The most recent 20 comments posted to Making Light by Anna in Cairo:

In a just world, Richard Cohen would go to his grave with these words as his epitaph.

Isn't this sentiment just a little harsh? As I read it, Richard was explaining his opinion as it was back at the start of the Iraq war. He was far from being the only one who thought invading Iraq was a good idea at the time.

Saying violence (against other people who have nothing to do with the reason you need therapy) is therapeutic (for YOU) is pretty much the most incredibly awful idea I can think of. I don't know what is worse - the narcissism or the bloodthirstiness.

Really, I do not understand how people are allowed to keep cushy opinion writing jobs when they not only condone murder per se but mass murder.

It's a type of national incitement. I think incitement on the individual level is actually a crime.

Regarding Herodotus, my kids had to learn this in first grade (in sonorous classical Arabic) "As Herodotus said long ago, Egypt is the gift of the Nile". Every time I see the name I can hear that sentence in my head.

Thanks for discovering this. I wonder if the folks at Language Log know about it.

@#41: That is Pastor Swank! His language is not English. It's - well, it is a dialect that only he speaks.

Once he referred to "Muslim Murderers Global." (Sounds like a Muslim heavy metal band or something)

World O'Crap and Sadly, No! often mock his columns and those are always my favorite posts because his writing is so bloody surreal.

Regarding the English-only legislation: My big question is, if people like Swank, Bush, Rummy, etc. speak their own private dialects, are they going to be sent to prison or what, since they are not speaking English, the national language? Or are they sent to re-education camps where Berlitz makes them work with tapes?

Nancy C:

OH. I see. In that case you could conceivably define the entire Muslim religion as fundamentalist as we believe our text is divine. Of course, that would be kind of silly though. Because our text plays a different role in our theology than the Bible plays in Christianity. Actually if you compare Islamic theology to Christian theology the Quran would be analogous to Jesus rather than to the Bible.

OK Fragano, I guess I differ from you in this a bit but maybe not in the way I originally thought.

First, I find it sort of hard to define the actual religion, particularly since it's a faith I am involved in, because I believe it is a divine system and therefore beyond my finite and human understanding to begin with - so when I talk about the religion I talk about the people who practice it. Thus, I have been discussing Muslims and you are discussing Islam.

Yes, Islam does indeed have fundamentals (the 5 pillars that you have referred to: Shahada, prayer, alms, fasting and pilgrimage). But, I am confused regarding your contention that Christianity has none. Does not Christianity have views about faith and works, and what you are supposed to do as a Christian? The new testament is filled with suggestions as to how to live life. I thought those were fundametnals of Christianity. I guess I am wrong, or I am still not understanding you.

As I said, eventually it seems that all conversations on the Internet get reduced to differences as to the meaning/definition of a word. This conversation has been too interesting for that so I hope to hear more from you. Also sorry for mangling your first name earlier.

Once again here:
Frank Ledgister, Muslims are still Muslims whether they tithe, pray, fast, make pilgrimage or not. They are supposed to pray, etc. it is a duty, but if they don't, they are just not very "good" Muslims but they have not ceased to be Muslim. So your argument is not all that compelling.

As long as a Muslim says that he believes in God and the Messengership of Muhammad (PBUH) then whether he/she tithes, prays or not he/she must be considered as a Muslim by others. They may castigate him/her for lack of praxis / works. But that is not the same thing as total excommunication.

There are some who would take this argument even farther and argue for the existence of "cultural" Muslims or "secular" Muslims who are not religious AT ALL yet consider themselves Muslim in some cultural sense, and this is a current debate among Muslims. Generally, Muslims are leery of pronouncing non-Muslimness on anyone who chooses to identify as such because it is a very serious step for us (there is a saying of the Prophet that if one person pronounces unbelief on another, God will consider one of them so - so if you are wrong, God will consider you an unbeliever for being so hasty to judge the other guy).

These fundamentals are issues of belief, not praxis. This aspect of Islam, like other religions, is not the same as a fundamental of praxis. Of course in Islam you are supposed to believe in one God and Muhammad as his prophet. But, as I said upthread, whether you pray or not, whether you SAY the Shahada or not, as long as you believe it, other muslims have to consider you as a muslim (excluding weird fringe groups that excommunicate each other for all sorts of silly reasons but are not acknowledged or countenanced by normal everyday Muslims). I am speaking both about Shia and Sunni here.

In Christianity, you're supposed to believe in God as well, and also to believe in some sort of divinity role for Jesus. Or else, most people would say you are not really Christian, right? I mean if you don't believe in these two core concepts what is there to the religion?

But belief in theological concepts exists in most religions and I don't see how you can thus call the entire religion "fundamental" unless you are using a very unusual definition of the word.

As for the Protestants who base their beliefs on a near total reliance on the words of certain sections of the Bible who are called Fundamentalists, there exist similar groups in Islam - such as the Salafis who ignore a lot of later scholars and go back to the "basic texts" i.e., the Quran and Hadith, and there are some other smaller groups that use the quran only (see Submission.org for their take on things). Those would be what I'd call Islamic fundamentalists using a similar meaning of the word as it is used to describe Christian sects.

Anyhow this side discussion has as usual disintegrated into a discussion of how to define a term. It seems like a whole lot of Internet discussions end up like that.

#63: Well, true, Muslims are supposed to perform certain acts. But not performing them does not negate our being Muslims, it just means we aren't very good ones (e.g., prayer).

The only requirement for *being* Muslim is to believe in the Shahada / Kalima "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His Prophet".

Much like Christianity in which you have to believe certain theological concepts about Christ and God.

So really it is not all that different. And certainly not more fundamentalist.

Oh, how interesting about the acid thing. Yes jumping to conclusions is so easy, anyone can do it.. While this form of acid attack is quite weird and disturbing, it's a relief to me that they are not aping the S. Asian form of acid attack.

Peace,

If you are going to quibble with "christanist" because as Mac states, "I didn't mean to imply that Christianity somehow embraces acts of terrorism to make a point/disrupt people's lives and choices" then let me add my voice to the comments up thread and ask everyone to please help all of us American Muslims and come down very hard on everyone who uses "islamist" and "islamofascist" and all that as well.

In fact I think the word terrorist itself is pretty meaningless and loaded and I myself refuse to use it in this sense. There is nothing wrong with taking the position that these people are criminals and their crimes must be prosecuted. We can definitely talk about this particular kind of crime wave and speculate why so many people seem to think it is their religious duty to commit crimes at abortion clinics. but using these terms just is not really helpful to that end and legitimizes the "war on terror" flawed approach to similar crimes committed by Muslims.

I also want to register my shock and disgust that there are acid attacks. The more I see of Western misogyny the more similar it looks to Eastern (I see references to acid attacks in the news a lot, mostly referring to Pakistan and India - it is really a chilling type of crime that seems to express a particularly virulent hatred of women). I was familiar with this and Muslims often discuss it along with honor killings and FGM and other abuses that happen in Eastern countries. But I had not ever heard or read that Western, Christian abortion clinic attackers throw acid on women.

I agree so heartily that this weird hate filled attitude does not include normal citizens, religious or not, and it is great to find like minded people.

The main thing that is funny is the idea that the Muslim world has not suffered enough defeat.

And then to bring up the fall of Baghdad all by himself!

It's funny when a person's knowledge directly contradicts his own arguments yet he fails to be aware of it.

Also, I don't know why everyone assumes that Americans are completely incapable of understanding something longer than 5 words.

Yes they won't make posters to carry at protests, but what is wrong with informational leaflets? Or even, persuasive leaflets?

I recently read a web-based archive of the White Rose leaflets and thought that such a campaign here would be useful. It is also in the best of our many traditions (Tom Paine et al).

I think it would be neat if the Oct. 5 people tried to make visible the T-shirts that use the "we will not be silent" slogan from the White Rose.
http://thecriticalvoice.org/order/

Also, here is the place where you can read the leaflets.
http://www.jlrweb.com/whiterose/leaflets.html

Americans are not stupid. They can discuss sports and movies in great detail. This is more important.

We don't have to dumb it down.

I always read Making Light and usually don't post because I feel too junior to the regulars here...

I think it is simple what we are FOR. We are AMERICANS and we are for the Constitution.

The people who voted for this bill are against it.

We are the fors, they are the againsts. We are right, they are wrong.

I usually am all "shades of grey" about everything but in this case it is appallingly simple what we are "for."

The Sadly, No! people did a terrific Seuss take off based on "I'm the decider" as they correctly pointed out that it looks a lot like something a Seuss character would say:
http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/002598.html

Enjoy...

Thanks for this. My husband does a urine test abotu once a year or so because many members of his family including his mom have adult onset. In fact, it is really really common among older adults in Egypt. Really, really, common. I asked an Egyptian doctor about this and he first of all confirmed that my perception was true, said it was because Egyptians have moved from a diet of mostly whole wheat bread to a diet of mostly white rice over the past couple of generations and also that they use a lot of sugar (heavily sugar tea, condition kids to expect that drinks like orange juice, milk, and even Tang(?) be doctored with sugar, etc.) and also that they lead highly stressful lives (crowded, pollution, tension between neighbors, tension driving, many jobs in order to make ends meet, e.g.)

My mother in law has to take an insulin shot daily and at times she gets shaky and someone runs and gets her a glass of sugar water. She also has a variety of other health issues includign weird things like strangely misshapen ingrown fingernails that she sahs doctors have told her is a result of diabetes. (I defer to doctors here. My mother in law does not read and write and it is very possible that she misinterpreted something someone told her.)

Um, I have a bit of a beef with the editorial - he references Albert Einstein as "religious," yet the only real details he gives in the article are about Newton. I have heard many people say that Einstein is religious, yet I have seen quotes from him that seem to suggest he was agnostic or atheist, though certainly full of that sense of wonder that makes everyone sound like Rumi whether they believe in God or not. So if Krauthammer was going to bring him up, he should have given some specifics because I am not convinced that he even belongs in the "believes in God" category.

CHip, you wrote, "Looking at recent posts (especially the last one), it occurs to me to wonder whether the obsession with image -- the parading, the speechmaking, the refugee-hugging -- should be directly condemned by Christians as wrong in itself (e.g., not because it's a distraction or even an outright lie). I'm no Bible expert, but I'm reasonably sure I recall multiple direct slams at the people who pray noisily in public, and at least one order to go into a private place to pray."

Two of my favorite verses of the Quran are about this issue. one goes like this:
(sura #107 "small kindnesses")
Seest thou one who denies the Judgment (to come)?
Then such is the (man) who repulses the orphan (with harshness),
And encourages not the feeding of the indigent.
So woe to the worshippers
Who are neglectful of their prayers,
Who would be seen (at worship)
Yet refuse small kindnesses

And the other, Sura Tin (the fig)
By the Fig and the Olive,
And the Mount of Sinai,
And this city made secure,
We have indeed created man in the best of moulds,
Then do We abase him (to be) the lowest of the low,-
Save those who believe and do good works, and theirs is a reward unfailing.
Then what can, after this, contradict thee, as to the judgment (to come).

Like the verses in Teresa's bigle lesson they can be read as talking about the "end times" but really, they are talking about how religious people should act in day-to-day life and mentioning the judgement day as an added incentive. Like you state, the concept of religion is not about boasting how religious you are or showing off, it's doing day to day good things and keeping your religious observances in a non-ostentatious way.

I am sorry not to have gotten to this conversation earlier - I have just had the "throw the book across the room" experience with the latest Michael Crichton book Fear something, about how global warming is all a crock according to him. In this book there are a bunch of femme fatale characters that seem like they all came out of video games sneaking, murdering, seducing, emoting, and manipulating around, who are introduced in the first few chapters in a bewilderingly confusing series so that you can't tell one of them from the other.

This book made me want to throw it across the room for three reasons - not just one! One, that the wise scientist Kennan or Kenner or whatever, was so obviously a Gary Stu; two,that all the women were so damned cookie-cutter and it seemed as though Crichton had never met a normal woman but had gotten his knowledge of them solely by living in Plato's cave and watching James Bond films; and three, that he had such an obvious political agenda that he kept hitting the reader over the head with (complete with confusing charts and footnotes with cherry-picked data to convince us all there is no global warming and environmentalists are the new thing to have a global war against). I feel like I will never pick up a Crichton book again. And I enjoyed a couple of his older ones.

We Muslims, at least the ones I hang out with, usually refer to "extremist Muslims" or "Islamists". No Muslim that I have talked to liked or agreed with the term "fundamentalist" and I have noticed that the Arabic language press has stopped almost entirely using the term in Arabic "usooly" and instead uses "extremist" (mutatarif). As for far-right Christians, I think Rapturists is a good one. By the way Muslims tend to get into that end times stuff too. I often get e-mails about the end times and the return of the Dajjal who is a sort of Muslim version of the Antichrist -- really weird.

Also, I re-read this and are you addressing people who voted Nader in this election, or last time? Because I thought that Nader was not really that much of a factor this time.

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