Eleventy-first!

So is this the thread where I talk about how psyched I am to be going to my first Worldcon, or are we to have a dedicated thread where I can gibber about that?

Skwid @ 1... I don't see why you can't gibber here about going to your first Worldcon. Be seeing ïa ïa ïa!

At last!

This needed to be linked here of all places:

In which, perhaps, Plums are eaten

Skwid, Avram and I just recently decided we were going to Denvention, mainly because I have a major birthday that Wednesday and wanted to do something neat. It'll be my eighth.

Bilbo's birthday at the beginning of The Lord of the Rings, the emergency number in Japan (isn't it in other places, too?), thirty-seven threes, a very lucky sequence of bits, an unlucky sequence of trits in balanced ternary, a very heavy sequence of bits (high weight!), an intuitive way to write the number three, and an oddball abbreviation for a sentence in which the Spanish version of John gained a single victory.

Chris (3): I assume you mean your eighth Worldcon, not your eighth birthday. ;) (It'll be my eleventh.)

Mary Aileen: Well, seeing as how leap days don't fall in August (and even 32 was a while ago), you assume correctly.

One sometimes investigates times that are new to one.

The other day I was wondering if there was a good one-volume history of India anywhere. Recommendations for something that's reasonably accurate and a good read?

A PULP MILL COLLAPSES.; ALMOST TOTALLY DESTROYED BY THE HIGH WATER

March 2, 1891, Wednesday

WATERTOWN, N.Y., March 1. -- The largest pulp mill of the Remington Paper Company, about two miles below this city, was almost totally destroyed late last night by the high water, causing damages requiring about $50,000 to repair and killing John Murphy, an employe, aged sixty-eight. Eleven pulp grinders, the wheel, and various other machinery were carried down the river. [ END OF FIRST PARAGRAPH ]

I'm going to be going to my first Worldcon, too! Also, I have space in my room if someone or someones would like to share a room...? At the Crowne Plaza Hotel (#2 on the Denvention hotels page), a nonsmoking room with two full beds, arrive Thursday check out Sunday, $129/night for the room even split? I am contained and non-snoring and used to coming in quietly with a modicum of fuss, and if Denver gets hit by some horrible disaster I can lead the exodus 14 miles south to my parents' house... ;)

Oh, and right now on my Livejournal I have a picture from 1913 of a man climbing down a rope from an airship onto a speeding steam train. Awesome!! I found it here.

Alas, we aren't going. Between my still being unemployed and the fact that it isn't good for someone undergoing chemotherapy (my partner) to be out in huge crowds, we're staying home.

Paula Helm Murray @ 10... My best wishes to you and yours.

Thanks for the XKCD-explaining sidelight, Patrick. Not knowing the source material, my first reaction to the comic was "Well, yes, I suppose Munroe's allowed to do a clip show, at this point."

People who enjoyed the Discovery Channel ad will also appreciate Where the Hell is Matt?, which charmed its way through my personal blogocircle last week. I have watched it a dozen times and still mist up a little over it.

albatross #4:
It's the emergency number in New Zealand too. Our trans-Tasman neighbours (Australia) use '000'.

I hadn't realised that there's a Wikipedia entry for '111'

#7 ::: Tony Zbaraschuk

I haven't read his India: A History, but I have read John Keay's The Honourable Company: A History of the English East India Trading Company. His India is the first single Vol. history of India since the 1950's. He's a popular writer, not an academic, so it's narrative history, and should be readable.

Love, C.

Which led me to this.

Denvention 1981 was my first convention. Not just my first worldcon, my first convention, period. I was 17, and flew from Seattle with my friend Jim, and we stayed with friends of the family who happened to be nuns.

The Discovery Channel commercial and Where the Hell is Matt? both make me smile like it's my job.

#7 Tony Zbaraschuk; #14 Constance Ash

I have read John Keay's India: A History, and reccomend it unreservedly. I intended to say more, but seem to have lost coherency, so am going to bed.

John Keay reminded me of this book by John Kaye I found at the British Museum. Google has a (buggy?) scan of a copy from Harvard here.

Really, I was just looking for an excuse to share the shiny tooling.

A particulate deposit: Court cites nonsense poem in ruling for Gitmo detainee

That's right: a federal appeals court liked the Bush admin argument to something out of Lewis Carroll.

Don S. Davies has died at the age of 65

Farewell, Hammond of Texas.

I'd never seen the Discovery channel ad until it was linked to here, so when I saw the XKCD strip I immediately thought of this.

You could almost imagine the XKCD/Discovery channel song being sung to the same tune. That was how I heard it in my head, screechy voice and all.

Serge @ 2: I'm speechless with horror.

Ïa, ïa, ïa made the best pun, and opened the door for the nameless ones.

R'lyeh, I can only prostrate myself in front of the master and beg for mercy.

There's a nicer-looking scan of the East India Company book at the Internet Archive. (Well, the pages are nicer than Google's, anyway. They don't show the spine.)

It'll be in tomorrow's update for The Online Books Page. (And I'm always happy to get suggestions for more titles to add)

Paula Helm Murray @ 10: Best wishes for a successful treatment!

Skwid and Madeline F:

Congratulations! WorldCon is a blast! This will be my third... my second for the whole weekend.

Please join the Church of the Great Washed and pack your shower supplies!

Turns out the library I work at has the history of the Honorable Company, and I am borrowing the other history of India via interlibrary loan. (A wonderful invention, truly...)

I wasn't much interested in the movie "Punisher", which is in the works, but someone showed me a preview for it today, and holy crap, it's Titus Pullo!

Might have to do a matinee. Or guys night. or something.

I'm still reeling a bit from having seen Wall-E yesterday.

I'm describing it to fannish types as what might result from a Robert Sheckley novel taking advantage of The Velveteen Rabbit. Mixed with a bit of "Silent Running" and "2001."

I sat through the credits partially because I'm not sure I could walk straight if I'd try to leave right away. In any case, the visuals behind the first third of so of the credits are a kind of coda to the story, one that could be influenced by All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace.

Titus Pullo? Oooh! And I haven't even seen Iron Man yet, or WALL-E.

Iron Man? Two chrome-plated thumbs up. WALL-E? Mere digits won't do justice. I'm excited to dip my toe into the wild untamed waters of a Making Light open thread (the courage granted by the fact that I can't possibly go off topic is diminished by the fact that I know that there are astonishing experts in every field who will swoop down on my stupidity like a kestrel nabbing a hapless rodent.) Nevertheless, eventually, when one delurks, plunge one must.

I'm doing a straw poll of advice from fans (and or slans, or even flans) on the expat experience. I've been offered a plum of a job opportunity...in Munich. Sounds cool, but what about the books? The movies? The fan community? Advice and help from anglophones living in old Yurp would be massively appreciated...Vielen dank!

And in the spirit of semi-on-topic-ness, I wanna be there when they switch on the LHC. Worth being around if the universe ceases to exist...I can say:

"I -

(1) In the Gitmo particle, CNN leaves us with this little propaganda turd: "The ruling came 18 days after the Supreme Court concluded that the approximately 270 men held at Guantanamo have a basic constitutional right to challenge their detention in federal courts, another setback for the Bush administration's anti-terror and war policies."

As if the Bush Administration had "anti-terror policies." God.

(2) See Wall-E. I kid you not. "Try blue! It's the new red!" is the new quote around the house. Also, "I don't want to survive. I want to live!" It's all good! Also, given that sometimes I seem to be aware of some Internet traditions others haven't seen yet, you can visit the the Website of the Buy-n-Large corporation. I especially got a kick out of the privacy policy.

Thanks to eight dear friends in six different states, I'll be at Worldcon this year, too! Better yet, I'll be pulling a trick I've done just three times before: hosting parties every night of the convention.

In 1992 and 1996, I did so with the Fan Lounge; in 1992 and 2000, I did so for Minneapolis in '73. (So you noticed that doubling up in '92 did you? Yep, me, too. 'Twas fun...once. I learned that running one party suite every night of the Worldcon is plenty for even my party platter. Parties all day and all night doesn't leave enough time for...shopping.)

This year the Big Fun is on behalf of the Reno in 2011 Worldcon bid. Whether you're at your first Worldcon or your 31st, after each great day with Making Light regulars and other erudite folks on the program, please come and party with friends old and new in the Reno suite. Good times, and All That Jazz....

See you on the Funway.

Innocents seduced by Tania!

Dang Serge, you make me sound so...Mrs. Robinsonesque. And I won't be 36 until next week!

But what I was really going to say is - It's my first Worldcon too! I'm in Denver right now for work, and I'll be back next month.

Be ready for lots of people complaining about figuring out the elevators and towers in the AdamsMark/Sheraton. Oy.

Turns out Mensa is having a meeting here as well. I was wearing my XKCD t-shirt this evening, and someone asked me if I was here for the Mensa convention. Hee.

#32: "you can visit the the Website of the Buy-n-Large corporation."

Thank you . . . . that is a work of genius. ("Anti-Consumer Groups are 'Opportunities'.", "BnL Acquires World's News Headlines.") I've seen lots of tie-in websites, but this one is deep, both in terms of links and in its versimilitude.

Tania @ 35... And I won't be 36 until next week!

Serge and Ginger: Dagon-it, I've forgotten what I was going to gibber. I seldom wander from Texas for the sake of events, but if the Mountain won't come to the Madness...

B. Durbin, you'll be pleased to hear that, though my geekly tendencies be legion, my hygeine tends towards the fastidious when there's running water available. If I'm camping, it goes out the proverbial window.

Speaking of camping, I know one of the chief pieces of advice (for Denver in specific for us Sea-level folk, and for WorldCons in general) is to stay hydrated...I was thinking of bringing my Camelbak, but it seems like it would be slightly odd. Perhaps being concerned about "slightly odd" is well on the absurd side regarding accessorizing at WorldCon, but, well, you know.

Still kind of pouty about not having figured out a way to get my big Djembe up there.

Very excited!

Scott Taylor #21: Not Major Briggs! Crappy.

Message sent re room, Madeleine.

I will not be at Worldcon, sadly.

But if there's a Making Light party, and anyone has a webcam and a Skype account, I can stay up till silly times with my laptop...?

So, about that Discovery Channel sidelight... wow, thanks!

Occasionally we miss out on some great things through not doing TV. I watched it yesterday morning, as I was up a little earlier than the rest of the household. When my 6-year old son got up, a bit later, I showed it to him.

About 10 minutes later he came running back asking me to play the video again. Then again. Then he got his astronaut figure and asked me to play it again while he held the astronaut up in orbit around the globe to act it out. We probably played it about 20 times more for him, before I had to declare a moratorium. Damn it, the world is awesome, and it's delightful when kids and adults can recognize it together.

(But a quibble, because I obsess about things like this: in the video for the first verse, that looks like it's obviously an orca to me, not a great white shark. If they couldn't find any pictures of great whites breaching, couldn't they have changed the lyric to "I love when orcas fly"?)

Boom de yada, boom de yada! I listened to that about 50 times at work yesterday, without the excuse of a small child, and my brain continued to play it on high rotation all evening. It's almost the perfect earworm.

This seems like a good place to mention that I'll have a supply of bright-yellow Fluorosphere buttons (with a space to write your name in) available at Denvention. They're free to any ML denizen; pick yours up at the Starcat Designs table in the dealer room.

Tania, great fabric!

Abi,

There will be a Making Light party*, and my Significant has been doing all sorts of nifty things with an HD camera, a laptop, and skype accounts.

We can has Talking Pictures. We can carry Abi around the room to join in on conversations, making them better, sonnet'r, faster... we can have the 6 Million baud party.

(Does anyone know what type of input jacks the TVs in the party hotel have?)

---------
* I'm volunteering to host it. Day and time not set-- we don't quite have our schedules scheduled for panels, dinners, etc.

Not so sure of the faux bid party (as in 2006), because we have a regular room, not a suite. (If I/we can co-host it elsewhere (as happened at Westercon), that might also exist, but would be mostly to entirely separate from MLgatherings.)

abi #41: I will not be at Worldcon, sadly. But if there's a Making Light party, and anyone has a webcam and a Skype account, I can stay up till silly times with my laptop...?

With any kind of luck, the Virtual Tucker Hotel video chat room should be operating during the convention.

Kathryn @ 46... We can carry Abi around the room to join in on conversations

Denvention will be my fifth Worldcon, and my first for which I have traveled outside of California. (Although there's a good chance I'll go to Montreal; that'll be my first outside the US.)

Kathryn, I was about to say "Guys, we have got to have a party at Denvention," but ... lo, there it is. If the schedules aren't set yet, I hope it's not the same night as the Tor party.

I will do my level best to furnish a pitcher of Scurvy Cure.

With any luck I will succeed in recognizing the correct date for the Tor party and the Making Light party. (In Anaheim two years ago I got the days mixed up and accidentally skipped the Tor party in favor of a game of Age of Steam: France. The game was fun, but I suspect the party would have been better.)

Wrong continent for Worldcon, but I will be at most of Stabcon (An RPG/Boardgaming con) in Stockport this coming weekend. Any UK Making Light regulars going to this?

Portion of Brain: Can we go to Denver?
Rest of Me: No.
PB: But we *like* Denver! It has the art museum, with the one painting we adore, and Coyote tapdancing! Also a Worldcon.
Me: And all the cool kids will be there?
PB: YES THEY WILL BE.
Me: All the cool kids but one, then.

I went to Denver with my lab group-- driving, even, because there were so many of us-- and we had a great time. Three of us skipped a conference session and lunch to go to the art museum, which turned into half a day out because it is a fun art museum with a lot to talk about. It's a fun place.

Virtual conventions?

I have a webcam, but I do not think I shall use it. I wouldn't want to shatter anyone's illusions.

#20: Someone with more poetic talent, or perhaps just more time, could probably write The Hunting of the Terrorist: Stupidity for Eight Years...

Teresa @ 50... I will do my level best to furnish a pitcher of Scurvy Cure.

Yum.
Or should I say 'yum'?
Will it help with Skwid's forgetting what to gibber, and with Ginger's prostration after her having the Punwich Horror revealed to her?

I'm surprised no one has so far mentioned this birdie in relation to this thread.

Can I ask questions about Tor books in an open thread? Well, I guess I can ask them. Will they be answered?

Anyway...How come the availability of US editions of Neal Asher's books published by Tor is so spotty? Amazon seems to be selling the UK hardback of Line War, though they are currently out of stock. I can't find any indication of a US edition on the Tor website (http://us.macmillan.com/TorForge.aspx). As far as I can tell, only the first and third (of five) books of the Cormac series are available in US editions. What's up? When will there be a US edition of Line War?

Alas, no Worldcon for me. New job and possibly a Pennsic run take its place. However, I am in the final mad throws of prep for CONvergence this week/end. 24 GoH, 22 repeating, including my favorite martian scientist.

A move may be coming up in my future. Anyone know what the fannish community in St. Louis is like?

2 weeks ago, my partner looked at me and informed me that we are going to Montreal for the 2009 Worldcon.

I am still happy about it, though I am sorry to miss Denver this year.

Nancy C Mittens @ 60... Montreal? Duly noted.

Tania @ 35

Wait. There will be Mensa members there who will have trouble figuring out the elevators? Why does this make me think of a Gary Larson cartoon?

I agree fervently about WALL-E. I hadn't really thought of it in connection with The Velveteen Rabbit, but that's exactly right. I was predisposed to like it going in (Pixar mechanical objects with personalities -- I've loved those since Luxo was just a snippet at animation festivals), but my roommate was only going along for the air conditioning -- except then it started with a show tune, and she was bouncing up and down in her seat with squee because she's a huge theater geek, and after that, she was hooked too. My 13-year-old daughter shared my predisposition.

There were the obligatory nods to Blade Runner, without being too heavy-handed; there was a Very Familiar Start-Up Noise which had us ALL bouncing in our seats; and the story line hooked us without provoking a lot of cynical eye-rolling, which doesn't happen so much any more with animated movies.

I'd go see it again.

Errr. A bit late, but re #4, just to prevent any possible mishaps for people vacationing in Japan--111 is not the emergency # in Japan.
We have 110 for the Police, and 119 for Fire or Paramedics.
Play Safe!

Oh boy!!! Open thread!!!1!!!111!!!MCXI!!

Diatryma @53: So what's your favorite pic at the Denver Art Museum? Mine are "The Warning Shadow" and "Dream of Arcadia," both on the American floor. Last time I tried to go there, I arrived too late. Maybe next decade.

I'm hoping I can go to Denvention this year. I bought my membership at NASFic, voted for the Hugos, got a room at the Grand Hyatt but due to a death in the family that wasn't covered by bereavement leave at work, I don't have enough vacation days accumulated. If my boss will approve, I can borrow the days, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Since this is an open thread, I'd also like to mention, completely off the Denvention topic, that a donation site has been created to help author advocates who have been sued by a certain literary agent. I don't know how much more I should say here on ML - but if you want to donate you can either visit Absolute Write and click on the button in my signature ( if that link doesn't work because you're not registered - although I think it should - just look for posts by Dawno) or visit my sadly not up to date blog for the donation button in my sidebar.

Alternatively, just go to PayPal and donate to the email "authoradvocatedonations@gmail.com"

I'm going to miss Worldcon again this year -- haven't made it to one since Boston in 2004, for want of money or vacation time or both. I'm liable to be retired before Montreal 2009, so vacation time won't be a problem, but it's too early to tell about the money.

TNH @ #30: I haven't even seen Iron Man yet

FWIW: I am apparently the only person in the world who found _Iron Man_ boring, but I did. The only thing that I didn't see coming a mile off was that a character _wasn't_ revealed to have done something. And that's not even getting into some of the not-very-subtext.

Scott @ 21

Oh, damn. I always liked him, and wary though I am at assigning character's attributes to actors, he always seemed a very warm and decent man. I first remember him as Scully's dad, and always smiled when he showed up in other shot-in-Canada movies/shows.

And *65*! So young!

dlbowman76 @ 31:

I'm doing a straw poll of advice from fans (and or slans, or even flans) on the expat experience. I've been offered a plum of a job opportunity...in Munich. Sounds cool, but what about the books? The movies? The fan community? Advice and help from anglophones living in old Yurp would be massively appreciated...Vielen dank!

Munich is a lovely place in many respects, thought it does apparently have the highest cost of living of any German city.

Books: there are two or three English-language bookstores, at least one of which has a (small) SF/fantasy section, and one of the main German bookstores actually has a (smaller) English-language SF section next to its German-language SF section. Also worth noting is that you can order English-language books from the German division of amazon.com (amazon.de), and they don't charge for shipping. You can also order books from British web sites without paying customs fees. Ordering from US web sites is certainly possible (and getting cheaper and cheaper as the dollar keeps sinking relative to the euro...), though shipping costs are higher and you will (sometimes) have to pay customs fees. A nifty tool in this regard is bookfinder.com, which will calculate total costs for books, including shipping charges to whichever country you specify (though they won't attempt to estimate customs fees).

Movies: Germany is, alas, one of those countries that dubs foreign movies. Since Munich is a relatively large, cosmopolitan city, however, there are some theaters that show movies in "original version" (with subtitles in German at some theaters, without subtitles at others). So it's possible to catch most major movies -- and some more obscure ones -- in English, though they may not stick around. I saw Iron Man when it played here, and I certainly expect to see Wall-E when it gets around to opening here....

There's also an annual "Fantasy Film Festival" which hits several cities in Germany, Munich included.

The only general problem related to movies that I can think of is non-English-language films, which will usually not have English subtitles, not even in the DVD version.[*] For the latter, you'd need to order a DVD from the UK or the US.)

Fan community: I'm afraid I've never been very directly involved in the fan community, so I don't know how to evaluate it for you. Munich does have two universities and a bewildering array of physics-related research institutes (including the one I work at), so you've certainly got the potential community there.

[*] Imagine the fun my friend and I had when we went to see David Lynch's Inland Empire and discovered that roughly a quarter of the film was in Polish. (Though I rather doubt the film would have made any more sense if we had been able to keep up with the German subtitles.)

sherrold #70: wary though I am at assigning character's attributes to actors

I can't stand to watch anything with Jason Alexander because Philip Stuckey was mean to Vivian Ward in Pretty Woman.

Actor Don S Davis, aka Hammond of Texas, aka Dana Scully's dad, apparently passed away today.

Skwid, on the hydration, most convention centers have water coolers hanging around, or should. You just have to remember to use them.

Oh, this con is going to be so frustrating on some levels because I'll be toting around the Dude and who knows how he's going to behave.

P.S. Don't forget that alcohol hits you faster and harder at altitude.

Just wanted to thank--was it Patrick?--for recommending the "1491" book. Read it recently and found it fascinating. Thanks!

John Mark Ockerbloom @ 24: That is a nicer scan, especially that it has the endpapers and covers. Thanks.

Michael Roberts @ 32: Inconceivable. I am aware of all internet traditions.

(Actually, I hadn't seen that and it made me giggle. Thank you.)

Today I am having an odd remix of Boom-de-ah-da and O Canada playing in my head. Happy Canada Day, y'all.

I'd like to second the thanks to Patrick for Sidelighting the explanation of the xkcd strip for us non-TV-watchers (well, that's not strictly true - when I am in a hotel, I hoover up Mythbusters episodes like nobody's business, but I don't get a lot of Discovery Channel otherwise). Both the strip and the commercial make me happy - not just that I live in a world with such cool stuff in it, but that I live in a world where many other people appreciate the cool stuff.

No Denvention for us. It is Unfortunately Timed in relation to the Jewish calendar, alas. Such things happen. However, Anticipation (which happens to be on similar dates in 2009) is very well placed indeed.

(It is interesting that there are two Worldcons in a row in early August. Is this a function of availability of function space?)

the Velveteen Robot?

This is kind of an odd request, but I need some old-style WordPerfect documents for a test I'm running, and we only have access to X4. While we can save as older version from X4, we have discovered from other software that save-as versions are often not the same as native.

There appears to be three main types of files, 4.2, 5.1, (possibly 5.2 as well) and 6 on, but I could use files from any version.

Does anyone have some old documents that are sufficiently impersonal (directions or something) that they don't mind them being tossed into a company directory for QA tests? My email is tavella@gmail.com.

JimR #64: Damn! Sorry I messed that up.

To reiterate, 111 is NOT the emergency number in Japan.

Re: The Center Fetish

The Center Cannot Hold.
There ain't nobody in the middle of the road but a bunch of dead armadillos, slouching towards Bethlehem to be born.

#80: Lean over here.

Little closer.

Yeah. Right there.

*SMACK!*

Kip W at 66-- I burst out laughing when I saw the Coyote tapdancing "Shuffle Off to Buffalo" painting, somewhere in the Native American section. I love the... "Soliloquy: Life's Fragile Fictions" by Moyo Ogundipe, and if I could find a print that had the right colors, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Next time I see my cousin in Denver, I may well ask him to take a few really good pictures of it... and maybe bring his laptop to be sure the pictures have the right colors. There's a big map-of-words in the contemporary art section that my friends and I just stood reading aloud. We loved the bubble game and the lights, and made fun of each other for walking into sudden walls.

It was an interesting day in terms of art classifications-- okay, so there's art, meaning Western art-meant-as-art. Then there's archaeology art, which is things which are artsy but not Art-- nice pots, carvings, et cetera. This bleeds into really nice furniture and cabinets, jewelry, things like that.

But then... Native American art. Which is everything from blankets made of feathers to puppets to tapdancing Coyote to saddles full of embroidery. African art is the gorgeous Ogundipe hung next to tribal masks.

I really wish I had written down whether or not the 'modern art' section had a geographical note. 'Modern European/White North American' would not make me as wary and annoyed as simply 'Contemporary Art'-- because where do the extant, currently-working artists who happen to fit two galleries go? Does an artist being Nigerian mean that his work will always go into the African Art wing, and never into the Modern Art? It has two contexts.

This is a weird extension of genre, but art isn't books. You can shelve Nalo Hopkinson in SF, African-American Literature, Fiction, Women's Studies, anywhere you like, all at once. You can't hang a painting on two walls.

It kind of makes me want to design an art museum like a starfish, oldest at the outside, reflecting how artistic traditions began isolated, but have mingled and continue to do so as it became possible.

You have any favorites?

tavella @ 81: I have sent you something that may be old enough for your purpose. I can't even open it anymore.

I have a dilemma for which I can't believe I didn't think of this place sooner. (delurking, Hi!)

While in high school (early 90s), we read a short story which kinda stuck with me-- except for that whole title and author thing. It took place in a society where every person was born with 3 chances and every time you were a victim (of anything), one of your chances got used up. I remember the main character was female and there was a bit about how she doubted that some neighbor kid (I think?) was unlikely to live very long since he'd already used one of his chances so young. Some classmate slapped him, or something.

I think the main plot of the story was someone from another complex (who might have been an unintroduced friend-of-a-friend or something), who was eager to see an execution since they were pretty rare and there was one scheduled for Main Character's complex/building/whatever. I vaguely remember this being risky for MC as well as the other woman, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, the story ended with the execution, with the audience watching in rapt silence as the executioner stalked the condemned around a giant stage for a while and then slit her throat or something.

I know we read "Harrison Bergeron" at about the same time, but it was out of an anthology so probably not also by Vonnegut. I hope one of you lovely and well-read souls can end my misery. I really want to reread it, and then maybe toss it at victim-blamers.

WALL*E has got some of the Rad Right in an uproar.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/01/right-wing-hates-wall-e/

Right Wingnuts don't like WALL*E

Here's a cooking question for the open thread:

I've been making a version of this recipe. (The font color/background choices are unfortunate there, sorry.) I have problems with step 2 every time. Step 2 says: "Heat the curry paste and oil in a large skillet over medium to medium-high heat. Cook the curry paste, mashing it and mixing it with the oil until well mixed and bubbling."

I can't figure out how to do that without it popping and spattering all over my hands (ow!) and the stovetop. Is there a trick to it, or should I just invest in a really long spoon and plan to clean the stovetop every time?

#88, Steve C. -

Glenn Beck: I can’t wait to teach my kids how we’ve destroyed the Earth. … Pixar is teaching. I can’t wait. You know if your kid has ever come home and said, “Dad, how come we use so much styrofoam,” oh, this is the movie for you.

I don't actually see this one as a bad thing. Beck (whoever that is) may think so, but it sounds like praise to *this* ecobaby. Okay, "Teach my kids how we've destroyed the Earth" is unbearably negative. But teach them what we're doing wrong so we can STOP? Oh yes.

Pollowitz just makes me laugh. I hope his campaign to boycott all the tie-in junk is
very successful.

Maybe I should be worried that these people will create enough of a noise that Disney and Pixar will listen, but mostly my reaction is, "Heh. Idiots."

RM Koske @ #89, "invest in a really long spoon"

Well, you know, sup with the devil and all that.

R.M. Koske #89:
I'm afraid the popping & splattering is part of the deal. It's because the curry paste has water in it that it spatters. A long spoon (or similar) helps. I also find that constant stirring helps to reduce the spatters.

In general, for best results, curry pastes should be cooked in oils until fragrant (the spices cooked enough to release aromas). If you can't smell it, it hasn't been cooked long enough.

Diatryma @85 - was it you or someone else who a few months ago was talking about museums and that presenting things by (say) date, but mixing country/tradition or presenting by medium but mixing dates wasn't the best way? Becuase I had the idea that you could organise your museum with an x-axis for time, a y-axis for geographical area and the z-axis for medium (so we might have, say, fabrics in the basement, paintings on the ground floor, ceramics on the first floor* etc.). This would be fantastic for comparing different places at the same times (an vice versa), influence of one medium on another etc. It's also unworkable as some cells have more and better examples than others, and if there's a museum with too much display space and not enough exhibits I've yet to hear of it. Still, I'd like to design a museum the way I'd design the database to catalogue it (although I'd probably run out of dimensions).

R M Koske @89 I'd invest in the long soon (and an aloe vera plant) and clean the stovetop everytime, but that's generally how I cook. On the other hand, despite what it says I'd probably cook it in a casserole dish which would reduce splatter; that's because I was given a cast iron Le Creuset when I was 19 and use it at every opportunity.

* if you come from a tradition where the ground floor is the first floor, forgive me

Do we all know about the Robot Hall of Fame?

#88: Heh. I predicted that would happen on a post on Whitechapel. You just KNOW that James Lileks is going to write a tut-tutting review wondering where Pixar went wrong.

BB's complaints against Wikimedia were dismissed in NJ State Court today, all but one with prejudice.

#90: Beck (whoever that is)

Glenn Beck is yet another of the AM Radio right-wing ranters.

Neil, that might have been me, but I don't remember it. I'd wonder how to do regions at all-- east to west? Change the organization of one axis as you move along the other to reflect different trade routes?

I think my ideal museum is huge, almost-perfectly organized (meaning that there's still room for a database conversation) and is populated by lots of friends who know things that aren't on the placards and wander around geeking out. Small games, do-it-yourself bits, and interesting architecture make everything better, too.

Bring the Camelbak, Skwid - you'll fit right in. All the cool kids in the high country are wearin' 'em!

Saw Iron Man and adored it. Will be seeing Wall-E on Saturday. Will be reading Steve C.'s link after that.

R. M. Koske @90: I don't actually see this one as a bad thing. Beck (whoever that is) may think so, but it sounds like praise to *this* ecobaby. Okay, "Teach my kids how we've destroyed the Earth" is unbearably negative. But teach them what we're doing wrong so we can STOP? Oh yes.

"We'll tell our children's children why
We grew so tall, and reached so high
We left our footprints in the Earth
And punched a hole right through the sky"
-Marillion, "Season's End" (Pop music warnings about global warming in the '80s? Why yes!)

Stoopid commercial: "Are you exposed to toxins from the food, water, and air we breathe?"

If you breathe food and water, you have worse problems. Just moving that 'the' would fix it.

"[The Christian right] is so out of control that even the Satanists are saying 'All right, you guys are being really mean.'"

--Margaret Cho

#92, Soon Lee -

Okay. I thought as much, but it was worth asking. Thanks!

#97, James D. Macdonald -

That's about what I expected.

Xopher, that Margaret Cho quote entertains me, since the only Satanists I know are the sort to politely ask the audience to please stop crowd surfing, because security's getting overworked in the heat and the girls in the front are getting kicked in the head, so everyone cool it and we'll all have a better time, huh?

The really impressive part is, it worked.

AKICIF (or at least AKICIML?)

Later this month, I'm going to Tales of the Cocktail, a bartending convention, with a focus on liquors and mixed drinks: history and how-to. [My husband tends bar; I'm going largely because it sounds like a lot of fun]

Problem is, I have very low alcohol tolerance, and don't want to make myself sick and thus miss out on panels (or worse).

Any tips on things I can do to help get thru the tastings?

I was thinking it would be helpful to bring along some snack foods, to avoid drinking on an empty stomach, but any specific foods to gravitate towards or avoid (proteins, carbs, etc)?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

I have heard that high fat foods slow alcohol absorption, but I am not an expert.

Were I doing this myself, with low alcohol tolerance AND my own poor sugar metabolism, I'd be going for high protein rather than high carb snacks, because I know that alcohol and crashing blood sugar heterodyne for me. Maybe there's a reason besides the high salt content that peanuts are a traditional bar snack.

Bringing bottled water and drinking more water than you do alcohol will help to keep you hydrated and forestall hangovers.

Other than that... I guess I'd be trying to taste in little sips, not full drinks or even large mouthfuls.

Lis Riba #104:
Having food helps, though I wouldn't know what sort to recommend. My alcohol consumption usually goes with food. Drinking lots of water is also a good thing - so you don't get dehydrated.

With winetastings, I'd spit the wine out* after tasting. Failing that, you could reduce alcohol intake by either getting you husband to pour you a smaller portion, or alternatively, don't feel obliged to finish every single drink.

*But not if it's a really good wine. Spitting is standard practice at formal winetastings, but 'civilians' tend to prefer to swallow.

Ugh, typo.

"your husband."

Lis Riba @104: Another low-alcohol-tolerance person here. Like Rikibeth, I recommend high-protein foods, although keep some complex carbs in the mix. Definitely eat (before you start drinking) and keep eating. Drink slow and keep drinking water in between.

I don't know how liquor/mixed drink tasting works -- is it Done to spit? If not, sip just enough to taste, and don't be ashamed to leave some behind (or donate it to someone else).

Finally, avoid carbonated beverages as much as possible, since carbonation tends to speed alcohol absorption.

Yes Rikibeth, I know. Cho was using a stereotype to make a point. Not too many people actually know Satanists personally.

Xopher, that's why it entertained me so much -- the popular stereotype (which makes the joke funny one way) vs. my actual experience (which makes it funny in yet another way).

Sometimes I think this IS Bizzarro World.

Steve, #88: Wow. They sound like a bunch of 3-year-olds kicking their heels and holding their breath until they turn blue.

Xopher, #101: It's not just the Satanists. And look who's running that website mentioned in the article!

I have wanted with a great wanting want to go to a Real Live Con!! since I first read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon stories in smelly, ink-smeared back issues of Analog from the 25-cent rack at the library. I hate you all.

Hey, apropos of completely nothing, I was wondering about sociopathy. M. Scott Peck tells a story about two clients on Guam, both deathly afraid of snakes, which is a bad thing to be on Guam because it basically ends your life. One client said she knew she had a problem and needed to change, and that was a neurosis that Peck could treat. The other ranted about the lazy natives who wouldn't get rid of the snakes and the sloppy military contractors who wouldn't build houses that kept out snakes and blah blah blah, and that was a personality disorder that he couldn't treat.

So: Have there ever been any self-aware sociopaths? People who are stunned to realize that they fit the definition of "sociopath," that there really is a hidden connection between speech and action that is clear to everyone BUT them, that when people behave as if their consciences prick them they are being neither duplicitous nor dupes, that their emotional landscape is lacking some landmarks, etc.? And if so . . . is there any therapy that can help a willing sociopath learn how to operate in socially acceptable ways?

I happened to be talking with someone online who insisted that he was a diagnosed sociopath and that he was struggling hard to change, and ever since then I've wondered.

Ralph Giles: And that quotation... was the 2nd Court of Appeals "Snarking", in a big way.

The Chicago Tribune article has a serge-worthy headline. Court ruling poetic justice for detainee

The ML-ish party for Canada Day was great fun. Faces to names. David: I did the same thing... scheduled the one free day we had to go... for the wrong day. It was greatly depressing.

I will not be at Denvention. I will be at Montreal if I have to beg money and hop freight trains.

Tavella @ 81: I might have access to some older versions of WP.

Jim: I wish Beck was limited to Radio, but some one of the cable networks has given him a chunk of mid-day time.

Lis: Take sips. Eat something between sips. Fats slow absorbtion. You still get as affected, but it takes longer. Chocolate is good, if you don't feel like packing a bunch of sausage/bacon.

Drink Water, or juices to prevent hangovers.

The way my life feels these days, if the Worldcon was held in Scunthorpe I doubt I'd be able to get away for long enough to have any fun.

And there are too many topics floating around blogs that I don't want to touch with the proverbial 10-foot pole.

Oh well. I guess it's back to making weird CGI porn.

(Humanoid, sentient, and willing: the rest is commentary.)

Jenny @ #112:

Personality disorders - and that is what "sociopathy" is, officially labeled "antisocial personality disorder" - are extremely difficult to change. They're deeply integrated into a person's character. They used to be considered nearly untreatable, but there are some therapies now which seem to make headway.

Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is considered the therapy of choice for borderline personality disorder; I don't know whether it's also applied to treat antisocial personality disorder. Some psychologists seem to think the latter is pretty much untreatable, but I don't know that that's the official line.

I have some indication that DBT is effective on personality disorders. Our foster daughter ranks very high on test scales for both borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, along with a bunch of other problems like mood disorders, possibly bipolar. Thankfully, we did not write her off. The last six months of DBT has seemed to make a big difference. She still has a tendency to be very self centered and think as though the world revolves around her, to blow off thing that's not immediately appealing, and to see everything as absolute good/bad - but now she's doing these in a way closer to how an average teenager can be like that. She is definitely less manipulative and more willing to engage honestly than before. (Note this is following hospitalization and nearly two years of other therapy. She turned out to be a much more troubled kid than we had any idea when we took her in.)

Some of that may be simply that we had the faith to stick with her even when we didn't want to, and to agree to take her back in when she was done with the various residential and group-home treatment programs, even after 18.

I am a bit suspicious of M. Scott Peck in general; some of what he writes rings very true, but at other times he seems prepared to see the Hand of Satan in ordinary human bad behavior, and I wonder how much that clouds his observation and interpretation.

P.S. I'm not a psychologist, I only play one on the Internet.

Wow, Dave, you're getting better and better at that stuff. I admire the way that's posed, lit, and framed, as well as the rendering.

Terry Karney @ #113, the TV channel which carries Glenn Beck is CNN's Headline News. I have yet to figure out how a network which takes itself as seriously as CNN does could put two radical right-wingers like Nancy Grace and Glenn Beck on its headline service.

For that matter, why are there two full-length talk/rant programs on what's billed as a Headline News Service in the first place? Never have figured out that logic either.

BBC News 24 shows various non-live-news programs.

Even with a lot of the studio set being virtual, these days, I suppose they need some time to sweep the floor and such.

The RIAA is at it again.

I get the impression that they're grabbing for as much as they can get now, in the anticipation of having a less greed-oriented administration to deal with after the election. Sort of like the oil companies.

Well, saw the movie "Wanted" staring Angelina Jolie last night. Probably give it a 7.0 on the scale, which translates into a solid matinee.

I think it was slightly better than IronMan, and I gave IronMan a 7.5. Hm. But if I go 7.6, it's an evening price. Think I might have to drop IronMan to 7.0.

Didn't take a counter with me to figure out the warpr0n score, but it's probably on par with V for Vendetta. The main difference is the movies infatuation with showing bullets go through people in super slow motion. But the body count is probably on par with V for Vendetta, so, probably around the same score.

I'll have to go through the DVD to tally the full score though.

I wonder how much the RIAA members want for a live performance by a musical group not under contract to any RIAA member?

Rare? Maybe not.

I haven't read it, but Michael Wood's The Story of India is the companion book to last year's BBC2 series marking the 60th anniversary of India's independence, which I did see. Amazon.com doesn't have any customer reviews, but amazon.co.uk does.

Happy Birthday, Sajia!!!

I saw Wanted this past weekend, Greg, and enjoyed it. I would agree with your 7.0 rating, but would give Iron Man an 8.5 or so, so obviously our opinions differ on some things.

Also, I think you're probably neglecting gur cnffratref bs 4 be 5 pbzzhgre genva pnef from your bodycount tally, which I suspect the Loom of Fate did not...

Happy Birthday, Saija -- a little sumpin is on your LJ.

Love, C.

I'm teaching summer school, and the following, ahem, gem turned up in an essay comparing the movement for equal rights for gays and lesbians to the movements for civil rights for women and ethnic/racial minorities: "Thus this group has attempted to raise pubic interest on the idea of constitutional protection to sexual minorities as well as several other topics but seemingly is closely correlated to some of the same principles currently effecting minorities in the United States as well."

"Not too many people actually know Satanists personally."

Strangely enough, I do... former Satanist, actually.

I have a lot of strange friends.

Fragano, does the writer of that think they're graded primarily on wordcount?

Fragano@ 126: Er, I'd be inclined to think they wanted to raise something else besides "pubic interest", but maybe that's just me.

P J Evans: #128: Quite possibly. The essay as a whole had a strong odour of the lamp. However, she was trying to make an argument. That, at least, was good.

Ginger #129: Me too.

B. Durbin @ 127, me too. I more or less understand it as Objectivism taken to more of an extreme, and called Satanism just to mess with people.

In other satanist news, we have a real live satanic panic going on. That story, from my hometown newspaper, is a triumph of the bizarre. Rape and assault are serious charges, but -- satanic rituals? Really?

It's probably not a good idea to be active in politics if you indulge in extreme sexual kinks. And that could easily be the truth behind the story.

See, as an example from the British legal system, the "Operation Spanner" case. Essentially, in English law there are precedents for the idea that you cannot lawfully consent to some activities.

And, having said that, it could easily be as blatantly criminal as the story implies.

But the odd thing is that the Satanic element, if it is truly present, makes more sense as sexual role-play.

Really, it's far too early to say, but my five cents is teetering towards it being something weird that went wrong, rather than it being deliberate criminal abuse.

In clarity of noon the forest glows,
we listen as the leaves begin to fall
and see in proper place a single rose.

We got our answer rightly on the nose:
the world, we found out now, is very small,
in clarity of noon the forest glows.

There is no reason for the gate to close,
you note the light upon the garden wall
and see in proper place a single rose.

Praise of the moment would seem grandiose,
there is so much that we have to recall;
in clarity of noon the forest glows.

This is no time for slumber or repose,
you have to set things up within the hall
and see in proper place a single rose.

Now is the time for one who thinks he knows
the meaning of the days when they are tall;
in clarity of noon the forest glows;
and see! in proper place, a single rose.

Open Thread question: why was there such a surge of interest in the movie V for Vendetta last summer?

Reason I'm asking: My partner was watching it on DVD, and wondered whether it had come out pre-2000. I said no, it was quite recent, within the last couple of years. He said absolutely not. We looked it up on IMDB, and apparently it came out in 2005.

But... I remember the huge fuss about it roughly a year ago! We had a long discussion here, which was the genesis of Greg's warp0rn scale, and half of my friendslist on LJ was suddenly using V icons. So what happened last year to stir it up again? Was that when the DVD came out, or what?

#135: Dunno. Perhaps an adaptation of another film came out which sparked a parallel discussion?

I remember a discussion about torture somehow linked to a long side-discussion about "V". Maybe that was it?

#135 - a quick glance suggests that the big V for Vendetta discussion was on the November 5th Post Penny for the Guy.

Re-reading my post to Jenny, I see that I mostly went off on a huge tangent with little bearing on what she asked about. So, uhh... sorry.

I rapped this to Shiva today, who was not impressed. Fortunately, we don't have the parts for this.

Fragano re: "pubic interest": I remember taking a sociology class in college where we were discussing something about crime and punishment, and one student asked a question about "penile law," and I could just tell that she knew to be careful not to say the wrong thing, which is to say exactly what she was saying.

This was at NYU, by the way.

And today's paper shows that Dave Bell @133 got it in one. Still no evidence on criminality or not, but apparently Satan was not involved.

Including bonus interview with the actual Church of Satan!

Fragano @ 126... Maybe your student was feeling crotchety.

Chris Quinones #140: *Snort*. In grad school, at UCSD, one of my colleagues in a seminar circulated a paper she hadn't properly proofread which referred to a 'horny problem'. This wasn't as bad as the paper in which a fellow student (now one of the leading figures in the area of Latin American studies) in pressing an analogy announced that the angles of a triangle added up to 360 degrees, causing me, the non-mathematician*, to have to point out to him, that this wasn't the case in Euclidean geometry.

* I and the horny problem student were the B+ students in stats.

Serge #142: Perhaps, or feeling swell.

Fragano... I also notice that your student referred to "...some of the same principles currently effecting minorities..."

Effect:
1. Something brought about by a cause or agent; a result.
2. The power to produce an outcome or achieve a result; influence.

So, those principles are causing the existence of the minorities?

Serge #145: Right. Or fairy dust. I've all but given up on the affect/effect confusion.

A question for those who are quite familiar with the First Lady of Crime...

My wife and I have been watching the Hercules Poirot movies. I've noticed that Suchet's Poirot is a big romantic (in a small package). Also in One, Two, Buckle My Shoe(*), he outright says that the fate of nations concerns him far less than that of the individual. How close is his Poirot to Agatha Christie's?

----------

(*) "Hey, that is Chritopher Eccleston!"

An apparently complete copy of the original Metropolis has been discovered in Argentina. The version originally shown in Germany, in 1927, has long been believed lost. About a quarter of the movie had been cut out, and only a few hints at the content have been discovered.

But it now seems that a complete print was sent to Argentina in 1928, eventually buried in a museum collection until it was realised that it was much longer than expected.

#143: a fellow student … in pressing an analogy announced that the angles of a triangle added up to 360 degrees, causing me, the non-mathematician*, to have to point out to him, that this wasn't the case in Euclidean geometry.

Well, it is the case, if you measure angles by the bend* – how much each deviates from a straight line – rather than the interior; e.g. 90, 135, 135 instead of 90, 45, 45. (Subtract the angle from 180 degrees to convert.) Not only that, but every polygon's angles add up to (some multiple of) 360 degrees when measured this way, not just triangles'.

* If there's a standard mathematical name for this, I don't know it.

Perhaps I should clarify that I don't mean that He Was Right And You're Wrong; just presenting something I find interesting.

a fellow student... in pressing an analogy announced that the angles of a triangle added up to 360 degrees, causing me, the non-mathematician, to have to point out to him, that this wasn't the case in Euclidean geometry.

"Well, naturally; I majored in Blasphemous Hyperborean Geometry." (Ph.D., Cornell, 1979; Ph.Nglui, Miskatonic, 1984.)

Fragano #143:

I think I may have mentioned the student (female) who said that "the bust of Nefertiti had been arousing to art historians".

Dave Bell #148: When I heard that news, I got chills like you wouldn't believe. When are we going to be able to see this? I have to see it!

ajay @ 151... I majored in Blasphemous Hyperborean Geometry

It wasn't easy either. My dog, Tyndalos, kept eating my assignments before and after the deadlines.

Fragano, I had a philosophy professor in college whose response to inept uses of the language was to take a big red pen, circle the offending part, and write "EVIL" in huge capital letters. If your paper were particularly messed up, he might take a fist full of markers and do a huge spiral out from the problem areas. It would look as though he'd bled on the paper.

This was the same professor who declared that notes should never be taken in pencil, and would defenestrate any pencils thus used.

"Immanuel Kant, 1724-1804. Put it in your shorts so it's the last thing you see."

Joann #152: Tut, tut!

Kevin Reid #149: Eek!!

ajay #151: Ah, they teach some complex lower mathematics at Miskatonic.

B. Durbin #155: I wish I had the courage to do that!

Serge @147: I had the misfortune to read the novels after first seeing Suchet play the character, but to me the way he plays it has always seemed a perfect fit with the way Christie wrote it.

Kevin Reid @149: I think the term you don't know is "external angle".

Random open thread question: can somebody tell me how necessary it is for F. Paul Wilson's Repairman Jack novels to be read in order. I have acquired two of them (Conspiracies and Hosts) from a local second hand shop and am wondering whether I should read these to find out if I like the series and then order the rest, or just bite the bullet and pay full price for the first one. I tried to skim the wikipedia article, but it seems a bit too spoilery for my tastes. I've been left with the impression that it might be OK for some of the books but not others... does that sound sensible?

Jules @ 160... I had the misfortune to read the novels after first seeing Suchet

Problem with the writing?

Fragano @ 159... I take this to mean that you don't demonstrate the fine points of your teaching by bringing a meat cleaver into the classroom like Edward James Olmos did in Stand and Deliver?

A question for the radio folk here about: Does the Morse code key part in Enigma's Age of Loneliness (Club mix) actually say something? Or is it, er, just music?

Example of the song (with cheesy video!) here if tubing is your thing.

Serge #162: Being a meek and mild sort, I merely keep reminding students that when they put words on a page they are committed to those words, and that words have meanings.

Fragano @ 164... I merely keep reminding students that (...) words have meanings

Alas those words go in one ear and out the other?

I just noticed that the SciFi Channel is celebrating the Fourth of July with a Twilight Zone marathon today and tomorrow. How appropriate.

Open threadery:

In regard to TNH's campaign scam article.

I live in the 13th District of Georgia, and I'd noticed a little while back, on the eminently useful OpenSecrets.org, the anomaly of a no-hoper Republican challenger having a war chest nearly three times as large as that of the Democratic incumbent in a safe Democratic district. I'd wondered about it. Especially since I'd seen no activity by the candidate, and her web site was standard Republican pap. I've seen no yard signs, no bumper stickers, no advertising of any kind. I grant, it's a long way to the general election, but I'd have expected some visibility.

One of my colleagues, who has campaigned for some candidates (including a challenger for the Democratic nomination in the district two years ago) wondered if it was because the fact that the incumbent, David Scott, having been challenged two years ago, might have been seen as vulnerable by someone in the Republican Party. But, as is now clear, that doesn't seem to be the case. I am amazed at the naïveté of Ms Hunnicutt and her campaign staff (especially at the idea that she can manage with a sum that's less than half of Congressman Scott's funds in her war kitty). I'm less amazed at what this scam says about the current state of the Republican Party. This is the post-modern KKK: korrupt kriminal klowns.

Serge #165: Well, all I can do is try. I hope that some of what I say sticks. That's the most that any teacher can do.

Fragano #156:

You will have to Aton for that. Amun, well, really ...

Fragano @ 168... Yup. There usually is one who wants to learn, and that's the one who'll remember you decades from now.

Susan has posted her Balticon report, in which she finds that De ayed Gree, whatever that means, and where we learn that some Tor editors apparently are insufficiently remunerated. Oh, and there are some really neat masquerade photos.

joann #169: You, ma'am, are clearly in de Nile about this.

Serge @ 147:

I'd say Suchet's portrayal is pretty accurate, but it's been many years since I've read the books.

My flaky memory also tells me that Poirot was a huge romantic who had a penchant for auburn-haired women.

Fragano #172:

Anubis would cause a problem.

mcz @ 173... As for Miss Marple, I rather liked Margaret Rutherford in the role, but I don't know how close she was to the stories's depiction of the character.

mcz, #173: Close -- it was Hastings who had the penchant for auburn hair. Poirot was inclined to be sympathetic to ingenues, but his own taste ran toward flamboyant women such as the Countess Vera Rossakoff.

And yes, being "more interested in the fate of individuals than in the fate of nations" hews pretty closely to the way book!Poirot is written.

joann # 174: Perhaps it comes from being Set in your ways. It happens to the Bast of us.

Serge #175:

Margaret Rutherford was about as far as you could get. Joan Hickson was *perfect*. The more recent Geraldine McEwan entries were interesting, but I thought the character was a little too, well, obviously knowing, with a slightly malicious overtone. I always got the feeling from the books that any knowlingness on Miss Marple's part was always carefully hidden and came as a big surprise to others. Even when they were being reminded, gently, for the 49th time.

Fragano #177:

I always aim for the heights of Luxor. That way everyone else can Giza and despair ... no, wait, that's another category.

Lee @ #176:
Ah yes! Now I remember. (I have a liking for the countess, her Hell-club and her monster dog Cerberus as well).

Serge @ #175:
I don't remember seeing Rutherford's Marple, but I like Joan Hickson's work very much.

Oddly enough, my favourite Christie book is The Mysterious Mr Quin, a one-off collection of short stories. Some of them have that quality of enchantment that I've found in the works of Elizabeth Goudge and Gerald Durrell.

Has anyone else followed the news lately? It appears that our torture techniques[1] were actually derived, probably unintentionally, from Chinese torture techniques used to elicit false confessions from American captives in Korea.

You can see a discussion of this on Obsidian Wings. I saw it on the front page of a couple newspapers yesterday. Incredibly, it doesn't seem to be front-page news on BBC or El Pais today. (Embarrassing revelations about American torture of detainees has ceased to be news, sort of like unrest in the Middle East or corruption in Mexico.)

I simply cannot wait to see how this is spun by the right as still more evidence that they somehow backed the good guys. Because the hard core of the right is so invested in believing in their guys, they're like the victim of a con who is so convinced, he's ending friendships with people who point out to him that he's being conned.

[1] Which we weren't really doing, because Americans Don't Do Those Things. Besides, the bastards had it coming, even the 14 year olds sold to us by their families' enemies in Afghanistan. And what we're doing is not torture, it's just harsh interrogation techniques that cause hardened terrorists facing a death sentence to crack, beg for mercy, and spill everything they've ever even imagined doing. And besides, what're you, some kind of pinko liberal that wants to give Osama Bin Laden a chance to re-enact the OJ trial?

joann #174: I think using Anubis is illegal most places, other than in The Netherlands.

joann #179: It would not be Pharaoh to criticise you.

#153: a DVD news site I check occasionally says a Metropolis DVD with the recovered footage is coming in 2009 from Kino.

Albatross@181: I don't know if I'd grant "unintentionally". According to the NYT story I read, the chart used in US training came from a 1957 study *called* "Communist Attempts to Elicit False Confessions from Air Force Prisoners of War", and the chart in the original paper says right at the top "Communist Coercive Methods for Eliciting Individual Compliance". It's kind of hard to miss, in its original form.

I haven't seen direct links to the study in news accounts, but it's online. You can read it here.

The issue of the medical journal it was published in has a bunch of related papers on Chinese Communist coercion as well (including one by Robert J. Lifton, and one dealing with the legal background of the Chinese "interrogation" methods). Links to the full issue, the journal, and a few other online resources can be found in a recent blog post of mine.

I celebrated today, the third of July, as the beginning of a new time, by harvesting the first vine-ripened tomatoes from two of the twelve varieties I'm growing this year. Ahhh!

Not that growing tomatoes is a new thing, but it's never been more than four varieties in any given year. (I dropped into the Community Gardens next the Kaiser hospital, after the final check of my lens-replacement, and they had a vacant plot for a Senior Citizen ....)

Whether I will celebrate, tomorrow, the anniversary of the establishment of my country's Ideals, and its Achievements over the years, or wear Mourning, is still an open question.

Wesley #184: Well, I guess I can live with peeing in my pants until 2009.

Speaking of peeing, I just came across (on Wikipedia) this great quote from Dmitri Shostakovich, about one of my all-time favorite pieces of music, his 8th String Quartet: "It is a pseudo-tragic quartet, so much so that while I was composing it I shed the same amount of tears as I would have to pee after half-a-dozen beers".

As for celebrating the 4th, I'm going to do what I always do, which is watch Elvis movies. Every year since the late 90s my oldest friend and I have watched The Trouble With Girls and one other Elvis movie--the second one changes every year, and is usually terrible, although some of them (notably Harum Scarum and especially Speedway) are pretty damn fun. This year I rented Kissing Cousins, in which Elvis plays two different people. I'm guessing that, despite the title, hot Elvis-on-Elvis action is too much to hope for.

joann and mcz... Like I said earlier, I liked Rutherford's character, but I had this suspicion from the more recent movies that their Miss Marple was so different that they probably hewed closer to Christie's. As for Miss Marple knowing more than people expected even after the 49th time, that reminds me how again and again and again Hamilton Berger was sure that this time he'd get the upper hand on Perry Mason. And again and again and again Bergfer got his butt kicked.

So I'm not doing anything for the Fourth.

The new house has a flagpole mounting. By this time next year, we'll have a pole for it, and a Stars and Stripes*. But not yet.

I miss the Fourths of July from my childhood, with street parties and parades (small town stuff). Tell me tales of my home country, people. What are you Americans up to?

-----
* Also, a saltire for St Andrews Day and Burns Night, and a Dutch flag for Koniginnedag and similar occasions.

abi @ #189, There are seven or eight professional fireworks shows scheduled for Oahu. The biggest is probably the one at Ala Moana Beach Park, near Waikiki. We won't be attending, but we expect the television people to show us some on the late news.

I'm crossing my fingers that I don't need to sedate my 16-year-old dog this year, since she's already taking enough meds and I worry about interactions. Who knew there were anti-dementia pills for dogs? (Selegiline, if anyone's curious.)

Serge, #171, I assumed everybody knew that was Delayed Green, so I didn't comment on it over there.

abi, #189, I'll likely watch The Twilight Zone while I do regular things. Although I'm considering hacking back the ivy while sitting in the chair on the porch if it doesn't rain. I was at the post office today and the flag was too low and loose and then I realized they were putting up the POW-MIA flag for the holiday. Too bad they can't leave it up all the time.

Abi, I hope you will have no occasion to fly the US flag inverted, this time next year.

abi -- we won't be doing anything specifically "American" or celebratory today, but I suspect we'll all be a little nostalgic for last year, when we were visiting my mom. On the Fourth we watched fireworks from the 25th story of a Des Moines office building. I'm pretty sure that not all those fireworks had a permit. ;-)

I will probably enjoy some more of the West African Ginger Beer made from the recipe that Joel Polowin shared recently. Excellent stuff, and very easy to make. Thanks again, Joel.

167: been reading that story too. Now I'm thinking of ... turning it into a musical!

The Campaigners!

At the K Street office of legendary campaign consultant Max "Mudflap" Bialystock, a plot takes shape...

-- "Why, Mr Bialystock, it's funny, but you could make more money from a failed campaign than you could from a victory."
-- "Say that again?"
-- "All you have to do is raise a lot of cash from every interest group there is, and do whatever you want with it. You could spend some on the campaign, but the rest you could just, you know, keep. As long as the candidate loses, no one's going to ask to be repaid. But you'd need to be sure you'd lose; otherwise your donors would start asking for favours as soon as your candidate got into office, and you'd never be able to repay them all."
-- "All you'd need would be a candidate who was certain to lose. A dud. A hopeless, catastrophic, clinically insane dud. Leo, you're brilliant!"

And while Leo interviews a succession of no-hoper extremists, Max departs on his money-raising trip into Little Old Bigot Land...

serge: The Poirot series feels right to me (though Hastings is a bit less of a boob in the books). I have never seen a Marple I thought very good.

abi: I am not working a show, because I am afraid I will be called out to deal with forest fires. That will be a royal pain, because odds are it will be for 30 days, and there is no one home but me, company expected before 30 days are up and a host of animals, plants, problems to attend.

So I'll be at a friends, hoping to see a good show from the roofs of Century City.

Terry, #195: Depends on which book. In all of them, he's portrayed as a little dim and with zero learning curve, but in Curtain he's just AWFUL. It's probably no coincidence that my favorite Poirot stories are the ones in which he does not appear.

abi @ 189... What are you Americans up to?

Well, Sue and I will go have a picnic at a park somewhere. (I'm not sure of the details, as my involvement mainly was to buy some baloney - or rather, very thinly sliced ham.) Tonight, we'll probably watch our DVDs of 1776 (see the Founding Fathers dance!) and/or of Yankee Doodle Dandy (see James Cagney dance!). Then, at about 8:30pm, we'll walk to the top of our backyard, from where we'll be able to see the fireworks going off around town.

Marilee @ 191... About "De ayed Gree', I had figured out that it was supposed to say 'Delayed Green', but I had no idea how green could be delayed, aside from the fact that my employer still hasn't refunded the cost of that plane ticket.

Terry Karney and Lee...Did you ever see the early the movie The ABC Murders, in which Poirot was played by Tony Randall? I did, a long time ago, which is why I don't remember if it was absolutely dreadful.

abi #189:

This whole week, our goddaughter is out here visiting, and so we've been doing things that will be fun for both a 13 year old[1] and our much younger (7,3) sons. (The teddy-bear factory was a big win.) Tonight, we'll all go watch fireworks and hope not to get rained on too much.

[1] It still messes with my mind that my goddaughter is now old enough to be interested in boys, and that she will hop between being excited by the clothes for the cute teddy bears and wanting to flirt with the cute boy that walked by.

From Lisa Goldstein's The Red Magician...

They climbed up the ramp to the ship. It was already filled with American soldiers returning home. They ran to the railing, and Kicsi thought how odd it was that they were all so anxious to get a last look at the land they were leaving. Vörös's hair was a small dot of color among the people on the dock. He waved at her.

The ship left the dock. She waved back to him and continued to wave until he was out of sight. The coastline faded as slowly as a smile fade.

She turned and looked to the west, to America.

abi (189): I'm going to watch my new DVD copy of 1776, then go eat barbecue. Later, I'll lie awake wishing that the local idiots setting off illegal firecrackers would get rained out so I can sleep.

skwid@124: RE: "Wanted" warpr0n scoring.

Gur genva jerpx jnf pnhfrq ol n aba cynlre punenpgre fynzzvat ba gur oenxrf, pnhfvat n qrenvyzrag, nf n erfhyg bs gur svtug tbvat ba orgjrra cynlre punenpgref, juvpu dhnyvsvrf nf pbyyngreny qnzntr. Vg jbhyq or jne ce0a vs gur zbivr qvq ABG fubj pbyyngreny qnzntr, guhf zvavzvmvat gur pbfg bs jne. Vs gur qrnguf ner gur erfhyg bs pbyyngreny qnzntr naq gur zbivr fubjf gubfr qrnguf, gura vg qbrfa'g pbhag nf jne ce0a.

Vg jbhyq unir orra qvssrerag zngu vs gur crbcyr ba gur genva unq nyy jbexrq sbe bar fvqr bs gur cynlre punenpgref be bgure. Gura gurl jbhyq unir pbhagrq nf cncre gnetrgf rvgure sbe be ntnvafg gur gbgny jne ce0a fpber.

Ohg orvat pvivyvnaf pnhtug va gur pebffsver bs n onggyr npghnyyl fubjf ernyvfgvp qnzntr sebz n jne. Gur hygvzngr jne ce0a irefvba bs mreb pbyyngreny qnzntr vf jura fhcreurebrf unir n znffvir onggyr va n pvgl naq gur tbbq thlf ner fubbgvat jrncbaf naq guebjvat ohffrf ng gur onq thlf, ohg gubfr cebwrgvyrf naq jrncbaf nyjnlf snyy ba rzcgl cnegf bs gur fgerrg be ba n "pbairavragyl rzcgl jnerubhfr".

Serge @ #188: I liked Rutherford's character, but I had this suspicion from the more recent movies that their Miss Marple was so different that they probably hewed closer to Christie's.

My father, who's read a lot of Christie, watches the new Geraldine McEwan Marples primarily in order to find out what strange new way they've found to warp the story *this* week. (There's at least one where they changed the identity of the murderer, and I think even one where they changed the identity of the *victim*.)

I try to be a receptive audience for his snarking, but not having read any of the Marples myself, the only episode I was able to join in on was 'By the Pricking of My Thumbs'. ("Item one: Since when has By the Pricking of My Thumbs had Miss Marple in it..?")

Iowa City's firework were moved from City Park-- I should go see if it's still underwater or if it's just possible structural damage to the Park Bridge-- to Hubbard Park, which is right by the IMU. In some of the flood pictures posted, you can see this tiny little chapel, a wall of sandbags, and behind it the river-- that's Hubbard Park. Spectators can sit on the grass next to Old Capitol and the other big limestone buildings. I'm kind of disappointed that no one I know is heading to my building's roof. It's close! It's a clear line of sight with no trees! It is a roof!

Last year, the fireworks fizzled-- the computer setting them off crashed hard. I'd just had my wisdom teeth out and was happy to have recovered so quickly.

Before the explosions begin, a friend and I are planning to see WallE.

Fragano:

Thus this group has attempted to raise pubic interest on the idea of constitutional protection to sexual minorities as well as several other topics but seemingly is closely correlated to some of the same principles currently effecting minorities in the United States as well.

To quote the former head copy editor at The New Yorker: "If you tapped this sentence on end it would never stop rocking."

Linkmeister:

I would be more impressed with The Robot Hall of Fame if they had inducted Huey, Dewey, or Louie--if for no other reason than it might get someone to cough up one of the drone suits (I remember seeing an article that said Trumbull had one sitting under the CE3K Mothership in part of his office) long enough so I could measure it. In college I found an account of a simple bipedal robot that had been rejected in favor of Lunokhod 1 that would fit perfectly into a drone body, and I'd really like to have a body to put it into. Oh, and my wife would like to get it fully assembled and out of the way...

ajay #194: As a colleague said to me when we were discussing this 'Why don't people like you and me think of things like this?' My reply was 'We're cursed with honesty.'

Jesse Helms has died.

Bruce E Durocher II @ 206... One of the earliest issues of Cinéfantastique was a special about Silent Running. I don't remember if it showed blueprints, or anything with specific dimensions, but there was at least one photo of Huey (or was it Dewey? Or Louie?) with part of the front section removed so that you could see the face of the kid inside. That might give you a good idea of the scale, if you keep in mind that the kids had no legs.

Mary Aileen @ 202...

Thomson: [calling for a vote] Where's Rhode Island?
McNair: Rhode Island's out visiting the necessary.
Hancock: Well, after what Rhode Island has consumed, I can't say I'm surprised. We'll come back to him, Mr. Thompson.
Thomson: Rhode Island passes.

Paul A @ 204... So, as with James Bond, they've been making up stories about Miss Marple. Hmm... That would explain the following exchange in 2006's Casino Royale.

James Bond: I always thought M was a randomly assigned initial, I had no idea it stood for...
M: Utter one more syllable and I'll have you killed.

#208
Does that mean the Civil War is finally over?

Fragano 208: Damn, my apartment is a mess, and I promised to have a party on that occasion!

Bozo the Clown, Democrat, died too.

213: You've got time to tidy up and have the party in a couple of days - it's not like he's going to rise from the grave. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha.

Ha.

...Actually, could someone just go and check?

P J Evans # 212: Alas, no.

Xopher #213: Clean up, man, and send out the invitations!

ajay 215: I'd be willing to take a 2-hour shift in the traditional three-day Dance On His Grave 'Til We're Sure That He's Dead.

My parents are coming up for a visit, and we might go to my partner's hometown for the fireworks, but I'd rather sit out in front of the house and see what the neighbors fire off.

In the department of Not Speaking Ill of them as have died: Bless his heart.
(Said with a southern accent, to get the full effect, including the (uncomplimentary) meaning.)

He won't be having beer and BBQ with Adams and Jefferson. He's more likely to be having warm Coke and burnt (and also undercooked) grits, where he's going.

I suspect that when his heart is weighed, it will not balance the feather very well. Ma'at he didn't have.

Nancy C Mittens @ 218... see what the neighbors fire off

Serge:

I have that issue. There's an actual measured dimension that helps in the article: drones 1 and 3 have two-inch deep bottom pans. If you take an opaque projector and the pictures in that issue and in the photo spread in Esquire when the film came out you can adjust the projected image to get the measurements correct. (This is why I want an opaque projector, which my wife, the artist who uses Photoshop daily, never quite gets.) The problem is that there aren't really any nice close shots of the fittings used on the body (and now that Boeing Surplus is closed I can't search through the bins) or the arm that Trumbull's father built for them--it would make life much easier if I could just arrange access to one of the suits with a ruler and 35mm camera in tow...

@219: Circle 8, Bolgia 9?

Jean Hickson converted me to Miss Marple. I've never been able to read Christie, but those Hickson BBC Marples are wonderful in every way, radiating from Hickson's center of gravity -- while she doesn't play Marple with gravity, so to speak. They're period perfect.

I don't believe I've seen a Rutherford Marple.

I've just lately begun to look at Poirots, since there are no more Marples for me to see.

Love, C.

#212 ::: P J Evans

Been over for decades. The South won.

Just look around.

Love, C.

I shall remember Jesse Helms in the words of Roy Zimmerman and the Foremen: That Jesse Helms Song (MP3 snippet, 40 seconds)

(full lyrics)

Few times have I been more proud of a MN politician than when Paul Wellstone told an interviewer right after his first Senate win that Helms "represents everything to me that is ugly and wrong and awful about politics."

The day is a bit brighter than it was.

From PNH's Sidelights: Jesse Helms dies, hopefully in misery and pain

That momentary chill you are feeling, that brief whiff of stale and musty air, is the restless shade of Terry Carr, haunting you for abusing "hopefully."

Hear Ye, Hear Ye:

By the powers invested in me (OK, I invested myself, but that's my prerogative) I hereby decree that absolution has been given (in advance and in perpetuity) to all those who defy de mortuis nil nisi bonum in the case of Jesse Helms.

Feel free, in other words. Don't hold back out of misguided superstition.

Nice line in the Balloon Juice comments about Helms:

I can only hope there’s some sort of affirmative action program in Heaven, and he loses his spot there because they had to give it to a minority.

A Win.

Does this mean that Madeline A. gets to reclaim her "Somebody in the State Department Loves Me" shirt from the estate? Because she did more sucking up to Helms to get his block of UN funds out of the way than the sucking up Johnson had Humphrey do to Fulbright to limit cloture to get the 1964 Civil Rights Act passed--which I hadn't thought possible.

(I'm not a Johnson fan, but I do have to give him credit as ex-Senate leader for figuring out Fulbright was the key to limiting cloture and that Humphrey could work with the old bigot--which Johnson couldn't after Fulbright decided Johnson was a traitor to the South over the 1957 Civil Rights Bill. I still don't understand how Humphrey pulled it off...)

re Jesse Helms: Happy Independence Day.

I really ought not be so chipper, but you know... I can't feel any sorrow. Like Xopher, I can't help but think the world is better off for his absence.

Serge, #198, a delayed green is when the stoplight on one direction of a street turns green after the other stoplight does. The reasoning for the sign is that people who see the folks coming toward them will get upset that their light isn't green, decide it's broken, and go anyway. Locally, we don't have signs, but in the places where we have delayed greens, they're to give pedestrians a headstart.

I'm going to be looking at tomorrow's crop of political cartoons with extreme interest. I want to see how many of them feature Helms being "sent downstairs" by a big black God.

I'm also pleased that he lived long enough to see two states legalize same-sex marriage. It must have eaten him alive to realize that he could no longer hold back the tide of change.

Re the churches of Kizhi: we have one just like that a short ways up the road from us. Drove the building inspectors crazy when they were putting it up.

TCM is playing the unredacted 1776

Will be eating bratwurst, cheese, bread, beer, and waching same.

Diatryma @85: The two pieces I most looked forward to seeing again at the Denver Art Museum were "The Warning Shadow," an American genre painting of a hunter seeing a shadow that alerts him to a mountain lion -- it's a moment when they're both aware of each other, and neither has done anything yet. It may have been painted as a magazine illustration; I don't know the artist's name. The other is "Dream of Arcadia" by Thomas Cole, a large canvas of a pagan scene that I just wanted to step into.

Going to that museum and seeing all the rows of Buddha heads and hands made me think of generations of pith-helmeted Europeans and Americans, dashing off of boats and rushing to prize pieces off of all the native deities. And perhaps a class of native artisans who specialized in replacing such pieces after the boats left.

There were a lot of other things I liked, of course. An elaborate dollhouse. Painted wooden crucifix. Racing a friend up the stairs, laughing and gasping and nearly losing my equilibrium (and breakfast) at the top.

Morning of the 4th of July, this morning, I heard the familiar voices at NPR read The Declaration of Independence. Good patriotic moment.

Evening of the 4th of July -- right now -- I'm listening to NPR, Scott McClellan, about how the Bush administration told lies to get us to go to war with Iraq and when it was done, could not acknowledge the mistakes that are keeping us there. F**k.

Have I said recently how much I despise these guys?

I remember "Dream of Arcadia"! I don't think the other made enough of an impression on me if I saw it. We three conference truants were more or less wandering around, occasionally laughing and calling the others over to see or share a bit of weird knowledge.

Did you see the map made of words? That one held us still for a while.

ajay @ 194: Brilliant.

Lee @ 234: "I'm going to be looking at tomorrow's crop of political cartoons with extreme interest. I want to see how many of them feature Helms being "sent downstairs" by a big black God."

I think I'd prefer a shocked Helms standing before an enthroned, decidedly Middle-Eastern/North-African-looking Jesus, who is arching an eyebrow at him. The caption: "Didn't see this coming, did you?"

Tery Karney @ 236...

"I am obnoxious and disliked."

Marilee @ 233... they're to give pedestrians a headstart

They must be an East Coast thing because I don't remember seeing such a sign during the 12 years I lived in California.

My most amusing memory of NY City in 1982... Coming to an intersection, and seeing the whole bunch of pedestrians crossing even though they didn't have the right of way.

Tonight, on the SciFi Channel... Ginger Snaps Back: the Beginning

Remind me to say something nice to our Ginger.

Serge @243: Too late!!!

Oops. I didn't mean to say that out loud.

I'm just trying to help my son with his math homework, and golly gee whiz, you'd think it was the end of the world as we know it.

#228: I suppose Jesse Helms might have died in a hopeful manner in the midst of his misery and pain. I guess it would be evil for me to think that he didn't even have that going for him.

As a 0th generation gay Chinese-American (I moved to the US when I was 6), I wasn't his prime target. However, I got enough splash effect to make me amazed at the sheer dignity how those who got the full force of his his hate comported themselves.

Hmm... must avoid the news media for the next few days. I don't think I can bear the hagiography which inevitably follows the death of political figures this time.

Paul A @ #204, I haven't seen the series, but feel compelled to point out that Christie herself, when producing theatrical and novel versions of the same story, would change the plot to avoid people going in knowing the ending.

P.J. Evans @ #212: no. "The past isn't dead. It isn't even past." --Faulkner

Linkmeister @ #229: I refrain not out of "misguided superstition" nor out of regard for Helms but because I think it's cheap to kick people who can't kick back. Also, the man had family.

As was my wont, I put in a little time deciphering (for the nth straight year) the Declaration of Independence in original copperplate on a back section page of the NYT. This year, for some weird reason, I started reading it from the perspective of an Iraqi. Boy, have we blown it. Not my best Independence Day.

There's a teaser trailer up for The Day The Earth Stood Still, the remake with Keanu Reeves.

http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/day-the-earth-stood-still/teaser-trailer

Teaser trailer

My first reaction: Reeves is no Michael Rennie, but that's hardly a surprise. Still, I'm curious.

Ginger @ 244... I'm just trying to help my son with his math homework, and golly gee whiz, you'd think it was the end of the world as we know it

You mean that it's not the end of the world as we know it?

Fragano Ledgister @ #216 :

"Xopher #213: Clean up [your lodgings], man, and send out the invitations!"

No, no -- as Karen Anderson once put it, mock-incredulously, "You mean ... you clean house _before_ hosting a FanParty?"

We need to get our perspective & priorities straight, here.

It's the end of the world, Serge, but not as we know it!

Serge: That might be because a pedestrian taking such a headstart in calif., would be guilty of jaywalkng. Delayed green is also (at least in my neck of the woods) pretty much the default.

Having now seen the full version of 1776, I know why Nixon didn't like that song.

*delurks again to say:*

I haven't seen mention of this yet (I did a quick search to check), and I think it would be of interest to many of you here in the fluorosphere.

LJ users of many fandoms have banded together to create a charity auction in support of Marriage Equality, and inspired by George Takei and his lovely fiancé. Live Long and Marry!

From the userinfo: "The auction will raise money for the fight against the California initiative which will legally destroy existing same-sex marriages and ban any further ones. If the initiative passes, it will write discrimination into the state constitution, annul existing marriages, and make Mr. Sulu cry."

Up for auction are a wide variety of items and services -- from specialized fiction critiques, to hand knit items, to care packages from all over the world (including Iceland and Estonia), to made-to-order fan or original fiction, art, baked goods, and much more. Oh, and let's not forget the ironic offers of books autographed by Orson Scott Card and Anita Bryant.

The auction is still open to new offers if you get inspired. Bidding closes at 12:01am PST on July 15th.

abi: I drove my parents and the Dude down to Novato to see their annual parade. My niece, six years old, was a banner carrier for her school. This parade is quite a nice one, especially as there is a WWII museum dedicated to working vehicles from that war (both sides in the European theater) and they intersperse the vehicles in between the other groups. Jeeps, yes. Big people movers, yes.

Tanks. Great big tanks. The Dude didn't much care for the backfiring engines, but they were still pretty cool.

Other groups of note: The Pini Hardware Plunger Brigade, the Nave Patrola (comedy marching), Basset Rescue, an electric guitar brigade playing "Smoke On the Water"... fun stuff. Very much a family-friendly parade (not too long, lots of candy and other kid-oriented handouts.)

Then we went to my sister's for a barbecue and everybody was lovin' the Dude (well, my three-year-old nephew was unimpressed.)

Then we drove home and after dark went to my parents to set off the tiny little thing of fireworks I bought last year before finding out that my apartment complex doesn't let you set them off. Sheesh. You'd think it would be smarter to rope off part of the back parking lot (where nobody parks) and let all the residents set them off there.

I know it's high fire danger, but there's acres of concrete available for use and "safe and sane" fireworks don't travel.*

Incidentally, Evil Rob— who once got his pyrotechnicist's license for stage work— is plotting about next year, when the Dude will be old enough to appreciate the fireworks. Ought to be interesting.

*Yes, people can injure themselves with "safe and sane" fireworks. They just have to ignore all sensible safety precautions, such as "light fuse and step away."

Serge 242: I'm not entirely sure about NY, but in NJ pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way. 'Crosswalk' is broadly defined (as in, it applies to a swath going from the line of the building to the curb, and continuing right across the street), crosswalks needn't be marked, and there's no such thing as jaywalking. The difference between a pedestrian being in the "crosswalk" and not is that drivers are required to stop and allow a pedestrian in the crosswalk to cross the street. That's even if the intersection is controlled by a light.

In fact the ONLY thing the New Jersey motor vehicle code requires of pedestrians is not to "jump out in front of a vehicle in such a way that it is impossible for the driver to stop in time." Note: that word is 'impossible', not 'inconvenient', 'annoying', or even 'scary'.

Traffic lights control cars (and all motor vehicles and to some extent bicycles). Walk/Don't Walk signs are advice, and have no legal force AFAICT (IANAL). So if you have the green, and I'm in the crosswalk, technically you're required to let me cross "against" the light.

This is the law (as I read it, keeping in mind that IANALATINLA), not the common practice, of course. Most drivers appear to assume that the law is "pedestrians better get outta my way." But then they also seem to think stop signs mean "slow down to the point where you can blame it on the other guy if you hit someone."

The best 4th of July display in my memory was the time we were camped at a FoF's place on the east shore of Marrowstone Island and could see all the fireworks from Bellingham to Tumwater (on the evening of a day when we'd been able to see the Cascades from Baker to Hood). 1980, fewer cars, air that didn't turn brown and crispy on a hot July afternoon. Last night there was a constant barrage of aerial displays- big ones funded by Homeowners Associations and little ones funded by birthday money and allowances. They went on and on past the point of sensory overload, and the smoke lingered until the tide started running in and broke up the inversion layer.

Serge @243, I broke down and asked my friends list if it was worth watching "Ginger Snaps Back" et'c et'c and the primary Hugh Dillon fan on my friends list made a reply which included the information that she'd only seen it once even though she owns it.

On the other hand: Canadian pioneer werewolves!

Doctor Who

There's plenty of good bits in the season finale.

The actual ending has the feel of a good story, but it seems tacked on, even rushed. And it's a cop-out.

I'm not sure I'd call the thing a Mary Sue, but almost everything which happens is what a Mary Sue would be blamed for.

For the first patriotic holiday in the 11 years I've been here, there were only a few late-night bangs, and no spent fireworks under my car in the morning. Yay!

(I like fireworks--under controlled conditions and at reasonable hours.)

I actually got to watch the local fireworks display from my front door. My house is serendipitously placed; the fireworks set off at the (I think) Richmond waterfront (that's Richmond, CA) are precisely in line with the viewing angle from the front door of my home. Last night I opened the door, (it was a mild night) put a chair in the doorway, and drank a Sierra Nevada Summerfest ale. (That's my tradition.) Next door, my neighbors were doing the same thing from their driveway, minus the ale. It was fun.

#258: So, it's a Mary Who?

JESR @ 257... Canadian pioneer werewolves!

Do they like maple syrup? No matter what, it sounds like I should pass, even though there's someone called Ginger in it.

They're apologizing for the ending.

Xohper @ 255... I don't care if it's the law that cars shall not run over pedestrians. It sounds like suicide to assume that drivers will always be vigilant.

and, while I'm commenting, let this be a link from my previous address to an email address better suited to publication.

The Guardian has a polite and devastatingly precise obituary of Helms: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/04/usa

geekosaur, #263: Now if only the producers of Bones could be brought to do the same! (Bitter? Who, me?)

Serge, #264: Yes, exactly. Especially where cellphones are involved.

The sense I have is that the last ten minutes of the Doctor Who finale could have been a whole story.

A lot of the main plot was a gaudy mess.

OK, so is there any fannish reason why we can't hear such a thing as a ukulele mariachi band?

Are any of the Reno in 2011 concom regular Fluorosphores?

Also, I propose a new term for trolls on Making Light: Quencher, or Collisional Quencher.

A quencher absorbs light and prevents fluorescence, turning light into heat. When the quencher is removed from the normally fluorescent, fluorescence is returned. A quencher quenches, removing light. A quencher perturbs.

The fluorosphere can experience a decrease in fluorescence upon collision with collisional quenchers.

Used in a sentence
"This thread has become heated and angry, and $Username has posted the same text to 5 different blogs: I think we've been quenched."

My wife Josie (whom some of you met on Sunday) made the Chronicle today.

Xopher: Way back when I had occaison to look up the relevant laws in Calif. (the LASFS is mid-block, across the street from a liquor store/small grocery).

The rules here are.

Pedestrians have the right of way at all times.
All corners are crosswalks

Traffic Controls (defined as a light) control ALL traffic.

Pedestrians may assert their rights of way at crosswalks (so long as they don't violate a Traffic Control Signal)

Crossing a street which has Traffic Controls at both intersections is Jaywalking.

If there is not a oontrol at BOTH ends of a street, a pedestrian; so long as they do not interfere with the flow of traffic may cross at anyplace they like. If they do interfere with the flow of traffic, they are guilty of jaywalking.

The most obnoxious enforcement example of this I know of was the cop who set up across from Arcadia High School. The street there is 1/2 mile between intersections, both of which have lights. After he started writing up the first kids, others crossed to see what was going on.

Sola (who was, along with her boyfriend, one of those caught because of curiosity) said there were about 40 kids at the arraignment.

Terrry, I'm waiting for them to stake out the intersections just north of LA Civic Center, on both sides of the freeway. There are an awful lot of people going to, among other places, the federal courthouse and city hall, who cross the street on red lights, apparently because they can't wait for the signal to change.

They might be able to pay for the police presence from the fines.

annnnnnd
Done with the Hugo novels with two days to spare. A Yiddish cop and her priestly programming pal must learn to navigate a virtual Rio and solve a bank robbery before the aliens take over ... nifty story, that.

Every time I think the media has gotten as dumb as it can get, it surprises me with something even dumber.

Of course, this is Fox News, which I am almost certain is run by children.

P.J. What pisses me off are the lights in Glendale (on Brand). At the big intersections they've installed demand lights for "walk" signals.

They don't, so far as I can tell change the duration of the signal... annoying enough.

But nasty... if you hit the button one side (going N/S, you use the E side of the street) the other side (W) gets a don't walk signal.

The signs show the Vehicle Code about lights and pedestrian travel (enter a crosswalk with a "don't walk" signal and you are jaywalking).

It's a trap, if you see some one hit the botton on the opposite corner you have every reason to expect to be able to legally cross at the same time they do.

Serge @ 249: Well, the world did not end, and his daily page of homework was finally correctly finished. He demonstrated a misunderstanding of places to right of the decimal point -- very consistently wrong -- and finally understood our explanations.

Phew.

So tomorrow's page should be even more fun.

I started counting Don't Walk flashes a while back and realized that, in Iowa City at least, there's a pattern. Most will flash eight, fifteen/sixteen, or in one case twenty-four times (there's one twelve that I know of). If you know how many times it flashes, you have a better idea of when it's safe to cross-- it stops flashing when the light turns yellow.

There's one crosswalk that has an on-demand walk signal that basically... as long as the light has been green at least twelve seconds or so, you hit the button, the light turns yellow right that instant. Other than that one, I think they're mostly to give pedestrians something to do.

LA is starting to install crosswalk signals with a countdown timer. It's fairly clear to long-time residents that you're not supposed to start crossing after it gets to zero, but people from places without this kind of signal may be confused. (Best confused person I've seen: standing at the corner nearest my place, watching the walk signal until it started flashing red, then crossing the street.)

Serge, #242, California has pedestrians?

Shay, #253, I'd looked when it first started and today have not only bid, but offered a custom necklace. I'm out of my mind.

Wesley, #275, wow, that's hard to believe.

Terry, #276, we mostly have demand walk signals in Old Town and they make all the lights red. Probably not long enough for me to cross, but for most people.

What got me was Boston. The pattern (and appallingly consistent, to the point I modified my driving) was for pedestrians to wait until the light turned red to enter the intersection.

I still can't fathom why.

I forgot this earlier. There's a Texas GOP delegate who came to DC and was shocked, I say, shocked, by all the nudity. In the art. He tried to make nude statues illegal as a plank in the platform, but did not succeed. He said: "You don't have nude art on your front porch," and I think we should help him out there.

Terry #281: Brown University students do that exact same thing. I do my best to run them over.

Marilee @ #282, I've been waiting for the nudes ban attempt to show up on "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me," since co-author of that squib Roxanne Roberts is a frequent contestant on the show.

Dave Bell@258: So in other words (I haven't seen the finale yet) it's on a par with all three of the previous series finales?

I'd say that Russell T. Davies is excellent at setup, less so at resolution. With luck Steven Moffat will be better.

Dave Bell @258: You're more charitable than I am. I greatly enjoyed the episode, but the resolution of one plotline well and truly had me thinking "EG Qnivrf, jr nyernql xabj nobhg lbhe Znel Fhr snagnfvrf, lbh qba'g arrq gb fcryy gurz bhg va *gung* zhpu qrgnvy."

Marilee @ 280... California has pedestrians?

I don't know about Ellay, but, I'd say yes, considering how crowded the BART trains could be. And there were times, when we'd get out of the trains and onto San Francisco's Market Street, where I'd think of the opening scenes from North by Northwest, except that I never bumped into Cary Grant or Alfred Hitchcock. I did once come across Newt Gingrich.

Linkmeister @ 284... I've been waiting for the nudes ban

And what of the nudes tan?

Well, I'm trying to avoid spoilers, but even the Daleks get a Mary Sue moment.

And I want to see a certain Radio Times cover personality performing "Anarchy in the UK" for Children in Need

Dave Bell @ 269... a ukulele mariachi band?

That reminds me of the ST-TNG episode where Q had been stripped of his powers. By the end, upon his regaining them, he was so happy that he conjured up a mariachi band on the bridge of the NCC-1701-D.

Lee @ 267... Notice how old-time SF, upon describing the wonders of the Future, seemed to assume that people's intelligence would grow to match the increasing complexity of technology? When it didn't make that assumption, the story usually turned out to be a satire of our Present.

I'm currently in the second chapter of Bertrand Russell's The Conquest of Happiness, and obsessive that I am, I can't help noticing how this book leaves tracks through Heinlein. From Hamilton Felix to Jubal Harshaw, I'm seeing Russell's words, lightly polished, parts numbers not particularly obscured. I don't know Russell well; is this book the path through Russell for Heinlein? Or another?

Random open thread note: After looking over some older ML threads, I saw a reference to "The Seven True Things You Can't Say on Television," a blog post that is moderately hard to find (the site that it originally appeared on doesn't have it anymore; you can find it here.

It struck me that reading this in 2008, many of the comments hold up quite well. In particular, revelations from the last five years make #1 (Bush and company made up the justification for the war for political reasons) look rock solid. #4 is pretty much confirmed by the mishandling of the Katrina disaster. #5 tracks quite well with my memories of the use of the terrorism threat level, though I don't have hard data about how it was used. #6 is transparently true, and has been for a long time.

As an aside, one of the many reasons why we get such misleading and crappy coverage of political issues by the MSM is that they so rarely look back at old news stories and claims, and check to see how they held up. This makes it easy for professional liars to simply come up with a different lie each month, knowing that no reporter or MSM news source will ever bring up the past.

Marilee @ 282

It says he has 14 kids; he should have gotten over that by now. (The Texas GOP party is busy trying to turn the clock back at least as far as the late 19th century; they don't like the modern world. Except when it's convenient: if they ever had to actually deal with the world they're trying to create, they'd be completely lost.)

P J, I think you're right about the late 19th, but I think we can date it more precisely: the Civil War. They think things were better when the darkies all had clear owners.

So I've got a question. OK, I've read about Degler in FanCyclopedia, in Mimosa, in TNH's short piece. But I still don't understand PNH's response back in 2002:

Come now. In a blog universe that contains Gary Farber, Avedon Carol, Vicki Rosenzweig, and Teresa Nielsen Hayden, among others, Cosmic Claude's name shall be forever green.

None of you are old enough to have been active in Fandom when Degler was. Or born yet. He vanished in 1951, with one possible brief reappearance in 1981.

How can his name be yet green in the minds of people who never knew him?

#278 ::: Diatryma

Re: on-demand walk signal...I think they're mostly to give pedestrians something to do.

Like the "Close Doors" buttons in elevators?

Actually, they might have other uses-- tracking pedestrian traffic, for one. Most people, coming up to an intersection, hit the button even if people are already there. That might work as a data collection method.
I've seen intersections in town that didn't show the Walk signal unless someone hit the button-- it just stayed Don't Walk as the light turned green. This seems unnecessary to me.

Where creative juices come from!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgYwTELj-fs

Hilarious!

#298

I think that's because, when someone hits the button at one of those, it actually lengthens the signal. (I've actually gotten out of the car and hit the button at one intersection where the pavement sensor wasn't working and the light wouldn't change. Not exactly what they intended, but it worked.)

PJ Evans, what do you mean? I'm not sure which signal you're talking about.

Ooh, ooh, there's a sequel to the Tuscan Milk cantos! The Odes to the Denon AKDL1 Dedicated Link Cable are out!

Diatryma, the ones where the walk light stays red if no one pushes the buttton. The signal where I had to get out and push the button was one where it usually was green on the main street, unless a car on the cross street triggered the change. (When the sensor on one side of that kind of setup quits working, you can wait a long time.)

Carol @ 297... Like the "Close Doors" buttons in elevators?

Not quite. It does happen that, on my way down and out of the building where I work, my elevator stops on the way down - possibly because someone accidentally pushed the 'down' button instead of 'up'(*). I usually wait 5 seconds, then I push the 'close' button.

(*) How does the Federation deal with that?

"What happened, Odo?"
"He beamed down, but he pushed the 'down' button."
"There's nothing downward other than vacuum."
"I know. You should see the mess where he intersected with that shuttle."

Pedestrian controlled crossings, of various sourts, are all over the UK. Even as part of a light-controlled traffic intersection. The advantage is that when nobody presses a button, the system doesn't have to go through an all-red phase to let pedestrians cross.

And there also should be a back-up timer system in case the vehicle sensors fail. Though the fail-safe option should surely be "vehicle-present"?

I'd like to take the opportunity provided by the Arrow's Theorem sidelight to promote a discussion we had on alternate voting systems back at my blog. Forty-two comments, almost all of them detailed and thoughtful. One of the points that was made there is that Arrow's Theorem assumes that voters only indicate the ordering of their preferences, and not the strength; many of the popular voting systems, such as approval voting, break this assumption.

By the way, I should say that I don't particularly deserve credit (or blame) for that thread; it was started and moderated by my co-blogger Ben Webster.

Fragano@167: I'm confused; you seem to be saying first that the challenger has 3x the money of the incumbent, then that she has Globe ran a couple of stories about a "fundraising" organization that sends out letters asking around the country for money for no-hopers, then takes ~95% of funds raised for "expenses". (Worse, in the most local case they kept sending letters even after the no-hoper had been eliminated; they claim they thought he was running a write-in campaign.) Private enterprise at work!

abi: the paper says Boston had its usual blast; my wife and I don't do crowds of half a million, so it's been a long time since we've gone (and the last time we made use of museum memberships to get restricted seats on a nearby rooftop). Instead we listened / watched as a friend's neighbors set off cannon crackers and small rockets, had indoor-grilled burgers, watched a bit of the pre-fireworks Pops concert (Irish stepdancers accompanying the theme song from a local movie, "Take Me Out to the Ballgame", and the traditional 1812 Overture, with howitzers and maroons but no tower bells I could find), and played a couple of rounds of a silly board game. (We were moving slowly enough that we completely missed the ritual showing of 1776; \someday/ I'll see the first half-hour....)

JESR@256: that's great when it works. There was a San Jose Westercon where the suite patios were placed so we could see SJ downtown, Moffett AFB, Marriott's GA, etc....

Vintage ads from fictional futures. I had not known that UBIK acts twice as fast as aspirin.

(Found via Weekend Stubble.)

Speaking of Ubik, thank you for the "Richard Nixon, all-purpose dystopian president" sidebar link.

Reading that prompted me to track down "The Two Dicks," a short story by Paul McAuley (F&SF, November 2001) that I'd never read before. If you have an appropriate library card, you can read it online here through "Access My Library."

CHip #307: It looked as if she had nearly three times as much money as the incumbent, in fact, she had been given less than than half ($200,000 out of $1.7 million, versus $580,000 in the incumbent's war chest) what the incumbent had by her 'fund-raiser'. Sorry for the confusion.

It's a pretty savvy scam. As a colleague of mine said, 'Why didn't it occur to people like you or me. My response was 'We're cursed with a basic honesty.'

Classified documents are being released that indicate that the South Korean government during the Korean War executed up to 100,000 political prisoners without trial, and that the US knew about it and in some cases approved of it ahead of time.

news story.

We spent the evening of July 4 having dinner and conversation with old friends who've just come back from a 6 month trip to Ecuador and Venezuela. One of them is probably the last tenured Marxist professor of economics in the US, and the other is an anthropologist; we had a lovely evening catching up with each other, hearing of their encounters with the Ecuadorian Secret Police, and getting to talk again with people who fundamentally agree with us on what's wrong with the way the world is run. We didn't need a fireworks show; the families on their block kept the explosions going until almost midnight.

In other news, it looks like one of the neighborhood cats has sdopted us. It's a young male, who lives next door; but the woman who lived there has left for the summer and rented the house out, and apparently told the renters (and her mother, who comes in to take care of the grounds) that it's an "outside cat". I don't think even the cat believes that one; he drops by every once in a while to get a drink of water and be rubbed behind the ears for an hour or so. It's not like he's been abandoned; they do leave out food for him; but he's taken to crossing some heavily-traveled streets, and was found about half a mile away once. I've managed to trade voicemails with the mother, and she's dead-set on the "outdoor cat" notion, so all we can do is say hello to the cat when he comes around, and hope he's not hit by a car.

Cats change as they get older. Tabitha, local feline mistress, is far more inclined than a year ago to stay in the house and sleep.

Mind you, it's a bit startling when she wakes you up by grooming your moustache.

Dave Bell @ 313... It could be worse. It's hard to sleep in when you have three dogs who decide they're hungry, especially when the 40-pound thing with a big muzzle and a wet tongue decide to lie on your chest.

Marilee @280, I once walked from Hancock Park to Olympic and Hoover (it was enlightening; wish I was up to it these days) and my observation then was that pedestrians in LA are best described as "people who have finally found a parking space."

JESR: It depends a lot on where you are. There are parts of town which are very friendly to pedestrian traffic, and where it exists. Most of it isn't really; because it's suburban, and the distances make some sort of vehicle (be it car or bicycle) pretty much incumbent.

[in passing, like everything these days, it seems]

Interview with Jeff Sharlet. Mostly on the Family, a radical christian group that aims at converting the politically powerful, and has succeeded depressingly often. But check out The Revealer, which is like Media Matters for religion in the media.

Terry Karney, actually, I found walking-as-walking easy in LA; there are sufficient controlled intersections for crossing streets in the areas where I did most of my getting around (downtown, Olympic and Hoover, Melrose and Clinton, Santa Monica), and the long walk was mostly instructive about how other pedestrians behaved: they walked from parking to stores and services, then back to their cars.

LACMA and I guess the Getty are accessible by public transportation, but getting to, say, the Huntington, or Descansos Garden without a car is pretty much impossible, and unless things have changed a lot, the Zoo and Hollywood Bowl are off the RTD map.

I've never had a driver's license, and spent a lot of time in LA a moderately long time ago, dealing with normal life sans car- it's doable, but not as easy as Seattle was at the same time, nor Thurston County now: most of that due to scale rather than density. (I'm biased about LA as a bike town; one of my husband's friends was a bicycle-only LA person, and died in a car-bicycle accident last summer).

Loren posted on the Disch thread and I emailed to find out about him and Lauryn and how they were doing and was happy to find Lauryn has a cool Cafepress shop!

JESR @ 318

The Bowl is easier to get to now than it used to be - they put a subway stop not too far from it, and there are buses that go there especially for performances: I'm having to dodge them when I'm leaving the train station in the evenings. I don't know how many routes actually go there, because it's not a full-time route, and the MTA site isn't really very friendly.
The Getty, either of them, is more difficult. I think there might be a bus on Sepulveda that can get you to the main museum, but I wouldn't want to bet; I've heard there are also shuttles from somewhere on the West LA side of the hill. The one in Pacific Palisades is likely less accessible than that.

You've seen this, right? San Franciscans are trying to get a sewage treatment plant renamed in honour of George W. Bush.

Happy 136th birthday, Tania!!!

Open Thread, so I'll insert here a bit of Squee! and plug a group I've been working with for some time. I know plugging one's own site is generally not a great thing to do, but this just excites me too much to resist.

Our first non-US Socrates Cafe contact!

While it's not yet on the website I link to here (and in my name/profile above), the Socrates Cafe Minnesota webmistress (my wife) just got contacted by a couple in Dubai, U.A.E. that they've been running a Socrates Cafe group there for about 4 months now!

Philosopher.org is the home website for the Society for Philosophical Inquiry (SPI), the "parent organization" for Socrates Cafe. SPI is a global thing, but they unfortunately don't list the available groups directly on their website - you have to e-mail them and/or become a (paid) member. Socrates Cafe is a book written by Christopher Phillips, and is what the group I moderate at the Ridgedale Public Library/Hennepin County Government Building in Minneapolis (Every Thursday evening at 7PM, on the second floor, between the Dunn Bros. and the DMV, in case you want to drop by) is based on.

Our site has links to all the MN-based Socrates Cafe groups we know about and for which the group organizers would permit us to list them, plus a number of out-of-state groups, and perhaps soon the U.A.E. group. We've gone global!

Oh, and just in case you go and notice, yes, the forums (under Amphitheatre, just to be cute) are rather slow/nearly dead. Just in case you needed somewhere else to read/post...

Thanks,
-cajun

Daniel Klein @ 321... Dare I say that it'd sewerve him right?

Serge @324: That's kind of a stinky thing to say -- and you're looking rather flushed -- are you sure you feel ok? All this hot weather might be leaving you a bit drained.

Not that GWB doesn't deserve his very own memorial building.

Ginger @ 325... you're looking rather flushed -- are you sure you feel ok?

That's information few are privvy to.

My brain is flattus this morning. I'm going back to bed so I can digest a bit on this sludge. I know I've been lagoon-ing on composting here, but this spring was pretty floc-ed up for me.

Tania @ 327... this spring was pretty floc-ed up for me

It will pass.

Serge, yeah, but working at the George W. Bush memorial sewage plant? That would stink.

Daniel Klein @ 329... It's a dirty job, but necessary.

Serge #330: Clearly they want to commemorate just how moving his presidency has been.

Fragano @ 331: After all, this president is widely known for his intellectual bran, as well as for his moral fiber.

Serge @ 326: I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be a stool pigeon.

Ginger @ 332... I didn't mean to be a stool pigeon

...who works for the power behind the throne?

Fragano @ 331: And remember, it's not quite over yet! Who knows, maybe he'll go out in a flush of glory.

I wonder...does the Bush administration seem to swirl clockwise in Australia?

Marilee @ #317, I bet you can guess which of her product sections caught my eye...lovely stuff!

I wonder if the readership can help me with a furniture care problem. I bought a couple of deck chairs for my new apartment's balcony. They're made of unvarnished but heavily oiled acacia wood.

Since I live right next to the ocean now, it seems like a good idea to put some sort of sealing finish on them, but I can't figure out what sort of finish would work. I have three contradictory opinions from three different sources, none of which seems trustworthy:

- A clerk at the store where I bought the chairs thought that the factory-applied oil should be sufficient by itself.

- A guy selling beeswax-based furniture polish at the San Diego County Fair assured me that his product would do exactly what I wanted.

- A clerk at an ISO standard hardware store (Ace brand) recommended scrubbing and sanding down the wood to get rid of as much of the oil as possible, then applying primer and spar varnish. (This option seems especially ill-advised.)

Help?

I just got a spam from an outfit looking for a buyer for an Indian pickle and chutney factory.

65,000 pounds plus VAT.

Anyone want to go in with me?

Zack, I'd say stick with the oil for now, but you'll probably have to re-oil it every so often.

I think tung oil is the preferred finish for this sort of thing - my parents had a teakwood dining table with an oiled finish, and it needed to be re-oiled once in a while - but a furniture place would know more than I do.

Open Thread request for assistance:

I got four automatic Windows updates earlier today, clicked to install them, rebooted, and discovered the updates had killed my ZoneAlarm firewall. Every single program I try to access, be it e-mail (and all the links in e-mail) or Firefox, is refused by ZoneAlarm. No opportunity to bypass the alarm is available. Even ZoneAlarm's website is blocked by its own firewall. The only way to get access is to shut down the Zone Alarm firewall and rely on the built-in Windows firewall.

Great. Anyone know a workaround or fix?

"Get a Mac" is not an option.

Skwid, #335, it caught my eye, too! I used to belong to a group that had a squid as an icon.

Zack, #336, stick with the oil. Some woods are better with oil than polishes or varnishes.

Linkmeister, #339, Ack. I have the same updates waiting for installation. Good thing I don't have Zone Alarm. I don't know anything about Zone Alarm, but the best thing I can think of is to uninstall it and then reinstall it (over the new updates).

Marilee @ #340, It's a nice thought, and that's what I did. I downloaded a new Zone Alarm, replacing the old one. Didn't work.

Linkmeister: For now, uninstall Windows XP update KB951748. ZoneAlarm's website has a lot of discussion about how to bypass this-and-that-and-the-other, and they're working on a proper fix.

Zack --

There are drying oils and non-drying oils.

Raw linseed is non-drying; most linseed sold for furniture these days has stuff in it to make it a drying oil.

Walnut oil and tung oil are drying oils.

Anything you are going to sit on, you want a drying oil.

If the furniture is already oiled, you've got an oiled finish unless you want to go the 'disassemble; re-machine one quarter inch smaller in all dimensions' route.

Heavily oiled acacia wood ought to be good for anything short of pouring bleach on it; tung is probably what you will find most easily. Remember to store the closed container upside down so you don't get the top side where you pour from oxidizing and skinning over in the container.

You can -- this is what the original French polish is -- mix bee's wax and non-drying oils. Doing it with a drying oil is dis-recommended. Since you've probably got tung oil on there, don't go with the wax top coat.

Remember to wipe the excess oil with something lint-free.

It's a really quite low-maintenance finish; not quite as tough as modern polyurethanes, but, well, generally tough enough.

Joel @ #342, Thanks! I'll give that a shot.

Where on ZA's site could I find that discussion?

Joel at 342, do you happen to know if this is a bug with other security programs besides Zone Alarm? I use a Trend Micro security program. I haven't downloaded any Windows updates recently...

My parents had a Danish teakwood dining table. It got re-oiled after my father lightly-sanded the top to reduce the dings (dropped stuff does that to wood). I don't know if there were other times, but they had the table for twenty or so years.

Joel, I found the ZA thread at their forum, here.

Thanks, it worked like a charm.

Lizzy L @ #345, I'd go look at Trend Micro's forum, if any. The patch was Windows-wide, so if it's going to be a problem for your system, I'd imagine it would have created an outcry there.

Same darned thing just happened to me, too: ZoneAlarm, WindowsXP automatic update, suddenly nothing worked.

I'm cruising with built-in Windows firewall right now.

Graydon @ 343: what happens if you mix beeswax with a drying oil?

Glad to help. I saw a warning about that update on rec.arts.sf.fandom after I'd told my machine to download the latest set of updates, but (luckily!) before I told it to install them.

On a related note, the new AVG antivirus version 8.0 appears to have an interesting new ability: it can activate a modem to do its scheduled updates even if the Windows settings have auto-dialing disabled. It may be unable to negotiate the password, etc., with the machine at the other end; I infer this from multiple failed attempts to complete the connection. There's a setting in the AVG configuration which enables this use of modems, turned on by default.

I was not happy to be awakened on Saturday morning by the sound of the modem dialing, without my having told it to do so. That's my cue to lurch to my office and yank the modem cable out of the wall.

http://bunsen-h.livejournal.com/16889.html

The fix to the ZoneAlarm problem:

Go to Add/Remove Programs (in Control Panel).
Make sure "Show Updates" is checked.
Remove update KB951748
Reboot.

One of the things that Security Update KB951748 apparently does is inform Microsoft every time you start MS Word, even if you've told your firewall not to allow MS Word to access the internet.

Thanks, Linkmeister. I went to the TM website & found nothing on it about Windows updates, so either they're ignoring it or it isn't a problem.

Ah. This must be some strange new usage of the word "security" that I hadn't previously been aware of.

Dare I ask what Security Update KB951748 does if it can't contact the mothership? Say, if one is off-line, or if Small'n'Limp's server is down?

Joel @#354, when you hear a small whimper emanating from the CPU...

The overview of what KB951748 does, from Microsoft:

A security issue has been identified that could allow a remote attacker to misrepresent a system action or behavior unbeknownst to users on Microsoft Windows systems. You can help protect your computer by installing this update from Microsoft. After you install this item, you may have to restart your computer.

By the sounds of it, you can fix the problem by reinstalling Zone Alarm. It sounds as though Zone Alarm makes its own copy of several core windows DLL files, and when MS release a patch that changes those files it gets screwed up. Uninstall Zone Alarm, install the update, then reinstall Zone Alarm should make it work fine.

ZoneAlarm is hardly an obscure program.

Either Microsoft's testing is so incredibly slipshod that they didn't know about this problem, or they're so uncaringly stupid that they thought somebody, whose firewall they'd buggered, could look up the answer in the internet.

Neither is a good advert for Microsoft.

Today's post on Tania's blog reveals that Ronald McDonald supports the Gay Agenda.

#337: You might want to consult Bill Higgins.

#359: May I suggest that a link specifically to “today's post on Tania's blog” will remain useful longer?

Thanks for the warning - I got the Microsoft Windows XP update today in my "There are updates ready for you" notification. I unchecked the box for KB1whatsis.

The stupid Windows update problem (which may or may not affect me - I did the shutdown to install it as I left for work, so I don't know yet) is well-timed from my point of view, because I'm roundly cursing the Mac I use at work, and it is a sharp reminder that all the OSes do stupid things, and Windows more than most. Just because a Mac is driving me crazy, that doesn't make Windows better.

Kevin Reid @ 361... I blame coffee, or rather the lack of it.

Joel...wait...you have a modem plugged in?

Gods, man, why?

More Open-Threadedness: I finished Jhegaala this morning, and it was delicious, but I noticed a typo/copyedit error. I know it's been mentioned before, here, but I can't recall who at Tor I'm supposed to send those to...

Sqwid, I have a dialup modem and DSL. Because DSL can go down (the phone company owns the lines), and then how do you get your ML fix?

But the dialup modem had better not try calling out on its own ....

Jules @ 357: By the sounds of it, you can fix the problem by reinstalling Zone Alarm.

From what Linkmeister says, that seems not to be the case. I'd be rather surprised if the installation management system didn't keep track of software versions, and would ignore a later attempt to re-install an earlier-version file. Assuming backward compatibility, one would always want to have the most recent file version.

Skwid @ 365: Joel...wait...you have a modem plugged in?

Gods, man, why?

Well, it doesn't work if it isn't plugged in. Leaving it plugged in shouldn't be a problem unless something activates the modem inappropriately.

Or was that "why a modem"? Well, see, a number of months ago I decided that I was overdue to upgrade to a higher-speed connection, which would also not tie up my phone line. Ideally, it would just be a matter of upgrading the service from my current provider, so I wouldn't have to go through the hassle of changing addresses, moving my website, etc. Unfortunately, the published terms of service for my current connection specify that the service includes hosting my webspace, and the published terms of service for the higher-speed connections don't mention it. And I have spent hours and hours trying to get someone from Sympatico to send me some kind of official document (or link to same) which specifies that the higher-speed service includes the site hosting. A couple of their North American droids -- when I managed to talk with someone in North America -- told me that they were pretty sure that the higher-speed service included the site hosting, but they were honest enough to admit that they couldn't find an official document. I've had about eight of their droids in India (judging from the names and accents) assure me that the hosting was included, but despite my requests for documentation of that -- phrased as clearly as possible, in as many ways as I've been able to think of -- they haven't sent documentation, and I'm unwilling to accept the mere word of a semi-illiterate flunky with no authority. (Maybe in Hindi or something, he's a lit major and poet. This is not relevant to my getting useful information in English.) I've been pointed to non-existent web pages, and to web pages that don't actually say anything about terms of service, and to the general Sympatico help system. I've been told that "this email is a document".

And this nonsense hasn't been quite enough to push me to the hassle of finding another ISP. But it has come pretty close.

Serge @ 359 & Kevin Reid @ 361: Tania's blog isn't especially useful for very long. Or very interesting unless you like pictures of moose wandering through my back yard.

Anyway, I was surprised to learn that there's such a thing as a Gay Chamber of Commerce*, and pleasantly surprised to find out that McD has a seat on it.

*my "friends" have been known to pronounce my last name as "Clue-less", ok?

Tania @ 368... Who said that pictures of a moose in one's backyard aren't interesting, especially when the backyard is in the North Pole?

As for Ronald McDonald, good for him.

If your 'friends' pronounce your family name 'Cluless', I'd hate to hear what your ennemies do to your name.

Jules, see my #341. After the update was installed and the problem occurred, I downloaded and installed a new version of ZoneAlarm. It still didn't work. ZA knows about the problem and will probably have to issue a patch of its own.

Serge, since you asked about the "enemy" I will share. Cluck-ass. Yeah, that wasn't really funny when I was a kid. Do you get much Male-lowcks/Male-lox attempts on your name?

Tania @ 371... 'Cluck-ass'? Ouch. It makes the 'Mallet' of my youth seem not so bad after all.

Graydon @342 talks about wood finishes. In my furniture building phases, I've found that Citrus Shield, which is carnauba and orange oil, is wonderful stuff for flat surfaces; I've used it on pine and alder and red oak and cedar, and especially like to tint it with standard pigment or oil paints for effect. There's a pine shelf behind me that was done with four layers of that stuff colored with American Vermillion that's hard and dust-proof ten years on. The alder table in my bedroom is even older, and has a finish that's layers of ultramarine and viridian.

It will make a firm bond with an oil treated surface; I've got a quarter-sawn white oak table top that needs refinished again after an unfortunate incident with acrylic lacquer and bad reflexes, and am going the carnauba route this time because part of the table top has a tung oil finish but the leaf is unfinished. (Cheap antiques with flood water damage, what can I say?)

Fux "News" quacking-doctoring images of detractors....

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080708.fox09/BNStory/International/home

...Mr. Steinberg's boss, Steven Reddicliffe, was a former employee of the Fox media empire and reportedly had “an axe to grind” with the company.

...Fox ran modified pictures of both men. Mr. Steinberg's teeth had been yellowed, his nose and chin made more bulbous, and his ears jugged. Mr. Reddicliffe was given black bags under his eyes....

Another crypto remark in passing: ccrypt is a pretty good general crypto program

After installing KB951748, my laptop wireless connection accesses servers, but won't transmit or receive information. According to the ZoneAlarm thread, I'm not the only one with this problem.

The ZoneAlarm thread also recommends that you uninstall update KB951978.

Me, I'm doing a system restore of last night.

I'm looking forward to seeing The Dark Knight.

It struck me that a villain could pull an epic sadistic stunt by sneaking into the movie theater, scurrying up to the projection room, and substituting a reel of a certain 1966 movie for the Christian Bale film. Imagine the audience seeing this pop up:

Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da

albatross @ 181: Has anyone else followed the news lately? It appears that our torture techniques were actually derived, probably unintentionally, from Chinese torture techniques used to elicit false confessions from American captives in Korea.

Deliberately, as later documented. Now if only we could have learned this from China instead:

A Chinese court has jailed a former anti-graft prosecutor for life for torturing a suspect to death, while his superior was sentenced to seven years in prison for trying to cover up the case....

Steve #378: If that were to happen when I go to see it, I would* probably revise my expectations, stay in the theater, enjoy the hell out of it, and then go back later to see the new movie for real.

*Dear god this sentence is a horrific mash of verb tenses. I don't know what I'm doing.

Out in the Open Thread:

Assorted photos of varied quality of large roses.

There are other photos of roses from this year in other posts in my journal.

JESR: getting to, say, the Huntington, or Descansos Garden without a car is pretty much impossible, and unless things have changed a lot, the Zoo and Hollywood Bowl are off the RTD map.

The Gold Line will get you to within a mile and a half of the Huntington (I used to walk there from my house, unawares it was a 6 mile trip; but I like to walk). For decades the RTD (now the MTA) has had busses which go to the Bowl. You have to get to one of the hubs they depart from, but it's on the map. I don't know about the Zoo.

P.J. Evans. The Getty are both pretty easy. The Malibu Getty (what I think of at, The Getty) has a bus from Ocean and Santa Monica, and there is one to the train from the parking lot which runs around Westwood. Both of those areas are something of a pain to Mass Trans to, but the endpoint is doable.

James @ 351: One of the things that Security Update KB951748 apparently does is inform Microsoft every time you start MS Word

What's the source of this information? I've been looking around, and can't find it.

Joel @ #383, Yeah. I posted the overview above @ #356 in part because I didn't see anything in the MS bulletin that approached what James said.

Oh, and the "Alternative rugby commentary." sideparticle thingy. I just keep watching it over and over. It's some weird form of masochism going on, cause it feels like getting verbally kicked around by the guy talking. But I like it.

Pyre@379, woah, that's some link

A Chinese court has jailed a former anti-graft prosecutor for life for torturing a suspect to death, while his superior was sentenced to seven years in prison for trying to cover up the case. Another two law enforcement officials involved in the torture were sentenced to 15 and 10 years in jail respectively, the newspaper said.

Are we seriously getting our asses kicked by the Chinese in who has better human rights around not torturing people?

Not to be cynical about it, but I wonder how much of this reflects an internal state change, and how much of it is PR for the olympics.

No, that was cynical.

gads, I'm depressed by the whole thing.

Greg London @ 386: Are we seriously getting our asses kicked by the Chinese in who has better human rights around not torturing people?

Well... best ask the Tibetans, and whoever survived Tiananmen Square. On the other hand, the Uighurs might declare it a tie.

Thank you, everyone who posted about the Windows update --> ZoneAlarm problem. I'm a Mac user, so I just vaguely registered it and passed it by, but my roommate is a Windows user (at least when she's not borrowing my Macbook), and tonight her Internet connection stopped working. I was able to come back to the Open Thread and find the necessary info in almost no time, and it looks like her connection is restored and her sanity saved.

Watch out for Windows Automatic Updates

If your dream has been to own a factory that makes sauces, relishes, pickles, and/or chutney, I have good news for you.

(I overlooked #337 and #360 before posting #390!)

"The Avenging Unicorn"

On ZoneAlarm.

An updated version is avialable fomr the Zonelabs site.

So far, two download attempts have failed to produce a usable copy.

What is the current climate bringing us to? I spent the 4th watching fireworks and reading the Bill of Rights to my kid, who was then put to bed with a selection of Bible stories. (Us? Not Christian. Ok, it was coincidence, and she's just as likely to ask for her Greek Myths or Hindu Gods books, but it still - I felt like I'd fallen through into some 50's fantasy alt-world.)

Now she asks for the Bill of Rights every day when I get home from work, and I think we might start on the Constitution too - at least she thinks we should, and I can't really come up with a reason not to. It's been instructive. (And for anyone else with small children (or who needs to win bar bets), I heartily recommend The Constitution Translated for Kids by Cathy Travis. I actually need a second copy now, since the kid seems to think that "for kids" means she gets to keep it, but it's a perfect size for tossing in a bag and carrying everywhere with you - you never know when you'll need to prove that "America shall be a Christian Nation, founded on the teachings of Our Lord Jesus Christ" isn't actually in the text anywhere.)

Cat Meaders @ 394...

Your kid might like to see something that Tania posted on her own blog on the Fourth. It's a YouTube of
Muppets sort-of singing "Stars & Stripes" while Sam the Eagle interprets the Constitution as designed to protect the Nation from weirdos.

(I just swung over here from another thread where a bunch of the usuals are working with a new poster)

Reason #10782 why ML is Like Callahan's.

Do you know what I love about you guys? That you have the patience, empathy and fierce desire to nurture the kindred souls who stumble in here. In the spirit of paying it forward you take the time to help them shed their bad intellectual and emotional habits they've built as defenses through years of dealing with the willfully, blissfully ignorant who don't like "smart people".

I just wanted to tell you that it takes a special kind of wonderful to do that, and you should take a moment today to acknowledge that truth and accept that you have "some wonderful goin' on."

That is all, carry on.

This isn't on any possible topic, but I'm enjoying it so very much that I want to share:

Anyone with even a slightly passing interest in soul music who hasn't heard Al Green's The Belle Album (from 1977; his first album without Willie Mitchell producing, and one of his last secular albums for quite a while) should track it down and listen, right now. It's beautiful. I think some sort of supernatural deity, master of all that is lovely, plays bass.

Lance Weber @ 396:

Hate to rain on your parade, but I think the folks here are motivated entirely by the selfish desire to have the world they live in be the way they want it to be, combined with the disillusioned realization that it won't get that way on its own.

On the other hand, this is not incompatible with your rendering of the matter, either.

(Add smileys as needed to #398 above.)

Dave Bell #393:

Got it downloaded the first time. Not bragging, just saying it can be done. Transatlantic connection may be at fault?

(Managed to figure out the basics of the problem yesterday from first principles: I could, from the cmd line, ping mit.edu . Housenet was working fine. Attempting to fiddle with my dns stufff didn't work. Other applications besides browser were also busted. What have all those applications got that dos-box does not? Oh. Firewall. Turn off ZoneAlarm, which is mildly OK for a few minutes because housenet also has a firewall. Gee, everything works. Turn on the much-maligned Windows firewall as a temporary measure. Google for problem; I could have done this last bit from spouse's computer, but I thought I'd see if I could debug it myself.)

I got rid of ZoneAlarm in favor of AVG back when ZA changed their resident executable shield so that it took over five minutes from click to execution to run things on my PC. It's been smooth sailing since then for me.

I have a massive headache and will be napping soon, so I thought I'd put this up now, hours before I read here.

The WashPost had an article on a young boy who is now a teen who developed gluten-free recipes for his sister and has a cookie, bread, etc. cookbook out.

Lance: Assuming I know the thread of which you speak; we are doing ok; NOW. At first we were more than a little short, and the amount of nurturing wasn't great.

Had that person left, never to return, I would not have been surprised.

To our credit we backpedaled from the hostilty and snippiness of our replies, but we could have been better.

Not to say we can't be as good as you see us; but we aren't what we ought to be (which is ever the way of the good people in the world)

Terry Karney @ 403:

There's a place we really should be
If we really could be
(Even though we couldn't);
And a place we really shouldn't.

All of us are seen
Stuck somewhere between,
Running hither, thither,
Or sitting in a dither.

I think it means a lot
Which way we're going, not
How far we just now seem
From the distant dream.

_________________________________

(And in case #398 was too clumsily put to be funny, it was meant to be a sour-faced rephrasing of "compassion is enlightened self-interest".)

HellBoy II: The Golden Army premieres today.
Yay!
I won't be able to go tody because of the local SF club's monthly meeting, but tomorrow night...

"There are things that go bump in the night. We bump back."

There have been many spoofs/homages to Discovery Channel's ad "I love the world". Yesterday I found one on Kouredios's blog that reminds me how much the Doctor loves our world.

@Serge#405:

HellBoy II: The Golden Army premieres today.
Yay!

Also Yay!

I won't be able to go tody because of the local SF club's monthly meeting, but tomorrow night...

My wife and I will be going out Saturday night as well, thanks to an AMC gift card from my sister and my Mom's willingness to watch our daughter for the night.

"There are things that go bump in the night. We bump back."

"You woke up the Baby!"

hehehee!

We loved the first one, and with Del Toro in on this one we just have to see it on the big screen. (Still haven't worked through the NetFlix queueueueue far enough to see Pan's Labyrinth, more's the pity.)

cajunfj40 @ 407... It's Lovecraft with a gun.

I remember a 2004 interview with del Toro where he talked about how the studios wanted the Rock to play HellBoy, but del Toro held firm and went for Perlman even though he's not a box-office draw. Mind you, the original movie didn't do well and the studio execs probably went nyah nyah. So, why is there a big-screen sequel out now? The sequel was originally going to be a direct-to-video release with the same cast, and pretty much the same story. What happened? Pan's Labyrinth happened.

Serge @ 408

the original movie didn't do well

More proof that we live in decadent and debased times.

Putting on my optimist's chapeau, it occurs to me that if Hellboy II does well at the box office, some bright person in Hollowood, looking for something brand new but just like it, might discover The Atrocity Archives, and decide to get Del Toro to do it. Nom nom nom ...

408: "Lovecraft with a gun" was the sadly-unavailable-on-DVD-at-least-so-my-hire-service-would-have-me-believe-the-useless-blighters-still-i-suppose-they-did-come-up-with-call-of-cthulhu-pretty-fast-so-maybe-they're-ok "Cast a Deadly Spell", with Fred Ward as LA gumshoe Phil Lovecraft in a Cthulhified remake of "The Big Sleep".

410: Simon Pegg (Shaun of the Dead, Hot Fuzz) needs to get involved with "The Atrocity Archives". I can think of no better Bob Howard. And Edward Fox as Angleton. Oh yes.

ajay @ 411... I remember Cast A Deadly Spell, with Ward as gumshoe Lovecraft. And with David Warner as his client.

Hackshaw: Do you realize how long they've waited for me? Centuries! Millennia!
Lovecraft: How long is that in dog years?

Bruce Cohen @ 409... We do indeed. By the way, HERE is a photo I once took of a small theater that was showing the original HellBoy. Notice on the marquee what other movie they were showing?

Obviously the theater manager's formative years were spent listening to William Shatner's The Transformed Man album.

Pyre @ 414...

Shatner began his musical career with the spoken word 1968 album The Transformed Man. Delivered with orchestral backings with the odd "psychedelic" flourish, his exaggerated, interpretive recitations of "Mr. Tambourine Man" and "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" became instant camp classics.

The latter can be heard and seen in YouTube with a montage mashing up Star Trek and I Love Lucy.

FYI for all the ZoneAlarm Free Firewall users in the fluorosphere, the company issued a new edition yesterday which resolves the problem with MS Update KB951748. I installed the MS update overnight and the new version of ZA had no trouble accessing the tubes and my ISP mail provider this a.m.

Be sure you get the download labeled:
ZoneAlarm version:7.0.483.000
TrueVector version:7.0.483.000
Driver version:7.0.483.000

"Duck lovers will be relieved to know that the 3-D adventure "Journey to the Center of the Earth" is not a remake of the 1959 picture starring Pat Boone and James Mason, in which Gertrude the duck meets an unfortunate end. There is no Gertrude in this "Journey," which makes no attempt to be an adaptation of the Jules Verne novel, anyway."

Stephanie Zacharek in Salon.com.

Does anyone understand why these lob bombs are US forces in Iraq's greatest threat? Rocket assisted mortars? Obviously, it's not the technology but something about the way they're applying it. I just don't understand what they're doing that makes it so much better than a regular mortar or a regular RPG or a regular roadside IED.

Good Grief. Has anyone here seen the monumental comment-singularity forming over at PZ Myer's Pharyngula?

Epacris #419: Yes, I have. It is something to behold.

That lob bomb thing sounds like a vehicle-mounted mortar array with a remotely-attached propagandist accessory which projects delta-force fear rays.

(goes and looks at Pharyngula).

Ye cats; talk about taking trolling to a new level. While I in no way condone the threats of violence against him, I have to say that my respect for PZ Myers has now dropped below what I had for William Sanders.

John Mark Ockerbloom @ 422: Why?

#422
When they're not getting into what I describe as 'evangelical atheism', most of the stuff over there is fairly intelligent.

(Besides, I like the Friday cephalopod pictures.)

John@423:

Basically, because Myers seems to see no problem in gratuitously going out of his way to stomp on the feelings of millions of his fellow citizens by stealing and desecrating something they hold extremely dear.

I don't have a problem in principle with Myers speaking his mind about religion, including him arguing vehemently that my beliefs are nonsensical or harmful. (I'll disagree with him, but respect that people have differences in belief, and should feel free to express those differences.) But he's going well beyond that.

Here's an analogy that might give some idea of the sort of thing he's doing: Suppose I have an item I cherish-- like, say, a doodled self-portrait left behind to me by a sister who died. It has no economic value, but it means the world to me. I take it with me frequently to remind me of her. One day I leave it on a bench for a moment, and someone who's been waiting for me to do this takes her drawing, and announces loudly that he is now going to slowly stab her, scrawl over it, draw someone raping her, and eventually destroy it, all in public so that I and anyone else who cares to watch can get a good look. If I complain, I'm told haughtily that my attachment to my dead sister is misplaced, and it's only a drawing anyway, so I should just grow up already.

Now imagine it's not just me he's doing this to, but millions of other people who feel the same way.

Putting aside for a moment the problem of him swiping the drawing (which has an analogue in the present situation), does he have a first amendment right to do this? Yes. Can I still consider it a thoroughly contemptible thing to do? You bet.

(It's actually worse from a Catholic point of view, since for us the Eucharist is not merely a beloved symbol but the very body and blood of Christ. But I also have a low opinion of US personnel intentionally and flagrantly desecrating a Koran in front of a Muslim, or the Taliban seizing and destroying Buddhist statues in Afghanistan.)

#425
I believe you're blaming the wrong person on that - PZ is defending the guy that took the wafer; he didn't take it himself ... although I think he might, if the occasion arose, and I don't agree with it. I think he should respect other people's views, even if he doesn't agree with them. But I'm not an atheist, either.

John Mark Ockerboom @ 425: Stealing? I thought they gave the wafers away.

Aside from that, I do that your point, but destroying a transient object meant to be eaten isn't, for me, in the same class of outrage as destroying a statue meant to exist for centuries.

I also thought giving the guy who burned the Burning Man ahead of schedule all that time in jail was excessive.

PJE@426: At the point I came in, PZ Myers was specifically asking someone to purloin a consecrated host and deliver it to him for desecration. (It sounds like he had also talked about a previous incident involving someone else several posts back as well, but I'm specifically referring to Myers' own solicitation.)

John@427: "I thought they gave the wafers away."

Not unconditionally. Communion is reserved for Catholics with proper disposition (in part to try to avoid desecrations), and there are guidelines printed in the mass books of Catholic churches that state this explicitly. Such Catholics in turn, are expected to know and respect what the Eucharist is, and what recipients are supposed to do with it. ("Take this... and eat it," to quote the liturgy, not "Take this and do what you like with it.")

Intent matters, as you yourself note with respect to the Buddhist statues "meant to exist for centuries". And the intent here is pretty clear.

re Lob Bombs: One, the "threat" seems overrated.

Two... they are more dangerous (in theory) because they, unlike a mortar, can be fired remotely. When one fires a mortar, one has to be present. If counterbattery radar is up, then the track back to the mortar can be read; and someone sent to deal with it.

This set-up, not so much.

For all that I like PZ Meyers when the subject is biology/evolution, the place is toxic when religion comes up. The disdain diplayed, and the bigotted stereotyping which so often appears is the main reason I only read it occaisionally.

Pyre: That was beautiful. It sums up so many things, and so well.

Thank you.

#428
At the point where I was seeing the thread, they were mostly still on the first incident, which was a college student who had palmed the wafer and taken it out. From there, it ballooned. (Mind, I think that was a stupid thing to do - I know that the guy shouldn't have accepted it in the first place, because he wasn't qualified.)

If PZ wants someone to steal a wafer so he can descerate it, although it shouldn't cause the level of threats he's getting, that's into the 'evangelical atheist' stuff that they get into over there... and which does keep me from visiting as often as I otherwise might.

(I got raised Methodist; it's looser, but that sort of thing isn't done there either. Cubes of peasant-type bread and tiny glasses of grape juice, passed along the rows for each person who wants to, to partake.)

Basically, because Myers seems to see no problem in gratuitously going out of his way to stomp on the feelings of millions of his fellow citizens by stealing and desecrating something they hold extremely dear

Uh, I think the initial post was more pointing out the reaction to stealing a communion wafer was that the guy got a bunch of death threats. I don't think the bible or catholic church authorizes execution of communion wafer thieves.

But since he was aware of what reaction one person got for stealing a communion wafer, I'm not exactly sure what he thought would happen if he suggested someone steal a communion wafer for him. Science being based on observation and repeatability, you'd think he could have seen it coming.

Not that it makes the death threats OK, but it does make me wonder what he thought would happen.

Terry@429: they, unlike a mortar, can be fired remotely.

Ah. That's odd. That's not new technology, and it's not a new tactics. It's just "new" to Iraq. We use unmanned predators to remote launch hellfire missiles at targets, and we're surprised when they use remote launched dumb rockets?

Are we talking about line of sight RPG kind of thingy or indirect fire rocket artillery thingy?

And PZ Myers only reported on it, he did not instigate the whatever kerfluffle.

After all, you can buy the wafers by the caseload if you want to.

Dancing oobleck!

Paula Helm Murray at 434: no, you cannot buy consecrated wafers. You can buy unconsecrated wafers and do whatever you like with them, no one should care, they're just matzoh crackers cooked by nuns. But for millions of people around the world, a consecrated wafer partakes of the divine and should at least not be deliberately demeaned, if not for its own sake, then for the sake of people who believe it to be holy. My understanding is that Muslims believe that the Koran is in some special sense God's Word -- different from the way Christians believe that the Bible is God's Word and closer to the way Catholics venerate the Host. (Catholics also refer to Jesus as the Word of God.)

I don't condone death threats, of course, and Bill Donohue of the Catholic League or whatever it is (makes me think of The League of Red-Headed Gentlemen) is a narcissistic self-promoting idiot.

I've enjoyed PZ Meyer's blog but AFAIAC he's just crossed a line.

Open threadedness: There's a new ... clip about the Watchmen movie. It's not a preview, it's sort of a "making of" or "behind the scenes" thing that's about 3 minutes long

Around 2:20, you see a glimpse of Rorschach.

John@427: I also thought giving the guy who burned the Burning Man ahead of schedule all that time in jail was excessive.

Given that the rules for Burning man says "There are no rules about how one must behave or express oneself at this event", I'd agree.

Apparently, there's a "Well, everything but that" attached as a footnote somewhere.

I think the best comment on the whole wafer kerfluffle (only people don't get killed over kerfluffles) comes from some Buddhist or other: "You spit, I bow." Yet there's a real risk of violence: the miracle of transubstantiation (my word, the spellchecker has it) has been an enormous focus of conflict over the years. Why, you'd think it was the devil was involved, or something.

Greg London: Indirect. That's the real reason they've done so little damage. A mortar (60mm, the sort most commonly used in such attacks) has a range of about half a mile, at most. Without too much trouble (a guy on a cell phone) adjustments can be made, and the target actually hit. With rockets... not so much, at least not until you get to complex things like MLRS. So less a couple of dozen, and some good guesstimations (or really precise machining/fueling) they are going to be not more useful than the Congreve Rockets of the Napoleonic Wars.

My cynical self says this is an adminstration attempt to make Iran look more active, and so ratchet the rhetoric and make McCain more effective a candidate.

Paula: One cannot buy consecrated host. The whole thing is purely provocative. P.Z. Meyers has to know that it's something catholics feel strongly about (hell, I am recusant, and more than a trifle lapsed, but this bothers me; at a gut level it pisses me off), and with idiots like Donohue more than willing to stoke the flames (and a huge streak of religious intolerance/persecution complex in this country) it's not surprising some of them are going to go way beyond reasonable in their responses.

To then hold them up, and have the entirety of the faithful treated as if they are cut of the same cloth which certainly seems the tenor of a lot of the comments), well it's a cheap shot, and dirty pool.

Greg: re burning man. I thought the "premature" attempt to burn the man was perfectly in keeping with the core idea of getting rid of attachments to things (which was, it seems, the purpose of the whole thing).

My cynical self says this is an adminstration attempt to make Iran look more active, and so ratchet the rhetoric and make McCain more effective a candidate.

Yeah, I read that article, and it sounded like some super high tech stuff that couldn't possibly come from insurgents with surplus weapons, and they said that the guys who were using them were extremely well trained to the point that one military official compared them to our delta force, and my bullshit detector set off flags. So, then I tried to figure out what the hell kind of weapon they were actually talking about, and damned if they didn't say anything specific about it.

Based on the title "lob bombs", I guessed dumb, unguided, indirect weapons, and I was thinking what in hell is so special about that that it's suddenly the biggest threat US troops face in Iraq?

The whole thing smells like Niger yellowcake.

I loved Cast a Deadly Spell. IIRC, the writer was even hip enough to put in some references to Heinlein's "Magic, Inc." near the beginning.

By the way, Cthullu, squid in the desert? Not a good idea.

Greg... they may be well trained... no way to know (and leaving not enough trace to be caught, and setting them up so they aren't spotted before launch isn't trivial. Not D-boy material, but better than amateur.

OK, the Lob Bomb article mentions a 107mm rocket, a size which is made by Iran and China. It's a standard multiple-launch rocket, nothing special in itself.

What seems to be a little more ingenious is that the guerillas involved are copying the IRA, and putting their rocket launcher inside a small truck, fired on a timer, so all they have to do is park in the right place, pointing in the right direction, and walk away.

The IRA managed this in Whitehall, though they had to build their own missiles, which didn't work very well.

And a range of 8000 metres. Against a target the size of one of the American bases you should be able to keep the bangage inside the perimeter, though park-and-shoot probably doesn't give enough pointing accuracy for a long-range shot.

Really, this is nothing new, and the way it's being painted, with the Lob Gun label, looks damned suspicious.

So the Iraqi guerillas are getting good enough to make it hard work for the US Army to catch them.

Think of it as evolution in action.

Marilee@435: Whoa! Funky.

Dave Bell @ 444:
OK, the Lob Bomb article mentions a 107mm rocket, a size which is made by Iran and China. It's a standard multiple-launch rocket, nothing special in itself.

Indeed, this article mentions that

A U.S. explosives expert, Maj. Marty Weber, confirmed in April 2007 that most 107mm rockets found in Iraq were Chinese-made.

Chinese, Yugoslav and Pakistani 107mm rockets have also been the weapon of choice of Taliban guerrillas in Afghanistan, according to U.S. military officers there.

There are several examples in that article of US officials making statements about Iranian origins for insurgent weapons in Iraq, which they are later unable to back up.

RE the Host incident at Pharyngula--the whole thing started because the international Catholic reaction to a college kid palming some Host was absolutely insane. There were people calling it a hate crime, asking his Uni administrators to kick him out, making death threats. Even Fox news ran a story that said "he's not in trouble now, but if you complain to his college administrators he will be."

Myers picked up on this incredibly violent reaction as a measure of how the Catholic church retains a lot of the good ol' fashioned Inquisitionary spirit.

As the man said, Traditiooooooon!

I occasionally click through a few pages of Pharyngula for interesting biology bits, but mostly it's angry atheism. I don't like spite and bile. I really don't like people offering to desecrate holy things.

After a certain point, I expect biologists to have something more interesting to talk about.

Serge @ #417:

Having now seen a trailer for the film, I feel moved to relate a remarkable discovery that the characters make (and which the Salon review neglects to mention, perhaps because the characters themselves take it entirely in their stride): apparently it's possible to travel hundreds of miles into the earth's crust and still get pretty good mobile phone reception...

Paul A @ 450... I think I'll stick with Gertrude the Duck. And with Pat Boone covering his naughty bits by holding a sheep in front of said naughty bits.

Myers picked up on this incredibly violent reaction as a measure of how the Catholic church retains a lot of the good ol' fashioned Inquisitionary spirit.

JimR at 448: so this foolish college student received death threats from bishops? The College of Cardinals? The Jesuits? The Pope? Opus Dei?

No. He got threats from stupid people who happen to be Catholic, and from Donohue, who in NO way represents the Church, except in his own mind. AFAIK, the institutional church has stayed out of this whole thing. As Myers should have.

"He got threats from stupid people who happen to be Catholic"

He got threats from people who were taught that the wafer was *human* by the Catholic Church. I don't think this is one of the Church's better teachings, personally.

May I humbly suggest staying away from discussions of religion or of lack thereof?

Reading the discussion about artillary, I had occassion to reflect that, although I've heard thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of artillary rounds explode, the only unexploded round I've seen was the one my little sister and a bunch of Brownie Scouts picked out of the gravel at the edge of the Nisqually River and carried back to our campfire as a trophy of the day. The leaders all freaked and got us away from it at a quick march, and when the ordinance guys saw it they evacuated a half-mile circle and blew it up in place.

That one was big (more than knee-high to my fourth grade self) and apparently WW1 vintage. I've always wondered what its official description was.

(It's also the #1 situation in my youth when a cell phone would have been good to have, given that we were two miles from the trail head and five from the nearest phone).

Randolph, I am not going to explain/debate/defend the doctrine of transubstantiation on this thread. (*Loud cheers*) The college student who began this was foolish, the people who threatened him are also foolish and need to Be Quiet, and PZ Myers is in no way helping resolve this overheated situation sensibly.

However, civilization will survive. By this time next year no one will remember any of it.

Pat Boone starred in a 1959 version of "Journey to the Center of the Earth"? Oh wow....

Lizzy L @ 456... Yup. Pat Boone was in the 1959 version that starred James Mason. Pat got to play his small accordeon a lot and eventually the Earth's magnetic field couldn't take it anymore and yanked his musical instrument away,

Peter Erwin @ 447:

Indeed, this article mentions that

A U.S. explosives expert, Maj. Marty Weber, confirmed in April 2007 that most 107mm rockets found in Iraq were Chinese-made.

and that

Chinese, Yugoslav and Pakistani 107mm rockets have also been the weapon of choice of Taliban guerrillas in Afghanistan, according to U.S. military officers there.

Lizzy L, add to that, that Donohue keeps claiming he speaks for the church, when he's not even in the hierarchy. I kind of hope someone from Rome calls him in for a little talk.

Lizzy, then let the Church guide its flock, and the atheists guide their own. But of course that isn't what's being done; Donohue is busy trying to create a stampede.

Terry Karney @ 430: Thank you. It was a poor cousin to Piet Hein's Grooks (which you may enjoy, if you haven't seen them yet). The bit about it mattering which direction you're going came up from memory of something George MacDonald said in his Princess-and-the-Goblins books.

Just a passing thought: how many people here write fan-fiction, or other sorts of amateur fiction?

PJE, #459: I don't think that's real likely; it's one of these doctrinal things that the church has just about married (one would think the Husband would object but, oh, well). There's probably a significant faction in Rome who agrees with him. Bleh.

Dave @ 462
I've tried it. I have a bunch of friends who also have. Some even have turned pro.

Pyre @458:
In much the same way that our Anti-Terrorist In Chief is cozy with the Saudis, when most of the 9/11 crew were Saudi and the Al-Wahhabi doctrine of the Taleban etc. originated with and is promulgated primarily by the Saudis.

Dave Bell @462: Used to, though these days I get paid for it...er, for my scribblings. Torchwood's been tempting me, though.

I tried to write up the lob bomb story on warhw. I hope I got all the facts right.

Hmm, Readercon is next week.
Are there any semi-official Fluorospherian activities?

(Barring catastrophe, etc., I expect to be there. I also have next Friday off, I'm on a alternating Fridays off work schedule now, my employer implemented that this week.)

Doyle and I will be arriving late (around 2300?) on Friday.

How do y'all feel about an expedition over the weekend to the new Batman flick?

Dave Bell @ 462, I've done it, and might again if I find another fandom with All The Right Factors, but these days most of my writing's in an original setting that grew up alongside the fanfic.

All The Right Factors: characters I love and can identify strongly with, a compelling setting, and things that I perceive as holes, gaps, or unanswered questions that I'm not content to just let sit there until the author gets around to it. This often means that I get the urge to write fanfic about stories that aren't as well-constructed as stories I enjoy more!

Randolph at 460, Donohue is not "the Church," no matter what he says. He's a blowhard narcissist with an agenda; he's a media creation. He's a Catholic, sure -- but he's in no way a spokesperson for the institutional church, any more than I am. He really isn't. And while what he says is wacko and rude and even offensive, it isn't (I think; I'll admit I haven't read most of his comments) doctrinally unsound, and even if it is doctrinally unsound -- there's no way for the Church to shut him up, nor should it. It's a free country. He can say stupid stuff about his own religion if he likes.

#469 Jim/James/Mac/Macdonald

Sounds good to me!

Oh, as regarding dining near the hotel--there are three restaurants on the other side of 128 that are about half a mile away (back of hotel driveway head west, turn left onto the street and go under 128, take the second left after going under the highway, into the center-of-area-is-parking-shops-are-around-the parking, and there's a Not Your Average Joe's, a restaurant with the name "Ginger" in it, and a Fresh City, on the southwest corner of the parking lot. (the east side of the parking lot has a two story Borders. There's another restaurant, which I think may be an expensive one, The Capital Grill, on the other side of another parking lot which is on the east side of the Border's. )

The nearest cinemaplexes, of course, are the one in Woburn three exits east (2-3 miles) of the hotel off 128 on the southwest corner of 128 & route 38, and the one in Burlington, a mile or so east, up the hill on the west side of Middlesex Turnpike (Mall Road, which is the street the hotel is one, is parallel to route 128 and extends from Cambridge Street (3A north of 128, route 3 south of 128)on the east side and intersects with the Middlesex Turnpike, heading west, with the Burlington Mall bordered by 128, the Middlesex Turnpike, and Mall Road).

I haven't eaten at any of the restaurants near the Borders, but at least one of them in the southwest corner of the parking lot, smells wonderful. (I got out of the habit of going to restaurants during my long bouts of red ink cashflow due to employment (or lack thereof) status).

geekosaur @ 465:
In much the same way that our Anti-Terrorist In Chief is cozy with the Saudis, when most of the 9/11 crew were Saudi and the Al-Wahhabi doctrine of the Taleban etc. originated with and is promulgated primarily by the Saudis.

To be slightly picky: the Taliban's theology -- such as it is -- derives from the Deobandi movement, which originated in British colonial India and isn't directly related to Wahhabism. (Though in practice there end up being some similarities.)

Of course, the Saudis did provide the Taliban with significant financial (and possibly military) aid during the late 1990s, before they got fed up with the Taliban's hosting of bin Laden.

Nearest package store to Readercon:

Busa Liquors, a mile or two north on Cambridge Street (go onto Mall Road east from the hotel, turn left (north) onto Cambridge Street at the light (the other two choices are turn right, or illegally go straight and hit the cars coming off the exit from 128....) and drive past the Burlington High School football field on the left, drive past the town green on the right, drive past Building 19 on the right, at the bottom of the hill there's a traffic light and either turn right then turn left into the parking lot for the Shaw's with Busa on the western side of the Shaw's.

Busa generally has wine tasting on Fridays from 4 PM to 7 PM.

In the running for second nearest is a package store at 128 & route 38 in the sort of strip mall (has a Stop & Shop which regrettably is no longer a 24 hour store, an AC Moore, a small branch bank, remnants of the Middlesex Canal, and a statue of Col Baldwin, father of the founder of civil engineering. His house is still standing, across the street, by a Middlesex Canal remnant--he had a private landing on it for visitors--with a Chinese restaurant occupying the building. Nope, never eaten there, either) at the northwest corner of the intersection (there's also a traffic circle aka rotary involved...)

More toe-tapping?

Caveat: I can't find any confirmation of this in a mainstream news outlet. But if the facts are substantially as described... how tacky.

Paula @ 474, I went to elementary school with one of the Busa kids.

Wanted to share this snark sent by a friend during an IM convo on Hugo voting:

They need to make 30 second tv ads so I can make an informed decision

Teen finds baby bat in her bra.Teen finds baby bat in her bra.

Dave @462: I write fanfic, though under a pseudonym.

geekosaur @ 465, Peter Erwin @ 473:

Right, it was the Taliban's strange bedfellow, Osama bin Laden himself, who was the Wahhabi.

That distinction made, geekosaur's point remains: more 9/11 hijackers were Saudi than any other nationality (none were Iraqi), yet GWB's Saudi ties are prominent; the Bush family and bin Laden family both had common financial interests (Carlyle Group); GWB gave the Taliban a substantial financial boost early in his term; the bin Laden family were quickly and discreetly flown out of the USA while all other flights were grounded after the 9/11 attack; and note the inexplicable diversions of US efforts away from tracking down the bin Laden network, both before and after 9/11.

Dave @ 462: I guess it depends on what one counts as fanfic. Prose: occasional small bits, mostly satire-as-dialogue. Filk, image oddities ("The Adventure of Agatha Heterodyne and the Acting Ensign", frex), plush toys, etc.; whatever catches my attention, really.

Dave @462, I write fanfic, or at least I have written fanfic and might continue doing so assuming I can just... get past the first paragraph of the twentieth part of what I was writing before I stopped writing it.

Lizzy L, #471: "Donohue is not 'the Church,' no matter what he says." Of course. I'm glad that the Church's word is not law in the USA, but the as a communicant he's committed to accepting the Church's guidance, and the Church, equally, is morally obligated to offer that guidance, as the representative of God on Earth. Seriously, if Donohue got a note from his bishop, don't you think he'd obey? And if Donohue is preaching false doctrine, isn't the Church obliged to send that note?

Not going to happen, more's the pity. Sigh.

#471, Lizzy.
Donahue is the duly appointed (elected? I don't know the selection process) "President and CEO of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, the nation's largest Catholic civil rights organization". ( source ) It is an organization with an estimated 350,000 members (More? Less? That number's from the Wikipedia article--not available on the website, as far as I can tell, and fairly out of date)--all of whom, presumably, are catholic. It has quotes of approval and support of the Archbishops of New York, Los Angeles, Boston, Baltimore and Denver on its webpage.

He may not represent the Church, but he isn't a lone nutcase. He's a nutcase with tons of clout, lots of supporters, and clear connections to the Catholic Church in the US.

Marilee @ 478...

she said the animals roost anywhere that appears dark and safe

Kathryn from Sunnyvale is organizing a Making Light party at Denvention. She'll be away for the next few days so she asked me to handle the signup, just to get an idea of how many people may show up. If you don't have an LJ account, just post anonymously and put your signature within the post.

HERE is the signup.

Here is her LJ entry, reproduced at her request:

The Making Light party shall be on Friday [the best date according to the calculometermancy]

--starting at around 9 or 9:30ish.

--going on until ?? unless there's the rare event of the Masquerade starting and ending Late, and then it would end at ??+Late.

--It will be in a regular room at the Denvention Party Hotel.

--It will be announced on ML, but not postered and announced much at Denvention itself. Subtle pointers, there.

--Abi can be at the party through the magic of technologies.

Greg@438: that's a quote out of context; it's immediately followed by
(save the rules that serve to protect the health, safety, and experience of the community at large);
I haven't tried digging to find what rules they admit to, but not spoiling the party by burning the central symbol beforehand sounds like a plausible reading.

Lizzy L @471ff: The reactionaries in this country are all over anyone liberal who doesn't immediately disavow anyone making radical noises (see: Obama & Wright). It seems appropriate to me to chastise organized Catholicism for not speaking clearly about Donohue's errors. "The Church" has slapped down its own members when they get too far off the beam (usually on the liberal side (cf VotF), but IIRC also on the severely-reactionary side). I wonder whether they find him too useful an idiot to counter?

Dave (462): I've only committed one piece of fanfic to paper (or electrons), almost 25 years ago, but I usually have fanfic scenarios running in my head.

@487: not spoiling the party by burning the central symbol beforehand sounds like a plausible reading

Yeah, and 14 months in prison for "spoiling a party" seems pretty harsh.

Greg @489

1 day of the sentence might be for changing the party.

99 percent is for lighting the roof of a complicated tent that has people in it constantly. Even if he was certain no people were in--and you can't be, people can be asleep in hidden corners--the *firefighters* had to go in to check. That's always risky.

The pyrofolks do lots of prep to set a burn up right, removing all the tents, art, machines making algae generated hydrogen, mazes, etc. before the Burn.

i.e. What's the harm of lighting off a fireworks display early-they're going to be burned anyways...? preparation, competence, making sure there's a safety boundary to keep out the drunk or tired...

Setting a structural fire is always going to be treated harshly vs mere malicious vandalism and laziness--heck, why didn't he bring his own man to burn?

If he isn't compos, then he should get medical help. But his action did include some callous disregard.

CHip at 487: I am not sure it's fair to continue this discussion: we've already had one request that it be dropped. However, I really question what you mean when you talk about "organized Catholicism." The U. S. Council of Catholic Bishops? The bishop of the diocese Donohue lives in? Who?

Also, do you really want the Church (whatever you might mean by that) to "admonish" Donohue for engaging in right wing political speech? Because I absolutely do not, any more than I want the Church to admonish me for left wing political speech. IMO Donohue is engaging in idiotic public discourse which is bringing the name of the Church into disrepute, I suppose he could be privately admonished by his pastor for that -- but that's not my business, or yours.

Please feel free to click on my name to contact me by e-mail if you are interested enough to take the topic off-thread.

Lizzy L @ 491... I am not sure it's fair to continue this discussion: we've already had one request that it be dropped.

I was out of line for that one, Lizzy.

Serge, thank you for saying that, but I don't know that you were out of line. As we all know, discussions of religious issues can be very dull for those who have no interest in them, and I have no desire to hijack the thread. If there are just 2 of us who want to have this conversation we can have it privately, no harm done.

Lizzy L, #493: "Also, do you really want the Church (whatever you might mean by that) to "admonish" Donohue for engaging in right wing political speech?"

Hunh? Myers has received death threats because Donohue is out there trolling for violent psychotics. It's not the political speech that I'm concerned with, it's the encouragement of violence. That's something I wish the Church would stand against.

Re Donohue & Myers, I think one post will exhaust my opinionating. Fair enough for all the outraged shrieking to fill the blogosphere and the newspapers and the airwaves; opinion's free. Anyone who utters death threats in either directions should cool their heels in a jail cell until they realize it's not such a good idea. Anyone who seriously and publicly advocates such attacks should be seriously and publicly shunned, held in such revulsion that they change their names and move away for shame. Violence ought to be the bright red line. My own personal opinion. No-one's dogma. Out.

Your new (post-apocalyptic) home team: The Outquisition.

I agree with Pyre: people who make death threats should be arrested and charged. People who incite other people to make death threats should be charged if what they have done is a chargeable offense.

Bill Donohue's relationship with his pastor -- who might admonish him in a spiritual context -- is none of anyone else's business.

Randolph, you want "the Catholic Church" to make a statement against the encouragement of violence with specific reference to Bill Donohue and PZ Myers? I truly don't know who could or would make such a statement. I suppose it would be the bishop of whatever diocese Bill Donohue belongs to, or perhaps the bishop of the Minnesota diocese where Myers lives. But why make the whole sorry incident even bigger than it is? According to Myers, about 10 of the supposed individuals who sent him ugly comments are in fact all the same person. Lots of sock-puppetry going on over there. So there are a few somewhat wacko Catholics out there. Not a surprise.