Wow. I've been reading this topic over the last few days and I'm impressed. There's too much good stuff here for me to respond to all of it, so just a few things.
Mycroft, Xopher, Lee, et al: I'm with you in hating humilation humor. When other people laugh at some poor loser on TV falling on his face, all I feel is this hollow clench in my chest, knowing what that guy must be feeling. It's bad enough when I know it's just an actor, and truly painful when it's a real person. I can't even watch parts of the Daily Show when the so-called reporters interview people and sandbag them with insane questions.*
This stems both from being bullied and from severe self-consciousness as a child (which of course made me that much more tempting a target.) I won't go into the gory details here, other than to say I considered it only moderate bullying at the time because I was only being pushed around and mocked while others were having their heads stuck in toilets.
Unfortunately, I was far too well trained in the "ignore them and they'll go away" school of bully coping at far too young an age. That only worked a few times, and more often made it worse. Then one day in eighth grade, my friends and I realized there was this one sixth-grader on the bus who we could pick on. At some level I knew it was wrong, but after a day of being humiliated, it just felt too good to be on the dishing-out side for a change.
Reading this thread now I find myself wondering whether it would have been better to retaliate against the bullies and maybe stop them, instead of burying my feelings and internalizing them and finally taking them out on an innocent. Of course, hindsight, 20-20, etc. Realistically, it would have been next to impossible for me then. I still feel ashamed that I wasn't strong enough to break the cycle, though.
Anyway, my point is that while training children in self-defense might make them more likely to bully in turn, training them not to actively defend themselves will not remove that particular danger, and will make things worse in other ways.
Leah @258: my default assumption in any social situation is that I'm annoying and intrusive.
I know this feeling so very well, and even though I'm getting better, it still catches me by surprise sometimes.
But hey, growth! At one point I would never have dared to speak up here; this is definitely the cool kids' table. It's just that I've learned that not all of life is a schoolyard, and part of what's so cool about the people at this table is that you're willing to welcome anyone who wants to hang out (as long as they don't try to bully anyone, of course!)
Anyway, there's a lot more I could say; as with many of the fannish sort, bullying is a loaded topic for me. I need to go get some sleep, though. Thanks again to everyone for being willing to share your stories and insights, and for modeling how to keep a community free of bullying.
* Once I happened to catch a segment featuring a former friend who is now the executive director of a DC-area nonprofit. They made her look like a total fool and played it for laughs. How is this not bullying?
Thanks for the perspective, Don. I wasn't aware of the history. Also, one of these years I will get to a con. Everybody always has such great stories from them.
Back to the original topic, though: I'm with Avram on the belief that failures in one area do not invalidate accomplishments in another. Chappaquiddick did happen, and Kennedy did get a lighter punishment than someone else probably would have. Such things should not be swept under the rug, but that doesn't mean they outweigh everything else Ted Kennedy accomplished.
We've lost someone important at an unfortunate time. I hope some good will also come of his passing, somehow.
Hmm, Tim, actually I see from your comment history that you aren't actually new here, so I apologize for assuming that you were. Still, you are one individual, and community standards are created by the community, not one person.
Tim @ 55 and 59, you have utterly missed the point.
First of all, there are multiple levels of civility. Dropping an F-bomb on someone long dead isn't exactly civil, but it's hardly the same as insulting someone who is present and involved in the discussion.
Second, granting for the sake of argument that the only two choices are "civil" and "not civil" with no middle ground, then heck yes I'd rather have the long-timers here deciding where to draw that line, than one individual who is new to the community.
While your original point is good, your delivery is getting in the way. Please consider the impact of your word choices.
Amen, sister! I, too, have been thinking this for years.
It boggles my mind that people put up with treatment from their employers that would make them scream and run for the nearest gun shop if the government did the same thing.
Yes, government is flawed and will always be so. It is always important to keep an eye on your elected representatives and the apparatus of state. I completely grok the conservative* position on that. But what leaves me blinking and scratching my head is the assumption that since government is flawed, the free market is automatically flawless.
In reality, the free market can barely tell a human being from a dairy cow, which strikes me as a significant flaw indeed. Ideally, the government is our collective means of ensuring our rights against forces that are blind to human values**, and yet it is currently unequal to the task because we in this country have spent too long believing there's nothing we can do about it.
We need to stop thinking of government as this faceless giant stumbling around out there someplace messing things up; in the US, the government is us. It's time we stood up and reminded our representatives of this fact. All the corporate money in the world can't win an election if enough voters are awake and aware.
* By which I mean the serious, rational brand of conservatism that is not quite as much an endangered species as sensationalist media portrayals would have you believe.
** Other than the profit motive, of course.
*** This is an orphan footnote. It needs a home; won't you adopt it today?
Madeline Ashby @27 (and others):
I disagree; the fight scenes were some of the least faithfully adapted parts of the movie. The violence in the movie is far more visceral, detailed, and extended than what is shown in the original book.
For example, Qna naq Ynhevr'f svtug jvgu gur xabg-gbcf va gur nyyrl is only eleven panels long in the book, and only five of those panels show actual violence. In the book there are no closeups of obarf fgvpxvat bhg bs bcra senpgherf be xavirf tbvat guebhtu arpxf.
Likewise, in the book, Avgr Bjy naq Fvyx Fcrpger guebj bar chapu rnpu va gur ragver wnvyoernx frdhrapr; in the movie, gurl tyrrshyyl jnqr guebhtu n jubyr unyyjnl shyy bs rarzvrf.
The zheqre bs gur Pbzrqvna and the nggrzcgrq nffnffvangvba bs Bmlznaqvnf are also much less graphic in the book.
In all fairness, though, the end of the book shows many more qrnq obqvrf in graphic detail than are seen in the movie, and most of the violence in Ebefpunpu'f backstory was eliminated.
I'm not saying the movie was bad; I rather liked it, even though I'm more squeamish about violence than I once was. It's just that the book is not at all an accurate guide to the level of violence in the movie.
This reminds me that one of the biggest problems I had with the movie is how "super" the human heroes were made to seem. One of the points of the book is that these are just people; trained and experienced, yes, but still subject to human limitations. I think far too much of that was dropped in order to amp up the fight scenes.
Oops, and I missed the note at the end of the main post that already answered my question: TexDoc did indeed go gently into that good night after having his ass handed to him, so thoroughly dissected into the half-ass it really was all along.
Wow. I do believe the original post is a fine example of what kids these days call "major pwnage".[1] Did TexDoc or anyone else even try to respond? It looks like the software change must have happened already because the original story now says 0 comments.
That letter is an interesting read; I hadn't seen it before. It's also interesting how TexDoc can dismiss every factual claim in that letter with nothing more than a "wow, she sounds jealous." That sort of thing seems just as much a feature of political discourse these days as is the sort of casual lie that James struck down so thoroughly.
Diatryma @ 37: Thanks for the rebuttal to that strawman college story! I work at a university, so this isn't the first time I've heard that particular eye-roller. It's nice to have something to bounce back with; the fact that it's equally strawmannish (strawmanoid?) only helps highlight how much so the first one is as well.
[1] And get off my lawn, you young rapscallions!
Charlie @154 - Those collar bombs are an interesting idea. To keep your hands free to fight, you could have some sort of short-duration timer, perhaps, though that might be hard to remember in the heat of battle. Or hold a cord in your teeth? (BTW: a huge thank you for writing another Laundry novel!)
Lila @165 - That's brilliant!
Micah @167 - Very good point. It might be interesting to highlight that by writing a zombie story and pulling a switcheroo somewhere in the middle - say all of a sudden it turns out the enemy isn't mindless after all, or there's a cure, or zombification wears off after some time. Suddenly, Our Heroes would have to face the consequences of everything they've had to do to survive.
Worst of all would be if they had to kill loved ones in order to survive, but later discovered there was actually a way to get those people back, if they'd only known. Now, that would be horror.
I've never been a fan of the horror genre, and my zombie experience is pretty much limited to "The zombie survival guide", "World War Z", and "28 Days Later" but I still find this discussion interesting. Abi's original point about scalability makes a lot of sense, as does the point raised by others that zombies can be killed without conscience or consequence. Even more compelling to me is the idea (mentioned somewhere above) that zombies represent the fear that the mass of humanity will turn against you and your little group of friends and literally try to devour you. That's a magnification of the fear many of us probably had when we were growing up, or at least those of us who went through junior high school in the US.
From a storytelling perspective, the thing about zombies that most interests me is the process of turning into one. (Michael Martin at #84 touched on this.) There are lots of variations that could be explored.
For example: If you are bitten, is it inevitable that you'll go zombie or do you have to wait and wonder and worry? Do your friends immediately have to kill or restrain you for their own safety, or can you still be trusted for some unknown amount of time? What does it feel like inside as you start to turn, and how much time do you have? Do you have to beg your loved ones to kill you for their own safety, or do they have to convince you you're turning because you don't believe it's happening? What is the first part of your humanity that goes away? What is the last? Is there any chance that a zombie has a remnant of human consciousness trapped inside while their body is puppeteered by drives they can't control? Or a remnant that is twisted and insane and enjoys killing and eating people?
Thinking about this stuff actually makes me want to go watch zombie movies just to see how they answered these questions. The only one I've ever seen is "28 Days Later", and its most riveting moment for me was when gur sngure ernyvmrq ur jnf vasrpgrq, naq unq whfg rabhtu gvzr gb ghea gb uvf qnhtugre naq fnl "V ybir lbh" orsber ur ghearq vagb n zvaqyrff, entvat xvyyre naq nggnpxrq. (I'm still not sure of the local statute of limitations on spoilers -- better safe than sorry.)
Another one, this time from my own life. After moving back to Oregon and enduring a nasty long-distance breakup on the way, I was pretty depressed. One night a couple of friends I used to game with back in high school showed up and invited me to a session with this new group that was starting up.
"Nah, I'm too depressed to socialize," I thought. But what came out was "Eh, sure, why not."
I ended up sitting across from this woman who had the most incredible blue eyes. I later found out they were tinted contacts, but by then it hardly mattered, and anyway her eyes are beautiful without them. Even ten years later.
I suppose I'm the result of a butterfly moment. My mother was near the end of a year in the US and trying to decide whether to move back to the Netherlands or spend a year in Australia. But then one day her car broke down.
My father is a mechanic.
Wow. I actually choked up when McCain conceded... not because of what he said, though he was gracious enough. Just the relief that it is over, and there won't be some sort of dead-ender legal challenge to Obama's victory.
I'm well aware that Obama is human and faces many challenges. We all have tough times ahead. But I am so very proud of my country tonight. Flawed and divided as we are, at least most of us stood up and said it's time to turn this mess around. Thank you all for that.
DavidS@226 - I lived in VA for six years and DC for 3. The counties reporting in so far are mostly the more conservative and rural ones; watch for Fairfax, Loudon and Prince William Counties in the northeastern region near DC. They're not "real Americans" there, ha ha.
Albemarle County (Charlottesville/UVA) is likely to go Democratic as well.
The southeasternmost counties, in the Virginia Beach/Norfolk area are highly populated, but also have a high proportion of military families; I'm not going to try predicting them at all.
Disclaimer: haven't lived there for a decade, YMMV.
Erm, I live in Oregon and we aren't electing a governor this time around. Washington state is, though; was that who you meant instead of Oregon in the governors list? I predict Gregoire the incumbent Democrat will win there.
Other predictions:
Merkley(D) wins Oregon Senate.
Schrader(D) wins Oregon's fifth district, succeeding the outgoing Darlene Hooley.
OR ballot measure 65 (open primaries, poison pill for third parties) fails by at least 5%.
Proposition 8 fails narrowly in CA.
Obama wins the presidency with over 300 electoral votes and about 52% of the popular vote. I'm not going to try to predict individual swing states.
I also predict the official poll closing times will be a bad joke because there will still be long lines at many precincts, particularly in VA where there was no early voting and many problems have been reported already.
Kathy@15, Lizzy@22:
Oregon is like California in that our ballots have to arrive by election day, not just be postmarked then. If you live here and haven't turned your ballot in yet, please don't put it in the mail! Check your local library or city hall for a drop box.
Side note: I wish more states used a system like ours, where your ballot is mailed to you and you fill it out and return it on your own time. Especially when I hear about long lines at polling places, and people having to trust electronic voting machines.
In late May my wife was thrown from a horse into a steel fence. Even though this was way out in the boonies, the local ambulance service was there in just a few minutes. Since her injury didn't seem life-threatening at first, the EMTs just C-spined and backboarded her as a precaution and drove off at normal highway speed with me following in the car; halfway to the hospital they suddenly flipped on the siren and sped up to 80mph. That was a scary moment, but I was glad to see other cars actually getting out of the way. Out here in Oregon, people are usually pretty good about that.
Once I got to the hospital (not being willing to drive 80 on an unfamiliar road and possibly make the ambulance come back for a second trip) I discovered that she had a broken pelvis, and that her blood pressure had suddenly taken a sharp drop halfway to the hospital.
Those EMTs saved my wife's life, so I raise a glass to them and all emergency workers everywhere. May you always have what you need to do your jobs, and the respect you deserve!
Hi. De-lurking for a moment here...
This thread is a perfect example of why I keep coming back to ML. Though there were plenty of disagreements and misunderstandings, in most cases the people involved actually worked through them, figured out where miscommunications happened, apologized when necessary, and carried out the whole process with an entertainingly high degree of flair and verve.
In so many places, the norm seems to be that discussions degenerate into flamewars full of people talking past each other. ML isn't immune to that, but I can't think of a place where it's rarer, except maybe some obscure little messageboards among friends. Kudos to all of you, except for the one or two trolls early on.
I always learn a lot here. Maybe someday I'll learn enough to feel less intimidated about commenting at a place with this level of discourse. Yeah, OK, maybe I sound like a squeeing fankid, but I am genuinely in awe of what I see here, dangit, and I'm tired of keeping quiet for fear of not having anything clever enough to say.
(De-lurk)
Born in early 1971. The first event I remember outside my family is the Bicentennial, I think partly because that was the longest word I'd ever seen. I remember seeing Bruce Jenner on Wheaties boxes, and not knowing who he was. I have no memory of Carter's election, though it was the same year. I was jealous of a kid at school who said he saw Star Wars five times, because my parents wouldn't let me go.
Next I remember hearing stuff about inflation, Camp David, and the Iran hostage crisis. Then in no particular order: Reagan vs. Carter, a total solar eclipse (we all had to stay inside the classroom when we were supposed to be out on morning break, and it got dark outside,) the first Space Shuttle flight, and Mt. St. Helens (I remember ash on our car, though oddly not on anything else.)
And I was totally convinced I was never going to grow up because there would be a nuclear war first. I remember seeing in the local paper that our town was a target because there was a nuclear research program at the University. They printed a map of town showing the various zones of destruction, like a bullseye. I remember deciding if I had any warning, I was going to hop on my bike and ride as close as I could get to ground zero, because I would rather die in an instant than after a week of radiation sickness.
I was a grim little kid, I guess, but I got better. Still, one of the things that most enrages me about all this OMG TERRORISTS!!! nonsense these days is the effects on children. We don't need another generation growing up in fear.
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