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      <title>Making Light :: Deep Value :: comments</title>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#comments </link>
      <description>Language, fraud, folly, truth, history, and knitting. Et cetera.</description>
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      <lastBuildDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:04:00 -0500</lastBuildDate>
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      <title>Deep Value</title>
      <description>There is a view that modern technology leads to ever more complexity, to increasingly elaborate and advanced products, and furthermore,...</description>
      <content:encoded>There is a view that modern technology leads to ever more complexity, to increasingly elaborate and advanced products, and furthermore,...</content:encoded>
      <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #1 from Susan</title>
         <description>comment from Susan on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still truly miss the last car I owned that I could self-maintain,<br />
though its emissions were dirty enough that it's probably just as well<br />
that it's gone. I have a reusable shopping bag which I am disgracefully<br />
bad about remembering to bring shopping. I am still working on<br />
converting all bulbs in my house to fluorescents, let alone LEDs. My<br />
only originally pedal-operated sewing machine (of the four I have in<br />
the house) has an electric motor add-on, but could probably be<br />
unconverted. I would also miss the zigzag stitch, though I already<br />
hand-sew my buttonholes. I suspect a fountain pen in my hands is an<br />
accident waiting to happen given the amount of ink I cover myself with<br />
just using ballpoints. And I'm not sure I'm clueful enough to run<br />
Linux, though I've been thinking about trying.</p>

<p>I do possess and use a hand-cranked flashlight!</p>

<p>When my current car dies I am thinking seriously of giving up car<br />
ownership and shifting to a combination of Zipcar (available through my<br />
day job) and rentals for my weekend trips. I live where I can walk to<br />
work, so on a daily basis I don't need a car, and a little planning<br />
efficiency could reduce my driving to once or twice a month on travel<br />
weekends and once a week for errands. It would be quite a wrench<br />
psychologically to give up the sense of freedom the car gives me,<br />
though. And I <i>love</i> driving.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:35 PM by Susan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258117</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:35:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #2 from Rymenhild</title>
         <description>comment from Rymenhild on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Books</b> written on parchment or pre-twentieth century paper<br />
last significantly longer than modern paperbacks written on pulp. I've<br />
handled eight-hundred-year old codices that, rebound and stored<br />
carefully, remain in far better condition than some novels I bought<br />
five years ago.</p>

<p>Then again, sheep died to make those manuscripts.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:39 PM by Rymenhild&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258118</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:39:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #3 from Evan</title>
         <description>comment from Evan on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"The future is here.  It's just not evenly distributed yet." - William Gibson</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:40 PM by Evan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258119</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:40:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #4 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Susan @1:</strong></p>

<p>We spent many years without a car, renting as required for big<br />
shopping trips or houseguests (it averaged about once a month) and<br />
taking the bus for everything else.</p>

<p>Thing is, once you have a car, you <em>use</em> it. It's actually<br />
taken some self-discipline to do the Saturday recycling + shopping run<br />
on my bike every week. It's not the travel time, which is roughly<br />
equivalent, nor the weather (it turns out I don't mind biking in snow<br />
and rain*). It's the time it takes to load the recycling onto my bike<br />
that bugs me. I think I need removable panniers.</p>

<p>Next year, when we have both kids in the same school—one I can<br />
shepherd them to en route to work—the car will become an occasional use<br />
item rather than a daily tool. But I don't think we'll get rid of it.</p>

<p>Shorter me: good luck going non-automotive; I know how hard it can be, but how rewarding as well.<br /><br />
-----<br /><br />
* yeah, I'm weirded out about that too</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:50 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:50:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #5 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The supermarkets I go to are now selling reusable bags, and will<br />
give a bag refund if you use your own (including those they sell).<br /><br />
Groceries are easier to carry in cloth and paper bags.</p>

<p>(I'd pay for a treadle sewing machine. I think you should be able to<br />
get a zig-zag attachment for them - my mother had one for her<br />
old-but-electric straight-stitch machine.)</p>

<p>Manual typewriters.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:57 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #6 from theophylact</title>
         <description>comment from theophylact on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pencils. All they need are decent caps to keep them from puncturing<br />
your pocket. (Mechanical pencils are okay, but finding replacement<br />
leads is a non-trivial exercise.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:57 PM by theophylact&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258122</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #7 from Lexica</title>
         <description>comment from Lexica on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susan --</p>

<p>My husband and I have been carfree since our car died last May.<br />
There was a bit of an adjustment period, but at this point we're both<br />
very, very happy about not having a car. (If I won one in a contest, my<br />
first question would be "um... can I get the cash-value equivalent<br />
instead? Because I really don't want the car, actually.")</p>

<p>I highly recommend getting rid of the car to anyone whose circumstances make it possible.</p>

<p>One thing to be aware of is that doing so seems to have a<br />
significant Red Pill effect that spreads to other things in one's life.<br />
At least, that's how it worked for us: You start by getting rid of the<br />
car, and you wind up examining all kinds of things about how you live.</p>

<p>I do my best to avoid being an obnoxious proselytizer for getting<br />
rid of the personal automobile, but if somebody mentions they're<br />
considering getting rid of theirs, I just can't resist jumping in to<br />
say "yes, it's great!"</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  3:57 PM by Lexica&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #8 from theophylact</title>
         <description>comment from theophylact on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, did you know that <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE7DA143FF931A15752C0A966958260" rel="nofollow">Thoreau </a> "developed for his family's business the finest lead pencil available in mid-19th-century America"? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:01 PM by theophylact&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258124</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:01:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #9 from theophylact</title>
         <description>comment from theophylact on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, did you know that <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE7DA143FF931A15752C0A966958260" rel="nofollow">Thoreau</a> "developed for his family's business the finest lead pencil available in mid-19th-century America"? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:02 PM by theophylact&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258125</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:02:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #10 from John Chu</title>
         <description>comment from John Chu on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#1: I overheard a conversation the captain of a Trader Joe's had<br />
with a customer. Apparently, the first phase is that you leave your<br />
reusable bag at home. The second phase is that you leave it in your<br />
car. The third phase is when the bag finally makes it into the store.</p>

<p>I have a hand-crank flashlight too. It's great. When there's a power<br />
failure, I know that my flashlight will work. It has its downsides, but<br />
I don't ever run into them. (e.g., A hand crank is probably a bad<br />
choice if you need steady, continuous light for hours.)</p>

<p>I haven't gone back to Linux yet, though. I really like handwriting<br />
recognition. If there were a viable Linux based solution, that would<br />
eliminate the only reason I have for using a Microsoft operating system.</p>

<p>As for sewing, I really need to learn how to do that. The extent of<br />
my sewing experience is to repair a few tears with needle and thread,<br />
using instructions I found on the web.</p>

<p>(I should also invest in a bicycle. Some places are just too close<br />
to drive to, but too time consuming to walk to. Currently, I walk<br />
anyway, but a bicycle would save time. I don't think there's always a<br />
place to park the bike though.)</p>

<p><br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:02 PM by John Chu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #11 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Lexica @7:</strong><br /><br />
<em>If I won one in a contest, my first question would be "um... can I<br />
get the cash-value equivalent instead? Because I really don't want the<br />
car, actually."</em></p>

<p>Right in the middle of our car-free time, we* actually <em>did</em> win a car.</p>

<p>Fuji Film put out a promotional film pack with a number of<br />
giveaways: disposable cameras, iMacs, and four people carriers. We<br />
bought it for the film, of course, but the ticket inside said we'd also<br />
won a car. And it was signed in ballpoint pen (you could feel it on the<br />
underside). That's what made it real for us, so real we had to sit down<br />
for a bit.</p>

<p>There was no cash alternative, so we took delivery and sold it<br />
immediately thereafter. The money paid for a drum kit, a digital<br />
camera†, a wooden floor in our house, and more maternity leave time for<br />
me after our son was born.</p>

<p>-----<br /><br />
* Technically, Martin won it<br /><br />
† irony: we stopped buying film</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:08 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #12 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Websites of note:</p>

<p>Worldchanging</p>

<p>http://www.worldchanging.com</p>

<p>James Cascio's Open the Future</p>

<p>http://www.openthefuture.com/</p>

<p>Kevin Kelly's Cool Tools</p>

<p>http://www.kk.org/cooltools/</p>

<p>* * *</p>

<p>I keep my reusable shopping bags in my car. I remember them maybe 2/3 of the time.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:11 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258128</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:11:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #13 from dulcinea47</title>
         <description>comment from dulcinea47 on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love and adore a good Alice's restaurant reference.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:20 PM by dulcinea47&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258129</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:20:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #14 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are buttonhole-making attachments that work with<br />
straight-stitch sewing machines. My Singer sewing instruction books<br />
refer to them, and if the ones I'm finding on eBay are the right kind,<br />
bidding starts at 99 cents.</p>

<p>I've got a treadle Singer, unconverted, and it does work, although I<br />
confess I use it as a table to hold my electric-powered Bernette 440.</p>

<p>I wish I could go carless, but in my current location it's just not<br />
practical. If I lived in the Boston area, I'd seriously consider it,<br />
what with the T and Zipcar and rentals.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:21 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:21:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #15 from pixelfish</title>
         <description>comment from pixelfish on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have often thought I'd like to have a Mooncup in case of apocalypse. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:24 PM by pixelfish&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258131</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:24:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #16 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, duh:</p>

<p>MAKE folks do cool stuff with both new and old technology.</p>

<p>http://makezine.com/</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:26 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258132</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:26:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #17 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>pixelfish @15:</strong><br /><br />
There is no requirement to wait for the apocalypse, or even a minor disaster.</p>

<p>Getting one and discovering you don't like it is a bit<br />
expensive—there isn't exactly a brisk secondhand market in them. But<br />
getting one and finding out that you love it and would never go back to<br />
anything else works out very cheap.</p>

<p>It's a gamble, sort of.  You have to ask yourself if you feel lucky.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:30 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #18 from Madeline F</title>
         <description>comment from Madeline F on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It offends me that so many modern things are built to be trashed in<br />
three years. I had a fine digital camera, it stopped turning on, there<br />
was no place to fix it, I opened it up and couldn't figure out how to<br />
fix it myself... Such a waste. I had an inkjet printer, it never worked<br />
well, it was worthless as soon as I took it out of the store... I had a<br />
microwave, it stopped producing microwaves. I had a MP3 player, it<br />
stopped turning on.</p>

<p>I wish companies were required to send out circuit diagrams and<br />
repair manuals with all of their electronics. I wish soldering and<br />
electrical repair were required classes in high school.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:30 PM by Madeline F&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #19 from Jen Roth</title>
         <description>comment from Jen Roth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heck, we have a perfectly good digital camera (only 2.1 megapixels,<br />
so not quite state of the art, but fully functional) that we may have<br />
to replace because the batteries don't seem to be made anymore. We can<br />
only take 3-4 pictures with the current battery before it fails. I<br />
bought one online, but it was old too (not used, but these things have<br />
a finite shelf life even unused), and we don't get much more life out<br />
of it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:34 PM by Jen Roth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #20 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Digital cameras are an interesting cleft stick.</p>

<p>On the one hand, the sensors on a digital camera go bad after a<br />
while. If enough of them do so, the camera isn't much use any more.<br />
And, as Madeline points out, you can't repair it, nor bring it to<br />
someone local who can do so.</p>

<p>But it's harder and harder to get black and white film, even 35mm<br />
film, without going mail-order. And home darkroom work on color film is<br />
space, equipment and chemical intensive, even more than black and white.</p>

<p>Good thing this is just an ideal, not an ideology we're discussing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:38 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:38:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #21 from Stefan Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Stefan Jones on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just this morning, I found in a "take me, we're moving" pile a nice<br />
SLR camera with filters, cleaning stuff, a remote plunger and two<br />
flashes.</p>

<p>A film camera. </p>

<p>Dust in the wind.</p>

<p>I'm going to bring it to Goodwill at lunch.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:39 PM by Stefan Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:39:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #22 from MamaDeb</title>
         <description>comment from MamaDeb on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Amish have done a lot of adaptations of modern technology to fit<br />
their needs. One of those is taking modern sewing machines - at least<br />
basic models that aren't computer-driven - and fitting them for treadle<br />
or airpower. I would assume those machines do zigzag.</p>

<p>In fact, it's possible to order such a machine, complete with zigzag and buttonhole, <a>here</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:42 PM by MamaDeb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:42:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #23 from Keith</title>
         <description>comment from Keith on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rymenhild @2: <i>Then again, sheep died to make those manuscripts.</i></p>

<p>Yes but the sheep also fed and clothed the scribe who made the<br />
manuscript. An animal that can produce food, clothing, tools and<br />
publishing materials is so useful, you'd think it came form some<br />
genetically engineering laboratory in the future, rather than from a<br />
damp field full of mud in the past.</p>

<p>One of the fascinating aspects of the past is just how much<br />
ingenuity our ancestors had when all they had at hand were a few rocks,<br />
twigs and livestock.</p>

<p>And we wonder that some stone age McGyver was worshiped as a God.<br />
How many of us could figure out, without ever having seen it done<br />
before, how to make fire out of couple of twigs, a flat rock and the<br />
power of our own lungs?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:43 PM by Keith&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #24 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've never had a driver's license, and own no car. Fortunately I now<br />
walk to work. I also walk to the grocery store and take my huge<br />
backpack; I have canvas totes too, but I nearly always forget them.</p>

<p>On the downside, if I have too much stuff to carry home, I have it delivered--and that's done in a bigass van thing.  </p>

<p>I have the miniature version of the hand-cranked flashlight, which<br />
is kind of the "jerkoff" flashlight (from the motion used to charge it<br />
up).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:47 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:47:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #25 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Xopher @24:</strong><br /><br />
<em>"jerkoff" flashlight (from the motion used to charge it up)</em></p>

<p>You remind me that I have a pocket calculator that you shake in much the same way to charge up.</p>

<p>I bought it because the packaging told me that it worked without<br />
electricity (though it doesn't look much like an abacus to me) and<br />
without light (I presume it does, but I can't see the results).</p>

<p>How could I resist?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:53 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #26 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>MamaDeb @22:</strong><br /><br />
Your link is munged, and I can't retrieve it. Can you put the URL in<br />
plain text, or make sure you use quotes around it if you use the &lt;a<br />
href=... formatting?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:54 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:54:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #27 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My mother's hand-cranked Singer sewing machine lasted her about<br />
thirty years (she bought it when I was a small child in the late 50s,<br />
and it travelled from England to Jamaica in the late 60s; it stayed in<br />
Jamaica when she left for good at the end of the 80s).</p>

<p>Some technologies may last even longer, of course. When we lived in<br />
rural Jamaica we cooked using a wood-burning stove rejoicing in the<br />
name 'Caledonia Modern Dover' dating to around 1900 (possibly older)<br />
that was still functional in the 1970s (I certainly had the blisters to<br />
prove it). For all I know, it may be working yet.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:58 PM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:58:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #28 from Avram</title>
         <description>comment from Avram on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven't made the leap over to Linux, but I have switched from word<br />
processor to text editor, so just about everything I write is in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_proofing" rel="nofollow">future-proof</a> ASCII. </p>

<p>And then there's <a href="http://www.43folders.com/2005/10/24/paul-ford-distractions" rel="nofollow">"Amish computing"</a> and <a href="http://www.rohdesign.com/weblog/archives/001832.html" rel="nofollow">the back-to-paper movement</a>. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  4:59 PM by Avram&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 16:59:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #29 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've had the same cheap Black&amp;Decker electric drill since<br />
January 1986. It was a parting gift from my co-workers when I left<br />
Québec. That thing has seen a <i>lot</i> of use.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:02 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #30 from C. Wingate</title>
         <description>comment from C. Wingate on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Car maintenance is perhaps a bad example. We have a 1997 Saturn that<br />
has 112,000 miles on it, and get 30 MPG even when it's way out of tune.<br />
I figure it's good for another 50-100 thousand miles. My old Fiats and<br />
the like were a lot easier to work on (and in some cases possible to<br />
work on), but the flip side is that they had to be worked on. I<br />
remember distinctly the point at which I stopped working on cars. It<br />
was a Ford Escort that I had inherited from my father (he had won it in<br />
a contest), and it needed its timing belt changed. Rubber timing belt<br />
is routine maintenance, right? (You changed it religiously at 70,000<br />
miles on the Fiat 131 engine, or you ended up with a valve stuck<br />
edge-on in a piston.) Well. I didn't have a garage, and of course it<br />
was 45 degrees (always is when you need to really sink yourself in the<br />
engine). And here we are, trying to figure out how to get at this<br />
thing, and we finally figured out that we had to put a jack under the<br />
engine, and loose one of the motor mounts, and lower the engine a few<br />
inches. And after all that I swore I would never work on my own car,<br />
ever again.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:02 PM by C. Wingate&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #31 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Fragano 27:</strong><br /><br />
Thank you for the reminder of stoves; another good example of simple, flexible technology is the <a href="http://www.coleman.com/coleman/colemancom/detail.asp?product_id=425G499&amp;categoryid=2020" rel="nofollow">Coleman stove</a>.  My parents have used the same one at the cabin for over 35 years; it sits there still.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:04 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #32 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Avram @28:</strong><br /><br />
The back-to-paper movement?  It's a <em>movement</em> now?  In harmony, one hopes, and singing loud.</p>

<p>It's why I became a bookbinder. I realised I was done with my Palm V<br />
and wanted no new gadget in its place. I just wanted really beautiful<br />
blank books, nicer than I could afford any other way.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:11 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #33 from Magenta Griffith</title>
         <description>comment from Magenta Griffith on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still use dial phones bought at garage sales long ago. I have a<br />
couple of extras, because they do fail eventually. Western Electric<br />
built good stuff, because way back then, you rented your phone from Ma<br />
Bell, so she didn't want it to fail. I also have an old touch tone<br />
phone for those times you can't access service without one.</p>

<p>And I *like* dial phones. It's how I think of using a phone, and the sound quality is great. I also prefer watches with dials.</p>

<p>I've been trying to use shopping bags for a long time. The local<br />
food co-ops used to pretty much require it, also your own jars and<br />
such. Now they have bags available, but give you a nickel back if<br />
you've brought one. </p>

<p>There was a time in my life I used flannel pads. Cups never worked<br />
for me; gave me cramps. I bought enough pads to get through my period.<br />
When it was over, they were tossed in the wash in cold water with a<br />
long soak. Now that I don't need them, I don't know what to do with<br />
them. But they gave several years of excellent use, much softer and<br />
more comfortable than disposable.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:11 PM by Magenta Griffith&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #34 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Random thoughts on sustainability and technology.</p>

<p>---My uncle has a lovely singing voice. About 25 years ago he gave<br />
us recordings....on 8-tracks. Unfortunately, that was the only format<br />
he recorded. Which leads us to Unfortunately #2: a couple of years ago<br />
someone in the family wanted to convert the recordings to some other<br />
format (ah, but how durable??), but it appears that all of us have<br />
gotten rid of all of our 8-tracks.</p>

<p>---when spinning wheels were first introduced, they were often<br />
vilified as potential job killers. Interesting how perspectives on the<br />
advantages of technology can develop.</p>

<p>---I wonder about tasks that are <em>apparently</em> efficient. Take<br />
cooking. In my experience it really doesn't take that much time to cook<br />
'real' stuff, as opposed to buying things prepackaged and/or<br />
microwavable. Not to mention that my food processor's parts aren't<br />
dishwasher safe; it's less hassle to use other more 'primitive' tools.</p>

<p>---Jen Roth @19, we had the same thing happen to our telephone. We<br />
replaced the phone a few weeks ago before the battery gave up entirely.</p>

<p>---on the other hand, some appliances like washers and dryers have<br />
gotten very energy-efficient. I'll be sad to see my 20-year-old washer<br />
go, but will feel better about saving power and water with a new one.</p>

<p>---My 1910 edition of The Harvard Classics is in fine shape. My<br />
'70's paperbacks (Science Fiction Hall of Fame, waaaah!) are crumbling.</p>

<p>--- re: the Amish. I recently linked to an article describing some of their innovations. Here it is <a href="http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/14599/" rel="nofollow">again</a>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:13 PM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #35 from Susan</title>
         <description>comment from Susan on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My sewing machines are long-lived - the two I use most often<br />
(fraternal twin Singers) are both 40 years old and have never needed<br />
any repair other than a single gear under the bobbin case that seems to<br />
be a chronic weak point on that model. That's about a $30 repair every<br />
couple of years. My serger, which I rarely use and which really ought<br />
to be a candidate for disposal, is about 15 years old. My converted<br />
machine, which I almost never use, is a 1920s model of some sort, and<br />
works just fine provided I only want to do straight stitch. I consider<br />
it a backup in case I manage to munch the gears on both my main ones,<br />
as has happened occasionally, always at the most inconvenient possible<br />
moment relative to some costume deadline.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:16 PM by Susan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #36 from Another Damned Medievalist</title>
         <description>comment from Another Damned Medievalist on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Diva cups -- better than moon cups in that they have no latex! I<br />
think they are not used so much in the US, though. US undergrads seem<br />
to be very squeamish about some things, and not at all about things<br />
that squick me no end.</p>

<p>I think most of those things are really obvious -- I started with<br />
the bags when I lived in Europe, and have lots of lower-tech stuff. But<br />
for a lot of people here in the US, non-car transport is difficult.<br />
There are lots of spots between my home and work, for example, where<br />
there is no pavement and the cars do not look out for bikers and<br />
walkers.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:17 PM by Another Damned Medievalist&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258152</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #37 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On older books: My 1923 copy of <i>Government of the West Indies</i><br />
is still in excellent condition for what is, after all, a Wrong book.*<br />
Quite a few of my 60s and 70s paperbacks are, shall we say, very<br />
fragile.</p>

<p>*I treat it gently, on the other hand I have marked up my first American edition of Froude's <i>Bow of Ulysses</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:20 PM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #38 from Adrian</title>
         <description>comment from Adrian on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The use of disposable things, or short-lived things, can have its<br />
own complicated ecology. Maybe ecology isn't quite the right word. I<br />
mean a network of processes that depend on each other. I usually have a<br />
reusable (as in luggage) bag with me when I shop. When I need paper or<br />
plastic bags, I get one from the store, and put it inside my reusable<br />
bag, to take it home. Why? Because if a person wants to recycle paper,<br />
the local recyclers require it to be packaged in paper bags and taken<br />
to one of their drop boxes, conveniently located every 1/4 mile or so.<br />
(There's an exception for newspapers, which I don't read on paper at<br />
home.) I use plastic grocery bags for trash. I've seen plastic trash<br />
bags made for the purpose, but they're much thicker plastic, so if the<br />
idea is to minimize use of plastic it doesn't seem like a good use of<br />
money.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:21 PM by Adrian&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #39 from Emily</title>
         <description>comment from Emily on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I overheard a conversation the captain of a Trader Joe's had with<br />
a customer. Apparently, the first phase is that you leave your reusable<br />
bag at home. The second phase is that you leave it in your car. The<br />
third phase is when the bag finally makes it into the store.</i></p>

<p>If you're walking, you'll make the mistake of forgetting your bag<br />
once or twice, tops. And if you're walking and you forget your bag the<br />
second time, odds are good that you'll buy a second bag rather than<br />
endure another walk with plastic ones.</p>

<p>Cars are very good at enabling some kinds of wasteful behavior.</p>

<p>Giving up the car was a lot easier than I thought. It started when<br />
my partner and I figured out that we could do all (and I do mean *all*)<br />
our grocery shopping on foot. Then he realized he could take the bus to<br />
work and save himself an annoying drive every day. 18 months later, we<br />
moved and decided to get rid of the car as it hadn't been used *once*<br />
in that time.</p>

<p>We now use bikes for quite a lot - we each picked up one when we<br />
moved. Mine is scheduled to be replaced, since I'm better at handling<br />
cargo than it is! I know it's possible to get a bike that works better<br />
than I do, so I'm comparison shopping for the replacement.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:22 PM by Emily&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #40 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pixelfish #15: you don't need an apocalypse to appreciate a mooncup!<br />
I use the Diva cup (silicone, not latex) and I couldn't be happier with<br />
it. It's comfortable, it can be worn all day with no leakage and no<br />
changing, and you never have to worry if you've run out of menstrual<br />
supplies. I've had mine for several YEARS now and it's more than paid<br />
for itself in the supplies I haven't had to buy. Also, I think it was<br />
the only thing that made having my period <em>at Warped Tour</em> a<br />
manageable situation. I would not have wanted to deal with disposables<br />
and Porta-potties -- something I could leave in and ignore until I got<br />
to better facilities was ideal.</p>

<p>I've also used the Keeper (latex, while serviceable, can kinda smell<br />
funny after a while) and the disposable Instead cups. Disposable<br />
doesn't address the environmental or deep-value concerns, but there are<br />
certain situations where the design of the Instead (it's like a<br />
diaphragm, the Keeper and Diva sit lower down) makes it the optimal<br />
choice.</p>

<p>Mooncups RULE.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:25 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #41 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Another Damned Medievalist @36:</strong><br /><br />
Several of the cup anecdotes were American; that was when I found out<br />
that they weren't simply a British phenomenon. I suspect many women of<br />
my daughter's generation (she's currently 4) will use them as a default.</p>

<p>I confess, on the biking, that I have an obscenely, viciously unfair advantage.  I live in the Netherlands.</p>

<p>When I show American bikers around, it takes me several hours to get them to relax and <em>believe</em><br />
that the cars are really going to give them the space that they need on<br />
those few stretches of road that don't have a bike lane.</p>

<p>I've only been here eight months, and it still blows my mind.  Dutch people don't even see how fantastic it is.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:27 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #42 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Susan</b> @ 35... <i>My serger, which I rarely use and which really ought to be a candidate for disposal</i></p>

<p>I gave you the best years of my life and this is what I get.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:29 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #43 from Chris Quinones</title>
         <description>comment from Chris Quinones on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've only taken a cursory look at the thread so far (I should have<br />
left work by now), so I apologize if anyone's already posted this, but<br />
the Group News Blog <a href="http://www.groupnewsblog.net/2008/01/real-deal.html" rel="nofollow">has this post about "The Real Deal"</a> a couple of months ago that touches on just this topic.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:35 PM by Chris Quinones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:35:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #44 from Chris Quinones</title>
         <description>comment from Chris Quinones on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've only taken a cursory look at the thread so far (I should have<br />
left work by now), so I apologize if anyone's already posted this, but<br />
the Group News Blog <a href="http://www.groupnewsblog.net/2008/01/real-deal.html" rel="nofollow">has this post about "The Real Deal"</a> a couple of months ago that touches on just this topic.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:35 PM by Chris Quinones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258160</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #45 from Chris Quinones</title>
         <description>comment from Chris Quinones on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rats! Double posts do not have deep value!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:37 PM by Chris Quinones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258161</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:37:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #46 from Dena Shunra</title>
         <description>comment from Dena Shunra on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am surely not the only Making Light reader who has a conflict of<br />
values pertaining to reading choices. Too many things in new-book<br />
stores are book-shaped objects, printed on very real paper. Ick! So I<br />
end up reading and enjoying books from second hand shops and libraries.<br />
That is very economical with the book-making energy, but tends to give<br />
the book-makers (authors, editors, designers, publishers, etc.) short<br />
shrift. </p>

<p>I'm hoping that an economic model will turn up that will make it<br />
possible to pay the makers regardless of the distribution chain I<br />
choose. And while distribution is important, I have no love for<br />
particular distribution chains and no wish to support them; I wish<br />
there were some reasonable way of rewarding/repaying authors and<br />
publishers for their work even when I choose a different distribution<br />
channel. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:37 PM by Dena Shunra&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258162</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #47 from ethan</title>
         <description>comment from ethan on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Debbie #34, on dishwashers: My parents recently got a new one,<br />
despite my father's skepticism, but he tried handwashing a medium-full<br />
sinkload of dishes and measured how much water he used, versus how much<br />
the dishwasher would have, and apparently the dishwasher won out by<br />
quite a bit. It startled the hell out of him, and me, and won him over<br />
to the dishwasher side of things. Sadly, I don't have a functioning<br />
dishwasher, and judging from the <em>two years</em> I've spent trying to get my landlord to do something about it, I might never.</p>

<p>On mooncups or diva cups or whatever: most of my ladyfriends have<br />
switched over to them over the past few years, and unanimously report<br />
satisfaction. They seem a dramatic improvement.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:41 PM by ethan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258163</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:41:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #48 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abi @ 41: you may be optimistic about your daughter's generation using mooncups as a default.</p>

<p>My daughter is 12, and although she was eager to try one, she can't<br />
wear it comfortably right now. I advised her to hang onto it and try<br />
again later.</p>

<p>I'm sure she can figure out the likely preconditions for "later," as I've also given her <em>Our Bodies, Ourselves</em>, but if I brought it up directly I'd just hear "Mo-om, you're embarrassing me!"</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:42 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258164</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:42:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #49 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Going meta for a moment, I'd say that -skills- are very much one of<br />
the deep value items. I'm always surprised to find people don't all<br />
have some rough idea of how to weave, or make paper (or ink), or<br />
sew[0], or butcher, (more recent) how electricity works, even in<br />
general terms, or all sorts of remarkably basic ideas that underly<br />
modern technology. </p>

<p>"The magic just happens" is a spectacular form of ignorance.</p>

<p>[0] Sewing... I'm beginning to think that (at 5 sewing machines (one<br />
treadle, one hand-crank, one convertable power/handcrank, and one<br />
powered) and a serger) I might have a problem... (but I've sewn with<br />
all but the most recent of them - and that because the most recent was<br />
found lonely on the curb yesterday, and needs a belt)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:44 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258165</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:44:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #50 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Rikibeth @48:</strong><br /><br />
Perhaps, if cups gather momentum, they will come in more sizes.  Have you fed back to either company?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:46 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258166</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:46:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #51 from Nick Kiddle</title>
         <description>comment from Nick Kiddle on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Thing is, once you have a car, you use it.</i></p>

<p>This is why I resist every suggestion that my life would be easier<br />
with a car (and given the sad state of public transport in small-town<br />
Lincolnshire maybe it would). I enjoy travelling by train, meeting<br />
interesting people and getting to know new stations along the way. But<br />
if I was running a car, I wouldn't be able to justify train journeys<br />
and I'd miss them.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:51 PM by Nick Kiddle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258167</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:51:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #52 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abi 50: no, I haven't yet. I probably ought to. I wonder just how<br />
small they could make the things, though, before they started losing<br />
their advantages? I suspect that one made the size of a slender/junior<br />
tampon wouldn't be very effective.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:52 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258168</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:52:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #53 from Calluna V.</title>
         <description>comment from Calluna V. on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first "Our Bodies, Ourselves" contained instructions for using a<br />
diaphragm as a menstrual cup, which was my first introduction to the<br />
concept, but which indicates it's been around for a while. Even though<br />
I turned out to be incompatible with them, I love the idea and always<br />
beam with pleasure when I see a new brand name on the market. </p>

<p>As for variations, the Keeper had a 'no child has passed through<br />
this cervix' style and an 'at least one child has passed through this<br />
cervix' size/shape. (I forget how they phrased it, but that was the<br />
gist.) I *think* the Diva cup does too. For more variation yet, one can<br />
return to the diaphragm which (as I understand it) is individually<br />
fitted. More expensive, but it's not like one needs dozens of them.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:55 PM by Calluna V.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258169</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:55:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #54 from Dena Shunra</title>
         <description>comment from Dena Shunra on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Xeger @49 - I second that.</p>

<p>Moreover, skills are fun (well, probably not the butchering): make<br />
tofu from beans &amp; sea water... you may have to fight off the<br />
paparazzi. Or knitting, spinning, crochet, and cooking. Etc. </p>

<p>I've found that not only is cooking fun, it helps keep out<br />
ingredients I'd rather avoid. (I've been known to make muffins,<br />
pancakes, and cakes without any of the following: eggs, wheat flour,<br />
oil, sugar, and milk. Good muffins and pancakes. Ingredient-free<br />
cooking - whee!) But I still find it surprising that cooking is<br />
something that counts as a skill, like all those other ones. I mean,<br />
how do people eat without cooking? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  5:57 PM by Dena Shunra&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258170</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 17:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #55 from Julie L.</title>
         <description>comment from Julie L. on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instead cups aren't compatible with an IUD-- which is in itself a<br />
Deep Value contraceptive, not requiring daily pills or other small<br />
disposable objects.</p>

<p>(TMI warning for guys who would just as rather not engage with this sort of gynecology)</p>

<p>I've bought and tried all three types of reusable cups. So far, the<br />
Keeper has lasted the longest; this may be an unfair judgement in that<br />
I lost my Divacup within a few months of purchase, although I was not<br />
unhappy to do so-- I had a lot more trouble wrangling it into place,<br />
because of the shorter stem and slightly larger size (the cupmakers'<br />
size recommendation is partially based on age, but this didn't seem to<br />
work for me).</p>

<p>My Mooncup eventually developed some small holes/fissures in its<br />
main body, which may be attributable to a brief but intense interval<br />
when our two then-kittens decided that it was the Best Toy Ever; more<br />
than once, after I'd pitched it into the bathroom sink before settling<br />
down for a good read, I'd looked back up to discover that the Mooncup<br />
had disappeared somewhere in the direction of an ominous set of little<br />
red pawprints. It bounced real good.</p>

<p>I *have* had leaks with the cups due to overflow, even past a backup<br />
flannel pad. But they've still served me better than even the largest<br />
pre-toxic-shock tampons, which IIRC were once described by a comedian<br />
who said that every time she jumped into the pool with one, the water<br />
level went down.</p>

<p>And finally, there is the fabulous site http://mum.org/ , the online Museum of Menstruation.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:06 PM by Julie L.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258171</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:06:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #56 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Keeper and Diva Cup both swear that if you've had a child, you<br />
NEED NEED NEED their larger size to prevent leakage. The Diva Cup even<br />
says you need the larger size if you're over 30, child or no child,<br />
because of natural loss of muscle tone.</p>

<p>I'm here to tell you they're WRONG.</p>

<p>I'm over 30, I have a child, and the larger size was frickin' unwieldy.  The smaller size is comfortable and leak-free.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:12 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258172</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:12:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #57 from Bronwyn</title>
         <description>comment from Bronwyn on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got to play with an old treadle Singer sewing machine when my dad<br />
was fixing it for my aunt. (Inherited from her mother or grandmother.)<br />
Once you get in the rhythm with the treadle, it goes at an impressively<br />
fast clip! It had a box full of attachments that let it do dozens and<br />
dozens of kinds of frills and furbelows. I don't remember if there was<br />
a buttonhole attachment but I would be surprised if there was not. </p>

<p>One of our fundamental problems right now is that we have lots of<br />
ways to put materials together, and very few ways to take them apart<br />
again for reuse. If we can figure out how to make something that does<br />
*that* the green revolution will become immensely easier and more<br />
popular. Plastics, metals, and so on do certain jobs that natural<br />
materials just can't, so people are not going to give them up.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:15 PM by Bronwyn&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258173</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #58 from R. Emrys</title>
         <description>comment from R. Emrys on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those forgetting their shopping bags at home, a recommendation.  I use one of <a href="http://www.reusablebags.com/store/chicobag-colorful-compact-reusable-shopping-p-450.html" rel="nofollow">these</a><br />
that I picked up at a co-op. It folds up wallet-sized and fits in my<br />
purse, so I don't forget it (unlike the five string bags and the big<br />
canvas bag that lives in my back seat). If I didn't have a purse, it<br />
would snap around my belt loop. Since I got it, my disposable bag<br />
consumption is down to what I need for my recycling and my lunch.</p>

<p>On sewing machines: I have an electric sewing machine that's a<br />
couple generations old (human generations, not tech generations) and<br />
much sturdier than the modern ones. I love it, but if I didn't have<br />
electricity I think I'd just go back to needle and thread. Whereas I<br />
would probably have to <i>invent</i> a treadle-powered word processor rather than go back to either manual typewriter or pen &amp; paper.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:25 PM by R. Emrys&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258174</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:25:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #59 from Bruce Baugh</title>
         <description>comment from Bruce Baugh on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is only a placeholder for what I hope will be longer comments tonight or tomorrow.</p>

<p>I am troubled by how much deep value apparently depends on labor <i>I can't add</i>.<br />
There are presumptions going on about what kinds of disabilities and<br />
limitations apparently don't exist in people who'd like to be good<br />
stewards of their chunk of the world's resources. There's lots I would<br />
do, both physically and mentally, if I could, but it simply isn't going<br />
to happen. It wouldn't happen even if I sacrificed all of my chosen<br />
work and entertainment, in some cases, thanks to learning disabilities<br />
rising from nerve damage.</p>

<p>Some of this, to be sure, is spillover frustration at healthy young<br />
(generally male) bloggers who've done yeoman work analyzing the<br />
screwing over that the working and middle classes have gotten and then<br />
turn right around to enthuse about hiking the price of food and<br />
transportation, knowing damn well that nothing like sufficient aid to<br />
the needy will be forthcoming. And those who have even more trouble<br />
holding onto gainful employment or finding healthy food will...what?<br />
Blow away? Hire themselves out to each other laborers?</p>

<p>It's not that I disapprove of making things both lasting and<br />
repairable. It's that I get leery of too much endorsement of solutions<br />
calling for more physical labor and mental training without a good<br />
sense of what kinds of burden that can be, nor any real sense of what<br />
to do about it.</p>

<p>More later, though; this is not (in my intention) a completed thought.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:27 PM by Bruce Baugh&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #60 from dana</title>
         <description>comment from dana on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't use a cup, as it is incompatible with the IUD I currently<br />
have in place, but I do like my cloth pads and sea-sponge tampons<br />
vastly better than their disposable alternatives. Right now, I can just<br />
toss the pads in with my son's cloth diapers, which is very convenient.<br />
Cloth diapers also seem to be making a comeback, and while we don't use<br />
them exclusively, I now look at a disposable diaper and think "I'm<br />
throwing out this big hunk of plastic and chemicals to take care of a<br />
little bit of baby pee that would just wash out?" I guess that's more<br />
of a "sustainability" rather than "deep value" argument, but they're<br />
related.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:28 PM by dana&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258176</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #61 from John Houghton</title>
         <description>comment from John Houghton on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>abi @41:</strong><br /><br />
In 1990, before and after ConFiction, I spent some time bicycling in<br />
the Netherlands (and Denmark) (including a circumnavigation of the<br />
Ijsselmeer). One of the problems I had, as an American cyclist was that<br />
I was too cautious for the Dutch drivers, I'd slow and check at an<br />
intersection. They were expecting me to fly right through. It didn't<br />
help that I was extra wary since the bike trip was financed by the<br />
settlement from having my collarbone broken when me and my bike were<br />
hit by a car making a turn across traffic (Mass Ave, Arlington, MA).<br /><br />
I wanted a sign saying "Let Op! Amerikaanse Fietser".<br /><br />
Not only was there a bike path from the airport, it went in a separate tunnel from the auto traffic.<br /><br />
At one point on my long ride, a drawbridge started to go up in front of<br />
me. The bridgekeeper saw me and gave me priority over the bridge (I<br />
assume that he didn't actually have to slow the cargo ship down).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:49 PM by John Houghton&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258177</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:49:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #62 from pixelfish</title>
         <description>comment from pixelfish on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rikibeth: Thanks for the heads up about the larger/smaller size<br />
issue. I currently am on the Ring, which I adore, and I assume that<br />
inserting a cup will be no more strenuous than inserting the Ring? </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:56 PM by pixelfish&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258178</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:56:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #63 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm posting this before reading past #20 -</p>

<p><em>Abi: I prefer a sewing machine that zig-zags, so that I can make buttonholes. </em></p>

<p><em>and</em></p>

<p><em>#5 ::: P J Evans :::  </em></p>

<p><em>...(I'd pay for a treadle sewing machine. I think you should be<br />
able to get a zig-zag attachment for them - my mother had one for her<br />
old-but-electric straight-stitch machine.)</em></p>

<p><em>and</em></p>

<p><em>#14 ::: Rikibeth ::: <br /><br />
There are buttonhole-making attachments that work with straight-stitch sewing machines.</em><br /><br />
I use a treadle sewing machine with a late-50's head that can do not<br />
only zig-zag, buttonholes, double-needle, but a wide variety of other<br />
built-in stitches and also takes cams for bigger/more elaborate<br />
patterns. I own two of those heads, both of which came from Canada. The<br />
second treadle cabinet I got from a <a href="http://www.lehmans.com/" rel="nofollow">company</a> whose main business is catering to the Amish. </p>

<p>There are two versions of the clamp-on buttonholer, one for<br />
straight-stitch and one for zig-zag machines. They make an extremely<br />
nice buttonhole.</p>

<p>re: Mooncup<br /><br />
I used a version of these in the early 70's, until they stopped being<br />
made (or, at least, marketed in Kansas, where I was living at the<br />
time). If I were young enough to still need these, I'd buy a Mooncup in<br />
a heartbeat.</p>

<p>Back to reading this thread -</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  6:57 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258179</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #64 from Jim</title>
         <description>comment from Jim on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely agree with the sad disposable nature of so much of what<br />
we have, but I find that a lot of truly good choices are<br />
counter-intuitive (ethan @47's story is a good example). Reusing bags<br />
is good, I will agree, but plastic shopping bags are apparently not the<br />
demon that everyone thinks they are, <a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3508263.ece" rel="nofollow">see here</a>,<br />
and the cost of banning/taxing them might actually be counter<br />
productive (leading, for example, to an increased use of trash bags<br />
which, as pointed out above, are much thicker and less eco-friendly<br />
than shopping bags). <br /><br />
I think it's interesting how eager we are to focus on a problem, any<br />
problem, and totally ignore others (like, oh, the end of life as we<br />
know it when the oil runs out)--it's one of the reasons I tend to be<br />
skeptical whenever a people start cheering the latest environment<br />
saving fad (like <a href="http://www.sustainer.org/dhm_archive/index.php?display_article=keepined" rel="nofollow"> Nuclear power as the answer to our prayers</a>) .</p>

<p>It is important to think about taking steps to reduce our impact on<br />
the world, but deep meaning calls for deep analysis, I think. It might<br />
be beyond some of us ( though the guys at <a href="http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/" rel="nofollow">Freakonomics</a> do a good job of the kinds of analysis I think we need).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:02 PM by Jim&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:02:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #65 from Avram</title>
         <description>comment from Avram on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tying in with what Bruce said above, there's sometimes an annoying<br />
pain-in-the-ass factor that goes along with these old-timey Deep Value<br />
items. For example, I notice that two of the items in that "Real Deal"<br />
article Chris linked to -- the Pendleton shirt and the Hudson Bay point<br />
blanket -- are dry-clean-only. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:07 PM by Avram&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258181</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:07:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #66 from Emily</title>
         <description>comment from Emily on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I am troubled by how much deep value apparently depends on labor I can't add</i></p>

<p>I have some bone deformities and a rotated hip. I've had arthritis<br />
since I was 16. Exercise helps thankfully. Living 2 miles or less from<br />
everything also helps. If I did things the way the average American<br />
biker does, I'd be in terrible shape. Someone with more severe<br />
disabilities might not be able to bike at all. Or WALK. So I don't tell<br />
people to go car free, and I talk about the problems I've had. I talk<br />
about the solutions too, since someone else might learn from me.</p>

<p>It's important to do what is sensible and maintainable for *you*. It<br />
probably will not be the same as what I do, nor will it be the same as<br />
what Abi does. And it won't be the same as what my sister does (similar<br />
disabilities to me, and very different enviroment).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:07 PM by Emily&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258182</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:07:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #67 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pixelfish: I've never used the Ring, but seating a DivaCup is<br />
simpler than positioning a diaphragm, at least for me. It's sort of an<br />
intermediate complexity between tampon and diaphragm. It's basically<br />
fold, insert, rotate (to make sure it's unfolded). Very simple.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:09 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258183</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:09:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #68 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.intothewind.com/shop/Line_and_Accessories/Bulk_Line_and_Reels_for_Traditional_Kites/5_Hoop_Spool" rel="nofollow">A gadget to carry plastic bags</a></p>

<p>And if you're not shopping, you can go fly a kite.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:13 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258184</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:13:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #69 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hudson Bay Point blankets were invented considerably before dry<br />
cleaning. It's my experience that a wool blanket doesn't need washing<br />
very often -- and it's got to be possible to do it the old-fashioned<br />
way when it's actually necessary.</p>

<p>I wouldn't throw it in a modern washing machine and tumble dryer,<br />
but a washtub, and mild soap, and spreading it flat on the grass to<br />
dry? I'd be willing to risk it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:28 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258185</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:28:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #70 from Caroline</title>
         <description>comment from Caroline on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems to be today's conversation. I've already had it with two<br />
friends. We all seem to be thinking along the same lines -- if things<br />
go pear-shaped for a while, how can we make sure we can survive?</p>

<p>Having stuff that lasts and can be repaired is a big part of that. A<br />
rumor about a truckers' strike led me to make a shopping list last week<br />
of all the stuff we'd want stocked in case there was a temporary halt<br />
to shipping. We ended up with a lot of dried beans, peas, and lentils,<br />
canned vegetables, rice, and plenty of frozen veggies and meats -- and<br />
also plenty of shampoo, conditioner, soap, toilet paper, and paper<br />
towels. Because I have a Diva Cup, I did not have to put tampons on<br />
that list, and I thought that was pretty cool.</p>

<p>(I will evangelize for menstrual cups to anyone who will listen,<br />
actually. I've found that mine works a good deal better than the<br />
disposable alternatives, and it's darned convenient to never worry<br />
about buying stuff, because I'm always prepared.)</p>

<p>I would like to state for the record that those rumors were just<br />
rumors, and I have no credible source. We figured it was a good excuse<br />
to get a stockpile going, though. Turned out that it didn't cost much<br />
more than a regular shopping trip -- beans and canned goods are cheap.</p>

<p>I really want a sewing machine, so that I can repair, alter, and<br />
rework clothes as necessary. I have, in the past, stretched a pair of<br />
jeans that were a size too small by opening the side seams and adding a<br />
panel of colorful fabric on either side of the leg -- I got compliments<br />
on those in high school. That was with my mother's sewing machine. Not<br />
having to ditch clothes and start over when I go up or down a size<br />
would help a lot.</p>

<p>And I am planning to switch to reusable grocery bags just because I<br />
get extremely annoyed by dealing with the plastic kind. They pile up<br />
and fall out of the closet, and then the cats get hold of them and lick<br />
and bite them, and I have to take them away to prevent damage to the<br />
cats, and then I get fed up and just put them in the trash anyway,<br />
after which I feel guilty. A set of reusable bags is going to save me<br />
so much irritation.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:30 PM by Caroline&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258186</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:30:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #71 from Avram</title>
         <description>comment from Avram on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rikibeth, you're not making a good case for those blankets being<br />
easy to care for. Carting a wet blanket out to Prospect Park and<br />
watching it dry for a few hours is hardly less work than just dumping<br />
it in a washing machine and then a dryer. Leaving aside the question of<br />
what to do if I need to clean it in winter. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:41 PM by Avram&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258187</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:41:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #72 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back when I was on active duty at DLI, I had the usual problems with<br />
strings (the various pockets, flaps, gussets, etc. are prone to<br />
unravelling; this is frowned upon).</p>

<p>The default solution was to burn them. After I'd lost my third, or<br />
fourth, lighter one month, I said screw it, and bought a zippo.</p>

<p>It's been 15 years, and I still have the zippo.  It was ten dollars as a lump, vs. a serial expenditure of 99 cents.</p>

<p>I wear the same knife today I bought 21 years ago. I'm planning to<br />
buy a scythe. No more hassling with the mower. It'll be a couple of<br />
hundred dollars, but it's less than a mower costs, has very little in<br />
maintainence costs (maybe the snath gets damaged, or you hit a really<br />
big rock; other than that, a new stone every ten years or so it about<br />
it, that and polishing the hammer and anvil), makes no noise and<br />
impresses the neighbors. One can clear about an acre a day; of wheat.<br />
Grass is a bit quicker.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:42 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258188</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:42:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #73 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeline@18: <i>I wish companies were required to send out circuit<br />
diagrams and repair manuals with all of their electronics. I wish<br />
soldering and electrical repair were required classes in high school.</i></p>

<p>Moore's law is a pain in the arse. By the time many electronic<br />
devices break, they're also obsolete. And soldering a 200 pin surface<br />
mount chip isn't exactly easy, or cheap.</p>

<p>digital camera: sensors keep improving, storage keeps getting denser. the technology hasn't neared an asymptote yet.</p>

<p>inkjet printer: The cost of new black/white plus color cartridges<br />
for my printer nearly equals the cost of the printer with small<br />
cartridges included. They give printers away at cost or at a loss, and<br />
then make it up selling ink like it was a subscription service.</p>

<p>microwave: Well, I never felt comfortable monkeying around with radiation.</p>

<p><br /><br />
MP3 player: I'm surprised someone hasn't made a generic MP3 player,<br />
with a USB port built in for the actual storage of music. As the price<br />
of storage goes down, you can upgrade the memory, but keep the player.<br />
Then the interface would be almost zero dollars to build, and the cost<br />
of memory would be separated out. Of course, that just makes it more<br />
replacable, not repairable.</p>

<p>The main problem is the economics of electronic products push for<br />
more integration, which obsoletes older parts quickly. Combine that<br />
with ever plummeting costs for chips with more features, and it ends up<br />
costing you more to buy the old chip than to get the new one. I don't<br />
think it's going to settle out for a while yet.</p>

<p>The other problem is that the NRE to make an asic is like a million<br />
dollars, which makes it bloody hard for a mom and pop operation to come<br />
in and make a generic MP3 player that anyone can build or repair. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:49 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258189</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 19:49:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #74 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Avram, I wasn't exactly saying they'd be EASY to care for. Just that<br />
if dry cleaning disappeared, they wouldn't become entirely unusable. I<br />
have to admit I was thinking with my re-enactor brain -- the blankets<br />
are popular among Colonial re-enactors, and the house museum where I've<br />
volunteered in the past has done laundry demonstrations. Children seem<br />
to find it fun to play with the tub and washboard and the paddles for<br />
stirring the linens -- I'm sure they'd find it less so if they had to<br />
do the washing for a whole family, week after week.</p>

<p>I know that if my cat threw up on MY wool blanket (not a Hudson Bay,<br />
just a common blanket from probably the middle of the last century) in<br />
the wintertime, I'd sponge it off as best I could and drape it over the<br />
shower curtain rod while it dried, rather than trying to wash the whole<br />
thing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  7:52 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258190</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #75 from MamaDeb</title>
         <description>comment from MamaDeb on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abi@26:</p>

<p>Sorry.  <a href="http://www.lehmans.com/jump.jsp?itemType=PRODUCT&amp;itemID=2887" rel="nofollow">Here.</a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  8:07 PM by MamaDeb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258191</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:07:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #76 from John Mark Ockerbloom</title>
         <description>comment from John Mark Ockerbloom on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dena@46: Your mileage may vary, but personally I'm not particularly<br />
concerned about using up paper when I'm buying new books. Yes, there's<br />
an environmental cost to paper, but books use so small a portion of the<br />
paper-stream (1/2 to 1/3 of one percent of paper usage, according to<br />
Walt Crawford in the latest _Cites and Insights_) that I'm not that<br />
worried about it. The cost to me, as I see it, for forgoing books in<br />
the name of paper is higher. (We do buy used books more often than new,<br />
actually, but that reflects our interests and budgets more than a<br />
concern for paper.)</p>

<p>Seeing how much junk mail some other houses get, I'm pretty sure we<br />
save far more paper than we use in books just from having put ourselves<br />
years ago on the DMA's <a href="https://www.dmachoice.org/MPS/proto1.php" rel="nofollow">junk-mail opt-out lists</a>.  (It doesn't completely get rid of junk mail, but it reduces it substantially.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  8:11 PM by John Mark Ockerbloom&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258192</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:11:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #77 from mk</title>
         <description>comment from mk on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sometimes I think the most sustainable thing I can do is move<br />
elsewhere. Hawai'i, for me, has meant having to own a car (even though<br />
I prefer the bus) and eating mostly food grown in California, among<br />
other things. On the other hand, I don't have to heat my house with gas<br />
or oil.</p>

<p>I'd buy a treadle sewing machine without a zig-zag function - I<br />
prefer to sew buttonholes by hand. It doesn't take me any longer, since<br />
sewing them on the machine usually requires that I redo them. </p>

<p>When I lived in a town that had free recycling pickup (and charged a<br />
fee for trash pickup), I had stopped using plastic shopping bags, and<br />
didn't want to buy small plastic trash bag liners. I took the trash out<br />
of the house more frequently and scrubbed the bins at least once per<br />
week, which worked okay, but was really annoying to have to do during<br />
the winter when I couldn't just use the hose in the yard. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  8:20 PM by mk&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258193</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:20:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #78 from clew</title>
         <description>comment from clew on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This reminds me that I ought to order a replacement set of the<br />
replaceable parts for my pressure cooker (see also: fast way to deal<br />
with long-storing grains and beans).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  8:37 PM by clew&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258194</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:37:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #79 from neotoma</title>
         <description>comment from neotoma on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Try finding resole-able shoes. They aren't common at all anymore, especially for women.</p>

<p>I can get my Birkenstock sandals resoled until the cork actually<br />
breaks apart, but I haven't found a way to get my El Naturalista shoes<br />
done. It's frustrating, because they're both good shoe brands, and<br />
expensive, but one lasts up to five years, and the other doesn't.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:01 PM by neotoma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258195</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258195</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:01:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #80 from Jeff Youngstrom</title>
         <description>comment from Jeff Youngstrom on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second for Chico Bags @58</p>

<p>We're carfree here in our little suburb of Seattle. Three years now.<br />
We walk and bike and take the bus. We rent a car once in a while. More<br />
often we borrow a car from one of our neighbors. Good neighbors are<br />
about as deep value as you can get.</p>

<p>To improve bicycle carrying capacity there's <a href="http://xtracycle.com/" rel="nofollow">Xtracycle</a>, a bolt-on frame extension that radically increases a regular bike's utility.  Here are <a href="http://flickr.com/photos/jeffyoungstrom/sets/515126/" rel="nofollow">pictures of the more improbable loads I've carried on mine</a>.</p>

<p>Another old technology that's still wonderfully alive is woodworking<br />
tools. For remarkably little money you can buy vintage human-powered<br />
drills, saws, and planes that surpass anything manufactured today for<br />
quality and utility. A good eggbeater drill is a joy to use--silent,<br />
safe, fast, and the batteries don't run down until supper time.<br />
Outrageous amounts of good information and help on this available on<br />
the <a href="http://people.iarc.uaf.edu/%7Ecswingle/archive/faq.html" rel="nofollow">Oldtools mailing list</a>. <br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:04 PM by Jeff Youngstrom&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258196</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:04:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #81 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Any loss of the machine culture and we all starve.</p>

<p>Sure, some people will survive, but to a first approximation, none of us are them.</p>

<p>Deep value... I think this messily conflates two things.</p>

<p>One is that actual human utility innovates a whole lot slower than<br />
consumer products allege that they do; there are a great many things<br />
that are simpler, less expensive, better for you, and so on. Having<br />
stuff to do that has real, tangible results, of obvious or immediate<br />
value, is a goodness.</p>

<p>The other one is that the machine society runs as an open loop --<br />
there are inputs, stuff, and garbage -- rather than a closed loop --<br />
there are inputs and stuff -- and this has to change to the closed loop<br />
form as a matter of some urgency.</p>

<p>Me, well, no car, and have never owned one. Driver's license, and I<br />
use it occasionally, for 'not the last calendar year' values of<br />
occasionally. Linux since I got a computer that could run it, in 1997<br />
-- I can claim no virtue for this; I learnt to use a computer on a VAX,<br />
and only unixes seem natural -- and heavy reliance on large reusable<br />
bags. (One of them has wheels.)</p>

<p>On the other hand, new digital camera I like very much; some things<br />
are better, more effective, expand the realizable choice space<br />
available to people. The problem isn't that consumer digital cameras<br />
don't last; the problem is that the question "what eats those?" doesn't<br />
have an answer.</p>

<p>(All that lives is food.  Technology needs to live, is all.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:06 PM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258197</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:06:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #82 from Keith</title>
         <description>comment from Keith on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C. Wingate @30: That reminds me of the time I replaced the battery<br />
on my 1998 Dodge Stratus. I figured it'd be a simple operation:<br />
disconnect the leads, pull out the old battery, pop in the new one,<br />
reconnect. Until I realized the battery housing was not in the engine<br />
compartment but in front of the front left wheel. I had to turn the<br />
wheel all the way to the left, squat down, reach under one handed and<br />
unscrew the splash guard, yank that out from the wheel base, disconnect<br />
the battery and then figure out a way to slide it out of the casing<br />
without dropping it (still crouched down, fiddling in the wheel well,<br />
mind). Once the old battery was out then I had to somehow fit the new<br />
battery into the narrow recess with a tire in my face. Ever try lifting<br />
a car battery from a squatting position and holding it out in front of<br />
you? It really works those shoulder muscles, i tell you what.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:07 PM by Keith&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258198</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:07:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #83 from Emily H.</title>
         <description>comment from Emily H. on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In January of this year I moved from Raleigh, NC to Brooklyn, NY<br />
because, in short, I felt like I was stabbing the earth - to live<br />
somewhere sidewalks hardly existed, public transportation likewise,<br />
bicycles had no place on the road, and where I had to drive absolutely<br />
everywhere. Also because, even though my car gets good mileage, I felt<br />
like gas prices were never likely to come back down. </p>

<p>I am astonished by how little I miss having a car; on the other<br />
hand, all the steps up and down to the subway have given me Runner's<br />
Knee. So, in these kinds of threads on certain forums, the discussions<br />
seems to turn to You Could Do It If You'd Only Try Harder. What, it's<br />
ten miles on busy highways after dark? That doesn't mean you can't do<br />
it by bike! Be a man! </p>

<p>A person's willingness to make sacrifices turns into a measure of<br />
their toughness, even their manliness - which I feel is not only<br />
insensitive to older people and disabled people, it also turns the<br />
focus to "who can endure the most sacrifices"... when maybe we should<br />
be looking at how to change the infrastructure and the systems in place<br />
so that you don't <i>have</i> to do those ten miserable miles in the dark to get to work. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:07 PM by Emily H.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258199</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:07:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #84 from Linkmeister</title>
         <description>comment from Linkmeister on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>mk @ #77, hey, if our illustrious singing mayor has his way we'll<br />
have heavy steel-on-steel rail here in another ten years. Throw away<br />
that car!</p>

<p>I bought a used GEO Metro with 13K on it in 1998. At last inspection<br />
it had 49K on it, ten years later. It's not that I think about driving<br />
less, it's just that I don't go very far when I drive. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:29 PM by Linkmeister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258200</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258200</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:29:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #85 from Katherine Mankiller</title>
         <description>comment from Katherine Mankiller on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Diva Cup rocks the house, and I write in plain text because that<br />
way I get the benefit of subversion's merge and conflict resolution<br />
features. I wish I could bike to work. I suggest it every time we fill<br />
up the gas tank. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008  9:54 PM by Katherine Mankiller&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258201</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258201</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:54:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #86 from SK-reader</title>
         <description>comment from SK-reader on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deep value - lasting stuff - good technologies...</p>

<p>*************<br /><br />
Cast iron pans - my mom is using her grandma's - still going strong<br />
after about 70 or 80 years. Can be used with flame or electricity - put<br />
in an oven as well.</p>

<p>Foot powered sewing machines (yes!) - I see them in use in Shenzhen and still a a few in Hong Kong.</p>

<p>Carrying poles - some people in HK still have them. I remember<br />
watching the news a few months ago and a water main burst near a big<br />
apartment block and the water trucks came &amp; there were some people<br />
who were out there w/ their carrying poles to take their 2 buckets<br />
home. Good for carrying lots of things, not just water.</p>

<p>Electric trams - still going strong in HK after 100+ years http://www.hktramways.com/ - double-decked!</p>

<p>Hand-carts - very useful for moving big loads of stuff without a<br />
vehicle or a pack animal - seen more in China now rather than here now</p>

<p>Chinese cleaver &amp; whetstone - you don't really need so many<br />
knives for regular kitchen stuff &amp; it can eliminate need for meat<br />
grinder</p>

<p>Mortar &amp; pestle - can help eliminate need for food processor</p>

<p>Thermos - keeps hot water hot!</p>

<p>Tankless water heaters - will make hot water when you need it.<br />
Electric is nice because you never run out of gas in the middle of your<br />
shower. Gas is nice because you can still have a hot shower if the<br />
electricity is gone.</p>

<p>LPG Cylinders - for the hot water heater or the cooker</p>

<p>Gas hot-plate (hobs) - two rings are great! very easy to attach and get going. Some are automatic, others you light w/ a match. <br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 10:11 PM by SK-reader&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258202</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:11:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #87 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gas hot plate -- like the Iwatami burners we use in catering that run off of canned butane? I LOVE those.</p>

<p>Of course, they aren't especially sustainable or deep value, as I<br />
see it -- you still need the butane cans. What makes them better than a<br />
regular modern kitchen stove?<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 10:32 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258203</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 22:32:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #88 from B. Durbin</title>
         <description>comment from B. Durbin on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deep value doesn't necessarily mean buying different stuff.<br />
Sometimes it's just a matter of researching brands (aka "being thrifty,<br />
not cheap.")</p>

<p>Most people I know abhor toaster ovens because they "break sll of<br />
the time." We've had our (Krups) toaster oven for seven years now,<br />
seeing steady use for both toasting and oven duty, and it's still going<br />
strong. And because there's only the two of us, that means we don't<br />
have to heat up the big oven for a meal.</p>

<p>Same thing with just about anything else— do your research and your<br />
purchase will last you for years. Sometimes this is surprising— I still<br />
get good use out of my high school solar calculator, which has decided<br />
our 100W equivalent CFL is a perfectly legitimate light source.</p>

<p>And (looks around) I actually am still pretty happy with my six-year-old computer. Don't tell anyone, mmmkay?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 11:03 PM by B. Durbin&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258204</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258204</guid>
         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:03:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #89 from Marilee</title>
         <description>comment from Marilee on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let's see -- my van is 21 years old and I drive fewer than 3K miles<br />
a year. I do have to drive. I'm disabled and I can't even get on buses<br />
here, assuming I could walk to the stop. And how would I get the trash<br />
and recycling out and the groceries and such in? I mentioned a<br />
reclining tricycle to my nephrologist and she said "Absolutely not!"</p>

<p>I only recently moved to reusable grocery bags -- my grocery store<br />
lets you recycle their bags and the WashPost bags and I did that for<br />
decades. I bought two of their bags and had to adapt them some (the<br />
weight would be too low and make me wobble and I'm not a Weeble) and I<br />
always ask the cashiers to balance them weight-wise as much as possible<br />
and some do. The one that refused to not only balance them, but<br />
insisted on putting everything in one bag "because it fit" was<br />
reported. I still put the WashPost bags in the reusable bag and that<br />
reminds me to take it with me that day.</p>

<p>After the stroke/coma, I couldn't use tampons, so I used <a href="http://www.decentexposures.com/pads.shtml" rel="nofollow">reusable</a><br />
pads. I still have them even though I'm in menopause. Maybe I should<br />
repurpose them for rags. (This is also where I buy bras and underpants<br />
and my current ones are now uncomfortably large and I need to get more.)</p>

<p>I have three windup flashlight/radios -- one in the van, one in the<br />
bedroom, one in the office (it's a small condo, I think that's enough).</p>

<p>A lot of the hand/strength powered tools mentioned here are things I<br />
can't use anymore. As Bruce Baugh commented, moving everybody to more<br />
of these tools isn't possible. There will always be people who are not<br />
capable of using them.</p>

<p>If I couldn't use a microwave, I'd be eating a lot of cheese and<br />
bread and fruit. I can't cook anymore. I have about two gallons of<br />
trash every week, and most of that is frozen food packaging (the actual<br />
trays can be recycled). I have compact fluorescents in the bathrooms<br />
that are 21 years old. I do the best I can, but I can't meet an ideal.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 11:19 PM by Marilee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258205</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:19:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #90 from Diatryma</title>
         <description>comment from Diatryma on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, fountain pens. I had one from about freshman year of high school<br />
to senior year of college-- the cap fragmented, and I don't know if<br />
it's the kind of thing that can be replaced-- and a Waterman Phileas<br />
filled with Noodler's, and... okay, I was weak and it was purple,<br />
Noodler's has a purple ink that looks kind of purple and it comes with<br />
a pen. I expect it to show up by Wednesday. If I don't like the pen,<br />
I'll pass it on to someone who does; if I don't like the ink, much the<br />
same.</p>

<p>Speaking of, anyone like Noodler's Nightshade?  Too red for me.  I wanted *purple*.</p>

<p>This post has reminded me to get a damned helmet. I like biking, and<br />
this is a good town for it... but I have hair. I didn't take the bike<br />
out at all last year because I felt people would hate me more for<br />
riding without a helmet than for driving. Time to see how much I'll<br />
have to spend for a helmet that I'll be willing to wear.*</p>

<p>A related question (I am full of them today): what *is* proper<br />
distance for a bike? I see them all the time, but all I know is that<br />
they're very skinny cars, and it makes me so nervous passing them<br />
because it's rude somehow.</p>

<p>And the Divacup is amazing. Tampons gave me cramps for years, and<br />
not always in logical places. My Divacup has some interesting side<br />
effects, but nothing as bad as pads, and once I figured it out, it was<br />
so much easier. </p>

<p>On the subject of older cars, I have another: old-people cars. You<br />
know the Buick the little old lady bought for her last car and splurged<br />
on because she was finally going to get a car she liked, and never<br />
drove? I have that car. Seriously. Little old lady and everything. If I<br />
get over my bike issues, I'll be driving Milady Buick to the mall once<br />
a month and out of town... whenever necessary. Why do I love this car?<br />
Because it is made for people who a) are not getting a substandard car<br />
for their last one and b) are arthritic or otherwise not fooling around<br />
with discomfort. It is such a good car. </p>

<p><br /><br />
*Please do not lecture me on why I should wear a helmet. I am fairly<br />
certain I will interpret any comment as lecturing. I know I should.<br />
This is why I haven't ridden a bike I love to things I love to do,<br />
because other people will think less of me for not wearing one. I have<br />
issues, yes.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 11:31 PM by Diatryma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258206</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:31:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #91 from Daniel Klein</title>
         <description>comment from Daniel Klein on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of the jerkoff flashlight: my Dad has a wrist watch which<br />
automatically rewinds itself with the normal movements it's subjected<br />
to being worn on your wrist. So whenever you move your arm or walk<br />
around, you wind up your watch. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 11:37 PM by Daniel Klein&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258207</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:37:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #92 from SK-reader</title>
         <description>comment from SK-reader on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rikibeth at #87,</p>

<p><br /><br />
No, bigger than that (I think)</p>

<p>Like these:<br /><br />
http://www.tradeeasy.com/photo/seller/6586/lgraphic/windynasty4079.jpg</p>

<p>http://www.tradeeasy.com/photo/seller/4434/lgraphic/twinklestar1040.jpg</p>

<p><br /><br />
The lasting value is:</p>

<p>1) The LPG cannisters can last for up to a month or more at a time<br />
&amp; are re-fillable &amp; recyclable. You put down a deposit for the<br />
cannisters. </p>

<p>2) The LPG cannisters are reasonably portable - one can carry them<br />
on one's back if need be - no need for infrastructure of gas mains. </p>

<p>3)The gas burners are relatively simple to hook up and move around.<br />
If you move house you could carry one in your arms (or on a hand cart).</p>

<p>4) The gas burners are cleaner &amp; easier to deal with than cooking with coal briquettes, charcoal, or wood.</p>

<p>5) The gas burners can last for quite some time - I've seen some that are at least 30 years old.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 11:43 PM by SK-reader&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258208</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:43:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #93 from joel hanes</title>
         <description>comment from joel hanes on 31.Mar.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It's hard to believe that this thread is up to 92 comments and no<br />
one has mentioned Wendell Berry's criteria for adoption of a new tool<br />
or technology:</p>

<p>1. The new tool should be cheaper than the one it replaces.<br /><br />
2. It should be at least as small in scale as the one it replaces.<br /><br />
3. It should do work that is clearly anddemonstrably better than the one it replaces.<br /><br />
4. It should use less energy than the one it replaces.<br /><br />
5. If possible, it should use some form of solar energy, such as that of the body.<br /><br />
6. It should be repairable by a person of ordinary intelligence, provided that he or she has the necessary tools.<br /><br />
7. It should be purchasable and repairable as near to home as possible.<br /><br />
8. It should come from a small, privately owned shop or store that will take it back for maintenance and repair.<br /><br />
9. It should not replace or disrupt anything good that already exists, and this includes family and community relationships.</p>

<p>from <a href="http://home.btconnect.com/tipiglen/berrynot.html" rel="nofollow">WHY I AM NOT GOING TO BUY A COMPUTER</a></p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted March 31, 2008 11:53 PM by joel hanes&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258209</link>
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         <pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:53:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #94 from Paul Lalonde</title>
         <description>comment from Paul Lalonde on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dena @54 - As a recent convert to home butchery, well, it's fun!  And incredibly educational.  I can't recommend Merle Ellis' <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Up-Kitchen-Merle-Ellis/dp/0877010714" rel="nofollow">Cutting Up in the Kitchen</a><br />
enough; it's a practical introduction to what's in your meat counter,<br />
though you can get yourself up to whole beasts with a bit of effort.<br />
Getting closer to my meat has led to tremendous improvement in the<br />
quality of what I put into myself - if you're going to go through the<br />
effort, it's worth investing in free-range, local, and organic. Happier<br />
animals seem to taste better, too.</p>

<p>Avram @65 - They are only dry-clean only if you're lazy. Cold water<br />
gentle wash (or hand wash), and lay out to dry. Yes, you'll lose the<br />
pristine "I just bought it today" look, but you'll trade it for "I love<br />
it and use it", which I tend to prefer.</p>

<p>Greg @73 - The device you want doesn't doesn't really exist because<br />
memory grows so much faster than your connection bandwidth. In<br />
practice, you'd have a 16gig device that took eight hours to fill.<br />
[OB-related-but-not-really-Tech: while memory grows by the square of<br />
the process feature size, the off-chip connection can only grow by a<br />
linear factor, because it has to come out the edge, pretty much<br />
guaranteeing you won't be able to fill it as fast as you want].</p>

<p>neotoma@79 - You might want to track down a shoemaker and have them<br />
*make* you shoes. I had this done about 6 months ago, and I think this<br />
is the first pair of shoes I've had that actually fits right. They cost<br />
more, but they can be resoled and otherwise repaired. Although all the<br />
little nails in the sole set off the metal detectors at the airport...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 12:21 AM by Paul Lalonde&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258210</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:21:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #95 from Diatryma</title>
         <description>comment from Diatryma on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, in the midst of the long comment, I forgot.</p>

<p>I need grocery bags. Not reusable ones, have a couple of those<br />
bought in a fit of bike-optimism before it became apparent that it is<br />
Not Done. I use paper bags for recycling; as far as I can understand<br />
the recycling rules here, items must be sorted into bags and placed in<br />
the bin... where the bags will stay until a paper day. Plastic bags are<br />
for the bathroom trash can, the cat's litter scoops, and a gigantic bag<br />
in the pantry to drive over to the food bank one of these days.</p>

<p>Checkout people keep asking me if I want my milk in a bag. It's a<br />
gallon of milk. It is in a plastic jug with a handle. There is<br />
astonishingly little that can be done to make that more portable.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 12:24 AM by Diatryma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258211</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258211</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:24:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #96 from Lizzy L</title>
         <description>comment from Lizzy L on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuff I don't have and seem not to need: microwave, cable tv,<br />
camera, iPod, iron -- none of my clothes need ironing -- food<br />
processor. </p>

<p>I don't own anything that needs to be drycleaned. </p>

<p>I have a cell phone, and in 6 months I've used it only once. </p>

<p>I try to remember to bring my cloth bags to the grocery store, but<br />
sometimes I forget. They are wonderful bags, though; huge, strong, much<br />
easier to hold than plastic ones.</p>

<p>I wish I didn't need a car, but I do.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 12:31 AM by Lizzy L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258212</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258212</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:31:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #97 from T.W</title>
         <description>comment from T.W on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the best deep value products you can have is your health and doing everything you can to hold onto it.<br /><br />
The better your health the more you can do yourself without fangled<br />
technology, freeing up resources for those that truly need them. We<br />
have become just a bit too delicate to survive without our toys at<br />
times.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:01 AM by T.W&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258213</link>
         <guid isPermaLink="true">http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258213</guid>
         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:01:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #98 from bryan</title>
         <description>comment from bryan on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"If you're walking, you'll make the mistake of forgetting your bag<br />
once or twice, tops. And if you're walking and you forget your bag the<br />
second time, odds are good that you'll buy a second bag rather than<br />
endure another walk with plastic ones."</p>

<p>well, my trick is I have a big Ortlieb compression bag with shoulder<br />
straps so it will function like a backpack in which I carry what I need<br />
during the day, generally my computer, power supply, training clothes.<br />
The size of this can be rolled down to a small backpack, when I go to<br />
the store I unroll it to the size of what I need to buy, since it can<br />
hold 50 liters it's seldom I reach that limit. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:08 AM by bryan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #99 from heresiarch</title>
         <description>comment from heresiarch on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abi @ 11: That is a story of wonderful improbability.</p>

<p>Bruce Baugh @ 59: <i>"Some of this, to be sure, is spillover<br />
frustration at healthy young (generally male) bloggers who've done<br />
yeoman work analyzing the screwing over that the working and middle<br />
classes have gotten and then turn right around to enthuse about hiking<br />
the price of food and transportation, knowing damn well that nothing<br />
like sufficient aid to the needy will be forthcoming."</i></p>

<p>It is a real problem, the extent to which confronting the wasteful<br />
nature of our society is seen as an issue of personal morality, rather<br />
than a problem of collective action. To be fair, though, there are<br />
those who are aware of the extent to which being environmentally<br />
conscious has become a luxury item, and are trying to do something<br />
about it. To grab two random examples from my daily blogs, one of <a href="http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein" rel="nofollow">Exra Klein</a>'s<br />
regular issues is the utterly bass-ackwards government subsidies on<br />
meat and dairy versus fruits and vegetables, which have the perverse<br />
effect of encouraging people to eat less healthily. <a href="http://pandagon.blogsome.com/" rel="nofollow">Amanda Marcotte</a><br />
takes environmental issues on from the feminist perspective, addressing<br />
the way that coding earth-friendly action as the domain of middle class<br />
women works to trivialize the issue.</p>

<p>At its best, individual action serves as trailblazing, pointing the<br />
direction for society as a whole by saying "See, this works even<br />
without any social support. So let's make it easier for everyone to<br />
do!" At its worst, it prevents collective action from taking place. I<br />
think it's important not to discourage the former while criticizing the<br />
latter.</p>

<p>Various @ many: The discussion about sewing machines, manual and<br />
electric ought to remind us that there's nothing about modern<br />
technology that is inherently more prone to failure than old-timey<br />
stuff. My parent's KitchenAid is almost thirty years old and still<br />
going strong. It is arguably <i>easier</i> to design appliances and equipment to last forever than it was then--materials technology has only improved. </p>

<p>The fundamental thing that has changed isn't the nature of the<br />
product*, it's the design philosophy behind it. Producers have been<br />
shortening and shortening the lifespan of consumer items. It's just<br />
more profitable that way, and consumers have become habituated to<br />
it--why not force everyone to buy new stuff every five years, or every<br />
three? What alternatives do consumers have?</p>

<p>I like the idea of buying one really high-quality item and using it<br />
for the rest of my life. Whenever possible, I do. But it's almost never<br />
possible--I am frustrated, every time I buy new glasses, because the<br />
frames I got last time around aren't made any more. How can I buy items<br />
with deep value if no one makes them? /rant</p>

<p>*Cutting-edge tech aside. Greg's point about Moore's Law is well-taken.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:14 AM by heresiarch&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #100 from Madeline F</title>
         <description>comment from Madeline F on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#70 Caroline: From a tidy roommate in the past I learned this trick<br />
to keep plastic bags in check: stretch them out between your hands,<br />
twist them into loose ropes, and tie them into a loose half bow knot.<br />
Takes less than a second. Suddenly they are tiny and weighty, and you<br />
can fit oodles into the single bag that escaped this treatment, to be<br />
retrieved for wastebasket or "shoes in suitcase" duty, or taken to<br />
Longs Drugs to be recycled.</p>

<p>#73 Greg London: I say short lifecycle stuff sucks, you say short<br />
lifecycle stuff sucks. I think you're distracted by the shiny wrt your<br />
Moore's Law argument, though: it's the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_window_fallacy" rel="nofollow">Broken Window fallacy</a>.<br />
I had a perfectly good 5 Megapixel camera which reliably did what I<br />
wanted. Now I have an even awesomer 7 Megapixel camera with a wide<br />
aperture and unlimited video. In both cases I have a digital camera I<br />
like just fine; in the second case I'm $280 poorer.</p>

<p>As for my suggestions about making ours less of an economy built<br />
around disposable crap by requiring teaching and knowledge about fixing<br />
it, sounds like you're saying that most of our short lifecycle<br />
electronics are based on chips that are all baked together and pretty<br />
much impossible for a human to replace? I'm not sure I buy that most<br />
electronic failure is a result of something going wrong in these chips.<br />
They sound sturdy. Still sounds like a good idea to have the knowledge<br />
to test the power going to them and the stuff going on downstream.</p>

<p>Of course, if you have an idea about how to encourage fixable<br />
electronic bling, I'm keen on getting suggestions. Electronic bling has<br />
some really excellent applications.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:55 AM by Madeline F&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #101 from Daniel Boone</title>
         <description>comment from Daniel Boone on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Avram #65: <i>"I notice that two of the items in that "Real Deal"<br />
article Chris linked to -- the Pendleton shirt and the Hudson Bay point<br />
blanket -- are dry-clean-only."</i></p>

<p>This is the most bizarre thing I've ever heard.  As pointed out above, both articles listed are 100% pure wool and <i>predate</i><br />
dry-cleaning. The Hudson Bay blankets, in particular, were designed for<br />
trading to indigenous northern peoples, who were not noted for their<br />
laundering technologies (nor, honestly speaking, their laundering --<br />
it's tough to launder a caribou skin, which is the technology the<br />
blanket was replacing.)</p>

<p>I grew up a few miles south of the Arctic circle in a wood-heated<br />
log cabin. My parents slept under Hudson Bay blankets (they were deemed<br />
too expensive for child use, we got old sleeping bags from Salvation<br />
Army) and my father wore Pendleton shirts exclusively, as nobody else<br />
was selling a 100% wool man's button shirt at the time. </p>

<p>Solidly-woven heavy 100% wool fabrics are easy to launder. Hand<br />
wash, cold water, luke-warm if heavily soiled. Gentle soap. Woolite is<br />
great; Ivory works. Gently press out excess water. Hang on clothline. </p>

<p>But, here's the point. The blankets, in particular, never really<br />
need laundering; they're used in a clean environment with a cotton<br />
sheet between them and oily or soiled human skin. After a long winter,<br />
hang them in the sunshine for a day to air out accumulated smells, and<br />
they're as new. Barring kittens or catastrophes, they don't get soiled.<br />
If you've got special soil issues (sick people, children, pets,<br />
smokers, badly-chimneyed wood stoves) you use a russian-style<br />
blanket-cover that encapsulates the blanket like those things that<br />
protect goose down comforters.</p>

<p>Dry-clean only?  Maybe in some yuppie universe, but not in the universe where those products were first marketed.</p>

<p>Which I think is a point to keep in mind about "old tech" in the<br />
context of this discussion. Tech cannot always be readily divorced from<br />
its context. In the modern world where you've got an electric washing<br />
machine with a spin cycle and a center spindle, 100% wool fabrics are <b>not</b><br />
appropriate tech, especially if you live in an urban apartment with no<br />
outside clothesline. But if you're packing a bedroll every day for a<br />
dogsled trip to the next log cabin along the trapline, 100% wool is way<br />
lighter and more compact than furred hides, will keep you alive better<br />
than killer cotton, and will stay "clean enough" until the next time<br />
(spring?) that you do laundry, which realistically is going to be "by<br />
hand and in a tub" at best no matter what fabric you have.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:29 AM by Daniel Boone&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #102 from Tom Courtney</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Courtney on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>"Looking at a world where the economy is probably going to be tightening up for a while"</p>

<p>A fairly short while, I think. We're at the cusp of an energy<br />
production shift, and it's going to be huge - the ball is already<br />
rolling. The age of the Douglass-Martin sunscreen is being ushered in<br />
before our eyes. At least three companies I know of are getting the<br />
price of solar down to below that of coal for electricity - one of them<br />
claims (I think correctly) that a Vermont-sized chunk of Arizona would<br />
suffice to power 90% of the US power-grid, including in that<br />
calculation a significant transition to electric cars.</p>

<p>But long or short, I think the right criterion for deep value is not<br />
the stuff we dream of keeping, but the stuff we actually keep. My house<br />
is 125 years old, and with a modicum of care, will last another 125,<br />
easily. I've hung around some of my best friends for over thirty years,<br />
and I don't expect that to end anytime soon. The system of government<br />
I've been fond of all my life has taken some hits recently, but I'm<br />
hopeful it will bounce back. </p>

<p>Perhaps I just find  revealed preferences a better guide than stated ones. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:00 AM by Tom Courtney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258218</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #103 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>xeger @49, Dena @54 -- I agree wholeheartedly about skills. Knowing<br />
how to do something, even if you choose not to do it yourself,<br />
empowers. That goes for all sorts of things, including finances,<br />
household and car repairs -- anything you can think of. It means you<br />
can be a better consumer, will stand a chance of not getting cheated,<br />
will get good value for money. </p>

<p>Not that I am a whiz at everything. My husband installed a nifty<br />
rainwater collection system that theoretically will supply the toilets<br />
with water. Also various computer controls for the window shades. Also<br />
the computer system in the house (I think we're up to 16 computers at<br />
the moment, including our own server). I haven't been able to master<br />
these systems, and this sort of thing worries me. If anything happens<br />
to him, I'm screwed. But the skill sets one acquires are a function of<br />
time, personal inclination and talent, and also sometimes (dis)ability,<br />
as others have mentioned.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:13 AM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258219</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #104 from Lee</title>
         <description>comment from Lee on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>xeger, #49: <i>"The magic just happens" is a spectacular form of ignorance.</i> </p>

<p>Yes, and it's one which has been deliberately encouraged in American<br />
culture for well over a generation. It's difficult to find toys that<br />
encourage tinkering and/or experimentation even for young teenagers<br />
now, and most mechanical and electrical items are marketed as black<br />
boxes -- when they break, it's cheaper to get a new one than to spend<br />
the time to fix it (if fixing it is even possible). </p>

<p>But then, tinkering and experimenting encourage logical thinking and<br />
critical skills -- and there is a large and powerful subset of<br />
authority figures who <i>do not want</i> citizens with the ability to<br />
think logically and analyze critically. (Actually, there are several<br />
partially-overlapping subsets, each of them having somewhat different<br />
reasons.) Because people who can reason and analyze also <i>question</i>...<br />
and that's not good for said authorities. They want drones, who will do<br />
as they're told without bothering to wonder why; smart enough to do the<br />
work, but lacking the habits of independent thought. </p>

<p>R. Emrys, #58: I am SO with you about the word processor! I've never<br />
been a fast writer; my typing is much quicker, plus there are the<br />
tremendous advantages of the backspace key for corrections and the<br />
ability to edit without recopying. Losing those things would be, for<br />
me, a severe hardship -- I could get along, but I wouldn't be happy. </p>

<p>Avram, #71: Wool fabric + washing machine agitation = felting. Not<br />
what you want for your blanket! OTOH, you can buy 2 yards of 60"<br />
acrylic fleece material for a lot less than one of those Hudson Bay<br />
blankets, and the resulting throw is completely washable and doesn't<br />
need any edge treatment. If you need a bigger blanket, buy 2 pieces and<br />
sew them together. Our experience has been that they wear pretty well,<br />
too. </p>

<p>SK-reader, #86: How do those tankless water heaters compare in energy usage? To me, it seems as though you'd use <i>more</i> energy with one in a colder climate, as opposed to storing heated water in an insulated tank. But I could easily be wrong. </p>

<p>B. Durbin, #88: We have a toaster oven as opposed to a toaster; it works just as well for toast, and then <i>also</i><br />
lets us do a lot of things that a toaster won't, such as bagels and<br />
grilled-cheese sandwiches. We heat leftover pizza with it all the time<br />
-- it doesn't take any longer than the microwave, and the crust stays<br />
firm instead of going limp. Try doing <i>that</i> in a toaster! </p>

<p>Diatryma, #90: I hear you about the helmet issue. I grew up riding<br />
without a helmet -- only bike racers wore them in the 60s and 70s --<br />
and dammit, I don't WANT to wear one, even though I understand<br />
intellectually that it's advisable. Yes, I'm still working thru <i>my</i> issues on this too, so you have my sympathies. <br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:45 AM by Lee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #105 from Epacris</title>
         <description>comment from Epacris on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Altho' this story might be of general interest to y'all, ('<a href="http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/01/2204768.htm" rel="nofollow">Email archive to immortalise Australian life</a>'), for this particular thread, I would draw attention to the last three pars of this version, in our <a href="http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2008/03/31/1206850855592.html" rel="nofollow">local paper</a>, the SMH.  I'm assuming it's <strong>not</strong> an April Fools' joke.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:51 AM by Epacris&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258221</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 03:51:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #106 from Epacris</title>
         <description>comment from Epacris on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curses, for my fellow Aussies, I forgot to correct the link that was given in the email archive story; it <em>should</em> be: <a href="http://emailaustralia.ninemsn.com.au/About/" rel="nofollow">emailaustralia.ninemsn.com.au</a>.  The one given goes to a main page where I can't find any link to that project.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  4:05 AM by Epacris&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258222</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 04:05:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #107 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Bruce @59:</strong><br /><br />
Coupla things.</p>

<p>First off, if things can be repaired simply, using easily accessible<br />
tools, then they can be repaired by a local craftsman as well as the<br />
owner (like the 2CV designed so that a French village blacksmith can<br />
fix it). Not everyone has the knack, tools, ability and time to repair<br />
things. But there is still a value in something that you can get fixed<br />
locally, rather than having to throw it away or ship it back to the<br />
factory.</p>

<p>Also, we all have our own lines and limits. Deep value is one of a<br />
number of factors that I use to make my choices, along with time,<br />
convenience, money, etc, etc. I don't know where other peoples'<br />
priorities lie, but I assume they're all in different places. The issue<br />
is as much stewardship as conservation: using the resources wisely, not<br />
saving them for saving's sake. For instance, one should drive when it's<br />
appropriate (which for some people = always, for others = never, but<br />
for most people somewhere in between). Reducing my car trips leaves<br />
more petroleum available for my disabled neighbor, and clears the road<br />
for her as well; it should not shame her.</p>

<p>The minute this topic, or this thread becomes a stick to beat other<br />
people rather than an exploration of our own values and discoveries, I<br />
am going to go out and buy the cheapest gimcrack piece of junk<br />
manufactured halfway across the world and stick it directly in<br />
landfill. Still in its indestructible plastic wrapping. Unless it has<br />
lead in it, in which case I will open it up and <em>lick</em> it first.</p>

<p>&lt;/rant&gt;</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  4:11 AM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258223</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #108 from Alan Braggins</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Braggins on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Note that many wind up torches use the winding to recharge internal<br />
batteries (unlike the Bayliss clockwork radio). And rechargable<br />
batteries do still have a finite life, so if you are relying on it for<br />
emergency use, check it every now and again (and if it has failed,<br />
don't put NiCd rechargeables in regular trash for landfill).<br /><br />
#73: You can get generic MP3 players that take SD memory cards. But the<br />
ones I've seen aren't SDHC, so 2Gb is your limit. (You can still swap<br />
cards with different 2Gb collections though.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  4:22 AM by Alan Braggins&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258224</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 04:22:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #109 from Nix</title>
         <description>comment from Nix on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the problems with a lot of modern portable electrical gear<br />
--- including the stuff I'm addicted to, like an Ogg player[1] --- is<br />
that they use lithium ion batteries. While these are really cool and<br />
have lots of advantages, like running, well, *cool*, and being<br />
reshapable into all sorts of strange shapes to fit into confined<br />
spaces, and recharging really fast without a lot of gas being given off<br />
and having no memory effect and not having a noticeable limit on<br />
recharge count and having a fairly hig power density, they do have a<br />
few notable disadvantages:</p>

<p> - if you recharge them too fast you *do* get gas evolution. A lot<br />
of it. And heat. And then the casing breaks open and you get hot liquid<br />
sodium metal. They call this 'venting with flame' because 'nasty<br />
explosion' sounds really bad.</p>

<p> - oxidation eventually raises their internal resistance to the<br />
point that, while they still have lots of power, they won't give you<br />
any of it in a useful fashion</p>

<p>Put those together, and you get batteries which are shaped for the<br />
specific model of hardware they come with, are coupled to specific<br />
charging circuits, and which wear out every three years unless you can<br />
breathe pure nitrogen. My understanding is that the consortium that<br />
holds the patents won't let you build a device using lithium-ion<br />
batteries if the battery is user-replaceable, because sodium burns are<br />
bad PR. </p>

<p>Of course there are perverse incentives here, because it's in the<br />
interests of the consumer electronics companies that you buy a new<br />
device every few years, or at least that you have to send it back to<br />
*them* so they can charge you almost as much to get a new battery<br />
fitted.</p>

<p><br /><br />
You can't throw it away when you're done, either: the chemicals inside<br />
make a lead-acid battery look environmentally friendly, so in the EU at<br />
least the immortally-titled WEEE Directive applies, so you have to send<br />
them to a special facility for destruction (they're too fiddly to<br />
recycle).</p>

<p>(Of course, last I heard there *were* no such facilities in the entire EU, and none planned to be built for years. Whoops.)</p>

<p><br /><br />
None of this stuff is conducive to deep value. (Personally I do the<br />
closest I can with my media player, which is to run Rockbox on it and<br />
learn how that works. The hardware may still be mostly-closed and<br />
disposable, but at least I know how the software that does the useful<br />
work functions.)</p>

<p>[1] hey, look, Ogg, not MP3! I'm a *rebel*, I am!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:06 AM by Nix&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #110 from Summer Storms</title>
         <description>comment from Summer Storms on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On shopping bags and "granny carts":</p>

<p>We do a fair bit of our grocery shopping at Aldi, where they do<br />
indeed charge for bags. The bags are plastic, but they're pretty<br />
durable and generally get used multiple times. At a cost of ten cents<br />
each, they're not expensive, but it makes sense to bring them back<br />
again and again on subsequent grocery runs. Another alternative is to<br />
use the cardboard boxes that Aldi receives and stocks many of its items<br />
in, and which they will gladly give you for free.</p>

<p>Another favorite place to buy groceries is Cleveland's <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/rabesphoto/378526742/in/pool-317669@N25" rel="nofollow">West</a> <a href="http://realneo.us/page/realneo-knows-and-loves-west-side-market-best-in-world" rel="nofollow">Side</a> <a href="http://www.westsidemarket.com/" rel="nofollow">Market</a>. Just about <i>everybody</i><br />
brings a "granny cart" there, because by the time you've hit two or<br />
three stands, it's easy to rack up 15 - 20 lbs of purchases and still<br />
not be done with your shopping. In fact, this place is what prompted me<br />
to go out and buy my cart.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:50 AM by Summer Storms&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #111 from John Chu</title>
         <description>comment from John Chu on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#100: I think Greg unintentionally defined "obsolete" to mean "not<br />
useful." A device can be nowhere near the state of the art, and still<br />
be useful as long as it still does what the owner needs it to do. I<br />
don't think we get to pin this one on Moore's Law. i.e., if a<br />
necessary, but unserviceable, device breaks after three years, we need<br />
to replace it regardless of whether it is obsolete.</p>

<p>Moore's Law doesn't say that companies have to design products which<br />
the end user can't service for himself. However, it can be a side<br />
effect of end user demands, in much the way Greg said. e.g., they<br />
surface mount chips, or integrate multiple chips into one to save space<br />
and, likely, power. Modern electronic devices often have specialized<br />
parts. Keeping them in stock after the device is no longer being<br />
manufactured is expensive. (This is assuming you can desolder and<br />
resolder surface mounts at home so that you can use it.) Sadly, this is<br />
even true for typically replaceable items like batteries and memory.<br />
Eventually, you hit a point where companies stop making them.</p>

<p>We, as a society, haven't made maintainability a must have feature<br />
in our electronics. I'm sure people still upgrade their desktop<br />
computers, but how many of them do? The trend is moving away from<br />
buying desktops towards laptops. In general, the latter aren't as user<br />
serviceable as the former. (Of course, some desktops aren't user<br />
serviceable any more either.)</p>

<p>Madeline, you wrote:<br /><br />
<em>I'm not sure I buy that most electronic failure is a result of something going wrong in these chips.</em></p>

<p>What do you think is the cause of most electronic failure? If you<br />
have schematics, and diagnostic tools, chances are you'll find that the<br />
failure is the result of some chip not behaving as it's supposed to.<br />
They make up the bulk of the device, why wouldn't they be the problem<br />
much of the time? The act of using the device subjects semiconductors<br />
to lots of heat. They don't really like heat. Just because you can't<br />
see them wear out doesn't mean they don't.</p>

<p>(This isn't arguing that we shouldn't be able to check things out<br />
for ourselves, BTW. I don't care if there are "user serviceable parts"<br />
or not, I still want to see what's going on.)</p>

<p>I think what Greg is saying is:<br /><br />
If all electronic devices used only socketed 7400 series ICs, servicing<br />
those devices wouldn't be that big a deal. With some documentation, and<br />
a multimeter, the end user could diagnose the problem, isolate the<br />
errant part(s), and replace it (them). Oh, and the device is also laid<br />
out on a PCB where all traces are exposed somewhere on the top level<br />
(or the device can deal with you wiring pins together directly).</p>

<p>However, we, as consumers, want device smaller and less power hungry<br />
than what a pile of discrete chips gives us. Electronics which meets<br />
modern demands then has specialized parts difficult to keep in stock<br />
once the device goes out of manufacture. It connects those parts<br />
together in ways that are difficult to disconnect then reconnect. And,<br />
we're apparently willing to give up on serviceability to get smaller,<br />
less power hungry, and more functional.</p>

<p>Do we have to build devices what aren't end user serviceable? No, of<br />
course not. However, as consumers, we have to see the ability to<br />
service it ourselves as a feature we're willing to pay money for. (The<br />
Linksys WRT54GL is an example of this, albeit in terms of software, not<br />
hardware. There is a reason why open source hardware hasn't had nearly<br />
the level of success as open source software.)</p>

<p>However, we may have to wait for the day when we can all fab our own<br />
chips at home, not to mention deal with surface mount, before we can<br />
even start to consider servicing modern, highly integrated designs.<br />
Either we retreat back to manufacturing techniques the end user can<br />
already deal with, or we push ahead and find ways for the end user to<br />
deal with the techniques the manufacturer is using.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:59 AM by John Chu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #112 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Lizzy L</b> @ 96... <i>none of my clothes need ironing</i></p>

<p>Are you implying that there are clothes that do need ironing?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  8:37 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258228</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #113 from heresiarch</title>
         <description>comment from heresiarch on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee @ 104: <i>"We heat leftover pizza with it all the time -- it<br />
doesn't take any longer than the microwave, and the crust stays firm<br />
instead of going limp. Try doing that in a toaster!"</i></p>

<p>Ah, I see you have indepedently re-created Heresiarch's Highly<br />
Excellent Pizza Rejuvenation Method. It is one of those rare instances<br />
when leftovers are sometimes even better than the fresh stuff.</p>

<p>abi @ 107: <i>"The minute this topic, or this thread becomes a stick<br />
to beat other people rather than an exploration of our own values and<br />
discoveries, I am going to go out and buy the cheapest gimcrack piece<br />
of junk manufactured halfway across the world and stick it directly in<br />
landfill. Still in its indestructible plastic wrapping. Unless it has<br />
lead in it, in which case I will open it up and lick it first."</i></p>

<p>Hee! And seconded.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:00 AM by heresiarch&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258229</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 09:00:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #114 from Caroline</title>
         <description>comment from Caroline on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emily H. @ 83: typing from here in the Triangle, I completely get<br />
you. I had a choice between here and Boston for grad school; I chose to<br />
come here because of the program, the research, and the advisors, but<br />
some days I wish I'd chosen Boston because of the lifestyle. I have to<br />
get in my car to do <i>anything</i>.  (I grew up here.  Instead of making me used to it, it's just made me more fed up.)</p>

<p>I had one friend, well-intentioned, comment that maybe real<br />
commitment to environmentalism meant taking the bus even if it was<br />
inconvenient. I appreciate the thought, but I'm inclined to think that<br />
the better thing to do is to work to make public transportation an<br />
actually viable option. (Also, "inconvenient" here means something<br />
quite different than it does in a city with a functioning transit<br />
program. Here, it means "get to work late if at all, stand on the side<br />
of a busy highway with no bench or shelter because bus stops are signs<br />
stuck in the ground, and walk half a mile in the dark along a curvy,<br />
hilly road with no sidewalk or shoulder to reach the stop." The walking<br />
in the dark is also a problem because no one else walks anywhere, which<br />
leaves me vulnerable to assault when I'm a lone female on an empty,<br />
dark road. Yes, as you say, I've been told You Can Do It If You Just<br />
Try Harder. Argh.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:20 AM by Caroline&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258230</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #115 from Hilary Hertzoff</title>
         <description>comment from Hilary Hertzoff on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding mp3 players...I have a Treo 700p. Takes 4Gb SD cards full<br />
of music and I have two programs installed that will play any format<br />
I've ever come across. It also doubles as a phone and personal<br />
organizer so I don't have to buy/carry around several different<br />
gadgets. Solar chargers aren't in my price range yet, but they're<br />
getting there.</p>

<p>My grandmother had a treadle machine. It was given to her nurse when<br />
she passed away and while I would have liked it, I think she probably<br />
made better use of it. I've got my mother's sewing machine, that's<br />
currently being serviced because I want to start sewing again. It's<br />
electric and older than me, but could probably be operated manually in<br />
a pinch.</p>

<p>I bought a granny cart when I moved to this apartment. Mostly I use<br />
it to move stuff from my apartment to the garage and vice versa, but I<br />
have in a pinch walked to the supermarket with it. It's not an ideal<br />
walk - there's a rather steep hill in the way - and I usually do the<br />
grocery shopping on my way home from work or I'd do it more often.</p>

<p>I've attended a number of book and library conferences, and have an<br />
amazing number of bags I got as giveaways which I use for grocery<br />
shopping. Sometimes I'll forget to bring them back down to the car, but<br />
I'm getting better at that.</p>

<p>I had a bicycle when I first moved here, but it's very hilly (and<br />
I'm not in great shape) and my route to work is along a street with<br />
heavy traffic that I don't feel comfortable biking. I should walk more<br />
often but that's a time thing rather than a lack of desire. I'm<br />
terrible about getting out of the house in the morning.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:45 AM by Hilary Hertzoff&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258231</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #116 from Diatryma</title>
         <description>comment from Diatryma on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who talks to me for a while knows that a great many barriers<br />
between what I want to do and what I do are in my head. I think that<br />
user-serviceable appliances are wonderful, but it takes a certain<br />
amount of daring to open up the first one. When my printer stopped<br />
pulling pages in, it took me a while to stop being angry, look up what<br />
the problem might be, and then spend an afternoon taking it apart, over<br />
and over and over. It took some Krazy Glue, some rubber cement, and a<br />
hairpin, and I have one screw I forgot to put back, but it works now. <br /><br />
The only way I could do it was by saying, "I bought a printer six years<br />
ago. I have not gotten a hundred dollars out of the printer. The<br />
printer has turned into a doorstop. There is nothing I can do that can<br />
make it less useful. Let's see if I can turn a doorstop into a printer."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:55 AM by Diatryma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258232</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #117 from Carrie S.</title>
         <description>comment from Carrie S. on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Apparently, the first phase is that you leave your reusable bag<br />
at home. The second phase is that you leave it in your car. The third<br />
phase is when the bag finally makes it into the store.</em></p>

<p>My string bags make it into the car about two times out of three,<br />
with the ratio going up as I get used to having them. (The hurdle there<br />
was deciding that no, I didn't really need to net the damn things<br />
myself and could just <em>buy</em> a couple.)  But once they're in the car, they get used even if someone has to go back out for them.</p>

<p><em>They don’t zig-zag, they don’t embroider, but they are immortal, and they break the dependence on the power grid.</em></p>

<p>It seems to me that there's no reason a treadle-powered machine<br />
couldn't zig-zag; the switch on many older electric machines (my<br />
mother's, for instance) is purely mechanical. Plus, I'll bet you could<br />
retrofit a normally electric machine to treadle power, in that there's<br />
that wheel on the side that you can hand-crank for extra precision.</p>

<p><em>The mooncup and its ilk</em></p>

<p>There's someone out there making reusable natural-sponge tampons.<br />
They're not immortal, but they last for 20 or 30 uses, so I'm told,<br />
which is vastly better than the one-use cotton tampon.</p>

<p><em>I also prefer watches with dials.</em></p>

<p>My current watch has a face that was designed in approximately 1911,<br />
and I didn't wear a watch for years because I couldn't find one with<br />
the face I liked. And it's all mechanical, albeit self-winding; if <a>the Change</a> hits, I'll at least know what time it is...</p>

<p><em>My serger, which I rarely use and which really ought to be a candidate for disposal</em></p>

<p>If you're really looking to get rid of it and it still functions,<br />
I'll happily pay for shipping. At the moment I have three sewing<br />
machines in my house and none of them work; the theoretically most<br />
easily fixable is only missing a presser foot, but it's a very old<br />
machine and the feet aren't made anymore. And I've got all this fabric<br />
sitting around wanting to be my summer wardrobe. The one skirt I did by<br />
hand for winter was more than enough.</p>

<p><em>Going meta for a moment, I'd say that -skills- are very much one<br />
of the deep value items. I'm always surprised to find people don't all<br />
have some rough idea of how to weave, or make paper (or ink), or<br />
sew[0], or butcher, (more recent) how electricity works, even in<br />
general terms, or all sorts of remarkably basic ideas that underly<br />
modern technology.</em></p>

<p>That's one of the things about hanging out with SCAdians--if The End<br />
Of Civilization happens in a reasonably survivable way (e.g. not by<br />
nuclear exchange), we're gonna be useful to have around. I can take a<br />
sheep and end up with clothes; they might not be great at first, but<br />
they'll be warm. And I have friends with similar skills down to "I can<br />
take iron ore and end up with a knife". Handy.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:55 AM by Carrie S.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258233</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #118 from James Davis Nicoll</title>
         <description>comment from James Davis Nicoll on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Looking at a world where the economy is probably going to be<br />
tightening up for a while, I find myself drawn to things with deep<br />
value, things a little less dependent on the state of our technology<br />
and shipping infrastructure1 to build and repair.</i></p>

<p>Won't that make the economic crisis that much worse? It's all well<br />
and fine to say "Well, I won't buy a new car every time I run out of<br />
gas" but what of the unfortunates languishing on the assembly lines?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:55 AM by James Davis Nicoll&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258234</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #119 from John Hawkes-Reed</title>
         <description>comment from John Hawkes-Reed on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abi @ 107: Absolutely. Thirded.</p>

<p>It seems to me that a lot of this stuff is sold in some quarters as<br />
a quasi-religion: Consume less and smell more! Sackcloth and ashes are<br />
good for the skin! Your car kills kittens!</p>

<p>On the other hand, keeping your kit working for longer than it<br />
should can be fine fun and a route into finding out how it all works.<br />
My own excuse is growing up on a farm with parents/grandparents for<br />
whom 'make do and mend' and 'dig for victory' were still maxims to live<br />
by.</p>

<p>(Which doesn't quite explain how I got into the toxic and ephemeral<br />
computing industry, but there you go. Or maybe it does. Anyway.)</p>

<p>Heresiarch @ 99: I think what has happened is that the tech used for<br />
designing objects has got a lot better. There was the old Colin Chapman<br />
line 'If it doesn't break it wasn't light enough, if it breaks it was<br />
too light'. Which is fine for Lotus drivers but NBG for the rest of us.</p>

<p><br />
If some careful simulation and/or finite element analysis can make a<br />
VW Golf lighter and stiffer, then it'll use less fuel and less steel.<br />
At the expense of any road accident worth the name wrecking the car,<br />
but rather that than it all going a bit pea-in-a-bucket for the poor<br />
passengers. Old Land-Rovers are tough, but you wouldn't want to shunt<br />
one properly.</p>

<p>I can't help thinking 'Foundation and Empire' here.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:56 AM by John Hawkes-Reed&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258235</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #120 from Jen B.</title>
         <description>comment from Jen B. on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I switched to the reusable grocery bags a few months ago. I love<br />
them, but forget to bring them about half the time. I have taken to<br />
just buying more of the reusables when I forget my own and then giving<br />
them away to friends.</p>

<p>I really like my Divacup but can only use it around the home. I just<br />
can't get the knack of emptying and replacing in a public restroom. I<br />
got mine from <a href="http://www.lunapads.com/" rel="nofollow">lunapads</a>,<br />
but use their reusable pads (and panties! With protection all built<br />
in!) much more often. Incredibly comfortable. They have a nice little<br />
program where you can also send menstrual products to girls in Africa<br />
so they don't miss school.</p>

<p><b>Carrie S.</b>: I believe <a href="http://jadeandpearl.com/catalog/index.php" rel="nofollow">these</a> are the sponges you were referring to.  Lunapads used to sell them through their site but don't any longer.  Not sure why.</p>

<p><br /><br />
Any suggestions on beginner fountain pens?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:13 AM by Jen B.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258236</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #121 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>#101 ::: Daniel Boone [on wool blankets/dry cleaning]</em></p>

<p>Beautifully put. I have a similar ongoing battle with people who<br />
claim silk must be dry-cleaned. Tell that to several thousand years of<br />
Mandarins. The solution, as you've mentioned, is to put an easily<br />
washed baffle (often cotton) between the oil-or-grime producing<br />
skin/environment and the wool or silk.</p>

<p>This is one of the points of underwear. My grandmother's generation<br />
wore cotton underwear, and slips, and would hang clothes to "air" after<br />
a day's wearing. Heavily-constructed items like wool suits would<br />
receive a gentle but thorough brushing. Laundry was tedious enough,<br />
even with a good well close to hand. Dry cleaning not an option.</p>

<p>The other factor is that we've conditioned ourselves not to have<br />
smelly bodies, and go to great lengths not to "cause offense". The U.S.<br />
has plenty of water (not to mention deodorants and questionable<br />
antiperspirants). Or at least we think we do. This is a major component<br />
of culture shock with travel to third-world countries. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:37 AM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #122 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>#117 ::: Carrie S.</em><br /><br />
<em>It seems to me that there's no reason a treadle-powered machine<br />
couldn't zig-zag; the switch on many older electric machines (my<br />
mother's, for instance) is purely mechanical. Plus, I'll bet you could<br />
retrofit a normally electric machine to treadle power, in that there's<br />
that wheel on the side that you can hand-crank for extra precision.</em></p>

<p>Unfortunately not. There has to be a groove beside the hand wheel<br />
(which usually has a rounded edge) for the belt to nestle in, and the<br />
machine head has to be cast with channels for the belt. Adding an<br />
exposed belt with enough tension to cup around the exterior of the hand<br />
wheel would be dangerous, even if you religiously wore a cap or hair<br />
net.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:39 AM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258238</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 10:39:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #123 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: natural sponge tampons<br /><br />
You can also cut cheap manufactured sponges into chunky cylinders that<br />
work quite well. I soaked mine in vinegar between times and never had<br />
problems in a couple decades' worth of use. They lasted considerably<br />
longer than the sea sponges, and no one saw the garish colors they came<br />
in.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:39 AM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258239</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #124 from Carrie S.</title>
         <description>comment from Carrie S. on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Unfortunately not. There has to be a groove beside the hand<br />
wheel (which usually has a rounded edge) for the belt to nestle in, and<br />
the machine head has to be cast with channels for the belt. Adding an<br />
exposed belt with enough tension to cup around the exterior of the hand<br />
wheel would be dangerous, even if you religiously wore a cap or hair<br />
net.</em></p>

<p>I was thinking along the lines of replacing that wheel entirely with<br />
one that had spokes (for a more chain-like belt) or the appropriate<br />
groove. It'd be a pain, but once done it might work.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:50 AM by Carrie S.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #125 from Emily</title>
         <description>comment from Emily on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>A related question (I am full of them today): what *is* proper<br />
distance for a bike? I see them all the time, but all I know is that<br />
they're very skinny cars, and it makes me so nervous passing them<br />
because it's rude somehow.</i></p>

<p>Proper passing distance is "do not squash the biker" or 3 feet. Some<br />
localities have a law for the 3 feet. I find it very unnerving when<br />
it's safe for a driver to pass me and they don't. If it's not safe to<br />
pass me, and I think that cars ought to, I'll pull over. I've got a<br />
right to use the road, not a right to *block* the road.</p>

<p>Proper biking distance is "one that means *you* do not collapse in a<br />
heap at the end of the day". For some people, this is 1 mile. For<br />
randonneurs, it tends to be in the 200-400km range, but most<br />
randonneurs will cheerfully tell you they're crazy (and if you let<br />
them, will then tell you *all* about the last bike part they broke,<br />
their favorite toys, their favorite food, and the best way to make your<br />
bike do silly distances). I am pretty ordinary, with my daily bike<br />
trips being 2 miles or less. Running a loop route usually means I go<br />
6-8 miles.</p>

<p><i>Yes, as you say, I've been told You Can Do It If You Just Try Harder.</i></p>

<p>No. You can do it if you are in an appropriate enviroment, know what<br />
tools are needed, and have good support. I *can* get around by bike in<br />
Central PA... and I'm not willing to indulge in the level of try harder<br />
required to be without a car there. No sidewalks, which means if a hill<br />
is too steep for me to manage I can't bail and walk safely. Often,<br />
major bridges are motor vehicle only. Limited route selection. Very few<br />
roads have a shoulder. Lanes are narrow. And the road layout is<br />
challenging - very fun for low traffic and unholy hell given the normal<br />
traffic levels. Bike shops mostly think that bikes are for racing, not<br />
for getting groceries.</p>

<p>Instead, I live in Madison where things are far more manageable.<br />
There are sidewalks, and the roads are mostly wide enough that a car<br />
can pass me safely even if there's not a bike lane. I can *walk* to a<br />
bike shop if I have a problem I don't know how to fix or if I need a<br />
doohickey Right Now. And there will be a bike shop within walking<br />
distance of any place I go normally.</p>

<p>I tend to class the Just Try Harder group as misogynistic clowns and<br />
ignore them (and IME, if you present as female, there *will* be much<br />
rougher treatment than if you present as male). Their contact with<br />
reality tends to be tenuous. If you must deal with one, I find a strong<br />
dose of reality tends to make them be quiet. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 11:09 AM by Emily&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #126 from John Hawkes-Reed</title>
         <description>comment from John Hawkes-Reed on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emily @ 125: Yikes. No wonder US bikers think us Euros have it easy.</p>

<p>Here (the UK) drivers are <em>supposed</em> to give a cyclist as much room as a small car. </p>

<p>Personally, I tend to ride about a third of the way out into the<br />
carriageway. Then the driver has to make a positive decision to avoid<br />
me when overtaking. If you ride tucked into the side of the road, yon<br />
car-driver won't get over and you'll feel a wing-mirror brushing your<br />
elbow.</p>

<p>Long hair, riding w/o a helmet and throwing in the odd wobble will also make the average car-pilot carefully avoid you.</p>

<p>I'm aware that such (Highway Code mandated) behaviour will get me killed in short order in the US.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 11:36 AM by John Hawkes-Reed&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258242</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #127 from Carrie S.</title>
         <description>comment from Carrie S. on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm so glad it's getting warm enough that I can ride my bike again<br />
(as soon as I have the back wheel looked at); I lost a good two months<br />
of biking weather last fall to an unfortunate encounter with a woman<br />
who either didn't see me, thought I had a Stop sign too, or assumed I<br />
had to yield to her because I was on a bike. I sprained my back, which<br />
pretty much put an end to biking for four months or so, and then it was<br />
winter--and having given myself bronchitis biking when it was too cold<br />
once, I'm not anxious to repeat the experience.</p>

<p>Pittsburgh is not a very bike-friendly city*, what with the hills<br />
and the narrow windy streets and the bad weather in winter; I can get<br />
to work and back because it's one of the few long stretches of<br />
relatively flat in the city, but I don't blame anyone who doesn't want<br />
to try it, even if they're reasonably able-bodied.</p>

<p><em>I've got a right to use the road, not a right to *block* the road.</em></p>

<p>One of the few times I've been yelled at was when a driver refused<br />
to pass me despite my doing everything possible to safely allow him to;<br />
the guy behind him, who had perforce been traveling at bike pace,<br />
called me something that our respective vectors thankfully rendered<br />
incomprehensible.</p>

<p>* This problem is not made better by the many bikers who seem to<br />
assume they are fast-moving pedestrians: going up on the sidewalk when<br />
it's convenient (or riding on the sidewalk most of the time), ignoring<br />
traffic lights, failing to signal turns, etc etc. If they don't want to<br />
wear helmets, that is not my problem; their skulls, their skills, their<br />
issue. But it'd be nice if they didn't make it so that drivers assume a<br />
person on a bike is a dangerous loose cannon.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 11:58 AM by Carrie S.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #128 from fidelio</title>
         <description>comment from fidelio on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#120--Most of the large pen manufacturers have lines that they<br />
usually refer to as student or school pens. Pelikan has the Pelikano<br />
and Future, Lamy the Safari, Waterman the Reflex and Phileas, Caran<br />
d'Ache the Primo, Parker the Vector, Frontier, and 45, Cross the ATX<br />
and Century. There are others as well--Rotring's great strength and<br />
fame is pens for drafting work, but they make good writing pens as<br />
well, and if you're willing to go from the under-$30 range to the<br />
under-$60 range there's an even wider number of good basic pens.</p>

<p>I haven't tried all of these, but I have tried several of them, and<br />
they seem to be good, functional pens that don't leak* easily. It's<br />
possible to use many of them with cartridges, or with the appropriate<br />
(for that model) refilling mechanisms (I happen to be allergic to the<br />
bladder type--we just can't seem to get along--but the piston styles<br />
seem to be pretty good). it's also possible to refill the (supposedly)<br />
disposable cartridges, but you need something like an eyedropper or a<br />
syringe to so it, and I'd advise working over the sink.</p>

<p>My favorite place to shop is <a href="http://www.montgomerypens.com/search_results.asp?subcategory=1&amp;sort_by_price=low" rel="nofollow">Montgomery Pens</a>, the online arm of the Montgomery Stationery Store of Manhattan and Brooklyn. Other good places are <a>Colorado Pen Direct</a>, <a href="http://www.fountainpenhospital.com/" rel="nofollow">Fountain Pen Hospital</a>, <a href="http://www.pendemonium.com/index.htm" rel="nofollow">Pendemonium</a>, and <a href="http://www.swisherpens.com/" rel="nofollow">Swisher Pens</a>.</p>

<p>Student pens tend to be fairly durable, since their expected<br />
environments include places like book bags and backpacks. They just<br />
aren't made with the exotic materials and fanciful details you see in<br />
the high-end models. My own philosphy is that company that can't make a<br />
good basic pen probably can't make a good one, period.</p>

<p>*Cheap Shaeffer cartridge pens, I'm looking at you. If these people can do it, what's stopping you?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 12:32 PM by fidelio&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #129 from fidelio</title>
         <description>comment from fidelio on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, <a href="http://www.coloradopen.com/" rel="nofollow">Colorado Pen Direct</a>. Sorry about that.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 12:34 PM by fidelio&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258245</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #130 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rather than fountain pens, I ended up using drafting pens, until I stopped being able to write for more than a minute-or-so.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:08 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258246</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #131 from Julie L.</title>
         <description>comment from Julie L. on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neotoma @79: <i>Try finding resole-able shoes. They aren't common at all anymore, especially for women.</i></p>

<p>Yes and no-- if small local shoe-repair shops can be found, they can<br />
attempt to resole anything you bring them, although they may not always<br />
be successful and the new sole may have a very different texture than<br />
the old one... my one attempt in that direction was disappointing (they<br />
replaced a worn-out rubberized moccasin-style sole with a slippery<br />
rigid leather one), but I mention it anyway out of<br />
support-small-local-businesses principle.</p>

<p>IME true resoleability is mostly brand-dependent, wrt whether the<br />
shoe manufacturer has made some of their own original parts available.<br />
I've had excellent results from mailing various Clarks and Rockports to<br />
<a href="http://www.resole.com/ra-services.shtml" rel="nofollow">this place</a>, both my husband's and my own; the one exception has been a pair of cork-based Clark's sandals.</p>

<p>For the truly intrepid, there's the possibility of learning to make<br />
one's own shoes. There are various books and websites on the subject;<br />
many of the latter are SCA-based, but I mostly figure that shoes is<br />
shoes. An astonishing array of leather scraps can be found on eBay,<br />
such as the square yard or so of waterproof Timberland which (to my<br />
shame) has been languishing in my closet for the past few years since I<br />
bought it. At the least, however, such references also contain info<br />
which could be adapted for DIY shoe repair ("Barge Cement" at your<br />
local hardware store seems to be the glue of choice).</p>

<p>Diatryma @90: <i>Oh, fountain pens. I had one from about freshman<br />
year of high school to senior year of college-- the cap fragmented, and<br />
I don't know if it's the kind of thing that can be replaced</i></p>

<p>Contact the manufacturer and ask if you can buy a new one from them;<br />
even if it's not a model in current production, they may still have<br />
spare parts in stock. If you're not sure what the model is, you may<br />
have to mail the pen to them for identification, but the worst that can<br />
happen is that you'll have spent the postage. (Or, I suppose, your<br />
mathom drawer will have divested an unused/unusable pen.)</p>

<p><i>Speaking of, anyone like Noodler's Nightshade? Too red for me. I wanted *purple*.</i></p>

<p>Haven't tried it, but based on the samples <a href="http://www.luxurybrandsusa.com/noodlers/samples.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, it doesn't look particularly purple to me either-- which is the new "purple" you've just ordered?</p>

<p>Private Reserve's "Tanzanite" is rather nice, imho-- it's been a<br />
while since I've refilled a fresh pen with it, but iitc it's slightly<br />
redder than the sample shown <a href="http://www.pendemonium.com/ink_private.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a>. <a href="http://www.pendemonium.com/images/inks/ink_color_charts.pdf" rel="nofollow">This multibrand chart</a> may also be of interest.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:08 PM by Julie L.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #132 from Madison Guy</title>
         <description>comment from Madison Guy on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I’m still using the same fountain pen I bought in 1992. The guy<br />
sitting next to me isn’t even using the same ballpoint he had in<br />
January.</i></p>

<p>Me too, exactly -- a next-to-the-top-of-the-line Pelikan bought at<br />
Pearl Paint in New York in 1992, when the brand still offered good<br />
lifetime value at fair prices. Now they're out and out luxury products.<br />
I hate disposables. To get me to switch, you'd have to pry my beloved<br />
Pelikan from my cold, dead hand.</p>

<p>Also dislike disposable computers, which is what these necessary evils all are these days. My handheld <a href="http://letterfromhere.blogspot.com/2007/08/why-cant-steve-jobs-make-iphone-at.html" rel="nofollow">Psion Series 5</a><br />
and I have been inseparable for more than 10 years. (The screen cable<br />
-- hard to fix -- went bad on the first one after three years, and I<br />
bought a replacement Psion on eBay. Since then I've opened and closed<br />
it very gently, and no problem.) </p>

<p>I take it everywhere, it has a cramped but real and very usable<br />
keyboard, it's instant-on because all the software is in ROM,<br />
rechargeable AA batteries last far longer than any laptop. Has a full<br />
MS Office-compatible software suite, but I no longer have a Windows 98<br />
machine to sync to for the conversion. These days I just use it to<br />
capture keystrokes when I don't want to lug a laptop around. Upload as<br />
text files via a card reader to my Mac. Simply one of the most elegant<br />
computers ever made.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:29 PM by Madison Guy&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #133 from Lee</title>
         <description>comment from Lee on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caroline, #114: <i>I had one friend, well-intentioned, comment that<br />
maybe real commitment to environmentalism meant taking the bus even if<br />
it was inconvenient.</i></p>

<p>First off, as you point out, "inconvenient" is one thing, while "dangerous" is quite another. <br /><br />
Secondly, my response to that comment would have been that a <i>real</i> commitment to environmentalism involves working to make greener behavior easy enough that it doesn't <i>have</i><br />
to be inconvenient, because as long as it's inconvenient the only<br />
people who will do it are the ones you don't need to convince... and<br />
how many letters have <i>you</i>* written to the City Council about the need for viable bus service in the last year? </p>

<p>* That is, the person who made the original statement. </p>

<p>Carrie, #117: If the Change hits, knowing what time it is will become a lot less important. ;-) </p>

<p>James, #118: What we're probably looking at here, in the long run,<br />
might be called the Anti-Industrial Revolution. Whether that's the most<br />
accurate description or not, it's fairly clear that there <i>is</i><br />
going to be some significant economic disruption, no matter whether<br />
it's the result of people moving back toward longer-usage items or of<br />
people simply no longer being able to afford the throwaway consumerist<br />
culture and not buying things at all. Eventually things will shake out<br />
-- but the shape of the culture we end up with will probably be as<br />
different from what we're used to today as the shape of Western<br />
European culture in 1850 differed from that of 1750. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:35 PM by Lee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #134 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven't finished reading, but to drop in a thought before it gets any further from the source...</p>

<p>#30, C Wingate - </p>

<p>I'm currently saving to pay for a timing belt replacement on my<br />
current Toyota (a 1996 model). I've participated in the changing of the<br />
timing chain on a 76 Toyota, and done a lot of wrenching myself on that<br />
same car. Heck, I replaced the rear brakes on the current car the last<br />
time it needed doing. But an engine task that starts with removing the<br />
passenger side wheel and proceeds to removing an engine mount, with<br />
potentially catastrophic consequences if you get it wrong?* I'm paying<br />
someone.</p>

<p>We did buy a 1976 Celica, the car both drove while we were dating in<br />
the 90s** to rebuild. If we can make it reliable enough, there's a good<br />
chance it will become my daily driver.</p>

<p>*My memory says that getting a timing chain right is easier than<br />
getting the belt right sounds. I could be misremembering, though.</p>

<p>**He had a 75 Celica when I met him, and I ended up buying a 76 in<br />
exactly the same color. It was disgustingly cute, though it was a<br />
practical choice as much as anything.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:37 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #135 from Susan</title>
         <description>comment from Susan on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>General announcement: I am not planning to get rid of my serger<br />
anytime soon. Thanks to everyone who's emailed to ask for it, but<br />
"candidate for disposal" does not imply "this week" or even "this<br />
month" or any other very-near-future timeframe.</p>

<p>Even after yesterday's discussion here I managed to forget to take<br />
my recyclable bag to the grocery store to shop. I feel like such an<br />
idiot about this.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:41 PM by Susan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258251</link>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:41:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #136 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding bicycling - </p>

<p>I'm currently a bit frustrated by it because I live five miles from<br />
my work. Only five miles! In metro Atlanta! I could bicycle. But the<br />
first half-mile is a winding road full of blind curves, with no<br />
shoulder much of the time, much less a sidewalk, and I'm just plain too<br />
chicken to ride in the road.</p>

<p>This isn't helped by the fact that there is a large segment of<br />
pro-bicycle bloggers who seem to think that this is a good argument to<br />
convince people to bicycle in the roadways*:</p>

<p><i>Bicycles are vehicular traffic and have a right to be on the<br />
roadway. In point of fact, they should be on the roadway, not on the<br />
sidwalks. Sidewalks are for pedestrians.</i> (I buy that.)</p>

<p><i>Auto drivers don't know how to drive safely around bicyclists in most of the U.S.</i> (I agree.)</p>

<p><i>Therefore, more bicyclists should ride on the roadway to educate drivers on how to not kill bicyclists.</i></p>

<p>I just can't see how that doesn't amount to a segment of bicyclists martyring themselves for the cause.  So I drive.</p>

<p>*"This" is my made up summary of the arguments as I see them, not a direct quote of anyone, heaven forbid.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:47 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258252</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #137 from Adrian Smith</title>
         <description>comment from Adrian Smith on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Chu@111: <i>We, as a society, haven't made maintainability a must have feature in our electronics.</i></p>

<p>I'm not sure that's a decision we could have made. The way I<br />
understood it was that Moore's Law itself pretty much requires planned<br />
obsolescence to operate - if a fair number of us don't replace all our<br />
shiny at regular intervals there just won't be the money to keep the<br />
whole thing moving forward. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  1:50 PM by Adrian Smith&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258253</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #138 from ethan</title>
         <description>comment from ethan on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susan #135: <em>Even after yesterday's discussion here I managed to<br />
forget to take my recyclable bag to the grocery store to shop. I feel<br />
like such an idiot about this.</em></p>

<p>You and me both.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:03 PM by ethan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258254</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #139 from Rikibeth</title>
         <description>comment from Rikibeth on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen B 120: best method I've found for emptying/replacing the Diva in<br />
a public restroom: dampen a paper towel before entering the stall and<br />
bring it in with you.</p>

<p>Of course, if you're in one of those restrooms with only hot air<br />
dryers, best method is to hope you haven't reached capacity yet. Even<br />
on my heaviest days I can go 8 hours before having to worry about<br />
overflow, but I'm aware that there are people for whom this won't work.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:13 PM by Rikibeth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:13:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #140 from Velma</title>
         <description>comment from Velma on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen B. at 120: Many of my friends swear by the Waterman Phileas as a<br />
good starter fountain pen. Do you like heavy pens, or light ones? If<br />
heavy, I would recommend a Sheaffer Prelude or Javelin; for lighter<br />
ones... hmmm. I migh suggest a vintage Esterbrook. They're light,<br />
durable, and have interchangeable nibs.</p>

<p>Abi: I've still got the second Pelikan M200 that I bought in 1993,<br />
but the oldest pen in my collection is close to sixty years old. It's<br />
had its sac replaced once, and its nib customized for me, but other<br />
than that, it's the same pen it was when Virginia Siegler bought it<br />
(that's the name engraved on it). I suspect my niece will inherit it,<br />
and it will still be in working order.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:16 PM by Velma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #141 from EClaire</title>
         <description>comment from EClaire on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is something that we've been discussing at my house recently.<br />
We moved from Portland, where public transit is easy, grocery stores<br />
were within walking distance, and it was possible to eat a diet that<br />
was fresh and (fairly) local. Now we live in Central Illinois, where<br />
public transit is non-existant, the nearest grocery store is 10 miles<br />
away, and if we want fresh local food, we best start a garden<br />
(broccoli, tomato and pepper seeds already started, actually). In<br />
addition, we're starting a family, and getting to hear "You'll be<br />
amazed how much stuff you'll need for a baby!" Well, we NEED a car<br />
seat, some way to carry the baby, clothes and diapers. Everything else<br />
just makes life easier (and more expensive and more crowded). We're<br />
currently in the middle of clearing out my dad's house, as mentioned<br />
previously, so I'm not really interested in bringing more stuff into<br />
the house. Moreover, I'm tired of feeling pressured to buy more<br />
disposable stuff all the time. <br /><br />
I quit my previous job in retail because I was tired of selling people<br />
useless gadgets. You know the sort of thing that makes people go "Ooh,<br />
that's handy!" and then never take it out of the drawer once they get<br />
it home? I wanted to be doing something that was actually worthwhile,<br />
or better yet, actually creating something that people could use. So<br />
I'm trying to learn to sew, I'm starting my first ever vegetable<br />
garden, and I'm debating whether I'm willing to invest the time<br />
necessary to have chickens. I don't know that I want to move off the<br />
grid entirely, but I would like to stop being driven to consume endless<br />
quantities of lackluster goods.<br /><br />
Oh, and tankless water heaters won't work if you have a lot of natural<br />
gas in your well water. I pushed for one, but apparently, being able to<br />
light your tap water on fire makes it incompatible with the high<br />
pressure heating? Who knew?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:22 PM by EClaire&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #142 from Matt</title>
         <description>comment from Matt on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I am 100% on board with the idea of buying durable goods that<br />
are actually, you know, *durable,* as someone professionally involved<br />
in the renewable energy sector, I would argue for the fact that<br />
electricity use in and of itself is not unsustainable. If an electrical<br />
appliance can be designed to be as durable as a manually operated<br />
version of the same thing without an undue load associated with it, I'm<br />
generally onboard. At the same time, though, when a design tweak can<br />
offer better results than the application of electricity- passive<br />
solar, skylighting, etc- then obviously I'd take that tack first.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:36 PM by Matt&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:36:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #143 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graydon: I might be among the first approximation, but I'm strange.<br />
I have seed corn, animals (horses, dogs and chickens), some access to<br />
acreage; know where there's permanent water and a place to hie me to<br />
until things settle down.</p>

<p>I have firearms, so meat is findable while food grows.</p>

<p>And I have a whole lot of those skills someone upthread (ethan?) was<br />
amazed everyone doesn't. My thought when watching "Castaway" was, "he<br />
didn't read the right books as a kid."</p>

<p>If we move back to SLO, no problem. We have farmer friends (and old<br />
farmers too, Webb is in his early seventies; he knows how to make do<br />
without the most modern of trappings. </p>

<p>Since I don't think the machine culture will just end, but break<br />
down in bits and pieces, I figure those of us who have skills/knowledge<br />
can trade them in for food.</p>

<p>I can tinker, do some smithing, reap corn, preserve foods, refine<br />
salt, cure meats, tan hides, work wood, maintain weapons, sharpen<br />
tools, plan sanitation, milk cows, grow crops, build walls, and I don't<br />
know what all else.</p>

<p>So, barring a Lucifer's Hammer sort of end to civilization, I think<br />
I'll come through it all right. Add the skills my extended<br />
family/friends have, and it might even be a reasonably comfortable one.</p>

<p>Now I have to catch up with all the posts I know have been made<br />
since I wrote this last night (our net was down, so I have been unable<br />
to post it).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:45 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #144 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slowly making my way through the comments...</p>

<p>#91, Daniel Klein -</p>

<p>Oh, I had an old model "selfwinding" watch that I loved until it<br />
died. It was a Timex, so it wasn't repairable. I'm terrible about<br />
getting a battery replaced when it goes dead in a watch - I much prefer<br />
something that is self-sustaining or at least stemwound. I am<br />
definitely tempted by the new quartz watches that apparently charge a<br />
capacitor based on your movement, but the manufacturers seem to be<br />
aware that this is possibly the last watch you'll buy, and price them<br />
accordingly. I haven't convinced myself that I need a watch badly<br />
enough for the initial outlay of a long-term investment. </p>

<p>A related pet-peeve is the apparent fascination with<br />
battery-operated clocks that have (battery-driven) pendulums. I went<br />
into a clock/watch shop (one of those annoying ones at the mall) and<br />
while I waited for the battery in my watch to be changed, I noticed<br />
that all of the pendulum clocks on the wall were silent. As I paid my<br />
bill, I asked, "Why don't the clocks tick?"</p>

<p>The look I got suggested I'd asked why they didn't sing and dance.  "Tick?"</p>

<p>"Yes, tick.  Why don't the clocks tick?"</p>

<p>"They're quartz," came the answer, as if I were a bit slow.</p>

<p>I was so flabbergasted all I could say was, "Oh, okay."</p>

<p>#116, Diatryma - </p>

<p><i>"I bought a printer six years ago. I have not gotten a hundred<br />
dollars out of the printer. The printer has turned into a doorstop.<br />
There is nothing I can do that can make it less useful. Let's see if I<br />
can turn a doorstop into a printer."</i></p>

<p>Brilliant.  And a train of thought I should try more often myself.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  2:46 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #145 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#122, Carol Kimball - </p>

<p>I don't quite understand what you're saying about the belts in<br />
regard to converting an electric machine to treadle. I wouldn't bother<br />
with the conversion with many of the new machines, and the older ones<br />
that are worth converting often are belt-driven, with an external motor<br />
and exposed belt. I'd expect converting them would be a matter of<br />
setting it into a treadle table and finding the right belt. Am I not<br />
thinking of it correctly?</p>

<p>You're definitely right about belts being a hazard to hair, though<br />
it was my fingers that were most in danger around the belt-driven<br />
industrial sewing machines* I used. If you cupped your hand too far<br />
around the wheel, it was possible to get between the belt and the<br />
wheel. I managed to only give myself a good scare a few times before I<br />
learned how to do it right, but it's a risk.</p>

<p>*Speaking only of durability, these are the best candidates for<br />
conversion, though I don't know how hard they are to drive - a treadle<br />
might not be enough power to make one run even through light material.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:01 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #146 from R. Emrys</title>
         <description>comment from R. Emrys on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul Lalonde @ 94: We've been considering getting a real shoemaker<br />
for a while. Do you have any advice about how to find/identify a good<br />
one?</p>

<p>Lee @ 104: My parents are late adopters; I typed papers on a<br />
typewriter for most of my childhood, and finally an electric typewriter<br />
for the latter half of high school. I have not a shred of nostalgia for<br />
either of these devices. </p>

<p>Another good source of deep value items is Amish furniture stores.<br />
We discovered these when we went bed shopping last year. Our new<br />
four-poster is made of solid oak, and we know the name of the guy who<br />
built it. If our hypothetical grandkids snap one of the posts in 40<br />
years, someone will come to our house and fix it for free. The only way<br />
we'll ever need to replace it (for certain definitions of need) is if<br />
we actually save up the money for the canopy bed from the same store<br />
with secret compartments in the footboard. Apparently the Amish are<br />
very fond of secret compartments; who knew? Not that I blame them. If I<br />
can't have a bookcase that swings out to reveal a hidden layer, secret<br />
compartments in the bed are the next best thing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:17 PM by R. Emrys&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #147 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>#124 ::: Carrie S.</em></p>

<p><em>I was thinking along the lines of replacing that wheel entirely<br />
with one that had spokes (for a more chain-like belt) or the<br />
appropriate groove. It'd be a pain, but once done it might work.</em></p>

<p>If you're getting into machining, it'd be better to use a rat-tail<br />
file and make a groove for the belt on the left side (inside) of the<br />
hand wheel, and open up the head casing where the belt needs to pass.<br />
That runs the belt in the channel that was meant for it, directly<br />
around the flywheel for the treadle.</p>

<p>Far less tricky work, and most of the path of the belt is out of<br />
harm's way. Even with the 7-8" of "standard" exposed belt at the front<br />
right of the machine, any bit of thread, fabric, hair (!) that wafts<br />
over that way will get grabbed by the belt.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:33 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #148 from John Chu</title>
         <description>comment from John Chu on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrian Smith@137:<em>The way I understood it was that Moore's Law itself pretty much requires planned obsolescence to operate</em></p>

<p>Moore's Law says that transistor density doubles approximately every<br />
two years, period. (It's really Moore's Rule of Thumb.) It says nothing<br />
about how we should use those extra transistors per unit area. It<br />
doesn't even say that we should make use of those extra transistors per<br />
unit area.</p>

<p>Planned obsolescence is one way of getting people to replace what<br />
they already have. Coming up with something irresistably shiny is<br />
another way. Those are hardly the only two ways.</p>

<p>There's nothing about Moore's Law that prevents companies from<br />
making user serviceable products. e.g., give a useful user serviceable<br />
product, a company might make money selling upgrades.</p>

<p>However, if we, as a society, choose tightly integrated, sealed up<br />
packages over bulkier, more user accessible packages, then the products<br />
that sell will be ones that are harder to service.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:38 PM by John Chu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #149 from harthad</title>
         <description>comment from harthad on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, the project for African schoolgirls that Jen. B refers to in #120 is http://www.goods4girls.org/ </p>

<p>They offer a variety of links to make-it-yourself reusable menstrual pad instructions (under "Patterns"). </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:48 PM by harthad&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #150 from Jen B.</title>
         <description>comment from Jen B. on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rikibeth: It is more a problem of, um, re-insertion. There just<br />
isn’t enough room in the stalls where I work to be doing anything other<br />
than sitting or standing. And once you’ve dropped one in the toilet<br />
once or twice… I suppose the only answer is, “practice”. </p>

<p>Velma: I always use Pilot pens, so I suppose I would write with<br />
something light. I think what has kept me from fountain pens up until<br />
now has been the great variety: weight, materials, nibs, etc. I’ve just<br />
never known where to start. Of course, there is also the fear that I<br />
will break nibs left and right. </p>

<p>All the talk about the trend towards products which customers cannot fix themselves has put The Magnetic Fields’ <a href="http://www.stlyrics.com/songs/m/magneticfields5299/epitaphformyheart924152.html" rel="nofollow">Epitaph</a> For My <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9AiAAYYlZM" rel="nofollow">Heart</a> in my head.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:48 PM by Jen B.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #151 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>#145 ::: R. M. Koske </em> <br /><br />
<em>I don't quite understand what you're saying about the belts in<br />
regard to converting an electric machine to treadle. I wouldn't bother<br />
with the conversion with many of the new machines, and the older ones<br />
that are worth converting often are belt-driven, with an external motor<br />
and exposed belt. I'd expect converting them would be a matter of<br />
setting it into a treadle table and finding the right belt. </em> </p>

<p>I messed around trying to do a conversion for some time before<br />
finding the proper head, hence all the minutiae. The problem is that<br />
when a head is cast to accommodate an electrical motor (we're in the<br />
home versions here), things don't line up properly to run a belt down<br />
to the flywheel.</p>

<p>The old Singers I have that were made for either treadle or<br />
electricity are model 411G. The 401 (+) gear-drive series was an<br />
attempt to make an industrial machine that would appeal to the home<br />
market, and almost every home ec teacher in the country bought one. I<br />
can set the timing in about twenty minutes as perfectly as when it came<br />
from the factory. </p>

<p>An industrial is far more finely machined, has a more powerful motor<br />
set apart from the sewing business for greater torque, and is noisy and<br />
(to a dainty 50's housewife) ugly.</p>

<p>The 401s were almost as finely machined, but limited to the size of<br />
motor that could be put into the right side of the conventionally<br />
home-pretty case. </p>

<p>One of the advantages of using the treadle is that I no longer have<br />
thunder thighs. Though only about 110#, I can generate plenty of power<br />
with my quads, so I'd guess an industrial conversion would be fine. </p>

<p>Both my machines were electric set in a convertible head. The first<br />
arrived without those guts, so I immediately ordered and installed a<br />
wiring harness to get the light working again. In a power outage of<br />
several hours, I propped a mirror up and worked by ample reflected<br />
light.</p>

<p><br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  3:58 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #152 from Diatryma</title>
         <description>comment from Diatryma on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On fountain pens: I have a Waterman Phileas and the first time I<br />
used it... oh, yeah, not buying anything else. My handwriting has<br />
adapted to fountain pens; I am even less legible in ballpoint, and I<br />
once described a particularly bothersome professor as 'worse than<br />
pencil'. <br /><br />
Your handwriting may change as you get better at it; there are little<br />
weirdnesses to fountain pens. My mother can't write with one at all.<br /><br />
  <br /><br />
The Noodler's Violet Vote ink, formerly Iraqi Indigo, is an appropriate<br />
shade of purple, not as dark as I'd like (I'm waiting for the color<br />
that came out of purple Pilot Varsity disposables), and the pen feels<br />
flimsly after my darling Phileas, but it's good to have options. It's<br />
not perfect, but it's better than I was prepared for.</p>

<p>RM Koske, stupid brain tricks make me happy. Like I said, most of<br />
the problems I have with lifestyle changes are in my own brain. And I<br />
did manage to turn a doorstop into a printer! It works so well now, and<br />
every time I use it, I am happy because I fixed it. Yay go me!</p>

<p>I do have a thing with kitchen gadgets. Not a very big thing, but a<br />
thing. I bought a microplane zester to make Teresa's limeade (zester<br />
worked, alcohol didn't) and a food chopper to make heroin truffles (I<br />
am not hand-grinding an entire package of Oreos, no I am not). What<br />
I've learned from that is not to buy the cheapest appliance available.<br />
The five-dollar difference between the cheapest hand mixer and the<br />
second-cheapest is wide enough to burn out a motor on truffle filling.</p>

<p>I second the suggestion of fleecie blankets. My bed has flannel<br />
sheets, a cheap comforter, an afghan, and three layers of fleecies. Two<br />
and a half yards covers a double bed adequately.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  4:07 PM by Diatryma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #153 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Diatryma @152:</strong><br /><br />
<em>What I've learned from that is not to buy the cheapest appliance<br />
available. The five-dollar difference between the cheapest hand mixer<br />
and the second-cheapest is wide enough to burn out a motor on truffle<br />
filling.</em></p>

<p>My mother, in her aspect as a car mechanic, taught me to always buy the best tool that you can afford.</p>

<p>I haven't always followed her advice, and I haven't always regretted <em>not</em> following it, but I've never regretted following it, if you see what I mean.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  4:14 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #154 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#151 - Carol Kimball -</p>

<p>Ah, yes, I understand now.  Thank you.</p>

<p>*goes to look up Singer 401+. Drools a bit.* Wow, those are really<br />
affordable on ebay! Wouldn't I love something like that! My current<br />
machine is one I picked up from the dumpster at my apartment complex.<br />
It has all-metal parts inside and oiling points that look a great deal<br />
like the industrial machines did. It's a brand that didn't survive<br />
("Good Housekeeper") but it looks to be incredibly durable and I'll be<br />
using it for a long time, I hope.</p>

<p>Your talk of setting the timing yourself makes me wonder about the<br />
cost of a sewing machine repair class. (Speaking of skills with deep<br />
value.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  4:34 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #155 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>#154 ::: R. M. Koske </em><br /><br />
<em>*goes to look up Singer 401+. Drools a bit.* Wow, those are really affordable on ebay!</em></p>

<p>Over the years, I've owned maybe six or seven* of the 401 series and<br />
checked over a dozen or so, and never found one that didn't justify<br />
paying $200-250, and I see the current crop is substantially less than<br />
that. None of these appear to be convertible to treadle, no surprise -<br />
what to look for is the bobbin winder on top of the machine, and a<br />
rectangular hole (or maybe just knock out) at the base of the motor<br />
compartment.</p>

<p>* I currently own one 401A electric and two 411G treadles. The prices on ebay make me want to buy ALL OF THEM <em>(calms down a little)</em><br />
for the next crop of begging students/interns/clients. Okay, I can send<br />
them there. The heirs of those Home Ec teachers of yesteryear don't<br />
know what they've got.</p>

<p><em>Your talk of setting the timing yourself makes me wonder about<br />
the cost of a sewing machine repair class. (Speaking of skills with<br />
deep value.)</em></p>

<p>In a heartbeat! The old Singers have built-in guides that make<br />
setting the hook quick and easy. I took classes for timing both sewing<br />
machines and sergers a decade or so ago and have never regretted it,<br />
though I'll pay someone to do the serger. Other sewing machines are a<br />
little more fiddly to set, but still, no big deal. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  5:04 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #156 from Emily</title>
         <description>comment from Emily on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I'm just plain too chicken to ride in the road.</i></p>

<p>Sensible given what you describe. If the roads are laid out so that<br />
it's safe to walk and you've demonstrated to yourself by *doing* it...<br />
then you can probably ride a bike on them. With practice. I use<br />
pedestrians as a rough guideline: if a road isn't safe for pedestrians,<br />
it's not safe on a bike either.</p>

<p>I say probably because a clever department of transportation can<br />
manage to munge things up so that a sidewalk isn't bad, but the roads<br />
are downright terrifying still. Large chunks of Los Angeles are like<br />
that. I was quite happy to walk everywhere there, but I don't think<br />
there's enough money in the world to get me to ride a bike on a typical<br />
LA street. (and I'm scared witless of riding on a sidewalk... I wasn't<br />
allowed to do it as a child, and LA sidewalks can be extra specially<br />
exciting even as a pedestrian)</p>

<p>There are League of American Bicyclist classes in riding bikes on<br />
the road. I was taught by my parents, and the material they taught<br />
matches the PA Bike Driver's Manual (which didn't exist when they<br />
started teaching me, but is related to the LAB course material). This<br />
means I'm not very motivated to check out the classes, as PA law<br />
matches CA and WI law (for once)... but I know people who have taken<br />
them, and they seem to find them helpful. There's a substantial<br />
practical component of riding your bike on the road, and that seems to<br />
be what makes the classes work. The supervised practice can't hurt, and<br />
it might cut down on what road conditions you find terrifying.</p>

<p>And yes, I find the activist types annoying too. IME people who do<br />
not ride their bikes have sound reasons for their choice. Maybe they're<br />
more disabled than I am. Maybe they weren't taught. Maybe they have<br />
kids and don't want to turn their kids' lives upside down. Some of<br />
those reasons are fixable, others aren't. But if I'm not willing to<br />
help with the fixable ones and be kind about the permanent ones, I'm a<br />
pretty poor excuse for a human being.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  5:43 PM by Emily&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #157 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Industrial-Strength-SINGER-414G-Gear-Driven-Rotary-404_W0QQitemZ300210514358QQihZ020QQcategoryZ28166QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" rel="nofollow">Treadle-convertible Singer</a></p>

<p>It would need to have a groove machined in the hand wheel. You'd do<br />
this by taking the top section off, before disconnecting and pulling<br />
the motor.</p>

<p>Note the transverse fin across the top of the machine. This is to<br />
create turbulence, so that when you're stitching at great speed,<br />
nothing catches fire.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:08 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #158 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops, it's straight stitch only. Still a better deal for a treadle<br />
conversion than trying to refurbish one of the "granny style" spindly<br />
black ones of days of yore.</p>

<p>All the parts for this one are still available, and not expensive.</p>

<p>No, I have no connection with the seller.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:12 PM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #159 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Carol Kimball</b> @ 155... <i>The old Singers have built-in guides</i></p>

<p>"And over here, on the right, is Mark Singer, start of <i>Beastmaster</i>..."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:15 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #160 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#156, Emily - <br /><br />
Truthfully, it probably is perfectly possible to ride on the road that<br />
frightens me. I see cyclists doing it all the time. But they're sport<br />
cyclists, not commuters, so they do it early on Sunday morning most of<br />
the time, in a pack. Occasionally there'll be someone alone on a<br />
weekday afternoon. Even so, I wouldn't walk that street.</p>

<p>I'll have to see if there are any LAB classes in my area. A class<br />
might help, because if I went the other way (the long way around,<br />
really), I could be on the frightening road for the last, straight<br />
stretch instead. The difficulty with that route is that it is a much,<br />
much larger and more heavily trafficked road that I'd be turning on to.<br />
That does scare me, but not as much, and a class might be enough to<br />
make a difference there.</p>

<p>The activists...I'm probably exaggerating the situation. My most<br />
recent spotting of the problem was on a Treehugger.com comment thread<br />
where someone pointed out that </p>

<p><a href="http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/03/physically-separated-bike-lanes-concrete-is-better-than-cops.php#comment-183186" rel="nofollow">(Sharing bike lanes with traffic depends on...)<i>1. The ability of the bike rider to understand how to ride in traffic, and that means to not be afraid of these metal monsters.<br /><br />
 2. The understanding by the drivers of these cars that bikes belong on the road too.<br /><br />
The problem is that 2 can only happen when there are enough 1s, but most 1s want to wait until there are enough 2s. Catch-22.</i></a><br /><br />
My fear and guilt makes that read as an accusation that it probably isn't.  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:19 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #161 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Things I love, which persist in usefulness.</p>

<p>Cast iron (hard to kill, easy to clean; purported to add iron to the diet).</p>

<p>Manual utenstils (mortar and pestle, madeline, pasta machine, planes, chisels).</p>

<p>Old machinery (the south bend lathe, drill press, etc. In a pinch we<br />
could convert them to lots of batteries fed from the solar panels).<br />
It's fixable. With the lathes, we can make every other tool we need.<br />
The shaper makes it easier (because that will make gears a lot more<br />
easily than hand filing them from turned wheels)</p>

<p>Heck, with some work, we could use the horses to drive things.  Not the best, but a generator isn't that hard to build.</p>

<p>re helmets: I grew up without them. I can't really concieve of not<br />
wearing them now. I feel naked without one (be it horse, bike, or<br />
motorcycle; though those have always been a helmet item). Sort of like<br />
seat belt. I am not comfortable in a car without one.</p>

<p>Then again, I've probably spent more time in a helmet than most people.</p>

<p>re pizza (having worked in a pizzeria). Reheat them with a hot oven.<br />
(450-475). Arrange for some airspace below the crust (crumpling tinfoil<br />
will do it), this keeps the crust from getting soggy. That's also a<br />
good trick for baking them at home (though somethig like my baking<br />
stone will also work). Places like Domino's have a woven screen they<br />
use; even in the industrial ovens (small airspace, high head) they use.</p>

<p>re watches: I dislike things around my wrist (this may be a result<br />
of my having small wrists, tight enough to stay on = binding). So I use<br />
a pocket watch, except that my windup ones are all in need of new<br />
mainsprings (and the one I like best needs to have a competent<br />
watchsmith to repair the catch; the previous owner had the habit of<br />
pressing it shut). The electric one I bought when I shipped to Iraq<br />
works fine, but I forget to go and replace the battery.</p>

<p>So right now it's sitting on my dresser, useless.</p>

<p>Carrie s. I recall taking a class on the history of England. We got<br />
to changes in spinning, and I took a drop spindle and some wool with<br />
me. I think I'd spun about ten feet before the instructor noticed and<br />
then made me do a demo.</p>

<p>John Hawkes-Reed: I recall, when I was riding everywhere, the number<br />
of drivers who enjoyed being rude to cyclists (the honking, the<br />
swerving, the yelling out the window). Then the people who don't look<br />
when the open doors, or make turns without noticing, etc.</p>

<p>That I did this all without a helmet is why I ended up with a couple<br />
of concussions (the kid who shot out of the alley at 25 miles an<br />
hour... I am so glad I looked to my right, because I was started<br />
hauling as much ass as I could crank. Had I been a trifle slower it<br />
wouldn't have been my rear wheel he hit, it would have been my leg).</p>

<p>Then there was the time the guy just swung into the parking lot in<br />
front of me. Couldn't turn tight enough; wasn't able to lay it down<br />
before I hit the door. Trashed my front wheel, and left rubber marks on<br />
the rear window.</p>

<p>Then again, bicycles (here in Calif.) can second class pedestrians;<br />
they are allowed to use the sidewalks, so long as they yeild to foot<br />
traffic and dismount at intersections.</p>

<p>This was done so that children didn't have to ride in lanes.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:35 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #162 from dcb</title>
         <description>comment from dcb on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding bicycling - </p>

<p>I normally cycle if: it's under 5-6 miles and I'm not<br />
carrying/expecting to carry anything very heavy (I carry 10 kg in my<br />
backpack on a too-regular basis) or too large.</p>

<p>We still have a car; it doesn't get used very often (less than once<br />
a week on average) but it's the convenience when it is needed, whether<br />
to get two people, two cats and assorted luggage from London to<br />
Manchester via the workplace, or to take a neighbour to Accident &amp;<br />
Emergency.</p>

<p>As a cyclist, I consider it important to be aware (including being<br />
aware that bus and lorry drivers can't see you while you're alongside<br />
them) and to obey the Highway Code (UK) - for example stopping at<br />
traffic lights, including pedestrian lights. I just wish powered<br />
vehicle drivers would be aware of that their airstream can make<br />
cyclists wobble, cyclists want to go around, not through, that<br />
pothole/large puddle ahead, and (for drivers of long vehicles in<br />
particular), cyclists are not stationary, so cutting back in when the<br />
back of your vehicle passes <em>where the cyclist was when you started overtaking</em> is a bad idea...</p>

<p>The canvas bags we've been using for shopping are still fine after<br />
about five years, and we very rarely forget them. We're finally running<br />
out of plastic supermarket bags to use as trash bags in the kitchen bin.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:42 PM by dcb&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #163 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emily: The San Fernando Valley (which is in Los Angeles, for those<br />
as don't know) is where I learned to use a bike for primary transport.</p>

<p>I think, actually, it made me a better driver. Looking out for<br />
traffic patterns (lest I be smeared by a truck) made me aggressively<br />
defensive.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  6:53 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #164 from C. Wingate</title>
         <description>comment from C. Wingate on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have what I will dub the "battleship" theory of mechanical<br />
appliances and devices. This theory holds that all such tools pass<br />
through a stage where they are built like a tank. For woodworking<br />
tools, this is epitomized by the <a href="http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan2.htm#num9.5" rel="nofollow">Stanley 9 1/2 block plane</a><br />
(they don't make this particular model anymore, but the current model<br />
12-920 is close). For sewing machines, it's the Singer 401.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:12 PM by C. Wingate&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #165 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there's some misunderstanding about Moore's Law. Moore's Law<br />
doesn't force any electronics company to do anything at all. Moore's<br />
Law is like a natural law, like.. the law of gravity. And there are<br />
plenty of ways to move around with gravity as a constraining factor.<br />
But if you happen to be a rocket ship that's about 2000 feet above a<br />
launch pad, you pretty much have to accelerate your ass off until you<br />
hit orbital velocity, or you're dead meat.</p>

<p>What Moore's Law ends up doing is this: Any chip I build today will<br />
have maybe four times the features as a chip I built maybe two years<br />
ago, and today's chip with more features will cost less than the chip<br />
from a couple years ago. That's because I can fit that many more<br />
transistors in a fixed space, and can do it for less money.</p>

<p>The other thing is that the chip I build today will have a fabrication NRE that's <i>way</i><br />
more expensive than it was a couple years ago. This means I have to<br />
design a chip to be much more generic, much more able to be used in<br />
different systems. More flexible. And more generic at the same time.</p>

<p>Now, combine that with the most fickle human beings on the planet:<br />
i.e. customers, and what you'll find is customers have this really,<br />
seriously, annoying habit of choosing more features for less money when<br />
comparing that against less features for more money, or even compared<br />
to same features for less money.</p>

<p>We've lost big chunks of revenue because a competitor had a chip<br />
that reduced the board to two layers. Our chip took four layers. The<br />
savings per unit was a couple of dollars. The OEM decided to go with<br />
the competitor. You can't stand still in this business.</p>

<p>If anyone is interested in game theory concepts, this is an "arms race" scenario.</p>

<p>Now, if Moore's Law ever hits its limit, some very interesting<br />
things will happen. The biggest thing will be that those rocket ships<br />
will hit a ceiling and have to park in orbit. </p>

<p>This same outcome has been produced by other means. When CD Burners<br />
hit 52x, speeds, there really wasn't any more improvements you could do<br />
to the design, as far as features go. Spin a Disc any faster, and it is<br />
likely to go all 'splodey inside your drive. The only way to<br />
distinguish yourself from the competitor was to have the same features<br />
as everyone else, but at a lower price. When that happened, we got out<br />
of the business of selling CD Burner chips.</p>

<p>Thing is, have you ever open a CD Burner drive? Not a lot of user servicable parts in there.</p>

<p>Which brings us to the third law of nature that affects electronics<br />
economics: component failures. Think vacuum tube TV's. Not a lot of<br />
"gates" on those designs. We had one when I was a kid. Thing had a<br />
whole bunch of individual tubes. Each one had a mean time between<br />
failure. Add those together, and you tube TV could easily crap out<br />
quite soon after you bought it. A whole new TV was a lot of money. So,<br />
it was cheaper to replace the tube that didn't work.</p>

<p>Nowadays, you've got most of all your logic on a single chip. Rather<br />
than having high voltage circuits operating in a vacuum contained in a<br />
rather fragile physical medium (glass), you've got relatively more<br />
sturdy components made out of various metals and plastics. solid state<br />
electronics is inherently more sturdy than vacuum state electronics.<br />
Your transistor based television didn't have sockets for the<br />
transistors because the mean time between failure for transistors was a<br />
hella lot better than for tubes, which means your transistor TV is<br />
likely to last a lot longer than your Vacuum TV before it fails. Which<br />
means putting everything in sockets just adds more to the cost of the<br />
TV without any benefit to most customers.</p>

<p>Nowadays, the overall mean time between failures for most<br />
electronics is approximately equal to the mean time before obsolences<br />
and voluntary user upgrade. At which point, if you make it easier to<br />
repair by adding things that will raise the cost of the device, it is<br />
wasting most consumer's money. And the time between upgrades is<br />
partially an outcome of that harsh mistress called Moore's Law.</p>

<p>I bought one of the first 5MP digital cameras when digital cameras<br />
were really catching on and 2MP was standard. I still have it. It still<br />
works. But the wife hates it because it's the size of a box of frozen<br />
peas, and has an LCD that's like only an inch diagonal. When it dies,<br />
or when a thin, 5MP, digital camera is available with a 4 inch screen,<br />
for cheap money, I'll be upgrading. </p>

<p>assuming they don't have 5MP cameras integrated into cell phones by<br />
then. Everything is getting integrated into your cell phone, if<br />
anyone's noticed. The cost of cell phone hardware can be subsidized by<br />
a two-year contract of monthly fees, which means cell phone economics<br />
are controlled by Moore's Law on steroids.</p>

<p>Computers are generally converting over to either fully integrated<br />
laptops and/or component systems connected by USB and/or ethernet. No<br />
one crack's open their PC case anymore. That last bit of "repair"<br />
capability has been replaced with plug 'n play interoperability. If a<br />
box dies, replace the box and just plug it into where the old one way.<br />
USB will find it. and you're up and runnign again.</p>

<p>But when you combine the economic laws of Moore's Law, fickle<br />
customers who will always choose more features for less money, and mean<br />
time between failure versus mean time before upgrade, you get the<br />
current state of consumer electronics that you see now.</p>

<p>Is it "good"? Is it "deep value"? I dunno. But I've been working in<br />
consumer electronics, specifically in asic design, for the last decade<br />
or so. And it's just the way the current market operates.</p>

<p>Can it be changed? I don't know that either. I've been a big fan of<br />
Open Source for a few years now. I'm currently helping a group come up<br />
with an Open Source license that would actually provide hardware design<br />
with some Copyleft protection. (GNU-GPL, due to some quirks, provides<br />
no copyleft protection to hardware.) And as big of a fan as I am of<br />
open source and hardware design, I can't figure out a way to get out of<br />
the gravity well that is moore's law. The big hit right now is that the<br />
fabrication NRE for a chip can cost you a million dollars. Not<br />
something some hackers and a few PC's can pull together. FPGA's will<br />
allow some folks to play, but they will always be outpriced by someone<br />
who can afford to pony up the money to convert it into an ASIC.</p>

<p>ah well. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:36 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #166 from eric</title>
         <description>comment from eric on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re digital cameras -- </p>

<p>I think that digital cameras, especially dslrs, are run a lot harder<br />
than the snapshot cameras that they replaced due to the whole 'each<br />
click is free' thing. </p>

<p>I'd be stunned if your entry level slr from 20 years ago would have<br />
it's shutter die. It just didn't happen, even though the shutters were<br />
only good for ~ 10k clicks. </p>

<p>I know someone who's worn out a Nikon D70. Killed the shutter from<br />
over use. I've run my Original Digital Rebel to about 40k images, and<br />
it's rated at 50k. That would be something like $15k worth of film, and<br />
would just never happen. </p>

<p>And now, If I need to replace the body, I have three choices:<br />
replacement in kind, original dollar value, or what I really want. Used<br />
300Ds are ~$225, a new/refurb 30d is about $650 (same price as I paid,<br />
but one level up and 2 generations newer), or the 40d is more like<br />
$1200 (what I want). </p>

<p>It's somewhat freeing to know that even through this was originally expensive, its replacement cost is not that bad. </p>

<p>As for durability, the camera that the dslr replaced, a digital<br />
elph, also $600 new, is now my preschoolers camera. It just went<br />
through the washing machine in his pocket, and after drying, it still<br />
works. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:46 PM by eric&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #167 from Clifton Royston</title>
         <description>comment from Clifton Royston on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg's summary is right on the dot.  Kudos for putting it so clearly.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:53 PM by Clifton Royston&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #168 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>C@164: <i>I have what I will dub the "battleship" theory of mechanical appliances and devices.</i></p>

<p>I have a vague (and totally would not bet so much as a dime that I'm<br />
remembering any of this correctly) memory of reading about some general<br />
during WW2 who was in charge of procurring a new artillery design. He<br />
had some companies build prototypes, and then he had each prototype<br />
thrown off a cliff. The one that fired the best after the cliff-drop<br />
was the design he approved and ordered manufactured in quantity.</p>

<p>Now <i>that</i> is what I call deep value.</p>

<p>;)<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  7:57 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #169 from Brooks Moses</title>
         <description>comment from Brooks Moses on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg @168: That reminds me of a friend of mine who used to work in<br />
the hard-drive industry, telling about a set of special<br />
extra-shock-resistant drives they made for some particular application<br />
that was willing to pay quite a lot for custom drives.</p>

<p>As he told the story, after the fellow running the tests on the<br />
prototype finished with the basic "not a brick" tests, he hooked up<br />
some long cables to it, set it on the edge of the lab bench, started up<br />
a read/write test, and swatted it off onto the floor.</p>

<p>It may have missed a beat or two, but it corrected for that and kept going.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  8:20 PM by Brooks Moses&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #170 from Distraxi</title>
         <description>comment from Distraxi on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt @ 142:  "electricity use in and of itself is not unsustainable".</p>

<p>Absolutely: muscle power's still energy which as to come from<br />
somewhere, and in terms of minimising our use of resources I'd have<br />
thought that generate electricity -&gt; transmit electricity -&gt; use<br />
electricity was a more efficient cycle than grow food -&gt; harvest and<br />
transport -&gt; cook -&gt; eat &amp; convert to muscle power.</p>

<p>Providing, of course, that the generate electricity bit doesn't<br />
involve growing trees, compressing them for a few million years, and<br />
burning the resulting goo.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  8:49 PM by Distraxi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #171 from Sam Kelly</title>
         <description>comment from Sam Kelly on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Distraxi at 170 wrote: <em>[I]n terms of minimising our use of<br />
resources I'd have thought that generate electricity -&gt; transmit<br />
electricity -&gt; use electricity was a more efficient cycle than grow<br />
food -&gt; harvest and transport -&gt; cook -&gt; eat &amp; convert to<br />
muscle power.</em></p>

<p>It is more efficient if you a) have an application that absolutely<br />
needs electricity to work (eg. computers), b) can only get your power<br />
from something that won't cook your food or heat your house on its own<br />
(eg. hydro), and c) don't have to transmit it over long distances. The<br />
loss to the grid is something fierce.</p>

<p>The ground rule is not to change the form of any energy (chemical,<br />
kinetic, electrical, heat) unless you absolutely have to, because<br />
you'll always lose some down the thermodynamic cracks.</p>

<p>The second cycle you quote can be multipurpose too - growing food<br />
helps condition your land for more food, and preserves a friendly local<br />
ecosystem, while cooking also helps keep you warm. It's also far less<br />
vulnerable to problems outside your control than the electricity one is.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008  9:29 PM by Sam Kelly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #172 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Deep Value status:</p>

<p>Bicycling: Back when I lived in Cambridge (MA) and before that, I<br />
was an avid cyclist. When I moved down to NYC, I found the roads simply<br />
too threatening, and gave up on trying to bike them. Now that I've<br />
moved down to Charlottesville, I got a new bike, but discovered a<br />
couple or three problems: </p>

<p>(1) After 10 years in NYC, half of them sunk in depression, my leg<br />
strength is shot. That's gonna take a while to recover, especially as<br />
I'm 10 years older!</p>

<p>(2)  There are quite a lot of bike-friendly roads around, but they don't include the roads I actually <i>live</i><br />
near! (Despite being a non-driver, I seem to have a karmic attraction<br />
to big, dangerous, highways.) This leaves me in the peculiar position<br />
of having to take my bike on the bus to get someplace where I can ride<br />
it.... </p>

<p>(3) This place is a heckuvalot hillier than Cambridge ever was, and more spread out too.</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are some advantages:  </p>

<p>(1) I actually <i>can</i> take my bike on the bus -- they all have racks on the front.  There's a lot of public support for biking too.</p>

<p>(2) The weather is much more clement than either Cambridge or NYC.<br />
In retrospect, I could have gotten a fair bit of riding in during the<br />
winter, but I was still adjusting to everything.</p>

<p>(3) My new bike is much more flexible, and lighter, than the<br />
Frankenstein Special (built from parts, thank you Broadway Bikes) I was<br />
riding up in Cambridge.</p>

<p>Other stuff:  </p>

<p>I'm still using the canvas bags I accumulated back in Cambridge;<br />
they stuff nicely into my backpack, and one has handles long enough to<br />
sling it over my shoulder. I also get some plastic grocery bags, but<br />
those are good for litter-box maintenance.</p>

<p>I'm using a bunch of old cast-off computers, PCs ranging from 400 to<br />
1200 MHz, running Linux and BSD. (The 400s are almost useless these<br />
days, but I am using one for a BSD firewall). I've been maxing out the<br />
memory on the faster machines, and generally upgrading peripherals and<br />
components. (Already my systems are doing a lot better than they were a<br />
year ago.) At this point I won't bother salvaging boxes under a<br />
gigahertz or so (except to strip them.</p>

<p>My digital camera (An Olympus FE-170) takes AA batteries. It drains<br />
them pretty quickly (2 at a time), but I got rechargeables first thing,<br />
and keep a spare set handy. I also have a flashlight that charges with<br />
a squeeze "trigger", but for some reason K-mart stopped stocking them<br />
since I bought mine.</p>

<p>Most of my furniture is gifts or salvage, some of it quite old. My<br />
bookshelves are steel-frame, I bought those back when a rabbit was<br />
vandalizing all my stuff, and undermined my prior set to the point of<br />
collapse. My book collection adds up as the most massive of all my<br />
possessions, and a goodly amount of it comes from used-book stores or<br />
sales. (The local library is doing their booksales this month, the SF<br />
part starts next week. I need another bookshelf.... ;-) )<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:04 PM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #173 from Paul Lalonde</title>
         <description>comment from Paul Lalonde on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R. Emrys @ 146 - I found my shoemaker by asking at upmarket shoe<br />
stores. The recommendations all agreed, so I went to visit Gaudio who<br />
turned out to be an elderly Italian man who has been operating in the<br />
same location for over 40 years. Nowadays he does more repair than<br />
fabrication, but he loves the new work when he can get it. His<br />
collection of lasts is astounding. </p>

<p>Yes, I've made my share of medieval leather shoes. Modern shoes<br />
don't look too much more difficult, but there are more fit and finish<br />
issues to deal with if you want to wear the shoes to anything nearing<br />
formal.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:06 PM by Paul Lalonde&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #174 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam@171: <i>The loss to the grid is something fierce</i></p>

<p>I'm a digital guy, and I only took one power distribution course in<br />
college, most of which I can't remember other than vague-ities like<br />
"current, bad. voltage, pretty." But according to wikipedia, the loss<br />
on the grid for the US for 1995 was only about <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses" rel="nofollow">7 percent</a>.</p>

<p>The grid has a bunch of problems, mainly relating to the fact that<br />
anyone with a pessimistic streak, or with some experience in fail-safe<br />
design, would look at the grid and whimper uncontrollably. </p>

<p>But as far as efficiency goes, I think it's relatively decent.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:14 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #175 from SK-reader</title>
         <description>comment from SK-reader on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee @ 104</p>

<p>You asked about energy usage of tankless water heaters.</p>

<p>From what I've read:<br /><br />
"For homes that use 41 gallons or less of hot water daily, demand water<br />
heaters can be 24%–34% more energy efficient than conventional storage<br />
tank water heaters. They can be 8%–14% more energy efficient for homes<br />
that use a lot of hot water—around 86 gallons per day. You can achieve<br />
even greater energy savings of 27%–50% if you install a demand water<br />
heater at each hot water outlet."<br /><br />
Via:  http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12820</p>

<p>I think they're popular here in Hong Kong because of the energy<br />
savings and because most flats are very small and there's no room for a<br />
"conventional" water tank hot water heater.</p>

<p>The electric ones are nice, because you don't have to worry about<br />
ventilation issues. The problem is that you have to have robust wiring<br />
in your house. So the gas ones (that run off of the big LPG cylinders)<br />
are better for places that have weaker or intermittent electricity or<br />
no electricity at all.</p>

<p>The retail prices for one of the big companies in HK is between<br />
US$150 (for a single point, small heater) to ~ US$ 650 for a large<br />
multi-point heater.</p>

<p>In our flat we have one water heater for each bathroom (2) and one<br />
for the kitchen. That way if someone wants to take a shower while<br />
another person is washing dishes, it's not a problem.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:20 PM by SK-reader&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #176 from Kayjayoh</title>
         <description>comment from Kayjayoh on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>abi @ 107</i></p>

<p>Not only did that sentiment make me huzzah in agreement, I also laugh really hard every time I get to the last sentence. :)</p>

<p>I've been unemployed since mid-Decmeber, when my non-profit job was<br />
no longer able to fund my position. It was a bit of an extra sadness<br />
when on Christmas Day one of my tires decided to die. I'd known I<br />
needed new tires, but had been waiting till financial stability to get<br />
new ones. Now I had no choice, but I am trying to avoid digging myself<br />
into debt while looking for a job. So I've been going carless since<br />
then.</p>

<p>As I am yet another Madisonian (rather a lot of us on this thread,<br />
aren't there) this has been both easy and difficult. I have asthma and<br />
a hard time dealing with cold and won't bike if there is ice, so it<br />
meant a lot a lot of long, slow trudges to the store or the bus stop<br />
(often in snow). It was especially inconvenient that the buses only run<br />
till around midnight (and sooner on weekends) and most of my friends<br />
live across town from me. </p>

<p>Yet I realize that not having a car has really saved me money these<br />
past few months. No money going into the gas tank and fewer impulse<br />
buys. I need to plan what I am going to buy, when I am going to buy it,<br />
and how I am going to get it home. This has helped me to get by in my<br />
unemployment insurance. </p>

<p>It has also prompted me to start considering going carless once I<br />
have a job again. I'd love to get by on foot, bike, and public transit.<br />
Maybe make occasional use of <a href="http://www.communitycar.com/" rel="nofollow">Community Car</a>.<br />
But so much of that depends on where I find work and what I do. It<br />
might be that a car remains essential. Madison has some areas that are<br />
very bike and ped friendly and others that are sprawling and impossible<br />
without a car. </p>

<p>(Of course the housing costs in the bike/ped friendly areas are<br />
shockingly high and the areas of town with my affordable rents are the<br />
ones that require a car. Six of one, half dozen of the other, I guess.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:23 PM by Kayjayoh&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #177 from Kayjayoh</title>
         <description>comment from Kayjayoh on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R. Emrys @ 146 There are also some folk on Etsy.com how custom make<br />
shoes. I can't vouch for their work personally, since it is out of my<br />
price range, but it all looks pretty good.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:28 PM by Kayjayoh&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #178 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don't know if this qualifies as "deep" value, but I just received<br />
an 8 gig USB 2.0 drive dongle that I bought for $35. you can get one <a href="http://www.buy.com/prod/kingston-8gb-hi-speed-datatraveler-2-0-usb-flash-memory-drive/q/loc/101/204561465.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>

<p>I finally replaced the stereo in my car (last one was stolen a<br />
couple years ago, had a big gaping hole there for a long time). It is a<br />
nice unit that plays MP3 CD's, has a USB port connector, an aux input<br />
connector, and bluetooth for my cell phone. It was a clearance item<br />
that I got for $40. The wire harness was $7 from walmart. The mounting<br />
bracket I had to get from the toyota dealer cost $50 (fricken dealer<br />
anyway).</p>

<p>So, I got the USB drive today, and I'm dragging and dropping all my music so I can play it in my car, and <i>damn</i> but 8 gig is a lot of space.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:41 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #179 from Tangurena</title>
         <description>comment from Tangurena on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What do you think is the cause of most electronic failure?  <br /><br />
Due to EU and Calif regulations, lead in solder is being phased out.<br />
Lead-free solders are far less reliable than 63-37 solders, and at a<br />
first approximation, electronic reliability went backwards at least 2<br />
decades (which means that it will take at least 2 more decades for<br />
electronics to get to the reliability of those made in the early to mid<br />
90s). As for fountain pens, I got a Namiki with a retractable tip for<br />
writing Japanese (ok, so I fell for the advertising blurb at Levengers)<br />
about 15 years ago and I'm still using it. It gets a lot of looks from<br />
strangers, because it sits in my shirt pocket (gah! nerd alert!) and<br />
people continually hold it wrong to play with it. I've noticed that a<br />
lot of people try to hold a pen with attached pocket clip downwards<br />
(opposite the gap between thumb and index finger), which for this pen<br />
puts the writing nib upside down.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 10:46 PM by Tangurena&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #180 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  1.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cameras: I have different expectations of them. I know people who<br />
wore out the shutters in Nikon FE2s (mostly because they didn't know<br />
that the titanium shutters don't do well with motor drives.</p>

<p>I wore out the shutter on my entry level SLR (N2000). The shutter,<br />
per se, didn't fail, but the stop on which it rested between uses<br />
degraded and started to cause sticking. I'd put, oh, I don't know,<br />
15,000 frames through it.</p>

<p>But I'm not the typical user. The shutter on the D2/3 cameras (and I<br />
believe that's for the 200/300 as well) is the same as in F5/6, which<br />
is, so far as one can tell, the best Nikon shutter since the F3 (for<br />
which the record is, IIRC, something in in the insane 100s of<br />
thousands, before it needed to be worked on).</p>

<p>My D2H has, though I am not more than approximate, I'll dig out the<br />
actual numbers if anyone cares), about 100,000 frames in the past 2 1/2<br />
years.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  1, 2008 11:57 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #181 from Lee</title>
         <description>comment from Lee on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske, #160: Back in the late 60s and early 70s (for me, age<br />
11-16), I rode all over my neighborhood -- including several busy main<br />
arteries -- in the street. All the older kids did; it was sort of a<br />
rite of passage to move from riding on the sidewalk to riding in the<br />
street. And I didn't particularly worry about the cars, because I'd<br />
seen how drivers responded to other bikes; there was a general<br />
expectation that yes, there <i>were</i> going to be kids on bikes in the street, and you just dealt with it. </p>

<p>Where I live now, it's a very different story. Houston is overall a<br />
fairly bike-friendly city, but there are a lot of streets that aren't<br />
wide enough for a bike to share safely with traffic (the prevalence of<br />
huge SUVs and monster pickups has a lot to do with this), and the<br />
sidewalks (where there are sidewalks at all) tend to be... poorly<br />
maintained, which makes them a challenge to ride. Even where the city<br />
has added bike lanes to the streets, there often isn't room for a bike<br />
if there's heavy traffic in both directions (see again, ultra-wide<br />
vehicles) -- and frankly, I don't trust the drivers to give a shit.<br />
This is doubtless unfair to a lot of them, but it doesn't take many bad<br />
apples to spoil the whole barrel. </p>

<p>So yes, it's the catch-22 that you describe; however, I also feel<br />
that there's been a general cultural shift in the attitudes of drivers<br />
about bikes since I was a young teen. There was a high-profile case a<br />
few years back where a popular "drive time" comedy team was making<br />
JOKES about running down bike riders, and then some cretin actually <i>did</i><br />
hit a biker on purpose and said that the DJs had been his inspiration.<br />
Of course there was a very large settlement, but IMO that doesn't make<br />
up for the level of injuries suffered by the biker, and the DJs lost<br />
their jobs at that station but probably just went to another city.<br />
Let's face it, in an altercation between a car and a bike, the bike is<br />
going to lose... badly. That's not a matter of opinion, and it's<br />
definitely a factor to take into account. <br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 12:59 AM by Lee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #182 from Spacetime for Springers</title>
         <description>comment from Spacetime for Springers on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re shopping carts on wheels, I've just started using one that folds<br />
up into a small "bag" when not in use, excellent for taking to work to<br />
use for your shopping on the way home. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  1:03 AM by Spacetime for Springers&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:03:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #183 from Marilee</title>
         <description>comment from Marilee on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Emily</b>, #125, in Virginia, you do have the right to block the<br />
road. Bikes have the same right to use the road that a car does, and if<br />
a car can't pass safely, they're supposed to stay behind the bike. Of<br />
course, the instant a biker crosses on a red because nobody's coming,<br />
I'm going to feel more comfortable passing in a tight area.</p>

<p><b>fidelio</b>, #128, I have the <a href="http://www.coloradopen.com/category/Pelikano_Junior_Fountain_Pen" rel="nofollow">Pelikano Junior</a>,<br />
but I have an older one. Mine has the yellow barrel (with the port) but<br />
a purple cap and the part right above the nib is purple. It has a flat<br />
side on the cap and around the port so it won't roll down your desk. I<br />
have really lousy handwriting, so I only use it for really important<br />
cards.</p>

<p><b>Madison Guy</b>, #132, I have a <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/KENSINGTON-Expert-Mouse-PRO-usb-MODEL-64213_W0QQitemZ190211037391QQihZ009QQcategoryZ11193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" rel="nofollow">Kensington trackball</a><br />
with ten programmable buttons that isn't made anymore and it's<br />
particularly valuable to me because my hands shake (it can take a<br />
minute to manage to double-click on a link with a mouse). I bought a<br />
backup from eBay so when this one dies, I'll have one for a while. I'm<br />
wondering if I should buy another backup.</p>

<p><b>Diatryma</b>, #152, I have a down duvet and duvet cover on my bed<br />
because they're very light and I have gout. I made a plastic pipe thing<br />
to hold them up when even that's too much.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  1:17 AM by Marilee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #184 from Distraxi</title>
         <description>comment from Distraxi on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam Kelly @ 171:</p>

<p><em>"It is more efficient if you a) have an application that absolutely needs electricity to work"</em>.<br /><br />
If you absolutely need electricity, what's it more efficient than?</p>

<p><em>"b) can only get your power from something that won't cook your food or heat your house on its own"</em><br /><br />
Sorry, I fail to follow the logic here</p>

<p><em>"c) don't have to transmit it over long distances"</em><br /><br />
What Greg London said. Grid transmission is pretty efficient - thats<br />
why they use stupendous voltages. Transporting food in trucks, on the<br />
other hand, is not. Particularly when as in the real world it goes from<br />
farm to storage to processor to warehouse to supermarket to your home.</p>

<p><em>"The ground rule is not to change the form of any energy "</em><br /><br />
Which is precisely my point - there's more mode changes in the food<br />
chain than the electrical one, and while I'm not a biochemist I'd<br />
hazard a guess that some of them are pretty inefficient.</p>

<p><em>"growing food helps condition your land for more food, and preserves a friendly local ecosystem"</em><br /><br />
Dubiously true for the high-intensity farming practiced in most of the developed world.</p>

<p><em>"while cooking also helps keep you warm"</em><br /><br />
And doing so is an additional energy wastage. Most cooking processes<br />
have lousy efficiency and heat you whether you need it or not. The<br />
waste heat from your stove is using exactly the same amount of energy<br />
as if you turned the stove off and turned your electric heater on.<br />
Probably more because your heater's not wasting half of it up a<br />
rangehood.</p>

<p><em>"It's also far less vulnerable to problems outside your control than the electricity one is"</em><br /><br />
Now <strong>that</strong> one I'll buy.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  1:18 AM by Distraxi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #185 from miriam beetle</title>
         <description>comment from miriam beetle on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>distraxi,</p>

<p><i>Probably more because your heater's not wasting half of it up a rangehood.</i></p>

<p>well, without a good rangehood, a hoodrange can't range good.</p>

<p>(sorry! it could not be resisted.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  3:36 AM by miriam beetle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:36:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #186 from Distraxi</title>
         <description>comment from Distraxi on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>miriam beetle,</p>

<p>How much good could a rangehood range if a rangehood could range good?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:37 AM by Distraxi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #187 from Christian Severin</title>
         <description>comment from Christian Severin on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: bicycles:<br /><br />
I didn't want to post this on the First of April, to make sure it<br />
retains at least a shred of credibility in the eyes of the poor USians<br />
reading here:</p>

<p><br /><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnster" rel="nofollow">Münster</a>, "Bicycle Capital of the World", has about 270.000 inhabitants and about half a million bicycles.</p>

<p>Every street wide enough for a line down the middle also has at least one bicycle lane on the side.</p>

<p>Every traffic light at a street with bicycle lanes has separate bike traffic lights, often with separate green times.</p>

<p>There often are <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Muenster_Fahrradschleuse_4295.jpg" rel="nofollow">special bike lanes for turning left</a>, where cars stop somewhat behind the bikes, so that the drivers have the bikes well in sight when the light turns green.</p>

<p>There are several hundred kilometers of bike lanes in the city, and<br />
a total of eleven streets where cars are tolerated, but bikes have the<br />
right of way -- kind of like pedestrian streets for bikes.</p>

<p>There are two big bicycle parking garages, one in the middle of the city (for shoppers, mostly), the other <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Muenster_Radstation7847.jpg" rel="nofollow">at the railroad station</a>.<br />
Commuters arrive by train, check out their bikes to ride to work, and<br />
return in the afternoon to check in their bikes and take the train home.</p>

<p>Within the city, <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Modal_Split_Muenster.PNG" rel="nofollow">35% to 40% of all trips</a> are by bike.</p>

<p><br /><br />
In my eyes, there's a lot to be said for old cities with narrow,<br />
crooked streets that never were adapted to the kind of traffic you get<br />
in a modern US city.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:52 AM by Christian Severin&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #188 from Distraxi</title>
         <description>comment from Distraxi on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Make that "how much <em>hood</em> could"</p>

<p>Bah, who needs to proofread properly anyway?  Mutters off back into lurkspace....</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:54 AM by Distraxi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #189 from Sam Kelly</title>
         <description>comment from Sam Kelly on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Distraxi at 184: </p>

<p>Re getting your power from something that won't cook/heat on its own<br />
- sorry, I skipped a few steps. My background for this is much more in<br />
microgeneration, so I was implicitly thinking about different ways of<br />
generating your own electricity. You want hot food and a warm house,<br />
it's smart to burn something in a good stove rather than burn something<br />
to generate electricity and then spend that on heating elements.</p>

<p>Good point about the high-intensity farming.  I suppose I was trying to compare best practices there, rather than current ones.</p>

<p>Greg at 174: Looks like my informant was wrong. I don't know where<br />
Wikipedia are getting their figures or how they calculate them, since<br />
the link for the UK figures is suffering from VBScript rot, but <a href="http://www.nationalgrid.com/uk/sys_06/default.aasp?action=mnch7_15.htm&amp;Node=SYS&amp;Snode=7_15&amp;Exp=Y#system_Power_Losses" rel="nofollow">this official National Grid plan</a><br />
claims that the total losses are consistently between 2 and 3%. Note<br />
that those are projected figures, but naturally they'll be projected<br />
from the real ones.</p>

<p>So I'm delighted to be able to retract that claim!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  6:11 AM by Sam Kelly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #190 from Kevin Riggle</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin Riggle on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam Kelly @189, et al.: I'm curious -- are there any figures for the<br />
equivalent to "line loss" of natural gas pipelines? I can't find the<br />
right bit of jargon to include in my Google search. </p>

<p>I'd always thought that using gas for cooking rather than<br />
electricity made sense, exactly because the energy only changes form<br />
once, right under your pan, but if the inefficiencies in transport or<br />
in combustion are large enough, they might outweigh the benefits in<br />
terms of energy-efficiency. (Cooking over gas is still nicer and more<br />
controllable than cooking over an electric burner, IMHO.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  6:35 AM by Kevin Riggle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #191 from Alan Braggins</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Braggins on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#170 electricity vs food</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ebikes.ca/sustainability/Ebike_Energy.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.ebikes.ca/sustainability/Ebike_Energy.pdf</a> (PDF) is a paper comparing the energy cost of electric and human powered bicycles.</p>

<p>Food production typically uses a lot of fossil fuels (in fertiliser,<br />
in farm machinery, in transport). If you eat a typical diet and live<br />
somewhere with significant renewable electricity (e.g. hydroelectric),<br />
the electric bike can be "better"/more sustainable. This ignores the<br />
fact that you are generally healthier with exercise, and if you use an<br />
electric bike to go to the gym to burn off just as much food as cycling<br />
would have, you would be better off just cycling.</p>

<p>(On the other hand, if you already have more exercise than you can<br />
cope with, an electric bike might be better even if its recharged from<br />
fossil fuel power stations while you only eat locally grown organic<br />
food.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  7:17 AM by Alan Braggins&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258307</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #192 from Tom Womack</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Womack on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The hand-cranked torch sounds a nice idea; on the other hand, the<br />
hand-cranked torch I've actually used was really not much good for what<br />
we were trying to do, namely finding small telescope parts dropped in<br />
mud on a dark night. </p>

<p>It doesn't shine uniformly for very long, and the fading light is<br />
very distracting; you can't hold it usably still while cranking, and<br />
the wobbly light is unusably distracting.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  7:18 AM by Tom Womack&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258308</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #193 from Sam Kelly</title>
         <description>comment from Sam Kelly on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin Riggle at 190: <em>[A]re there any figures for the equivalent to "line loss" of natural gas pipelines?</em></p>

<p>I've found a <a href="http://www.climate-strategies.org/uploads/1_Gas_paper_FINAL_draft.pdf" rel="nofollow">case study</a> of Russian pipelines that quotes 0.6% as the "maximum allowable loss as<br /><br />
established by the Russian government (Federal Tariff Service, 2005)"<br />
and then goes on to cite the "IEA average leakage figure" of 3.2%.</p>

<p>US figures are scarce, but this <a href="http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch14/related/methane.pdf" rel="nofollow">EPA estimate of methane emissions from the US natural gas industry</a> shows that most studies <em>assume</em> leakage rates of 1-3%.</p>

<p>I suspect it varies a lot, because the loss is a function of actual<br />
mechanical failure, and of different kinds of technology, rather than<br />
electrical heating and yer basic entropy.</p>

<p>(For reference, I found those using google: "natural gas pipeline" "leakage rate".)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  8:35 AM by Sam Kelly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #194 from Suzette Haden Elgin</title>
         <description>comment from Suzette Haden Elgin on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And let's not forget the crochet hook. I don't go anywhere without a<br />
crochet hook, which means that I can whip up all sorts of necessities<br />
and luxuries at a moment's notice, out of anything remotely threadlike.<br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  8:53 AM by Suzette Haden Elgin&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #195 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#189, Sam Kelly -</p>

<p>It's a minor quibble, but "you want a warm house" isn't true all the<br />
time, and some places it is not-true most of the time. I'm in Atlanta,<br />
and I'm already struggling to keep the house cool without resorting to<br />
air conditioning.</p>

<p>I have a top-floor apartment with all the windows on one side, so<br />
there's no possibility of a crossbreeze. It is very easy for my<br />
apartment to be warmer than the outside temp. In the winter that's<br />
nice, but it isn't winter here very long. Last week it was warm enough<br />
outside to make it uncomfortably hot in my apartment.</p>

<p>Methods of cooking that generate the least waste heat are of great interest to me.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  9:11 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #196 from Phil Armstrong</title>
         <description>comment from Phil Armstrong on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#257494" rel="nofollow">R.M. Koske</a>:<br />
A Catch-22 doesn't imply blame on any of the parties involved (in my<br />
world at least): the whole point is that all involved are acting<br />
rationally given the current state of the system.</p>

<p>In this particular case, it might be perfectly rational for cyclists<br />
to avoid the roads, since they fear being run over by drivers whilst in<br />
the meantime drivers don't think about cyclists because they never see<br />
them on the roads!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  9:11 AM by Phil Armstrong&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #197 from Wendy</title>
         <description>comment from Wendy on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About mooncups... As a former user of the diaphragm for birth<br />
control, I thought this was an excellent alternative to tampons. I<br />
tried a US product "Instead" for one cycle, and had some "diffuculty"<br />
in the removal - it looked rather like a murder scene in the bathroom,<br />
and was a lot more difficult to use than a custom-fitted birth control<br />
appliance. Other than that, it was very nice. These products are not<br />
widely promoted in the US, and I am not even sure the local stores<br />
carry such things anymore.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  9:19 AM by Wendy&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:19:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #198 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske #136: I understand your plight. Consider that of the<br />
transit-dependent (i.e., poor) Atlantan who lives just outside the<br />
range of bus service (MARTA or CCT or GCT or C-TRAN). I've known people<br />
who've had to walk two miles to the nearest bus stop, with no sidewalk.<br />
When I lived in Gwinnett Cou nty, I had a half-mile walk to the nearest<br />
bus stop in DeKalb County.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  9:57 AM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258314</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #199 from Sarah</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a <i>really</i> old Singer (made of cast iron, with a crank<br />
on one side), and while it would be nice to be able to serge, I'm<br />
pretty happy with it (plus in the extremely unlikely event of my being<br />
attacked while sewing, I could probably use it as a weapon). My concern<br />
is needle replacement. Anyone know if interchangeability is an issue<br />
with old/new sewing-machine needles?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:00 AM by Sarah&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:00:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #200 from Susan</title>
         <description>comment from Susan on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah: if you can get me your machine's model information, or a<br />
picture of the machine if there isn't any, I can ask my Singer Guy.<br />
He's quite amazing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:04 AM by Susan&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 10:04:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #201 from Caroline</title>
         <description>comment from Caroline on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wendy @ 197 -- Instead cups are a <i>whole</i> different animal from<br />
Mooncups or Divacups. I've heard many people report that Instead cups<br />
didn't work for them when a Mooncup-type cup did.</p>

<p>While the Divacup, Keeper, and Mooncup aren't promoted much in the<br />
U.S., they can often be found at health-food stores (like Whole Foods<br />
or Earth Fare) -- that's where I got mine.</p>

<p>Just to note, they can be had even in the U.S.!</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:38 AM by Caroline&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #202 from Lila</title>
         <description>comment from Lila on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EClaire @ #141: congrats on the gardening! <a href="http://www.farmerbrown.org/manual.html" rel="nofollow">Here</a><br />
is the online text of a gardening-in-the-schools guide a friend and I<br />
wrote for the Square Foot Gardening Foundation a long while back; might<br />
include some info of use. Gardening also virtually guarantees that your<br />
offspring will (a) know where food comes from and (b) not regard fresh<br />
vegetables as the enemy.</p>

<p>Belated comment on treadle-powered sewing machines: I bet they cut<br />
down on the incidence of DVTs (deep vein thromboses, or blood clots) in<br />
the legs of those who use them.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:45 AM by Lila&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #203 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In our definitions of Deep Value, we've included skills and things which can be repaired.  So I've got a question - </p>

<p>Anyone know about repairing staplers? I've got a nice, heavy stapler<br />
on my desk. Not especially old, but not a cheap plastic number, either.<br />
It is showing it's age by not bending the prongs of the staples<br />
reliably. One side gets mashed wrong and doesn't go through the pages<br />
in at least one use out of three.</p>

<p>I can't fathom why it is doing that in the first place - it ought to<br />
be simple leverage, how can it go wrong? - so I can't figure out if it<br />
is fixable or how to start.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:59 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #204 from heresiarch</title>
         <description>comment from heresiarch on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg London @ 165: <i>"Can it be changed? I don't know that either.<br />
I've been a big fan of Open Source for a few years now. I'm currently<br />
helping a group come up with an Open Source license that would actually<br />
provide hardware design with some Copyleft protection. (GNU-GPL, due to<br />
some quirks, provides no copyleft protection to hardware.) And as big<br />
of a fan as I am of open source and hardware design, I can't figure out<br />
a way to get out of the gravity well that is moore's law. The big hit<br />
right now is that the fabrication NRE for a chip can cost you a million<br />
dollars. Not something some hackers and a few PC's can pull together.<br />
FPGA's will allow some folks to play, but they will always be outpriced<br />
by someone who can afford to pony up the money to convert it into an<br />
ASIC."</i></p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_gate_array" rel="nofollow">FPGA</a>'s<br />
sound fascinating, especially the ones that are basically an entire<br />
computer on a single chip. I can imagine a point in the near future<br />
where FPGA's are good enough, small enough, that they can be used for<br />
almost any non-miniturized application: cars, TVs, household<br />
appliances, etc. If a generic, Good Enough FPGA became standard in such<br />
applications it would massively increase user- (or friendly local<br />
technician-) servicability--just pop out the fried one, and pop in a<br />
freshly-programmed generic. If the initial design costs to fabricate<br />
custom chips are so high, and rising, this might become economically<br />
feasible rather quickly. Then, if there was wide industry adoption of<br />
FPGA's, that would drive the price per chip down. Does that sound at<br />
all reasonable to someone who actually knows anything about the subject?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 11:05 AM by heresiarch&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #205 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ugh, Fragano, yes.  The transit in Atlanta is possibly the best in the state, but that isn't saying much.</p>

<p>I once waited an hour and a half to catch a bus that runs every<br />
forty-five minutes, and I used to pass on taking the bus to do errands<br />
when I lived in the areas Marta serves because I just didn't have time<br />
to make an hour-each-way trip. And that's speaking of Marta<br />
specifically. Non-marta transit isn't as good, and as you say, living<br />
outside the transit areas it is even harder.</p>

<p>Sidewalks are fast becoming a pet peeve of mine. They're apparently<br />
only for the wealthy, who don't use them (or only use them to walk<br />
their dogs). Buford Highway has a high immigrant/poor population and no<br />
sidewalks. There are stretches of a mile between traffic lights (and<br />
therefore, between safe street-crossings). People just cross when and<br />
where they can, and I personally saw at least one pedestrian fatality<br />
being loaded into the ambulance in the time I lived there. I don't<br />
doubt there are far more there than there should be.</p>

<p>On the other hand, the really wealthy sections of Buckhead, where<br />
the houses are stunning, have sidewalks. The only people I ever see on<br />
them are (judging by appearances) household workers, waiting to catch<br />
the bus. They are building new condos in a poor section of town I used<br />
to pass through regularly, and the first thing they did, before the<br />
started tearing down houses, was install sidewalks. Grrr.</p>

<p>One small thing that gives me a little hope is the situation in<br />
Smyrna. They're adding wide bike/pedestrian sidewalks in a lot of the<br />
area around Atlanta road, and near the Smyrna municipal complex I do<br />
see a lot of local people (mostly middle and upper-middle class, but<br />
not all) walking and biking apparently to the restaurants and<br />
buisinesses in that area. There's also a lot of mixed-use construction<br />
(businesses with condos above) going up. Mostly pricy stuff right now,<br />
but eventually those buildings will age and hopefully become more<br />
affordable.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 11:14 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #206 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should have said for the non-Atlantans - Buford Highway is a<br />
seven-lane road. It is not something I'd care to cross without a light.<br />
But if you are on the wrong side of the road and need to catch the bus<br />
going the other way, you cross without a light or walk a mile out of<br />
your way. Most folks cross without a light.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 11:17 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258322</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #207 from Ursula L</title>
         <description>comment from Ursula L on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wendy @ 197:</p>

<p>The reusable cups are entirely different from the disposable<br />
"Instead." The instead has that awful wide floppy bowl, which tends to<br />
loose it's shape as your remove it, causing the bloodbath you mentioned.</p>

<p>The reusable cups are firmer. They will fold for insertion/removal,<br />
but the bowl of the cup stays down in relation to the edge. Much, much<br />
tidier. Plus, capacity is enough that I've found I can leave the cup<br />
for up to 12 hours, allowing me to empty at home, where the sink is by<br />
the toilet. </p>

<p>As far as shape goes, the Diva has a U shaped bowl, while the<br />
Keeper, Keeper brand Moon Cup, and UK Mooncup have a more V shaped<br />
bowl. I find the latter to be far more comfortable. </p>

<p>(There is a UK company that has been making the "Mooncup" for years.<br />
Now the company that makes the Keeper makes a "Moon Cup" from silicone,<br />
in the same style as the latex keeper.)</p>

<p>Best comparison I've seen of the different cups here:</p>

<p>http://afriska-engl.de.tl/Different-brands-and-sizes.htm</p>

<p>I've tried a Keeper, but it began to itch after a few years use<br />
(developed a mild latex allergy?), so I got a Diva, which I returned<br />
because I found the shape uncomfortable, and I've settled on a UK<br />
Mooncup. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 11:27 AM by Ursula L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258323</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #208 from Faren Miller</title>
         <description>comment from Faren Miller on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh all right, I can't resist posting my whine about local transit<br />
after all.... Buses? Prescott AZ ain't got no stinking buses! (Or clean<br />
ones either.) Our "Tri-City Area" has finally started *discussing*<br />
plans for a transit system, but I won't be counting on any swift,<br />
efficient results.</p>

<p>It's also hilly where I live, and I never learned to ride a bike<br />
(poor vision and crummy balance, as a kid), so I'm just lucky they have<br />
now built a shopping complex with a grocery store, bank, and mailing<br />
center within walking distance -- about half a mile. My husband takes<br />
me and my mother shopping once a week, but I rarely see the older, more<br />
touristy section of our downtown. (Touristy, but there *are* a few neat<br />
shops and restaurants there.) And at times I feel nostalgiac about the<br />
good old days in both Berkeley and Emeryville, when I was in easy<br />
walking distance from a movie theater.</p>

<p>Are the current rising gas prices likely to turn more attention<br />
toward public transit or to cripple it? Depends on where you live, I<br />
guess.</p>

<p>(end of whine)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 11:49 AM by Faren Miller&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #209 from Ursula L</title>
         <description>comment from Ursula L on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Musing on the idea of sustainability and gasoline use from driving, I came up with a rather evil plan.</p>

<p>Standardize all automobile gas tanks to the same size.  Say, ten gallons (the size of the tank on my Echo.)  </p>

<p>As it is, right now, if a vehicle is less efficient, car makers put<br />
in a larger gas tank. You pay more for gas, but otherwise, you suffer<br />
no inconvenience. </p>

<p>But, if every car has the same size gas tank, from the most<br />
efficient subcompact to the most gas-guzzling SUV, the SUV drivers<br />
would have to stop and fill gas far more often. </p>

<p>This would provide, I suspect, a much stronger incentive to buy a more efficient car.</p>

<p>Plus, it would address the problem that financial incentives for<br />
fuel efficiency are less pressing for the more wealthy, which means<br />
that auto makers have less pressure to make higher end cars efficient.<br />
If you can afford the luxury car, you can afford the gas. So there is<br />
little incentive to develop improvements that will be brought in with<br />
the high end cars, as improvements often are. The improvement of having<br />
to be less frequently inconvenienced by filling the tank is something<br />
people might pay for. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 12:15 PM by Ursula L&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258325</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #210 from Tom Womack</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Womack on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FPGAs are very nifty, but I don't think there are very many problems to which they're the right answer.  </p>

<p>They gain their flexibility by using something like twenty times as<br />
many transistors as a custom solution which can simply lay down wires<br />
does, so they're unavoidably expensive: fifty dollars for a chip that<br />
does what a custom chip you could get ten million of from TSMC for five<br />
million dollars would do.</p>

<p>You've still got all the soldering problems that are unavoidable<br />
from putting eight hundred connectors on the bottom of something the<br />
size of a quarter - it's a black art to get the chip onto a board<br />
without destroying chip and board alike, a blacker art still to remove<br />
it - so you'll be in big trouble replacing the FPGA in your<br />
sewing-machine whose FPGA broke with the one from your TV whose screen<br />
broke.</p>

<p>(Though there is a little hope. I have been to malls in Thailand<br />
filled with little booths containing quite elaborate surface-mount<br />
rework kit, where you can bring in your broken mobile phone and have it<br />
repaired. It's a couple of thousands of dollars of equipment and quite<br />
a lot of training, and I think probably a bad sign for Thailand that<br />
they don't have higher-margin work for electronics assemblers - I<br />
assume that the people in the booths worked on electronics assembly<br />
lines and then left to work more for themselves)</p>

<p>You can't stick everything on the FPGA - you still often need<br />
external memory, you still usually need external analogue devices to<br />
for-example turn the digital signals from your MP3 decoder into<br />
something that can drive headphones.</p>

<p>FPGAs have cropped up in some kinds of consumer goods - the earlier<br />
LCD TVs used them, because it meant that they could use any kind of LCD<br />
panel available on the surplus market and program the video controller<br />
to drive it. They're ubiquitous in prototypes, they're ubiquitous in<br />
Weird Custom Military Things of which only a thousand will ever be made.</p>

<p>But that fifty-dollar versus fifty-cent thing means they're almost by definition used in niche applications.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 12:33 PM by Tom Womack&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258326</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #211 from Katherine Mankiller</title>
         <description>comment from Katherine Mankiller on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@136:R. M. Koske - I hear you. I live in Atlanta, too. I'd love to<br />
bike to work, but my route takes me down a very narrow, very busy two<br />
lane road without sidewalks where people drive 50mph, and onto a<br />
limited access road that says "No bikes." I also live in the MARTAless<br />
'burbs. </p>

<p>Oh, and I forgot to mention (@anyone in general)--linux is also very<br />
forgiving of old hardware, if you use the right distribution. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  1:18 PM by Katherine Mankiller&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258327</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:18:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #212 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marilee: In Calif. bicycles (which are in lanes) are vehicles, just<br />
as cars are. Then again, as a pedestrian I have an absolute right of<br />
way (even when I am not legally allowed to be in the street).</p>

<p>But, on a bicycle, I am really vulnerable if the drivers of<br />
automobiles don't want to yield to me the right of way to which I am<br />
entitled. Worse, I am not seen by them (in the main) as equal, or even<br />
notable; except as a nuisance.</p>

<p>I've been hit by two cars, and cut off so badly I've hit two cars.<br />
I've been pushed off the road (occaisionally to places where I was<br />
toppled) more than that.</p>

<p>That was in a five year period.</p>

<p>In the 21 years I've been driving, I've been in zero automobile accidents.</p>

<p>re gardening: I have grapes in half barrels. In those same pots I<br />
also have rue (to keep the damned cat from digging) some poppies (I'm a<br />
sucker for pretty flowers), onions (attracts bees), dill, carrots (also<br />
attracts bees), shallots and garlic.</p>

<p>I let the vetch grow, because it's a legume.</p>

<p>This year, I'm going to have to thin "The Cutting Grape" (they all<br />
have names) because it's got not less than 40, large, bunches of<br />
florets.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  1:51 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258328</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:51:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #213 from hamadryad</title>
         <description>comment from hamadryad on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jen B at #120</p>

<p>Pelikan makes some very good entry-level pens. Most of them are<br />
piston-fills, so they hold a lot of ink. And all of the M-series pens<br />
have interchangeable nibs. The M200 is the most reasonably priced of<br />
the M-series pens, I believe. If you have big hands or like heavy pens,<br />
it probably won't be suitable for you. Personally, I love the M200.<br />
It's the perfect size for me, and is light enough that it doesn't cause<br />
fatigue or pain. The M400 is the same size, but has a gold nib, and<br />
possibly better plastics. Generally, for the M-series pens, the higher<br />
the number, the bigger/heavier/more expensive the pen. The largest is<br />
the M1000. </p>

<p>Oscar Braun pens usually has a nice selection and really excellent<br />
prices. Pam also does special orders. http://onebeagle.net/oscarbraun/</p>

<p>If you want to get more advice about fountain pens, you could also<br />
check out The Fountain Pen Network. They're always happy to find more<br />
people to lure over to the dark side. http://www.fountainpennetwork.com</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  1:58 PM by hamadryad&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258329</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #214 from Nancy C. Mittens</title>
         <description>comment from Nancy C. Mittens on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If anyone wants to try the Instead thingy, please contact me (email<br />
my livejournal name (visible in the link) at juno.com) and I will ship<br />
the ones I have and didn't use off to you.</p>

<p>Jen B. at 150,</p>

<p>I would suggest a Parker Vector - the nib is steel, and very hard to<br />
bend. You'll give you the springyness of a fountain pen, but won't have<br />
to worry about the nib. They're inexpensive, and make a nice, light<br />
starter fountain pen.</p>

<p>I finally bought one to replace the one from my childhood I lost.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  3:03 PM by Nancy C. Mittens&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258330</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:03:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #215 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'm very leery of Linux for two reasons.  </p>

<p>1. My husband is an IT professional who prefers Windows. He hates<br />
Linux, so my in-house tech support would evaporate if I switched.</p>

<p>2. My experiences with Linux have been pretty poor. I spent a long<br />
time once (forty five minutes?) trying to get an existing Linux setup<br />
to tell me what kind of Linux it was so I could see if a program I<br />
wanted to install would be compatible. I never succeeded. I had to get<br />
my husband to tell me (he'd built the box, so he knew.) Even armed with<br />
this information, I couldn't figure out what programs would be<br />
compatible because I had something like Red Hat 3*, but all the<br />
information I had gave compatibility answers in terms of "Fedora Core."<br />
I can tell that it is related, but I couldn't make the conversion to<br />
figure out if it was actually compatible.</p>

<p>I got hubby on the job, and he determined that it was compatible<br />
once we updated some files...which then persistently refused to update<br />
properly. He spent an hour telling it to update, waiting for it to do<br />
so, and then being told the update failed, without getting a helpful<br />
reason why. He gave up in disgust.</p>

<p>My impression of the Linux-education sites is that there are two<br />
types - the ones that want to teach you how to install and use a<br />
particular flavor, at which point they tell you that it is "just like<br />
Windows" and effectively teach you how to use Windows, or the type that<br />
thing that you're extremely familiar with *nix in general and only need<br />
to know the differences. </p>

<p>I like the idea of future-proofing my hardware by my choice of OS,<br />
but Linux is in a box in my mind labeled "hard." My impression is you<br />
learn it by apprenticeship, not by independant study. Can anyone<br />
recommend a site to begin learning about it? Is it actually helpful to<br />
pretend it is Windows for a while? Or should I put this off until I<br />
know a guru?</p>

<p>*I made these "version names" up. I don't recall what I had.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  3:04 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #216 from Dave Bell</title>
         <description>comment from Dave Bell on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RMK, your stapler problem might be a simple misalignment.</p>

<p>You have a plunger which should press evenly across the top of each<br />
staple, shearing it off the strip, and forcing it donw through the<br />
paper against the anvil which bends the ends over.</p>

<p>The feed-spring should be pushing the strip of staples against a<br />
nice flat surface. But that's often the sides of the carrier assembly<br />
bent over to close the end.</p>

<p>If the bends don't quite match, you have feeding problems.</p>

<p>The detailed construction varies quite a bit, but this sort of misalignment can cause the fault yoiu describe.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  3:21 PM by Dave Bell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #217 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thinking something else with deep value:  Cloth diapers.  When the kid outgrows them, they are wonderful rags, quilting, etc.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  3:22 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:22:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #218 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry @217 -- re cloth diapers. I used them for my two children. I'd<br />
agree that overall they're less wasteful, and probably less<br />
energy-intensive in their production. I did wash them with much hotter<br />
water than the rest of the laundry, but I'm very proud of how little<br />
garbage we produced. We never filled our bin, while our neighbors' were<br />
overflowing. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  3:44 PM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258334</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 15:44:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #219 from Kevin Reid</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin Reid on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the versatility of toaster ovens (re #88, #104):</p>

<p>The frozen-food-in-a-paper-dish that says "Conventional Oven<br />
Directions" / "Microwave Oven Directions" / "Do not use a toaster<br />
oven"? Don't believe it.</p>

<p>Put it inside a baking pan that fits in your toaster oven and is<br />
taller than the frozen dish; place another (shallow) pan on top as a<br />
lid. Ideally both pans should be dark rather than shiny, to absorb the<br />
radiant heat from the oven efficiently. This way, you make a metal box<br />
which acts more like a regular oven with respect to the food inside.</p>

<p>We use this technique all the time and the worst trouble we've had<br />
is things coming out a bit undercooked, which can be adjusted for.<br />
Doing this also saves the preheating time and energy of a full-sized<br />
oven.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  4:09 PM by Kevin Reid&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 16:09:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #220 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>linux is also very forgiving of old hardware, if you use the right distribution.</i></p>

<p>I generally agree, but if you want to run X, watch movies, and<br />
browse with multiple tabs, you still need certain resources and<br />
hardware capabilities. Of course, with Linux, you can (and I do) get by<br />
with a lot less, than with Micro$oft bloatware!<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:02 PM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258336</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #221 from Fragano Ledgister</title>
         <description>comment from Fragano Ledgister on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske #205: Buford Highway contains stretches that are just<br />
plain insanely planned -- high density, no sidewalks, inadequate<br />
transit -- though both MARTA and GCT now provide some service at least.<br />
Jimmy Carter Boulevard is even worse. I get the feeling that nothing is<br />
going to be done since the population in both areas is largely Hispanic<br />
and has therefore been defined by the powers that be as 'alien'. I have<br />
a feeling that somewhere down the road, no pun intended, someone is in<br />
for a big surprise.</p>

<p>In Buckhead, on the other hand, they do want to make it easy for the<br />
servants to get from the bus to the houses that they clean. And they do<br />
want to make it easy to walk from the condo to the supermarket (which<br />
is what the new urbanism seems to be about).</p>

<p>There are a lot of condos springing up in the area where I work,<br />
which is one of the poorer sections of town -- or used to be (the<br />
public housing has now been totally emptied and fenced off, and there's<br />
a lot less derelict private housing left east of Joseph Lowery now than<br />
there was nine years ago). Of course, the current economic crunch has<br />
slowed gentrification down. But we do have sidewalks, and I'm<br />
increasing likely to have to dodge idiots driving Jags, Bentleys and<br />
Rollers.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:22 PM by Fragano Ledgister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258337</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #222 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R. M. Koske @#215:</p>

<p>I've generally been frustrated (and sometimes infuriated) by Red Hat's products, and by their successor Fedora as well.  </p>

<p>The Debian-based distributions are generally much better, and the<br />
Ubuntu varieties are currently the best by far. (Knoppix is pretty good<br />
too.) Ubuntu now has a "try me" Live-CD mode, and Knoppix is primarily<br />
a Live-CD distribution.</p>

<p>Also, the distributions have gotten much better over the past few<br />
years, so these days you rarely need to go "under the hood", much less<br />
reboot the system. </p>

<p>And the "dmesg" output (repeats what zipped by at system startup)<br />
starts right off with both the linux and distribution names and version<br />
numbers.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:27 PM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:27:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #223 from Rosa</title>
         <description>comment from Rosa on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About biking and disabilities - not everyone can ride a bike.<br />
However, you don't have to be in tip-top shape to ride, either. I have<br />
a bursitic hip, wonky lower back, bad knees, and I ride my bike to work<br />
in summer dressed like a girl - skirt, flats, little purse, the whole<br />
deal. <br /><br />
 <br /><br />
It took a few different bikes and a lot of bad attitude from bike shop<br />
workers (No, I will not use clipless pedals. Yes, I want a<br />
step-through. I understand that the other frame would be faster, but it<br />
would cripple me.) But standing up for myself and getting over being<br />
embarrassed (it's not uncommon for me to get off the bike and walk up<br />
hills) made it possible for me to be a regular biker, which has saved<br />
me a ton of money and given me the exercise I need to maintain the<br />
abilities I do have.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:39 PM by Rosa&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258339</link>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 17:39:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #224 from Ralph Giles</title>
         <description>comment from Ralph Giles on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>R. M. Koske</b> @ 215: Well, it's usually easier to learn by<br />
apprenticeship than by self study, regardless of the topic, but giving<br />
up local technical support is a big inconvenience.</p>

<p>Have you played with the vmware images at all? They let you run<br />
linux in a virtual box inside your normal environment. That can be a<br />
good way to learn, and you can reverse the roles later if you decide<br />
you like Linux but don't want to give up your old system entirely.<br />
There are some instructions <a href="http://weblogs.java.net/blog/felipegaucho/archive/2007/04/ubuntu_testdriv.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> and more images <a href="http://www.thoughtpolice.co.uk/vmware/" rel="nofollow">here</a>,<br />
which are also not german by default. Of course, running two operating<br />
systems at once does use more memory and storage, so it will be slower.<br />
Running linux inside windows is free with the vmware player, but doing<br />
the reverse costs money.</p>

<p>As to whether Linux is "hard", it's definitely been improving for<br />
people with a GUI (Windows) instead a Unix background, and recent<br />
vintages are completely usable without resort to the command line. Some<br />
things are different, of course, just like with switching to MacOS, and<br />
that can take some getting used to.</p>

<p>There is an argument that people who love words should prefer the<br />
command line interface because it is so much more expressive. The<br />
visual metaphors used in graphical user interfaces are great for some<br />
things, but mostly they're about limiting what you can tell the<br />
computer to do. That makes them easy to learn, but it's also like<br />
filing out forms instead just saying what want to do.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  5:50 PM by Ralph Giles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #225 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sarah @ 199 ...<br /><br />
<i>I have a really old Singer (made of cast iron, with a crank on one<br />
side), and while it would be nice to be able to serge, I'm pretty happy<br />
with it (plus in the extremely unlikely event of my being attacked<br />
while sewing, I could probably use it as a weapon). My concern is<br />
needle replacement. Anyone know if interchangeability is an issue with<br />
old/new sewing-machine needles?</i></p>

<p>I've had no major issues[0] using modern sewing machine (flat on one<br />
side) needles with any of my singers -- the industrial singers take<br />
needles that have a round shank, though, so that can be an issue.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.antiquesewingmachines.co.uk/britishpage1.htm" rel="nofollow">This page</a><br />
shows a number of handcrank machines -- I have a 27K Sphinx that's very<br />
similar to the second one pictured... the serial number[1] dates it to<br />
~1905.</p>

<p>[0] I have had to futz a bit with how deeply the needle is set, as<br />
far as the length to be sure it picks up the bobbin thread correctly,<br />
but only by tiny futzes.<br /><br />
[1] If you're curious, <a href="http://singerco.com/support/serial_numbers.html" rel="nofollow">Singer finally posted their list of serial numbers to years/locations made</a>.<br />
They also have (only for the single-letter-prefix group, as far as I<br />
can tell), a serial number-to-model set of PDFs for some of the serial<br />
numbers.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  6:38 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 18:38:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #226 from Carolyn I</title>
         <description>comment from Carolyn I on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I've never had a car!  So I don't know what I am missing.  I've been using the same bike that I bought in 1991.</p>

<p>Carolyn:)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  7:11 PM by Carolyn I&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #227 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heresiarch@204: <i>FPGA's sound fascinating</i></p>

<p>The problem with FPGA's is they will always, by design, be more<br />
expensive and fewer usable gates than an ASIC. The ability to reprogram<br />
an FPGA adds a <i>phenomenal</i> amount of overhead, which leaves only<br />
a fraction of the total chip to be used for the logic that the user<br />
actually wants to implement. We recently purchased an FPGA to implement<br />
a single core on one of our ASICs. The core was rather large and<br />
required high frequencies, and the FPGA ended up costing $1,500. For<br />
one FPGA. Our ASIC, when finally implemented, included this core and<br />
probably two dozen other cores. Our chip, in quantity, sold for $15.<br />
Two orders of magnatude difference in price. maybe one order of<br />
magnatude difference in functionality.</p>

<p>If one were to continue the "gravity" analogy, with ASIC's being the<br />
rockets capable of lifting heavy satelites to geosynchronous orbits,<br />
then FPGA's are more like amateur rocket enthusiasts who can throw a<br />
digital camera just above the atmosphere. Whatever an FPGA can do, an<br />
ASIC can do better and cheaper, because of all that reprogrammability<br />
overhead. And the only way to improve FPGAs is to improve ASICs, which<br />
means ASICs will always be above an FPGA.</p>

<p>If there is going to be a shift anytime soon, it will probably be in<br />
the realm of generic embedded processors getting fast enough and cheap<br />
enough that you could buy a generic embedded processor chip with some<br />
programable IO pins and some internal logic, and then implement all<br />
your specific functionality in software.</p>

<p>This is how your remote controls pretty much all work now. Some<br />
generic embedded processor that is just smart enough and just fast<br />
enough to toggle your infrared LED to change channels or control the<br />
volume. The problem then is getting generic hardware to do the<br />
application specific stuff. Digital camera needs an image sensor. Not<br />
going to find that on a generic processor chip. MP3 players are<br />
probably at the point where you could implement one with a generic<br />
processor chip. </p>

<p>The requirement for this is that whatever application you have in<br />
mind, there needs to be a generic embedded processor that's fast enough<br />
to do it. I think more and more applications are falling into this<br />
category.</p>

<p>If you need to toggle a couple bits in a semi-smart fashion, you can<br />
buy a little PIC. They're available in as small a package as 8 pins and<br />
can cost less than a buck.</p>

<p>ANother alternative is Asic On Demand. This has been the holy grail<br />
of professors getting research grants to look into what it would take<br />
to make some sort of generic "box" that you could download a design<br />
into, and the box would fabricate the asic one semiconductor layer at a<br />
time. (ignoring the hazardous chemicals you'd be messing with for the<br />
moment.) I've seen blurbs about these things for as long as I can<br />
remember. So far, they're all turned out to be pipedreams. Building an<br />
ASIC is <i>hard</i>. There are timing issues and placement issues and<br />
RF issues and crosstalk issues and power issues that are complicated<br />
enough that people can specilize their entire career into dealing with<br />
one of these specific issues. The software tools that they use cost<br />
millions of dollars, and for all that money, are extremely dumb. If you<br />
can build a 3-d printer that can build an asic, you need something that<br />
can lay down a beam of material that's only nanometers wide. ASIC<br />
fabrication plants can churn out thousands of chips every day. A<br />
fabricator would have to be able to maintain this level of<br />
manufacturing, otherwise, ASIC's still win the gravity well race.</p>

<p>as a counter example, we've had automobiles for about a century.<br />
They're complicated machines. They require a lot of design work.<br />
Manufacturing is a massive undertaking. And yet most people don't<br />
entertain the idea of poeple being able to have a "car manufacturing<br />
plant in a box" thingy. The only way people can even entertain such an<br />
idea is if you get into a Star Trek world and make it something like a<br />
transporter, replicator, holodeck combination of handwavium.</p>

<p>I'm not sure why people are so much more predisposed to entertaining<br />
the idea of asics that build other asics, or an asic-on-demand box. I<br />
can only assume its because the sheer complexity of ASIC design and<br />
fabrication is so concealed from the average user that folks can<br />
imagine it being far, far easier than it really is.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  8:20 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #228 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#209, Ursula L - </p>

<p>I love it.</p>

<p>#216, Dave Bell -</p>

<p>Wow, thanks! My first look at the thing suggests that if that is the<br />
problem, it is unfixable - the ends of the carriage assembly are bent<br />
and then the whole thing was chromed*. I don't think I'll be able to<br />
bend them any more. I don't think I see a misalignment, but I'll look<br />
again when I have more time.</p>

<p>*Or made shiny, anyway.</p>

<p>#221, Fragano - Yes, exactly.  To pretty much all of it.</p>

<p>#222, David Harmon -</p>

<p>That's very helpful, thanks. I've got a memory stick with a Live-CD<br />
version of something-or-other. Ubuntu, if I had to guess. Maybe I'll<br />
try that.</p>

<p>I don't really feel like I'm trying to go under the hood so much -<br />
all I wanted to do was to be able to install programs and that was<br />
where I got thwarted. I haven't given up. (dmesg at the command line, I<br />
assume?)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  8:30 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #229 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#224 - Ralph Giles - </p>

<p>Vmware images? No. As I mentioned somewhere above, I've got a memory<br />
stick that I can put into the computer and boot to Linux, but that and<br />
the pre-existing box are all I've got.</p>

<p>Is running it inside Windows inherently better or worse than doing<br />
the Live-CD thing? I think I'd just as soon dual-boot (that's the right<br />
term, yes?) because I keep a ridiculous number of tabs open in Firefox.<br />
That's both likely to impair the performance of the computer when it is<br />
under a heavy computing load and to make a crash more costly than I<br />
like.</p>

<p>The interface thing is interesting. I use a non-GUI interface for a<br />
program at work, but I haven't ever used a command line for anything<br />
else. Using the command line at work puts me in a weird mental place<br />
with regard to my opinion of the supposed expressiveness of the command<br />
line. I've learned a lot of the shortcuts in our program and use them<br />
instead of working my way through menus (which is what most of my<br />
co-workers do.) I'd much rather type <br /><br />
"avdm" than "F3, F3, 27 (enter) 11 (enter)", so I think I see the<br />
distinction between "filling out forms" and just saying what you want.<br />
Even so, I'm not sure that I can see myself choosing a command line<br />
when there's a GUI available. Maybe partially because the actions I can<br />
imagine myself doing most often would require me to know filenames and<br />
type them in accurately. That's unlikely.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  8:50 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #230 from John Chu</title>
         <description>comment from John Chu on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#204: Tom@210 and Greg@227 are on the mark about FPGAs. I think your scenario is only plausible if</p>

<p>1. we've run out of process improvements, but haven't replaced CMOS with some other technology. (i.e., Moore's Law breaks down)</p>

<p>2. we value reconfiguration, field upgrade, and repair over<br />
continued miniaturization and integration. (i.e., exactly the opposite<br />
of how consumers behave now)</p>

<p>FPGAs are like the POD (the printing technology, not the so-called<br />
business model) of electronics. For some niche applications, they're<br />
the perfect thing to use. So far, they don't lend themselves to high<br />
volume general application. They have to get much cheaper, and the NRE<br />
costs of a new ASIC have to get yet higher. I think it's plausible if<br />
densities have gotten so high, that we don't have anything better to do<br />
than to use extra transistors to allow for reconfiguration. Right now,<br />
a decrease in feature size often means we fit more dies on a wafer. The<br />
chip, ideally, becomes cheaper to produce. (So, your scenario has to be<br />
one where making chips smaller does not make the chip noticeably<br />
cheaper.)</p>

<p>The other thing that occurred to me that you're suggesting, in a nutshell:</p>

<p>Lots of interchangeable elements which you can reprogram and reconnect on demand to suit any application.</p>

<p>You've just described the technology in any SF story about The<br />
Singularity. (Hey, maybe The Singularity happens when high volume FPGAs<br />
are practical...)</p>

<p><br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  9:23 PM by John Chu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #231 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GUIs are not inherently equivalent.</p>

<p>Linux, any unix, makes a whole bunch of different fundamental<br />
assumptions than Windows does, and just because the GUIs can be similar<br />
doesn't mean it actually works like Windows.</p>

<p>People get into serious trouble equating the GUIs, because what they<br />
think what they are doing means and what it actually means tend to<br />
differ.</p>

<p>Installing programs in any modern linux is a question of getting<br />
them from a package repository; there is very likely a GUI app, but<br />
without some idea which distribution you're using, guessing which GUI<br />
app isn't going to be very effective.</p>

<p>Terry, way back up in 143 --</p>

<p>I can do a lot of stuff like that, too; have used 19th century farm<br />
tools and tech for real, have lots of general woodworking skills, etc.</p>

<p>I don't think it actually matters, as a survival strategy; general<br />
loss of the machine culture leaves effectively everybody dead, because<br />
most regions with dense populations are two orders of magnitude over<br />
their non-machine carrying capacity.</p>

<p>For coping with a stutter, yes; have water on hand, have water<br />
filters, have kerosene lanterns, food, shovels, and so on. But a real<br />
collapse? To a first approximation, there won't be anything like enough<br />
food, and there aren't any social systems for selecting who goes off<br />
and politely and quietly starves to death. There are also vicious nasty<br />
questions of timing about things like putting in crops and getting in<br />
fuel.</p>

<p>While I think being part of the machine culture is an excellent<br />
thing, as well as a present necessity, I think not being part of the <i>consumer</i><br />
culture as a matter of default expectation is a very good thing, but<br />
that's in many ways because the consumer culture is trying its dead<br />
level best to make you really really insecure.</p>

<p>Being able to do real stuff, and making to a greater extent own<br />
personal choices about wants and desires, I think that's an excellent<br />
good thing as a way to stay out of the consumer culture; as a way to<br />
replace the machine culture? I don't think it's in the running.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008  9:55 PM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #232 from affreca</title>
         <description>comment from affreca on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My favorite bit of underused old tech is a clothes line. A bit of<br />
coated wire hanging between the garage and the house, and I can use<br />
solar energy without a collector. It doesn't work in all weather, but<br />
the benefit of the midcontinent's changing weather is that I usually<br />
have one day a week warm and dry enough. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:16 PM by affreca&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #233 from Edward Oleander</title>
         <description>comment from Edward Oleander on  2.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We got a couple of the crank-powered LED flashlights from <a href="http://www.llbean.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?page=wind-n-go-flashlight&amp;categoryId=43010&amp;storeId=1&amp;catalogId=1&amp;langId=-1&amp;parentCategory=9728&amp;cat4=9923&amp;shop_method=pp&amp;feat=9728-tn" rel="nofollow">LL Bean</a> and they work great. They have two settings using one or three LEDs and have even light that lasts a fair while.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  2, 2008 10:36 PM by Edward Oleander&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #234 from Diatryma</title>
         <description>comment from Diatryma on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It turns out that my first lasting fountain pen was a Parker Vector.<br />
I dropped it a lot, taped the cap back together a couple times and the<br />
barrel once, and the nib was bent to be... idiosyncratic, let us say,<br />
but boy did that pen do its job. I dropped it in the woods once, nearly<br />
cried, and then my lab teacher chanced upon it a couple days later.<br />
Loved that pen and felt guilty for switching to the more-right-feeling<br />
Waterman.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:06 AM by Diatryma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:06:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #235 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There's been so much said about bicycle power here that I now find myself thinking of Edward G.Robinson in <i>Soylent Green</i>.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:29 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #236 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graydon: Well, I happen to live close enough to wilderness that I<br />
have, tolerable, expectations of being able to hie me to the hills<br />
(with some extra people) and enough gear to get by for 1-3 years.</p>

<p>Pack animals are wonderful things, and we can be in the hills, absent riding them, in about four hours.</p>

<p>If we're ponying, it's an hour.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:38 AM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #237 from Marilee</title>
         <description>comment from Marilee on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Tom Womack</b>, #192. The wind-up flashlight I have has three<br />
LEDs (and you can cycle through 1, 3, and off) and winding 30 seconds<br />
gives you 15 minutes of light. Mine also has a radio. I think we may be<br />
speaking of different types of wind-up flashlights.</p>

<p><b>Terry</b>, #212, I haven't ridden a bike as an adult, so I don't<br />
know about that, but my van has been hit three times -- twice by people<br />
not paying attention who don't brake soon enough, and once by a woman<br />
who was <i>sure</i> I was going to turn into the shopping center she<br />
wanted to come out of, and I had planned to pass by the entrance. All<br />
three times there wasn't any damage to the van. I haven't run into<br />
anybody.</p>

<p><b>R.M. Koske</b>, #228, I was going to suggest what Dave said about<br />
the stapler, but there can also be something stuck in the stapler that<br />
is bending the staple wrong. Is this a new batch of staples, by any<br />
chance? Not all staples fit in all staplers, even when they say they do.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:27 AM by Marilee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #238 from Ralph Giles</title>
         <description>comment from Ralph Giles on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>R. M. Koske</b> @ 229: It's not better or worse, just different.<br />
Running them in parallel lets you switch more quickly, without closing<br />
your 11 browser tabs. It lets you cut and paste between the two, which<br />
can be handy. That sort of thing. But dual booting (or separate<br />
hardware) works too.</p>

<p>Re the command line, I guess I do keep more of the directory<br />
structure in my head on machines where I use the terminal. One has to<br />
understand the filing system, as it were. But auto-completion (try<br />
hitting <i>tab</i> after the first few letters) means not having to<br />
always type things correctly, or even having more than a vague idea<br />
what they are, and it's not like you can't search for things.</p>

<p>But, I don't use a terminal-window for web browsing. There are definitely places where point-and-click is better.</p>

<p>There is a deeper sense in which the unix tradition is more amenable<br />
to the current topic. Traditionally, configuration is stored in text<br />
files, which can be directly edited by humans. The scriptability of<br />
things is more obvious and accessible. The system contains its own<br />
documentation, so it's easy to learn and explore, rather than being<br />
dependent on experts whether you want to be or not. When combined with<br />
complete source code like the Linux distributions provide, you really<br />
have something that can be maintained by anyone with the proper skill,<br />
and that makes acquiring that skill possible within itself. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  2:10 AM by Ralph Giles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #239 from heresiarch</title>
         <description>comment from heresiarch on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Tom Womack @ 210:</b> <i>"But that fifty-dollar versus fifty-cent thing means they're almost by definition used in niche applications."</i></p>

<p>How big of a time gap does that money gap translate into? Like, how<br />
many years back do you have to go before an ASIC chip with the same<br />
capabilities as your modern $50 FPGA also cost fifty dollars? Are we<br />
talking a year, or a decade?</p>

<p><b>Greg London @ 227:</b> <i>"If there is going to be a shift<br />
anytime soon, it will probably be in the realm of generic embedded<br />
processors getting fast enough and cheap enough that you could buy a<br />
generic embedded processor chip with some programable IO pins and some<br />
internal logic, and then implement all your specific functionality in<br />
software."</i></p>

<p>Ah, that's much more like what I had in mind. I can imagine a<br />
generic interface being built to connect and parallel process however<br />
many of Cheap Enough Processor you need for application X, along with<br />
connecting it to whatever specialized chips you need (camera sensor,<br />
etc.)</p>

<p>How do processors compare with ASICs financially?</p>

<p><i>"If you can build a 3-d printer that can build an asic, you need<br />
something that can lay down a beam of material that's only nanometers<br />
wide. ASIC fabrication plants can churn out thousands of chips every<br />
day. A fabricator would have to be able to maintain this level of<br />
manufacturing, otherwise, ASIC's still win the gravity well race."</i></p>

<p>Yeah, as neat and exciting as the recent progress of fabrication<br />
technology is, using it to make chips in your basement seems to involve<br />
ridiculously high amounts of hand-wavium. It'll happen if/when nanotech<br />
happens, I think.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  2:47 AM by heresiarch&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #240 from Alan Braggins</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Braggins on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#237 different types of wind-up torch: yes, ones with rechargeable<br />
batteries will die as the batteries eventually die and fail to hold a<br />
charge (and cheap ones won't let you easily change the batteries),<br />
cheap ones without batteries and with a relatively small capacitor will<br />
slowly fade immediately you stop winding them (or shaking them), ones<br />
with clockwork-like mainsprings or with high quality supercapacitors<br />
and current regulation circuits will give an even light for some time<br />
after winding with indefinite shelf life, but will cost more to start<br />
with.</p>

<p>Crossing LED technology with bicycles, modern dynamo[1] lights are a <em>huge</em><br />
improvement on old ones, and anyone with a utility city bike should<br />
seriously consider a hub dynamo. Modern dynamo lights generally (at<br />
least as an option) have standlight functionality that means they don't<br />
just go out as soon as you stop moving.</p>

<p>[1] a word here meaning "permanent magnet alternator without field<br />
coils", not "direct current generator" (though of course the LEDs need<br />
DC, unlike the old bulbs, the rectifying is done outside).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  8:45 AM by Alan Braggins&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #241 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#231, Graydon -</p>

<p>So that's a definite argument in favor of playing with a pre-set<br />
version of Linux* to get accustomed to the GUI quirks. I sort of feel<br />
I'm better prepared for those than I used to be - instead of being just<br />
a Windows person, I now use OSX on the Mac regularly too, so I have a<br />
vague idea of the kinds of differences you mean.</p>

<p><i>Installing programs in any modern linux is a question of getting<br />
them from a package repository; there is very likely a GUI app, but<br />
without some idea which distribution you're using...</i> </p>

<p>I followed that part of your statement. But "...guessing which GUI<br />
app isn't going to be very effective," doesn't make any sense in<br />
context for me. I didn't think you needed to know which GUI app you had<br />
to install a program. That was part of my frustration when I fought<br />
with it. I could get the GUI to tell me what it was, but not the<br />
distro. Or you just pointing out something that I pretty much<br />
understand, assuming I might not understand it? I do appreciate that.</p>

<p>#238, Ralph Giles - </p>

<p>I'm not as worried about remembering the filing system as I am<br />
simply remembering what I named the darn things. But I imagine there'd<br />
be a great deal of incentive in a command-line system to use consistent<br />
and logical file/folder names. And you can make it cough up a list,<br />
though if you have to do that often, the command line loses some of its<br />
elegance.</p>

<p>I think I might have observed my husband using the "tab to complete<br />
the line" trick, but I'd completely forgotten it existed. That helps a<br />
lot. </p>

<p>I definitely like the "configuration stored in text files" bit, but<br />
I must say that "the system contains its own documentation, so it is<br />
easy to learn and explore" seems a bit off to me. I'm not disputing you<br />
- I believe you. With the right knowledge going in, I bet it is<br />
amazing. But my experience makes it hard to believe. I'm guessing you<br />
mean that the documentation is inline with the code, and all I have to<br />
do is open it with a text editor to read it? Interesting. No one told<br />
me that before, and it is very very deep value. Logical (once<br />
explained.) Possibly easy. (Once explained.) But the explanation is<br />
mandatory, or it isn't either one. </p>

<p>I'm gonna drop it now - I don't wanna make this any more "Teach me<br />
Linux!" than it already has been. Plus I'm still a bit resentful of the<br />
number of times I've been told it is easy (no offense to anyone who's<br />
said it here) and found it impenetrable. The new info you guys have<br />
given me may very well help with that, but I'm afraid that if I don't<br />
go play with it a bit first, my resentment will sour the conversation. </p>

<p>I'm deeply grateful for the help and info, and I will definitely play with Linux some more.  Thanks to everyone.</p>

<p>*I don't think I've managed to type "Linux"[1] yet without first typing "Linus" and correcting.</p>

<p>[1] Okay, I succeeded that time.  But I had to go really slow to do it.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  8:53 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #242 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heresiarch@239: <i>How do processors compare with ASICs financially?</i></p>

<p>processors <i>are</i> ASICs. The issue becomes more of a matter of<br />
whether or not the application can be handled by a processor or whether<br />
you need special hardware logic to deal with it. And that is more a<br />
matter of whether your application hits some sort of orbital limit that<br />
makes Moore's Law no longer apply for some reason.</p>

<p>TV remote controls are handled by extremely cheap embedded<br />
processors. Even the smart, universal, programmable ones. The job is<br />
just so simple that you don't need special hardware to keep up.</p>

<p>Other limits would be like the CD Burner issue. Except CD burners<br />
were always made out of dedicated hardware because no processor could<br />
keep up.</p>

<p>But your TIVO box is a Linux machine, mostly with generic hardware<br />
and specific software written to do it's job. So the bandwidth and<br />
processing power to do that job is low enough that a general processor<br />
and software can keep up.</p>

<p>But that doesn't help much for your portable MP3 player, since you<br />
won't want a linux box strapped to your hip. Same goes for a digital<br />
camera.</p>

<p>portable electronics have features that include "small" and "long<br />
battery life" that often makes them more suited for ASICs. you put in<br />
just the hardware you need, and you can design it so that you can shut<br />
down pieces that you don't need.</p>

<p></p>

<p><br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  8:54 AM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #243 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#232, affreca - I've never used an outdoor clothesline, but I want<br />
one. Whether they're allowed will definitely be something I'll be<br />
considering when/if we buy a house. Right now I'm using an indoor<br />
drying rack with pretty good success.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  9:34 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #244 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske @# 228,229</p>

<p><i>(dmesg at the command line, I assume?)</i></p>

<p>Yeah.  I find a few major cases where having a command line is critically important:</p>

<p>1) Finding programs you surely have on the system, but rarely use,<br />
or haven't had occasion to use before. Commands like "apropos",<br />
"which", and so on, let you "poke around" to find things, without<br />
having to dig through umpteen windows and cascaded menus. The "See<br />
Also" section of manpages is helpful as well. Command line is also good<br />
for quick information, like "how much disk do I have free?" (df), and<br />
"What just filled up my home partition?" (du | sort -n | tail)</p>

<p>2) Impromptu logic and stream processing. For example, suppose I've<br />
got a huge pile of downloaded files, which I can see by the filenames<br />
fall into natural groups, but the downloader dumped them into a flat<br />
directory, and maybe the names aren't quite regular....</p>

<p>Feeding the output of "ls" to tools such as "grep", "tr", and so on,<br />
lets me rapidly select subsets of the files, fix the case of filenames,<br />
sort them into directories, and so forth. (Nowadays, the BSD-style<br />
filters "cut", "paste", and "colrm" simplify much of what I would once<br />
have done with the intimidating "sed".) </p>

<p>Using "for" and "while" loops lets me chain together a bunch of<br />
tools and run them over a group of files, maybe with some &amp;&amp;<br />
chaining to back off when something fails.</p>

<p>For example: "par2" verifies checksums on downloaded files, and uses<br />
.par2 and .PAR2 checksum files to correct damage. In less than a<br />
minute, I can write, test, and run a "for" loop to run through a bunch<br />
of .par2 files, verifying each set of files. If and only if "par2"<br />
succeeds, delete the (now-redundant) checksum files, and go on to<br />
"unrar" to unpack the archive. If and only if "unrar" succeeds, delete<br />
that archive, and so on. Then while that's running, I can go make a<br />
sandwich, and come back to verified and unpacked files.</p>

<p>Just <b>try</b> doing that with a GUI, any GUI!<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:39 AM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #245 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I wrote that last comment before I saw #241.  I'll release the hijacked thread now.  ;-)<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:44 AM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #246 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M Koske in 241 --</p>

<p>The different distros have different package managers, so, for<br />
instance, a Debian derived distro (such as Ubuntu or Kubuntu) will use<br />
the Debian package management system, which is called "apt", and one or<br />
another apt GUI front ends, such as "synaptic". A Redhat/Fedora distro<br />
will have a different package management system -- in the current<br />
Fedora case, yum, and I have no idea what the GUI is called because I<br />
never use it.</p>

<p>So you do need to know the name of the package manager to know the<br />
name of the command to set it off; synaptic won't work on a Fedora<br />
system (in the simple case, anyway) and yum won't work on a Debian or<br />
Debian-derived system.</p>

<p>The actual package <i>source</i> can probably be compiled on both without issues, but you almost certainly don't want to do that.</p>

<p>Two essential, essential things about Unixes and names -- "strong<br />
minds, weak typing", and puns. So there are rarely vowels if there<br />
don't have to be vowels, and you get things like yacc ("yet another<br />
compiler compiler", really a parser generator) having a GNU<br />
version/clone/functional equivalent called "bison", because a bison is<br />
kinda like a yak...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:51 AM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #247 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graydon: I thought the plural of 'Unix' was 'Unices'. And of course<br />
you know that the name 'Unix' is itself a pun, right? There was an<br />
older operating system called Multix of which Unix was supposedly a<br />
(wait for it) castrated version.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 11:50 AM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #248 from John Chu</title>
         <description>comment from John Chu on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#239:<em>I can imagine a generic interface being built to connect<br />
and parallel process however many of Cheap Enough Processor you need<br />
for application X</em></p>

<p>As a side note, one of the discussions during ISCA 2006 walked<br />
through the important, difficult problems in computer architecture. One<br />
of them is that we don't have an easy, general, paradigm for writing<br />
efficient parallel programs. (This is not the same as saying we don't<br />
have paradigms for writing parallel programs. We do. We're just not<br />
happy with them, in general.)</p>

<p>So, yes, there is the hardware problem of having lots of cheap<br />
powerful computational units in the first place. However, there is also<br />
the software problem of figuring out how to get all of those units to<br />
cooperate with each other usefully. We do well with embarrassingly<br />
parallelizable problems. (e.g, go off to do X, then come back to me<br />
with your answer.) We do less well if the various computational units<br />
actually need to talk to each other in the course of doing their task.</p>

<p>#247: I've always used "unixes." Wikipedia also lists "unices" and<br />
"unixen." However, I have a natural aversion to treating English words<br />
as if they were Latin. (Don't get me started on "virus," which,<br />
according to my Latin dictionary, means "bog", and is defective, having<br />
no natural plural forms anyway.) I haven't decided how I feel about<br />
treating English words as Anglo-Saxon.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 11:54 AM by John Chu&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #249 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Economist ran a story recently describing <a href="http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10789282" rel="nofollow">portable light</a>,<br />
i.e. a fabric which combines solar cells and LED's. The fabric is sewn<br />
into a bag form, which one carries around all day, and in the evening<br />
you have light -- 10 hrs of light for 3 hrs of sunshine, according to<br />
the article. Pretty nifty idea, at least on the surface (and I claim NO<br />
expertise). But one thing that amazed me is the cost -- about $50 for<br />
one of these bags, less than the yearly cost for batteries, candles,<br />
etc. in developing countries. That price seems insanely low somehow --<br />
I wonder why the manufacturing costs are so low?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:07 PM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #250 from Sam Kelly</title>
         <description>comment from Sam Kelly on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heresiarch at 239: <em>[Basement chip fab will] happen if/when nanotech happens, I think.</em></p>

<p>Nanotech is fast becoming a meaningless word - the field of "stuff<br />
controlled on the molecular level" is still at the stage where there<br />
are a lot of incredibly varied possibilities, and some of them even<br />
work. We've got MIT-style cogwheels (cogwheels, I ask you... they're<br />
practically steampunk), really cool zeolites, functionalisable<br />
sputtered sulphur-on-gold fields, and utterly smooth and regular<br />
Langmuir-Blodgett films.</p>

<p>Going by the strictest definition, recent chip designs are about as<br />
nanotechnological as it gets. The thingy itself is large enough to see<br />
&amp; hold, but the working parts inside it are very much on the<br />
molecular scale. (For a quick reference, 1 nanometre == 10 ångströms ==<br />
about 10 atoms.)</p>

<p>Being able to deposit single atoms exactly where we want them in a<br />
reliably repeatable manner would be really nice, but we can't yet.<br />
It'll be a few years before it gets to the point of industrial use, and<br />
given the prerequisites (hard and Extremely Cold vacuum, mostly) we<br />
might never see a desktop version.</p>

<p>R. M. Koske at 241: some Unixen, not all, do make it easy. I started<br />
running Kubuntu recently, and their start-menu equivalent has a<br />
prominent Add/Remove Programs option - that automatically runs a GUI<br />
package manager which gives you a menu of things it knows about and can<br />
retrieve from the internet. It doesn't know about all of them, but it<br />
makes most things easy.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:33 PM by Sam Kelly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #251 from Kevin Riggle</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin Riggle on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske @241: <i>but I must say that "the system contains its own<br />
documentation, so it is easy to learn and explore" seems a bit off to<br />
me. I'm not disputing you - I believe you. With the right knowledge<br />
going in, I bet it is amazing. But my experience makes it hard to<br />
believe. I'm guessing you mean that the documentation is inline with<br />
the code, and all I have to do is open it with a text editor to read it?</i></p>

<p>Not quite.[1] At least with command-line tools, all the widely-used<br />
ones install what are called man pages (short for manual pages), which<br />
can be accessed by typing "man <i>command-name</i>" at the prompt, eg.<br />
"man df", which give you a lot of information about how to use the<br />
programs. ("Program" and "command" are more-or-less synonymous.) All<br />
the major GUI desktop environments (Gnome, KDE) provide their own help<br />
systems, much like Windows does, but I personally find I rarely have to<br />
consult it. You're right, though, that the existence of man pages is<br />
not intuitively obvious -- it's one of the two or three pieces of<br />
knowledge that are essential to bootstrapping a working knowledge of<br />
the command line. I bet Linux distributions could do a better job<br />
disseminating that information.</p>

<p>Graydon @246 in re: R.M. Koske: <i>So you do need to know the name<br />
of the package manager to know the name of the command to set it off;<br />
synaptic won't work on a Fedora system (in the simple case, anyway) and<br />
yum won't work on a Debian or Debian-derived system.</i></p>

<p>Err, in these halcyon days of Linux usability, if you're running<br />
from the GUI, you don't even have to know what the package manager is<br />
called. (You don't even have to know what a "package manager", or a<br />
"package", is.) In Ubuntu, you should be able to find it in two minutes<br />
of playing around with a fresh install -- it's literally two clicks<br />
away, under Applications-&gt;Add/Remove... (The problem with asking us<br />
old-time Linux grognards for help is that we'll tell you how *we* do<br />
whatever you're asking, which may no longer be the easiest or most<br />
logical way to do it. :-)</p>

<p>In this, as in a number of things, I personally find that, much like<br />
with Mac OS X, once you've learned the simple visual language of<br />
Ubuntu's GUI, it's substantially easier to use, more intuitive, and<br />
more consistent than the Windows GUI. (I punted Fedora Core in favor of<br />
Ubuntu a year ago and haven't looked back. Think of Fedora as "Linux<br />
Corporate Edition" and Ubuntu as... not "Linux Home Edition", more<br />
"Linux Not-Corporate Edition", and not any less powerful either.)<br />
Getting used to Linux still takes some work, but it takes a lot less<br />
than it used to, and if you're a tinkerer or an explorer it may even be<br />
*fun* work. I heartily encourage you to play around with a Ubuntu<br />
LiveCD and see if you like it. And if not, that's fine -- if Windows<br />
works for you, it works. :-)</p>

<p>[1] Documentation for programmers *is* usually inlined with the code, but that's waaaay beyond the scope of this post.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:39 PM by Kevin Riggle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #252 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John 248: Please consider the source on this. I'm the guy who BOTH<br />
refers to a single Kleenex™ tissue as "a Kleenek" AND calls more than<br />
one of the things "Kleenices."</p>

<p>I wasn't being remotely serious, in other words.</p>

<p>But being a bit more serious, I do think that '-ices' has become a<br />
standard English plural for words ending in '-ex'. Please note that I<br />
said A standard, not THE standard. I'm still being silly when I say, as<br />
I did yesterday, "Most dominatrices seem to be called 'Mistress'<br />
whatever."</p>

<p>As for the Anglo-Saxon...well, we do have plurals with '-en' in<br />
standard English: 'oxen', 'children'. And we already have some words<br />
that are distinguished only in the plural: one dwarf, two dwarves if<br />
you're talking about another species, or dwarfs if you're talking about<br />
humans afflicted with genetic dwarfism. So I don't object to calling<br />
more than one box "boxen" when they're computers, and "boxes" when<br />
they're the boxes the boxen came in!</p>

<p>That said, 'unixen' does seem kinda stoopid.  </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:39 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #253 from Xopher</title>
         <description>comment from Xopher on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ooop, Sam, no offense meant.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 12:41 PM by Xopher&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #254 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#245, David Harmon -</p>

<p>No worries (at least from me) - I think answering questions already<br />
asked allows for nicely-tied ends on a conversation, even if it is cut<br />
short. </p>

<p>And wow, that is definitely elegant use of the command line.  Intimidating, but nice.</p>

<p>#246 - Graydon -</p>

<p>I believe the Gnome is one of the redhat/fedora GUIs.  That was what was on the system I fought with.</p>

<p>And I'm sorry. I follow what you're saying, but I'm not sure how it<br />
relates to #241. Or maybe I only think I follow what you're saying.</p>

<p>One thing I'm not clear on - is the package manager system like the<br />
GUI - a separate choice made by the OS installer, and you have<br />
different ones that work with different distros, or is it more like<br />
"Macs use stuffed files and Windows use zipped files" (in other words,<br />
an OS choice that is "hardwired")?</p>

<p>And I'm terrible at cutting off a conversation, apparently, because<br />
I also want to know - why wouldn't I want to compile a Fedora source on<br />
a Debian system if it will work without issues?</p>

<p>#251 - Kevin Riggle - Ah. Okay. That's extremely useful. (I think<br />
I'll be scraping this thread into a text file for future reference!)</p>

<p>This is the sort of thing that I find so weird about my previous<br />
attempts to learn Linux from online sources, alone. I've never heard of<br />
this. Maybe I tuned out on the more techy pages too easily, but...<br />
*shrugs*</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:02 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #255 from Mary Aileen</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Aileen on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Debbie (249): That is immensely cool. I wonder if the fabric would<br />
be any good for clothes. Quilts? Rag dolls? The crafter in me is<br />
twitching.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:03 PM by Mary Aileen&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258371</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #256 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#237, Marilee -</p>

<p>The staper is new-to-me (and better than my previous one) and has<br />
done this as long as I've had it, so I don't know if brand matters here<br />
or not. The stapler is a Swingline and the staples Bostitch, so there's<br />
a good possibility it's a problem. It might be worth buying my own box<br />
of staples to see if it makes a difference.</p>

<p>And for a little new non-Linux content:</p>

<p>Here's a trivial thing (staying with office-supplies theme) that I think may potentially have deep value.  <a href="http://www.dahle.com/rotary_sharpeners.htm" rel="nofollow">Dahle pencil sharpeners.</a></p>

<p>In a "fall of civilization" scenario, of course, we'd sharpen our<br />
pencils with knives and call ourselves lucky to have pencils and<br />
knives. But most of the time that's unsatisfactory and impractical. </p>

<p>I don't like using an electric device if I'm capable of doing the<br />
same job with minimal effort non-electrically, so I don't want an<br />
electric pencil sharpener. </p>

<p>I've never found the little single-blade sharpeners to be very<br />
useful. They're portable and non-electric, but they dull (and I'm not<br />
capable of sharpening one, even if I thought it was worth the trouble)<br />
and even when they're sharp, they don't seem to work well if the lead<br />
is off-center in the pencil.</p>

<p>What I want is a hand-crank rotary sharpener that isn't<br />
wall-mounted. (I'm an apartment dweller.) My grandmother had a<br />
wall-mount sharpener mounted on a chunk of 2x4, but it wasn't stable<br />
enough and it was unwieldy. Random googling in frustration turned up<br />
Dahle.</p>

<p>Their sharpeners include a clamp to hold the pencil so that you<br />
don't have to mount the sharpener on anything. You can adjust the<br />
sharpness of the point. Mine came with an item number on the blade<br />
mechanism and the Dahle site says they sell replacement parts, though<br />
prices aren't listed.</p>

<p>I've only had it a couple of years, so I can't speak of durability, but I'm very pleased.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:10 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #257 from NelC</title>
         <description>comment from NelC on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske @203: My guess is that it's a matter of the staple not<br />
having pressure applied evenly so that both sides meet the paper at<br />
once. Either the pusher-plate isn't square to the receiver plate (I'm<br />
making these terms up; I hope you can figure out what I mean) or to the<br />
staple itself; or the receiver plate is uneven; or there's drag on one<br />
side of the channel the stapler goes down. </p>

<p>Try tightening up or oiling everything you can as a first step. Does<br />
the stapler produce neatly-folded staples when there's no paper? Also,<br />
try watching the staple (if you can) while producing just enough<br />
pressure on the handle to break it off its companions. That might give<br />
you some clues. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:14 PM by NelC&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #258 from Caroline</title>
         <description>comment from Caroline on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: the Unix discussion:</p>

<p>I am a 25 year old engineering Ph.D student, which means two things:<br />
1) I have reason and inclination to learn, understand and appreciate<br />
*nixes, and 2) I grew up using Windows and am therefore not fluent in<br />
*nix, learning only what I need to do the parts of my work that<br />
absolutely must be done there.</p>

<p>No, I couldn't bootstrap knowledge of the OS. I did have to learn it<br />
through apprenticeship. It is hard to find things you don't know you<br />
have -- David Harmon @ 244, I know about "apropos" but you still have<br />
to pick the right search terms, and those aren't necessarily intuitive.<br />
I find that GUIs make exploration and discovery considerably easier.</p>

<p>Also, man, while useful for some things, is just confounding for<br />
others. I had to buy a book and lean heavily on the internet, coworkers<br />
and supervisors.</p>

<p>*nix has always struck me as being designed by and for engineers,<br />
which means it has very different design priorities than something like<br />
Mac OS X. Linux and Unix expect users to be willing to bend to the<br />
system and its quirks, rather than being designed to bend to the user's<br />
quirks. This is not necessarily bad, just different.</p>

<p>It is extremely powerful for certain things, as David Harmon noted.<br />
Certain things are just a million times more efficient with a command<br />
line. I can do things with a short shell script that are a pain in the<br />
butt to do using Mac OS X's Automator, or indeed impossible (Automator<br />
doesn't have if-then), and an even more major pain in the butt to do<br />
manually. It depends entirely on how much you need to do those things<br />
whether this is a useful feature for you.</p>

<p>(Since I switched to Mac, I now have both worlds, and I think it's great.)</p>

<p>Now if I can just find out why the backspace key on this machine is<br />
mapped to ` and how to change it back, I'll be a truly happy camper.<br />
(Am using the work Linux box today, not the Mac.) It's been a thorn in<br />
my side for the duration of typing this comment. Have learned that I am<br />
a fast but inaccurate typist.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:17 PM by Caroline&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #259 from Sam Kelly</title>
         <description>comment from Sam Kelly on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#253: None taken, Xopher! 'Unixen' is a hacker's shibboleth, derived<br />
from Vax-&gt;Vaxen (and 'boxen' is an example of the same formation) -<br />
yet another example of the same tendency to extrapolate linguistic<br />
rules beyond all boundaries of sanity, common sense, and everyday<br />
usability.</p>

<p>I quite agree that it sounds silly, but then I think all attempts to pluralize 'Unix' sound silly.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:34 PM by Sam Kelly&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258375</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #260 from Jen Roth</title>
         <description>comment from Jen Roth on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caroline: try "stty erase [hit the backspace key]". Failing that,<br />
"stty erase ^h" (spell out the ^h by actually using the carat, not<br />
hitting control-h) might work.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:39 PM by Jen Roth&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #261 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mary Aileen @255 -- I think it sounds neat, too, on all sorts of levels. Quilts? Good for reading in bed (under the covers)! </p>

<p>I was reading this article in the context of an ESL class with a<br />
group of power plant engineers. They brought up the question of the<br />
(seemingly) low manufacturing costs, and also noted that the fabric was<br />
made into bags and not, say, jackets. I suspect that you probably<br />
*could* make garments out of the material, but that would greatly<br />
increase the costs of mass production.</p>

<p>More info here:<br /><br />
http://www.portablelight.org/</p>

<p>It sounds like they're certainly trying hard to go for deep value.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:40 PM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:40:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #262 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R. M. Koske @256 -- pencil sharpeners. I hatehatehate those tiny<br />
single-blade sharpeners, and we didn't want an electric one either.<br />
Couldn't find a rotary one here in Germany*, so we brought back <em>two</em><br />
when we were in the States a couple of years ago. (Weird vacation<br />
souvenirs, but -- well, that sort of thing is par for our course.) One<br />
is wall-mounted, the other has a suction cup for the table top. That<br />
doesn't work particularly well; a clamp would be better.</p>

<p>*at least when I went to school, every classroom in the US had a<br />
pencil sharpener mounted next to the door. Here, each kid has his/her<br />
own little sharpener that he/she manages to lose at least once during<br />
each school year.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  1:51 PM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #263 from Graydon</title>
         <description>comment from Graydon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Caroline --</p>

<p>I have CAPS LOCK mapped to escape. This often causes interesting<br />
side effects when other people try to use my computer. (Most of the<br />
habitual unix users now know what my default text editor is, and what<br />
it would be if I had CAPS LOCK mapped to control, instead.)</p>

<p>I think the best way to think about unixes in general is that they are the product of two processes.</p>

<p>One is frustrated geniuses, unable to solve a problem of concern to<br />
them, produce a solution and have it reach a stage where it is of<br />
general utility. (This starts with the C programming language, and TeX<br />
is one of the purer examples, but an enormous amount of this goes on.)</p>

<p>Two is different frustrated people, often of similar mental<br />
capacity, trying to make the product of the frustrated genius in item<br />
one usable in the general case, as distinct from applicable to the<br />
general case.</p>

<p>These are both iterative processes, and they chain.</p>

<p>So it's more that the quirks are tolerated until they become either<br />
sacred tradition or someone gets mad and comes up with a better<br />
mousetrap which incidentally better reflects their quirks.</p>

<p>R. M. Koske --</p>

<p>There are four layers.</p>

<p>One layer is the flavour of unix -- Solaris, OpenBSD, NetBSD, the Mac BSD, Linux, etc.</p>

<p>Next layer is the distribution; this is the specific collection of<br />
programs that have been tested to work together. This is the level at<br />
which the package repositories -- the collection of individual programs<br />
-- exist. The programs that manage the repositories are different, and<br />
are different choices by different distributions.<br /><br />
(Many people will call this the operating system; I think it's more<br />
like the species epithet, we know what the genus is (and thus the type<br />
of OS) already.)</p>

<p>Next layer is X11, which is the common window manager system used on<br />
(most but not all; Apple has a different one, frex) Unixes. The open<br />
X11 project forked some years back so there are now two different code<br />
trees implementing the behavior of the X11 standard.</p>

<p>Next layer is the window manager/desktop, which is where Gnome, KDE,<br />
AfterStep, Blackbox, XFCE, et multi cetera come into things.</p>

<p>Since I'm old and somewhat command line focused, I think of things<br />
not in terms of 'oh, well, there's an Add/Remove programs in the right<br />
click', but in terms of "what is the wretched thing called so that I<br />
may invoke it directly?"</p>

<p>And that's where it matters what distro you're using, because the<br />
package management programs will be different, so if you just want to<br />
invoke the wretched thing, you need to know.</p>

<p>Generally distros tell you what they are when they boot, and<br />
otherwise there's a file in /etc with the version in it. (eg,<br />
/etc/fedora-release)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  2:16 PM by Graydon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #264 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R. M. Koske @#254:  <i>One thing I'm not clear on - is the package<br />
manager system like the GUI - a separate choice made by the OS<br />
installer, and you have different ones that work with different<br />
distros, or is it more like "Macs use stuffed files and Windows use<br />
zipped files" (in other words, an OS choice that is "hardwired")?</i></p>

<p>Well, since you're still asking questions.... It's somewhere in<br />
between those. There are two basic sorts of packages: compiled<br />
binaries, and <br /><br />
source code, each with their own issues:</p>

<p>The binaries have compiled-in assumptions about what's already on<br />
the computer, where files are meant to go, and other subtle issues<br />
about the system they're meant for. So if you try to install one on the<br />
wrong system, its chance of actually working is poor, and there's some<br />
chance of disaster (breaking the system). For a while, this was a major<br />
problem, that made precompiling UNIX programs pretty much impractical.<br />
Thankfully, over the past few years, the major "families" (Debian, Red<br />
Hat, Mandrake, etc) have gotten their standards pretty well sorted out<br />
-- and more to the point, they now provide central repositories of<br />
compiled programs, that usually "plug in and work" for systems of their<br />
type. These go along with matching package-management systems that know<br />
where to find the right repositories and how to install the programs<br />
correctly -- for their host system, specifically.</p>

<p><i>why wouldn't I want to compile a Fedora source on a Debian system if it will work without issues?</i></p>

<p>Mostly because that's likely to involve "going under the hood" and dealing with operating system esoterica.  I <b>have</b> dealt with such issues, and I find them frustrating enough that even as an experienced Linux user (and erstwhile programmer), <b>I will avoid them if at all possible</b>.  </p>

<p>The source code packages are theoretically adaptable to any<br />
system... but there's a fair gap between theory and practice, because<br />
many of the differences among systems are things that do in fact affect<br />
compilation, even when you (or I) wouldn't think they ought to. There<br />
are worse problems when it comes to taking your newly compiled program<br />
and installing its various pieces into the proper parts of your system.<br />
So in practice, you still need (a different part of) the package<br />
management system that knows where things are supposed to go. For the<br />
very simplest programs, you may be able to just compile to a single<br />
binary and drop it into one of the .../bin directories, but these days<br />
a lot of programs include libraries, configuration files, datasets, and<br />
other chunks, all of which they need to be able to find after<br />
installation.</p>

<p>The upshot is, that "work without issues" part depends on just how<br />
well the program's author(s) did in terms of making their program<br />
portable. If they messed up anywhere, you get to deal with some really<br />
hairy details about how both the program, and your system, work behind<br />
the scenes. A lot of the "simplicity" up front depends on shoving those<br />
details behind a simpler interface, but that only works if you <b>stay in front</b> of that interface.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  2:46 PM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #265 from Clifton Royston</title>
         <description>comment from Clifton Royston on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin @ 251: Actually, one of the things about Linux that drives me<br />
mad is that the man pages are very poor. Often they're missing, even<br />
for important programs and drivers, or named according to some odd<br />
scheme that makes them difficult to find. Contrast that with any of the<br />
*BSD family of open source systems (FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, et al.)<br />
where everything from command line programs to configuration files to<br />
system calls to device drivers really does have its own man page.</p>

<p>This is part of the difference in philosophy between Linux and the<br />
BSD operating systems - Linux is a operating system kernel, and so<br />
Linux distributions may end up packaged with very different sets of<br />
programs and organized very differently. The BSD systems are complete<br />
operating systems, so if you install FreeBSD (for example) you are<br />
guaranteed that a large number of base commands and functionality, and<br />
their associated documentation, will always be there and always in the<br />
same place.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  2:52 PM by Clifton Royston&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #266 from Clifton Royston</title>
         <description>comment from Clifton Royston on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and Xopher, "Unices" is an equally canonical silly plural for<br />
"Unix". In fact, the mid-80s DEC Posix-compatibility suite for VMS was<br />
called "Eunice".</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  2:57 PM by Clifton Royston&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #267 from Adam Ek</title>
         <description>comment from Adam Ek on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My father recently had my great-great-grandfather's clock fixed<br />
(built in Sweden in 1872). It's still on the wall and needs winding<br />
once a week.</p>

<p>I think some people in this thread may be interested in the Maker<br />
Bill of Rights http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmtorrone/306528267/</p>

<p>I'm still envious of my coworker who got an old belt-drive<br />
Bridgeport milling machine for the cost of hauling it out of a basement.</p>

<p>I'm really mad at my employer for closing down the only mass-transit<br />
accessible buildings in the company. I now have a 42 mile commute each<br />
way until I can manage to sell my house. On the other hand I got rid of<br />
the 22mpg minivan in favor of a 42mpg diesel Beetle. The TDI diesel<br />
should be good for 250,000 miles and can run on biodiesel (way better<br />
energy balance than ethanol).</p>

<p>re post #166: I saw an engineering review in the 90's that stated<br />
that most consumer point and shoots sold and even most low level SLR's<br />
were used for less than 12 rolls of film, 360 shots.</p>

<p>re post #168: I've got an Old Town Tripper canoe. One of the old ads<br />
involved the canoe being thrown off the tall factory roof and then<br />
paddled away. My canoe is still in good condition after 32 years of<br />
hard use. Another testimonial was from one falling off a float plane,<br />
falling 1500 feet and still being usable when they hiked back and found<br />
it</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  3:01 PM by Adam Ek&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #268 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#258, Caroline - Thanks for the confirmation that I wasn't<br />
necessarily just failing to try hard enough. I won't rule it out, but<br />
it feels better to know that someone else found it a non-trivial<br />
undertaking.</p>

<p><br /><br />
#262 - Debbie -</p>

<p>We had those wall-mount sharpeners in school when I was a kid, too.<br />
Lots of people claimed to hate them with all the passion a person under<br />
twenty can muster, but I tended to like them. There were bad apples,<br />
but most of them were excellent.</p>

<p>And I'm not sure I was clear about the sharpener and the clamp. The<br />
clamp holds the pencil into the sharpener. Since you don't need to hold<br />
the pencil in place, you have a hand free and can hold the whole<br />
sharpener in one hand while operating the crank with the other. It<br />
doesn't need to be fastened down at all.</p>

<p>#263, Graydon - Okay, that makes sense.  Thanks.</p>

<p>#264 - David Harmon -</p>

<p>Hey! I followed the paragraph that begins "The binaries..." under my<br />
own steam! Not by assembling definitions and unpacking it carefully,<br />
but by knowing most of the concepts at the beginning. That's a good<br />
feeling, and makes me feel better about my chances of eventually<br />
learning this.</p>

<p>As for the why not compile Fedora source on a Debian system, yes, that is perfectly clear.  Thank you.</p>

<p><br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  3:15 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #269 from Velma</title>
         <description>comment from Velma on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hamadryad @ 213: I actually love the vintage Sheaffer Balances more,<br />
but I have several Pelikan M200s (including the Telekom<br />
magenta-and-grey marbled ones, which are rare), and a 215 -- which is<br />
lovely if you want something the 200 size, but prefer a heavier pen. </p>

<p>(A useful guide for Pelikan sizes is on Richard Binder's site:<br />
www.richardspens.com. I mention Richard a lot when I talk about<br />
fountain pens, not just because he's one of the best at modifying and<br />
repairing pens, but because he has the same sort of cheerful,<br />
passionate enthusiasm for things that many of the people who comment<br />
here do.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  4:34 PM by Velma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258385</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:34:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #270 from Patrick Nielsen Hayden</title>
         <description>comment from Patrick Nielsen Hayden on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linux being one of those subjects that tends to expand to fill all<br />
online discussion space, kudos to the commentariat here for not doing<br />
so.</p>

<p>(signed, guy who currently runs OSX, XP, and Ubuntu on his home desktop...)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  4:54 PM by Patrick Nielsen Hayden&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258386</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:54:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #271 from Diatryma</title>
         <description>comment from Diatryma on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My engineering building has wall-mounted pencil sharpeners. I've<br />
never seen one used-- they are a bit noisy for mid-lecture sharpening.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  5:17 PM by Diatryma&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258387</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 17:17:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #272 from Jason B</title>
         <description>comment from Jason B on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This just in: My wife and I went to Target in Norman, Oklahoma last<br />
week. Be bought twenty-three items. We had forgotten our sturdy<br />
reusable bags.</p>

<p>We got home with 9 plastic bags--fewer than 3 items per bag.</p>

<p>We will not forget the bags again.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  7:21 PM by Jason B&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:21:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #273 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was recently very pleased to discover one of the desk mount,<br />
multiple-pencil-size sharpeners at my local thrift shop. Noisy as all<br />
get out, sure... but now I'm back to using sharp pencils, instead of<br />
trying to remember the last place I saw my pencil-case sharpener, or<br />
tracking down 0.5mm leads...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  7:25 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258389</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #274 from Ralph Giles</title>
         <description>comment from Ralph Giles on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Clifton @ 265</b>: No kidding. It doesn't help that most Linux<br />
distributions get a good chunk of their utilities from the GNU project<br />
(hence GNU/Linux) which is allergic to man pages.</p>

<p>Contrariwise the new shiny stuff is all for the GUI desktop, which<br />
isn't supposed to need much of a manual. And, "Developers hate writing<br />
documentation." I wish I understood why open source doesn't attract<br />
more technical writers.</p>

<p><b>Caroline @ 258</b>: I agree *nix systems are designed for<br />
engineers, but I don't agree that MacOS X doesn't expect users to bend<br />
to it. We're a long way from any software that doesn't. It's just<br />
designed to easier for more people to (learn to) use, and concentrates<br />
on enabling certain forms of creative expression instead. Which, as you<br />
said, is fine.</p>

<p><b>Jen Roth</b>: While we're not turning this into a 'teach me<br />
linux' thread, can you offer any advice about getting the delete key on<br />
MacOS X to work simultaneously in native terminal applications and with<br />
remote applications on a Linux machine? (Some of them do work without<br />
'delete sends backspace' but e.g. nano does not.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  7:31 PM by Ralph Giles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #275 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reusable bags - I didn't remember them routinely until I mentally<br />
tied carrying them into picking up the grocery list. Now I pick up the<br />
list and I pick up the bags. I don't know why it suddenly worked.<br />
Possibly it worked as soon as I really committed to it. (Not suggesting<br />
that is the problem for others, just thinking out loud.)</p>

<p>For list-less trips I have a bit more trouble remembering, but I've<br />
got at least one bag stashed in the car most of the time. I have<br />
trouble resisting the temptation to acquire more bags.</p>

<p><br /><br />
#267 - Adam Ek</p>

<p>Ooh, I'm so jealous of the clock. Clocks and watches are one of<br />
those things that you have to go up an order of magnitude at least in<br />
price to get real quality, and it is hard (mentally) for me to do that.</p>

<p>I did have a keywound clock for a short time - it was one of two my<br />
father brought back from Korea in the mid-70s. My granny gave me hers<br />
when she moved into assisted living. It ran a few months for me and<br />
quit. It had run every day from the day in the seventies when she got<br />
it until a month or two before when it got put away for me. The<br />
clock-repair guy said those clocks were "a 15-day mechanism with a<br />
30-day spring" and when they died, they were unrepairable*. I think<br />
resting breaks things before their time.</p>

<p>*I could have bought a new mechanism and had it put into the case,<br />
but at the time I didn't think the case had enough sentimental value to<br />
bother. I'm not sure now that was the right choice.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  7:49 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #276 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph@274: <i>"Developers hate writing documentation." I wish I understood why open source doesn't attract more technical writers.</i></p>

<p>(sigh)</p>

<p>I am currently on a two-week hiatus from my current asic project.<br />
I've been reassigned to go back over my documentation for our previous<br />
project, and make it readable.</p>

<p>You work on something, design it from the ground up, deal with every<br />
little nook and cranny that you created, spend months, maybe a year<br />
sweating over it, and the most natural answer to questions about how it<br />
works seems to be "Isn't it obvious?"</p>

<p>I know. I know. Back to documentation...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  8:18 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 20:18:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #277 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I wish I understood why open source doesn't attract more technical writers.</i></p>

<p>Because in order to document a program, you first have to figure it out... without documentation.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  9:14 PM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258393</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:14:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #278 from Avram</title>
         <description>comment from Avram on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RM Koske #256 -- You have (ahem) a point about little single-bladed pencil sharpeners, but still, the <a href="http://www.pencilthings.com/servlet/Detail?no=309" rel="nofollow">Alvin Brass Bullet</a> is a very satisfying-to-hold hunk o' metal, the sort of thing that feels like it'd survive a global apocalypse. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  9:27 PM by Avram&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258394</link>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 21:27:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #279 from Ralph Giles</title>
         <description>comment from Ralph Giles on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I'll bite. What documentation do technical writers <em>usually</em> use to figure out a program?</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  9:29 PM by Ralph Giles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #280 from heresiarch</title>
         <description>comment from heresiarch on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Greg London @ 242:</b> This conversation has been very<br />
interesting and educational. Thanks! However, I've finally realized I<br />
don't even know enough about this to even handwave usefully, and will<br />
now shut up.</p>

<p><b>Sam Kelly @ 250:</b> <i>"Nanotech is fast becoming a meaningless<br />
word - the field of "stuff controlled on the molecular level" is still<br />
at the stage where there are a lot of incredibly varied possibilities,<br />
and some of them even work. We've got MIT-style cogwheels (cogwheels, I<br />
ask you... they're practically steampunk), really cool zeolites,<br />
functionalisable sputtered sulphur-on-gold fields, and utterly smooth<br />
and regular Langmuir-Blodgett films."</i></p>

<p>That's a really good point. What I meant to say was "nano-level manufacturing."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008  9:53 PM by heresiarch&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #281 from Mary Dell</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Dell on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph Giles #279: </p>

<p>Usually you team with the engineers &amp; developers who create the<br />
project. They explain it to you, then you put it into user-speak. If<br />
you don't know the developers, or don't work with them, that's a good<br />
deal harder.</p>

<p>As for why open source isn't attractive to technical writers, I<br />
think it's because tech writing, while it has its pleasures, isn't a<br />
great outlet for creative expression. If I want to pay the rent, I'll<br />
write a manual; if I want to be creative, I'll write a story. The<br />
middle ground consists of writing free tutorials for art programs or<br />
how-to's for craft projects. That's fun, because the core project or<br />
program I'm writing about is fun. So in order to attract technical<br />
writers, I would think open source projects would either have to (1)<br />
pay money or (2) be fun to write about (like GIMP). </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:01 PM by Mary Dell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:01:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #282 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh dear Ghu, I have to spend some time documenting How to Read the<br />
Maps, part 2, for the newbies (we get three next Monday), and the<br />
people who've been around longer but still can't get it without help.<br />
Not that they're likely to read it - they didn't read part 1 - but I<br />
may tell them that the pop quiz on it is called QC, and getting the<br />
package back for corrections is Not Passing.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:01 PM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #283 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph Giles @#279:</p>

<p>In a conventional company, the technical writer would usually be in<br />
the same building as the programmer. They'd start with the programmer's<br />
notes, which might not be complete and usually wouldn't be written in a<br />
style suitable for end-users. (Some will be handwritten!) Hopefully,<br />
they will also have the specifications and feature lists which were<br />
written as part of the company's decision to write the program. And<br />
then they can deal with the gaps in those, by going over to the<br />
programmer (or at least phoning them) and asking questions. And if the<br />
programmer doesn't cooperate, they can complain to his manager, who has<br />
a natural interest in getting the company product documented.</p>

<p>The problem with open source programs, is that you instead have one<br />
or more programmers who publish the program with minimal or no<br />
user-accessible documentation, or something intended for highly<br />
technical users. There may well be more information buried in the<br />
source code, but that's not even provided with binary distributions,<br />
which (for reasons I discussed above) are becoming more common.</p>

<p>And then either the programmer, or else someone whose role is<br />
limited to packaging and/or "marketing", puts a note somewhere: "Hey,<br />
somebody want to write a manual for this thing?" </p>

<p>From that point, anybody out "in the field" who hopes to actually answer that appeal, needs to do some or all of:</p>

<p> (1) Learn the program "cold", including exploring just what it can<br />
or can't do, how to accomplish an assortment of user-useful tasks, and<br />
what messages it presents in response to various user errors.</p>

<p> (2) Read through the source code for the programmer's comments and other notes.</p>

<p> (3) Read through the version history to note bugfixes and new features.</p>

<p> (4) Squeeze more information out of the same programmer who didn't<br />
have time, interest, or communication ability to write proper<br />
documentation in the first place. This of course would usually be done<br />
by E-mail, since the programmer can be anywhere on the planet and<br />
probably has a "day job".</p>

<p> (5) Possibly translate any of the above from geek-slang, a foreign language, or both at once.</p>

<p>And that's why Open Source doesn't get too much work from technical writers....<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:22 PM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #284 from Steve C.</title>
         <description>comment from Steve C. on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Documentation -</p>

<p>The joke(?) I heard once was that a developer was asked how they<br />
handled security in their systems. He paused for a minute, then said,<br />
"No documentation".</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:40 PM by Steve C.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #285 from Christopher Davis</title>
         <description>comment from Christopher Davis on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph Giles (#274): Experiment with 'stty dec' on the command line<br />
(which will set the terminal to use the DEL (127) character as backward<br />
delete) and/or adding 'set rebinddelete' to your .nanorc.</p>

<p>(My practice is to have the key-in-the-upper-right send DEL, and<br />
have DEL act as backward delete. This is an artifact of being a<br />
long-time Emacs user who started out using it on actual DEC terminals.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 10:48 PM by Christopher Davis&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 22:48:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #286 from T.W</title>
         <description>comment from T.W on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The family's 18thC grandfather clock is still ticking as is the<br />
similar age mantel clock. The hour &amp; half past gongs take getting<br />
use to but the clicks of the pendulum, chain weights and gears is<br />
soothing.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 11:30 PM by T.W&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:30:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #287 from xeger</title>
         <description>comment from xeger on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve C. @ 284...<br /><br />
<i>The joke(?) I heard once was that a developer was asked how they<br />
handled security in their systems. He paused for a minute, then said,<br />
"No documentation".</i></p>

<p>I deeply and wholeheartedly wish that was a joke.  Security through obscurity... isn't.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 11:40 PM by xeger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #288 from threespeed</title>
         <description>comment from threespeed on  3.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel compelled to post a comment since the the quest for "deep value" seems eerily familiar.   You see, I <em>also</em> have a VW Bus (a beat-up '67 -- though I use it only rarely), <a href="http://treadleon.net/" rel="nofollow">treadle sewing machine</a>,<br />
manual typewriter, 3-speed utility bicycle as my principle<br />
transportation, and of course reusable shopping bags. I love fountain<br />
pens too but lose pens too often to risk carrying one. </p>

<p>Self-reliance is very satisfying. You can get a lifetime of<br />
wood-cutting out of a good handsaw, a triangular file, and some<br />
knowledge of how to keep it sharp, without any other infrastructure.<br />
This could be important if you're trying to survive after a global<br />
apocalypse, yet another advantage of the deep value lifestyle.</p>

<p>Carbide lamps are like the fountain pens of lighting. Cave explorers<br />
still use them, because they are durable and easy to fix in the field<br />
(and in the dark), though finicky and messy. They work by dripping<br />
water on calcium carbide to produce acetylene which is burned from a<br />
jet. The lamp needs frequent adjustment and occasional recharging or<br />
clearing out of clogs, but the problems are usually easy and quick to<br />
fix. Electric caving lamps are indisputably cleaner and more<br />
trouble-free, but if something other than a battery or bulb dies, it is<br />
usually impossible to fix in the cave.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  3, 2008 11:46 PM by threespeed&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:46:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #289 from Rosa</title>
         <description>comment from Rosa on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, I was going to stick with things I know about myself (like<br />
biking when you're out of shape), but this question really struck me:</p>

<p>#277 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2008, 09:14 PM:<br /><br />
I wish I understood why open source doesn't attract more technical writers.</p>

<p>My partner is a fulltime, paid Linux developer, a coder since he was<br />
in his teens, so I know an awful lot of coders &amp; open source<br />
people. The culture is even more macho and workaholic/masochistic than<br />
other macho and masochistic subcultures (ecovillage building, bike<br />
courier, BMX) I've been on the fringes of, despite the niceness of most<br />
of the people in it.<br /><br />
 <br /><br />
An awful lot of coders in general seem to think that documentation is<br />
for the weak, and open source coders display this attitude even more<br />
intensely.<br /><br />
 </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:38 AM by Rosa&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:38:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #290 from Barbara Gordon</title>
         <description>comment from Barbara Gordon on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding rag clouts - my mother (born 1924) taught me how to fold a<br />
cloth and pin it into my underwear. I found it vastly more comfortable<br />
(and secure) than the belt-and-napkin arrangement common at the time.<br />
It was also more comfortable than the peel-and-stick pads that came<br />
later. Disposability was the only drawback, and that only when I was<br />
away from home.<br /><br />
-Barbara</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:52 AM by Barbara Gordon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:52:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #291 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam@267: <i>I'm still envious of my coworker who got an old<br />
belt-drive Bridgeport milling machine for the cost of hauling it out of<br />
a basement.</i></p>

<p>Holy crap. I might have considered volunteering to "help" move the<br />
thing, only to have said coworker become involved in an "accident". His<br />
dying words were that I take the damn thing myself.</p>

<p>Yes, officer, that's what he said, why do you ask?</p>

<p>I'd like to find some kind of training school that would show me how<br />
to run the dang things, and then maybe I could do a class project or<br />
something. Either it'd cure me of my desire to get a machine, or it'd<br />
solidify it. Either way, it seems like a win.</p>

<p>;)<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  1:02 AM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #292 from Lee</title>
         <description>comment from Lee on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, one too many comments about grandfather clocks. Now you ALL get to share the earworm! Bwahahaha... </p>

<p><i>My Grandfather's clock was too big for the shelf, <br /><br />
So it stood ninety years on the floor. <br /><br />
It was taller by half than the old man himself, <br /><br />
Though it weighed not a pennyweight more. <br /><br />
And though years would congeal Grandpa's brain to Malt-O-Meal, <br /><br />
He'd one wish that would not be denied; <br /><br />
For his will said to bury him in the clock<br /><br />
When the old man died. </i> </p>

<p><i>Now, Grandfather's grandfather built him the clock, <br /><br />
And he built it like no clock before -- <br /><br />
But the old so-and-so built it so high and wide <br /><br />
That we can't get it out through the door! <br /><br />
So when Gramma'd been calmed and Grandpa had been embalmed, <br /><br />
We discovered the clock was too wide, <br /><br />
But the god-damned cadaver had gotten jammed; <br /><br />
It was stuck inside.</i> </p>

<p><i>So old Grandpapa's standing there in the hall-<br /><br />
Way at Nine Seventeen Cherry Lane, <br /><br />
And he stands, the old cuss, making faces at us, <br /><br />
Which we try to ignore just the same. <br /><br />
But we still think of him as we, haggard, pale and grim, <br /><br />
Stagger into the cold morning's light; <br /><br />
For at odd times he's ringing the blasted chimes <br /><br />
Every god-damned night! </i></p>

<p><i>So at 3:22 AM (ding-dong! ding-dong!)<br /><br />
"Oh ghod, there goes Gramps again." (ding-dong! ding-dong!) <br /><br />
At odd times he's ringing the blasted chimes <br /><br />
Every god-damned night!</i> </p>

<p>- "Grandfather's Clock" by Frank Hayes, to the traditional tune<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  1:03 AM by Lee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #293 from Linkmeister</title>
         <description>comment from Linkmeister on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Faren @ #208, the other day my mother, sister and I were discussing<br />
what we'd do with this house when it came time to sell (after Mom's<br />
passing, which doesn't look to happen anytime soon, thanks be). I said<br />
I'd take my half and move to Prescott.</p>

<p>But if there's no bus service...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  2:24 AM by Linkmeister&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #294 from Alan Braggins</title>
         <description>comment from Alan Braggins on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Talk of delete/backspace is giving me nasty flashbacks. The HP User<br />
Group Emacs (the aptly named HUGE) had, IIRC, five different layers <i>just within emacs</i><br />
swapping the meaning of the two keys over compared with the level<br />
below. And we were using xmodmap to do the swap for all X applications,<br />
so every layer was wrong in its assumption about the layer below. In<br />
addition, although emacs supported X input at that time, it did it by<br />
mapping X events into the codes it would have got running as a terminal<br />
application with a keyboard of the type it was expecting for the<br />
machine it was built on - which didn't work properly if your X display<br />
was on a different machine type. Horribleness. But at least I had the<br />
source, and could clean some of that up myself, and put in workarounds<br />
that worked the way I wanted on the systems I was using for the rest.<br /><br />
(Things have improved a lot since, and at the time Windows was a single<br />
user system with no remote GUI capability at all, so this isn't really<br />
a "you can see why normal people prefer Windows" story. But<br />
occasionally legacy stuff can still bite you in odd ways.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  6:00 AM by Alan Braggins&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #295 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosa @#282:  Hey, don't blame me for Ralph's question! ;-)  </p>

<p>I learned <b>my</b> lesson dealing with the output of the guys you're describing!  And as Mary Dell described <i>much</i><br />
more succinctly, the real problem is not having technical writers at<br />
the programmer's shoulder. (Ghod, I ramble when I post late at night!)<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:06 AM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #296 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Mary Dell</b> @ 281... <i>if I want to be creative, I'll write a story</i></p>

<p>...while I'll write a blog entry. Documentation isn't an issue for<br />
our group because our users are so smart that their very thorough specs<br />
actually wind up being the documentation. And if, in the course of the<br />
project, I ask them to clarify this or that part of their specs,<br />
they'll actually go back and update the specs's copy that is kept in a<br />
centralized location. That way, even years later, they can tell what<br />
the heck our stuff does, and this in a language that they understand,<br />
and they can build on that for the next round of specs.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:18 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #297 from Lila</title>
         <description>comment from Lila on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R.M. Koske @ #275: <i>I think resting breaks things before their time.</i></p>

<p>Definitely true of human bodies (if you take "resting" to mean<br />
"being put on a shelf for a couple of months"). I want to know how<br />
bears hibernate without deconditioning to the point of becoming<br />
nonambulatory.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:47 AM by Lila&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #298 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#278 - Avram <br /><br />
Oh, yes, that's lovely.</p>

<p>#286, T.W. - Once you get accustomed to the gongs, you almost<br />
completely stop hearing them. It's kind of freaky. I once spent a<br />
couple of hours reading in the room with a clock that chimed<br />
half-hours. I'd lived with that clock since I was six or seven, and it<br />
startled me when I realized that I hadn't heard a single chime during<br />
my reading. I looked up to confirm that the clock was actually running<br />
and discovered that though I could see the pendulum move, I couldn't<br />
hear it tick. It's incredibly disorienting to be able to really see<br />
your brain filter out the stuff that it's decided is irrelevant. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  8:39 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258414</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:39:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #299 from Mary Dell</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Dell on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee @#292:</p>

<p>Thanks a lot, now <i>I </i>have an earworm:<br /><br />
<i><br /><br />
My Grandfather's Watch was the best ever made<br /><br />
by the Timex company.<br /><br />
<i><br /><br />
Just like that watch John Cameron Swayze displayed<br /><br />
Last night on the old TV.<br /><br />
<i><br /><br />
Oh it works underwater so perfectly<br /><br />
and it still makes a ticking sound<br /><br />
<i><br /><br />
Which my Grandfather tried only this afternoon<br /><br />
and that's how the old man drowned.</i></i></i></i></p>

<p>--Allan Sherman</p>

<p>p.s. oh dear, the earworm, like the song, has segued into "Don't Buy the Liverwurst." It's going to be a long day.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  8:54 AM by Mary Dell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 08:54:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #300 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#290, Barbara Gordon -</p>

<p>It may sound silly, but I'm wishing I knew a site to point you to,<br />
where you could share the details of that knowledge. That's the kind of<br />
thing that gets lost as tech changes, and there's a large community of<br />
women moving back to cloth pads who would be interested as a practical<br />
matter. Plus it is historically interesting.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  9:01 AM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258416</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:01:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #301 from Janet Brennan Croft</title>
         <description>comment from Janet Brennan Croft on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason B., are you a fellow Normanite?</p>

<p>Here's another neglected low-maintenence technology -- slide rules<br />
and their ilk. Though in these days of solar power, calculators don't<br />
gobble batteries they way they used to. But slide rules are easy to<br />
care for and maintain, where a broken calculator is unrepairable trash.<br />
You can do an awful lot of math with a slide rule (and the recommended<br />
peripheral, a pad of paper and a pencil),or an abacus or addiator.<br />
There's one company in Japan (Concise) that still makes slide rules,<br />
and lots are available on Ebay. It takes a bit of work to learn to use<br />
them effectively, but it reinforces mathematical concepts instead of<br />
isolating you from them the way a calculator does -- another deep value<br />
right there.</p>

<p>Another note -- we inherited a 1920's cast-iron wall-mounted can<br />
opener when my grandmother-in-law died. It's indestructible, handles<br />
even heavy olive oil cans, and works better than any electric can openr<br />
we've ever owned. Wish they made things to last like that now.</p>

<p>I think the concept of "pre-cycling" could be part of a deep value<br />
philosophy. When I buy something, I try to consider how I might reuse<br />
the packaging, for example. Like plastic grocery bags -- I either use<br />
them to line wastebaskets, or wad them up as packing material, or<br />
recycle them back at the store. Never do they just go straight in the<br />
trash. I was disturbed a few years ago when yogurt containers went to<br />
peel-off foil tops instead of plastic lids -- now the bottoms are<br />
useless, and I find I can hardly bring myself to buy pre-flavored<br />
yogurt anymore because of the waste. I buy my cat litter in large<br />
plastic containers, which I then use as mouse-proof garage storage or<br />
patio gardening pots. Empty dog food bags become large garbage bags,<br />
and so on.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 10:29 AM by Janet Brennan Croft&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258417</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:29:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #302 from fidelio</title>
         <description>comment from fidelio on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WRT old-fashioned clocks, especially the striking kind:</p>

<p>My uncle's wife had a good many clocks as gifts over the years from<br />
her father, who was a jeweler who liked tinkering with clockwork, and<br />
she inherited several more when he died, because her mother was not<br />
interested in keeping them going.* Given the difficulty of keeping them<br />
all exactly on the correct time all the time, there were a good many<br />
days when both noon and midnight--or, to be exact, the period between<br />
11:45 and 12:15, when the clock with the Winchester chimes sounded the<br />
quarter-hours--was too noisy to speak, as every clock in the house but<br />
their alarm clock gave its all to sound the hour. Saturday midnights<br />
were worst; then, on Sunday morning, while coffee was brewing, my uncle<br />
and aunt would go through the house, winding and re-setting clocks.</p>

<p>My uncle said his favorite was the 400-day clock, which swung away<br />
quietly under its glass bell, losing very little time and chiming so<br />
quietly that if you weren't in the same room and listening for it, you<br />
wouldn't know it had made any noise.</p>

<p><br /><br />
*It's usually easier to keep old clockwork going than it is to revive<br />
old clockwork that's been allowed to stand still for a long time. Just<br />
in case any old clockwork, whether in a clock or otherwise, comes your<br />
way.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 10:58 AM by fidelio&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258418</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:58:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #303 from Carrie S.</title>
         <description>comment from Carrie S. on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I was disturbed a few years ago when yogurt containers went to<br />
peel-off foil tops instead of plastic lids -- now the bottoms are<br />
useless, and I find I can hardly bring myself to buy pre-flavored<br />
yogurt anymore because of the waste.</em></p>

<p>Poke a hole in the bottom for drainage and use them to start seeds<br />
indoors. I've got a row of about ten on a windowsill and they're doing<br />
nicely. This is less effective if you want to eat yogurt every day, but<br />
it's a use for at least some of them.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 11:19 AM by Carrie S.&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258419</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 11:19:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #304 from EClaire</title>
         <description>comment from EClaire on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a Deep Value dilemma at the moment. In going through a<br />
houseful of belongings I've come across lots of things that are<br />
perfectly good, but not necessarily for us. In trying to be a good<br />
steward, I carefully pack these things up to donate them, only to find<br />
that charities don't want them. Goodwill turned down my 3-in-1 printer,<br />
despite the fact that we originally got it from a Goodwill store,<br />
because "computer things have viruses on them" and just today I was<br />
told that Habitat for Humanity isn't taking cast iron tubs for their<br />
ReStore because no one ever buys them. Cast iron tub! Hardly used (for<br />
at least the past 22 years). What on earth am I supposed to do with it<br />
now? Bury it and use it as a koi pond? (Actually, that might work... it<br />
would probably freeze in the winter though.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:04 PM by EClaire&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258420</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:04:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #305 from Ronit</title>
         <description>comment from Ronit on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do tea ball/infusers count as old tech? They cost about 2-5$US, and<br />
pay for themselves almost instantly, as loose tea is so much cheaper<br />
than tea bags.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:12 PM by Ronit&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258421</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:12:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #306 from Janet Brennan Croft</title>
         <description>comment from Janet Brennan Croft on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>EClaire -- look for a FreeCycling organization in your area. You can<br />
list your stuff and the people who want it can contact you directly.<br />
http://www.freecycle.org/</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:15 PM by Janet Brennan Croft&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258422</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:15:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #307 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>fidelio @302:</strong><br /><br />
<em>It's usually easier to keep old clockwork going than it is to<br />
revive old clockwork that's been allowed to stand still for a long<br />
time. Just in case any old clockwork, whether in a clock or otherwise,<br />
comes your way.</em></p>

<p>OK, I'll go wind the grandmother clock* downstairs. It's rather<br />
outcompeted by the church clock half a block away, which chimes the<br />
hour and half hour. The grandmother clock does as well, but we let it<br />
run down about six months ago.</p>

<p>-----<br /><br />
* It's a mantel clock, but it really did belong to my maternal grandmother.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:37 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258423</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:37:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #308 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And another vote for freecycling here: we used it to get rid of any number of things that we had no need for before our move.</p>

<p>I even boxed up all those screws, nails, wall plugs, nuts, bolts,<br />
and miscellaneous hardware that I'd collected over the past decade and<br />
gave that away. (There was a <em>lot</em> of interest in that one.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:39 PM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258424</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #309 from Tom Womack</title>
         <description>comment from Tom Womack on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom Womack @ 210: "But that fifty-dollar versus fifty-cent thing means they're almost by definition used in niche applications."</p>

<p>How big of a time gap does that money gap translate into? Like, how<br />
many years back do you have to go before an ASIC chip with the same<br />
capabilities as your modern $50 FPGA also cost fifty dollars? Are we<br />
talking a year, or a decade?</p>

<p>At least a decade. You can implement a 40MHz RISC processor with a<br />
cache in a Spartan3 FPGA - something like the MIPS R3000 in an original<br />
Sony Playstation, which came out in 1994, but without the weird<br />
external processors that the Playstation has. </p>

<p>The Spartan3 was released in about 2004, and Xilinx has subsequently<br />
focussed on more capable and *much* more expensive chips, with really<br />
elaborate high-speed network interfaces since one of their markets is<br />
the builders of really big network routers.</p>

<p>There are a couple of math problems which I thought would fit nicely<br />
in FPGAs, but the problem turns out to be that an FPGA capable of<br />
holding a memory controller and a 64-bit multiplier, on a board which<br />
can talk to the outside world, costs a good deal more than the<br />
cheapest-available quad-core PC, and that PC has a vastly better memory<br />
controller and four incredibly much faster multipliers.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:40 PM by Tom Womack&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258425</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:40:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #310 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#301 - Janet Brennan Croft - </p>

<p>There's an idea that I've seen a few places in environmental circles<br />
that there's no such thing as waste in nature and manufacturing should<br />
be the same. Not "we'll recycle your dead washing machine into a new<br />
washing machine" but "when your washing machine dies, the broken parts<br />
will be recycled and the unbroken parts will be useable for X." I don't<br />
recall what the concept is called, and I don't think anyone has really<br />
succeeded at it yet, but it sounds like an excellent ideal to strive<br />
for.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 12:44 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258426</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 12:44:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #311 from albatross</title>
         <description>comment from albatross on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janet #301:</p>

<p>I have to say, I find the modern solar powered calculators an<br />
example of good, long-lasting technology. You can't repair it yourself<br />
if it breaks, but that's not trivial for a sliderule, either. And a<br />
calculator is *way* more powerful for a lot of things, and requires a<br />
lot less knowledge to use. We have a couple old solar powered<br />
calculators from college, which our kids play with. If you can manage<br />
not to pour water in the keys or step on them, they last for a long<br />
time. (I guess either the keys will wear out, or the solar panels will,<br />
eventually.) This doesn't have the feel of disposable stuff to me. </p>

<p>OTOH, I gather that there are some quite sophisticated mechanical<br />
calculators out there. They feature prominently in Gibson's _Pattern<br />
Recognition_, and I recall going to a museum of mechanical computing<br />
devices (the "Arithmeum") in Bonn (I was there for a conference) soon<br />
after reading the book, and saw references to some of the mechanical<br />
calculators described in the book. If you happen to be there, it's<br />
definitely worth seeing....<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  1:00 PM by albatross&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258427</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:00:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #312 from T.W</title>
         <description>comment from T.W on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RMKoske 298,</p>

<p>Yes you do get used to them if you live with the sounds but we only<br />
visit a couple times a year. They're on a working farm(pasture range<br />
beef) so you do not get the urban background noises either. The silent<br />
strike hand still works but you can only set it for 6 hours. Choose<br />
your 6 hours wisely.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  1:45 PM by T.W&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258428</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:45:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #313 from Caroline</title>
         <description>comment from Caroline on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enthusiastic third for freecycling.  I assure you, people want the <i>strangest</i><br />
stuff, and normal stuff is just a given. A working 3-in-1 printer will<br />
be gone in ten minutes if your list is active -- or that's the<br />
impression I get from my local freecycle list when others have posted<br />
printers and similar.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  1:51 PM by Caroline&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258429</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:51:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #314 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today I took old newspapers to the recycling container, and saw a<br />
whole whack of *books* in there. Over 20, a real sammelsurium. Some<br />
travel guides, recipe books, also some poetry, history and fiction.<br />
Fortunately they weren't out of reach. I fished them out, found some I<br />
wanted, and stacked the rest on top of the bin. No place to donate the<br />
rest came to mind, unfortunately, and I was in a hurry, so that was the<br />
best I could do on the spur of the moment. Seems a shame, although when<br />
I think realistically, there probably are a lot of books that don't<br />
truly deserve immortality. (writing those words feels like heresy!)</p>

<p>On a brighter note, I just found out that freecycle is alive and well in Germany. Thanks for the tip, Fluorosphere.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  2:17 PM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258430</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:17:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #315 from R. M. Koske</title>
         <description>comment from R. M. Koske on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#312, T.W. - <br /><br />
Ugh, yes, merely visiting a clock with loud chimes is a guarantee of being routinely startled.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  3:48 PM by R. M. Koske&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258431</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:48:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #316 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg London: Re Bridgeport/Vertical End Mills. Fly me out, I can teach you to use it.</p>

<p>Set ups, and all.</p>

<p>In a lot of ways they are very simple. In subtle ways, they aren't<br />
Oh, wait, you don't have one. That makes it a little tougher.</p>

<p>Community colleges often have machinging courses.</p>

<p>R.M. Koske: re tuning things out. It's a swell trick. The trouble I<br />
have is the sounds which sound like things I need to pay attention to.<br />
Mosty I freeze, while I parse it out, but there have been some dramatic<br />
moments (the first time the fired a volley at the Renassaince Faire I<br />
work, well I was in the path of direct echo. I was flat on the ground,<br />
with my sword swung behind my back [so I'd not land on it: ouch] while<br />
lots of people looked at me funny).</p>

<p>re yogurt containers.  All of ours have lids, and foil/plastic seals beneath.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  4:32 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258432</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:32:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #317 from EClaire</title>
         <description>comment from EClaire on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah! Thank you! There is one for our county, so I'll see if I can drum up any interest.  This may be a great help.</p>

<p>And if I forgot to say thank you for the link to the garden<br />
instructions, thank you for that as well! The instructions will be<br />
passed on to the official tiller of land here, and hopefully I'll be<br />
able to start transplanting my seeds and seed potatoes soon.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  4:51 PM by EClaire&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258433</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:51:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #318 from C. Wingate</title>
         <description>comment from C. Wingate on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The people who do Jasper (open source reporting tool) seem to be funding the project by selling the manual at $44 a pop.</p>

<p>I have never found a pencil sharpener to match those old double cutter schoolroom varieties.</p>

<p>The solar-powered calculator is a really permanent technology. I hit<br />
high school exactly on the cusp of the slide rule to calculator change:<br />
the NS and TI scientific calculators came out the year I started. I got<br />
the NS, because it was reverse Polish (my father got an HP 35 when they<br />
were first available), and I kept it going for well over a decade by<br />
opening it up at intervals and soldering a new set of AA Ni-Cads, but<br />
eventually I was reduced to a solar powered 4-plus-percent job which I<br />
used until it disappeared into the chaos of our house. I'm sure it<br />
still works, if I could find it.<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  5:34 PM by C. Wingate&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258434</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 17:34:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #319 from joann</title>
         <description>comment from joann on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Debbie #314:</p>

<p>I found most of what is now my collection of 19th-c. American<br />
history texts in a pile next to the dumpster outside my apartment house<br />
at the end of a school year. Somebody couldn't be bothered to stand in<br />
line at a bookstore or drop them off for the library sale.</p>

<p>Twice a year, the city runs "heavy trash collection" in which you<br />
are allowed to put out your old appliances, furniture and the like.<br />
With the exception of a broken toilet seat, nothing we've put on the<br />
(nonexistent) curb has *ever* lasted long enough to be collected by the<br />
city. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  6:02 PM by joann&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #320 from Greg London</title>
         <description>comment from Greg London on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terry@316: <i>Oh, wait, you don't have one. That makes it a little tougher.</i></p>

<p>You're such a tease.</p>

<p>;)<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  6:38 PM by Greg London&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 18:38:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #321 from Terry Karney</title>
         <description>comment from Terry Karney on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Greg: You were the one who got me thinking you had a Bridgeport.<br />
Honestly, the hardest part about using them is taking backlash into<br />
account (no, I lie: that's the trick to using them once you understand<br />
the ideas of speed and feed).</p>

<p>They are, all in all, very simple devices, and the algorithms are<br />
pretty straightforward (unless you get to some of the odd aluminums,<br />
which do that whole, <i>10.7 grams of powder cause the cannon to go backwards, while the ball stays still</i>, but I digress.  I miss the act of machining; the job, not so much).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:13 PM by Terry Karney&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258437</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 19:13:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #322 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Terry Karney</b> @ 321... <i>10.7 grams of powder cause the cannon to go backwards, while the ball stays still</i></p>

<p>I'd like to see the MythBusters attempt to reproduce that one. Why<br />
wouldn't they? They once tried to find out if shoving your finger in a<br />
pistol's barrel would make the gun blow up. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:23 PM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 19:23:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #323 from Ralph Giles</title>
         <description>comment from Ralph Giles on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Harmon @ 283: See, that sounds like an argument against<br />
volunteer open source contribution in general, since a coder has to do<br />
most of that too. Maybe it's that with code changes you can just fix<br />
something that bugs you personally, while documentation is generally<br />
about other people, or at least the relationship a project has with<br />
users?</p>

<p>Mary Dell @ 281: Interesting that tech writing would be a last<br />
resort for people with writing skills too. I've heard the same argument<br />
about open source in general, in that almost no one codes for fun<br />
either. What about the other supposed benefits, like owning something<br />
you've made in way that goes beyond a job role, achieving excellence in<br />
some small corner of the world, or a chance to practice professional<br />
skills while you're still in school?</p>

<p>Rosa @ 289: Sadly, I fear you're closer to the truth. There is<br />
clearly a lot of toxic culture, and not a lot of positive role models<br />
for projects trying to get out of that.</p>

<p>Thanks all for your answers.</p>

<p>Janet Brennan Croft @ 301: Yay slide rules! I don't actually have<br />
one, but I played with my parents' quite a bit when I was a kid. They<br />
were strangely uninterested in passing them on. :)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:37 PM by Ralph Giles&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #324 from Heather Rose Jones</title>
         <description>comment from Heather Rose Jones on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Janet @ #301</p>

<p><i>I was disturbed a few years ago when yogurt containers went to<br />
peel-off foil tops instead of plastic lids -- now the bottoms are<br />
useless, and I find I can hardly bring myself to buy pre-flavored<br />
yogurt anymore because of the waste. </i></p>

<p>That was what tipped me over the edge into cultivating my own<br />
yogurt. It's not that the yogurt is any better or more nutritious or<br />
anything (although I escape all the silly additives) or even that much<br />
cheaper (about half the price) but simply that it drove me crazy to go<br />
through all those little individual plastic containers, despite their<br />
recyclability. Now my yogurt comes in washable, reusable containers<br />
(some of which came with the yogurt-making equipment and some of which<br />
are recycled from a particular condiment I like that comes in glass<br />
jars of exactly the right size to fit in the yogurt-maker).</p>

<p>I guess the "deep value" angle is that I know I don't actually need<br />
the commercial yogurt incubator -- any sufficiently insulated container<br />
would maintain the original milk temperature long enough for the<br />
culture to work (which is how I managed things back in college in the<br />
dorms).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  7:47 PM by Heather Rose Jones&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258440</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 19:47:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #325 from Mary Aileen</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Aileen on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heather Rose Jones (324): My mother used to make yogurt using the<br />
pilot light in the oven (iirc). Now she submerges the jar(s) in warm<br />
water in an old styrofoam cooler overnight.</p>

<p>Do you find that you have to start over every so often with a fresh<br />
batch? My mother says the yogurt flavor gets stronger every time she<br />
makes it, so that eventually it's too strong.</p>

<p>Me, I can't stand yogurt. :)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  8:11 PM by Mary Aileen&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258441</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 20:11:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #326 from Kevin Riggle</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin Riggle on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>David Harmon @ 283: See, that sounds like an argument against<br />
volunteer open source contribution in general, since a coder has to do<br />
most of that too. Maybe it's that with code changes you can just fix<br />
something that bugs you personally, while documentation is generally<br />
about other people, or at least the relationship a project has with<br />
users?</i></p>

<p>You will sometimes get *developers* fixing bugs in the *developer*<br />
documentation that way. But that is *not* the end-user documentation.<br />
End users are an entirely different animal, and need different<br />
documentation, and it's a rare developer who can also write end-user<br />
documentation.</p>

<p>My hypothesis about the lack of technical writers in open-source is<br />
much along the line of Mary Dell's -- that 1) technical writing isn't,<br />
in the main, very fun; and 2) everyone who finds it fun (and a lot of<br />
people who don't) are all exceedingly well-employed in industry<br />
already, and there aren't enough technical writers to go around even<br />
there, as evidenced by the quantity of bad documentation industry<br />
produces. On the other hand, I know a *lot* of people who code for fun<br />
(and who also, coincidentally, contribute to open-source projects).<br />
Writing documentation just isn't viewed as being very sexy (though<br />
perhaps it should be) -- you only notice documentation when it sucks.<br />
I'm not sure how much of this is inherent and how much is social. But<br />
good documentation (and good QA) is a perfect example of deep value. :-)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  8:41 PM by Kevin Riggle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 20:41:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #327 from Mary Dell</title>
         <description>comment from Mary Dell on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph Giles #323:</p>

<p><i>Mary Dell @ 281: Interesting that tech writing would be a last<br />
resort for people with writing skills too. I've heard the same argument<br />
about open source in general, in that almost no one codes for fun<br />
either. What about the other supposed benefits, like owning something<br />
you've made in way that goes beyond a job role, achieving excellence in<br />
some small corner of the world, or a chance to practice professional<br />
skills while you're still in school?</i></p>

<p>The benefits you cite are all real, and valuable, but there are many<br />
other ways to attain them, if you like to write. Back in my college<br />
days you would either start a zine or write for one your friend was<br />
editing, and everyone was doing something for the campus newspaper or<br />
interning at a scholarly journal or somesuch. And writing poetry and<br />
stories, and scripting movies for friends in the film program, and all<br />
that kind of stuff. I don't think open source actually existed back<br />
then, of course. We writing geeks did help out our comp sci friends by<br />
proofreading papers and abstracts for them. But that they had to feed<br />
us in exchange for doing it (they all had stipends and we didn't),<br />
because it was dead boring.</p>

<p>The thing is, if you like to write code, and you do it for a living,<br />
you'll itch to write a program that's cooler than whatever you work on<br />
while you're on the job. And open source can give you that opportunity.<br />
But writing the user manual for someone else's open source program will<br />
pretty much feel exactly like writing the user manual for someone<br />
else's proprietary program. So there's not a lot of reason to do it for<br />
free. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008  9:57 PM by Mary Dell&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #328 from Sarah</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Susan: According to the booklet with it, it's a "No. 99 - Lock Stitch, for Family Use." I looked the model up, and the <a href="http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=256363" rel="nofollow">jpg </a>shows<br />
a similar machine, except mine doesn't have a treadle. There are three<br />
spare needles in the compartment, so I'm probably ok for another decade.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 10:57 PM by Sarah&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 22:57:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #329 from Sarah</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>xefer:<br /><br />
Thanks for the list of serial numbers. Mine is 1916 and was manufactured in Scotland, which is neat to know.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 11:17 PM by Sarah&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258445</link>
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         <pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 23:17:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #330 from Lee</title>
         <description>comment from Lee on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joann, #319: Our local entertainment paper, the Houston Press, runs<br />
annual "Best of Houston" awards. The first year I was here, the winner<br />
for "best thrift shop" was "Heavy Trash Day in the Heights". (The<br />
Heights is an old, heavily-gentrifying neighborhood not too far from<br />
where we live.) </p>

<p>For that matter, we got the lovely steel futon frame in our living<br />
room (as long as a full-sized sofa, and flattens to queen-size) from<br />
the side of the main road thru the Rice University campus; it had<br />
clearly been abandoned by a student who was moving out. All we had to<br />
do (after getting it home, which required the Big Honkin' Van but was<br />
otherwise no challenge) was buy a new pad for it. I've now got Russ<br />
watching FreeCycle for another one, with which we'll replace the ugly<br />
(and uncomfortable) old sleeper sofa in the den, putting it up on<br />
FreeCycle in return. <br /><br />
 </p>

<p> </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 11:17 PM by Lee&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #331 from Sarah</title>
         <description>comment from Sarah on  4.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re #301:<br /><br />
A friend of my husband's collects slide rules, and back in high school<br />
got to be very smug during an exam when everyone else's calculator died<br />
(it was a very hot day).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  4, 2008 11:29 PM by Sarah&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #332 from abi</title>
         <description>comment from abi on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Kevin Riggle @326:</strong><br /><br />
<em>But good documentation (and good QA) is a perfect example of deep value.</em></p>

<p>Thank you; good point.  I agree entirely.</p>

<p>But then I would, because I'm a tester.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  3:50 AM by abi&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 03:50:00 -0500</pubDate>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #333 from Debbie</title>
         <description>comment from Debbie on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Random weirdness related to <b>Lee's post at 292</b>. I had never<br />
heard that grandfather clock song in my life until yesterday. Then,<br />
just a few hours later, an episode of 1-800-Missing featured it. <em>Cue "Twilight Zone" theme song.</em></p>

<p><b>joann @319 --</b> We used to have twice-yearly heavy trash<br />
pickups, too. It was fun, because everyone would stroll around and look<br />
at other people's stuff. Then too many people started putting their<br />
general garbage in there, so there's now a pickup-on-demand service. In<br />
practice, you call to say you want something picked up, then you're<br />
notified of the date when the truck will come. They bundle pickups in<br />
the same neighborhood. Not a bad system, but the flair is gone.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  5:28 AM by Debbie&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #334 from Kevin Riggle</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin Riggle on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>abi @332:  Then thank <i>you</i>. No matter how frustrated I get at<br />
the test suite or the bugs QA found in my flawless code, I know that<br />
the situation would be immeasurably worse without either.</p>

<p><br /><br />
This post struck a nerve with me, since I am 1) moving out of the dorm,<br />
and thus need to outfit my first real apartment; and 2) going on a<br />
21-day hiking trip in California this summer, and so needing to think <i>really really hard</i> about the deep value of everything I bring.</p>

<p>I partly justified the purchase of an 85-liter hiking backpack to<br />
myself on the grounds that it would make a great go-bag in the<br />
off-season. A little too big to bring as a carry-on on a plane, though.<br />
And I keep rediscovering that non-cotton fabrics, especially wool, have<br />
deep value in the long-wearing, warm-keeping, and<br />
not-getting-hypothermia senses.</p>

<p>I'm a little less clear on the deep value of other things. I'm<br />
probably going to give away the loft I built (sniff), since it won't<br />
fit in the room I'm moving into without blocking sunlight, and it<br />
doesn't support as large a mattress as I'd like. But is a futon better<br />
than a traditional bed, since I can convert it into a couch if I want<br />
to seat more people in my room, say to watch a movie? Do I really want<br />
to ask my parents to ship my antique hardwood dresser halfway across<br />
the US, and if not how will I store my clothes? What will I do for a<br />
desk? Will I have enough bookcases?[1] Trying to judge value on<br />
multiple axes simultaneously -- usefulness, durability, weight (since<br />
my ideal is that I could move entirely by myself, without a motor<br />
vehicle, in a pinch), not to mention affordability on a student budget<br />
-- is hard. And It's hard to optimize qualitative rather than<br />
quantitative characteristics.</p>

<p>Does Ikea have deep value?[2]  </p>

<p><br /><br />
[1] The cooking gear can move into the kitchen -- cast iron, there's<br />
deep value right there; also, the skill of cooking -- thus freeing a<br />
bookshelf, and where that bookshelf is narrower than the dorm bookshelf<br />
I'm giving up, it's also taller. I could also sell some of the<br />
textbooks I'm never going to use again.<br /><br />
[2] I'd go there just for the food, really -- Swedish food is among the<br />
genres I consider comfort food -- but it would be nice if I could pick<br />
up some furniture while I'm at it.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  6:15 AM by Kevin Riggle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #335 from Kevin Riggle</title>
         <description>comment from Kevin Riggle on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Julie L @131:</p>

<p>I had quite a good experience getting the heels on my Cabelas light<br />
hiking books replaced at the local shoe repair shop. (These are not<br />
boots designed to have replaceable soles.) I'd worn down the heels<br />
considerably, so I took them in and was going to get the whole sole<br />
replaced, but the guy said since the forefoot was still okay he could<br />
just replace the heel, and he basically cut the old heel off and glued<br />
a new one on, as good as new. It's given me another couple years worth<br />
of wear out of them, since the uppers are still in decent shape.<br />
Probably works better with boots than with other kinds of shoes, though.</p>

<p>As for "shoes is shoes," the friends of mine who do LARPing in the<br />
woods say that their LARP groups require modern shoes, because<br />
apparently period shoes <i>suck</i> for running around and fighting<br />
in. Secondhand, and most of us don't run around in the sticks beating<br />
our friends with foam weapons day-to-day, but something to consider. I<br />
think a shoe would be have to be made pretty carefully to get the right<br />
arch support, ankle support, etc. that properly-fit commercially-made<br />
shoes do. Also, I've discovered that I really want heel<br />
shock-absorption, because walking on concrete all day is a killer in<br />
that way, and I don't know how you'd achieve that in a small-batch<br />
shoe. (I was quite disappointed that my new heavy-duty hiking boots,<br />
purchased for the aforementioned trip, didn't have that and more<br />
easily-replaceable soles, because otherwise they'd be great for<br />
everyday wear -- full-grain leather uppers, the works. Lots of deep<br />
value. I guess that shock absorption matters less on the trail?)</p>

<p>Not saying good small batch shoes are impossible, though, and if you find a good place, please let me know. :-)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  6:31 AM by Kevin Riggle&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #336 from David Harmon</title>
         <description>comment from David Harmon on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ralph @#323:  <i>Maybe it's that with code changes you can just fix something that bugs you personally, </i></p>

<p>Well...  <b>if you're a programmer</b>, you can often go in and fix<br />
a specific problem, or graft in the feature you want. But if the<br />
original program isn't very readable, that might involve rewriting most<br />
of it, which nearly amounts to "adopting" the thing. If it matters that<br />
much to you, fine. If not, there's probably another program to replace<br />
it, and goodbye.</p>

<p>The problem for docs is that (1) most writers are <i>not</i> programmers, and (2) for end-user docs, you're concerned not with how it's <b>made</b>, but with how it <b>behaves</b>.  Even if you <i>are</i><br />
a programmer, figuring out behavior from source code takes more than<br />
just poking through the logic, you need to really "grok" the whole<br />
thing. Not to mention you also have to cope with the bugs...,</p>

<p>As an example, consider the GUI newsreader I use, Pan2. My ISP<br />
recently reset its newsgroups (restarting the article numbers from 1).<br />
Well, that doesn't happen often, but now it has, and I can't see how to<br />
make the program recognize tt. No docs, no menu option for that, and no<br />
feedback from the program. (I've been editing the newsrc files, but<br />
that's already an "old-timer's trick".)</p>

<p>Another day, the same program semi-hung, refusing to run its task<br />
queue. When I exited, I got a message on the terminal I'd run it from,<br />
something like "Existing Quarks: 1". If I really wanted to dive into<br />
the program, I could <i>probably</i> figure out where that idiocy was printed, but not necessarily the conditions that <b>produced</b> it.  If I were <i>just</i> a writer, forget it!</p>

<p>And then there's all the messages and behaviors coming from various<br />
libraries and slave programs, which represent whole new sets of source<br />
code....<br /><br />
</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  9:14 AM by David Harmon&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #337 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar-powered calculators can die from one or another cause - I had<br />
one do that earlier this year. Just quit working, wouldn't turn on even<br />
in bright light. (There may be something broken that can be repaired,<br />
but I haven't opened it up yet for an autopsy. It was so much easier to<br />
walk into an office-supply place and buy another of the same model.) On<br />
the other hand - no batteries required! This one is just about as<br />
powerful as, and a <em>lot</em> less expensive than, my ancient HP45 (which has no remaining source for battery packs).</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  9:24 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258453</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #338 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>abi</b> @ 332... <i>I'm a tester</i></p>

<p>"Back off, man! I'm a <i>tester</i>."</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008  9:35 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
         <link>http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010104.html#258454</link>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #339 from Ginger</title>
         <description>comment from Ginger on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serge @ 338: You sound a bit testy. </p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008 10:01 AM by Ginger&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #340 from Carol Kimball</title>
         <description>comment from Carol Kimball on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: sewing machine needles for old machines (Sarah) and other trivia</p>

<p>All current household machine needles should work fine. They'll have<br />
a flat side - be sure you get its orientation when replacing them.<br />
Check the ones you have to be sure they haven't rusted. Remember red<br />
tomato pincushions with an attached strawberry? The strawberry had<br />
emery powder inside, so you could poke a needle back and forth and keep<br />
it clean.</p>

<p>Cheap needles aren't worth their supposed savings.</p>

<p>Friction heats the needles. Inexpensive ones will warp, or worse,<br />
shatter. The bits in the bobbin case can throw off the timing, and<br />
that's either about an hour of your time if you haven't done it a lot,<br />
or a hefty fee to your local repair shop, and there you are with<br />
curtains all over the kitchen table for a week and a half. You can<br />
often pick up machine things at yard sales. They're a great place to<br />
add to your collection of attachments such as feet*, rufflers, binders<br />
and buttonhole makers, but I'd throw away any needles found there.<br />
Among professionals, a new project always starts with a new needle.</p>

<p>*yours will take a short shank.</p>

<p>Get someone local to show you how to clean lint out and oil it - a<br />
few minutes weekly if you sew a lot, or just before or after more<br />
widely spaced stints. </p>

<p>A good brand available most places is Schmetz. The default size is<br />
an 80/12 universal. Sharps/denims are extra pointy, good for firmly<br />
woven fabrics. If you want to sew on t-shirts or lycra, get a stretch<br />
needle. They replaced ball points and were a considerable improvement.</p>

<p>The biggest problem I have with ancient machines is that they have a<br />
tiny spindle bobbin. Kind of like trying to download a movie to those<br />
old 5 1/4" floppies...</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008 10:03 AM by Carol Kimball&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #341 from Serge</title>
         <description>comment from Serge on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Ginger</b> @ 339... I protest. With zest.</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008 10:40 AM by Serge&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <title>Deep Value -- comment #342 from P J Evans</title>
         <description>comment from P J Evans on  5.Apr.08</description>
         <content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I'd add to Carole @ 340<br /><br />
Don't bother with plastic bobbins if you don't have to. You can usually<br />
find metal ones that will work and won't break so easily. Most machines<br />
use the same kind; recent Singers usually won't.</p>

<p>The less-expensive machines are usually the ones without all the<br />
electronics, and they'll do what you need and last for years. Cleaning<br />
the lint out isn't as difficult as it sounds, and there's not much<br />
under there that will break if you look at it. (It's Victorian high<br />
tech: cams and levers and pushrods. Give it a steam engine and belt<br />
drive, and you're in business.)</p>]]>
	 &lt;p&gt;Posted April  5, 2008 10:46 AM by P J Evans&lt;/p&gt;</content:encoded>
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         <pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:46:00 -0500</pubDa