Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Maud de Beauchamp

Female - Bef 1273


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Maud de Beauchamp was born in in of Bedford, Bedfordshire, England (daughter of William de Beauchamp and Idonea de Longespée); died before 4 Apr 1273; was buried in Church of the Friars Preachers, Pontefract, Yorkshire, England.

    Maud married Roger de Mowbray before 1257. Roger (son of William de Mowbray and Avice) was born about 1220 in of Thirsk, Yorkshire, England; died before 18 Oct 1263; was buried in Church of the Friars Preachers, Pontefract, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. Roger de Mowbray was born about 1257 in of the Isle of Axholme, Lincolnshire, England; died in 1296; was buried in Church of the Friars Preachers, Pontefract, Yorkshire, England.

    Maud married Roger le Strange before 15 Jul 1270. Roger (son of John le Strange and Lucy de Tregoz) was born in in of Ellesmere, Shropshire, England; died on 31 Jul 1311. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


Generation: 2

  1. 2.  William de Beauchamp was born about 1185 (son of Simon de Beauchamp and Isabella); died before 9 Oct 1260.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1186, of Bedford, Bedfordshire, England
    • Alternate death: Aft 28 Dec 1260

    Notes:

    Baron of the Exchequer. Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire 1235-37.

    "He joined the baronial host at Stamford in 1215, and entertained them at Bedford as they marched on London. He was among the baronial leaders excommunicated by name in Dec. 1215. [...] He was taken prisoner at Lincoln by the royal forces in May 1217, but made his peace before the end of the year." [Royal Ancestry]

    William married Idonea de Longespée about Jan 1220. Idonea (daughter of William I Longespée and Ela of Salisbury) died after 1266. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 3.  Idonea de Longespée (daughter of William I Longespée and Ela of Salisbury); died after 1266.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 1270

    Notes:

    Also called Ida de Longespee, but not to be confused with her sister Ida de Longespee.

    Children:
    1. Ela de Beauchamp died before 1265.
    2. Beatrice de Beauchamp died about 1281.
    3. 1. Maud de Beauchamp was born in in of Bedford, Bedfordshire, England; died before 4 Apr 1273; was buried in Church of the Friars Preachers, Pontefract, Yorkshire, England.


Generation: 3

  1. 4.  Simon de Beauchamp was born about 1145 in of Bedford, Bedfordshire, England (son of Payne de Beauchamp and Rohese de Vere); died about 1207.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: 1208

    Notes:

    Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire 1195-98.

    Simon married Isabella. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 5.  Isabella
    Children:
    1. 2. William de Beauchamp was born about 1185; died before 9 Oct 1260.

  3. 6.  William I Longespée was born in 1170 (son of Henry II, King of England and Ida de Tony); died about 1225; was buried in Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1175
    • Alternate birth: Between 1175 and 1180
    • Alternate birth: Abt 1176
    • Alternate death: 7 Mar 1226, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England

    Notes:

    Earl of Salisbury. Among the advisors to King John at Runnymede.

    Lieutenant of Gascony 1202; Seneschal of Avranches 1203; Constable of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports 1204-6; Sheriff of Wiltshire 1204-7, 1213-26; Lord of the Honour and Castle of Eye 1205; Cheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 1212-21; Sheriff of Shropshire and Staffordshire 1223-4; Constable of Portchester, Southampton, and Winchester Castle 1224; Keeper of the March of Wales.

    Yes, there really were two Ida de Longespees, and they were sisters. SGM post:

    From: Douglas Richardson Subject: Parentage of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT)

    There has been discussion in the past on the newsgroup regarding the placement of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the Longespée family tree. Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub FitzWalter) identifies Ida as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl of Salisbury." The William Longespée intended here is presumably William Longespée I who died in 1226, not his son, William II, who died in 1250. If so, this would give Earl William Longespée I and his wife, Ela, two adult daughters named Ida, one of whom married Walter Fitz Robert, and the other who married William de Beauchamp. Curiously Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.

    The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, as a Longespée has traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found in Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children of William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of Salisbury, including:

    "Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum") [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].

    It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is here styled Ida de Camyle in this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the Camville family.

    There are two contemporary records which prove that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The first record comes from List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer, which source contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:

    "152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide. [1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].

    Elsewhere I find that Calendar of Liberate Rolls 5 (1961): 93 likewise refers to Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, as "Ida Lungespee:"

    Date: 11 May 1162 -- "Liberate to Geoffrey de Lezinan, the king's brother, 40l. in recompense of a like sum received there of the issues of the manor of Henham [Essex] by the hands of Ida Lungespee." END OF QUOTE.

    To date to my knowledge no one has discovered Ida Longespée's maritagium, although she certainly had one in marriage. Recently I encountered a record which evidently concerns her maritagium. The record in question is a Wiltshire pleading which dates from 1249:

    "Walter son of Robert and Ida his wife, by Ida's attorney by writ of the present king, who brought an assize of novel disseisin against William Lungepeie for holdings in Scepperingge and Heniton, Farlegh' and Bidinham, have come and withdrawn by licence. It is agreed between them that Walter and Ida had put themselves utterly in William's grace for those holdings." [Reference: Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 26) (1971): 152].

    The lands involved in this lawsuit can be identified as Sheepbridge (in Swallowfield), Hinton (in Hurst), Farley [Hill] (in Swallowfield), and Diddenham (in Shinfield), all in modern Berkshire but formerly in Wiltshire. These lands were apparently held by William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela.

    VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 267-274 states that Sheepbridge "belonged with Hinton in 1236 to Ela, Countess of Salisbury." Countess Ela named here was the widow of William Longespée I. VCH's statement regarding Countess Ela's holding of these lands is based on a charter found in Calendar of Charter Rolls 1226 - 57, page 221, whereby the king confirmed a grant of Countess Ela of various lands to Lacock Abbey, in exchange for "10 l. yearly receivable ...... .of the manors of Shiperige and Henton, and the advowson of the church of Winterburn Shyreveton."

    The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=1dELAQA AIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=Calendar+Charter+Rolls+1226&hl=en&ei=M-U4TrbTFYvXiALj163DDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Calendar%20Charter%20Rolls%201226&f=false

    Countess Ela's charter is undated but surely must date from around 1236. My files notes show the following information:

    "In Feb. 1236 her son and heir, William Longespée, guaranteed her gifts to Lacock Abbey, while she agreed to surrender all her lands, rents and rights to him on 1 Nov. following. On 25 Oct. 1236 Ela, Countess of Salisbury, reached agreement with William Longespée, her first born son, that she may grant a moiety of the manor of Heddington, Wiltshire to Lacock Priory, which property fell to her on the death of Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex and Hereford. In the winter 1236 - 7 she resigned her custody of the county of Wiltshire. She subsequently entered her religious foundation at Lacock, where she took the veil before spring 1238." END OF QUOTE FROM MY FILE NOTES.

    Following Countess Ela's surrender of her lands to her son, William Longespée II, he in turn granted the four properties in question, namely Sheepbridge, Hinton, Farley, and Diddenham, to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. The date of this grant is sometime before 1239-40.

    In that year Sir Henry de la Mare was involved in a legal action concerning these four properties. A reference to this lawsuit may be found in Maitland, Bracton's Note Book 3 (1887): 286 - 287. This may be viewed at the following weblink:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=DtcQAAA AYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:LtFTiI1NIsEC&hl=en&ei=nmw5TsSXK42IsAKv3OEg&sa=X&oi=book_result &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

    So the question arises: When did Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida Longespée, acquire their interest in the four properties? The answer to that question is not exact but surely it must have dated from the time that Countess Ela of Salisbury was holding these properties and before 1 Nov. 1236 when Countess Ela surrendered all her lands, rents, and rights to her son, William Longespée II. Walter and Ida can't have acquired their interest from William Longespée II, as once his mother released her lands to him, he almost immediately conveyed these four properties to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. One of these properties, Hinton, subsequently descended to Sir Henry de la Mare's daughter and heiress, Maud, wife of Peter de Montfort, and thence to her descendants [see VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 247 - 260].

    So besides knowing that Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespée obtained their interest in the properties before 1236, what else can we know? More specifically, why would Ida claim these lands, if her brother had granted them to his seneschal?

    The answer to this question is not clear but a reasonable guess would be that these four properties were put up as Ida's maritagium when she was contracted to marry a Camville and that when the contracted Camville marriage failed to materialize or produced no issue, by the terms of the marriage contract, the lands returned to Ida's family. At that point, Ida's claim to the lands was essentially voided. This in turn would explain why Ida's brother, William Longespée II, felt free to grant these lands elsewhere to Sir Henry de la Mare.

    In summary, adequate evidence has been located which indicates that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was a Longespée. In 1249 Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida, sued William Longespée II regarding four properties then in Wiltshire, but now in Berkshire. The four properties in question were apparently part of the inheritance of Ida's mother, Countess Ela, who appears to have controlled the lands until 1236, when she released her lands to her son, William Longespée II. Ida's rights must predate 1236, as William Longespée II almost immediately conveyed these properties before 1239-40 to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. Thus William Longespée II can not have offered them as Ida's maritagium. This in turn implies that Ida Longespée was the daughter of William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela, and not William Longespée II.

    For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert:

    Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Symon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Yale.

    Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

    William married Ela of Salisbury before Sep 1197. Ela (daughter of William fitz Patrick and Eleanor de Vitré) was born about 1191 in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England; died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  4. 7.  Ela of Salisbury was born about 1191 in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England (daughter of William fitz Patrick and Eleanor de Vitré); died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called Ela fitz William. Founded the abbey at Laycock, 1238; abbess, 1240-57. Buried "in the convent choir beneath the altar." [Royal Ancestry]

    Children:
    1. 3. Idonea de Longespée died after 1266.
    2. Stephen Longespée was born in in of King's Sutton, Northamptonshire, England; died before 25 Jun 1260; was buried in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England.
    3. Ida Longespée died after 1261.
    4. William Longespée was born before 12 May 1205; died on 7 Feb 1249 in Mansourah, Egypt.


Generation: 4

  1. 8.  Payne de Beauchamp (son of Simon I de Beauchamp); died before 1155.

    Notes:

    Also called Pagan de Beauchamp.

    Payne married Rohese de Vere. Rohese (daughter of Aubrey de Vere and Alice de Clare) was born about 1110; died in 1166. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 9.  Rohese de Vere was born about 1110 (daughter of Aubrey de Vere and Alice de Clare); died in 1166.

    Notes:

    Payn de Beauchamp [...] was both outlived and overshadowed by his wife, Rohese [Rose] de Beauchamp (d. 1166). [...] In common with most of their contemporaries the earlier Beauchamps had already made grants to religious houses, including St Albans and Bermondsey, but the Beauchamps' patronage of the church now moved onto a new plane with the foundation of a priory for Gilbertine nuns at Chicksands, Bedfordshire, c.1150. Although her husband, Payn, was associated with her in early charters, Rohese was always spoken of as the founder. Her support for the priory and her forceful personality were vividly illustrated by her response to the death of her son from her first marriage, Geoffrey de Mandeville. After his death his men tried to take his body to Walden, Essex, for burial at the abbey founded by his father. On hearing this Rohese gathered a band of armed retainers and caught up with the cortege, ordering it to go instead to Chicksands. However, early the next morning her son's servants turned the bier around and took it to Walden Abbey before Rohese could prevent it. Thwarted in her efforts to have her son's body in her own chosen burial place, Rohese retaliated by taking all the furnishings of Geoffrey's private chapel for Chicksands. Rohese was also closely involved in the early stages of the foundation (c.1166) of Newnham Priory by her son Simon [ii] de Beauchamp (c.1145–1206/7). [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]

    Children:
    1. 4. Simon de Beauchamp was born about 1145 in of Bedford, Bedfordshire, England; died about 1207.

  3. 12.  Henry II, King of England was born on 4 Mar 1133 in Le Mans, Sarthe, Pays-de-la-Loire, France (son of Geoffrey V of Anjou and Maud "The Empress"); died on 6 Jul 1189 in Chinon, Indre-et-Loire, Centre, France; was buried in Fontévrault Abbey, near Chinon, Anjou, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: 5 Mar 1133, Le Mans, Sarthe, Pays-de-la-Loire, France

    Notes:

    Also called Henry Fitz Empress; Henry Fitz Geoffrey.

    Henry married Ida de Tony. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  4. 13.  Ida de Tony (daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester).

    Notes:

    Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

    While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

    Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

    [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

    For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

    As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

    For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

    William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

    Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

    A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

    Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

    Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

    As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

    In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

    An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

    I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

    I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

    Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

    Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

    I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

    Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

    Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

    From: mississippienne@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

    [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

    I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

    Children:
    1. 6. William I Longespée was born in 1170; died about 1225; was buried in Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England.

  5. 14.  William fitz Patrick was born in in of Chitterne, Warminster, Wiltshire, England (son of Patrick of Salisbury and Ela of Ponthieu); died on 17 Apr 1196; was buried in 1196 in Bradenstoke Priory, Wiltshire, England.

    Notes:

    Earl of Wiltshire, always styled Earl of Salisbury. Also called William of Salisbury.

    According to CP, he may have died in Normandy.

    William married Eleanor de Vitré about 1191. Eleanor (daughter of Robert III de Vitré and Emma de Dinan) died before 12 Aug 1233; was buried in Abbey of Mondaye, Bayeux, Calvados, Normandy, France. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  6. 15.  Eleanor de Vitré (daughter of Robert III de Vitré and Emma de Dinan); died before 12 Aug 1233; was buried in Abbey of Mondaye, Bayeux, Calvados, Normandy, France.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Bef 18 Aug 1233

    Children:
    1. 7. Ela of Salisbury was born about 1191 in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England; died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England.