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January 22, 2018

Open thread 220
Posted by Abi Sutherland at 01:58 PM * 1493 comments

Overheard: “You think he’s cool because he’s a dwarf? Or because you read about him online?”

Discuss.

Comments on Open thread 220:
#1 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 22, 2018, 02:01 PM:

Forgive my continued absence. Still keeping my head above water, but not by much.

#2 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: January 22, 2018, 02:53 PM:

You've been regularly in my thoughts, abi. Sending you good wishes.

#3 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: January 22, 2018, 03:10 PM:

Backtrack to Open Thread 219.

abi: Would that we could help with the bilge pumps.

As to why he's cool: can't it be both?

#4 ::: thomas ::: (view all by) ::: January 22, 2018, 05:01 PM:

Wittgenstein on causes of and reasons for beliefs: that he is a dwarf is a reason for thinking he's cool (um, maybe?); that you read about him online is a cause of the belief.

#5 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: January 22, 2018, 06:08 PM:

Thomas @4

As a Dwarven patriot, there's no maybe about it. Dwarves are cool, should be pretty obvious.

#6 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 22, 2018, 07:12 PM:

I've generally found that folks who've had to live as "different" are at least more interesting than most. Not always nicer, but certainly more interesting. :-/

#7 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 12:42 AM:

Hi Abi, Odin asked the dwarves to make this internet for you.

#8 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 08:17 AM:

<sending virtual flotation devices to Abi> I recommend the one with the duck head. Because who doesn't like floaties with duck heads...?

(Hope things improve.)

#9 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 10:20 AM:

HLN: area woman is completing fourth of six cycles in chemotherapy round, with fifth starting next week. (They do not get easier over time.)

#10 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 10:49 AM:

P J Evans (9): No, they don't get easier. On the contrary, they often get harder. Best of luck with the last two cycles.

#11 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 11:37 AM:

10
I get about two days after a session before I hit "hell week", when I'm feeling miserable and food is difficult. (The last "hell week" was 10 days long.)
Someday they may be able to predict which side-effects you'll get but that time isn't now.

#12 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 11:54 AM:

P J Evans (11): That sounds all too distressingly familiar. I hope you're managing to stave off dehydration; that was my biggest problem during the hell weeks.

My sympathies.

#13 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 12:48 PM:

From the TV adaptation of The Magicians, Season 3, Episode 1, "The Tales of the Seven Keys", a two-minute video of a conversation where nerds, attempting to evade surveillance, speak in code -- entirely in references to shared cultural artifacts. With subtitles.

#14 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 01:41 PM:

12
What I have to watch out for, coming off "hell week", is overeating (because of body demanding calories).

#15 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 01:46 PM:

@PJ Evans: I hope hell week passes swiftly and hope you have a nice feast planned post-chemo.

@Abi: We appreciate all you do. May the flood recede.

#16 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 02:32 PM:

And the latest version of Firefox breaks even more add-ons and plugins, with NO replacements apparently available. (Or, as I said in feedback, if I wanted to use Chrome, I'd install Chrome.)
(latest version breaks Leetkey, among others.)

#17 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 03:10 PM:

New Linux Kernel out too, and other stuff. At least it installed.

Then there are fake graphics cards coming out of China, while the blockchain gang are buying up all the graphics cards they can.

Back in December, at the peak, Bitcoin miners were gloating about how much money they had earned, but you don't earn anything until you sell the product, and the value has plummeted since then. And Kodak, a vestige of what used to be, made big money when they announced their own blockchain thing.

Yesterday I heard the term "Dunning-Krugerands".

And on Sunday somebody said there was something wrong with my graphics card. It was running too cold.

Soothly we live in mighty years!

#18 ::: B. Holder ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 03:46 PM:

Greetings to you all. I am posting at the request of my brother, B. Holder, to inform you that he passed away 6 January, 2018. He asked me to let folks know so that you all would not be wondering and missing him. He is the older brother of a very large family and we miss him dearly! Thank you, Kerstin

#19 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 03:54 PM:

P J Evans @16 -- even worse, the new version of Firefox has gotten rid of the "refresh" button in the upper left corner. It's not in the nav bar, where it used to be before they moved it out. And that really bugs me, because I go away sometimes for a few hours and really want to refresh (e.g.) ML, or some other ever-changing site.

#20 ::: cleek ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 04:18 PM:

#19. it's on my FF (v58.0).

if you don't see it, you should be able to put it back by clicking the menu button (top-right three horizontal lines), then choose Customize. that will open a window with all the different buttons you can put on your toolbar. you should see the refresh circular-arrow button in there.

or, you can just press F5 (if you're on windows) to refresh.

#21 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 04:19 PM:

Kerstin, I'm very sorry to hear this. My condolences to you and to your family. Thank you very much for letting us know.

#22 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 04:33 PM:

Abi: Sending virtual flotation devices your way. Wondering about how I keep my own head above the waves.

#23 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 04:33 PM:

P J Evans: May the force be with you.

#24 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 04:35 PM:

Kerstin: My condolences also.

#25 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 04:38 PM:

Today is the birthday of both of St Lucia's Nobelists -- Derek Walcott and Sir Arthur Lewis. Intriguing coincidence.

#26 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 05:01 PM:

cleek@20: have tried that, will see if it works (and I'm not on Windows, but a Mac).

#27 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 05:13 PM:

P J Evans @ #16:

Cryptext got a 2.0 update this week, and while it still doesn't do everything that Leetkey did, the update added enough functionality that I consider it a reasonable replacement for Leetkey (at least for the things I used Leetkey for, which was mainly reading and writing rot13).

#28 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 05:30 PM:

The New York Times has reported that Ursula K. Le Guin has died.

#29 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 06:00 PM:

I'm very sad to hear about Ursula. She had a good innings, and really changed the world for the better through her writings, both fiction and non-fiction -- and she was a wonderful person.

#30 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 07:05 PM:

28
Oh damn.

Also sorry to hear about B Holder.

#31 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 23, 2018, 08:06 PM:

@Kerstin: Thank you for letting us know. Condolences, and please take care.

* * *
I selfishly wish Le Guin had hung on long enough to write what would have been an amazing obituary for the Trump administration.

#32 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 12:41 AM:

It seems like this article about a Tunis bookbinder, brief as it is, might be of interest to several here.

#33 ::: Tony Zbaraschuk ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 09:04 AM:

Farewell, Ursula. Long may your books and memory be for a blessing.

#34 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 10:54 AM:

I spent a sleepless hour last night wondering how I could have better handled an minor electrical fire in a restaurant I managed. In a dream I'd just woken up from.

At least anxiety dreams about missing a final exam means you just have to dream about taking a class again.

#35 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 01:11 PM:

The Dispossessed, The Left Hand of Darkness, The Word for World is Forest, the Orsinian books, the Earthsea books. All of them were important to how I grew to understand the world, and what the world meant to me.

It is one thing to study, as I did, modern European history and the period between the great revolutions, as I did for A-Levels, and another to read Malafrena and dive deep into what that was like through her marvellous imagination bringing it all into view.

Shevek was my first real model of what an engaged scholar should be. I have always wanted to live up to him. Never succeeded.

And The Left Hand of Darkness was more than a little bit of light to me at some crucial times.

Some people leave holes in the world when they depart. She is one of them.

#36 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 08:26 PM:

Dave Bell @ 219::1218: I'd never heard of degree-days used for agriculture -- but I didn't grow up in an agricultural area. (The ~100-hectare dairy pasture across from my first home was almost certainly a tax dodge; other neighbors housed riding horses.) AFAIK, the most practical use around Boston is letting home-heating-oil suppliers know when their customers are likely to need refills.

Mary Aileen @ 219::1221: my partner runs something that appears as "NOAA Weather Unofficial" on the apps list on her Android, and finds it acceptable. This is a free version; she thinks there's a more featureful pay version.

Sumana Harihareswara @ 13: cute. I'm glad for the subtitles; I got ~1 of the references (reasonable for someone my age?)

Dave Bell @ 17: "Dunning-Krugerands"?!? <snortle>

#37 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 08:35 PM:

And some randomly interesting links:
* The Hawaii mis-alert took most of an hour to quash because the governor forgot his Twitter password. Seems like the alert facility wasn't the only thing needing redundancy....
* A huge murmuration of starlings is too mobile for a hungry falcon.

#38 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 10:15 PM:

CHip (36): Thanks for the pointer. I wonder how that differs from the National Weather Service* app, which is free.

*The National Weather Service is part of the NOAA.

#39 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: January 24, 2018, 11:18 PM:

AKIML: I'm writing an essay to go in the back of a book that I and some other people are editing, and I'm on the hunt for white animals in folklore, particularly British Isles folklore. White harts and white hares I know of, and there are the chalk carvings*, but a larger list would be edifying. I'm headed to a library next week to seek the aid of a Librarian, but it seemed like the sort of thing people here would be likely to be interested in and possibly know about.

*Which have entered into folklore, regardless of when they were originally made!

#40 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:20 AM:

Em @39 -- most unicorns are white, in British Isles folklore. White mares also show up a lot. I'd be surprised if there weren't stories of white goats, as well.

#41 ::: Tony Zbaraschuk ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 09:57 AM:

Swans are generally white.

There are, IIRC, white buffalo in Sioux (and maybe other Plains tribes') folklore

#42 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 10:07 AM:

@39--

I don't know how deep its folkloric roots are, but in E Nesbit's brilliant children's book, "The House of Arden", there is a white mole (always referred to as a "mouldiwarp" in the book) that has strong magical powers.

In particular, all white things obey the Mouldiwarp--daisies, swans, pigeon-feathers, etc.

It's a time-travel fantasy, written in 1908, and one of the crowning achievements of children's literature, in my opinion:
http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/nesbit/arden/arden.html#II

#43 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 12:02 PM:

oldster @42 -- when I was young, I preferred the sequel to The House of Arden, Wet Magic. It had more scope. I'll certainly agree that Nesbit was one of the great children's book writers, and should be better known these days.

#44 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 12:08 PM:

Tony Zbaraschuck #41:

Not in Oz.

#45 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 12:25 PM:

Question for the technically/electrically knowledgeable:

My TV and stereo are plugged into a surge protector which is plugged into an outlet controlled by a wall switch, which I have been leaving on all the time. I would like to plug a lamp into that outlet and control that with the switch. Would constantly losing and regaining power cause problems for the TV/stereo? On the rare occasions when I want to watch/listen with the light off, I could turn the lamp off directly.

The only other option (besides status quo) would be to rearrange the entire living room (ugh). And the next easiest place to fit the TV stand is next to an ungrounded (two-prong) outlet, which means no surge protector.

#46 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 12:43 PM:

Mary Aileen @ #45

It might depend on how your TV and stereo work. Some TVs are constantly using a small amount of power while off to maintain settings, etc. My guess is that it's possible that there might be some harm from power going off and on, but not likely.

#47 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:01 PM:

Steve C. (46): Thanks. Is there an easy way to tell if my TV is one of those? I must have the manual around here somewhere....

#48 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:23 PM:

Tom Whitmore@43--

There's a more direct sequel of "The House of Arden"--featuring the same characters--called "Harding's Luck."

Not as full of rollicking good fun as "House of Arden," but deeper in a way. And Mary Norton stole a trick from it for her own time-travel ending of "Bed-knob and Broomstick."

Which raises the question: which *is* the first time-travel book to have a character from the present choose, in a clear-eyed way, to renounce their present-day life and remain in the past?

#49 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:23 PM:

Mary Aileen, I'd check to see how long it takes to come on with it plugged in, then unplug it for a bit, plug it back in and see how it takes then to get fully on. Most TVs do use a bit of power in standby mode.

#50 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:45 PM:

#39 Em

I'm not sure if the animals have to be entirely white, but Welsh folklore includes supernatural white dogs with red ears.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C5%B5n_Annwn

#51 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:55 PM:

Mary Aileen @ 45:

It shouldn't do any great harm to your TV and stereo to turn the power off and on, unless you're flipping the switch quickly multiple times in a minute. The only downsides I can think of are that your TV or stereo might forget some settings (e.g. volume, presets, channel tuning, time) if the power is turned off for long enough, or that you might at some point want to have the lamp off when the TV or stereo is on.

Just to check, is the entire outlet controlled by the wall switch, or only half of it? It's possible, and sometimes common, for one of the sockets to be wired to a wall switch, while the other is constantly powered. It's also possible (sometimes easily, sometimes not, depending on what the house wiring at the outlet is like) to convert the outlet over to the behavior of one socket switched, one always on.

As far as I'm aware, pretty much all TVs and stereos made since some time in the '90s go into a low-power standby mode rather than a 100% off mode. The power consumption is minuscule. Standby is the reason you can use the remote to turn the TV on again, rather than having to push a button on the TV itself.

#52 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 01:58 PM:

oldster @48 -- my memory is not what it once was, and you're absolutely right about Harding's Luck. Though Wet Magic includes both the mouldiwarp and the mouldiestwarp, IIRC.

#53 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:03 PM:

KeithS (51): The entire outlet is controlled by the wall switch. And this is a rental apartment, so tinkering with the wiring is out.

The TV manual is silent on the question of whether losing power messes with the presets, although one of the troubleshooting tips is to unplug it, wait thirty seconds, and plug it back in. I'm not worried about it losing channel presets (since I only use it for watching DVDs), and I always turn it on from the power button anyway, but I'd hate to have to continually reset the language and such.

I'll have to test it.

#54 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:04 PM:

And thank you! to both Steve C. and KeithS.

#55 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:17 PM:

Okay, so cutting power briefly doesn't mess up the settings on either the TV or the stereo, so this might work.

Friends on FB suggested getting a remote control for the lamp instead. If I can figure out how to rig that by the front door, that might be a better option. For one thing, it would save me figuring out what to do about the answering machine, which is also plugged into that outlet currently. There are three possible solutions for that one; none are ideal.

#56 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:23 PM:

Tom W@ 52--
I had forgotten Mouldiwarp in "Wet Magic"--must re-read!!

#57 ::: SamChevre ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:30 PM:

Best wishes to abi in keeping her head above water--from someone who's irritatedly glad that life keeps pushing him, because else he'd stop completely.

I have an observation and a guess at the cause, but am hoping someone can check it: I get no results on Google when I do a site-specific search on Making Light. This makes locating past threads much less easy: is it possible that the robots.txt was unintentionally set to non-indexed?

#58 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:40 PM:

SamChevre @ 57:

I'm not sure what's wrong on your end. I just tried a couple of site-specific searches and they worked just fine.

Examples:

black hole brownies of death site:nielsenhayden.com
cuisine of nouvelle zion site:nielsenhayden.com

(Why, yes, it's lunchtime, how can you tell?)

#59 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 02:53 PM:

So, having problems with one of my favorite sites, NotAlwaysRight. AKICIML....

1. It started throwing up intrusive popups to the effect of "You've got ads blocked, this is post #1 you have viewed without ads". No explicit threat of a limit, but I'd say that's implied. They offered to let me buy a "Pass" from Google to view it ad-free.
2. After trying for a while to block the popups with NoScript and/or AdBlockPlus (I've gotta admit uOrigin would probably have been better at this), I gave up on that, and decided to actually buy the pass.
3. Having done so (with some difficulty, as the signup page itself involved some scripts that NoScript didn't like), I found that indeed the popups are gone. Unfortunately, so is the comment section -- not even the comment-count widget is visible! This remains so even with both NS and ABP disabled. It's possibly relevant that NAR uses Disqus (which is whitelisted) for comments -- the other social-media icons do show.

Of course, the comments for NAR are most of the fun. As far as I'm concerned, this is a major-league fuckup, and has ensured that it will be a cold day in hell before I pay another dollar to Google's "revenue enforcement" systems.

Looking at my Google account, it offers no way to delete the pass. Or stop automatic payments, or even remove my card from their files. The only thing I can apparently do is delete my Google account entirely.

I have left a message on the AdBlockPlus site.

NAR itself claims to offer a feedback page, but even with ABP and NS turned off, the CAPTCHA is a non-functional text link, so it won't let me file my complaint.

Does anyone know any way to recover from this pass? I'm using Firefox on Ubuntu.

#60 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 03:02 PM:

Poking around on Twitter, I found an interesting thread: Anatomy of Nazi Twitter Mobs. From Noah Smith via Hope Jahren.

TL;DR: It starts with a retweet by a "screamer", followed by direct attacks by many "soldiers".

The "screamer" typically has few Nazi memes or quotes (so they may not be obvious in your mentions list) and (these days) 2000-3000 followers. They are usually a "chronic offender", doing this regularly for long periods of time. The "solders" are throwaway accounts with 200 or fewer followers, but more likely to have Nazi memes etc in their profile. They generally won't "mention" the screamer, making it harder to track down the key account.

#61 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 03:10 PM:

And catching up, sympathies to Abi, P J Evans, and anyone I've missed.

Sad about Le Guin, but she had a long, full, and fruitful life, in which she brought much wisdom into the world.

#62 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 03:10 PM:

I am feeling very put-out. I've reached that age where I'm seeing a lot of retirements around me. This is particularly annoying in one's medical providers. When I had my semi-annual with my optometrist (who's a couple of years older than me) last fall, I scowled at her suspiciously and said, "You're not planning on retiring anytime soon, right? Right??"

"I'm too young and beautiful to retire!" she declared, with some indignation.

Well, checking my voicemail this morning, turns out I have to reschedule my spring semi-annual because—because my optometrist is retiring.

::SIGH::

#63 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 03:48 PM:

Apropos the cuisine of nouvelle zion link in KeithS's comment @58, the temple at which I did the actual dunking part of my conversion to Judaism provides gift bags for new converts. It included two(!) cookbooks, one compiled by the women of that (Reform) temple and one compiled by the women of a nearby Conservative congregation at various points past. I was flipping through the former and recognized with some amusement and delight the classic American recombinant cuisine with which I am only passingly acquainted despite my Midwest upbringing (being as how the parent who cooked dinner was an East-coast food snob).

#64 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 04:02 PM:

Mary Aileen, there are certainly remote control switch units that have a socket outlet, go between the outlet and the plug you want to control. The other option is a remote control lightbulb in the lamp.

Google throws plenty of examples of remote-control bulbs at me, all at the 240v European standards, all LED based, and all using your mobile phone as the controller. The options are numerous. You could end up with dimmable lighting for the room that has a particular setup for TV watching, and a different one for reading.

I am not sure I would bother with that myself.

#65 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 04:31 PM:

Dave Bell (64): Thanks. I've pretty well decided on this one; I like the fact that it mimics a traditional light switch and can be mounted directly on the wall.

#66 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 06:39 PM:

62
At least my dentist sent a letter when he decided to retire, some months before he actually did.
(I don't know when my primary-care guy will decide to retire.)

#67 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 06:48 PM:

Em@39 And of course there are white sheep, but they're the boring ones. And swans, usually white, but usually special for being swans rather than white ones.

On Firefox extensions: I hadn't realized Leetkey was back; mine had broken several releases ago, and I've mostly been using Vivaldi and Chrome.

#68 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: January 25, 2018, 07:12 PM:

Jacque #62: The other half of that situation is that you then wind up with someone who is supposed to be a professional all-wise authority figure, but who actually looks like a young pipsqueak.

At least the president is older than me again; the only aspect where Trump is an improvement over Obama.

#69 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 11:01 AM:

Mary Eileen @65

That's a neat design. I don't see anything similar in the UK. The battery it uses seemed odd at first glance: I can get them in the UK, but I don't recall seeing them in shops.

There are various options for the bit that switches the power to the device, but I've not found a controller in that style. It looks a bit limited in how it handles multiple systems, and might not be that good an idea in an apartment block.


#70 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 12:27 PM:

Thank you all very much for the white animals! There are a few I hadn't thought of (and at least one I wouldn't have thought to look for), so I've got some good avenues of investigation. Merci!

#71 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 12:36 PM:

Em @39: Ceridwen is apparently symbolized by a white sow, though it’s not clear to me how much historical provenance there is for it. There’s probably a whole slew of white critters mentioned in Robert Graves _The White Goddess_.

#72 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 12:48 PM:

Dave Bell (69): That is an odd battery type, isn't it? I hadn't noticed that before. I also see that it's not an actual rocker switch, it just looks like one. Still probably my favorite, though.

Good point about using it in an apartment block, but this is just a two-family house, so probably not an issue.

#73 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 01:34 PM:

Shouldn't be a big problem with the battery, it's available in the usual brands from Amazon, such as Duracell, but it's not something I've noticed in shops.

I'd likely go the remote-control bulb course myself. I need to check some old remote-control socket adaptors I have. The dedicated controller likely needs a battery. I'm finding all sorts of little things left over from before my father died.

The socket units with dedicated controllers are pretty cheap. Android/iPhone compatible costs more, but might be better in the long term.

#74 ::: SamChevre ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 02:27 PM:

KeithS @ 58

Thank you! It seems to be the "www" that causes the problem.

I was looking for site:nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/ hymns: "Composing the Rejected Canon" may be may favorite Making Light thread of all time.

#75 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 02:55 PM:

Dave Bell (73): Multi-socket lamp. Actually a ceiling fan with lights, if the landlord will let me have one put up. And I want a switch I can hang on the wall, right inside the front door, so smartphone capability is not a plus.

#76 ::: Eric ::: (view all by) ::: January 26, 2018, 03:38 PM:

I think that's a CR-12 battery which is pretty common in cheap radio control triggers. I've never had trouble finding them in any place (like supermarkets) that stocks more than AA batteries, in the States or Ireland.

#77 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 01:17 AM:

Allan Beatty @68: Encountered the pipsqueak problem when my first dentist retired. His replacement's style was fast and loose, and her personal hygiene was, shall we say, "casual." Went to her one (1) time. (Fortunately, above-mentioned optometrist recommended the practice she goes to, and I've been very satisfied with them ever since.) My current pcp is pretty young (from my vantage), but seems competent enough. (The advantage of young-uns is, of course, that their training is more recent.)

Had a colonoscopy today and the experience was, contrary to all expectation, entirely delightful.

Prep was only slightly narsty, only had to parch for three hours before the proceedure, and concluded I can totally work with these people (massive improvement over previous experiences). (Well, and the nurse kind of munched my right hand with the IV.) (And why the hell are my thighs sore? Like, from exercise, sore.)

But the best part was the anesthesia. If memory serves (hah!), they used cebcbsby</rot13>. Dunno if it was reading Bujold on the way in, or this thing, but vivid, very geeky dreams. (Like, coming up to consciousness, thinking, "Wow was that ever geeky!") Great music (the details of which entirely elude me. But I checked; they didn't play any music during the proceedure, so it was all apparently entirely endogenous.), and bright blue LED (bwah?) lighting. Sleep was so deep that I completely forgot where I was until I woke up, which never happens.

Much less logy than last time, was actually compos mentis pretty quickly (that stuff is apparently fast-metabolizing), but I was trying to tell jokes, and discovered an interesting cognitive failure-mode: I kept conflating the set-up and the punchline. Like, "How many Boulderites does it take to screw in a hot-tub—no, wait—" Did that a couple of times before I noticed it.

All in all, don't generally do pharmeceuticals recreationally, but I can totally recommend this one.

#78 ::: johnofjack ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 09:54 AM:

Best wishes to abi and to P J Evans.

I do love the community here, though I rarely feel I have anything to add to the conversation. For years I've been lurking much more than participating, and hope it's not too forward to post a poem. It's in memory of a friend who committed suicide some time ago.

I feel certain the line "Things always change; the trick is not to mind" comes from a comment someone made here, but I failed to find it to credit it properly. If that was yours, I'm sorry, and please let me know.

Sestina for Travis

Not all wounds heal--that's the lie we tell about time
To make grief more bearable. Some wounds, of course,
Do heal, but still we reach an age where ache
Portends yet worse to come. Ill cells may force
Out healthy ones, firm flesh abscess, knees break
And mend arthritically. The sharpest mind

May dull, unmoor, Moms fail to bring to mind
The names of first-born sons. The truth of time
Is that while rough-played strings may tend to break,
If strung unplayed they still detune. Each course
We leave unchecked will meet destructive force,
And every loss compounds till chronic ache

Sets in--this galling and relentless ache.
Come walk this labyrinth to soothe your mind.
Make your way with persistent calm, not force,
Past fragrant yew in autumn sun. Do not time
Yourself--impatience makes the winding course
Feel long. Some habits we should keep, some break.

Here now, arriving at the goal, let's break
For lunch: for hunger twists our thoughts. This ache
Will fade away, perspective clear in due course.
Things always change; the trick is not to mind.
Both lions and hyenas have their time;
On ziggurats, young vines take hold. Some force

Dictates what thrives and what decays; some force
Determines if a trunk must bend or break.
We have just now--no guarantee of time.
Can you accept what you can't control? Stop ache
From overwhelming hope? Please bear in mind:
We may help or harm with every chosen course.

Ships crash on rocks, so hopelessly off-course
Survivors know they won't be found. They force
The land to acquiesce, put out of mind
The many ways to fail. With care, they break
Free planks, knap stone, cut vines. They push through ache
To launch their raft, then sweep their strokes in time.

Resolved, they set their course. Gulls cry; waves break,
Salt sprays; they force themselves to rest. They ache
But do not mind--they know they'll arrive, in time.

#79 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 10:06 AM:

johnofjack (78): Very powerful!

#80 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 10:50 AM:

Kerstin, thanks for the sad news. It's better to know than not to know, and I appreciate your consideration. Your brother will be missed here as well. I'm sorry for your loss.

#81 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 10:55 AM:

Johnofjack@78: Sestinas are hard to do in a natural, subtle way -- I doff my metaphorical cap to your skill, and in memory of your friend.

#82 ::: johnofjack ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 05:33 PM:

Thanks for the kind words, Mary Aileen, Em.

#83 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 06:51 PM:

johnofjack, I have done at least some justice to your verse now, reading slowly and repeating as needed. I like the voice, and the very natural, unstrained word choices and cadences. I like it very much. I agree about it being powerful.

#84 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 07:10 PM:

@Jaques: Whatever the colonoscopist used on me knocked me right out. No memories from when I drifted off to when I woke up. I was drowsy but fairly functional right afterwards. I was disappointed that the assistant didn't get a joke I made. No aches or pains. But glad I don't have to repeat the experience for another 5 years or so!

#85 ::: Kjersti ::: (view all by) ::: January 27, 2018, 08:15 PM:

@johnofjack, I'm not sure why this would resonate so strongly but today it did. Thank you.

#86 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2018, 01:59 AM:

Memories are dim, but I'm pretty sure that when I was learning to read, well before I started kindergarten, newspaper comic strips played a big role in the process. All the letters were uppercase, which simplified things, and if I figured out the words, I would be rewarded by understanding of that day's joke.

So from the beginning of my experience with literacy, Beetle Bailey and Sergeant Snorkel have always been around.

Today I learned that Mort Walker has died at the age of 94. From his pen came Beetle and Sarge and Hi and Lois and a lot more.

As I grew older, there were other strips I found funnier and more sophisticated. But I when I was very young, loved Beetle best. And when I open a newspaper, I still read his strip.

In the Seventies, I got a great deal of enjoyment from Walker's book Backstage at the Strips, which offered funny observations about the comics business and the people in it.

Goodbye, Mr. Walker. You taught me to read. And maybe something about drawing. Thanks for the laughs.

#87 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2018, 06:18 PM:

The first time I had a lot of -oscopy work, it was two things in two days. The first one was maybe the colonoscopy (sigmoidoscopy? It's been so long now.) and when I asked for a look, they let me have a few moments at the eyepiece. The next day I came back for the one that went down my throat, and they had an extra eyepiece all set up for me, and I got to watch the whole thing.

Ever since then, I've looked forward eagerly to the procedure, and every time since then, they've just knocked me out with something, and not even made a DVD of the camera feed.

#88 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2018, 06:20 PM:

(ps: "Eagerly" seems like some sort of overstatement. Oh well.)

Re the 'overheard' item at the top of the post, I once overheard this near the student center at Colorado State University.

HE: It was just laying there.
SHE: Was it dead?
HE: No, it winked at me.

#89 ::: johnofjack ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2018, 07:38 AM:

Kip W, Kjersti, thank you. I'm long out of practice so I'm quite happy that the poem works.

Re: colonscopies, I had one early due to my father dying in his 40s from colon cancer. But he was an alcoholic drug abuser and lifelong smoker who loved red meat and who had been exposed several times to Agent Orange (he described one of his tasks in Vietnam as standing in a pit spraying down the vehicles when they came back), so he had several risk factors I don't.

After the colonoscopy I spent nine months trying to get the provider to change the claim code so that insurance would cover it (as it was supposed to) accompanied by increasingly threatening letters about six or seven thousand dollars I supposedly owed them. I think that was worse than the preparation for the procedure (and it's something that must be unique to countries without single-payer healthcare).

#90 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2018, 08:29 AM:

Em @ 39 ...
AKIML: I'm writing an essay to go in the back of a book that I and some other people are editing, and I'm on the hunt for white animals in folklore, particularly British Isles folklore. White harts and white hares I know of, and there are the chalk carvings*, but a larger list would be edifying. I'm headed to a library next week to seek the aid of a Librarian, but it seemed like the sort of thing people here would be likely to be interested in and possibly know about.

I suspect that you're already aware of Aarne-Thompson-Uther Classification of Folk Tales which is here in the Multilingual Folk Tale Database, but having run into it this morning, via an article in the ever distracting Atlas Obscura, it seemed worth pointing out to the assembled.

While I don't know that it will help with finding white animals directly, it seems a reasonably likely to way to find story variants, which are likely to lead off in other interesting directions.

#91 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2018, 01:32 PM:

Folks who program computers, professionally or as amateurs:

You may have heard from me or others about the Recurse Center. They're a worldwide community of sharp, nice, thoughtful programmers, associated with an experimental sort of writer's retreat in New York City. The retreat is free to attend, and they run several batches per year (I participated in the fall of 2013 and then again in 2014, and blogged about it). Recursers work on whatever they'd like during their batch, and often stay involved after their time at RC ends; I participate in the online RC community every day and get a lot of technical and career help from it. RC will also help you get a job after your batch, if you're interested. And they've just announced that they'll be holding one-week minibatches, as well as their usual six-week and twelve-week stints, through the rest of 2018.

RC's not a place to learn to code from scratch, but if you already have at least a little amateur or professional programming experience, it's an incredibly nurturing learning environment, one of the most nurturing communities I've ever been in. I became not just a better programmer during my time at RC; I got better at learning in general and at being less afraid of making mistakes. I gave a speech about that, about what I learned from RC about hospitality. And it's a place to flex and stretch and try new stuff if you've been programming for decades.

RC is committed to keeping the community diverse in thought and background. They came up with the Social Rules to build an inclusive environment that tries to reduce behaviors that make it harder to learn. And they also offer living expense grants for folks who are underindexed in tech. You might have seen my post "Hacker School Gets an A on the Bechdel Test" from when it was called Hacker School.

(And if you applied in the past, feel free to apply again; they like to see reapplications!)

I figure this community has folks who might be interested.

#92 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2018, 01:50 PM:

I have spent the past 20 months with a maggot at the back of my skull. Trumpism is fascism, and Trump is a fascist. We've seen it before But where? In the Pink House.

We cannot, in any reasonable or intelligible sense, compare Trump to either Hitler or Mussolini. There is no central party, no militia, no huge parades of ex-soldiers. Not even castor oil. Nor is there anything resembling a coherent fascist organization. There are no central texts. There are no house ideologues (no Alfredo Rocco, no Alfred Rosenberg), or philosophers.

Nor can we compare this to Romanian fascism (although there was a certain farcical character to that). Again, no militia. But also, Codreanu, the Conducator, never made it to power. The absence of a coherent link between nationalism and religion in the Trump movement is noteworthy (what's the national church that's being exalted?).

Steve Bannon is a lively link to Spanish fascism. Takes me back to my primary school Spanish-language primer, he does. All the way down to the way he caricatures his opponents. Bannon, however, is not Trump. Trump is a horse of a different colour.

Trump exemplifies neither Portuguese nor Brazilian fascism. There's no technocratic element whatsoever. He may be The Man, but that's not because anyone believes he knows what he's doing. And Salazar and Vargas were both competent. Not nice. Competent.

That leaves one fascist regime unmentioned. The last, and, in some ways, least fascist of them all. Argentina. Peronism was a fascism of factions, from extreme right to extreme left. A political movement that can contain Francoists like Bannon, the nutcase left in the form of Jill Stein and Dennis Kucinich, closet nasties like Stephen Miller, and the congeries of chancers, loonies, racists, Nazis, Klowns, and other pond scum currently forming the Trumpist movement, is not an ideologically coherent movement. Yet it is a movement. Peronism, in its classic form from the mid-1940s to the mid-1950s, was precisely that. Incoherent, confused, incompetent, and all held together by loyalty to el jefe.

One almost hesitates to point out that Ivanka and Evita scan the same.

#93 ::: Sumana Harihareswara asks gnomes for help ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2018, 04:42 PM:

I left a comment in this thread that has been gnomed for its many hyperlinks. I could offer some sparkling water?

#94 ::: Don Simpson ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2018, 06:55 PM:

johnofjack@78: I admire this, finding it, as others have said, powerful.

#95 ::: The Girl From Ankyra ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 12:00 PM:

*waves vaguely*
Um, hi, sort-of lurker here.
oldster @48, your comment about people choosing to stay in the past in time travel stories got me thinking. I couldn't think of any off the top of my head, but the whole idea of it feels weird to me - I mean, I don't feel like the past would be a particularly pleasant place, and I'm still on the rather privileged end of the spectrum (cis, white...).
Even in times when we could argue that things were better than now, there's the inevitability that it's going to stop, probably getting worse along the way. So what's the reasoning behind the stories? Is it a "I have a true love here" or some blah, or is it written by people who don't know better, or is it not a trope at all? I mean, the closest I could find was the tv tropes page I choose to stay...
This is going to bug me all day now.
*retreats back behind the lurker curtains*

#96 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 01:10 PM:

The Girl from Ankyra @94:

Welcome!

Now I have an idea for a story where a time-traveller goes into the past to live in a "golden era" (when America was Great, perhaps?), only to find that the past isn't a particularly pleasant place.

#97 ::: Sten ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 01:37 PM:

Buddha Buck @ 95:
That is one of the messages from the movie Midnight in Paris. Well, more "the golden era was fun but not that golden" than "unpleasant", perhaps.

#98 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 01:55 PM:

(from memory) There was a Bester story about people (criminals?) given the choice of being sent into the past or the future, without resources. The past is known to be bad, the future is who knows what.

In any case, it's suggested that if you see a street beggar who doesn't know the local language, it might well be one of those unfortunates.

#99 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 02:33 PM:

The Girl from Ankyra @94: thanks for delurking! Please continue to do so -- I like seeing new voices here, as a synesthetic experience.

#100 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 03:28 PM:

johnofjack @ 78:
Adding my voice of appreciation. (And BTW you've been around long enough and often enough, that I for one remember you.)

Regarding that one line you commented on:
"Things always change; the trick is not to mind"

Its pacing and tone reminds me of this line from Mike Ford's beloved sonnet 'Against Entropy':
"The universe winds down. That's how it's made."

and also to a lesser degree the line before it:
"Perhaps you will not miss them. That's the joke."

Perhaps one of these helped spark the line and the association?

#101 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 03:52 PM:

FYI: Until the gnomes get around to releasing Sumana's #92 from durance gnomish, it's readable by clicking on her view-all-by link.

#102 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 04:02 PM:

oldster @ 48: just how confirmed a choice must it be?
* the starlet in The Technicolor(R) Time Machine chooses to continue living with the Norse "discoverer" of North America -- but she's portrayed as very dim, so may not count.
* Brendan Doyle in The Anubis Gates (1983) -- but memory is unclear whether he could get back.
* I don't remember enough of Poul Anderson's The Corridors of Time (1965) to be sure the lead makes a free choice (would he be able to hide from future self-righteous if he went home?).
* In Julian May's The Many-Colored Land (1981) people leave the present in many groups -- but they have no idea what they're in for, they just want out of the present.

Jacque @ 62: sometimes provider retirement can be a win; I found a new primary within walking distance when my previous (who was even closer to the more-concentrated area I was living in 42 years ago) retired. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen often.
@ 77: and sorry to hear your dental substitute failed; the one who bought the practice I'd been going to is a lot more up to date. Pity it's such a crapshoot....

Allan Beatty @ 68: considering my state of energy these years, I'd rather have a "young pipsqueak" in charge of both my health and my country.

Kip W @ 87: kewl! I got to watch my vocal cords not-meeting some time ago; not much to be done other than work around, but a neat experience for a geek.

@johnofjack: I sympathize with your billing troubles, having just been through the advance version of this (previous results mean I should get exams more frequently, so I went through enough bureaucracy to ensure that a new insurer covered). However, your experience may not happen in other non-singlepayer countries; I have read that France still has private insurance, but much more regulated than in the US.

Nancy Lebovitz @ 97: maybe the same Bester, maybe different; I'm recalling not criminals but people who made a bad choice and can't get up the funds to get sent back (e.g., to Hiroshima 1945 from later -- that's how out-of-place the traveled feel).

I'm amazed there haven't been more answers in the time since oldster asked.

#103 ::: The Girl From Ankyra ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 04:38 PM:

Buddha Buck @95 and Tom Whitmore @98: Thanks!

Buddha Buck @95: I'm curious - would you say that people get nostalgic for eras they haven't lived in? IME it was always more like the golden age was when the person was a child "when I were a lad" and that stuff, but my experience is not all that extensive.
Then again, a time traveller who wanted to go back to "when America was great" may not have that many qualms about going back to their own childhood and possible time paradoxes anyway... So the story would probably still work.

#104 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 05:45 PM:

Otto Bettmann, of the Bettmann Archive, wrote a wonderful book that's full of facts and archive pictures to demonstrate the thesis (and title) of the volume: The Good Old Days: They Were Terrible!

There were plenty of things I knew about, but also a stunning array of awful things about those days some people (*cough*GOP*cough*) want to return us to. I learned that horses in cities were vectors for disease, because they lived in livery stables, where urine-soaked straw found its way out into the street where it was pounded (along with manure) into a fine powder that the wind took everywhere. No window could keep the blinding, choking stuff out. Our forebears were so damn happy to see the internal combustion engine come along and put those horses out of business. And there was no downside! Instead of horrid, polluting dust, they just let some trivial vapors out into the air, where it vanished forever, like a cigarette butt when a smoker lets go of it.

#105 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 05:49 PM:

There was a story in Analog where editor [based on Campbell] gets curious about a writer and tracks them down. It's a young woman from the future, writing about the past she experienced while it's still the future.
(I don't, unfortunately, remember who wrote it. Or the title. Or what year it's from.)

#106 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 06:33 PM:

The Girl from Ankyra @102:

While the "when I were a lad" nostalgia is probably most common, it is definitely possible to be nostalgic about past times you never experiences.

One way this can happen is to get caught up in other people's nostalgia. It is common for pop culture to present nostalgia from a period about 25 years ago -- two examples are Happy Days (show in 1970's about the 1950's) and That 70s Show (show in the 1990's about the 1970s). As a kid, watching Happy Days, Laverne & Shirley, American Graffiti, Grease, and other late-70's homages to the best of the 1950's, I could easily have become nostalgic for the 50's, despite being born in the early 70's. (It doesn't help that I was reading Asimov, Clarke, Heinlein, Sheckley, and other pre-New Wave SF at the time).

It's also fairly common to look back at past "golden ages" and want to emulate them. A common term for it is "Classical Revivalism", and comes and goes. Sometimes it gets somewhat recursive: Steampunk idealizes Victoriana, including the Greco-Roman revivalism of the Victorians. I'm sure there are other examples.

#107 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 06:38 PM:

I recall a book whose title escapes me in which the teenage protagonist gets three trips to the Victorian era on her apartment building's elevator. She meets and befriends a girl close to her own age in the past, and the end of the book implies that she's taken her (widowed?) father back with her and he has married the other girl's widowed mother.

#108 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 07:11 PM:

I think a lot of the "good old days" thing is, as mentioned above, because people just don't know how terrible they were. I recall spending a considerable time explaining to a (Jewish) coworker who had just been to Medieval Times Dinner Theater that he *didn't* want to go back to the Middle Ages. (He'd never heard of pogroms!!)

#109 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 07:12 PM:

The Girl From Ankyra: Hi! ::wavewavewave:: You know me from Twitter.

#110 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 07:27 PM:

107
My father's mother wrote about her childhood in southeastern Kansas in the late 1880s and the 1890s. While she didn't write a lot about the bad stuff, it's not exactly hidden. (It does explain why she drank tea as an adult: when she was a kid, coffee (strong and bitter) was used for delivering medicine.)

#111 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 07:27 PM:

107
My father's mother wrote about her childhood in southeastern Kansas in the late 1880s and the 1890s. While she didn't write a lot about the bad stuff, it's not exactly hidden. (It does explain why she drank tea as an adult: when she was a kid, coffee (strong and bitter) was used for delivering medicine.)

#112 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 07:28 PM:

109/110:
the Dreaded Internal Server Error strikes again!

#113 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 07:32 PM:

CarrieS@106: I think that's Time at the Top, by Edward Ormondroyd. Sequel All in Good Time. The two have been reprinted in one volume by Purple House Press.

#114 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 09:14 PM:

#104 ::: P J Evans

I'm not crazed on the subject, but I'm fond of the Italian renaissance. I like the clothes, I like the food, and I like the city patriotism.

I've fantasized about letting John Campbell read A Fire Upon the Deep and asking how much of it he thought was science fiction.

I've also fantasized about showing H. P. Lovecraft a pair of Cthulhu bedroom slippers, but that would really be unkind unless I also gave him a good bit of money.

Perhaps he should also be handed a copy of Winter Tide.

#115 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2018, 09:33 PM:

P J Evans @104: That's "Hindsight" by Harry Turtledove (who if memory serves was still at the time writing as "Eric G. Iverson").

#116 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 03:25 AM:

The Girl From Ankyra @ #94:

Hi again. Welcome to our virtual space, which is more ever-present than Gatherings of Lights, who are all over the place, but very coarsely distributed in time.

#117 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 08:57 AM:

114
Thanks - I really didn't want to try finding it in ISFDB. (I know I kept that issue, because of it - It's In A Box - that box, I can get to.)

#118 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 09:45 AM:

Re nostalgia for times we haven't experienced. There's a quote I can't remember or locate, something to the effect of people being willing to live in a feudal society as long as they are one of the nobility.

More generally, I think it's easy to look at one's current problems and think, if I lived in a different time I wouldn't have this particular problem. It's not immediately obvious that you would acquire six other problems because the solutions you take for granted would be gone.

The problems and their distress are real, but the solutions generally require moving forward, not turning back the clock. If the question is "how do we get from here to there?" the answer of "don't be here" is not useful.

#119 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 10:52 AM:

OtterB @117: You may be thinking of the Bujold quote "Egalitarians adjust to aristocracies just fine, as long as they get to be the aristocrats," which Miles attributes to Cordelia.

Regarding books where people stay in the past: R.A. MacAvoy's The Book of Kells has a swap, one person from the present staying in the past, one person from the past staying in the present (if memory serves). The person remaining in the past is not inclined to romanticize it, however.

#120 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 11:35 AM:

Kip W @103: Our forebears were so damn happy to see the internal combustion engine come along and put those horses out of business.

I'm wondering how long it will be until our culture learns to build consequence assessment into its tech development path. We're already seeing impacts on bird and bat populations (as well as noise) from wind turbines.

Quill: I've also heard a related comment wrt SCA: you see people cosplaying nobles, but rarely the peasantry.

#121 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 11:43 AM:

Quill @118, I bet the Bujold quote was what I was thinking of. Thanks!

Jacque @119 I think of that sometimes, building consequence assessment into tech development. Clearly you want to do that. But I'm not sure how you balance the cost-benefit. Nearly everything has mixed effects, and often you need to go through suboptimal versions 1, 2, and 3 before you get to the pretty darned workable version 4. It's hard.

#122 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 12:16 PM:

The Girl from Ankyra @102: the late Jack Finney built most of his writing career around variations on the things-were-better-before-we-were-born motif. (Although Finney also wrote about how dreadful life was for his contemporaries.) Possibly there are cycles -- living nostalgia leaving enough record to be revived by a generation without direct knowledge. ISTM that sometimes things come back just because they look cool: the first Steampunk book was a rather dry tome -- ISTM that it has spread due to art and wearables, not that those don't overlap.

Which reminds me that JF's "The Third Level" involves somebody deliberately abandoning 1950 for the (late?) 1800's. Can anyone cite an older example?

OtterB @ 117: More generally, I think it's easy to look at one's current problems and think, if I lived in a different time I wouldn't have this particular problem. Oh yes -- that's so common I'm surprised Bester didn't use it in "5,271,009".

Just because it's gorgeous: The Star Wars posters of Soviet Europe.

#123 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 01:02 PM:

CHip @101--
Thanks for all of these further thoughts! Your knowledge of the sci-fi literature is much more extensive than mine.

Girl from Ankyra @94--I'm so glad that my offhand comment prompted your reflections, and prompted you to de-lurk.
Your 'nym sounds like it should be the title of a lost comedy by Menander.

I don't know why anyone would want to return to the past.
I can actually speak to this question from personal experience, since I grew up in the past. For those of you who didn't, let me tell you: it sucked.

My question about "Harding's Luck" still stands, though: are there any earlier instances of a time-traveler deciding to stay in the past?

#124 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 02:05 PM:

oldster @122 -- thinking about it, what you need is an expert in 19th C SF. They're mostly curmudgeonly old guys at this point -- the best one I know that's still alive is Bob Brown, who loves the 19th C SF in the way I follow 20th C stuff. There's an email link on the front page of his website: if you write and ask him the question, couching it in terms of his expertise on 19th C SF, he'll probably answer. You can tell him I sent you (I was in a bookselling partnership with him and Clint Bigglestone over 40 years ago, and we still are friends).

#125 ::: The Girl From Ankyra ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 03:09 PM:

Thanks for all your nicenesses! It makes my decision to de-lurk feel like a good one.
Kip W @103: That disease vector thing sounds terrifying. Out of curiosity, would we be more susceptible to diseases that have since been eradicated because we haven't been exposed to them?
Jacque and Ingvar M: Hi! *waves back*

#126 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 03:18 PM:

Carrie S. @ #106: I think I remember reading Time at the Top, now that you mention it. IIRC, it was a case of the time travelers having become attached to individuals in the past; and I guess the historical record prevented them from bringing them forward instead. Other examples would be Time and Again and Timeline.

The time-travelers in Bradbury’s “The Fox in the Forest,” on the other hand, come from a future nasty enough that they think fleeing to 1938 is a good idea. Possibly they’re just historically uninformed, although since their repressive government bothers to send an elaborate conspiracy of agents after them, maybe their own century really is that cruel.

#127 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 03:28 PM:

oldster@122: In Nesbit's The Story of the Amulet, Imogen, a Cockney orphan, is taken back to 55 BC and stays there with a woman whom she thinks is her mother (the 55 BC mother in turn thinks her daughter was not eaten by wolves after all). But that's the same author, and not much before.

#128 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 03:57 PM:

The movie Get Out is back in theaters for Oscar season. I went to see it yesterday.

Whoooooaaaahhh nelly. That has to be one the most effective, plot-twisty thrillers of the century so far, and in the running for the greats of the genre. Right away it establishes a tense vibe that at first seems to be veiled middle class racism. Then it gets strange and uncomfortable and then goes full out gonzo.

I believe the title comes from what half the audience wants to scream at the lead character starting a half an hour in.

#129 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 04:48 PM:

Fragano #91: what's the national church that's being exalted?)

If modern America has a national church, it's the worship of Mammon.

Time Travel: I also recall a short story "The Snowbirds", about time travelers coming from the future, in large numbers. There was some indication that the flood of indigent refugees was in fact helping to create the crapsack future that they were fleeing from.

#130 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 06:30 PM:

HelenS @126--

Eeek! Suddenly I'm afraid that perhaps my mental Nesbit file has gotten badly jumbled, and I am actually remembering the end of the Amulet and confusing it with Harding's Luck. Must re-read whole corpus now!

#131 ::: Tim May ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 06:34 PM:

A while back, I meant to post a link here to this blog post about baking cuneiform cookies, but never got around to it. The author has recently done another one. (That blog is mostly translations of short texts from the ancient near east, and may also be of interest to some here.)

If I recall correctly, I was at that time also intending to link this high-res timelapse animation of the Earth on one day in August 2015 as captured by the Japanese Himawari-8 weather satellite.

#132 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 07:48 PM:

oldster@129: No, Harding's Luck also has a character who stays in the past.

#133 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 08:17 PM:

@Tim May: AWESOME! Eat the epic!

#134 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2018, 11:24 PM:

The Girl From Ankyra @124: It sounds possible, but I couldn't say more than that with the amount of biology knowledge I have. I would expect (he went on) that a germ from the past would have as much chance of being really bad for us as something completely new, though maybe we have some genetic advantage over things that we 'beat' in the past.

Gah. I'm not expressing this very well. I think I'm going to shut everything off and go sleep.

#135 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2018, 09:31 AM:

Story of the Amulet also has someone from the past staying permanently in the present, but who can only do so by way of merging with a present-day human (which does raise the question of what happened, in the long run, to poor Imogen in 55 BC. Perhaps being subbed in for the little girl eaten by wolves was enough to allow her to stay without harm.)

A recent run of the Jonah Hex comic book had a storyline that brought Hex forward to the present day for a while, but the woman who fell for him and insisted on accompanying him back to the past died almost immediately upon arrival, of some 19th-century virus; much to my spouse’s annoyance as he’d liked the character and felt she deserved a better fate.

#136 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2018, 10:33 AM:

HelenS@131--thanks for confirming this. My files are still quite corrupted, but at least that part was correct.

And I'm so happy to encounter other Nisbet fans!

#137 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2018, 12:43 PM:

Noting the typo for "Nesbit" as "Nisbet" in 35, allow me to mention that there's a contemporary children/YA writer Anne Nesbet, whose first couple of books have some of the feel of Nesbit without feeling as much like pure hommages as Edward Eager's books did. She's worth checking out.

#138 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2018, 02:44 PM:

I have lived in the past, both literally and metaphorically. Imagine me, if you will, thrust back 80 years, back into the late nineteenth century. Able to journey to the twentieth century every day, but living in the nineteenth.

I found myself preferring the world of the television, stereo, and refrigerator to that of having to smoke and salt my meat, ice being a luxury, and constantly having to trim the wicks of lamps. But that's me.

#139 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2018, 09:55 PM:

Fragano at # 91: Thank you for thinking this out so clearly and putting it into words.

You have set out the same conclusion that I arrived at by a murky path when I posted in 2016 that I was forced to vote for Nixon over Peron. I wasn't as knowledgeable as you and I debated writing Berlusconi instead of Peron.

#140 ::: johnofjack ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2018, 06:22 AM:

Don Simpson, Clifton: thanks!

The Girl From Ankyra: welcome!

Stefan Jones @ 127: It's great, isn't it?... Peele says the title's a reference to Eddie Murphy's bit about white people in horror movies.

#141 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2018, 11:10 AM:

johnofjack @139:

That probably explains that whenever I heard the title of the movie I thought of that Eddie Murphy bit.

#142 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 01:51 AM:

As long as we're talking about SF firsts, I've been wondering recently whether Firesign Theatre's I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus, from 1971, is the first fictional depiction of an intruder hacking into a computer system, which would make it arguably the origin point for cyberpunk.

I'd think there should be some much earlier SF depictions but I can't think of one. Does anybody know of an earlier SF work on or including that subject?

#143 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 06:03 AM:

The original 1969 version of The Italian Job gets close, with the Professor Peach character (Benny Hill) messing up the traffic lights in Turin by using a replacement computer program and substituting the tapes. So I doubt you can call it hacking. But networking computers was around, with the NPL in Britain doing it since 1965. ARPANET came second.

It wouldn't surprise me if something involved a computer in The Avengers but actual hacking, I am not sure about.

#144 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 10:59 AM:

The science-thriller movie GOG (1954) has computer hacking-into. Moles from an alien power plant transceivers in the computer which controls operations in a secret underground lab, allowing agents in a stratospheric jet/spacecraft to use test equipment (and non-anthropomorphic robots) as murder weapons.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047033/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

#145 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 11:02 AM:

The 1954 movie GOG has computer hacking. Enemy agents plant transceivers in a computer which controls an underground science lab, allowing agents in a high-altitude plane to use test equipment as murder instruments.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047033/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

#146 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 11:59 AM:

Stefan Jones @ 143/144: In some respects I prefer the "alien mole-people hack the underground lab" version.

#147 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 03:46 PM:

Thanks for ungnoming #91!

#148 ::: SunflowerP ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 04:29 PM:

Open-thready signal boost for the 2018 Gender Census (formerly known as the Nonbinary/Genderqueer Stats Survey). Cassian Lodge (whom some folks here might know as the creator of the 'Poly in Pictures' webcomic) has been doing this survey annually for five years now - it's quite short and easy, so I encourage any folks who ID as nonbinary, genderqueer, gender-variant or gender-nonconforming, or otherwise feel that their gender isn’t fully expressed or described by the gender binary, to consider taking part, and for anyone who has NB/GQ friends, family, followers, etc to please boost the signal in turn.

Fragano Ledgister @92: 'The absence of a coherent link between nationalism and religion in the Trump movement is noteworthy (what's the national church that's being exalted?)'
Dave Harmon @129: 'If modern America has a national church, it's the worship of Mammon.'

My initial thought regarding Fragano's point was that there is certainly an incoherent, but nonetheless extant, link, to a cluster of strands of conservative Protestantism that many Trumpists want to think of as the USian national church. Dave's response, though, gave me something at which I could point more precisely - it's those strands that have bought in, to greater or lesser extent, to Prosperity Gospel theology.

#149 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 06:34 PM:

@Joel: HAH! I meant mole as in double agent, but mole people *would* have been cool.

(I got a 500 error and didn't see 144 when I returned to the thread, so I started over . . . delayed action posting!)

I did not realize that GOG was originally a 3D film! I've heard it was a staple of Saturday afternoon TV, but I never knew about it until a few years back. The body count in the film is astonishing! People get cryogenically frozen and shattered, smooshed in a centrifuge, solar-flared, and rended by a robot.

#150 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: February 04, 2018, 07:40 PM:

Surely Spock hacks into one or two alien computer systems? and aliens into the Enterprise's system?

#151 ::: Jeremy Leader ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2018, 01:53 AM:

Does The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (1966) count? There's definitely unauthorized activity in a computer network controlling the lunar colony, though most of it is conducted by the newly-sentient computer itself.

#152 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2018, 05:12 PM:

If Jack the Ripper had ever attacked a Victorian practical mathematician, that would have counted as an early example of hacking a computer.

#153 ::: Theophylact ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2018, 05:29 PM:

Hot Millions (1968: Peter Ustinov, Maggie Smith) was my first thought of early computer hacking. Embezzlement using unauthorized access to a mainframe; the mode of access is rather amusing.

#154 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2018, 08:30 PM:

#153 ::: Theophylact

I'm reminded of Rosalie Goes Shopping, a thoroughly charming movie if you're in the mood for a Nietzschian heroine, but it's more recent.

#155 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2018, 10:29 PM:

I vaguely remember reading a book... I'd guess in the early or mid-1970s... where the Olympic Games were held and the girlfriend(?) of one of the competitors puts a lucky green frog(?) statue on top of a computer, which then declares the competitor an Olympic world record holder... I think perhaps in swimming, but it might have been track and field. Because the frog was magnetic, you see, and messed up the computer.

I remember virtually nothing else about it. And as you can tell by the question marks, what I do remember is not definite.

And there was an old Disney movie called The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes, but that would be the case of a computer hacking a person, I think... <grin>

#156 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2018, 11:10 PM:

I wonder if Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine fits?

#157 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 05:58 AM:

I think the earliest depiction of hacking thing might be a conflict between the different uses of the label. I can think of three broad classes.

1: The skilled programmer who is allowed access.

2: Illicit manipulation of an isolated computer.

3: Illicit manipulation of a networked computer.

I think what we see in media today is essentially Type 3, though the access isn't always over the network. My earlier example of Professor Peach in "The Italian Job" would be Type 2.

The Type 1 maybe comes out of the WW2 idea of the Boffin, the hacking label is much later. The computer-related senses go back to the 1960s, but it may have earlier roots in Amateur Radio.

I could point to the events of Apollo XIII as a trigger, not really a computer thing, but an example of the mindset. They were "space scientists" but there was a feel in some of the improvisations that "I could have done that."

#158 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 08:44 AM:

I usually go to WisCon (Memorial Day weekend (late May) in Madison, Wisconsin), and indeed will attend again this year. WisCon has a member assistance fund and you can nominate yourself or someone else for financial help by Feb. 28th, if some money (up to USD$500) would enable you/them to attend.

#159 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 12:19 PM:

He who takes credit for the ladders should take credit, methinks, for the snakes.

#160 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 04:02 PM:

oldster @ 123: the suckitude of the past varies widely with personal experience (and probably race, gender, ...), and with one's assessment of current messes. e.g., I'm young enough (b.1953) not to remember panics over polio outbreaks; I do remember everyone cheering when the injectable Salk vaccine was replaced with the Sabin oral, and not understanding what was so special. Despite a generally supported childhood, I have no desire to go back. However, what I've read recently suggests that people do paper over unpleasant experiences (when they can -- PTSD happens when the experience is too disturbing for this), making the past seem rosier. This is hardly new; "Miniver Cheevy" came out a year after Harding's Luck, but snickers at such dreamers go back at least to Don Quixote. I also wonder how many people insufficiently well-read in SF (which has many counter-examples) believe they could do well taking their current knowledge to the past; "5,271,009" snickers at a short-term version of this, but despite the others who have dissected it we still get people suffering from Connecticut Yankee Syndrome -- see, e.g., Leo Frankowski.

Kip W @ 134 maybe we have some genetic advantage over things that we 'beat' in the past. Most of the things we "beat" were conquered by vaccines (which sometimes wear off), rather than stronger genes; with more vectors around, ISTM that someone traveling to the past would at least need to be sure vaccines are current.

Allan Beatty @ 139: I was forced to vote for Nixon over Peron. That's ... extreme. Nixon appears to have been a fundamentally dishonest pathological personality from way back (i.e., Watergate was not a devolution). I'm aware that some of the Left makes no distinction.

Jeremy Leader @ 151: I'd call tMiaHM a variant of the Colossus theme, where the computer chooses ~disobey but is not re-controlled as in all of Dave Bell @ 157's classes. And I'm sure Colossus was not the first example given how old the science-gets-out-of-control theme is.

#161 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 04:29 PM:

SpaceX has successfully launched the Falcon Heavy! (With its showboating payload of Elon Musk's Tesla Roadster.) :D We're going back to spaaaaaaace!

I feel an optimism that has been lacking all my life. Once again we are building rockets that can carry humans past Low Earth Orbit. Once again we have the resources to look up towards the stars and not only dream, but build.

#162 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 05:58 PM:

We watched the launch just after school today, and the one or two people who knew what was going on in full explained it. I thought one of them was making it up about the Tesla. The young-oriented-news program we watch also featured space, this time as Mars.

My sister would colonize Mars if she could. When asked, I explained that we played a lot of Oregon Trail as kids.

#163 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 07:37 PM:

CHip at #160: I meant the policy aspects of Nixon's presidency, not the vindictiveness and other personality failings.

#164 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2018, 08:24 PM:

162
The Tesla - and its dummy "driver" - are real. So is the screen in front of him which reads, in large letters, "Don't Panic". (I've heard it's an iPad. Wonder how long it will hold up.) There's even a live feed, or was earlier, from the on-board cameras. (The views of Earth are, as usual, glorious.)

#165 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 12:21 AM:

Chip #160:

It seems like there are both plusses and minuses to being in the past. For me, the minuses outweigh the plusses, but I can kind-of imagine how someone else might have a different answer.

One big obvious reason to want to stay in the past as a time traveler is that you have knowledge nobody else has. If you have a head full of 21st century knowledge in the 18th century or the 14th century, you can invent the steam engine and the railroad and the telegraph, whereas your knowledge is worth a lot less in the 21st century. If you dream of conquering a big chunk of the world, or having vast wealth, or armies of servants, that's all probably easier to do back then than now.

The bad news is, even if you start the industrial revolution centuries early and become the wealthiest and most powerful person on Earth, you're still going to be wishing you could come back to the 21st century when you've got a bad tooth or an infected cut, or when you're living in a hot climate but air conditioning won't be invented for another couple centuries, or....

#166 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 08:50 AM:

albatross #165, Dara O Briain (my apologies for the lack of diacritics) has a very funny bit about just that thing.

(Does contain some swearing, if you're in a location where listening to a youtube video with swearing might not be appropriate.)

#167 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 09:43 AM:

P J Evans @ 164:

My experience with industrial electronic devices is that the electronics are rated down to -40°F/-40°C, but that the LCD screens will freeze at around 20°F/-7°C. This isn't to say that they won't work when it's colder, but it's not guaranteed. That said, that's at standard atmospheric pressure. I'd expect the liquid part of an LCD to boil off before full vacuum.

I'd guess that an iPad, being consumer electronics, would stop working before that.

#168 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 12:55 PM:

Cassy B @ #155: IIRC correctly, that was The Electronic Olympics by Hal Higdon; and the toy frog affecting the computer was the thing that finally pushed the Olympics committee into recognizing that the computer scores weren’t perfect, because inaccuracy was so glaringly obvious they couldn’t ignore it (I think someone slipped and fell awkwardly into the pool and the scoreboard went nuts and flashed a score of one million+).

Dave Bell @ #157: I used to have an old book by Allan Pinkerton that contained a chapter, “The Lightning Stealers,” about criminals sending false telegraph messages in order to manipulate the stock market, though I think that was more a matter of bribing the telegraph operators.

albatross @ #165: The Conrad Stargard books were a nice 50/50 take on this theme – Stargard’s engineering skills are useful as a starting point, but early on he realizes that most of what he’s been taught to do rests on the Industrial Revolution already having happened, and thus the easy availability of mass-produced, standardized parts; whereas in medieval Poland, he has to rely on describing the theory of what he wants to the local craftspeople, and then work with them to figure out a version that can be made with the technology already available.

#169 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 01:39 PM:

I already wrote to the Hugo Award administrators to ask this, but figured I'd also share the question here.

I would like to nominate, for a Hugo Award, a multimedia science fiction work called 17776 (description).

17776 is told partially in prose (approximately 25,000 words based on my cut-and-pasting count), partially in short video clips (totalling 28 minutes and 30 seconds in running time), and partially in comics. It was published on SBNation.com as a serial starting in early July 2017, and was available to read in its entirety by July 15, 2017.

On the basis of its length in prose I could nominate it as a novella; I could also imagine it fitting into Best Graphic Story, Best Dramatic Presentation (Short Form), or Best Related Work.

Thoughts?

#170 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 01:52 PM:

Sarah E:

Yeah, the 1632 series does a lot of this, where the uptimers are trying to make motors or precision firearms or whatever, and they're having to get the components made by hand, with all the variability that implies.

In that series, several of the uptimers[1] express frustration with the event that brought them back at time, but others think it was the best thing that ever happened to them--particularly two characters who met their wives in the past and who are now major players on the world stage, whereas they were nobodies in our world.

Basically all the uptimers in this book become more influential and important in the world than they were in ours. However, there was really only one guy who was actually important in our world in Grantsville when it went back in time--everyone else was just some random person in a coal-mining town--an ex-boxer turned coal miner, a high school principal, a manager for the mining company, a high school history teacher, a big-city emergency room doctor, etc. The important-in-our-world guy does pretty well in the new world, too.

[1] The series starts when a gigantic plot device throws a small West Virginia town into the middle of the thirty years' war in Germany in 1632. In the series, "uptimers" means people from the 20th century, and "downtimers" means everyone else.

#171 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 02:18 PM:

Sumana @169: I loved that too, and would like to see it nominated!

My own looking at it puts it in Graphic Story as the best fit, with DP and Novella being just not right for it. Other people's mileage will vary -- you asked for thoughts, not answers!

#172 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 06:11 PM:

KeithS @167:

Things cool down slowly in space, especially if it generates heat like electronics would. Even if the liquid crystals would freeze at 20F, it would still take a long time to get there. Since an iPad generates heat when in use, it's possible that overheating is more of a concern than freezing, until the battery dies.

The liquid crystals are in a sealed package, and aren't exposed to the vacuum. It's doubtful that they would boil away.

#173 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 07:47 PM:

From today's Twitters, RIP John Perry Barlow, and good luck to Patrick and Teresa on their move to a new apartment in Brooklyn.

#174 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 08:17 PM:

Sumana Harihareswara: #169: Indeed 17776 was great, and it was linked from here, so many of us have seen it.

Time Travel: The thing is, in (say) the 15th century, a head full of 19th-century would be more useful than a head full of 21st century knowledge.

As Albatross alludes to, most of our modern wonders are closely bound to our technosphere. Forget about computers -- even the simplest modern chip is the result of cooperation by many thousands of people scattered across multiple fields of knowledge. Mechanical computers? Even before you get to materials and crafting, just how well do you know how any of the Babbage engines really worked? Could you sketch the parts from memory?

Same deal for engines, even. For most devices, you'd need to do all the development yourself, presumably with local resources. But how many ores and minerals could you recognize in situ, let alone how to refine them, or form the alloys? How will you feed yourself and your workers while you're playing with ores and experimenting with odd, initially-useless, devices?

Now, social and "practical" knowledge might be more useful -- but a lot of that is likewise bound to our own culture, and to the easy availability and transportation of resources. And if some odd trick is practical in the local environment, there's decent odds that the locals already know about it.

I'll grant, say, knowing that alfalfa or pulse crops are best for fallow fields, and that volcanic ash can help with mineral depletion -- but that's incremental knowledge, which basically lets you be a better farmer.

Sanitation looks like a gimme, until you consider that you need a lot of fuel for boiling all that water, and somebody's got to chop that wood and haul that water. Alcohol and vinegar will cost money and be in limited supply regardless of money.

Psychological knowledge might seem useful, until people notice how you're "always" getting your way, and start resorting to argumentum ad baculum -- if they don't denounce you as a heretic or witch. Not to mention you still have to deal with the existing power structures; most places and times, you simply will not be able to join the nobility (that is, the people who are allowed to give orders) unless you're related to the right people, and as a new arrival, you're not related to anybody -- in fact, you have all the usual problems of an immigrant from foreign parts. (Let alone if your features resemble those of a locally-denigrated race.)

In general, acquiring a labor force would be easier said than done in most milieus, as most people around you are busy making their own living, commonly by labor-intensive farming. Often they'll also be obligated to someone who will object to you swiping their serfs. (And how will you feed them?) Even the nobility have their own obligations, and will be unlikely to endanger their own positions for your project.

#175 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 09:00 PM:

Sumana @169: Thank you for the reminder. 17776 is a wonderfully creative work, and it's definitely science fiction. I think it is a Graphic Story.

#176 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: February 07, 2018, 10:02 PM:

As I recall, Martin Padway in Lest Darkness fall taught double entry bookkeeping.

#177 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 07:50 AM:

I've always wondered if I could parlay the one-time pad and running key into something useful in Elizabethan England--otherwise known as "East Berlin with lace ruffs".

#178 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 10:55 AM:

KeithS #167, Buddha Buck #172: The change in pressure might still make a lot of things unhappy -- contacts pulled out of line, etc. Exposure to vacuum also does weird things to many materials -- evaporation of volatiles, and, IIRC, even evaporation (and re-deposition) of metals. And then there's the effects of radiation!

#179 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 11:15 AM:

Buddha Buck @ 172 and Dave Harmon @ 178:

I was initially thinking about the cold at altitude, but a spacebound rocket isn't really going to spend much time in the upper atmosphere before leaving altogether. Correct, in space the problem is heat dissipation, since there's no air to take the heat away by convection.

But vacuum still isn't good for a lot of things, as Dave Harmon points out, and I'd forgotten about the radiation. I'm not foreseeing much of a happy future for that iPad.

#180 ::: Theophylact ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 11:51 AM:

The strike-anywhere match would be useful at almost any time in the past, and could be made using technology available to the Alexandrian Greeks. First, though, you'd have to "discover" phosphorus, which wasn't known until the late 17th century in our time. But unlike Hennig Brand, you wouldn't have to boil down enormous amounts of urine; bone, guano, or rock would be much richer in the element.

Zinc has been known since at least the ninth cntury, and a copper-zinc cell would be trivial to make and use for a variety of things.

#181 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 12:26 PM:

I'm rusty on my basic physics, but if I had access to copper and iron, and the means to get a blacksmith to do the work, I think I could manage to build a basic electric generator and a carbon-arc light. (I've just re-read A Canticle For Leibowitz. It's remarkably depressing in a time when the threat of nuclear war is relatively high.)

Making float glass in its simplest form doesn't require anything more than glass and tin. It might be necessary to do in batches rather than the more modern continuous process. Melt some tin, put the glass on top, raise the temperature high enough to melt the glass, let the temperature drop enough to solidify the glass sheet, remove the glass.

Depending on when I landed, I could probably significantly boost the efficiency of the smelting process, to get a lot more iron out of a given amount of ore. And I know the "secret" of Damascus steel, though it would take a fair bit of time and work to make it work.

Just getting physicians to wash their hands between patients, to get rid of the invisible demons that cause illness, would be a big thing. If necessary, make the hand-washing part of a small religious ritual.

For a number of these things, I know the "secret" but have no practical experience. The problem would be to persuade people to let me work with them, while supporting myself. I would never have made a good apprentice blacksmith, and now, without the meds that manage my chronic pain, I'd be doing really badly.

#182 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 12:51 PM:

Dave Harmon @174: Time Travel: The thing is, in (say) the 15th century, a head full of 19th-century would be more useful than a head full of 21st century knowledge.

The limitation I always slap up against in my thought experiments is plastic. I think we vastly underestimate how much we depend on a light flexible, waterproof material. Just think about how much being able to stay dry in bad weather impacts your overall well-being.

Sanitation looks like a gimme, until you consider that you need a lot of fuel for boiling all that water,

Well, there's the trick of putting soda-bottles of water up on your roof to be purified by UV—oh wait, no soda bottles. Sure, you could use glass bottles, but you thought the wood was labor-intensive....

Joel Polowin @181: Making float glass in its simplest form doesn't require anything more than glass and tin.

...and lots of heat. I also wonder how much you'd wind up struggling with the chemistry of your glass.

Just getting physicians to wash their hands between patients

...in actually clean water. Makes me wonder: low-tech chlorine production...?

#183 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 01:07 PM:

Things that would be surprisingly easy to make even in the 15th century:

Hot air balloon
Steam engine
Slide rule
Railroad
Glider
Phonograph

They'd be crude, but they're possible.

#184 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 02:33 PM:

Jacque @182 - If you can work glass at all, you've got the means to melt it in at least moderate quantity. And I'm fairly sure that thin and really-flat glass would be a pretty valuable commodity to have a lock on, if you're in a situation that permits trade with a sufficiently-upscale market.

Chlorine production... well, if you can build an electrical generator, that would be one of the potential products. But boiled water would probably be good enough, distilled alcohol even better, fresh stream water might do depending on the source, and any kind of hand-washing better than none at all. If you're near an ocean, roasting kelp in an oven can give you iodine as a sublimate wherever the output gases cool. I don't recall if there are particular varieties of kelp that are preferred for this.

One problem with any of this stuff is that for much of history, crafts/trades tended to be fairly insular. I would expect to have a lot of trouble getting a blacksmith to take me seriously and listen to my suggestions, since I am so obviously not a blacksmith myself. "I have some brilliant ideas, you do the work, and we'll split the profits" is an approach that has never been popular among the people who have to do the work.

#185 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 06:23 PM:

If you can build an electrical generator, all sorts of simple things can be made -- like hydrogen gas, good for all sorts of things including lighter-than-air craft and certain kinds of bomb. Electrolysis of water is dead simple.

#186 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 06:50 PM:

183
As I recall, slide rules are a 17th-century invention, with earlier roots, so it shouldn't physically difficult. Accuracy might be harder.
Gliders would follow from Leonardo, and maybe hot-air balloons - the biggest problem with balloons might be getting the amount of fabric needed.

#187 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: February 08, 2018, 09:22 PM:

There's a fellow on YT doing experiments in "primitive technology", which in practice means starting with no outside materials or tools. He's in northern Australia, and working with a piece of land which does have clay deposits and wood, so it turns out that fire is easy and ceramics aren't difficult. Edged tools of various sorts are straightforward too, though he apparently lacks a supply of anything knappable, so he has to grind edges.

It's that lack of supply that looks to be the next major limit: really, you have to at least have metal ores, or the metals themselves. And you need fuel beyond wood. Charcoal isn't too hard to make (though it requires a high level of supervision), but it presupposes a steady supply of wood, and the latter was becoming a limiting factor in late medieval times. Coppicing can get you only so far.

Water power was known, of course, and that's where you can get the biggest leverage: making cloth. Spinning jennies, water frames, and power looms are easily within the scope of late medieval technology.

#188 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 12:26 AM:

I think I'd do better leveraging my school skills than figuring out which steps to start with to get space travel going. I can write, I can do math, I can explain experimental design-- someone else can do the smelting after I spread the knowledge around. Or, for that matter, I could commission circular knitting needles and start the magic loop off earlier.

Can you tell that I am descended from teachers?

#189 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 07:36 AM:

Steve C. #183: At least three items on your list would tend to regularly "eat" experimenters. Especially with dubious metals and other materials.

Diatryma #188: For that matter, Arabic numbers and positional notation would be major, anyplace that doesn't have them already.

And in non-material stuff, what about morality as social technology? I know too little of the actual history of such things... but surely since the Golden Rule, we've figured out something beyond local versions of "obey these power structures and taboos".

#190 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 11:06 AM:

Dave Harmon @189--

I'm glad you brought this up. Few people now realize how many early experimenters lost their lives to carnivorous slide-rules.

Your modern, safety slide-rule is a relatively tame-looking affair. But that took generations of domestication.
And the slow process of making slide-rules safe for human usage costs the lives of some brave men and women.

Of course there are always the bravados who say that we should bring back the early brutes. They call the new slide-rules effete, complain that they were weakened by refinement, or make rude jokes about OSHA regulations.

Well, I say: let them try. Put them in a lab with one of those original slide-rules, and they wouldn't last a round. It would be nothing but smashed test-tubes and a pile of bones.

No thank you! I'm grateful for today's safe, convenient, well-regulated slide rule. It has been decades since the last rogue slide-rules attacked and devoured a human being, and I for one do not want to go back.

#191 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 11:17 AM:

oldster #190: LOL!

#192 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 11:31 AM:

Dave Harmon@191--

Oh dear. Now I'm worried that I misunderstood you. Not slide-rules?

Ah! You meant phonographs!

Well, yes. I mean: of course. In the Eocene era, when megafauna still roamed the steppe, the saber-toothed phonograph was more or less the apex predator.

When we see the tiny, almost microscopic stylus on today's phonograph, it's easy to forget that its prehistoric ancestors sported a stylus over 20cm long, with horrible serrations near the tip. But then again, the discs of that era were much larger as well--what geologists refer to as "tectonic platters".

Dangerous indeed!

#193 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 11:47 AM:

Diatryma @ #188, Dave Harmon @ #189:

I suppose another problem, at least in some countries, would be language change (Stargard, once he figures out he’s gone back in time, is incredibly grateful he’s a Pole in Poland (or the territory that is currently Poland) and not an Englishman facing the prospect of making himself intelligible to Middle-English speakers.) Even being able to read and write would be of limited value if the standard form of handwriting is different, or the rule is that anything worth writing down is worth translating into Latin.

#194 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 12:07 PM:

Also, Frankowski (via his Gary Stu Conrad Stargard) knows somewhat less than he thinks he does. Several of his retro-innovations wouldn't work. At one point, he sets up a counter-current system to process fleeces efficiently, cleaning them in preparation for carding and weaving the wool. Okay in principle, and counter-current systems are one of those things that require no novel tech, just someone with the bright idea. But his logic goes: soap is a mixture of fat and ashes/lye, and the fleeces are already full of fat/oil, so all I need to do is to cook the fleeces with a boiling lye solution. Lots of time and labor saved, ha! My own innovation!

Unfortunately, soap is the product of a chemical reaction between lye and fat/oil. Cooking hair in a boiling lye solution will tend to dissolve it.

#195 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 01:02 PM:

Dave Harmon @189: And in non-material stuff, what about morality as social technology? I know too little of the actual history of such things... but surely since the Golden Rule, we've figured out something beyond local versions of "obey these power structures and taboos".

Sounds like a good way to get yourself burned as a heretic if you're not really careful about what you say and how you say it.

#196 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 01:36 PM:

193
Even being able to read and write would be of limited value if the standard form of handwriting is different

It's remarkable difficult to read even 16th-century English handwriting. (I have images of a number of documents from that century. Genealogy....) reading your own wouldn't be difficult, and others might find yours easier, but odd in style, but even the official style used by clerks and secretaries can be a pain.

#197 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 04:56 PM:

I haven't been here in a while. Too busy with political Twitter, political Facebook, and lying in bed wondering why I should even try to get up.

Not going to get into the thing about "cool because he's a dwarf." If you say "Dwarves are cool," you're risking species fetishization; if you say "dwarfs are cool," you're risking disability fetishization. Neither is a good look for non-disabled humans.

abi 1: If you can't feel love and support beaming at you from over here, let me know and I'll beam harder.

I really need to chant the Green Tara chant more, for myself and others.

P J Evans 9ff: Love and support for you as well, if welcome.

B. Holder (actually Kerstin) 18: So sorry for your loss, and ours.

KeithS 58: Your posting of the link to the BHBoD reminded me that, while I've long since calculated the weights for European-style baking for that recipe (and GODS is it quicker!), I've never posted them here. Here's the whole recipe in one piece (I've made some changes).

Black Hole Brownies
2 Sticks Butter 230g
3 Cups Sugar 635g
2 Teaspoons Vanilla Extract ~10 mL
4 Eggs (better get Large or Jumbo)
1.5 Cups unsweetened cocoa (not Dutch process or “special dark”) 200g
3/4 Cup Rice Flour (finest grind you can find) 150g
1/4 Cup Cornstarch 45g
1/2 Teaspoon Baking Powder 2.5 mL
1/4 Teaspoon Salt 1.2 mL
1 Bag Ghirardelli's 60% Cacao Bittersweet Chocolate Chips 283g

  1. Heat oven to 350.
  2. Grease 13X9X2 baking pan. (I use butter for this.)
  3. Put the Butter in a large microwave-safe bowl. Microwave on HIGH until melted (about 2 min).
  4. Stir in the Sugar and Vanilla.*
  5. Add Eggs, one at a time, beating well with a spoon after each addition.
  6. Add Cocoa, and stir slowly until it's all wet, then beat until it's well blended. (Warning: this is a LOT of cocoa. It will take some time to mix, but don't go fast, at least at first: it will puff all over your kitchen and you, putting you at risk for inhalation theobromosis. Cocoa belongs in the mouth, not the lungs.)
  7. In another bowl, mix together the Rice Flour, Cornstarch, Baking Powder, and Salt. Add them to the chockiechockiegoodnessyum, and beat well.
  8. Mix in the Chocolate Chips.
  9. Pour it into the pan, and smooth the top as much as you can.
  10. Bake 25 minutes. If the brownies are even just beginning to pull away from the sides of the pan, take 'em out. If they aren't, give 'em another 5 min. If you overbake them, they won't be ooeygooey enough.
  11. Cool thoroughly at room temperature. These brownies don't hold together well--at all, actually, but especially if you try to cut them while the chocolate is still melted. I don't need to tell YOU not to put them in the refrigerator, do I? I thought not.
  12. Just before cutting them, dust the top with cocoa powder. I use one of those little teaspoon tea spoons (you know, the kind you use for making a single cup from loose tea); it makes it easy to get just the right amount.

The rest goes without saying. Scarf 'em.

* At this point I usually taste it to make sure it's OK. Vanillasugarbutter, yum! Just don't get caught.


The Girl From Ankyra 95: So glad to see you delurk! We met, I believe, in Helsinki. Good to see you here!

Jacque 120: I've also heard a related comment wrt SCA: you see people cosplaying nobles, but rarely the peasantry.

To be fair, the SCA is self-consciously a "good parts" recreation: no plague, no lice, no pogroms, no blood feud, no Spanish Inquisition (bet you weren't expecting that); and on the other hand regular baths, indoor plumbing, and modern food-protection standards.

The nobility got all the "good parts" of the Middle Ages. The peasants got grinding poverty, oppressive overlords, and early death.

All that said, though, I have seen a person or two play a peasant character. One of them was juggling "plague rats."

oldster 190: You are precious to me, above rubies.

All the time-travel posts: My fantasies have been simpler. Wander through 15th-Century America giving everyone cowpox, and possibly even start a cult where "receiving" cowpox is a rite of passage. Give the Aztecs the wheel a couple of centuries before the Spaniards arrive.

Higher tech: give muskets to the people who had to live near the Puritans. Warn them not to help them, and to keep wampum strictly out of their hands.

At the highest tech level, arm the Pequot with AK-47s, and tell them they're to train on them, but keep them for use when the white devils come to kill them.

#198 ::: Incoherent ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 05:01 PM:

193, 196

Also having to deal with the different writing technologies, depending on how far back. How many people can write legibly with a quill pen, let alone season and cut one? The differences in writing instruments, surfaces (hand-made paper, parchment, birch bark, if any even available), and inks might be a major obstacle.

#199 ::: Incoherent ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 05:14 PM:

Xopher at 197:

Wander through 15th-Century America giving everyone cowpox

That would help, but would it be enough in the long run? My understanding is that while smallpox was the worst scourge in terms of epidemics, there were plenty of others. Measles, mumps, diphtheria, et al. are also killers and hit the native population pretty hard.

OTOH, part of the problem was the synergy of epidemic after epidemic sapping resources until the structure of their societies collapsed, so taking out one of the biggest killers might make just enough difference.

Tisquantum (the Pilgrims' "Squanto") knew about muskets and the danger of Europeans -- he'd been to England as a kidnapped slave. His problem was that by the time he got back home almost everyone he knew was dead of serial epidemics...

#200 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 05:49 PM:

I am handwaving language the same way we are handwaving 'landing in oldtimey Europe where there are people and not wolves, also not in the middle of the ocean'.

#201 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 07:28 PM:

Plague wasn't typical of the whole middle ages. It was bad enough to shock people

#202 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 07:40 PM:

Xopher on the black hole brownies @197: do you really preheat the oven to 350C, or have you slipped back into English (Fahrenheit) measurement for a moment?

#203 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 07:50 PM:

197
Good wishes accepted with many thanks!

(The next three weeks may be the worst part of this - it's the last cycle, and the side-effects haven't improved with time. muttermuttermutter)

#204 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 10:08 PM:

Giants still roam the earth. I have an eight-foot slide rule in the living room.

#205 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 09, 2018, 11:34 PM:

Tom 202: Damn, cross-linked with my recipe for Death Brownies with Cadmium Chips!

No, I meant 350F (325 if using dark or non-stick pans). That's 177/163C.

These days I use a nonstick pan AND grease it with butter AND put parchment paper over that AND grease the parchment paper. I can get the whole batch out in a solid chunk if I need to...unless I underbake them.

#206 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 01:35 AM:

When I make the Black Hole Brownies of Death, I borrow a trick from a Maida Heatter recipe, the BHBoD's predecessor as my go-to brownie: I mold some aluminum foil to the outside of the pan, and then turn the pan over and mold the foil further to its inside. Then I put a pat of butter in it, and put the pan in the oven when it's starting to preheat. When the butter is melted, I then spread it around on the foil with paper towels. (Heatter says a pastry brush, but I don't own one of those.) That makes it pretty easy to get the brownies out of the pan.

When I give people the recipe, I make a note at the end that the batter will be very thick, almost more a dough than a batter, and will need to be scraped out of the bowl with a spatula and then spread out by hand. ("This is normal.")

#207 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 01:50 AM:

Xopher Halftongue @ 197:

Food science question. What's the reason you use rice flour and corn starch in your Black Hole Brownies of Death, rather than wheat flour? I have a basic idea of how wheat flour and corn starch work, but rice flour not so much.

#208 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 02:11 AM:

KeithS 207: Originally, because friends of mine were wheat allergic or had celiac disease. Then I discovered that the texture of the brownies was much improved by using that substitution (they are more melt-in-your-mouthy now).

The lack of gluten does make them fall apart more easily, but I think it's worth it.

Now I have even more friends with a wheat or gluten intolerance of one kind or another, so I'm not tempted to switch back.

#209 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 02:15 AM:

Xopher Halftongue @ 208:

Thanks! The texture and flavor of the brownies was great, so I'm not tempted to switch back either.

#210 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 03:26 AM:

Xopher Halftongue @ #197: Give the Aztecs the wheel a couple of centuries before the Spaniards arrive.

I remember seeing it suggested once that the wheel may have failed to take off among the Aztecs because the conditions weren't right for wheeled vehicles to be useful, though I forget the details. A lack of suitable draft animals, I think, later compounded by roads that wheeled vehicles would have struggled on because they weren't a factor considered in the design.

#211 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 09:45 AM:

KipW@204

In the same chambers where you sleep? Well, I admire your sangfroid, at any rate.

I hope you have it suitably restrained. If it should get loose, it might do incalculable damage.

#212 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 12:10 PM:

P J Evans @ 203 - Best wishes with that, and try to hold to the knowledge that it is the last round.

#213 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 02:14 PM:

Along with a sample wheeled chariot, you give the Aztecs fifty feet of sample road . . .

#214 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 02:40 PM:

Xopher Halftongue @197 - If you want people to make themselves ill in order to provide magical protection in the future from people who look like, well, yourself, I think you'd need first to get a reputation as a wise shaman / celebrity.

I think that you, personally, would have an edge in central America. "Here, let me show you what else you can do with that xocolatl stuff..." Though I don't know how well it would work with the sweeteners available, in a warm climate.

#215 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 10, 2018, 03:49 PM:

Joel Polowin @214: Agave syrup should work quite well as a sweetener for xocolatl, and was definitely available. And it's also a major source for making tequila -- don't know how early that was developed!

#216 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2018, 12:54 AM:

Xopher - Would the BHBoD work ok with wheat flour instead? (And wow, that IS a lot of cocoa!)

#217 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2018, 12:58 AM:

(Oh, sorry - when I posted that a bunch of other posts appeared that had apparently been lurking in the background just waiting, like slide rules or other devious instruments, so mine's redundant.)

#218 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2018, 01:18 AM:

Once or twice I have made them with a cup of regular wheat flour instead of the rice flour + corn starch, and yes, it works fine. I actually don't think there's much to choose from in terms of taste and texture.

#219 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2018, 02:58 PM:

Hmm. There are varying opinions about texture between the glutenous and gluten-free versions, but the one I haven't heard is that the wheat flour one is better. I never make these just for myself, and most of the places I take them have at least one or two people who are avoiding gluten for one reason or another...and in my experience such people are often quite starved for yummy baked goods.

But let's talk about what we mean by 'wheat flour'. We certainly don't mean whole wheat flour (if you decide to try this recipe with whole wheat flour, change your mind and don't). All-purpose flour is fine. Bread flour will be tough and chewy. Pastry flour will probably give you a texture closer to the gluten-free version (if, like me, you believe there's a difference).

I must say that I had no idea so many Fluorospherians (SOOOO tempting to misspell that in this context) were making this recipe! It's gratifying.

#220 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2018, 04:22 PM:

My mom's brownies, which of course means they are the best, are chocolatey and chewy. To get just the right level of chewiness you need gluten. I have a mind to try Xopher's recipe anyway. I'm pretty sure they will be the best ever brownies that are not like my mom's.

#221 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 11, 2018, 08:53 PM:

Yes, mine are gooey rather than chewy. Can't think of a way to keep them GF while making them chewy. I'm not experienced with additives like Xanthan gum (not that I want to support that pig Piers Anthony's private fief anyway).

#222 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 12:20 AM:

We all knew this was true, but it's different when it's stated under oath, in a deposition:

Aetna's medical director admits he never reviewed medical records when denying claims. I'm told that this was in a case where he was trying to get out of a claim of medical malpractice around a denial; he is an MD, so he's getting a lot of flak from other MDs. There will be interesting fallout from this.

#223 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 12:30 AM:

I suppose him dying of a curable but expensive disease after his insurer denies his claim is too much to hope for.

#224 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 03:54 AM:

Xopher Halftounge @ #221:

Might be worth giving tapioca flour a go, should you feel like experimenting. While I am far from proficient in its use, things I've had with tapioca flour has a chew that is similar to that of well-kneaded, well-stretched, high-gluten wheat dough.

#225 ::: Tim May ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 09:37 AM:

Xopher Halftongue @ #197, Paul A. @ #210: Some Mesoamerican cultures famously did have the wheel, insofar as they produced wheeled ceramic animal figurines (toys, or perhaps ritual items), but never used it for practical purposes (that we know of).
Tula, and wheeled animal effigies in Mesoamerica

There are no draught animals in precolumbian Mesoamerica, so that rules out carts and chariots unless you're also planning to import livestock to pull them. The wheelbarrow seems possible, though; in Eurasia it wasn't invented for centuries after animal-drawn wheeled vehicles, so the idea is not obvious, and something like the Chinese wheelbarrow could in principle be very useful for overland transport. However, the rugged topography of the region would tend to limit its usefulness.

Another problem is the manufacture of the wheels themselves. I don't know of anyone in precolumbian Mesoamerica having metal carpentry tools, and precise joinery is very difficult with only stone tools. Producing a wheel and axle to an adequate level of precision might not be impossible, but it would be a lot of work. (There was metallurgy going on in Mesoamerica at the time we're talking about, though it was a relatively recent technology and focussed more on the decorative properties of metals. Possibly one could seek out copper smelters and teach them to make bronzes suitable for better chisels &c.)

#226 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 12:48 PM:

oldster @190:Few people now realize how many early experimenters lost their lives to carnivorous slide-rules.

*Snerk.*

I'm given to understand that a metal slide rule can actually do double duty as a projectile weapon. And, in the right circumstances, makes a dandy truncheon (over the back of the neck, after the briefcause-full of math books to the belly has doubled your  bully  victim over for you.)

& @211: ::headdesk::

#227 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 02:08 PM:

Jacque, Xopher, others--

Thank you! I am moved. And alarmed at how much your appreciative responses mean to me. You should be, too.

I am alarmed because it tells me what a lonely old shut-in I have become.

You should be alarmed because of what is likely to happen if you encourage that sort of behavior.

#228 ::: Andrew Plotkin ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 04:03 PM:

I tweeted this last night but didn't see much response, so I'm reposting it here. Because you people appreciate Art.

-------

Euclid alone has looked on Beauty's butt;
he liked it, and he cannot tell a lie
nor Plato tell the truth. They can't deny
that you could pose a question asking what

the one would answer if you asked the other
(or maybe it's the other way around).
You pick the door through which the Truth is found;
or slam and bolt it to prevent another

from finding Her, and thereby getting sprung
from Darkness. For Euclid alone -- say what?
okay, and Newton too -- have seen that butt
to which the Voice of Truth hath given tongue.

Oh, my God beckons us to look and see
what Beauty is if Beauty could but be.

-------

#229 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 05:04 PM:

Has anyone else seen that The Atlantic website has eliminated comments on their posts?

They're replacing it with The Atlantic Letters section.

I think this might start becoming more common, and I'm sort of on the fence about it. I can certainly see that taking care of comments can be troublesome. But I've also liked seeing some of what was out there, in order to gauge public reaction.

Thoughts? I'm still reading The Atlantic site, but it feels incomplete now. Is doing a letters section a forlorn attempt to graft something from old school journalism into a realm where it doesn't quite fit?

#230 ::: Tom Whitmore sees possible spam ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 06:48 PM:

If that's not spam (nothing in VAB, no similar name around here that I remember, name goes to a .pt website), then I apologize -- but I thought it was worth marking.

#231 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 07:23 PM:

231
It's one of the newer spambot types - it copies a legit comment so as to look innocent.
(That's abi's comment at 1.)

#232 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 08:26 PM:

Andrew 228: Nicely done!

P J 232: Yep. Fairly idiotic, to copy the first comment (that is, the one most likely to have been read by everyone). But I have no doubt that your assessment is correct.

#233 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 12, 2018, 09:30 PM:

233
I've seen a lot of it on sites that use Disqus, where the comments tend to be most-recent-first, and after a couple of hundred have shown up, it's harder to spot the 'bots. (But comment history is a clue: they don't have many, and if they've been to several sites, one is usually a gamer's site.)

And that was indeed a nice bit of poetry.

#234 ::: Idumea Arbacoochee, Gardener of Threads ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 08:21 AM:

It was spam; the IP address matched some other recent comments (all flagged, thanks). They have all been sausaged.

#235 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 09:24 AM:

Brilliant sonnet!

#236 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 10:19 AM:

Andrew @228--

Thanks for Art! We needed more sonnets around these parts.

#237 ::: Andrew Plotkin ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 12:54 PM:

Thank you all. Rough week, needed some appreciation.

#238 ::: nerdycellist ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 02:41 PM:

Hey all –

I haven’t posted much recently, but I have an issue that I wonder if Fluorospherians with more emotional intelligence than I can help me with.

Last May my roommate (this is an inadequate term – we are more like BFFs/sisters/hetero-lifemates) was laid off from her job of 15 years due to short-sighted corporate budget cuts. Due to her highly specific profession, the subsequent job search has been… fraught. She has interviewed and turned down two positions that were very much not right for her, and has a few prospects that are much closer to what she’s looking for, and are the types of “dream job” opportunities that she would have applied for even if she were still working. She is also dealing with figuring out Medi-Cal, if only to continue her maintenance meds, looking to start a grant writing/non-profit management course paid for by unemployment, and eagerly awaiting her tax refund. It seems like every week is up or down – a recruiter headhunted her for a fantastic job that may just be a little out of her reach (what a compliment!) YAY! The response to the follow-up on the Dream Job sounds alarmingly tepid – BOO! She was given a decent severance package she has yet to dip into, but would understandably not like to touch that unless she has to. But what if she has to? She is very Type-A and I am… whatever the opposite is, except -

The issue at hand is not above, it’s the fact that I’ve always absorbed people’s moods and emotions. I can’t help it. And I feel terrible for complaining about it; after all, I’m the one with the job (against all odds), the continued regular paycheck, etc. I’m trying to be supportive but it’s becoming harder to separate my own self-concern (if she moves out of state, how am I going to afford 1st/last/deposit on a new place? And I don’t have any living room furniture of my own! Plus my industry’s slowly dying and what if I get laid off?) with the freaking out I feel has somehow been outsourced by a third party from her to me. I know my being upset is not going to leach off any of her worries, but how do I stop it? How can I protect myself while being a supportive friend to her? Advice very much welcome!

#239 ::: nerdycellist ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 03:49 PM:

And here are some of the things that complicate this further –

Looking back I’ve had a pretty exciting year. I’m singing with a fantastic women’s chorus, I even got a solo, we got a super-secret recording gig I still can’t divulge due to an iron-clad NDA, I may be joining a few others singing backup at the concert of a huge artist in a couple of weeks, we’ll be going to Vancouver in May (YAY!)… also, I was diagnosed with diabetes (BOO) and lost about 40 lbs (meh)… but I don’t feel like I can get excited about all this stuff because the roommate always has a “… must be nice to have money to travel” or “… well I guess if I get [medical condition] I’ll probably die because I don’t have insurance” kind of rejoinder. I can’t fault her for being an Eeyore (lord knows in her place I’d be the most Eeyore-est of them all) but then I feel like I should be able to celebrate, and also, that I’m a jerk for being resentful.

I still work at the same company that laid her off – albeit a completely different division. So every time I bring home an issue from work, it’s always “well, at least you still have a job”, followed by “you know they’re just going to fire you soon anyway”. Which, maybe.

And the last… and this is petty… that when she talks about prospective pay-scales in the non-profit sector (which she recognizes is going to require adjustment on her part) the constant comparison – “they want someone with a Master’s degree, and they’re paying less than you, a high school graduate, make.”

And yes, all of this stuff immediately irritates me, quickly followed by a whole bunch of guilt that I’m irritated in the first place.

#240 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 04:17 PM:

I don't have any advice, but wow, you are in no way petty for being unhappy with any of those things she's saying.

#241 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 05:49 PM:

238/239
If she were willing to dip into her severance, I'd advise her to get help, because that sure sounds like depression talking. (Antidepressants can hep - but finding the one that works is hit-and-miss.)

(And sympathy on the diabetes: I found out a year ago, and have lost 25 to 30 pounds - depending on which week it is.)

#242 ::: nerdycellist ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 06:21 PM:

As someone who has been depressed (had a bipolar dx back in 8th grade which I am assuming I no longer have) I agree. However - she has general medical anxiety and the last trip she took to a therapist for that did not end well (type A - can’t tell her anything). With the expenses associated with the meds she’s already on and the amount of hoops you have to jump through in this country for mental health care, I can’t imagine such a suggestion would go over well.

I don’t know what to tell her because she’s doing everything right, but at a certain level it’s harder to find a job. At the same time, I get frustrated with her inability to see how damn lucky she’s been up until last year. Into every life a little suck must fall – most of us get used to a moderate amount throughout, but she had nothing but an upward trajectory and now is not used to dealing with disappointment.

As far as the DIABEETUS, my doc had to modify her instructions for the stabbing and glucose monitoring when I came to a follow-up appointment with a handwritten spreadsheet and two graphs in a moleskine. I guess I get a little OCD. It is for that reason I don't own a scale, so I have no idea what my weight is from day to day. I have an appointment roughly every four months; they'll let me know then. Otherwise, I go by what percentage of my paycheck I'm spending on clothes that fit me. As a fat person from a long line of fat people, may I just say that this "weight loss" crap is overrated. And also, I'd love to just inhale three pounds of garlic mashed potatoes right now.

#243 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 13, 2018, 06:42 PM:

I may have been unusually lucky, as my primary-care guy prescribed for me, and didn't require therapy. (Clinical depression, pretty bad then, and it's been much better since, especially since I retired. I didn't know how much stress that job produced until it wasn't there any more. *g* The antidepressant also fixed the dermatitis I had at the time - and that's going to be my marker for "need meds".)

The housing anxiety I understand, also, as at some point I'm going to have to find a bigger place with a roommate, and I'm not able to afford more than I'm already paying (and would like to pay less).

#244 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 06:37 AM:

nerdycellist, sympathies.

Since this is a long time BFF, it seems to me you might be able to address it directly. Some time when you're not stressed, can you tell her that you're seeing a pattern. That you don't want to rub it in her face that some things are going well for you when she's unhappy about her job situation, but you're becoming reluctant to talk to her about anything in your life because she has a negative jab for everything? See how it looks to her. Maybe she hasn't noticed, maybe there's some particular thing that you're doing/saying that grates and you don't know it. But this doesn't sound like a way to go on.

In terms of your own worries about housing, your job, etc., I'd probably follow the "Comfort in, dump out" principle. Vent about that to us but not to her.

But this one "they want someone with a Master’s degree, and they’re paying less than you, a high school graduate, make." seems like it warrants a Carolyn Hax "Wow" response.

#245 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 09:28 AM:

oldster @ 227 ...
Thank you! I am moved. And alarmed at how much your appreciative responses mean to me. You should be, too.

I am alarmed because it tells me what a lonely old shut-in I have become.

I think you just said:

"I'm alarmed at how much broader my community seems to have become -- it's reaching around the world!"

... but perhaps I'm odd in considering interactive online communities to be just as real and vital as those offline.

#246 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 11:39 AM:

xeger @245--

Thanks. It is nice to think that ML functions as extended community, and I think it does for many people. For some, it is an extension of IRL friendships.

I have always felt amply, generously welcomed here, both under this 'nym and under a previous, and I have no complaints to bring against the site.

I suspect that for people like me, community that involves face-to-face interaction is necessary for full emotional health, and this sort of online interaction is not sufficient on its own.

But I'm not going to tell other people what works for them. And I certainly am grateful for the kindness and friendship that I have found here.

(As well as the outbreaks of poetry, recipe-sharing, hymn-composition, and general silliness.)

#247 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 12:17 PM:

Em @39: As noted in the Olympic ceremonies, the white tiger is an important figure in Korean folklore.

#248 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 12:34 PM:

albatross @ 165: One big obvious reason to want to stay in the past as a time traveler is that you have knowledge nobody else has is what I meant by the Connecticut Yankee syndrome; people don't realize how entangled most tech is, such that reproducing it early is unlikely to be easy. (ISTM that authors may be especially subject to this syndrome; even the well-read ones may not get out enough to see the limits of book learning.) de Camp was moderately convincing in Lest Darkness Fall, but a lot of his examples were more subtle and/or less hardware-dependent (as Nancy@178 notes).
@170 -- I haven't looked in detail at 1632, partly because I don't think much of either author or publisher and partly because it struck me as implausible. I note that your description makes it a counterexample to @165, i.e. the makers are stuck but the former big frog also dominates the new pond. I wonder whether that is any more realistic, or whether the cues that say "Trust me!" are also too time/culture-variant to be transplantable.(Dave Harmon @ 174 is a further step; I'm thinking about whether basic persuasion would work at all.)

Jacque @ 182: oh yes -- I hadn't thought about plastic at all. That line from The Graduate was truer than Nichols intended it to be.

Tom W @ 185: how well does electrolysis work without a dash of strong acid? My chemistry work is too far back to be sure, but I doubt vinegar would answer.

Xopher @ 197: Wander through 15th-Century America giving everyone cowpox A late friend argued similarly in a uchronia involving Japanese refugees (from one of the our-world--failed Mongol invasions) settling San Francisco Bay -- although more brutally (the survivors of the 1200CE pandemic are no pushovers for 1500CE Europeans). incoherent@199 is correct that more would be needed -- e.g., it was some other disease that let Pizarro's 23(?) conquer the Inca.

Andrew Plotkin @ 228: Great!

It's only a few hours from when my Boskone work kicks into high gear; I'd ask about a Gathering of Light, but I'm unlikely to be able to follow up as I tend to be less-than-coherent by Friday evening. I really need to keep up better here; somehow I've let trivialities fill up almost all of the time I gained by retiring.

#249 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 12:39 PM:

oldster @246
For me, online community has some benefits in bringing me into contact with people I would never meet IRL for logistical reasons. In that category I count ML as well as a private Catholic mom's group that's been operating for almost 20 years now, where I've met two of the other members in person one time each and never met the other three, but I know more about their joys and sorrows than I do many people I see daily or weekly.

But I also find face-to-face community important and not the same. It's more rewarding in some ways (open to more in-depth involvement in each others' lives, e.g. taking meals when someone is sick) and more frustrating in others (it's not asynchronous, so it's harder to step away or mute someone if I'm tired of hearing their take on a particular issue).

FWIW, I also enjoyed the post the others commented on, and like seeing your nym pop up on ML even when your posts don't involve the domestication of the slide-rule.

#250 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 02:17 PM:

nerdycellist @238: I see two separate (but related) questions here:

  1. How do I maintain my emotional equilibrium while roommate fences with Life Challenges?
  2. How do I manage my own options/resources to prepare for possible futures?

Fortunately, I think the first item can be dealt with by dealing with the second.

I just ran across a neat technique that sounds like it might apply: Tim Ferriss's Fear Setting. (The meat is about a third of the way down the page, in the "Q&A: Questions & Actions" section.) The focus is a little different than what you're facing, being pitched more toward making choices about possible paths. But I think it could be easily tuned to: "What do I do if roommate does X? Y? Z?"

The TL;DR of the technique is basically: write down all of your worries in as much specific detail as you can, and then systematically go through and work out the "what if—if then" contingency plans for each one. This basically,

  1. Drains the worries out of your brain onto paper, and
  2. Gives your brain an "Oh, right, then we'll..." response when worries pop up.

(Obvy, if your brain comes up with any new ones, you just add them to the list and then game them out.)

& @239: I’m a jerk for being resentful.

Well, to be fair, your roommate is being kind of a jerk for raining on your parade. Understandably so, perhaps, but nevertheless. (I mean, seriously, how would you not having these resources/successes help her? Really? It wouldn't, because the household would then be in much more straightened circumstances. Maybe best not to actually point this out to her, but maybe keep it in reserve in your own mind, and respond to her 'plaints with a sympathetic (sounding), "Yes, dear. I'm sorry you're struggling. I know it's hard."

Or maybe drag it out into the open: "I understand your pain, but you know being a jerk to me is not helping anyone, and is just making me resentful of you, right? So maybe stop doing that?"

& @242: my doc had to modify her instructions for the stabbing and glucose monitoring when I came to a follow-up appointment with a handwritten spreadsheet and two graphs in a moleskine.

::applause::

No, you're not OCD, you're just getting your geek on. XD

(This from sombody whose optometrist admired my daily tracking of digestive behavior, meds, & optical pressures in five minute increments for several years back when I was having Dueling Health Issues, about twenty years ago.)

oldster @246: It is nice to think that ML functions as extended community, and I think it does for many people.

It for damn sure does for me, and I'm not bashful about saying so. For me, online generally, ML specifically, and RL fandom communities all kind of blend together into a background of community for me. (Which makes the whole #MeToo tidal wave all the more grating, because I'm realizing how much of my disinterest in doing conventions anymore stems from the bad behavior of many many of my male "friends." But that's another conversation.)

#251 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 02:22 PM:

One reason for wanting to live in the past is that you could place yourself well before the big disasters.

This might assume an almost stable timeline.

#252 ::: albatross ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 02:46 PM:

Nancy #251:

Or you could memorize the locations of important still-undiscovered resources and then "find" them and exploit them.

I've heard the term "catch-up growth" used in economics discussions--the idea is that if you're China in 1980 and you've decided to try to modernize your economy, you can go a lot faster doing that than, say, Japan. In 1980, Japan was pretty close to the cutting edge of technology and economic development, so improving their factories and power infrastructure and stuff was really hard--they have to have done new stuff. China in 1980 could mostly copy what'd been done by other countries, and they could hire experts from those countries, or send students to study in those countries, to make sure they knew how. That meant that China could improve a lot faster in 1980 than Japan or the US could.

That's the advantage you have as a time traveler. You may not know every detail of how railroads, telegraphs, steam engines, airships, gaslights, etc., work, but you know all those things are possible. With even a little bit of expertise in the details of making them, you can probably speed your economic development up a lot, because you don't have to blunder down a bunch of blind alleys.

The first obstacle to doing this is that you arrive without any wealth or power. It would be easy to find yourself as a slave or a beggar or a bandit, where all your uptime knowledge is useless. Or you're seen as a madman and ignored, or as a witch and shunned or burned. You have to survive, and then accumulate serious resources and power. (And in most places, doing that as an obvious funny-looking foreigner with a weird accent and strange habits won't be so easy, and may very well attract the attention of local top predators you will have to buy off.)

Assuming you overcome that obstacle, the second obstacle is that each technological step is made easier by having previous steps' products available. China could buy machine tools from wealthier nations to do its catch-up growth, but you have to figure out how to have a blacksmith make them from materials you can find in 1600s Germany or 3500 BC Nantucket or the late Roman Empire or whatever.

I guess a time traveler should spend a lot of time studying up on technology with relatively short chains of products needed between his target time's products and later ones. Inventing the stirrup or better ploughs or better harnesses that don't choke horses, those all can happen without inventing a machine-tools industry and a steel industry. The germ theory of disease will pay off long before you get around to producing antibiotics. (Start accumulating wealth by making good stills and selling very strong alcohol; now you've got both a revenue source and a disinfectant. Unfortunately, you're also the foreigner who's visibly responsible for the 500 AD version of the opiod crisis, so you may not be super popular.)

I suppose the third obstacle, if you're really determined to change history, is how you prevent all your changes evaporating after you die. Thousands of years later, archaeologists marvel at your clever steam engine toy or mechanical astronomy computer that they found rusting in some ruins somewhere.

#253 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 03:09 PM:

albatross @252: you arrive without any wealth or power.

Well, that depends to some extent on your time travel conceit.

In Door into Summer, Heinlein had Davis, going from a future time when cheap transmutted gold was available in bulk, back to the '70s. All he took back was himself and a bunch of gold in the form of wire wrapped around his middle.

In the The Time Machine, Wells took his second trip forward, and carried some books with him.

Postulating the ability to carry cargo expands your options quite a bit.

Thousands of years later, archaeologists marvel at your clever steam engine toy or mechanical astronomy computer that they found rusting in some ruins somewhere.

I think more than one author has played around with the idea that Leonardo da Vinci was clearly a time traveler.

#254 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: February 14, 2018, 06:25 PM:

albatross @252: how you prevent all your changes evaporating after you die

I remember at Ada Palmer's history panel at Penguicon last year she talked about a side effect of the fall of Rome I'd never even thought about: the roads were no longer safe, so the flow of trade goods was greatly reduced, so technology regressed in many places. For example, what good is being a Welsh tinsmith if you can't get what you need to make tin?

#255 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2018, 06:20 AM:

Okay, that's weird. Go to ML's front page, and it's showing a post (about recovery from a crash) from 2008...?

That seems...either deliberate, or synchronistic?

#256 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2018, 11:49 AM:

I'm into a new phase. Where I had been reading at the gym during the hour I'm on the Futile Cycle and the Trudgemaster, I am now listening at the gym. The new storage card on my audio player is so darn big, I loaded hundreds of hours of radio shows (Gunsmoke, Marlowe, Johnny Dollar, Shep, ISIRTA, Hitchhiker, Lux, Lampoon, and anything by Welles seem to make up a lot of it).

I've enjoyed my recent reading of screenplays, Doc Savage books, and whatever else I could find, but I haven't enjoyed the days when the scale showed me gaining weight back that I'd been keeping off since they sawed out my gallbladder, and I noticed after a couple of days of audio narrative that I seem to be able to keep the heart rate higher and cover more phony miles when I'm not taking info in through my eyeballs.

It took a couple of days to get used to not reading. It helps to not turn my tablet on at all, obviously, but then I start looking at the screens at the front of the gym. Closing my eyes works for that, at least often enough to break the spell. Even with that, I ended up comprehending the last half of some drama about agents (FBI, I guess) getting the last laugh on a mad bomber who killed six redshirts under our hero's command in the backstory. I almost looked at the guide to see what series it was when I got home, but then realized I didn't really care.

#257 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2018, 11:50 AM:

I'm into a new phase. Where I had been reading at the gym during the hour I'm on the Futile Cycle and the Trudgemaster, I am now listening at the gym. The new storage card on my audio player is so darn big, I loaded hundreds of hours of radio shows (Gunsmoke, Marlowe, Johnny Dollar, Shep, ISIRTA, Hitchhiker, Lux, Lampoon, and anything by Welles seem to make up a lot of it).

I've enjoyed my recent reading of screenplays, Doc Savage books, and whatever else I could find, but I haven't enjoyed the days when the scale showed me gaining weight back that I'd been keeping off since they sawed out my gallbladder, and I noticed after a couple of days of audio narrative that I seem to be able to keep the heart rate higher and cover more phony miles when I'm not taking info in through my eyeballs.

It took a couple of days to get used to not reading. It helps to not turn my tablet on at all, obviously, but then I start looking at the screens at the front of the gym. Closing my eyes works for that, at least often enough to break the spell. Even with that, I ended up comprehending the last half of some drama about agents (FBI, I guess) getting the last laugh on a mad bomber who killed six redshirts under our hero's command in the backstory. I almost looked at the guide to see what series it was when I got home, but then realized I didn't really care.

#258 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2018, 12:34 PM:

After some trouble getting in yesterday, I see there are more troubles. Commenting here to see if this helps open up the front page to something more current than the Restoration Drama thread -- I can't help but believe that there's actually a software reason for that being where things went to!

#259 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2018, 03:08 PM:

I'm into a new phase. Where I had been reading at the gym during the hour I'm on the Futile Cycle and the Trudgemaster, I am now listening at the gym. The new storage card on my audio player is so darn big, I loaded hundreds of hours of radio shows (Gunsmoke, Marlowe, Johnny Dollar, Shep, ISIRTA, Hitchhiker, Lux, Lampoon, and anything by Welles seem to make up a lot of it).

I've enjoyed my recent reading of screenplays, Doc Savage books, and whatever else I could find, but I haven't enjoyed the days when the scale showed me gaining weight back that I'd been keeping off since they sawed out my gallbladder, and I noticed after a couple of days of audio narrative that I seem to be able to keep the heart rate higher and cover more phony miles when I'm not taking info in through my eyeballs.

It took a couple of days to get used to not reading. It helps to not turn my tablet on at all, obviously, but then I start looking at the screens at the front of the gym. Closing my eyes works for that, at least often enough to break the spell. Even with that, I ended up comprehending the last half of some drama about agents (FBI, I guess) getting the last laugh on a mad bomber who killed six redshirts under our hero's command in the backstory. I almost looked at the guide to see what series it was when I got home, but then realized I didn't really care.

#260 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 18, 2018, 10:30 PM:

What's happened to the front page? Anyone know?

#261 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2018, 08:37 AM:

Um, did a shoggoth get into the Making Light server?

Because I don't show any posts since February 14, and the top-level post on the home page is "May 04, 2008 - Restoration drama"

Is anyone there, or is this a ghost tab?

#262 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2018, 08:39 AM:

Ahah. After (and only after) I posted a message, I saw three or four messages on the same subject. Oddly, they didn't show up when I refreshed the tab; they only showed up after I posted. In case that helps someone with the de-bugging process.

#263 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2018, 04:17 PM:

Looks like that one posted after all, despite hours going by with no sign of it and an error message every time I hit Post. Live and learn.

New phase, yo.

#264 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2018, 05:08 PM:

I think Cassie B's explanation that it's "shoggoths" is the most plausible. (I've also been getting proxy errors from the $DAYJOB firewalls, but they like doing that at random anyway, and your browser caches them so they don't want to go away once they've been invited in.)

#265 ::: Emma in Sydney ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2018, 06:01 PM:

Driven out of lurking by the carnage on the front page, I'm sending best wishes for the recovering of the past 11 years of Making Light awesomeness.

#266 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: February 19, 2018, 07:18 PM:

Fortunately, it looks like it's just the front page that's broken. The inter-post links and View All By are still working just fine, meaning all the content is still right where it should be.

#267 ::: Tim May ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2018, 09:14 AM:

I believe this thread has lost a few of the most recent comments from before the crash.

Tweet from PNH about the server problem here.

#268 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2018, 10:05 PM:

Well -- if nothing else, it's certainly roused folks that haven't been seen in ages...

That said, I'm left wondering what the best way to report such mischance might be in the future, and how best to find out about what's happening, sans here.

#269 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 04:27 AM:

xeger @ #268:

Apparently, the server outage has been reported at least on Twitter (by pnh) and on File770 (by reference to pnh's tweet).

#270 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 06:22 AM:

Ingvar M @ 269 ...
Apparently, the server outage has been reported at least on Twitter (by pnh) and on File770 (by reference to pnh's tweet).

Indeed. I ask in part because I'd noticed the outage about 6h before pnh tweeted about it (presuming I have my time zone conversions right), but had no idea who to tell/how to tell.

#271 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 10:01 AM:

Outage: As they say, history doesn't repeat itself... but it rhymes. It is quite amusing that the broken front page is flashing back to a previous occasion of "server fall down go BOOM".

#272 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 11:38 AM:

My adventure last week was Frisbie bringing me a UPS he didn't need (had belonged to someone he knew who died - in 2004 - and the UPS was never used. After connecting it up, and leaving it beeping - because the battery pack (two small batteries connected) was dead - we went to lunch at a local southeast Asian place that he likes. Yellow curry soup, both with chicken and optional onions; he got egg noodles and I got rice noodles. Good soup, would get again (but the bowl was two servings for me; it reheated well).
And sometime before 8pm the battery pack stopped beeping, having charged up. We were both surprised, given the age of the battery pack. (I figured that even if it was completely dead and had to be replace, I wouldn't be worse off than before.)

#273 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 08:44 PM:

Somewhat to my surprise, my (mostly secondhand) knowledge suggests that UPSs are, across the board, Pretty Good Kit. (You know: the difference between real heavy-duty laser printers and home inkjets, or using a good wrench versus trying to do the job with a multitool.)

I'd kind of assumed that the sort you were likely to end up with if you just went out and bought a cheap one was going to be the same kind of garbage you get when you do that with a printer, but it seems not.

You may want to stress-test this one (unplug it or throw the breaker, see how long it actually runs whatever you're powering for) because it's possible the batteries are still kinda-sorta functional but top out at 10% capacity or something.

The legendary Dan Rutter offers advice on replacing or upgrading UPS batteries, too: http://www.dansdata.com/upsupgrade.htm

#274 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 08:47 PM:

(Though Dan's advice to put whatever bodged-together batteries you end up with on a tray full of baking soda is, in typical Dan fashion, both very practical and rather alarming.)

#275 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: February 21, 2018, 11:19 PM:

273
I was told the "lamp test" - plug two or three lamps in and see how long the battery pack lasts.

It's holding up pretty well so far - I mostly needed enough time to shut down, or to cover the second-or-so power glitches that are the Usual Problem and otherwise cause reboots (and sometimes resetting the clock on the microwave - all the others are battery-only except the computer).

#276 ::: tykewriter ::: (view all by) ::: February 22, 2018, 08:17 AM:

@255 et seq.: Re the Out(r)age: in the battle between the Gnomes and the Shoggoth(s), who is winning?
Come on you gno-omes!

#277 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 22, 2018, 11:17 AM:

tykewriter: I imagine the Gnomes are battling the Shoggoths in between all the other Life Challenges. As long as ML is still up, I count that as a win....

#278 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 22, 2018, 01:46 PM:

Speaking of life challenges, I just had a rather unpleasant night courtesy of a stomach virus. Just about 24 hours from calling in sick yesterday, I think I've made it to the stage where I can start convincing my stomach that food is a Thing again.

#279 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 23, 2018, 07:17 PM:

My partner suffers from recurring bouts of extreme nausea, and doesn't tolerate most of the modern antinauseants. She finds my ginger snaps helpful.

Ginger Snaps

Cream together:
· 1 c soft butter/margarine
· ½ c sugar
· ½ c brown sugar

Combine with above:
· ⅓ c molasses
· ⅔ c corn syrup

Combine with above:
· 4½ c flour
· 1 tsp ea baking soda, salt, cinnamon
· ½ tsp ground cloves
· 1-2 tbsp ground ginger, to taste

Knead until smooth. If needed, add more flour to get a moderately stiff dough. Chill until firm.

Roll out to less than ⅛ inch (2 mm) thick on greased cookie sheet (don't need to grease a silicone sheet). Bake about 8 minutes in preheated 350° oven until lightly browned. Watch carefully; the baking time depends strongly on dough thickness.

Some of you may have tried the paprika snaps that I brought to a couple of Minneapolis cons, some years back. Basically they're the same as above but use paprika instead of ginger. Optionally use hot paprika; optionally add a dash of cayenne. They're bright orange and don't seem all that hot at first.

#280 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 23, 2018, 11:12 PM:

My current issue seems to be pain after swallowing, or when hiccuping. This is a little below my sternum, which I'm parsing as "the top of my stomach".

#282 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 12:03 PM:

Xopher, the other day I got a viral-looking E-mail from an account that looks like it might be yours: your real_name, at stolarz.wroc.pl . It consisted of a general greeting and a presumably-dangerous link.

#283 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 12:56 PM:

I recommended this to Teresa and Patrick, so I realized that I should also mention it here: if you enjoyed Firesign Theater you should check out John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme, a BBC Radio 4 sketch comedy show. A bunch of it is currently available to stream and listen to for free and I find it very funny and fannish.

#284 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 04:06 PM:

OK, swallowing pain has gone away (along with associated catastrophizing ;-) ). Still adjusting to full meals, but I am so done with that virus!

#286 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 04:58 PM:

Joel, Xopher, everyone...

I have seen several instances of spam having a familiar user-part on the source, and a totally wrong domain-name.

The contents have been obviously wrong.

#287 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 05:09 PM:

Is there some way of extracting someone's E-mail address from ML's data? I don't know of any connection between Xopher's real name and my E-mail address. I don't think he and I have ever corresponded privately.

#288 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 06:59 PM:

Interesting about UPSs; I've never had one actually work in the least. But I've had... maybe two? maybe one? and then just gave up on the entire idea because clearly I had misunderstood something about it.

I have enjoyed playing Pokemon Go today, as many people are out and visibly being my people.

#289 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: February 24, 2018, 07:17 PM:

Joel Polowin @287:
At one point in the deep, dark past, it was available through the View All By link. I'm pretty sure that's how the first batch of spammers got my address.

#290 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 25, 2018, 03:43 PM:

Joel 282: Thanks for alerting me. Definitely not me. Not sure what to do about it.

Ibid., 287: Not that I recall either, but Chris@289 is right. And my old Yahoo email had my real name.

#291 ::: Clarentine ::: (view all by) ::: February 25, 2018, 07:42 PM:

David Goldfarb @115 - you have resolved a longstanding minor mystery for me. The two-volume series on my shelf by Eric Iverson has survived multiple moves and library downsizings because the writing is good...which was frustrating, because I could never find anything else he'd written. It seems I can now go make further acquaintance of Mr. Iverson/Turtledove. Thanks!

#292 ::: Clarentine ::: (view all by) ::: February 25, 2018, 07:42 PM:

David Goldfarb @115 - you have resolved a longstanding minor mystery for me. The two-volume series on my shelf by Eric Iverson has survived multiple moves and library downsizings because the writing is good...which was frustrating, because I could never find anything else he'd written. It seems I can now go make further acquaintance of Mr. Iverson/Turtledove. Thanks!

#293 ::: Clarentine ::: (view all by) ::: February 25, 2018, 07:44 PM:

(Sorry, didn't even get an error on that double post!)

#294 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: February 25, 2018, 11:52 PM:

Clarentine: In all honesty, I had forgotten (if I ever knew) that Harry Turtledove had published any books under the name Eric G. Iverson. You will find that he's been rather prolific under his own name! He has also published about half a dozen historical novels using the somewhat transparent pseudonym "H. N. Turteltaub".

#295 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: February 26, 2018, 12:47 PM:

@Kip W: I seem to be able to keep the heart rate higher and cover more phony miles when I'm not taking info in through my eyeballs. Fascinating. I started gymming 27 years ago, when a good job moved too far suburbward for bicycling to be useful; before this I'd laughed at other people who went somewhere special just to sweat, but I had weight I wanted to keep off (after mending a post-adolescent bulge) and the new site included a nearly-free membership. I've never had trouble getting up to the maximum rate while reading newspapers and magazines (fiction was too hard to follow) on either stair machine or (sloping) treadmill; maybe different forms of geekery?

@Joel Polowin (re snaps for nausea): back in 1981, researchers determined that the folk remedy not only passed objective testing against motion sickness but worked better than Dramamine. Published in Lancet 1 (8273). 1982., p. 655-657. (Why do I have this? Residue from 4 jobs back, when I was working on a search-system-of-search-systems and used this as a test after hearing about it.)

#296 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: February 27, 2018, 06:42 AM:

CHip @295--
Thanks for the link on ginger and motion-sickness. I had not known about that.

This survey article lists another half-dozen studies confirming ginger's anti-nausea effects, not only for motion sickness but also for pregnancy and chemo.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5008850/#R9

Also, in a non-randomized trial, ginger-snaps were preferred to dramamine-snaps by all subjects.

#297 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: February 27, 2018, 12:04 PM:

CHip @ 295 and oldster @ 296:

One day when I was particularly ill, the only thing that was keeping me from praying to the porcelain god that it would all be over was a steady diet of ginger snaps.

Mythbusters also did a segment on various non-pharmaceutical seasickness remedies, and ginger was the only one that worked. I'm not terribly prone to motion sickness, and I don't think I'd enjoy being strapped into their nausea-inducing chair, ginger or no.

#298 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: February 27, 2018, 01:30 PM:

When I was little ginger snaps were always bog-standard drive-in movie fare. It was only years later that I figured out why.

#299 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 27, 2018, 05:25 PM:

olders #296: The thing is, on authority of both my doctor and my pharmacist, Dramamine only works if you take it before you get nauseous, if you're already nauseous you're SOL. Ditto for the newer version, sometimes called "Dramamine II".

Ginger, in contrast, can be taken as a remedy, and it doesn't seem to care what caused the nausea. I keep a little baggie of crystallized ginger in my pack, for use at need.

#300 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: February 27, 2018, 06:03 PM:

me #299: Sorry for mangling oldster's handle.

And, just saw something really cool:

Obstacle Run In Armor

Compares a re-enactor in historically-accurate plate mail, with a firefighter and a modern soldier, each in full gear (turns out, each set of kit weighs about the same).

#301 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: February 27, 2018, 11:54 PM:

OTOH, while Inge was in hospital for all those months, the meal service kept providing her with a can of ginger ale with every meal even though she kept telling them to stop. She now has a strong conditioned aversion to the stuff.

#302 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: February 28, 2018, 09:08 AM:

KeithS @297:

Did they do Coke syrup? When I was small our local pharmacy (a true pharmacy, before the giants swallowed up the locals) sold the stuff as a nausea remedy.

#303 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: February 28, 2018, 03:35 PM:

Quill @ 302:

The Mythbusters tested cinnamon, ginger, a magnetic anti-seasickness armband, an electroshock anti-seasickness wristband, and a placebo. Of those, only the ginger worked reliably.

I've never heard of using Coke syrup as a nausea remedy. Interesting.

Unrelated to any medical benefits, I'm going to have to try Joel Polowin's ginger snaps and the related paprika snaps just on the general principle of tastiness.

#304 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: February 28, 2018, 05:01 PM:

KeithS (303): When I was a kid, my mother would give us warm, flat Coke* when we were throwing up. It seemed to help a little bit.

*That was the only thing she kept it around for.

#305 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: February 28, 2018, 05:37 PM:

With my mother, it was warm, flat lemonade -- the store-bought kind of "lemonade" that's just carbonated water with sugar in, and no actual lemon.

Years later, I learned that the scientifically-tested recommendation for people who have been throwing up is water with sugar (and a bit of salt, but not enough to taste) dissolved in it, to replace the water and electrolytes being lost, and I figured that water with sugar and a bit of carbonic acid was parental folklore converging on the same solution.

#306 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: February 28, 2018, 06:21 PM:

My mom always bought ginger ale when we were sick. We rarely had it in the house any other time. I don't know if it's efficacious or not, but it's set up the association in my head of "this is the thing to drink when you're not feeling well...." so I buy it myself when I feel ill.

#307 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 12:25 AM:

My parents, too, gave me warm flat cola when I was nauseated when I was little.

There are several different "home" versions of the WHO's recipe for rehydration fluid. One calls for 12 or 13 g of sugar and 3/8 tsp salt in 500 mL of water. Inge's variant is ½ cup of juice containing 24 to 24 g of fruit sugars per cup, plus the salt, diluted to 500 mL. Yes, the units are a mishmash.

#308 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 01:11 AM:

KeithS #303: I've never heard of using Coke syrup as a nausea remedy. Interesting.

I have, but the one time I tried to lay hands on it in a drugstore, the price was insane -- something like $9 for a 2-ounce bottle of generic cola syrup, and that was 20-30 years ago. Nowadays you could probably get at least the generic cheaper, courtesy of those at-home soda machines.

Joel Polowin #307: Yes, the units are a mishmash.

Units, who needs units? Back in high school, I heard the "field recipe" for Africa quoted as "a fistful of molasses, a pinch of salt, and three bottles(*) of water".

* That is, empty soda bottle -- at the time, I estimated from looks that it was what I'd call the 12-ounce bottle.

#309 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 07:04 AM:

"A Fistful of Molasses" sounds like a buddy-flick starring Clint Eastwood and Paddington the Bear.

#310 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 07:40 AM:

In the third act, El Halcón, the arch-villain's brutal enforcer, has Paddington and the Stranger trapped at gunpoint in the storeroom of a bordello.

Things look bleak for our intrepid pair, when in a shocking twist, El Halcón strips off his garish luchador masque to reveal Mrs. Bird.
Everyone breathes a sigh of relief.

The climactic shootout will be tipped in their favour by Mrs. Bird's praeternatural accuracy with a feather-duster.

#311 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 09:37 AM:

oldster @309 "A Fistful of Molasses" sounds like a buddy-flick starring Clint Eastwood and Paddington the Bear.

+1 would go see

#312 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 10:08 AM:

KeithS @303:

Thanks! I am one of the fortunate ones who rarely gets motion-sick, so I've never had to try any of 'em, but I can't think that eating cookies while nauseous would go well for me.

#313 ::: Jon Meltzer ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 11:19 AM:

@294 - "Turteltaub" was his family's surname back in The Old Country.

#314 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 07:01 PM:

On several occasions. Dad mentioned an old recipe of some sort (don't know how old, but he was born in 1925) that called for "eight glurgs of molasses."

Seemed like a lot of molasses to me. Always wondered if he had exaggerated. (Yes, he might have.)

CHip @295: Dunno. It's just how it's gone so far. If I'm into what I'm reading, my legs slow down. Narrative listening doesn't seem to do the same. I'm hoping it will continue to work.

#315 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 01, 2018, 08:53 PM:

oldster #309: "A Fistful of Molasses" sounds like a buddy-flick starring Clint Eastwood and Paddington the Bear.

It it wrong that I'd pay money to see that? ;-)

#316 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: March 02, 2018, 12:12 AM:

During the winter, most of my exercise happens on our exercise bike. It goes a *lot* better when I'm reading a book, just about anything absorbing, than when I'm watching or listening to TV. Reading is a much better distraction, or something like that; I don't notice the effort I'm putting in.

#317 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: March 02, 2018, 02:36 AM:

Just submitted proposals for two different papers on Spider Robinson for the San José Worldcon's academic track*. The puns in the titles are of varying quality, but it seemed wrong to not have a pun at all.

Nailbite time. I've never submitted a paper proposal before!

*Partly because I really wanted to, and partly because if I'm giving a paper I can maybe convince the university to give me some cash towards airfare.

#318 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: March 02, 2018, 08:36 AM:

I saw a study summary once about rehydration fluid and a group of people who were working to demystify it-- do you give families in threatened areas special measuring cups, do you explain it, things like that. They ended up finding that 'good enough' was good enough, and measurements based on a person's (usually a woman's) hands were within the margin of error for the fluid. I like things like that, adjusting directions and explanations so you can meet people where they are rather than where you think they should be.

At the State Fair, I advise people to get two honey lemonades in the ag barn, one to drink right then and one to drink more slowly (but still, realistically, finish before you go outside.) It's mostly because it's tasty and the long line goes past the demo hives so you can stare at them and try to spot the queen (I have succeeded one single time) but also because it's a good way to start the day and ward off dehydration headaches.

In completely unrelated news, if you know young writers, please point them toward Alpha. It's a good workshop, I really like being staff there each year, and this year's instructor lineup is intimidating and awesome.

#319 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 02, 2018, 07:31 PM:

oldster @ 309-310: [snortle] And I'd probably pay to see that too....

#320 ::: B. Durbin ::: (view all by) ::: March 02, 2018, 11:43 PM:

I've been using a pinch of salt on the back my throat followed by a glass of water ever since seeing the guest post about dehydration, heat stroke, and treatments thereof some years back. It really did help with the dehydration headaches—and when my electrolytes get out of balance, they apparently do so in the direction of "not enough salt," since that also fixes the puffy hands that I sometimes get on hikes. (Coconut water is also something I use for when I've been working outside—I get cans from Grocery Improv when they're in stock, something like 1/3 of the usual price.)

#321 ::: Sandy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 04, 2018, 09:22 AM:

*catches up*

@225: Chinese wheelbarrows are awesome!

@123 et al: This time travel cheat sheet is not as good as I remember it being.

@227: 3-D interaction is important, but online communities are a different type of excellent.

@39: Probably far too late, but Moby Dick has a whole flinchworthy chapter, "The Whiteness Of The Whale", which might have a couple of nuggets of usefulness in there. In other news, I recently read Moby Dick because I haven't read almost any of the classics, and I'm trying them out and seeing what still works (IMO). The things that make Moby Dick amazing wouldn't work without the things that make it terrible. (It takes a hundred pages before we even see the Pequod.)

#322 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 04, 2018, 10:27 PM:

Fun twitter thread on speaking "online-ish."

#323 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: March 05, 2018, 02:11 PM:

How small is this planet?

Everybody's familiar with the principle of six degrees of separation. Less familiar with the fact that it works across distances of time as well (I have two degrees of separation from Lenin, for example). There are also degrees of kinship. Every single human being is related, as A.J. Jacobs, my cousin, and George Bush's, famously pointed out. Some, of course, more closely than others. A post upthread reminded me that, in one novel of alternative history, a moderately distant relative of mine killed off another moderately distant relative of mine. This led me to wonder if the two of them were more closely related. (I.E., as far as I'm aware, they're related to me on the different sides of my family.)

Today, lots of people want to pull us apart. I'd like to keep remembering the things that tie us together.

#324 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: March 05, 2018, 03:43 PM:

I've made an irregular practice of reading some of the NTSB's accident reports ever since Abi posted How to Drop a Gulfstream IV into a Ravine: Habitual Noncompliance in her Parhelia. Accidents make the headlines, but the eventual, meticulously-researched findings not so much. I know there are people here for whom the train accidents in New Jersey in 2016 and New York in 2017 were local news. The NTSB recently published a report for the End-of-Track Collisions at Terminal Stations Hoboken, New Jersey, September 29, 2016 and Atlantic Terminal, Brooklyn, New York, January 4, 2017 (pdf). It's fascinating reading (if you're me).

Probable cause for the New Jersey accident:

The National Transportation Safety Board determined that the probable cause of the Hoboken, New Jersey, accident was the failure of New Jersey Transit train 1614’s engineer to stop the train after entering Hoboken Terminal due to the engineer’s fatigue resulting from his undiagnosed severe obstructive sleep apnea. Contributing to the accident was New Jersey Transit’s failure to follow its internal obstructive sleep apnea screening guidance and refer at-risk safety-sensitive personnel for definitive obstructive sleep apnea testing and treatment. Further contributing to the accident was the Federal Railroad Administration’s failure to require railroads to medically screen employees in safety-sensitive positions for obstructive sleep apnea and other sleep disorders. Also contributing to the accident was the lack of either a device or safety system that could have intervened to stop the train before the collision.

Probable cause for the New York accident:

The National Transportation Safety Board determined the probable cause of the Brooklyn, New York, accident was that the engineer of Long Island Rail Road train 2817 fell asleep due to his chronic fatigue. Contributing to his chronic fatigue was the engineer’s undiagnosed severe obstructive sleep apnea, and Long Island Rail Road’s failure to initiate obstructive sleep apnea screening for safety-sensitive personnel and refer at-risk safety-sensitive personnel for definitive obstructive sleep apnea testing and treatment before the accident. Further contributing to the accident was the Federal Railroad Administration’s failure to require railroads to medically screen employees in safety-sensitive positions for obstructive sleep apnea and other sleep disorders. Also contributing to the accident was the lack of either a device or a safety system that could have intervened to stop the train before the collision.
#325 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 05, 2018, 04:58 PM:

324
They're trying to get railroad to install systems that can stop or slow trains when the engineers fail to do so - it's called "positive train control", and a big part of the push was the train crash in Chatsworth several years back, which I am told was audible from my building, more than a mile away - I was actually at LA Union Station at the time, waiting for my train, which was the next one. (I'm not sure if the NTSB ever found out that there wasn't always much warning when that signal went red, at least when there was only a southbound train - we could see the headlight coming around that bend right after the signal changed, and the bend was maybe a couple of hundred years up the track from the signal.)

#326 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: March 05, 2018, 05:33 PM:

P J Evans @ 325:

In reading several reports (including this one), positive train control is something the NTSB has been pushing for for decades. This report mentions that the deadline for PTC had been extended by Congress a couple of times, it was subject to waiver in certain scenarios, and that the Federal Railway Administration granted the stations waivers for positive train control. So, yeah.

I'm familiar with that bend around to Union Station in LA. That whole stretch of tracks is a complete mess, and I've been stuck waiting for signals to clear there more than once. Hooray for freight trains having right of way.

#327 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 05, 2018, 09:42 PM:

326
The bend I was talking about was the one coming from the tunnel to Simi - the one by Union Station doesn't get the freights, but you still get hung up waiting for the signals to change to get in and out of the station. There's talk of extending some of the middle tracks across the freeway and around to have a route through, especially for Amtrak, to speed up some traffic, but as far as I know it's no more than in planning.

#328 ::: John M. Burt ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 03:30 AM:

I'm writing an article for the Corvallis Advocate, a weekly newspaper, about the colorful downtown alleys, which I would like to refer to as "the mean streets of Corvallis", but my editor is challenging me to prove that alleys really are referred to in some parts of the English-speaking world as "mean streets", and I am not having any success in searching out the term.

Search engines are clotted with rhetorical uses of the phrase, burying any technical uses of it.

Can anyone help me with this?

#329 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 07:43 AM:

John M. Burt #328: I'd consider the "straight" usage of "mean streets" to be at least archaic. I'm not sure that alleys are actually the proper referent, but if so I'd expect it to be by way of a use of "mean" as associated with poverty.

#330 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 09:54 AM:

They're called "mean" streets because they are half-way between the regular streets.

#331 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 10:51 AM:

https://twitter.com/EmilyRCWilson/status/970406716679643136

Were Homer's sirens sexy? Or offering knowledge?

Compares a bunch of translations, not to mention Scrooge McDuck. That last has them presumably optimizing the temptation for the target like the Ring or thionite.

#332 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 12:42 PM:

AFAIK the primary usage of "mean streets" is Raymond Chandler, and it was not used to mean "alleys" there. In fact, I've never heard it used in that way myself. It may be very regional (in which case, the Dictionary of American Regional English is probably your best bet for finding that usage officially cited).

#333 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 01:20 PM:

"Mean" does...er mean "inadequate, poor in quality", so using the phrase to refer to alleys is sensible. That said, I've never heard it that way and as Tom Whitmore says they only time I've ever encountered the phrase was in reference to the Chandler quote, and Chandler clearly meant all the streets of a city, not just the alleys.

Down these mean streets a man must go who is not himself mean, who is neither tarnished nor afraid. The detective in this kind of story must be such a man. He is the hero, he is everything. He must be a complete man and a common man and yet an unusual man. He must be, to use a rather weathered phrase, a man of honor, by instinct, by inevitability, without thought of it, and certainly without saying it. He must be the best man in his world and a good enough man for any world.

#334 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 04:00 PM:

John M. Burt, #328:

Using Google Ngram Viewer for "mean streets" may be instructive. Note especially the search links below the graph. (I used a case-insensitive search.)

Arthur Morrison's 1895 book Tales of Mean Streets, set in the slums of London, seems to presage a sharp rise in use of the phrase. But I can find several examples in books and magazines of the 1817-1869 period.

1848: Heaven Upon Earth by L. D. H. Zabranhi:

But the misery goes further, there is tenfold the number of other low and mean streets and lanes—not perhaps so bad, yet very little better, in respect of comfort and respectability—with an average of ten to one hundred of such streets.

1852: Forests, Woods and Trees in Relation by Hygiene by Augustine Henry:

Trees are on the whole more suited for suburbs than for the central or business quarters of a town. They add greatly to the happiness of the inhabitants of mean streets. They have in this way a hygienic effect.

1858: A Gazetteer of the Territories under the Government of the East-India Company compiled by the East India Company, Edward Thornton, and Arthur Naylor Wollaston:

The few principal streets, which are within the fort, are wide and airy. There are, however, several mean streets, with mud-built houses. The number of inhabitants within the fort is about 5,000, principally dependent on the zemindar.

1852: The Rookeries of London: Past, Present, and Prospectiveby Thomas Beames:

The district we would now describe was evidently covered with small buildings towards the beginning of the last century, though a large space of open ground was still left unoccupied to the north. A square piece of stone is let into one of the houses in New Street, on which is inscribed the date 1704. Thirty years before this Sir Christopher Wren could complain of the small streets which were building, and the poverty of their inhabitants; and Fielding, in 1740, describes the mob, whom he calls the fourth estate of the realm, as encroaching upon people of fashion, and driving them from their seats in Leicester, Soho, and Golden Squares, to Cavendish Square and the streets in its vicinity. The site of The Rookery we are about to describe was then in its infancy, covered with mean streets and houses, and appears, even a hundred years since, to have formed part of a district which had rapidly degenerated.

There are further examples. In general, "mean streets" appears to refer either to less-than-principal streets, or to streets in a poor part of town, but not to alleys. Hope this is helpful.

#335 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 04:21 PM:

The NY/NJ train crashes were pseudo-local for me - I used to take the train from NJ to DC a lot in the 80s (even randomly met Dave Farber on the train!), and former coworkers of mine have ended up teaching in NYC and Philly and frequently take the train to DC to do policy stuff, so they really cared about crashes of trains they could have taken. I don't know if "untreated sleep apnea" is the new "human error" to distract from the "oh, and we still don't have Positive Train Control deployed."

Apparently some of the California trains use a different flavor of PTC, and have delayed installing it in some places (like SF-SanJose Caltrain) because of arguments about which standards to use and the high cost of custom solutions and the possibility of needing multiple flavors of PTC on the same routes for different kinds of trains. Arrgh.

#336 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 04:24 PM:

John M Burt@328 Re: "mean streets"
I'd think a weekly newspaper about a colorful part of your local area would be a highly appropriate place to use colorful language, even if the way you're using it hadn't turned out to be more historically accurate than the common use of the phrase today.

#337 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 05:29 PM:

TomB,#330, that is a nice one, but I don't think it is what people usually, um, mean, when they talk about "mean streets"--the connotation here being lowly, unappealing, impoverished, etc.
Alleys have in the English-speaking world been referred to as ginnels, entries, jiggers, snickets, closes, drifts, droves, gullies, wynds and twitchels. I may have left out a few. Anyway I look forward to reading the Corvallis article. It's time for alleys to not be so despised [but then I'm biased].
Best wishes to Abi and others in need.

#338 ::: Sumana Harihareswara ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 07:27 PM:

Book recommendation: Tressie McMillan Cottom's Lower Ed, on the huge increase in the number of for-profit colleges in the US in the past several years. It's sociology, it's part memoir, it's incisive and funny and sad.

#339 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: March 06, 2018, 09:48 PM:

Somewhat of an update on the white-animals update, I've found the most lovely sentence in an 1865 article in "Notes and Queries."

"A celebrated white hart, which was called Albert, and which was a noble-looking animal, was selected for the day's sport."

ALBERT.

#340 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: March 07, 2018, 10:16 AM:

Em @339, coincidentally this morning I read Tolkien's Lay of Aoutrou and Itroun, which is based on? partly sourced from? a Breton song and features a white doe leading the unlucky (or unwise) protagonist to the fae lady who becomes his doom.

Also, omg, Albert!

#341 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: March 07, 2018, 11:43 AM:

@estelendur

It gets better. The story of the hunting of Albert was recorded by one Sir Halliday Wagstaffe.

#342 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: March 07, 2018, 12:51 PM:

Em @341: Amazing! Wagstaffe! Fine English name, that :)

#343 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 12:37 AM:

I'm a trifle skeptical, given that I can't find anything about Halliday Wagstaffe except this anecdote.

#344 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 03:26 AM:

Keith S @324

There's a pretty complete description of the first PTC here. It's not a new idea, over a hundred years of use on railways in Britain, and American railway companies have been trying to get out of using it for almost that long.

The Great Western Railway was able to do this with steam locomotives, when aeroplanes were still rare and wondrous and it didn't have to be forced on them by regulators.

It's no wonder that the GWR has a certain reputation in Britain, even though the name is used by a modern train operating company that is but a pale shadow of the original.

#345 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 11:28 AM:

HelenS @343

Me too, and there's a followup article in which someone else derides the previous article as absolute nonsense, but I'm more interested in what people thought was true at the time the magazine was being published, from a research perspective. I'm just terribly amused by the names!

#346 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 02:36 PM:

I checked at www.ukcensusonline.com there are 22 people with the initial "H" and the surname Wagstaff in the 1861 census. No hits for "Halliday Wagstaffe". "Halliday" is a pretty uncommon forename, a couple of dozen examples in both 1861 and 1871, and none with a plausible occupation to fit the story. I didn't bother checking for people with the same name in both years, but a couple of 1871 names (one a Chelsea Pensioner) could easily have been out of the country in 1861.

There is at least one 8yo working in a factory amongst the 1871 names. It was still lawful then.

I'd go with the idea that it'a a fake article.

Incidentally, Prince Albert died in December 1861. Would that make the attachment of the name more likely, or less?

#347 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 03:56 PM:

So, I just walked outside, and it was snowing. Admittedly not much, and the sun came out a moment later... oy vey.

#348 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 08:04 PM:

For what it's worth, the possibly-apocryphal Sir Halliday Wagstaffe allegedly lived during the reign of Henry VII. here's one of the followups!

(I am having such a good time with this magazine. It's a delight.)

#349 ::: Kathryn from Sunnyvale ::: (view all by) ::: March 08, 2018, 08:40 PM:

Bill @335,
That's why I think forensic psychology / forensic group psychology is the most important forensics field. Yes, we should know what went wrong in each individual incident. But understanding the groupthink or group-thoughtlessness or SEP field that made it all possible? That's key.

What type of arguments keep well-meaning people from installing critical safety features? Is it related to why doesn't California have an earthquake early warning system, given that Japan has had it for over 10 years, and Mexico City for over 30?

#350 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: March 09, 2018, 01:15 AM:

Oh, yeah, Notes & Queries always reminds me of Wikipedia arguments, complete with usernames.

#351 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: March 09, 2018, 06:41 PM:

Via Twitter:

Patrick & Teresa are looking for a charity to take their culled books.

Also, they had a bit of a flooding disaster last night. Fortunately in their old place. Lost a bed and some basement shelving.

#352 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 09, 2018, 07:34 PM:

Leaving them with their second-best bed? How Shakespearean!

#353 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 09, 2018, 07:40 PM:

Apologies for posting a plug, but I think this one is worthwhile.

In a couple of weeks, I will be going to my family's annual gathering, where all the descendants of my mother's family will be gathered under one roof. In the 40-odd years that these gatherings have been happening, they've always peaceful and loving, and I have every expectation of this continuing. Among the relations gathered there will be my cousin, Veera Hiranandani. She is a writer. This year, her new novel is coming out, and and this one is something special. I have just read The Night Diary, and both from pride in my cousin, and the impact of the book, I couldn't resist posting something about it here.

Her first novel, The Whole Story Of Half A Girl, drew on her own experiences as a biracial child, and it was a moving story and an excellent debut. For this book, she's reached farther back; to her father's generation and the Partition of India. From that, she's come up with something far deeper and more powerful. She shows us the Partition through the diary of a young girl, written as letters to the mother she never knew. Rather than just trying to summarize or shower praise, I will just excerpt from an entry somewhat before the middle:

Dear Mama,
It's happening now. [...]
So as of today, the ground I'm standing on is not India anymore. And Kazi is supposed to live in one place and we're supposed to leave and find a new home. Is there a Muslim girl sitting in her house right now who has to leave her home and go to a new country that's not even called India? Does she feel confused and scared too? [...]
If you were alive, would we have to leave you because you are Muslim? Would they have drawn a line right through us, Mama?
#354 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 10, 2018, 03:35 PM:

Angiportus @ 337: my first thought for a missed synonym was "mews"; Wikipedia tells me this can mean either an enclosed stable area or the back lane/alley which accesses such areas (e.g., behind a row of grand houses). So sometimes.

Kathryn @ 349: What type of arguments keep well-meaning people from installing critical safety features? What "well-meaning people"? From the description, it's not clear to me how much this is private corporations saying "The public be damned!" and how much is Congress demanding that states spend money on amenities for a federal system (Amtrak) and/or failing to knock heads together until a single system is picked and applied nationwide. I suspect that Japan and Mexico have much more integrated funding and rulemaking.

#355 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 10, 2018, 03:43 PM:

Teen Antarctic skier snaps sexist commenters (Start ~1:05 in for this bit -- but the rest is amazing.)

#356 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: March 10, 2018, 04:47 PM:

CHip @ 355:

When I watched it, the automatic advertisement server decided that the best accompaniment would be an ad for feminine beauty products (the ad itself was very definite that feminine was what they were).

Sigh.

#357 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 10, 2018, 07:03 PM:

I met a farer from a far-off strand
Who said, “Two giant feet of bronze, gone green,
In water sit, bedecked with broken chains
That show their maker well did understand
That marks of former slavery yet seen
Thus serve to show dead servitude’s remains.

Near by, a broken torch lies, dead and dark
In grimy water’s tide that, fitful, passes,
And on the base, these words my eyes did mark:
‘Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses
Yearning to breathe free.’ Here ends the poem,
The rest is eaten by the restless water.
Along the shore, starved, feral humans roam
Whose brandished weapons offered nought but slaughter.”

KW 20180310

#358 ::: Jim Parish ::: (view all by) ::: March 10, 2018, 08:15 PM:

Kip W @ 357: Wow. Excellent.

#359 ::: Susie ::: (view all by) ::: March 12, 2018, 10:43 AM:

Dave Harmon @ 353: Thanks for plugging your cousin Veera Hiranandani's new book! I enjoyed hearing her talk about it on NPR yesterday morning and look forward to reading it.

#360 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: March 12, 2018, 09:34 PM:

Kip 357: Holy SHIT that's good.

#361 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 13, 2018, 01:45 PM:

HLN: Local woman wakes up with a painful rash on her face. Sees doctor; is diagnosed with shingles. However, despite the closeness of the rash to the eye, the optic nerve is not involved (per second doctor visit to ophthamologist). So there's that.

#362 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 13, 2018, 02:35 PM:

Kip W #357: Whether taken as despair or warning, that's exquisitely done.

#363 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 13, 2018, 05:39 PM:

361
You want an antiviral to knock it down - trust me, it's much better when it involves a cranial nerve. (The first time I had shingles, it was from the bridge of my nose diagonally up and into my hair.)

#364 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: March 13, 2018, 06:30 PM:

I'm on an antiviral prescription from my doctor, and the ophthamologist that my doctor referred me to prescribed an anti-bacterial ointment to use to prevent secondary infections.

It's itchy and annoying, but I'm REALLY glad it doesn't involve the eye. Apparently that was a 50/50 coin toss, given the location of the shingles outbreak

#365 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 13, 2018, 11:50 PM:

Stephen Hawking, R.I.P.

#366 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 05:34 AM:

Jacque #365: Stephen Hawking, R.I.P.

Too bad... but the dude managed a pretty solid life on borrowed time!

#367 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 10:27 AM:

that brings up a "This Month in History" from the Sept 2004 Locus:
Sept 12, 2024
Hawking retires.
In his televised farewell speech the famed physicist reveals that he has actually been dead for six years but wasn't done with his research projects.

#368 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 10:55 AM:

PJ Evans, that's a little spooky. Only six months off....

#369 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 11:21 AM:

Yes - I hadn't remembered the dates, but I'd written it down back then.

#370 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 05:02 PM:

Oh goody. A wildfire has started at the base of the First Flatiron, west of Boulder.

#371 ::: guthrie ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 05:50 PM:

Jacque #370 - isn't it still winter there?

#372 ::: Robert Glaub ::: (view all by) ::: March 14, 2018, 07:40 PM:

Official retirement date: April 3. 39 years federal service.

#373 ::: Rob Hansen ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 08:02 AM:

One of the better Hawking obits I came across was on what is primarily a parody site:

Stephen Hawking

#374 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 10:23 AM:

guthrie: Well, for fairly broad definitions of "winter" which include "fall," "spring," and occassionally even "summer." Also the driest time of year.

#375 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 11:16 AM:

Thank you, Rob, for 373. Sharing it elseweb.

#376 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 05:09 PM:

Making Light

The last few months have kept me busy with medical issues: MRIs, CAT scans, ordinary(because this is the future!) X-rays, doctors’ consultations, etc. The diagnosis is stenosis of the cervical spine and scoliosis of the lumbar spine. So tomorrow I’m going in to the hospital for an operation to alleviate the cervical problems. It’s a relatively long procedure, but the recovery time should be short: 3 days in the hospital and a few weeks for complete healing of the incision. I’ll be walking the day after the procedure.

In about 3 months the surgeon will evaluate the results of this surgery and plan a surgery to fix the lumbar problems. That will be a longer procedure (may be broken up into 2 operations to make it easier on both me and the surgeons) and will probably require a stay in a rehab therapy facility for a week or 2 and then 4 to 6 months recovery time.

So I’ll be radio-silent for a few days and then I hope to have some free time to start posting here again.

#377 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 06:39 PM:

May all go well, Bruce!

#378 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 07:10 PM:

My household has asked for a new name for Teresa's recipe Chicken with Brown Things. They love the dish but can't stand the name.

#379 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 07:51 PM:

Mmmm. Chicken with fungus.

#380 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 11:26 PM:

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. For the cervical work they have to go in the back of the neck, so I had to cut off my ponytail. I’ve had that more than 20 years. Oh, well, we gave the hair to the birds in the yard for their nests, so there’s a bright side to it

#381 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 11:28 PM:

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. For the cervical work they have to go in the back of the neck, so I had to cut off my ponytail. I’ve had that more than 20 years. Oh, well, we gave the hair to the birds in the yard for their nests, so there’s a bright side to it

#382 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: March 15, 2018, 11:34 PM:

Oops. Sorry for the extra post, gnomes. Got the “too many posts” error.

#383 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 16, 2018, 12:04 AM:

380
Well, hair grows. (I'm getting mine back, but it takes a while.)

#384 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 16, 2018, 10:05 AM:

Bruce Cohen, best wishes on the surgery; condolences on the ponytail. But it went to a good cause...

#385 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 16, 2018, 10:52 AM:

Just sent in my final Hugo nomination ballot. Don't forget to nominate the works you loved last year!

Nominations close at midnight US Pacific Time. But the servers may be overloaded as we get close to that time, so earlier is better...

#386 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: March 16, 2018, 02:57 PM:

Wishing you smooth going with all things medical, Bruce Cohen

#387 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: March 16, 2018, 05:09 PM:

Likewise wishing Bruce a successful result and a speedy recovery.

#388 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 16, 2018, 10:46 PM:

Bruce: Good surgery, speedy recovery, and I hope the pillow doesn't feel too weird when you lie back.

#389 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 04:02 AM:

Bruce Cohen @376: Wow, that sounds—intense. Hope all goes well!

Allan Beatty @378: Chicken with Brown Things

Google Translate doesn't offer up any North African languages, which is where the couscous and paprika take my mind. Or possibly Hebrew, but there's no "listen" function for that, so I don't know how it sounds. However:

French: poulet avec des choses brunes
Italian: pollo con cose marroni

Both of which seem suitably euphonious.

#390 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 12:59 PM:

Thanks, everyone, for your good wishes. The surgery went very well, and I’m recovering right on schedule. Plan is to go home on Monday, and it looks like even the weather will cooperate: forecast is sunny with a high in the mid 50sF.

#391 ::: Pfusand ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 01:37 PM:

Yay!

#392 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 06:10 PM:

A bird's nest made from a pony-tail is...a mare's nest?

(better than a sofa stuffed with horse-hair, which is a real couchamare).

#393 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 08:46 PM:

Paul A. @ 355: [Sigh]^2.

Kip W @ 357: Grimmer than Benét ("The Place of the Gods") or even Nelson Bond -- but more believable given these times.

@Cassy B: yay for staying away from the optical nerve. As someone who had chicken pox as a child, I'm just hoping heredity holds out for me (I have all the annoyances from both sides of the family, but so far nothing they didn't have). What I hear of shingles is Not Fun; best wishes for its quick and permanent suppression.

Robert Glaub @ 372: Congratulations!

Rob Hansen @ 375: Wow. Short and sweet.

Jacque @ 389: I'm guessing the chicken is filleted; if not, would that make the recipe pollo con Boney Maroney?

oldster @ 392: we'll both show ourselves out....

#394 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 08:59 PM:

AKICIML: I'm reading (in small chunks) My Father, the Pornographer (expansion of the magazine article -- one or the other was discussed here when it came out) and am finding it intermittently fascinating in a sort of poke-it-with-a-long-stick way (not helped by his let's-all-poke-it-with-a-long-stick approach to SF fandom, even allowing for the time/place he most remembers). I'm curious about the statement that "the science fiction market had dried up as pornography ignited" (no date given, but from context he means before the early 1970's); I know Offutt wasn't the only SF writer to do hardcore (I've heard that Silverberg did until his SF caught on), but I had the impression that SF sales did not particularly flag in opposition to anything else; can anyone comment on that period?

#395 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 09:13 PM:

Happy Healing Bruce!

#396 ::: Rainflame ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 11:18 PM:

Kate Wilhelm has died. I don't do links, but you can find the story at registerguard.com

#397 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 17, 2018, 11:20 PM:

CHip @394: the big SF magazine implosion of the late 50s/early 60s was a serious failure of the distribution system: the number of magazines dropped precipitously. Some SF people (Bill Hamling most notably) grabbed onto publishing porn of various sorts, from skin mags like ROBUe (Frank Robinson and Harlan Ellison were big parts of that) and Nightstand Books. There was a legit paperback house as part of that empire (Regency Books) where Budrys and Ellison were editors -- they published the first collection of Cordwainer Smith, and a small batch of SF in their 42-book catalog between 1961 and 1963. So it was a combination of one market being reduced, and friends running another market. Silverberg was selling just fine in SF at the time: but porn paid fast, and better, than SF for the same amount of effort. And the market was much bigger. They'd basically take anything. MZB wrote a few; Dean Koontz, Donald E. Westlake, and lots of others as well. It's a fascinating part of our history.

#398 ::: SunflowerP ::: (view all by) ::: March 18, 2018, 02:21 AM:

A friend pointed me at this tweet riffing on that much-riffed WCW poem, and I immediately thought, 'That sounds like something Fluorospherians would appreciate!'

#399 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: March 18, 2018, 10:06 AM:

I read of Wilhelm's death the other day and recalled that she along with Thomas Scortia wrote "The Clone", about not what we'd consider a clone nowadays but more of a spontaneous protean lifeform in city sewers; it along with Joseph Payne Brennan's "Slime" made quite an impression on me when I was 12. As in I was a bit nervous for a while when I had to use any of the household plumbing.

#400 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 18, 2018, 11:56 AM:

Angiportus Librarysaver @399: Ted Thomas, not Tom Scortia. (I checked to be sure, and that's not a pseudonym of Scortia's.)

#401 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 19, 2018, 12:29 AM:

Karen K. Anderson, author, fan, widow of Poul and mother of Astrid, has died. It's a loss to the field of SF that will be little noticed, I expect, but it's profound enough that I want to mention it here.

#402 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: March 19, 2018, 10:11 AM:

Oops. Sorry. It's been a while. Thanks for setting the record straight.

#403 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: March 19, 2018, 10:36 AM:

I know (The) Karen Anderson was a gracious host to the fan community in the Bay Area for many years. She was extraordinarily intelligent, energetic, and had many interests. She was wholeheartedly a fan, with many friends in fandom. She will be missed.

#404 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: March 19, 2018, 01:43 PM:

@Tom Whitmore, may her memory be a blessing to her friends, family, and fans.

#405 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: March 20, 2018, 09:15 PM:

AKICIML: A bakery near me used to do soft, wide, flat hamantaschen that were perhaps an inch thick at most, about palm-sized, and had filling all the way out to the edge of the fold. They were wonderfully chewy and nice, with a little crispy browning at the corners. The bakery has since changed their recipe to make a much smaller, taller, shortbready, almost crunchy hamantaschen and I miss the old ones dearly. Does anyone have a notion of how I might recreate them, whether this is a normal variation, or anything like that?

#406 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: March 21, 2018, 12:31 PM:

Felicitous natal anniversary to TNH, who thereby ceases to be the same age as me until August.

#407 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: March 21, 2018, 01:15 PM:

Tom Paine had it exactly right: these are the times that try men's souls. Women's also, I'd imagine.

We are seeing the emergence of uniformed thug armies, with their own élan and viciousness. Their own names too, and derivations from different cesspits of the fascist sewer. What we're not seeing is a charismatic leader who can rally a majority of the country to his (her) side. Such a leader requires something approaching a coherent ideology (e.g., Steve Bannon's Francoism). Dolt45 is about as coherent as flatulence.

The fact that we don't have an SA or a single organised Fascio di Combattimento does not mean that the Volksturm-lite that have been emerging are not a threat. Thus far, the heirs of Durruti have been doing a bang-up job (pun intended) of explaining civility to the bastards.

What we are seeing, be it noted, is that this outburst of fascism is being pushed by some unsavoury characters from Villain Central Casting. So, this time there is a vast right-wing conspiracy, and it's foisted fascists like Bannon and Dolt45 on us. Colour me completely unsurprised.

Now, there is a reality that must be considered -- of white working class fear, on the part of both men and women -- and that we run the risk of sweeping under the carpet. There are manipulators, but there is something that they are manipulating. Democracy is best preserved and strengthened if that something can be eliminated.

The something is a two-fold monster: fear of equality and fear of equity.

The first is the fear that the truth will be heard from Ayanna, Sally, and Jerome when they are sitting at the table with you. The truth is a bit different from the story you've been telling yourself. How are the two to be reconciled?

The second is the fear that, after A, S, and J have been carrying the load the whole way, they may either dole out a portion to you or demand that you chip in from your large bank account to pay for taxi fare. Not pay the whole cost, chip in. What's a reasonable share?

Now, those are reasonable and straightforward questions. I get the feeling that some people not a million miles from the suspect character in the large white mansion on Pennsylvania Avenue, might not want them asked.

#408 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 21, 2018, 06:11 PM:

Happy Birthday, TNH! I've been telling people about the Brave Underdogs team at the Trivia Bowl at whatever Denver con that was—Penulticon, or MileHiCon. With the Zelazny questions.

#409 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 22, 2018, 07:31 AM:

Happy (increasingly belated) birthday, TNH!

#412 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: March 22, 2018, 03:53 PM:

Jacque, thanks for the link. It was excellent.

I think of Luke's and Leia's themes as wistful. Anyone else?

#413 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: March 22, 2018, 06:58 PM:

estelendur @405: I don’t have a recipe to offer per se, but perhaps this post about selecting ingredients to get certain cookie textures might be useful? Soft/chewy seems to involve brown sugar (vs white) and butter (vs shortening)— I spose if the brown sugar note is undesirable, the extra moisture could be subbed in with some corn syrup or honey.

#414 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: March 22, 2018, 06:59 PM:

Ack, my link got eaten: https://blog.kingarthurflour.com/2016/03/14/cookie-chemistry-2/

#415 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 22, 2018, 07:00 PM:

Tom Whitmore @ 397: fascinating; I got the impression young Offutt was talking about paperback novels in both markets rather than magazines, but it's possible I misread -- or he just didn't know.

Angiportus @ 399: I agree that "clone", even in the formal sense, isn't a precise name for the story's driver; but that got me digging. I still don't know when somebody first used "clone" for one of a set of copies (properly "cloning", says Wikipedia) instead of the whole set -- it ought to be in the OED SF supplement, but I don't have that, and the online SF Encyclopedia drifts casually from one usage to the other -- but looking this up found me an error in the W entry (which gave a title wrongly marked for both formats, credited to just Thomas (who wrote the short) but dated for the novel (done by both)), which I have now fixed. One less crumb in the butter on the gears....

This has not been a good week for the genre -- although it's not fairest to chide fate, considering how long we enjoyed their company.

And HBBH to TNH!

#416 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: March 22, 2018, 07:16 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @ #412:

You're not the only one.

#417 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: March 23, 2018, 12:13 AM:

Locus has reported the death of Karen Anderson.

And NY-area filker Rennie Levine was reportedly found dead in her apartment yesterday.

Crap.

#418 ::: Tony Zbaraschuk ::: (view all by) ::: March 23, 2018, 11:03 AM:

For some reason, the front page still seems stuck on

Adventures in being me
Posted by Patrick at 06:21 PM * 50 comments

when that thread was at 55+ last time I checked.

#419 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: March 23, 2018, 11:43 AM:

Tony Zbaraschuk (418): That thread only has 50 comments right now. I just checked.

#420 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 10:31 AM:

About to head off to Portland's March For Our Lives.

It's going to be cold and rainy but there's no other place more important I could be.

#421 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 03:58 PM:

The M4OL in Hoboken was much bigger than expected. We were told to march on the sidewalk, but we took to the street right away, and there were no objections from the police.

My personal hypothesis is that the police looked at our numbers and said "if we make them stay on the sidewalk, this is going to last until Tuesday," and decided to deal with it.

Speakers at City Hall were poorly placed and not nearly loud enough. No one more than three yards back could hear a thing. Took myself off home.

Lots of good signs. Have some pictures of them.

#422 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 04:25 PM:

My daughter Sarah (who some of you may remember as an infant or a toddler) is marching today with some of her high-school classmates. Yes, I'm proud of her.

#423 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 05:36 PM:

I wasn't able to get to the march-in-solidarity in Ottawa, but CBC News covered the Canadian marches prominently. Local news reports listed the streets that were to be blocked off for it.

AKICIML, sort-of... Skin for grafting can be grown in a lab by stretching a small skin sample in a growth medium. With suitable care, all of the features and structures can be developed, so it looks and acts pretty much like normal skin, including nerve growth. My question: might something like that work for small intestine, by extracting a short ring of it from a patient and then stretching it in vitro to elongate it? I've seen a report that a patient with not enough bowel sometimes has the end of their small intestine take on some of the characteristics of the large intestine, but it doesn't work the other way around.

#424 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 06:23 PM:

I'm back, sort of, with both good news and bad news.

The good news is that my cancer seems to be under control. I'm still on chemotherapy, but the new regime isn't kicking my ass any more; I've gained back about 12 pounds from my lowest point, and I can walk again, at least long enough to run into a store and do an errand. I'll be getting another CT scan after the next dose, and then we'll know whether I need another chemo round or can move on to radiation therapy.

The bad news is that we've just lost our senior cat, Grey Mouser. This was sheer old age; he would have been 20 years old in August, and his body just wore out. The linked photo is fairly recent, and the last good one I have of him.

Having been gone for so long, I'm not even going to try to catch up beyond the current Open Thread. But I do hope to be posting more regularly now that I'm in good enough shape to sit at the computer again.

#425 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 06:41 PM:

Good to see you back, Lee. Condolences on the loss of Grey Mouser.

#426 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 24, 2018, 08:54 PM:

424
Lee, yay for fighting it to a draw! Condolences on the loss of your family member.

I'm recovering from my round of chemo (it may be targeted, but it still ain't fun) and have an appointment to see the surgeon (not for the first time) in a couple of weeks. There doesn't seem to a a rush at this point: the tumor is findable only with x-rays.

#427 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: March 25, 2018, 04:20 AM:

Re aging doctors, etc. retiring, I have now reached the age where most of my medical professionals are at least 10 years younger than I am. This does not bother me a bit; apparently I am sufficiently free of the "age = wisdom" meme that what I look for is a professional who treats me like one of the team. "Pipsqueak" is not a term I would apply to any of them.

Time-traveling protagonists: Time and Again is about someone who learns to physically project himself back into 1920s NYC by means of psychological immersion. Eventually he decides to stay there because (as a member of the privileged class) it's more pleasant for him than his own time. And there's a further twist which I won't describe because SPOILER.

In one of Poul Anderson's Time Patrol stories, a Patrolman chooses to exile himself and his wife to the 1800s because the alternative is that she gets killed in the Blitz. He knows more than most people would about exactly what they were getting into.

Re nausea, our standard household nausea cure when I was a kid was ginger ale and either soda crackers or Melba toast rounds. These days we keep candied ginger and ginger chews around for that purpose. I can't imagine that Canada Dry actually had enough ginger in it to improve on the placebo effect, but some boutique ginger ales are much stronger.

Kip W, #357: Oof. That's... strong.

#428 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: March 25, 2018, 08:07 AM:

There is a thread on Twitter recording how pervasive the Harry Potter books are amongst the people who are driving the March For Our Lives. And some of the similarities, at a plot level, are rather obvious. It is the schoolkids getting organised, with the support of their families and teachers, that brings down a corrupt government.

And there are the usual sneers about Harry potter not being real, buried in the comments. That rather misses the point, it's about a set of books that has become a part of the language of that generation, it's a common legend, with some of the same social functions as a classical myth had.

Perhaps a better analogy is the King Arthur legend, which developed as a reflection of, and perhaps an ideal for, medieval England.

I suppose I could call myself part of the Tolkien generation, after the explosion of interest in the mid-Sixties. But that was far smaller, and as a true mass influence it might be more Dungeons & Dragons that defines it. Also, while there was the incomplete animated version, the effects of there being a film didn't hit my generation. You could call the Peter Jackson films part of being in the Harry Potter generation.

It matters that the books and films overlap in their release, built into a common body, well-known and accessible. Some rough round-figuring. from box-office figure, puts around 35 million Americans watching each movie. They have seen films which extol personal courage and morality, and a growing evil that is defeated because the heroes organize!

I'd be more surprised if these kids didn't know about Harry Potter.

#429 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: March 25, 2018, 02:53 PM:

Lee, glad to hear about the good news and condolences on Grey Mouser's passing.

#430 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: March 25, 2018, 03:41 PM:

Lee, I'm glad to hear your good news and sorry to hear about your cat.

****

I ran across the title of the Bester story I was trying to remember for the time traveler discussion-- it's "Hobson's Choice".

#102 ::: CHip

I don't think I've read the story about time travellers who need to raise money to get home.

#431 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 01:03 AM:

Tribbles, step roll aside: giant mutant parthenogenic crayfish invade Europe. It isn't just for SyFy any more.

#432 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 04:11 AM:

FollyCon approaches. Will there be enough of us there for a Gathering of Light to be sensible? At Nineworlds 2016, we had a GoL with two, so I would say that "2" sets a minimum bar for "enough".

#433 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 09:28 AM:

This moose will be at Follycon, so we're just touching the bar.

#434 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 12:21 PM:

Hi, folks -- been very busy here.

I'm stopping by to wish everyone a happy Spring holiday of their choice, because I'm not sure I'll have time later in the week.

The choir is doing a rehearsal on Tuesday night, Mass on Holy Thursday evening, the Easter Vigil and one Mass on Easter Sunday.

I'm hoping my recovering voice will hold out for the whole shebang!


Thank heavens we have several different choirs so all the Masses are covered, the only one we all do is the Vigil Mass on Saturday.

#435 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 12:23 PM:

In that case, I will report back with a date & time & place on, probably, Friday.

#436 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 12:24 PM:

P J Evans & Lee: Luck and congrats(?) on battles with rogue cells!

Lee: Condolences on the passing of Person Mouser. What a handsome feline!

Dave Bell @428: how pervasive the Harry Potter books are amongst the people who are driving the March For Our Lives.

I watched a bunch of interviews with J.K. Rowling a couple of weekends ago, and I was really struck by how the Potter storylines seem to be sort of an activist's manual for the modern age. Particularly spooky, given some of the more...eery aspects of the story's origin.* Makes me wonder if maybe these kids have some Allies in High Places. (Please gods yes...?)

* I was particularly struck by the way Harry just came to her on a train-ride. I imagine the Muses, frustrated after months of trying to fire someone's imagination. So they basically hang a curtain of inspiration across the rail lines, drag-net style. "Maybe we can hook a viable creator this way...."

#437 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 26, 2018, 01:18 PM:

Lee, thanks for staying with us.

#438 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: March 27, 2018, 04:53 AM:

I'm not sure just how significant the timing is for the Harry Potter writing. It was 1990. There had been a decade of reactionary conservatism in Britain, but the Cold War was ending. Some elements of the Ministry of Magic and Voldemort might have been driven by that. But Hogwarts certainly echoes the past too, the same past the reactionaries lust after.

Maybe the lesson in that is that the past isn't the bad thing, it's the blind, unthinking, longing for the past.

#439 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: March 27, 2018, 10:19 AM:

Dave Bell @ #438:

I guess the big question is if the past keeps getting better and better, as there's more past to idolize every single second that passes, or if the past of futures to come is a lesser past than the past of the moment, as the future past will by necessity encompass moments that are still to come (and, thus, by definition, inferior)?

#440 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: March 27, 2018, 06:17 PM:

Ingvar M #439: Or you could recognize that sometimes "the good old days were terrible".

For myself, I recently had occasion to use the phrase "nostalgia ain't what it used to be" in dead earnest. (Admittedly, the discussion was about computer games. ;-) )

#441 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 27, 2018, 07:45 PM:

Dave Harmon: Are you referring to Otto Bettmann's fine book, The Good Old Days: They Were Terrible? I strongly recommend this to all and sundry as a superb cure for nostalgia. It contains detailed takedowns of all that "Little House on the Prairie" BS (though not on LHOTP itself, though I read a remarkable Twitter thread on it not too long ago) and gives a good idea of how wretched existence was in those happy golden days.

#442 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: March 28, 2018, 05:22 AM:

Dave Harmon @ #440:

Or, indeed, acknowledge the truth that the main reason humans tend to think of the past as "better" is that we mostly only remember the good bits, and our past has familiarity, whereas the future doesn't.

I was more trying to get into the headspace of someone who's 100% convinced that the past is better. I probably shouldn't've.

#443 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: March 28, 2018, 07:48 AM:

Only remembering the good bits as 'memories' but remembering the bad bits as 'worries about the future' seems about right. Brains, they are weird.

#444 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: March 28, 2018, 05:56 PM:

We only get crap nostalgia any more. The last really good nostalgia was the nostalgia of '72.

#445 ::: crazysoph ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2018, 07:28 AM:

Follycon - woohoo, me too!

I'm rolling in on Friday, planning of being at artists' gathering later in the evening.

Crazy(will try to be on the lookout!)Soph

#446 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2018, 07:51 AM:

<FX: sound of moose frantically packing stuff and trying to find the Trouser Stiffener.>

Looking forward to Follycon, hope to see you there.

#447 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2018, 10:35 AM:

"Trouser Stiffener," Gracie?

Dare one ask?

#448 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2018, 01:26 PM:

Do we know anyone in Dublin? I have a friend who's going to college there in the fall and is shopping for living space.

#449 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: March 29, 2018, 04:33 PM:

I'm near Dublin, and in the city a couple days a week.

The housing situation here is pretty bad, It's being termed the rent crisis in the media. It may be better for student type accommodations than for family sized dwellings.


(And yay, fun, after we get integrated into an animal rescue charity (yay foster puppies, and Lenny the lap lurcher), our landlord gave us notice and we're looking around. There's like 1 available house of appropriate size in a town of 30k, and 3 within a half hour. And most landlords don't like pets at all. And we won't mention the price)

#450 ::: Anne Sheller ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 03:57 AM:

Lee - it's good to see you back. Here's hoping for continued improvement. Sorry to hear about Gray Mouser.

Lori - Down here at the south end of the diocese, we had rehearsal Tuesday, Tenebrae Wednesday, Mass Thursday, and the Good Friday service. Still to come: Easter Vigil Mass and Easter Sunday morning Mass. Then the choir collapses in exhaustion. Then Bishop Campbell comes down to our neck of the woods 4/8 for Confirmation. Then we collapse again.

#451 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 12:27 PM:

Jacque @ #447

Of course one may. Trouser Stiffener (full title "Bell's Patent Trouser Stiffener and Throat Lubricant") is Polish Cherry Vodka (40% abv) and acquired this nickname after an accident during a staircase party in the Adelphi Hotel, Liverpool. A quantity was spilled on someone's trousers, was not cleaned off sufficiently thoroughly, and by the following morning had set fairly hard - causing a certain amount of amusement and resulting in the name.

(Spoof labels were subsequently produced.)

Unfortunately this moose was unable to locate his supply of this substance, and has not brought any to Follycon 2 as a result. Bah!

#452 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 12:40 PM:

So ... I just discovered that Bujold's written another 4 novellas in the Penric & Desdemona series (yes, i'm behind) -- and was ready with payment in hand, and happily derailed plans for the day, only to discover that the only place (other than Amazon[0]) that seems to have them in ebook format is Barnes & Noble... who only sell inside the US :(

Surely there must be some specific word that addresses the frustration/disappointment/annoyance of this sort of thing!

Bah!

[0] ... and buying a kindle so that I can read books in a closed format is just ... no.

#453 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 12:45 PM:

xeger@452: it's a variant of being cookiejarred. The feeling of knowing something's there waiting, and then discovering that someone else has finished it off.

#454 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 01:03 PM:

xeger (452): Sympathies. That's remarkably frustrating. Could you--would you be willing to--download the Kindle app so you can read them?

#455 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 01:08 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @ 430: "Hobson's Choice" is in fact what I was thinking of; given the title I could find which books it was in, one of which I have. It's interesting what sticks in different readers' minds. What I remember was between-the-plot bits, in which someone was begging in broken English; in the last bit we find out that they're trying to get enough money for a ticket to the local office of the time-travel firm, for the reason I mentioned.

Cadbury Moose @ 451: sounds like that vodka had a lot of additives -- or maybe the thread was made of something strange that half-dissolved in the alcohol, seeped, and set up?!?

#456 ::: Naomi Parkhurst ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 01:49 PM:

Xeger @452 - this might or might not help, but I bought the sequels through Apple’s iBooks.

#457 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 01:57 PM:

xeger, #452: The Kindle smartphone app is free. It's what I have, because I didn't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a dedicated e-reader, and it works just fine.

#458 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 02:38 PM:

Tom Whitmore @ 453 ...
xeger@452: it's a variant of being cookiejarred. The feeling of knowing something's there waiting, and then discovering that someone else has finished it off.

This feels more like somebody packaged up the cookies for me, and then turned around and handed them to somebody else -- I can _see_ them, but I can't get at them :(

Mary Aileen @ 454 / Lee @ 457 ...
re: using the kindle app -- I could possibly do that, and it would definitely work to read them at my laptop.. (which would do for the immediate fix) -- but I'm certain that it won't work on my tablet, so I wouldn't be able to take the books with me :(

... and having just taken a quick look at this, it's not just the kindle app -- you also have to turn on 1-click ordering (and can't turn it back off again -- turning it off leaves you with Note: 1-Click ordering is always enabled for digital video, Kindle books, MP3s, and other digital purchases. -- as well as link your app to Amazon.

Naomi Parkhurst @ 456 ...
Xeger @452 - this might or might not help, but I bought the sequels through Apple’s iBooks.

Huh! I'd completely missed that they were there -- but apple unfortunately also use DRM on the books that they sell, which means that I'd still be stuck not being able to read the books on my tablet :(

OTOH, I've at least already sold (part of) my soul to apple...

Bah! I know I'm in the minority, but I'm not at all a fan of having everything I do online be attached to one megacorp or another -- and the things I want to do offline being impossible without that attached umbilicus. Bah!

#459 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 03:35 PM:

Chip @ #455

Cherries, and a fair amount of sugar as a result.

Not quite as sticky when dry as Krupnik (aka "Bear Restorer"), which has honey in it, though.

#460 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 04:38 PM:

xeger: I don't know what brand of tablet you have, but the Kindle app works on my iPad. Amazon, for obvious reasons, has ported the app to just about all the platforms available.

#461 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 06:05 PM:

David Goldfarb @ 460 ...
Huh, it turns out that there once was a version of the Kindle app for my tablet (v1.0, with all that implies). Unfortunately finding it (from a reliable source[0]) seems to be problematic.

[0] Being that the vendor no longer really exists and thus doesn't support it. This is what happens when you stick with old hardware because it's reliable, and actually has decent screen real estate.

#462 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 08:47 PM:

The Hugo nominees are up at File 770!

(It seems to be free of juvenile canines this year.)

#463 ::: janetl ::: (view all by) ::: March 31, 2018, 09:21 PM:

The lack of juvenile canines is going to make Hugo reading & voting so much more fun!

#464 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: April 01, 2018, 07:27 AM:

It's more operating system than hardware for Kindle apps, but that does tend to mask what the CPU is. And I have to use Wine to run a Kindle app on Linux.

It's not that hard to find software than can convert Kindle files to other formats, though copy-protection is a barrier, and some of the older ebook tech, nobody is selling current books for it.

I've no doubt that some lawyers will tell me that buying the Kindle version, and hacking the copy protection to be able to read it, is a dreadful and unforgivable crime. So they don't want me to pay the author. I wonder who is paying them.

#465 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 01, 2018, 10:20 AM:

I'm surprised at how hard it can be to track down stories.

Here's one that took a while-- I've got author and title now, but I'm curious about whether anyone else remembers it.

There are singing (ringing) trees, and rich people are pleased to have one in their gardens.

The trees are going extinct, and it turns out that they only breed in large groups, and no one can afford a large group. As I recall, this is presented as a problem without a solution.

#466 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: April 01, 2018, 07:32 PM:

xeger @ 452 and 458:

There's more Penric? I must go look.

Bujold has said elsewhere that the limited publishing locations are supposedly so that they don't complicate her taxes. Which, well, I'm not sure why putting it on something like Smashwords and having it propagate to all the main ebook sellers is complicated from that perspective, but I'm a consumer. A consumer who is frustrated that the stories aren't easily available to me.

The only reason I've bought them at all (through Barnes and Noble, since I refuse to give money to Amazon) is because I found a way to, ah, 'fix' them so that I could read them anywhere. I believe there is also a way to do the same thing for Amazon purchases, but I have no experience with it.

If you want any pointers to resources about that sort of thing, you can drop me an email at kesutt at the gmails.

P J Evans @ 462:

I saw the Hugo nominees and was also incredibly pleased at the lack of interference. And also at the quality of the works on it. And amazingly excited that Martha Wells is on the ballot twice!

I got myself a supporting membership this year so I'll be able to vote. I would like to go this year, especially since it's in my state, but not when a membership for two will equal or exceed the amount I'd pay for accommodation. Because, really.

#467 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 01, 2018, 08:48 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @465 -- Have you posted the question as a YASID request on rec.arts.sf.written? Usenet is dwindling, but there's still some traffic there.

#468 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 01, 2018, 09:47 PM:

#467 ::: Joel Polowin

I know the title now, but if I recall correctly, it took years for an answer to show up on rasfw.

This surprised me, since it turned out to be by a well-known sf author, and from an anthology with a striking cover.

It's "Ye That Have Sung" by Alan Dean Foster from With Friends Like These....

I will grant that it's a pretty awful title, or at least I find it almost impossible to remember.

In the course of looking it up this time I found out that there's a second anthology called Who Needs Enemies?.

#469 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: April 01, 2018, 11:42 PM:

It didn't even occur to me to look at the Hugos and interference. Good job, everyone.

#470 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 03:03 AM:

One of the problems of historic aircraft is that the airframe and engines need the correct maintenance, and regular maintenance. Eventually, things wear out. It was this problem that grounded the last flying Avro Vulcan.

A controversial solution has been revealed in Canada, one that has been applied for years to other aircraft. Will you get the chance to see this old plane flying?

Thankfully, not all old engines are so unusual.

#471 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 11:38 AM:

xeger @452: I just found out about Penric a couple of months ago. I've got three on my TBR pile. (I prefer paper—unfortunately, the first one, Penric's Demon, appears to be only available as very expensive (Uncle Hugo's wants $230 for theirs, and that's at the low end of what shows up on Amazon) signed first editions. :-\

Of the last two, I believe I have Mira's Last Dance on pre-order from Subterranian. (I need to double-check that.) Far as I can tell, The Prisoner of Limnos is only out in ebook? (This is a trend of which I do not approve.)

As for buying a Kindle, I have a (free) Kindle app on my Mac. (Which has gotten cranky about opening, but that probably has something to do with the paleolithic vintage of the machine.)

I suspect I'm doomed to do Limnos and Demon in ebook form. Feh. (Dude, POD, at least? Please??)

& 458: I'm not at all a fan of having everything I do online be attached to one megacorp

Go listen to Cory Doctorow on the topic of DRM; you'll feel less alone.

Dave Bell @464: hacking the copy protection to be able to read it, is a dreadful and unforgivable crime.

It is, in fact, a felony, I believe. Per the DMCA.

KeithS @466: 466 ::: KeithS

The Penric Series, which is a subset of her World of Five Gods. I enjoyed The Curse of Chalion; have read it twice, I think. ISTR finding Paladin of Souls disappointing, but that was during a period when I was having trouble with spec fic generally. I'm almost finished with The Hallowed Hunt, and I confess, I'm finding it a bit of a slog. (Are we going to do anything besides ride around from here to there, angsting about this or that threat??) I speculate that it was an early effort resurrected for revenue, and/or the editor was less competent/assertive than her folks over at Baen. Fortunately, the one Penric I've read so far finds her back in proper form.

#472 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 02:56 PM:

Jacque @ 471 ...
I'm almost finished with The Hallowed Hunt, and I confess, I'm finding it a bit of a slog. (Are we going to do anything besides ride around from here to there, angsting about this or that threat??)

Interesting! I just finished rereading The Hallowed Hunt, and enjoyed it much more this time around. I think it benefitted from my having reread the rest of her five gods books (barring the Penric books about which I despair) in close proximity.

#473 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 03:03 PM:

Jacque (471): Are we going to do anything besides ride around from here to there, angsting about this or that threat??

In a word, yes.

I rather like The Hallowed Hunt--especially the characters--but that does seem to be a minority opinion.

#474 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 03:27 PM:

Paladin of Souls is one of my favorite books, not just favorite Bujolds but favorites ever. I see a few weak points in it, but the strong points are so strong that they more than make up for it. But YMMV.

xeger (472) I also liked The Hallowed Hunt better on reread. The thing is (mild spoiler perhaps), the main character spent a long time being abused into complete control of his spirit animal, and since then has lived with the knowledge that any slip in that control or much display of personal ambition could be a death sentence. Granted, there's angst, but it is not irrational angst. He is very, very tightly buttoned down. If you're looking for big emotions and goals, you're not going to see them. When I reread watching for more subtle tells, I could see him changing as he reached beyond his closely-held life. But in terms of forward momentum, he is the anti-Miles.

And I'm very fond of Penric. I liked him okay the first time through, and he's grown on me with each additional tale.

KeithS (466) I'm also very happy to see Martha Wells on the ballot twice, for the Raksura series and Murderbot, both very highly recommended.

#475 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 05:26 PM:

Liking a thing better on reread is actually not unprecedented in my experience of Bujold. I just reread Diplomatic Immunity and Cryoburn, and enjoyed them much more this time, especially the latter. I remember that I bounced hard off of DI the first time.

(I just finished a global Vorkosigan reread; wonderousness all around. Suffering a bad case of "MOAR PLZ" is what prompted me to discover Penric.)

Maybe I should take the attitude that that's just how Bujold works....

#476 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 08:57 PM:

Here's a thought about Penric. I realized while reading Penric's Fox that one of the reasons I like Penric so much is that he's just so darned *decent*. I see a parallel with the way I feel about The Goblin Emperor. Characters who succeed because they treat others with kindness and respect, and therefore get assistance in return. Yay!

But then I wondered if there was something in play about subverting a gendered expectation. If the Penric character were a woman, would I find kindness and consideration noteworthy? Or would I think that to succeed, she'd have to be more bad-ass than that?

#477 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 10:16 PM:

My biggest problem with the Penric books is that I don't have a reliable way of knowing that there's a new one out. I missed one of the later ones for several months, because I hadn't seen a mention of it on social media* (which is how I learned about all the rest). I finally stumbled across it while looking for something else.

*I make a point of posting about them on FB and Twitter when I find them, to keep the news going. Some of my friends are very grateful for this habit.

#478 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 10:19 PM:

Speaking of mass re-reads, I'm doing one on Shadow Unit right now. Catching some interesting foreshadowing that I missed the first time around, with the benefit of knowing how things come out.

#479 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: April 02, 2018, 11:12 PM:

OtterB @ 476:

I agree that one of the main things about Penric is that he defies gendered expectations in both his behavior and in his looks. At the same time, any woman who would do the things he does would be quite a badass. For all of his willowy appearance, he is quite strong and athletic, and a good shot with a bow. While compassion and empathy are more traditionally feminine-coded markers, I'd think that anyone showing the same level as someone like Penric or Maia would be noteworthy, male or female. At least, I'd hope so.

Like you, I am very much drawn to Penric's fundamental decency — it's a character trait we don't always see enough of. That and his relationship with Desdemona, which is wonderfully sweet.

Mary Aileen @ 477:

The only way I ever found out about the Penric books in the first place was through social media. I think Bujold announces them on Goodreads, but I'm not there.

Also, bought the new book. Bumping it to the top of my to-read pile after I finish the book I'm reading now.

#480 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 01:50 AM:

Jacque: I've only read The Hallowed Hunt once, and also recall it as a bit of a slog. I'd advise you to give Paladin of Souls another chance, though.

I've been toying with the idea of a Hallowed Hunt re-read of my own, but I'm not going to read anything that isn't on the Hugo or related ballot for the next three or four months.

#481 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 04:46 AM:

I have a question for people in the publishing industry. What's up with the change in the default size of MMPBs? The last few I've bought have been enough taller than the old size (but not trade-paperback size) that they don't fit on my hand-built customized-for-MMPB bookshelves, and that's going to become a major pain very quickly.

#482 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 05:12 AM:

I bow my head in unabashed shame for not having actually posted a time and place, but last I recall, I'd only seen Cadbury Moose say "will be there" and with having spent about 10 minutes (well, maybe only five) trying to post the time & place for the File770 meetup, I actually went "meh" (then did not remember that I hadn't posted it, when I was back in my room in a different hotel)

#483 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 10:01 AM:

I didn't like Hallowed Hunt as much as the first two, but count me in for the "improves on re-read".

I adore Paladin of Souls, and if it doesn't work as well for you, I strongly suggest trying the audiobook. I'm extremely picky about my audiobooks (the voices have to be just right), and that one is terrific.

#484 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 10:56 AM:

Lee (481): The taller mmpb's have been around for a while (10+ years, I think), but only from one or two publishers. I see them mostly on the bestsellery type books--James Patterson, etc. They're very annoying.

#485 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 12:18 PM:

David Goldfarb @480: I'd advise you to give Paladin of Souls another chance, though.

I had Paladin in hardback, but was sufficiently frustrated with it that I sold it. I've now got the mmpb on order. Which reminds me I need to follow up; that 2-4 weeks the bookseller promised me has run out. Time to poke them, I think...

#486 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 12:34 PM:

Inge gets her books as audio books, and usually listens to them while going to sleep. As a result, there are a number of books I've heard incompletely: some parts I don't get to hear, some parts I hear once, and some parts I hear over and over again and am quite tired of.

That's how I've heard the Penric and Desdemona books. I've been going through them slowly myself, while I've done household chores and the like. Between listening to audio books and doing my regular reading, I have realized that there are a lot of details I've missed when reading, and I've learned to slow down. I get a lot more out of a book if I read it at story-telling speed, paying attention to character voice and visualizing settings.

I've also acquired a stronger sense of how very clunky some of the big-name authors are with regard to voice. I'm very fond of Zelazny, but I'm finding that most of his characters sound very much alike.

#487 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 02:43 PM:

Dave Bell, #470:

Here's hoping they get the turboprop-powered Vulcan airworthy by next April.

#488 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 05:30 PM:

IMO Hallowed Hunt had the very serious problem, on my first reading, of being not very much like the Curse/Paladin followup I was primed for.

On second reading, it is a very good book in its own right! It's just not, well, if you chart a line from Curse to Paladin, Hunt is somewhere off to one side of that line. I know people who had similar problems with the second season of The Wire, too: it's a jump, and if you're expecting a very tight sequel you are likely to be disappointed.

I suspect that the existence of the Penric stories improves this situation for the new reader: it's no longer two connected novels and some weird other thing in the same world, but rather a world with two independent series and a standalone novel.

#489 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: April 03, 2018, 07:41 PM:

I already have such a huge backlog of Bujold to read that I don't think I can justify buying even more right now.

By the way, I don't believe I ever thanked everyone here who gave me recommendations back in 2009 on where to start with Bujold. And it turns out that I had in fact read "Ethan of Athos" long before but did not remember anything of it except for the tyramine. So thank you, Paula Lieberman, dcb, Diatryma, Liza, albatross, Clifton Royston, OtterB, KeithS, Lee, and others.

#490 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 12:02 AM:

Disemvowel is the word of the day at Wiktionary.

#491 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 09:41 AM:

Allan Beatty @490: I am amused to see that one of the anagrams for "disemvowel" is "demiwolves". So is that an on-again off-again werewolf? Someone half and half like a mermaid or a faun? Just a really short wolf?

Do demiwolves disemvowel prey?

#492 ::: Danny Sichel ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 09:45 AM:

I've asked this on StackExchange and File770, and neither has (yet) proven fruitful, so I thought perhaps AKICIML.

In 1986, John Varley wrote a short satirical piece called "the Unprocessed Word" (available in his collection 'Blue Champagne') about the wonders of longhand and typewriters (as opposed to those newfangled 'word processor' gizmos). In it, he provided testimonials from three individuals whose experiences with typewriters-vs-computers supported his stance. These were "SK in Maine", "SR in Halifax", and "DT in Oakland".

SK is Stephen King. SR is Spider Robinson. I asked Varley directly who "DT" was, but he doesn't remember. Any suggestions?

#493 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 10:17 AM:

Danny Sichel, at File770 someone posted extensive excepts in THIS POST which appears to support the idea that DT was invented by Varley; apparently during the course of the story DT commits suicide and Varley inherits his stuff. It seems plausible, therefore, that DT didn't actually exist, although the other author-initials may have been real people. Suicide was (and still is, to a large extent) a taboo subject to mention (much less joke about) if it actually happened.

#495 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 10:39 AM:

In my inbox this morning from Subterranian Press: "We’ll be publishing The Prisoner of Limnos early next year."

Yay!

#496 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 10:44 AM:

My browser appears to have hung, so this will almost certainly turn out to be a duplicate:

In my inbox this morning from Subterranian Press: "We’ll be publishing The Prisoner of Limnos early next year."

Yay!

#497 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 12:03 PM:

AKICIML:

Forty-two years ago, I read a fantasy novel that I really liked. It will thus come as no surprise that title and author have faded from my retrievable ROM.

The theme is this: The (Tibetan, I think) Buddhist equivalent of the Devil has to stop the human race from extinguishing itself (and so putting him out of business) by accidental nuclear holocaust. He's unable to persuade his fellow devils, not even "the Molochomaves, for all of his Jewish head" (a phrase that did stick in my ROM) and so has resorted to employing a black, Buddhist mendicant monk in New York City.

What is it, and who's it by? Why have I never encountered it again in the past four decades?

Help!

#498 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 03:02 PM:

Fragano @497: for some reason that has me thinking of Isidore Haiblum's The Tsaddik of the Seven Wonders, though that's probably not right -- never actually read the whole book, but it's the right time period and it feels right.

#499 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 05:17 PM:

Fragano: I'm afraid I can't help, but it sounds right up my alley - if you get the answer, please post it here!

#500 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 09:18 PM:

A prolific SF writer living in Oakland would kind of have to be Robert Silverberg. I concur that the switch from "RS" to "DT" is because of the suicide angle.

#501 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 04, 2018, 09:50 PM:

Also Jack Vance, David -- he was quite prolific. Less prolific, you've got Marta Randall, Dick Lupoff, Marion Zimmer Bradley (not that much less prolific!), and a few others possible.

#502 ::: Danny Sichel ::: (view all by) ::: April 05, 2018, 01:56 AM:

Cassy@493, that would certainly explain why the maintainers of NESFA's 'Recursive Science Fiction List' couldn't identify DT (which is how i got into this in the first place).

#503 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 06, 2018, 05:40 PM:

More East Bay writers: H. H. Holmes, R. F. Nelson, T. Carr.

#504 ::: Robert Glaub ::: (view all by) ::: April 06, 2018, 07:21 PM:

I retired Tuesday after 39 years of federal service.

#505 ::: Robert Glaub ::: (view all by) ::: April 06, 2018, 07:22 PM:

I need help. May pay got messed and I need to pay rent and buy food and insulin.

paypal.me/RGlaub

#506 ::: Dave Harmon flags down the gnomes ::: (view all by) ::: April 06, 2018, 10:50 PM:

We do have a Robert Glaub who posts here, but the one at #504/505 has a fresh "view all by". Compare to this one, active as recently as 2013.

I think moderator inquiry is warranted here...

#507 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 07, 2018, 01:28 AM:

If this person were to post again, using the same E-mail address as before, I think that would serve as bona fides. Not requiring moderatorial intervention.

#508 ::: Robert Glaub ::: (view all by) ::: April 07, 2018, 06:45 AM:

I've known Patrick and Teresa for over twenty years.

#509 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: April 07, 2018, 07:16 PM:

Hi y'all. I aten't dead, but my husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer (early stage) over Christmas, so we've been busy.

#510 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: April 07, 2018, 08:04 PM:

Lila, I'm glad they caught it early. Best wishes for a favorable prognosis.

#511 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: April 07, 2018, 08:08 PM:

xeger, all the way up at #458: I bought the audiobooks of the Penric books since I have an Audible.com membership. They're quite good. But Audible is owned by Guess Who.

#512 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 07, 2018, 08:20 PM:

509
I hear the busy. Best wishes!

#513 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 12:10 AM:

Joel Polowin #507: Yes, this is an authentication issue. (That is, not "who is Robert Glaub" but "is this Robert Glaub?") The newest message from the new VAB at least says its at least not a drive-by.

It still looks bad to have the first messages from a blank VAB be asking for money, but given #508 I'd say the appropriate moderator intervention would be for one of them to contact Mr. Glaub offline or on sideband, and tell us if this is for real. In any case, it's not unheard-of for a regular here to appeal for aid, but it does need moderator consent.

#514 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 01:10 AM:

Robert Glaub @508: Post a message using the same E-mail address as Robert Glaub did before. That way, we'll have some reason to believe that you are that person.

#515 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 03:06 AM:

Joel,

I'm lucky, and maybe was a bit more careful all those years ago. I took steps, back in the last century, to set up an email address I control. It would be a major disaster for the UK's internet if something happened to break it. It's survived several changes to my internet service.

But email addresses do break and vanish.

#516 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 11:22 AM:

Dave Bell @515: It is not necessary for an E-mail address to be functional to use it as identification here.

#517 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 01:34 PM:

Robert Glaub, can you furnish details? A few additional words could help here.

#518 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 01:50 PM:

Hello, Robert. Was this a good retirement? I feel like I’m missing the nuances.

Kip, thank you for pinging me.

#519 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: April 08, 2018, 10:42 PM:

Fragano @497: a Google Books search on "for all his Jewish head" got me The Devil and W. Kaspar, by Benjamin Appel.

#520 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: April 09, 2018, 11:24 AM:

@Nancy Lebovitz: ah yes, the anthology that should have been titled With Printers Like These. (Something went wrong with the color balance, such that the chocolate ice cream looked like a Linda Blair product; I've seen the original, so I know it wasn't Whelan's error.)

@Devin: It's just not, well, if you chart a line from Curse to Paladin, Hunt is somewhere off to one side of that line. IIRC, we were told some time ago that LMB was planning to write about each of the Five Gods in a different part of their world; Paladin may have been anomalous because the character glimpsed in Curse wasn't ready to be set aside. I don't know whether she gave up on Father and Mother or didn't have an idea she liked enough to start with.

@Quill: demiwolves are werewolves that can only turn when it's necessary to the Plot. If they collect enough coupons, they get control over their turning.

A couple of interestingly strange links:
* Inside the world of instruction manuals. What they tell us about our world; the first was written (says the Beeb) by James Watt, to paste to his letter-copier.
* Darwin Comes to Town: How the Urban Jungle Drives Evolution The NPR review isn't 100% favorable, but it sounds interesting enough that it will probably go on the TBR pile.

#521 ::: Danny Sichel ::: (view all by) ::: April 10, 2018, 12:08 PM:

Fragano @ 497, by searching for "for all his Jewish head" rather than "for all *of* his Jewish head", I found "The Devil and W. Kaspar", by Benjamin Appel, 1977.

#522 ::: Danny Sichel ::: (view all by) ::: April 10, 2018, 12:11 PM:

how did I not see that it had been resolved before I posted. Human vision, bleh.

#523 ::: Robert Glaub ::: (view all by) ::: April 10, 2018, 01:21 PM:

Hi, Teresa.

I retired a week ago today after 39 years. I just spent a month in the hospital due to a badly infected foot. I almost lost the foot, I did lose a toe. Unfortunately I didn't have the sick leave to cover it so I lost a month's pay.

#524 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 10, 2018, 03:40 PM:

523
That sucks. (The month in the hospital, the loss of the toe, and the month's pay, all of them.)

#525 ::: Robert Glaub ::: (view all by) ::: April 10, 2018, 05:28 PM:

Teresa, you haven't seen me in a while.I've lost 100 pounds in the past two years.

#526 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 11, 2018, 09:36 AM:

HelenS # 519:

Thou hast found it!

I am most sincerely grateful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

#527 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: April 11, 2018, 01:24 PM:

Abi, have you heard [about] this one? Dutch 'singing road' closed after neighbours' complaints. tl;dr: rumble strips in Friesland played a local tune -- too loudly.

#528 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 11, 2018, 01:46 PM:

CHip: Reality has caught up with a "Thick & Thin" cartoon I drew for NEW PALS, back before the turn of the millennium.

#529 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 12, 2018, 03:38 PM:

Apropos of nothing: .

Offhand thoughts: AA's big mistake was handing out a blank check -- even a few restrictions would have gone a long way. (They're not the first or last to learn that lesson.)

The article doesn't say if AA tried at all to negotiate with their top fliers; I could believe they tried and failed, just because these guys clearly are the sort who "ruin it for the rest of us". Both were abusing the system and exploiting the airline well beyond luxury, let alone need. And I note that AA only revoked 3 of 28 passes, which suggests that the others weren't nearly as much of a problem.

#530 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 12, 2018, 03:41 PM:

Oh dear, my link seems to have collapsed to a point. I didn't think the gravity of the case was that extreme! Here: The rise and demise of the AAirpass, American Airlines’ $250k lifetime ticket.

#531 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 13, 2018, 07:51 PM:

Plotter 1: So, we meet in the glen at moonrise!

Plotter 2: Um...the moon is like four days old.

P1: So what?

P2: So moonrise was hours ago, fool! In broad daylight.

P1:...

P1: So, we meet in the glen at moonset!

P2: *sigh*

#BetterFantasyDialogue

#532 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 13, 2018, 10:00 PM:

Fragano: And it's reissued as an e-book? I'm definitely gonna check that out. The author sounds interesting, and it looks like he went from writing gritty crime novels to writing satiric SF.

Xopher:
And what about crescent moons?

Most writers seem at least to grasp that the moon doesn't go from crescent to half or half to full in the course of a night, but... There seem to be a number who blithely assume that the crescent moon could be rising at sunset, or overhead at midnight. HELLO, DON'T MAKE ME DRAW YOU A DIAGRAM!

#533 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 13, 2018, 11:15 PM:

Yeah, artists do that kind of thing all the time. Along with putting two moons in the sky right near each other and in different phases (facepalm).

But I was really coming for the writers who act like moonrise is a fixed time after sunset each night. LOOK AT THE DAMN SKY FOOLS.

#534 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 14, 2018, 11:00 AM:

Years'n'years ago, I wrote something like that into a story I was working on, as a clear indication for the astute about what the time was. Something like "a crescent moon hung low in the western sky", intending to mean "a couple of hours after midnight". I am not astute at the moment.

#535 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: April 14, 2018, 04:27 PM:

Once found myself correcting the phase of the moon in a drawing I'd done many years before. It brought peace of mind.

#536 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 14, 2018, 06:35 PM:

My copy of The Hobbit has "an early sketch by the author" as its cover art, showing "Death of Smaug". Along the left edge is a handwritten annotation: 'The moon should be a _crescent_: it was only a few nights after the _New Moon_ on "Durin's Day".'

#537 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 14, 2018, 09:01 PM:

There are two different crescents (I think): the new Moon crescent, which liturgically I call the Bow, and the old Moon crescent, which I call the Sickle.

They're both largely daytime objects. The Bow follows the Sun and the Sickle leads it, so moonrise of the Sickle is just before sunrise and moonset of the Bow is just after sunset.

Depending on how broadly you're defining a crescent, it doesn't seem like one (either kind) could be hanging low in the west a couple of hours after midnight, but I'm not exactly in the best astuteness condition myself at the moment, so I'm not sure I'm right.

#538 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: April 14, 2018, 11:50 PM:

Xopher@537:

At midnight, the full moon is overhead, either half moon is on the horizon, and any crescent is on the other side of the world. A couple of hours after that, the Bow is even further below the horizon, and the Sickle may just be rising in the east. There's no way for a crescent to be in the west at that time.

#539 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: April 14, 2018, 11:53 PM:

Me@538:

Unless, that is, you're in the polar regions during the long winter night. My mental models aren't quite sure what's possible there.

#540 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: April 15, 2018, 11:45 AM:

Xopher, Clifton, et al.: I am reasonably sure (based on one seeing -- the movie wasn't worth repeating) that the moon in Splash is out of whack -- something like being right-two-thirds lit in NYC (i.e., a few days past full) and a few days later being left-half lit (i.e., first quarter, 2.5 weeks later). Both of these were sky shots, so it wasn't as if the 2nd unit would have had any difficulty getting correct shots to be edited in. (It's also possible the 2nd shot was upside-down -- it was brief enough that even then I couldn't be sure of craters, let alone 34 years later.)
Or I could just have misread passing shots....

Dave Harmon @ 530: I'd love to know whether AA's calculation of its "loss" has anything to do with reality. As in, how often could it have sold those seats for ready money, or carried extra cargo (a stab -- I don't know how much contingent cargo business there is), or expended fewer fancy meals (how fancy?), etc. I'd also love to know what kind of physiology can cope with that much travel, even first class; did these people not need to be productive every now and then? It does seem shortsighted of AA's lawyers not to specify that pass rights were non-transferable, but whoever made that goof is probably long-retired.

#541 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: April 15, 2018, 03:42 PM:

At the poles, you should be able to get a full moon, and it will generally be closeish to the horizon.

According to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbit_of_the_Moon#/media/File:Lunar_Orbit_and_Orientation_with_respect_to_the_Ecliptic.tif

I'd say that at midwinter at the poles, the moon can be at an elevation of 23.4 +- 5.14 degrees. It will rise and set each night (since the moon's angle to the ecliptic is less than the earth's axial tilt)

You will generally not see the crescent moons, as they will be 'near' the sun and below the horizon. (Specifically, at an elevation of -23.4 +- 5.14 degrees)

#542 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: April 15, 2018, 05:31 PM:

@me: apparently I don't even remember my hands without the little embroidered gloves on; the \left/-two-thirds was lit in the first shot, and the \right/ half in the second.

#543 ::: J Homes ::: (view all by) ::: April 15, 2018, 06:19 PM:

Xopher @531 and subsequent,

Even Jack Vance, who I understand to have been a blue water sailor and should have known better, stumbled on this one. In The Green Pearl, the second of the Lyonesse books, he has Melancthe singing on the rocks of the shore, at midnight as the half-moon waning sets. Er, if it's setting at midnight, it's the half moon waxing.

J Homes

#544 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: April 15, 2018, 07:51 PM:

CHip @540 ...
I'd also love to know what kind of physiology can cope with that much travel, even first class; did these people not need to be productive every now and then?

I know of people who swear that the only way/time when they can be productive is on long airplane flights ... takes all kinds.

#545 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 04:12 AM:

CHiP @ #540, xeger @ #544:

One illustrious year, I spent ~130 days traveling for work. Well, I spent ~130 work-days days at customer sites, I probably only spent ~20-40 days actually travelling. And that mostly by train, and usually for less than 3h per trip.

The one thing it did boost was my reading time, didn't have a laptop so really couldn't work on the train, but I could read. And since I travelled first class, if it was a morning train I had a decent brekkie, and if it was an evening train, I had dinner.

I have ended up writing most of a toy workflow server on trains, though (mix of commuter trains and long-distance trains). I say "toy" because I don't believe it's ever been used for production.

#546 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 10:10 AM:

CHip #540: I'd love to know whether AA's calculation of its "loss" has anything to do with reality.

Well, they're surely inflated, but there are certainly overhead costs per passenger, some of which they mentioned. And any time first-class was full, he was displacing a paying first-class passenger.

#547 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 10:28 AM:

Xopher Halftongue @533: putting two moons in the sky right near each other and in different phases (facepalm)

They're being lit by binary suns at differing points in their orbits. ::Holds cap and runs::

&@537: The Bow follows the Sun and the Sickle leads it

That's wonderful imagery. Shame I'll never be able to remember it.

#548 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 10:57 AM:

Jacque @547:

The ways I remember it is that the wiccan "triple goddess" symbol, )O(, is in time order: waxing crescent/new moon, full moon, waning crescent/old moon.

Also, the physics dictates that the lit portion of the moon, be it the lit crescent or the fully rounded part of a gibbous moon, must face the Sun.

In other words, if you shoot an arrow with the bow of the crescent moon, it'll hit the Sun, always.

The more lit the moon, the farther it is from the Sun in the sky.

#549 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 11:27 AM:

on the moon and its phases:
light half/dark half: the waxing moon and the waning moon have the lighted part facing the full moon, as in Buddha Buck's little picture.

#550 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 11:33 AM:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2358&v=zCF6wAa50F4

Quite an interesting lecture about Bradbury's connection to the Inklings and related writers like Chesterton and MacDonald. I'd never thought about Bradbury's metaphysics.

At the end, in the questions, Bradbury's story "The Man" came up.

I remembered the story as being about a spaceship captain who wanted personal contact with Jesus, who keeps getting born on different planets. He's chasing Jesus and ignoring people who need help. He thinks he'll eventually succeed, but he's obviously wrong.

In the lecture, the story is described as being about a spaceship captain who's chasing Jesus to murder Him. After he's headed away from a planet where Jesus was killed recently, some of his crew stay behind, and are told "He's still here".

I think my version is serviceable, but the version from the lecture is better. Were two versions of the story published, or did I hallucinate mine?

#551 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 11:59 AM:

CHip @540 ...

I'd also love to know what kind of physiology can cope with that much travel, even first class; did these people not need to be productive every now and then?

There are some people whose prime "value" lies in showing their face everywhere. And who, every time they actually do anything, impede the real work, which is all done by underlings/hirelings. Not to name names.

#552 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 12:22 PM:

Nancy:
I don't know which was the actual version, but I think your remembered version is substantially better, and true to several Christian parables.

#553 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 12:27 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @550 -- no sign of there being two different versions of it, and it's a pretty well known story (in THE ILLUSTRATED MAN and S IS FOR SPACE). I don't have a copy in hand, but I'll dig it out of my storage locker and check. Sounds to me very much like two different readings of the same story rather than two different versions: each reader does read a different story, after all.

#554 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 01:26 PM:

Buddha Buck @548: Oh, that might actually work! Thank you!

I mostly feel proud of myself that I can tell whether it's waxing or waning; never occurred to me to map it to the location of the Sun.

(There are reasons why, when asked about my religion, I refer to myself as a "lapsed Pagan." But also mostly because I think it's funny.)

#555 ::: Pfusand ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 01:32 PM:

What I learned about the phases of the moon is DOC in the Northern hemisphere, which is the same as the )O( above, and COD for the Southern hemisphere.

#556 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 04:02 PM:

Chris 538: That's what I thought, but I'm a little under the weather right now. And 539: luckily, in the polar regions during the long winter night, hardly any conspirators want to meet in the glen!

CHip 540: The prize for "worst lunar occurences in SFF film" must go to Ladyhawke, where they capture the wolf under a full moon because they have to get him to the city by the next morning in time for a total solar eclipse.

J Homes 543: That sounds like it could have been a mixup between "waxing" and "waning," but what do I know? I do know people who've had trouble remembering which is which. One guy even told me he couldn't remember which was which of "don" and "doff." I explained that they're short for "do on" and "do off." I had no idea whether that was the correct etymology, but he just needed a mnemonic, and his eyes got very big.

I love being able to help people out.

Jacque 547: @533: Yeah, no. No binary suns, just one moon. The sky is almost a character in that movie, so I can be sure.
@537: What Buddha says.

Pfusand 555: It never occurred to me that the phases of the moon would be reversed in the Southern Hemisphere, and I have to say that doesn't sound right even now. But I'm a little fuddled and could be wrong.

#557 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 04:12 PM:

Pfusand, Xopher, @555-6:

I've heard that the moon is upside down in the sky in the southern hemisphere, but that still doesn't map in my mind to (O) instead of )O(. I'd have to see it. Somehow I don't think it's |O| at the equator.

What I see, mentally, is that the moon and sun will be in the northern sky, not the southern, except near sun/moon rise/set, where it'll be in the east/west south. Like in my hemisphere, but with north/south reversed.

More importantly, the new moon will still be "horns up" in the western sky shortly after sunset, and the old moon will be "horns up" in the eastern sky shortly before sunrise.

#558 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 04:18 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @550: The story is available here, on page 41 of the pdf -- the links in the contents page didn't work for me, so that should make it easier to find if you have the same problem. The lecturer is 100% wrong -- the captain says he'll ask Jesus for some peace and quiet if he finds him, and nobody has said that Jesus was murdered on the planet, just that they couldn't say where he was. Your reading is justified by the text: the lecturer's is not.

#559 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 07:58 PM:

Moon phases: My own, northern-hemisphere mnemonic is that the waxing moon's "round side" fits into my right hand, while the waning moon's fits into my left hand. This keys into the dexter/sinister mythology, so I remember it.

Other lunar atrocities can be found in games: Minecraft has its moon and sun permanently fixed opposite each other, yet the moon still has phases. (And even though the moon is square, the shadow line is still rounded for gibbous and crescent. ;-) ) Terraria has moon phases too, but also has "blood moons" and "solar eclipses" which can happen at almost any phase.

#560 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 08:19 PM:

J Homes @ #543:

That one sounds to me like the author wanted the poetic effect of the moon waning, setting, and otherwise generally declining, and was prepared to put prosaic reality aside in order to get it.

#561 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 09:44 PM:

If you could afford to spend $250,000 on travel, way back when the program started, then maybe you didn't have to worry quite as much as most of us do about being productive.

#562 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 16, 2018, 09:59 PM:

#558 ::: Tom Whitmore

Thank you for the link. The actual story is somewhere between my version and the lecturer's.

It's not clear why the spaceship captain was on the planet-- possibly prospecting.

When he discovers that Jesus was on the planet, he becomes as greedy and obnoxious about getting contact as he is about everything else.

He was willing to kill other explorers. Perhaps that's where the lecturer got the idea that that the captain was trying to kill Jesus.

We get the description of the asymptotic hunt.

The lecturer had the punchline (Jesus is still on the planet) which I'd forgotten.

The bit about "The Man" is at about 1:08 of the the lecture, which is full of interesting detail which I don't trust as much as I used to.

More Bradbury errata: There's a story in The Martian Chronicles about fantasy authors and characters fleeing to Mars because all such have been cleansed from earth.

The magazine version (2nd issue of F&SF) includes Lovecraft, but the paperback doesn't. I don't know whether that bit has ever been reprinted.

#563 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 09:29 AM:

My own mnemonic for the Moon is "If it looks like it is coming, it is really going, and if it looks like it's going, it is really coming." No idea where I picked it up.

Of course, that only works if one's native language reads left to right.

#564 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 10:54 AM:

Xopher Halftongue @556: The prize for "worst lunar occurences in SFF film" must go to Ladyhawke, where they capture the wolf under a full moon because they have to get him to the city by the next morning in time for a total solar eclipse.

Well, now, I'd actually give that one a pass: the moon is visually full on the nights before and after the actual full moon. I mean, if you look really close, you can see the ragged edge on one side, but it's full for all practical purposes. Now, having it at zenith at midnight; that would be unacceptable. Don't remember the movie well enough to say where in the sky they had it.

It never occurred to me that the phases of the moon would be reversed in the Southern Hemisphere, and I have to say that doesn't sound right even now.

They wouldn't be reversed, just upside down? Which is weird enough, thankyouverymuch. Oh, no wait. Okay, I'm confused.

#565 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 11:03 AM:

The thing that annoys me most about Ladyhawke is that the prophecy is stupidly worded. "A night without a day and a day without a night." Wrong. That's not what happens. It should be "A night without a dusk and a day without a dawn". THAT'S what happens.

(I know the music also annoys people, but it's of its time, and I can live with it.)

#566 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 11:45 AM:

Jacque @564:

If the moon is gibbous tonight, then it is in the wrong part of the sky for there to be a solar eclipse in the timeframe of plus or minus a week. A lunar eclipse, maybe, but not a solar eclipse.

Solar eclipses only happen during the dark/new moon.

This thread about what happens in the night sky (and how its misinterpreted in fiction because of people being unaccustomed to it) makes me wonder about using the night sky for time-keeping.

For instance, if you can see the moon at night, you can estimate how long its been since moonrise by its position, and you can estimate its age by how full it is, and thus approximately what time it rose. So by looking at it, someone who has chosen to learn and practice that skill should be able to tell the time simply by looking at the moon.

Similarly, I wonder how accurate and precise a person could tell the local sidereal time by looking at Ursa Major, which would act like a giant hour-hand on a sidereal 24h clock.

But if you put a character who routinely looks at the sky at night and tells you the time, it would be seen as unbelievable.

#567 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 11:55 AM:

Buddha Buck @566: Why is that any more ridiculous than looking at where the sun is in the sky to determine the (approximate) time? And people do have that in books, without anyone thinking it's weird. It's just a slightly different skill-set.

#568 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 12:14 PM:

Lunar eclipses can only occur during a full moon.

Further lunar neepery: the terminator (the dividing line between the lighted portion of the moon and the non-lighted) is always perpendicular to the path of the sun.

#569 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 12:26 PM:

Jacque 564: What Buddha said. If it had been off by one night, I wouldn't have sweated it. But it was off by TWO WEEKS.

#570 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 02:03 PM:

Buddha Buck @566: If the moon is gibbous tonight, then it is in the wrong part of the sky for there to be a solar eclipse in the timeframe of plus or minus a week.

Oh. Right. Solar eclipse = new moon /= full moon. Duh. "That's entirely different." </litella>

#571 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 02:05 PM:

...so, if the Moon between Sun and Earth is a solar eclipse, why then is not the Earth between Sun and Moon an Earth eclipse? Huh? Huh??

#572 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 02:35 PM:

Jacque (571): Because it's not the Earth that is eclipsed.

#573 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 02:42 PM:

Me @539, eric @541:

It seems I was only halfway wrong about near-polar moon phases. You won't see a crescent in the west at midnight in the winter, but in the summer midnight twilight, you may well have one in the (north/south)west.

#574 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 05:01 PM:

I do all right estimating the time by shadows as long as the streets are oriented so I can find the directions... and as long as I remember Daylight Savings Time, which is really annoying. There's a particular light pole right next to a bus stop my students use, and I like seeing the straight north-south shadow and knowing it's noon (or not).

I think that the moon-clock is more difficult because it requires two pieces of information rather than one. We may be eliding the which-way-is-south part of sun-clocks.

#575 ::: Erik Nelson ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 06:57 PM:

Jacque at 571:
An eclipse of the earth is what happens when the sun passes between the moon and the earth.

#576 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 17, 2018, 09:11 PM:

Erik Nelson #575: An eclipse of the earth is what happens when the sun passes between the moon and the earth.

Can't resist: What is this "between" you speak of? :-)
Earth-moon distance: ~250,000 miles; Solar diameter: ~864,000 miles

#577 ::: J Homes ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 12:22 AM:

Jacque @571 et al,

Dons "more pedantic than thou" hat.

If we are being that pedantic, there is no such thing as a solar eclipse. An eclipse is when the observed body has fallen into the shadow of another and so cannot be seen by the reflected light. It's not reflected light we see the sun by.

The phenomenon that, quite rightly, some of you were wowed by recently is strictly speaking an occultation, rather than an eclipse.

Doffs hat.

But "Solar Eclipse" is quite firmly entrenched, and I don't think we'll see the usage change.

J Homes.

#578 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 01:49 AM:

#575 ::: Erik Nelson

Barefootz?

#579 ::: Elina Thomas ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 08:29 AM:

Good to hear!

#580 ::: lorax ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 09:03 AM:

Eric Nelson @575:

An eclipse of the earth is what happens when the sun passes between the moon and the earth.

No, that's an apocalypse.

#581 ::: Jacque sees likely spam ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 10:22 AM:

Elina Thomas also has another one in the "Adventures in being me" thread.

#582 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 01:57 PM:

Now and then, we have discussed how equipment the U.S. military doesn't need any more is made available to domestic law-enforcement agencies. My interest has been piqued by a Detroit News story, Michigan town’s feud over military gear gets ugly.

Thetford Township — The two-man police department in this rural community outside Flint has amassed a massive amount of surplus military equipment over the last decade.[...]The township supervisor and a trustee said the police have stymied their attempts to find out what equipment they have, where it’s located and why some of it has been given away. The police didn’t keep track of what they had or what they had given away, according to a township audit last year.

One may reasonably ask, as the township trustees have, what use this tiny police department could possibly have for a million dollars worth of military gear.

What's needed is fanfiction.

No, hear me out.

Someone should write a scenario in which a Thretford Township resident is rescued from a predicament by intrepid officers using a hydroseeder and a forklift.

Other items available for such a scenario? To quote the Detroit News, the stash "includes mine detectors and Humvees, tractors and backhoes, [...] motorized carts and a riding lawnmower. The landlocked township also has gotten boat motors and dive boots."

So I'm picturing something like Thunderbirds, but set in rural Michigan, where the day is saved again and again by equipment that just happens to be perfect for whatever seemingly-improbable situation writers dream up.

#583 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 05:41 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @578: For me, it's page 18 of Tom Weller's immortal Science Made Stupid: How to Discomprehend the World Around Us.

Eclipses
An eclipse of the moon occurs when the sun passes between the earth and the moon. [Illustration]
An eclipse of the sun occurs when the shadow of the earth falls on the sun. [Illustration]
An eclipse of the earth occurs when you put your hands over your eyes. [Illustration]

#584 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 05:45 PM:

And in unrelated news, I've started a new series (hopefully) over at NEW PALS: "A Child's Garden of Robots".
Sample follows:

THE LITTLE FRIEND

I have a metal playmate Papa made when I took ill
He fetches things I cannot reach, and brings my morning pill
He tells me what’s on telly, and he wheels me on the green,
And he helps me keep my dining room and playroom good and clean.

When he stands right beside me, he comes just up to my chin,
But he can touch the ceiling when he squeezes himself thin
And he can lift my bed up just by spreading out quite squat
And he can make me go to bed, if I want to or not!

One morning, I woke up before the clock was telling five
And saw him there beside me, very still, his eyes alive.
He tracked each movement that I made, and hummed and clicked inside,
I asked if all was well. "Oh yes," my metal friend replied.

My metal playmate’s my best friend. He's with me every day
He's stood by me, although my other friends have gone away.
My life would be so dull without the truest friend I've seen.
And Papa says he’ll make a girl for me when I’m thirteen!

Avoid the rush! Read it now! Be the first to comment in, I dunno, a year!

#585 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2018, 05:45 PM:

And in unrelated news, I've started a new series (hopefully) over at NEW PALS: "A Child's Garden of Robots".
Sample follows:

THE LITTLE FRIEND

I have a metal playmate Papa made when I took ill
He fetches things I cannot reach, and brings my morning pill
He tells me what’s on telly, and he wheels me on the green,
And he helps me keep my dining room and playroom good and clean.

When he stands right beside me, he comes just up to my chin,
But he can touch the ceiling when he squeezes himself thin
And he can lift my bed up just by spreading out quite squat
And he can make me go to bed, if I want to or not!

One morning, I woke up before the clock was telling five
And saw him there beside me, very still, his eyes alive.
He tracked each movement that I made, and hummed and clicked inside,
I asked if all was well. "Oh yes," my metal friend replied.

My metal playmate’s my best friend. He's with me every day
He's stood by me, although my other friends have gone away.
My life would be so dull without the truest friend I've seen.
And Papa says he’ll make a girl for me when I’m thirteen!

Avoid the rush! Read it now! Be the first to comment in, I dunno, a year!

#586 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 08:27 AM:

Clifton #532: My recollection is that it was pretty good satire of Cold War tensions. Not the first "devil turned to the good" story I've read, but one of the best.

#587 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 08:27 AM:

Clifton #532: My recollection is that it was pretty good satire of Cold War tensions. Not the first "devil turned to the good" story I've read, but one of the best.

#588 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 11:21 AM:

We live in an amazing future.

One in which an email yesterday from my local medical marijuana dispensary contained the following:


10% Off Everything In Store On 4.20
Join us in store on Friday 4/20/18 to celebrate and get 10% off your entire purchase!

*This discount is only valid for in store purchases on Friday, April 20, 2018 and cannot be stacked with any other discounts.


The voice of my father in the back of my head, bewailing a world in in which ganja discounts are being advertised, is very loud.

So is the voice of Peter Tosh, demanding his cut of the advertising revenue.

#589 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 03:52 PM:

Hey, weed advertizing constitutes 70% of the revenue for some of our local alternative newspapers.

#590 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 06:36 PM:

Xopher @ 556: think of what the Moon would look like if you stood on your head; then remember silly childhood (or whatever) discussions about people on the other side of the world walking around upside down. Note that I'm kicking myself for not having looked at this properly to remember (especially on the 2nd trip, when I spent a fair amount of time in rural areas with good seeing.)

Dave Harmon @ 546: I acknowledged some overhead -- but I'm asking what is the true marginal cost of one more passenger (and, to your point, how often first class is sold out with people still wanting that flight/class); ISTM that the article was handwaving and/or taking debatable claims as facts.

@various: if this character was racking up 2,000,000 miles/year (real miles, not the minimum-mileage that flyer programs used to credit), that's over 4000 hours/year in planes. (Cruise speed is 525-550mph; climbing is slower and taxiing takes time but doesn't contribute to miles, so average 500mph is probably high, especially adding in waiting to start taxiing.) There are only 8766 hours in the average year; how well does he sleep on planes, how does he cope with that much noise and dry air, how does he stay healthy with that much recycled air? I'm not asking about his productivity (or others' productivity in his absence), but his physical condition after that kind of regimen; maybe he's seriously atypical, maybe the 2million was a significant exaggeration or a 1-time case, ...

#591 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 09:51 PM:

I am here (even though I haven't finished it yet!) to tell you all that Cat Valente's Space Opera is so so so amazing and you should all read it! That is all.

#592 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 10:54 PM:

The new Lost In Space on Netflix is surprisingly good. Six episodes in, it's engrossing and quite moving in spots.

I remember the original quite well of course, and the homage portions are fun, but this is best when it turns the original show's tropes around.

#593 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2018, 11:31 PM:

Clifton, I'm halfway through Space Opera. If it sticks the landing, it's on my Hugo ballot next year!

#594 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2018, 01:05 AM:

A little while ago, I realized that the best thing I can say about any series is that it sticks the landing. For series with ends, anyway, and sets of books that are series-shaped but not as series as series are.

(It is late, I am le tired, and my thinky conversations involve a loooot of gestures and personal shorthand.)

#595 ::: Tim May ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2018, 07:20 AM:

Jacque @ #571: I think a lunar eclipse on Earth is a solar eclipse on the Moon, and a solar eclipse on Earth is an Earth eclipse on the Moon (although only a small portion of the Earth is actually eclipsed).

#596 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2018, 11:25 AM:

A little while ago, I realized that the best thing I can say about any series is that it sticks the landing. For series with ends, anyway, and sets of books that are series-shaped but not as series as series are.

(It is late, I am le tired, and my thinky conversations involve a loooot of gestures and personal shorthand.)

#597 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2018, 06:01 PM:

Cat Stevens driving as fast as he could to stay out of the solar eclipse...

#598 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2018, 08:17 PM:

Cassy B: It *totally* sticks the landing! I was tearing up.

#599 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 10:59 AM:

HLN: Area retiree is coming up on a year since Mom was found helpless on the floor with what was eventually found to be pneumonia. Much retrospect-ing has been done about how that situation could have been handled better. Every instinct, including many acquired here, said then to either call 911 or head for the ER, but Mom was adamant that we do neither. She wanted to make an appt. with her doctor, and by then the office was closed. It wasn't till next morn that I had a rush of brains to the head, called that office at 8 sharp and asked the advice of a nurse, who said get her to the ER, so armed with this I prevailed and off we went to the hospital. So at least I was part of the chain of events that saved her.
My sticking point had been that I have major body-sovereignty and consent issues from way back, not to mention some worries about my own finances that she has some control over, and was tired from travel myself. Also I didn't fully realize how much of Mom's mental powers were compromised--she now remembers nothing of that day. At least she now checks in with one of her every friends every morning and evening.
If I had it to do over, I might have conspired with my friends that I step outside, call 911 and we all act like we didn't know who did it, and the medics could take over; I can't come up with anything better right now. So I am asking for the help of others here, for figuring out what to do when someone obviously needs emergency care and thinks they don't, and you don't want to tick them off (which last danger might have been exaggerated by me then) but have to do something. Anyone out there have ideas?

#600 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 11:11 AM:

Ok, everyone, go forth and read Space Opera by Valente. Just finished it, and it will be on my Hugo Ballot next year; I can't imagine I'll read five better novels. And I'm *not* a pop-music nerd (I'm woefully clueless about such things; I didn't listen to much pop music until I was an adult) but I *still* loved it even knowing I was probably missing 9/10ths of the references.

#601 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 11:18 AM:

Angiportus (599): Could you have left a callback message with her doctor's service at the time? That might have gotten you a medical practioner's word to go to the ER that night instead of the next morning. My insurance company has a "nurse line" for "should I seek further help?" questions, but not all of them do.

#602 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 11:57 AM:

Angiportus: Another possibility, depending on where you are, is a local "urgent-care" center (AKA "Doc in a Box"). They're not as expensive as an ER, but they'll send you to one if it's needed. They're open 24-7, too.

It can be very hard to get around the consent issues on something like this. You now have an extra data point to help convince yourself in the future, and the cost wasn't too great.

#603 ::: Jenny Islander ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 01:26 PM:

Yay! Whatever was causing McAfee to throw a tizzy whenever I tried to read here has gone away!

#604 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 03:49 PM:

CHip 590: The Ranger and the Hobbit, having awakened in a small room they-know-not-where after they-know-not-how-long, have been walking all day. As the Sun sets, the Moon rises.

R: *stares at Moon* Oh.
H: Oh?
R: Oh, as in "Oh, shit."
H: Why?
R: Does the moon look a little funny to you?
H: *looks* It does, at that.
R: It's upside down.
H: Upside...down? How can the Moon be...?
R: The note in the room said "Go South." We've been walking toward the zenith. But we're in the Southern Hemisphere! We've just spent ten hours walking the wrong way!
H: ...
H: Well, at least it's Autumn!
R: Huh?
H: We might have been walking for fourteen hours!
R: *glares balefully*

Not quite as snappy as the "Moonrise" dialogue, methinks, but an editor could probably punch it up a bit.

#605 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 04:08 PM:

Angiportus: Responding correctly in an emergency is a skill. One can get better at it through reading, training, and experience. Jim Macdonald's medical posts on this blog are a great starting point. Our gracious hosts are excellent examples. If anything bad were to happen to me, I'd prefer to be staying at the Nielsen Hayden's. They are more aware than the average bear.

#606 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 05:10 PM:

Mary Eileen, Tom Whitmore, Tom B, thanks. I will keep these things in mind. I did read the posts, and think there's grist for a few more such threads out there. E.g., consent.

#607 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 07:27 PM:

Angiportus: I agree consent is important. Does your mom have a living will? She should know that her wishes, when it comes to medical treatment, are documented and that they will be respected.

I would draw a line between your mom having control over what is done to her, and having control over where and when. It is normal for people to not want to be a burden on others. A friend of mine sliced his leg open in an accident. He got himself to the ER and was standing in line with a growing pool of blood around his feet when two orderlies grabbed him and whisked him in. Obviously he meant well but it was better for him to get treated immediately and not make such a big mess on the walkway, even if it wasn't his choice.

#608 ::: Erik Nelson ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 07:36 PM:

Xopher at 597: He would have to move very fast.

In the most recent solar eclipse:

2410mph in Western Oregon
1747mph in central Nebraska
1462mph in Western Kentucky
1502mph near Charleston SC

according to http://eclipse2017.org/blog/2016/11/27/how-fast-is-the-shadow-moving-across-the-us-during-the-eclipse/

#609 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 09:02 PM:

Yes, Mom has the paperwork done... that I know of...I don't have mine done due to uncertainty about certain very important objects. I imagine we will be discussing this on my next visit. Currently she is back to being the healthiest of the family.
Cat Stevens? Another one whose words never quite made sense.

#610 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2018, 09:07 PM:

609
Living wills aren't about who gets what, but about about what you will allow in medical treatment.
(I did one last fall. Doesn't require a lawyer in my state, but does require at least one person to back up your wishes. And a notary for your signature.)

#611 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 01:37 AM:

Angiportus:
The complicating matter with the question of consent you were struggling with in this situation is cognitive capability.

Someone who's going through a medical event that's severely impairing their mental abilities is not well equipped to make good decisions, and may be unable to even recognize that they are cognitively impaired, precisely because they're cognitively impaired.

The most familiar analogy is probably the case of someone who's four-sheets-to-the-wind drunk - we've most of us seen that situation often enough, in person or at least in TV or media, to understand that 1) the drunk person's protestations that they're not drunk at all can be safely ignored, 2) they're not capable of making good decisions at that point, and 3) other people may need to override their consent and decisions in ways that would not be acceptable in normal circumstances - for example, snatching away or hiding their car keys, or trying to prevent them from leaving with the very creepy guy they just met.

We don't usually get good previews on the necessity of doing similar things in situations involving medical impairment, stroke, dementia, etc.

I think you did about as well as most people do in this situation. I know my family put off getting a neurological consult for my mom for far too long, because she had long been very independent and we were all really uncomfortable at the idea of forcing her into anything. I was just talking about this with a friend at lunch today, who's spending a lot of time caring for her mom who's had (probably) a series of strokes and micro-strokes.

In some ways, this might be a blessing in disguise because it's forcing you to really think about it before you run up against it in a truly dire situation - e.g. if your mom has plainly had something like a stroke and is disoriented *but* has good language skills, is physically functioning, and is insisting that she is perfectly fine and nothing is wrong.

#612 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 08:13 AM:

Angiportus, depends on family dynamics, but perhaps your mom would be amenable to an argument of "It may not be a major issue, but I am worried and for my peace of mind can we get it checked out tonight?"

My husband did this for me once when it was snowing and I wasn't sure about going out in it and had a bad case of "this is too much trouble, I will wait until tomorrow or maybe the next day" but he didn't like the sound of my cough. I had pneumonia. Not having the energy or the will to deal with it was one of the symptoms of the problem.

I agree that consent can be hard to navigate. I deal with this occasionally with my adult daughter with special needs. There are many things she's perfectly capable of deciding for herself, but also some where either her comprehension of the current situation or her ability to understand future consequences are insufficient. She doesn't get to opt out of getting dental cavities filled, for example.

#613 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 03:41 PM:

Angiportus re "living will"...

Actually what would have been still more helpful to have in this situation is what is usually called "Medical power of attorney." That would be a document your mom can fill out while healthy and in sound mind, specifically authorizing you as able to make medical decisions and consult with doctors on her behalf if she is ill and temporarily unable to do so herself. This can be important both for convincing doctors that you can legally speak for her - and see her medical records, which otherwise they might not be allowed to show you! - and for convincing yourself that you have the right to when you know you should.

An "Advance Health-care Directive" aka "Living will" is also useful, but those documents tend to be more focused on leaving a legal record of answers to questions like under what circumstances the person does and doesn't want to be resuscitated, be put on long-term life support, etc. In the toughest situations, this is the document that a hospital might honor as evidence that it's time to "pull the plug" but it also can determine how aggressively and in what way they'll treat an event that one is unlikely to fully recover from.

It's important to know that each US state has different standards for these documents, and while most states recognize something along these lines, there is no national standard on them and from one place to another they may be quite different or at least called different things.

Maybe it would be good to have a Jim thread about this. I know only parts of one side, and I'm sure EMTs and MDs have a very different perspective.

#614 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 04:05 PM:

613
I have both of those, as of last fall, and also a durable power of attorney for everything else.

You may be able to find the forms used in your state online, for free, but be aware that they may not be current.

#615 ::: Singing Wren ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 07:58 PM:

Angiportus:

I worked sideways to get my husband to the hospital when he was severely dehydrated with what the doctors think was norovirus.

"You have just fainted twice," I said, "and I am worried you may have hit your head the second time. Will you please go to the ER so they can check this out?" (It was perhaps 10:00 at night, so Urgent Care was not an option.)

He agreed, on the condition that I drive. This lasted about halfway to the hospital when the next wave of nausea hit, and he begged me to call 321. (Not 911. 321. I still tease him.) The ambulance took him the rest of the way, and got him started on IV saline. That alone made an obvious difference between how he was getting into the ambulance, and how he was doing when I rejoined him at the hospital.

Turns out, he did not have a head injury. He did have either cracked or bruised ribs - there was no obvious injury on the x-ray, but the doctor said that was not uncommon in cases with no displacement. And the x-ray did rule out a collapsed lung, which can apparently have similar symptoms.

We went home at about 4 in the morning after 2 bags of saline with prescriptions for painkillers and anti-nausea medicine. In retrospect, I'd pay more attention to how much time he spent in the bathroom earlier in the hopes of getting to a medical professional earlier, when options like Urgent Care or a regular doctor were still open. (Urgent Care centers usually close at 9:00 pm around here.)

#616 ::: Terry Hunt ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 08:47 PM:

Xopher @ 604: Walking towards the zenith must be an example of elven magic, because the zenith is by definition the point in the sky directly above one's head :-).

#617 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 09:01 PM:

615
I took my mother to ER once because she was having serious GI problems (I don't know what - I didn't get it). I was worried because it was a week after she'd had her gallbladder removed (in December, in west Texas, and yes, it *did* snow a little that day). Didn't relax until they reported her BP as normal. They kept her overnight with intravenous fluids going in; I stayed with friends overnight. (The surgeon popped in while doing rounds in the morning, and wanted to know why she was there. She said later, he was wearing jeans and cowboy boots. (This is much funnier when you know he's Turkish.))

#618 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 09:48 PM:

Hmm. I guess I've been thinking of "moonshadow" as a shadow cast by the moon rather than the sun.

I used to walk toward the Zenith in order to change channels. No remotes back then!

#619 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 10:24 PM:

618
*snerk*
ours got blown up in one TV show. (More accurately, it was a TV just like ours, which was, in fact, a Zenith - it lasted nearly 20 years.)

#620 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 23, 2018, 11:39 PM:

Hmm. I was using it to mean the top point in the arc of the Sun, which a) is never overhead outside of the tropics and b) north of the tropics will point you south.

I probably misused it.

#621 ::: Terry Hunt ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 05:02 AM:

Xopher @ 620:Xopher @ 620: Yes, the zenith is always perpendicularly above the observer (assuming said observer is on the surface of a planet or similar body), just as the nadir is perpendicularly below. The point (or instant of time) you describe is the upper culmination of the celestial body in question, when it transits the observer's meridian.

#622 ::: Steven desJardins ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 09:23 AM:

Merriam-Webster gives three definitions for zenith, including both the point in the sky above one's head, and the highest point in the sky reached by a celestial body. (The third definition is the metaphorical one used in "the zenith of his powers".) According to the New Shorter Oxford, Xopher's usage dates back to the middle of the 17th Century. It seems like an overly pedantic correction.

#623 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 10:35 AM:

Apparently, yesterday was the Rapture (the Rupture was in 1054). Anyone missing?

#624 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 10:39 AM:

I'm still here....

#625 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 10:55 AM:

I missed the Rapture; I must have been running late...

(Who declared it was happening? Link? I'm curious...)

#626 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 11:05 AM:

I was a little busy yesterday - I must have missed the whole thing.

#628 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 12:24 PM:

Singing Wren @615: I've learned the hard way the importance of staying hydrated during any form of gastric upset. (Any form of anything, really.) Landed myself in the hospital several times over that. It's astonishing how much damage letting yourself get dehydrated can do. Up to and including fainting.

It is for this reason that I have bottles of water stashed around the house within easy reach—especially the places where I might find myself, um, "effluating." And in cases where I'm actively emitting fluids, I keep the bottle within arm's reach (right next to the emesis basin), because during the worst of it, even getting up off the floor to get the water is often too much effort. (Turns out water bottles for biking are very handy for this; makes it relatively easy to take a sip while laying on one's side.)

Fragano Ledgister @623: Didn't we do this a couple of years ago? ("What? The world's ending again?")

#629 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 01:30 PM:

Steven, #622: Speaking of overly pedantic, it seems to me that there's a difference between citing the OED for provenance on something that's still in common usage (singular "they") and citing it for an older usage that isn't common any more.

#630 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 02:48 PM:

The last time I had what I'm guessing was a norovirus,* EVERY time I had to go to the bathroom, as soon as things quieted some, I would have a glass of water after each visit. After 12 hours of this, I had Jan call my doctor, who immediately prescribed anti-nausea drugs, and told her to bring me in for a saline drip should I need it.

I had her tell him that I HAD been able to drink water. His reply was, "Oh good -- some patients can't even tolerate that." Apparently there was a good sized outbreak going on...

*Digestive system got rid of -everything- by any exit IT deemed sufficient.

#631 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 02:55 PM:

I don't even need a norovirus. Flax seed will do me in just fine.

#632 ::: Steven desJardins ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 03:32 PM:

Lee, I cited Merriam-Webster as evidence that Xopher's meaning is currently common usage. I could cite my own experience as well. I cited the OED as evidence that the shift in usage did not occur recently enough for it to still be considered controversial.

#633 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 09:19 PM:

I would be concerned if Kip's Zenith were perpendicularly over my head. Unless it was because I lived on a lower floor.

#634 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 09:37 PM:

Large thanks to all who have answered here my concerns. I will soon enough be discussing this with immediate family.

#635 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2018, 10:12 PM:

So, what I'm getting here is that you can't walk toward "the zenith," but you CAN walk toward "the Sun's zenith," and that will, north of the tropics, take you south.

#636 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 05:26 AM:

Unless your hiking buddy is an astronomer. Then you'd want to walk towards "the sun's upper culmination," or you'll hear about it.

But since I think very few non-astronomers would have any idea what you meant when you said that, "sun's zenith" seems like a better choice: technically incorrect, perhaps, but far more comprehensible.

#637 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 10:24 AM:

Xopher: Does climbing a ladder count as "walking"?

#638 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 10:31 AM:

Jacque #628: Just wanted to admire "effluating".

Lori #630: Back before we knew the word "norovirus", we always called it "Martian Death Flu". Good for at least 48 hours of fun.

Absolute best way to get instantly totally dehydrated? And then faint? Colonoscopy prep.

#639 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 10:33 AM:

this is just to say
that I was not taken away
by the fake rapture
that came by the fridge.
forgive me
I intend to stay delicious and cold.

#640 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 10:47 AM:

"Did we say 'Rapture'? We meant 'raptor'!"

#641 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 01:22 PM:

People keep making rapture jokes like there's no tomorrow.

#642 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 01:58 PM:

File770 seems to be down again...

#643 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 03:02 PM:

..and File770 is back up. Nothing to see here; move along...

#644 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 08:57 PM:

Fragano@623: <cue Elaine Stritch>...And I'm here</cue>

#645 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 11:15 PM:

The Raptors just won another game against the Wizards.

#646 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: April 25, 2018, 11:51 PM:

TomB @ 645 ...
Did the raptors eat the wizards then?

#647 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 01:37 AM:

xeger: The series is not over yet. Patience. But it does make me feel that we're living in a D&D world now.

#648 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 04:42 AM:

I have mixed feelings about the UK tabloid report on the Rapture prediction. It does document the claim, but just doing that would have convinced some people.

So what happened on April 23rd that could have been the Second Coming?

(Toddles off to put a fiver on the Royal baby's name being "Jesus"...)

#649 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 04:54 AM:

xeger @ #646:

Do not meddle in the affairs of raptors, because they have teeth and are quick to eat you.

#650 ::: Singing Wren ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 05:50 AM:

Ingvar M @ #649:

Would the rule for dragons also apply here?

(...for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.)

#651 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 06:38 AM:

Cassy B. @ #642-643:

Aaaand down again.

#652 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 08:34 AM:

Singing Wren @ #650:

I have always interpreted the crunchiness in that saying with a combination of armour and dragon-induced charring, but it's possible hat raptors would like ketchup with their human-sized snack?

#653 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 10:43 AM:

Seventy-three years ago, my father left Jamaica in search of a better life. He was part of a boatload of Ledgisters, including several brothers and an uncle, who landed in New York in the spring of 1944 to replace American workers who were on urgent call elsewhere.

So, why don't I speak with a Brooklyn accent, and how, for that matter, did I come to be? Nine years later, my father got on a plane and crossed the Atlantic, joining tens of thousands of his fellow colonial British subjects in England's green, pleasant, and rationed land (he kept his ration books, I found them 18 years later in Jamaica, with the sweet point coupons still in them -- sweets had come off ration in 1951).

My father was among the many West Indian migrants who formed the Windrush Generation (1947-1962) of migrants to the UK. All of whom arrived as British citizens. Indeed, the only passport my father ever held was a UK passport. He got Jamaican passports for his children born in the UK (myself, my younger brother, and my late sister), but he never, as far as I'm aware, ever took one out for himself.

He would have been deeply outraged at the scandal that unfolded in Britain of elderly people, who had arrived in Britain between the 1950s and 1970s, either as British citizens or as the children thereof, who found themselves being deported as non-citizens. He was proud of his Britishness. Proud of being a Tory voter (a considered vote, in Jamaica he voted socialist for years), he would have been profoundly hurt by the way the Conservative Party ordered the Home Office to treat those like him.

Four out of five people in Britain objected to members of the Windrush Generation being deported. On the simple grounds that you should not deport British people from Britain. Back in 1961, when I started primary school, I could have done with that social consensus.

I have lived to see a day when a black MP can verbally chastise the Home Secretary and PM -- and they have to take it because they were wrong. I have lived to see a day in which people who, when I was a child, were subject to the vilest racist abuse, and yet learned to like mashed spuds and Yorkshire pudding, are seen as part of the British nation and worthy of defense thereby.

Ob sf/ML:

This is an important part of why I quibbled at Jo Walton when she had rationing end in 1951 in My Real Children. My father was on rations two years later. This is an important matter. He, like other Caribbean arrivals, came from places without rationing to Britain to share in the hardships of rebuilding a war-torn country. It has taken seven fucking decades for that gift to the British people to be given its due honour.

#654 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 10:44 AM:

Should be "Seventy-four". I can't count.

#655 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 10:48 AM:

Fragano, I salute your father. On the left side of the pond, we've not heard much more than the broad outlines of this scandal. Have the deportations stopped?

#656 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 10:50 AM:

Ingvar, #651: Does anybody have any idea what's going on with Mike's server?

Fragano, #653: Thank you for that slice of history.

#657 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 11:42 AM:

Cassy B #655: I'm on the left side of the Herring Pond myself. The descendants of my great-grandfather live across a large chunk of the world.

What lies under your question's a valid point. I find myself today living in a kind o Overlappia. I'm part of a community that crosses boundaries and in which matters relating to Brampton, Brompton, Brixton, the Bronx, Laventille, or Mandeville are all local. (Plus, I have cousins in Panama.)

The deportations are supposed to have stopped. The important question is how many people are wandering the streets of Kingston, Port of Spain, Georgetown, or Basseterre, who ought to be in hospital in London or Brum?

Lee # 656: David Lammy's thundering down at the British government reminded me that 37 years ago I was sweet on a cousin of his named Shellie. Alas, that went nowhere.

#658 ::: Singing Wren ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 08:07 PM:

Ingvar M @ #652:

Ah, I had always assumed the crunchiness came from the bones of villagers foolish enough to meddle themselves instead of waiting for a properly equipped knight.

I agree with you about the ketchup.

#659 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 08:59 PM:

Ob Monty Python ref: As was said of Crunchy Frog chocolates, "If you took the bones out it wouldn't be crunchy."

#660 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 09:09 PM:

There was a big website about a tremendous amount related to Tam Lin. When the owner committed suicide, I thought it was preserved by Seanan McGuire and someone else, but I can't find it. Anyone know where it is?

#661 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2018, 10:24 PM:

Jacque 637: Doesn't really move you south (or north). So nah.

#662 ::: kate ::: (view all by) ::: April 27, 2018, 12:24 AM:

Nancy:

Still exists. Here.

Also had a tumblr; but note, the first two posts are suicide-related.

#663 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: April 27, 2018, 09:29 AM:

#662 ::: kate

Thank you.

#664 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 27, 2018, 12:17 PM:

We appear to be living in a world in which Franz Kafka is writing the script for Peyton Place.

#665 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: April 28, 2018, 11:31 PM:

In case it is still April 28th where you are reading this, or possibly even if it isn't, Cat Valente's Space Opera is on sale for $4.99 from The Big River Website's e-reader store, and based on the totally badass first chapter, it is obvious that you should go obtain a copy.

#666 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 12:00 AM:

Bill, #665: One caveat. I bought this book last week based on rave recommendations from people I know, and I'm finding it a tough slog due to the extremely florid writing style. I'm only on chapter 3, and when the eye-rolling excess verbiage drops back a bit the story looks interesting, so I have hopes that it's going to get better as we get out of setup and into the actual plot.

#667 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 12:58 AM:

Lee at #666: I'm just about to start Space Opera now. After grinding through an enormous slab of epic but slightly clunky fantasy, i'm totally up for some florid.

#668 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 09:15 AM:

Lee @666 I enjoyed the story, but to really enjoy the book I think you have to embrace the florid. There are two things going on in the verbiage that I enjoyed encountering. There are the moments when the extremely specific experience of a character suddenly blossoms into a universal truth. And there are one-liners. So many one-liners in passing. Especially further in, when the characters start meeting the contest participants from other species, this book sheds hilarious bits in passing like a cat sheds fur. I'm certain I missed many tributes and allusions but I greatly enjoyed what I got.

#669 ::: Andrew Plotkin ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 10:14 AM:

I thought _Space Opera_ was trying *way too hard* to be Douglas Adams.

But... I gather that the motto of Eurovision is "if you're not trying *way too hard*, you're not trying at all." So that was thematically appropriate -- nay, required -- and I can't take off any points for it. So yes: embrace the florid. Wear the glitter.


#670 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 01:16 PM:

"Florid" is Valente's native tongue, and she speaks it masterfully (as Jack Vance did). It's been like this from her earliest books. Haven't started SPACE OPERA, but I expect that if you didn't like her earlier books you won't like this one; and if you did, the reports on it say she's doing it even better. She's also very good at different dialects of florid, and I really enjoy that.

#671 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 01:29 PM:

Tom Whitmore at 670: I really liked the American Western vernacular in Six-Gun Snow White. Cat can write arid when she puts her mind to it.

#672 ::: Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 09:45 PM:

It is late on April 29 and the Space Opera sale is still on. At least, it was still 4.99 at the Noble Barn, where Big Brazilian River deals are often echoed.

Though the Great Moon Phase Fantasy F&#k-Ups conversation was many days ago, I'd like to contribute an offering to the astronomical bonfire because it irks me so. Except maybe I already have? In case I've mentioned it here before, I'll keep it quick.

Two words: Spring solstice.

The perpetrator: Amanda Hemingway's Sangreal Trilogy, specifically Book 3.

That is all. That is quite enough.

#673 ::: Terry Hunt ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2018, 09:57 PM:

Re the Zenith thing: I myself have never previously encountered the word being used for anything else than the overhead point of the sky (or celestial sphere), hence my initial comments.

I became interested in astronomy around age 7, and went on to read astronomy at university (though I later dropped out). I actually double-checked my (40-odd year) old textbooks before posting – it never occurred to me that there might be other, differing usages. Thus, I was trying only to be accurate, not pedantic.

Since the 'point of upper culmination' to which Xopher referred is indeed the closest the body in question gets to the astronomical zenith, I can see that calling it "the X's zenith" is not unreasonable, but as I said, I've never encountered that usage before this conversation.

#674 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 12:17 AM:

HLN: Area man gets to upgrade his brag.

For some small time now, I've been able to put on my list of "Things I've Done That You Probably Haven't", "won a game of chess at tournament time controls against a player who holds the GM title". As of today, that's now "...a player who has won the United States Chess Championship".

If you were reading closely, you might have noticed the disconnect between the past tense "won a game" and present tense "holds". Little Sam Shankland has come a long way since those days at the Berkeley Chess Club when I could beat him!

#675 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 09:42 AM:

Andrew Plotkin @ 669:

Even trying too hard at Eurovision still isn't necessarily enough

ObBujold:

Because I actually managed to hear about it ahead of time: There will be a new story in the Vorkosigan series. It's a novella from Ektarin's viewpoint called The Flowers of Vashnoi, due out late Mayish. Like the Penric and Desdemona novellas, it'll only be available through Amazon, iTunes, and Nook (*grumble grumble*).

#676 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 11:22 AM:

KeithS (675): Thanks for the word on the new Bujold novella! I've added it to my list of things to look for in late May.

#677 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 12:10 PM:

Fragano Ledgister @664: YOMANK. It just kills me that I don't have anyone nearby to share that with.

Space Opera: Thanks all. The rave reviews had me thinking maybe I'd slot it into my TBR pile. Comments @666 & seq, however, lead me to think it's probably Not My Thing. Glad to save frustration.

Nicole @672: "'Spring solstice,' as it applies to the Great Moon Phase Fantasy F&#k-Ups conversation", Gracie?

KeithS @675: The Flowers of Vashnoi due out late Mayish

GAHHH!! AAGGHAHAHAAGH!! GAHHHH-AGGGAAHHHA!!! ::wipes foam off chin:: </fansquee>

#678 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 12:42 PM:

Jacque, I suspect that Space Opera is a Marmite book. You either love it or you can't understand why anyone would love it... <grin> The writing is very florid and ornate; kind of reminiscent of Jack Vance. If that helps.

You might want to see if there's a "Look Inside" Kindle sample on Amazon; you should know within a few pages if the book is for you or not.

#679 ::: lorax ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 01:16 PM:

Jacque: There's a brief excerpt of Space Opera on tor.com.

#680 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 01:38 PM:

Cassy B #678, Jacque
I didn't love it, but I enjoyed it. The style has its own pleasures, as I mentioned above, but for me it also kept me from ever being immersed in the story. This is neither right nor wrong, but it's a factor in which readers will like it.

I agree that looking at an excerpt may be helpful.

FWIW, I am not particularly a Douglas Adams fan and had never heard of Eurovision.

#681 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: April 30, 2018, 10:12 PM:

David Goldfarb: Good on you for your time at the top. You did good.

#682 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: May 01, 2018, 10:16 AM:

KeithS @375, re: new book

Eeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for letting us know. :D

#683 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 01, 2018, 10:44 AM:

Cassy B. @678: I suspect that Space Opera is a Marmite book. You either love it or you can't understand why anyone would love it...

Although there are many things in this world that, while they're not my thing, I readily concede their "Thing-ness" ("Thing-ability?"), and am thereby pleased at their existence in my world. Douglas Adams and the Grateful Dead being but two examples. I will check out the link at lorax's @679, but I would be entirely content for Space Opera to fall into that company.

#684 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: May 01, 2018, 01:38 PM:

In 1993, my friend Alana started the "involuntary celibacy" / "incel" project as a website and mailing list. At the time, it was a mutual-support thing for people who were, for whatever reason, unable to find partners. (I was part of the group briefly, but found that it was much more about celibacy than about romantic partners, i.e. not really what I was looking for.) Though there was a lot of social cluelessness, there wasn't the bitterness, anger, and misogyny that are hallmarks of "incel" today.

After a couple of years, Alana handed control of the site and mailing list over to someone else, and moved on with her life.

A few years ago, when "incel" got into the news as a violently misogynist movement, she was shocked by the transformation of something good into something terrible. Every time another incident has come up, she's been smacked by it. And with the van attack on April 23rd in Toronto, where she lives, it's come home. She has been a "media darling" and is sick of it. Her Twitter feed is full of both hatred from men and hatred of all "incels". Some "incels" are merely socially awkward; even some of the misogynists could be educated.

So a couple of days ago, she set up a new site, "Love, Not Anger", to try to educate people. She's trying to get back to her original premise.

#685 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 01, 2018, 02:52 PM:

Joel Polowin #684: I've had a similar, if not as drastic experience: Back about the same time (early 90's) I founded "Walkers in Darkness", one of the first 3 online support groups for people with mental illness -- mine was focused on depression. A few years later, I had my own major crisis, and had to handing the list over to my assistant (who, as I thought, was himself one of our success stories). When I checked back much later (after climbing some way out of my own hole), he had started a website, but that was members only, and I was getting report that he'd been asking the membership for increasing amounts of money for "running the site", but without any accountability. A few years later, the website was gone, and I couldn't find any trace of Walkers.

The thing is, a mailing list or even a website, if founded and run by an individual, is fundamentally a despotism -- it has an owner whose "last word" is backed by the underlying technology and/or finances. As my father once commented, the most nearly perfect form of government is a benevolent despotism, because it only has one flaw: The succession.

A third example of this was the mailing list "bandykin", which I was a member of for the second half of its lifetime. Founded by "bandy" when his girlfriend dumped him, it became an amazing community; Making Light itself is the closest thing to that I've seen since. But time went on -- eventually bandy not only found a new girlfriend, but married her, and as his life shifted, he passed the helm to other members of the community. But then a love triangle developed among several of the original members -- one of whom was the person who actually had control over the list software. That ended up splitting the list (and a marriage) in half, and IIRC, neither of the daughter lists really had the same sense of community. (I don't think they lasted all that long, either.)

#686 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 01, 2018, 04:04 PM:

Dave Harmon, I saw much the same thing happen with a motorcycling website, many years back. It was valuable while it lasted, but the owner kept asking for more money to run the site, and eventually it folded and spawned two daughter sites, both of which tried (and for all I know, still try) but (at least while I still followed them) were unable to really capture the gestalt of the first site.

#687 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: May 02, 2018, 04:09 AM:

I remember the days of dial-up BBS, often linked through FidoNet. That's where I first got on to Usenet. The Benevolent Despotism was the norm, and if it turned sour it wasn't terribly hard to move on.

The modern internet shows the dangers of despotism. Some people are controlling too much of it, and behaving like a BBS sysop who has turned bad. But they are too close to being the only game in town.

#688 ::: Pendrift ::: (view all by) ::: May 02, 2018, 10:24 AM:

On Eurovision: There is this little tutorial prepared by the 2016 hosts on how to create the perfect Eurovision song. All it takes is some attention to detail along with Love Love Peace Peace.

#689 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: May 02, 2018, 01:29 PM:

I should give the proper link to Alana's site: www.lovenotanger.org. It has been evolving; she has been seeing a lot of push-back against her soliciting donations to support it, so she has removed that aspect. She has also been seeing a lot of skepticism that she's the "real" Alana. Well, yeah, she is.

#691 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 02, 2018, 04:03 PM:

...It's that time of year again, and the humans are out in force....

#692 ::: Anne Sheller ::: (view all by) ::: May 03, 2018, 03:24 AM:

Fragano @653 - It's my impression that neither timeline in My Real Children was our timeline, so a couple of years' difference in the timing of the end of rationing would not be worth quibbling about. It may have been deliberate.

#693 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: May 03, 2018, 08:36 AM:

Ah yes, Eurovision. My wife loves it, our kids like it, and I mock it. Love Love Peace Peace is pretty much the distillation of it down into 4 minutes.

#694 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 03, 2018, 01:40 PM:

Anne Sheller @692: that's very much my reading, and I think it's clearly supported by the text. Each timeline has things happen that are not what happens in our world; and if the rationing ending was before the timeline split (which I don't remember either way -- my memory isn't what it once was) it would be appropriate even so: this is not a work of general fiction, and it might have helped establish the fact that none of the story really takes place in our world, but a similarly parallel world.

#695 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: May 04, 2018, 12:44 AM:

The timeline split was in the middle part of 1949. Rationing being over in 1951 seems a little bit close to the point of divergence for such a large change, to me, but it's at least arguable.

#696 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: May 04, 2018, 01:20 AM:

But David, the source timeline wasn't ours to begin with. The split made two not-ours timelines out of one not-ours timeline.

My interpretation is that our timeline was created when the main character died and the two timelines were forced to resolve into one.

#697 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: May 04, 2018, 02:54 PM:

That's an interesting interpretation, Xopher!

#698 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: May 04, 2018, 07:59 PM:

Anne Sheller #692:

While that's likely the case, even an inadvertent threat to my birthright identity is worrisome.

#699 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 06, 2018, 01:17 AM:

Hah! Just cracked a couple of long-standing problems.

Lunch at work: Drives me nuts, because I have to figure out something different every freakin' week (because I tend to get tired of easy solutions very quickly). Consumes way too much attention, and very often, just gets shoved off until I'm, like, at work, and then I procrastinate, and end up eating nothing, or junk or....

But then I had a rush of brains to the head, and realized this is a solved problem. Just spent the afternoon adding a grocery-list generator to the bottom.

Taming the pigs: My boys got very tame because every night, they'd get to go run around on the floor for a couple of hours, and this meant they got handled twice, and had positive associations therewith: going out, they got to look at the girls. Going home, they got their dinner. Additionally, when they were home, they were in cages right next to my chair, so they got very used to my movements and my nearness.

Doesn't quite work with the girls; making a big-enough enclosure for the three of them next to my chair for long-term habitation is far more involved than I want to deal with. And their default state is running loose on the floor.

But! It occurred to me: just reverse the proceedure as for the boys: when I come home from work, I give them snacks. So: pick them up when I get home so they can have their snacks in the enclosure by my chair. Then put then out again when they get their dinner.

Probably don't even need to do this in perpetuity; just until they get used to being handled and near me.

~oOo~

I'm actually feeling dreadfully pleased with myself.

#700 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: May 06, 2018, 10:16 AM:

Jacque, YAY! for solving longstanding problems!

#701 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: May 06, 2018, 12:03 PM:

Jacque, #699: My lunch problem was easier to solve, because I have no objection to eating the same thing for lunch day after day -- during junior high and high school, I ate exactly the same lunch every school day for 6 years. When I was making my own work lunches, I'd cook a pot of soup or stew over the weekend, portion it into individual-serving containers, and freeze it. Then lunch was a container of soup, a ham-and-cheese sandwich (prepared the night before), a piece of fruit, and a cookie. Quick to pack in the morning, quick to prepare in the break room at lunchtime.

#702 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 07, 2018, 12:03 PM:

Lee: Sadly, I do have issues around eating exactly the same thing, day in, day out, for years on end. (I can do it for a week. More than a week, and I start avoiding eating my lunch. Which is bad.) Ironical, given how stressful the deciding is. :-\ (It's a double-bind!)

The swap table neatly solves that issue, resulting in essentially the same solution as yours, but with that one factor tweaked.

Oh, and I streamline slightly further: the meat/cheese goes into the soup, so all I have to do the night before is grab a soup unit, pack chunks of bread and butter (which, in principle, could also be frozen...hm....!), and Bob's your uncle.

I also like adding a fruit,* but I haven't rolled that into my algorithm yet.

Shorter me: you're not wrong. ;-)

* I meant to bring a banana today. I forgot my banana. :-(

#703 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: May 07, 2018, 01:48 PM:

Jacque @ 702 ...
* I meant to bring a banana today. I forgot my banana. :-(

"Yes, we have no banana today... "

#704 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 07, 2018, 06:25 PM:

Yay! I found my banana! (It had gotten hidden in my bag bag. Because of course it did.)

#705 ::: C. Wingate ::: (view all by) ::: May 07, 2018, 08:10 PM:

re 701: All the way through elementary school, I had a baloney sandwich for lunch. I am told that when my mother asked at one point if I would like something else, I said to her that "when I want a different thing for lunch, I'll let you know."

#706 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 07, 2018, 08:33 PM:

I had the same thing for breakfast for years, and also the same thing for lunch for years, because school and work. Weekends and supper were for different. It wasn't all that boring for me; YMMV. (My father did the same thing.)

#707 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 12:36 AM:

For something like eight or ten years of grade school, I was making scrambled-egg-and-ketchup sandwiches for lunch. (At first, that was one of the few non-trivial things I could cook, if poorly). Then it was at least another ten years before I ate another. ;-)

Nowadays, if I eat the same thing more than three days in a row, I'm liable to pick up an aversion to it that will take a week or two to clear.

#708 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 09:19 AM:

I've had the same type of sandwich for lunch (with minor variation) on workdays for, oh, um, years at this point. I like variety, but I like quick preparation time and not having to think at stupid o'clock in the morning more.

Mornings would be fine if they happened later in the day.

#709 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 10:10 AM:

Most scientific bibliographies on this topic begin with the classic treatment of the subject, "Bread and Jam for Frances."

#710 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 10:15 AM:

I have a can of chicken noodle soup every workday for lunch. My office has a microwave oven, and it's just easier; I buy a case of it and I'm good for some time, and I never have to think about what I'm going to have for lunch. On the other hand, I never ever ever have chicken noodle soup on weekends or when we go out for dinner...

#711 ::: Tony Zbaraschuk ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 11:18 AM:

I've doing the same breakfast pretty regularly for a while now -- oatmeal with an apple cut up into it (or craisins or other dried fruit -- I'm thinking I might try dates one of these days) and yogurt stirred in. It's fast, it's nutritious, it's adequately tasty, and I know where everything is.

Never underestimate the time-saving power of routine. ;)

#712 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 11:40 AM:

KeithS, #708: Mornings would be fine if they happened later in the day.

Sing it, brother!

#713 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 11:45 AM:

@712 re @708: Hear hear!

See also: stupid o'clock in the morning.

::grin::

#714 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 12:00 PM:

I cook up big batches of stuff in my crock pot, and freeze it in portions. I've got enough freezer space that I can store a number of different kinds of these portions, so I still get variety when I pull out one of them.

#715 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 12:36 PM:

Jacque @ Hakosot: I played Hakosot at Penguicon this weekend last and asked Moshe about videos, the existence thereof. Once I explained why I was asking, he wanted to know why didn't you email him yourself in the first place. :P He said he's sure he has a video somewhere, and can dig something up to send to you. (I will also be emailing him myself to ask, as I now have friends I'd like to introduce to it.)

#716 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 01:49 PM:

Peanut-butter-and sandwiches (supply your favorite "and") are great for fixing for lunch when you're doing it at stupid o'clock AM. Especially when you need two meals, because you're going to be stuck wherever until about 6pm.

I've been doing frozen meals (the small entree-type ones) for breakfast the few months. Nutritious, easy to nuke, and will keep me going until lunch, especially if I nuke an additional serving of veggies.

#717 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 09:44 PM:

P J Evans @716 ...
Peanut-butter-and sandwiches (supply your favorite "and") are great for fixing for lunch when you're doing it at stupid o'clock AM.

Also, these days it's pretty easy to get a hold of alternatives like almond butter, if you happen to be somebody who shouldn't have anything to do with peanuts, for fear of an excessively interesting time.

#718 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 08, 2018, 10:59 PM:

717
I remember in 1980-81, because of the Great Peanut Butter Crunch, I was getting TJ's "American Nut Butter", which was made from glandless cotton seeds (with peanut oil added). The flavor was good, slightly more floral than peanut butter. (This was before almond butter was easily available.)

#719 ::: David Langford ::: (view all by) ::: May 09, 2018, 11:28 AM:

The comparisons of Catherynne M. Valente's latest to Jack Vance (who also wrote a novel called Space Opera) impel me to mention rather smugly that this year I achieved the major life goal of seeing a Vance novel reissued with a new introduction by me. The book is Maske: Thaery, in the Spatterlight Press Signature Series. "Ti-ra-la-la-i-tu! I gloat! Hear me!"

#720 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 09, 2018, 01:26 PM:

That is a wonderful gloat, Mr. Langford. May you have many more such!

#721 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 09, 2018, 03:18 PM:

estelendur @715: Just emailed him. Reason I hadn't sooner is that he hadn't responded to my email in '13, and I wasn't sure if he was still active.

When you email him, tell him to look for my email, as I wonder if his spam trap ate the last one.

David Langford @719: That's a wonderously glorious gloat! It's so great when one finally achieves stuff like that, isn't it?

#722 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: May 09, 2018, 11:16 PM:

Jacque @721: Perfectly sensible! And done. :)

David Langford @719: Congratulations!

#723 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: May 10, 2018, 10:43 AM:

What Joel Said in #714.

I have soups, pasta dishes, stews, and hunks of meatloaf with sides in plastic containers in my freezer.

I've discovered that mashed potatoes can be frozen and reconstituted somewhat satisfactorally.

#724 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 10, 2018, 03:02 PM:

Open Thready: My local lizards are back! I just saw a young one next to my front door. (Five-lined skinks -- juveniles and females have this gorgeous blue tail.)

#725 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: May 10, 2018, 09:13 PM:

Interesting "ripped from the headlines" story about discovering evidence of a pre-humanoid technological civilization on Earth: Under the Sun. Written by one of the scientists who are making the current headlines!

#726 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 10, 2018, 09:38 PM:

724
My apt building has fence lizards in the flower beds, inside and out. (Bluebellies!) Some of them are several years old, too, going by the size. I like them, but not everyone else does.

#727 ::: Sandy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 11, 2018, 01:39 AM:

Greetings all!

I came here to see if I could learn something, and two hours later I have learned a great many things, as usual. I thank you all.

The specific AKICIML question was "Until what year did Oxford students wear robes in ordinary life instead of just for exams and formal occasions?"

P.S. "Spring Solstice"@672 was so wrong my brain autocorrected it the first three times I read it. Ssss.

#728 ::: Sandy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 11, 2018, 01:42 AM:

P.P.S. For "Chicken with Brown Things" @378, may I suggest, to parallel Chicken Cacciatore, Chicken Collettore?

#729 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: May 11, 2018, 06:59 PM:

Thanks, Sandy B. But I looked up collettore in Wiktionary, and there are too many meanings besides the one we want for food:

  1. manifold (in a car)
  2. collector
  3. cesspool, sewer, well, collection pit
  4. canal

#730 ::: Doug ::: (view all by) ::: May 12, 2018, 06:55 AM:

Sandy B. @727: I don't know about Oxford, but students at Sewanee (The University of the South) wear the academic gown in normal life to this very day.

#731 ::: janetl ::: (view all by) ::: May 13, 2018, 07:45 PM:

I'm anxiously awaiting the Hugo Voter Packet. I've read the novels and novellas, but the shorter stuff is harder to find.

I adored Martha Well's first Murderbot Diary novella, which is on the ballot, and grabbed the second one when it came out on May 8th. So funny, and I swear they are character-driven, despite all the running & shooting and such.

I shared the positive view of "Space Opera", even though I don't like Marmite. ;-)

#732 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: May 13, 2018, 11:19 PM:

janetl: This article on File 770 might be helpful to you.

#733 ::: Nicole J. LeBoeuf-Little ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 12:50 AM:

Jacque @677: I probably should have said "Great Astronomical F&#k-up conversation" rather than specifically Moon Phase. (Sandy B. @727 YES EXACTLY YOU FEEL MY PAIN)

Re: Space Opera - Loved it. Finished it and sat there weeping helplessly for several minutes out of pure emotional resonance. It was like crack formulated specifically for my particular brain.

Re: All Systems Red - Loving it too. It's our current read-aloud book. John read the first four chapters to me on a recent drive home from Vail. This morning it was chapter six after breakfast, him reading and me at the spinning wheel. He gets Murderbot's voice just right.

#734 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 07:53 AM:

@712/713: I'm beginning to feel that way now that I need more sleep -- although I have trouble getting it even with Alaska-class lightblocking curtains. But when I was in college I found out I was a sort of curvewrecker; their budgeting assumed that 6/7 of the boarders would not eat breakfast, but I always did. "All things change, and we are changed with them."

re consistent eating: at home my breakfast for at least 6 years has been homemade seeded-rye bread dipped in olive oil (since I found an acceptably-tasty brand at a tolerable price...), except when I was doing archery on a cold day and felt hot porridge was a better idea. Lunch and supper are frequently a set of small-number rotations, mostly because that made eating at my desk easier (I went from work straight to an evening activity at least 2 days a week for most of my career) and now I'm in the habit. But I'm also an inveterate sampler: when I was young, the nearest to heaven I'd been was not Foyles (too many choices and not enough money) but the 64-dish buffet at Skansen -- barely missing that (since it runs only July-August) after ConFiction was very annoying.

Dave Langford @ 719: Congratulations! I've felt it was possible to get too much Vance at once but loved most of his work in book-sized increments.

in re Hakosot: see The Harvard Undergraduate Drummers performing their cover of "Cups" (aka "When I'm Gone"); don't know whether the cup play was evolved in parallel (simpler forms were reportedly known in goyish grade schools long before Pitch Perfect) or elephantiatically. I have a visual memory of a version involving rapid stacking and unstacking (as well as passing) of assorted brightly-colored cups, but can't find it online -- may be memory being brighter than reality.
      Incidentally, Scrappy Little Nobody, the bio of Anna Kendrick (who premiered the song) is entertaining from the title onwards -- I first heard of her when she played Cinderella in the movie of Into the Woods, but that's because I'm not much in touch with pop culture.

#735 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 08:12 AM:

My mother, Maruxa Dores López Pardo, viúva de Ledgister, died at a quarter to three this morning.

#736 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 08:25 AM:

Fragano, #735, I am sorry to hear of that loss. Here are wishes that healing will come to you.

#737 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 09:08 AM:

Fragano #735, condolences

#738 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 09:14 AM:

Fragano Ledgister #735: My condolences and sympathies. My her memory be a blessing.

#739 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 09:31 AM:

735
I'm sorry to hear that.

(The pain will lessen.)

#740 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 09:37 AM:

janetl @ 731:

Martha Wells writes amazing characters and good action, and very solid, interesting worlds. I was exceedingly happy to see that the Books of the Raksura made it onto the Hugo Ballot for best series, and that All Systems Red did for novella. I really want both of those to win, especially the Raksura series. I've been reading through her back catalog, and everything I've read so far has been excellent. I'm almost out of books of hers to read.

Fragano Ledgister @ 735:

May her memory be a blessing.

#741 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 09:57 AM:

Fragano, I'm sorry for your loss.

#742 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 10:32 AM:

Fragano, condolences :(

#743 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 10:42 AM:

So sorry to hear the news, Fragano.

#744 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 12:13 PM:

Nicole @733 & Sandy B @727:

P.S. "Spring Solstice"@672 was so wrong my brain autocorrected it the first three times I read it.

Ah. Got it. My brain also failed to parse the wrongness of this because Wrong. (To be fair, I always have to do that little internal dance, "Solstice? Equinox? Pick (1)" Because they slot into the same file folder in my brain.

(I am reminded of a character played by a friend of mine, "Scottish McScottishSomething, discoverer of the East Pole.")

CHip #734: Harvard Undergraduate Drummers performing their cover of "Cups"

Yeah, that looks very similar to the ones I was able to find back when I was last looking. I didn't watch it straight through, but looks to me like they only sort of incidentally get around to passing the cups towards the very end. I found a couple variations of that (including large, barrel-sized "cups"). But none that do the intense passing that Moshe's version does. (I keep visualizing Moshe's done with a series of rainbow-hued cups. Which I think would make a really cool video.)

Fragano Ledgister @735: That's sad to hear.

#745 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 01:42 PM:

I'm sorry, Fragano. I wish I could help in some way.

#746 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 01:49 PM:

My sympathies, Fragano.

#747 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 02:31 PM:

Do you need anything other than good thoughts, Fragano?

#748 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 03:52 PM:

Fragano, I'm sorry for your loss.

#749 ::: J Homes ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 04:32 PM:

Condolences, Fragano.

#750 ::: Michael I ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 06:48 PM:

My condolences, Fragano

#751 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 07:16 PM:

Condolences, Fragano. May her memory be a blessing.

#752 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: May 14, 2018, 11:18 PM:

Fragano, I'm sorry for your loss.

#753 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: May 15, 2018, 07:40 AM:

Fragano, I have no words :( Sympathies and empathies.

#754 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 08:21 PM:

Open Thready: Don't Rest On Your Laurels: An audio version of "The Dress".

"Yanny" vs. "Laurel", which do you here? The article is nicely geeky, resorting to sonograms for illustration.

As someone with congenital hearing loss, I say: Welcome to my life!

#755 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 08:23 PM:

Argh, ohnosecond: "here" -> "hear"

#756 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 09:15 PM:

That link just goes to the top of this thread, Dave H -- did you have something else in mind?

#757 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 09:47 PM:

OK, double fail: Try this: Don't Rest On Your Laurels.

#758 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 10:11 PM:

Thank you! Fascinating article.

#759 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 10:41 PM:

That was interesting; I couldn't get it to do more than say 'laurel' with someone else saying 'yanny' or something behind it, like a horror movie audio clip. I can typically shift things more than that, like ping-ponging the rotating dancer back and forth.

#760 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 11:03 PM:

I have mild tinnitus, so it doesn't surprise me that I just heard "Laurel." But I heard it very distinctly, with no trace of "Yanny." Is the vowel sound the same? Because the vowels in "Laurel" are "AW-uh" while I assume "Yanny" would be "A(like cat)-ee."

#761 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 11:11 PM:

I consistently get "laurel" -- according to another article I found chasing links from the Twitter thread, that's usual for someone with hearing loss; as the article noted, the frequencies that would push toward "Yanny" are the upper frequencies; as I noted, my compensations look for a plausible interpretation -- that is, a best-guess at what someone actually said, and "laurel" is an actual word rather than an unusual name.

#762 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 16, 2018, 11:43 PM:

I consistently heard "yanni" -- but the link from there with different frequency-shifts showed me that I could hear the other if the tones were changed. And that is really fascinating -- I couldn't shift within a given frequency range at all. It was always clearly either one or the other. Sometimes the "n" would shift towards an "m", but not much.

#763 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 01:46 AM:

In the article links, I hear "yanny" in the two downshifted versions, and "laurel" in the three upshifted ones, just as the article says. In the original recording I hear "laurel" and can't make anything else at all out of it.

#764 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 08:48 AM:

Huh. The top two downshifted version gives me "yaylee" I don't get a middle "n" at all.

#765 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 09:08 AM:

To me, the original recording is very clearly "laurel". The 20% downshifted version sounds more like "worral", and the 30% is maybe "yarri" or "yowie". None of them sound anything like "yanny".

#766 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 09:13 AM:

(It may be, as Dave Harmon suggested, that my brain is reaching for plausible interpretations: "laurel", "Worral", "yarri" and "yowie" are all words I've heard before, though non-Australians may find some of them less plausible than I do, while "yanny" is just an arbitrary collection of phonemes with no history attached to it.)

#767 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 10:42 AM:

More Open Thready: We've all heard of Amanda Palmer before, but I hadn't thought much about her since deciding her music wasn't to my taste. I just discovered she can write text pretty well too...

She's got a solid article about net neutrality over at Mozilla Blog.

#769 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 06:25 PM:

I hear Yammy, but I've also heard Pammy and Hammy.

More experiences and some discussion:

https://www.metafilter.com/174133/The-Fault-in-Our-Ears#7402770

#770 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: May 17, 2018, 10:07 PM:

Dave Harmon @ 761:

I consistently get "laurel" too, but I don't suffer from any appreciable amount of hearing loss that I know of. I'm also not sure what a "yanny" is supposed to be.

Jacque @ 768:

Yay!

#771 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 02:22 AM:

To me it sounds like halfway between "Yerry" and "Yuri". The first sound is definitely a Y, but there's no L anywhere.

OTOH, I never could see The Dress as either of the combos it was supposed to be either. To me it was blue and tan.

#772 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 08:58 AM:

Anyone else going to be at Balticon Memorial weekend? Wondering about a Fluorosphere meetup.

#773 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 11:47 AM:

I'll be at Balticon. I'm interested in a meet-up.

I'll be there without the button business, but I can deliver buttons if people order them.

Green needle or Brainstorm

#774 ::: dcb ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 12:14 PM:

I hear "yanny" in the original and the two downshifted versions, and "laurel" in the three upshifted ones - fascinating!

#775 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 06:12 PM:

With all the discussions of "yanny vs laurel*" & "Green needle* or Brainstorm†", I am innevitably reminded of this story.

* These are the ones I hear.
† There are too many syllables for "brainstorm".

#776 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 08:34 PM:

KeithS #770: I'm also not sure what a "yanny" is supposed to be.

Well, they've been illustrating a lot of those articles with pictures of Yanni.

#777 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 18, 2018, 08:38 PM:

And Jacque #775: Yep, that's my life, though my errors aren't usually quite that malappropriate.

#778 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: May 19, 2018, 03:59 AM:

I just blasted my way thru Murderbot: Artificial Condition and all I can say is WOW.

#779 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: May 19, 2018, 12:33 PM:

I've only heard the clip once, but it didn't sound like either Yanny or Laurel to me. Just a confused sound that I'd be hard-pressed to transliterate in any way. I have normal hearing as far as I'm aware.

#780 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: May 19, 2018, 12:34 PM:

Transcribe, I mean.

#781 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: May 19, 2018, 03:38 PM:

"Yanny" is Newfoundland dialect. It means "yeah, Annie." ;-)

#782 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 02:52 PM:

AKICIML (repost from earlier mispost):

I collect triplets of word that matching this specification:

  1. Word with meaning A,
  2. Word with meaning B (where B != A),
  3. Word that can mean either A or B, or sometimes both.
After years of looking, I've come up with only two sets:
  1. PALACE, an extremely large and luxurious house;
  2. FORTRESS, a defensible military installation; and
  3. CASTLE, which can be either (or, rarely, both).
AND
  1. STACK, an orderly vertical arrangement of items (ob.fandom: Trimble's Law);
  2. HEAP, a disorderly mass of items, with shape tending toward a normal curve; and
  3. PILE, which can be either (but IME never both).
I'm certain there must be other triples of this kind, but I seem to have a block when it comes to thinking of them. Anyone have more?

(Yes, I know that several of these have metaphorical and/or specialized uses. Those aren't the uses I'm talking about here.)

#783 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 05:41 PM:

Xopher (782): Do A and B have to be related? If not, just think of a word that means two different things, then a single word for each definition:

A) CAT
B) POT, as in poker
C) KITTY

(The poker senses of 'pot' and 'kitty' actually seem to be slightly different, but my family used them interchangeably.)

#784 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 05:43 PM:

782/783: Or, for more closely related words:

A) NICKEL
B) DIME
C) COIN

'Quarter' or 'penny' would also work for A and B, of course.

#785 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 06:15 PM:

Either I'm missing something major in what you're looking for, Xopher, or this is too easy:

A) MOTHER
B) FATHER
C) PARENT

A) SIBLING
B) NUN
C) SISTER (could be either or both)

I'm trying to think of something for 'recorder' (musical instrument vs making a recording), but I can't quite get it.

#786 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 07:36 PM:

Or, perhaps,

FILE (found in a folder)
LP
RECORD (either, not both)

#787 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 07:40 PM:

I am grateful for all the kind words. This has been a very hard week. Grief and memory take you to unexpected places.

#788 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 07:40 PM:

I am grateful for all the kind words. This has been a very hard week. Grief and memory take you to unexpected places.

#789 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 20, 2018, 08:17 PM:

Tom Whitmore (786): Good one!

#790 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 12:55 AM:

Two obscurish color triplets: crimson/gilt/vermeil; red/green/sinople.

Do homographs count, such as pig/plant/sow and rainfall/displayer/shower? Or the general category of autoantonyms such as flammable or secrete?

#791 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 01:20 AM:

(Oops, meant ”inflammable” of course.)

#792 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 10:56 AM:

And then there's "cleave" which is another autoantonym (thanks for that word, Julie L!)

And "fast" which is a sort-of-sideways autoantonym; if you make a line fast it's not going anywhere fast.

#793 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 12:55 PM:

And if you're on a fast, you won't move very fast, and you might stick fast to home.

#794 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 02:18 PM:

Tom Whitmore, "fast" and "last" are the only two words I know that can be nouns, verbs, adjectives, or adverbs.

#795 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 03:03 PM:

Which means they're both very ripe for Xopher's game: or a sentence like "Lastly, the shoemaker's last last lasts longest."

#796 ::: Steven desJardins ::: (view all by) ::: May 21, 2018, 11:43 PM:

Merriam-Webster, coincidentally, just posted an article on the word "deadpan".

As an example of how quickly functional shift can take place let’s look at deadpan (“marked by an impassive matter-of-fact manner, style, or expression”), a word that came to English just over a century ago, and already occupies four distinct parts of speech.

Deadpan may be an adjective (“she responded with a deadpan voice”), an adverb (“he delivered his lines deadpan”), a noun (“I expected an emotional response, not a deadpan”), or a verb (“we deadpanned our way through the routine”).

#797 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: May 22, 2018, 08:02 AM:

@796, I've never seen or heard "deadpan" used as a noun, but I'll yield to Merriam-Webster on that point.

#798 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 22, 2018, 09:53 AM:

@797, um, it's been many many years since English class, but isn't "deadpan" in “I expected an emotional response, not a deadpan” modifying an implicit noun, "response" there? Like saying, "I wanted a blue M&M, not a green," which really is shorthand for "I wanted a blue M&M, not a green M&M."

So I'd've thought that "deadpan" in that example is an adjective. Am I wrong?

#799 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: May 22, 2018, 11:19 AM:

Cassy B @798: I don't know about official grammar, but my native-instinct tells me that 'deadpan' there is acceptable as either a modifier on an implicit noun or as a noun zero-derived* from the adjective, while your M&M example doesn't give me the same feeling.

'A deadpan', to me, carries enough context to be its own noun, while 'a green' in the M&M sentence definitely doesn't (the same sequence of sounds can of course be a noun in other contexts, but with a completely different meaning).

I might be biased by the fact that I like zero-derivation part-of-speech changes a lot, and use them freely (e.g., "I don't coffee" zero-derives the verb 'to coffee' from the noun 'coffee').

*zero-derivation: changing from one part of speech to another without changing the form of the word, as opposed to, say, deriving by adding a suffix. 'To noun' vs 'to nounify'.

#800 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: May 22, 2018, 11:19 AM:

Cassy B @798: I don't know about official grammar, but my native-speaker instinct tells me that 'deadpan' there is acceptable as either a modifier on an implicit noun or as a noun zero-derived* from the adjective, while your M&M example doesn't give me the same feeling.

'A deadpan', to me, carries enough context to be its own noun, while 'a green' in the M&M sentence definitely doesn't (the same sequence of sounds can of course be a noun in other contexts, but with a completely different meaning).

I might be biased by the fact that I like zero-derivation part-of-speech changes a lot, and use them freely (e.g., "I don't coffee" zero-derives the verb 'to coffee' from the noun 'coffee').

*zero-derivation: changing from one part of speech to another without changing the form of the word, as opposed to, say, deriving by adding a suffix. 'To noun' vs 'to nounify'.

#801 ::: Sandy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 22, 2018, 11:45 AM:

"Deadpan" as a noun, if I encountered it in the wild, would feel obsolete to me. As originally the "pan" was the face, and a deadpan would have been an unmoving face, in the Long Ago.

(Note: I just searched on this to make sure it wasn't my youthful brain giving me a convincing explanation which I then did not check for 40 years. Nope! It's valid 1920's slang according to at least one source.)

#802 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 22, 2018, 12:17 PM:

estelendur @799: "zero-derivation"

This is my new shiny for the day. I also have a coworker who delights in verbing nouns, who will likely be tickled by this construction. (She's young enough that pointing out "verbing nouns" as an example of itself made her laugh. For her it was just a standard expression.)

Sandy B. @801: Of which Buster Keaton was the quintessential practitioner.

#803 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 23, 2018, 02:51 AM:

Lite-night OTing: Just woke from a complex but generally hopeful dream (woken from something in the dream -- I'd burned my finger on a (smoking-type) pipe, and could still feel it when I woke.

Went out front for a smoke, and found a toad sitting on my doorstep! (Apparently a Fowler's Toad).

I petted it with my finger a couple of times, and it hopped onto the walk. In the course of identifying it, I learned that finding a toad on your doorstep seems to be a good omen....

#804 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 23, 2018, 02:56 AM:

Apparently, having a toad enter the house is even better, but a modern house is not a good place for amphibians (too dry), so I was happy enough to see it heading toward the lawn instead.

And I was pretty sure it wasn't one of Yolen's from Emerald Circus, where I'd recently gotten past that story. ;-)

#805 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 23, 2018, 08:33 AM:

Hmph: Mating dinosaurs on the net.

While looking up frogs/toads, I hit an Ask Yahoo link, and got hit with a new unilateral TOS. This may be old news to many of you, but I hadn't heard about it, and they're CTA'ing like nobody's business (so to speak). Hmph! Hmph, I say! Heavily excerpted below:
---------
AOL and Yahoo have come together as Oath, a part of Verizon. By continuing to use our services, you agree to Oath’s new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.

We’ve updated some of the ways we collect and analyze user data. This includes: analyzing content and information when you use our services, linking your activity on third-party sites and apps with information we have about you, and providing anonymized and aggregated reporting.

Oath and its affiliates may share the information we receive with Verizon.

We also combine data among our services and across your devices and Oath accounts. This allows us to provide more personalized content, advertising and services.

The Oath Business-to-Business Privacy Policy applies when you use Flurry, Gemini, ONE by AOL, Convertro, BrightRoll or any other Oath business-to-business products. All other consumer-facing activities are covered by the Oath Privacy Policy.

We’ve added a mutual arbitration clause.

We’ve also added a class action waiver.

We’ve specified the legal entity that provides each service to you.

If you are using our services on behalf of another account owner ([...]) or on behalf of a company, business or other entity, the Terms of Service apply to your activities and are binding on the account owner or entity.

we’ve added an indemnity provision, which requires you and the entity to protect us against certain legal actions.

We’ve updated our choice of law and forum provisions. New York law now governs and New York, New York is the designated forum.

#806 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 23, 2018, 12:14 PM:

Dave: This smells like a collision between EU General Data Protection Plan and that recent Supreme Court ruling.

I've heard that Duck Duck Go is a search engine that doesn't track you. Don't have a sense of its efficacy compared to others.

#807 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 23, 2018, 03:36 PM:

I keep forgetting to post this entry in Xopher's word game:

A) PORNOGRAPHIC
B) MATURE
C) ADULT

#808 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 23, 2018, 09:08 PM:

Jacque #806: And indeed, DDG is my default search engine. Which threw up an Ask Yahoo page, which threw up the above PTOS. That is, Yahoo's "properties" were being presented as part of the collective infostore of the Web.

#809 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 08:31 AM:

Is it just me, or does everything have a tiptoeing-past-the-graveyard feel these days?

#810 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 09:05 AM:

Fragano (809): Not just you.

#811 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 11:19 AM:

Dave: You may have an Ask.com infection in your browser. It has this nasty tendancy to invite itself onto one's machine without permission. This is also, apparently, a vector for malware.

#812 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 02:00 PM:

#809: Me too. This is the worst it has been since November 2016.

#813 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 02:03 PM:

@809, When world leaders start blustering and hinting about using nuclear weapons because they got their feelings hurt... yes.

#814 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 05:02 PM:

Jacque #811: Well, I'm using Firefox on Ubuntu, and Ask doesn't show up in the extensions list. I'm not sure where else I can look or where else it might be able to take hold.

#815 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 10:01 PM:

84
A fast search found this:
https://malwaretips.com/blogs/search-ask-com-removal/

#816 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 24, 2018, 10:02 PM:

Aaarrrggghhh! the ohnosecond:
that's 814 not 84.

#817 ::: SunflowerP ::: (view all by) ::: May 25, 2018, 01:29 AM:

Jacque @806, I switched over to DDG several years back, as part of an ongoing effort to reduce my reliance on Google, and was delighted to find that it seemed to be more effective at finding what I wanted.

#818 ::: Jenny Islander ::: (view all by) ::: May 25, 2018, 02:04 AM:

AKICIML: I just got smacked with a You Must Agree With Our New TOS when I tried to visit a site that uses Disqus. Anything I should be wary of?

#819 ::: crazysoph ::: (view all by) ::: May 25, 2018, 03:32 AM:

Twitter-consent-by-hostage-taking refugee here... never mind me, I'm just pouting in the corner.

I'm trying to get my brains into enough sharpness to deal with this by installing a second browser, then using the original browser as a sandbox for websites pulling this crap. (yeah, I know, I could have *expected* it, but in an ideal world there would have been much more transparency regarding new data-collection and -sharing rules before this point. "Here, sign THIS or we withdraw all service" is neither friendly nor respectful.)

Anyway, it's too early for beer in this corner of the 'Verse, so I'm drinking home-brewed (cold-brewed in the fridge) iced tea. Thanks for listening and being here.

Crazy(and hey, if I manage the sand-boxing browser trick, I might decide to get active again on LJ)Soph

#820 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 25, 2018, 06:22 AM:

Jenny Islander #818: In fact, pretty much everyone is changing their TOS right now. Most of them are moving toward the new European privacy standard, which is a general improvement over American "standards".

I was calling out Ask Yahoo first because I got that popup on what I had thought of as an informational page, not a "service"... and second because those clauses I called out, are surely not in line with the European call for increased user privacy and protection.

Incidentally, testing of my Linux system indicates I have indeed been hit by a rootkit, but further research suggests it is a server attack, largely neutered by my (purposeful) failure to install certain system services (and probably not connected to Yahoo).

Nevertheless, I will need to do a clean reinstall,which is unfortunately not likely in the next few weeks (family vacation to Spain coming up, reaching crunch time for preparation). On the other hand, I was planning to get new computers soon anyway.

#821 ::: crazysoph ::: (view all by) ::: May 26, 2018, 08:05 AM:

AKICIML

So, wondering if anyone else has been going through Tw*tt*r's various TOS' with a fine-tooth comb. If so, what have you got for a reaction to this one?

https://help.twitter.com/en/safety-and-security/data-through-partnerships

I am afraid it's hard for me to concentrate and pull out the necessary stuff to fight my own corner.

Crazy(more so as events warrant...)Soph

#822 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: May 27, 2018, 07:31 AM:

Falling under "History doesn't repeat, but it rhymes": Currency Reform In Ancient Rome.

TL;DR: Four lesser-known Emperors tried to interrupt the progressive debasement of Roman currency. Each had a non-military background, and besides trying to reform the currency, they tried to deal with neighbors in non-hostile fashion... but this led directly to their respective overthrows by the Roman military.

#823 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: May 27, 2018, 05:56 PM:

Michael Swanwick reports that Gardner Dozois has died.

My heart is heavy.

#824 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 27, 2018, 06:15 PM:

823
I was expecting it from the time I heard what the doctors were dealing with. (Systemic infections/failures are not good news.)
Dang. We'll miss him.

#825 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: May 27, 2018, 07:40 PM:

Dozois? Oh, crap. Isn't he the one who does those massive Best SF of the year collections that appear in summertime?
Seems we've sure had a lot of people dying lately.

#826 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: May 27, 2018, 08:33 PM:

For those who never got to spend time with Gardner, there's a two-hour YouTube panel with him, Howard Waldrop and George RR Martin: it features strong language, descriptions of nudity, and tales of their history at SF conventions over the years. Sensibilities were different in those days. Watch at your own discretion.

#827 ::: Soon Lee ::: (view all by) ::: May 28, 2018, 04:20 AM:

I never met Gardner in person. I didn't expect news of his death to hit as hard. I first interacted with Gardner online at the old Asimov's Forum where he made newbies like myself very welcome. I already knew of him (I mean, his year's best SF collections were essential reading if you wanted a good snapshot of the state of the genre, and it was here that I read many up & coming writers for the first time). I remember him, not only for his immense influence as editor, but also for his kindness and great sense of humour.

(It's been a challenging year & though I have been checking in sporadically, I haven't felt moved to comment. I broke my knee last July and spent six weeks in a knee brace. The pins that were put in place to hold the pieces together did their job & the metalware was removed last month, so I am (thankfully) on my last sequence of rehab.)

#828 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: May 28, 2018, 09:16 AM:

Soon Lee, thanks for sharing the good news. Amid everything else, a note of positive progress is quite welcome.

(But stay off the pogo stick a while longer!)

#829 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: May 28, 2018, 10:26 AM:

Dozois was a regular at the campus SF convention I helped run an ungodly number of years ago. A good guy.

#830 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: May 28, 2018, 09:10 PM:

Gardner was a weird mix: a clown in public (the video Tom W points to is intermittently hilarious but not nearly the most scandalous public appearance), but as the third editor of Asimov's someone who dragged it out of the founding editor's narrow approach and made it the top magazine in the field -- IIRC it tended to have about half the Hugo nominations for short fiction until e-zines radically expanded that market. It's possible he was as positively influential as Campbell without the bullying, let alone the periodic pseudoscience.

Xopher @ 782: maybe an idle (or otherwise useless, or actively vagrant) mind helps? Depending on how close a coupling is required (as in, can A/B be instances/examples of C (or vice-versa) rather than an exact match), my observation of strange staging(*) produced

CASSETTE
BARRIER
TAPE

8-TRACK
SHELL/ROUND/BULLET (they're all stretches)
CARTRIDGE

CD
FRISBEE
DISK

DISK
SAVINGS
CD

(These while staggering home from an exercise session, which I've been neglecting recently while S-L-O-W-L-Y rehabbing from a stupid minor injury that has blocked major physical interests.)

(*): this is apparently a term of art for what realtors now do to make a property more attractive. (I was last shopping 24 years ago, when plausible homes were either buck-naked or lived in.) A place we might have to move to (due to partner's increasing difficulty with stairs) was mostly empty, but showed signs of staging -- and a box of cartridges in an obvious storage area; I don't know whether this decoration or not-yet-moved, but it was strange in a building erected in 1989.

#831 ::: Andrew Plotkin ::: (view all by) ::: May 28, 2018, 09:22 PM:

crazysoph #821: "So, wondering if anyone else has been going through Tw*tt*r's various TOS' with a fine-tooth comb."

No doubt every company's TOS has been carefully read by a couple of people, but no Internet-active human can read all of the terms they agree to.

I'd complain, but I've been going over the 25-page draft TOS that our lawyer sent us for the non-profit I help run. So I'm going to be inflicting more of same on the planet. I hate to, but apparently you can't run a Kardashev-0.7 civilization without legal documents.

You ask about the "Sharing your data with Twitter’s business partners" page. It seems fairly clear. (One of the nice things about the GDPR push is that companies *are* writing pages in fairly clear language.)

They're talking about ad networks. Twitter feeds out vast quantities of information to ad networks, which then select ads to show you. (Whether the selection process is any *good* is another whole discussion; I don't know or care.)

I don't exactly get the difference between "Real-Time Bidding" and "Conversion Tracking", but you can turn them both off with the "share your data with Twitter's business partners" setting (linked on that page). Then you will see bottom-drawer, untargeted, generic ads -- a tragic outcome, I'm sure.

#832 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 28, 2018, 11:03 PM:

File770 has a page ( http://file770.com/?p=42443 ) with stories about Gardner.
I posted a link to the thread about D&S....

#833 ::: crazysoph ::: (view all by) ::: May 29, 2018, 02:16 AM:

Sad, sad news about Dozois. His annual anthologies remain a touchstone in my sf reading experience. I definitely feel like I grew as a reader thanks not only to his choices as an editor, but also by reading his own round-ups in those same anthologies of the past year's creative activities of authors, expanding my repertoire of ways to read fiction.

Andrew Plotkin @ 831 - thank you for having answered my cri du coeur. *wan grin* You're right, of course. Also, I have since been helped to find other avenues to pursue, such as making a proper complaint to the local privacy people.

Oh, and thanks extra for the feedback on those pages - I appreciate the confirmation because by the time I'd finished that particular research session, I was *so* *tired* of it all that I didn't trust myself to have gotten the important stuff. You've done me a real favor.

The various sliders/check-outs, of course, are all available when I log in again - which means I don't get to without being strong-armed into "consent": an issue which is at the heart of my formal complaint to the privacy commission. I'm hoping they can at least advise me as to whether I can give this fake-consent without complicating their own work on my initial problem...

Crazy(but coming to terms with her situation)Soph

#834 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: May 29, 2018, 08:21 PM:

Dismal open-threadiness: the updated casualty estimates for Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico (~5000 people) are even more horrifying when you consider them as a percentage of the island’s total population, which is only about 3.4 million people. By comparison, NYC’s population is about 8.5 million; the equivalent percentage would be about 12,000.

On a slightly happier note, it has now been one year since my retinal detachment was properly diagnosed and initially reattached, though it took a second procedure to keep it welded back in. Things are still blurry on that side, but at least they’re not completely blacked out.

#835 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: May 30, 2018, 04:23 AM:

On TOS and other contract stuff, in general.

One online-game I sometimes use has a set of TOS documents that, the last time anyone tried to count, was at over a quarter of a million words.

However you look at it, this is stupid. This is rather as if Christopher Tolkien had published the whole of the "History of Middle Earth" under the title "The Hobbit".

A lot of it looks like a bad case of Editing-by-addition. It's even worse for the game's "documentation", and it astonishes me how the software maintenance can still work.

With some US companies pulling up the drawbridge on Europe, it doesn't look good.

The good news is that this particular US company isn't embroiled in the whole targeted advertising thing. There is a small cluster of companies involved in providing the game and handling player payments, and that's it. I can't call the Privacy Policy well-written, it's not up to the standard of the school essays I was writing over 40 years ago. And I have seen legal documents that are better written.

One of the things I think they might have missed is the server infrastructure the game depends on. I don't expect the critical personal data is being passed around as part of the game, but I wonder about the server for the web page where you register, and submit your ordinary personal data. That seems a common enough situation that there ought to be some legal boiler-plate on it.

#836 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: May 30, 2018, 09:57 AM:

The Hugo Packet is out at
http://www.worldcon76.org/hugo/packet.php

Many people (including me!) have not received the notification email, so this is a Public Service Announcement. Use your nominating name and PIN.

The files are very large, so download them when/where you have bandwidth!

The Hugo administrators say that the emails went out; it's unclear why they're not reaching people. Perhaps some major blacklist company decided that they're spam...?

#837 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: May 30, 2018, 12:06 PM:

836
Kevin Standlee says sometimes emails don't go through for reasons unknown - not into spam folder, not into inbox, just *nowhere*. He's had it happen to him.
(It's like sometimes my paper phone bill doesn't show up. I don't know where it went, but *I* didn't get it.)

#838 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: May 30, 2018, 11:46 PM:

In case I forget, remind me that I think Geoffrey Landis is an asshole.

#839 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: May 31, 2018, 09:18 AM:

Cassy B. @ 836:

Thanks for letting us know. I didn't get the email at all. Fortunately, I'm already halfway caught up on my reading this year.

#840 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: May 31, 2018, 11:57 AM:

Xopher: Okay, I'll bite: What'd he do?

#841 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: May 31, 2018, 02:35 PM:

#826 ::: Tom Whitmore

Thanks for the link. The Dozois/Waldrop/Martin panel is delightful.

#842 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: May 31, 2018, 10:51 PM:

Jacque 840: A lot of people are having a little trouble with the distinction between "WisCon did this thing that I think was wrong" and "WisCon is a bad evil con and no one should ever go to it." He was being particularly rude about it

#843 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: June 03, 2018, 07:03 PM:

For Jacque: Kitty and Guinea Pig

(if you're on Twitter, check out Land of Cuteness.)

#844 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: June 03, 2018, 07:31 PM:

That guinea pig looks a lot like our cat Mr. Tippy -- in attitude, at least. He's been referred to as "Zoolander" several times.

#845 ::: Jenny Islander ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 01:26 AM:

HLN: Area woman finds self watching movie on cable for the first time in a long time and discovers that while it is OK to see dozens of innocent people gunned down by Neo and Trinity to the accompaniment of a cool soundtrack, it's still not OK to hear any of those innocent people cuss on TV.

#846 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 11:50 AM:

Jenny Islander @845: "You can show a dozen guys murderin’ each other on TV but you can’t ever show two people making love. A naked blade is reckoned to be less obscene than a naked woman." -- Callahan's Crosstime Saloon

#847 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 12:04 PM:

Joel Polowin @846:

I just finished binge-watching Altered Carbon on Netflix. It showed a dozen guys murderin' each other, and it showed two people making love. It even showed a naked woman wielding a naked blade.

Of course, Netflix is neither cable nor broadcast TV. But Premium Cable (HBO, Showtime) has deemed it OK to allow innocent people to cuss on TV and show people making love, or naked women, for decades.

Now naked men on the other hand...

(To be fair, while Altered Carbon did have gratuitous levels of naked women and patriarchal sexual exploitation, as well as gratuitous levels of violence, there were definitely a few naked men, including male frontal nudity.)

#848 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 12:23 PM:

Xopher @842: Ah, got it. Well, assholes is as assholes does....

Steve C. @843: Oh my god that's adorable. The guinea pig looks a little dubious about the proposition, but hey! Being snuggled not eaten, right?

In not unrelated news, I think I've told this story here before but, I committed a Twitter thread last night in response to another piggy post.

::falls down the clickhole ::

For Teresa.

#849 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 12:28 PM:

LMB has a new Vorkosigan e-novella, “The Flowers of Vashnoi”

#850 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 02:30 PM:

Dave Bell @835, re: "One online-game I sometimes use has a set of TOS documents that, the last time anyone tried to count, was at over a quarter of a million words. [...] A lot of it looks like a bad case of Editing-by-addition. It's even worse for the game's "documentation", and it astonishes me how the software maintenance can still work."

It's sounding like more work by Travis Tee.

#851 ::: Rob Rusick ::: (view all by) ::: June 04, 2018, 10:12 PM:

Jenny Islander @ 845:

I liked The Matrix well enough when I first saw it (with a promotional ticket - they needed to make sure some people got to see this movie) but there was a scene where the phrase 'shell casings falling like rose petals' came to mind (some metaphor for 'romanticized violence' I imagine). I think the movie had already established that everyone who died in the illusionary world died in real life.

#852 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 08:06 AM:

Rob Rusick #851: I think the movie had already established that everyone who died in the illusionary world died in real life.

Well, most of those people would have been in pods, so I figure the Matrix basically was their real life. IIRC, it's not clear what happens to (pod-)people who were taken over by agents, after the agents were done with them. Given Cypher's example, would there be anything left of the person?

But now I'm wondering about those variously-enlightened folks who were hanging around the Oracle... was she able to defend the lot of them, or was there a hands-off policy because of the Oracle's importance to the AIs?

#853 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 12:55 PM:

AKICIML, Movie Quotes Edition: I've been using this quote for ages (as a metaphore for when somebody needs to be, um, "handled."):

"Can I wash his car boss? Can I take him for a ride?"

As I originally heard it, it's said in a distinctly Peter Lorre kind of voice. Odds are good that it's a mangle or a parody of the actual original quote.

Anybody care to hazard a guess for its provenence?

#854 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 12:58 PM:

Oh yeah: the original likely hails from (at least) before 1989. I'm guessing early noir. Google comes up dry.

#855 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 01:45 PM:

@843/848: the guinea pig definitely looks spooked to me -- but the hamsters are special; I didn't know they could get that flat. Overweight, or just very relaxed?

#856 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 03:30 PM:

CHip @855: I believe the hamsters are just very relaxed. Related video on how to make flat hamsters. There isn't a lot of structured substance to their body; they can squeeze through very tiny gaps, after all.

#857 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 04:46 PM:

CHip: I wouldn't say "spooked"; no white rimming the eyes. But definitely Paying Attention.

My guess on the flat hamsters: heat. My guinea pigs will get oblate like that in high summer.

estelendur: My favorite part of that video is the slightly dodgey translation.

#858 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: June 05, 2018, 06:34 PM:

I just heard from my cousin Beverly, the only person from my mother's family with whom I'm in any kind of contact. She has bladder cancer and is on chemo. GoodThoughts for a positive outcome would be welcomed.

#859 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: June 06, 2018, 01:05 PM:

Lee @ 858 ...
Good Thoughts heading that way!

#860 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: June 06, 2018, 05:52 PM:

I never expected that Dolt45 would crash all the way back to Charles I. The King can do no wrong. Next, will Rudy the Feckless find legal theory proclaiming that Dolt45 is God Incarnate? Or perhaps he's aiming a little lower and will only declare the Dotard Messiah.

#861 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: June 06, 2018, 09:34 PM:

I remind those present that 'Pharaoh' means "Great House," and originally applied to the palace.

See also "White House." Do the math.

#862 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: June 06, 2018, 10:28 PM:

And "otaku" means "your honorable house".

#863 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: June 06, 2018, 11:57 PM:

What I meant was, when Trump starts referring to himself as "the White House," watch out.

#864 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: June 07, 2018, 12:18 AM:

Would it help if Canada solemnly promised not to burn the White House down a second time?

#865 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: June 07, 2018, 11:03 AM:

Xopher, now that you're here again, we were having fun with your word puzzle upthread. Is any of that what you had in mind?

#866 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 07, 2018, 11:09 AM:

Joel: Mm...no? (We may, at some point, need a little help....)

#867 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: June 08, 2018, 12:20 PM:

Jacque @866 - We haven't done it even once yet; in 1816, it was done by British troops (Canada not even being a nation at the time). It's a chore that I think should be shared out.

I'm very upset by the results of yesterday's election in Ontario: a Conservative majority. Both Inge and I have severe long-term health problems that were exacerbated by hospital underfunding, and the Conservatives have historically slashed things like health care funding. The other two parties were promising to work towards socialized funding of things like prescription medications, and at present I'm spending about 1/4 of my income on medications -- it would have made a big difference for me. My guts have been cramping this morning, almost certainly in reaction to the news.

#868 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: June 08, 2018, 02:41 PM:

File 770 suffered a DDOS attack yesterday. All is well now.

Correlation != causation, but it's worth noting that they've been spending significant time recently reporting on the ConCarolinas clusterfuck.

#869 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: June 08, 2018, 04:59 PM:

A while back Avram mentioned Spike Trotman's latest comic anthology project FTL, Y'all! in which a bunch of comic writers and artists do stories spinning off from the concept of an ultra-low-cost FTL drive.

Anyway, it went live on Kickstarter yesterday and is already fully funded, so for those interested in SFnal comics, please check it out. Spike's Iron Circus anthologies tend to be very interesting, well-produced, and collect a huge range of writers, artists, and styles.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ironspike/ftl-yall-tales-from-the-age-of-the-200-warp-drive

#870 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: June 08, 2018, 06:40 PM:

The Thing in the Walls Wants Your Small Change just went onto my Hugo nominations longlist for 2019. Content warning: the plot revolves around an abusive family relationship, but the ending is a warm-fuzzy payoff.

#871 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 09, 2018, 12:41 PM:

So: yesterday they did the surgery on my boob, and it's fairly non-painful (so far, it's barely to the level of "does it need Tylenol?"). Drains. Dye for something-or-other medical, so I'm peeing blue still.
But otherwise, it's okay. (I don't remember anything from after they got the leg BP monitor on, a safety-strap fastened, and my IV arm laid on a rest, until waking up in the recovery room about an hour and a half later.)
Fun things: chest X-ray in bed with a portable machine (about the size of an industrial floor polisher) and an EKG in bed, with something more like a laptop (but lots of leads).

#872 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 09, 2018, 01:41 PM:

P J Evans: I have my issues with modern medicine (particularly some practioners thereof), but there are times when it does truly rock.

Meanwhile, a new pain scale. Nicely complements Allie's over at Hyperbole and a Half.

#873 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 09, 2018, 03:15 PM:

872
Biggest complaint: the instructions say to change the dressing, but they didn't include *any* information on what that involves, nor did they throw in any gauze pads or tape for a start.

(On the other hand, they put in a pee cup with no mention of it anywhere.)

#874 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 10:32 AM:

So, I’m 4000-odd miles from home... I don't think I ever got around to posting about the run-up to this, but I’m with my family on a 2-week vacation to Spain. We're starting with 3 days in Madrid, but right now we're mostly recovering from the flight; 3 hours of delay and 8 of flight, of which we lost 5 to relativity time zones. We did get out a bit to a plaza and a restaurant, but even that left us pretty wiped.

#875 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 03:34 PM:

P J Evans: Per my parenthetical. :-\ :-)

David: Whereabouts in Spain?

#876 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 03:37 PM:

Meanwhile, it's mid-June, and 92°. In a string of days in the 80s & 90s. But global warning is a Chinese hoax.

#877 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 04:16 PM:

Jacque #875: Madrid, San Sebastián, Costa Brava (3 towns), Barcelona. Except for the day trip around the Costa Brava area, we’re staying several days in each city.

It promises to be pretty great, despite only two of us knowing any Spanish to speak of. (I got a Dummies book, but didn’t start reading it nearly early enough, and I’m further handicapped by my hearing loss.)

#878 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 04:28 PM:

874
Two weeks is just about long enough for your body to adjust to the time difference. And then you come back and have to do it all over again. (I've been to the UK. For me it was a 10-hour overnight flight, and 8 hours of time difference, going east.)

#879 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 08:57 PM:

estelendur@856: I guess it's the hamster cheek pouches that make the skull in that video seem to have flattened. Knowing this doesn't make it less impressive, rather like a well-done magic trick.

Fragano@860: Haven't we been here before? Something about Shrub (or one of his consiglieri/keepers) telling us "If the President does it, that means it's legal"?

In recent news, UK author is shocked that Penguin will no longer require staff to have degrees. My immediate reaction was to wonder whether she's even heard of Tor....

#880 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 10, 2018, 09:11 PM:

879
I wonder if she's even noticed how many of those "big name" writers she seems to prefer need editing before publishing. Or that most publishers wouldn't let something go to press that was unreadable. (I wonder how her sales are, and who buys her books.)

#881 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: June 11, 2018, 01:20 AM:

Mary Aileen 865: I enjoyed looking at them. I was thinking of things a bit more closely semantically linked, but so far I haven't been able to clearly articulate exactly how. PALACE - FORTRESS - CASTLE are all buildings and a castle can be either of the others, but nothing else. STACK - HEAP - PILE are all organizational states of multiple objects; a pile is in this sense pretty narrowly defined; it's either a stack or a heap.

CAT - POT - KITTY isn't a set all in the same class. COIN can be lots of things other than a nickel or a dime; it's a broad classname.

MOTHER - FATHER - PARENT is pretty good, actually. SISTER has the same issue as KITTY.

FILE - LP - RECORD is a solid case.

Tom 786: Yes! Thank you.

Julie 790: See my comments to Mary Aileen. And thanks for the word 'autoantonym', which I will treasure!

Mary Aileen 807: Pretty good. Not sure MATURE is distinct enough from PORNOGRAPHIC, as it's also used in that sense ("mature content" and so on). I remember one of my favorite lines from a Steve Jackson resource book was that the game was "adult in the usual sense; that is, more sex and less violence."

#882 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 11, 2018, 09:16 AM:

David Harmon @877: Barcelona

So you get to see Sagrada Família, if you're of a mind! (I think Gaudi must have been one of my artistic ancestors.)

It promises to be pretty great, despite only two of us knowing any Spanish to speak of.

Whowever in your crew's got smart-phones, they're in charge of keeping Google Translate running.

Xopher Halftongue @881: a castle can be either of the others, but nothing else.

Chess move. But, yeah, not in the spirit of your game.

#883 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 11, 2018, 10:35 AM:

Spain today: Royal Palace tour, browning lunch at the market (tapas etc.); churros-and-chocolate! And now for a nap.

Sleep cycles: I cheated with a melatonin mix (Emergen-Z) on the plane, it does seem to have helped. I didn’t take it last night, but i think I’ll take it again again tonight to try and set it more firmly.

#884 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: June 11, 2018, 11:06 AM:

CHip #879: Before that there was Nixon. "If the president does it, then its not illegal."

#885 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: June 11, 2018, 11:36 AM:

Xopher (881): Thansk for the feedback; I knew I must be missing an important aspect of your quest.

I meant 'mature' as in 'not a child', but you're right about the problem with it. I initially had 'grown-up', but that's not exactly a single word.

#886 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: June 11, 2018, 08:34 PM:

Jacque 882: Chess move. But, yeah, not in the spirit of your game.

But a castle can be either a fortress or a palace within that one definition. The building-class definition of 'castle' includes both palaces and fortresses (and buildings that combine both).

#887 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 01:36 AM:

Xopher @881: Hmm. Two more terms that might be useful in this context are “parasynonym” (something that is almost a synonym but not exactly) and “co-hyponyms” (different specific words that could lump into the same “hypernym” general category word). All of which I learned just now from ransacking the web for shiny new geekage w00t.

So mother/father (parent) and vole/whale (mammal) would be examples of the latter, but not the former. I dunno, slap on the reflexive prefix again and call your word category “autoparasynonyms”?

#888 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 09:56 AM:

@885, I refer to Ursula Vernon's "T. Kingfisher" books as "grown-up books", because the term "adult books" has too many invalid connotations. (Unless, perhaps, she finishes the sword romance; she's hinted that there are sexy-times in that one...) She made her name (and uses her real name) as a children's author.

#889 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 10:24 AM:

Cassy B. (888): There's a story, probably apocryphal, about a library that bowed to community pressure and barred children under eighteen from checking out adult books. Shortly thereafter, a child tried to check out a Bible and was not allowed because it was part of the adult collection. In the ensuing uproar, it became apparent that the community had been parsing 'adult' as in 'adult bookstore' rather than the library usage of "not juvenile, not YA." Oops.

#890 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 10:30 AM:

I've been wondering, does the British "biscuit" cover exactly the same things as the American cookie? Is there anything which would be in one category but not the other?

I don't have anything specific in mind, it's just that desserts are so varied.

#891 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 11:10 AM:

Nancy Lebovitz @890, I don't have an answer as such, but I understand vaguely that the central-category-members of the British category 'biscuit' are fairly different from the central-category-members of the American category 'cookie', in that biscuits are usually dry and crunchy, while cookie category membership is not determined in reference to texture.

@ people who actually know, is that accurate?

#892 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 11:12 AM:

Nancy Lebovitz @ #890:

I think the answer is no. Anything that's bendable is definitely not a biscuit. And there's a whole slew of American cookies that will readily bend.

I wouldn't classify crispbread as "biscuit" in UK parlance, but I think it technically qualifies.

#893 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 11:26 AM:

Nancy @890:

I'm not British, but based on my experience with biscuits and cookies, I strongly suspect that the British "biscuit" would cover an American Graham cracker. It's similar in sweetness and texture to some digestive biscuits I've had.

I don't tend to think of it as an American cookie, thought. It's sweet, but it doesn't have the right texture for a cookie.

#894 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 12:28 PM:

It's called a Graham cracker and not a Graham cookie. This being said, a typical American cracker is salty, not sweet.

Is there a British term for what Americans call a biscuit?

#895 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 12:52 PM:

Nancy Lebovits @ #894:

If the biscuits & gravy I've had are representative, yes, US biscuits are UK scones.

#896 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 12:55 PM:

Nancy @894:

As near as I can tell, there is no equivalent in British baking to an American biscuit. From watching others try to make a comparison, a scone seems to be the go-to comparison. But that is often rejected, as a scone and an American biscuit are much different.

At one point I knew of a British-American bread/baking translation guide. It might be worth looking for again.

When watching the Great British Bake Off, I definitely had a problem when trying to figure out what various things were in American. Unfortunately, the Wikipedia descriptions weren't too helpful leading me to come up with translations like "Victoria sponge = cake", "Genoise sponge = cake", and similar.

#897 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 12:57 PM:

Nancy Lebovitz @ 890:

As an American who grew up in England, I have never found a satisfactory translation for biscuit (UK) into American English. Biscuits (UK) and cookies are intersecting but not fully overlapping sets.

Biscuits are typically hard and/or crunchy. They may or may not be sweet. They are typically small. They usually don't have chunky things (e.g. chocolate chips, macadamia nuts) mixed in, but sometimes they do. They might have a chocolate coating or some sort of sweet filling, or they might not.

Oreos are biscuits. A soft, chewy chocolate chip cookie isn't. A hard chocolate chip cookie isn't, really, except when it is. (I have had small chocolate chip biscuits, which would be considered cookies in the US, but they weren't drop cookies.)

An American Graham cracker[1] has the biscuit nature, except possibly for the size. Rich tea biscuits make a nice substitute when trying to make something with a Graham cracker crust from a texture and partial sweetness perspective, although the flavor isn't the same.

I wouldn't really consider digestive biscuits to be cookies, except maybe the chocolate-covered ones, but other people may have different opinions. (I'm also of the opinion that plain digestive biscuits aren't really worth eating in the first place.) Amusingly, McVitie's webpage uses the image of a crumbling, chocolate-covered digestive biscuit to illustrate their cookie policy.

And then there are Garibaldi biscuits, which I wouldn't describe as cookies, but people who consider fig rolls to be cookies might.

Wafer cookies are biscuits. Kit-Kats are biscuits.

Hardtack is technically a biscuit, and definitely not a cookie.

Most American cookies that are larger and softer are, as far as I recall, called cookies.

99% of the time you can probably close your eyes, translate biscuit into cookie, and get away with it, but it still wouldn't have quite the same context or feel.

I've also not found a good translation for biscuit (US) into British English, but I haven't tried as hard.

See also

Biscuit or cookie?

and

British desserts, explained for Americans confused by the Great British Baking Show

[1] And if you don't know the history behind Graham crackers, you're in for a treat. Seriously, Graham, Kellogg, and Post all had some decidedly odd ideas about diet.

And @ 894 and Ingvar M @ 895:

I wouldn't call American biscuits scones. Both the texture and flavor are wrong. That said, I haven't made a huge sampling of American biscuits, and I know that there is quite a variety of biscuit types out there.

I'd never in a million years put gravy on a scone. That would taste very strange.

#898 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 01:05 PM:

KeithS @ #897:

Most (if not all) of the biscuit&gravy I've had were made by a family member born in VW and raised in VA. And pretty much all scones I've had were made either in Sweden or the UK, by a variety of private individuals and companies. And when I say that I consider them the same, I am, really, considering them the same.

I will happily acknowledge that I suspect that what constitutes "biscuit" in the US probably varies from state to state, coast to coast, and quite possibly county to county. Specifically, nothing called "biscuit" I had in MD was even remotely like anything called biscuit on southern VA (but there's also the hotel (MD) and home (VA) factor here).

#899 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 01:13 PM:

I did find the following translation guide on a stack-exchange site. It covers US, UK, CA, and AU, plus many more categories than baking. The discussion of baked goods didn't necessarily help clarify things, as all the terms are different.
Translating Cooking Terms Between US, UK, AU, CA, NZ

There was a question on Quora a few weeks ago asking why biscuits and gravy (scones and béchamel) was a popular breakfast item in America. I found the thought of scones and béchamel disturbing.

#900 ::: estelendur ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 01:26 PM:

Michigander here: I have had and made pastries I call 'scones' that are actually quite similar to if not the same as some things I would call 'biscuits'. I'm not sure if these are what Ingvar is referring to, but they are dense, flaky, leavened with baking powder, and might have a milk- or egg-washed shiny top. They are equally good served sweet or savory. When they're scones I usually see them cut into triangles; when they're biscuits I usually see rounds or squares. I've only seen them called scones at artisanal bakeries. I suspect they would be perfectly delicious in biscuits and gravy if unflavored or savory.

The things that I see called scones at most coffee shops and stores are cake-like but much denser, usually covered in sugar, and filled with dried fruits and/or sweet flavorings. I agree that those would not be good in biscuits and gravy.

The other kind of biscuit I commonly encounter is very buttery, very flaky and layered, and I imagine would be overwhelming in biscuits and gravy.

#901 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 01:36 PM:

At some point I acquired an updated Mrs. Beeton’s cookbook here in the US, and was mystified by the existence of different chapters for “cakes” and “gateaux”. Never did figure out the precise distinction, although the gateau recipes did seem to average out fancier than the cake recipes. It wasn’t just a matter of continental origin, since iirc a US-style carrot cake was classified as a gateau.

Do biscotti/rusks qualify as UK biscuits? What about small meringues that are fluffy, yet crisp?

#902 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 02:06 PM:

Two nations divided by a common language.

Buddha Buck #899 I found the thought of scones and béchamel disturbing.

As well you might. That is hilarious in its almost-but-not-quiteness.

I think of scones and US biscuits as having a similar texture, but scones are sweet and often flavored with something (blueberry, orange, etc.) and biscuits are not.

Although now I'm remembering that my mother (a Virginia girl who learned to cook from my Texan grandmother, so double-barreled Southern) used to make a batch of baking powder biscuits with sugar added in order to use them as the base for strawberry shortcake. And I've made myself both hungry and nostalgic without enlightening the subject much at all.

#903 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 02:49 PM:

Plain scones, no additives, are closest in baking procedure to Southern biscuits, the difference in the recipes being that scones are cut in triangles and biscuits are round.

Add sugar to the Southern biscuit and you have shortcakes, suitable for serving with strawberries and whipped cream.

For a cream tea scone, add sugar to the basic scone recipe, and for pure decadence use the liquid left from making clotted cream in the scones rather than using milk.

I bake all of them.

#904 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 02:51 PM:

OtterB @202: SNAP!

#905 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 03:12 PM:

KeithS, #897: That's because scones are typically sweet, while American biscuits are bready/savory. Honey is the only sweet thing I can stand on a biscuit, and that moves it into the category of dessert. Putting gravy on a scone would be akin to putting it on a chocolate-chip cookie.

#906 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 03:52 PM:

902
That's what my mother's shortcakes and cobbler toppings were like - sweetened biscuits. It's how I always think they should be. (Try allspice in the dough - it makes them better. Especially with, say, peaches.) The "shortcakes" were three or four inches across, and were split open to get fruit inside as well as out. Warm, with milk or vanilla ice cream....

#907 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 09:23 PM:

Language is supposed to cut reality at the joints, but baking has no joints!

#908 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: June 12, 2018, 10:07 PM:

A roast is baked, and is sometimes referred to as a joint -- at least in the UK!

[Which leads to another example for Xopher:

Joint (n)
Roast (n, v)
Lampoon (v, occasionally nouned)]

#909 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 06:46 AM:

Nancy Lebovitz @ #907:

Surely a "baking joint" would be a patisserie?

#910 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 07:32 AM:

#908 ::: Tom Whitmore

It had never occurred to me that in British English, a joint could be a roast with no bones in it.

I'm guessing that the term is a result of large cuts of meat that did have bones (including a joint) in them.

#911 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 08:14 AM:

Nancy Lebovitz @ #907:

That's funny, I'm sure I've heard about people with joints getting baked...

#912 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 10:29 AM:

When it comes to British scones vs. American biscuits--I'm an American who fell in love with plain scones and clotted cream while in Britain (total love--I still have dreams about them twenty years later) and tried to make scones at home with my mother. We could approach the flavor, but not the texture.

Mom, who had fifty years of experience and whose baking-powder biscuits are ambrosial, concluded that U.S. flour has too much gluten to get that particular rich, delicate crumb.

#913 ::: Buddha Buck ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 11:24 AM:

Quill @912:

Did you try using cake flour instead of all-purpose? Cake flour is blended to contain less gluten than all-purpose, as gluten isn't all that helpful for cakes.

At the other end of the scale is bread flour, which has more gluten than all-purpose.

But your experience does lend credence to the notion that whole scones and biscuits are similar, they aren't the same.

#914 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 02:26 PM:

#912: If your biscuits or scones are tough, you're over-handling the dough. Also, it helps to make sure the butter and milk used in the scones are -COLD-, and cut in by hand, not mixer.

(Note, you can use a food processor, but pulse don't mix, and ONLY until the dough cleans the bowl.)

Also -- homemade clotted cream is great, IF you have access to a dairy that doesn't homogenize its milk.

#915 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 05:00 PM:

So, I’m in San Sebastián, but after dinner I managed to wound myself... fell off the ledge end of a ramped walkway, (only a foot or so down, but unexpected) and apparently damaged my Achilles’ tendon. Managed to limp back to the hotel, and asked them to send up ice(*), trying to keep it elevated too. Bah.

(*) phone call from the desk "she went and knocked on your door, but no one was there". "No she didn't, my door is open!”. :-P. Got it right the second time.

#916 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 05:00 PM:

So, I’m in San Sebastián, but after dinner I managed to wound myself... fell off the ledge end of a ramped walkway, (only a foot or so down, but unexpected) and apparently damaged my Achilles’ tendon. Managed to limp back to the hotel, and asked them to send up ice(*), trying to keep it elevated too. Bah.

(*) phone call from the desk "she went and knocked on your door, but no one was there". "No she didn't, my door is open!”. :-P. Got it right the second time.

#917 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 05:02 PM:

I've also not found a good translation for biscuit (US) into British English, but I haven't tried as hard.

Bannock?

The bannock Dad used to make was more of a sweet bread (but not a sweetbread), often with raisins and/or dates and/or nuts in it, but they were his own experiment and probably had nothing to do with historical bannocks.

#918 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: June 13, 2018, 07:38 PM:

David Harmon @915/16 -- if you can get an Ace bandage (or equivalent) that will help too. Taking the ice off for 15 min after leaving it on for 15 min -- also a good idea (blood coming into the area to warm it back up again brings oxygen and nutrients to encourage healing). Work on restoring range of motion before working on restoring strength. Good luck!

#919 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: June 14, 2018, 07:22 AM:

Gluten is one of the big differences between different sorts of flour and, historically, Britain has tended to have lower-gluten flours. The history has also been warped by mass baking, post-WW2, where the industrial Chorleywood process for bread depended on imported high-Gluten flour and set up a myth that UK flour was useless for bread making.

We still have that factory-bread, but something a little more traditional in thriving. Lower gluten works fine if a baker is passing attention to how the dough rises. Chorleywood depends on a very precise flour specification.

#920 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: June 14, 2018, 08:42 AM:

Buddha Buck @913: At this end of time, I don't remember, though it's certainly possible. Too, I was hooked on a particular brand (Sainsbury's...mmmmm) and it may be that other brands have different textures.

But they're nothing like the fruited or spiced scones one gets in, say, Starbucks. Those are much--tougher makes them sound unpleasant, and they're not, but they're much more like an old-fashioned muffin than a British scone.

#921 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 14, 2018, 09:18 AM:

I've been informed that most wheat-based baking (and some other dry-heat cooking) falls onto a continuous multidimensional manifold — my clear impression is that different cultures and culinary traditions have staked out different regions of that n-space, with some overlaps, but rather more near-misses.

Personal status: bummed at missing Basque cooking class, bored from icing and elevating foot in hotel room. :-(

#922 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: June 14, 2018, 10:58 AM:

I spose another analogue to American baking powder biscuits might be Irish soda bread, except that I’ve only had American versions of the latter— generally with raisins and/or caraway seed added in.

And yes, I know Ireland != UK, but it’s a sideways sorta step from Scottish bannocks.

Also, rabbithole wrt the relatively recent historical origin of soda/wheatflour oven-baked bread in Ireland vs. unleavened griddlecakes made of oats or barley.

#923 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: June 14, 2018, 12:06 PM:

Oh, and Quill? It dawned on me last night that you may need to use one of the softer Southern flour brands like White Lilly to get the right texture.

#924 ::: Mary Aileen points to old spam on a closed thread ::: (view all by) ::: June 14, 2018, 03:28 PM:

Undeleted spam here, a couple more iffy ones a little upthread from there.

#925 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 15, 2018, 08:16 AM:

So now I have a cane, a nice blue aluminum one with an arm-rest. I'm still missing the art museum trip that the rest of my family is on, but I managed to go out and have lunch at a nearby market.
At this point I’m regaining more range of motion, and can put a little more weight on a forward step, but I’m still trying to keep most of the weight on the cane for actual walking.

#926 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: June 15, 2018, 09:45 AM:

OtterB @ #902:
now I'm remembering that my mother (a Virginia girl who learned to cook from my Texan grandmother, so double-barreled Southern) used to make a batch of baking powder biscuits with sugar added in order to use them as the base for strawberry shortcake

A discussion I saw a while back, on the topic of “family recipes that turn out to be less ancient than claimed” included an anecdote about someone’s grandmother confessing on her deathbed that the secret to her famous strawberry shortcake was to drive to the next town over, buy some biscuits from the Popeye’s, and use them as the base.

#927 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: June 15, 2018, 03:47 PM:

Bisquick biscuits, with some additional sugar, make a great base for strawberry shortcake.

#928 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 16, 2018, 04:13 PM:

Well, my concerns about any schmutz my compost may have dribbled on my downstairs neighbor's patio is now thoroughly obviated.

I reconfigured the bin's cover so rain doesn't leak inside (thus overflowing the pan &c.).

Got a nice enthusiastic goose-drownder gully-warsher* come through (it says something when it's raining in both the north and south windows). My balcony is thoroughly rinsed of any "compost tea" (though I did have to tune things slightly—dang, even pea-sized hail smarts when it smacks you on the thumbnail). And when I looked down a few minutes ago (getting the back of my head soaked through), my neighbor's patio was under about an inch of water. (Can you say, "dodgey drainage"?) So I think I can class that issue as solved. For the moment, anyway.

And, of course, in the back of my mind is this voice, echoing forward from 2013, "Please don't flood. Please don't flood." I, personally, got off without any damage, but the county overall is still recovering.

* The cotton-woods are seeding, so I got treated to the sight of rain coming down at a 15° angle, while cotton-wood fluffies are sailing along, mostly sideways, but also every which-away. You could just hear the little voice-overs: "Run! Run for your little cotton-wood fluffy lives!"

#929 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: June 16, 2018, 09:07 PM:

Lori Coulson @ 914: it helps to make sure the butter and milk used in the scones are -COLD-, and cut in by hand, not mixer. I've read from a local baker that cold hands are very useful in forming scones; that never seemed to be a factor in good biscuits.

Kip W @ 917: the bannock I learned to make in Canada (easy starch/sweet while canoe tripping) was a moderately dense cake without much shortening (a key component of biscuits/scones/...). All the instances I've seen have been multi-serving (where biscuits and scones are both the size that one person might eat several of), although I don't know that to be universal. Also, the bannocks I knew could be sweet or spiced; biscuits served by themselves should be flour, shortening, liquid, and leavening.

Julie L. @ 922: see above re bannock size; I've only found soda bread in loaves. My experience (mostly with a local well-reputed Irish bakery) is that soda bread is somewhat crumbly but not too hard to slice fairly thin, where I'd expect a biscuit in a slicer to turn to crumbs despite the soda bread commonly having more open-looking texture (many tiny holes inside, where biscuits tend to pull apart in layers) -- possibly more shortening in the biscuits (again cf bannock).

Much of this is ancient recollection, and I haven't had to live off my cooking for a long time....

#930 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: June 17, 2018, 03:33 PM:

CHip:
Dad's bannock was always a work in progress. He was continually modifying his recipe (at home and on camping trips), so though it more or less matches your description of it, I think that may be almost a coincidence.

#931 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 18, 2018, 02:36 AM:

So, been in Barcelona for a couple of days now, but WiFi is iffy, over and above the annoyance of typing on an iPad. Jacque #882, I dig in fact see Sagrada Familia, it was the first tour included in this part of the trip. Amazing... greatly enjoying Spanish food throughout.

My foot is continuing to heal, as of yesterday I was able to walk without the cane, but with a limp and increased fatigue. I reverted to the cane for evening, but it's now less obvious just how to favor the foot with it, since the pain is mostly down to when I push the range-of-motion under weight. This morning, less limp, and so far the scrapes from the original fall are hurting worse. Still some visible bruising and swelling, though.

#932 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: June 18, 2018, 10:32 AM:

I have spent the past few days in various degrees of rage at Dolt45 and his Maladministration. How is the security of the United States guaranteed by separating children from their parents? By the warders of said children not even being able to soothe them?

This is raw, unrefined cruelty. It is evil. Evil, as always, backed by good, solid Christian scripture and cartloads of good, solid, chicken-fried hypocrisy.

Or, to quote Christian scripture, John 11 xxxv.

#933 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 18, 2018, 12:43 PM:

David Harmon @931: it's now less obvious just how to favor the foot

Per my old karate instructor: "Be careful how you limp; you might screw something else up."

Words to live by, in so many aspects of life....

Fragano: Indeed.

#934 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 18, 2018, 02:41 PM:

Fragano #932: The Forward points out that there's a better Biblical "precedent" for their policy: Pharoah and the Israelites, with Trump&co. as Pharoah.

Jacque #933: Already encountered the beginnings of that, as my heel started hurting from flat footed walking. I'm trying to push myself without overstraining.

#935 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: June 18, 2018, 07:06 PM:

The Merchant of Venice, Act I, scene 3, line 95:

Mark you this, Bassanio,
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart:
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!

#936 ::: P J Evans is gnomed ::: (view all by) ::: June 19, 2018, 07:41 PM:

probably due to a Word of Power, but I don't know what it is.
I have trail mix...or pumpkin-spice pancake mix, with the potential addition of dried cranberries.

#937 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: June 19, 2018, 08:43 PM:

Jacque @933: Dennis Weaver chose to limp when he played Chester on the TV version of Gunsmoke, and boy, did he have unintended consquences. Painful ones.

#938 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 20, 2018, 12:34 PM:

Kip W: Hah! Yes! I think I even remember that.

#939 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: June 20, 2018, 06:14 PM:

Jacque: I've been working my way through all 300 episodes or so of the radio Gunsmoke, which is darn good stuff, from Archive.org. Chester was played by Parley Baer there, and quite memorably. I can't get a real mental image fix on Kitty, though, so I end up substituting the TV one for her.

I first heard the show on Denver's late lamented KFML, when John Dunning had a weekly show bringing in old-time radio from his collection and talking about it with Harry Tuft. He pointed out how good the acting, scripts, and sound effects were (the last-named gave every scene additional credibility). He also played a rehearsal of an episode where the actors went way off script and cursed frequently. My favorite bit was the announcer (George Fenneman, I think), whose normal last line was that recordings of the show were sent to our soldiers overseas, but this time his final words were "Recordings of this show are sent to the troops of our enemies overseas."

#940 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: June 20, 2018, 06:16 PM:

Joel Polowin: As I like to say, "The Devil quotes Peanuts for his own purpose."

#943 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 09:54 AM:

https://www.metafilter.com/174891/War-and-Pieced#7436779

Quilts made by soldiers during the 1800s. The third link is a video which shows a lot of detail.

#944 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 11:54 AM:

I am back from Spain, as of yesterday (a 29 hour day ;-) ).

My foot is generally doing well, I'm trying to balance exercise against care, and hoping it's in good enough shape to deal with work on Monday. Fortunately, it seems to have taken the 8-hour flight as "rest". I'll also be checking in with my doctor.

#945 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 02:11 PM:

Dave Harmon @944:

IF you've got a pair of basins or buckets you can stick the injured foot/ankle in, put ice+water in one and HOT (not scalding) water in the other.

Submerge your foot first in the icy one for one minute, then the hot one for two, repeat three more times.

By the time you do the last repetition, the two will feel the same to you. This helps increase circulation to the injury, which should speed healing time.

If the area is bruised, arnica gel works wonders at reducing pain and discoloration.

#946 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 03:04 PM:

Lori Coulson #945: Hmm. So far I've just been continuing the elevate-and-ice thing, for 15 minutes at a time.

#947 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 03:24 PM:

This is what the sports medicine doctor had me do when I tore two of the three ligaments connected to my right ankle. I was amazed a how much relief it provided.

#948 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 04:37 PM:

as comment is still gnomed from a few days back - the post-surgery pathology report came back with good news.

#949 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 06:35 PM:

P J Evans (948): Glad to hear it!

Note: gnomed comments are visible by clicking on the poster's "view all by".

#950 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 10:50 PM:

P J Evans, #948: Yay! And after looking at the gnomed comment, radiation treatment is a common "belt-plus-suspenders" approach; I had it in 2015 following the lumpectomy that proved to have a malignant spot buried in it.

#951 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 23, 2018, 11:29 PM:

950
Today's mail brought me a fat envelope ($1.84 in postage) full of forms to fill out for the radiation people...with no instructions or cover letter.
First impression: I don't care what their PR people and billboards say, they've just led me to think that they don't care. (It's run by a fairly well-known specialized hospital chain.)

#952 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 24, 2018, 03:10 PM:

OT: So, maybe 20 minutes ago I was out for a smoke, it was cloudy but otherwise mild -- a lizard scurried across my doorway, startled by my motion. A couple of minutes ago, the lights started flickering. when I looked outside, I found a howling storm, complete with lightning. (Happily, I have a UPS for the 'puter.) C-ville weather... :-/

#953 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 24, 2018, 03:24 PM:

And now it's sunny....

#954 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: June 24, 2018, 07:04 PM:

LOL QOTD: "God is asleep at the wheel, and humanity's locked in the trunk." —Grey's Anatomy.

#955 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: June 25, 2018, 12:32 AM:

Dave@952 - So a thunder lizard, then...

#956 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: June 27, 2018, 04:27 AM:

Dumb question, but has the reader's packet for the Retro Hugo Awards gone out? I'm unable to find anything since May's "in preparation".

#957 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: June 27, 2018, 10:49 AM:

@956, not a dumb question; I just saw the announcement literally ten minutes ago:

http://www.worldcon76.org/entry/retrospective-hugo-award-voter-packet-released

#958 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: June 27, 2018, 11:40 AM:

956/957
A commenter at File770 says everything in it is a PDF.

#959 ::: Andrew M ::: (view all by) ::: June 27, 2018, 04:15 PM:

The Retro-Hugo packet turns out to be rather thin (not their fault, obviously, they give us what they can get). There is a post at File 770 giving guidance on where the finalists can be found free on the web - all the short fiction can be, and some of the novels. I think the packet will be most useful for the fan material.

The thing that is likely to be hardest to get is Islandia: a version of it can be found on the web, as the F770 post details, but in an incredibly cumbersome form.

#960 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: June 27, 2018, 09:54 PM:

Thanks; I just got the official mail about it an hour ago, and I'll go take a look on File770 as well.

#961 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: June 28, 2018, 09:10 AM:

Lee @ #950:

radiation treatment is a common "belt-plus-suspenders" approach

I think I once saw it referred to as “Chemo/Beam-o.”

#962 ::: Steve C. ::: (view all by) ::: June 28, 2018, 04:00 PM:

Good lord - just heard that Harlan Ellison died.

https://www.cbr.com/harlan-ellison-dies-84/

#963 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: June 28, 2018, 06:03 PM:

Pretty much everybody who met him has a Harlan Ellison story. I've got a few dozen. I really regret that I never got to visit his house. And I'll miss him.

Stories later, when I'm not quite so pained.

#964 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: June 29, 2018, 12:30 AM:

Sarah 961: In my cancer support group, surgery, chemo, and radiation were collectively called "cut, poison, and burn."

#965 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 30, 2018, 06:52 AM:

Re: Harlan Ellison: I never knew the guy, and after a certain point in my life, I found his work just too upsetting to read. But looking around at obituaries and the like:

You know, I’ve been hearing a lot of stories about how he brought a gun to a meeting, attacked various people, groped women left and right, and so on. Oddly, I’m not hearing stories about, say, the time some guy broke the hand he groped their girlfriend with, or the time he spent the night in jail for assault, or the project that got dropped cold because an exec decided he was too much trouble. Cory Doctorow tells about how he was screwing up writers at Clarion, to the point where other instructors had to fix the damage afterwards... and yet, he kept getting invited as an instructor.

I find this contrast interesting — it tells me that he clearly had a very fine sense of just who he could get away with bullying.

#966 ::: Pfusand ::: (view all by) ::: June 30, 2018, 07:38 AM:

Well, there is a biography of him available, and it is a Hugo nominee this year. You could learn Harlan's viewpoint on those things. (You do realize some of them never happened, right?)

#967 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: June 30, 2018, 01:30 PM:

David, #965: Ellison was the SF community's canonical illustration of the Known Asshole Defense -- "Oh, that's just Harlan, you know how he is."

Scalzi has a piece in the LA Times that I thought was very good. It acknowledged the good things Ellison did without shying away from the bad shit.

#968 ::: John A Arkansawyer ::: (view all by) ::: June 30, 2018, 01:59 PM:

I liked this piece about Harlan Ellison. It's mostly about what the author saw, and in regard to what he saw:

"You shouldn’t treat people the way Harlan did. But you shouldn’t always be nice, either."

The piece is more positive than that quote suggests.

#969 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: June 30, 2018, 04:28 PM:

On a brighter note, I've been reading a site called "99 percent invisible", with lots of thoughtful articles. Several of the urban-oriented articles are looking at the Netherlands, such as this one:
Unfinished Homes: DIY Condos Designed to Address Affordable Housing Shortages.

#970 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: July 01, 2018, 12:46 AM:

Some of the stories I was told about Harlan turned out later to be old Vaudeville jokes. They were told about Harlan because it was marginally believable that he would act like the butt of an old Vaudeville joke.

But as far as I know there's no Vaudeville joke about grabbing a co-presenter's boob at the Hugo ceremony.

#971 ::: Allan Beatty ::: (view all by) ::: July 01, 2018, 10:21 AM:

Abraham Lincoln and Mark Twain are quote magnets—they said some notable things, but people also attribute to them pithy remarks that they never said. Harlan Ellison is a bad-behavior-anecdote magnet.

#972 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: July 01, 2018, 10:49 AM:

Harlan did a fair amount to call that (the accretion of bad behavior stories) down on himself. Or rather, The Harlan Ellison Show did -- I personally tend to distinguish the two. I've known few people who had as clearly delineated a public/private dichotomy.

I've also noticed that chronic pain makes people impatient, and I think that Harlan was in chronic psychic pain. A lot of bad behavior of his that I observed seems to fit an impatience model; the Connie Willis event doesn't, and I'm not trying to explain or condone it.

#973 ::: John A Arkansawyer ::: (view all by) ::: July 01, 2018, 12:24 PM:

Tom Whitmore@972: The Connie Willis grope stands out as different to me from all the other stories. I can't come up with an excuse I could give with a straight face. (Headcanon yes, but that's character weakness on my part.)

#974 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 12:04 AM:

I was in the audience for that grope, and it seemed to me at the time that he was retaliating for a remark she had made earlier about The Last Dangerous Visions. Which is not an excuse, just an explanation.

#975 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 08:40 AM:

John A Arkansawyer #973: That does seem to have been his "kick the dog" moment for a lot of people, including me.

#976 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 11:40 AM:

In addition I think Harlan resented the attention that Connie Willis was getting. Connie has won more awards than other SF writer. She is right up there with Silverberg as one of our greatest speakers. And this was in Denver, where she is local. She was the queen. She was on a mind boggling number of programs. Harlan could have simply appreciated that Connie took the time to be there for him, and what that meant about his importance in the field. Instead he made us not want to ever see him again.

#977 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 12:06 PM:

I spent the weekend at ConCertino, a filk con near Boston. People have been reminiscing of Jordin Kare, and singing his songs. I don't know what chain of associations reminded me of an old joke.

-----

The sensei for three young samurai desires to test their skills. He leads them to a midden buzzing with flies.

He flicks a finger in the direction of one fly, momentarily buzzing clear of the others. "That one," he says to the first samurai.

The sword leaps from its sheath and back. The fly falls, neatly bisected. The sensei nods, and turns to the second student. Again, he points momentarily at one particular fly. "That one."

The sword moves in a blur. The fly falls, perfectly decapitated, head from thorax. The sensei nods, turns to the third student, points to a fly. "That one."

There is barely a flicker of motion. The fly continues to buzz around, moving perhaps a trifle erratically.

"Your fly is still alive," the sensei observes mildly.

"Yes, sensei," the student says. "But he will never again sire children."

-----

Female mosquitos instead of male flies, a laser instead of a sword. But that's pretty much what Jordin was trying to accomplish.

#978 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 12:29 PM:

TomB @976: Denver was in '08. '06 was in LA. Connie was the GoH. So Harlan would have been the local. But the rest of your thesis holds. Watching the video, Harlan was generally being an obstreperous child.

#979 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 12:51 PM:

David G, #974: And think about the implications of a guy "retaliating" to a comment he doesn't like by way of sexual assault. Not just the individual ones, but what it says about our society as a whole, that this would be something he'd find acceptable. It ties right in with the way that women who have opinions online routinely get rape and death threats. Right there you're looking at some of the seeds of #metoo.

#980 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 05:48 PM:

#966 Pfusand

The editor of A Lit Fuse claimed to me that that the assault on Connie Willis never occurred... what he saw and what I saw there is a disjunction involved (he was at the Hugo Ceremonies that year. I was in the audience at the Hugo Ceremonies that year. I might even had a digital video clip of it somewhere. And I was present at the bar after the Hugos, when people asked Connie Willis "Why didn't you smack him?"


She replied that she wanted to, but felt it would be disrespectful to the audience and the Hugo ceremonies to return his assault on her with one on him. Her refraining from retaliation, though, apparently led some people to the perception that the assault on her never happened.

"It hurt," she said, referring to physical pain, it was no pretend joke fake-grab that had happened.

{and then there was the petulantly-child deep-throating the microphone that he did...)

#976 TomB

That's essentially what analytically it boils down to in my perspective, petulant child temper tantrum for not being the absolute center of attention [however, as Jacque noted, it was LA, not Denver]. And the microphone swallowing, again, was petulant child seeking -more- attention behavior. He already had the audience attention...


#973 John

The big difference was that the assault on Connie Willis, there were thousands of eyewitnesses to. Other incidents, did not have that factor.

"He says she says" situations rarely are there thousands of initially disinterested observers to bear witness.

Comments have been coming out from women that his behavior was not always that of a considerate and responsible and gentle and respectful would-be sex partner.

#metoo involves "this is not isolated incident anomalous behavior, there is incident after incident after incident of systematic -pattern- "isolated" only in that the person does not do this every day of the week hours per day in front of witnesses to have the situation be undeniable and chronic and implausible for being denied."

Serial rapist-murderers, most notably a once highly regarded Canadian [since ex-...] Forces colonel in perhaps the most prominent position at the time of his downfall in the Canadian Forces for a colonel, can get away with their crimes for -decades- because of striking infrequently and in different places with substantial amounts of time between incidents that spark any sort of serious invesigation.

#981 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: July 02, 2018, 10:17 PM:

Joel Polowin: In addition to which, the device Jordin worked on also determines which mosquitoes are male and which are female.

If Mary Kay is in your social media, wish her a happy birthday (yesterday*). Last year's event was, for obvious reasons, not a good one.

(*My family's traditional birthday song, to the tune of the Flintstones' "Happy Anniversary" which is more or less the William Tell Overture:
Happy birthday yesterday!
Happy birthday yesterday!
Happy birthday yesterday!
HAP-py birthday yesterday!
Happy happy happy happy
Happy birthday yesterday!
Happy happy happy happy…
(etc)

#982 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 12:13 AM:

Paula@980: When I search on YouTube for "2006 hugo award ceremony", the first result is this one. Anyone who wants to deny should be forced to watch that – no great chore, as it's only about half a minute long. It shows Ellison crossing the line, beyond the shadow of a doubt.

#983 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 12:29 AM:

This is all reminding me to think of what people will say when I am dead (which will not be for a while; I'm young yet.) What my reputation will be. I'd much rather my name live on as that of a good editor and teacher; I'd rather have quiet things that mean I didn't screw up loudly. I also want to be much more interesting than I am, though. I suppose 'she made sure everyone got to tell their most interesting stories' would be pretty good.

#984 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 10:29 AM:

Neat! As part of the construction of the North/South Metro line in Amsterdam, a part of the river Amstel was drained, which gave archaeologists a chance to discover all the things that had been dropped in the river over the centuries. Many of the objects are fascinatingly mundane, and make for an interesting slice of life.

AKICIML:

Is there a specific name for the ice cube bin that lives in the freezer, is open on the top and the front, and can support ice cube trays stacked on top of it? More importantly, where can I buy a cheap one? My current refrigerator/freezer didn't come with one, and it's getting toward summer. (My last refrigerator/freezer was owned by the apartment complex, so the bin wasn't mine to take.)

I've searched, but mostly what comes up are ice cube trays of varying silly sizes and price points, or a cheap bin that's meant for holding ice cubes but a) has too big an opening on the top to support ice cube trays, and b) only has an opening on the top, which makes it inconvenient to reach in and grab ice cubes.

#985 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 11:34 AM:

@985, the only thing I can find that looks like you maybe could stack ice cube trays on top AND is open on the top AND the front is HERE but it looks like it's designed for soda cans, not ice, and I don't know if the dimensions are suitable for ice-cube-tray stacking.

I've never seen an ice cube bin like you describe, so I'm unclear what it looks like. Every bin I've ever seen was open on the top only, so you had to remove the stacked trays to get to the ice.

#986 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 11:43 AM:

Cassy B (985): Some ice cube bins are cut away about halfway down one narrow end. I remember that style from my childhood; it's entirely possible that they are no longer made.

Sorry, KeithS, I have no leads.

#987 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 12:18 PM:

KeithS, #984: Well, I found this. If that looks like the sort of thing you're looking for, and/or if you want one that's soft plastic instead of acrylic, try hardware stores for small-parts bins. They generally come in multi-packs, but they're cheap and I'm sure you can find uses for the others. :-)

I feel your pain, though. We have one of those old wire racks that hold 2 ice-cube trays without letting stuff get piled on top of them, and when it broke there was not one to be found anywhere; the assumption now seems to be that everyone will have the kind of refrigerator that has an ice-cube dispenser in the door. Fortunately, my partner was able to weld the break back together, so it's still in use.

#988 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 01:30 PM:

@984, here's a thought. Can you buy a regular ice-cube-bin and just cut away the front with a utility knife? They're cheap and generally fairly flimsy plastic...

#989 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 02:03 PM:

My sister's fridge has an ice-cube bin that's open on top and in front - it's for the icemaker, not for stacking trays, but it may be possible to stack trays on top.

As for the little shelf to hold trays: you can get folding freezer shelves in various sizes in some hardware stores. They're coated metal, so less breakable. I have one in my freezer, so that small stuff can be stashed underneath it.

#990 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 03:22 PM:

I have given up trying to make ice in any of our freezers -- it was proving to be, in all senses of the term, a water hazard.

Instead, I buy a bag of ready made ice at the grocery store. The height of laziness? Perhaps, but I'm not having to thaw the freezer to clean up the accidents any more.

(Yes, I am less than dexterous in some situations.)

#991 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: July 03, 2018, 03:53 PM:

I'm in a Facebook group called Not A Word, But It Should Be. Their latest entry seems worthy of wider recognition:

UNIVORE - an animal that eats only one thing, e.g. koalas which eat only eucalyptus leaves.

(There's apparently a musical group called Univore, but that's an entirely different thing.)

#992 ::: Michael I ::: (view all by) ::: July 04, 2018, 08:52 AM:

Lee@991

Personally, I'd think a univore would be an animal who only eats unicorns...

:-)

#993 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: July 04, 2018, 12:26 PM:

Michael I @992: Or a Muppet character on Sesame Street. "One! Yum! My favourite number!" <*hrum* *hrum* *hrum* *crunch* *munch*>

#994 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: July 05, 2018, 03:12 AM:

An update!

In the early days of this thread, I asked for suggestions of white animals in folklore to give me a direction to research in. I'm now happy to say that our scholarly digital edition of Clemence Housman's 1896 werewolf novel, The Were-Wolf* has been recommended by peer reviewers for publication with only a couple of minor edits, neither of which were to the bits I worked on.

As Kryten would say, I'm engaging smug mode.

If you're curious, you can find it on the Central Online Victorian Educator (COVE editions), here. We've got annotations, a timeline, and some interested parties who'll be using it in undergraduate courses in Victorian Studies or Gothic Literature in the autumn, and we're all pretty pleased with it.

Thank you again to all of those who offered up white animal suggestions! I wound up going in a tangential direction, but you contributed to a good starting point.


* Victorians sure knew how to name things. Does what it says on the tin.

#995 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: July 05, 2018, 10:57 AM:

Congratulations, Em!

#996 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: July 06, 2018, 07:44 PM:

In #977, Joel Polowin remembers our fellow Fluorospherian, the late Jordin Kare.

In #969, Dave Harmon mentions enjoying articles on the 99% Invisible site.

I wandered over there, and found that just today they've posted an article on Susan Kare, Jordin's sister, a designer famed for creating the icons on the Apple Macintosh.

As you may know, 99% Invisible is not only a Web site but also a popular podcast. With as much diffidence as I can muster-- which is an indifferent amount of diffidence-- I point out that selecting Episode 217, "Home on Lagrange," and advancing the soundtrack to about 15 minutes and 55 seconds will allow you to hear me sing the eponymous filksong. The episode is devoted to the bold idea of building cities in space.

Narrator Roman Mars:
L-Fivers were serious space activists.
But it was the Seventies.
And there was a strange convergence happening.
Of scientists, hippies, and beautiful nerds of every stripe.
Beautiful nerds.
With instruments.

#997 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: July 06, 2018, 11:44 PM:

Bill Higgins @996 -- I don't think I ever knew about Jordin's sister's claim to fame. That probably was an influence on his song "Heart of the Apple Lisa".

#998 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: July 08, 2018, 05:58 AM:

The rains have come, and the rescue operation has begun at the Tham Luang cave. Round trip time is something like 11 hours. The first group should have started back by now. All we can do is wait.

BBC News Live Reporting page

#999 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: July 08, 2018, 12:07 PM:

Four of the students have been rescued. The remaining nine people might be out in ten hours.

#1000 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: July 08, 2018, 07:38 PM:

In honour of Susan Kare, this moose would just like to say "Moof" and thank you for giving us the dogcow.

#1001 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: July 09, 2018, 02:54 AM:

The "moof" sound was created by recording "foom" and playing it backwards.

#1002 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: July 09, 2018, 01:10 PM:

Eight of the team members have now been rescued.

#1003 ::: Cadbury Moose ::: (view all by) ::: July 10, 2018, 03:18 PM:

TomB @ #1001,

Indeed.

#1004 ::: Bill Higgins-- Beam Jockey ::: (view all by) ::: July 10, 2018, 03:48 PM:

In 1002, Kip writes:

Eight of the team members have now been rescued.

Given the context of surrounding comments, it took me a moment to realize that Kip was not talking about the Macintosh development team.

(Meanwhile, in Thailand, I've read, the remaining trapped people have been evacuated from the cave.)

#1005 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: July 10, 2018, 08:27 PM:

AKICML: Free or cheap video editing software.

Here's the basic use: I'm tired of hunting online for a clip just the right length of just the right dialogue, when I have the movie (or whatever) on DVD. I want to be able to pull a brief clip from a DVD and post it online.

Is there anything that will allow me to do that that doesn't cost tens and tens of dollars? (I'm poor at the moment.)

Here's the quote in question. I'm sure you can guess why it keeps coming up in my head.

Eleanor of Aquitaine: And when you die, which is regrettable but necessary, what will happen to frail Alais and her pruny prince? You can't think Richard's going to wait for your grotesque to grow.
Henry II: You wouldn't let him do a thing like that.
Eleanor of Aquitaine: Let him? I'd push him through the nursery door.
Henry II: You're not that cruel.
Eleanor of Aquitaine: Don't fret. We'll wait until you're dead to do it.
Henry II: Eleanor, what do you want?
Eleanor of Aquitaine: Just what you want, a king for a son. You can make more, I can't. You think I want to disappear? One son is all I've got, and you can blot him out and call me cruel? For these ten years you've lived with everything I've lost, and loved another woman through it all, and I am cruel? I could peel you like a pear and God himself would call it justice!

#1006 ::: Erik Nelson ::: (view all by) ::: July 10, 2018, 10:25 PM:

991, 992 or sea urchins

#1007 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: July 11, 2018, 12:22 AM:

Xopher @1005: For starters, what OS do you want to work with?

This can be done just with the VLC viewer; just set it up to record to a file as you're playing the disc. It's been a while, but I think it's possible to specify the in- and out-points for the playback.

#1008 ::: TomB ::: (view all by) ::: July 11, 2018, 10:34 AM:

Xopher @1005: Handbrake is an open source tool for transcoding videos. You can use it to convert a DVD if the DVD is not copy protected. It has worked well for me. There are options to convert only part of the video. I have not used those options. They are available in the command line interface, and maybe also in the GUI.

#1009 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: July 11, 2018, 12:45 PM:

Once you have ripped a longer video from Handbrake (satisfied user here) or whatever, VLC will let you record a scene from it. You get to where it starts, begin recording in VLC, and stop recording at the end. I don't know how to fine-tune it, but that should get you the more-or-less exact scene you desire.

#1010 ::: J Homes ::: (view all by) ::: July 11, 2018, 05:25 PM:

Xopher @1005,

Confirming that Handbrake will do what you want, and yes the option is in the GUI. It defaults to by Chapter, but it's a drop down list, pick Seconds, and you can fill in the start and end times.

J Homes.

#1011 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: July 11, 2018, 07:27 PM:

Since VLC will play DVDs, is the Handbrake ripping necessary? I'm pretty sure that I've managed the clip extraction with just VLC.

#1012 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: July 11, 2018, 07:32 PM:

Thank you! I'll look into those.

I'm using Windows. Sorry, should have said so.

#1013 ::: Rick Owens ::: (view all by) ::: July 12, 2018, 12:44 PM:

Xopher: I've never used Handbrake, but I have used VLC to extract video and audio clips from DVDs and video files. While I run VLC on both MS-Windows and FreeBSD boxen, I've only done the extractions on FreeBSD - so far as I know the Windows executable should handle it fine, but I can't personally verify that.

#1014 ::: oldster ::: (view all by) ::: July 12, 2018, 10:10 PM:

The OP is *almost* pentameter, so I kept waiting for someone to take the hint.

But since no one has yet, and the thread's almost closed, I may as well take a run at it.

Sonnet:

you think he’s cool, then, just ‘cause he’s a dwarf?
is this a rule that you’d endorse for all?
so that if I, let’s say, should promptly morph,
I, too, would get more cooler when less tall?

Or are there other grounds on which you stan?
you follow him on Tumblr, Instagram?
you pore over his blog-posts, you’re a fan:
that’s why you think he’s cooler than I am?

I feel so jealous—I’ll admit it: bitter
There’s nothing I can do to draw your eyes.
No one will ever follow me on Twitter
And I was born the regulation size.

But acting petty won’t enlarge my part:
he’s cool, and viral, ‘cause he’s great of heart.

#1015 ::: Cassy B ::: (view all by) ::: July 13, 2018, 12:09 AM:

oldster, <applause!>

#1016 ::: marithlizard ::: (view all by) ::: July 13, 2018, 03:48 AM:

Xopher Halftongue, I've a bone to pick with you!

Telling me back then to watch Steven Universe and luring me in with your sneaky underhanded Sondheim and Utena references. Do you know what you've unleashed on this family?

I can't share because privacy, so you'll just have to imagine the pictures of 8yo niece dressed up as Peridot, posing next to a Pearl, waving the pink battle standard and grinning like a small green madwoman.

The drama. The analysis. The wait for new episodes. The 5yo with his beloved Garnet plushie. I hope you're happy with what you have wrought.

(seriously, thanks. We might not have started watching without your rec.)

#1017 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: July 13, 2018, 07:29 AM:

I eventually had to check. Both Handbrake and VLC are free, and run under Mac, Windows, and Linux.

There seems to be some serious programmer-assholery going on at the moment with Linux. It seems to be related to video formats used by YouTube and Twitter. There is a new H.264 driver required by some software under Linux, which clashes with drivers required by other software for playing the same files. On Mac and Windows, all the software uses the same driver by default. That isn't happening under Linux, and the various developers are blaming patents and saying "It's not my problem" as they distribute software without a usable driver.

Google seem to be part of the problem.

I thought I had the right libffmpeg.so library file, and then I discovered that neither Handbrake nor VLC could use it. Oddly, viewing the same files via my LAN, using the Android version of VLC on a tablet, was working fine.

Going back to the previous libffmpeg.so lets VLC see the video, and blocks the web browser I use to read Twitter.

This web browser uses the Google Chrome engine. Install Google Chrome, and it all works fine for that program, but it doesn't change anything else.

Most of the time, I like Linux, I feel far more under control. I have been using personal computers, of one sort and another, for over 40 years. But there's a difference between knowing the developers are smarter than you, and realising they don't care.

#1018 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: July 13, 2018, 08:55 AM:

Any chance Strzok's testimony yesterday is our era's McCarthy-Murrow showdown?

#1019 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: July 14, 2018, 05:38 PM:

Uhhh . . . whoaaahhh.

Go see "Sorry to Bother You."

It starts out as a workplace comedy, with some jarring dystopian elements visible in the margins, and then goes full-on gonzo subversive SF.

#1020 ::: Doug ::: (view all by) ::: July 16, 2018, 04:16 PM:

"Any chance Strzok's testimony yesterday is our era's McCarthy-Murrow showdown?"

It would be nice to think so, but no.

#1021 ::: Victoria ::: (view all by) ::: July 18, 2018, 12:48 AM:

#903 ::: Lori Coulson
#912 ::: Quill

I grew up on/making American biscuits. The rule of thumb was to keep everything cold, do it quick, and use utensils rather than fingers/hands as much as possible. The only time you actually touched the dough was 4-6 kneading motions to "get it all to stick together" and then moving the cut pieces to the baking sheet. (I later got lazy and just kneaded the dough on the sheet, cut squares and nudged the pieces apart with the knife.) The point was to not develop the gluten (btw: this is also the best way to get a great pie crust.)

When I was researching scone recipes many years ago, almost all the instructions included "rubbing the butter and flour together" and adding an egg. (The standard biscuit I grew up with had no eggs in it.) The butter may have started cold, but it warmed up during manipulation. That little bit of heat before baking makes a LOT of difference. So does the egg. It's "food glue" and keeps things together (and develop crumb) without overly activating the gluten.

#1022 ::: eliddell ::: (view all by) ::: July 18, 2018, 11:21 AM:

Dave Bell @1017: Chrome works because it bundles its own copy of ffmpeg. Along with dozens of other libs ("mozilla_security_manager" is one of the more amusing). Other software won't use that copy of the library unless you start passing odd command-line options, fiddling with the library search path, or mangling your directory structure with symlinks.

As for the patent thing, although I don't know the details of this specific dispute, that's usually a problem with your distro. The ones that have an allergy to non-free code often won't include patent-encumbered options in their pre-compiled ffmpeg binaries.

#1023 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: July 18, 2018, 11:29 PM:

Open threadiness: This headline deserves wider recognition than just its local area. (H/T to Lowering the Bar.)

#1024 ::: Quill ::: (view all by) ::: July 19, 2018, 09:14 AM:

Victoria @1021: That's good to know! I will keep it in mind for when I finally get my oven fixed.

#1025 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: July 19, 2018, 09:51 AM:

#1017 Dave

The asshattery belongs to MPAA and RIAA and MPEG-LA or whatever successor groups there might be [I've not been keeping up...]. At any moment they could jack up the licensing fees, for example. For extreme asshattery, there was the situation some years back when an apparent whackjob was flaming on various blogs of industry journalists, the journalists critical of harsh DRM and corporate patent trolls in AV tech, and signing the scrred "Steve Jobs" -- turns out, the whackjob ranter who was saying that the freeware video players and encoders and decoders were all patent-infrigning and that the patent holdser[trolls] were going to exterminate freeware software with extreme prejudice blah blah blah, really was Steve Jobs...

#1026 ::: KeithS ::: (view all by) ::: July 19, 2018, 10:07 PM:

Questionable media tie-in product: The Handmaid's Tale 2019 wall calendar.

#1027 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: July 20, 2018, 01:51 PM:

HLN: in possibly my weirdest gig, last night I added Yoko Shimomura to my composers-performed lifelist, via the Kingdom Hearts live-orchestra tour. Somehow the skullsplitting weirdness of a questish videogame that mashes characters from all over Disney (including acquisition Pixar) into an anime plot had previously escaped my notice. I think I could have passed my entire life quite happily without hearing 60's-based derivatives of "O Fortuna" juxtaposed with the Mickey Mouse Club song, but there's something to be said for weirdness as a way to keep the oughteries supple.

#1028 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: July 20, 2018, 04:30 PM:

keep the oughteries supple

::squints::

Not entirely sure what you did there, but it seems likely to be very clever. And also snarky.

#1029 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: July 20, 2018, 06:07 PM:

Leader: "It's just a step for a man..."
Crowd: "A giant leap for manki-i-i-i-ind!"
Leader: "Astronauts on your ships..."
Crowd: "Tranquility you will fi-i-ind!
But it's the rocket thru-uh-uh-ust...that really gets you to spa-a-a-a-ace!
Let's do a Moon Shot again!
Let's do a Moon Shot again!"

Happy Landing Day, everyone.

#1030 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: July 20, 2018, 06:09 PM:

TERF: 'TERF' is a slur.

Me: OK, then I'll call you an Evangelical Christian.

TERF: But...but I'm not a Christian!

Me: That's OK, neither are Evangelicals.

TERF: I'm not an Evangelical!

Me: But that's your SELF-identification. You don't believe self-identification is valid.

TERF:

Me: When you accept the principle of self-identification, I'll accept YOUR self-identification - and agree with it, because you will no longer be a TERF. Until then, I'm lumping you with Ralph Reed and James Dobson.

#1031 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: July 20, 2018, 06:57 PM:

I hear there was some excitement in the Tor neck of the woods today. Is everybody okay?

#1032 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: July 20, 2018, 11:46 PM:

Lee: It actually happened yesterday. It's a mess, but there were no serious injuries. From what I've heard, everyone at Tor is fine, just working from home for a bit until they can get back into the building.

#1033 ::: John A Arkansawyer ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 08:47 AM:

i have a bleg to make. I've long admired the thoroughness and care with which Teresa's anniversary posts on Armistice Day are made, then developed through the comments. I'm hoping to tap a bit of that for a project.

I made a small local proposal that churches from our "denomination" focus our Sunday, November 11, 2018 services on peace and the hundredth anniversary of Armistice Day. The proposal was adopted and is non-supported, in the sense that no commitment was made (or requested) for resources to support it. Gathering those resources is up to those who actively want this to happen.

I did some initial searching, thinking the hundredth anniversary of Armistice Day would be a big deal, both generally and specifically for churches and for peace organizations, and that I'd hit two or three motherlodes to pass on. This turned out not to be the case! Possibly the googforce (the f is silent) isn't with me on this. Or maybe I'm just not thinking right about how to look for this particular information.

So for all of you with an interest in religion and peace and the design of worship services, please send your thoughts.

I'll commit to amplifying what you send as I can and should.

#1034 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 10:18 AM:

Should we post such thoughts here, John (@1033) or send them to you? And if the latter, how should we send them?

#1035 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 11:49 AM:

So, it occurs to me that the person who designed the smoke-alarm low-battery alert probably didn't live in high-density housing.

The damn things peep at just the wrong interval. Frequently enough that you've just started to think about something else when they go off, but not frequently enough that you can actually find the damn things (aggravated by the pitch being really hard to localize).

They clearly didn't anticipate the possibility that a) one might not necessarily know where a given smoke detector might be and/or b) actually have access to be able to  crush it with a rock  replace the battery in a timely manner.

Last night, I rolled over to go to sleep and peep. Great, I thinks to myself. Then I noticed: I hadn't heard it until I'd rolled over so one ear was no longer buried in my pillow.

Could it be—? Naaaaa. No chance it'll work. I put a pillow over my exposed ear and—miracle of miracles, it completely masked out the smoke alarm peep. Not just a little bit; like, completely. I could still hear traffic, wind, the [redacted] neighbor's TV. But the smoke alarm peep? GONE.

Hallelujah and Glory Be. Must be a function of frequency or something. In any event, I'm ecstatic that I now actually have a defense against those thrice-cursed things....

Xopher Halftongue @1029: ::giggle::

...with a bunny-hop to the left!

#1036 ::: John A Arkansawyer ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 01:18 PM:

Tom Whitmore @ 1034: If people post here, and our hosts don't mind, I'll certainly be glad to get it that way.

Both this page and the page on which everything will eventually land have commenting enabled.

I'll harvest anything sent via that method and attribute (or not) as requested, which I guess includes publishing (or not) the comment.

One could also write me at arkansawyer, using a dotcom address for a Microsoft product which has a seven-letter name. Four of the letters are pairs of consecutive letters; the four are in backwards alphabetical order. Add three copies of one vowel, two consecutive.

I think that's obscure enough, but not so obscure as to be unfun.

#1037 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 03:52 PM:

Jacque @ 1028: Ogden Nash said something once about old age involving hardening of the oughteries. (This would have been more ear-catching in his accent (self-described as "clam chowder with a [bit] of Savannah"), in which (e.g.) "molar" and "Gorgonzola" rhymed -- and, as Wikiquotes reminds me, "important" and "oughtn't".) Unfortunately, all the Google hits are references in other people's writings; I'm not finding the original.

#1038 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 04:12 PM:

John A Arkansawyer, I'm unlikely to email you, but cannot figure out that email anyway.

#1039 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 04:38 PM:

Four vowels total; three consonants. One of the "pairs" mentioned is a consonant-vowel pair; the other "pair" is separated by a double vowel, rather than actually being adjacent to each other.

And if you google "microsoft email program" it becomes easy to figure out; I was suffering from nominal aphasia and unable to access the program name in my head, but figured out those problems after actually seeing the name.

#1040 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 08:46 PM:

I know the email program name, but the clues made me think there must be some other one because I couldn't make them apply. I know it is the done thing around here to obfuscate emails and other common spamfeeds, but this may be taking it too far.

#1041 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 09:04 PM:

Jacque #1035: There's also the point that they sound just like crickets, which occasionally wander into homes... I've had that one go both ways.

#1042 ::: John A Arkansawyer ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 09:49 PM:

Diatryma @ 1040: Then I made it too obscure, didn't I?

Let me just say it isn't hotmail. I can't go much further to look out for your interests. Unless I maybe said it like this?

Take two pairs of consecutive letters. Write those four letters in reverse alphabetical order. Then take one vowel and place it among--before, between, or after--the other letters three times, once singly and once as a pair.

No, probably not. Clever just found a new failure mode.

#1043 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: July 23, 2018, 10:43 PM:

Jacque @ #1035:

I'm pleased you found a remedy, though it occurs to me that being inaudible through a pillow is probably a design flaw in a device intended (among other things) to wake people up.

#1044 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: July 24, 2018, 01:20 AM:

Dave Harmon @1041: they sound just like crickets

Around here, it's birds, though the distinguishing features are repeat rate and total repeats.

Crickets here sound like frogs. Not "peep!" but rather "chir-chrp, chir-chrp."

Paul A.: Though perhaps it's statistically rare that people wear their pillows on top of their heads. Considering that it took me thirty-plus years to discover the hack, I'm thinking it's a minor hazard. ;-)

#1045 ::: Lenora Rose ::: (view all by) ::: July 25, 2018, 12:58 PM:

IME, the low battery beep, while exceedingly loud and obnoxious, is also still slightly *quieter* than the actual alarm. (It's also nothing like as continuous)

Jacque, here's hoping you, or whoever's job it is, soon find the smoke alarm in question.

#1046 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: July 26, 2018, 09:26 AM:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2018/07/25/verses-composed-upon-reading-a-review-from-tripadvisor/

"The Tourist Board of Xanadu
Did recently impose a fee
On those who traveled far from home
To visit Kubla’s pleasure dome
Of $20, 9 – 3"

More at the link.

#1047 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: July 26, 2018, 12:35 PM:

That's very nice, Nancy L. I wish the scansion were better, but the conceit is well and properly done.

#1048 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: July 27, 2018, 12:06 AM:

AKICIF: trying to remember a book/author, SF published mid-70s/80s. IIRC the protag is a barbarian who discovers an empty and somewhat Escherish “starflake”(?) spacecraft and activates it by voice command; the comfort level he demands for his sleeping surface is based on a stone slab covered with a few layers of leather. He goes spacefaring and collects several other companions, including a psionic girl (Aura?) whose eyes are completely black. I think the paperback cover was also all black except for a semi-abstract image of the starflake with someone standing on it sideways.

Anyone?

#1049 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: July 27, 2018, 07:37 AM:

Julie L, sounds a lot like "Space Skimmer" by David Gerrold. One review on Amazon mentions the psychic girl and the Escheresque layout, and there's a picture of a cover, elsewhere, very like what you describe. Published 1972.

#1050 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: July 27, 2018, 07:44 AM:

I've long wondered why there aren't better smoke-detector low-battery alerts. For one thing, light sensors are cheap now, it should be possible to make a cheap detector that alerts you during daylight hours before beginning its all-night beep mode.

For another, when you have multiple detectors close together (my old place had two smoke and one CO detector, and with the doors open it was hard to tell which had given a single beep while you were half-asleep...) it would be nice to be able to look at the detector and TELL if it had a low battery.

#1051 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: July 27, 2018, 09:07 AM:

Dave Bell @1049: That’s the one— thanks!!

#1052 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: July 27, 2018, 12:01 PM:

Devin @1050: A flashing LED, say..? Or a different flashing pattern than its usual "I'm active" flash.

There's a tradeoff between helping someone to identify the detector that's running down, and keeping that signal running as long as possible.

#1053 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: July 27, 2018, 06:04 PM:

LEDs are remarkably low-power these days. They probably use less power than that beep by a factor of 10 or more (that's a pulled-out-of-thin-air number, not a researched one -- if anyone wants to do the research, I'd be amused. I'm traveling and in an airport now, without a convenient way to manage my searching.)

#1054 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: July 31, 2018, 08:02 PM:

OT: A brief morale break courtesy of Jennie Breeden.

#1055 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 02, 2018, 04:59 PM:

wrt 951:
First visit with the radiation guy is on Thursday. (Apparently they couldn't figure out how to mail me when the (wrong) phone number they had didn't get me. I am Not Favorably Impressed.)
Not all of the 20 pages are fill-out-able. Some are just information. (And I have no idea what to put in as answers on some of the stuff.)

#1056 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: August 02, 2018, 05:53 PM:

ISTR discussion here some time ago about an experiment with basic (guaranteed) income; I forget whether it was Finland's trial or Ontario's. Surprising nobody, Ontario's "centre-right" governor has shut down their experiment.

#1057 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: August 02, 2018, 07:59 PM:

The linked article also has a brief note on Finland's trial: "Finland launched a two-year trial in January 2017 and recently announced it would not expand or extend the project."

#1058 ::: Em ::: (view all by) ::: August 06, 2018, 12:52 PM:

Worldcon approacheth!

The program has been finalized, and I'm on it for the first time, which is exciting. 10AM on Saturday, I'm giving a paper on the Academic Track called "Lady Dings the Prudes" about asexuality and celibacy in Spider Robinson's works.

Mostly I just really wanted to use the title pun, but hopefully it's entertaining. I have this irrational fear that I'll be giving it to an empty room, so here's an official invitation in case you've got nothing else that looks appealing on Saturday morning.

I'm also going to be running at least one D&D game for beginners, if that's something you've always wanted to try and haven't, and another for more experienced players (at which new players will still be welcome, it's just less geared towards being an introductory adventure).

Who else is going? Who's got programming they're psyched about?

#1059 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: August 06, 2018, 01:28 PM:

I'm excited about getting to interview Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, one of the GoHs. I've probably known her longer than anyone else who'll be at the convention (we met in the mid-1960s, and she got me into fandom), so there's going to be a lot of interesting historical talk. And the fellow who's been making trading cards of SF personalities is going to release a bunch with Worldcon chairs, including me. He turns out to be the son of old-time fan Bradford Day, who did a checklist of the SF magazines through about 1960 (a very useful little booklet for magazine collectors!). I expect "The Scurrilous History of Conventions" will also be a lot of fun -- a batch of amusing fanhistorians including Joe Siclari, me, and George R. R. Martin talk about odd stuff at cons. And I have a kaffeeklatch on Monday. Other stuff too.

#1060 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 06, 2018, 05:47 PM:

I wish I could go to WC. :-( I don't know if we'll get many more opportunities to see Spider out in the wild. :-( :-(

#1061 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: August 06, 2018, 09:10 PM:

OT from Twitter:

Jimmy Rothschild @Pale_0ntologist
if i was new and you told me that theres a superhero who's blind and uses echolocation to fight and one who's an adrenaline junkie who flies around using gadgets and that one is called batman and one is called daredevil i would punch you in the face if i found out which was which

Another commenter pointed to this comment pointing out that it's actually Iron Man who has a closer character arc to Batman.

#1062 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: August 06, 2018, 09:52 PM:

Dave Harmon: LOL! Although Daredevil's power is always called a "radar sense" rather than echolocation.

#1063 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 09:25 AM:

Dave Harmon @ #1061:

Michael Chabon, in his book on the history of comics, notes that pretty much no superhero has a unique power set -- if it hadn't been done before, it's sure to have been copied after -- and posits that what makes a superhero memorable and lasting isn't what he does, but why he does it.

By that metric, Batman and Iron Man are completely different characters, whatever similarities you might find in their methods, because their motivations are completely different.

(He also notes that while it's understandable from an out-of-universe marketing perspective, it doesn't make a lot of sense in-universe for superheroes to be named after the source of their power. If you had superpowers that lasted for an hour at a time, you wouldn't actually go around calling yourself Hourman, because that's advertising your weakness to your enemies. The same would arguably apply to a blind superhero calling himself Batman.)

#1064 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 09:46 AM:

Asking in the hope that somebody here might know (yes, due precautions have been observed), since search thus far has been unhelpful and frustrating.

I'm trying to identify an airborne smell -- the closest description I have is that it's like the exhaust of a badly tuned car in an enclosed space/partial combustion/side of highway, tastes somewhat similar (can make the tongue feel numb if it's really strong), leaves a burning sensation in the back of the throat/sinuses (irritation, not flame), and makes the eyes sore/dry/itchy.

There's no carbon monoxide registered on a detector. It's not natural gas (per odorizer and gas company check). It's not a simple aromatic hydrocarbon, paint(s/finish) [unless they're something different from common latex, oil, poly-, yada]. It doesn't smell like formaldehyde (at least not the sort you use for lab work). A cheap combustible gas detector isn't enlightening.

Since it's occurred at different times over the last 3 years, it probably isn't associated with a one-time installation.

Suggestions on directions to head in, or "Oh, it's that" would be much appreciated!

#1065 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 09:46 AM:

Asking in the hope that somebody here might know (yes, due precautions have been observed), since search thus far has been unhelpful and frustrating.

I'm trying to identify an airborne smell -- the closest description I have is that it's like the exhaust of a badly tuned car in an enclosed space/partial combustion/side of highway, tastes somewhat similar (can make the tongue feel numb if it's really strong), leaves a burning sensation in the back of the throat/sinuses (irritation, not flame), and makes the eyes sore/dry/itchy.

There's no carbon monoxide registered on a detector. It's not natural gas (per odorizer and gas company check). It's not a simple aromatic hydrocarbon, paint(s/finish) [unless they're something different from common latex, oil, poly-, yada]. It doesn't smell like formaldehyde (at least not the sort you use for lab work). A cheap combustible gas detector isn't enlightening.

Since it's occurred at different times over the last 3 years, it probably isn't associated with a one-time installation.

Suggestions on directions to head in, or "Oh, it's that" would be much appreciated!

#1066 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 10:19 AM:

1064
My first thought is "oxides of nitrogen". (There are a couple of them that could do that.)

#1067 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 10:34 AM:

Yipes... New York magazine has "gone there", laying out a case for things being much worse than we thought: What if Trump has been a Russian asset since 1987? A couple of key passages:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987... Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection.

and

But the other leverage Russia enjoyed over Trump for at least 15 years is indisputable — in fact, his family has admitted to it multiple times. After a series of financial reversals and his brazen abuse of bankruptcy laws, Trump found it impossible to borrow from American banks and grew heavily reliant on unconventional sources of capital. Russian cash proved his salvation. From 2003 to 2017, people from the former USSR made 86 all-cash purchases — a red flag of potential money laundering — of Trump properties, totaling $109 million. In 2010, the private-wealth division of Deutsche Bank also loaned him hundreds of millions of dollars during the same period it was laundering billions in Russian money. “Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets,” said Donald Jr. in 2008. “We don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia,” boasted Eric Trump in 2014.

#1068 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 10:37 AM:

Xeger, sympathies; that sounds very unpleasant.

Is this in a car? A home? An apartment?

How often do you smell it? How long does it last? Is it associated with a particular time of day or time of year? If it's in the house, is it in the whole house or concentrated in one area?

Do you ever smell it outside? (My then-boyfriend-now-husband once lived downwind from, depending on the wind direction, either a corn processing plant (smelled vaguely like skunked beer) or an asphalt plant (smelled strongly like hydrocarbons and tar). But the fact it was an external source was obvious.

Narrowing down the circumstances might help us figure out possible causes.

#1069 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 02:36 PM:

P J Evans @ 1066:
My first thought is "oxides of nitrogen". (There are a couple of them that could do that.)

Huh. I hadn't even run in to those (in this context). Thank you!

Cassy B. @ 1068:
Xeger, sympathies; that sounds very unpleasant.

Thanks!

Is this in a car? A home? An apartment?

House.

How often do you smell it? How long does it last? Is it associated with a particular time of day or time of year? If it's in the house, is it in the whole house or concentrated in one area?

1 or 2 times a year, for 1-3 weeks, usually (but not always) strongest in the evening. It's showed up in May, June, August, November. The smell seems to be concentrated in the center of the main floor (can't be smelled in the basement, though -- and isn't anywhere near the furnace/water heater/etc), with occasional tendrils up to the second floor.

Do you ever smell it outside? (My then-boyfriend-now-husband once lived downwind from, depending on the wind direction, either a corn processing plant (smelled vaguely like skunked beer) or an asphalt plant (smelled strongly like hydrocarbons and tar). But the fact it was an external source was obvious.

I've never smelled it outside, but have definitely tried to track it down outside.

#1070 ::: Clifton ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 05:14 PM:

P J Evans:
I did radiation some 20 years ago (has it really been that long?!) as follow-up for the surgery for my testicular cancer. (The goal is generally to kill any cancer cells which have escaped in small numbers and could seed a new tumor.)

The effects are cumulative in my experience. For the first week or so I was feeling "Oh, this is nothing." By the end of the cycle (5 or 6 weeks, I think?) it was "I am so exhausted and confused, I feel like I'm 100." and then it took about the same number of weeks to wear off. (If they have medical MJ where you live, and if you can tolerate it, you might find that helpful for the nausea and appetite suppression.) It's still better than chemo by all accounts.

If you have other questions about the experience, I'm happy to answer.

#1071 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 06:15 PM:

1070
I'll find out what I'm in for on Thursday. Since they've done the chemo - and even with targeted treatments, it does get to you - and the surgery, I'm really ambivalent. (Chemo was six sessions, three weeks apart. It wasn't bad until the last month, when the side-effect of low blood pressure really hit.)
They sure sent enough paper, though.

#1072 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 07:10 PM:

1070/1071: How tired radiation therapy makes one varies a lot. When I had it in 2016, it didn't make me tired--beyond the tiredness having to drag myself to the hospital for the treatment every weekday for almost two months, that is. But it did ultimately give me a very bad burn.

They had warned me that it might, but the phrasing made it sound like a bad sunburn. And my reference for "bad sunburn" was "bright red, sore, and peeling". This was much worse than that (apparently sunburn can also be this bad; I had no idea).

#1073 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 07:36 PM:

1072
Back in the late 80s, one of the guys I worked with fell asleep in the sun. He got a really bad sunburn, and had to take a couple of days off: swelling is what I remember.

I'm currently experiencing itchy peeling skin as all the hair follicles wake up and start making hair again. It is - not fun. Especially when it wakes me up at oh-dark-hundred. (That's another of the things they never mentioned.)

#1074 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 08:51 PM:

(1073) The nurse who put the dressing on my burn after I finished treatment told me about her sister going to the Caribbean on honeymoon and winding up with sun poisoning. I'd never heard of sun poisoning until then.

#1075 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 09:14 PM:

1074
Why they have sunscreens that are like SPF50, for places like Cancun. I don't sunburn easily (not being as blond as I look), but I do burn after an hour or so.

#1076 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 09:38 PM:

P J Evans #1073: Probably not applicable to you, but my dad found that when the hair grew back, he wound up with more than he'd had before treatment! (He had male-pattern baldness.)

#1077 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 10:19 PM:

It's certainly dense on my head, but I can't swear that it's denser than it was a year ago, before all the treatments. (It never did go completely away.)

#1078 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 10:22 PM:

For him, the thing was that his hairline advanced (instead of retreating) and his bald spot shrank -- that is, the MPB got kicked back a few years's worth.

#1079 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 11:32 PM:

1072
The site for breastcancer.org uses the "like a sunburn" line. I wonder what their idea of a sunburn is.
(I'm about this >|

#1080 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 07, 2018, 11:33 PM:

1072
The site for breastcancer.org uses the "like a sunburn" line. I wonder what their idea of a sunburn is.
(I'm about this >|< far from noping out of radiation. I can't even finish the effing forms without talking to their doctor, and I'm sure they want the forms signed first.)

Reposted because I effed up the HTML....

#1081 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 10:38 AM:

P J Evans, no advice or anecdotes here, but ample good wishes in your direction.

#1082 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 12:28 PM:

xeger @1064: The burning throat itchy eyes suggests some allergen, i.e., organic?

Do you have a reference for overheated electronics?

Are you in a single-family home, or a shared living structure?

Your description of the location suggests it has a point source?

Over the last few years, I've been randomly smelling what for all the world smells like rubber cement. I finally figured out that it seems to be vaping fluid, which—ew? 'Course, this does come from folks who will also voluntarily take cigarette emissions into their respiratory system, so ::shrug:: It's less bad than second-hand smoke, but it's still vile.

Dave Harmon @1067: For time machine owners, forget killing Hitler (besides, I think a more effective approach would have been to have gotten him admitted to art school), how do we take Putin out of circulation? (Of course, this leaves aside the "time to railroad" problem; would somebody else simply have arisen to take that place?)

Cassy B. @1068: We actually get a handy warning of an upsloping weather system by the hint of coal smoke from the power plant in the air. (Which is a vast improvement; the old marker was eau de chicken farm.)

And then there was the period when I was working across the street from Celestial Seasonings.

#1083 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 12:35 PM:

Jacque, for some years a nut roasting company was close to the office where I worked. I used to get so very, very hungry....

And there's an area of Chicago that used to smell strongly of chocolate from the Blommer Chocolate Factory; I've heard (not verified) that the smell has diminished or vanished because they were required to update their emission control systems.

#1084 ::: Lori Coulson ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 12:38 PM:

P J Evans @1080:

"Bad Sunburn" -- for me looked like a RARE steak, and hurt like Hell. Applying cooled black tea to the area reduced the pain, but as it was the back of my legs and buttocks, sitting was...interesting for a while.

#1085 ::: Your Name Here ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 12:57 PM:

And there's an area of Chicago that used to smell strongly of chocolate from the Blommer Chocolate Factory; I've heard (not verified) that the smell has diminished or vanished because they were required to update their emission control systems.

I was over in that area a couple of weeks ago and you could smell the chocolate a block away. I don't know how that compares to previous years though.

#1086 ::: CHip ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 02:34 PM:

Jacque -- there were a couple of years several decades ago when Balticon was right downtown and the McCormick spice packaging plant was still running. I couldn't smell the harbor at all, just the cinnamon/pepper/... vapors coming out of the factory. (I recall a cookbook from that period mentioning a visitor to the plant commenting on the wonderful smell and being told "sadly" "Yes, that's mostly our cinnamon evanescing.")

(later) I don't think eliminating Putin would lead to a railroad issue; he seems even more paranoid than past leaders (unsurprising given his security background) and uniquely skilled at raising outright enthusiasm from the people he's conning with MRGA posturing.

#1087 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 02:59 PM:

Cassy B. @1083: I've heard that one way the Disney parks enhance sales at their snack kiosks is by piping pizza smells through the park's ventilation system. People buy and eat snacks, but still feel hungry, so they buy more.

Barbara Sher actually came up an interesting Life Insight from that: "You can never get enough of what you don't actually want."

#1088 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 03:07 PM:

My husband has a photo studio in a revamped hundred-year-old spice factory in Chicago. On hot humid days, you can still smell the spices where the grinding and packaging machines stood for so long; they permeated the pores of the wood and plaster. I have a relatively poor sense of smell, but even I can smell the cinnamon and the nutmeg in certain hallways.

Bear in mind that the building hasn't been a spice factory for at least 20 years or more....

#1089 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 03:41 PM:

1082
The job I had in the late 80s was downwind of the La Victoria salsa plant. Some days it smelled like tomatoes, others like chilis (cleared sinuses well), and some days it just smelled delicious.

#1090 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 03:45 PM:

and 1088
I'll believe that the odors of cinnamon and nutmeg are still there. I have some whole nutmegs that belonged to my grandmother, who died in 1981 and hadn't cooked for several years before that, and, as they're in a glass jar, they're still good. (I have some much younger whole nutmegs - they're in my freezer.)

#1091 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 05:49 PM:

I still have books that smell like the fire in my parents' house in 1968 (it wasn't my fault -- I was in Russia at the time). Smells can linger longer than you think.

#1092 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 06:44 PM:

My bout with radiation therapy wasn't too bad. Yes, I was tired all the time, and I had to buy a couple of bras with seamless cups because the seams in the ones I'd been wearing hurt, as did going braless under clothes. (Upside: I discovered that I really liked the seamless cups and am still wearing that style!) They gave me some high-powered burn-treatment paste, but I didn't use it much because it was really, really sticky; when I got instead was aloe gel and OTC burn lotion. OTOH, I only had a 4-week course, so if they're talking about a longer one for you, take that into account.

Some potentially good news on my front: the doctor wants to do another CT scan after the current round of chemo. The results from that will determine whether I have to do another chemo round or can move on to radiation. Surgery has not been an option for me with this because of the location of the tumor. Radiation will also be more Interesting this time around, because I'm sure part of the affected area will be underneath the waistband of my underwear, and NOT looking forward to that.

#1093 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 07:50 PM:

P J Evans @1089: cleared sinuses well

Anybody here ever do the Celestial Seasonings tour? I'm told the Peppermint Room is An Experience.

#1094 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 07:58 PM:

Lee (1092): You're almost certainly correct about a longer course of radiation being worse. Mine was 7+ weeks (36 sessions, 5 days a week, skipping a couple of holidays); the burn didn't really start until at least the 5th week and didn't get bad until the last week or so.

P.J.: It doesn't have to be bad at all. My friend that was treated for breast cancer last year had very little trouble with the radiation. (Her chemo was easier than mine, too, but mine had surprised the doctor with how bad it was.)

#1095 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 08, 2018, 08:31 PM:

1094
So far, the side-effects I've been getting (outside of the expected hair loss) aren't the ones that everyone else says are common. It makes life really interesting, for values of interesting that you don't want to deal with.

#1096 ::: Nancy Lebovitz ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 10:00 AM:

One of my friends had a minute to get out of his burning house.

https://www.facebook.com/kinto.cero/posts/1480783948734957

"I'd never been in a burning building before, but regularly ran the scenario through my head: your house is on fire. You have 1 minute. What do you take? And the answer was always pretty much the same: cat, wallet, keys, phone, laptop, hard drives, laptop charger, journals. Except I never though of the additional complication of...and you're in total darkness. Or your smartphone likes to die early & often. Going forward, I'd definitely make sure flashlights & fire extinguishers are easily accessible in every area of the house. Last night would have went better if I had an emergency smartphone charger stashed in my car, or could find my laptop bag containing a smartphone cable before evacuating. I was disoriented & panicking but consider myself lucky it affected me so much less than the others."

It's possible that the go bag advice should be updated to include more about electronics.

#1097 ::: Kip W ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 12:25 PM:

I still think about the Celestial Seasonings ads KFML used to run, back when it was a local company, with Dusty Drapes: "There's eleven of em—One for each day of the week."

Jon Singer once told me that he was walking around somewhere in Pennsylvania going "Where am I?" when he noticed that the streetlamps were shaped like chocolate kisses and realized he was in Hershey. He said he walked under a brown cloud from a factory and came out with little brown specks that tasted like a Hershey bar.

Made me wonder when we'd see lawsuits over Chocolate Lung.

#1098 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 03:55 PM:

AKICIML question (asking for a friend):

What's the going rate for editing 178 pages of a doctoral dissertation written by an ESL person with some deficiencies in their English? My friend asks because they've done this one (not this particular one, but a member of the same category -- academic works written by ESL people) before and wonder if they charged too little for what was a near rewrite of the whole thing.

Also, given my, ahem, friend's experience, what's the minimum rate above which the editor will cease contemplating suicide and start contemplating groceries?


Email above.

#1099 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 04:00 PM:

Jon Singer #1097

How to gain weight by outdoor exercise?

#1100 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 06:10 PM:

I'm back from that medical adventure.
They propose 4 weeks of radiation, 5 days a week. That's apparently the current going method for my situation. Also I should expect side effects to hit after the second week. (Which means I want the second week to be the one with the drug infusion: I need to be mobile and functional that week.)

The radiation people had a cocker spaniel there this morning, named Stella. Friendly.

#1101 ::: Jenny Islander ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 07:56 PM:

@ P J Evans no. 1100: Have you done this dance before? My sister-in-law told me that getting good food while she was doing her radiation treatments was of literally vital importance. She used cannabis to quell her nausea so that she could eat at all, and made herself put away a bite of something at any moment during which it seemed possible. They were actually suggesting Plumpy'nut, which is a special shake used to fatten up juvenile famine survivors, except that she's allergic to most of the ingredients.

But I should stop before I descend into hlepiness.

I actually came here to note that I have just learned that I have with my own eyes seen a city that is gone. Literally, it's gone. When I was a teenager, I sold a whackton of raffle tickets (and the adults got some fantastic deals) in order to finance a class trip to Hong Kong. We passed within a stone's throw of the upper floors of Kowloon Walled City--I want to say that we were on an elevated railway? or was it a hilltop road? or, heck, in a plane?--and visited a covered market not far outside it. I regarded the place with horror at the time, but later grew to admire the scrappy community spirit of people who managed to live together in apartments of 250 square feet each.

And less than a decade afterward, the whole thing was demolished in order to build a park.

#1102 ::: HelenS ::: (view all by) ::: August 09, 2018, 08:10 PM:

My mother was given too high a dose of radiation and ended up with a fairly severe burn. (This was many years ago and she had terminal lung cancer -- they were just trying to buy her time, which made it that much worse that they actually gave her more pain than she needed to have.)

#1103 ::: odaiwai ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 03:02 AM:

Jenny Islander @ 1101

We passed within a stone's throw of the upper floors of Kowloon Walled City--I want to say that we were on an elevated railway? or was it a hilltop road? or, heck, in a plane?

Maybe you saw it from the top deck of a double decker bus? It's pretty flat around there (it's very close to the old airport site), and the railway there in the 1980s/1990s was all underground.

You could have seen it from the airplane too, as you would have come in and out of Kai Tak airport back then, and the walled city was pretty close to the crazy approach path: once the plane straightened up from the crazy bank to the right to line up for the runway, the walled city would have been just on the left.

#1104 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 09:14 AM:

I haven't been out of the US, but I read of the Walled City in a travel guide I had picked up when I was bored. The authors used such overwrought wordage in describing the dangers and darkness that my doubt mechanism kicked in even as I was morbidly fascinated. Years later I ran onto a story, "Inside the Walled City", by Garry Kilworth in which, facing demolition, the rather abstract [just the way I like 'em] genius loci of the place killed several reporters investigating it after it had been evacuated.
I agree with Jenny Islander's final assessment, despite my loathing of organized crime. There is a book out called "City of Darkness", with lots of pictures of it as it was.
You very well might have seen it from a plane, as they passed very low, but the hilltop road is a good candidate too. A bus would not have been close to its upper levels.

#1105 ::: odaiwai ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 10:51 AM:

Angiportus Librarysaver, now that you remind me, maybe there would have been some overlooking roads on the northern side of the Walled City around the Kowloon Tong/Lok Fu area - the walled city predates my Hong Kong residence by a small number of years, and it would have been a park when I moved here.

The "City of Darkness" book is here: https://smile.amazon.com/City-Darkness-Life-Kowloon-Walled/dp/1873200137/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g1405964225?_encoding=UTF8&%2AVersion%2A=1&%2Aentries%2A=0&ie=UTF8

Here's some pics of the approach and the crazy turn:
Checkerboard Hill and the crazy Kai Tak airport Approach:

Upon reaching a small hill marked with a huge “aviation orange” and white checkerboard, used as a visual reference point on the final approach (in addition to the middle marker on the Instrument Guidance System), the pilot needed to make a 47° visual right turn to line up with the runway and complete the final leg. The aircraft would be just two nautical miles (3.7km) from touchdown, at a height of less than 1,000 feet (300 m) when the turn was made. Typically the plane would enter the final right turn at a height of about 650 feet (200 m) and exit it at a height of 140 feet (43 m) to line up with the runway.

I used to go up to the checkerboard when I first arrived in Hong Kong in the 1990's to watch the planes coming in on a Saturday morning - it was a common place for plane spotters and photographers to lurk.

Back in those days, you could also get up on the roofs of the buildings in Kowloon City and watch the 747s pass overhead about 50m above your head, as they were lining up land. A 747 about 20m above your head in flight is like whale watching: how is something that big so graceful?

#1106 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 12:00 PM:

The tenth of August is an insignificant day. A day like any other. I want to take note, though, that on this date in 1840, the King of Mosquitia abolished slavery.

#1107 ::: Diatryma ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 01:42 PM:

I've heard a couple things about Kowloon, basically divided by whether it's called the Walled City of Kowloon or just Kowloon. Either it's a strange and magnificent place of shadows and perserverance, or it's sort of a suburb. A friend of mine is pretty sure she's been there while visiting family in Hong Kong, but only 'pretty sure' because of the former reputation.

#1108 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 09:35 PM:

Fragano: Clearly there were those for whom that would have been a magnificent day.

#1109 ::: Jenny Islander ::: (view all by) ::: August 10, 2018, 10:31 PM:

I think I did see Kowloon out of the window of a plane. I was just so punchy at that point (Kodiak to Anchorage to Seattle to Tokyo to Hong Kong will do that) that I lost the context of the memory.

I gather that, while there was a problem with illegal activity flourishing in the Walled City for some time, the issue was (of course) no cops, not the people all being eeevilll. Also crime went down a lot in the later years of the settlement, and people developed civic pride.

But of course the "wretched hive of scum and villainy" narrative was more convenient in the run-up to demolition.

#1110 ::: Devin ::: (view all by) ::: August 11, 2018, 01:49 AM:

"Kowloon" is a larger area of Hong Kong, I believe. The Walled City was located there. See also: Flatiron Building/Flatiron District (though in this case I think the neighborhood gave its name to the Walled City, whereas the District's named after the Building).

#1111 ::: Sarah E. ::: (view all by) ::: August 11, 2018, 08:35 PM:

I think I was by the Walled City when my family visited Hong Kong in 1987, though my memories of Macau are more vivid. My parents may have some snapshots.

#1112 ::: Terry Hunt ::: (view all by) ::: August 11, 2018, 10:56 PM:

As Devin suggests, Kowloon is (or was) the whole of the urban area on the mainland side of Hong Kong Harbour. My parents and I actually lived in a flat in Kowloon for a few weeks when my father was posted to Hong Kong, before moving in to our longer-term flat at Stanley Fort on Hong Kong Island, aka Victoria. (This was in 1963: I was seven years old at the time.)

The Walled City was not something I ever heard about during our two-year sojourn, which was meant to be the standard three-year British Army posting, but my father was asked to re-locate to Singapore for the last year.

#1113 ::: Terry Hunt ::: (view all by) ::: August 12, 2018, 04:00 PM:

Re my 1112 above: I must publish a correction. On consulting my parents while visiting them earlier today I learned that, not only did we live quite near the Walled City in Kowloon, but that I (accompanied of course by them) have actually been in it!

I have only disconnected flashes of memory from this period, being so young, and none at all of the visit in question. My parents have a photograph taken within the Walled City, but couldn't find it today – they checked the relevant accessible photo album but didn't find it, apparently it caught my mother mostly from behind, so would have been put loose in a box now stored away rather than displayed in the album.

According to my parents, at the time (early 1960's), the Walled City's inhabitants avoided having their pictures taken for fear of losing thier souls. I speculated that it might really have been to avoid possible identification to the authorities, but they're sure that the belief was genuine, and that they also believed every person was constantly followed by a ghost.

#1114 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 10:33 AM:

HLN--well maybe not so local: Area retiree finds that we are having one of *those* again.
The sky is a featureless whitegray, and an amazing pinkgold orb edges out of Renton Hill but brings little heat [sigh of relief in here.] Last eve it was sunny yet hazy, the colors muted, the shadows pale. That's right, wildfires again. Last summer I found ashes on my bike when I parked it outside.
This didn't used to be a standard feature of summer. I know, I've been in Pugetropolis 40 years. Can't help but wonder now what it will eventually do to my lungs.

#1115 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 10:35 AM:

Angiportus: "Smoke" now appears to be a standard, unremarked portion of the morning weather report.

#1116 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 11:49 AM:

Adventures in medicine, part whatever-the-heck:
This afternoon is the simulation run for radiation therapy.

#1117 ::: Cassy B. ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 12:18 PM:

@Angiportus Librarysaver & @Jacque, please ignore if hlepy, but... are you wearing dust-masks or respirators outside? Because, honestly, I'd be worried about inhaling smoke from ghod-only-knows-what; it might be mostly trees, but there may also be a lot of chemicals from houses, cars, industrial plants...

If it's thick enough to "snow" on you, and if smoke is now a normal part of the weather report... it's probably worth the expense and hassle of a mask.

#1118 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 12:38 PM:

I'm wondering how Praisegod Barebones and family are dealing with sudden currency collapse and inflation. I recall those particular processes myself, from four and a half decades ago in Jamaica, and they are a whole lot of no fun.

#1119 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 01:03 PM:

P J Evans (1116): Best of luck! This is probably the bit where you go through various weird contortions while they figure out the best angle for the targeted radiation. I got a pair of tiny pinprick tattoos for them to aim at, as well.

#1120 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 01:13 PM:

1119
The radiation thing is a donut, like the CT and PET scanners, so I'm probably not going to get contorted. Much. (I was told they radiate the whole boob, so I really don't know what they're going to be doing.)

#1121 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 01:27 PM:

Cassy B.: So far (knock on wood) the big smoke sources (so far) are several (western) states away, so I'm disinclined to worry about it.

I would like the fossil fuel industry to fall into a big hole, though.

#1122 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 01:34 PM:

Jacque #1108:

Oh, yes indeed.

#1123 ::: Joel Polowin ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 01:40 PM:

P J Evans @1120: My understanding is that there will be multiple beams from differing angles, all converging on the spaces that need to be killed. Everything along any single beam path gets a nasty but not-lethal burn, but the spaces that multiple beams go through receive a lethal radiation dose.

I hope that things go well.

#1124 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 01:50 PM:

P J Evans: Best of luck! My mother and aunt have both been through this and recovered, but it wasn't fun in either case.

#1125 ::: Angiportus Librarysaver ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 02:56 PM:

Have tried wearing those masks but they never quite fit me, and fog up my glasses as well. I might look around to see if there's other kinds.
Best of luck to PJ Evans and all facing medical "adventures".

#1126 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 03:12 PM:

Angiportus (1125): A friend of mine was highly recommending the Vog mask last winter; apparently it didn't make her glasses fog up. Not sure how good it is against dust; she was using it to keep the bitter cold from bothering her asthma.

#1127 ::: Syd ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 03:48 PM:

Re: masks for smoky/dusty conditions, I know several people who use Vog masks at Burning Man and report they work well on even the windiest and dustiest days. I've poked around the product listings on the Big South American River pages and Vogs appear to be sold according to the weight of the user, but I don't know the reason beyond, possibly, basic fit for the mask.

Also, HI! I check in here often but don't post much (obviously). I'm back to thinking I don't have anything interesting to share with the Fluorosphere. Which in some ways is a very large improvement over 6-8 years ago when I had all too much to share...

Still at the same job; had to say goodbye to my kitty Garbo a couple of months ago, but Minerva, Houdini and Poppet are still going strong; and I leave for Burning Man next week to help build my camp.

Life is better than it was then. May it be (and/or become) so for all of us.

#1128 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 04:40 PM:

Good to see you, Syd, and glad to hear there's nothing major to report. And glad things are going better for you.

#1129 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 06:13 PM:

Would there be somebody out there that's heading to worldcon who'd be able to print out and deliver a site selection vote? Should just be "print, hand in".

#1130 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: August 14, 2018, 08:14 PM:

Home again, after a moderately interesting half-hour as, basically, a model for them to adjust. At least there's some cushioning, unlike the PET scanner. Apparently they tag the one adjustable one with the patient's name, so it can be used every time. Also photos, so they know what kind of position (slightly over to one side). And the little teeny dots that are the tattoos - they're barely noticeable, from my viewpoint, and near the lower edge of the ribcage.

#1131 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: August 15, 2018, 02:58 AM:

Is it time for a new Open Thread?

#1132 ::: Dave Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: August 15, 2018, 08:00 AM:

PJ Evans #1130: Tattoo.

#1133 ::: Stefan Jones ::: (view all by) ::: August 15, 2018, 10:19 AM:

Washington's forest fires are sending smoke down to the Portland area as well.

It isn't nearly as bad as last year, when there was