I'm going to be going to my first Worldcon, too! Also, I have space in my room if someone or someones would like to share a room...? At the Crowne Plaza Hotel (#2 on the Denvention hotels page), a nonsmoking room with two full beds, arrive Thursday check out Sunday, $129/night for the room even split? I am contained and non-snoring and used to coming in quietly with a modicum of fuss, and if Denver gets hit by some horrible disaster I can lead the exodus 14 miles south to my parents' house... ;)

Oh, and right now on my Livejournal I have a picture from 1913 of a man climbing down a rope from an airship onto a speeding steam train. Awesome!! I found it here.

Posted June 30, 2008 8:19 PM by Madeline F

Alas, we aren't going. Between my still being unemployed and the fact that it isn't good for someone undergoing chemotherapy (my partner) to be out in huge crowds, we're staying home.

Posted June 30, 2008 8:33 PM by Paula Helm Murray

Paula Helm Murray @ 10... My best wishes to you and yours.

Posted June 30, 2008 8:38 PM by Serge

Thanks for the XKCD-explaining sidelight, Patrick. Not knowing the source material, my first reaction to the comic was "Well, yes, I suppose Munroe's allowed to do a clip show, at this point."

People who enjoyed the Discovery Channel ad will also appreciate Where the Hell is Matt?, which charmed its way through my personal blogocircle last week. I have watched it a dozen times and still mist up a little over it.

Posted June 30, 2008 8:49 PM by Jason McIntosh

albatross #4:
It's the emergency number in New Zealand too. Our trans-Tasman neighbours (Australia) use '000'.

I hadn't realised that there's a Wikipedia entry for '111'

Posted June 30, 2008 8:54 PM by Soon Lee

#7 ::: Tony Zbaraschuk

I haven't read his India: A History, but I have read John Keay's The Honourable Company: A History of the English East India Trading Company. His India is the first single Vol. history of India since the 1950's. He's a popular writer, not an academic, so it's narrative history, and should be readable.

Love, C.

Posted June 30, 2008 8:54 PM by Constance Ash

Which led me to this.

Posted June 30, 2008 8:56 PM by Soon Lee

Denvention 1981 was my first convention. Not just my first worldcon, my first convention, period. I was 17, and flew from Seattle with my friend Jim, and we stayed with friends of the family who happened to be nuns.

Posted June 30, 2008 9:16 PM by Scraps

The Discovery Channel commercial and Where the Hell is Matt? both make me smile like it's my job.

Posted June 30, 2008 9:30 PM by Diatryma

#7 Tony Zbaraschuk; #14 Constance Ash

I have read John Keay's India: A History, and reccomend it unreservedly. I intended to say more, but seem to have lost coherency, so am going to bed.

Posted June 30, 2008 9:31 PM by Neil Willcox

John Keay reminded me of this book by John Kaye I found at the British Museum. Google has a (buggy?) scan of a copy from Harvard here.

Really, I was just looking for an excuse to share the shiny tooling.

Posted June 30, 2008 9:44 PM by Ralph Giles

A particulate deposit: Court cites nonsense poem in ruling for Gitmo detainee

That's right: a federal appeals court liked the Bush admin argument to something out of Lewis Carroll.

Posted June 30, 2008 9:53 PM by C. Wingate

Don S. Davies has died at the age of 65

Farewell, Hammond of Texas.

Posted June 30, 2008 10:03 PM by Scott Taylor

I'd never seen the Discovery channel ad until it was linked to here, so when I saw the XKCD strip I immediately thought of this.

You could almost imagine the XKCD/Discovery channel song being sung to the same tune. That was how I heard it in my head, screechy voice and all.

Posted June 30, 2008 10:11 PM by Wesley

Serge @ 2: I'm speechless with horror.

Ïa, ïa, ïa made the best pun, and opened the door for the nameless ones.

R'lyeh, I can only prostrate myself in front of the master and beg for mercy.

Posted June 30, 2008 10:17 PM by Ginger

There's a nicer-looking scan of the East India Company book at the Internet Archive. (Well, the pages are nicer than Google's, anyway. They don't show the spine.)

It'll be in tomorrow's update for The Online Books Page. (And I'm always happy to get suggestions for more titles to add)

Posted June 30, 2008 10:17 PM by John Mark Ockerbloom

Paula Helm Murray @ 10: Best wishes for a successful treatment!

Posted June 30, 2008 10:18 PM by Ginger

Skwid and Madeline F:

Congratulations! WorldCon is a blast! This will be my third... my second for the whole weekend.

Please join the Church of the Great Washed and pack your shower supplies!

Posted June 30, 2008 10:28 PM by B. Durbin

Turns out the library I work at has the history of the Honorable Company, and I am borrowing the other history of India via interlibrary loan. (A wonderful invention, truly...)

Posted June 30, 2008 10:43 PM by Tony Zbaraschuk

I wasn't much interested in the movie "Punisher", which is in the works, but someone showed me a preview for it today, and holy crap, it's Titus Pullo!

Might have to do a matinee. Or guys night. or something.

Posted June 30, 2008 11:08 PM by Greg London

I'm still reeling a bit from having seen Wall-E yesterday.

I'm describing it to fannish types as what might result from a Robert Sheckley novel taking advantage of The Velveteen Rabbit. Mixed with a bit of "Silent Running" and "2001."

I sat through the credits partially because I'm not sure I could walk straight if I'd try to leave right away. In any case, the visuals behind the first third of so of the credits are a kind of coda to the story, one that could be influenced by All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace.

Posted June 30, 2008 11:12 PM by Stefan Jones

Titus Pullo? Oooh! And I haven't even seen Iron Man yet, or WALL-E.

Posted June 30, 2008 11:27 PM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

Iron Man? Two chrome-plated thumbs up. WALL-E? Mere digits won't do justice. I'm excited to dip my toe into the wild untamed waters of a Making Light open thread (the courage granted by the fact that I can't possibly go off topic is diminished by the fact that I know that there are astonishing experts in every field who will swoop down on my stupidity like a kestrel nabbing a hapless rodent.) Nevertheless, eventually, when one delurks, plunge one must.

I'm doing a straw poll of advice from fans (and or slans, or even flans) on the expat experience. I've been offered a plum of a job opportunity...in Munich. Sounds cool, but what about the books? The movies? The fan community? Advice and help from anglophones living in old Yurp would be massively appreciated...Vielen dank!

And in the spirit of semi-on-topic-ness, I wanna be there when they switch on the LHC. Worth being around if the universe ceases to exist...I can say:

"I -

Posted July 1, 2008 12:03 AM by dlbowman76

(1) In the Gitmo particle, CNN leaves us with this little propaganda turd: "The ruling came 18 days after the Supreme Court concluded that the approximately 270 men held at Guantanamo have a basic constitutional right to challenge their detention in federal courts, another setback for the Bush administration's anti-terror and war policies."

As if the Bush Administration had "anti-terror policies." God.

(2) See Wall-E. I kid you not. "Try blue! It's the new red!" is the new quote around the house. Also, "I don't want to survive. I want to live!" It's all good! Also, given that sometimes I seem to be aware of some Internet traditions others haven't seen yet, you can visit the the Website of the Buy-n-Large corporation. I especially got a kick out of the privacy policy.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:05 AM by Michael Roberts

Thanks to eight dear friends in six different states, I'll be at Worldcon this year, too! Better yet, I'll be pulling a trick I've done just three times before: hosting parties every night of the convention.

In 1992 and 1996, I did so with the Fan Lounge; in 1992 and 2000, I did so for Minneapolis in '73. (So you noticed that doubling up in '92 did you? Yep, me, too. 'Twas fun...once. I learned that running one party suite every night of the Worldcon is plenty for even my party platter. Parties all day and all night doesn't leave enough time for...shopping.)

This year the Big Fun is on behalf of the Reno in 2011 Worldcon bid. Whether you're at your first Worldcon or your 31st, after each great day with Making Light regulars and other erudite folks on the program, please come and party with friends old and new in the Reno suite. Good times, and All That Jazz....

See you on the Funway.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:08 AM by Geri Sullivan

Innocents seduced by Tania!

Posted July 1, 2008 12:31 AM by Serge

Dang Serge, you make me sound so...Mrs. Robinsonesque. And I won't be 36 until next week!

But what I was really going to say is - It's my first Worldcon too! I'm in Denver right now for work, and I'll be back next month.

Be ready for lots of people complaining about figuring out the elevators and towers in the AdamsMark/Sheraton. Oy.

Turns out Mensa is having a meeting here as well. I was wearing my XKCD t-shirt this evening, and someone asked me if I was here for the Mensa convention. Hee.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:43 AM by Tania

#32: "you can visit the the Website of the Buy-n-Large corporation."

Thank you . . . . that is a work of genius. ("Anti-Consumer Groups are 'Opportunities'.", "BnL Acquires World's News Headlines.") I've seen lots of tie-in websites, but this one is deep, both in terms of links and in its versimilitude.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:44 AM by Stefan Jones

Tania @ 35... And I won't be 36 until next week!

Posted July 1, 2008 12:58 AM by Serge

Serge and Ginger: Dagon-it, I've forgotten what I was going to gibber. I seldom wander from Texas for the sake of events, but if the Mountain won't come to the Madness...

B. Durbin, you'll be pleased to hear that, though my geekly tendencies be legion, my hygeine tends towards the fastidious when there's running water available. If I'm camping, it goes out the proverbial window.

Speaking of camping, I know one of the chief pieces of advice (for Denver in specific for us Sea-level folk, and for WorldCons in general) is to stay hydrated...I was thinking of bringing my Camelbak, but it seems like it would be slightly odd. Perhaps being concerned about "slightly odd" is well on the absurd side regarding accessorizing at WorldCon, but, well, you know.

Still kind of pouty about not having figured out a way to get my big Djembe up there.

Very excited!

Posted July 1, 2008 1:01 AM by Skwid

Scott Taylor #21: Not Major Briggs! Crappy.

Posted July 1, 2008 1:03 AM by ethan

Message sent re room, Madeleine.

Posted July 1, 2008 1:19 AM by elise

I will not be at Worldcon, sadly.

But if there's a Making Light party, and anyone has a webcam and a Skype account, I can stay up till silly times with my laptop...?

Posted July 1, 2008 1:27 AM by abi

So, about that Discovery Channel sidelight... wow, thanks!

Occasionally we miss out on some great things through not doing TV. I watched it yesterday morning, as I was up a little earlier than the rest of the household. When my 6-year old son got up, a bit later, I showed it to him.

About 10 minutes later he came running back asking me to play the video again. Then again. Then he got his astronaut figure and asked me to play it again while he held the astronaut up in orbit around the globe to act it out. We probably played it about 20 times more for him, before I had to declare a moratorium. Damn it, the world is awesome, and it's delightful when kids and adults can recognize it together.

(But a quibble, because I obsess about things like this: in the video for the first verse, that looks like it's obviously an orca to me, not a great white shark. If they couldn't find any pictures of great whites breaching, couldn't they have changed the lyric to "I love when orcas fly"?)

Posted July 1, 2008 1:39 AM by Clifton Royston

Boom de yada, boom de yada! I listened to that about 50 times at work yesterday, without the excuse of a small child, and my brain continued to play it on high rotation all evening. It's almost the perfect earworm.

Posted July 1, 2008 2:01 AM by Nancy

This seems like a good place to mention that I'll have a supply of bright-yellow Fluorosphere buttons (with a space to write your name in) available at Denvention. They're free to any ML denizen; pick yours up at the Starcat Designs table in the dealer room.

Posted July 1, 2008 2:08 AM by Lee

Tania, great fabric!

Posted July 1, 2008 2:14 AM by Marilee

Abi,

There will be a Making Light party*, and my Significant has been doing all sorts of nifty things with an HD camera, a laptop, and skype accounts.

We can has Talking Pictures. We can carry Abi around the room to join in on conversations, making them better, sonnet'r, faster... we can have the 6 Million baud party.

(Does anyone know what type of input jacks the TVs in the party hotel have?)

---------
* I'm volunteering to host it. Day and time not set-- we don't quite have our schedules scheduled for panels, dinners, etc.

Not so sure of the faux bid party (as in 2006), because we have a regular room, not a suite. (If I/we can co-host it elsewhere (as happened at Westercon), that might also exist, but would be mostly to entirely separate from MLgatherings.)

Posted July 1, 2008 3:40 AM by Kathryn from Sunnyvale

abi #41: I will not be at Worldcon, sadly. But if there's a Making Light party, and anyone has a webcam and a Skype account, I can stay up till silly times with my laptop...?

With any kind of luck, the Virtual Tucker Hotel video chat room should be operating during the convention.

Posted July 1, 2008 3:40 AM by Earl Cooley III

Kathryn @ 46... We can carry Abi around the room to join in on conversations

Posted July 1, 2008 6:32 AM by Serge

Denvention will be my fifth Worldcon, and my first for which I have traveled outside of California. (Although there's a good chance I'll go to Montreal; that'll be my first outside the US.)

Posted July 1, 2008 6:41 AM by David Goldfarb

Kathryn, I was about to say "Guys, we have got to have a party at Denvention," but ... lo, there it is. If the schedules aren't set yet, I hope it's not the same night as the Tor party.

I will do my level best to furnish a pitcher of Scurvy Cure.

Posted July 1, 2008 6:55 AM by Teresa Nielsen Hayden

With any luck I will succeed in recognizing the correct date for the Tor party and the Making Light party. (In Anaheim two years ago I got the days mixed up and accidentally skipped the Tor party in favor of a game of Age of Steam: France. The game was fun, but I suspect the party would have been better.)

Posted July 1, 2008 7:04 AM by David Goldfarb

Wrong continent for Worldcon, but I will be at most of Stabcon (An RPG/Boardgaming con) in Stockport this coming weekend. Any UK Making Light regulars going to this?

Posted July 1, 2008 7:48 AM by Tim Hall

Portion of Brain: Can we go to Denver?
Rest of Me: No.
PB: But we *like* Denver! It has the art museum, with the one painting we adore, and Coyote tapdancing! Also a Worldcon.
Me: And all the cool kids will be there?
PB: YES THEY WILL BE.
Me: All the cool kids but one, then.

I went to Denver with my lab group-- driving, even, because there were so many of us-- and we had a great time. Three of us skipped a conference session and lunch to go to the art museum, which turned into half a day out because it is a fun art museum with a lot to talk about. It's a fun place.

Posted July 1, 2008 8:04 AM by Diatryma

Virtual conventions?

I have a webcam, but I do not think I shall use it. I wouldn't want to shatter anyone's illusions.

Posted July 1, 2008 8:09 AM by Dave Bell

#20: Someone with more poetic talent, or perhaps just more time, could probably write The Hunting of the Terrorist: Stupidity for Eight Years...

Posted July 1, 2008 8:23 AM by Chris

Teresa @ 50... I will do my level best to furnish a pitcher of Scurvy Cure.

Yum.
Or should I say 'yum'?
Will it help with Skwid's forgetting what to gibber, and with Ginger's prostration after her having the Punwich Horror revealed to her?

Posted July 1, 2008 8:44 AM by Serge

I'm surprised no one has so far mentioned this birdie in relation to this thread.

Posted July 1, 2008 8:49 AM by Fragano Ledgister

Can I ask questions about Tor books in an open thread? Well, I guess I can ask them. Will they be answered?

Anyway...How come the availability of US editions of Neal Asher's books published by Tor is so spotty? Amazon seems to be selling the UK hardback of Line War, though they are currently out of stock. I can't find any indication of a US edition on the Tor website (http://us.macmillan.com/TorForge.aspx). As far as I can tell, only the first and third (of five) books of the Cormac series are available in US editions. What's up? When will there be a US edition of Line War?

Posted July 1, 2008 9:18 AM by Nick

Alas, no Worldcon for me. New job and possibly a Pennsic run take its place. However, I am in the final mad throws of prep for CONvergence this week/end. 24 GoH, 22 repeating, including my favorite martian scientist.

A move may be coming up in my future. Anyone know what the fannish community in St. Louis is like?

Posted July 1, 2008 9:45 AM by Sisuile

2 weeks ago, my partner looked at me and informed me that we are going to Montreal for the 2009 Worldcon.

I am still happy about it, though I am sorry to miss Denver this year.

Posted July 1, 2008 9:45 AM by Nancy C. Mittens

Nancy C Mittens @ 60... Montreal? Duly noted.

Posted July 1, 2008 9:53 AM by Serge

Tania @ 35

Wait. There will be Mensa members there who will have trouble figuring out the elevators? Why does this make me think of a Gary Larson cartoon?

Posted July 1, 2008 10:11 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

I agree fervently about WALL-E. I hadn't really thought of it in connection with The Velveteen Rabbit, but that's exactly right. I was predisposed to like it going in (Pixar mechanical objects with personalities -- I've loved those since Luxo was just a snippet at animation festivals), but my roommate was only going along for the air conditioning -- except then it started with a show tune, and she was bouncing up and down in her seat with squee because she's a huge theater geek, and after that, she was hooked too. My 13-year-old daughter shared my predisposition.

There were the obligatory nods to Blade Runner, without being too heavy-handed; there was a Very Familiar Start-Up Noise which had us ALL bouncing in our seats; and the story line hooked us without provoking a lot of cynical eye-rolling, which doesn't happen so much any more with animated movies.

I'd go see it again.

Posted July 1, 2008 10:19 AM by Rikibeth

Errr. A bit late, but re #4, just to prevent any possible mishaps for people vacationing in Japan--111 is not the emergency # in Japan.
We have 110 for the Police, and 119 for Fire or Paramedics.
Play Safe!

Posted July 1, 2008 11:06 AM by JimR

Oh boy!!! Open thread!!!1!!!111!!!MCXI!!

Posted July 1, 2008 11:16 AM by Kip W

Diatryma @53: So what's your favorite pic at the Denver Art Museum? Mine are "The Warning Shadow" and "Dream of Arcadia," both on the American floor. Last time I tried to go there, I arrived too late. Maybe next decade.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:18 AM by Kip W

I'm hoping I can go to Denvention this year. I bought my membership at NASFic, voted for the Hugos, got a room at the Grand Hyatt but due to a death in the family that wasn't covered by bereavement leave at work, I don't have enough vacation days accumulated. If my boss will approve, I can borrow the days, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Since this is an open thread, I'd also like to mention, completely off the Denvention topic, that a donation site has been created to help author advocates who have been sued by a certain literary agent. I don't know how much more I should say here on ML - but if you want to donate you can either visit Absolute Write and click on the button in my signature ( if that link doesn't work because you're not registered - although I think it should - just look for posts by Dawno) or visit my sadly not up to date blog for the donation button in my sidebar.

Alternatively, just go to PayPal and donate to the email "authoradvocatedonations@gmail.com"

Posted July 1, 2008 11:25 AM by Dawno

I'm going to miss Worldcon again this year -- haven't made it to one since Boston in 2004, for want of money or vacation time or both. I'm liable to be retired before Montreal 2009, so vacation time won't be a problem, but it's too early to tell about the money.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:26 AM by Jim Henry

TNH @ #30: I haven't even seen Iron Man yet

FWIW: I am apparently the only person in the world who found _Iron Man_ boring, but I did. The only thing that I didn't see coming a mile off was that a character _wasn't_ revealed to have done something. And that's not even getting into some of the not-very-subtext.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:00 PM by Kate Nepveu

Scott @ 21

Oh, damn. I always liked him, and wary though I am at assigning character's attributes to actors, he always seemed a very warm and decent man. I first remember him as Scully's dad, and always smiled when he showed up in other shot-in-Canada movies/shows.

And *65*! So young!

Posted July 1, 2008 12:07 PM by sherrold

dlbowman76 @ 31:

I'm doing a straw poll of advice from fans (and or slans, or even flans) on the expat experience. I've been offered a plum of a job opportunity...in Munich. Sounds cool, but what about the books? The movies? The fan community? Advice and help from anglophones living in old Yurp would be massively appreciated...Vielen dank!

Munich is a lovely place in many respects, thought it does apparently have the highest cost of living of any German city.

Books: there are two or three English-language bookstores, at least one of which has a (small) SF/fantasy section, and one of the main German bookstores actually has a (smaller) English-language SF section next to its German-language SF section. Also worth noting is that you can order English-language books from the German division of amazon.com (amazon.de), and they don't charge for shipping. You can also order books from British web sites without paying customs fees. Ordering from US web sites is certainly possible (and getting cheaper and cheaper as the dollar keeps sinking relative to the euro...), though shipping costs are higher and you will (sometimes) have to pay customs fees. A nifty tool in this regard is bookfinder.com, which will calculate total costs for books, including shipping charges to whichever country you specify (though they won't attempt to estimate customs fees).

Movies: Germany is, alas, one of those countries that dubs foreign movies. Since Munich is a relatively large, cosmopolitan city, however, there are some theaters that show movies in "original version" (with subtitles in German at some theaters, without subtitles at others). So it's possible to catch most major movies -- and some more obscure ones -- in English, though they may not stick around. I saw Iron Man when it played here, and I certainly expect to see Wall-E when it gets around to opening here....

There's also an annual "Fantasy Film Festival" which hits several cities in Germany, Munich included.

The only general problem related to movies that I can think of is non-English-language films, which will usually not have English subtitles, not even in the DVD version.[*] For the latter, you'd need to order a DVD from the UK or the US.)

Fan community: I'm afraid I've never been very directly involved in the fan community, so I don't know how to evaluate it for you. Munich does have two universities and a bewildering array of physics-related research institutes (including the one I work at), so you've certainly got the potential community there.

[*] Imagine the fun my friend and I had when we went to see David Lynch's Inland Empire and discovered that roughly a quarter of the film was in Polish. (Though I rather doubt the film would have made any more sense if we had been able to keep up with the German subtitles.)

Posted July 1, 2008 12:11 PM by Peter Erwin

sherrold #70: wary though I am at assigning character's attributes to actors

I can't stand to watch anything with Jason Alexander because Philip Stuckey was mean to Vivian Ward in Pretty Woman.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:28 PM by Earl Cooley III

Actor Don S Davis, aka Hammond of Texas, aka Dana Scully's dad, apparently passed away today.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:31 PM by Serge

Skwid, on the hydration, most convention centers have water coolers hanging around, or should. You just have to remember to use them.

Oh, this con is going to be so frustrating on some levels because I'll be toting around the Dude and who knows how he's going to behave.

P.S. Don't forget that alcohol hits you faster and harder at altitude.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:39 PM by B. Durbin

Just wanted to thank--was it Patrick?--for recommending the "1491" book. Read it recently and found it fascinating. Thanks!

Posted July 1, 2008 12:41 PM by BuffySquirrel

John Mark Ockerbloom @ 24: That is a nicer scan, especially that it has the endpapers and covers. Thanks.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:46 PM by Ralph Giles

Michael Roberts @ 32: Inconceivable. I am aware of all internet traditions.

(Actually, I hadn't seen that and it made me giggle. Thank you.)

Today I am having an odd remix of Boom-de-ah-da and O Canada playing in my head. Happy Canada Day, y'all.

Posted July 1, 2008 12:47 PM by Caroline

I'd like to second the thanks to Patrick for Sidelighting the explanation of the xkcd strip for us non-TV-watchers (well, that's not strictly true - when I am in a hotel, I hoover up Mythbusters episodes like nobody's business, but I don't get a lot of Discovery Channel otherwise). Both the strip and the commercial make me happy - not just that I live in a world with such cool stuff in it, but that I live in a world where many other people appreciate the cool stuff.

Posted July 1, 2008 1:32 PM by debcha

No Denvention for us. It is Unfortunately Timed in relation to the Jewish calendar, alas. Such things happen. However, Anticipation (which happens to be on similar dates in 2009) is very well placed indeed.

(It is interesting that there are two Worldcons in a row in early August. Is this a function of availability of function space?)

Posted July 1, 2008 1:53 PM by Debra Fran Baker

the Velveteen Robot?

Posted July 1, 2008 2:19 PM by Erik Nelson

This is kind of an odd request, but I need some old-style WordPerfect documents for a test I'm running, and we only have access to X4. While we can save as older version from X4, we have discovered from other software that save-as versions are often not the same as native.

There appears to be three main types of files, 4.2, 5.1, (possibly 5.2 as well) and 6 on, but I could use files from any version.

Does anyone have some old documents that are sufficiently impersonal (directions or something) that they don't mind them being tossed into a company directory for QA tests? My email is tavella@gmail.com.

Posted July 1, 2008 2:34 PM by tavella

JimR #64: Damn! Sorry I messed that up.

To reiterate, 111 is NOT the emergency number in Japan.

Posted July 1, 2008 2:38 PM by albatross

Re: The Center Fetish

The Center Cannot Hold.
There ain't nobody in the middle of the road but a bunch of dead armadillos, slouching towards Bethlehem to be born.

Posted July 1, 2008 2:53 PM by Erik Nelson

#80: Lean over here.

Little closer.

Yeah. Right there.

*SMACK!*

Posted July 1, 2008 3:01 PM by Stefan Jones

Kip W at 66-- I burst out laughing when I saw the Coyote tapdancing "Shuffle Off to Buffalo" painting, somewhere in the Native American section. I love the... "Soliloquy: Life's Fragile Fictions" by Moyo Ogundipe, and if I could find a print that had the right colors, I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Next time I see my cousin in Denver, I may well ask him to take a few really good pictures of it... and maybe bring his laptop to be sure the pictures have the right colors. There's a big map-of-words in the contemporary art section that my friends and I just stood reading aloud. We loved the bubble game and the lights, and made fun of each other for walking into sudden walls.

It was an interesting day in terms of art classifications-- okay, so there's art, meaning Western art-meant-as-art. Then there's archaeology art, which is things which are artsy but not Art-- nice pots, carvings, et cetera. This bleeds into really nice furniture and cabinets, jewelry, things like that.

But then... Native American art. Which is everything from blankets made of feathers to puppets to tapdancing Coyote to saddles full of embroidery. African art is the gorgeous Ogundipe hung next to tribal masks.

I really wish I had written down whether or not the 'modern art' section had a geographical note. 'Modern European/White North American' would not make me as wary and annoyed as simply 'Contemporary Art'-- because where do the extant, currently-working artists who happen to fit two galleries go? Does an artist being Nigerian mean that his work will always go into the African Art wing, and never into the Modern Art? It has two contexts.

This is a weird extension of genre, but art isn't books. You can shelve Nalo Hopkinson in SF, African-American Literature, Fiction, Women's Studies, anywhere you like, all at once. You can't hang a painting on two walls.

It kind of makes me want to design an art museum like a starfish, oldest at the outside, reflecting how artistic traditions began isolated, but have mingled and continue to do so as it became possible.

You have any favorites?

Posted July 1, 2008 3:02 PM by Diatryma

tavella @ 81: I have sent you something that may be old enough for your purpose. I can't even open it anymore.

Posted July 1, 2008 4:07 PM by Ginger

I have a dilemma for which I can't believe I didn't think of this place sooner. (delurking, Hi!)

While in high school (early 90s), we read a short story which kinda stuck with me-- except for that whole title and author thing. It took place in a society where every person was born with 3 chances and every time you were a victim (of anything), one of your chances got used up. I remember the main character was female and there was a bit about how she doubted that some neighbor kid (I think?) was unlikely to live very long since he'd already used one of his chances so young. Some classmate slapped him, or something.

I think the main plot of the story was someone from another complex (who might have been an unintroduced friend-of-a-friend or something), who was eager to see an execution since they were pretty rare and there was one scheduled for Main Character's complex/building/whatever. I vaguely remember this being risky for MC as well as the other woman, but I don't know for sure. Anyway, the story ended with the execution, with the audience watching in rapt silence as the executioner stalked the condemned around a giant stage for a while and then slit her throat or something.

I know we read "Harrison Bergeron" at about the same time, but it was out of an anthology so probably not also by Vonnegut. I hope one of you lovely and well-read souls can end my misery. I really want to reread it, and then maybe toss it at victim-blamers.

Posted July 1, 2008 5:50 PM by DCGelfling

WALL*E has got some of the Rad Right in an uproar.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/07/01/right-wing-hates-wall-e/

Right Wingnuts don't like WALL*E

Posted July 1, 2008 6:25 PM by Steve C.

Here's a cooking question for the open thread:

I've been making a version of this recipe. (The font color/background choices are unfortunate there, sorry.) I have problems with step 2 every time. Step 2 says: "Heat the curry paste and oil in a large skillet over medium to medium-high heat. Cook the curry paste, mashing it and mixing it with the oil until well mixed and bubbling."

I can't figure out how to do that without it popping and spattering all over my hands (ow!) and the stovetop. Is there a trick to it, or should I just invest in a really long spoon and plan to clean the stovetop every time?

Posted July 1, 2008 7:01 PM by R. M. Koske

#88, Steve C. -

Glenn Beck: I can’t wait to teach my kids how we’ve destroyed the Earth. … Pixar is teaching. I can’t wait. You know if your kid has ever come home and said, “Dad, how come we use so much styrofoam,” oh, this is the movie for you.

I don't actually see this one as a bad thing. Beck (whoever that is) may think so, but it sounds like praise to *this* ecobaby. Okay, "Teach my kids how we've destroyed the Earth" is unbearably negative. But teach them what we're doing wrong so we can STOP? Oh yes.

Pollowitz just makes me laugh. I hope his campaign to boycott all the tie-in junk is
very successful.

Maybe I should be worried that these people will create enough of a noise that Disney and Pixar will listen, but mostly my reaction is, "Heh. Idiots."

Posted July 1, 2008 7:11 PM by R. M. Koske

RM Koske @ #89, "invest in a really long spoon"

Well, you know, sup with the devil and all that.

Posted July 1, 2008 7:13 PM by Linkmeister

R.M. Koske #89:
I'm afraid the popping & splattering is part of the deal. It's because the curry paste has water in it that it spatters. A long spoon (or similar) helps. I also find that constant stirring helps to reduce the spatters.

In general, for best results, curry pastes should be cooked in oils until fragrant (the spices cooked enough to release aromas). If you can't smell it, it hasn't been cooked long enough.

Posted July 1, 2008 7:25 PM by Soon Lee

Diatryma @85 - was it you or someone else who a few months ago was talking about museums and that presenting things by (say) date, but mixing country/tradition or presenting by medium but mixing dates wasn't the best way? Becuase I had the idea that you could organise your museum with an x-axis for time, a y-axis for geographical area and the z-axis for medium (so we might have, say, fabrics in the basement, paintings on the ground floor, ceramics on the first floor* etc.). This would be fantastic for comparing different places at the same times (an vice versa), influence of one medium on another etc. It's also unworkable as some cells have more and better examples than others, and if there's a museum with too much display space and not enough exhibits I've yet to hear of it. Still, I'd like to design a museum the way I'd design the database to catalogue it (although I'd probably run out of dimensions).

R M Koske @89 I'd invest in the long soon (and an aloe vera plant) and clean the stovetop everytime, but that's generally how I cook. On the other hand, despite what it says I'd probably cook it in a casserole dish which would reduce splatter; that's because I was given a cast iron Le Creuset when I was 19 and use it at every opportunity.

* if you come from a tradition where the ground floor is the first floor, forgive me

Posted July 1, 2008 7:32 PM by Neil Willcox

Do we all know about the Robot Hall of Fame?

Posted July 1, 2008 7:34 PM by Linkmeister

#88: Heh. I predicted that would happen on a post on Whitechapel. You just KNOW that James Lileks is going to write a tut-tutting review wondering where Pixar went wrong.

Posted July 1, 2008 7:52 PM by Stefan Jones

BB's complaints against Wikimedia were dismissed in NJ State Court today, all but one with prejudice.

Posted July 1, 2008 7:53 PM by Dave Kuzminski

#90: Beck (whoever that is)

Glenn Beck is yet another of the AM Radio right-wing ranters.

Posted July 1, 2008 7:58 PM by James D. Macdonald

Neil, that might have been me, but I don't remember it. I'd wonder how to do regions at all-- east to west? Change the organization of one axis as you move along the other to reflect different trade routes?

I think my ideal museum is huge, almost-perfectly organized (meaning that there's still room for a database conversation) and is populated by lots of friends who know things that aren't on the placards and wander around geeking out. Small games, do-it-yourself bits, and interesting architecture make everything better, too.

Posted July 1, 2008 8:00 PM by Diatryma

Bring the Camelbak, Skwid - you'll fit right in. All the cool kids in the high country are wearin' 'em!

Saw Iron Man and adored it. Will be seeing Wall-E on Saturday. Will be reading Steve C.'s link after that.

R. M. Koske @90: I don't actually see this one as a bad thing. Beck (whoever that is) may think so, but it sounds like praise to *this* ecobaby. Okay, "Teach my kids how we've destroyed the Earth" is unbearably negative. But teach them what we're doing wrong so we can STOP? Oh yes.

"We'll tell our children's children why
We grew so tall, and reached so high
We left our footprints in the Earth
And punched a hole right through the sky"
-Marillion, "Season's End" (Pop music warnings about global warming in the '80s? Why yes!)

Posted July 1, 2008 8:55 PM by Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little

Stoopid commercial: "Are you exposed to toxins from the food, water, and air we breathe?"

If you breathe food and water, you have worse problems. Just moving that 'the' would fix it.

Posted July 1, 2008 9:18 PM by Xopher

"[The Christian right] is so out of control that even the Satanists are saying 'All right, you guys are being really mean.'"

--Margaret Cho

Posted July 1, 2008 9:55 PM by Xopher

#92, Soon Lee -

Okay. I thought as much, but it was worth asking. Thanks!

#97, James D. Macdonald -

That's about what I expected.

Posted July 1, 2008 10:00 PM by R. M. Koske

Xopher, that Margaret Cho quote entertains me, since the only Satanists I know are the sort to politely ask the audience to please stop crowd surfing, because security's getting overworked in the heat and the girls in the front are getting kicked in the head, so everyone cool it and we'll all have a better time, huh?

The really impressive part is, it worked.

Posted July 1, 2008 10:08 PM by Rikibeth

AKICIF (or at least AKICIML?)

Later this month, I'm going to Tales of the Cocktail, a bartending convention, with a focus on liquors and mixed drinks: history and how-to. [My husband tends bar; I'm going largely because it sounds like a lot of fun]

Problem is, I have very low alcohol tolerance, and don't want to make myself sick and thus miss out on panels (or worse).

Any tips on things I can do to help get thru the tastings?

I was thinking it would be helpful to bring along some snack foods, to avoid drinking on an empty stomach, but any specific foods to gravitate towards or avoid (proteins, carbs, etc)?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Posted July 1, 2008 10:34 PM by Lis Riba

I have heard that high fat foods slow alcohol absorption, but I am not an expert.

Were I doing this myself, with low alcohol tolerance AND my own poor sugar metabolism, I'd be going for high protein rather than high carb snacks, because I know that alcohol and crashing blood sugar heterodyne for me. Maybe there's a reason besides the high salt content that peanuts are a traditional bar snack.

Bringing bottled water and drinking more water than you do alcohol will help to keep you hydrated and forestall hangovers.

Other than that... I guess I'd be trying to taste in little sips, not full drinks or even large mouthfuls.

Posted July 1, 2008 10:46 PM by Rikibeth

Lis Riba #104:
Having food helps, though I wouldn't know what sort to recommend. My alcohol consumption usually goes with food. Drinking lots of water is also a good thing - so you don't get dehydrated.

With winetastings, I'd spit the wine out* after tasting. Failing that, you could reduce alcohol intake by either getting you husband to pour you a smaller portion, or alternatively, don't feel obliged to finish every single drink.

*But not if it's a really good wine. Spitting is standard practice at formal winetastings, but 'civilians' tend to prefer to swallow.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:00 PM by Soon Lee

Ugh, typo.

"your husband."

Posted July 1, 2008 11:02 PM by Soon Lee

Lis Riba @104: Another low-alcohol-tolerance person here. Like Rikibeth, I recommend high-protein foods, although keep some complex carbs in the mix. Definitely eat (before you start drinking) and keep eating. Drink slow and keep drinking water in between.

I don't know how liquor/mixed drink tasting works -- is it Done to spit? If not, sip just enough to taste, and don't be ashamed to leave some behind (or donate it to someone else).

Finally, avoid carbonated beverages as much as possible, since carbonation tends to speed alcohol absorption.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:07 PM by Caroline

Yes Rikibeth, I know. Cho was using a stereotype to make a point. Not too many people actually know Satanists personally.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:19 PM by Xopher

Xopher, that's why it entertained me so much -- the popular stereotype (which makes the joke funny one way) vs. my actual experience (which makes it funny in yet another way).

Sometimes I think this IS Bizzarro World.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:30 PM by Rikibeth

Steve, #88: Wow. They sound like a bunch of 3-year-olds kicking their heels and holding their breath until they turn blue.

Xopher, #101: It's not just the Satanists. And look who's running that website mentioned in the article!

Posted July 1, 2008 11:46 PM by Lee

I have wanted with a great wanting want to go to a Real Live Con!! since I first read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon stories in smelly, ink-smeared back issues of Analog from the 25-cent rack at the library. I hate you all.

Hey, apropos of completely nothing, I was wondering about sociopathy. M. Scott Peck tells a story about two clients on Guam, both deathly afraid of snakes, which is a bad thing to be on Guam because it basically ends your life. One client said she knew she had a problem and needed to change, and that was a neurosis that Peck could treat. The other ranted about the lazy natives who wouldn't get rid of the snakes and the sloppy military contractors who wouldn't build houses that kept out snakes and blah blah blah, and that was a personality disorder that he couldn't treat.

So: Have there ever been any self-aware sociopaths? People who are stunned to realize that they fit the definition of "sociopath," that there really is a hidden connection between speech and action that is clear to everyone BUT them, that when people behave as if their consciences prick them they are being neither duplicitous nor dupes, that their emotional landscape is lacking some landmarks, etc.? And if so . . . is there any therapy that can help a willing sociopath learn how to operate in socially acceptable ways?

I happened to be talking with someone online who insisted that he was a diagnosed sociopath and that he was struggling hard to change, and ever since then I've wondered.

Posted July 1, 2008 11:51 PM by Jenny Islander

Ralph Giles: And that quotation... was the 2nd Court of Appeals "Snarking", in a big way.

The Chicago Tribune article has a serge-worthy headline. Court ruling poetic justice for detainee

The ML-ish party for Canada Day was great fun. Faces to names. David: I did the same thing... scheduled the one free day we had to go... for the wrong day. It was greatly depressing.

I will not be at Denvention. I will be at Montreal if I have to beg money and hop freight trains.

Tavella @ 81: I might have access to some older versions of WP.

Jim: I wish Beck was limited to Radio, but some one of the cable networks has given him a chunk of mid-day time.

Lis: Take sips. Eat something between sips. Fats slow absorbtion. You still get as affected, but it takes longer. Chocolate is good, if you don't feel like packing a bunch of sausage/bacon.

Drink Water, or juices to prevent hangovers.

Posted July 2, 2008 12:15 AM by Terry Karney

The way my life feels these days, if the Worldcon was held in Scunthorpe I doubt I'd be able to get away for long enough to have any fun.

And there are too many topics floating around blogs that I don't want to touch with the proverbial 10-foot pole.

Oh well. I guess it's back to making weird CGI porn.

(Humanoid, sentient, and willing: the rest is commentary.)

Posted July 2, 2008 1:48 AM by Dave Bell

Jenny @ #112:

Personality disorders - and that is what "sociopathy" is, officially labeled "antisocial personality disorder" - are extremely difficult to change. They're deeply integrated into a person's character. They used to be considered nearly untreatable, but there are some therapies now which seem to make headway.

Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) is considered the therapy of choice for borderline personality disorder; I don't know whether it's also applied to treat antisocial personality disorder. Some psychologists seem to think the latter is pretty much untreatable, but I don't know that that's the official line.

I have some indication that DBT is effective on personality disorders. Our foster daughter ranks very high on test scales for both borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder, along with a bunch of other problems like mood disorders, possibly bipolar. Thankfully, we did not write her off. The last six months of DBT has seemed to make a big difference. She still has a tendency to be very self centered and think as though the world revolves around her, to blow off thing that's not immediately appealing, and to see everything as absolute good/bad - but now she's doing these in a way closer to how an average teenager can be like that. She is definitely less manipulative and more willing to engage honestly than before. (Note this is following hospitalization and nearly two years of other therapy. She turned out to be a much more troubled kid than we had any idea when we took her in.)

Some of that may be simply that we had the faith to stick with her even when we didn't want to, and to agree to take her back in when she was done with the various residential and group-home treatment programs, even after 18.

I am a bit suspicious of M. Scott Peck in general; some of what he writes rings very true, but at other times he seems prepared to see the Hand of Satan in ordinary human bad behavior, and I wonder how much that clouds his observation and interpretation.

P.S. I'm not a psychologist, I only play one on the Internet.

Posted July 2, 2008 1:54 AM by Clifton Royston

Wow, Dave, you're getting better and better at that stuff. I admire the way that's posed, lit, and framed, as well as the rendering.

Posted July 2, 2008 1:56 AM by Clifton Royston

Terry Karney @ #113, the TV channel which carries Glenn Beck is CNN's Headline News. I have yet to figure out how a network which takes itself as seriously as CNN does could put two radical right-wingers like Nancy Grace and Glenn Beck on its headline service.

For that matter, why are there two full-length talk/rant programs on what's billed as a Headline News Service in the first place? Never have figured out that logic either.

Posted July 2, 2008 2:07 AM by Linkmeister

BBC News 24 shows various non-live-news programs.

Even with a lot of the studio set being virtual, these days, I suppose they need some time to sweep the floor and such.

Posted July 2, 2008 2:28 AM by Dave Bell

The RIAA is at it again.

I get the impression that they're grabbing for as much as they can get now, in the anticipation of having a less greed-oriented administration to deal with after the election. Sort of like the oil companies.

Posted July 2, 2008 4:37 AM by Lee

Well, saw the movie "Wanted" staring Angelina Jolie last night. Probably give it a 7.0 on the scale, which translates into a solid matinee.

I think it was slightly better than IronMan, and I gave IronMan a 7.5. Hm. But if I go 7.6, it's an evening price. Think I might have to drop IronMan to 7.0.

Didn't take a counter with me to figure out the warpr0n score, but it's probably on par with V for Vendetta. The main difference is the movies infatuation with showing bullets go through people in super slow motion. But the body count is probably on par with V for Vendetta, so, probably around the same score.

I'll have to go through the DVD to tally the full score though.

Posted July 2, 2008 7:14 AM by Greg London

I wonder how much the RIAA members want for a live performance by a musical group not under contract to any RIAA member?

Rare? Maybe not.

Posted July 2, 2008 7:18 AM by Dave Bell

I haven't read it, but Michael Wood's The Story of India is the companion book to last year's BBC2 series marking the 60th anniversary of India's independence, which I did see. Amazon.com doesn't have any customer reviews, but amazon.co.uk does.

Posted July 2, 2008 7:56 AM by Del

Happy Birthday, Sajia!!!

Posted July 2, 2008 9:37 AM by Serge

I saw Wanted this past weekend, Greg, and enjoyed it. I would agree with your 7.0 rating, but would give Iron Man an 8.5 or so, so obviously our opinions differ on some things.

Also, I think you're probably neglecting gur cnffratref bs 4 be 5 pbzzhgre genva pnef from your bodycount tally, which I suspect the Loom of Fate did not...

Posted July 2, 2008 10:33 AM by Skwid

Happy Birthday, Saija -- a little sumpin is on your LJ.

Love, C.

Posted July 2, 2008 11:33 AM by Constance Ash

I'm teaching summer school, and the following, ahem, gem turned up in an essay comparing the movement for equal rights for gays and lesbians to the movements for civil rights for women and ethnic/racial minorities: "Thus this group has attempted to raise pubic interest on the idea of constitutional protection to sexual minorities as well as several other topics but seemingly is closely correlated to some of the same principles currently effecting minorities in the United States as well."

Posted July 2, 2008 11:57 AM by Fragano Ledgister

"Not too many people actually know Satanists personally."

Strangely enough, I do... former Satanist, actually.

I have a lot of strange friends.

Posted July 2, 2008 11:58 AM by B. Durbin

Fragano, does the writer of that think they're graded primarily on wordcount?

Posted July 2, 2008 12:22 PM by P J Evans

Fragano@ 126: Er, I'd be inclined to think they wanted to raise something else besides "pubic interest", but maybe that's just me.

Posted July 2, 2008 12:30 PM by Ginger

P J Evans: #128: Quite possibly. The essay as a whole had a strong odour of the lamp. However, she was trying to make an argument. That, at least, was good.

Posted July 2, 2008 12:47 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Ginger #129: Me too.

Posted July 2, 2008 12:48 PM by Fragano Ledgister

B. Durbin @ 127, me too. I more or less understand it as Objectivism taken to more of an extreme, and called Satanism just to mess with people.

In other satanist news, we have a real live satanic panic going on. That story, from my hometown newspaper, is a triumph of the bizarre. Rape and assault are serious charges, but -- satanic rituals? Really?

Posted July 2, 2008 1:00 PM by Caroline

It's probably not a good idea to be active in politics if you indulge in extreme sexual kinks. And that could easily be the truth behind the story.

See, as an example from the British legal system, the "Operation Spanner" case. Essentially, in English law there are precedents for the idea that you cannot lawfully consent to some activities.

And, having said that, it could easily be as blatantly criminal as the story implies.

But the odd thing is that the Satanic element, if it is truly present, makes more sense as sexual role-play.

Really, it's far too early to say, but my five cents is teetering towards it being something weird that went wrong, rather than it being deliberate criminal abuse.

Posted July 2, 2008 1:29 PM by Dave Bell

In clarity of noon the forest glows,
we listen as the leaves begin to fall
and see in proper place a single rose.

We got our answer rightly on the nose:
the world, we found out now, is very small,
in clarity of noon the forest glows.

There is no reason for the gate to close,
you note the light upon the garden wall
and see in proper place a single rose.

Praise of the moment would seem grandiose,
there is so much that we have to recall;
in clarity of noon the forest glows.

This is no time for slumber or repose,
you have to set things up within the hall
and see in proper place a single rose.

Now is the time for one who thinks he knows
the meaning of the days when they are tall;
in clarity of noon the forest glows;
and see! in proper place, a single rose.

Posted July 2, 2008 5:08 PM by Fragano Ledgister

Open Thread question: why was there such a surge of interest in the movie V for Vendetta last summer?

Reason I'm asking: My partner was watching it on DVD, and wondered whether it had come out pre-2000. I said no, it was quite recent, within the last couple of years. He said absolutely not. We looked it up on IMDB, and apparently it came out in 2005.

But... I remember the huge fuss about it roughly a year ago! We had a long discussion here, which was the genesis of Greg's warp0rn scale, and half of my friendslist on LJ was suddenly using V icons. So what happened last year to stir it up again? Was that when the DVD came out, or what?

Posted July 2, 2008 7:31 PM by Lee

#135: Dunno. Perhaps an adaptation of another film came out which sparked a parallel discussion?

I remember a discussion about torture somehow linked to a long side-discussion about "V". Maybe that was it?

Posted July 2, 2008 7:43 PM by Stefan Jones

#135 - a quick glance suggests that the big V for Vendetta discussion was on the November 5th Post Penny for the Guy.

Posted July 2, 2008 8:01 PM by Neil Willcox

Re-reading my post to Jenny, I see that I mostly went off on a huge tangent with little bearing on what she asked about. So, uhh... sorry.

Posted July 2, 2008 8:30 PM by Clifton Royston

I rapped this to Shiva today, who was not impressed. Fortunately, we don't have the parts for this.

Posted July 2, 2008 10:08 PM by Marilee

Fragano re: "pubic interest": I remember taking a sociology class in college where we were discussing something about crime and punishment, and one student asked a question about "penile law," and I could just tell that she knew to be careful not to say the wrong thing, which is to say exactly what she was saying.

This was at NYU, by the way.

Posted July 2, 2008 11:38 PM by Chris Quinones

And today's paper shows that Dave Bell @133 got it in one. Still no evidence on criminality or not, but apparently Satan was not involved.

Including bonus interview with the actual Church of Satan!

Posted July 3, 2008 8:10 AM by Caroline

Fragano @ 126... Maybe your student was feeling crotchety.

Posted July 3, 2008 8:26 AM by Serge

Chris Quinones #140: *Snort*. In grad school, at UCSD, one of my colleagues in a seminar circulated a paper she hadn't properly proofread which referred to a 'horny problem'. This wasn't as bad as the paper in which a fellow student (now one of the leading figures in the area of Latin American studies) in pressing an analogy announced that the angles of a triangle added up to 360 degrees, causing me, the non-mathematician*, to have to point out to him, that this wasn't the case in Euclidean geometry.

* I and the horny problem student were the B+ students in stats.

Posted July 3, 2008 8:40 AM by Fragano Ledgister

Serge #142: Perhaps, or feeling swell.

Posted July 3, 2008 8:44 AM by Fragano Ledgister

Fragano... I also notice that your student referred to "...some of the same principles currently effecti