This reminds me of what happened in Seattle. The peaceful protesters were overshadowed by the violent ones, who weren't even from town, and the police cracked down on everyone. People who lived and worked in Seattle (like myself) wrongly blamed the protesters at first. But it wasn't the majority.

Like you say, who are these people?

Posted September 3, 2008 6:24 PM by Laura G

Elise,

thank you for being more coherent about all this than I am capable of being right now.

Remember when this story was making the rounds?

Posted September 3, 2008 6:38 PM by Ambar

Detail observation of first linked picture which may or may not be at all helpful:

His hair looks bleached, but could possibly be naturally that blond. I don't see dark eyebrows.

The bandana looks like one you can buy at Hot Topic.

The backpack appears to have "4:20" written on it in silver pen -- slang for smoking marijuana. There's something else written under it but it's too small and indistinct for me to read.

However, in my experience, people who doodle on their backpacks tend to doodle all over them, and he hasn't. May mean nothing, may mean someone trying to look like an anarchist and not quite doing it, dunno, just putting it out there.

Likewise, the backpack appears to have a suede bottom panel. While this is a common design for backpacks, a lot of the hardcore punk anarchist protester types I know are pretty strict vegans and wouldn't use a leather bottomed backpack. Also inconclusive.

Definitely doing the young male thing of underwear sticking up over pants waistband, probably not just from the movement involved, because the pants are belted with underwear showing.

Belt, with two rows of pyramid studs, appears slightly too big for him. Underside of belt tongue looks like leather, but I could be wrong, and synthetic versions of those belts are widely available.

Other than that, I have nothing to contribute.

Posted September 3, 2008 6:40 PM by Rikibeth

Good thinking. If enough images are gathered on the web, they can be searched by many people. Um...security would be needed. No resources to contribute, though, except perhaps some time.

Dare we hope that the Democratic Party would provide some help?

Posted September 3, 2008 6:49 PM by Randolph

The 4:20 bit on the cheap backpack (is that an Eastpak?) also struck me as a bit odd, but then again it might be the kind of item someone had lying around as a throwaway, so doesn't necessarily mean anything...

Posted September 3, 2008 6:54 PM by Brennen

Are they agents provocateurs, sent in undercover to do something bad and give authorities a reason to gas everybody else?

This is my guess. My sister was jailed last year at the Critical Mass "riot" that the Minneapolis police used to practice their suppression tactics ahead of the RNC. That was provoked by bicycle riders in disguise who'd never been seen at a mass before, and then the police responded with overwhelming force and in sufficient numbers to make it obvious that they were prepared for and expecting a disturbance from a usually peaceful group.

Posted September 3, 2008 6:55 PM by Darth Paradox

Here is an account of the arrest and mistreatment of my friend's brother, a young Minneapolis resident who was only trying to attend a concert. You might want to read the earlier post in Blacksquirrel's blog as well, for context. This happened on September 1-2.

I have never met her family but I have met her; she's a very quiet, honest, gentle person, and I expect her brother is too. For what it's worth I can vouch that this is an honest account.

So that's one of those arrested who is not a violent protester - nor a protester at all.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:07 PM by Lola Raincoat

Hanne Blank's open letter. "I encourage those of you whose local newspapers or TV news outlets are similarly not covering the frightening and extremely violating events going on around the Republican National Convention in St. Paul to write a similar letter to the relevant editors."

Posted September 3, 2008 7:20 PM by Ambar

I saw the article in the Star-Tribune which stated that the FBI had infiltrated peace groups and was reminded of COINTELPRO, which as I recall was one of the abuses the Church hearings uncovered and legislated against.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:24 PM by Linkmeister

I remember when I was a kid in the 1960s my dad telling me about marching in peace marches and that there was a certain group of people who would come out of nowhere and run to the front of the peace march and start smashing windows, and that those were the people who would get their pictures in the paper. My husband David talks about a similar moment: of attending demonstrations in the 60s at Columbia University in which speakers said things like "The issues are not the issues; the issue is revolution." That scared the hell out of him and he stopped going.

Perhaps the windowsmashers are the more disaffected than thou; or maybe they like getting on CNN.

But at this point, I who would never smash a store window am pretty darned disaffected. I am sick to death of the paranoia economy in which being hassled and scrutinized every moment is an amenity that we all pay for. So it's a little hard to envision someone that much more sincerely disaffected who needs to trash the city.

Maybe some people have the need to play chicken with they paranoia economy; perhaps they are its flip side, maybe they are what happens when you grow up in a gated community.

Or maybe they are just sociopaths out for a good time. But what is indeed hard to understand is how someone that disaffected would still be in the US when the Candadian border is so close.

Be friendly to strangers. In 2008, that is one of the most revolutionary of acts.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:29 PM by Kathryn Cramer

Emptywheel over at Firedoglake had some info back in May about Minneapolis' Joint Terrorist Task Force recruiting people to infiltrate peace groups; I'll try to point people there over here to help.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:34 PM by Redshift

#11: Ah. We have met the enemy and he is U.S. Eeek.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:40 PM by Kathryn Cramer

I know Jason myself. He's part of the Pagan Cluster, as are the folks who were driving the Permaculture bus that was seized, Elliot Hughes (also badly beaten), and Riyanna.

I've been in actions with the Cluster on several occasions. We do non-violent direct action, which includes civil disobedience as well as the bioremediation in New Orleans that Ambar mentions

The police don't need excuses to "use tear gas and pepper spray and concussion grenades". Jason was tasered seven times while lying unresisting in the street, then beaten; Elliot was pulled from his bike, beaten in the street so badly he coughed blood all night, and then tasered and beaten again in jail.

The latest I've heard is this:

UPDATE: Hi folks--not so much action today, but lots of really bad stuff is happening in the jail.

We're asking people to continue to call three people:

Mayor Chris Coleman 651-266-8510

Sheriff Bob Fletcher 651-266-9333

Ramsey County Chief Judge Gearin 651-266-8266

Head of the Ramsey County Jail: Ryan O'Neill 651-266-9350

On the good side, some progress is being made toward getting the bus back. Update on all that later. Thanks for all the calls and support, Starhawk

Posted September 3, 2008 7:46 PM by Yarrow

Lola @7:

This DailyKos poster seems to have been caught in the same sweep as blacksquirrel's brother, but was let go.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:48 PM by Doctor Science

Duh. Infiltrators. Surely I was the most paranoid? But it has happened over and over, that agent provocateur.

A resident, on her A View From A Broad blog says today she spotted Blackwater mercs hanging out.

There's nothing to stop anybody from adopting the outfit, weapons and attitude who isn't affiliated with any of the swats, militias, cops, Guard etc. and calling themselves and doing whatever.

Reports are that you can't PEE without some armed guy telling you to move. This was on Rachel Maddow's show tonight. A journalist, in the men's room, and a guard told him he couldn't stand there. He says you can't go anywhere without some armed goon telling you "You can't stand there. Move."

Love, C.

Posted September 3, 2008 7:51 PM by Constance

Dr. Science @ 14, thanks, I'll pass that along to Black Squirrel (unless someone else already has ...)

Posted September 3, 2008 8:05 PM by Lola Raincoat

TwinCities Indymedia has this up:

In what appears to be the first use of criminal charges under the 2002 Minnesota version of the Federal Patriot Act, Ramsey County Prosecutors have formally charged 8 alleged leaders of the RNC Welcoming Committee with Conspiracy to Riot in Furtherance of Terrorism. Monica Bicking, Eryn Trimmer, Luce Guillen Givins, Erik Oseland, Nathanael Secor, Robert Czernik, Garrett Fitzgerald, and Max Spector, face up to 7 1/2 years in prison under the terrorism enhancement charge which allows for a 50% increase in the maximum penalty.

Affidavits released by law enforcement which were filed in support of the search warrants used in raids over the weekend, and used to support probable cause for the arrest warrants, are based on paid, confidential informants who infiltrated the RNCWC on behalf of law enforcement. They allege that members of the group sought to kidnap delegates to the RNC, assault police officers with firebombs and explosives, and sabotage airports in St. Paul. Evidence released to date does not corroborate these allegations with physical evidence or provide any other evidence for these allegations than the claims of the informants.

Trouble is, it's not bylined. I can understand a desire for anonymity, but it reduces credibility.

Posted September 3, 2008 8:10 PM by Linkmeister

Lola: Oh, I already did -- my post at DailyKos was largely quoting from her LJ reports.

Oh, guess what. Taxpayers off the hook for GOP convention lawsuits.

The deal required the Republican Party's host committee to buy insurance covering up to $10 million in damages and unlimited legal costs for law enforcement officials accused of brutality, violating civil rights and other misconduct.

Posted September 3, 2008 8:12 PM by Doctor Science

#15: Ginmar's not just a resident; she's an Iraq war vet and presumably knows from personal experience there what Blackwater goons look like.

Posted September 3, 2008 8:12 PM by Jon Meltzer

It looks like the guy in the photo has something rectangular strapped to his left arm, under the sleeve. Also given the extreme pallor of his skin, I think the hair colour is probably natural.

Posted September 3, 2008 8:16 PM by Sarah

In the early 1960s, the Vault in Boston apparently PAID people to vandalize Roxbury and Dorchester in the vicinity of the homes of elderly Jews and beat up elderly Jews, in a successful terror campaign to force the Jews to sell their multifamily homes and move to single family homes in Brookline or West Roxbury (a part of Boston adjacent to the town of Brookline)or elsewhere, so that the houses could be sold to naive folks of dark skin color moving mostly up from down South, who didn't have the continuing income for the most part to pay the mortgage and taxes and who would then default on the house and the banks would get to resell to someone else, collecting fees each time....

Disclaimer: I am not a disinterested party, my maternal grandfather and my elder uncle who never married, and my oldest aunt and her husband were all living in a triple decker owned by my grandfather in Dorchester and at the urgings of the rest of the family sold and moved out.

Posted September 3, 2008 8:19 PM by Paula Lieberman

Manufactured incidents?
People willing to spend time in jail, perhaps, in return for sinecures? (That sort of thing is not unheard of in rumor mills, with allegations of there having been people in corporate America who were the token fall guys for illegalities in e.g. federal contract competitions, with the corporation arranging for the person's long-term financial well-being.)

Posted September 3, 2008 8:33 PM by Paula Lieberman

Try to get photos of the violent "anarchists"' footgear, especially soles. It's been noted at prior events that rock-throwers and police were wearing boots with the same distinctive yellow-on-black sole markings -- and when parade organizers would confront the rock-throwers to stop them, the latter would immediately run into police custody.

Posted September 3, 2008 9:33 PM by Pyre

The photo linked toward the end -- the one from the Montebello protests just over a year ago -- well, the Quebec police eventually admitted that, yes, the people in question were cops, but denied that they were "provocateurs". That latter claim might have been more credible if they hadn't spent a few days denying that they were cops.

Posted September 3, 2008 9:36 PM by BC Holmes

The yellow on black soles are the standard Vibram brand pattern; I've got a pair, and my sister and BIL have several. They're used on several brands of work shoes and boots.

I think that there is almost certainly a civil liberties outrage going on in St. Paul right now, but please don't get distracted by such a minor and almost certainly meaningless detail. Please.

Posted September 3, 2008 9:39 PM by JESR

re IDing possible agents provacateur Footwear, per se, isn't going to do it. The incident in Quebec had the advantage of being small. St. Paul is huge (how many arrests have there been? How many detainments? How many of the former are going to end up, as with the last RNC in New York, just dismissed?)

There is is a lot of cover for those who are, intentionally, providing cause for heavy-handed police behavior (some of which will be by cops who are acting in good faith. They are outnumbered, and it may look to them as if they are under siege).

Faces are needed. Footage of them being treated differently from other "rioters" is needed.

Lawsuits are in order (of the sort which will cost the insurers so much money they will never entertain such a liability again).

Attempts to break the cover of insurance (which the insurers will, passively, collude to make happen if the lawsuits are solid enoug to make them never want to entertain such liability again).

Those insurance clauses imply a guilty mind to me. They expected to be doing things in excess of the law, and the RNC was willing to let it happen.

Posted September 3, 2008 10:36 PM by Terry Karney

Kathryn, #10, remember that picture of the teenager putting a flower in the soldiers' rifles during the March on the Pentagon? I was in that march and he wasn't. He was an actor who came in a car with the flowers. It was just a photo-op for him.

Posted September 3, 2008 11:00 PM by Marilee

Terry #26:

Yep. That insurance policy screams "moral hazard." And if the brutality complaints cost the insurance company enough money, they'll raise the price for next time.

Posted September 3, 2008 11:14 PM by albatross

Revolutionary poseurs. There's a long history of these assholes showing up at protests. I had the displeasure of seeing them in Seattle during the WTO meetings.

Posted September 3, 2008 11:33 PM by Scott Janssens

JESR #25, the photo you're talking about -- with the boot soles -- is from a union protest in Canada last year, not the current events in St Paul.

I've heard, from people active in protest politics in the '60s, that one easy way to spot government infiltrators was to look at people's shoes. The FBI and the cops would constantly be trying to insert people into various counter-culture groups, and you'd see these guys with tie-dyed shirts and blue jeans -- and shiny shoes like a businessman.

Posted September 3, 2008 11:48 PM by Avram

Whoever they are, I want to know. I want to know who they are, why they did what they did, who encouraged them, and everything. And I want to know if they've been charged with anything, and I want to know the outcome of that.

Why don't we know that already?

Posted September 3, 2008 11:52 PM by elise

Avram, I've heard that said (Shiny Black FBI Shoes is the term of art) but the big deal was being made about those particular black cleated shoes with the yellow stamp on the insole.

I would expect that there are, indeed, agents provacateurs around; there are also, however, "anarchists" who show up whenever trouble is expected because they get off on the sound of breaking glass; around here, they tend to have Eugene as a home address. Back in the day, part of the protest training I was exposed to was how to identify and neutralize their effects. If I was going to be really paranoid about this, I'd say that part of the purpose of the raids before the convention was to knock out people trained in the fine art of peaceful protest so that the jackasses would be unrestrained.

Posted September 4, 2008 12:03 AM by JESR

Black soles with the yellow stamp on the instep.

The signs point to sleepytime.

Posted September 4, 2008 12:05 AM by JESR

Marilee, #27: are you talking about Joel Tornabene, aka Super-Joel ?

Neddie Jingo and Super-Joel's brother remember things a bit differently.

Posted September 4, 2008 12:27 AM by joel hanes

I was one of those detained (but thankfully not arrested) on Shepard Rd on monday. I wasn't even protesting... I'd come down to get some photos, and stumbled into the police trap. For a while, it looked they were going to arrest EVERYONE... a couple hundred people. Most of the people caught on Shepard weren't even protesters! They were trying to get to the concert on Harriet Island, or were locals. There were enough "anarchists", though, that I got to talk to some.

I don't think there were COINTELPRO plants there. I don't think they were necessary. The world is full of 18-25 year old boys, full of piss and vinegar, looking for ANY excuse to hurt people and destroy stuff. The ones I talked to claimed there was no difference between Obama and Bush, Democrat and Republican, liberal and conservative.... if you're not with them, you're a fascist. Change their alignment slightly, and they'd be out bashing "fags and dirty fucking hippies" instead, with the same glee. It's really sad.

If there were agents provocateur, we wouldn't be seeing broken windows... it'd be pipe bombs and handguns. Why go halfway? REALLY justify the police state.

Posted September 4, 2008 12:35 AM by dave

dave: I don't think so. If that were the case, there would have been more unrest at the DNC. Police reaction has a lot to do with things.

Which is part of why the LAPD riot training stresses keeping the riot sticks (strings of control officer, 13, or 17, or 23, etc.) in column (two files), and only responding to actual acts of riotous behavior.

Because an aggressive police presence will instigate riot where only peacful demonstration was intended.

The 500,000 people who showed up to chant, "Si, se pueda" had lots of young, disaffected people. There was no violence.

A year later, there was; because the LAPD decided to go out in force (contrary to doctrine). The leadership are pretty much parked in dead end jobs now.

You are right, perhaps, that the anarchists aren't plants, but I do think one can say the methods the cops are using are in, and of, themselves, provocative.

The question is, is this cupidity, or stupidity?

Posted September 4, 2008 1:10 AM by Terry Karney

What's most disturbing are the comments left on any articles covering these stories in the pioneer press or star tribune or other major news sites... the comments are appallingly in favor of police violence. You have to wonder how many of those comments are left by the police themselves or other agents of the government.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:21 AM by Xopl

Xopl @ #37, "You have to wonder how many of those comments are left by the police themselves or other agents of the government."

Regrettably, fewer than you think. There are an awful lot of people in this country who think "law n' order" should be enforced with clubs. There were quite a number of them in the XCEL Center in St. Paul this evening.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:52 AM by Linkmeister

#35 Dave

Every year on July 4 several hundred thousand people gather in Boston on the Esplanade on the bank of the Charles River between the Longfellow Bridge and the Harvard Bridge to attend to annual outdoors July 4th Pops concert at the Hatch Shell.

The number of untoward incidents, given the crowd is over the half-million people mark, is negligible. About the worst problem is all the trash that gets left behind that has to get disposed of the next day.

Yes, there are nihilistis jackasses in the Boston area. But somehow hundreds of thousands of people manage to gather peaceble for a common purpose of enjoying the concert and fireworks, year after year after year, without any substantiative vandalism to speak of, without civil disobedience, without even more than noise-level incidences of such things as pickpocketing (I think)! There is a police presence, but it's not a threatening/police brutality one.... and the Pops Concert has withstood the presence of generations of MIT students, who can be counted upon to wreak massive publicity-generating mischief if the mood strikes them to be mischief-making (although the welding the trolley to the tracks incident was a more than a half-century ago.... and these days the perpetrators probably wouldn't get off so lightly with it as a prank).

Hmm...

Thinking a bit more--there was vandalism etc. that occurred after a sports game months ago, among the crowds in the Kenmore Square area, with partying i/d/i/o/t/s 18-25 year olds causing the trouble. A female student IIRC got killed by the police who were improperly using riot-deterrence equipment, a victim of being in the wrong place at the wrong time (somehow it rarely the vandals and looters who are the victims in those sorts of cases, instead there are the "collateral damage" cases and the perpetrators (if there are any--queue up "Ohio" from the untoward event in tht state during tenure of Richard M. Nixon) often get completely away.

Crud. I just realized, 1968 was 40 years ago--1968 being the year that what was going on outside of the Democratic National Convention, has more effect on the election than what happened inside the election.... but surveillance technology back then, was considerable less sophisticated and capable and less scary than what there is today.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:56 AM by Paula Lieberman

Paula - was there a more recent student death, or are you thinking of the Emerson student who was killed in the 2004 World Series celebrations? (Don't remember if it was rubber bullet or if she was trampled by the crowd.)

Posted September 4, 2008 2:55 AM by Rikibeth

It seems odd that he has gloves on. Maybe a protester might feel they need to hide their face (a sad comment on our government), but why gloves. It maybe Minnesota but it isn't cold here yet. I would say that this person planed on doing some thing physical from the start.

Two other things I cant be sure of.

One the cameraman got a pertty lucky shot here. I think you can see him in the reflection. It also looks like a wide angle lens and short shutter speed. Meaning he was right in the thick of things. I would think the "anarchist" would be less then happy about that

Two his shirt looks odd he may be waring padding under it. A handy thing if you are going to be shot at with anti riot gear. Seems like a very prepared man.

Posted September 4, 2008 5:00 AM by egon

As far as plants are concerned- on the one hand, there seems to be some evidence pointing towards that. On the other hand, what dave, JESR, and Scott Janssens said.

Xopl @37:

What's most disturbing are the comments left on any articles covering these stories in the pioneer press or star tribune or other major news sites... the comments are appallingly in favor of police violence. You have to wonder how many of those comments are left by the police themselves or other agents of the government.

You'd have to wonder that if you'd never heard of Bob Altemeyer. If you have, there's not really any reason to wonder about that.

Posted September 4, 2008 5:02 AM by Raphael

How to catch a cop in the US?

Simple. Don't shout "He's a cop!"

Ask him, "Are you a cop?"

Posted September 4, 2008 5:41 AM by Nicholas Patrick

#37: I don't think the authorities have much need of being their own comment cheering section; unfortunately, via scare tactics a substantial portion of the population has been sold the idea that excessive "security" is an amenity that we should all want to pay for. Maybe a few people writing there are cops but the Internet has no shortage of homicidal state-spronsored-violence cheerleaders.

Posted September 4, 2008 6:10 AM by Kathryn Cramer

Some stuff over at Unfogged, from a regular commenter there who lives in the Twin Cities and is an activist.

Posted September 4, 2008 6:25 AM by Eimear Ní Mhéalóid

It's also worth remembering that the protesters aren't the only group subject to being infiltrated by young men full of p-ss and vinegar, wanting to go out and kick some a-- in a righteous cause. The police are also subject to this. My uninformed sense is that SWAT teams are very subject to this--one of those places where the kind of guys who want the job may not be the kind of guys you want in the job.

Where did Minneapolis get all the policemen to handle the RNC convention? Was there some volunteering process that would favor people who were looking forward to a bit of head-bashing in a good (or at least officially sponsored) cause?

Posted September 4, 2008 8:23 AM by albatross

Paula @#39, Rikibeth @#40: A college student was shot in the eye with a pepper pellet from a gun that was advertised as non-lethal. The pellet went through her eye into her brain and she died. I believe it was eventually decided that the police had used the gun improperly (duh).

Posted September 4, 2008 8:38 AM by Michael Bloom

When things were really bad in Italy in the 60s and 70s, the main (and largest, getting up to 40% of the vote at times) leftist political party used to have "security organizations" composed by tough guys (including ex-WWII resistance fighters) that would effectively police their own demonstrations to avoid exactly this sort of scenario. I wonder if we didn't grow too complacent with self-policing demos.

This also reminded me of the G8 in Genoa, where meaningless riots were started by hooded "nobodies".

Posted September 4, 2008 8:42 AM by Giacomo

I haven't been active in the Minneapolis anarchist community since 2002, and then on the fringes, but I learned to assume that any asshole talking not just about violence but about *stupid* violence is either a delusional crazy person (at least one of whom was pretty central in what remained of the local community after most of the Coldwater people dispersed) or a police plant.

You can't tell by their clothes. They arrest people and STEAL THEIR CLOTHES to dress the undercovers (and not just as anarchists - you can find a lot of stories from people busted after hip hop shows whose clothes mysteriously disappeared in the evidence room overnight). You can't tell by their rhetoric - it's not like every strand of anarchist thought and speech habit can't be found all over the internet, pirate radio, and zines.

The only way to tell is by whether or not they show up, all cleaned up, to witness against you in court. And most people plead for suspended sentence so there's never a trial.

This is all SOP for the police department in Minneapolis and St Paul - executing door-kicking, house-busting raids even when the warrant is a knock warrant, for things as minor as employee theft (I knew someone in St Paul who came home to smashed-in doors and a messed-up house because her ex husband, who no longer lived there, was accused of stealing merchandise from his workplace.) Police routinely delete digital images in the course of arrest. When they did the mass arrests at ISAG, almost 10 years ago, Minneapolis police developed everyone's pictures and refused to return them until *after* people had been dragged into court to plead guilty or not guilty three or four times - the Minneapolis City Council passed a law against that after the event, but they were talking about repealing it before the RNC.

One way to estimate undercover presence is to compare arrests to charges, but with groups this big that gets harder.

Posted September 4, 2008 9:07 AM by Rosa

Rosa #49:

Do you know whether the police use informants who are under the threat of prosecution for other crimes in this kind of case? I gather that's a technique that's used often against drug dealers, and that it also has a bad tendency to lead to incorrect warrants and such--the coerced informants often aren't especially reliable or truthful, being themselves criminals.

Posted September 4, 2008 9:14 AM by albatross

#18 ::: Doctor Science:

As I understand such things, $10 million would be rather small to cover the damages.

#21 ::: Paula Lieberman:

I've passed this on to Brad Hicks, who occasionally writes about scams directed at blacks, though it's usually selling investments in booms after it's too late to do anything but lose money.

Ok, the mainstream media haven't been doing these stories justice unless I missed something overnight. What about the comedians? Aside from Stewart and Colbert, there's Le Show and Wha'd Ya Know?.

I've got a line for the mainstream media-- do you think it's also true? "Tell the news or become the news".

#41, from egon,

I can think of two reasons for gloves: concern about broken glass and a desire to not leave fingerprints.

Posted September 4, 2008 9:24 AM by Nancy Lebovitz

Michael @ 47 -
Paula @#39, Rikibeth @#40: A college student was shot in the eye with a pepper pellet from a gun that was advertised as non-lethal. The pellet went through her eye into her brain and she died. I believe it was eventually decided that the police had used the gun improperly (duh).

This is the case.

Rubber bullets are supposed to be bounced off of the ground in front of the target (so the round loses momentum, and so the target space is more likely to be legs and abdomen, rather than chest and face).

Pepper-spray projectiles have a minimum engagement range that they should not be used inside of, because the projectile has too much velocity (they also shouldn't be deployed in weather that is very cold - the projectiles are basically paint-ball rounds, and have the same problems with actually breaking when cold).

Both of these deployment patterns were not done properly, in some cases, in Boston in 2004, and in one case, it lead to a death. (There is also some question, in the case of Victoria Snelgrove, regarding the weapon deployed - it appears the FN303 used is not as accurate as advertised).

These weapons - including mace, tear gas, pepper spray, tasers, stun "guns", rubber bullets and pepper projectiles, and most other variants - are not "non-lethal" - there are few, if any means of subduing or dissuading a human being that are actually "non-lethal" besides words (and maybe not those). They are officially designated as "less than lethal", but advertising and promotional materials sometimes gloss over the "deploy this weapon improperly, and people could still die" part.

Every other technology - every single one - can kill if improperly deployed (gasses can asphyxiate if deployed in closed environments, tasers and stun guns have killed over a hundred people in the US, and any projectile can hit something vital).

This is why such weapons - especially those that are "not quite lethal" like rubber bullets or pepper bullets - need to be closely monitored, their deployment restricted to trained, professional (and level-headed) officers, and their utilization restricted to the most serious situations. They are not phasers, and should not be treated like they were.

Posted September 4, 2008 9:26 AM by Scott Taylor

I can think of one more reason to wear gloves -- one which I'd expect Jim MacDonald to be very familiar with...

Posted September 4, 2008 9:49 AM by xeger

Nancy #51:

Yeah, the hole where the coverage of this stuff should be is, to me, like the scene in any number of SF books in which you realize that the other guy has compromised your computers or evaded your sensors or whatever, and the map you've been treating as the territory is suddenly revealed to be lethally flawed.

I knew this kind of thing happened sometimes, but all the cases I'd seen before were subtle, or only seemed to be happening locally--some ideas don't get discussed, some data aren't reported, the headline is written to spin casual readers away from the details in the story, etc. This is different--like something you'd expect in a totalitarian state--the police bust a bunch of heads, and the newspapers simply don't report it. Like the antiwar protests in the lead-in to the Iraq war, which were not reported in my local media. Like the differences in coverage of the Abu Girab scandal in US newspapers and foreign ones (at least El Pais). But bigger, somehow.

Seeing this, I'm left with a whole set of big questions. What else aren't these guys telling me? What are they lying to me about "for my own good?" What are they omitting to keep on the right side of their sources or advertisers? What are they ignoring because "the public doesn't need to know about that?"

Why do we tolerate this crap? The total value to me of _The Washington Post_ or CNN has gone way down, as a result of this and many related things. I'm not interested in what they think is "responsible journalism," I want them to tell me what happened, as honestly and completely as they are able. (I want similar things from scientists, engineers, doctors, historians, etc.) The news sources that report on these things will increase in value for me, relative to the ones that don't.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:08 AM by albatross

Person breaking window is risking major cuts on forearms. Just follow the blood trail... If for some reason I ever had to break one I'd go for full body armor.
When I was a kid, I swatted at a fly with my hand and broke the window it was on--a couple of minor cuts that didn't hurt but did bleed--Mom was upon me before the shards hit the ground--and the damn fly got away! Lesson learned!

Posted September 4, 2008 10:09 AM by Angiportus

Just because some of the violent "anarchists" are sociopaths on a spree doesn't mean that none of them are agents provocateur. One of a good agitator's jobs is to stir up the genuine idiots and get them to do most of the work; that saves having to fake arrests of real agents. Think of the idiots as a force multiplier.

And I would bet a lot of money that there were plants at that demonstration. All the signs* point to advance intent to break heads, defame protest organizations, and intimidate free speech. Agents are a familiar part of these tactics. So are plants in the police and riot squads, though the idea of Blackwater plants sends a chill down my spine. Atrocities only take one act to start; there was one National Guardsman who fired the first shot at Kent State, out of fear and bad (or no) training. Suppose that had a been a deliberate act, with the rifle set to full auto?

Please, everyone, let's try to implement Patrick's suggestions about identifying these people for sure. Contribute and help analyze photos, arrest reports, whatever documentation you can get your hands on. The only way to fight these tactics is to out the people using them.

* The insurance policy, the raids beforehand, with the really bogus warrants (that one warrant online had only 2 out of 6, IIRC, justifications that were at all defensible in my non-legal opinion), the known attempts to recruit agents (see all links above), indicate an intent on the part of the organizers of the convention and some of the local law enforcement officials. And, very likely, the FBI. They've been doing this sort of thing since the 1920's at least.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:17 AM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

Qt bng sch pss. Th cnstttn grnts th rght fr pcfl ssmbly. "nrchsts" wh tr sht p r brkng th lw nd gt wht thy dsrv. Nt vry cp s pg, nd nt vr prtstr s pcfl hpp.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:34 AM by JJ Fozz

Albatross @ 54 -
Yeah, the hole where the coverage of this stuff should be is, to me, like the scene in any number of SF books in which you realize that the other guy has compromised your computers or evaded your sensors or whatever, and the map you've been treating as the territory is suddenly revealed to be lethally flawed.

This.

Further depondent sayeth not. I'm mad enough at this whole situation to not trust myself with anything other than strictly information postings.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:40 AM by Scott Taylor

Bruce @56, the online copy of the search warrant didn't have a signature page and didn't name the judge who authorized it.

That seems odd.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:41 AM by Dena Shunra

Rikibeth (41), Victoria Snelgrove was killed by Boston police crowd shooting pellets of pepper spray into a crowd after a Red Sox game in 2004. One of the pellets went into her eye at close range. Many news reports called her death "accidental" or say she bled to death because the crowd refused to let an ambulance reach her in time. (To my mind, that seems to miss a large part of the point. She died because somebody shot her.) She was 18 and a student at Emerson College.

This summer, David Woodman was killed by Boston police crowd control measures after a sports event, but the circumstances were different. He was 22, and a student at Emmanuel College. Unlike Snelgrove, he broke the law--he was carrying an open cup of beer on the sidewalk. He was rude to police officers from across the street. (Not making threats. He shouted "Wow, it seems like there's a lot of crime on this corner.") Several police officers tackled him and continued to apply various kinds of force until he stopped squirming and complaining. After they noticed he was not breathing, the police did CPR, but the crowd was too dense for a quick EMT response. He died a week later. There was an investigation for why Woodman did not get medical help more quickly, but I don't recall an investigation about whether the police used excessive force. Or about whether the police should be expected to use ANY force against that kind of comment from across the street.

The mainstream media is very accepting of police violence these days. Maybe the fireworks on the Esplanade draw big crowds, and draw police details, and nobody expects a fight. But many suburbanites only go downtown for sports events, and many of them *do* expect violence to surround those. I know people whose kids are little Red Sox fans, and they don't think it's safe to bring them to post-season games or parades. One can scoop up a 5-year-old to protect her from getting stepped on in a crowd, but what if the crowd gets hit with pepper spray?

I was listening to WBUR after an American League Playoff Game in 2005. The reporter was talking about how great the game had been, and she was reporting from the crowd leaving Fenway Park. There was a lot of cheering, crowd noise, and traffic noise, in the background. The reporter mentioned seeing a lot of police, and said this crowd was really noisy and excited, but there hadn't been any of the rioting that had been a problem in previous years. She said it was really crowded and traffic seemed to be moving slowly, so it would take a long time to get out of there. Then, whoops, the police are coming around the corner and they're using pepper spray, so she has to stop broadcasting. End segment. *NO* *COMMENT* from her or from the studio, about how disturbing it was to have police shooting pepper spray at reporters and sports fans who are not rioting. They acted like it was as judgment-worthy as a thunderstorm.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:49 AM by Adrian

Raphael @ 42: Hadn't heard of Altemeyer or his research into authoritarianism. Tnx.

Posted September 4, 2008 10:55 AM by Rick Innis

Right. Do your best to publicly identify those people. And if it turns out that they were actual protesters and you've just helped them get arrested, well gee, its their own fault for breaking the law...

Posted September 4, 2008 10:57 AM by Ray

My, we do have some new people today.

Posted September 4, 2008 11:05 AM by P J Evans

#54 ::: albatross:

What else seems to have fallen in the memory hole?

#58 ::: Scott Taylor:

Was "This." intended to be a link?

I do have some hope that if the blogosphere keeps making noise, the mainstream media won't ignore it indefinitely.

Posted September 4, 2008 11:18 AM by Nancy Lebovitz

JJ Fozz @57: I can't tell who your advice is addressed to, but I certainly haven't seen anyone in this thread defend "tearing shit up". Last I checked, what our law system says lawbreakers "deserve" is a right to a trial by jury.

Perhaps you'd like to weigh in on what treatment an American citizen, peacefully and legally protesting, "deserves"? I'm pretty sure it's not being knocked down by mounted cops, dog-piled by more cops in riot gear, and tased seven times.

Posted September 4, 2008 11:28 AM by Ambar

Nancy @ 64 -
Was "This." intended to be a link?

Nope. Sorry, that's an rpg.netism - "this" posted after something is basically a sign of agreement, as in "this says what I would say better than I would have said it" or "I can add nothing but agreement to this, and so am indicating so in a brief fashion to save electrons."

I do have some hope that if the blogosphere keeps making noise, the mainstream media won't ignore it indefinitely.

Yeah, that would be nice. I'm afraid I'm not holding out much hope, though. the Fourth Estate, at this point, appears nearly hopelessly corrupt.

Posted September 4, 2008 11:31 AM by Scott Taylor

To quote a great thinker:

"I deeply resent the way this administration makes me feel like a nutbar conspiracy theorist."

In Seattle, the "anarchists" (sneer quotes definitely) who came out of nowhere were never identified, so we never knew whether we were crazy, or setup. I hate that.

Here's another depressing article from the Minn. Independent. Part of me wonders if it is just more of the same, yet another way of making the government less legitimate.

Posted September 4, 2008 11:41 AM by sherrold

mbr - vryn dsrvs trl by jr nd t b trtd th rght wy b th cps, bt whn ctzns strt ctng lk sshds wh tk th lyrcs f RTM t srsl, thn thy hv crssd ln. Tht ln s whr th cps hv t tk stnd.

'v bn hrssd b cps n m rlr dys, nd t ws nncssry - bt ls knw th thr sd f th stry frm cps wh d VRYTHNG thy cn bfr sng frc. Rmmbr, thy r ls prtctng thmslvs.

By th wy, ds Pln lk lk th frstrtd lbrrn n vr sftcr Cnmx mv vr flmd, r s tht jst m?

Posted September 4, 2008 12:19 PM by JJ Fzz

Bob Fletcher, our local county sheriff has a few skeletons in his closet (look up his last election campaign), and I still don't know his political afillation, but the stuff that has been done this week in my name as a citizen of St. Paul in beyond the pale. I had forgotten the local push to infiltrate the groups expected to protest, but the assholes who have smashed the windows are not locals, and the locals have no idea who the hell these people are.

By the way, we have a nice modern airport here, and ever gate has Jetways (or Giant Airplane suckers, as I like to call them), so when the hockey kid showed up in the Cities before making his appearance last night, what the hell was the photo op of the Palin and McCain families on the tarmac all about? If it was done as a photo op, then you can't complain about the media taking your pictures, can you? I hope the National Equirer finds everything they're looking for in Alaska, folks.

Paula- good to see your name again!

Posted September 4, 2008 12:26 PM by 'Cochituate'

Ray, if someone was smashing windows, he _should_ be arrested and charged, whether or not he's a police agent.

Posted September 4, 2008 12:33 PM by Seth

Why does JJ Fozz #68, when engaged reasonably about the use of violence during demonstrations, suddenly decide to change the subject? To Palin pr0n?

hmmm....

Posted September 4, 2008 12:36 PM by cgeye

Re: footwear: Those are vibram soles, a common sole with an identical pattern on literally hundreds of different boots, from multiple brands.

Weak.

Posted September 4, 2008 12:43 PM by Josh

JJ Fozz: By default the police ought to be considered more likely wrong than than not. Power tends to corrupt, and the police have a huge amount of power.

I've done a lot of work with cops, gotten police training, spent a lot of personal time with cops (my dad was a deputy sherrif). The stuff going on in St. Paul is, to my jaundiced eye, largely caused by the nature of the police presense.

If that makes me a pussy... so be it.

But the blithe acceptance of the idea that the cops have justifcations for the things we've seen and heard, will make you a slave to authority, which my pussification won't.

I know which I prefer.

As to what citizens deserve... no.

Every citizen is innocent until proven guilty, and cops have no right to "take stands". They have the right to defend themselves, and a duty to protect the public.

With that they give up a lot of the right to take offense, or respond to abuses which don't threaten their lives. Contempt of cop is not a crime, and if cops stopped assaulting people for no good reason, the contempt of them would go down.

See above about power, and it's tendency to corrupt

Posted September 4, 2008 12:44 PM by Terry Karney

Srr gys, hv hd sm kllr gs ltl. Jst kp bfn' nd blwng t wndws. Gss t's bttr t blw t wndws tht my "-rng" rght? mn tht sht wth th chllngr ws hrdcr!

Posted September 4, 2008 12:44 PM by snrkl256

JJ Fozz: Care to address the issues; or is it going to be quips and deflections until you get tired of trying to impress us with your street cred and worldy wisdom?

Posted September 4, 2008 12:48 PM by Terry Karney

@69

Maybe they flew in on Cindy M.'s essential small private plane?

Posted September 4, 2008 1:03 PM by Karounia

It is typical of those who believe only in authoritarian capitalism to fantasize that the most organized and effective people at a protest are secretly the police.

The police have other and more effective ways of destroying the city: blocking off the bridges and intersections of a downtown core all night and then firing tear gas, as a recent example.

The fact that only the protester violence gets coverage has nothing to do with the non-violent protesters getting no coverage. They never would have gotten anything at all from standing in the street and inviting unsuspecting children and old people to be tear gassed for a photo op, and they shouldn't be. The organizers of these demonstrations will tell people that they have a permit and it is a legal demonstration right up until the police block them off and start gassing.

On the other hand, the black bloc and the police have the same opportunity to spread their message of total dissatisfaction with their everyday lives in this city. There are plenty of stories of police firing off tear gas in the empty city, just to feel the kick. Both groups, in the protest situation, finally get their chance to get back at the scum they see every day driving in their priuses and looking so smug with their civil rights and their double-shot lattes.

Everyone but the rich and the deluded wants to destroy the city, and the protest situation simply make it a little more possible. Occasionally, of course, the police want to try things on the other side, who wouldn't? For the most part, however, I think this is a volunteer activity.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:13 PM by Anonymous

Reminder:

Postings here must be civil and on-topic. Violators will lose their vowels. Some already have.

If you want to say it, say it intelligently and politely. This is not a street brawl, but a peaceful conversation. No breaking of windows, no throwing of bricks, not even metaphorically*.

-----
* Actually, feel free to throw real bricks and break real windows in your own house as you read this. No skin off of my nose.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:15 PM by abi

Abi @ 78... For some reason, I first read that as 'Violators will lose their towels'. I need coffee.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:23 PM by Serge

Serge @79:
'Violators will lose their towels'

Hoopy froods never troll.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:27 PM by abi

Toiletors will lose their towels.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:29 PM by Serge

albatross #50 - I wrote a response and it hasn't shown up, so if this is a repeat because the other one was delayed somehow, I'm sorry.

I don't know anything about informants, except to assume there are some. Despite trying to practice "security culture" most groups just assume everyone knows what they're doing - venues are assumed to be bugged, FBI agents occasionally stop by to ask questions, etc. The little bit I know about undercover officers comes from the community looking at their history after they've been outed in court.

Bruce Cohen in the first paragraph of #56 said something I've been trying to say, only much better than I've ever managed to articulate it.

Back in the early '00s it was discovered that a murder suspect on the lam had been bumming around anarchist spaces here. That disturbed a lot of people, but it highlighted an important truth: one of the weaknesses of left activism is that there's no good mechanism for excluding people. It's a corollary of the openness that's a real strength of most of the Left (though not one of anarchist communities, really; there are strict moral & dress codes)

Posted September 4, 2008 1:31 PM by Rosa

Toiletors will loose their bowels.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:32 PM by Seth

Rosa @82:
Nothing in the moderation queue for this thread, so the repeat is welcome.

(One item of interest was stuck on the RNC Policing thread.)

Posted September 4, 2008 1:36 PM by abi

P J Evans @ 63

Drivebys in opposite directions. Maybe they'll run into each other.

Posted September 4, 2008 1:39 PM by Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers)

#77: "Everyone but the rich and the deluded wants to destroy the city, and the protest situation simply make it a little more possible. Occasionally, of course, the police want to try things on the other side, who wouldn't? For the most part, however, I think this is a volunteer activity."

WTF?

I'm sorry that the commuters to our little burgs who want to get their kicks fomenting violence feel a bit cramped when the folks who *live in those cities* don't want to see them destroyed.

What sort of sociopaths do you hang out with?

Posted September 4, 2008 1:40 PM by cgeye

Terry, I'm not trying to impress anyone with street cred or toughness.

(I was speaking my mind, the mod obviously thought I was being antisocial - ironic when you consider the subject of this thread.)

The comments on this board give me the impression that much of the extreme left gives: incredibly paranoid, unbelievabley sensitive, and missing the real picture by getting bogged down in unnecessary details.

Anarchists are a joke. They're rich little white boys getting their kicks by pretending they're Joe Strummer.

Keep protesting in the streets, fine by me. When the Left lies down with dogs, they're gonna get fleas. And probably bounced around by the cops.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:00 PM by JJ Fozz

Does anyone here have a feeling for whether #77 ::: Anonymous : is some sort of authoritarian anarchist I've never heard of or a troll with an unusually subtle sense of humor?

Posted September 4, 2008 2:09 PM by Nancy Lebovitz

JJ Fozz: No, the mod thought you were being rude, a subtle difference, perhaps, but not the same.

You made a specific point of how you'd been harrasesed as a kid, and then grew out of misbehaving; that looks like an appeal to cred to me.

You've still not addressed the issues.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:09 PM by Terry Karney

JJ Fozz @ 87

We're paranoid because everything we've been saying for the last eight or ten years (and were laughed at for saying) is turning out to be true. What we're worrying about now is enough to scare us spitless, and it ought to scare you too. Think Germany in the 1930s, or the Soviet Union under Stalin, for just how bad it can get.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:14 PM by P J Evans

Terry - I wasn't trying to impress, I was saying that I have been harassed by the cops ANDI have seen the other side of what they're up against.

What are the issues?

Protestors getting kicked around by the cops?
It stinks. It happens. Why are people surprised by this?

Agent provacateurs breaking windows?
Please, put on the tinfoil hats.

Anarchists giving real protestors a bad name?
Yes, it gets in the way of the "real" protestors' message. They need to do their own policing (no pun intended)

Mainstream media doesn't cover this event?
The MSM is pathetic. Again, no surprise there.

All of you can relax. Obama will walk off with this election.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:15 PM by JJ Fozz

P.J.: Barring some actual attempt to answer the questions (instead of derailing things with the ever moving subject change), I'd ignore J.J. Fozz.

I, after all, have been lumped in with the extreme left, we've been called oversentive, and told we will get what we deserve for having sympathy for the protesters (who have all be likened to "anarchists" getting their kicks; instead of people who care about things enough to risk getting their heads kicked in by the powers that be).

He's acting as a stalking horse for the authoritarians (who, in my experience are afraid to debate on the issues, and would rather make it a discussion of emotions, and minor aspersions).

If he's willing to address the issues he so blithely tosses out like little hand grenades, then I'll talk to him.

Until then, a little sandbag here, a little sandbag there, and the damage can be contained.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:20 PM by Terry Karney

Randolph Fritz: Dare we hope that the Democratic Party would provide some help?

No.

The Democratic Party sent the cops outside the Brown Palace Hotel in Denver to get rid of the ABC cameraman who was inconveniencing them by filming senators, lobbyists, and big donors. He was arrested and charged, despite standing on the public sidewalk and not interfering in any way with the comings and goings.

The Democratic Party gave no attention at all to anything the cops did in Denver. The Democratic mayor of Denver has not made public his city's expenditures from the $50 million grant each convention city gets for "security". St. Paul has, and on the model Naomi Klein reported from China, part of the spending stays in place as more state surveillance against the city's residents.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:34 PM by Nell

Terry, see my last post for addressing the issues. Good job on misinterpreting what I've written.

Name the issues. Then we can debate.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:35 PM by JJ Fozz

Apologies to Randolph, not Randolph Fritz.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:35 PM by Nell

Also, having reread the beginning of this post, it seems that everyone tends to quickly believe what they hear from those who have been arrested. A little too quickly.

Nazi Germany? The Soviet Union? Those initially worked because of the time, place and the masses who were invovled.

Yeah, it may be "bad" here, but if you think the US turns into Berlin circa 1937 because of the authorities and the media, I think you're way off base.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:38 PM by JJ Fozz

xopl #37:

Being close to it can change one's perspective. The destruction isn't generic, it's an attack on their home town and by extension, them. Odds are the jerks causing the problems aren't even from there.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:44 PM by Scott Janssens

JJ Fozz:

The past history of police and FBI "political" squads such as Cointelpro, up through at least the '70s, has included police undercover agents infiltrating groups and promoting violence up to and including bombings. While nobody has said that is definitively what's going on here, no tinfoil hats are required to suspect that it is one possibility, particularly when the FBI and police were trying to recruit infiltrators for Twin Cities protest groups earlier this year.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:44 PM by Clifton Royston

albatross: Where did Minneapolis get all the policemen to handle the RNC convention?

St. Paul (not Mpls) has accounted for its spending of the $50 million security grant to each convention city; Denver has not. From the Pacifica story on that breakdown:

Around $34 million is going to pay personnel costs for more than 3,500 law enforcement officials from various jurisdictions. Note that St. Paul normally only has 600 officers. The others are coming from other cities - even as far away as Mesa, Arizona. Plus, there are all the county sherriff's deputies, state troopers, National Guard forces, and FBI -- all of them coordinated by the Secret Service and St. Paul Police.

I doubt very much that any "volunteers" are involved. There are plenty of problem cases on existing, paid, purportedly professional police rosters.

Posted September 4, 2008 2:59 PM by Nell

Clif
You can't blame them for trying, can you? Now before everyone knocks over their cup of green tea on their hemp sandals, hear me out.

One side is trying to achieve a goal (peaceful protest, change the world, etc.) the other side is trying to do their job (keep the peace, protect society).

Ya with me?

So why is everyone so surprised when the authorities try and get a leg up on their opposition?

It's been happening since we became a country. It's the give and take of the game. When you think about it, it's very American.

Kind of like pro football. . .

Posted September 4, 2008 3:00 PM by JJ Fozz

JJ Fozz: It's not the authorities, and the media, per se which make such things possible, but rather the active (and passive) collusion of citizens who decide the, "bad guys" have it coming.

Since guilt has to be proven, the burden isn't on the arrested to prove their case, but the police.

Barring a trial, and evidence, the cops are presumed (at law) to be wrong. The charged are accused; they are not merely awaiting the just sentence of the court.

Care to address the issues?

Here, I'll help you.

1: Why was such an aggressive policing action needed; days before the event, and with no overt acts on the part of those raided?

2: Why was such an overbroad set of warrants issued?

3: If, as reported, the police had informants in the places/groups they raided, why weren't the warrants a) more specific, and b) more fruitful.

That's just on the pre-convention issues.

The next is where you seem to be either a willing collaborator in the nascent rise of facistic traits in America, or willfully blind to what is going on.

4: If the raids and arrests before the convention, with the advantage of informants, were so fruitless, why should anyone give much credence to the claims of the cops out busting heads after the convention started?

Those are the issues. You might like it to be about what you think the posters here are like (whiny, oversentive combat vets like me, who have trained in riot control with the LAP), and how they fail to understand the realities of life as your urbane self does, but those aren't the issues.

The issues are what the cops are doing and why.

All the rest is smoke and mirrors which only serves to let abuses of power continue.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:01 PM by Terry Karney

And then of course there are the questions Elise started with:

Who are these people? Seriously, who are these people? I mean the person breaking that store window and the person or persons who smashed the windows of that police car: who are they?

Posted September 4, 2008 3:04 PM by Kathryn Cramer

I just went back and read the RNC policing thread, and I want to say:

I love the internet.

Seriously. At first I was kind of PO'd at the shock in the liberal blogosphere. OMG POLICE MISCONDUCT! INTIMIDATION! I mean, really, people are surprised? None of this stuff is new. It predates the Patriot Act. It predates this Bush administration. It goes back in American history to the Alien & Sedition Act, and it's the daily experience of many poor communities all the time.

Then I talked to some acquaintances of mine who were around during my arrest & detention. Even though they knew my (almost farcical - it includes, among other things, alleged assault on a horse and a conditional release that would have prevented my presence at home, at work, and at school) story. People believed me, but they all assumed it was just some sort of isolated incident, not one point in a pattern. But the coverage of the RNC is making them see a pattern.

The difference is the web. People's ideas of how the world works are being changed by a bunch of first-hand accounts and local news stories aggregated together from various sources.

Some people, at least.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:14 PM by Rosa

Terry, didn't you get all over me about bragging about how tough I was? (Regardless of our disagreements, thank you for serving our country, I respect that immensely.)

If the raids were fruitless, as you claim, then basically the cops were nothing more than a bunch of goons out looking to hurt people. That doesn't wash with me. An entire division of the police force acting without any kind of limitations - too Orwellian.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:16 PM by JJ Fozz

Rosa@103: Yes, exactly. A cynical "what, you're surprised?" response is not one that leads to change. I am not willing to accept a status quo that has unarmed, empty-handed civilians being tased in the streets of St. Paul. Therefore, while I acknowledge that this is history repeating itself, that doesn't mean I'm willing to deem it acceptable.

JJ Fozz@96,100: I think Terry's response to your remark about hemp sandals and green tea is actually rather restrained. As for your suggestion that we naive little bunnies are accepting the reports of the arrested without question -- perhaps in your rereading, you missed the statement that some of us here knew some of them before they were arrested? They have credibility with me that you lack.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:24 PM by Ambar

The mainstream media is finally picking up on some of these goings-on ... of course the spin is "look at these horrible violent fringe radicals, aren't the police doing a great job of saving us all from them?" :P

From the boston.com home page

Posted September 4, 2008 3:25 PM by meredith

I am neither an authority on anarchism (and could not imagine that these things exist), nor am I trying to humiliate anyone on the internet.

I am simply pointing out that maybe the people who, for example, shot the mayor of San Francisco to death and got away with it, aren't going to be arrested at a protest for breaking a few windows. That will be true even if they aren't being paid for it.

What is sociopathic about destroying the window of a building that you will never be allowed into? What is so strange about attacking a vehicle that you have been beaten inside before? I think your lack of understanding is a smokescreen for cowardice.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:39 PM by Anonymous

Dear abi and elise,

I had meant to hang A Charm Against Disemvowellment over my computer, but had not gotten to it yet. I didn't think it would be needed this badly.

On the other hand, it might crack under the load, and I would hate that.

[haiku deleted for lack of merit]

Posted September 4, 2008 3:49 PM by Ambar

nameless one at 107

'The people' who shot Moscone didn't get away with it. He was arrested and tried. (Remember the 'Twinkie defense'?)

Destroying stuff doesn't make us more sympathetic to any cause, no matter what we actually think of that cause. You might possible want to think about that.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:51 PM by P J Evans

Ambar @108:

Without trying to devalue elise's craft, I must say that you already display, in your comments, the requisite charm to avoid disemvowelment.

Indeed, it is usually the lack of any charm at all that causes the loss of vowels. If you get what I mean.

Posted September 4, 2008 3:55 PM by abi

If you got photos of the violent types, then offered $10 for each successful ID on the Mechanical Turk, I imagine that would get the job done.

Posted September 4, 2008 4:04 PM by creedofhubris

JJ Fozz at 104--

Did you really just say "It can't be true, so I won't believe it?"

The raids were pretty much fruitless. Most of the "weapons" are things we all have ar