Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Mary fitz Ranulph

Female - Bef 1320


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Mary fitz Ranulph (daughter of Ralph fitz Ranulph and Anastasia de Percy); died before 11 Apr 1320; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Also called Mary of Middleham. "She married Robert de Neville, Lord of Raby, who soon after, violating the sanctity of another domestic hearth, met with speedy retribution. Being detected in one of his clandestine visits to a lady in Craven, he was so horribly mutilated by her husband that he died of his wounds, on the 6th of June, 1271. Mary of Middleham did not again enter the bonds of wedlock, but lived on her own inheritance, and dying, in 1320, was buried beside her husband in the choir at Coverham. Ralph, the only child of the marriage, inherited Raby, on the death of his grandfather; but he was so indolent and careless in the management of his affairs, that his mother settled Middleham and the rest of her manors on her grandson, Robert Neville, commonly called 'The Peacock of the North.'" (History and Directory of Old Yorkshire by T. F. Bulmer, 1890.)

    Mary married Robert de Neville about 1260. Robert (son of Robert de Neville and (Unknown first wife of Robert de Neville)) was born before 1240 in of Middleham, Yorkshire, England; died on 6 Aug 1271. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

    Children:
    1. Ranulph de Neville was born on 18 Oct 1262 in of Raby, Durham, England; died after 18 Apr 1331; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

Generation: 2

  1. 2.  Ralph fitz Ranulph was born in in of Middleham, Durham, England (son of Ranulph fitz Robert and Mary le Bigod); died on 31 Mar 1270; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: of Middleham, Yorkshire, England

    Ralph married Anastasia de Percy. Anastasia (daughter of William de Percy and Joan Briwerre) died before 28 Apr 1272. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 3.  Anastasia de Percy (daughter of William de Percy and Joan Briwerre); died before 28 Apr 1272.
    Children:
    1. 1. Mary fitz Ranulph died before 11 Apr 1320; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.


Generation: 3

  1. 4.  Ranulph fitz Robert was born about 1185 in of Middleham, Yorkshire, England (son of Robert fitz Ralph and Hawise de Glanville); died before 7 Dec 1252; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Justice.

    Ranulph married Mary le Bigod. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 5.  Mary le Bigod (daughter of Roger II le Bigod and Ida de Tony).
    Children:
    1. 2. Ralph fitz Ranulph was born in in of Middleham, Durham, England; died on 31 Mar 1270; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

  3. 6.  William de Percy was born about 1193 in of Topcliffe, Yorkshire, England (son of Henry de Percy and Isabel de Brus); died before 28 Jul 1245; was buried in Sallay Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1193, Alnwick, Northumberland, England
    • Alternate birth: 1197, of Topcliffe, Yorkshire, England

    Notes:

    "His heart was buried before the Lady altar in the church or chapel of the Hospital of Sandon, Surrey." [Royal Ancestry]

    William married Joan Briwerre about 1226. Joan (daughter of William de Briwerre and Beatrice de Vaux) died before 12 Jun 1233; was buried in Hospital of Sandon, Surrey, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  4. 7.  Joan Briwerre (daughter of William de Briwerre and Beatrice de Vaux); died before 12 Jun 1233; was buried in Hospital of Sandon, Surrey, England.
    Children:
    1. 3. Anastasia de Percy died before 28 Apr 1272.


Generation: 4

  1. 8.  Robert fitz Ralph was born in in of Middleham, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Forester of Wensleydale.

    Robert married Hawise de Glanville. Hawise (daughter of Ranulph de Glanville and Bertha de Valognes) was born in in of Coverham, Yorkshire, England; died on 1 Mar 1195; was buried in Swainby Abbey, Yorkshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  2. 9.  Hawise de Glanville was born in in of Coverham, Yorkshire, England (daughter of Ranulph de Glanville and Bertha de Valognes); died on 1 Mar 1195; was buried in Swainby Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

    Notes:

    Or Helewise.

    Children:
    1. 4. Ranulph fitz Robert was born about 1185 in of Middleham, Yorkshire, England; died before 7 Dec 1252; was buried in Coverham Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

  3. 10.  Roger II le Bigod was born before 1140 in Thetford, Norfolk, England (son of Hugh I le Bigod and Juliana de Vere); died before 2 Aug 1221.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: of Framlingham, Suffolk, England
    • Alternate birth: Abt 1150

    Notes:

    Earl of Norfolk. Hereditary Steward of the Household; Privy Councillor; Keeper of Hertford Castle 1191; Judge in the King's Court 1195, 1196, 1199, 1202; Chief Judge in the King's Court 1197; Warden of Romford Forest 1200.

    Magna Carta surety.

    Edward Maunde Thompson, in the Dictionary of National Biography (1886):

    BIGOD, ROGER (d. 1221), second Earl of Norfolk, was son of Hugh, first earl [q. v.] On the death of his father in 1176, he and his stepmother, Gundreda, appealed to the king on a dispute touching the inheritance, the countess pressing the claims of her own son. Henry thereupon seized the treasures of Earl Hugh into his own hands, and it seems that during the remainder of this reign Roger had small power, even if his succession was allowed. His position, however, was not entirely overlooked. He appears as a witness to Henry's award between the kings of Navarre and Castile on 16 March 1177, and in 1186 he did his feudal service as steward in the court held at Guildford.

    On Richard's succession to the throne, 3 Sept. 1189, Bigod was taken into favour. By charter of 27 Nov. the new king confirmed him in all his honours, in the earldom of Norfolk, and in the stewardship of the royal household, as freely as Roger, his grandfather, and Hugh, his father, had held it. He was next appointed one of the ambassadors to Philip of France to arrange for the crusade, and during Richard's absence from England on that expedition he supported the king's authority against the designs of Prince John. On the pacification of the quarrel between the prince and the chancellor, William Longchamp, bishop of Ely, on 28 July 1191, Bigod was put into possession of the castle of Hereford, one of the strongholds surrendered by John, and was one of the chancellor's sureties in the agreement. In April 1193 he was summoned with certain other barons and prelates to attend the chancellor into Germany, where negotiations were being carried on to effect Richard's release from captivity; and in 1194, after the surrender of Nottingham to the king, he was present in that city at the great council held on 30 March. At Richard's re-coronation, 17 April, he assisted in bearing the canopy. In July or August of the same year he appears as one of the commissioners sent to York to settle a quarrel between the archbishop and the canons.

    After Richard's return home, Bigod's name is found on the records as a justiciar, fines being levied before him in the fifth year of that king's reign, and from the seventh onwards. He also appears as a justice itinerant in Norfolk. After Richard's death, Bigod succeeded in gaining John's favour, and in the first years of his reign continued to act as a judge. In October 1200 he was one of the envoys sent to summon William of Scotland to do homage at Lincoln, and was a witness at the ceremony on 22 Nov. following; but at a later period he appears to have fallen into disgrace, and was imprisoned in 1213. In the course of the same year, however, he was released and apparently restored to favour, as he accompanied the king to Poitou in February 1214, and about the same time compounded by a fine of 2,000 marks for the service of 120 knights and all arrears off scutages. Next year he joined the confederate barons in the movement which resulted in the grant of Magna Charta on 15 June 1215, and was one of the twenty-five executors, or trustees, of its provisions. He was consequently included in the sentence of excommunication which Innocent III soon afterwards declared against the king's opponents, and his lands were cruelly harried by John's troops in their incursions into the eastern counties.

    After the accession of Henry III, Bigod returned to his allegiance, and his hereditary right to the stewardship of the royal household was finally recognised at the council of Oxford on 1 May 1221. But before the following August he died. He was succeeded by his eldest son, Hugh, as third earl, who, however, survived him only four years.

    Roger married Ida de Tony about 25 Dec 1181. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  4. 11.  Ida de Tony (daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester).

    Notes:

    Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

    While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

    Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

    [...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

    For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

    As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

    For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

    William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

    Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

    A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

    From: Douglas Richardson
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

    Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

    Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

    As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

    In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

    An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

    I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

    I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

    Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

    Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

    I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

    Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

    Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

    From: mississippienne@gmail.com
    Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
    Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

    [...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

    I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

    Children:
    1. Margaret le Bigod
    2. Hugh II le Bigod died between 11 Feb 1225 and 18 Feb 1225.
    3. 5. Mary le Bigod

  5. 12.  Henry de Percy was born in in of Petworth, Sussex, England (son of Joscelin of Louvain and Agnes de Percy); died before 29 Sep 1198.

    Notes:

    He took his mother's name.

    Henry married Isabel de Brus. Isabel (daughter of Adam II de Brus and Juetta de Arches) was born in in of Skelton, Yorkshire, England; died after 1230. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  6. 13.  Isabel de Brus was born in in of Skelton, Yorkshire, England (daughter of Adam II de Brus and Juetta de Arches); died after 1230.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate death: Aft 29 Mar 1246

    Children:
    1. 6. William de Percy was born about 1193 in of Topcliffe, Yorkshire, England; died before 28 Jul 1245; was buried in Sallay Abbey, Yorkshire, England.

  7. 14.  William de Briwerre was born in in of Torre, Devon, England (son of Thomas Briwerre and (Unknown) de Albemarle); died on 24 Nov 1226; was buried in Dunkeswell Abbey, Devon, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Abt 1145, of King's Somborne, Ashley, Hampshire, England

    Notes:

    Also called Briwere, Briguerre. Justice of the King's Bench for both kings Richard I and John. Sheriff of Devon, 1179-89, 1200; of Berkshire 1190-94; of Oxfordshire 1190-4, 1201-2; of Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire, 1194-1200, 1203-4; of Hampshire 1199-1201, 1207-9, 1212, 1214-15; of Cornwall 1202-4; of Somerset and Dorset 1207-9; of Wiltshire 1207-9; of Sussex 1208-9; of Gloucestershire 1220. Hereditary forester of Bere Ashley Forest.

    "In 1223 he opposed the confirmation of the Magna Carta and the charter of the forest, declaring that they were 'extorted by violence.'" [Royal Ancestry]

    "When King Richard left England in 1189, he appointed Briwere to be one of the four justices to whom he committed the charge of the kingdom. Called one of King John's evil counselors who care for nothing but to please their master. One of the favorite counsellors of Henry III." [The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz]

    Buried in the habit of a Cistercian monk before the high altar in Dunkeswell Abbey, Devon.

    William married Beatrice de Vaux. Beatrice (daughter of Hubert de Vaux and Grace) was born about 1149; died on 24 Mar 1217; was buried in Mottisfont Priory, Hampshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]


  8. 15.  Beatrice de Vaux was born about 1149 (daughter of Hubert de Vaux and Grace); died on 24 Mar 1217; was buried in Mottisfont Priory, Hampshire, England.

    Other Events:

    • Alternate birth: Bef 1156

    Notes:

    Also called Beatrice de Valle, Beatrice de Vallibus. Former mistress of Reynold Fitz Roy, earl of Cornwall (d. 1 Jul 1175), but The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz says that she "may have been identical to his wife."

    Children:
    1. Margery Briwerre died after 1232.
    2. Isabel de Briwerre died before 10 Jun 1233.
    3. Grace Briwerre died before 1215.
    4. Alice de Briwere died after 1239.
    5. 7. Joan Briwerre died before 12 Jun 1233; was buried in Hospital of Sandon, Surrey, England.