Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Eleanor Welles

Female - Bef 1504


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Eleanor Welles (daughter of Lionel Welles and Joan Waterton); died before 1504.

    Eleanor married Thomas Hoo before 1445. Thomas (son of Thomas Hoo and Eleanor Felton) was born before 1399 in of Hoo, Luton, Bedfordshire, England; died on 13 Feb 1455. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. Eleanor Hoo was born about 1449.

Generation: 2

  1. 2.  Lionel Welles was born about 1406 in of Belleau, Lincolnshire, England (son of Eudes Welles and Maud Greystoke); died on 29 Mar 1461 in Towton, Yorkshire, England; was buried in Methley, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Privy councillor, 1434. Lieutenant of Ireland, 1438-42. Summoned to Parliament 25 Feb 1432 to 30 Jul 1460. Taken prisoner by Yorkists at the battle of Blore Heath. Fought at the second battle of St. Albans. Killed at the battle of Towton.

    Lionel married Joan Waterton on 15 Aug 1417 in St. Oswald's, Methley, Yorkshire, England. Joan (daughter of Robert Waterton and Cecily Fleming) died after 18 Oct 1434; was buried in Methley, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 3.  Joan Waterton (daughter of Robert Waterton and Cecily Fleming); died after 18 Oct 1434; was buried in Methley, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called Cecily, probably inaccurately.

    Children:
    1. Cecily Welles
    2. 1. Eleanor Welles died before 1504.
    3. Margaret Welles died on 13 Jul 1480.


Generation: 3

  1. 4.  Eudes Welles (son of John Welles and Eleanor Mowbray); died before 26 Jul 1417.

    Notes:

    Also called Ives Welles. He took part in the rebellion of 1405, for which he was fined 100 marks and pardoned 7 Aug 1405.

    Eudes married Maud Greystoke before 1406. Maud (daughter of Ralph de Greystoke and Katherine Clifford) died after 1437. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 5.  Maud Greystoke (daughter of Ralph de Greystoke and Katherine Clifford); died after 1437.
    Children:
    1. 2. Lionel Welles was born about 1406 in of Belleau, Lincolnshire, England; died on 29 Mar 1461 in Towton, Yorkshire, England; was buried in Methley, Yorkshire, England.

  3. 6.  Robert Waterton was born in in of Methley, Yorkshire, England (son of Richard Waterton and Juliana); died on 17 Jan 1425 in Methley, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Master of the Horse, Master of the Hounds, Keeper of Pontefract Castle, Bailiff of Hatfield.

    He was an important aide of Henry Bolingbroke, later Henry IV. Beginning as an esquire in the early 1390s, he accompanied Henry to the Baltic in 1392. (Also present on that expedition: TNH ancestor John Waterton, his brother.) He was one of the custodians of Richard II, he played a major role in the defence of the North against the Percys, and he was an executor of Henry's will. Under Henry V he received fewer offices and appointments but was still entrusted with major tasks, including charge of certain Scottish hostages including James I. He is mentioned in Shakespeare's Richard II, act 2, scene 1, as one of those who sailed with Bolingbroke from the continent in 1399, although in fact he was already in England and was one of the first to join Henry at Ravenspur.

    Both his parentage and his marital history have been subject to considerable confusion. J. W. Walker's "The Burghs of Cambridgeshire and Yorkshire and the Watertons of Lincolnshire and Yorkshire" (The Yorkshire Archaeological Journal 30:314, 1931) claimed that he was married only once, to Cecily Fleming, and assigned his first and third wives to his son, also Robert Waterton. This has been thoroughly refuted by subsequent research; Robert Waterton was married first to Joan Everingham, then to Cecily Fleming, then to Margaret Clarell. His namesake son Robert Waterton married Beatrice Clifford. This is what we read in the (most recently updated in 2006) Robert Waterton entry in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, and in other recent scholarship. Of course (at least as of today, 7 Sep 2020), the Robert Waterton Wikipedia article promulgates Walker's 89-year-old mistake, because Wikipedia. (While at the same time extensively referencing Douglas Richardson's 2011 Magna Carta Ancestry, which gets it right!)

    Brice Clagett, 4 Jan 2005, post to soc.genealogy.medieval:

    This message reviews various versions of the parentage of Robert Waterton (d. 1425), the father of Joan, Lady Welles.

    Walker's article in Yorkshire Arch. Journal vol. 30 says that Robert was the third son of William Waterton, of Waterton, and his wife, Elizabeth Newmarch. (To compound the confusion, the article at p. 368 says that Robert was third son of JOHN Waterton, but the pedigree at the end shows that the statement on p. 368 was a careless error.) If the pedigree is accurate, Robert Waterton had royal ancestry through his mother, daughter of Roger Mewmarch of Womersley, Yorkshire, who was son of Adam Newmarch and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Sir Roger de Mowbray, 5th feudal Baron of Mowbray.

    Hall's article in Thoresby Soc. Publications vol. 15 expresses doubt as to where Robert fits into the family, but leans towards the view that he was son of John Waterton, son of William Waterton (who according to the Walker article married Elizabeth Newmarch). This seems more comfortable chronologically, because according to the Walker article William Waterton was alive though not yet of full age in 1316, and Robert was not born until the 1360s.

    Roskell's History of Parliament sub John Waterton says that it is "demonstrably untrue" that Robert Waterton was son of William, citing a royal pardon of 1398 which says Robert was son of Richard Waterton of Waterton. Walker's article shows a Richard Waterton (who may have lived at Waterton though he was not the owner of the manor), fl. 1379, dead in 1392, who was a second cousin once removed of William Waterton who (allegedly) married Elizabeth Newmarch.

    ODNB sub Robert Waterton says that Robert was a son of William Waterton and Elizabeth Newmarch, and was "apparently the cousin of Sir Hugh Waterton." But the same oracle, sub Sir Hugh Waterton, says that Hugh was the second son of William Waterton and Elizabeth Newmarch -- and was a cousin of Robert! Obviously both entries cannot be right.

    What a mess. As far as I can see at the moment, the most likely version is that of the 1398 pardon cited by Roskell. Perhaps Roskell is a bit dogmatic concluding that it is "demonstrably untrue" that Robert was son of William -- surely this would not be the only time that a 14th-century pardon was mistaken as to the name of the pardonee's father -- but it seems to be the most concrete evidence that we have.

    Robert married Cecily Fleming between 1399 and 1408. Cecily died before 1422. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  4. 7.  Cecily Fleming died before 1422.

    Notes:

    Douglas Richardson, 3 May 2015, post to soc.genealogy.medieval:

    It has been claimed that Cecily Fleming, wife of Robert Waterton the elder [died 1425] was the daughter and heiress of Robert Fleming, Esquire, of Woodhall.

    However, a list of the quarterings of their Dymoke descendants includes the arms of Welles and Waterton but not Fleming [Reference: Lodge, Scrivelsby, the Home of the Champions (1894): 151].

    It may be that the Fleming arms were omitted from the quarterings, or that Cecily Fleming was not an heiress.

    Further study is needed of the quarterings emplyed by the various families that are descend from Cecily (Fleming) Waterton, namely Dymoke, Hoo, Willoughby, and Launde families. If the Fleming arms are excluded the other family quarterings, then the likelihood is good that Cecily Fleming was not an heiress.

    Cecily (Fleming) Waterton is believed to be the sister of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431]. See, for example, Harvey, English in Rome, 1362-1420 (2004): 177-178, available at the following weblink:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=GS6Oh6Gp66wC&pg=PA177

    Dodsworth's Yorkshire notes: The Wapentake of Agbrigg (1884): 27 gives evidence that Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431], was born in Crofton, Yorkshire, a village on the east side of Wakefield, Yorkshire. See the following weblink:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=IrkHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA27

    Dodsworth specifically states the the church of Crofton, Yorkshire was removed to a different spot in the parish and was "builded by & at the onely charges of Richard Fleming Bp. of Lincolne who was (born) in the same towne at the howse where Mr. Lister now dwelleth." END OF QUOTE.

    If so, Crofton would presumably be the home parish of Cecily (Fleming) Waterton. And if Dodsworth's notes are correct, then Richard Fleming was born in a house, not at a manor.

    Dodsworth records that over the south porch of the church in stone "are cutt 2 barrs & 3 fusills in chiefe, on the first barr, a mullett [Fleming]."

    Elsewhere I find that Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] presented Richard Fleming [the future Bishop] to the church of Gosberton, Lincolnshire in 1404. See Kaye, Brief History of the Church & Parish of Gosberton (1897): 35, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=zfIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA35

    Kaye likewise indicates that Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] presented Thomas Toneton/Towton to the church of Gosberton, Lincolnshire in 1402 and 1410.

    Harvey, English in Rome, 1362-1420 (2004): 177-178 cited above indicates that Thomas Towton was master of the hospital of St. Nicholas, Pontefract and rector of Wath-upon-Dearne, Yorkshire. Harvey cites as her source: Storey, Clergy and Common Law, p. 395, fn 314 for Pontefract; Arch. Seld. B 23, f. 128v which calls Thomas Towton "consanguineus" [kinsman] of Robert Waterton.

    Summing up the above findings, it seems rather likely that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress and that her home parish was Crofton, Yorkshire. Evidence has been cited which indicates that Thomas Toneton/Towton was a kinsman of Cecily's husband, Robert Waterton, Esq.

    Finally I see that Volume 1 of the Register of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln was recently published in 2009 by the Canterbury and York Society. If someone has access to this and later volumes, perhaps they can check them for references to the Bishop's family.

    Douglas Richardson, 4 May 2015, post to soc.genealogy.medieval:

    There is some interesting biographical material on Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431], the alleged brother of Cecily (Fleming) Waterton, in the book, Watanabe, Nicholas of Cusa - A Companion to his Life and his Times (2011): 125-129.

    On page 129, the author discusses Richard Fleming's nephew, Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln:

    "Robert Fleming, Richard's nephew and a resident in University College, Oxford, from 1430 to 1443, matriculated at Cologne in 1444 and then went to Padua. Once in Italy, he, like Grey, was attracted to humanism and, after obtaining a degree at Padua, moved to Ferrara to study under Guarino de Verona (1374-1460)."

    The editor of Testamenta Eboracensia 2 (Surtees Soc. 30) (1855): 230 states in a footnote that Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln, was brother to the above mentioned Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln [died 1483]. However, Twemlow, Calendar of Entries in the Papal Registers relating to Great Britain and Ireland: Papal Letters 7 (1906): 497 proves that Bishop Richard Fleming was uncle to Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln. This record reads as follows:

    "Date: 13 Kal. Feb. 1427 [i.e., 20 Jan. 1427]. To Robert Flemmyng, clerk, of the diocese of York. Dispensation, at his own petition and that of Richard, bishop of Lincoln, whose nephew he is, after he, who is in his tenth year, has reached his twelfth year, to receive and hold any canonry and subdiaconal prebend." END OF QUOTE.

    There is a helpful biography of Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln, in Lumb, Registers of the Parish Church of Methley (Thoresby Soc. 12) (1903): 134, which may be viewed at the following weblink:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=iW0_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA134

    Assuming that Cecily Fleming, wife of Robert Waterton, Esquire, was the sister of Richard Fleming, Bishop of Lincoln [died 1431], as well as the aunt of Robert Fleming, Dean of Lincoln [died 1483], it is inconceivable that Cecily Fleming was an heiress any time during her lifetime or any time near afterwards, as she had at least one male member of her family living until at least 1483.

    A record concerning the estate of Robert Waterton, Esquire [died 1425] is found in Heriots, &c., on the Wakefield Manor Rolls published in Northern Genealogist 6 (1903): 59. The record reads as follows:

    "1427. Stanley. Robert Waterton, esquire, is dead, and Robert his son and heir pays 18d. heriot."

    The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

    http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044090345943;view=1up;seq=69

    Given the above record and other evidence which proves that Robert Waterton, Esquire [died 1425] held property at Stanley, Yorkshire, the following Common Pleas record may be of interest:

    In 1422 Simon Flemyng sued William Hobson, of Stanley, Yorkshire, husbandman, and four others in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a trespass [vi et armis] in Stanley, Yorkshire. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/647, image 246f available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/H6/CP40no647/aCP40no647fronts/IMG_0246.htm].

    Douglas Richardson, 7 May 2015, post to soc.genealogy.medieval:

    I noted earlier this past week that a list of the quarterings of the Dymoke family included the arms of Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming. See Lodge, Scrivelsby, the Home of the Champions (1894): 151.

    I've since located a list of the quarterings of the Copley family, which family is likewise descended from Cecily (Fleming) Waterton. As with the Dymoke quarterings, the Copley quarterings include the arms of Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming. See Surrey Archaeological Collections, 3 (1865): 362, available at the following weblink:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=vTUGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA362

    It may be that the Fleming arms were carelessly omitted from both sets of the quarterings, or it may be that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress at all.

    Since this is the second set of quarterings which has omitted the Fleming arms, it's looking more and more likely that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress.

    Douglas Richardson, 8 May 2015, post to soc.genealogy.medieval:

    This past week I posted heraldic quarterings for the Dymoke and Copley families, which families are lineal descendants and co-heirs of Robert Waterton, Esq. [died 1425] and his wife, Cecily Fleming. Under normal circumstances, if Cecily Fleming was truly an heiress, or an heiress in her issue, the quarterings should have included the Fleming arms. They did not.

    Below are quartering yet for another branch of Waterton-Fleming family, namely the Berkeley family, of Wymondham, Leicestershire. As with the Dymoke and Copley families, the quarterings include Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

    "Berkeley, Wymondham, co. Leicester; Baronetcy 1611, extinct ...., quartering Hamlyn, Delalaunde, Welles, Engaine, and Waterton, Harl. MS. 6183, fo. 5." [Reference: Papworth, Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of Arms ... Ordinary of British Armorials (1874): 427].

    Archaeologia Cantiana 26 (1904): 326-327 gives a similar set of heraldic quarterings found at the tomb of Gabriel Livesey [died 1622] and his wife, Anne Sondes. Gabriel Livesey was the son of Robert Livesey, by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Maurice Berkeley, Esq., of Wymondham, Leicestershire. Once again the quarterings contain Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

    Lincolnshire Notes & Queries 18 or 19 (1924): 116 includes a description plate of brass containing quarterings for the Metham family, including Welles and Waterton again, but not Fleming.

    Reports and Papers of the Architectural and Archaeological Societies of the Counties of Lincoln and Northampton 8 (1865-66): 11 provides a description of the various heraldic panels found at Spilsby, Lincolnshire at the tomb of Richard Bertie, Esq. [died 1582] and his wife, Katherine Willoughby, Duchess of Suffolk [died 1580]. Katherine Willoughby was a lineal descendant and one of the co-heirs of Robert Waterton, Esq., and his wife, Cecily Fleming. The various panels include various quarterings of the Willoughby family, including Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

    So far I've located six sets of quarterings for different branches of descendants of Robert Waterton, Esq., and Cecily Fleming. All six quarterings include Welles and Waterton, but not Fleming.

    I conclude on the basis of the heraldic evidence that Cecily (Fleming) Waterton was not an heiress as claimed by Robert Glover, Somerset Herald.

    Children:
    1. 3. Joan Waterton died after 18 Oct 1434; was buried in Methley, Yorkshire, England.


Generation: 4

  1. 8.  John Welles was born on 20 Apr 1352 in Conisholme, Lincolnshire, England (son of John de Welle and Maud de Ros); died on 26 Aug 1421.

    Notes:

    Or Welle. He was a lifelong retainer of John of Gaunt, whom he accompanied on the march from Calais to Bordeaux in 1373. He also took part in Richard II's 1385 expedition to Scotland. He was summoned to Parliament by writs from 20 Jan 1376 to 26 Feb 1421.

    John married Eleanor Mowbray before 1368. Eleanor (daughter of John Mowbray and Elizabeth de Segrave) was born before 1361. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 9.  Eleanor Mowbray was born before 1361 (daughter of John Mowbray and Elizabeth de Segrave).
    Children:
    1. Eleanor Welles died after 7 Nov 1458.
    2. 4. Eudes Welles died before 26 Jul 1417.

  3. 10.  Ralph de Greystoke was born on 18 Oct 1353 in Kirkby Ravensworth, Yorkshire, England (son of William de Greystoke and Joan Fitz Hugh); died on 6 Apr 1418.

    Other Events:

    • Baptised: 18 Oct 1353, Kirkby Ravensworth, Yorkshire, England

    Notes:

    He was summoned to Parliament by writs dated 28 Dec 1375 to 5 Oct 1417. He served in the Scottish wars and was taken prisonor by George, Earl of Dunbar, in a skirmish at Horseridge near Glendale ward, Northumberland, in 1380. On 23 Oct 1399 he was one of the lords who assented in Parliament to the secret imprisonment of Richard II.

    Ralph married Katherine Clifford before 1378. Katherine (daughter of Roger de Clifford and Maud de Beauchamp) died on 23 Apr 1413; was buried in Church of the Dominican Friars, York, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  4. 11.  Katherine Clifford (daughter of Roger de Clifford and Maud de Beauchamp); died on 23 Apr 1413; was buried in Church of the Dominican Friars, York, Yorkshire, England.
    Children:
    1. 5. Maud Greystoke died after 1437.
    2. John de Greystoke was born about 1390; died on 8 Aug 1436.

  5. 12.  Richard Waterton (son of William Waterton).

    Richard married Juliana. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  6. 13.  Juliana
    Children:
    1. 6. Robert Waterton was born in in of Methley, Yorkshire, England; died on 17 Jan 1425 in Methley, Yorkshire, England.
    2. John Waterton was born about 1365 in of Waterton, Lincolnshire, England; died between 16 Mar 1417 and 5 Nov 1417.