Terry,
I've been thinking about this off and on all day. I've only been blogging about 3 or 4 months. Not a long time. But I enjoy it and look around a lot, because there's just so much to see.
I'm daily appalled at the persistence of bush apologists and their ever more tortuous reasoning (if they even bother to give reasons). That's it - my main gripe. I've just reached the point, personally, where I can no longer listen to all the excuses. They sound intellectually dishonest to me. And I find it scary because it means either I've lost the ability to care about the other side, or the other side has moved outside my moral boundaries, or both. Not good at all. So I'm thankful for you and others who can still engage the dialogue.
Terry, I really appreciate your ability to stay engaged in a discussion for the benefit of people reading. I must say I've read through some threads on various blogs which have carried on and on, and great patience has been displayed. It is good work indeed.
I'm wondering if you feel that bush apologists you counter-post sincerely believe their own positions, because I fear it's just a game to some of them. It seems the time for reasonably standing down has passed, has it not? We have entered into a new phase of polarization, where I fear the bridge may be gone for some to cross back over. Eventually I'll read a comment that is just so morally vacuous that I am repulsed.
At that point I don't know what to do anymore.
A double standard is in play. The right calls the left on any and every demerit, while the left tends to ignore a lot of the right's bs. We can change the dynamic and we must. It will involve fighting back, but we can do it from strength. When they find an example of something "wrong" with the left, the left deflects it by (quickly) holding up a bigger example from the right. Should be easy enough to do, no?
Right: This comment X is an OUTRAGE!!!!!!
Left: Yeah, yeah, sure. Come back to us after you address *this*. Otherwise, get lost.
The worst thing to do is to ask how high? every time they say jump. So it's ignore, but first point out the hypocrisy. I think this is being done already by individuals, but it would be much more effective if we all could take this unemotional, blase, let-me-flick-the-bug-off-my-sleeve attitude toward their histrionics. Because, like the small children I know, these freepers just love to get a leftie hooked on the line and run him ragged answering one thousand stupid rebuttals. Don't reward bad behavior.
Thanks, Ollie, for that nice long list of conspiracy theories. What a handy reference. It's missing all the rebuttals, of course, but no matter. I can overlook that.
Chuck,
Your party has been hijacked. It's definitely not the party your parents belonged to. As I see it, traditional republicans need to #1) get rid of bush and #2) start rebuilding the republican party. It's your party too, but you'll need to wrestle it back from the nutbags. Unfortunately, I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. But if you have a nobler vision of what it means to be republican, I say - go get 'em, Tiger.
You're welcome. Pretty scary, huh? You can't make this shit up.
How did they do it...
Well that's another pail of worms, but the short answer is a few people had a plan about 20 years ago, and no one paid too much attention. And they executed their plan to elect people with a particular worldview, and now here we are. They saw a vacuum and used voter apathy to fill it.
theocracywatch.org has a great review of how we came to this place politically. The name for them is dominionists. It's not really about religion, but power. In the same way that rape is not about sex.
Got empathy? Vote Kerry.
Some christians may like bush's talk about values and working class people, but it's just talk. Bush gives the impression that he would keep the (liberal) infrastructure of this country but tack on fundamentalist values. New and improved america - we're just adding some missing morals, see? But the plan to dismantle social security, medicare, medicaid and public education are the unadvertised part of the deal. What I wonder is how many people who plan to vote for bush are aware of this trade off.
Mary Kay,
If intelligent people like your mom want to give bush every imaginable benefit of the doubt and basically refuse to believe he would lie, then it's no use arguing with them. My sister is like this. She gets her news from Fox and really does believe they are fair and balanced. She told me recently we should be proud of the president. I believe she actually can't imagine that he could be as bad as I think. She literally can't imagine it, so it must not be true. To me, her failure of imagination is what's really, really dangerous. I've given up talking to her about it for now because it's exceedingly frustrating. It really seems there are two realities in this country, and occasionally you see someone like Howard Stern and/or Bill O'Reilly get pinched by their own side.
Well, at the top of this page it says, "Hope has two daughters, anger and courage. They are both lovely." Attributed to St. Augustine. Peace.
You're correct that using absolute terms like all and everyone and noone weakens the argument. It's a bad habit - point taken and thank you.
You never know what people think until they have all the facts presented. I don't think we're anywhere close to having all the facts presented. Maybe there are lots of people who, after full disclosure, would still vote for bush. That would make me very sad, but it's preferable to having people say, "if only I had known x, I would never have done y". Well then it's too late. So, please forgive my poor choice of words.
Brennan,
I'm sorry. I'm speaking from New England. I see people going about their daily lives and not paying too much attention. The general feeling is Bush will lose in November, and I need to calm down. I do hope they're right, but I don't share their confidence.
Katherine Yurica (yuricareport.com) wrote an extensive article, The Despoiling of America, in which she details the plans of the religious right. By the religious right I'm referring to Pat Robertson, GW Bush, Tom DeLay, Antonin Scalia and other leaders in the republican party. Their real agenda is under the radar because it's abhorrent to most people and they know it. The neocons have been partially exposed with the failure in Iraq, but the theocons are still playing their cards rather carefully.
Just to give one example - they think medicare and medicaid are immoral because it's theft. Wealth is a sign of God's favor, and poverty is a sign of His disfavor. If you're poor, suck it up and go get charity from your family. It's not the government's problem to take care of poor people.
I would suggest that, while people may agree that these programs need changes from time to time, most americans like having a social safety net.
I don't think we on the left have to agree on much, actually. It's more a matter of shining a bright light on what another four years of bush really means. These people have twisted christianity into something else entirely. They are not concerned about lying because, to them, the ends justify the means. Therefore, they consider themselves free from the moral standards imposed on others.
Anyone who isn't already a member of this exclusive club has common cause against them. It doesn't matter if you're atheist, agnostic, jewish, catholic, protestant, hindu, muslim, buddhist, wiccan - whatever. The dominionists are very, very close to achieving a lock on political power, and they will use it to dismantle this country as we know it. We'll only find out what they really want to do after it's too late.
Somehow the left needs to rip the veil off. I don't know if it's best done by Kerry or someone else. I think someone else, but who? Who has the authority to make people listen? Who would be compelling? You all seem to be very smart. Do you have any suggestions?
Ok. Let's be practical. We know most americans believe in God. We're not trying to change the minds or religions of anyone, because we'd like this country to be big enough for all of us. People of faith can obviously disagree about the meaning of scripture. To me, the most important thing to keep in mind is that no one knows the mind of God. What we have here in this country is a profound lack of humility. For anyone to think that he or she really knows God's mind or plan is pure hubris.
So we're back to scripture, where we obviously disagree. I think one thing we can do on the left is expose the true beliefs of the right. For example, many people just do not realize that the religious right thinks that everyone who does not subscribe to their belief system will be damned to hell. And they want to institute a theocracy in this country. So really, as a catholic I find this insulting. Why should I vote for someone who thinks I'm going to burn in hell no matter what I do just because I'm catholic? What - just pay my taxes, die and go to hell? Ok then, I'm glad I know my place.
The real problem is this: the religious right is perilously close to cramming it's agenda down the throat of every person in this country, and yet they have not been honest about their agenda. Most people don't know one tenth of what the religious right really believes. Most americans just think it's harmless and doesn't affect them. Not true at all. Everyone assumes america will always provide basic protections like the separation of church and state. Guess again. We're about 8 months away from a theocracy. These people have been working toward this for decades, and it's all on the line this year. If they win, they take over.
Lydia,
One other thing before I go for the day...
I think most people who are christians (any variety) understand that the Lord's main message was uncomplicated - love the Lord your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. It's not always easy to do, especially that neighbor part. That's the rub. But in any case the main message is still very, very simple and clear. And I believe that's the way He intended it, so that ANYONE could understand it.
Lydia,
I don't think you're being a shit. You're right that the right wing is certain, certain I tell you, that they are correct. How many of them do we have in this country, 35 million? Something like that? Out of what, 245 million people? There are other viewpoints to consider. Check out liberalslikechrist.org. Ray Dubuque lays out a comprehensive argument.
I am completely sick and tired of self righteous right wingers. I don't require or want their approval. I think they are wrong about everything. I want to hear people challenge their views and push back on them in the public discourse. Let them be on the defensive for a change. Let them reconcile their exclusive view to Christ's teachings. They've been framing Jesus Christ for a long time now in this country, and I think there are many, many people of good will in the USA who would be thrilled to see people take them on in an effective way. AARGH, they are maddening people.
We're all working from the same bible, more or less. In the light of our political challenge and the enormous influence that dominionists have on the bushco strategy for reelection - my point is this: the democratic/liberal/progressive agenda has just as much claim to christian legitimacy as the religious right. In my opinion we have a much stronger claim. If the religious right insists on playing politics on this particular field, we can respond. The values of humility, charity, forgiveness and tolerance belong to liberals. That's what makes us "bleeding hearts" and worthy of scorn to them. Buy these values were taught by Jesus over and over again. We can parse the fine points till next Tuesday, but I'm just saying let's not cede God to the right.
Jesus was the biggest liberal ever. If He were here today, or should He decide to return, the religious right would be shocked to find themselves aligned with the hypocritical pharisees. I found a great site - liberalslikechrist.org - that debunks the theocon's arguments, and it's very comprehensive. The religious left is quiet by nature, but we really, really need to challenge these people this year. Now. They are perilously close to locking in power and dismantling our country. The right just cherry picks the bible while ignoring the messages of love, tolerance, humility, charity, etc. etc. It's time to throw the book at them, so to speak.
| Year | Number of comments posted |
|---|---|
| 2004 | 19 |
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