hhak iss tk'Cha!

(O most puissant and venerable captain, it is only with the most profound feelings of shame and no-pleasure that this unworthy and ill-jointed person informs you that, unless you remove your excellent and intricately crafted vessel from the purview of this unsanitary and malodorous planet, a decent respect for his illiterate and deformed superiors will compel the unhappy serf who now has the profound and undeserved honour to pour his discordant and ill-chosen words into your discriminating ear to open fire.)

Horsing around?

This being an SF place, that got me thinking about the Illustrated Man, and the tradition of tattoos that come to life. Is it my imagination or, a few years back, was there a TV ad that involved a bunch of mythical creatures going all over the place until, at the end of the ad, they came back home to someone's body where they nested as tattoos? I don't remember what the ad was for. Maybe it was for a videogame.

Wow. That is fabulous. I love the dynamic composition and the posing of the horses. You are one decorated classicist.

Neat photos, and a real bogglement at the realization that this guy makes his living from stock photos of fungi. Now that's specialization!

Oh, well, Catholic Universal Translator Utilizing Pataphysics

Owlmirror: Well...um...since you asked; it's the horses of Achilles after the death of Patroklos in book 17 of the Iliad. If you look closely at Balios (the one on the left) you can see he's crying. I know, I know. All my other tattoos are just as geeky.

Ajay @498: I LOVE the Kai Lung translator.

Now I know.

Back in the 70's, a friend remarked that the original version of "War and Peace" was a fraction the size of the English translation, as Russian was a "Me, Tarzan, you, Jane" language with specifics somehow folded into the words. I'm reminded of Niven's Moties who can describe a multi-story building, down to the color of its paint, in seven (?) words.

I've since wondered if she'd gotten an abridged version.

Comments? Examples?

Based on the six-minute montage of the album on their site, I'd say their undead quotient is very low. I don't know if it's actually live-in-the-studio, but it has that feel.

Russian does have a lot of density, but the written style isn't terse. And lots of things which we gloss, they detail. Take, for instance the naming of names, in the opening is crucial, as knowing those names means one can then read relationships between people from the ways in which the names are used; so in that in Russian the use of, Sergei Vasilivich means something different from Sergei, which is different from Ser'yozha.

A diligent translator might try to relate those differences, and so pad the book.

But other things will be shorter in English. All in all, I'd guess it's probably longer in Enlgish, but it ain't short in Russian.

I suppose I ought to get some Shakespeare in Russian, to see how it fares.

Is there something there I'm missing? Because it looks to be like the female character znqr n gbgnyyl hajneenagrq nffhzcgvba, fnvq fbzr anfgl guvatf, naq fgbyr n enaqbz thl'f ung.

Which is perhaps absurd to rot13, but there it is.

Re Boiled in Lead, I'm not familiar with the band (and Celtic music doesn't tend to be my cuppa, although any band that covers "Over, Under, Sideways, Down" is at least theoretically OK in my book), but I've noticed that in recent years the whole phenomenon of band-reuniting-after-years-inactive has transformed from being reliably awful to being almost, but not quite, reliably good. Throwing Muses, Wire, Mission of Burma, and a whole bunch of other bands I can't think of right now have recently put out new albums (and performed live shows) that were as good as, and sometimes better than, their classic-era stuff. Something in the air, maybe.

War and Peace is not exactly short in a full Russian version, either. I haven't read that much translation theory, but I believe that translations in general are thought to be usually longer, and not shorter, but I do not know specifically about Russian into English.

What could give somebody the "Me Tarzan, you Jane" impression [I must admit that I hadn't thought about it that way before] is, among other things, that (modern) Russian does not have an overt copula in the present tense - English "I am a student" is in Russian "Ya student" (I student). Phraseology is often different, for example, "I have a car" is literally "To me car", and the way to express "I need to..." might be said to be "For me necessary...". It is also possible to pack a lot of meaning into a single verb, as you have a lot of similar but distinct verbs due to the existence of verbal aspect (perfect/imperfect - most verbs have a "partner" of the other aspect), as well as frequent verb formation by prefixation and/or suffixation. For instance, the verb to describe an action may say quite a bit of the nature of the action / the way the action was conducted that Germanit languages often would use a whole phrase to convey.

Yours,
Per

For Germanit, read Germanic, of course.

Per

Q: How do Russian novelists commit suicide?
A: They leap from atop their manuscripts.

LOL!

Fluorescent Nightshade: 57.2, 0x0, 6, 9, 43.9, 0.4, 2.5, 1.4, 4.3, 90.0, 1.3, 4, 0.6, 0.4, 0.0, 0.1, 1.8, 0.1, 0.8, 0.9, 0x160016, 0xf0705, 12.4, 7.2, 11, 20, 0.8, 1.9

Bruce (StM), #508, 'sokay, it's one of the more unusual misspellings of my name. When I say my name to people on the phone, they frequently offer the common mishearings: Marilyn, Maureen, etc., but there are a few who always hear Nadine.

Debbie, #527, those are neat books! Er, food!

Steve@443: is that anything like the Adam West camp Batman period?

Serge@532: I know nothing of Firefly, but given Whedon's sense of humor he might be referring to the series of comic caper novels by Donald Westlake. Dortmunder is a very small-time crook who every now and then gets an idea for a major stunt, calls up his usual gang, and ends up making (effectively) minimum wage or less for his trouble (although we have fun watching the downfall of the truly unpleasant and occasional good fortune to the relatively innocent).

"Allergy to Human Seminal Fluid: Cross-Reactivity with Dog Dander," Maria Basagaña, Borja Bartolomé, Carlos Pastor, Ferran Torres, Rosario Alonso, Fernando Vivanco, and Anna Cisteró- Bahíma, Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology, vol. 121, no.
1, January 2008, pp. 233-9. (Thanks to Dan Heck for bringing this to our attention.) The authors, at Universitat Autònoma de Barcelona, Spain, and elsewhere, explain:

"Human seminal plasma (HSP) allergy is uncommon... We sought to assess the presence of IgE cross-reactivity among proteins from dog epithelium and HSP and to attempt to identify the allergens involved....

"Conclusions: IgE cross-reactivity among proteins from dog dander and human PSA is demonstrated."

(I am NOT going to... ah... insert any jokes about Rick Santorum)

T.Rex?

Jupiter-Venus conjunction

(The last time those planets lined up like that there was a really good sale.)

He had solved mysteries throughout the galaxy, but this would be his greatest adventure and most confounding puzzle - his own sexuality!

Neil 541: That does SOUND like it wrote itself, I must admit.

I stuck it in the freezer and forgot about it for nearly a month.

I defrosted and cooked up a couple of slices the other morning.

Man, oh, man, I am so glad I'm am omnivore.

I'm going to make this stuff last. A pig that good, you don't eat all at once.

An alien is on the run in America. To get his kicks, it kills anything that gets in its way, and uses the body as a new hiding place. This alien has a goal in life; power. Hotly pursued by another alien (who's borrowed the body of a dead FBI agent), lots of innocent people die in the chase.

It's as good as it sounds.

Serge #544: I added that to my Netflix queueueueue not so long ago, but the other day I removed it to make room for other things (damned 500 movie limit), thinking that it was my Agent Cooper love and nothing else making it seem like a good idea. Are you suggesting I should put it back in there?

Nonhuman amateur detectives include cats (e.g., Rita Mae Brown's Sneaky Pie Brown), dogs (e.g., Virginia Lanier's bloodhounds), vampires (e.g., Lee Killough's Garreth Mikaelian), and aliens from outer space (e.g., Mike Resnick's Whatdunits), but only one dinosaur: Eric Garcia's Vince Rubio.

Apart from confusion over what Dahlgren might refer to, the original Dahlgren guns worked. Railguns are still exotic and impractical.

Besides, giuven the tendency to name things for political reasons, who might one of these contraptions be named for, if it ever should enter service?

"I feel attracted to males, but until I mature from my larval stage, I won't know whether I'm gay or not - after all, I might just be female."

You're welcome. I got a couple of shots of the conjunction.

Jupiter and Venus

You certainly wouldn't want to name it after any Repbublican, since they have a rep for not being straight-shooters. Of course, if you're in a truly sardonic mood you could call it the Ginsburg Gun after Allen "Peter Bent It" Ginsburg.

Lee, #562, I don't think I ever read the sequel. Thanks for the tip, although I don't think I'll go looking for it now.

Clifton @ 340: I didn't have to look at all closely at the map or read any of the lettering to recognize the curves of those mountain ranges.

The Hospital(1971)... A harried hospital administrator copes with rising costs, a seductive young woman and a serial killer.

(Also, in the interests of full disclosure: I teach Latin for a living; oh how I wish I could go back and edit that comment, "criba"* indeed.)

*should be "scriba"--and many others. A distinctly inferior manuscript.

[whispers come in from the internet]

...Vegetable stew in 5 minutes (plus prep time) with very low probability of exploding--what an amazing product of the 21st century!

Now if only I had a deadline pressure cooker--next week's food would be done yesterday.

But wait!
There is more.
It's a pressure cooker and a time machine!

They decided to do it as a silent movie in the style of the 20s, and while it's not flawless, it's really fantastic. Lots of miniatures and stop motion and layering and trick photography, done really well, and it does a better job adapting the story for the screen than I would have thought possible.

It's got ground scenes from several places and a wiki (which I've not availed myself of). You can fast forward, set it up in redlight; so as to make it less damaging to night vision, have grids, names, outlines, etc.

I like it. It's freeware, and prety nifty.

That, btw, is a great photo of the conjunction. I wish it had been visible from here.

Sky culture: Western, Chinese, ancient Egyptian, Polynesian

It also seems one can get stereoscopic vision. I'm not sure what them mean, as the stars are so far away they all seem to be in a plane, but hey, maybe it's a tool, such as was done to find Pluto. Not a real search engine, but a way to practice.

Would you want to watch a movie where "...a vacationing scientist stumbles upon a Martian invasion..." if you didn't know that this is George Pal's War of the Worlds?

Hell yeah! I would be disappointed to find out that Bruce Campbell wasn't in it though.

I'd pay good money for that. If he were in it, he might get to again say "Klaatu Barada Nikto".

I'd like to second the recommendation of the Call of Cthulhu movie. As to the original story as well, a fellow SF fan here in the Oslo (Norway) area has joked that we should try to con the historical society into putting up a placque in the Old Town area in memory of second mate Gustaf Johansen...

The redundancy! The redundancy!*

-----
* The recursion! The recursion!

I went and read the talk page on the mediation request about the edit war going on re dsmvwllng.

sheesh! Forget that the page is slanted (there's a section on how it's a form of censorship, and the fellow who seems to have entered that is the guy who dislikes cory, and the example of censoring is the comment from B-B).

No, it's the way the comments about how to address the question (balancing the possibility that it might be mis-used, with a single sided assertion that it is nothing but part of a process of banning, meant to add insult to injury), end with a flounce which I can only describe by quoting Mythbuster Adam, "I reject your reality and substitute one of my own".

Because that's pretty much what he says.

I think I'm glad my hobby horses are things like terrorism, and will's are things like the electoral college. We can step away from them; hell we can even argue about them reasonably, because they aren't about us.

Ok, 'nuff said.

I meant, of course, torture, not terrorism.

Terry @586: You should read the archives of the _last_ edit war. This is nothing compared to when MrkYrk was in full swing.

TexAnne @558: Personally, as a southerner, I would only use "shite" as an adjective, although I'm aware the usage is somewhat different in the north. And I may be unusual as a southerner in using it at all.

Ethan @534: This may be considered a spoiler for the series, so I'll ROT13 it: Jra Fcrapre'f Hxvnu Bertba abiryf ner nobhg na nyvra qrgrpgvir. Not sure about any of the other aspects you mention, though, because I've yet to read any of them.

Ethan @532: I've noticed that in recent years the whole phenomenon of band-reuniting-after-years-inactive has transformed from being reliably awful to being almost, but not quite, reliably good. The Eagles? I haven't heard their latest album yet, but some of the stuff played in a radio interview with Don Henley I caught over christmas sounded good.

gahh!!!

I meant, of course, torture, not terrorism.

Either way, you need a nicer hobby! Knitting, maybe?

(*) To think I could instead have watched The Black Hole on TCM...

I don't have Safari on tap; can a Safari user please check and see if it works now?

No, that leads to The Terror.

*opinions of everybody else also welcome, of course

Two: Go back far enough (and that's not very far) and everyone has something we no longer like about them.

Three: His attempt to trick an opponent into killing himself with the story of the kite probably speaks more against him than the slaveholding (it being ubiquitous, and not looked down on, at the time).

Four: All in all, Ben Franklin is a swell guy to be named after.

I wasn't aware of the tricking-opponent story - I'd like to read that one, it sounds like a classic.

The slave-holding is a crucial issue for us, even though I agree that not every slave holder was necessarily a bad person, or every abolitionist a good one. But we'd like to choose a name that comes in on the side of the angels, specifically where civil rights are concerned, or one that predates the concept entirely (Charlemagne Dell has a nice ring to it).

So he sent them an account of the kite. One of three things was going to happen. It would get published.

It would get spiked.

The guy who didn't like him (who was an expert, of sorts; though not it seems, to Franklin's level) would try it, and get blasted to char.

It may have changed the course of events, because that paper made him a celebrity in France; were someone tried it (paying a sentry to fly the device. Said sentry was almost crisped).

That was why he was sent to Paris as the envoy of the Continental Congress.

But it's probable he sent the paper with malicious intent.

Lizzy L @614: If we name a kid Franklin Dell I don't think we'll be able to keep ourselves from calling him Franklin Delano from time to time, actually. Said theoretical kid might not be as amused as we would be. But yeah, we like Roosevelt, too. Ben Franklin has the advantage of having been a scientist and inventor, etc.

Or, oooh, Tesla Coil Dell! Your name-search is over!

In case anybody else wants to try it, the work in question was that well-known classic, Quo Vadis?. Not the one they made into a movie starring Peter Ustinov - although that might be interesting too - but the one they made into a movie starring Kurt Russell.

Io! Io! Alexus Invictus! Io! Io!

(OK, what's Latin for "WHOOHOO!!!!!!!!!"?)

Duhhh...

How about Tesla Doyle Dell?
(C'mon, Mary. You asked for it. Literally.)

ethan 621: Mwah-hah-hah.

It was never going to be possible to talk him out of a military career. I'd've tried, believe me.

And we're all hoping the war in Iraq will be over by then...or at least that we'll be out of it.

Before he gets the last, he'll make a nice pet lieutenant for some old sergeant.

And he and I can make you cringe as we discuss our relative expendability. :)

Be off with you!

Newton? Then, when he's young, you could call him Newt.

You would, by the way, be naming the lad after a cousin of mine.

I liked the reference, in the Jake Featherston as Hitler series[1] (alternate history US), in which some character mused that maybe their codes weren't such an ultra enigma after all. And all kinds of others--he loves dropping weird historical references/puns/jokes in his books, and I'm sure I miss 90% of them with my lame knowledge of history.

One talent I've noticed about Turtledove and SM Stirling is that they can do point of view descriptions from deeply unsympathetic characters in a convincing way. Both have managed to have me laughing at the wry internal comments of genuine Hitler-level villains(Featherston and Walker, even Hong with her "...and I've got mine!" line), with the cringe coming half a second later.

[1] This series ain't for the faint of heart. It's good, but nightmarish. Just imagine some large fraction of the ugliest parts of world history in the 20th century transplanted into the US.

I think Malcolm Reynolds (in that very funny Firefly episode) had it right: anyone who gets a statue in their honor was very likely some kind of SOB.

Ben Franklin strikes me as one of the less SOB-ish of them, relative to FDR or Winston Churchill or Abe Lincoln or Thomas Jefferson, say, but that may just be my ignorance or distance in time. Or maybe wielding a lot of power in hard times just requires a certain amount of SOB-ish-ness, and Franklin, with less power, had less such behavior required of him.

albatross@645: you've galvanized me into action -- there's a real potential for change here.

Ooh, here she is singing "Chariot" in the world's most stylish conestoga wagon!

I feel slightly guilty for starting all of these puns based on using eponymous electrical units as baby names. A friend of mine plays in an old-timey jug band, and was talking with his band mates about the immanent arrival of his daughter. The subject of names came up, and he said, "I'm leaning toward Lydia." The rest of the guys immediately struck up an impromptu chorus of "Lydia the Tattooed Lady." So Lydia was out. Which is a shame, because Lydia is a wonderful name, as is Franklin.

Franklin happens to be my father's middle name, and I'm rather fond of it, so I hope Mary Dell isn't put off from it.

(On the subject of electrical puns, when I was in music school many years ago, a classmate said to me, "I need to write a paper for my score-reading class. Can you name a good a conductor?" "Copper," I replied. "Never heard of him. What orchestra is he with?")

I find that Turtledove handles despicable characters better than Stirling (Stirling seems to have more sympathy for them, and to want the reader to identify more with them).

As I frequently say, "Power to the People!", no matter how much it hertz.

;-)

Alas, yes, I'm a-frayed.

Sorry..I have a hard time staying away from electrical puns. Ever since physics class in college and a certain family conversation, I've managed to keep current with the subject over the years. That -- and your magnetic personality -- lead me to feel strangely attracted to this thread.

No, Ijust didn't want anybody to get so sick of those puns that they'd throw me under a bus.

your magnetic personality

It thought it was abi who generated the software-messing field.

I'd swear there was one, but I can't find it. Did I hallucinate that? Somebody with good search-fu, help?

There's a certain resonance to your statement.

Franklin happens to be my father's middle name, and I'm rather fond of it, so I hope Mary Dell isn't put off from it.

Oh, no worries there. We are unfazed by puns.* We like the name Alexander but we know we couldn't stop ourselves from calling him Alexander Graham Dell. And we like the name Sam but we'd always be saying "What in the Sam Dell!?" and so forth. We also like Maximillian but it makes us start singing "Max Power, it's the name you love to touch..."

And since we won't be *having* a baby, but rather *getting* a baby, there's the whole "Dude, you're getting a Dell" thing.

Reverent, we ain't. Right now Franklin's in the lead, but I think we'll skip Tesla and Faraday. Kelvin or Darwin for a middle name would be fun - or both, opposing forces of entropy and evolution.

*punfazed. punshakeable. punstoppable.

Set fazers on pun!

albatross, #642, are you suggesting Einstein is an SOB? (sorry about that website, but they have the best pictures)

And what I came to post while I think about it:

That right-wing know-it-all Jonah Goldberg wrote an article in the 1/13 WashPost Outlook section about how Conservatism is falling down. I can't link it because it's more than 14 days back and we'd all have to pay for it (but I am making good progress on catching up with the paper). But there's a really funny bit of characterization and I'll type it in:

Fred Thompson ran a brilliant "testing the waters" campaign from his front porch, but when he tried to walk on the water, he sank like a basset hound trying to swim. Pushing the poor beast under the waves was Mike Huckabee, whose down-home folksiness makes Thompson look like David Niven.

Oh goodness.

Kelvin or Darwin for a middle name would be fun - or both, opposing forces of entropy and evolution.

franklin kelvin darwin dell? dangerously catchy. he'd have to have a really good sense of humour about it, with all the slant rhymes & especially the alliteration at the end....

(note: I'm used to hearing the curly d used in partial derivatives pronounced "dell")

The German dialect part is absolutely hilarious if you know what they're talking about, or for that matter if you understand enough to tell the difference in content between dialects.

Go. Play. React.

With apologies to Mr. Service (hey, it's an open forum)

Fragano: exhausted or not -- makes no differential to me. I'm not some random lug nut that's going to create sparks just for the fun of it.

*Miss Sakamoto, that is.

Maybe, "done in red ink", which contracts the length of the syllable (I think the "dr" sort of have a hidden vowel between them).

I'm going to win that one, though.

Just keep him away from the San Andreas Fault.

Mary Dell #671: "Dude you're getting a Dell" must have struck me at exactly the right moment, because I literally ell'd oh ell.

Serge #672: And the lulz keep on coming.

Marilee #674: I'll say this for Jonah Goldberg: when all he's doing is summarizing what everyone knows already, sometimes he's a halfway decent writer.

Fragano #681: Am I bad person? My first reaction on learning that (your link seems to be broken, by the way; BBC has coverage here) was "Ooh, maybe now David Lynch will make a biopic!"

Serge #694: I also cannot find it in French. But here's someone's still-image video of the lovely Italian version, "Ciao Ciao". And here's someone playing their 45 of her singing the Kinks' "A Well-Respected Man" en français. I would kill a large number of people to get my hands on that 45.

Hmm. Ginger... Does that mean we also get Algy and Biggles?

...and how did you know I'd run away from home to join the RAF? Only they don't let girls in. :-(

Yeah, the only problem with that scene was that it didn't happen four books earlier.

One of the creepiest things in that series, IMO, was watching the Confederate viewpoint characters adapting to fit the Freedom party's rule. Cvaxneq'f qrfprag sebz orvat n qrprag thl gb orvat n trahvar zbafgre, jvgu rnpu fgrc orvat nyzbfg haqrefgnaqnoyr, jnf cnegvphyneyl htyl. Cbggre freivat Srngurefgba nf ur qrfcvfrq uvz jnf nyzbfg nf jryy qenja.

Before that series, I hadn't read anything by Turtledove where he had a genuinely evil character as an important POV character, though Molotov and Liu Han come close in some sense. (Yvh Una'f n flzcngurgvp punenpgre nyy nebhaq, ohg gurer ner fprarf jurer fur'f qbyvat bhg "eribyhgvbanel whfgvpr", juvpu cerggl zhpu zrnaf lbh'er sbhaq thvygl naq rkrphgrq ba gur fcbg.) Ur unq crbcyr yvxr Wntre naq Yhqzvyyn jub erchqvngrq znal bs gur rivy vqrnf bs gurve fbpvrgvrf, ohg abg znal crbcyr jub jrer ernyyl gehr oryvriref va rivy.

Have you read _Conquistador_? Stirling's characterization of the overt bad guys isn't all that convincing to me (their not important POV characters), but his characterization of the "good guy" citizens of the Commonwealth is excellent, given that their values and mine (and surely Stirling's) are quite different.

I haven't been as convinced by his other bad guys. He drew some of the Draka very well in those books, and he did a really good job, IMO, with Walker and Isketerol in the Nantucket books, but his villains in the Dies the Fire world and the Pershawar Lancers just weren't as believable as characters, to me.

I did read Conquistador, and I agree with you. I found his villain's in the Nantucket novels just too sympathetically drawn.

That sounds like the setup for a Shakespeare play, kind of like Twelfth Night...

I can kind of get Walker, in that he looks reasonably sane in a hard, practical, "I do what's necessary" sort of way right up until you think through the implications of his policies; the fact that the rest of the Nantucketers invariably describe him as a power-mad loon helps me remember he's Not A Nice Guy.

Perhaps it's easier to see him as being sympathetic because he's always contrasted with Hong, who is literally psychotic. I still feel sorry for her, in the way one feels sorry for a rabid dog, but sympathetic she ain't (and unless I'm mistaken, she never gets to be a viewpoint character).

"Ginger @ 703... I'd run away from home to join the RAF? Only they don't let girls in"

That sounds like the setup for a Shakespeare play, kind of like Twelfth Night...

..he said, puckishly.

Now I exit, pursued by a bear.

BOUNCE: Why, good Halfmast, he is our navigator.
HALFMAST: Navigator, thou sayest? Faith, I'll warrant the course he'll steer will not be a straight one.
PRANK: It is a strange breed of aircraft, where the navigator can at the same time be a Rear Gunner.

That is funnier than you might realize. Now, for Serge:

BIGGLES: (enters, disguised as an ASS)"Are we all met?"

ALGY: Aye, and well-met. Here's a marvellous convenient place for our plot; we shall rehearse it ere the mission.

SMYTH: I believe we must leave the killing out, when all's done.

BIGGLES: Fear not; I have a device to make all well. Sayest thou not a-feared, else we'll fall short.

SMYTH: Nay, I am not feared of your device, only the ladies might tremble to think on us.

Surely Françoise can still put you back into this state? I mean, have you seen her sing "Tous les garçons et les filles" in an amusement park? Admittedly, she's not very happy there, especially compared to her blown-up-skirted friends, but that scopitone-video thing never fails to make me happy.

By contrast, Hong is genuniely evil. And Isketerol is a bad guy I can respect and rather sympathize with.

ajay @ 714... Ginger @ 715... Don't we need some Ghost somewhere in there? And maybe a bomber filled with Nazi zombies?

SCENE: A FOREST, PRIMEVAL. OUR HEROES LOOK UP AT THE DRONING SOUND OF A PLANE IN THE SKY

SCENE: INTERIOR OF PLANE

Nazi Zombies: sGEHIRRRRRRRNNNNNZZZZZZ (they fall from plane)