I was born in 1977, and I remember when Reagan was shot and understanding that it was a bad thing and made a lot of people upset. I also recall a plane being shot down over Moscow, and the promise of lunar colonies by 1985, which had me in tears about five or six years later when I wasn't living on the moon. Mind, at 18 months of age, I either impressed or terrified my mother by stating, whilst on the way to buy my first set of Underroos, that the president owned Carter's Children's Wear. (I have a very vague recollection of freaking out a saleslady a short while later--she didn't think a toddler should be having full conversations, much less discussing the apparent state of Washingtonian business interests. ;) )
Freedom Tower? Officially?
*shudders*
And here I'd hoped that was only the working title.
*wonders if they'll sell Freedom Fries on the observation deck*wants a falafel now*
Damn it. Too much food over here today. Between the halal chicken cart and the Gulab Jamun mercenaries, I may have to actually cook.
*wonders if there're any falafel fixins in the house*
(Query: Is it a sign of Mary-Sueism if you use your character's name to play World of Warcraft? Too much self-identity?)
Piscusfiche: Only if it's Mary-Sueish to also use your character's name for your cat.
What? Their personalities are eerily similar, and they're equally likely to make me flee the computer room (where the kittens live) when being contrary.
*readies fork, in preparation for dead and dying Gulab Jamun mercenaries*
Billy, the Dark, and the Mysterious Drip, or, Uncle Vlad Comes To Town.
Patrick wrote:
I don't think I've ever had the experience of catastrophically and retroactively losing all ability to appreciate an artist simply because they committed a lousy piece of art.
In my experience, at least, it hasn't been due to a lousy piece of art. Every artist creates something lousy once in a while. It's when an artist repeatedly creates lousy art, especially when I know he or she is working well below his/her abilities, that I start to lose respect.
Keep in mind, I consider editing an art, and an essential one for a writer to study. (In some ways, it's the art, while writing is the craft.) Part of the art is knowing what doesn't work. If a writer either refuses to learn or neglects to do it, after a while, I just can't read any more. While I appreciate Monet's sketches for what they are, they can't take the place of his finished paintings.
Sorry if this makes no sense. I was woken insanely early by fifteen pounds of affectionate cat.
Anna said:
I can think of a couple of reasons, mostly based on my experience with text-based online roleplay games.
I know what you mean by it being easier to write oneself. The problem, though, is... they're just not doing that. They're writing ideals--what they want to be, what they would do if they suddenly had super powers and few or no flaws. There are ways it can be done well. Hell, write a Villain!Sue. There's no absolute law that says a villain has to get her comeuppance, but it helps. (Though there has to be some resolution. If the villain wins, she has to claw her way to victory. No, "Oh, you're better than us. Here. *silver platter*")
At the moment, I'm working on an epic non-traditional fantasy trilogy. The POV character and I aren't really that much alike, at least as I am now. If anything, he's a male version of me as a snotty, sullen, everybody-hates-me teenager, zits and all. But, in the end, he's his own character. He's a lot more reactionary and potentially violent than I ever was, and he expresses himself through minor political machination, rather than writing and being weird. If anybody's the Sue, it's one of his fellow apprentices (a loud, raucous, slightly insane boy with a taste for weapons and whores), who's still different enough from me to be unrecognisable. To put it another way: you don't need to write yourself to get into a character's head, and minor similarities are more than enough to give a writer his or her foothold.
Really, if someone just starting out writes nothing but Sues and Stus, it's not a big deal. We've all done it. I spent years upon years doing it before I learned better. However, when someone has got five or six novels under his/her belt, the tendency should be gone. A true Sue is a sign of lazy writing. (On the other hand, a bona fide superman/superwoman is a genuine challenge, because the temptation to make him/her superior in all respects is enormous.) I've spent enough time in fanfic and RPGs to know that Sues really are a natural part of the learning process. I only really get annoyed when pros start writing like amateurs, because it means I've plunked down my hard-earned money to read the sort of thing I could have found on fanfiction.net for free.
/rant *sheepish grin*
Heh. Should I ever become famous, if I start writing Sues/Stus or rehashing my old plotlines over and over, I give advance permission for someone to slap me. Then, while I'm too stunned to do anything, tell me I'm recycling myself.
I, too, used to be a Laurell K. fan. While I have nothing against porn--I've written a fair piece of erotica in my time--I object to Mary Sue PWPs. There's no plot, no real character development, and only the occasional shiny new image to make me go, "Ooh." If Laurell could recapture the old action and notions of self-restraint and blend them with the new, self-doubting Anita (maybe without the hordes of man-slaves and the uber-elite powaz), I'd take her up again in a minute. (A good, solid plot wouldn't hurt, mind.) But if I want bog-standard sex and guys in old-fashioned clothing, I'll read one of my mentor's old Regency romance novels for free.
*doesn't get why people need to write Sues and Stus, when flawed, fragile, real characters are so much more fun to work with*
Julia: EEEE! =) I love Pred! How's she doing? I haven't heard anything about her in ages. Oh, man. I had too much to do tonight anyway, but now I'm going to have to read some of her fic again. *grin*
That's protection of a fictional character under rule of law as in, a fictional character's rights cannot be protected as though he/she/it were a real person. Nothing to do with copyright or ownership. Sorry, that wasn't clear.
Julia: Do you mean the law that states that no sexual relationship may occur between an authority figure and a person under the age of 18 under his or her direct supervision, such as a teacher and student or doctor and patient? I have, alas, learned that one quite well, and now cling to the American ruling that a fictional character cannot be protected under rule of law.
But, yeah. I think I know what fandom you're talking about, and I fear I'm one of the people that made one of the biggest teacher/student ships the aircraft carrier it is today.
I know the name association will get out eventually, but I'm not sure how soon I want it to. (Hell, most of my fannish friends actively seek out stuff under my pen name. It's not exactly secret.) As far as other writers go, Cassandra Claire publishes fanfic and original under the same name, and she's written some explicit stuff, but I haven't had a chance to talk to her about it yet. (We've met, but we're not close by any means.) Right now, I'm really only worried about possible repercussions on writing something that the creator isn't necessarily happy with, prior legal standing, and with professional courtesy toward the creator.
If I were writing children's fiction, I'd be scouring the 'Net of anything with my name on it. As it stands, my novel's main character starts out age ten, but he doesn't stay that way. I don't pull punches when it comes to teenagers being randy little bastards, so there's sex and violence and all that good stuff that doesn't show up so much in children's fic. And I'm cool with that. I'm just not sure how cool other people will be with me doing it with borrowed characters.
S. E.
Kate: In one or two instances, my pen and fannish names have been mentioned in the same forum. I think I can have it changed in one instance, but I'm not sure what else is around. My LiveJournal, which has both, is easy enough to lock down.
I have a somewhat odd question on the legalities of a fanfic author going pro. Specifically, a fanfic author with some, er, adult material under her belt.
In a few weeks, I'm going to start querying agents on the first book of a trilogy I'm writing, and I'm not sure what to do with my fanfic. One fan novel is definitely coming down, 'cause it's the loose basis for the trilogy. But I'm torn on what to do with the rest.
If I wrote gen, I'd just leave it, but some of my fic is sexually explicit. Slash-type sexually explicit. Sometimes with characters that are of legal age in the country where the story is set (mostly the UK; AoC, 16), but not in America (where I live; overall AoC, 18). Most of the sex is written for emotional impact before kink value (long before), and there's no devious seduction by an older party (in the cases in which an older party is present), but I don't know if a lawyer would understand that or if she/he'd just go "kiddie porn" with no regard for regional age of consent or story context.
Part of what I'm asking is, Is there any sort of legal precedent in which a fanfic writer lost his or her career or was prosecuted (successfully or not) after turning pro, on the grounds of fanfic? And, if not, what are my chances of being made an example of?
Thank you!
S. E. Ward, being paranoid
From a random, complete stranger...
If an utter nobody like me can revise a novel, ANYONE with THAT bio can.
As long as the cat doesn't decide to help. *looks more clueless than reality would dictate*
Ahh, we used that one to death years ago. :) It's now meant to indicate general approval or to soften the impact of a potentially abrasive statement. Keep in mind, roving groups of fangirls are always assumed to be armed and silly (or at least ovaried and silly). Exaggeration within fandom is an art form. When taken to its most sublime conclusions, you can't even tell it's exaggeration.
Great. Plot bunny. And I've got a novel to finish this weekend. *thumps head on desk*adds curfew notecard to list*
Maybe slash writers going pro might be more comfortable writing mainstream fiction, then? Mainstream seems to be more character-driven.
Unfortunately, most of us seem to have a very genre-based mindset. I'm fairly slipstream, myself; I write in definite fantasy and SF worlds, but from a literary perspective. It really depends on the writer. Some of us are almost solely character-driven, and others latch onto plot like a chihuahua on a mailman. I like to think of myself as being in the second category; it would certainly explain all the fangirls saying, "But they need to shag more! You frustrate us! Bad writer! (More? Please?)"
I may have to do a poll on mystery writers and readers within fandom (when LJ is working again). While I've seen quite a few stories with mystery elements and even whodunits, I've seldom found a true fannish mystery. I'm not a big reader in the genre myself, but that sounds like a good formula for a lot of fan writers to move into. "I did it for LOVE" is a major motivation in a lot of fanfic.
Let's see now, "LOLYAYSQUEE!" is "laughing out loud, yay, squee! right? I can't figure out all of "OMGSOHOTLOL!!!one!!!..." though. Clearly the beginning is "Oh my God, so hot, laughing out loud," but I don't know the rest.
The mess with the exclamation points is a parody of a tendency that appeared on fanfiction.net a while ago. *sheepish grin* A mark of immaturity began as a series of exclamation points... and then someone missed the shift key. It grew from there. Other variations include the words "eleven" and "eleventy-one."
And, of course, there's the sub-dialect of Netspeak with regards to LOL, in which it's a general display of glee or cheer or approval rather than a true indication of laughing, but it all depends on the context, and... /linguist
S. E. Ward, Destroyer of Mysteries ;)
I'm dearly behind in commenting on this. I saw the original recommendation when Ellen posted about it, but I hadn't had a chance to read the "... And the next morning" version. This is especially interesting to me, as I'm one of that trickle of fanfic writers turning pro. (Hell, Ellen and I beta each other's stuff. *grin* She's the reason mine's any good.) It's enlightening to see an outsider's view on the subculture and the transition.
The difference in fanfic and professional standards has been a murky one since I started the move. The most blatant difficulty is sex. Given the sheer amount of acceptability placed on graphic sex in fanfic, it's been difficult for me to judge how far I can go in that respect in anything I want to have published. This goes double for slash; I know precisely how far I can go--all the way and off the cliff--when the boys/girls are intended for a fandom audience, but I'm still getting a feeling for the limits in the pro world. Gay sex is a touchy subject outside my little online niche. It's led to a lot of trouble writing sex that feel like sex, whether it be good or bad, but which doesn't cross the line from plot element to erotica (or porn).
I agree with Ellen that more "fade to black" scenes do need to be written out; they're one of the best sources of character development available, and you can sneak some wonderful little plot details into the mix. However, erotica's received such a reputation as "not real writing" that there's an enormous amount of fear regarding the label "erotica writer." Couple this with the most shunned of labels, "fanfic writer," and images of terminal rejection float before one's eyes. (The Catch-22 is that erotica is one of the easiest genres to be published when coming out of fanfic. It has been for me, anyway, and I'm not even a big sex-scene writer.)
The differences are a lot more widespread than just the sex, but it gets more nebulous after that. One difference I've noted is that fanfic allows for a lot more strictly character-based "story" and less out-and-out plot. I think this is one reason a lot of good character writers never make the switch. I'm lucky; for me, it's just a matter of compression and editing. Then, I came into fanfic with several years of unpublished literary and genre writing under my belt.
There's one area I know of in which fanfic makes a writer more prepared for the pro world, no questions asked: it gives you a phenomenal eye for copy-editing and proofreading. When you and your friends have notions of professional quality and you're the only ones who can do it, by gum, that mss is gonna be /flawless/. (Keep in mind, this is the extreme end of fanfic. There are still PLENTY of places to get your fill of "...... And tehn Harree OMGSOHOTLOL!!!one!!!...")
In the end, though, it's a strain to shift from a no-holds-barred standard where the Id Vortex can run relatively rampant to a more restrained one with alien concerns, like "word count" and "your writing's good, but I think you'd have better luck submitting to an erotica publisher." (Hey, we slash writers didn't get our reputation as perverts for nothing.) I'd like to formally compare styles and mores between fan-writers-turned-pro and writers who only ever wrote original, just to see if there are any differences that carry over. This will be more entertaining once the Internet revolution writers start getting published with more regularity.
And that's my really long way of saying, "OMG someone with real credentials is talking about us LOLYAYSQUEE!" ;)
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