@931: I often have my clothes by my 2st alarm (might as well get dressed, it's warmer). I'll have either/both my SAD light and a book by my backrub-shiatsu cushion (I like backrubs, might as well get Light and light reading). My 3rd alarm-- my cellphone-- is there too, with an interesting webpage cached. So 45 minutes after my 0th alarm, I've been upright and caffeinated for 25 minutes and reading for 15-20 minutes.

I'm seriously impressed. I'm a big believer in lowering energy barriers to performing activities (the concept of "activation energy" really needs to be generalized). Your approach requires a lot more planning than I can usually manage, though. I usually settle for enthusiasm rather than pre-planning: "Let's see if [friends] have emailed me overnight!" "I get to eat [whatever] for breakfast!"

As for motivating myself to get into work once I've fully woken up -- having gone through grad school, I've learned that, even for the uber-successful people, the motivation to get into work doesn't always have to be intrinsic. It's useful if it is (for awhile, I was getting myself into work early in the morning so I could remove [person who I had realized had been stealing a lot of my research] from the paper I was working on), but I knew a (brilliant and highly productive) professor who admitted that, for large chunks of grad school, he was coming into work just for the snacks in the vending machine. I know I've come into work just so that I can download my favorite podcasts and TV shows off of iTunes. So long as I actually get work done once I show up, I don't think anyone can tell the difference.

Of course, it helps that -- in my late twenties -- my body has finally decided to wake up in the mornings.

As I've gotten older, I've come to understand so much about my mom, her behavior, and a lot of the 'why' behind it. I haven't forgiven it, but the understanding has helped me a lot.

Y'all be gentle with yourselves.

Yay for our own special brand of firework!

LMM #1: Does it still not count as "intrinsic" when you're choosing rewards that will "just happen" to get you where you need to be?

@4: To some degree. I think my phrasing there was wrong -- what I was trying to distinguish between was a motivation to actually do work and a motivation that gets you to work, where you might as well be productive.

The former is ideal, particularly for careers which otherwise don't have a lot of rewards. The latter is far easier to find.

(I'm feeling a bit guilty about derailing this post so early on -- but maybe this deals with the whole "I'm a failure as a grad student" discussion previously? Even the most successful people aren't necessarily motivated by the 'right' things all the time.)

the invisible one @895, Merricat @899 -

I'm another early bird. I tend to function better when I'm out of bed prior to 8am, and preferably when I'm up before 7am. Means I can get the necessary two hours of walking in circles and getting my brain pointed in the correct direction done before most people are expecting me to be out there and facing the universe. By contrast, my mother always says she doesn't actually wake up until at least 10am (even if she did have to be up and doing around 8am for a long time). This is what coffee is for.

I find I do have problems with keeping going and keeping focussed after about 2pm - my least productive hours are the late afternoons, when it just seems too damn late to be starting anything. So these days, now I'm back at uni, I'm finding a cup of coffee is a major help for the late-afternoon tutorials I have scheduled (one at 3.30pm, one at 5.30pm). The coffee at least gives the brain a bit of a boost, and keeps me firing on all cylinders when what I actually want to do is fall in a heap and collapse. I don't *think* it's affecting my sleep cycle too much, although I'm saying this coming off nearly a week of a completely disordered one for me - staying up really late, sleeping late afterwards, and then staying up late again. But then again, I'm putting all of that down to stress.

My partner, by contrast, is a night owl, as well as having any number of problems with sleep as a generalised concept (trouble getting to sleep, trouble staying asleep, sleep apnoea, snoring etc). His best time of the day starts at about 9 - 10pm and carries through to about 3am. If we're both allowed to maintain our preferred sleep cycles, we tend to tag on and tag off at either end of a day - I do the day shift, he does the nights.

Megpie @6: has your partner looked into treatment for his sleep apnea? Aside from potentially stopping or at least reducing the snoring, it'll let him get actual restful sleep. I have a couple of friends who reported the most amazing difference in their days once they got their apnea fixed.

*pokes head in*

Hi, people. I know I'm a pretty intermittent poster here, but I just wanted to remark that I got out. I've taken out a student loan and moved into the apartment-style dorm at my college, where (for now) I have an entire suite to myself.

I went through the most intense suicidal period of my life about a week or so after moving out. I did not expect that - turns out it's pretty normal, after escaping an emotionally abusive relationship - but thankfully, I made it. (There is a bookcase in front of my fourth-floor window now, I am taking advantage of my school's free counseling service - and semi-regularly surprising the counselor with the levels of, well... briskly practical sanity, like moving the bookcase, that got me through the last 25 years - and my usually ever-present Swiss Army knife spent some time in the naughty corner. Literally. IDK, this amuses me.)

My, um, first-line support network is my LiveJournal friendslist, who've been really helpful / supportive (I make daily locked "still alive" posts there now)... but the amount of, of bringing dysfunctional behaviors out into the open and describing them for others' reference, that you (we) do here, has been a real lifesaver. I always learn things when I come back to catch up. And the general concern with not being dysfunctional at each other, that's... a useful example, too. :-)

Also - I credit a lot of this to the DFD threads, but I keep changing so fast mentally that I don't even know who I am anymore. This is in a good way - I'm suddenly not scared of dogs (a lifelong phobia), I don't have to poke at every little mental discontinuity that might indicate a dysfunctional piece of training behind it (I still do it when I have the spoons, because I need to finish rewiring my mind, but I'm not uncontrollably triggered into it and can't stop if anyone just says anything that starts me down that path), I'm eating regularly, etc. I even seem to be working through my extreme clinginess toward and possessiveness of anyone who shows me the slightest kindness. :D

(There's still work to do on that last one, because a couple of my oldest friends probably wouldn't react at all well if they knew I was experimenting with gender identity, and I don't anywhere near have the courage to tell them about that or my political-type changes of stance in the last year. Because I love them as people - they're misguided, is all - and I don't want to lose contact with them. This wants more thinking... sometime when I am not working on a term paper. *g*)

Also, my former inability to self-direct, which (it now seems pretty obvious) came from being raised by an extreme control freak and co-dependent (my biological female parent, the "she" of my username). I'm still working on learning how not to just dick around on the Internet until somebody comes and tells me what to do, but - well, I am learning. I think.

(Writing comments on Making Light, or elsewhere, is not dicking around. I choose when and how to do it, and it has a beginning and end point. Obsessively refreshing my inbox because somebody might have said something to me somewhere and I'm lonely and feel like I have no value if nobody's paying attention to me, that's counter-productive dicking around and wastes hours of my time every day that I do it.)

***************

That's all past/present stuff. For future stuff... I am beginning to realize that I might be an extrovert. Just because I've always preferred being alone to being with my particular family, doesn't mean I don't need and enjoy contact with people. I get really depressed when I don't hear from anyone for a week, and I'm the last one to leave a party as long as I don't get trapped into a conversation with someone who's not being interesting and won't shut up. ;P A picky extrovert, if you will. The Internet works better for me because (a) people congregate by size/depth of discussion they like to have, it's like sorting of sediment in a riverbed or desert *geology nerd* and (b) nobody can force me to interact with them. My famdamnily is all about the Presenting Proper Appearances Of Sociable Interaction.

*is thinkyfacing about many things, but feels generally forward-looking and other silly expressions of that sort* ;P

Also, I'm starting serious work on rewriting a NaNoWriMo I did the last time I was out, which is essentially all about two people building a healthy relationship of equals. I couldn't work on it while I was "Back There". This time, I'm going to stay out.

:D

she pushes down @8, congratulations on multiple levels. Go, you.

she pushes down @8:

smiles and applause aimed in your direction

very glad to hear from you

she pushes down @8

Lovely! Go Team You! I'm excited to hear all your good news!

she pushes down @8

Lovely! Go Team You! I'm excited to hear all your good news!

she pushes down @8: Yay!

she pushes down @ 8: Congratulations! That sounds like great progress to me.

Like you, I found it useful to realize I didn't like my own behavior. It was unpleasant at first; then I realized that people don't change things they're happy with, so the unhappiness was actually an opportunity.

Abuse survivors: do you ever develop an internalized sense of normal human interaction? I don't think I have one, or at least: a great deal of situations make me freeze completely because I don't know how to react.

#8 ::: she pushes down on my head so I won't grow ::

Tremendous congratulations!

I'm listening to an interview with Jeannette Winterson, author of a memoir, Why Be Happy when You Could Be Normal?.

One of the many interesting things she said was that dysfunctional (unhappy?) families are a conspiracy of silence.

My comment's been gnomed.

Stefan S, that is a beautiful poem. I haven't calligraphed in decades, but suddenly want to break out the pens and make it into a poster.

she pushes down @8: Congratulations is not enough of a word to salute all your awesome!

... and Jacque wants to read Nancy's comment.

(BTW, why is my "Don't make me type all this again" checkbox taking?)

Variation of last time @Ride/931: on bribing onesself to get up

Ah yes. I tried finding a coffeemaker that would wake me in the morning with hot tea. No joy (only programmable ones I find are, like, huge). *sigh*

grow @8: Glad to hear from you. Sounds like progress is popping along! Congratulations!

the general concern with not being dysfunctional at each other, that's... a useful example

I am repeatedly astonished at how much of any current claim I can make to being "civilized" and "a grown-up" is directly attributable to reading here.

I need to finish rewiring my mind

I hate to break it to you ;-> , but, if my experience is any guide, this is an eternally ongoing process. The day may very well come, however, when you look back and realize that all those nightmarish things you used to struggle with are but a distant memory.

my former inability to self-direct, which ... came from being raised by an extreme control freak and co-dependent

Interesting. I have strugged for much of my life to be "self-directed." I, too, escaped an over-controlling parent.

I am beginning to realize that I might be an extrovert.

Go, you! I was well into my forties before I worked this one out. It's great that you're realizing this so much earlier. I predict that it will make spoon budgeting much easier for you.

:D

:D :D indeed!

Marith @16: Stefan S, that is a beautiful poem. I haven't calligraphed in decades, but suddenly want to break out the pens and make it into a poster.

If you do, be sure to scan it and make it available for purchase/download.

BTW, Stefan S, I trust you've overcome any insecurities about commenting here...? =;o)

What a gorgeous poem. I had lost track of this thread and am happy to see it re-upped, and especially with Stefan S's words, which I find particularly resonant in this Lenten season.

she pushes down, #8: This is fabulously good news! Thanks for dropping in to tell us about your progress.

I'm starcat_jewel on LJ, if you want to add me there. If you choose not to, no offense will be taken.

my extreme clinginess toward and possessiveness of anyone who shows me the slightest kindness
BTDT, and still struggle with it from time to time. It does get easier with (1) more self-confidence and (2) a larger circle of friends who accept you for who you are.

Nancy, #15: "Why Be Happy When You Could Be Normal?"

Egad. My parents never said that in so many words, but it could have been their mantra. Except that they didn't see it that way; from their POV, I couldn't possibly be happy if I wasn't (their definition of) normal.

she pushes down @8: Oh, that's wonderful to hear! That's fantastic! It sounds like you have a real handle on what you want to do for yourself, and what you need to do.

And now, my new levels of cope are going to be tested; Husband was laid off today. He's handling it pretty well, and I'm obviously supporting him 100%, but we really didn't need this.

I have been away from ML because I haven't had the spoons to manage useful conversation. Please excuse the drop in.

I have to be out of my apartment by March 31st. I had planned for it. I had another apartment all set, lease signed, movers booked.

I found out last night that the new apartment is not legally mine.

The landlady inherited the building when her father died last December. Apparently, just before he did, he signed a lease with this other person. The landlady did not realize this. I found out when the phone and electric companies told me they could not set up my services in the new place because someone else was already doing so.

So now I have 10 days to find somewhere else to live.

I will not be homeless. Worst case, I move to my mother's basement. This will not be good for me mentally or emotionally; at least it's a place.

I'm in full-on panic mode and flailing wildly, which is not useful, dammit. I need to find something, asap/immediately/NOW, and I'm drowning instead of swimming.

Fooey: What city are you in?

Long-time lurker here...

I checked Making Light earlier today and was happy to find an update -- and then Stefan's poem sang to me, and I thought, "Well, isn't this an interesting coincidence?"

I'm living at home for the first time since the summer of 2008, when I was still college and before I'd found an apartment off-campus (went to school in my hometown). I'm only spending about two months here now, before going to Iraq for the first leg of a 3-year commitment (NGO work), and I figured it'd be fine. It's a holding pattern, and a place to land, and it's the house I grew up in. Should be fine.

I don't want to go into a whole lot of detail, but it's not fine. I'm realizing that all of the things I was able to ignore when I visited home over the past four years I no longer can ignore - or, rather, it's like I've caught myself pretending, and I'm tired of wearing the mask. My father hasn't worked in the past 13 years - long story - and he's depressed (not medicated), and he spends an increasing amount of time at home. My mother works 5 jobs (many of them part-time) to support us - my brother, especially, as he's still in college, and then yeah, my dad, because he doesn't work.

You know, to write it out like this makes it seem - to me - like my mom should just kick my dad out, and get on with things. Or my dad should just get a job already. It's a birdcage, though. Many tiny little bars, and I don't think, anymore, that anything I say or do is going to take them all away.

My friends - friends who've had personal experience in this sort of thing - have pointed out that it sounds like my father is either a narcissist, or has borderline personality disorder. I still feel like I need to figure out what both of those things are before I can say it, too, but at the same time it feels - affirming, I suppose - to have a potential name for his behavior. It means that me and my mother and my brother aren't the only people out there to have experienced someone like my father. The kind of "most of the time he's really friendly and nice, especially outside the house" feeling of guilt, because I've seen one too many times when he was so angry it was terrifying. I still wince whenever a man clears his throat. But how to explain that to someone who's only ever seen the nice side?

You know, I would not have commented here if I hadn't clicked over to the previous discussion and seen David Harmon's comment at the top of the post. Because that is just the sort of thing I've been feeling, but have been unable to articulate, for a long time, now. It was good to find someone else has put it into words.

And I did start seeing a therapist - just last Friday. Don't have much time before I leave, but she specializes in family trauma, and she's giving me tools to cope and heal myself. That's good.

Jennifer Baughman and Fooey, sympathies to you both and hoping things work out smoothly.

Jennifer Baughman @22: Best wishes. Sounds like Husband's employer is one best seen in the rear-view, anyway, if that's any consolation.

Fooey @23: Might your local Y might serve as a interim solution, while you look for something more permanent? At the very least, this might serve to quiet the panic.

firefly @25: I'm tired of wearing the mask.

Good for you. This is the first step in making the jail-break real.

But how to explain that to someone who's only ever seen the nice side?

I had this challenge around my mother. Worse yet, I had this problem with her. "How can you have such issues with me? Your friend Patti thinks I'm great." "That would be because Patti is not your daughter." Cue whistling noise as the distinction sails right over her head.

newly growing@8: Welcome to the wider world.

Marith@17/Jacque@19: Please keep in sight that Stefan S is the author of that poem, and thus the presumptive copyright holder. Most people around here try not to sell copies of copyrighted works without permission.

@24 Carrie S.

I think that to say so would identify me, and I wish not to be identified in this thread. I appreciate that you mean to offer help, and I thank you for it. I hope you will not be offended by my non-answer.

Others: I have made motions into making inquiries; posting here did seem to help serve as a "start now" button. Doggy paddling, anyway.

I may have legal recourse, as the landlady did sign the new lease with me, which is a legally binding contract. It's just the time, of which I have little.

#8: wow, what great news! Good for you!

Firefly : sending good wishes your way. Sounds like you have help with coping. do you also have a list of places that are low stress to be out (spend the day at the library)? I have to remind myself, but being armed with a plan for being in less stressful places (and not being home for family meals) helps me a lot.

On motivation, I would love to have the trick to motivate and be on time in the morning. I go further into the night if left to my own devices. As with so much of the discussion on ML, I'm reading along and learning from everyone.

she pushes down #8: Congratulations on so many levels!

And now I'm thinking about my own lack of self-direction. Weak executive function is a classic symptom of my diagnosis on the autistic spectrum... but I also have a moderately narcissistic mother. "Moderately", because she's not incapable of taking correction (indeed, she's improved a lot over the decades) -- but the whole time I was growing up, there were an awful lot of things where the only "right" way was her way, to her standards, and no one else around to say different.

And if I dragged my feet at whatever when expected, then she was likely to swoop in and "help" me do it... which was much of how I wound up in a major (and personally indifferent) college without being even remotely ready for the big wide world, despite what should have been glaring red flags showing up all through high school.

I visited my parents this weekend for Mother's Day.

My mother told me off for not being nice enough to my brother. He didn't understand, she said. All those years, every day of my life before I went to university, he just didn't understand that he shouldn't hurt me. And he just wants me to love him, she says, and why can't I be nicer to him?

I don't want to be his friend. I don't want him to be happy to see me. I don't want him to expect anything from me.

He did understand that he shouldn't hit people. He was still punching and throwing things at my little brother and me for ten years after he'd learned not to do it to anyone else. That's not failure to comprehend, it's knowing exactly what you can get away with.

I quoted my mother's words back to her: I can't stop people from hurting me, but I can stop them from hurting me twice.

She won't understand. Eighteen years of him beating me up, that's no big deal. My tone of voice being incorrect at the dinner table, that makes the whole relationship my fault.
(He was making a horrific scraping squeaking noise with his cutlery on the plate, the kind of noise that makes your teeth crawl and your shoulders try to escape through your neck, so I said "Eat the pie, not the plate," without thinking about it. She told me later that I was being nasty and cruel and said it in a very harsh way.)

She wants it to be something wrong with me that makes me not love my brother. I don't understand why it can't be something wrong with him.

Firefly #25: I'm glad my comment is still helping people!

And amen to the warning from FaultyMemory #28. On the other hand, if Stefan is willing to start in with CafePress or a similar "print on things" shop, that would be greatly welcomed.

the invisible one @7 - yeah, he's looked into it. He had a CPAP machine at one point (which he said didn't work, since the noise of the machine running kept him from actually falling asleep in the first place) and he's had surgery to remove some of the tissue at the back of his throat that was intensifying the snoring and the apnoea. However, he still has moments where he'll stop breathing in the middle of sleep, and this means I'll get a bit twitchy if he suddenly stops snoring for long periods when he's sleeping during the day (to the point where I'll go and make a "not dead yet?" check).

We've found separate beds in separate rooms work best for us as a sleeping arrangement.

My mother died a few years back. Tragically young. (The deepest part of the tragedy for me was that, at 24 years old, I was only just starting to understand her as a person rather than as a figure of maternal authority and judgment. Deep down, I credit her divorce from my father with this development in our relationship - and even deeper down, I wonder if the stress of the divorce weakened her body enough for the cancer that she'd supposedly survived eight years earlier to metastasize from whatever hiding place it'd found in the meanwhile.)

Anyway. Her funeral service and wake - we may not be an Irish family, but I don't know what else to call the celebration of her life that extended deep into the night when the service was over - was on a beautiful October day. I flew back home the next week.

Upon flying back for Christmas with the family, my sister revealed that my grandmother - my mother's mother - had stolen some things from my mother's house during the wake, as well as later under the guise of helping my sister clean the house out. We confronted her at her own house a couple days after Christmas - having not wanted to spoil the holiday itself with accusations of theft. Her response was to hurl a guilt-tripping rant at us about how she'd supported us our whole lives - essentially expecting the time and money she'd spent on us to be repaid in an unwillingness to challenge her on her wrongdoing - and then threw us out of her house, telling us she never wanted to hear from us again.

My sister tried to mend things a couple months later on both of our behalves, receiving in response a card that condescendingly offered to forgive us for the (completely true!) accusation, as "the Christian thing to do". At which point I was done. My wedding was a few months after that; she didn't receive an invitation. My sister eventually reconciled with her (to the extent that "pretending it never happened and trying to maintain a normal relationship in spite of it" counts as reconciliation), and thankfully my two younger siblings were left out of the fracas entirely, so I still saw her (and we completely ignored each other) at a few family events, like my sister's wedding a couple years after mine. For my part, as far as I was concerned, I was abiding by her request to never hear from me again; I figured that if she wanted to hear from my again she could retract that request. She never did.

Early last year, I'd started having dreams about my grandmother. Each dream was basically a normal familial interaction - sometimes we'd acknowledge that the situation was behind us, sometimes it was as if it had never happened (and not in the "agreeing to ignore the past" kind of way). In the summer, I learned I was to be a parent soon. I decided it was time to swallow my pride and attempt to reconnect.

So, holding the prospect of contact with her great-grandchild as a sort of olive branch, I informed her of said descendant's impending existence, and explained that I wanted to no longer worry about the past and focus on welcoming my child into the family. I expected it to work similarly to how her reconciliation with my sister did - we'd agree not to talk about the unfortunate incident, and move on. Instead, I received a response that started off promisingly - relating her own feelings upon welcoming my mother into the world - but soon segued into the same guilt-trip she'd given me before, and pointing out that my email to her lacked an apology. (Followed by a brief prospect stating she would indeed welcome my child with love.) I never responded. Perhaps it was still some lingering stubbornness or pride, but while I was willing to forgive and forget, and while I had accepted the fact that I'd never see an apology from her, I refused to validate her worldview - herself as the wronged party and me as the aggressor - with an apology to her. It seemed to me to just be inviting further abuse.

At this point, she'll get a birth announcement postcard in the mail just like everyone else we know, and the next move is hers. I doubt there will be one. She has three other grandchildren to look after her, and I have no doubt that their willingness to continue maintaining that relationship with her will contribute to the continuing calcification of her grudge against me.

I stopped having dreams about her, though - which I take to mean that my subconscious considers the matter closed.

I never considered my relationship with my grandmother to be a dysfunctional one while my mom was alive, but looking back over my life I can see several events that point to exactly why. As a child, I'd wondered why my mother was so frequently getting in arguments with her mother. After all, Grandma was so nice to us! She couldn't possibly be a bad enough person for my mom to argue with her like that! But Mom was nice too, so I was left deeply confused by the whole situation. I now understand what it was: my mother buffering me and my siblings from the more unpleasant aspects of my grandmother's personality.

And when Mom was gone, and that buffer that she maintained for us disappeared, we had to deal with our grandmother on our own. And the one thing that ran through my mind, again and again, every time I was struggling with how to handle her, was that if only Mom were here, she'd know what to do.

The pain of losing Mom subsides over time, and most days I just feel it as a dull ache in my heart - but the regret of having started too late to form that rapport with her, and the absence of her ongoing support and guidance in my life, is a sharp pain anew every time I stumble over it.

If only she were here, she'd know what to do.

she pushes down @8:

I sympathize with the dilemma of extroversion. I thrive on being in the company of other people, and yet I feel like I'm so bad at it. I have a vibrant circle of friends, but I feel like they're all just a little bit distant - I don't have any of the close, lifelong "best friendships" others seem to have, apart from my relationship with my wife. (I envy the deep friendship she has with her best friend.) Any time I'm trying to talk to a new person I completely seize up with anxiety and fear - of rejection, of saying the wrong thing and offending them, of looking like a creep when all I really want is to develop a friendship.

But one lesson I've taken to heart from my introvert wife - an introvert, by the way, who is much better at dealing with people than I ever will be - is that there are some people who take much more emotional energy to deal with than others. In her analogy, dealing with people can either give you energy or consume it. If a typical interaction with other people (specific cases notwithstanding) energizes you more often than it drains you, you're an extrovert. Vice-versa, you're an introvert. But even an extrovert can have people who are a drain on your energy, just like an introvert can have people whose presence energizes them. (In my wife's case, I am one of the few people in whose company she can spend long periods of time without feeling drained; said best friend is another. Most of our other close friends are just less of a drain on her than the average person.) It's not the most accurate analogy - even the most extroverted person can just get sick of people every once in a while - but I've found it helpful.

Froth @32:

My guess - and I apologize if there are nuances that I'm not picking up - is that the problem of your brother beating you for eighteen years is not one she's equipped to handle, so it's much easier to ignore it. But bad table manners? That's easy to address, and not nearly as damning of her as a mother. So it becomes an easy scapegoat that doesn't leave her needing to confront the massive failure of her parenting.

I ran into the same issue in school, one year, when the teacher was faced with the fact that I had learned the entire year's math curriculum the prior year (thanks to a pair of teachers willing to invest extra effort in my education). She decided that, rather than putting in the extra effort to make sure I was actually learning something, she'd cast me as a kid with "social problems" who needed to be focusing on being more socialized rather than learning math. Suddenly I was the one responsible for every minor altercation with other students in the classroom - not because it was a fair apportionment of blame, but because it reinforced her assertion of being blameless for my (and my parents') complaints.

The next year I was in a different school. I wish your situation was as easily resolved - but then, one of the hallmarks of a dysfunctional family is that the option of removing yourself from the problematic situation is so much harder to accomplish.

two generations removed #35: My sympathies... I had a similar situation with my father, who died just as I was getting to know him (My parents divorced when I was 5), and both of us were getting treatment for our depression. (I'd gotten the meds first; when he saw how they were working, he wound up getting them too.)

As far as stress weakening her body... possible, but the thing about cancer is... well, Randall Munroe explains it better than I could.

Addendum to me at #37: I'm talking about your mother's death, of course, rather than your grandmother. Though my Dad was in no position to protect me from my more problematic family members....

Froth @32: She wants it to be something wrong with me that makes me not love my brother. I don't understand why it can't be something wrong with him.

Because he's the Chosen One. And if there's something wrong with him, that would mean there was something wrong with her for not protecting you.

::SIGH:: Sounds too familiar.

Megpie71 @34: apnoea

Sorry, don't have a cite, but I ran across this as a tangent to somethingorother: the researcher reported tangentially that he and his grad students noticed that they were sleeping better during the [somethingorother] project; finally worked out that it was the didgeridoo practice. Turns out didgeridoo tones up a lot of the muscles and tissues that are a problem in sleep apnea.

two generations removed @35: If only she were here, she'd know what to do.

Suggestion: ask your subconscious for some dreams about this question. Given that (a) you knew your mother and (b) you have a sampling of your grandmother's behavior first in the presence and then in the absence of your mother's filtering influence, I'd be willing to bet that somewhere in there you have a model (in the form of a negative casting, if you will) of how your mother handled the dynamic.

Given that your other sibs have gone the "forgive and forget" route, it may turn out that your mother's strategy was something similar, and as such you may choose to stay clear of your grandmother anyway. But you might find some interesting "easter eggs" in the hidden recesses of your unconscious.

& @36: I thrive on being in the company of other people, and yet I feel like I'm so bad at it.

Take heart; it's a learnable skill. (I'm the poster child.) From my understanding the "company supplies energy" vs. "company drains energy" is a good nutshell description of the Myers-Briggs Introvert-Extrovert spectrum, and is also a good description of my personal experience.

The biggest key for me has been deciding what kind of person I want to be (kind, generous, empathic, humorous) versus the kind of person my upbringing trained me to be (angry, resentful, distrustful, etc.) I was then able to identify people I knew or knew of who displayed the characteristics I wanted to live, and I began collecting habits, skills, beliefs, and practices from them that supported that way of being. The process has actually gone much faster than I would have expected: I think the process really started only about fifteen years ago, and for the first five I wasn't quite conscious of what I was trying to do.

So shoot for the moon; it's entirely doable.

she pushes down @#8, ***happy dance with flower strewing***

Now you can change your name to "she tried pushing down on my head but I slipped out from under her hand, neener neener!" --seriously, what an amazing story of courage and perseverance!

I'm glad this exists, and I'm glad it showed up in my RSS page when it did.

I have a counseling appointment in the morning, because I went to see my doctor today about the panic attacks I've been having for the past month. Student health services is all in one building, so my doctor did the doctory things (meds, lab work) and had me make an appointment with counseling. Not the first time I've seen this counselor, but it's been about a year - anyway, I'm babbling.

About a month ago I saw a triggering video, realized that the things I'd been taught about myself might not be true and realized I may never have to live with my parents again, all at once. I was physically sick. It took about a week before I stopped tasting adrenaline and jumping at shadows - it was only two weeks ago I realized that the emotional side of that reaction hadn't gone away.

I spent half of last week with my parents and siblings, and I told my mother I wasn't doing well. She's helping me coordinate my appointments, she's paying for my meds, she's paying my tuition...and she's a huge part of the reason this is happening.

I don't know if I can walk in there tomorrow and admit that. I don't know if I can admit to myself that it wasn't just my fault for being a difficult child. My perspective keeps changing - especially since I was just visiting, and that's always like stepping into an Escher painting. Pretty textbook gaslighting - and yet I cringe even to use that word, because it implies they're doing something wrong.

I talked to several friends throughout my visit, mentioned things that seemed strange or contradictory to me that my mother claimed were completely normal or made sense or were my fault, and they all told me I was correct in my evaluation. But even then, I keep hearing my mother's voice in my head - what I tell them is skewed, is wrong, is misrepresented, so of course they'd agree with me.

I'm not a good communicator. I can't point to specifics. If I tried to bring any of this up with my parents, I'd probably be too nervous to even make sense. They always say that they don't know when things bother me because I don't mention them, or they would change, but every time I even try they twist my words. I think, if they ever actually heard what I was trying to say (again, not a good communicator, so not necessarily their fault), maybe they would change.

Or something. Basically, I can't convince myself it wasn't my fault, because they're so normal and good and I'm me. And I'm scared I'm going to go see my counselor tomorrow and she's going to say I'm wrong and bad for even thinking it might be their fault. I can't figure out what's real any more.

she pushes down @8: congratulations! Moving out is one of the best things you can do for yourself, ever, in my experience. "Really truly moved out" triggered a noticeable improvement in my mother's treatment of me, and it may be the same for you. Doesn't mean she won't be bad for you anymore -- but she might be better than before.

Also, you are giving yourself back years of your life by already knowing what is going on and actively working on it. I wasted about 10 years and the price of a bachelor's degree on being directionless, pushed around, not believing in myself, and generally being semifunctional, when normal people were building careers or travelling and stuff. I know it's going to be hard even so, but never forget that you have recovered an awful lot of time and future in one smart move.

cayce, #41: The counselor has heard this story many times before. The counselor has been trained to identify what's real and what isn't. Your friends have already given you a reality check. Just because your parents are good people doesn't mean they haven't done less-than-good things to you; no one is all of a piece. There's no reality-based reason to think that the counselor is automatically going to be on your mother's side -- that's the Goddamn Tapes talking.

If you can convince your mother to come to a few joint sessions with you, the results may be very revealing. And if she really, seriously believes that the problem is All Your Fault and has no idea how she could be contributing to it, she might very well agree. Refusal to consider it is a strong (but not infallible) indicator that she knows there's something hinky going on and doesn't want to be called on it.

I finally managed to get my parents to do some family counseling shortly after I graduated from college (but before I moved out permanently). That was an eye-opener! Y'see, they did confidently expect that they would present their side of an issue, I'd present my side, and the counselor would turn to me and say, "But Lee, your parents are right! Why don't you do what they say?" Having the counselor turn to THEM instead and say, "You may not agree with Lee's decision, but there's nothing wrong with it, and she's an adult and has the right to make decisions for herself" -- well, after only a few iterations of that, they refused to attend any more sessions.

Cayce, fwiw: when I had my nervous breakdown at 17, fell apart and dropped out of college, and then finally started therapy, my mother said to me, shortly before I started seeing the therapist I found for myself (as opposed to the one my parents found for me, who I hated), "don't try to blame this on us. It's not our fault."

Said it. Out loud.

Because our family was normal, damnit, so if there was anything wrong with me (and it wasn't just me being _dramatic_), it had to be me, not them.

Yeah.

My therapist, god bless her, did not care about blame or who was right or wrong. She wanted me to get better.

And I did.

And when I was in my late 30s, my mother apologized to me for not seeing the Asperger's or the depression. Which was huge for her. And for me, actually.

Best wishes to you.

Lila @40: "she tried pushing down on my head but I slipped out from under her hand, neener neener!"

::GRIN::

cayce @41: They always say that they don't know when things bother me because I don't mention them, or they would change, but every time I even try they twist my words.

"Heads, I win; tails, you lose." Um, yeah. While growing up in a crazy-making environment can undoubtedly impair one's communication skills, it is unlikely in the extreme that it is "your fault." (After all, who came first? You? Or them?) The ugly fact is that dynamics like these are almost specifically engineered to shift blame onto the victim.

I can't figure out what's real any more.

*BINGO* That's the object of the exercise. If you can't figure it out, then you need them to tell you, right?

cayce #41: This sort of reality check is a big part of what counselors of all sorts are for, and you already do know on some level what the truth is here. Also, trust your friends' judgment.

Help requested troubleshooting a persistent communications disconnect.

Twice now (once with my MiL, once with my husband), a specific situation has occurred in re the dishwasher and loading it, which got exactly the same (dysfunctional) reaction out of the other person, despite my increasingly deferential methods of attempting to communicate.

I R doin it rong, or else there's a fundamental chasm between my outputs and their inputs.

I should note that Husband and I have a moderately longstanding cold war where each of us has said the exact words, "The way you load the dishwasher drives me crazy," but I do try to regularly state to myself that many of the things we disagree on are opinion-based or matters of style, and that both ways result in equally clean dishes.

However.

Our new dishwasher (came with the new house) will not clean any surface of anything in the top tray that is not actively facing the water jets below it.

He and his mom have now both, separately, loaded the top densely full of bowls that are precisely vertical -- so only the upper (downward-facing) side of them will get washed.

I tend to load it with the dishes somewhat askew, so that all the eating surface of each bowl is downward-facing. I did this in the old dishwasher, too, but I have the advantage of having loaded and run (and been the next one to empty) this new dishwasher somewhere upwards of twenty times. I don't expect people on first contact with it to know all its foibles.

In each case where I said something like, "This dishwasher is weird, it only washes what's facing the jets, so those bowls need to slonch a little more so they get washed," the reaction was a glance of cold fury and a flounce away to another region of the house, sometimes accompanied with an explicit, "Fine, then YOU load it, if you don't like how I do it."

..... ?

I was supposed to ignore it and let the dishes come out dirty? I was supposed to wait until John has loaded it AND IMMEDIATELY EMPTIED IT enough times to have made the correlation himself (not damned likely, since I get to be The Dish Fairy these past months)? I was supposed to value their Sanctified, Rare Help deeply enough that it was worth it to me to redo their work (and offend them anew if they found out I had) without ever bringing it to their attention?

I have no idea how to handle this. But once was possibly a random bad mood; twice (especially from someone raised in the other one's household) looks distressingly like a pattern.

And I should note that I really, really don't EVER want to give the impression to anyone who is volunteering to help me out that I want to micromanage the help they give ... I just want to keep it from being hlep, if you see what I mean.

Lee #43 -
I'm 3.5 hours away, but part of my problem with counseling is that historically my mother has always been in charge of it, and often done much of the talking for me before leaving me with the counselor. We've done family counseling - it consisted of her and my stepfather naming in detail everything I did wrong and me sitting there not making a sound. I'm sure she'd gladly do it again.
Part of the reason I'm so nervous is because I know that no matter what my intentions, when I open my mouth tomorrow I'm not going to be able to say anything negative about my mother.

Melissa Singer #44 -
Oh, yes, my mother has said as much in the past week, among other things.

I can't see her apologizing - well, I can, but I can't see her changing. She just doesn't understand that the way things are for her is not how they are for everyone - she gets on better with my neurotypical sister, but my brother and I? Forget it.

Thank you. You too.

Jacque #45 -
Yeah. I'm learning that, slowly - I was recently informed by someone reliable that my default assumption should be that if I feel something, I have a good reason to feel that way. That one rocked my world a bit. (Also that an attempt to tell someone what to think or feel should be considered an instance of abuse until proven otherwise, which...likewise rocked my world, and has been helpful so long as I can identify what's going on before I get too far sucked in.)

"Heads, I win; tails, you lose" is the perfect way to describe it. I might take that phrase with me in the morning.

That's the thing - I was already around 11 by the time I moved in with them, and thoroughly traumatized. And I was a problem child - but I'm beginning to realize that "problem child" in her terms translates to "you resisted my attempts to violate your boundaries, abuse you, control you, and humiliate you." And that now I can start to look for my own words, to tell my own story.

cayce @48: I know that no matter what my intentions, when I open my mouth tomorrow I'm not going to be able to say anything negative about my mother.

So just keep your mouth shut—and hand them a print-out of your comments in this thread...?

I mean, like, why duplicate work?  :-)

She just doesn't understand that the way things are for her is not how they are for everyone

Wait—you said your mother, right? (IOW, BTDT, t-shirt long ago worn to dust.)

"problem child" in her terms translates to "you resisted my attempts to violate your boundaries, abuse you, control you, and humiliate you."

Again, a standard pattern. If you really want the snark to hit the fan, tell your mother that she should at least come up with some material that's, like, original. (I wonder if we don't see the beginnings of a bingo card here?)

...I do hope that if I start getting over the top with the snide, somebody here will gently point that out to me...?

It's just that...certain classes of misconduct, um, shall we say, don't bring out the best in me.

Bricklayer @ 47

I think at that point, I would impose the temporary condition "there is no dish fairy" and let him learn the hard way. There are no dishes that don't have scum on the bottom? Hunh, interesting. What do you think we should do about that?

No, wait, I take that back a little. I'd do that if I were feeling confrontation-averse. Ordinarily, I'd give him a bit of time and space to calm down, and then we'd have a serious talk about a whole slew of dynamics that I personally find troubling about that interaction.

But I'd probably start with a casual "so, help me understand what just happened, because I thought I was being neutral and letting you know about something I found out the hard way, so you didn't accidentally create extra work for yourself."

Generally, that's at some point followed by something like "So, help me find a way we can handle things like this in a positive way, because I want to be supportive of you and your needs, but I'm not okay with my having to do a lot of what feels to me like avoidable extra work."

But that's all after-the-fact stuff. If I wanted to avoid the problem in the first place, I'd make a point of mentioning it casually, in the midst of other general sorts of chatter, explicitly when he is not loading the dishwasher. "Oh, hey, I wanted to give you a head's up that I noticed this thing happening that you might want to know about." I wouldn't tell him how to solve it, actually. I'd just let him know about the trend, so he can decide what to do about it himself.

Once he's used to you bringing things up like that, you should be able to occasionally say things like "oh, hey, I meant to tell you earlier, I noticed that the dishwasher only seems to be washing things that are facing the jets. Sorry, I meant to tell you before it was relevant." (And when I do that, I use a very casual tone of voice and try to give my husband physical space, so that I'm not correcting the work he's doing over his shoulder, but instead we have some distance between us. I make sure I'm facing him obliquely, which helps defuse some of the feeling of confrontation, as does adopting a relaxed posture. And if I can get away with mentioning it from a position or location where I'm not even able to see the dishwasher, I do that, rather than come into the room to engage more directly over the activity in dispute.)

KayTei @52: That would lead to a whole slew of statements from him to the effect of have I noticed how much of a horrible sponging sponger I am, with my 7 years of unemployment and not even really staying on top of chores even with 3 days mostly 'off' of kid-caring (which partial week of daycare costs somewhere near to $10K/yr) ...

Umyeah. That's not even hypothetical, he's "warned" me with it twice in the last week (when I tried to raise issues of equity and parity, like "Hey, if I have to do the overnight kid shift AND get her up in the mornings AND watch her all day, can you please handle some portion of the bedtime routine so I can eat and respoon?"), along the lines of contemptuously saying, "Right, don't even go there, because I can go worse and harder and you keep saying you don't want me to yell at you about how inadequate you are."

I really wish we had less overwhelming stress in our lives, most particularly in regards to money. I also wish he had any idea how to respoon himself on purpose, instead of slowly regenerating them in the course of a normal, fairly-stressful routine ...

Because if any of those things were true, (a) he'd have much less assholeish reflex responses, (b) I'd be giving him less ammunition, and (c) we might have time, spoons, and money to attend couple counseling.

So tomorrow's homework for me is to drag my resume off the old hard drive it's on, and take friends up on their offer to help me figure out how to make it suck less ... I may not bring in enough to pay for her daycare (and if I can't, I can't work more than those 3 days), but contributing SOMETHING while simultaneously being quite obviously not lying around the house eating bonbons faffing about on the Internet all day ignoring my responsibilities will remove some of the fire from his overboiling pot.

@53 -- Resume-dusting sounds like a plan. I hope something fits in your schedule and it helps everyone gain more spoons (and money.)

The dishwasher sounds like a Thing -- there are some people who I have perfectly good relationships with until the Thing gets mentioned, and then both of us suddenly lose our heads. For whatever reason, we both have so much psychic trauma around the Thing that, even with the best of intentions, we can't deal with it rationally. The way we deal with it, mostly, is not engaging in in-depth conversations about the Thing ... but that's not necessarily possible with a Thing that impacts your day-to-day lives, and requires everyone to be on the same page.

Bricklayer #53: So, he is specifically threatening emotional abuse as retaliation for your attempting to (1) make a basic statement of fact about your new appliance, and (2) not be a doormat? No, you are not "Doing it Rong", he is taking advantage of you and then abusing you for not being a perfect housewife (yes, wife) who magically makes all the mess disappear.

Clearly, I'm not you, but in your place I'd be seriously reconsidering that relationship. And no, I don't think that's "just stress". It may be aggravated by stress, but it's still abusive behavior, and "it's just when he's stressed" is no better excuse than "it was the drink talking".

And clarifying my #55: Notice, I'm not saying DTMFA... but taking care of house and kids is damn well not "lazing about all day" -- in fact, it's rather more difficult than 8 hours in an office. Furthermore, those are his kids too, and pulling in a paycheck doesn't mean he gets to insult you for not taking 24/7 responsibility for them. Asking him to recognize that is entirely reasonable. For him to respond with threats is not.

Self-Correction: singular "kid".

David Harmon @55: Heard and accepted with all the love you intended to include. It would be much easier for both of us if I could just magically be a stereotypical 50s housewife for him, but it doesn't go well with the cyclical depression.

Basically we've just been spending over a year solid resenting the crap out of each other, which I know isn't healthy; I feel like he's doing scads of things that make me worse and then complaining when I GET worse, and he feels like I haven't been pulling anywhere near my 'half' of the load for, like, ever.

Ideally, I do know that there's a lot of kidchores and housechores that just HAVE to be mine in the current setup, because he has to has to bring in the income or we're so seriously f**ed, financially, it's nowhere near funny.

I don't need him TO step in and actually start pulling a solid half (or quarter) of the house- and kid-stress (though it would be lovely if he did). I'd really, really like some kind of acknowledgement from him that he's NOT doing so, though, and that his not doing so does mean my life kind of sucks right now.

Does that make any sense? A hug and cuddle and "I'm sorry it has to be like this, but it does, and I realize how much effort you're putting into it" statement would put me over the moon right now.

And a pony.

Or, failing that, a job that makes good use of my Massive Throbbing Verbal Skills. That'd be nice too.

I wonder if I can bother the multiple-award-nominated published novelist I used to beta-read for to write me a letter of recommendation? She was very impressed that I caught her accidentally warping the space-time continuum when none of her other proofers had.

And to clarify, the 'lazing about' he has problems with is what happens on days, like today, when the kid is in daycare from about 8AM until he comes back with her ca. 7PM. The problem there is my depression.

I think if I were our only childcare solution he'd be less pushy about me pulling my 'weight'. As it is, even if he doesn't think I'm doing my 'fair share,' he admits I'd be expensive to replace.

The days 'off' are definitely helping me cope better than I would if I had all weekday kid hours to myself -- part of why we got her in daycare in the first place was because I noticed myself totally running out of kid-related patience far before close of business Friday. But the other reason was to let me take classes to finish my degree and become more employable. Now that I have an AA, the next plan was to go on for the 4-year, but (a) the thought terrifies me right now and (b) ha ha ha with what money, so probably another employed interval is useful.

I'm very glad one of my birthday presents this year was enough binders (that fit the body I have NOW) to start thinking about interviewing places and having a hope in screaming hell of them taking me seriously as a dude.

Bricklayer: A hug and cuddle and "I'm sorry it has to be like this, but it does, and I realize how much effort you're putting into it" statement would put me over the moon right now.

<David has a sad for Bricklayer>

And a pony.

<bigger sad>

I wonder if I can bother the multiple-award-nominated published novelist I used to beta-read for to write me a letter of recommendation?

Definitely! That sort of thing is the core of what all the fad books call "networking". And from your description, it would barely qualify as "calling in a favor".

Also, being kneecapped by depression is not "lazing", it's "having a hole in your energy bucket".

Merricat @54 and anyone else wrassling with dishwasher issues:

The Dishwasher As Dysfunctional Family Member (wow, that's five years old already?)

Well, goodness, this conversation goes at a good clip. I'm honored to be featured at the top of the thread.

newly growing #8: So, so glad for you, I hope things continue to go well. The self-direction bit was especially good for me to read, I struggle with that.

Marith #17: I love calligraphy! If you do follow that inclination be sure to link your lettering here.

Jacque #19 I trust you've overcome any insecurities about commenting here?

Well, no, but not for the lack of a very warm welcome (thank you all!). I'm just reticent.

Bricklayer #53 That sounds tough all around, I hope some respite is coming for you. I have shades of that situation; I've been living off my brother's largesse for years now, and while I do help him and my SIL with the kids and cooking, I don't think the amount of help really feels adequate to anyone involved. He's a fair guy, but even so the "why don't you have a job" argument comes up in unrelated arguments with demoralizing results. Faffing around on the internet is my automatic escape.

Life is a mess, I think the best I can hope for is a graceful descent rather than a long messy slide along down the side of the pit.

FaultyMemory #28: Thank you for attribution concern. The internet being such a changing landscape, and copyright being so broken in my eyes, I'd rather not think about such things. But to clarify... *ahem* let it be known that my verse "Circled Strangers" is hereby under a (CC)-by-3.0 license.

All the talk of spoons here felt odd at first but by the 3rd mention I mostly understood. Context is amazing!

Stefan S. 63: If you enjoy original source material, here's where we got the terminology from.

Bricklayer: The pattern you're describing here... well, David said most of what I was thinking, but it also pings something personal I want to mention. What broke my marriage up was a cycle very similar to this. I was the primary wage-earner, I got laid off, I couldn't find a job and went spinning into situational depression, I wasn't pulling my weight (defined as job-hunting and keeping the house up, since I was there all day), there were financial stresses, we stopped being able to communicate, I was spending most of my time on Usenet and writing fanfic, we fought a lot. Sound familiar?

I think the marriage could have been saved if we'd gotten marriage counseling when we started noticing things going downhill. But we didn't have the money for it, and by the time things got desperate enough for us to try anyhow, he was already having an affair and all he wanted was out. Thank $DEITY we had no kids, because that made it possible to make a clean break.

Your descriptions are sounding a Huge Honking Flashing Red Alarm for me, because it looks like your relationship is heading down the same path. Is there any way at all that you can detach enough time/money for counseling now, before it reaches the point where counseling won't do any good?

Bricklayer and Lee #65: And suddenly I want to quote one of Ginger's comments, completely out of it's original context: to physiologists, stress is what an organism does in adverse situations. Distress is what happens when a stressed organism cannot alleviate the stress.

It occurs to me that this applies almost as well to psychology....

Bricklayer,

I read your and husband's struggles and the advice with great interest--as I've said earlier, I can see a bit of overlap between your husband's responses and mine.

Here's the thing, though--taking off on David Harmon @ 60. Also, being kneecapped by depression is not "lazing", it's "having a hole in your energy bucket". You two are a couple; that means that if you (one) have a hole in your energy bucket, you (two) have a hole in your energy bucket. And the "endlessly struggling to keep some water in a bucket with a hole, when even without the hole it would be stressful" gets very wearing.

It's not an easy place to be.

Stefan@63: Thanks much for the explicit statement.

The topic of copyright doesn't come up much in the DFD threads. Nonetheless, many regulars in the larger Making Light community are authors, of one stripe or another, whose livelihoods depend on respect for copyright. It's only fair to our hosts and fellows that we show such respect as is due.

Wow, thanks for the congratulations and best wishes, everyone! :D *hugs to them as wants 'em, happy smiles to the rest*

Also, best wishes back at y'all, especially the ones currently in bad situations. :-( *sympathy*

Nancy Lebovitz @15: "dysfunctional (unhappy?) families are a conspiracy of silence." - YES. There have been so, so many things I'm "not supposed to talk about"; I'm sure a lot of y'all know what I mean. Dirty little family secrets that nobody's allowed to [stretching a metaphor] wash and hang up to dry. It always makes me kind of suspicious-face now when I hear someone express guilt about "airing dirty laundry in public".

(Also, that looks like an interesting interview! *bookmarks*)

Jacque @19: "this is an eternally ongoing process. The day may very well come, however, when you look back and realize that all those nightmarish things you used to struggle with are but a distant memory." - I'm hoping so. :-) At the very least, I am determined to clear out a lot of the knee-jerk "DISAPPROVE OF THAT" reactions I've had implanted in my brain, in favor of attitudes based on facts and careful thought. (Which is, yeah, just about as slow as it sounds. o_O But I have a lot of them tagged for removal / closer examination, anyway. *g*)

& @39: "I began collecting habits, skills, beliefs, and practices from them that supported that way of being." - Ooh, other people do that too? I think I've been trying to do that all my life, with various degrees of success (but succeeding more as I get a better understanding of my goal and more material to work with). Most of mine are from fictional people, especially in books or comics (Chris Claremont, and more recently Diana Wynne Jones, for the win), because it's easier for me to understand how behaving in X way / being X type of person works when their thought-processes are written out for me to analyze.

Firefly @25: "It's a birdcage, though. Many tiny little bars, and I don't think, anymore, that anything I say or do is going to take them all away." - SO. MUCH. THIS. What an evocative image. I never quite put it that way to myself (my go-to image was of an uncontrolled trainyard with cars whizzing in all directions and occasionally crushing me between them), but yes: I know exactly what you mean. :S I wish you good luck with flying the coop and building your own nest so that you have a safe place from which (if you want) to try to help others! *g* (I'm in the middle of that myself.)

"But how to explain that to someone who's only ever seen the nice side?" - Quoted for truth. o_O

two generations removed @36: Thank you. This is a helpful analogy. :-) (And yes to this: "I don't have any of the close, lifelong "best friendships" others seem to have". I'm hoping, as I learn more about what healthy relationships look like and how they function, I'll also learn to form them with other people.)

cayce @41: "I don't know if I can admit to myself that it wasn't just my fault for being a difficult child." - Aw, man. I remember being at that stage. It was the most brain-breaky thing (I didn't have a counsellor / therapist, because my mum "doesn't trust them" i.e. realized she wouldn't be able to control what kind of ideas they might put into / unearth in my head, but I did have a few good friends who were telling me basically what yours are telling you.) I wish you all the best of luck in finding your way to a better place. *sends many good wishes*

(Please ignore this if it's hlepy, but: in my case one of the things that helped was journaling - sorting out my thoughts and feelings on a given incident or set of incidents, in a locked Word document. I type a little bit faster than my internal censor can work, so it was good for getting me to spill things to myself that I wouldn't have admitted just thinking, and then looking at them in black and white and going "you know, that's really kind of messed up". The fun part was when my... my survivor's heart? The little, un-crushable part of me that had survived everything, hidden and beaten down but not dead... came out to play and took on its own voice and persona, to encourage me and fuss at me / kick my arse when me-myself just wanted to go "you know, they're right, I'm no use" and lie down and die. Which is not exactly technically sane [sorry, my mom has a terror of any hint of mental illness / non-neurotypicality in her family *tags that for possible weeding*], but hey - it worked. :S You'll probably find your own workarounds, completely different from mine, but I thought this was weird enough that you or someone else might find it helpful / encouraging. *g*)

& @49: "I'm beginning to realize that "problem child" in her terms translates to "you resisted my attempts to violate your boundaries, abuse you, control you, and humiliate you."" - Quoted for truth / agreement.

Moonlit Night @42: ""Really truly moved out" triggered a noticeable improvement in my mother's treatment of me" - I think it might be for me too. I have to keep on going "no, I'm not relying on them for anything, I'm going to do all the things myself", but... there were a couple of incidents (read: screaming matches) both before and after I moved out where I made it very clear (with the help of some PMS, ahem) that if they wanted any sort of contact with me at all after I get my degree and can choose where I live / travel, they would jolly well let me define the boundaries. So far, it may be working out? *fingers crossed* I've taken a couple rides to mutual-friends' parties with them when I couldn't get any other rides, and they haven't tried to talk me into staying with them longer than I planned. And they don't telephone me much or fuss that I don't call more often. There are still... hints, you know, tests of "do you really mean it?", but I think the longer I do really mean it the - well, the better-trained they'll get. *wry face*

"I know it's going to be hard even so, but never forget that you have recovered an awful lot of time and future in one smart move." - :D *puts on stickynote* (My computer desktop is so full of virtual stickynotes with encouraging noises on them. Well, also story notes and research notes and funny quotes from Neil Gaiman's blog, but mostly encouraging things people have said to me. :D)

Melissa Singer @44: "my mother said to me... "don't try to blame this on us. It's not our fault."" - MINE TOO. O_O Almost exactly. I asked about family counseling and she said "You're the one who needs counseling, not us!" :P (And my gaslighting!sister used to say I shouldn't consider moving out because "the problem is inside you". o_O)

Bricklayer @59: best of luck on being taken seriously as a dude. I'm not even starting to think about that yet (so many obstacles, so little safety net), but thankfully I also don't have too much dysphoria to deal with. o_O

newly growing @69: I've started taking baby steps. I finally said to our near-side neighbor (who has three kids and a playset, as we have one kid and a playset; these kids are going to grow up together, barring catastrophe/move), "Hey, this is a little odd, but I wanted to bring it up earlier rather than later, given how our last neighbors went. A lot of people don't seem to get it right away, but I'm a dude, married to another man, with a kid. Is this going to be a problem?"

He immediately asked if Beka was adopted, a question I hadn't (DUMBASS) prepared for. I stambled around a little; I now think my new prepped answer for that is going to be, "That's complicated. But we're the only parents in the picture, for her," which I think is why he was asking, given that earlier he'd asked a lot of questions about how my sister and I are related (when it became clear we weren't fullsies).

Now I have to make sure I don't go out in the yard 'commando' and swinging loose in the breeze, much, so as to make the adjustment easier for them ... the new binders can't come soon enough!

More complicated disclosures about my past and Beka's genesis and whatnot can wait till after they've worn a groove in their thinking about my gender, methinks. That's not lying, right? It's just 'not bringing up,' like one might if (a) my parents were celebrities, (b) we had a long and difficult family medical issue history, like on-again-off-again cancer or something ... etc?

Regular readers will understand that my relationship with my mother is not fixed and probably never will be (she's nearly 80; I'm 52), but I wanted to make that clear for those who may not know.

Our relationship has gone through a lot of ups and downs. It was good when I was young because I was subservient. It was even pretty good when I was living at home after dropping out of college, even though I was in therapy at the time and learning about who I really was. Because the bad was going out in the therapy? Because I understood that the "me" I showed her wasn't the real me? Because I spent part of almost every weekend somewhere else, with people who knew the real me?

Once I moved out we simmered along reasonably well on a superficial level until I reproduced, and then things went to hell in a handbasket, because there was a firm line in the sand. My mother could mess me up, or try to mess me up, all she wanted, but she was Not Going To Do That to My Kid.

And she hasn't.

But holding that line has destroyed nearly everything important in my relationship with my mom. I do my duty by her, but without much heart. And every time I think she might have learned something from the last time I told her to Stop That and relax enough to let her in a little bit, she does something that makes me slam the walls back up.

So that apology was a major high point in my life, and one I'll never see again, I think.

I miss my dad. (He died 9 years and 3 days ago.)

Melissa, #41 & newly growing, #69: The version I got was, "Why don't you go and get the mental help YOU need? We'll pay for it!" And for quite a long time they brushed off any suggestion I made about family counseling, because they didn't have any problems except me.

The family counseling sessions I mentioned upthread... well, that's sort-of-funny-now. I have no idea who finally convinced them that it might be worthwhile, but my mother came to me and said in tones of great trepidation, "Lee, if your father and I were to go to family counseling, would you CONSIDER coming with us?" Just as though I hadn't begged them to do it over and over again for years. And then of course it turned out not to be the Magic Fix Lee Button, and they dropped it like a hot rock.

Mostly mentioning this because it's useful for people who are having that crap said/done to them to know that it's a very common pattern.

Bricklayer @70: Agreed: it's not lying, it is just "not bringing up". If you form a friendship with them, then you can give them the full story.

As long as I'm posting, I want to comment on the sleep apnea mini-thread, violently in favor of anyone who thinks they might have it getting tested and treated. They gave me a machine, I tried it, and the very next morning I woke up, actually rested for the first time in about five years!, thinking oh my god I had forgotten what this felt like! That was six years ago, and I've missed all of one night since.

I will say that if the machine's noise is able to keep Megpie71's SO awake, then he must not have it very bad.

Sleep apnea: My CPAP machine is completely silent* when on. Not all of them are, and I don't know how to tell which is which without trying them. But silent ones do exist.

*The first night I had it, it wasn't hooked up right, and there was a medium-loud white-noise sound from the air escaping around the base of the hose. But once I got it connected right, it was fine.

Bricklayer @ 58 and beyond...

That sounds seriously harsh, and I'm sorry to hear you're going through that.

We're in a somewhat similar situation, right now, and there are a few things that help us to control that dynamic. I have also been the primary home-carer in the past, and I know how stressful it is, how much work it is, and how it felt for me. I understand depression and re-spooning, first-hand. And we both come from strong feminist homes, so there's a definite shared value that home-caring is hard work and an important contribution.

When I start to break it down that way, it sounds to me as if the difference between our two situations is that your husband is... to put it as kindly as possible... pretty damned clueless about your day-to-day reality. It looks like a glaringly broad empathy and experience gap, from over here.

I want to support the idea of relationship counseling, by the way. I'm not sure, with the dynamic between you as it is now, that he can objectively hear what you're saying. And it doesn't sound like he values your experience, where it doesn't match his own. Somebody else saying "No, dude, that's real. Back off." might help bring him around.

At the risk of being either hlepy or obvious, I also wonder if you're satisfied with the way you and your doctor are managing your depression, these days. Some of what you're describing are things that my husband and I both tend to do, when our depression management strategies aren't quite up to the current task. That may mean acknowledging that if that's what you have to do to be emotionally stable, then those health-management tactics (such as faffing around the Internet) should be part of your priorities, even sometimes to the exclusion of less-important stuff, like housekeeping.

Bricklayer @70: It's definitely not lying, it's just not disclosing fairly personal details with people you don't know that well yet. I mean, I don't generally discuss the contents of my underwear with my neighbours either; in my case, said contents happens to be more or less what they'd expect based on my dress and external appearance, but that doesn't mean that any discrepancy would compel me to disclose it to them at any particular point in our relationship.

elise @61: anyone else wrassling with dishwasher

Last time Jon Singer visited, it was on short notice, so the house was a serious train-wreck when he arrived. Day or two in, he took it upon himself to do the dishes, using my dishrinserwasher. When I got home, he was all kinds of preemptively apologetic about possibly overstepping, and maybe having gotten the loading wrong, and like that.

After winching my jaw up off the floor (and deducing that this had been, like, a thing with some of his other cohabitants), I put the dishes away, and as I did so, went to some considerable effort to reassure him that: if someone (a guest, for crissake) is going to go to the time and effort to do housework in my home that I haven't bestirred myself to do, the very last thing I'm ever going to do is give them any little lip about how they did it. What, am I stupid!?

(Well, in point of fact, this is where my "choosing the kind of person I want to be" mentioned above comes into play: there was a time when I would have given a cohabitant grief for Doin It Rong.)

newly growing @69: You will pardon me, I hope, if I visualize this as a newly-hatched dinosaur/dragon, with beautiful, soft, snuggly, shiny, irridescent plumage: bright, piercing eyes, and very sharp and pointy teefs. ;-)

my mom has a terror of any hint of mental illness / non-neurotypicality in her family

Yup. Definitely populating a bingo card here.

Bricklayer @70: More complicated disclosures about my past and Beka's genesis and whatnot can wait till after they've worn a groove in their thinking about my gender, methinks. That's not lying, right?

Correct, that's not lying. Not even by omission. That's revealing as much about yourself as you feel appropriate. E.g., Privacy and Boundaries. In your place, I wouldn't disclose that stuff any more than I would discuss the contents of a letter to my best friend, or what goes on between me and my gastroenterologist.

@41, @69, & @72: WRT to family counseling, I gather it's pretty typical for families and couples to go into therapy with the dominant, power-holding individuals saying some variation of: "I'm fine, really! You just need to fix him/her/them." It's vanishingly rare for a power-holder to approach it with the question: "How can I fix what I'm doing to improve the situation?"

Sorta like my guinea pigs: I have five boys. They are each of the opinion that this is four boys too many. Who the extra boys are depends entirely on who you ask.

Jacque @77: "a newly-hatched dinosaur/dragon, with beautiful, soft, snuggly, shiny, irridescent plumage: bright, piercing eyes, and very sharp and pointy teefs. ;-)"

EEEEEEE I LIKE THIS. I am a wee dragosaur! With pointy teefs. XD I... sort of want to ask a friend for art of this now, for a new default LJ icon. May I?

Sleep apnea mini-thread: How does one go about getting tested? Who does one call first? Is this a specialist thing, or a garden-variety primary care provider thing, or...?

Probably apnea sufferer: my husband. Problem with getting him tested: Not enough hours in the day for him, feeling aimless and lost as far as finding the right people to call for me. The usual excuses. I suck at figuring out how to deal with new medical issues (Let's not even get into the slowly healing jammed finger that I'm not sure whether I should show to someone, and if so, who?); he sucks at buckling down and scheduling things as he is perpetually in a state of Overwhelmed Busy.

Gentle tips and pointers welcomed.

johnofjack @14: Abuse survivors: do you ever develop an internalized sense of normal human interaction? I don't think I have one, or at least: a great deal of situations make me freeze completely because I don't know how to react.

I know exactly what you mean about freezing. I just don't...have a template for some things. As time goes on, though, I do seem to be developing a stronger/more confident sense of the patterns of normal behaviour. I don't go all deer-in-the-headlights anymore when a friend hugs me, for example (granted, I start to feel uneasy if it lasts more than a few seconds, but it's no longer...terra incognita; I've figured out how to deal with it in a semi-normal way.)

I think part of the Thing here is that I have strongly rejected many of my parents' behavioural patterns, but refusing to act in certain ways doesn't mean I know what to replace them with, in a given situation. Knowing one wrong answer doesn't tell you what a right one is, or even steer you away from other wrong answers.

So sometimes it is really hard to figure out what I should do or say, especially if I'm on the spot and don't have much time to think about it. Humans are complicated; there are lots of rules as to what constitutes normal/healthy interaction, and usually nobody tells you what they are or explicitly* tells you when you break them (not that I blame them for it; under most circumstances that would be a Difficult Conversation, and one that would risk giving offense.)

*These days I can usually figure out when I've broken some rule, though it might take some thinking about it afterwards before I realize where I went wrong and what I should have said instead. I'm a lot better than I used to be at detecting this, and at avoiding falling into a social faux pas to begin with. But sometimes I do wish, wistfully, that more people would just explain what you did wrong and should have done instead. It would have helped so much when I was in my early twenties...(in fairness, I probably could have gotten some of that kind of feedback if I'd asked for it - but I would have felt I needed to give some sort of explanation of why I needed it, and I don't think I could have managed that; it ran too close to things I just couldn't talk about then. It's still hard to talk about,** though these days my closest friends do know about [some of] the abuse and how it's affected me.)

**and hard to feel like I have a right to expect anyone to believe I was abused, or to treat my perceptions about my own feelings as reasonable and correct. (Yup, I can totally play Abuse Bingo too.)

Nicole @79
Sleep apnea mini-thread: How does one go about getting tested? Who does one call first?

Depending on your insurance, you may need to go through your primary care provider. You'll end up at a pulmonologist, or maybe a stand-alone sleep lab. (Kaiser is wonderful this way: sleep apnea leads to so many bad things that they're happy to treat it, and you may be able to refer yourself.)

(Let's not even get into the slowly healing jammed finger that I'm not sure whether I should show to someone, and if so, who?)

Primary care provider again, leading to an orthopedist. If you have insurance, it's worth making sure all the fingerbones are doing as they ought.

Nicole@79: It isn't a garden-variety primary care provider thing, but that's the place to start: call him or her up and say, "I have reason to believe that my husband has sleep apnea, can you provide a referral for a sleep study?" Whether or not your insurance requires that, your doctor is likely much more qualified to pick out a sleep lab than you are.

If your husband does get treated for apnea, he may well find himself with more energy than previously, which might help with the Overwhelmed Busy. (Or not, don't know him well enough to say.)

In addition to not being sleep-deprived all the time, by the way, my machine has stopped me having nighttime acid reflux. That had got to the point that I had to give up eating my favorite brand of ravioli (made by a local delicatessen), and had a chronic cough owing to a perpetually irritated esophagus; fixing that alone would make using the machine worth it.

(It isn't that alone, of course: the cake is not being in a perpetual state of nagging drowsiness like I'd been up for 18 hours, not having acid reflux is just tasty icing. Reducing a heightened risk of diabetes, heart attack, stroke, and senile dementia might then be a yummy fruit filling in between the layers...and maybe I should stop before the Metaphor Police haul me away.)

Nicole (79): I didn't need a referral for insurance purposes, but I called my primary care provider* for a recommendation of where to go. It turned out to be a pulmonologist connected to a local sleep lab, one that wasn't even coming up in my own searches. As David Goldfarb said, your doctor is likely much more qualified to pick out a sleep lab than you are.

*my cardiologist rather than my internist, actually

newly growing @78: EEEEEEE I LIKE THIS. I am a wee dragosaur! With pointy teefs. XD I... sort of want to ask a friend for art of this now, for a new default LJ icon. May I?

Please do.

Lynne @80: I have strongly rejected many of my parents' behavioural patterns, but refusing to act in certain ways doesn't mean I know what to replace them with, in a given situation. Knowing one wrong answer doesn't tell you what a right one is, or even steer you away from other wrong answers.

I have slowly doped out an algorithm for dealing with situations like this. Two questions are prominent:

1. "What do I want?"

2. "What kind of person do I want to be?"

Which question will be ascendant depends a lot on the situation. Frex, when somebody wants to hug me: Do I like them? Do I want to encourage this behavior? Am I comfortable with it? The answer is usually yes, in which case I just go with it and/or behave encouragingly. I've encountered a few cases where I am not comfortable with it; being kind and loving != doormat, so I will step back, and block aggressively if necessary.

Being able to make that evaluation at a moment's notice takes (a) a lot of practice and (b) a lot of pre-calculation, so I know at least the general parameters of my preferences.

I have lately concluded, for example, that my tendancy to freeze in a conflict situation is not a bad thing. It's an entirely reasonable desire to want to (a) not make the situation worse in the heat of the moment and (b) want to wait for calmer circumstances to unpack a situation and draw conclusions about how I want to handle it.

Paradoxically, having given myself this permission, I actually am finding that I'm more likely to have the internal information I need at the moment it's called for.

Another class of examples: I've occassionally felt chagrinned when my interest in or affection for someone is rebuffed; castigating myself for overstepping. But this is where question 2 comes in: As long as I am respecting their boundaries and their preferences, it's okay if I like them. Furthermore, it's okay if I express that. I'm not doing anything "wrong" by liking them and saying so.

It sounds to me, Lynne, like you are entirely on the right track. What makes this-all the very bitch is that humans are complicated ('s why we've got these big brains, by all accounts). Growing up in dysfunctional circumstances compounds the complication by orders and factors; not only do you have to learn what's right, you also have to sort through all the myriad wrong and confusion to get to it. It takes a long time.

In other words: UR DOIN IT RITE.

Still reading and witnessing. Just caught up on the previous thread, one of these days I'll have a go myself with a post. I will say that much of what has been talked about has been helpful to me, though I won't go into specifics under my regular 'nym.

I did notice this that I can maybe help with:
Jacque @ #19:

I tried finding a coffeemaker that would wake me in the morning with hot tea. No joy (only programmable ones I find are, like, huge). *sigh*

Hmm. Appliance timer, cheap "hotpot" style water boiler, of the kind that has no switch - plug in, get heat. It'll make hot water on time, but you have to dump it into the cup/add the teabag. Or, you can put the teabag in the water overnight and it will be heated up on time after a long, cold steep. Not sure on the flavor effects of that... Either way, you'll need to time the hotpot for your usual size cuppa and make sure to set the appliance timer to turn off again after it is hot enough/before it has boiled dry.

Alternate: "hotel room size" coffeemaker, put teabag in pot. If not programmable, use appliance timer. May need to fiddle with it if it won't come on when plugged in with the switch in the on position, or if it is a push to start type. (duct-tape button down, set appliance timer to turn "off" 30 min after turning "on", or similar)

Alternate: programmable one-cup coffeemaker. Put teabag in cup. Found one on Amazon for less than $30, that has a reservoir in it for the brewed product - put the teabag(s) there, and shove mug under it to get brewed product. 7.5" x 11" x 13.5" or so in size, not sure what you consider "huge".

More ideas available, but I'm often behind on threads here.

newly growing @69 -
Yeah. I've had a friend and a roommate recently tell me, flat-out, that my mother is controlling and manipulative and not very nice. Only in much stronger words.

Not hlepy! I've been journaling for many years, and trying to make electronic journals work for the past three because they're more secure. You've just made me realize why they don't work the way pen and paper always have - my internal censor works too quickly for my typing to keep up! I've been scribbling on scrap paper lately and feeling weird about it - maybe I need to switch back entirely.

I know what you mean about the uncrushable part of you, though. My metaphors are a little different, but the night all of this was triggered, I had a moment of clarity that I wish would come back and stick around - and a feeling like a part of myself I'd thought was gone had woken up again. (And then I fell asleep and dreamed I was a dragon, except I also spent most of the dream in human form, but in the right gender - anyway, dragons. Seem to be a thing.)

Ohhh yes, that sounds familiar. My (12 years younger) brother and I are both pretty definitely on the spectrum, diagnosed with lists of things that cover the criteria separately - but mention the autism word and my mother will freak out. Not her brilliant genius children, no! We're just special snowflakes. Facepalm.

cayce @86: If you prefer the feel of pen and paper, but want the security of electronica, maybe try Evernote and scan your writing in once you're finished, then destroy the original and encrypt the scan? Evernote *can* do OCR on handwriting, and search on it.

Jennifer Baughman @87 -
I love Evernote! I've been using it for years, though, and I have too much stored in my account - accessing it from anything except the android app is impossibly slow. I might try that, though, if I can find a scanner around campus. One of the other things I like about going electronic is the search function and/or tags, so it's worth a try. Otherwise I think I'll end up typing them all by hand...once you've known the wonder of indexing systems, it's hard to go back ;)

newly growing @69: If your mom, like mine, grants respect for taking independence (versus asking for it), then it could well be true for you too. At the very least I expect your mom is going "oh shit, I can't fully control her now" and figuring out how to deal with that, whether she knows it or not.

Sometimes I regret/beat myself up about mostly losing my twenties (from 18 to 31 if you're being harsh) as serious productive time, because it took most of that time to realize anything had even been wrong at all. My parents were virtuosos at making things impossible and making their abuse/enabling normal and invisible. I can forgive myself for 0-18, but not so much for after that, even though I know, now, that I probably deserve the forgiveness.

But being able to tell you that you're doing much better already and will keep on doing so makes up for it a little bit. I mean, my therapist thinks that I'm a minor miracle -- I'm not dead, suicidal, schizophrenic, obsessive-compulsive, or hopelessly depressed, dependent or neurotic, despite having enormous reason to be any and all of the above -- and you can be a better one. Go be a better miracle for me.

This would include doing some serious travel! I always longed to do that but was convinced it was "impossible." And now, with student loans due and looming potential unemployment, it's fiscally irresponsible, so I STILL have to put it off.

Jacque @84: Hmm. I quite like that algorithm; I will have to remember that. Those two questions, "What do I want?" and "What kind of person do I want to be?" have certainly played a role in some of my choices, but not in a very organized or conscious way, and I hadn't isolated them as...relevant considerations for on-the-spot decisionmaking. I think they would be helpful.

Also, thank you for the encouragement. :) I sometimes feel like - I've managed to reach an adequate level of social-interaction-skillz in many situations, so nobody bats an eye, but also...no one but me actually recognizes how far I've come to get to that point. And then of course there are the times I'm not quite adequate, and it's still been really hard to get to that point, which is discouraging. I feel like the times I Do It Rite are utterly invisible, and people only notice when I'm Doin It Rong. But - I'm trying to learn to be gentler with myself and less self-critical about stuff,* and I'm going to keep on keeping on. Someday maybe I will be the kind of person I want to be.

*I would never ever inflict the level of vitriol on anyone else that I do on myself, or judge anyone else one tenth as harshly. Is there not something wrong there? I know it with my rational mind...but I have to convince my emotional self, and replace those old patterns with healthier ones. I'm getting better. Slowly, and not without backward steps, but I am.

And speaking of being gentler with yourself...Moonlit Night @89: Sometimes I regret/beat myself up about mostly losing my twenties (from 18 to 31 if you're being harsh) as serious productive time, because it took most of that time to realize anything had even been wrong at all. My parents were virtuosos at making things impossible and making their abuse/enabling normal and invisible. I can forgive myself for 0-18, but not so much for after that, even though I know, now, that I probably deserve the forgiveness.

You DO. It takes so long to process and unravel some of that stuff. I'm in my early thirties, and am only now at an emotional and psychological point that - well, that I probably would have reached ten years ago, if my starting point hadn't been so screwed up. Some things take time. Even reaching the point where you can start to acknowledge your parents were abusive can take a long time, in my case, and in yours too, it sounds like. That is not. your. fault. It's just the hand you were dealt.

I hope you get to do some traveling in the next few years (and find a job you like that gives you the resources to be able to do that!)

David Goldfarb @73

Actually, I think part of the problem is he has one of those over-amped brains that notices everything and keeps firing all the time. Certainly his hearing seems to be a lot sharper than mine (but then, I'm slightly hard-of-hearing anyway because of constant middle-ear problems as a kid) and he can pick up noises which I wouldn't otherwise notice. As a result, it takes him a lot longer to mentally "shut down" than it would for someone else (such as myself), and any little thing can distract him back to full awareness.

Lynne @90
I would never ever inflict the level of vitriol on anyone else that I do on myself, or judge anyone else one tenth as harshly.

At the risk of hlepiness, these are depressingly common habits of mind, and I'd like to just mention a couple of strategies for shifting them.

When someone (even me) says something self-sabotaging, I want to know: "Would you say that to someone you liked?" Or I might growl, "You'd best not be beating up on my friend. I won't have it."

As a spiritual practice (like making it a point to breathe every time you go through a doorway) whenever I hear myself thinking something mean (frex: i drop something and curse my clumsiness) I will say out loud whatever the opposite is: "I am a marvel of gracefulness!" "It's wonderful that I always know where my keys are!" "I am completely organized."

At the very least, the apparent absurdity can make me giggle. At best, when I hear myself praised for gracefulness, somehow gracefulness manifests itself more often. (And I really do always know where my keys are these days.)

@90 & @92: Here's a really silly thing that helped me a whole lot:

I started working on being kinder to my computer. More specifically, when it succcessfully performs a function, especially if it has to labor at it some, I praise it. Thank it, pat it on the case, and tell it that it's a good computer.

Two reasons I think this has been effective:

1. It's easier and more effective to do something than to not do it. (Praise it when it's good, rather than not having a tantrum it when it's bad.)

2. Other than with myself, the computer is the relationship that soaks up by far the largest part of my waking life. Therefore, it offers massive opportunity for practicing a skill.

cayce @86: I've been scribbling on scrap paper lately and feeling weird about it - maybe I need to switch back entirely.

Julia Cameron, talking about Morning Pages in The Artists Way, contends that, for really deep contemplative work, handwriting is preferable, because it accesses experience at a deeper level.

I'm not a hundred percent sure I buy that. But I do know that, for me at least, the kinesthetics of hand-writing versus typing are very different. It's reasonable that this would evoke different internal states.

Jacque @94 The other thing about handwriting Morning Pages is that you're supposed to keep writing, not go back and edit, and if you're typing on the computer it's harder to suppress the temptation to backspace and fix something, even just a typo. And then you're out of the free-flowing brain and back in editor mode.

I got quite a bit out of The Artist's Way at Work, which somebody recommended here on ML some years ago.

Not directly in-line with the conversation, but certainly related to the self-abuse issues being discussed:

Often, I get repeated, intrusive fantasies, generally about dealing with abusive bosses at work. The problem with this is that even at the Job From Hell, none of the bosses were half that nasty (the problems there were more systemic), not to mention that I haven't worked in an office in 15 years....

It was generally pretty obvious that the appearance of these was linked to current frustrations or angers... but eventually I also realized that these were not at all "about" what they seemed to be... in fact, they were using the office to represent my own internal processes, my own self-attacks and self-backstabbing. I've been slowly starting to translate them, based on the same principle used for dream interpretation: Everyone, and even the more active "things", in such a narrative, are all parts of myself. There are some recurrent figures that I haven't really pinned down, and cases where I don't really understand what they're "really saying", but in general, this is helping to "lay" the annoying intrusions, and occasionally giving bits of self-insight.

Moonlit Night @89: Tell you what, if you forgive yourself for 18-31, I'll forgive myself for 18-37. ;)

It hurts, doesn't it, to look back and think, 'if only'. To wonder what you could have been. To try to figure out why you didn't do something sooner. To wish you could go back with what you know now, and fix things "when it mattered".

But it still matters. We can't change the past. And I think that we survivors did the best that we could with what we had and who we were, and that should be--if not celebrated, then at least acknowledged. We muddled through. We're here, now, and that's an achievement, even if it doesn't seem like it.

It's okay to be a work in progress. And we still have time to be the better miracles we want to be.

Jacque @94, OtterB @95 - I've always had to sneak up on my brain. When I was younger and wrote more, people would gift me fancy journals and they'd lie on a bookshelf getting dusty while I carried around my battered composition books.

I had an art professor who summed it up perfectly with her painting habits - when she starts a new watercolor or anything else requiring expensive paper or canvas, she sprinkles the paper with vodka first so it's already ruined, and then starts painting. I learned so much from that class - working on 11x18 pieces for 4 hours at a time requires a lot of self-awareness and working through frustrations and anxiety, particularly for someone who is me and dyspraxic. Art taught me to be patient, aware, and value imperfections. It's been far too long since I've picked up a brush - I lost the habit in all of the stress recently. Maybe that's what I'll do this weekend.

David Harmon @96: Often, I get repeated, intrusive fantasies, generally about dealing with abusive bosses at work.

I think your interpretation and use of these fantasies is brilliant, and absolutely correct.

I don't get that sort of intrusive fantasy, but I do get intrusive fanfic vignettes. The main reason I gave up on writing fiction is that, having come to this insight, I have realized I'm not interested in fleshing out the story such that it would make sense/be interesting to anybody else. I just want to dwell in the scene with those characters, and let them do their process for me.

@69, @89, & @97: I am reminded of one of Barbara Sher's more brilliantly-titled books (although book titles seem to be a superpower for her): It's Only Too Late If You Don't Start Now.

cayce @98: It's been far too long since I've picked up a brush - I lost the habit in all of the stress recently. Maybe that's what I'll do this weekend.

I am repeatedly boggled at the magnitude of the positive effect that putting real time in on my artwork has on my overall well-being. (Even in spite of the fact that I tend to be chronically short on sleep as a direct result.) I think the health benefit is very similar to what one gets from meditation.

Jacque @19: If you look on Amazon.co.uk for "Teasmaid" or "Teasmade", there are lots of gadgets which will do what you want (e.g. "Swan Teasmade White". However, I can't find them on Amazon.com - not sure if there's one that will work on US power.

SpawnOfTheDevil @92: Not hlepy at all; I like strategies. :)

Jacque @93: You made me laugh. And pat my computer.

Jennifer Baughman @97: This, so much this.

To those talking about the meditative effects of making art, and the need to use only pre-ruined materials, Lynda Barry has written two books about this. When I say "written", I mean, compiled lots of thoughts and drawings on notebook paper and put them into book form. What It Is and Picture This are the titles. They are just amazing. She uses notebook paper for much the same reasons others cited, and in her creative writing seminars, she has the students draw a spiral to keep their hands moving until it's time to write. The body has its own memory.

@87, @88, and @94: One of my better compromises between paper and screen is a full-screen writing app (Writeroom in my case) with a font that looks like handwriting. It helps me write but is much more pleasant for editing than paper, and is easier on my hands than a pen. And since it's plain text I can't get hung up on formatting. On my lap on the couch also helps, versus at a desk.

Jacque #99: As I implied, I didn't invent that interpretation; I learned it from some book or other as a technique for interpreting dreams (the original idea was to "ask" each element of the dream what it wants, and/or what its purpose is).

David Harmon @104: I didn't invent that interpretation; I learned it from some book or other as a technique for interpreting dreams

But you did independantly extrapolate its use to waking fantasies. Hey! I extrapolated that use independantly, which is (IMnsHO) brilliant. How can I therefore give you less credit? Hm? :-)

Jacque @99 Mine aren't fanfic vignettes, but they are daydream vignettes in which I don't appear at all, and operate similarly. The same main character has been in perhaps a half dozen different settings or situations over the years. Somehow I knew I couldn't make a published piece of writing out of it and never tried, but I realized just a couple of years ago that this kind of process was at work and he was speaking for me. Largely, I think, I was building a setting and a backstory in which he seemed justified saying or doing the kind of things that I felt, but that seemed vastly melodramatic applied to my life. (The key line in the one where I realized this went, "I have tried and failed and tried and failed so many times that right now I do not know where to find the strength to keep on trying.")

Now that I've realized this, I have to put some effort into ignoring the process while it works itself out until the insight comes into view. I squash it if I analyze too soon.

Jennifer Baughman #97: Thank you for this. I'm another person with "lost years" -- not so much college (though damn, it would be nice to do it over "with what I know now"), but the 10 or 15 years after my second big crash (featuring listmod burnout, broken heart/half-elf glamour, and Grandpa's death). That earlier crash led pretty much in a straight line to the one that put me out of work and on disability....

Hello all,
I haven't been posting or reading--spoon shortage. Grateful the thread is open.
Venting: parents just called me to say they are losing their housekeeper(s) and would I just please move back in and be the one to stay home "to keep the house safe". Right. Um No.
The last time I spent the night there it was pretty clear that things hadn't changed, my things had been rearranged and a missing piece of clothing that I'd left hanging in a certain place was mysteriously returned and hidden in a pile of towels.
Now I am bracing for what is bound to be a fight, the guilt piled on and the accusation that I am selfish for trying to live apart from the terrible emotional suckage of their reality distortion fields. I had to ask a friend to pick me up from my parents' house to take me out of the village to somewhere where I could get a ride back to the apartment. Now hunkered down. Not so good with teh spoons. But grateful that I didn't buckle down and return there. Is it so terrible of me to not want to spend time with people who have beaten me up, stolen my paychecks, hidden my clothes and kitchen things, and interfered with friends or relatives trying to help me branch out and get out of there? Sigh. The answer seems to be No. But I grew up with this mantle of being the difficult ingrate and insolent daughter pointing out teh flaws and struggling for "rights you don't have", as my father put it. 'What rights?" said my sister, as she slammed me against the refrigerator in an argument. Ack.

Let's hope the door that I currently keep locked holds for now.
Not that I think they are going to storm the apartment door, but then again, they tried that 3 months ago. What made the door storming more painful was that my mother had dragged my sibs' little kids with her on the pretext of visiting me, the Aunt. I wasn't about to be blackmailed into going back with them.

PTSD sucks all right. One might argue that the threat of physical harm wasn't and isn't there anymore, that the powers that be aren't displeased or angry, they just need me to be a good little cog in the machine and all will be well. Sigh. I have these circular bouts of unreason.

Moonlit Night @89: I'm in my mid-40s and just starting to figure some stuff out. Some eight months ago I was pushed into a leadership (volunteering) role. Much to my surprise, I'm doing it well (by all accounts) and after some difficult stuff at the beginning* it's not taking too many spoons to deal with. In fact, very much to my surprise, I'm learning that I can be a good leader, that I enjoy encouraging other people to do stuff and improve, and that other people seem to think I'm doing a good job at this. I've been through a period of mourning what might-have-been, wondering what more I might have done with my life, what leadership roles I might have taken, what options I might have had the self-confidence to pursue, if I hadn't had early experiences which taught me that nobody would listen to me/ nobody was interested in my opinion/ nobody wanted my ideas/ if I spoke up I'd just be ignored at best or actively ridiculed at worst, so why not stay quiet and avoid being embarrassed again?

Next I suppose I have to work at accepting that those years are gone, and working on what I -can- do with the years I have ahead.

* Stuff to do with someone else behaving badly, with everyone else telling me clearly that it was the other person behaving badly, and that it was not my fault, and that I was handling it very well. This actually had a whole load of positive spin-offs.

ma larkey @ 108

Good for you, standing up for yourself!

And, just in case you need some reaffirmation: The question of "what rights?" is answered "your rights, as a human being, an independent adult, and an equal citizen in the country of your choice..." Those are not rights your family has the authority to grant or remove. They are, however, rights that you are perfectly justified to defend from your family's attempts to limit them.

I just want to make clear that society, morality and the law are generally on your side in this.

OtterB @106: The same main character has been in perhaps a half dozen different settings or situations over the years.

I have a whole cast (different aspects of myself, we presume), although they come and go depending on the "story", plus whole worlds and a cosmology. (I've been at this a long time, can you tell? (counts on fingers) Nearly 50 years.) It's a great place to put characters I feel aren't getting sufficient play in my favorite TV shows.* Occassionally I run into time-frame issues. Is my ficton contemporaneous, like Stargate? Or is it off in the future, like Star Trek? I try not to worry too much about that. And my characters are not averse to going off on time traveling jaunts, although that's less interesting to me now than in past years.

I was building a setting and a backstory in which he seemed justified saying or doing the kind of things that I felt, but that seemed vastly melodramatic applied to my life.

Yup, exactly!

"I have tried and failed and tried and failed so many times that right now I do not know where to find the strength to keep on trying."

This was basically what kept me going until I was out on my own, away from school and my parents. (Spock is my big brother; did you know that?)

I have to put some effort into ignoring the process while it works itself out until the insight comes into view. I squash it if I analyze too soon.

That last is certainly true for me. In truth, I don't try to analyze my fantasies, any more than I do my dreams.** In my case (a) the payload is usually close enough to the surface that a few minutes contemplation will reveal it, (b) analysis kills it, like you said, and (c) the ones that get my attention are usually so damn good that I just want to sit back and enjoy the ride. I'm probably losing something by not (at least eventually) mining for the insight. But hell, the ride is so much fun, who cares, really?

I've got one running right now, though, that I may have to break down and write. It's deep and involved enough that I can't keep it all in my head at once, and I tend to fall asleep if I try to follow the storyline through. (Though this may be the chronic sleep-dep talking.)

I'm interested: do you have any specific examples you'd like to share?

—

* About twenty years ago, about the time I ran across Harville Hendrix's Imago model, I doped out that the reason certain characters catch fire with me is that they represent aspects of myself that I like/am attracted to/am trying to recover. (This function is actually the flip-side of the elf-glamour David Harmon is (I think) referring to upthread. The reason Celebrity exerts such power is that it taps into aspects of ourselves we long for and don't think we have.

Some Day Real Soon Now, I have a zine I'm going to write about this. It's titled "Idolatry and the Voice of the Harp."

** I had a great worldcon dream this morning. Yessee, I had picked up these two little critters. One was some kind of alien teddy-bear-monkey, and the other was a blue Persian fruit-bat. They were both lost and I was carrying them around at the con and, between panels, looking for their owners.

David Harmon @107: broken heart/half-elf glamour

E.g., being entranced by someone who's Beautiful, such that it sucks out your soul, kills your vitality, and makes you lose your Self? (Just want to make sure I'm reading you right—only tangentially familiar with this terminology.)

That earlier crash led pretty much in a straight line to the one that put me out of work and on disability

Yeah, I've encountered this. I had an exhaustion-induced crash on a con trip back in '95, then a iatrogenic depression crash in '97, and I've never really completely recovered my stamina since.

ma larkey @108 GOOD FOR YOU!!!! Stay strong, love. Coupla suggestions:

1. Have you had a little conversation with the police? (Depending on your local PD) It doesn't hurt to have them in the loop and have something on record against the chance things go abruptly pear-shaped.

2. TRO, perhaps? (Not sure if this costs money to implement.) Of equivocal effectiveness, I gather, but at the very least, it gives the police something concrete to hang their response on in the event of a 911 call. And also reinforce the message, "Yes, damn it, I am serious about this."

3. Do you have neighbors and/or coworkers you like and trust? (I realize this can be fraught; there are, I gather—as has been documented in this very thread†—those well-meaning hleppy souls who believe that you should be with your family no matter the cost to you)

If so, it might be worth going around and alerting them to your situation, and even giving them pictures of the culprits to refer to, with instructions to call the police ASAP should these people show up on your premises.

We actually are having that situation at work: a coworker is fostering a traumatized 13yo whose father is not on board with that decision. We've gotten reference photos and instructions to first, call D, 2nd call 911, and third call building security if this joker shows up.

(Come to think of it, D would be an excellent addition to this community. I think I will see if I can bring her in. Unlikely, as she seems to have a very full life. But can't hurt to ask. At the very least, maybe the 13yo might want to join us.)

One might argue that the threat of physical harm wasn't and isn't there anymore

You know how they train elephants to stay tied up, right?

—

† Technical note: In backtracking to check if you were one of the ones reporting people "helpfully" trying to keep you with your family, I discovered that your posts are scattered in a bunch of VAB threads. If this is deliberate, 'nuff said. If, however, you would prefer to have your comments aggregated together into a single story (which would make it easier for me, dreadful as I am at keeping You Humans all distinct in my mind ;-> ), check with the mods to see if they can set this up for you on the back end.

Jacque @ 111 said: You know how they train elephants to stay tied up, right?

This is seriously sideline commenting, not meant to divert in any way, but this really pinged for me. I started tearing up over the elephants. And I've found this to be almost universal, that most people can handle other people's trauma and deaths every single day. But print a story about an animal dying and everyone cries out in protest.

One of my favorite movies is The Usual Suspects. In the commentary by Bryan Singer and Christopher McQuarrie (writer/directory and producer, respectively), they're discussing the final scene in which many many people die on the boat. A character encounters a dog on the boat, pets him, and moves on. Commentary: "Dozens of people have asked me what happens to the dog. We've got people dying on the boat in droves, and everyone's worried about the dog. Folks, he's just fine. He gets away, I promise."

It seems to be so much easier to feel badly for smaller, more helpless beings than it is to feel badly for ourselves. Yet when all this started, we were small, helpless beings. What makes us turn away from our own suffering?

I feel like I should be giving an update on how my life is going. So much has been happening or changing that I don’t know what to think or how it will come out.

The big messy problem of my partner’s stepfather hasn’t gotten resolved. We got as far as having my partner apologize to his mother for his part in the mess, which helped some, but then the stepfather had a heart attack just before Christmas and derailed everything. He’s recovering, but my partner’s mother mostly avoids us/the problem.

My family is its usual very dysfunctional self mostly but my mother is changing under the pressure of looking after my father more. My mother seems to be trying to turn me into her therapist, but being treated that way is a lot more trust and respect than she would usually give me. Also, since my aunt broke an ankle and had to live with my mother for a while, she noticed a bunch of my mom's annoying behaviours that she had successfully ignored for decades.

Therapy is going. I finally asked about how badly things *could* have gone for me, after the kind of childhood I had. I mostly notice how I fell short of perfection, so I wanted the other pole to compare against. I “should” have gotten serious depression, schizophrenia, etc. and never been a functional independent adult, so then maybe it’s true when he says I’m doing awfully well.

Work is where everything is up in the air. There’s cutbacks coming but nobody in the ranks knows where or how. There’s a reorganization coming too. My contract ends Really Soon and I don’t know if it’s getting renewed/extended. Neither does my manager though she's been working hard to keep me. And during all this I’ve been going above and beyond on both my regular job and more. I've been helping my department and liaising with other departments in a way that if you had asked me to *make* it happen, I wouldn’t have known how to do or confidence that it would happen. It’s luck and not luck — I kept seeing chances and taking them because the worst likely result was the same as not trying. And I kept offering something as well as, or instead of asking for something. And at every step, it’s started valuable conversations and invitations to collaborate in really good and needed ways, because I keep deciding "what the hell, let's see if _____ will talk to me." And then they DO. The latest thing in this chain is a meeting soon with someone 3-4 levels above me and just 2 levels below the top, with a star-studded resume, because I wrote him a letter with some thoughts about his pet project. He wrote back himself (not his assistant) in less than 24 hours, and set up a meeting for less than a week after he gets back into town, the morning of the last day of my contract. My manager told me she bets he’s going to hire me out from under her and implied he’d be a fool not to.

I’d love to work with this guy on his pet project but don’t want to abandon the department I'm in or the field that I just spent 4 years getting a degree in. So I want to suggest a deal to him. I was already going to suggest a new approach to/application of IT in the company based on what I saw at the meeting for his pet project. Said project involves changing how we are doing business via better communication and IT — well, my current group badly wants some new tech and is about to go through a big reorg/renewal to improve communication, so maybe we can all work together on this to make the best damn showcase for change that we can make? I do some of my current job and some work for Cool Bigwig, my group gets what we need to do amazing work, and all the leaders involved get to show off. Everyone would win, I’d get something great on my resume, and damn well ought to get a real job with benefits and security and a raise out of it. So, Universe? I am working hard to make this wonder-scenario happen. Can I rely on you doing your part about them agreeing to it and giving me the real job with all the trimmings, please?

On the topic of making art with pre-ruined materials: YUP! When I am scribbling ideas for stand-up comedy, I prefer to use textfiles that already have miscellaneous jottings in them, or little half-full notebooks, or odd-shaped scratch paper. And then when I'm creating a set, I arrange all those bits of paper and my computer near me, on a table or a couch or the floor, and I have some other bit of paper, preferably at least US standard letter-sized, upon which I can write or diagram the whole set. The best is big swaths of butcher paper torn from one-time restaurant table covers -- they'd just be thrown away anyhow, and they're big and messily torn-edged.

And I basically never cook, but once when I was at my sister's place I made some stuff. She'd just had a housewarming and a guest had brought about a gallon of coffee that went undrunk and was just going to go down the drain. So I did a bit of research and made a coffee granita and some other related stuff. I can be creative more easily if the materials were just going to go to waste anyway.

Relatedly, I once knew a very intelligent and experienced colleague who ... If you gave hir a big mass of little similar TODOs, like "fulfill all the requests in this category," ze would eventually whittle them down. And in general, ze floated around doing useful things, just not necessarily the ones others would prefer ze prioritize. I finally characterized it as "ze'll do whatever you want as long as you can get it under the 'just faffing about' threshold." My spouse was once able to turn a large daunting task into a bunch of little ones with a bit of scripting, and I think the trick to working well with that sort of mindset lays in that sort of decomposition -- and in deemphasizing and subtlety, which go against all my communication reflexes...

Jacque @111 I'm interested: do you have any specific examples you'd like to share?

I think I'll pass for the moment. I find when I think about sharing that they run too close to the bone. Which is another good reason not to try to turn them into publishable fiction. :-)

Moonlit Night @113, hope things work out on the job. It sounds like it's going well - that "well, what's going to happen if I try this" and then having it work well is a great experience.

Ma Larkey, hang in there.

dcb @109 very much to my surprise, I'm learning that I can be a good leader, that I enjoy encouraging other people to do stuff and improve, and that other people seem to think I'm doing a good job at this.

and then

what leadership roles I might have taken, what options I might have had the self-confidence to pursue, if I hadn't had early experiences which taught me that nobody would listen to me/ nobody was interested in my opinion/ nobody wanted my ideas/

Trying to say this carefully, because I don't want to sound all perky and well, it's all for the best ... but I suspect that knowing what it's like not being listened to may have made you a better listener, better at encouraging others, and thus be a way you can make the old experiences not a total waste.

OtterB #106: I was building a setting and a backstory in which he seemed justified saying or doing the kind of things that I felt, but that seemed vastly melodramatic applied to my life.

Yeah, I suspect that's where the exaggerated abuse (and various fantastic elements) come from in my fantasies.

dcb #109: I'll add to OtterB: I suspect you've learned a lot from other people's mistakes, which is surely better than having to learn from your own.

Jacque #111: You know how they train elephants to stay tied up, right?

For general reference

I'll note that this has a converse which is actually appropriate: The old maxim that you should never pick up a foal (or a large-dog puppy), because if you do, when they grow up they'll still think you can do that.

E.g., being entranced by someone who's Beautiful, such that it sucks out your soul, kills your vitality, and makes you lose your Self?

Sort of... the half-elf bit isn't "terminology", so much as my interpretation of her character and abilities. I don't want to spend energy slamming her or describing her "issues", but in retrospect it seems to me that she was, well, not a complete personality. I have no idea how I seemed to her, because for all intents and purposes, she was an alien being to me, to the point where we didn't share a language to compare our experiences. But it took me far too long to recognize that....

I met her in the Neo-Pagan community, but it wasn't until after I'd left that I realized that her character and behavior matched up disturbingly well with the traditions of the fey folk and their glamour. (In her case, that would have been a selkie.) The little I knew of her backstory (deeply alienated from her parents, among other things) also suggested a changeling, thus the "half" part.

Now, the tales I know of don't really involve purposeful "draining", so much as the natural effects of being magicked into loving someone who is never going to love you back the same way, because that's just not part of their nature. The fey glamour, that makes people fall in love with them, is part of their nature (indeed, it may not be something they can control), but it's fundamentally a false lure, because it doesn't represent a personal connection in the usual human sense. If anything, I suspect it's the attempt to connect to such a person "on their own ground" that leads to "loss of self".

Naturally, this is all from my own limited (and half-drowned) point of view -- and I'm well aware that myths themselves arise from human universals. People like me, and even not-so-like me, have surely been swooning over people like her since humanity began, and getting their hearts broken, often enough that the stories they told became universalized, and shifted from historical to mythic time. Which is cold comfort when it's happened to you.....

Regarding that "Imago model", the link you gave lost me at The basic principles ... are as follows: We were born whole and complete.

Because I know damn well I wasn't. I was born with the psychic equivalent of a clubfoot and a turkey-leg for an arm, and spent much of my early life trying to build tools that would let me get on regardless.

Moonlit Night #113: Sounds like you're cooking with gas!

Moonlit Night Knight* @113: WOW. Go, YOU! I am seriously impressed. Dear Universe: I second MN's request.

* Sorry; couldn't resist. ;-)

Sumana Harihareswara @114: I can be creative more easily if the materials were just going to go to waste anyway.

I love working in "trash," too. There should be more of us. :-)

"ze'll do whatever you want as long as you can get it under the 'just faffing about' threshold."

Hah! I love it! "Oh, hello, Expectations! What am I doing? Oh, nothing, nothing at all. Nothing to see here. Just move along. These aren't the droids you're looking for." Hee hee!

My spouse was once able to turn a large daunting task

This is a great example of Heather Rose Jones's "unleash your inner process-geek" strategy.

OtterB @115: I think I'll pass for the moment. I find when I think about sharing that they run too close to the bone.

Entirely understood. :-)

& 116, to dcb: you can make the old experiences not a total waste

... and, in fact, prior bad experience might actually be a prerequisite for your current success. (Helluva way to run a universe if you ask me, but what do I know?)

David Harmon @117: Because I know damn well I wasn't. I was born with the psychic equivalent of a clubfoot and a turkey-leg for an arm, and spent much of my early life trying to build tools that would let me get on regardless.

Interesting. Care to elaborate? (Now that you mention it, I suppose it is obvious that there could be psychological equivalents to spina bifida and such.)

Jacque #119: That's my loose interpretation of the effects of my position on the autistic spectrum. Lack of support/stability for the sensory vulnerabilities and ADD, lack of strength/tactile/manipulation for the executive function and social-learning deficits.

I cannot stop laughing because I have realized two things related to the job section of my previous post #113.

1. I evidently can network, but I do it by writing or geeking out at people instead sipping wine at work parties. I had really better find out how I can get a blog for inside work (if I still have work soon), and what/if I can post in public, and then force myself to start DOING that. I should also really put time into getting my thesis stuff digested for posting somehow also since that's where the opportunities are coming from, from the geek/designer overlap that drove my thesis. Now how do I do the equivalent in person when the crowd is NOT preselected for compatible geeking and I hate talking to strangers?

2. I hate job hunting SO MUCH that I will cheerfully take on the impossible rather than having to look for a new job. I am, after all, revving up to propose to a powerful complete stranger on our first meeting that we reorganize and refocus at least two departments while collaborating with a third, to produce at least two different showcases of what can be accomplished, thereby having to get a few hundred or even a few thousand people to learn new things and go in different directions than they are right now. And it's giving me the good kind of mad glint in my eye, sounding like a blast as well as immense amounts of hard work, and I'm doing this all because one it needs doing and two then surely I can keep my first job and get the second and do them both at once. I can only conclude that I will do anything, no matter how bloody insane, to avoid job hunting.

dcb @109: I know a bit of what you mean, although my examples involve my old work in tech support coming up useful, or turning out to be a better presenter than I would ever have expected to be. When people try and tell me that the way my life did go is turning out useful, my self-criticism comes back with a second layer of defense that if I had *known* what I was needing to learn, then I could have done it on purpose, and still come out with a good five or so extra years to do something cool with. This is truth twisted to wound. So it's still probably going to take more time and especially more good stuff that couldn't have happened otherwise to take the edges off the loss.

So... yeah. I haven't been here in a bit. Things went and got crazy on me again. My husband was getting much better about not being on me about the boxes all the time, I was working on them bit by bit, and then we had a roommate move into our 1 bedroom apartment with 2 cats and a ferret (which we aren't allowed to have due to our lease saying no pets).We actually move next weekend, and I'm really very worried. I made it very very clear before she moved in that when we moved to a bigger apartment, the animals were to stay in her room, as I am allergic to cats, and don't feel like it is fair for me to have to clean the ENTIRE apartment when she moves in 4 months so that I am not itchy and puffy. The rooms are a good size, and I don't feel like it is an unreasonable request (well, to be fair, demand) since if we get caught with them we will be evicted. My husband believes that the cats should be allowed into the common areas since they need room to stretch out, which would be an acceptable thing, apart from that the rooms are a decent size. This, of course, means that he is taking our roommates side over my health, and my anger I feel is justified.

All in all, I'm just not being listened to and my husband is on me about just wanting to throw out all of the boxes I haven't gone through from my childhood, which is a HUGE undertaking that I haven't really had a chance to process even though we have been here almost a year. To be fair, I should have started on them sooner, but it isn't like something that I can bang out in a weekend, and he doesn't really get that, because he really doesn't have emotional attachments to most things at all.

Mostly, I just needed to talk again, and the people here are all wonderful people who help out when wanted, and it feels good to be a part of something.

Moonlit Night@121: I can only conclude that I will do anything, no matter how bloody insane, to avoid job hunting.

Hm. Have we met? Because in that respect, you're me.

I ought to be job-hunting right now, rather than working the weekend to complete the demo for which both the spec and deadline have been in continuous flux for the last two months. I ought to be job-hunting, rather than rely on the vague hope that my current employer will find my dedication sufficiently difficult to replace to merit trying harder to keep me happy to work for them.

I detest job-hunting with a raging passion. Job-hunting consists of making real-life contact with strangers who reject me, and doing it over and over again in the hope that eventually, one of them won't. I hates it, I does.

I have never met anyone, no matter how big an extrovert, no matter how much of a sales type, who enjoyed job hunting. Some aspects of it, maybe. Not the process of it as a whole. It's always reminded me of what C.S. Lewis said about war, that it was a great relief that at least no one was expecting him to like it.

Moonlit Night @121 Now how do I do the equivalent in person when the crowd is NOT preselected for compatible geeking and I hate talking to strangers?

Has anybody taught you the "elevator speech" strategy? As in, having prepared a brief (and perhaps an even briefer) take on your work and your interests that you could use if you found yourself on an elevator with someone you'd really like to connect with?

Also, I hate crowds, and I can manage by looking around for someone else standing by his/herself and approaching them with a question on the order of, so what connects you to this group, and then listening.

Shirashima, welcome back, but sorry it's more trouble that brings you back. This sounds really unpleasant.

How can one enter a party or meetup and start a good conversation with a stranger?

Picking the right events helps, and developing tactics that suit one's own temprament helps. Sometimes that takes some trial and error and understanding one's own boundaries and so on. Like, sometimes it's useful to always go with a buddy, so that if everyone else is being boring then you have a homebase to come back to (and maybe the buddy can carry some of the load). Or, go to volunteer-y events, like a parks department's spring plantings, because then there's always work to be done so one doesn't feel at loose ends. I know a friend who always volunteers at scifi conventions because it helps her feel like she has a reason to talk to people, and that helps her make connections and friends. Or, use Lanyrd to only go to events where people who are interesting on Twitter are going to be there.

At parties and "networking events" I take the initiative to say hello to random people (I understand that sometimes that is the hardest part; also I am an American living in the US and I know that in other cultural contexts this would not be as acceptable). OtterB mentions looking for people who are already standing alone. That is a totally great tactic and I endorse it. Often networking events have specific party-game structures where they straight-up tell you "spend the next 5 minutes talking to the person next to you!" so that can be helpful for icebreaking.

I have a few starter and restarter questions at the ready -- what cool things are you up to? what's exciting you these days? how do you know the host? do you live around here? what are you reading? -- avoiding the boring status-laden questions like "What do you do?" and "Where did you go to school?" I try to enthusiastically listen and ask follow-up questions and bring up related topics and trivia. I know that the "enthusiastically" bit sounds fake, but I start from the premise that everyone is interesting about something and it just takes a good interviewer to get at it.

Some people respond in kind and get the momentum of the conversation going, start new threads and return to old ones. Some don't. If after five minutes of that treatment the person isn't saying anything particularly interesting, I say, "will you excuse me" and say something about food or drink or something, go away, and find some other person to talk to. I almost always find someone who can do twenty interesting minutes with me. And now I've made a new acquaintance, probably a friend. If I now need to mingle more to get good return on investment out of an event that's explicitly billed as a "networking" event, I frankly say, "Excuse me, I need to go mingle and meet more people," take her card or give him mine, and move on. Having a card helps SO MUCH -- it lubricates these kinds of transactions enormously.

Sam Starbuck, who has social anxiety, blogged about a related plan he carried out -- he wanted to get out more -- "not even necessarily to have more experiences, but not to spend every single night at home. There's nothing wrong with that, in and of itself, but it wasn't what I wanted for me. So I developed the Adventur Programme." And he said something that might be applicable here:

For the first few months, I had to always bear in mind that it didn't really matter what I was doing or whether I thought I'd like it; if I tried to talk myself out of doing something by saying "Oh, it won't be that great" I had to remind myself that the reason for going was to go, not to necessarily have a good experience every time....

It helped that my experiences varied quite a bit, because then I learned that even a negative experience was fodder for conversation. I could blog about my dismal failures as well as I could about experiences that went great....

I don't want to spout optimism and say that it's easy; it's not, and sometimes I've felt stupid or weird or out of place. It's been hard a lot of the time. Just "thinking positive" doesn't help. Instead, I try to remember that it could be horrible but even if it's horrible, it's something to joke about, and it might not continue to be horrible. And if it does continue to be horrible I can stop doing it and go home.

I am reflexively okay with talking to strangers, and all this may be hlepy. But I used to be terrible at parties. I think knowing that there's usually an easy exit strategy helps. If you say "will you excuse me" they have to say yes! and if they don't, they're the unreasonable ones! So if you're having a bad conversation you can bail.

Stefan S: I was reading the poem at the beginning of this thread, and 'hearing' it as I read, which is normal for me... until I realized that I wasn't hearing it *read*. I was hearing it *sung*.

I am not musical. This NEVER happens. You are so AWESOME to have given this to me, and I thank you for it.

(In case you're wondering, it was being sung to a sort of folk-rock tune, with acoustic guitar and a muted percussion. There was a doo-wah chorus in behind the tenor lead. --Very cool. :)

Okay, just venting, I think.

For the past couple of weeks, I've had "Perfect" by Alanis Morrisette running through my head. I know what started it off (Hoyden About Town featured her as their vocalist-of-the-week in their occasional "Sunday Singalong" about three weeks back). And I know why it's this particular song - "Perfect" is pretty much the anthem for the kid raised in a dysfunctional family.

I just wish it wasn't going around so frequently. It's making me flash back to a lot of old pain; pain I thought I'd processed (but it turns out I haven't, not completely). Mostly it's pain to do with being imperfect in a world which appears to expect constant perfection, which always wants more. A world of vampires in which I'm expected to be a perpetual blood donor. It makes me tired (and it heterodynes with the physical tiredness coming from low iron levels - so yeah, I'm taking the iron pills again).

I just wish I didn't have to deal with this on top of two psych assignments for uni. *sigh*

I bin gnomed. I suspect it might be the URL.

Jacque @19: I know this is way downthread, but if you haven't solved your tea issue, I may have a solution for you.

I used to need tea as soon as I got going in the morning, so I would crawl out of bed, feed the cats, turn on the 'coffeemaker', shower, and when I came out the tea would be ready to go. In my case 'coffeemaker' was, in fact, a tiny little four cup coffeemaker. I'd set it up the night before with a coffee filter containing loose tea and enough water in the carafe for a travel mug and when I got out of the shower, the tea was ready to go! I've also done it with tea bags when I was out of loose, but that was desperation.

You could probably get a coffeemaker with a timer or put it on one of those timers you plug the appliance into and then plug into the wall.

argument comes up in unrelated arguments with demoralizing results

Yanked out of context with regard to spouses and partners who do this, or otherwise use the "you're not pulling your weight" argument...

*sits and thinks a bit*

I hope this doesn't sound like a boast - what I hope to achieve is a report of how the far-too-common abuse of differential power emphatically does not have to be the only way.

The dear hubby has essentially supported me through out 20+ years of living together/marriage. When we were first together, we found ourselves doing many of the same silly things young/new couples do, with boundaries, expectations, and similar. Oh, and throw in on top of that me just being graduated and moving to a new country (to be with the proto-dear hubby). (And undiagnosed depression and ADHD, but we won't delve into that just now.)

We had one fight about dishes early on, which had me leaving the dinner table in tears. Dear hubby gave me five minutes to myself in the bedroom, then came in, to say that not only had he not meant to hurt me, he didn't like himself very much for what he'd said.

We may have had grumbles about dishes after that, but we both avoided making the topic one of trying to control the other's actions.

Similarly, and recently, when dishes were getting to be a problem (I will confess, dear hubby is at the moment the Dishes Fairy), he made a remark about one of my minor habits (a particular pattern) - it was so unrelated to the discussion at hand that I was shocked, but I realized one of the reasons for my shock was that this kind of remark was completely uncharacteristic of dear hubby. In my own mind, I filed it in the "forget and move on, unless the topic returns within this very conversation", and we concluded the talk, if not happily then at least without tears or resentments.

A day later, dear hubby came to me, and remarked, "By the way, I wanted to apologize to you about that comment yesterday." "Oh? Which one?" His answer was the comment I'd put into "forget and move on". "Oh, *that* one," I said, and told him more or less what you've just read here.

So,... yeah. I guess my point here is that, people exist who DO retain the power to remain considerate, even with their intimate partners. Because I still can consider myself in the "I'm doin' it rong" catagory, and yet, the dear hubby doesn't exploit that vulnerability, I know that the situation does not always have to end with one partner screaming or hurling abuse at the other.

It's not rocket science, for all an abusive person might insist it's difficult or impossible. Being at the receiving end of such abuse does not mean that you, the abused one, have done anything to deserve it.

Crazy(and back to reading the thread from, oh, around the 60's, I think??)Soph

PS hugs to all of you, for sharing your stories - I "haz a sad" for a lot of you, and deeply appreciate your putting yourselves bravely out here for others to learn from and hopefully to help the rest of the group by letting us give back in the form of support.

Posting this passing thought that I think belongs here. The thing with growing up with dysfxn and the abusers denying it so well, you absorb it so much that you almost believe the lie---but others can see it sometimes and it's uncannily transparent to them---the little "tells", freezing up when you are touched, the way you hold yourself in space when in a crowd. An example: as a kid I didn't really learn to swim properly, or even BE in my body properly because I was always disconnecting/hiding in my own head just to make it through the day. I had a really cool swim coach though, an expert swimmer, a man who was very kind and very perceptive. He saw through my panic and taught me to swim. One day, after a particularly fraught lesson, he drew me to the center of the pool to talk to me apart from the others. He said, "Don't be scared, or mad at me, ok? I just want to tell you something. I can tell someone is hurting you. It's not your fault, whoever it is or whatever the reason is. You don't need to tell me anything if you don't want to, I can tell because of the way you've been acting when I try to guide you, or correct you. I can't stand to see you suffer and be hard on yourself. You can swim, you just need to learn to trust again." I started crying silent tears. It didn't take very long, and I recovered soon, and he didn't say anything more.

I felt shock and shame at the same time, awe that he'd discovered my secret even if I hadn't said anything. The downside though, was that later, he couldn't help himself and spoke to my dad after a lesson. I don't know what they said to each other, but I was pulled out of swim after that.

It's good to remember that teacher, because it tells me that there are good people out there, and that yes, sometimes no matter how much you stick your head in your hands like a little kid hoping no one will see because you are covering your eyes? People can see.

CrazySoph @131: Thanks for posting this. I needed to "hear" it right now. :-)

(I'm working on rewriting a particularly difficult scene in the NaNo mentioned in @8, which scene essentially hinges on the difference between "warning signs for abuse" and "normal occasional thoughtlessness"... and I was getting a bit bogged down trying to believe in the existence of the latter without the former. :P Examples of functional family behavior: priceless. *g*)

Moonlit Night @113 and 121: Congratulations! It's a lot of change, but it sounds like a lot of progress, too! Go you!

W/R/T 121: Why should networking be solely relegated to sipping wine at work parties or having a beer at the bar? :) Part of networking, IMHO, is knowing what you're enthusiastic about and connecting with people who can appreciate that enthusiasm. As to how to connect with people who aren't so much with the geekery... the best advice I ever heard was to listen, and ask questions that show you're listening. It's a good way to figure out if there might be some sort of overlap with your skills and background. That might work especially well for you, since you have a background in design? Design is everywhere, good and bad. :) And don't expect every contact to be "OMG WE ARE SO COMPATIBLE THIS WILL BE AWESOME." Sometimes it's enough just to get your face and name known.

Shirashima @122: Your health and your financial situation comes first. Period. And I say that as a devoted cat staffer -- I adore my furry little beasties, but when we have friends with cat allergies over, we de-catify the public areas and shut them up in a back room, and we use a Hepa filter on the A/C. Human health comes first, and two cats in a largish bedroom aren't going to die of boredom in a few months. (Trust me on this.)

Would it help to point out to your husband that you can't deal with the accumulated boxes when you can't breathe due to allergies? Or ask the, IMO, entirely reasonable question that, if you are caught with the pets, is the roommate prepared to cover any fines and costs incurred to, up to and including finding you a new apartment (should it come to that)? Maybe putting it in those terms might make your husband understand the seriousness of the situation.

As an aside, because several of us have mentioned they have friends or SOs that don't seem to get it -- I've encountered similar circumstances, both directed at me, and at others I know with mental illnesses. I developed a stock reply (which I offer to everyone in the hopes that it might fit in a personal toolbox):

"Do you blame a diabetic because their body doesn't make insulin? Do you blame someone with asthma because they sometimes can't breathe? No? Then please don't blame me because my brain doesn't make the right neurotransmitters. I know that working with me can be difficult because of that, but I need you to understand that my limitations, though they appear mental, have a physical basis that I can't will my way out of.

I've had luck with that, because it kind of shocks people out of the "you're a bad person" line of thought, especially when it's followed up with examples of how I'm working to bypass the limitation, or to compensate for it. It's not perfect, and, obviously, don't rely on it if you don't feel comfortable using it, or if it doesn't work for you. </ObNotHlepyDisclaimer>

Moonlit Night, AnonCowardSevenBillion, HelenS: Concur. Job-hunting is a soul-sucking, exhausting undertaking, and the worst thing about it is that every resume sent out, every contact is a tiny spark of hope that is usually doomed to disappointment. Husband's in that situation now, and I can only hope that all who are currently struggling through the job-hunt process find that it ends soon and successfully.

Megpie71 @178: Oh, damn. Yeah, that's me, and I may have to add that to my collection. You have my sympathies for the bad timing.

crazysoph @131: Thank you, thank you, for showing what works. Husband and I are trying to get there, but neither one of us learned to argue well as children (he gets aggressive, I withdraw and get sarcastic and passive-aggressive), and it's a constant work in progress. I can say from personal experience that both partners have to be on board with improving the communication, and they have to be able to divorce criticism of the action from criticism of the person. (As another aside, this has been a chronic problem for Husband and I, both of whom are ADD, and both of whom find it difficult to disengage from the dominant emotion of the moment. The meds are helping with that.)

nonetooclose @132: People can see. I was gobsmacked by an aunt (whom I hadn't talked to in over 20 years) actually validating my memory of an incident with my father. You have my sympathies, and I hope you're healing.

Froth @32: Thank you for that. If you replace "brother" with "father" you pretty much describe my family.

Jacque, #94: I'm exactly the opposite. Handwriting has always been a slow and laborious process for me, with a lot of scribbling-out of misspelled words and starting over, and losing my train of thought along the way. Word processors have been a revelation and a delight -- not only do I type faster than I write, but there's a delete key if I mistype something! Writing a short note by hand is one thing, but for anything lengthy or meaningful, if I can't key it in, it generally doesn't happen.

David H., #96: That's fascinating! I wish you continued success with that project.

ma larkey, #108: Good for you for holding your ground! Remember, there is nothing you could ever do to make your parents stop thinking of you as an ingrate and a terrible child; that's an important part of their worldview, and they're not going to give up the rewards it brings them. All you can do is what you're doing, getting yourself OUT OF THERE.

OtterB, #116: Sort of tangential, but you've reminded me of something which I think is part of the difference between support and hlepiness.

Support is saying what you said -- that this bad thing happened and it sucked, but perhaps you got some knowledge from it that can be helpful to you in the present, which would be a form of salvaging something from the suckage.

Hlepiness is someone saying, "Well, see, you thought that was so bad, but you needed to have it happen in order to get this knowledge that is useful to you now." NO. There could have been other ways to acquire that knowledge which wouldn't have sucked.

The second formulation tends to go hand in hand with the "everything happens for a REASON" fallacy. I call it "ante hoc, ergo propter hoc" when I want to be fancy.

David H., #117: The old maxim that you should never pick up a foal (or a large-dog puppy), because if you do, when they grow up they'll still think you can do that.

ObSF: In "The Mountains of Mourning", Miles is talking about his horse Fat Ninny: "Grandfather had me pick him up and hold him every day for a week after he was foaled, until he got too big. Horses are creatures of habit, Grandfather said, and take first impressions to heart. Forever after, Ninny thought I was bigger than he was."

Jennifer, #134: Oh, yes. Arguing is a learned skill, and if you only have dysfunctional models in front of you to learn from, that's what you learn. I've had to seriously modify my own arguing style since moving in with my partner, because my old patterns (which weren't a problem with my ex) heterodyne nastily with his and make matters worse. It's like a lot of other things; once you become aware that it needs to change, you can work on changing it and eventually succeed.

Lee #136: Hmm. I think we need some actual horse experts to weigh in (so to speak) on that one.

I am going to say what I probably said in the last DFT: my life would have been so much better if I had taken advantage of free psychological counseling when I was in the Navy, or when I was in college.

Problem is, I wouldn't have. I thought of counseling as a form of suicide, of throwing away my self in favor of someone's new self for me.

Little did I guess that when I was finally forced into counseling by a miserable life that had me thinking seriously about for-real suicide, it would actually serve to make me into more of myself, the self I had for so long wanted to be, pretended to be, hated myself for not being.

But hey, one of the things I could finally give up thanks to therapy was my obsessive thinking about how I "should" have lived my life at every stage of it except the present.

I'm sorry if this isn't something I should bring up here, but...I just found out that it's extremely likely I'll be spending the summer with my parents.

It will be the first time I've stayed with them longer than a few days in two years. I can't even keep them from messing with my head from 3 hours away...I'm afraid of losing myself just when I'm beginning to find myself again.

It's not really optional, for reasons I don't want to go into right now. I have emergency plans in place, I have friends who are going to be checking in with me regularly, I have people I can visit briefly if it gets to be too much. But any other suggestions on how not to lose touch with outside reality would be greatly appreciated, if it's not too much trouble.

@139

My first thought when it comes to holding on to my own sense of reality or self when challenged by my abusers, aside from consulting trusted friends, is to use a talisman of sorts. It doesn't even have to be a physical thing, just a mental note. A single story that I can refer to, a thread, a slip of an event, something irrefutable. Something that cemented that yes, the reality distortion fields of my family of origin can't touch that. Then it becomes a little touchstone for when I am feeling uncertain.

I don't know if it helps you. It depends on your own needs and proclivities. Some people wear lockets for remembrance. Or carry books. Some just have a poem. I hope you find something to hold on to for your trip.

cayce @139 Maybe have some planned schedule for getting out of the house? Job, class, volunteer work, club meeting ... something you can count on?

cayce @ 139: Pre-warned gives a chance to be pre-armed, at least. My suggestions (in addition to those given by others) [and ignore if not useful, of course]: write stuff down, regarding previous experiences and things you know to be true. Have copies with you (if it's safe to) and left with those friends you mention/places you can get to. In the event (inevitable, I guess) of new incidents of them messing with you, as soon as possible after the incident, write down what happened, as soon as possible, and share it with others. Post here. Print out a copy of the following (I included a slightly different version on a previous thread) and put it where you can read it, every day:

"I have the right to:

- Be treated with respect and consideration.
- Say NO without feeling guilty or selfish.
- Have and express directly my own opinions and feelings, including anger.
- Express my talents and interests through any ethical channel.
- Make mistakes.
- Set my own priorities as to needs.
- Be treated as a capable adult and not be patronized.
- Be listened to and taken seriously.
- Be independent.
- Ask others to change behaviour that continues to violate my rights."

My mother suddenly sprung on me. Living in the same tiny apartment for the next few days. Because she wants me to move back to her house to keep house for her there. Now she's here wanting me to wash her clothes, get her food, clean up. If only there was no history of abuse, gaslighting and other terror tactics, then I could relax. I'm so tense. She's been acting childish, pretending she doesn't know where her things are in her room, saying she's hungry, could I fix her something to eat, then backtracking and saying stuff like she doesn't want to bother me.
It's so bad I had to hide some of my personal items like my toothbrush, because she has used it to clean the sink, pretending she didn't know it was mine. There's only the two of us here!
Ok, end of rant. I feel safer now that I've written this here.

I remind myself to keep sane. She has a way with her trying to distort things. Most recently, on a visit, she surreptitiously removed the card from a modem, then lent me the modem supposedly as an act of generosity. I didn't know right off why the modem didn't work, then I checked the card slot and it's empty. She demonstrated the use of it for me with the card in place, then removed it secretly and sent me off with a useless modem! Now she claims I must have tampered with the modem and lost the card myself. Gaslighting again.

ma larkey @143: "Gaslighting Is A Way Of Life!" ::sigh::

Stay strong; we're here, watching for you.

ma larkey, here's hoping she gives up and goes away soon.

ma larkey #143: Well, that sabotaged modem is rather... revealingly symbolic, isn't it? Wishing you strength.

ma larkey, #143: You can have her removed. It's a desperation measure and will certainly trigger all sorts of unpleasantness, but you *can* do it if she's moved in on you without your permission. It's not as if she doesn't have a home to go to.

ma larkey@143: keep writing. Sympathies.

Thank you for being thoughtful witnesses. It's blown over for now, she went home. Breathing a sigh of relief that there was no fight. Meanwhile realizing how tense I had been, used up spoons just trying to be "normal". Playing some music helps. Hot tea and a nap. For everyone out there with similar struggles, sending you strength too.

ma larkey: Glad to hear it!

Just found out for sure that I am staying with my parents this summer. Here we go again...

ma larkey @140
That's definitely something going on my list, thank you.
And I'm glad your mother has gone home now.

OtterB @141
Definitely. I'll be taking at least one class and hopefully working, and I'll look into volunteer work and other things as well. Maybe even something I can bring my siblings to, give them a break as well. Thanks.

dcb @142
Thank you for that list - it's something that will help even before I have to go back. Writing and I don't always get along, but if I can actually write everything down, it sounds like a thing that will be useful. Thanks.

ma larkey I am so glad that you are ok. It is never a good thing to be forced into a situation that you are uncomfortable in, and I hope that things go better for you now that she is no longer at the little apartment. Hopefully it will be a while before she decides to try to take absolute control over you again.

cayce & ma larkey:

Sending you mental well-wishings. I wish I could give you the perfect piece of advice, but I have a really hard time distinguishing the line between help and hlepy, and would rather err on the side of caution.

Nonetheless: I'm here.

RE functional communication: my husband and I developed a series of truths based in part in response to my experiences with a previous boyfriend jerking me around emotionally.

The first two were
1. I will not willing hurt you
2. I cannot read your mind

from there we worked out a bunch that diminished power struggles, including

a) if only one person wins, that isn't a win
b) shared misery is better than lonely misery but shared happy is better
c) just because it's a thankless task doesn't mean you shouldn't be thanked
d) trade strengths

With the kids I've gone with

i) be kind
ii) be smart
iii) make mistakes
iv) work hard

Books have helped a lot. How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk was a bombshell - having been "good girl" my entire life, working to say "good job" was hard, but it seems to make a difference. It also works on adults (the book was originally handed to me by my oldest friend when I started work; she said it was the best management tool she'd ever found).

I am grateful for this thread. I am grateful to all of you for talking about where you are, and how you got there.

@ fellow abuse survivors, re the upthread comment about learning patterns of normal behavior: What helped me was taking a book to a coffee shop/McDonald's/the campus cafeteria and just sitting there looking like I was reading while I was really listening. I picked up patterns of normal human interaction that way. Internally matching my own actions to these patterns helped me fit in better with "normal" people as long as I kept those interactions short.

Another useful trick: Ask other people to talk. Seriously. They lead with the usual social fluff, such as how nice it was to get flowers from their SO that morning, and you say, "Oh, how lovely. What's your favorite?" By judicious use of leading questions you can get them to go from nice flowers today to how much they love chrysanthemums to Japanese art to how they long to visit Japan someday, and then you can drop in something about how you tried furikake on rice for the first time the other day and it was delicious--and before you know it you've had an entire conversation like a "normal" person AND you are getting a reputation as a good listener! Plus you learn all kinds of interesting stuff just letting people talk. Important note: Learn to recognize the signals of impending departure and wind up the conversation before then.

Frankly, though, online life has been a blessing for me. I am not left in a near panic wondering whether the sudden silence means that I forgot to say something, or said the wrong thing, or etc. etc. Even in the most safe realspace environment, I rehearse what I am going to say before I approach anyone--even people I have known for years.

When I was a child and adolescent, language was either a tool for conveying facts or a bludgeon (or a razor). Nobody just talked about stuff with me when I was little and when I was older I had no idea how to do it. Social isolation and abuse are a nasty one-two punch.

To all: still witnessing.

To ma larkey and cayce, sending strength.

Re: the job search subthread, soul-sucking isn't the half of it.

Today is my last day with the county's GROW job program (outsourced, if I haven't mentioned it before, and called "Job Club", a name that hasn't struck me as being all that professional, but what do I know?). The first week involved identifying our work-related strengths, looking for ways to turn possible weaknesses into either neutral items or potential strengths (like, "being nitpicky" turns into "being detail oriented"), turning in resumes for feedback (I didn't get any feedback on mine; one of the folks I've gotten a bit friendly with said he got back something that was worse than what he handed in), the importance of keeping a positive mental attitude (PMA...feh on the initialism, since we have a comedian in our group who thinks it's funny to refer to keeping a PMS), and doing practice interviews (pairs swap being the interviewer and interviewee), which I found quite helpful since I tend to feel I don't interview well.

The second and third weeks in "class" have been devoted to actually looking for work: cold-call 15 places to see if they're hiring in your field (recording company name, address and phone number as proof, even though nobody from the official side of the program is confirming you called); when you find six that are hiring, apply per their desired method (online app, email, fax, etc.) and record their contact info, plus check various boxes outlining your actions (submitted application, hiring immediately, spoke to hiring manager, etc.) and specify your intended follow-up action(s); of these, print out three job listings and the proof you applied (confirmation screen, email, etc.).

In reality, I think several of us are actually applying for three jobs we'd really like and printing those proofs, then recording three others that are less interesting but not a stretch per our intended field(s). I've made very few cold calls because I'm already on a couple of online job boards and they send me emails about potential jobs, so I know without calling that they're hiring, whether the actual job matches my resume qualifications or not. And most of the time I call, I wind up leaving a message on the main HR line.

So, all this being said, between Monday of last week and yesterday, I've sent out resumes for 29 jobs, ranging from six-month temp contracts to full-time employment, and left perhaps a dozen voicemails re: the cold calls.

Ask me how many responses I've gotten? (Other than autoresponder "thank you for applying" emails.) If you guessed the Big Goose Egg, you'd be right. Ditto calls back re: my HR voicemails.

Keeping a positive mental attitude is...sometimes hard. Especially when I know that most of the jobs I've applied for are really right up my alley, and I know I can do well.

However, fingers are crossed that at least one of them pops for me next week. I'd like to try out my shiny interview skills. (The comedian, of course, said he'd hate to be interviewed by me because I'm "scary". I take that to mean I'm smarter than the average bear and I intimidate him, which may explain why he stopped "flirting" with me after the third day. Sexist idiot.)

Anywho, good thoughts in the direction of best possible employment are offered to all who desire them, and would be appreciated from any who wish to offer them. I want a job, dammit! :)

Syd @156: Sympathies re. the lack of results. Still thinking about you, and hoping something comes through for you.

Syd, what dcb said. Sounds like you're working really hard at it while still keeping a sense of perspective - not an easy thing to do. Hope something comes through soon.

Syd, I'm really sorry you haven't gotten any responses. As a former HR person, I know there are many reasons for people not responding (and they have nothing to do with you). But your spot is much tougher to be in than any HR spot, so I won't say anymore about that. I would really encourage you to do the networking thing, though by networking I would mean "make sure everyone you like knows you are looking for work". Striking up a conversation with the grocery store clerk isn't a bad idea, either. It's not easy, but it can really help. Just saying things out loud is a huge step, and sometimes it feels great just having mentioned it to a random contact.

It sounds like you're working very hard, and I'm glad that the sexist idiot finds you scary. That means you're doing something immensely right! If people in my high school had liked me, I would have been very disappointed in myself by now.

Best of job luck to you!

Syd #156: Ouch on getting that goose egg (pun intended, as I'm sure it does hurt). Alas, panning out on over three dozen attempts is pretty much par for the course these days. Also, congratulations on fending off that "comedian"... he sounds like a schmuck, and you really don't need to engage with him.

PS: I thought of you today when I saw someone loading up their car with kitty litter... at a quick glance, she had 300-400 pounds worth in 20-pound bags. Given I was just passing by, I didn't strike up a conversation, but I couldn't resist commenting, "You realize your suspension is going to hate you, right?" (Not a big car -- yeah, a couple or three people could match the weight, but they wouldn't all be stacked in the back.)

My husband left me today. We were supposed to move into a new place tomorrow, and he left me, told me I am not welcome in his place, the place that was supposed to be OUR place. I have never ever felt so hurt and raw and completely lost. I love him more than anything, but he doesn't love me anymore. He said that he was upset that he settled in marrying me, when every one of our friends (well not his friends anymore because he alienated them all) has always felt that I settled and could do much better. I can't stop sobbing. Everything hurts.

Syd, joining in hoping for results of a job interview leading to a job, and I hope you give yourself a treat of some sort, because you are doing incredibly good to be sending out so many applications while also battling on other fronts.

Shirashima: listening and sympathizing. And worrying - do you have a place to stay, given the last minute announcement?

Syd @156:
Adding to the chorus of "listening, thinking good thoughts."

Shirashima @162:
Oh, gracious! That's awful.

On a practical basis, Mea's question worries me too -- do you have someplace to stay?

On a more emotional (and possibly hlepy) basis, I hope you can find ways to go gently with yourself. Remember to eat well, give yourself enough time in bed to have a good chance of sleeping, and generally try to treat yourself as someone you care about. It'll give you more physical and emotional resources to tackle whatever you need to deal with.

And we're here and listening.

I am extremely lucky to have a really good set of friends who are currently on their way to make sure I'm ok. The main problem is, I have no job, no money, no cigarettes (my guilty stress relief), no place close to here to live, and 3 interviews between now and Tuesday. I was doing everything right, and he just.... doesn't care anymore. He doesn't love me anymore, and I love him so much it hurts. I feel like every nerve ending is on fire, everything I do hurts me and I cannot stop crying. I feel like I should have done everything better and he would have stayed. If I were just a better wife, if I did what he wanted me to do every time he wanted me to do it he'd have stayed. He said that he had merely settled in marrying me. My friends keep telling me, and have told me all along, that he can never do better than me. He's not a people person, pushes people away when they tell him that he's wrong instead of trying to accept it. I married a man who doesn't feel things like any normal person, and I feel EVERYTHING so much that we clashed horribly on it. I don't know what will happen, but maybe it was for the best. But it doesn't stop the pain, the hurt, the absolute AGONY that he doesn't love me, no matter how much I love him.

Shirashima: Courage and strength. Here and listening as well.

I don't even..... I gave him my everything and it wasn't good enough.

Shirashima, all I can say is you're not the only one this has happened to. It hurts like holy fury, but it's not the end of the world and it won't always hurt so badly.

If you need someone to talk to in the middle of the night, CALL ME. My cellphone # is frira-bar-guerr svir-avar-sbhe sbhe-frira-mreb-avar, and I'm generally awake until at least 2 AM Central time, sometimes later. The cellphone lives at the other end of the house from the bedroom, so if I've gone to bed, you won't wake anyone up.

@Shirashima:

I am so sorry that this hurts.

Obviously, I only know what you've said, but it sounds like you did everything a reasonable person would expect you to do, and that, unfortunately, this guy is NOT reasonable.

You are not a bad person. Take care of yourself.

Shirashima: I'm so sorry for you. It always sucks to be the "one that loved not wisely, but too well."¹ And his alienating formerly-shared friends really is a big flag saying Not Your Fault.

Also: "Settling"? Pfui! A rock settles, a love should take root.

¹ ...quoted from another victim of betrayal. ;-)

Shirashima: I feel terrible for you. It seems from reading your post that you did all you could. So as not to stray to the hlepy side, please know that someone is watching, listening, even identifying with your struggle.

Shirashima: I am so sorry. I am biting my tongue on a number of hlepy comments and will only say: here are a lot of people who care about you. Remember we're here, for sympathetic listening at an absolute minimum. I'm so glad you have folks close by who can offer more concrete help quickly.

Shirashima, I am sorry. I'm glad to hear you have at least the immediate need of a place to stay taken care of.

From what you have said here in the past, I do NOT think the problem was that you weren't a good enough wife. Further comments suppressed on the grounds of hlepiness.

One piece of practical advice: see if you can find a pro bono lawyer - is there a local women's center? - because if he has enough money to move into a new place, there are marital assets, some of which should be yours. I realize this doesn't translate into money you can access right now. But don't let it go in the midst of the emotional pain.

Take care of yourself. Re-find your center. Good luck with the interviews.

Shirashima, the evidence you've just given us points to this not being your fault. Reasonable people do not announce they're leaving in this manner.

Shirashima,

That was a foul thing your husband did. I'm saddened that you're going through such misery right now. Seconding everything that has been said above -- this is not your fault, and I keep censoring all manner of uncomplimentary things I want to say about your husband. So there. Lots of people are on your side.

Also, OtterB has it right @ 172. This is not how you terminate a marriage. Your husband has no legal right to throw you out on the street on one day's notice. It is not his home, even if he was the primary breadwinner - marriage is a partnership and a legal contract, and you have just as much right to that house and the belongings in it as he does.

At the risk of being hlepy, I do recommend you get a lawyer, even if you feel you can do nothing else for a few days while you recover. A lawyer can take advantage of the time you will want to recover, so that when you are ready to stop mourning and start moving on with your life, you don't have to start all the way back at zero. (Plus, I don't know about you, but I find that in a situation like this, doing something to make me feel like I'm taking control of the situation makes me feel better.)

... Just checked with my mother the lawyer. You may not need a pro bono lawyer; often lawyers will accept contingency in these situations. But she re-emphasizes that you should get a lawyer immediately.

Shirashima, I weep for your pain.

You are in the right. You did all you could. That he made the decision he did, in the manner he did, is an indicator that the problems/issues are his, not yours. I won't speak further lest I become hlepy, but know that what strength I have to spare is yours if you need it.

Shirashima:

That is hard, yes.

I second David's comment that a rock settles, love should take root. Also, it's one thing for someone to feel, under stress or at 4 a.m. or after a fight or disappointment, that they are "settling" in a relationship. Telling the partner that is damaging, and doing it repeatedly or deliberately sounds like a hostile act. It certainly isn't an action that supports the relationship.

Shirashima:

Oh gods, what a downright vicious, nasty and hateful thing to have done to you. This is not your fault. His behaviour is not the action of a reasonable adult.

I hope things improve for you very soon.

Shirashima: hearing and witnessing. I am so sorry.

ma larkey: Glad your mother isn't IN your living space right now, unhappy to hear that she's still up to her usual harmful behavior. Also: public apologies for not replying to an earlier email. I'm down a few spoons myself lately, but I did get it, I did read it, and I am still digesting what it says.

To everyone: I'm glad these threads are here.

Shirashima: Heard and witnessed. Also, what others above have said. And many hugs, from those of us who care about you.

Shirashima, echoing what others have said -- it hurts so much now, but the sooner you get a lawyer, YOUR OWN lawyer, started on helping you, the better. Don't trust his lawyer or anything he says about not needing a lawyer.

And it's good that you have people to talk to coming to help you. Talk to them. The sooner and more deeply you talk, the better your healing.

(Take these both as advice from someone who did it wrong. After a public meltdown last week, I am finally, after 2.5 years, going to talk it all through with a counselor and still all those "well, maybe he was right about me" voices in my head. Yes, it's helped to talk about it here on this forum, but actually sitting down with a live person and a big box of Kleenex is different.)

Shirashima: At the risk of sounding hlepy, one of the things that helped me get over relationships gone bad was suddenly realizing "hey waitaminit, what's the point of wanting to be with someone who actively, hostilely doesn't want me there no matter what I do? What do I get out of it other than heartache and frustration?"

It didn't stop me from wanting to be with them, but it helped rational-me catch up with the initial, agonizing response from emotional-me.

Shirashima: I've been in a similar situation, and I hear you. Others are giving you some good ideas, and it's up to you to take them as advice -- I second the lawyer though; a good lawyer helps negotiate the roughest parts. If at all possible, see if you can work with a collaborative practice attorney, as they try not to be confrontational while still working to protect you.

Best of luck in the coming days. It's hard now, very hard, but it will get better again. For the first nine months, I cried and cried. I raged, and wept, and obsessed over details, and wore myself out. I moved on when I realized the depths of her lies to herself, but I survived it one day at a time.

Pendrift, #181: My version of that was, "You can't keep someone who doesn't want to stay." (There's an unexpressed tag on that of "without being an abuser".) It didn't help the pain per se, but it did help ME keep a solid grip on reality.

Shirashima: Oof! I've never had that done to me, but I know this: it doesn't feel like it now, but you're better off shut of him. He sounds like a real piece of work. It took a long time, and moving to another city, and finding other people to be in love with, before I was able to get over my unrequited love. Talk to us here; we're listening.

Syd: Go, you, for all the hard work your doing! One of the things I recall from my last job hunt is that it takes a while to "get into the groove." Also, if you're one of the folks who likes to beat problems to death with solutions, go have a look at "Job Hunting for Dummies." Most of it's common knowledge, but it's nice to have it all down in one place, and a flip-through-able form.

Shirashima: Hoping this isn't hlepy . . . .

That is almost exactly what happened to a friend of mine . . . except they and their two kids actually made the move, and then, when almost everything except the husband's stuff was in the new house, he drove off and left them there.

It took her 3 years to get shut of him. She's pretty sure he moved her into the house as part of a plan to ruin her financially.

I think you're better off.

Oh, Shirashima, I'm so sorry to hear that. *hugs, supports, listens* I'm so glad you have a group of supportive friends, and I echo the advice to find a lawyer. Someone who abandons you in the way that he did...that's just cruel.

It wasn't a failing in you, and it's not a sign that your everything wasn't good enough. Your everything was a matchless gift that he lacked the capacity to recognize and the grace to accept. Like others here, I know what it's like to be hurt that badly, and that deeply, and all I can say is that you will find healing someday.

In the short-term, I wish you strength, and offer what little I can.

Syd: Congratulations on doing the work; it's hard not to feel dispirited on the job front, but what you're experiencing is, from my vantage point, about par for the course in the current economy. Is it possible for you to look into California's training benefits program, given your long-term unemployment situation? (As always, ignore if hlepy.)

Today was a better day. I broke down in the morning some, found out that I can't get out of the lease on the apartment we were supposed to move into that he moved into with our roommate, but then I had my interview with a decent company for good pay, benefits, employee discounts, and serious chances for advancement. I had the interview, partway through she stopped me and called her boss to see if he could interview me later that night. 2 interviews for the same place in the same day, and I'm trying not to get my hopes up as there are 2 spots and 10 people who made it to the second interview.... but I'm not going to lie, I am really hopeful. The irony of this is of course that my husband kept telling me I was such a child, when he's still working as a temp and a couple days after he left I might have a grown up job, aka a career.
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and help. I know I should contact a lawyer, but I haven't yet. I looked into it a little bit so far, but every time I just start bawling. It isn't fair. He's cruel and emotionless, but I love him, even though it is really stupid.
I understand that for some people, 22 is not an age that you'd even know that kind of thing, and I would for the most part agree, but I haven't really been my age since I was 11, and have never used the L word unless I meant it because I couldn't say it. He didn't love me. I was convenient, and more than he deserved.

Its ok. Tomorrow will be better. My mantra.

Today was a better day. I broke down in the morning some, found out that I can't get out of the lease on the apartment we were supposed to move into that he moved into with our roommate, but then I had my interview with a decent company for good pay, benefits, employee discounts, and serious chances for advancement. I had the interview, partway through she stopped me and called her boss to see if he could interview me later that night. 2 interviews for the same place in the same day, and I'm trying not to get my hopes up as there are 2 spots and 10 people who made it to the second interview.... but I'm not going to lie, I am really hopeful. The irony of this is of course that my husband kept telling me I was such a child, when he's still working as a temp and a couple days after he left I might have a grown up job, aka a career.
Thank you all so much for your thoughts and help. I know I should contact a lawyer, but I haven't yet. I looked into it a little bit so far, but every time I just start bawling. It isn't fair. He's cruel and emotionless, but I love him, even though it is really stupid.
I understand that for some people, 22 is not an age that you'd even know that kind of thing, and I would for the most part agree, but I haven't really been my age since I was 11, and have never used the L word unless I meant it because I couldn't say it. He didn't love me. I was convenient, and more than he deserved.

Its ok. Tomorrow will be better. My mantra.

Shirashima #188: Getting out of the lease is likely something the lawyer can help you with. Should be fun seeing how he handles paying his own rent, huh?

Shirashima @188 -- Get a lawyer, pronto -- and separate your money from his as quickly as you can. (I'm praying you weren't trusting enough to have a joint checking account with him.)

I suspect that if your ex won't let you live in the new place, you can refuse to pay your part of the rent. You may have to place the money in an escrow account, but he'll have to come up with the difference if he wants a roof over his head. Frankly, IMHO he doesn't deserve one.

Here's hoping you get the job you interviewed for -- (sad grin) "time wounds all heels."

Anybody else see Sunday's episode of Once Upon a Time?*

JEEZus. Talk about hleppiness personified. ::shudder::

—

* Apologies to non-USAns; don't know if this is available elsewhere.

Shirashima @188: I understand that for some people, 22 is not an age that you'd even know

What one feels is what one feels, whatever one's age. The line "So-and-so is too young to know what s/he feels" is typically a line pulled by controlling "care"givers who really mean, "So-and-so doesn't want what I want hir to want, so I'm going to summarily discount hir experience and agency because it doesn't suit my agenda."

(Who me, feeling a little bitter and angry today? Why do you ask?)

Jacque: re "Once"--that's my mother.

Shirashima @188: My best wishes and most hopeful thoughts are winging through the ether to you. Congratulations on the double interview -- that's fantastic! Given the current job market, that says that you really wowed them. (Which doesn't surprise me.)

And don't sell your feelings short because you're "only" 22. I was married at 22, to the man I had loved since I first met him at 18, and that love was perfectly real and has endured the two decades since I met him. Your feelings real, they're valid, and no one else has the right to say otherwise.

Yesterday was better. Today will be better. That's a good mantra to have.

Shirashima: 22 is plenty old enough for feelings.

My parents met in college, when my dad was 18 and my mother was 16 (she skipped grades twice). They married 4 years later, when he was 22 and she was 20. They'd been together for more than 50 years when he died.

Jacque @192: *hugs* Anything in particular that has you bitter and angry today, or just the world in general?

Jennifer Baughman @196: *hugs back*

1. Too much to do X too little to do it with = Tired Tired Tired
2. Too little progress on life-work (see 1) = Frustration
3. Bad management + not getting listened to = Frustration & no sense of accomplishment @ work
4. 78fckng° in freaking March = They've Broken My Planet = FEAR
5. I haz a loneleez

Like that.

Jacque @197: Totally sympathize!

1. Yep. Right now I'm the Designated Well of Cope. *checks* And the well's not quite dry, but it's running low.
2. Oh Ghu why can't everything just work out already?
3. This, this, a thousand times this...
4. We hit 90° in February. February. I've got to ride the apartment management to try to fix some of the more egregious weathersealing and ducting problems in my apartment before full summer sets in. I may very well spring for professionals to lay tint on the windows in the office, at the very least.
5. *gives you a virtual hug and wishes she could help more with the loneleez* I'm lucky, I have Husband and beloved cats who make sure I'm not with the loneleez, but I understand.

And you're not alone. I'd invite you over for dinner and a movie, if I could.

I need to get hold of the GM of this particular LARP and give him a good shake, 'cause let me tell you, this is exactly the reason that you have to be careful when generating events via random table. Who the hell thought 'economic meltdown', 'political intransigence', and 'climate instability' went well together?

Jennifer Baughman @198: And you're not alone. I'd invite you over for dinner and a movie, if I could.

And I'd totally take you up on it, if I could. Of course, I'd probably spend the first half hour all "bwaaaAAAAAHHHHH I've—he's—I'm—it's—waaaaaahhhh!" But at least I got today's work crisis more or less beat into submission, more or less on time, so that's something.

Who the hell thought 'economic meltdown', 'political intransigence', and 'climate instability' went well together?

Well, now that you mention it...'cept I think #2 came first, but that's a different thread. Me, personally, I'm holding out hope for 12/21/12. ::SIGH::

Thanks for bein' there. :-)

Jacque: fwiw, I'd take you to dinner and a movie too. Or a show, if you could deal with the TKTS line.

Who the hell thought 'economic meltdown', 'political intransigence', and 'climate instability' went well together?

The Fourth Horseman likes the other three just fine. He thinks they make a swell team.

I posted once or twice a couple of years ago in the annual thread. Can't even remember the name I used.

to all my fellow mother-smothered: a hug and general positive reassurances.

My family re-established contact last year after I ignored my mother (and by association them) for a good 5-6 years. I drew my line, told her exactly what behavior I would not tolerate, she stepped over it, I stopped talking and ignored the guilt tripping voicemails.

Mom died after a surgery more than a year ago. I saw someone today who didn't know, an old acquaintance, and when mom came up in conversation, I told her what happened - she cringed and asked if I'd had a chance to have a last conversation with mom. When I told her they didn't call me before she died she cringed again - something that never occurred to me, that I should be upset that they didn't give me that chance.

I think you had to be a part of our family to completely understand why I didn't even think of that as something to be upset about.

I have sporadic contact with my father and brother, on holidays, and they don't seem to have expectations beyond that, which is fine - I have a life and it is full and good, and I continue to work on being less and less socially inept.

Godspeed to you all.

Ahhh.... Much better now. Managed about two hours of good painting this evening. It's amazing what that does for my disposition. Okay. The rest of the human race can live. For now.

Jennifer & Melissa: Thank you both again for the good thoughts.

if you could deal with the TKTS line.

Hey, I come out of the original Star Wars tradition. Drop off Crew A to claim a place in line, Crew B goes for take-out, reconvene in line and par-TAY till the show starts. Bonus points: chat up fun new folks while waiting.

Still kickin': I think you had to be a part of our family to completely understand why I didn't even think of that as something to be upset about.

No, sadly, not exclusive to your family.

Godspeed to you all.

And you, as well.

Jacque @203: very much like that, except there's rarely a need to split off for food. My favorite part is amusing the tourists, usually by engaging them in conversation about what's worth seeing. They often seem surprised to find "real" New Yorkers using the booth.

We hit 90° in February

I saw lilac blooming on the 29th of March.

Granted, it was in a nice sheltered spot that gets full sun, but still. This is Pittsburgh; lilac is supposed to bloom in May, if not June.

But there's no climate change. No, no.

Jacque @199:

Re: 12/21/2012 -- This was my joke reason for retiring 12/31/2011.

If whateverthehell happens I will have at least enjoyed a year's worth of retirement and being out of credit card debt.

Re: family problems -- I now have a few more spoons since I no longer have to deal with the frustrations of work. The ones that can be solved by having money thrown at them are being taken care of, the rest...I'm coping.

(Yes, I've posted anonymously to these threads in the past.)

Well, for once I have a bit of function to report: I have a coworker with whom my relationship has been ... fraught ever since I started working here several years ago. For no obvious reason, this person seemed to take an instant dislike to me. Things have ranged from civil to chilly between us ever since.

Yesterday in a meeting, this person stepped in several times to herd our boss back to the point of the meeting, keeping the whole effort from bogging down in argument over decisions that had been made months ago.

First, I'm grateful that I was able to turn loose of my fear of this person and actually notice this. Second, this morning I called this person aside and said an explicit "Thank you" for keeping our meeting on track. Made this person feel good, made me feel good, and maybe contributed a grain of positive energy to the office climate.

Let's hear it for positive reinforcement!

Jacque @203: Excellent! I got several hours of old-school gaming in last night (with old-school gamers, no less), and, despite the short sleep, am feeling similarly renewed.

John M. Burt @201: Bwwwwahahahahahahahha!

Still kickin' @202: Not exclusive to you at all. Congratulations on building a good and full life for yourself!

Anon Amos @208: Fantastic! Congratulations on the positive reinforcement and the personal achievement!

I think part of the reason I'm feeling pretty good today is that the game session last night resulted in a gig for my currently-unemployed husband; it won't pay much beyond a special edition of the book (assuming it gets funded), but it involves something he's really good at, and it's a skillset the people doing the project don't have. It's something he can do and not only feel useful, but *be* useful, which is a HUGE button of his, and something we've been struggling with since his layoff.

And I'm coming to accept that while my job may be dead-end, it's also not going away, and I have a fantastic team and probably the best supervisor ever, and the company will help pay for any undergraduate degree I want, and it's dead easy enough that I can probably handle full-time employment and full-time school (which I'd need to do -- we need the insurance.) (Insert health care rant, or not, it's all good.)

My optimism remains cautious and fragile, but, in general, it remains.

For reasons that are murky. I don't *think* I used a word of power...

gnomulated Jennifer Baughman:

I wonder if it's because of the way you spelled "Bwwwwahahahahahahahha". (I'm looking particularly at the three ws in a row, which the gnomes might have taken for part of a malformed web address.)

Now to see if the gnomes pounce on this comment too...

[Not 'www' but 'hahahaha.' -- JDM]

gnomulated Jennifer Baughman:

I wonder if it's because of the way you spelled "Bwahaha" - specifically, with three ws in a row, which the gnomes might have taken for part of a malformed web address.

(In the first version of this comment I spelled Bwahaha precisely as you did, and the gnomes Took An Interest, so I think I'm on the right track.)

Paul A: Ohhhhhhh, you know, I do that sometimes, so that might actually be it. I'll keep that in mind! Or come up with some other way to textualize slightly crazed laughter...

Jennifer Baughman @209: My optimism remains cautious and fragile, but, in general, it remains.

Your optimism sounds not-unfounded. I'd be careful of noising around about your good supervisor, though; s/he might get kidnapped by the less fortunate.... ;-)

& @213: hyphens between the "ha"s, maybe?

Hey, everyone, male and female, please go read this now:

dumb all over. a little ugly on the side.

Then have a look at this.

Both of those come to my attention via Elizabeth Bear, and they are for you, individually, each of you.

This is just to say
I have eaten
the crow
that was in
my workspace

for which
I was wanting
apologies
for me

not from me
it was necessary
the win
was to fold

Gah. More later, but I wish I didn't have the buttons that got pressed today.

@abi That is actually a wonderful article (saw the a softer world comic yesterday and it helped me out of a really really bad day). Thank you so much for the share.

@everyone else who has been supportive this week
I'm managing ok I guess. A lot of it is just being numb and trying not to think about it, but I have dealt with some of the major issues:
1. It is not entirely my fault that things got screwed up. I gave it my all, and he decided that wasn't good enough.
2. I am a wonderful person, with tons of people who love me. The fact that he doesn't is CLEARLY not my fault.
3. NO amount of love is worth being untrue to myself, and I should NEVER feel as though my best is not good enough.
4. There is no universe (apart from Bizzarroland) in which Brian "settled" in a marriage to me. I am a highly capable, not-unattractive person, and while I am not a perfect "grown up" yet, I'm also only 22, which gives me time.
5. The pain I feel will lessen with time, but only if I let it hurt now. I can't keep hiding behind a facade because that only means that no one knows that I hurt and need help.
Next step is taking care of getting a lawyer, which means finding out which county I would have to get the divorce through, or what happens with that, and finding out how to pick a lawyer who will help me receive the things that I deserve from the marriage.

Shirashima @ 217: I recommend looking for a collaborative practice attorney in your area. They're not the usual confrontational divorce lawyers, and can help with a nontraditional approach. This is not to say that a confrontational lawyer is a bad one; it may come to pass that you need a more aggressive lawyer in addition. The advantage of going to a collaborative practice attorney first is they look for the mediation and are often very good at helping people who are in a lot of pain. They're almost therapists, in a way. If you were local to me, I'd point you to the collaborative attorney who is currently handling our mediation.

@Ginger I've never heard of that. I will have to do that.

@Ginger, Shirashima - I am a big fan of networking (but not of hleping, so please disregard if that's what I'm doing); is it possible that Ginger's collaborative attorney may be able to recommend a colleague in Shirashima's local area? (I assume modly types can make individuals non-publicly aware of what the areas in question are.)

Fox@ 220: Good idea. Shirashima, feel free to email me. I believe our Good Mods can dig out my email address for you, with my approval. It can't hurt to ask for a referral.

@Shirashima and others, just a very, very gentle word of caution regarding collaborative lawyers, and I really hope this isn't hlepy. No, caution is the wrong word: I think I mean, awareness.

From my own experience, allbeit in the UK, I am a big fan of this kind of lawyer, and of mediation in divorce and family law cases. But as Ginger comments @218, it's wise to be aware that you may require a more "traditional" lawyer if the soft approach does not work. Effective mediation relies on at least a little good faith on everyone's part, not always present in divorces, and I've known judges who push for things to be sorted outside of courtrooms when this is not necessarily the best approach.

But a good lawyer will be happy to talk all of this through with you. Getting decent legal advice as soon as you're ready to do so is rarely if ever a bad idea.

Please, disregard this if it's hlepy.

An update on where I am: still waiting for an appointment with an ADD specialist, but that's expected as the wheels grind slowly here on these things. They've confirmed in writing that I'll get an appointment as soon as possible.

The last time I wrote here, I was pretty down. Since then, I've felt a lot better, as expected. I've never really monitored my moods before, although I've always known I had my ups and downs. What's useful this time is that I can check the date of my lowest point from the date my last post.

Strange to say it, but I'm actually interested to see the next time I get down, because thanks to these posts I'll be able to map the peaks and troughs for the first time.

Adding my word of caution to Of the World's. The friend I mentioned earlier, who spent 3 years in divorce hell? She used collaborative to start with and wasted 18 months and a lot of money dealing with her a** of an ex, who didn't want to be divorced as much as he wanted to control every aspect of her life and the children's lives for as long as possible.

The collaborative attorney did get the kids and eventually my friend into counseling, which was very beneficial, but the mediation was a complete waste.

Which is to say, start with collab. if you feel comfortable with it but do not hesitate to move to another type of lawyer if the other person is not living up to their side of the bargain.

Shirashima:

IANAL, but I think you should be able to get a divorce in whatever county you live in. (My parents had a change of venue on theirs, but that was because my father had been a judge for a decade or so by then, so he and/or my mother knew all the judges in the county they lived in. This is an unusual circumstance.)

I've not posted for a while, but I've been reading along, wincing in empathy and feeling for folk (and occasionally flinching).

I'm mostly in a good place these days. I have bad moments, but in some ways they are normal bad moments, that everyone has. Doesn't make them nicer of course, but... I don't know. It makes them less bad in some ways when I look back at them. And on the really bad days it makes me a feel a little bit better for them to be such a stark contrast because that means my other days are good. If that makes sense.

I've almost posted again on some of the flinching moments (then backed out because I didn't want to offend/annoy people), but after reading abi's link at #215, I had a little moment. Later that day I was trying on dresses, and I had to try and explain to my housemate why I liked one particular dress over the rest - I really struggled to do so because it would have required complimenting myself. I kept trying to come at it in a roundabout way, prefacing it with 'despite...'

In small moments of flinchworthiness, my sister yelled/snapped at me for rocking not that long ago. As it was my sister, it was only flinchworthy at the time, rather than festering, but still - it's not something I have control over. Rocking isn't my normal physical quirk, but I get the 'freak' reaction from most people enough that, well, it hurt when it came from a direction I didn't expect.

@Shirashima, wishing you strength.
@everyone else, thank you for continuing to read this thread and to respond, even when it's just to let people know they've been heard.

My parents are visiting for Easter. It will be more stressful than I expect, and disappointing, but not as bad as I am anticipating. Knowing that it won't be perfect helps, sort of a pre-disappointment. I have a plan for dealing with my mother.

I went to the Maundy Thursday service at my church today, and somehow, that was just right. I will be able to deal with the stress, it is not me, my parents are human people with failings and stresses of their own.

I miss them so much. Sometimes I miss the people I thought they were when I was little, and they could make it all right.

Nancy C. Mittens #226: Sometimes I miss the people I thought they were when I was little, and they could make it all right.

Yeah, that's rough.... On the flip side, as an adult, I've actually gotten to know my mother and step-mother as people, and hey, turns out they're kinda cool even with their flaws.

In general, You're Aging Well by Dar Williams seems appropriate to nestle in to abi's earlier comment.

Stefan S., amazing poetry. Please gift us with any other poetical musings you might develop.

Shirashima: My sympathies. It doesn't matter that your husband did not love you the way you loved him; your love is a real thing and you have been wounded. I hope that the understanding that this is not your fault acts as a salve to that wound & I am sending you best wishes for good and speedy healing.

ma larkey: My goodness. I do not know what to say other than keep strong and know that we support you in your bid for independence.

I'm going to a family Seder this Saturday as a favor to my sister. It may not be as bad an idea as it feels like.

The situation is that my aunt and uncle will be there, and they're none too pleased that I wasn't in contact with my parents or grandparents. Considering the family style, the topic may or may not come up when I see them.

The reason I stayed out of touch with my extended family is precisely that I didn't want to be told that I should be in touch with my mother. (She's dead now, as is my father and my grandparents.)

Just to be paranoid, I'm concerned that my aunt and uncle are comparing me to their daughter, who so far as I know, was a normal person who stayed connected to her family, did well, and died relatively young. And when I say comparing me to her, I mean that they'd make a trade if they could. I don't don't know if this is a reasonable thing for me to be concerned with to look at the situation-- I don't know my aunt and uncle well.

That may just be distraction.

And my sister asked me to dress well for the Seder, and has put up money for clothes. Shoes that fit well are a bottom line for me, and it looks like I'll either be wearing sneakers or (if I'm willing to take the time and am lucky) tai chi shoes. My feet are an odd size, and an experiment with mail-order shoes didn't pay off.

The clothes have taken time, hemming the pants will take time, looking for tai chi shoes (if I decide to do it-- I'm not sure that anyone even still carries them in Philly), I have logistical stuff to do for a more important project, and I have bad problems with anxiety and procrastination.

I've told my sister that I'm not doing anything like this again if this one goes badly-- that was the other bottom line besides comfortable shoes.

Anyway, I'm not knocking myself out to be unrecognizable in this-- email is fine if you know who I am. I just don't want this to be easy to google.

@229: AWMA (Asian World of Martial Arts, Inc.), 11601 Caroline Rd., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19154-2177, (215) 969-3500 ...?

@229: OTOH, if you can find some ergonomic stilettos, that could make the "if this goes badly" option more entertaining for you, at least. /evil_grin

Jacques, thanks, but that martial arts store is nearly 2 hours each way on mass transit.

What are ergonomic stilettos?

The general problem is that my shoe size is 8E.

Wishing strength to Nancy C. Mittens and Anonymous at the moment and anyone else whose weekend includes holiday family stress on top of the usual family issues.

Nancy C. Mittens, re missing the people you thought they were, it's been my observation that grieving the things you never had can be more difficult than grieving the ones you had and lost. (And as I was typing this, it's burst upon me that that applies to a current situation in my own life, and it's a useful insight for me. Though not pleasant.)

eleanor @225, glad to hear you are mostly in a good place these days. You have been heard. You said I've almost posted again on some of the flinching moments (then backed out because I didn't want to offend/annoy people). I suggest that you are unlikely to offend/annoy people here by posting those things. One of the reasons this community exists is as a place to post things like that to people who won't brush them away or tell you how you are supposed to feel. You are not expected to, but you are welcome to.

B. Durbin #228: "You're Aging Well"

And now I'm crying.... also passing that around.

It's a religious weekend facing my folks and I just got a message announcing an egghunt for Sunday--but in their uniquely passive aggressive way, no one has admitted that the only reason I got this message is that the folks want someone to cook, clean, and prepare breakfast, lunch, and decorate dozens of eggs for the party. They want this special someone to do this alone, because none of the other parents of children who will play have prepared anything, or at least, none of these said parents have the decency to ask me directly for help.

Nope, they want the breakfast and lunch and decorated eggs to materialize without a single word directly to me, without a comment or a complaint or a request for help. Because This Is What I Used To Do. For years. Because various sibs involved had Excuses why they didn't have time to cook or prepare stuff for their own kids---they went on church retreats, attended services, bought gifts for church mates, too busy for the actual "family reunion Sunday". But last year I spent the weekend out of town. This year I am in town, and do not have the spoons for this. Not when the host of the party is someone who used to hit me regularly and come into my room to molest me and threaten me.

I am spending this weekend on myself. Barricaded as usual. Not answering the phone. It is difficult to admit, but even good things get contaminated to me when an abuser asks for them. Even if it were something I would have wanted to do for the little kids. This is one weekend where I am grateful I don't have kids that abusers can use to emotionally blackmail me with, as it is, I feel vulnerable even when said little kids aren't mine.

A little more holiday angst:

We are going to my aunt's for seder tonight. There will be at least 18 people there, including 5 who are children or preteens. Because of this, my aunt will have 2 tables instead of 1, and that's where the trouble starts.

My teen and I are awkwardly placed in the family. I'm 5.5 years younger than my youngest aunt and 5.5 years older than the next person in my generation (my brother). For a long, long time, I was considered a "child" in the family. Then I procreated, and eventually that shifted me into the "adult" category.

But it created its own problem. My daughter is, like me, the first of her generation . . . but she's equally oddly positioned. My youngest first cousins (the children of that aunt who is only 5.5 years older) are 20 and 23 to my daughter's 16. The children of my adult first cousins and my brother are 11, 8ish, and 5ish. My younger first cousins are too old to befriend my daughter (at this point in their lives) and my daughter is too old to have much in common with the littler ones, and often is essentially asked to babysit them at family gatherings.

My aunt has decided to feed "the children" separately from the adults and then to call them back for what she perceives as the family friendly portions of the seder (I've suggested a more family-friendly haggadah to no avail). My daughter is too old to be considered a child, thank goodness.

But my aunt likes to "direct" things, which means she will be deciding which adults sit at which tables tonight. I suspect she is planning to have me sit with the adults (the aunts and uncles and my mother) and my daughter sit with the "kids"--my brother and SIL and the adult cousins.

This doesn't sit well with either of us. My daughter doesn't want to sit at a different table from me and really doesn't know the younger adults that well, and they really don't know how to talk to teenagers, so she'd sit in silence most of the time.

I don't want to sit with the old people. Even though I'm now "an adult" in their eyes, they rarely actually treat me as one. The only one of them I really like is one of my uncles by marriage--he's the only one who actually talks to me like a person, probably because he met me as an adult and takes me as I am now, without family baggage.

I really like my brother and my younger cousins. We don't hang out a lot but we're in touch online and over the years we've gotten to know and like each other as people, not just as family.

This may seem like an irrational fear but I vividly remember at one cousins' wedding, where the seating was planned by the same aunt, I was not seated with the family but at a table full of my cousin's single friends from work. My aunt's reasoning was that I was a single young professional. However, all of them knew each other, while I was a stranger, and while I was single, I was already a parent, which none of those people were. It was a disaster.

I understand that part of the problem is that if my aunt puts all of my generation at one table, we'll have to have "the big table"--the one in the dining room--and the older folk, the heads of the family, will have to sit at the smaller, portable table. But we do outnumber them!

It's possible that I'm angsting over nothing and that my aunt will let people seat themselves or that she'll cede "the big table" to "the kids."

But I doubt it; I know how much she likes to orchestrate things (a trait pretty much all the women in my family share, including me).

And, of course, my problems are a shadow compared to ma larkey's situation.

I've been that person that everyone expects will do what's needed even if not asked; I've stepped away and watched my social life disappear. But those were friends, not family, and they could learn (and mostly did). I'm a good organizer, and mostly I enjoy it, but I don't like _always_ having to do it, or for people to assume that I will _always_ do it.

I'm so sorry that you have to hide at a time when you should be able to enjoy yourself, in order to preserve your self. But preservation is paramount.

I support your choice, and I hope that someday you get to make a very different one.

Melissa @ 236

Could you bring an extra portable table, so they can all be strung together in a single long(or slightly tetris-like) table and everyone can choose who they want to sit next to? That's what we ended up doing. Then I'd let "my" aunt know that I appreciate how much work she always puts into these things, but this year the younger generation should get to treat everyone else by taking the lead on organizing...

ma larkey @ 235

Your family is so Not Cool. Can you find a friend (or series of friends) to hang out with over the weekend? I used to fairly regularly bike into the next town (I live about a causeway away from most of my social network) and then call up everyone I had in my phone and set up serial hangouts. It was fun. (The biking part is not necessary, but adds virtue! And endorphins!)

In the realm of odd synchronicities:

Husband and I went to a book signing by Joe R. Lansdale yesterday, which was both enjoyable and educational, and I'm looking forward to prying his new book out of Husband's hands. In the meantime, I went poking around for more information, and came across an interview with Mr. Lansdale and Andrew Vachss which resonated with me, and I thought I might share it with you.

[Joe R. Lansdale]: You notice there’s a connection in themes in our novels. Even though they’re very different novels, they’re very much dealing with the same subject matter, which is why I think that’s why we’ve always had a connection, and I think that’s why both of us this thing about family, and I think we both believe that’s it’s great if your blood family is wonderful, but we don’t necessarily believe that because if someone has the same blood that you have makes them family because they’re kin to you. We don’t think that that’s it, because it’s how you treat people, what you say about what you do rather than what you say, and I think in both of our books we are dealing with people who have come from damaged backgrounds and are trying to put some structure together, which I guess you could call family.

We have the power and the right to define our own families, blood or no.

I'm over here because this doesn't feel like it's going to be an open-thready kind of post...but it isn't really about family dysfunction, either. Maybe just my dysfunction. Or maybe my fears that I'm about to find new ways to be dysfunctional. Anyway, here goes, and if the mods tell me it's more OT than DFD, any follow-ups will go on the OT.

Anyway.

I've been overnighting at Union Station in Pasadena for just over three weeks. This entails my calling every weekday to confirm whether I will or will not be "awarded" a bed that night; on Fridays, it's for the whole weekend, and each weekend's stay entails going to the Passageways office to sign some paperwork explaining why I'll be at Union Station. This procedure (daily calls/weekend paperwork) is not a problem to me, as I understand that the bed I slept in last night might easily belong to a new full-time resident by tonight, and it strikes me that's as it should be.

Today, I called about this weekend and was told yes, I had a bed, and come on in to sign the paperwork. Which I did, and discovered that my case manager had filled in the "why guest is filling out this paperwork" question and included the remark, "Guest will return to this office on Monday, 4/9/12, to discuss other housing options."

Now, it's possible this means my case manager has gotten enough decent feedback about me from the staff that she wants to discuss making me an actual resident. Which would be awesome, as I like the staff, get along at least okay with most of the residents in the women's dorm, and find it convenient for the stuff I need to do (visit cats, go to library to plug in my laptop to look for work and otherwise catch up on the Intarwebz, etc.). And until a spot opens for me at PATH/Petco, I do still need a place to sleep and would really like for it to not be my car.

On the other hand, it's possible my case manager will tell me that nearly four weeks is enough, and my free ride is now over. Which I would also understand, since she knows my plan is to get into PATH/Petco and maybe the organization feels its resources will be better used placing someone who'll go all the way through whatever program Union Station offers, rather than someone who's going to essentially jump ship.

I am already fighting the urge to worry myself into a tizzy on the basis of absolutely no evidence for ANY conversational topic or potential outcome of said conversation.

***Stop the presses***

When I noticed the note about coming in Monday, I asked the very nice gal at the front desk if she knew whether my case manager had any particular time in mind for our meeting. She said she did not, and that my case manager wasn't scheduled to be in for another hour or so and why didn't I call back then? Well, I left Passageways to visit my cats, then came to the library, and making that call completely slipped my mind until I started this post. So I called and was transferred to my case manager's voicemail, leaving my phone number and asking what time she wanted to see me.

She just called back and told me it's pretty much a formality, just a reminder that I need to check in Monday to see if a bed will be available. She also said, or at least implied, that they're in contact in PATH in hopes of a spot opening up for me, and that they're willing to do this because they do not currently need my bed for a new resident. Should that need arise, she said they'd work with me to find other options.

Relief is nice.

On the other hand, when I went to visit the cats yesterday, the tech who took me through the medical area to where they're kenneled said the vet had asked him to ask me if I had any idea how much longer I would need my cats to stay. The tech did say there was no hurry, but now I'm getting worried that I'm nearing the end of my grace period with my vet. And I would completely understand that as well.

So I had to say no, I had no idea, and if I could come up with anything I would, but the only thing I could think of was surrendering them and (a) having given up 10 cats already, I just can't face giving up the rest and (b) I REALLY can't face the idea that any more of them will wind up destroyed.

Again, the tech said the vet said there was no hurry--so why am I scared?

And it all, still and always, comes down to finding a job, because I'm 99.9% sure that any residency/"transitional housing" program is going to require me to save some significant portion of my after-expenses income against the day I "graduate" into low-income or Section 8 housing and need that all-important first and last months' rent and security deposit...and it's hard to have post-expenses income when General Relief doesn't even cover my expenses.

And now I add in a heapin' helping o' guilt that I've only sent out five resumes this week instead of the 10 to 15 I told myself would be acceptable--I wanted to keep most if not all the job-hunting momentum developed during the GROW program.

Bloody effing hell, why do I do this to myself?

So as of this moment I am officially giving myself the day off, resume-wise, and commit to sending out at least five on Saturday/Sunday. I won't have much else to do on Sunday, anyway, since both the vet's office and the libraries I haunt will all be closed for Easter. I may just plant myself at a coffee shop for as long as possible and troll job boards.

On the other other hand, I went to Marina del Rey yesterday for lunch with one of my friends from the defunct clinic--and she not only treated me to lunch, she paid for my gasoline. She also suggested I journal about my experiences if I wasn't already, because she thinks it would make a killer book.

I got a little bit of writing done yesterday, recording some of the stories others have told me about their situations. Publication question: if I plan to change names and disguise some details to protect privacy, do I need to get releases, or at least permission, from the people whose stories I include?

Thank you for letting me vent and worry and ask questions. I have the BEST friends. :)

Syd, either location is fine. This conversation covers more than just familial dysfunction these days, and that's perfectly acceptable.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you.

Ohhhhh, Syd. *hugs*

I'm very glad for you that Union Station is working with you to find more permanent housing, or, at the very least, continuity of temporary housing.

If you can, for the moment (and I know it's hard), take the vet tech at his word? It may just be that the vet's forecasting kennel availability for the next month for appointments, etc., and so it really is just a request for information. And you're scared because you take your responsibility to the small furry creatures you love seriously, and you feel like you've failed the ones that were killed out of hand (even though you did everything you were capable of at the time. And because they're one of the few sources of stability in your life, and you're otherwise living in a perpetual state of uncertainty, and you love them and the thought of losing them hurts?

That's how *I* would feel. And I admire you tremendously for having the courage to wake up each morning and keep trying.

And please, let me reassure you that, in this job market, five resumes is progress. Husband's barely been out of work for three weeks, and he's already running out of appropriate jobs to apply for. Please don't think less of yourself for "only five". And maybe even instead of trying to send resumes out this weekend, give yourself a full weekend break and do something that nourishes you? It's a holiday weekend; no one's going to be posting jobs until Monday, so there's no sense in punishing yourself.

If you feel comfortable doing so, could you send me an email with your resume at my listed email address? (Or send it through abi?) Husband's had some contacts with people who need freelance work, and I might be able to pass your resume on to someone. I've also got feelers out to see if anyone we know has job possibilities out there. It's not much, and I wish I could do more.

Also, here are a couple of books you might be able to find at a library that explore the ethics of using personal life stories and anecdotes, and both, as far as I was able to tell, fairly well-regarded.

Telling True Stories
Writing Life Stories

I hope those help!

abi, thank you. :)

Jennifer Baughmann @ 243/244, I will happily send you my resume, but your name does not appear to have a link attached to it. If I may impose on abi to send it to me to my "word"-related email, I will then send along my resume--in two styles, even, one skills-based, the other a sorta-hybrid between skills and chronological. I use the skills one for straightforward proofreading listings and the other for things that appear to have some relevance to past job duties. Frex, I've applied for several jobs as a technical writer for either software or process documentation because, during my time in Corporate America, I was involved in a project very much like that--but mentioning it on the skills resume doesn't seem to fit since it wasn't for one of my clients.

Really, I am taking the vet tech at his word. Mostly. It's got a lot to do with how much the vet has already done for me (I will spare y'all the details of the Great Upper Respiratory Debacle of 2009, and Q's multiple hospitalizations for hyperparathyroidism, etc.). Suffice it to say that what I currently owe him exceeds the equivalent of six weeks' salary at the corporate job I left in 2004--and I made mid five figures annually.

I'd have stayed if I hadn't been afraid doing so would drive me right round the bend.

Anyway, if the tech said the vet said there's no hurry, there's no hurry. ***repeats to self several times***

Those book recommendations look very helpful, so I will check the catalogs at the various libraries I frequent and see if either or both are available.

And thank you, too. I don't feel all that virtuous, re: getting up every morning and trying, simply because I know that not trying isn't really an option. Unless I really do want to lose everything, and I so very much do not. :)

My mom seems to like her birthday present (I put together a basket with shower gels and some homemade washcloths, and also a pen with her name on it.), which I spent some time and thought and effort on; I had expected her to not like it and me to feel useless and rejected.

David Harmon, I love my mother very much, but she is not a person I would associate with voluntarily if she wasn't a relative. I try to appreciate her good points, and to understand why she is who she is, but it can be hard.

OtterB, that is so true.

Melissa Singer, you have my sympathy about the holiday seating issues. I've been in similar situations.

syd, [[hugs]]

ma larkey, congratulations on taking care of yourself, and on not letting you be used and abused.

ma larkey: Oh man. The worst part is knowing that they'll blame you for the debacle that falls on their heads, and you must remember it is not your fault that they can't handle these things on their own.

I hope that someday you can do those things again with enjoyment and for your own happiness, rather than having it forced upon you.

Syd: Hugs.

Melissa Singer: My family never did the adult table/kids' table thing until recent years—when I was growing up, we had a pretty big table and we sat close together. Now we're doing it at locations where we have to use more than one table, and the kids end up with their own table at Thanksgiving and Christmas. I find it suboptimal myself.

Syd, if you used to do substantial tech writing, you might be interested in a job in technical community management or evangelism (example -- sometimes this stuff lives in the marketing department, sometimes in engineering, sometimes someplace else in the organization). I'm a community manager right now and it's a good role for people with writing skills who like taking care of others. And often you can do it from anywhere with an Internet connection (I work remotely). You can see some community managers talking to each other on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/search/%23cmgrchat

Hey Ross, if you ever feel like helping me out with some Lua stuff, shoot me an email -- I need to develop a Lua training syllabus for an upcoming hackathon and I don't know where to start!

Got gnomed. Due to URLs, I presume, OR WAS IT THE HLEPINESS?! Only your moderator knows for sure!

[The phrase "shoot me an e-mail" did it. -- JDM]

Well if the gnomes can spot hlepiness, then the Making Light spam filters have developed human-equivalent Artificial Intelligence (or maybe better than human come to think of it)

Which wouldn't enormously surprise me, but would be a fairly awesome Easter gift.

Syd, Jennifer, check your email.

Syd, thanks for the update. Ongoing encouragement vibes beamed your way.

Syd, how can one help out a little financially with the cat boarding? I know this has been covered before, but I'm not sure what methods/contacts/etc. you'd prefer right now. If you'd prefer to reply via email, Abi should be able to see mine and pass it along.

Well, we were 22 people when all was said and done, 5 under 12 and the rest 16ish and up.

My aunt actually threaded the needle, to my surprise (I suspect her daughters influenced this). The younger children and their parents sat together for the pre-meal part of the seder (the children having already eaten). Then the children left and I, my daughter, and the other cousin (the one who graduated college last year) all moved to the "kids'" table to eat. Everyone was moving around anyway because my aunt found a way to set up a buffet table, so it was no big deal.

Doing the seder at two tables, one in the dining room and one essentially in the entryway, was very, very awkward.

Might be our last big meal in that house--my aunt and uncle are looking to sell and move into something on one level. (They are in their 70s and my aunt is having trouble with her hip.)

The Seder went quite well. I was welcomed, and not harassed about anything.

It's amazing how reluctant I was to write this-- I may have a background commitment to things being awful.

I've been having a very difficult time with privilege issues lately, i.e. getting someone to understand that certain behaviors and attitudes are actively harmful to me and our relationship. Since they're invisible to him, they don't really exist, and it's me being too sensitive and overreacting and dramatic. Oh, and a wimmen*, of course.

This person comes from a functional family. As Xopher once said, it's well nigh impossible to get someone like that to grasp just how dysfunctional dysfunctional can be; it's like attempting to explain 3D to someone from a 2D universe.

They don't get how some things can be triggery. There's nothing to trigger in them. Unfortunately, this fairly often leads to an empathy deficit.

*persistence of this attitude is going to be the dealbreaker. I do not need someone who insists on dealing with me as a woman rather than a person who happens to be female along with a lot of other things. I am already forced to deal with enough aggravation in Life In General that I don't see why I should expose myself to more of it in the rare cases that it's optional.

Persephone @ 253, thank you just for the thought. :)

I have forwarded the vet's info (and my identifying info re: making a contribution toward my cats' upkeep) to abi on a previous occasion, but I will happily forward it again if she doesn't have it readily to hand--abi, please let me know here if you need it.

And I want to make clear--because of my personal dysfunctions re: asking for help--that those of my comments which refer to money, whether directly or indirectly, are in no way a request for assistance from the Fluorosphere.

I'm saying this not because I believe anyone here thinks that's what I'm doing, but just to satisfy my need to have it said. I hope by doing so that I have not caused offense, and I apologize profusely if I have.

Persephone @253:

You have email on the address you use here.

Pendrift @256:

I don't think there's anything particularly empathy-draining about having grown up in a functional family. But then, I would say that -- I pretty much did. To a material degree, with the occasional footnote, but yeah.

What you're describing is a failure of empathy, or perhaps an overdose of privilege. Familial dysfunction is only one antidote to that (and it doesn't always work, by the way). You can get someone to see the 3D-ness of the universe on analogy from any number of griefs and sorrows.

What it requires is a willingness to listen, and to change. Those frequently, but not always, come with maturity.

abi @258: Yes. I stand corrected. Functional != empathyfail and I apologize for making that hasty conclusion, especially when I have been graced with so many counterexamples both here and elsewhere.

Sigh. On a more general "gah, go away, world" note, I try to start with a presumption of good faith on the part of the people I deal with until there is evidence to the contrary. I am tired of having to defend myself against the presumption of bad faith that I get in return from some of them. It's a no-win situation as it stands.

Anonymous at the moment @232: What are ergonomic stilettos?

This, she is a very small joke. (Although I have heard that there is a maker of ergonomic fancy-shoes out there somewhere. I don't do fancy-shoes, so I failed to not the maker's name.)

ma larkey @235: I am spending this weekend on myself.

Good for you! And we can hope (though we won't presume) that the passive-aggressors might take a clue when the lovely holiday meals and colored eggs don't magically appear all by themselves.

Syd: Take it from me: keepin' on keepin' on is virtuous. {{{hugs}}} Suggestion: sign up with Robert Half Technology. I actually had pretty good luck working with them when I was searching for work. They do the temp thing, and they do temp-to-hire. Remember that the secret to working with temp agencies is you call them. They say "we'll give you call if we have something for you." Don't believe it. I've become convinced that this is actually a secret test to see how motivated you are. Call them every day until they give you something. Then call them again the minute you get done with that job.

@Pendrift:

I have been that person. I had a college girlfriend from a dysfunctional family who I treated with a severe lack of empathy. Her dysfunctions and mine interacted in some nasty ways that resulted in me behaving in assholish ways that still make me cringe thinking about them almost a decade later. But I like to think that I learned from that experience, and am a much more empathetic person today. But I didn't start down that path until after she dumped me.

So the good news is that people can change, but the bad news is that it might take a break up to start that process, and in that case you're unlikely to be around to see the benefit.

@ Jacque 260:

I second everything you said about temp agencies. I got my foot in the door at my current employer through a temp agency. It's a great thing to do while you're looking for work, and while the pay is crap, it's still a lot better than nothing. But they do require some sitting on to get them to help you. (I sometimes felt like they sent me on interviews just to get me off their backs). I personally wouldn't call every day, but twice a week certainly wouldn't be too much or out of place. I found that their attention span lasted about 48 hours, and if I hadn't heard back in that long, it was probably time for another call.

I have a close relative who works for Robert Half (alas, in SF, not in LA) so I can at least say that she thinks they're good, though I have no personal experience with them. Depending on your skill set it may also be worth checking on OfficeTeam and The Creative Group, which are the Robert Half Administrative and Marketing temp agencies, respectively.

Syd@156
I hope things work out for you soon - goodness knows you've been trying hard for so long.

Thank you, everyone. As ever, your encouragement means more to me than I can say. I helps just knowing you're here. And Autarch, welcome to Making Light. Sometime soon someone will likely ask if you write poetry. ;)

HLN: Sitting in the library, Area Woman faces the doors to an auditorium where an event will shortly be held--it may even be in progress, although the door is still open. Please allow Area Woman to describe the poster for the event...

The background features the facades of a couple of houses, or possibly a couple of views of the same house. Near the bottom is a suggestion of jungle vegetation...and a coiled bullwhip. On the left side, in full-on Indiana Jones garb (including The Hat, The Gun, AND The Whip), is a man who Area Woman would guess is the presenter for the evening. The topic?

Foreclosure Boot Camp: How to Find and Buy Foreclosure Properties

Area Woman is strongly tempted to crash the proceedings and give the presenter a down-and-dirty lesson in economics from the "losing" side but fears she might get so caught up in it that she'd be late getting back to the shelter (where she is still being permitted to overnight, thank Ghu) or, more likely, she would find herself arrested for disturbing the peace.

Nonetheless, the temptation is strong...

Hmmm...I wonder if anyone in the audience has been foreclosed on and is hoping to find out if there's any way of buying back their own foreclosed homes? Wouldn't that be a bit of a twist.

Syd -

If it makes you feel any better (that is, if you have a strong sense of shadenfreude) it's my impression that those foreclosure seminars are deeply scammy, set up mostly for the person running them to sell stuff.

And echoing other posters here - Robert Half is a good temp agency. My studio uses them for a lot of their temp placement needs, and the temps from that agency are extremely professional and are often hired permanently. I can't remember the last Robert Half temp that we've had to send back.

I am feeling much better now. I got the job that will become a career, and I am so lucky that I have people behind me to help me when my strength just isn't enough. I'm taking it one day at a time, but I think I've finally got it through my head that it isn't worth it to fight for someone who would hurt me with no thought of consequences. I am a good person, and I deserve a thousand times better than that.

ma larkey: That is ridiculous that they would expect such things from you. I hope you had a good Easter on your own though.

Syd: I hope that things go much better for you. I've kind of been in my own little bubble lately, and not paying much attention to others. If I could I would help, but I'm kind of barely hanging on right now myself.

(stands on chair, waves arms, cheers, and whistles that Shirashima got the job!)

Shirashima: congratulations on getting the job!

Syd: continued good wishes flowing your way.

Going back a bit:
(1) Otter B @116 "knowing what it's like not being listened to may have made you a better listener, better at encouraging others, and thus be a way you can make the old experiences not a total waste."
(2) Lee @136: "something which I think is part of the difference between support and hlepiness.

Support is saying what you said -- that this bad thing happened and it sucked, but perhaps you got some knowledge from it that can be helpful to you in the present, which would be a form of salvaging something from the suckage.

Hlepiness is someone saying, "Well, see, you thought that was so bad, but you needed to have it happen in order to get this knowledge that is useful to you now." NO. There could have been other ways to acquire that knowledge which wouldn't have sucked."

Yes, exactly. Thank you, Otter for the initial post and Lee for your distinction between support and hlepiness.

The other one I have real problem with is this "only you can decide to let someone else's words hurt you." That really gets my back up and it's something I've seen in a book on non-violent communication which came highly recommended to me, and on some websites supposed to be helpful to people with assertiveness/self esteem problems. I consider this to be victim-blaming and absolving the speaker of any responsibility for the impact of their words: if someone says something nasty and I'm hurt by it, well, I've chosen to be hurt by it and I could simply choose not to be hurt. This implies that it's not the fault of the speaker at all. In contrast, "Some words are meant to wound and may hurt you, but you can learn strategies to lessen that hurt/cope with it better/get over it faster." is potentially helpful.

Comments?

Shirashima, congratulations!

dcb @267:
I consider this to be victim-blaming and absolving the speaker of any responsibility for the impact of their words: if someone says something nasty and I'm hurt by it, well, I've chosen to be hurt by it and I could simply choose not to be hurt. This implies that it's not the fault of the speaker at all.

This is victim-blaming in my view as well, because of the implication that I'm choosing to be hurt.
When I make the statement that X hurts me, I am making an observation, the same way I am when I state that I'm hungry, or cold, or tired.

There are reasons for the hunger, cold, and tiredness. Some are within my control, others are beyond it. And the ones beyond my control may be beyond anyone's control (it's minus 5 degrees outside), or I don't have the tools for it (I can't afford to pay for heating).

That sort of "you're choosing to be hurt" statement negates the possibility that certain reasons are beyond my control.

While I can learn strategies to cope better with X so it doesn't hurt as much in the future, this means that there will still be instances where I simply have no or extremely limited scope for intervention.

The speaker's (choice of) words are a subset of those instances. This means they are modifiable if the speaker recognizes this and acts upon it. I can't force someone to stop saying certain things, but they most definitely are not blameless, especially if the hurtful behavior is pointed out.

Pendrift, dcb: I spent my entire childhood being told that I was choosing to be hurt by bullies, because I "let it get to me" and "needed to just ignore it." Anything that was done to me was my fault because I had either done something to cause it or was inexplicably bothered by it. Seeing this discussion is helping heal those old wounds. Thank you.

Still reading, still witnessing. (Still having my own ups and downs, but the net direction is up. Recent realization: I was programmed to see the entire world as a network of interlocking levels of judgeyness, where if you fail even a little everyone who sees it will look down on you, and if you are smarter(=better) than them you inherently look down on them and must aspire to Higher Standards. Etc. :P Anyone else recognize this?)

Also - re: the ergonomic fancy-shoes discussion latest at Jacque@260: was Fluevog possibly the name? (I know nothing of shoes except what I pick up from my highly random friends, but I know a goth-geek style consultant who speaks highly of Fluevogs for that. Pricey as all hll, though, as any good ergonomic shoe will be. ;P

ergonomic fancy shoes: still pricy but less expensive than Fluevogs, one might consider checking out Naot - or hell, pretty much any dress shoe at The Walking Company is guaranteed to be more comfortable than most dress shoes.

The Walking Company doesn't carry them, but Clark's makes dress shoes as well as clogs and casual shoes. I wore this shoe to my father's funeral and walked over a mile from the chapel to the columbarium at Arlington without my feet hurting. (I didn't think it would be that far.). Clark's outlets and shoe discounters carry these for around $69.99. I got mine brand new, never worn, at Goodwill, for $4.75.

Sudden bursts of tears characterize my days. The sadness surprises me, and it's often to do with mourning the family I won't have---something as simple as an account of a young man caring for his grandmother startled me into realizing that I will not see my grandchildren--that is, even if I do have the insane luck to reproduce, and that isn't likely either. Mourning absences seems to be a specialty of mine, I would be the mayor of Passing Tears if there was such a place. And yet, I want to refuse gratuituous drama or pity. It passes, the grief, as sudden as a cloudburst. And afterwards I try to make some sense of the pieces left wet and gleaming, the lost years I didn't spend having children or grandchildren, the years that coalesce into this moment of my making peace with my empty hands.

Clark's makes some good stuff, but little of it comes wide enough. Also, I'm procrastinating on replacing my Clark's sandals, since they no longer make the model I'd gotten very used to, and which was the only thing other than my New Balance sneakers and one pair of boots/snow sneakers that actually fit.

Oh, those snow sneakers: they're from Merrell, most of whose other shoes don't come wide enough. My girlfriend hunted these down on the company website a year or so back. I'm also an 8E or 8EE.

#273 ma larkey: you are not alone. Thanks for putting into words an experience too often shoved into the closet. I can regret paths not taken (even if I think my path was a series of choices that made sense for me) but I am loathe to be honest about discussing that feeling since it feeds into too many regressive tropes.

On shoes, try finding comfortable formal dress shoes for women that are reasonable to walk in, and are vegan. It seems to be a null set.

Pendrift, Persephone: Thank you! Good to knowI'm not the only one who feels this way. It's really disappointing to get it in a book that's recommended as helpful.

Shoes: Try Terra Plana? They have some vegan shoes, and their shoes are designed to be comfortable. I've only got their running shoes, but I'm thinking of looking at some of their others.

Today it hit home that I should probably give up on trying to work through conflict with my family. They don't listen and are unlikely to start any time soon, and with that they're unlikely to change.

It's just wasted effort.
Things aren't going to get better.
I feel like I just lost my family.

cayce:

Heard and witnessed. Unfortunately, I have family members that I have very little contact with for very similar reasons.

(Male relative -- control freak -- verbal abuser)

While there I times I must interact with him, distance is my friend.

Cayce @279: Sympathies.

ma larkey, #235: even good things get contaminated to me when an abuser asks for them

This is neither unusual nor unreasonable as a reaction. Bad associations can ruin good things; the best way to keep that from happening is to do what you're doing and keep those associations from forming in the first place.

Nancy, #246: Yay for small blessings!

Shirashima, #265: Yay for not-so-small blessings! Landing a good job is Big Mojo, and will send reverberations thru the rest of your life.

dcb, #267: That line about "other people can only hurt you if you let them" is toxic bullshit. It's a get-out-of-jail-free card for bullies and abusers. "You were hurt by this thing that I said with the express intention of hurting you? It's your OWN DAMN FAULT, you loser!" Fuck that.

There's a related "self-help" version of this which says that if you're in a bad situation, you need to ask yourself "What am I doing to make this situation happen?" NO. The proper question is, "What aspects of this situation do I control, and can I change any of them, and if so how, and if not how do I get the fuck out of here?"

ma larkey, #273: This is a normal stage in the grieving process -- you're grieving over the acknowledgment that you never had a genuine family, and the choices that cost you. You seem to be handling it as well as anyone does, and better than some.

Cayce, #279: That's a hard and painful realization, but it's also the first step toward building yourself a better life. GoodThoughts being sent.

Shirashima, congratulations!!! I hope the beginning of your career is wonderful, and leads only to more wonderful!

And please, the fact that you wish me well is a BIG help to me.

I mean that. As you may also have experienced, being acknowledged and supported emotionally by a community ***waves thank-you to the Fluorosphere*** is incredibly important when one feels all at sea. In other words, thank you for being there. :)

dcb, pendrift and Persephone, when I would come home in tears after a day of teasing by my classmates, my mom would tell me to ignore it because they were only doing it from jealousy (I was pretty much always at the top of the class scholastically...and at the bottom socially).

You know what? It didn't help--I still hurt.

That is to say, I agree that "words will only hurt you if you chose to let them" formulations are damaging and victim-blaming. It's really a short hop from that to "(target) asked for it." Not acceptable. Belittling. Harmful. Callous. And those are its good points.

ma larkey, cayce: heard and witnessed. Good mojo on its way to you both, should you wish it.

It's taken me a while to deal with what happened last Saturday.

My mother turned to me in the car, when it was just the two of us, and said, "I wish you weren't angry at me all the time." I told her the truth - I'm not angry at her anymore. A long conversation ensued, and she has agreed to work toward equal, give-and-take conversations with me. They do happen, so they can happen.

Part of the conversation was an airing of grievances on my part - I got a chance to say what hurt me so much when I was younger, and have her actually hear me. It's water under the bridge, but it was so amazing to actually be heard. It was a real gift.

I never thought I'd have that conversation with her.

I feel like this is some sort of breakthrough; at the same time, I don't expect much change. It is a very hard thing I am asking for, and I would not be surprised if she can't do it. But I hope she can.

Shirashima #265: Congratulations!

Nancy C. Mittens #284: Excellent!

Nancy C. Mittens @284: A long conversation ensued, and she has agreed to work toward equal, give-and-take conversations with me. They do happen, so they can happen.

Wow. You just put your finger on something.
It's bothered me lately that I feel indifference (or at best mild curiosity) for certain relatives and "friends", even though I know they care about me, while I have a great deal of affection for others, and I couldn't figure out why.

This is the reason. Thank you for that.

Let's give this a go...

I'm hesitant to write about this, because it's personal family stuff, and it's also economic. What it is is maximally dysfunctional.

A bit over eleven years ago, Sibling A succeeded in selling off the family farm located in country X. The money from the sale was invested, by him, on behalf of our parents and the income was supposed to go to them. Then our father died and the income was supposed to go to our mother.

To complicate things, our mother lives in country Y, while I live in country W, Sibling A lives in country T, and Sibling B, of whom more in a minute, splits his time between country S and country Z. Country Y has a decent system of public welfare, even for people like my mother who has spent most of her adult life in countries X and T. I have thought of having my mother move in with me in country W, but am discouraged by the fact that it is not known for the quality of its services but well-known for their cost.

Anyway, I learned from Sibling B last week that Sibling A had stopped sending the monthly payments from the fund from the sale of the family farm for some 18 months and had informed our mother that both Sibling B and I knew of this. To say that I was outraged would be a very mild description of my emotional state. Sibling A was also recovering from a major medical procedure.

Sibling B had some plans, which involved taking charge of the situation and my taking the role which Sibling B assigned to me. I informed Sibling B that I was grateful for having been apprised regarding what had happened, and, having been given the information it was up to me what I did with it. Since Sibling B's proposal involved that sib's lying to our mother about my role, I was not happy about it. I was seriously contemplating flying to country Z and explaining this to Sibling B with a 2X4. But I decided that this would not be the most sensible of approaches.

It took an exchange of several e-mails, involving my explaining repeatedly that I could count up to twenty without taking off my shoes, that I understood that a woman in her eighties was liable to die at some point, and that I wasn't about to discuss the details of my finances with Sibling B to get that Sibling to understand that I was going to do my part and that there was no boss on the job.

Meanwhile, I'd also spoken to our mother, and found that she wasn't well. This has meant repeated phone calls. I was able to verify that while Sibling A did have power of attorney for our late father, that did not extend to having co-signing authority on our mother's bank account in country Y.

Finally, Sibling A phoned me this morning to let me know about the major operation and to ask if I'd heard from Sibling B. I heard Sibling A's side of the story -- it's the fault of the economic downturn -- but I'm not sure I can believe it. However, Sibling A did email me information I will need to set up a bank transfer for our mother.

At this point, I am still very angry at both my sibs. At Sibling A for allowing things to drift into this state, if drift it was, and for lying about it. At Sibling B for proposing to solve the problem with yet more lies -- to the effect that money from Sibling B would be from Sibling B and myself, while I would in fact be putting money aside for an emergency/funeral fund.

No name @ # 287: there is no situation, no matter how dire, that can't be made worse by one relative lying to another relative and trying to bring you into their lies. You have my sincere sympathy.

Oy, no name, no pack drill, that sounds horrid.

Oh, and shirashima, congrats!

Thanks, everyone.

Nancy C. Mittens - I'm glad for you, and wish you the best of luck.

No name, no pack drill @287: sympathies. That sounds awful. Lying about what you're doing with somebody else's money is bad. Pulling other people into the lie by saying they knew about it when they didn't is at least as bad.

Good luck for getting things sorted. Continue venting if required; we're listening.

Good thoughts, good mojo, prayers, appeals to the Light, candles, etc., will be greatly appreciated the morning of April 24, because...

MY INTERVIEW, LET ME SHOW YOU IT!!!!!

It's scheduled at 11:30 AM PDT in the OC, for a contract (possibly to permanent full-time!!) position as a policies and procedures writer. (I didn't specify just that time in my request for good wishes because hey, traffic and other vehicular things--it's LA/OC, after all. 0.o)

I am SO happy right now. :) :) :) Even if it should happen that they choose another applicant, I actually scored an interview!

Syd: Mazel tov! And: crossing all available appendages.

Syd @292:

Cool! Interview! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Good luck, Syd!

Best wishes, Syd!

Good mojo aimed your direction. Good luck, Syd!

Syd@292: Wow! All good wishes - best of luck - positive thoughts...

Bright Blessings, Syd!

Best of luck, Syd!

Putting "send good thoughts to Syd" on the calendar for that day!

You are awesome, Syd!

I give you what blessing I can, Syd! You go!

BOL and fingers crossed, Syd!

Best of luck for tomorrow, syd.

I'll be thinking in your direction on Tuesday!

Good luck, Syd!

Yay for interviews! Good luck, Syd!

Syd: much best wishes in your general direction, now, and again then.

Go, Syd, go!

Best of luck, Syd!

Syd: Mazel tov!!

Oh, good luck, Syd! Good luck indeed!

ma larkey @273 - I hear your grief, and share some of the same myself. I don't know your backstory, but it sounds like there are similarities to mine...molestation in childhood, postponed childrearing. When I did get up the nerve to have children, it wasn't happening. I too grieved for all of the lost might have beens. Recently, after much medical intervention and cost, I was able to have a baby - but in the process of getting there, my mother passed away. So I have regrets about that, plus the recognition that I too might not live to see my grandchildren, if any. If I were there, I would hold your hands and cry with you.

Apologies to all, but I need to vent a little.

Husband and I have not been keeping the apartment up very well; between a combination of job stressors, then unemployment, depression/anxiety/ADD, we let it go pretty badly since last Halloween. However, as we got diagnoses and have been getting appropriate meds, we've been improving on that front; it's been slow, but we'd been making a lot of progress. We'd even started a real spring cleaning, organizing books, starting to purge things we didn't need.

Meanwhile, the management of our apartment complex changed hands, and the new management decided to catch up on the pest control (previous management had neglected it for 2+ years, and in Texas, that means roaches). We've done our best to keep them down, but between our own problems and the lack of building-wide attention, they've been a problem.

Two weeks ago, the exterminator came in, on the worst possible day; I was behind on dishes b/c we'd both been down with a stomach bug, and we'd had to run some errands that day, which meant I hadn't gotten to them yet. Exterminator said something to the apartment management, who told us to get the apartment cleaned up. Not unreasonable, and Husband and I talked it over, and finally decided to bite the bullet and get a cleaning service.

This has been problematic for me, because one of the dysfunctions in my family was that I was pretty much the unpaid help, and I could never quite do housework to my father's expectations. So once I was on my own, I was either in a state of overdoing it, or not doing it at all and loathing myself for it. And I'd wanted to clean the apartment *myself* to prove, I guess, that I was a real adult. (Because real adults do housework as needed, right?) Meanwhile, the state of the apartment has been an enormous stressor, and a drain on other things we've wanted to do, etc. and so forth, and I needed to swallow my pride. (Which, when it came to the crunch, was easier than I expected.) And I called the management and asked if there were any special requirements they had, and they said, "it just needs to be clean". Well, duh.

So Tuesday rolled around, and the cleaning service did a fantastic job, and Husband worked his butt off, and the apartment maintenance guy did a cursory walk-through and left us a note saying 'still not acceptable', without any explanation. (Or explanation to the management, either.) It took me a full day to get any sort of explanation, and to get the actual apartment manager to take a look, and we finally got the explanation that they wanted us to get rid of the cardboard boxes and empty the cabinets for the exterminator.

I ended up having a heart-to-heart talk with the apartment manager, and I finally got her to understand, I think, that we'd been bending over backwards to cooperate with them, but they had a real problem communicating with us. And she agreed, and I figured the problems had been resolved. Until Tuesday, when the maintenance personnel showed up to make necessary repairs with no notice, and were unhappy that things had not been moved to allow them access. (Which we didn't know they needed, because see above about poor communication.) We took care of it that night, they came back the next day, everything was fine.

As if that weren't enough, we've been trying to help navigate a turbulent situation with a family friend and his grandson, who is a recovering drug addict recently out of rehab. Against better judgment, the friend allowed his grandson's girlfriend to move in with him. Which resulted, last week, in a complete family meltdown, all parties involved (save Husband, who was asked in as a mediator then promptly ignored) behaved badly, and grandson and girlfriend walked out.

Grandson, after several days of discovering that a non-emancipated 17-year-old and his 16-year-old girlfriend can't get a lease, or sign other contracts, or do much of anything as an adult, and discovering that said girlfriend prizes ring for self-pierced lip over eating for the next month, returns home; girlfriend is also returned home, despite trying to cry her way back into everyone's good graces.

Drama continues this morning with someone trying to get into our apartment (with a key!) at 6 am, and the grandson going missing for several hours.

I can haz break, pleez?

Thank you all...yesterday turns out to have been a very nice day, overall, because in addition to scheduling an interview, a friend treated me to a spur-of-the-moment pre-interview facial; when she saw how red my face was afterward (sensitive skin), she gave me too much money to buy an instant cold pack and a blemish treatment (because I do tend to break out when the nerves are up) and said I should put the rest in my gas tank; and when I went to the local Whole Foods to see if they had my blemish treatment of choice, they did; and as I was walking out with my purchase, I passed a gentleman sitting beside an empty massage chair. He said hi, I said hi, and also that if my interview next week panned out, I'd be back to have him work on me but right now I was broke.

He asked, "When you say 'broke', do you mean muscles or bones?" I said neither and pointed to my purse--"Broke here!"

He--Roger, his name is, very nice British guy who was pleased to learn my name is Syd because he named his daughter Sydney--told me to sit down and gave me a five-minute freebie.

Heavenly.

And to add to yesterday's news, I got a message from the property management company where I've interviewed twice already. To recap the last one, on GR I can't afford to be a part-time apartment manager, and don't have enough experience (that would be any experience) to be a full-time manager.

So I get the message yesterday, and yet another property manager wants to interview me! About a property in Anaheim! For which I need at least some experience!

Oh, wait...

Anyway, I called back this morning and spoke to the admin who'd left the message. And I let her know the results of my previous interview and said to thank the manager very much for thinking of me but I probably shouldn't waste her time by coming in, since I don't have experience. So the admin puts me on hold a few minutes, comes back and says that this manager is aware I don't have any experience, but they do offer their incoming apartment managers some training opportunities and she (the manager) would still like to interview me.

So I'll be in Downey at 9:30 Monday morning.

In the meantime, I'll be researching the company of Tuesday's interview.

Also, when I called this morning to confirm whether I would or would not be overnighting at Union Station again tonight, I wound up speaking to a man who is one of the head honchos re: actual residency as well as overnighting. (My case manager being out this week. I've met him briefly a couple of times, when I've signed "overnighting for the weekend" paperwork.)

Head Honcho asked me if I'd had any updates re: getting in at PATH, and I said no (having emailed my PATH case manager on Tuesday and her having no news re: PATH/Petco). I also let him know about my upcoming interviews.

So Head Honcho said (1) yes, I'm on the list for tonight, and (2) tomorrow morning, when I come in to sign my weekend paperwork (yay!), he and I should have a chat. Which could be a negative (e.g., if I'm not planning to become one of their residents, then they'll have to cut me off as an overnighter, which I would understand, unhappy as I'd be about it), but sounds more like a positive, so that's what I'm going to concentrate on.

I am, in fact, cautiously optimistic on many fronts.

And I'm giving myself the day off. :) Elephant Quest, here I come!

Respectful greetings to Roquat Rufus, Rex Gnomi, from one whose comment in the neighborhood of #315, has been captured by his most efficient minions. This one would point out that there were no links in the comment in question, no multisyllabic renditions of HA!, and no Word of Power, although she admits herself ignorant of the full extent of the list of said Words and acknowledges she may have stumbled on one accidentally. Or mayhap she missed a space after a comma.

Again, it's a long one, but that hasn't been a nabbing issue of itself.

She respectfully requests release of said comment, and adds all appropriate expressions of gratitude.

Jennifer @ 314, yikes! Vent as needed (but you already know that), and 6:00 bloody AM is too early for any maintenance activity (or visit from apartment management), and my understanding is they can't enter your apartment with their own key without your permission (but IANARealEstateL).

Hugs and good mojo on all fronts, and good luck for effective resolution at home and re: the family drama.

My dear Syd,

it is unfortunate that the company which called you, and was so flexible about previous experience, is in a business which sends us so many tasty, tasty morsels, whose bones we carve into tea services. However, the pleasure of your company makes up for any missed opportunities to replace the saucer which one of our younger and more enthusiastic members mistook for a Frisbee.

And while I have your attention, may I offer my most sincere congratulations on the good fortune you have been experiencing, and my heartfelt wish that it may continue?

Yours, etc

RR, RG

Jennifer Baughman @314: In your place, I would be sorely tempted (with the collusion of other, legitimate, household members and staff that you have hired) to mount a spring-loaded seltzer bottle aimed at the front door, and post a note on the outside of said door saying, "Unannounced entry at your own risk."

Syd: Yay, on several fronts! We hopeses for many more pleasant blessings to waft your way upon dulcet spring breezes.

RR, RG: How many online communities have spam filtration of such cultured demeanor and impeccable manners? I mean, srsly?

Syd @315 & 317:

I am very, very glad to hear that your fortunes seem to be turning; may they continue to spin in an increasingly salubrious manner!

For management-initiated entries, yes, we're supposed to get 24 hours notice. However, it's the general consensus (which seems reasonable to me) that a renter's maintenance request gives implicit permission to enter during normal business hours (or at other times in an emergency), until the maintenance has been completed.

The 6 am entry attempt, I think, may not have been a break-in attempt, just someone tired and confused, maybe from an overnight shift. It would not surprise me if our complex used the cheapest doorknobs available, which have a limited variety of key variations, and it was just coincidence that her key worked on our door. Nonetheless, there will be a re-keying of our door, for security's sake.

The really annoying thing isn't the maintenance people coming in, etc. It's that they have these expectations that they don't bother to communicate to us, but somehow expect us to be aware of anyway. Sadly, despite much experimentation and more than a little mad science, neither Husband nor I have developed telepathy between anyone but each other.

Ah, well; having vented, I feel better, and am reminded that this, too, shall pass. (Not, it is to be hoped, like a kidney stone.)

Jacque @319: We have a rather large collection of NERF guns, at least one of which does auto-fire. Hmm. That, plus a webcam--no, better yet, the Kinect... clearly I'll need pictures of everyone who's *authorized* to come in... facial recognition... Brilliant!

Jennifer Baughman, sympathies. It sounds like you did the reasonable thing getting in a cleaning service - keeping up is always easier than getting caught up. Wishing you better communication.

And Syd, glad to hear continued good news.

Jennifer Baughman @320: clearly I'll need pictures of everyone who's *authorized* to come in... facial recognition... Brilliant!

...And rig it so that, once triggered, it deploys a sign that says, "Be happy it wasn't a cream pie!"

Syd: Contratulations, and best of luck!

Jennifer: Ouch. I've pretty much accepted that I'm not going to be able to keep up my apartment by myself, and have a housekeeper come in once a month. (A sweet lady, who also dog-sits my dog when needed.) Also, good luck with the grandson! It sounds like he's learned some important lessons....

Jacque and Jennifer: You've seen the Flo Control Project, right?

elise @324: That is really, really neat! Thanks for sharing it!

Also, I passed that on to a geeky friend, who shared The Backyard Militarization Project, presented at a Python con she attended this spring.

[There was a time when slideshare was one of the more fertile sources of sustenance and crockery for our office. We became wary of it then. -- RR, RG]

Alas, ML's feature recognition software appears to have incorrectly flagged one of my posts as being of the vile tribe of Spam. I can assure you, even though there may be one or two points of similarity, that nothing could be further from the truth, and humbly request release of my poor, slightly innocent post.

[Slideshare.net : frequently advertised by spam. -- Callogus Roconzan, Duty Gnome.]

Jennifer Baughman @326: So you can warn your maintenance folks, that if they don't behave themselves, you're equipped to go all technological on their ass....

Apologies, I've had fewer spoons than usual, recently. Seventeen years, and I'm still a bit stretched the week around the anniversary of my father's death. But I'm happy to see so much positive movement and courage, for and by so many people. Positive vibes for everyone; I'm a bit exhausted, so they're rainbowy tonight. Awesome. People can pick the colors they like.

Also, sparkles.

Good night...

Syd, I'm wishing you the best of luck!

Some weird shit happened at my end.

I'd posted (in re cryonics) that I cared more for preserving my temperament than my memories, and was asked for details because this is pretty unusual.

So I was poking around in my head and find such stuff as that I love watching the waves come in, and I care more about being the sort of person who loves watching waves come in (assuming I have the chance to do so now and then) than for memories of watching the waves.

Part of this is probably that my memories tend to not be very vivid.

And then I realized that the act of remembering events in my life always has some pain associated with it. I'm pretty sure this is accurate, even though it's a wide generalization.

Since then (about half a day), my verbal memories about my life are intact, but the sensory memories are almost completely shut down.

This doesn't feel bad-- it feels something like a legitimate patch-- but what is it? Is it a problem? Have you heard or experienced anything like it?

I've got therapy scheduled for sometime in the near future. I'm not sure if this is exactly within my therapist's range, but I'm not sure what sort of therapist would be a good choice.

Anyway, I'm interested in what anyone can find to say about this, but please let me know if it's based on speculation or personal knowledge or you read something like it or whatever.

Does it make sense to say I feel bad because I had good days yesterday and today?

Between the weather changing for the nicer, and my going all-out in trying to get a problem resolved*, I'd been... happy. Able to laugh at absurdities which a day earlier would've made me mad. And then at the end of today I got an email which was just too much (just at the end of today, too, requiring an extra hour at work on a Friday, while the sender was enjoying a lovely dinner elsewhere).

The happiness melted away, and I can't tell if I'm more annoyed at the loss of a good feeling, or of having spent two days without the background stress.

* all-out as in I cannot tell myself I didn't do everything I could do. I did. Cannot know if it will work for a while.

Nancy Leibovitz @330:

I think your impulse to talk to a therapist is a good one.

FWIW, I rarely have strong visual memories. Most of my memories go through a verbal processing filter and get stored descriptively. It has to be really something to get kept visually. And there are times of my life for which I don't even have much descriptive memory. I think I know why—alcoholism and family breakup—but I seem to have erased or failed to save a bunch of stuff.

But the awareness of this has not triggered a shutdown in my processing modes. That's the thing that leaps to my attention. On the other hand, if it feels OK to you, then it's probably not a sign of new injury.

So yeah, talking to a therapist sounds reasonable. But sense-check what they say against your internal compass, which sounds pretty reliable. And don't be afraid to get a second opinion if the first one isn't working with the way you operate.

Variant of last time @331:

The way I run it in my own head is "Any happy day is a victory. No one can take that away from me, even if the next day subsides back into the sludge."

Nancy Lebovitz @330:

Something very similar happens to me, though not all in one go as you describe.

I have few vivid memories but the ones that stuck always involved pain of some sort, whether the good bittersweet kind or the bad damaging sort.

In recent years, I've noticed that after significant life events, when the memories are replayed, I see it through the eyes of a meta-me watching from afar. The details are very clear, but the sensations are dulled. I become a dispassionate viewer of my past.

I've been puzzled by it, because the sensations were so intense as they happened that the discrepancy can be startling. I can sometimes relive the experience to a certain degree by writing about it. But calling it a patch makes sense.

Watching the waves come in. That struck a chord, because I also want to live experiences as intensely and as deeply as I can. Tying that back to the fact that the sensations fade away so quickly, I wonder what came first. Which one is a patch for which?

It doesn't feel like a problem to me for two main reasons: it hasn't gotten in the way of experiencing strong feeling nonetheless, and being able to look back sans sensory overload at events in my life makes it much easier for me now to discern my patterns of behavior, recognize when I'm doing something again, and not act on certain knee-jerk reactions that have been damaging in the past.

These days, knowing that there will be bad memories whether I like it or not, I seize opportunities to create memories that are both beautiful and good. So that on the rare occasions I want to look back at my life, I know there'll be things I will be glad to see.

Hallo, it's me again, still lurking along from the last thread. Sending good thoughts to you all, I'm still reading.
My situation is kind of a mess right now. It's been a mess for a while and has just now come to a head. Incoming info-dump....

I'm at the end of my first year in a two-year culinary program at my local college, and I'm under pressure to find a job in the industry for a co-op. I don't want to continue down this path, but my mother isn't having any of it.

The first problem is I'm really unsuited to working in a kitchen. I'm scared of fire, I can barely single-task, let alone multitask, and I've got ADHD and focus issues. The second problem is that I have absolutely no idea what I want to do instead. I've never known, and any time I'm required to think about it I get really upset and just shut down.

My mother knows all this. I told her last August, and her response was, essentially, "Fine, if you can find another program you want to do instead, I'll pay the tuition for that. Otherwise, move out and get a job." She's saying the same thing now, but the same problems still apply. It's frustrating, and I just feel like she's not listening to me.

There's a bunch of factors that make this even more complicated. I have ADHD pills and diabetic supplies to pay for once my mother's drug plan stops paying for me. The plan covers me for either another 18 months, or 5.5 years if I'm still in school by then. So there's a lot of pressure to stay in school and/or get a REALLY well-paying job. That's why I'm even in this program. My parents are convinced that getting certified in a trade I'm terrible at will magically make me super-employable, as opposed to my father's arts degree, which has got him a series of increasingly-crappy retail jobs.

I can't just drop out and do what I like, because my parents know as well as I do that "what I like" is sitting around browsing Tumblr and watching videos and crocheting aimlessly. And my mother has watched her sister and my father do pretty much the same ambition-less sitting-around-the-house for decades and she's kind of fed up at this point.

It's complicated, and I don't feel like it completely belongs here. Sorry if I'm boring/out of place/confusing.

#335: I think you've laid out things very well, and I think this is the place for such.

Phenicious, #335: My parents are convinced that getting certified in a trade I'm terrible at will magically make me super-employable

BTDT, although it didn't come up for me until my mid-30s when I got laid off and was having trouble finding another job in my field. Then two things happened:

1) First, my father tried very hard to pressure me into getting a degree in accounting. He loved accounting, and had himself been pressured into getting a degree in education and trying to be a teacher, a job for which he wasn't suited at all; when that crashed and burned, he went back to accounting and happily spent the rest of his working life doing that. He was sure that it would be the same for me, and the idea that I did not like accounting and had no aptitude for it just didn't register. We went around and around about this, until I finally called some of the local accounting firms and asked them this: "If I go back to get an accounting degree now, I'll be nearly 40 by the time I'm done. Will I be employable in accounting at that point?" The answer was, politely but unanimously, NO -- that I would be competing for entry-level jobs with people in their 20s, and no employer was likely to hire me. Which was exactly what I'd thought, but of course he wouldn't believe it when I said it.

2) After I won that argument, then he started pressuring me to go to LAW SCHOOL. Oh, and he'd pay half my tuition if I did. (How I was supposed to pay the other half, plus my mortgage and living expenses, without a job was something that didn't seem to occur to him.) Now, I had several friends who were lawyers, and they all had the same reaction when I mentioned this -- laughter, followed by an apology. The apology wasn't necessary, because they were having the same reaction I was: that it would be hard to find anyone in our social circles less suited to be a lawyer than me! But my father kept talking about how of course I could do it because I was so SMART; once again, the concepts of interest and aptitude were just not on the table. That argument didn't end until I moved to Texas.

All of which is to say, I understand and deeply sympathize. Is there any chance that you could get your mother into family counseling with you? Sometimes that can break a deadlock like this one.

Side rant: THIS is why we need single-payer health insurance, or at least a public option. If you didn't have to worry about paying for meds, you might be able to find a job which would let you move out.

Stefan Jones @336: Thanks for the reassurance!

Lee @337:
All of which is to say, I understand and deeply sympathize. Is there any chance that you could get your mother into family counseling with you? Sometimes that can break a deadlock like this one.

Hmm, maybe? They're correct in that I need to do SOMETHING, though. All of us know that unless I have some kind of routine (school, job placement, volunteer work) I'll stagnate. Also I'm ridiculously bad at going to anyone for help, because it feels like I'm annoying them. The Student Success facilitator for the college's trades programs actually gave an example of a situation similar to mine when she visited one of my classes last semester, and I still didn't feel like it was appropriate to ask her for help. I know how unrealistic it is, but that doesn't really help.

Side rant: THIS is why we need single-payer health insurance, or at least a public option. If you didn't have to worry about paying for meds, you might be able to find a job which would let you move out.

I assume you're talking about American health insurance? I'm in Canada, so I don't actually have it so bad. I think our system pays for appointments and such. I'm not as knowledgeable as I could be on this.

Nancy Lebovitz @330: This doesn't feel bad-- it feels something like a legitimate patch-- but what is it? Is it a problem? Have you heard or experienced anything like it?

I think "normal" for memory function is all over the map. Not sure if this is what you're after, but:

My memory is almost exclusively sensory-based, primarily visual-kinesthetic. If I'm going to remember verbal stuff, it has to have a visual tag, or I can't find it. But, I think this is a function of the fact that I am so visual.

I got into a discussion of this with my friend Howard: he seems to remember stuff primarily as verbal descriptor. (Which led me to the question: how does he reevaluate experience in light of new information, if all's he's got is the "compiled" memory? But that's another topic.)

Contrariwise, I do a fair amount of processing of auditory/verbal information through text: A "written" version of what someone says appears in my mind's eye with a bit of a lag on the auditory memory. If I have trouble understanding someone's accent, the "written" version is what usually saves me.

A neighbor kid reports using "written" parsing primarily, for output as well as input. He overdid some recreational drugs, and broke his text parser. This left him unable to talk for several months. Apparently everybody else in his life found this to be intollerably weird; he found it remarkable that I accepted his report of his internal experience without any argument.

What you describe does sound like a patch, which would be quite a clever way to deal with memory being painful; verbal coding would be a quick and handy way to dissociate from one's experience.

Just curious (nosey): what's your objective with your therapist? Simple clarification? Recovering the sensory-based memories? Something else?

Phenicious @335: Oh, trust me, your story entirely belongs here, and rings an uncomfortably familiar bell for me, to boot.

Your situation sounds pretty much exactly like the last three years of life with my parents. I wound up getting a certificate in electronics primarily because I couldn't think of anything better to do (that would have gotten any support from my mother; I'm now raging against the fact that, had I had title to my own experience back then, I would have gotten an MFA. But, "You'll never make a living at that.") The main difference was that electronics was at least tolerable for me. Did me only minimal good getting a "proper" job, though; given that it wasn't something I had an ambition in, I wound up doing minimum-wage work anyway. But at least I wasn't flipping burgers.

By what logic did you land in the culinary program in the first place? Was that your idea or your mother's?

me @noplace in particular: This is actually somewhat pertinent to my current struggle:

All my life, to the degree that I've had any direction at all, I've been inclined toward becoming some kind of illustrator. The obvious, and most attractive, is to do sf&f art, like book covers and such. (Hence the frustration at not having gotten an MFA when college was an "option" for me.)

For years I've put off or timidly poked at the prospect. Now I finally feel like I've gotten my skill level up to something approaching adequate and—

—There's nothing there. I want to do, like, four paintings to have ready to display at the upcoming MileHiCon in October. I look inside my brain and: whistling void. Nada. I can sort of mentally photoshop imagery together, but none of what I come up with is attractive or interesting enough to bother actually rendering. Nevermind being of a quality that I would feel comfortable shopping around to art directors.

I mean, WTF? I used to have a fairly elaborate, vivid fantasy world of my own, but even that isn't really producing any compelling imagery these days. (Sidebar: so this is what Writer's Block feels like, I guess.)

Am I too old? Have I missed my window? Have I been kidding myself all these years? What the hell do I do now?

@Jacque #339--

Big fat hlepy headed your way--consider yourself warned.

It's natural to choke when you start working toward realizing your dreams. So what? You start anyway.

You've spent a long time honing your skills. The hard work of learning is largely behind you.

Now just remember what you did to motivate yourself while honing your skills. And apply it to the new task.

When I wanted to try something hard, a prof told me I could fall flat on my face. And I told him, whose face was I gonna land on? In other words, my risk to take.

You've done the prep work, chopped the veggies, simmered the sauce, now get cooking.

/Hlepy.

Signed--ex-French lang and lit major who went to med school.

Nancy Lebovitz #330: the act of remembering events in my life always has some pain associated with it.

That part may be the equivalent of scar tissue from burying too many traumas. Withdrawing from your sensory memories may be a "perfectly reasonable response", but it's still a pretty broad withdrawal, which makes me uneasy.

(Bias warning: My own temperament leans toward "use the pain as a signpost" tactics.) It may be that like Pendrift, you'll find this gives you new ways to process and integrate your memories. Even so, I think there will eventually come a time when you need to go back and face the pain.

Phenicious @338

Also I'm ridiculously bad at going to anyone for help, because it feels like I'm annoying them.

Well, you managed to ask here, so that's a start. :-)

I assume you're talking about American health insurance? I'm in Canada, so I don't actually have it so bad. I think our system pays for appointments and such. I'm not as knowledgeable as I could be on this.

Yes, checkup appointments are covered by basic health insurance.

See what Pharmacare covers in your province. Here's a quick summary that I found; each province has very different rules. Not all of them are exclusively for seniors.

So -- after a bit of an embarrassing meltdown after having to encounter the ex and his girlfriend (I let loose with a verbal attack on her, when really what the encounter brought up was all my repressed anger at HIM) I decided I needed some therapy. And the therapist says I need to go back and remember and grieve for the 25+ years I spent with him. Well, I can't find much in those memories of him I want to grieve FOR. And the whole process is making me angry and depressed all over and bringing back all the ways he made me doubt myself and I almost feel like I'm a worse self-pitying, selfish, unbalanced mess than before. Is therapy SUPPOSED to do this? Am I doing it wrong? I want equilibrium, and I want it NOW, dammit!

Hiding a little @343:

Maybe what you're grieving for isn't him, but yourself, those 25+ years. I know that's what I ended up feeling about the 10 years of my life I lost with the ex.

#339 ::: Jacque :

I should think about what I want from therapy-- what I have is a sense that my life would be better if I took the emergency brake off.

That was a good question, though the answer might be "I'll know what I want when there's less noise".

Very tentative, but Frank Frazetta hit a dry spell after breathing too much bad turpentine. He could think of paintings, but it was all mechanical.

He got his emotional connection back after his thyroid(?) levels were raised back to normal.

Short version: you might be up against something emotional, but it might also be physical. It's very hard to tell sometimes.

Jacque @339: Another hope-this-isn't-too-hlepy answer-- do you have a current fandom that has an anonymous kinkmeme w/ art prompts? Because that might be one way to take baby steps back in-- the anonymity and general format make it feel relatively low-stakes while tuning up your general basic skillset.

the invisible one @344: That's a good point. Because I DO grieve for what I lost by staying with him. It would be more productive to look at that, I believe.

Thanks for the comments, everyone. I think my problem here is I don't know how to/want to be an adult? I dunno, that's definitely the message my parents are sending.

Jacque @339: Did me only minimal good getting a "proper" job, though; given that it wasn't something I had an ambition in, I wound up doing minimum-wage work anyway. But at least I wasn't flipping burgers.
Yeah, I've got no ambition for...anything. I don't know how much I'll enjoy something until I'm actually DOING it, which is probably pretty standard, but it gets me into trouble sometimes. I have a limited idea of what something entails, so I think "oh, I can do that, I enjoy X, Y and Z," but what I don't find out until later is that I also have to do A, B and C, all of which I hate. In this case, it's working with really hot ovens, which use gas burners (aka FIRE), under pressure to get multiple things done well at the same time with a hard deadline. I panic, act without thinking and end up doing things like grabbing a hot metal spoon with my bare hand. Didn't actually injure me, but it got me even more stressed and someone else had to take over what I was doing.

By what logic did you land in the culinary program in the first place? Was that your idea or your mother's?

Well, it was sort of my idea? It was the only program thought I could tolerate, by process of elimination. My parents' other idea was a music program, which I knew that I would hate, since I'm awful at music, and practising is like pulling teeth. I know that I agonize over writing things when they actually "matter" (because they have to be phrased PERFECTLY or else people misunderstand me and since it's in writing I can't just say "oh, uh, no, what I meant was X" because my brain tells me that looks "stupid") so I wasn't going to go into any field that was heavy on the written work. Little did I know that there is a lot of writing on menus! Also school always requires writing, so there's no getting out of it.

I applied for the General Arts & Sciences program at the same college, and some other culinary programs that weren't so close to home. My original plan was to just go into any program that would accept my application, but that kind of fell through since they all did. I actually brought up the Gen. Arts & Sci as an option, but my mother said that I'd get no useful skills from that (definitely untrue) and I'd "end up flipping burgers." Ironic, since I'm probably going to be working minimum wage or close to it doing dishes.

the invisible one @342: Well, you managed to ask here, so that's a start. :-)
Thanks. I don't have as much of a problem leaving comments, because it's not like this is someone's office where they have other work to do and I'm just walking in and saying "STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND PAY ATTENTION TO ME" except maybe I am, but online it's easier to assume that I'm not interrupting things. My issues with taking up space, let me show you them.
Also thanks for the link!

Throwmearope @340: Oh no, not hleppy at all. In fact, very comforting and soothing. Thank you.

Hiding a little & the invisible one: Grieving lost time. Yes. This. In bold italics.

Nancy Lebovitz @345: what I have is a sense that my life would be better if I took the emergency brake off.

May I recommend giving yourself the option of keeping the emergency brake on? Or, at least, make the choice of whether or not to use the brake? Not the same thing as your situation, but I have a tendency to freeze in unexpected conflict situations. Examining this, I finally realized it's because I am refraining from going for the Nuclear Option. Which, on balance, I've concluded is a good thing. ;-)

The thing that makes experiencing sensory experience so tricky, of course, is that it's really hard to filter out the bad without filtering out the good, as well.

That was a good question, though the answer might be "I'll know what I want when there's less noise".

So, first therapeutic agenda: "filter out the noise"?

you might be up against something emotional, but it might also be physical. It's very hard to tell sometimes.

Well, it's certainly true that my nutrition has been for crap, lately. I should probably do something about that. :-)

Another thing I've been pondering lately: I recently ran across this (Warning: very triggery) discussion of how triggers work. Her description of figuring out that calculus class was a trigger for her is eerily similar to some of the incapacitating freak-outs I've had on occassion. If my issues around illustration are a trigger, though: how the hell do I unpack it?

Julie L. @346: anonymous kinkmeme w/ art prompts?

Please to unpack? This sounds potentially very interesting, but I'm not parsing the jargon.

Phenicious @348: I think my problem here is I don't know how to/want to be an adult?

Ew. This is sounding increasingly familiar. First: who in their right mind would want to be an adult? I mean, seriously.

Second, that was my mother's trademark: unvarying, unbending imperative to Go Out And Get A Job. Zero help as to how to look for a job, what kind of job to look for. No positive feedback, only constant, unrelenting Ur Doin It Rong. And Ur Lazy And Useless Besides. Boy, talk about an approach that is absolutely designed to completely incapacitate the victim....

I think the thing that was most criminal about this approach is that if it's something that I actually wanted to do, it was, by definition, off the table. Not only is it the classic double-bind, which is, by definition unwinnable; it also had the effect of making my internal compass innaccessible to me. It took me decades to crawl out under that mill stone. I'm still (see above) strugging with parts of it.

It occurs to me that I am reacting so strongly to your description of your situation that I may be responding more to me than to you. I've got a bunch of stuff to say, but before I launch in, is what I'm saying ringing any bells for you?

Well, it was sort of my idea?

Ah. Like my electronics training. Right.

Phenicious, if they're willing to pay for it, I'd try for the general degree. Use the culinary skills to feed yourself; they're not useless, just not useful for what you need them to do. Your parents seem to have a terrible idea of what your career should be in.

Jacques@349 the essay about triggers you linked to reminded me of this article about PTSD.

There's a lot of stuff about the chemical mechanisms of memory, but what really interested me was this section:

"And this returns us to critical incident stress debriefing. When we experience a traumatic event, it gets remembered in two separate ways. The first memory is the event itself, that cinematic scene we can replay at will. The second memory, however, consists entirely of the emotion, the negative feelings triggered by what happened. Every memory is actually kept in many different parts of the brain. Memories of negative emotions, for instance, are stored in the amygdala, an almond-shaped area in the center of the brain. (Patients who have suffered damage to the amygdala are incapable of remembering fear.) By contrast, all the relevant details that comprise the scene are kept in various sensory areas—visual elements in the visual cortex, auditory elements in the auditory cortex, and so on. That filing system means that different aspects can be influenced independently by reconsolidation.

The larger lesson is that because our memories are formed by the act of remembering them, controlling the conditions under which they are recalled can actually change their content. The problem with CISD is that the worst time to recall a traumatic event is when people are flush with terror and grief. They’ll still have all the bodily symptoms of fear—racing pulse, clammy hands, tremors—so the intense emotional memory is reinforced. It’s the opposite of catharsis. But when people wait a few weeks before discussing an event—as Mitchell, the inventor of CISD, did himself—they give their negative feelings a chance to fade. The volume of trauma is dialed down; the body returns to baseline. As a result, the emotion is no longer reconsolidated in such a stressed state. Subjects will still remember the terrible event, but the feelings of pain associated with it will be rewritten in light of what they feel now."

I feel like the important thing is to build up as much safety and positive associations as you can, and eventually the triggers will chill out a bit.

Also, anonymous kink meme explanation here.

Jacque @350: Ew. This is sounding increasingly familiar. First: who in their right mind would want to be an adult? I mean, seriously.
Hehe. Not an adult as in "HAVING FUN IS FOR BABBIES, I WILL ONLY PAY BILLS AND BUY GROCERIES AND FILE TAXES NOW!" but as in "I can be a responsible person when necessary and not rely on my mother to do everything for me!" Because right now I feel like I'm acting like a little kid.

Second, that was my mother's trademark: unvarying, unbending imperative to Go Out And Get A Job. Zero help as to how to look for a job, what kind of job to look for. No positive feedback, only consthant, unrelenting Ur Doin It Rong. And Ur Lazy And Useless Besides.
I dunno, my mom is helping me out; she actually wrote a cover letter for me to apply with. (In retrospect, that sounds a little over-controlling, uh.)
The major hurdle is that I'm incredibly resistant to/scared of change. Like, any major change in my life situation basically has me reacting like some kind of wild animal that's been cornered. The very possibility of dropping off resumes is scary because what if they hire me and i can't just sit around having fun? Nevermind that I've only ever gotten three interviews and one job, ever.

I'm sorry, all I'm doing is contradicting your reassurances. Bluh.

I've got a bunch of stuff to say, but before I launch in, is what I'm saying ringing any bells for you?
Hm, not especially. Launch away!

Diatryma @351: Phenicious, if they're willing to pay for it, I'd try for the general degree. Use the culinary skills to feed yourself; they're not useless, just not useful for what you need them to do. Your parents seem to have a terrible idea of what your career should be in.
Good advice, though I'm kind of burned out on school now (I think I have been for a while). I might investigate the hell out of the general degree program and approach it later on. I also have no idea what career I should be in. I don't even know what my interests are, beyond general crocheting/knitting for fun and various forms of watching-other-people-have-fun (video game playthroughs, blogs etc).

I dunno. It's all a bit silly, and I've been getting into arguments with my parents about it since Friday. Thanks for listening, folks, I'm going to attempt to study for my last two exams.

Phenicious @ #335 etc: I've been dealing with something similar from both sides the last few years, so I have lots of advice for you. It'll sound big and scary, maybe even hlepy, but it's (hopefully) not. Sometimes you have to be strong and kick yourself into doing something frightening and painful in order to heal and grow. You can do this, and nobody can do it for you. It would be very long to post it all at once so let me give you the background and you tell me if I should tell you what I think you should do.

In my teens, my mother deliberately sabotaged me by convincing me I couldn't succeed in the field I wanted. I took something else I enjoyed but with no career applications I actually liked, and started drifting into yucky, low-paid, unrelated jobs after graduation. I couldn't really think about what I had wanted to do, or how my life was turning out, without hurting badly, so I mostly left it alone, getting more burned out and unhappy. I pretty much lost my late teens and twenties. About 10 years later something broke through the mental wall, and I went into a flurry of portfolio-making and applying, got into a relevant program, graduated, and have a job now in my field. It was hard work and scary as hell, and I had to pay every cent myself, but it was also making me happier than I had been in years because I felt like I was making real progress in life and in my goals. Hell, I *had* goals instead of taking what life shoved at me. The change is scary but also rewarding.

My partner loves wandering the internet, is very distractable (though not actually diagnosed with ADHD), has a lot of very-difficult-to-monetize interests, and never knew what to do with his life. He was uncommitted to the options easily available to him, but there were good reasons not to go after the things he wanted more (like low probability of being able to earn a living) or he couldn't see a path from here to there. He did lots of crappy retail jobs. But in the fall he'll be going to college for electrical engineering technology. Meanwhile he's taking math over, and getting 90s, not 50%-60% like he did in highschool. How did this happen? Two big reasons are that (1) I got so sick of watching him care more about pointless distractions than about his LIFE that I stopped taking no/leave-it-alone for an answer, and (2) I spent a bunch of time thinking about what he was good at and how he could turn that into an income. Everybody knew he loved games and movies and making miniatures. Nobody else -- not his family, not his friends, not his guidance counsellor -- bothered thinking about that hard enough to notice that this was because he was very smart, good with his hands, good with mental and physical details, cared about quality work, loved to understand and tweak systems, and loved to make things work. His direct interests didn't offer many ways to make a living, but the reasons that he loves them and is good at them DO. So we went shopping for what was interesting AND marketable AND affordable and I finally got him to *pick* something.

I have a bunch of links for you, so I'm going to pop some in here and some in the next reply if you want it. I know these will be useful to you:
- http://calnewport.com/blog/2011/07/15/how-to-cure-deep-procrastination/ -- I think this is your situation in many ways
- http://calnewport.com/blog/2011/08/11/the-career-craftsman-manifesto/ -- thinking different about how to be successful
- http://calnewport.com/blog/2012/02/18/can-i-be-happy-as-an-investment-banker-the-difference-between-pursuing-a-lifestyle-and-following-your-passion/ -- how to think through what you want from life and if that career will offer it

And I have a suspicion that these might also:
http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2003/07/10/nadd.html
http://www.randsinrepose.com/archives/2007/11/11/the_nerd_handbook.html

I'm curious how many people here have this in common with me:

I'm triggered, strongly, by bureaucracies. Standing in line, filling out forms, getting required paperwork, etc. It makes me literally sick. I get nervous, nauseated, have panic attacks, can't sleep.

Recently (through this community actually) I got an opportunity to do a really neat, once-in-a-lifetime thing, as long as I can get a passport by June. Initially I had said I wouldn't do it. I said it was because of scheduling, but really I was just afraid of having to go get a passport.

Now I've decided to do it, and since I did I went from not needing to take my (as-needed) anxiety medication at all for almost a year, to having to take it every couple days to calm myself down so I can sleep or think about other things. This whole thing terrifies me and I don't know why.

Air travel does it in a big way too. I hate going on vacation because I hate going through security. Can't stand it. I'm willing to drive for days to avoid it. I actually love travel, if I can drive instead of go through security.

So is anyone else like that?

Oh yeah, and, related to that: the fifth Harry Potter book? It was all I could do to get through it. I was anxious and depressed for weeks. I'm okay with a giant snake or an evil wizard as the villain, but a cruel / indifferent bureaucrat? [shudder]

Not as strongly, Russ, but I do have that kind of reaction to some bureaucracies. Not all -- I've done enough flying, for example, that I don't notice (and it wasn't that bad back when I started). But dealing with an unknown group: avoid, avoid, avoid. And if I have to: don't make any waves.

No suggestions for dealing with it, except that I do have a passport, and once you've gotten one renewing it is Really Easy (I renewed using one that was expired for 9 years, which I couldn't have done if I'd waited 10 years; and it was quite simple). I avoided getting a drivers' license for well over a year after I could get one, and only got it because I had an opportunity that I just wouldn't pass up: so using that as a motivator is something I really understand. And I'll tell you that it can work, because it did for me: this is only one example, and not intended to say that it will work for anyone else, or that there's something wrong if it doesn't work for you.

Somewhere I have a passport that I got when I was 7 or 8 years old. I'm going tomorrow to get a birth certificate so I can use that as identification to get a passport. Theoretically I could use the old passport but I don't want to risk being told that it's not enough proof of my identity.

I haven't decided if I'll wait until the trip is too weeks away and make an appointment in person (I have to wait weeks with it hanging over my head, but I don't need to wait for the mail) or do it immediately and wait for them to mail it to me (what if they don't mail it in time? But I get my part taken care of immediately). It's a tradeoff.

Moonlit Night@ 354 Thank you very much. Very much trying not to be hlepy as I watch a family member have A Very Bad Time at post-secondary ed.
I hope that this may help, but after finals. Very helpful stuff.

Ross@358: When faced with that kind of thing my own feeling is that it's best to just get the tough stuff over with ASAP. In this case that'd give you less anticipation time and more recovery time. My experience (admittedly limited) is that they're reasonably good about getting it mailed promptly -- but that's all the more reason to just bite the bullet and do it as soon as you can. Also, I could be wrong but I think you can pay extra for expedited processing.

Ross:

I have a little perspective on bureaucracy, because I'm the opposite way. It's easy for me, and I'm good at it. From where I'm standing, most people struggle. It sounds like your struggles are different in nature than, say, my mother's. But you shouldn't feel a failure because it's hard. That just makes you normal: everybody thinks it's hard.

(On a procedural note, generally the two things they're looking to establish before issuing you a passport are a)identity and b) citizenship. A long-expired passport establishes that Ross is entitled to a passport even if the photo is so old that it doesn't look like you anymore. Technically they're supposed to accept any undamaged passport as full documentation, but I think you're right to worry: I can easily imagine a response like "This shows that Ross is entitled to a passport, but how do I know you're really Ross?" If you have a driver's license or state ID, bring that (and a photocopy of it, as well). If not (because passport bureaucracy is a cakewalk compared to the DMV), you can bring a witness who has known you for at least two years and has their own ID.)

Devin@361:

Expired passports are only useful for renewal if they expired less than five years ago. Seeing as childhood passports are only good for five years to begin with, it seems unlikely that Ross's expired passport will be of much help now.

Re: Passports

IF you are a citizen of the USA, bring the expired passport, your birth or naturalization certificate, any government issued ID (driver's license, Social Security card), or military ID.

As a retired Federal employee, it really hurts to know that there are people who are afraid to come into a Federal office. We don't bite and we want to help you -- your tax dollars paid my salary, and I am grateful for that.

All the Federal employees I knew took the job to serve their fellow citizens, there may be a few bad apples -- but their problems were not in dealing with the public.

Jacque @#349: Kinkmeme is "Here's this thing I would like to see/read, someone draw/write it for me." They're often done anonymously so that if your kink is for genderswapped characters engaging in chocolate-pudding-assisted sex with banthas in tutus, you can still post without worrying about the whole net knowing who you are.

What Lori Coulson said @363 goes for me, too: I am a Federal employee, part of a vast bureaucracy, and I'm happy to help people whenever I can. Not all bureaucrats are alike, in case this can assuage any anxiety. Please ignore this if it's hlepy rather than helpful.

Carrie #364: I didn't know that's what that was called!

Jacque: Not all of it is sex-related; I've seen a huge amount of it in Sherlock fandom where it often takes the shape of "draw Sherlock and Mycroft getting ready for bed when they were little;" "draw John and Sherlock exchanging Christmas presents." There is a fair bit of sexual stuff as well (gay subtext being made into main text).

Phenicious @353: I'm sorry, all I'm doing is contradicting your reassurances.

Not a problem. 'S why I asked. :-)

What I wished I could have had the freedom to do right after high school would have been to get "test" jobs at a bunch of different places, with the idea of researching the "I enjoy X, Y and Z, but I hate A, B and C" thing. It would have been really nice to take a couple of years and just find out what's out there, and get a sense of what I was attracted to. Given that you're burnt out on school, and your mum sounds like she is trying to be helpful, would she be amenable to you taking some time to try something like this?

Instead, I was supposed to Pick A Career Tomorrow and Do That Until I Die. Also, the idea of asking people questions was completely outside of my conceptual space.

Two books I would recommend: Work With Passion by Nancy Anderson, and I Could Do Anything by Barbara Sher. The first one has lots of how to tricks for researching different lines of work.

It's all a bit silly, and I've been getting into arguments with my parents about it since Friday.

I don't know. Given the price of education these days, I don't think it's silly at all to not want to waste thousands of dollars and years of your life training for something that you hate.

Merricat @352: My understanding of the physiology of PSTD (keeping in mind that IANAP). Triggers often don't even reference declarative memory; they just provoke the physical response to a perceived threat. In this case, Mitchell's CISD is of limited use.

the important thing is to build up as much safety and positive associations as you can, and eventually the triggers will chill out a bit

This is certainly true.

Ross @355: I'm triggered, strongly, by bureaucracies.

Don't know how much help this would be for issues like flying, but would having a friend along to pass the time at the passport office be of any help?

& 356: The Monster of the Modern Age: The Indifferent Bureaucrat! I hope you'll pardon me if I find this hilariously apt. :-)

Melissa Singer @366: "draw John and Sherlock exchanging Christmas presents."

Ah, okay. Hm. I think I've seen something like that, only more general, over on Deviantart. Will have to investigate further. Thanks!

Seriously, Ross (and sorry for misspelling your name before!) -- if you have the old passport, it can make things much, much easier. There are all sorts of weird things about birth certificates (I ran into a problem with not having the actual certificate, but a Certificate of Birth Registration, which is different). There are simple rules about how long a passport has been expired as to whether it's still good for getting a new one (I think it's 10 years, but I could be wrong -- it may be the) -- and my experience was that I got my passport very quickly using the old one. If it's easy to find it -- use it, if it's within their published parameters.

Aha! Here is the official state department page on renewing by mail, with the information: the previous passport has to have been issued when you were age 16 or older, and issued within the last 15 years. There's a couple of other limitations on pure renewal by mail, and info on talking to them in person.

Doing stuff like this by mail is less likely to trigger my fears. I don't know if it's the same for you.

And googling for "passport renewal" will get you all sorts of services that will charge you to get between you and the bureaucracy. That may be worth it for you.

Phenicious:

You've mentioned crocheting a couple of times; have you tried working at a yarn or craft store?

Does working in a retail evironment hold any appeal for you?

It's over! I applied for a passport, and it should be here in 2-3 weeks. Which is plenty of time. So I get to freak out about that for a couple weeks but there's nothing I can actually do to affect it.

My intention was to go in this morning and get a birth certificate, because I don't have mine (and there's no way I'm risking my life to go to my parents to ask for it) and then continue putting together passport things. I got the certificate pretty easily (got two copies, and barely even had to stand in line) and then I thought, why not get it all over with?

So I went back, filled out a passport application, and did that too. The only thing I was missing was a photo, which they took for me. All very simple. MUCH less stressful than my drivers license, or going through airport security.

Ginger, Lori Coulson: it's not that I have anything against bureaucracies or that I think you're out to get me, it's just that the whole thing terrifies me on a gut level. I only realized that that was it when I read that link upthread about how triggers work: I know nothing bad is going to happen, but it doesn't stop the dread. Probably something horrible happened to me that I can't even remember, that I now associate with waiting in line at places with my parents as a kid.

Tom Whitmore @ 369: I dug around for it a bit last night, but it's from when I was about 7 years old, and has been expired for over fifteen years. But I was able to get everything taken care of by getting a birth certificate first. I think what made it less painful was that there weren't many lines: apparently demand at the HHS office is much lower than at the DPS, and the whole experience was less dreadful.

Ross: Really glad to hear you got past it on this one! I hope the trip is truly marvelous for you. Good work!

@368 -- the point is that CISD doesn't work at all, because you're reconsolidating the memory when you're still having physical stress reactions. But, if you talk about a painful memory some time after the event, when you are safe and relaxed and not freaking out physiologically, it becomes less painful. I feel like a lot of "abstract" triggers work the same -- if you can dis-associate them with the bad events, and re-associate them with more pleasant things, they stop being triggers. (Abstract trigger here being something of a generally neutral value that one experienced in a bad way/time -- a certain piece of music, or calculus, or food.)

The problem is, it's a long and arduous and imperfect process.

Ross: Yay! Congrats on gettin' 'er done!

Merricat: Yes, you're exactly right in that you don't try to treat the trigger when the victim is triggering. As to dealing with triggers in isloation of a specific reference memory, that's where phobia treatments come in, and you're right, you deal with that by "stacking" positive resource states. Doesn't have to be long and arduous: given a competent practictioner, a phobia can be cured in 10-15 minutes. (I'm confident saying this because I have, personally, run a cure on a spider phobia and seen the results with my own eyes.) Ironically, anxiety reactions that aren't full-blown phobias take longer to work on. Again, with a competent practitioner, half an hour is a reasonable estimate. The tricky part, of course, is finding the competent practitioner.

In my case, the problem state is that the problem is so vague and undefined, so it's hard to find a resource state that covers the situation. If it's fear I'm dealing with (and I'm not sure that it is) what I'm afraid of is completly unclear.

Jacque: How can someone cure a phobia in 15 minutes?

I've been reading the part of the thread about careers. :(

I'm sort of lucky in that I've always known what I wanted to do (well, for a few years I wanted to be an astronaut, but after age seven or so I've known what I wanted to do) and it's something that's fun and pays the bills. Didn't stop the horrible parents from trying to get me to do other things ("you should learn [my pointless blue-collar career] so you always have something to fall back on when you screw up at your job") or telling me I wouldn't be able to do it ("you'll get burned out by the time you're twenty", "computers are a fad; by the time you graduate they'll program themselves and you'll never get a job"), but I was interested enough in what I do that I kept learning it even though I was totally discouraged that I'd ever get to do it for real.

And then I got lucky and got a couple good opportunities and now I have a career. And apparently I'm good at it even. Not really sure how or why.

I wasn't born into the kind of socioeconomic environment where I really had a reasonable shot at doing this for a living, and I didn't put forth the amount of work that I should have had to to break out of that environment. And I know it; I'm lucky, a fluke, maybe not an impostor (I am actually good at it) but I really don't belong here. So that's the kind of thing I've been thinking about reading these posts. If I hadn't randomly become interested in this, I'd have been in the same position; not knowing what I want to do, not being good at anything, and having no support at all for building a life.

Ross @376: Jacque: How can someone cure a phobia in 15 minutes?

Here's a good synopsis of the process. This is essentially the recipe I used to cure a friend's spider phobia.

I'm lucky, a fluke

It's been pointed out that luck is an important piece of the puzzle for anyone who's successful in what they do. Of course, Luck = Preparation + Opportunity.

But I submit that the other thing you had going for you is faith in your own direction in the face of active opposition, which is by no means trivial. I hope you give yourself credit for that!

Oh boy oh boy oh boy...

Interview #1 successfully completed. The property manager is a very nice gal. She asked what I was doing now and when I said, "Looking for work--in fact, I have an interview tomorrow as well," she didn't seem too concerned. She also has no concerns about my not having experience as an apartment manager even though it's an 82-unit complex--"We can train for procedures and policies and such, but we can't train character and attitude" or words to that effect--understands about the cats and seemed pleased when I volunteered to pay for any additional cleaning that might be needed when it was time for me to move on (assuming she chooses me in the first place).

She did describe it as part-time, and I let her know that based on my interview a couple of months ago, I likely couldn't afford to be a part-time manager...but here's the difference:

I would get my one-bedroom apartment rent-free.

I would get my utilities paid.

And I would get a monthly stipend of $1200.

She said she would appreciate a call from me after tomorrow's interview, because she understands if I need to take a full-time job. But I told her what she described would be just wonderful. Anyway, she said she has other candidates to interview but that she should be making her decision Friday or Monday.

I feel REALLY good about the interview. But I will write a lovely thank-you note and see what happens. :)

Interview #2 tomorrow at 11:30 AM. Keeping my fingers crossed that it also goes well. And as I walked from my car to the Women's Room, I heard my phone ring, so I answered. It was a recruiter calling about a fund accountant job in Irvine. He said I might be a little more senior than the client is strictly interested in, but he (the recruiter) liked the look of my resume and wanted permission to put my resume in front of one of the agency's directors (to see if he would recommend passing it along to the client, I guess), so I said of course. And it would be direct hire, not temp or temp to perm.

Then the recruiter asked about my salary expectations, and I said $15-$30K, that I knew it was a wide spread but I have been out of the industry several years, so I felt it was reasonable. The recruiter replied that the range on this particular job is $55-60K.

I said that would be lovely. :)

So we'll see. At any rate, I've had an encouraging week or two!

Sounds wonderful, Syd! Fingers crossed for you.

That's great news, Syd.

Is there any chance of getting a health-insurance-included job that could coexist with the apartment management deal?

Syd --Fantastic news! Keeping my fingers crossed that things keep moving in the right direction for you.

Syd, appendages crossed here for you as well.

Best wishes, Syd!

Syd, sounds like a good start -continuing to send positive thoughts your way. Good luck for today's interview!

Syd, that's great news!

#349 ::: Jacque :

Very good point about the emergency brake, and I'll add the option of having it partially on.

From where I sit now, living with the emergency brake off is probably more like "it sounds cool, but I have no idea what it would be like, and it could be more dangerous than I can handle".

In re unpacking a possible trigger: I suggest gentle observation of what's going on in your mind. Psychological work is doing original research, and sometimes you don't start out knowing the shape of the thing you're looking for.

I think I've mentioned this before, but I find it's useful to ask myself what I'm actually doing.

Sometimes this turns up useful information, such as that I'm distracted because I'm comparing myself to other people.

*****

In re bureaucracies: I've found that the Philadelphia DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) has been quite easy to deal with for routine stuff, even though people talk as though DMVs are highly problematic.

I think the phobia (and I share it) is about the fear that things could very difficult if something goes wrong, and not having information about what's actually needed if the bureaucracy is difficult.

Without going into details, I know someone who had a hell of a time getting a case of identity theft of a dead relative sorted out. While I don't get the impression that any of the bureaucrats were malevolent, it took a while to find one who knew or cared about what needed to be done to resolve the situation.

A metaphor check: is the emergency brake on when you're parked and not when you're driving, or are you leaving it on while you drive? Because I've been reading it as emergency-brake-off is definitely better-- more control over how you drive, for one thing, plus less energy wasted-- and when appropriate, you engage it. Or you get to a place you don't need it; I have no idea where Milady Buick's emergency brake is because I live in Iowa.

Ross, good for you for following through.

Syd, great to hear. Hope today's interview goes well too.

Re phobias of bureaucracy: I suspect some combination of (a) has power over whether you get some thing you need or not, (b) may or may not be helpful (but has a reputation for not), or may flip-flop without warning between helpful and not (c) [I think this is the triggering aspect for many] may change the rules arbitrarily, or seem to, so you think you are prepared but find that not only are you in the wrong, but you're being told that things were always this way and you should have known, plus (d) often requiring waiting in groups of impatient people, never a recipe for bringing out the best in folks.

Re career choices. You may find the information at Career Vision helpful. Full disclosure: I used to work for them, though I haven't for years. Some of the website will encourage you to come to them for career counseling; they do an excellent job, but this is obviously not feasible for everyone. In any case the various downloadable items from the "career resources" tab might be useful. In particular, their Career Matrix might be helpful. (Although, for some reason, steps 3 and 4 in the pdf seem to come before steps 1 and 2). Their perspective is that for long-term career success and satisfaction, you need to be a good match to the job in terms of aptitudes, interests, personality, and values. Success involves making a contribution to the organization: what do they need done that you can do well? Satisfaction involves what you get from it - could be as straightforward as a paycheck when you need one, or as big as feeling like you're contributing to a cause that means a lot to you, or in between - like building skills you will take to your next job.

#386 ::: Diatryma :

You're right about real world emergency brakes. For people, it can be harder to tell what's the emergency brake and what's sensible use of controls.

Expecting myself to give up excessive caution all at once isn't a good idea.

Syd, I wish you good luck on all fronts!

OtterB, YES YES YES.

On a political science theory level, I know that bureaucracy helps the rule of law scale up. If you don't have bureaucracy, you have fiefdoms and families deciding who gets the permits, and that sucks. But when bureaucracy goes wrong, you have the insular secretive hidden deciders you'd get with a mafia of humans, plus a robotic denial (to the victim) that there is any channel for empathy or personal appeal.

I've been on the other side of some bureaucracies -- not government stuff, but, for example, running a travel subsidy request process for volunteers. That experience makes me trust larger and older bureaucracies somewhat more than smaller ones, because they often have dealt with edge cases before and so I think it's less likely that I'll slip through the cracks. But that is just one of the factors in what makes me feel calm or panicky about an application process. Bad reputation, lack of confirmation reassurances, profit motive (e.g., health insurance providers), and new jargon make me more anxious and don't help my procrastination.

Sumana Harihareswara @390 -- have you read TNH's article about being a bureaucrat in Making Book? It's called "Black Top Hat and Moustache", and I recommend it (and the rest of the book) highly. It's published by NESFA Press, fairly widely available for a book published in 1994 (buy direct from NESFA to support small presses, or from an independent bookstore to keep serendipity alive). This has been an unpaid commercial announcement.

Syd: We does teh happee danse!! (The Universe says: "Ur Doin It Rite.")

Nancy Lebovitz @385: Psychological work is doing original research, and sometimes you don't start out knowing the shape of the thing you're looking for.

This is an exceedingly good point, and one that I tend to forget. The problem is further complicated by the possibility that I may be looking for the "thing" in entirely the wrong place.

I'm distracted because I'm comparing myself to other people.

This is certainly a factor (and, not incidentally, one of the known failure modes for artists). I look out at the field and I see (A) there's a lot of it (e.g., I've got a lot of competition), and (B) they seem to have already done all the cool stuff, and better than I could.

I think part of the issue is that I'm still trying to find my "voice" as an artist, and this insight is going to have to come, almost by definition, from an unexpected direction. But, in turn, this is not unprecedented in my experience. I mean, who in their right mind would have anticipated an hallucination catcher?

WRT bureaucracies, I've found that the main skill needed to deal successfully with them is cordial, dispassionate, grinding patience. Keep your ultimate goal foremost in mind, be pleasant, and just keep going until you get what you want.

Of course, knowing what the specific bureacracy you're dealing with is for is also important. (I got a call yesterday from a lady who—well, let's just say she was paying too much attention to her objective and not enough to the path she had chosen to pursue it, with the net result that she and I were both very frustrated by the end of the conversation. "Yes, we're not being helpful. Because we don't do what you need." ::sigh::)

Phenicious @ #335 etc: Here is the second half. You can read it or not as you please, but I have to get this off my desktop so that I stop rewriting it endlessly. Your situation is too compelling for my own good.

You seem to be in roadblock mode. That's what I call the state where the primary reaction to an idea is to point out why it couldn't work. I get into it sometimes myself when I feel alone/misunderstood and under threat. Roadblock mode is a holding pattern, not a fix. It lets you avoid effort and change by insisting they will be futile or make things worse. The truth is that you CAN make things get better, and you CAN take on a major challenge or fear and win, if you really want the prize.

It is absolutely fine if cooking is not for you. A trade you hate or are bad at might pay the bills but won’t contribute beyond that to a good or happy life. General Arts and Sciences may teach you useful skills, but I would question its marketability. My honours bachelor in Humanities (liberal arts) taught me lots of useful mental skills but was ignored by hiring managers. I suspect a GAS diploma would have the same problem but worse. Since I used up my family-paid education on the wrong thing, and now have spent $8000 in savings and $30000 in loans to get the right one, I can’t recommend you using up your funding on not knowing what to do.

I think your mother is at the end of her rope, and with good reason, but it's NOT all your fault. It hurts to stand by and watch someone you love waste their life, and she’s had to do it for her sister and husband already, and compensate for his/their shortcomings. You’re the last and the lowest status, so her patience is running low, and you're the safest one to lash out at. Maybe you’re taking her flak for them as well as yourself? I bet that she loves you all and wants you to succeed, but is also incredibly tired, frustrated, and out of ideas.

I too am cursed with feeling that I don’t deserve help. But it is a skill we both need to practice, so ask someone who will be kind but firm to push you into doing what you need to do. My suggestions for "need to do" are working with the student success specialist, more help with the ADHD, and counselling (because I'm picking up an I-am-worthless vibe).

Now for the big one: it is YOUR life. Your choices. Your responsibility. Your joy. It is time for you to figure out what you are good at, what you like to do, and how to get paid reliably for them. Consult people not related to you, and who are intelligent and realistic. Take some aptitude tests and have some friends or teachers analyze you much like I did for my partner. Work out some options with them.

Use some different ways to gather information: talk to graduates, and not just the ones manning the booth on information day. Look up the field's labour market information, such as occupational profiles and employment statistics. Check the KPI surveys and placement rates for schools. Do informational interviews to find out from people in the field what the job and current conditions are really like. Read or watch Sean Aiken's One-Week Job Project (book and http://oneweekjob.com/). Try out a bunch of different jobs — volunteer if you can’t get paid, or ask for lunch money — before plunking down more tuition. There is *something* out there where you will shine.

There is not always a direct path to getting paid for your passion, even when you know what that is. The time-honoured solution is to have a day job and do the stuff you love most after hours. But try also reading this (http://calnewport.com/blog/2010/01/23/beyond-passion-the-science-of-loving-what-you-do/) for a different approach to succeeding on your own terms. I used Cal’s ideas to help my partner: most of the obvious things he would love to do, only the lucky few can make a living at. So instead he's going to take what makes him passionate and skilled in those things and apply that to more employable fields.

Finally, the freezing up about what you want to do with your life suggests to me that you’re holding in an unbearable amount of pain and fear on this subject. Two causes of that for me were that I knew what I wanted but truly believed I couldn't have it, and that I was taught from the cradle that I was useless. Both hurt like crazy. Neither was true. I don't know what your causes would be, but I can tell you this: leaving the wound alone means no change. And no change means staying forever in your miserable limbo where you keep disappointing yourself and your family, and can never be adult, independent, and fulfilled, because you will not have meaningful and respected work, only distracting toys. So I want you to ask yourself, is this really a good bargain? Won't staying in limbo endlessly hurt at least as much as going *through* the pain of figuring out who you are, what you can do, and what you want, and coming out the other side into something new and better?

Yes, I'm telling you to grow up, but not because it's what I need from you, or to grow into a shape that's convenient to me, the way your parents may be -- I'm telling you to do it in a way that's fulfilling for YOU because it's what YOU need from yourself. You can do it. And plenty of people will be glad to help when you need it.

I had a comment written out in Notepad, but my laptop died. Then I re-wrote it...and forgot to post it before shutting down last night. Way to go, me! Let's actually do this...

Moonlit Night @354: Sometimes you have to be strong and kick yourself into doing something frightening and painful in order to heal and grow. You can do this, and nobody can do it for you.
I know. I'm trying to not be such a pessimist, but my brain is all "UGH this means you're going to FAIL rrr" so if I sound like an ungrateful jerk that's probably why. Sorry. I'm reading the links you posted, and they're definitely going to be helpful once I can get my head around them.

...And while I was taking hours to write this, you posted the second half! Thank you for that. I'm going to read it and write a separate reply, before this comment gets delayed any more.

Jacque @367: Given that you're burnt out on school, and your mum sounds like she is trying to be helpful, would she be amenable to you taking some time to try something like this?
I think she just wants me to get any job, at this point, so she probably would be.

Two books I would recommend: Work With Passion by Nancy Anderson, and I Could Do Anything by Barbara Sher. The first one has lots of how to tricks for researching different lines of work.
Adding those to my reading list, thanks!

Lori Coulson: I'm pretty sure my local yarn store has enough staff already (it's pretty small), but I could always apply to the craft store. My mother is suggesting I do so, actually. Retail doesn't appeal to me, but I'd be willing to do it. I have a couple places I can ask about summer jobs after I work up the nerve to approach them.

OtterB, #387: may change the rules arbitrarily, or seem to, so you think you are prepared but find that not only are you in the wrong, but you're being told that things were always this way and you should have known

AKA "we've always been at war with Eastasia"... or just plain gaslighting. If you have been subjected to that sort of behavior at home, it can be extremely triggery to encounter it in the wild.

One thing that sometimes happens around here is that I'll see Thing X and recognize that it's a reference to Thing Y, but not that Thing Y itself is a reference to Thing Z that I haven't encountered. So then my partner and I will be talking about Thing X and I'll mention that it's a reference to Thing Y, and he'll say, "No, it's not" -- when his actual intent is to say, "Actually, Thing X and Thing Y are both references to Thing Z." But it comes out sounding like, "No, you didn't see that Thing Y that you know you saw" and I tend to get quite sharp about it. Fortunately, we have a generally healthy relationship where this isn't part of a nasty repeating pattern, so we can work it out.

(handle slightly disguised to lessen googlability)

I ended a relationship this week after several fruitless attempts to get someone to take my concerns seriously about certain aspects I found problematic.

The clincher? When he said "If you think something's a problem or something I say is hurtful, the burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate why I should give a fuck, because normal people wouldn't react the way you're reacting. Maybe you should think about working on your issues."

What. The. Fuck. Srsly. His word was always good enough for me. If my word isn't good enough for him, I'll go take my word somewhere else, thankyouverymuch.

If his need for "proof" is more important than the fact he's damaging someone he claims to care about, if every discussion turns into a trial where I have to prove my good faith over and over again, the relationship's an error. I expect the same courtesy I extend, and I am not going to waste my time with someone who is always ready to think the worst of me rather than believe that I'm doing my best.

Drifting Pen, sorry to hear it, but it sounds like out was the right decision. There's certainly a place for a partner to say "you should think about working on your issues," but "why should I give a fuck?" is just ... no. Sympathies.

Phenicious @394: "after I work up the nerve to approach them" If that were me, it would be my low self-esteem talking. The solution I sometimes try (and which sometimes works) it to mentally pretend I'm approaching on behalf of a friend who is worthy of this assistance and this opportunity (since I'm still working on persuading my subconscious that -I- am worthy of such things).

Drifting Pen @396: Sympathies, but good riddance. Seriously. You deserve better than that.

I've been lucky enough to find someone who loves me despite my flaws and insecurities, has been willing to give me the support I've needed due to those insecurities AND who doesn't feel threatened by the fact that I'm now tackling the problems (which basically boil down to low self esteem), but rather is happy to support me emotionally while I do the digging, to congratulate me on progress, and to share the triumphs with me.

You deserve someone like that as well.

OtterB, dcb, thank you.

It was definitely the right decision, of that I have no doubt. And I consider myself very lucky to have reached a point (thanks in large part to these threads and this community) where I am confident enough and comfortable enough in my skin to recognize when something is damaging to me, say no, not ok, and cut my losses early.

Drifting Pen @396: Go, you! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, indeed. A demand like that is a red flag for somebody operating in bad faith.

"why should I give a fuck?"

Just contemplating that. Wow.

Drifting Pen, #396: Here's a newsflash for your ex: "normal people" (which is to say, those with healthy self-respect) will react to what he said exactly the way you did. Maybe he needs to spend some time working on his issues, because he sounds like the kind of guy who can't handle being in a relationship of equals.

IOW, sorry it happened to you, but good fucking riddance. You don't need that in your life.

"The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate why I should give a fuck"

Um, maybe because we're in a relationship, and caring about how I feel and not hurting me is part of what that means.

Wow. Just wow. Congratulations on getting out of that.

Drifting Pen,

A few things come to mind - he seems to be confusing hurting you with meaning to hurt you. If I step on my partner when dancing, it's gonna hurt. The fact that I didn't mean to matters, but if I'm so clumsy I don't even know it...well, I need to be told. And I shouldn't be demanding proof.

Second, if that's the best he can do in issue resolution, he's got a lot of work to do. Yikes.

mistergeeky @403: Reminds me of a guy I was in a very brief (I mean, like, two days) relationship with. He was clumsy and careless, and every time he would touch me (even just to hug me) he would manage to cause me pain. I'd say "ouch, that hurts," and he'd keep doing it.

I finally confronted him. "Why do you continue hurting me when I've said that's painful?"

"Oh. I thought you were kidding."

!?!?    Call me a Delicate Flower, but where I come from, if someone indicates I'm hurting them, I assume they're telling the truth!

This was the same guy I saw punch himself in the face as hard as he could when he discovered he needed a loan to finish the convention. Never did find out what his history was, but I can make some guesses....

Drifting Pen, yeah, that's kind of a relationship-ending statement he made there.

I was once in a relationship where there was a physical altercation that crossed the line between play and real conflict; I missed the transition, and the result was that I was injured (still hurts in wet weather).

Now, my position was that he, being the multiply-black-belted martial artist in the relationship, ought to have been careful not to injure me, and certainly ought to have found some way to make it clear when he thought a line was being crossed. (I thought we were still play-rassling when he decided to tear the cartilage connecting my sternum to some ribs in order to escape.)

His position was that in the presence of a martial artist I should have just been careful and that anything that happened to me was my own fault.

It took me some time to decide that he was just wrong and maybe a little crazy. But well before that, I realized that it was unsafe for two people with that particular difference of opinion (and disparity in physical skills) to be together (as in "in the same room," not just "in a relationship"). I ended the relationship without speaking to him again.

Neutrino @405: His position was that in the presence of a martial artist I should have just been careful and that anything that happened to me was my own fault.

Um...no. Reall. Just: no. See also: Wrong.

"Really," that is.

I figured that out eventually, Jacque. It took me an appallingly long time to realize it (and that no, I wasn't the crazy one). Fortunately my instincts got me out of the relationship without waiting for my brain to catch up!

Moonlit Night @393:
That is a whole bunch of truth right there. I can't really think of a decent reply. I'm having trouble getting past the knee-jerk "OH NO someone is telling me some very useful things! Time to sulk and resent the fact that I didn't come up with this all myself!" thing my brain does.
I've come to the conclusion that I'm too frustrated to be properly civil right now. I'm gonna go eat dinner and probably crochet to calm down some.

Phenicious @409: Take your time -- I threw a lot of big and difficult stuff at you very quickly. I figured that one, you needed to hear it, and two, that it might be much less painful and hence more fruitful to hear it from someone who's been there and done that, and who has zero stake in the outcome. You seem to be dwelling on the school/jobs/future topic, but also looking for distraction from it. I'm finally learning that when I feel that way about something, it's a signal from my inner self that I need to sit down and think about this thing, hard, but in a safe place and/or with safe people, because it is IMPORTANT. The mental ache/itch doesn't go away until I do.

I don't have much belief in gods and similar, but the last few years have honestly felt like someone Up There has been extending an uncomfortable but worthwhile bargain. The deal seems to be that I will get a life I'd really like to have (at minimum happier, more fulfilled, more loved, mentally healthier), but that to get there, I have to confront my fears, burn off my impurities. So far walking the path of burning coals has been worth it. It is much, much better than going on hurting in my own limbo, where I was doing and allowing so many things that hurt me without even knowing how much they hurt, because I couldn't have kept going if I knew.

"Normal" people don't use "normal" as a club. FWIW.

I'm re-reading Zenna Henderson's stories of The People, and what's pretty striking is the persistent worry that various characters have that if they're different, they're insane. As in, they can provably do things that humans can't, so that's insane. Not "different" but "I can do these things that everybody says are impossible, so that's insane."

These stories were written in the 50s and early 60s. It's actually pretty distressing to think that most people were so worried about conforming strongly that they assigned extreme mental distress to mere difference.

Drifting Pen, the jaw drops at teh cluelessness of That One--I'm sorry for your pain, but it does sound like ending it is the right thing to have done.

Phenicious, no helpful comments to offer from this quarter, but heard and witnessed.

Update: nothing concrete anywhere as yet, but hopefulness still abounds.

I never got the promised email from the recruiter who called me on Monday afternoon, but I'm not worried--I just took it as a sign that yes, there are people who actually look at posted resumes, and if one found mind, another will as well.

Tuesday's interview went very well, I think. The compliance manager likes my accounting background: since the project is writing up procedures for every function at the retail level (finance company), then doing the same thing for at least the HR and accounting portions of the corporate office, she wants someone who's at home with the terminology. And the fact I've worked on a project much like this already didn't hurt either. When I confessed I couldn't recall if the contract portion of the job would be part-time hours or full-time, she said she could be flexible as long as the work gets done. (I asked in case I get the offer on the apartment manager position--and the two are fairly close geographically, so that would make it even nicer.)

I was the first candidate the compliance manager interviewed, and she has to do at least 5, so she thought I would hear back from her late next week or early the week after, although it might be sooner if the other interviews can be scheduled quickly enough. Still, I think I did well, and I'm happy about it.

I was even happier when I got a call later on Tuesday afternoon from the admin at the property management company...seemed the manager I'd interviewed with wanted to know if I'd like to go visit the apartment complex and meet the leasing agent.

I said yes. :) That took place yesterday, and I think it went well, too--and I like the place a lot. The manager described it as "long and narrow", which it is, but not in the bowling-alley sense: you walk through the main entrance to a courtyard with a pool, then curve around into the next courtyard, then curve again into the courtyard with the spa. There are on-site barbecue grills, 4 laundry rooms, gated parking... Much to like, considering I haven't lived in an apartment since I was in 3rd or 4th grade. Check it out at www.capecodlabri.com. (Decided not to link directly there--not sure I'd like it if someone at the management company found their way here and concluded from my posts that I'm maybe not such a good candidate after all, if I'm spilling my guts on the Internet.)

As of now, nothing from the management company, but I figure I'm a strong contender or why have me go out to view the complex and meet the leasing agent? So I'll keep my fingers crossed that I get good news on Monday.

And if they choose someone else, well, I'll be disappointed, but I made it to Round 2--that's got to count for something!

Again, sincere and respectful greetings to Roquat Rufus, Rex Gnomi, and his multitalented minions. My latest post has been captured for reasons I know not. I did include the url for the property related to a job interview, but not as a link; I admit as always the possibility of inadvertent use of a Word of Power, or a skipped space causing a spamlike formation.

How do you and the gnomes feel about vanilla rooibos and a plate of pirouette cookies?

Neutrino @405: His position was that in the presence of a martial artist I should have just been careful and that anything that happened to me was my own fault.

Actually, the rule in my dojang was that any injury that occurred while sparring or grappling with someone of a different rank was (if there was any fault) the higher ranking person's fault. No excuses. If you know more, it's your responsibility to know better.

Drifting Pen, good riddance to bad rubbish.

Syd, HOORAY! Fingers continuing to be crossed!

Syd, that does sound like good news! Keeping my fingers crossed for positive outcomes.

Lila 414: Actually, the rule in my dojang was that any injury that occurred while sparring or grappling with someone of a different rank was (if there was any fault) the higher ranking person's fault.

Yeah, that's the rule I'd always understood as well. Kind of a shock to hear "tough shit, you messed with the wrong guy" from a) a very advanced martial artist who was b) supposed to be my boyfriend.

Lila @414: Actually, the rule in my dojang was that any injury that occurred while sparring or grappling with someone of a different rank was (if there was any fault) the higher ranking person's fault. No excuses. If you know more, it's your responsibility to know better.

That squares with the traditions I've encountered, as well. My experience has consistently been that interacting with higher-ranked students is generally safer than same or lesser-experienced classmates. Exceptions were explicitly cause for concern.

Neutrino @416: Kind of a shock to hear "tough shit, you messed with the wrong guy" from a) a very advanced martial artist who was b) supposed to be my boyfriend.

A flag of glowing neon crimson, n'est-ce pas? I suspect that, on balance, you got off lightly (for which you can credit your good sense). I would have predicted that, were the relationship allowed to continue, "accidental" injury would have been the least of your problems.

Hi again, I'm just kinda coming here because my brother and I are fighting and he came pretty close to hitting me.

I just can't get him to understand that playing loud videos in close proximity to other people is rude, especially when they're trying to sleep. I know he uses headphones for his mp3 player, he just won't use them for his computer. I kept cursing at him, and that's probably how it escalated that far.

This is how it usually goes: telling him I'm going to bed soon, so it's time to start winding down the video-watching; reminding him as I walk past his room to mine; getting frustrated if this doesn't work; launching into a lecture about how early I/my parents have to be up in the morning; eventually calling in my parents to enforce the rules.

Probably useful information: we're both on the autism spectrum, though I was only recently diagnosed (with Aspergers). He was diagnosed at a much younger age (~4 or 5?) and lately he's been treated as pretty much a nuisance by my father. Like he's an annoying college roommate who my dad doesn't want to live with, but can tolerate by ignoring him most of the time. A lot of the rest of the time is lecturing him, criticizing, and generally "nagging" him about stuff. So my requests for a quiet sleeping environment are interpreted as yet more ordering him around, and I have no power over him beyond calling my dad over from his room.

Advice would be appreciated, but I'm not in any danger right now, so it's not urgent.

Neutrino @ 416:

Just for comparison, I once sparred with a black belt in my dojang; he barely made accidental contact and kept apologizing for it (I was a much lower-ranked belt). There are people who clearly do not "get" the black belt concept of control. It sounds like the boyfriend was more into the concept of a black belt as a "dangerous person".

@418 I would probably bring up the issue at some point when you're not about to go to sleep, so it's a less tense situation to begin with.

And I'd start by asking him if there's any reason he doesn't use headphones for videos. Depending on how his autie stuff manifests, it may have simply not occurred to him that that's an option.

Beyond that, I'd say, "It's really important to me that I get enough sleep. Can we make a bargain about this? Is there something really important to you that I can help you with?"

"Rude" may not register as a bad thing for him. Making a concrete connection between "I do nice things for other people" and "people do nice things for me" may be more useful.

Phenicious @418, As always, disregard if inapplicable or unhelpful. I have a teenage daughter who is apparently not on the spectrum (so say experts who have assessed her) but shares some of the issues. She does best with consistent rules about things. "Turn down the volume when I say it's time to go to bed" feels like random ordering around to her; "Turn down the volume at 9 PM" quickly becomes a habit. So maybe, as Merricat suggests @420, try to set up a mutually-agreeable schedule when there's no immediate conflict.

I've heard from other parents that things like time management apps work well because an alarm or reminder from the computer/iPod/whatever doesn't carry the emotional weight of a command from a person.

Also, I hadn't picked up from the previous discussion that you were recently diagnosed on the Aspie end of the spectrum. My guess is that this plays into your career issues. It seems possible that your resistance to trying things out is sensibly based on past bad experiences. Thinking about it that way suggests to me that going for baby steps - some little thing where you're almost guaranteed to be successful - could help you build some momentum for bigger steps. Actually, come to think of it, that applies whether you're on the spectrum or not.

Phenicious @418 Tangentially, depending on your family power structure, have you talked to you dad about his interactions with your brother? (Is your brother younger or older than you are?) Gently presented as "concerned about wellbeing of dad and brother both," he might be interested to know how he's coming off. Alternatively, quiz your mom about their dynamic?

Following on OtterB's suggestions of "baby steps," one hack that Barbara Sher suggests for situations like yours is to come up with a goal that has similar characteristics, and a pleasant outcome, but to which you are more emotionally indifferent.

For example, she talks about one guy who wanted to become a (forget what; let's say "novelist"), but was heavily invested in the idea and too freaked out by the concept of success, so he was in perpetual limbo about it. Just for the hallibut, and to practice parallel skills, he had a go at submitting some art to galleries. Almost by "accident," (meaning this wasn't a goal he'd particularly been thinking about), he became a successful gallery artist. Having done that, the idea of writing and submitting novels was much less overwhelming.

As I posted last, I had to be out of my apartment by March 31st, only had nowhere to go. I did manage to get extended to April 15th, and I did manage to find a place. However.

Two days before the scheduled move, my long, long, long-time-coming breakdown finally happened. I ended up collapsed on the floor crying so hard I could not breathe, after not sleeping from Tuesday morning to Thursday morning. I finally managed to call the emergency line, who set me up with a counsellor. After speaking with her, I was able to call my cousin and ask for help. She worked like a dog, a dog, to get me ready to move.

I met with a counsellor in person, who referred me to an MD, who diagnosed me with major depression, put me on meds and referred me to a CBT center. The MD said she would not put me on leave, because she thought the schedule of work was good for me. She said she would revisit the leave idea during our follow-up in 3 weeks.

Yesterday, my company announced they are no longer covering short term leave for people in my job group.

Today, my company announced they are closing the center where I work, and I will be unemployed as of July.

I had mentioned to my counsellor that I hate it here, that I want a different job, and he said, "You're in no shape to go job hunting and go to interviews right now. Leave it for later in your recovery".

I have no cushion. I've been living on the edge for years. I'm screwed every way I go. I can't deal with this. I would just like nothing to happen any more.

Fooey

Try to breathe. I know things look very dark now, but there are people who care about you, like your cousin, and, well, us. I've got my fingers crossed for you finding another, better, job quickly.

Fooey, what Cally said. Sending you good mojo re: health and the job situation.

Update re: my interviews, I heard from the property manager yesterday. She decided to hire someone with slightly more maintenance experience than I have, which I can understand--but she also said the cats would have been an issue, and if she'd said that earlier, I would simply have written this one off as "no chance" despite the go-meet-the-leasing-agent thing. On the other hand, she said she'd keep me on file for pet-friendly buildings, so I guess I must have been suitable in other ways. Disappointed, but I'm still calling it a net win for getting to Stage 2.

And I called the compliance manager I interviewed with for the tech writing job to let her know that the part-time job I'd mentioned being in consideration for? The one that caused me to ask if the contract portion of the job was part-time hours or full-time? Well, it went to another candidate, so if you decide I'm right for this position, I can start any time you'd like, work full days, etc.

She didn't sound all that enthusiastic, but I'm hoping it's only that I caught her in the middle of something (I was actually hoping to get her voicemail, but oh well). Anyway, should know on this one no later than the beginning of next week...and in the meantime, I'll get back on the Resume Pony tomorrow morning.

Fooey, #423: Egad, that's a lot of bad shit landing on you all at once! That would overwhelm just about anybody, depression issues or not.

Advice (stuff that works for me, disregard if it wouldn't work for you): Don't think about the whole giant block of bad shit all at once. Focus down to a few details that you can deal with one step at a time.

You have, right now, a job and a place to live. You also have notice that the job will be ending soon, so IMO that needs to be your most immediate focus -- finding a replacement job so that you can keep paying the rent. If you find one and they want you to start immediately, (again IMO) you don't owe your current employer anything at this point unless you get a fairly significant severance bonus for staying thru the bitter end.

If you have any spoons left after job-hunting, I'd advise working on getting at least a couple of rooms in your new place into livable condition, because living in a sea of boxes and clutter is itself spoon-draining. The kitchen and whichever room you spend most of your at-home time in will give you the most return for effort spent.

Also, keep a list of the things you've done, so that when the Goddamn Tapes start telling you how lazy and worthless you are, you can point to the list and tell them to STFU.

Last but not least, things should get better when the anti-depression meds kick in. They won't change your situation, but they will give you a higher level of cope to deal with it.

GoodThoughts being sent in your direction.

Fooey, that is a lot of shit coming down. You have a lot of people who can help you with it, it sounds like, and you'll be in my thoughts if that's all right.

(To the moderators re: my 425, no gnoming has occurred--I forgot to clean up my screen name after the previous event.)

a tidbit for those of you who need it: the chillout song, written by ze frank for a woman who requested a song to help her calm down when her anxiety got to be too much.

ze frank used to do the show back when i was in college, and is now doing a show instead. he is amazing. his stuff goes from silly and interesting to profound and heartbreakingly beautiful, with a lot of little tunes and spoken word poetry.

Syd: Sympathies on the "no" re.the apartment manager job. Here's still hoping for the other one.

Fooey: Yeah, pity the world can't go on hold until you're ready to deal with in. {{{{hug}}}} No practical advice to give - Lee's suggestions look useful. Re. job hunting, you have a couple of months; don't panic yet! Maybe think of something small and practical, like bringing the factual parts of your resume up to date, that you CAN do?

Fooey, very sorry to hear it. I have no concrete suggestions to offer, just joining the two-part chorus of "that sucks" and "hang in there, you can get through this, it will get better."

Syd, sorry to hear the apartment job didn't work out. Hoping for good things from the other one.

Thanks for... just being here, I guess. I'm trying to do individual things like a)eat dinner b)take shower, etc. Small focus.

Re: boxes. My cousin, the same one who got me ready to move, has also been coming over to unpack things. I have a proper bed again, and she has pretty much put all the kitchen stuff away. I have no idea where anything is, but it's away. Somewhere. And you're right, I don't close my eyes in the kitchen any more.

I opened up my CV, looked at it, and immediately closed it. I have no spoons.

Fooey @432: Big hugs. BTDT, though not both job-hunting and moving at the same time. Sounds like the Universe decided you Need A Change (har).

Two suggestions: if you can stand it, eat a hearty serving (6-8oz, 200ish grams) of dark leafy greens every day. This may help with the depression. (It does for me.) Guard your sleep with a truncheon. If you're having trouble sleeping, my emergency sleeping-potion is 3x Advil + 1 or 2 Benedryl. Make damn sure you have 10 hours to devote to sleep before you try this mixture, though. Sleep deprivation makes everything MUCH worse.

Syd: You're making progress!! Keep on keepin' on!

#433 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 02, 2012, 11:06 AM:
Jacque@433

Two suggestions: if you can stand it, eat a hearty serving (6-8oz, 200ish grams) of dark leafy greens every day. This may help with the depression.

I'm hardly able to open cans of soup right now. I had to bully myself into doing so last night. My cousin would make it for me, but I hate to ask her for more.

Guard your sleep with a truncheon. If you're having trouble sleeping, my emergency sleeping-potion is 3x Advil + 1 or 2 Benedryl. Make damn sure you have 10 hours to devote to sleep before you try this mixture, though. Sleep deprivation makes everything MUCH worse.

Thank you; I'm on meds from the MD, so mixing is probably out.

Syd: You're making progress!! Keep on keepin' on!

It is oddly slightly comforting to see Syd's stuff. She's in a way worse spot than I, and managing to keep body, soul, and cats together.

I have 2 cats, one of whom is expensive, health-wise. I will die if they are taken away from me. They save me.

That's not an immediate prospect - it's not even a far prospect, but just the thought is terrifying.

Re: sleep and depression

It's not just sleep dep that's problematic, it's irregular sleep generally. Obviously, people being people, exactly how your depression and your sleep schedule interact will vary. For instance, I do fine on short sleep,* but oversleeping is a danger sign. I can't really say if it's causative or symptomatic, but it's something I keep an eye on.

And building on what Lee said about lists, I find that taking care of something is tremendously helpful for my mental state. Even if it's something as entirely bogus as paying my power bill, having DONE SOMETHING and being able to forget about it helps a lot. If I'm having a bad month, I'll try to keep an eye on my stock of simple to-do tasks, so I have something ready when I need it.

*Well, for sufficiently grumpy values of "fine." But I don't get depressed, generally.

Fooey @ 433:

It is oddly slightly comforting to see Syd's stuff. She's in a way worse spot than I, and managing to keep body, soul, and cats together.

And one of the main ways I'm managing is, quite frankly, due to These People Right Here, and to my friends in meatspace. Having an outlet, a place to ask for advice or help or just to say what's on your mind without needing to filter it--invaluable for peace of mind, at the very least.

Thanks, all.

Learning to ask for help is hard. Getting past those Goddamned Tapes that tell one that one does not deserve help, so why ask? Harder. And you know what? Accepting help has been a real killer for me. But the concepts are/were so tightly entangled that taking an action in any direction (muting the tape, asking for help) helped improve all aspects.

You are doing what you can, as you can. You are asking for help when you need it. And you are also accepting that help.

Good for you. :)

Take as much care of yourself as you can, on the rationale that failing to do so makes everything that much more difficult. And if, for a little while, that care is making a cup of tea and sitting on the bed with your cats and just breathing for a while, then do it. Proper nutrition is important, keeping hydrated is important (dehydration will throw a wrench into the works in numerous ways), and I know those can both take spoons you don't have right now.

But you will. Sending the good mojo, and kitty kisses from mine to yours.

re: Learning to ask for help

A dear friend of mine committed suicide a few days ago. She had a wide circle of friends and many of us thought we knew her very well indeed. She must have been hiding herself behind an iron-clad facade. She presented as one of the most calm, stable, and giving people I've ever known.

If only she'd been willing to let someone peek behind the wall, to admit to her pain, to ask for help, perhaps this wouldn't have happened.

GlendaP @437:

Gracious. What a painful thing for everyone concerned.

My sincere condolences.

Sorry to hear, GlendaP...

Fooey @432:

I opened up my CV, looked at it, and immediately closed it. I have no spoons

...left after taking that first step, but at least I took it.

FTFY ;-)

Fooey @432,
Another person sending sympathetic thoughts your way - I've been unable to open and edit certain social profile sites for weeks. Like what Abi said - picking it up and putting it down again is an act, is work, in itself.

CVs, Linckd Inn profiles, they're all heavy objects. There's some sort of by-our-bootstraps aspect of them - I'm supposed to build and present an ideal model of myself, at a time when I can't imagine myself as similar to that model?

GlendaP: Mu sympathies.

Fooey: Also consider having some sit-down time in the sun. Nothing more than just sitting outside in the sunshine for ten minutes to get your Vitamin D levels maxed. It may give you a few spoons.

Adverse Childhood Experiences increase health risks.

You'll have to scroll down a little to get to that bit; the article is about a "disciplinary school" which is getting astounding results by treating troubled kids like troubled kids instead of dangerous animals, and providing them with the tools they need to handle abusive or uncaring home environments.

I decided to post this link here instead of in the Open Thread because I think some of the information about ACEs will be useful to many people here. Especially for people who are in counseling or thinking about getting counseling, because this is information the counselor may not have.

Lee: I'm still working through the off-shoot links of that page; really interesting stuff. It'll be interesting to track how these ideas percolate through the culture-at-large.

It would be interesting to compile, here, a catalog of resilience-building techniques and practices. I'm not going to start, because I am short of spoons at the moment.

Lee @443:

I took the survey linked to the article, and scored a 5. Now I'm wondering if THIS is the source of my fibromyalgia...

More about complex trauma, including the fight to get it into the DSM.

B. Durbin @442:

Some years ago, I made myself a rule: get outside during the day every day unless I am seriously ill or the weather outside is bad at the blizzard or hurricane level. Not merely cold or rainy or even sleeting.

Because if I don't get the daylight, I start feeling worse, and when I feel worse, I am less inclined to go outside. But having already made the decision makes it easier for me. Is there a blizzard? Is there a hurricane? Factual questions (and I can ask the weather service).

Sunshine is good, but even the light levels on a cloudy day are different from most indoor lighting, and certainly from the lighting in my apartment.

Again, this is a Your Mileage May Vary thing, and I'm posting as much for the idea of having dealt with the decision once, as the specifics of daylight being good for my moods.

Nancy Lebovitz @446: "They purposely hurt themselves"

Something just clicked in my head. I wonder if this might account for some of the self-discipline issues I've had the last coupla years....

Jacque @444:

It would be interesting to compile, here, a catalog of resilience-building techniques and practices. I'm not going to start, because I am short of spoons at the moment.

I'm short of spoons at the moment as well, but am getting more of them than I used to, and a Resilience Training program I'm in seems to be helping. (It probably helps that I have memories of what having resilience was like. I had a lot of it until the terrible patch, middle of this past decade. I am determined to have some again. Hence the Resilience Training program, and other stuff.)

I also crave sunlight and the outdoors. Birdsong. Flowers. Trees. Water. Wind. Fortunately, I live in a neighborhood where I can walk in safety -- me AND my 60 lb. dog -- and when I don't feel like looking at houses, there are parks I can drive to.

With regard to Vitamin D: there's tons of research out there which suggests that Americans in general have woefully low levels of Vitamin D, and that Vitamin D makes a HUGE difference to health, in all kinds of ways. Google is your friend.

Also, the ability to synthesize Vitamin D from sunlight varies tremendously from individual to individual. Older (esp. post-menopausal) women tend to lose the ability to do this, no matter how much sun they get. In such cases, a simply blood test and non-prescription D3 supplements can make a real difference to energy levels, joint pain, bone health, etc. IANAD.

I'd just like to say that I'm sorry I haven't commented more on this thread. In particular, I'm sorry that I haven't made more encouraging remarks to Syd, especially when she needed them most.

Syd, I think this is because your situation aligns so well with my own fears that I get paralyzed when I try to write anything. OTOH the fact that things appear to be looking up for you gives me hope that my less-severe problems will soon be resolved.

I'm still out of work. I'm not getting interviews. I'm doing everything I and my friends can think of (mod my spoon supply), and I have valuable skills. I've been out of work for a while and I'm over 50, and I wasn't jobhunting for a while there because I had cancer (now all fixed, leaving me with some minor residual problems but unlikely to have a recurrence).

I think most longtime MLers now know who I am.

Some days lately I just keep thinking "no one's ever going to hire me" over and over. I have to wrestle myself out of that even if it means I have to not think about my job situation at all for a while, because it leads to despair, which leads to wistful thoughts about the George Washington Bridge.

I know my situation doesn't suck as badly as some other people's. I'm in awe of some of the people on this thread, including Syd, because I think their situation would break me right away. Maybe I'm wrong; after all, I've survived everything that's happened to me so far, and perhaps I'm stronger than I think I am.

My best wishes, Neutrino.

Neutrino, send me your CV -- I know you have one of my email addresses. I'll see if the FG can point it towards someone, or conversely, if she can send some of those recruiting emails she still gets, towards you.

[[hugs]] to anyone who needs it. I don't post much on this topic, but I do read.

Neutrino, I refer you to the previous thread in this series and the consensus that your pain is pain, independent of whatever anyone else has experienced.

Job hunting is always hard.

My husband had good luck in support, if not in referrals, from a 40 Plus club and others have mentioned them as well.

Wishing you well.

Ginger: sent. Thanks!

Thanks OtterB.

Today, I am going to apply for jobs. Some of the deadlines may have passed between me queueing them up and me applying, but I am going to apply for jobs. Some of them may suck a lot, but I am going to apply for jobs. Because I am just that awesome.