Minor nit, but you've typo'd 'cutlery' as 'cultery' three times here. Amusing typo!

"Cultery" is quite appropriate.

I have a different dichotomy for arguers that I'm sure is related to this but doesn't neccessarily map exactly.

Actually I'll lable what I'm talking about as fights or getting angry rather an neccessarily an argument.

There are the people who explode and shout and half an hour later are unaffected by the outburst and the people who if driven to yelling will still be stewing about the interaction days or weeks later.

I'm definitly the latter and I think most truth shouters are but they wouldn't have to be.

Forgive me, but I've got visions of shrieking cult priests being shot from a circus cannon stuck in my head.

I wonder if the ambient emotional temperature of the family/culture one grew up in can lead to misunderstandings as well. I realized a couple of years ago that one of my problems in the workplace is that, having grown up in a family where I learned to tell if my mom was upset by subtle changes in her breathing patterns, I now frequently have to deal with customers who display more distress over not getting a free replacement light bulb than my parents would if someone died. Even though I know I didn't just ruin the customer's life, I feel stressed out and upset, like I have to solve their situation or I'm a horrible worthless cold-hearted person. Meanwhile they probably just hang up the phone and say, "good, that's put a fire under them," or "oh well, it was worth a try."

I just wanted to thank you for the classification. It made me realise something about the arguments I have with my girlfriend, and how we talk past each other. I'm a truth-shouter and she's a cutlery-loader, and just having that idea makes some of our past miscommunications make so much more sense!

Thank you.

the invisible one, S&T/971: I frankly don't want to have her over to my place for the foreseeable future, because even if the whole place is absolutely sparkling and she can't find anything about it to criticize, I feel sure that she'll comment about what it used to look like

That is a perfectly good reason for drawing a boundary. Your territory, you get to make the rules.

My usual reaction to people offering criticism (which doesn't hurt) that I didn't find useful has been to appease until they go away, then ignore them and continue doing it my way - while also making sure that they don't see it again, so they can't criticize it.

An eminently logical approach, similar to saying "mm-hm" in various places as appropriate before proceeding to ignore the entire UR DOIN IT RONG lecture. Why get into a fight if you don't have to? I also don't see how anybody gets from that to "you won't take suggestions" when the suggestions being made are not useful.

abi, S&T/980: Thanks. I was concerned about how fast the thread was filling up, with the last few very active discussions.

"My usual reaction to people offering criticism (which doesn't hurt) that I didn't find useful has been to appease until they go away, then ignore them and continue doing it my way - while also making sure that they don't see it again, so they can't criticize it."

This is something I always thought of as a Southern characteristic. At the very least it's something I learned during my childhood in the Deep South. It goes hand-in-hand with "kill them with kindness," and I've always had vague guilt feelings about putting people off this way so I can do my own thing.

But perhaps it's not just Southern and perhaps it's not such a bad habit to have. I'll have to reconsider.

As an aside, I'm having trouble fitting myself into these two categories. Where's the one for people who hate fighting and won't do it?

The idea that different people have different fighting styles, and that some of them are incompatible with others, goes well beyond these two paradigms. Furthermore, you learn your basic fighting style from the people you grow up with, and that can cause problems in later relationships.

My parents were Shouters. At this late date, I can't even guess at whether they were Truth-Shouters or Cutlery-Loaders*, but they both definitely had the pattern of a loud shouting match for about 10 minutes, which would be over and forgotten 2 hours later.

My now-ex's parents were quiet arguers -- they almost never shouted about anything. The first few times he and I had a fight, things got weird. Eventually we each did some adapting, and it was easier for us to argue.

My current partner sulks instead of shouting. This didn't interact well with a few of the habits I still had, but I figured that out fairly quickly. I also learned that when he goes into a sulk, there is nothing I can do to make him come out of it a minute before he wants to, so instead I go about my own business; if it's really bad, sometimes I leave the house for a few hours.

The really potentially destructive pattern my partner has is that once he reaches a certain level of anger/frustration, he will try to throw away objects connected with it, which are frequently things that are important to him. This can get into a vicious cycle, because when he starts to come out of the temper fit, he realizes what he's done and regrets it, and that can throw him right back into the "tossing stuff in the trash" state. Fortunately, this is something I can help with, by calmly pointing out that if he gets rid of X he'll be upset later, and that therefore he should not make that decision right this minute. (Notice that I don't try to tell him he shouldn't throw it out -- that's another thing that's likely to push buttons. I just suggest deferring the decision for a while.)

* I think that when I get to the point of shouting, I'm a Truth-Shouter, but my pattern is a bit different from what abi describes. In my case, it's likely to be that I've tried to say this thing several times and not feeling that I've been heard, so eventually I lose my patience and my temper and shout it instead.

Hmm. I guess I'd classify myself more as a truth-shouter, but leaning very heavily on the "as understood by the speaker" clarification. A good bit of the time, I shout things that I'm terrified are true, things I don't want to be true but that seem frighteningly true, in hopes that the other person will convince me that they aren't true after all.

Which I learned from my mother. Well-illustrated by the memory that drew me into commenting on Dysfunctional Families threads in the first place: After family arguments, my mother would often wring her hands and wail "We're a dysfunctional family!"

This was a genuine cry of fear and despair, I believe. But the effect was that I felt guilty and frightened, thinking that conflict meant my family was doomed, and I would rush to smooth things over or fix things in any way I could. In short, the effect was emotional manipulation.

So I don't like that I sometimes do the same thing.

I guess deep down, somehow, I feel like the other person will listen and take me seriously, if I shout out what I'm scared of as though it's definitely true. And they won't take me seriously otherwise.

This was pretty much the only way my mother ever communicated that something was bothering, upsetting, or worrying her. It seemed like the only way she felt she was allowed to.

I guess it really is a case of "the emotional singularity of an argument, when the rules of discourse change, means that these things are suddenly articulable."

But I sometimes wail to my partner "I'm a failure and you resent me for ruining your life!" instead of "I'm really scared that I'm going to fail at this big thing, and I'm really scared that if I do fail, I won't be able to recover. I'm really scared that you'll be angry at me if I fail. I'm really scared that you're angry with me now because I'm not doing well, and that I won't be able to win back your respect."

I'm slowly learning how to say the second thing instead of the first. But the second one still seems sometimes, in my mind, like it doesn't communicate the real emotional content. Like no one will understand that I'm blindingly, shatteringly frightened, and desperately need reassurance and validation and help, unless I'm shouting and crying.

Which, looking at it that way, seems like more of a cutlery-flinging thing. So I don't know.

I am or at least used to be a variant of the truth shouter, one who used carefully selected excerpts of the truth, ripped out of a years-old context, resulting in as much accuracy as Codemonkey's mam's budget projections.

I can't say for sure that I've gotten better. There's just less worth arguing about as I've gotten older.

This opening post makes me realize that I can't remember the last time I got into a genuine high-emotion argument.

And I'm not entirely sure that's healthy either.

I am not caught up on the old thread (I shall endeavor to become so), so I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the new Sherlock-Holmes-adaptation network show "Elementary" contains a character, Dr. Joan Watson, who in ever single episode models healthy ways to interact with a really difficult, fight-picking individual, including enforcing safe boundaries and staying productive in the face of blatant sexual harassment ... It's pretty subtle about it if you're not looking for it, she doesn't explain what she's doing, but it's amazing.

As a cutlery thrower, I'm amazed at how few cutlery throwers are here.

But it's not the truth throwers who are hard for me. It's the conflict averse. When I fight, I expect pushback and give-and-take and even to be called on things. When someone just curls up and goes quiet--or harder, insists everything is fine--that combination of styles gets toxic fast.

Still haven't found a solution to that. Always come away feeling awful and like it's my job to learn never to fight or nothing eill change. Which doesn't seem right (and I've never managed it), but no clear what is right, when the dysfunctions of eager-to-fight and terrified-to-fight meet.

As a cutlery thrower, I'm amazed at how few cutlery throwers are here.

But it's not the truth throwers who are hard for me. It's the conflict averse. When I fight, I expect pushback and give-and-take and even to be called on things. When someone just curls up and goes quiet--or harder, insists everything is fine--that combination of styles gets toxic fast.

Still haven't found a solution to that. Always come away feeling awful and like it's my job to learn never to fight or nothing will change. Which doesn't seem right (and I've never managed it), but no clear what is right, when the dysfunctions of eager-to-fight and terrified-to-fight meet.

Only meant to post that once. Feel free to delete dupes. Sorry!

Only meant to post that once. Feel free to delete dupes. Sorry!

#7, Lee:

First, thank you for saying that my aversion to having my parents in my space for a while is a reasonable boundary. I am usually told that I'm overreacting; if anybody in my past thought I was being reasonable in insisting on something they must have stayed silent. I will probably be telling myself that somebody outside of my head doesn't think I'm overreacting, more than a few times in the coming months; one of the things I picked up from Captain Awkward is that setting new boundaries in existing relationships always results in pushback. It depends on how much I will just avoid vs. actually draw a line, I guess.

I also don't see how anybody gets from that to "you won't take suggestions" when the suggestions being made are not useful.

That's because the person making the suggestion thinks that it is useful. So *clearly*, I'm just being contrary.

@3: There's also the set of people who can argue coherently, and those whose brains go all soft under emotional pressure. I generally find that yelling or being yelled at automatically triggers tears and incoherence on my part, neither of which helps me to become less frustrated. The sort of people who can remain rational while angry confuse the heck out of me.

I suspect this makes me closer to a cutlery thrower, in that if I shout anything truthful it's purely by accident, but I don't think I have the sustain.

#14 SLJ
I used to be partnered with someone (and their family) who insisted everything was fine, and that the conflicts were all me, that I had an anger problem. It was interesting to me that an abuse forum pointed out that if the "anger problems" only came up with certain individuals, then there was a possibility that the anger-provoker(s) kept "cool" as a way of maintaining superiority, while the other was really fighting against that control and "couldn't win". You're painted as emotionally weak to burst out; the topic of contention is of course dismissed and never resolved. It was a revelation to me.

In the beginning I also saw their aversion to fighting not as them being too scared to fight or wanting to keep the peace (it was peace at my expense, frankly) but that "fighting" did't fit the illusion of everything being OK. Maybe it's fear deep down.

On the rare occasions I could provoke this other party to give back, it was cutlery-throwing from them, truth-shouting for me, and I recognised THAT early on. Except, in the counsellor's office and later, what I saw as cutlery was insisted as truth--even when my memory (and in the event of witnesses, witness accounts) recall differently from the cutlery-thrower's story. Can't win again.

the invisible one @946 previous thread: It's hard to balance setting boundaries with not snapping at people who mean well and have no reason to realize they stepped on your toes. Especially with people who are acquaintances, coworkers or strangers. At least with family and friends, it's legitimate to say that they should pay some attention to your personal quirks and that everyone will be upset over something sometime.

1) it is important to be open-minded when evaluating criticism. "Is this a valid critical point?" and "would the suggested change be worthwhile?" are good questions for doing that. This does not mean you should be easy to push around.

2) Your mom cleaning your bathroom was probably invasive, even if she meant well. Degree depends on exactly what she cleaned up, why, and what she could have found -- bathrooms are full of personal things to snoop through. Someone else scrubbing all the slime and water marks off the shower because they could not stand being next to it might cause me to thank them. Them putting away all my stuff on the counter and consequently reorganizing my medicine cabinet would piss me off.

3) This could have been well-meaning (though perhaps clumsy) encouragement and praise. Or it could be a horrid little jab. Or something in between. It all depends on tone, context, and history. When my mother saids she loves my natural haircolour, it's not supportive, it's an attempt to control what colour I keep it.

4) A lot of those personal grooming comments put you back in the child's position of taking orders and meeting expectations, which is aggravating to anyone and worse for people like us. Also, it sounds like you have a much different hair texture than they do, and so they have trouble judging its status accurately.

5) Your co-worker is probably trying to bond, and perhaps to figure out whether you and she can talk more about clothes and shopping and stuff, or go shopping together. Be gentle when explaining that no, sorry, you don't like shopping but you do like looking good so thank you for the compliments; you'll tell [friend] [coworker] admires her taste. If the coworker persists in expecting you to like shopping after a few of those, then it could be "you don't match my gender stereotypes; I am confused."

And I think your mom might have been rather surprised that you didn't shoot down her new thing. Have other people that matter to her been shooting down her new thing? Or maybe she moves in a circle likely to do so, and cares about what the Joneses think?

I wouldn't take your reaction to the above as meaning you look for things to get upset over. Perhaps you're on the lookout for a certain type of comment because you've gotten a lot of them over the years. It's camoflagued, so it's hard to know if it's really there, or just a trick of the conversational light, and so you look and look, just in case your faculties are deceiving you or you've gone paranoid. I cannot find the reference -- I think it was on Making Light, deep in a thread -- but ancient sagas, probably Icelandic, had been put through some literary and psychological analysis, and the paper-writer had discovered a special type of insult, whose name I don't remember. The key thing is that it did not appear to be an insult to onlookers, because it wasn't in what was said, it was in the unsaid history and context and allusions floating invisibly *around* the spoken words. It had near-perfect plausible deniability, and I instantly recognized it as one of my mother's favourite means of emotional abuse. Back in the day, she could make these apparently innocent comments that would cause me to fly off the handle and make a scene, and nobody ever blamed her because there was nothing in what she said to get upset over, according to them. Are those what your alarm system is looking for?

Can anyone with a better memory find the reference for that kind of insult? I think it would make an excellent DFD thread opener, and that would make it easier to find again.

the invisible one, #18: Re parents being in your space, here's a story. During the months after my mother died, one of the things my now-ex and I did to try to keep my father engaged with the world around him was to have him come in and take care of the cats while we were out of town. (We did a lot of weekend traveling, and strictly speaking this wasn't necessary -- 2 cats can take care of themselves for a weekend if you leave them extra food and water -- but it gave him a feeling of having something to do.) That lasted until the time we came home and discovered that (1) he had had all our garden dug up and a load of topsoil dumped on it*, and (2) he'd left a 10-page handwritten letter criticizing the state of the house. At that point, we took his house key away and never asked him to cat-sit again. He'd transgressed the boundaries and he lost his privileges.

* This was something we'd discussed having done, but not for him to do it without permission, and certainly not without even letting me know about it first!

the invisible one: My mother put away a load of dishes while she was visiting. I'm still mad about it. I was thinking that it was because I'm too territorial about my space, but now I'm starting to think it has more to do with my feeling like I'm being put back in the child position. I think Lee is absolutely right that you get to make the rules in your own space.

My usual reaction to people offering criticism (which doesn't hurt) that I didn't find useful has been to appease until they go away, then ignore them and continue doing it my way - while also making sure that they don't see it again, so they can't criticize it.
Oooo, that sounds familiar. I've pretty good at doing things while hiding what I'm doing. I kinda wish I didn't have that skill set, or at least was able to chose to do hide what I'm doing in the face of advice or not.

abi @0: Hunh. I would like to believe that I'm a truth-shouter, but I think I'm actually a cutlery-loader. Interesting.

With the difference that, in my case, when I'm loading cutlery, my intent is not to blow off steam, but rather to hurt them and make them go away. Which is a big reason for my "bomb container" reaction, described below.

Martin Schafer @3: There are the people who explode and shout and half an hour later are unaffected by the outburst and the people who if driven to yelling will still be stewing about the interaction days or weeks later.

Ack! We covered that in our Interpersonal Communication Skills class at work. It should have been titled Interpersonal Communication Styles, because it was based on one of those personality-assessment tests (a la Myers-Briggs).

Unfortunately, my workbook is at the office, so I won't be able to reference it until Monday.

Laura Eilers @4: ...from on board a pirate ship, of course...

the invisible one @S&T/971: clarifying questions

Those come straight out of the NLP Meta-Model.

[Wall-O-Text warning. Got a cup of coffee and a sandwich ready?]

Briefly (yar har), natural language is inevitably grossly incomplete in describing/conveying experience. It's impossible for an utterance to contain absolutely all the data necessary to accurately describe an experience. One innevitably relies on one's own experience to fill in the blanks when listening to experience conveyed by others. The catch is that, unless (and even when) both parties are highly attuned, the associations evoked within me will innevitably be different than the experience you're sketching over in your utterance.

(As a trivial example, jot down a quick description of your "parents' car", and then compare it to the un-Rot13ed description of mine: Juvgr naq oebja, obkl '70f fgngvba jntba jvgu n orvtr vagrevbe, juvpu fzryyrq ubeevoyl bs fgnyr pvtnerggr fzbxr.)

With people one is around a lot, the details left out can, to a large degree, be guessed at accurately-enough. Where you get into trouble is when you encounter fundamental structural differences, such as abi's example @0.

It turns out, though, that the information that is left out of natural language is systematic, and has structure, which is why we can (usually) communicate well (enough).

The catch is that most people don't realize that they're leaving information out when they're communicating, or that they are supplying information to flesh out communications that they are receiving.

What the Meta Model does is provide a framework for identifying and recovering the missing information. (And, not incidentally, flagging disingenuous behavior.)

(And being a righteous pain in the ass, if one is so inclined. This is termed The Meta-Monster, which is a phase nearly everyone goes through when learning the Meta-Model. Of course, Karma Will Out, because after alienating all of one's friends by running the Meta-Model on their every sentence for two weeks, one innevitably starts running it on oneself, thus becoming functionally aphasic for the two weeks following that.)

I don't know what my WTFblank reaction looks like to somebody outside my head

There's also something called a trance-induction, which is what happens when someone is hit with a completely unexpected stimulus, and simply doesn't have a canned response for it. They literally go into a little hypnotic trance for a few seconds until their brain reboots and patches together a reaction. If they repeat what you've said, that can be a first-cut attempt at parsing the alien utterance.

I feel sure that she'll comment about what it used to look like.

Which means she's looking for something to criticize, and in the absence of a current target, will dig one out of the archives. Not wanting her in your place is a perfectly sane and reasonable reaction. The last time I talked to my dad, my boundaries were still sufficiently green and flimsey that I didn't even want him to know where I lived. No sense of physical threat; that was just an anteroom of my identity I didn't feel safe admitting him to.

And, bless his heart, he caught that. When I hemmed and hawed, he actually said, "Well, you know, there's always the question, 'Establish your need to know.'" (Which instantly got added to my Blessed Tapes For Keeping Boundaries.) (DAMMIT. He was a sharp guy. And I never got to know him, because I didn't dare get that close to my mother. And I didn't realize that until years after he was dead.)

I blank/freeze

Me, too, though recently I've come to an accomodation with that. I finally unpacked that what was going on was basically that my reflexive reaction was so strong that I didn't dare let it out, lest I leave a smoking hole in the ceiling with charred debris drifting down. I've come to visualize it like the lid slamming down a bomb container. It successfully contains my reaction until I'm away from the situation and have cooled down enough to unpack what the problem is, what my reaction is, and make some considered decisions about what I want to have happen next.

This is why it takes so long to process the situation. Still working on what to do after processing finishes. The "bringing it back up" problem. Will report in when I get some useful ideas.

Having now worked out what this dynamic is about, I'm actually okay with it. I've decided that my habit of not going up the flue when I get hit badly by something unexpected is actually a good thing. It's just that I'd like to have some other options available, in addition.

My usual reaction to people offering criticism (which doesn't hurt) that I didn't find useful has been to appease until they go away, then ignore them and continue doing it my way - while also making sure that they don't see it again, so they can't criticize it.

QFT: Lee's "mm-hm" My mother's "I'll take it under advisement," which I hate(d), because it read to me as highly patronizing (but as I get older, I realize her tone came out of her struggling to defend her own shakey boundaries).

My reaction management strategy is very similar to yours. What has changed over time is an increase in my ability to evaluate criticism for usefulness, and a reduction of my concern over being the target of unsolicited criticism.

Who criticism comes from is very much a deciding factor in how I receive it. Relative social status, times the trustworthiness of the critic's judgement, times my fear of them, times my investment in maintaining their good regard, times my own guilty conscience, are all factors that go into the degree to which a criticism will get under my skin.

My usual reaction to criticism that hurts has been to withdraw.

Huh. My impulse (which I mostly manage to contain these days) is to sling cutlery.

WRT comments responding to my suggestion to codemonkey to check Mam's report with Sharon, I obviously forgot to turn up the brightness enough on the <voice=Jacque-snark> sign. Apologies for wasting everyone's time.

Anon4Now @10: But the second one still seems sometimes, in my mind, like it doesn't communicate the real emotional content.

This would be your hindbrain talking: "Ack! Failure! Ostracized! Predators!" Which tends to be a much, um, louder signal. Great for getting the attention. Evaluating realistic situations? Not so much….

seems like more of a cutlery-flinging thing.

Sounds like the wailing of a terrified, abandoned baby…?

Bricklayer @13: "Elementary"

Oo! (Scampers off to Hulu.)

the invisible one @18: I am usually told that I'm overreacting

"But they're your parents! They only want the best for you!"

Wanna borrow my plushy trout?

setting new boundaries in existing relationships always results in pushback. It depends on how much I will just avoid vs. actually draw a line, I guess.

Well, avoidance is not a bad solution. It's just stressful and inefficient. The key is how firm the boundary is in your mind.

I was fascinated watching my friend Matt renegotiate his relationship with his father as he established himself as an adult. Initially, he came across as trying to get his father's cooperation. Eventually, his father's cooperation was irrelevant. Father would push and just…bounce.

thanate @19: The sort of people who can remain rational while angry confuse the heck out of me.

I actually seem to be becoming one of those people. Usually. Well—sometimes. The key lies in separating the reaction one feels from the outcome one wants. And granting the validity of both, even (especially?) if they seem to be in conflict.

Moonlit Night @21: This could have been well-meaning (though perhaps clumsy) encouragement and praise. Or it could be a horrid little jab.

Or both of the above, all stirred together. With a hearty seasoning of anxiety self-medicating on top.

Your co-worker is probably trying to bond

I have a new coworker who is proving to be pleasantly aware. Asked him last Monday how his weekend was. He said, "Sorry, I'm all about the NFL draft picks this week. I know you said you Don't Do Football." He shrugged and grinned. "That's all I got, right now." I saluted, acknowledged his acknowledgement, and we moved on to 3D printing or something.

It's camoflagued, so it's hard to know if it's really there, or just a trick of the conversational light, and so you look and look, just in case your faculties are deceiving you or you've gone paranoid.

Evolution doesn't penalize you for overreacting to the tiger that isn't there.

Addendum: I can't imagine trying to have a conversations about the list of boundaries my parents tromped on because I never verbalized them. Why should you need to tell someone else not to empty your dishwasher? Or to not clean your bathroom?

And of course, the response is 'but I was just trying to help why are you mad!?!?!?!'

On the subject of arguing styles: I tend to need a while to Be Angry, stew it over in my own head and then calm down enough to process what's going on. My dad, on the other hand, likes to circle back with "AND ANOTHER THING!" while I'm still processing.

The worst case of this was the summer after I graduated college; we all went to Hawaii for vacation, and... I think because I took my computer along and made use of it when we were in the condo, he accused me of Doing Vacation Wrong. We were out somewhere when this happened; it's equally possible I just reached my saturation point for the day well before he did.

So we had a spat, and I walked off to let myself process things... and he kept following me and circling back over his points. I think eventually I managed to make it clear that I needed a few minutes to stew.

I also tend to cry as a stress response, especially in an argument. Dad's response: "You do that all the time, you're not taking this seriously, stop it." (At least once there was an "or I'll give you something to cry about"; he didn't follow through, but it was still there.) It was never that I wasn't taking it seriously; it was that I was stressed out and saw no way out other than clamping down and riding out the usually-turned-into-a-lecture.

When my fiancee and I fight, we snap and snipe at each other, I usually end up crying (see: stress response), sometimes she's in a depressive spiral anyway (which never helps matters)... and then we both calm down enough to go over why we had that argument.

#21, Moonlit Night:

I think you're on to something with the innocuous comment + history = "overreacting". I usually describe it as getting poked on a bruise. (Pretty sure that analogy also came from an earlier DFD thread.)

The cleaning came after comments about hoping that I would get some pride of ownership (on buying the place I have now and moving out of the rental), and getting a cleaning service (in previous rental place which was small and crowded and crappy ex didn't help with the cleaning much), and "how can you stand it" on previous visits, and other things about me being a terrible housekeeper. So even though it was the public bathroom and had zero personal stuff in it, it was yet another jab that looks helpful to somebody else.

I don't know if mom's new thing has been getting her teased or not, it's just something she never ever did before that nobody ever expected her to start. I was definitely surprised.

I'd be more inclined to believe the co-worker was just trying to bond if she hadn't phrased it very much in a "see, that wasn't so bad, now you're going to enjoy it, right?" way. That co-worker and I already did lots of "bonding" stuff over running. She was probably the person I chatted with the most at work. (We don't work at the same place anymore.)

tamiki @26: My dad, on the other hand, likes to circle back with "AND ANOTHER THING!"

Sounds like he has a leaky bomb container that never gets washed out, but just festers and builds up pressure instead.

My best reaction to that would be to paste an attentive look on my face, go off to my Happy Place, and wait until he ran down. ::shudder::

Jacque: Entirely possible. I know my dad's parents were champion grudge-holders; I think he learned more from them than he likes to think he did, and this might be how it comes out.

General update: Speak of the devil, not two hours after I mentioned my fiancee's parents hadn't made any contact, the door buzzed with a small May Day box from them. It didn't feel as... wossname (condescending, maybe?) as the Easter card, but we're still not sure how to take it.

#23, Type A Toad: It's a skill I'm also far too good at and I hope I don't have to pull out with the new interest. Unfortunately so far I've been too wary to show him some of the stuff that may provide a route for criticism. But I did play my guitar for him once, mistakes and all.

#24, Jacque: I'm going to read that again tomorrow when it's not past my bedtime. Only thing I'll answer tonight is that my "freeze" on unexpected input is not a bomb container, it seems to be more like mentally running face-first into a wall.

I've fixed the "cultery" thing. Thanks -- it was gone midnight and my typing wasn't so good.

I'm perfectly happy with being wrong, or incompletely correct, in this categorization. There are more ways to slice up the human population than there are actual humans, but I've found this one to be a useful way of dealing with the ones I've met.

Me, I stick with this description because it keeps on biting me. I've gone back over old conflicts where I didn't understand why I said what I did, and found the thing I had to say and couldn't otherwise. And I've got a couple of cutlery-loaders in my life, and have to kick myself because I keep on taking them seriously until I think of that pirate with the fork in his wooden eye.

The argument-averse/loves argument thing seems to me to be a partial overlap with truth-shouters/cutlery loaders. The truths I shout hurt, or I'd have been able to just say them in a conversational tone. But venting anger is, from what I can see, more satisfying at the time than shouting truth. But I could be wrong. I don't wear those shoes.

I'm fight-averse, and I'm married to another fight-averse truth-shouter. We don't have a lot of fights; we mostly manage our conflicts upstream of fighting. I keep having to tell the kids that just because their dad and I don't fight much doesn't mean that people who do are doing it wrong. I'm worried that if their future relationships contain more arguments than ours, they'll fear that they're doing it wrong.

Jacque, #24: One of the things that sometimes happens to me when I'm hit with a totally unexpected stimulus is that my tact circuit cuts out and I go into "in the mind, out the mouth" mode for a few seconds. Usually I've re-adapted before blurting out more than one sentence, but boy, I've come out with some doozies under those circumstances.

"Well, you know, there's always the question, 'Establish your need to know.'"

Oh, that's getting added to my arsenal!

One of the things I've learned about myself is that when I respond with disproportionate rage to a trivial utterance or event, it always means that there's something underneath that I haven't articulated yet. I've gotten better over the years at not letting the rage out (or at least, not all of it) -- but that reaction is a red flag telling me that I need to seriously think about what happened once I've cooled down again. Sometimes the result is worth sharing with the person who triggered it; other times it just lets me know something to watch out for, so that it doesn't hit me amidships like that again.

Type A Toad, #25: Once again, I think we're looking at one of the failure modes of Family Thinking. Would your parents have gone into the house of one of their friends and done those things? Of course not! But they think it's perfectly okay to do it to you, because FAMILY. Perhaps asking them to show you as much respect when visiting your house as they would when visiting [old family friend] might be a useful tack to take.

Why are you mad? Because of the overt lack of respect for you that their behavior shows.

If your parents would have done those things in a friend's house, or a neighbor's house, then we're at an entirely different level of problem. But I don't think that's the case, and that's what puts the lie to the "only trying to help" excuse.

the invisible one, #27: That whole "innocuous comment + past history = overreacting" thing also comes into play WRT racism and sexism, and I think the "being poked on a bruise" metaphor may have originated on one of the feminist blogs.

Oh, dear ghod. I bought a new car, and I took it out to my parents' place so they could see it, and the only thing my father could think of to say was, "Well, try to keep this one clean for a change." So. Much. Rage. It felt like being slapped in the face -- and I'm pretty sure it was at least partially intended that way, though he never would have admitted it. He was all about "the only reason we talk so much about your faults is that we love you and want you to be happy."

Thanks Abi for this useful tool to think with. I'm the daughter of argument averse parents, and I think it may have helped make me into a cutlery loader -- because how does one do this thing? The one time I ever heard them argue I was convinced they would divorce, which they didn't - they are still devoted after 53 years. I learnt to gauge their disagreements by the quality of the silence.
But my first relationship was 15 years with an argument loving cutlery loader and he taught me much, not all of it good. Now I am very happily with a total truth-shouter (now 17 years) and on the rare occasions we argue it is shattering for both of us. This will help, I think. So thanks.

What about people who shout what they claim are truths, and then afterwards say you can't hold it against them, it's your problem for taking them seriously because you know they're just cutlery shooters, every single time? It's clear that these are things which they really think and which really (really!) bother them, but they refuse to deal with them in calmer moments. Is it worth just going along with their denial to have peace?

Truth-shouters who claim it's all forks and knives, huh? Tough one.

Like everyone in denial, they have to understand that there's a problem before they can go on to accepting it. As for anyone standing on the sidelines (or in their range of fire)?

If you're getting actionable intelligence, you can try to action it: take the pressure off the areas that make them blow up; address things not head-on but roundabout; at least know where the land-mines are.

But if someone doesn't want to tackle a problem, you can't make them. Even interventions, the closest thing to making people change, are really about making them want to change.

At a certain point, you have to ask yourself if you want to live with their velociraptors, or if you need to choose otherwise. Knowing what the problem is is the first step to solving it, but it's not a cure-all.

Also, sympathy.

Dash @955/DFD S&T: If you're having problems remembering what you want to talk about once you're there, then absolutely copy your posts from here to show her.

Codemonkey: Just agreeing with everyone else that your mother is not a reliable reporter, regarding what Sharon said, or anything else. Additionally, that Sharon is not qualified to make a judgement on your ability to live independently.

Re. finances of living in your own place, when I was buying my flat, I worked out weekly, monthly and yearly outgoings, then did the necessary calculations to work out my average monthly outgoings, which then let me know how much money I could afford to spend on non-essantials each month. You're in the lucky position (as I was) of having some money in the bank, so you don't need to immediately start adding an expense of "rainy day money" (or "self-insurance"), because if e.g. something went wrong with the car or the computer, you could afford to get it fixed. However, it's still worth starting thinking about putting some money away each month, once you've got the initial costs of moving done.

The first couple of months will be the most expensive, as you stock up on non-consumable (pots, pans, bedding, teatowels etc.) and consumable (washing up liquid, washing powder etc.) essentials for the first time. Just accept that. I recommend looking in charity shops for really simple cookbooks named things like "cooking for students" or "cooking for one".

Also, cheap stuff generally does its job and or/lasts much less well than expensive stuff. My preference has been to buy cheap stuff initially, then gradually get better/more durable items as I see things that I like and as I can afford them. If you don't mind having mismatched stuff, then charity shops are your best friends for getting good quality cheaply (e.g. Pyrex bowls for cooking, crockery, cutlery, even furniture at some locations). Pound shops/99p stores/Poundstretchers etc. are also really useful and you can occasionally get really good stuff at stupid prices (e.g. linen teatowels for £1 each!) - but they're also full of rubbish. Skip-dipping (dumpster diving for those over the pond) can also be profitable - we've gained several bookcases that way, also a folding table, a set of six folding chairs and some basic tools. You may also find that once colleagues know you've moved into your own place for the first time and are short of furniture, they will offer you stuff, on the lines of "my neighbour is getting a new sofa - are you interested in the old one?"

Probably for mentioning the name of a discount store...

I have Turkish Delight for the gnomes.

In my family of origin, to speak truth was to have an argument. Training myself to speak relational truths (like "I need to see more of you", or "I really dislike it when you do that") has been difficult. I tense up and my heart races and I can't just casually mention things, because it's going to turn into a fight, I just know it, I'm going to spend the next ten minutes being shouted at.
When I used to lose my temper as a kid, I shouted things that were at least partly true, but also calculated to hurt. Things that implied my target was a terrible person, but which were in themselves factually correct. I don't like that tendency in myself. I don't like the way things spring to mind that are intended to hurt, instead of to communicate.

In #32, Lee said, "I think the "being poked on a bruise" metaphor may have originated on one of the feminist blogs."

About ten years ago, I was talking to my dad and his girlfriend and happened to mention something my mother had done that week that had bugged me. Girlfriend (who I quite like) said something about not understanding what the problem was, and I kind of sat there wondering how on earth to explain until my dad said, "She's been scratched on that spot so many times." Same general idea.

So Mother's Day is coming up. I can (a) make mild contact with my mother, possibly a "Happy Mother's Day! Thinking of you" email with a few grandkid pictures in it, (b) call her, or (c) ignore the entire situation.

I'm leaning towards (a) or (c) as likely less full of chances for her to turn it around into an attack on me than (b) is. :-/

So far as I know she's still expecting me to get (from who knows where) thousands of dollars to 'repay' her from what I 'stole' from her years and years ago out of my grandmother's accounts. If I took it at all. I have no access to those records without going into a branch in person and trying to get a real person to access nearly-7-year-old bank account statements for me, if they can even do that.

Hearing and witnessing.
When we got engaged, my father gave us each a book on fair fighting, toasted us with "may you have good fights!" and let us know that he was so happy. It took a few years before I realized that although his parents snipped, they never fought. Never. They just .... turned away.
We've had many years to adjust to disagreement patterns, and I'm still grateful for the books. (Lost floods ago.)

My mother hated Mother's Day: she said it was a fake holiday, created by Hallmark and the florists' industry, and she refused to celebrate it. She was steadfast in this all her long life.

Having observed the mishegas and misery other people go through around the day, I am exceedingly grateful to her. Sending good wishes to all those folks who are struggling with what to do.

#24, Jacque:

Thanks for the information. I'll be reading the meta-model for a while, I think, that's a long page.

I'm not sure what your example of the description of parents' car is intended to be an example of. Not sure what I'm looking for in it.

Rebooting the brain... ha. I wonder whether it would be useful or counterproductive to train a few words into that reboot process, along the lines of "did you really just say that?" or maybe "what, what?" ...which is approximately the entire contents of my thoughts when this is triggered by something somebody said.

Looking for something to criticize... thing is, I never got that impression about mom. It seems that it's just this one topic (two? appearance and housekeeping, I guess) and she's fine for everything else.

For evaluating criticism and suggestions, yeah, it depends a lot on who is offering it. Of course, if after consideration I do take the suggestion, I have got (can't remember from whom anymore) a bit of rubbing it in that I had been doing it wrong before because I changed what I was doing. And I'm one of those people for whom one or two instances of hurt is enough to set an expectation of it in future interactions. So even if I think somebody's suggestion is a good one, I'm sometimes reluctant to let them know that I have taken it. (This is pretty variable, some people and some suggestions don't trigger that reaction.)

Bricklayer: Banks should be able to pull those old records for you, yes. Especially if it's been fewer than 7 years; I have a fuzzy memory that 7 years is a legal threshold for saving some sorts of financial documents for people, it may also be that kind of threshold for banks. If you can find the spoons (and I know how hard that is; I just spent the week procrastinating on a phone call to my own bank) it might well be worth going in some time before the seven years runs out Just In Case. (Note: Not a banker, accountant, or lawyer; going on very fuzzy memories of something I was told years ago.)

I know that when there was a small, check-related, human error on my part, that involved coincidences that made it look like an error on the bank's part in my checking account relating to a check that had posted several years before, they were able to pull that record with no problem.

The invisible one @43

Well, how about a cross-cultural example, then?

This article about Viking women's graves and how they've been interpreted suggests that we have brought too much of our own cultural baggage when we look at Viking graves, and thus we misinterpret all sorts of things about Viking women's status.

But it's not just across broad cultural and historical boundaries that this kind of misinterpretation happens.

If I tell you that I went to my sister-in-law's house for Christmas, but I don't tell you everything that happens (after all, I can't: to tell *everything* would require as long as the visit took, even assuming I remembered it all), then you might fill in those gaps based on your own experiences of your own Christmases (assuming you celebrate it, which might not be the case) or your own sister-in-law's personality. You will thus hear a different story than I meant to tell.

I am not sure that that's the sort of thing Jacque meant, but that's what I thought about when I read her post.

Re: arguments. My tendency is to clam up and try to get away.

One of my mentors taught me that when I was angry:

1. Never yell.

2. Instead, drop your voice down to a volume where they MUST listen to you, and deliver your criticism.

3. You have a choice of tone on delivering that criticism, depending on how egregious you consider the situation to be, i.e., a calm statement, a cold determined steely-eyed statement, or a flat out hiss indicating you're controlling your urge to either deck or murder the object.

4. Never, ever insult the other person -- keep the statement confined to whatever ignited your anger.

What this does is make me think before I react...however if circumstances push me past the point of reason (or if it's a situation of getting the same thing over and over) I will probably start firing cutlery...

I TRY to use my anger as fuel to take action, rather than letting the flame consume me.

the invisible one, #43: Remember that appearance and housekeeping are the two primary measures of a woman's value for a lot of people. And that it's not just men who enforce that.

I learned a lot working in payroll, especially how to defuse an angry person, or even just how to be heard by someone who is yelling. Lori, you're absolutely right about dropping your voice. Here are my tactics:

1. Start speaking slowly and more softly. They will match your speed and volume instinctively. It's hard to do when you're stressed, but it really helps calm the entire situation.

2. Do not try to make jokes to defuse the situation. My stand up comedy routine when stressed is legendary. But this isn't the time - if anything, it may just give the person something else to complain about. (I may be the only one who does this, but this was a lesson hard learned.)

3. State facts. Don't speak in possibilities, or things you hope might happen. State what is. Any hint of a possible fix will only spur them to make more noise in hopes of getting that to happen faster.

4. Be with that person, and feel their pain. Use eye contact. Communicate your concern. Apologize if appropriate. "I'm sorry this is happening." "I'm sorry you're so upset by this." Even if you're acting and don't feel sorry at all, use those methods to let them feel heard. Sometimes that is enough.

I feel like I've veered madly off the beaten path, but these were really important skills for me to learn instead of running and hiding in the bathroom and crying whenever I knew I had to call someone who thought we were stealing their paycheck. Using these skills in my job eventually led to using them in my life, and not being as afraid of conflict and fights, not running away when I disagreed with my awesome husband guy, not ignoring my feelings when they didn't point to blissful happiness. Ignoring my feelings just led to complete explosions that weren't appropriate to the current conflict - I became a truth shouter over disagreements about silverware cleanliness. And those kinds of behaviors made me just like my mom. Um, I'll pass, kthxbai.

Mother's Day ads are making me a little crazy, but really, they're just giving me a chance to have conversations with radios and computers. "How do you tell your mother you love her?" says the ad. "I DON'T," says me. Entertaining from the outside. (Brief update: I haven't had any contact with my mom since I wrote her a no-contact-thanks letter in January, except for the birthday card that I sent back return to sender. Just having her handwriting in my house was driving me crazy.)

Speaking of, does anyone want a piano? I'm in the Pacific Northwest, and this piano is an albatross to me. It needs some keys replaced and a tuning, but I gotta get it out of my house. If anyone is interested, they can reach me at my username plus gmail and a dot of the com. Otherwise, it's going outside to be art and possibly target practice.

Sorry if this is too random, inappropriate, hlepy, sarcastic, or otherwise unpalatable. Best wishes to all.

#47, Lee: oh. right. *facepalm*

And this from the person who demonstrated instead of stated that women can do "men's" jobs by doing a "man's job" and making it her own the whole time I was growing up.

Bricklayer @40: I agree with you that (a) or (c) is the way to go. Of those two, I'd recommend doing whichever feels right to you - I'm not going to recommend one or the other because that depends on -your- feelings, not -my- mother-daughter dynamic! If you go with (a), feel free to return here for advice on how to handle any response.

knitcrazybooknut @48: you might want to repeat that piano offer on the OT - larger audience.

Re. arguing/rowing: I'm very rowing-averse. When it does come spilling out (usually when I'm very tired) I'm a truth-shouter. But I'd much rather be able to discuss a conflict while not at that level of emotional intensity. If it does get to serious argument level, then I rarely feel that it's cleared the air, almost never feel better for it. Rather I'll brood about it for days afterwards - feeling guilty if e.g. I've shouted at my husband when really it wasn't his fault but something small he did tripped me over the edge because I was too wound up and too tired; alternatively feeling frustrated for days when someone else fails to listen to my truths during the argument and I've gone through that conflict and it hasn't even helped get me anywhere.

The AVP courses I went on have helped me to handle people better and to understand myself better, so less conflicts arise, but I still feel extremely frustrated after some interactions.

While I find the distinction between truth-shouter and cutlery-loader very useful in dealing with different styles of conflict management (I'm a truth-shouter), I keep reminding myself not to focus on style over substance. Does the person wish me well or ill? Do they have a cruel streak? Are we making a genuine attempt to resolve differences and reach compromises? Do they bring out the best or the worst in me? Do they respect my agency in my pursuit of happiness, or do they (claim to) want the best for me but only on their terms? Is there respect? Do they listen? My patience is near-infinite when I think people are acting in good faith. It's close to zero when their presence in my life is toxic.

I was unkind to myself for far too long. These days, I try not to have double standards: I extend as much kindness to myself as I do to others, and I don't put up with being treated in ways that I would never treat someone else. (This can be through either confrontation or avoidance, whichever of the two is more productive in the long run. Sometimes it's a combination of both.)

abi @35: Thanks. It's hard to accept that you can't actually fix someone else by trying harder!

Codemonkey: if your mam has been telling your sister things like, "You won't be able to have your iPad any more because your selfish brother is abandoning us!" no wonder she's upset. You really need to talk to her yourself: you can't let your mother be the interpreter of family reality, either to you, or of you.

Whoa. My husband once took some nonsensical statement I'd made in anger, and told me that because I had said it in anger, that was proof that it must be true. (I think that interaction pegs him as the truth shouter and me as the cutlery loader.)

My cutlery loading comes out when the other party doesn't seem to hear me, and I'm trying to get a reaction and prove that what I'm feeling matters. If I'm hearing actual grievances being aired, and getting engagement on the argument, I stay much closer to reasonable and truthful.

Well. Having been in these threads under a different pseudonym, and then started using my regular one, I'm going back under a different one.

Turns out I'm rather closer to the Boston bombings than I would have thought. In and of itself this would be stressful and take some processing. Unfortunately, I can't just not talk to my parents until I've done this. The parents are extremely conservative, bordering on conspiracy theorists. They don't know about my connection to the Boston bombings, and they are (as they do about everything) going to view my opinions on the subject as the product of "my idealism and youthful naivete." (I'm in my forties.) I'm just not sure I can take that dismissal right now, but I absolutely DO NOT WANT them to know that I know these people.

I've felt for a while that when I take an emotional hit, I slap a bandage on the wound and keep chugging on. But lately I've been feeling like I'm only being held together by the bandages, that nothing underneath them has really healed, and that every new hit is reopening half-a-dozen old wounds. I've always been insomniac, but now I'm getting 2-3 hours of sleep most nights, which is definitely not helping.

Life at the moment feels like a really bad potboiler novel, in which I am a minor support character. All these awful things keep happening to the people around me, but none of it is about me, and there's no room in there for me to have a reaction to it. All I seem to be capable of is supporting the main characters as best I can, and then going off and shaking when I'm not in the scene. And then I feel guilty because these awful things aren't happening to me, and yet here I am falling apart over them.

On the topic of the thread. I'm tremendously conflict-averse. To the point where in 25 years, my husband and I have had two fights lasting a grand total of less than 20 minutes. I don't even know if I would be a cutlery-loader or a truth shouter, or which my husband is, because it just never happens.

I think I ended up this way because my father is a cutlery-thrower and my mother a truth shouter - but one who doesn't fight fair. So Dad would scream and shout really awful things - and he loses his temper enough to be really frightening - while Mom would take all these things very seriously, and fight back with every awful truth she knew from years of an unhappy marriage. Fighting was never productive, always horrible, and I just learned to avoid it at all costs.

Going Under @54:

Generally, I'd prefer, if you're not going to post using your other-ML name in these threads, that you stick to a consistent pseudonym. It helps people to address their fellow commenters with as broad an understanding of the context of the problem as possible, and it is the best balance I've been able to find between privacy and community here.

Can I unite your previous pseudonym and this one under your current pseud email address? I'm not going to ask to link your truename posts to them, for obvious reasons.

@ GoingUnder@54 - I am so sorry.

When I was about 20, an ex-boyfriend of mine murdered his parents and was involved in a splashy and spectacular freeway-chase-and-arrest combo that made the national news. Telling my parents that I knew that guy is on my list of Worst Conversations Ever. I wish now that I had given myself more time to process the inherent contradictions in a human being who did a terrible thing before I exposed the "slept with murderer" side of myself to my mother. The mourning I needed to do was very emotionally complex, and involved a huge amount of self-doubt and vulnerability. I wish I had taken time to process those feelings before exposing the process to painful criticism and denial. It seemed, at the time, quite important for me to let my mom know what I was going through, and in retrospect, it seems completely ridiculous that I thought telling my mom was any kind of good idea. "Retrospect" in this case was about five seconds.

You may not be able to just not talk to your parents while you process, but are you obligated to talk to them about this?

If you must talk to them about it, it is totally reasonable to script your statements, and some responses to them, in advance, and to arrange ways to protect yourself if they are distressed in ways that are additionally distressing to you.

Going Under and RiceVermicelli: witnessing. I am so sorry you were put in those situations.

Going Under @ 54: I'm really sorry this is happening. I hear you on the "slap a bandage on it and keep going" front. Last June I started feeling like there was air whistling through my pieced together pieces, too. The depression hit hard, and insomnia coupled with exhaustion was one of my symptoms. I had to make some major changes in my life to feel like a person again.

Are you able to get some counseling from someone you trust? It helped me immensely. And keeping your parents at arms' length is a perfectly valid and reasonable protection for yourself.

Time for some script development, I think. Because of my freezing habits I need to develop some canned responses. (I've already done this for my wardrobe choice that gets the most stranger-comment. I have a range from joke to sarcasm to a simple "thanks!" depending on what the stranger-comment is, and it works well for me.)

Easiest one first, since it is rare and doesn't hurt me, only confuses me. On a comment about my weight, and thanks to Lee for the second half that makes it not sound defensive: "that was over ten years ago, why are you hung up on it?" If the response is a protestation of not being hung up on it, then "So why did you bring it up?"; if the response is a protestation of concern for my health, then "you may have noticed that once university stopped forcing 12+ hours a day of butt-in-chair, I was able to get active and have stayed active since. Why, again, are you concerned?" (I am so lucky to be naturally skinny and healthy that this isn't a problem for me.)

Next one, anything at all to do with my appearance or wardrobe choices: "why is this a problem for you?" If the response is a protestation that it's not a problem (with optional but...) then "so why did you bring it up?"; if the response refers to other people thinking I look "bad" by any adjective, then be the best meta-monster I can be (thanks Jacque! the logical nitpickety-ness of that appeals to me and I've actually pulled one or two of those in the past without knowing what it was called) and remind myself throughout that no matter who thinks I look "bad", I'm not trying to impress them. (Except the new interest, and he tells me I look great. So nyah, mom.)

Third one I'm not sure about. The housekeeping question is one I'm not entirely sure I want to answer with Lee's suggestion of "you're not telling me anything I don't already tell myself". It sounds good in theory but it feels like I'm leaving myself open. I don't know that she'll poke at this opening, but I just don't feel up to leaving any gaps in the armour right now. Not sure what kind of responses "why is this a problem for you?" might get and how I could respond to them. This is also the one that isn't 100% pure opinion, even if it is heavily influenced by it.

For comments about being oversensitive/overreacting I have a whole rant in my head that pops up whenever I think about the subject and sometimes it feels like it'll get her to think about it for real, and sometimes like I'm only attacking with intent to hurt, and sometimes like I'm opening the armour too much, and sometimes like there's no way I'd be able to get through the whole thing without my throat closing up and me starting to cry, and sometimes like it'll get the infuriating response of "but just that one time you should have objected". (In short, it's a narration of an incident where I under-reacted, with the jerkbrain telling me that if I object then I'm over-reacting given an out-loud voice in the narration, which mom was present for, which she commented on me NOT objecting, and which involved an actual, objective, indisputable safety hazard that had the capability to take my arm off had it powered on.)

Now to quiet down jerkbrain who is starting to go on about some Captain Awkward stuff from the other side, namely things like "she doesn't need a reason to not like something, why are you pushing for reasons" (actually, jerkbrain, that was "nobody needs a reason to not like someone else", not free license to make comments about how you don't like someone else's choices without being called on it.)

Abi@55, sure go ahead. I don't particularly mind the ML crew being able to pull up previous posts. I'm just being rather paranoid.

RiceVermacelli@57 - I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can thoroughly sympathize with thinking that confession is necessary when its actually a rotten idea. One of the reasons I'm so certain I shouldn't talk to my parents about this is because of previous conversations about a pedophiliac teacher of mine. Seriously bad idea.

What concerns me about talking to my parents is that, being very political animals, they pretty much will bring up Boston, and because they are who they are, they will ignore or dismiss any opinion I have, and right now I'm too raw to take that without blurting out the reasons why I know more about this than they do.

Huh - I guess I'm a truth shouter then, because if I'm not being hurt by the conversation, I would be perfectly safe from unintentional revelations. I just don't shout them, because shouting is BAD is deeply ingrained in me.

the invisible one, #60: I should point out here that the "why are you still hung up on it?" bit is a variety of argument sleight-of-hand. "Why" questions are looking for an answer of the form "because" -- but that implies that you've accepted the premise of the question! In this instance (using it as a defense against someone else's attack) it's perfectly justifiable; but be aware that it can also be used against you as a bullying technique ("Why are you being so disagreeable?"), and in that case your response should be to address the underlying assumption ("What makes you think I'm being disagreeable?"). At any rate, you seem to have this one scripted out very well.

no matter who thinks I look "bad", I'm not trying to impress them

Yes, and this gives you another "why" comeback: "Why do you think it's in my job description that I have to {dress | look pretty} for you?" (The "look pretty" version is specifically for men who give you shit about your appearance. It's also a feminist consciousness-raising concept, because a surprising number of men do seem to think that every woman they see has a duty to look fuckable for them.)

I do seem to be having bad luck with the filters on these threads specifically...

the invisible one @43: Thanks for the information. I'll be reading the meta-model for a while, I think, that's a long page.

It's well worth it, though. I can't begin to tell you how much grief it's saved me over the years. (Not to mention, providing amunition for those times when I decide I need to be a carefully calculated pain in the ass.) (Heh. New sub-category for abi's "truth-shouter:" truth-puller?

"Really? Every single time? In all contexts?? Hmm...?" (toothy grin)

I'm not sure what your example of the description of parents' car is intended to be an example of. Not sure what I'm looking for in it.

Basically, it's a really broad-brush example of "my history and experience is different than your history and experience." "Your parent's car" is the type of "common example" one might use in conversation, and the sort of thing a speaker could assume would evoke a common image in the listener's mind. But unless the speaker and listener grow up in similar places, and are of a similar age, the likelihood that the speaker's parents' car is the same kind as the listener's parents' car is fairly remote. It's not a great example, because most people are at least somewhat conscious of this likely difference. But there are other basic referents that one forgets will be different from person to person.

Take a pertinent example: "Of course your mother loves you!" from someone who's mother did, openly and sincerely, love her. The whole complex of experience around her idea of "mother's love" is going to be completely different than, say, mine, where my mother loved the idea of "daughter," but regarded me as a completely incomprehensible alien who had totally nonsensical ideas about what was appropriate conduct/believes/behaviors for a "daughter."

Does that help any?

I wonder whether it would be useful or counterproductive to train a few words into that reboot process, along the lines of "did you really just say that?" or maybe "what, what?"

Useful or counterproductive for whom? (Sorry, couldn't resist. Like I say, once the Meta-Monster gets invoked, it can be quite the pain in the ass.) Doing so would almost certainly be useful for you. Probably be counterproductive to anyone who depends on your blank/freeze to manipulate your behavior. ::evil grin::

And I'm one of those people for whom one or two instances of hurt is enough to set an expectation of it in future interactions.

This is entirely reasonable and, believe it or not, completely typical.

So even if I think somebody's suggestion is a good one, I'm sometimes reluctant to let them know that I have taken it.

Likewise. For gloaters, it's not about helping you, it's about influencing or controlling you. No sense in fueling this tendancy. :-)

Cally Soukup @44: I have a fuzzy memory that 7 years is a legal threshold

I specifically asked my bank; yes, that's the threshold they quoted me.

Naomi Parkhurst @45: I am not sure that that's the sort of thing Jacque meant, but that's what I thought about when I read her post.

Yeah, that's an excellent example. And one of the core challenges with anthropology, as it happens.

Lori Coulson @46: drop your voice down to a volume where they MUST listen to you, and deliver your criticism.

This is an astonishingly effective technique. It does several things: 1) if the other person is used to/primed for yelling matches, it blows their pattern. (See: trance-induction above.) 2) It, as you say, forces them to listen. 3) It causes them to "lean in" to hear you, which is a more receptive body posture (thus playing their own physiology against their desire to fight). 4) Gives you more control (physiologycally, as well as psychologically) over your own reaction/behavior.

Altogether, very slick.

knitcrazybooknut @48: Start speaking slowly and more softly. They will match your speed and volume instinctively. It's hard to do when you're stressed, but it really helps calm the entire situation.

And if they don't pace you, then start out matching their tone and volume (but sticking to the facts, and keeping the content neutral and fact-based), and then modulate to a slower/softer tone. This, in NLP parlance, is known as "pacing and leading."

(This is also a trick commonly used by law-enforcement professionals to diffuse conflict situations.)

Do not try to make jokes to defuse the situation. … I may be the only one who does this, but this was a lesson hard learned.

Um, no. You're not. And, yes, it is. Ahem. :-)

Be with that person, and feel their pain.

Simply acknowledging their fear is sometimes incredibly effective:

We had a client that was renown for being a pain in the ass, and who would soak up literally hours off time at our office. The second time I encountered her (this had apparently been going on for months or years before I started working there), I had enough data that I realized she was coming back around again and again with the same worry. So I quizzed her a little bit about this worry. Turns out her mother had had an extremely bad experience around this general topic, and the client was afraid of getting into the same tangle. So I read this back to her: "Your mother went through this very bad experience, and you're worried that you'll end up experiencing the same thing?" "Yes, that's correct." "Oh, okay. Well, our office isn't really equipped to deal with that. This resource over here is what you need to bring into play; that's how to protect yourself from this problem." "Oh, okay, thank you." She packed up her papers, smiled, and left. Elapsed time: fifteen minutes. (I had the great good fortune that somebody had called my boss out from his office, afraid of the usual go-round, so he actually saw this go down. Apparently, I'd handled her in record time. And to the best of my knowledge, she hasn't been back since.)

I feel like I've veered madly off the beaten path

Nope. Least, not IMnpHO. (See my comments above.)

Speaking of, does anyone want a piano?

ARRGH! Not appropriate for this thread, but I just went round on this one, from the other side. ::whimper::

dcb @50: AVP courses

Unpack-ez acronym, plz?

Going Under @54: I feel guilty because these awful things aren't happening to me, and yet here I am falling apart over them.

Turns out, PSTD by Proxy is an Actual Thing. (Kids witnessing parents being abused take damage, even though they may not be physically injured themselves, for example.) Just because you're not one of the ones with actual physical injuries, doesn't mean you might not benefit from treatment. And if this keeps happening around you, having heightened reactions make perfect sense to me.

Footnote: It (possibly inappropriately) tickles me that there's a "PSTD for Dummies." Google the title, (and there are free pdf downloads out there.) Also, the "for Dummies" website has a table of contents for this book. (Click on the ToC tab.)

And, for what it's worth, I entirely endorse keeping silent when dealing with people who Should Help But Obviously Won't. No sense in compounding your injury. But do, please, credit yourself with having taken actual, really-and-for-true, damage, and proceed accordingly.

the invisible one @60 Easiest one first

I laud you for your respectulness. This is far more courtesy than I would be inclined to express under similar circumstances. (Maybe this is why people don't generally comment on my appearance. ::evil grin::)

if the response refers to other people thinking I look "bad" by any adjective, then be the best meta-monster I can be

Heh. "Duck season!" One of my favorites is, "Look bad according to whom?" The reactions I get to this are fascinating. My favorites are the ones who sort of blink confusedly, and then plow ahead. It's "obvious" that "everybody knows" what's "good." It simply never occurs to them that taste is relative or subjective. Can you say, "Heisenberg?"

I'm not entirely sure I want to answer with Lee's suggestion of "you're not telling me anything I don't already tell myself". It sounds good in theory but it feels like I'm leaving myself open.

I concur. My impulse would be to say, "well, it's a good thing it's not your responsibility then, isn't it?" Tuning the snide to the desired level, of course.

This is also the one that isn't 100% pure opinion, even if it is heavily influenced by it.

Except that it is. It's your [bathroom], being paid for by your rent/mortgage check, maintained with your [time|effort|supplies], to your standards. Even if you don't maintain it to your standards, that's not justification for your mom's criticisms. That's between you, yourself, and your spoons. It's none of her freakin' business. And her anxiety about it is not your responsibility. This is an excellent excercise in Stuff Ownership.

For comments about being oversensitive/overreacting I have a whole rant in my head

For this one I'd go straight to, "Oversensitive according to whom?" IME there are two directions this can go. One is that they sort of blink, and plow on about you being oversenstive, possibly citing reasons why this reaction is oversensitive. Then it's time for Broken Record: "Because $REASON, according to whom?" "Because $OUTCOME, according to whom?" Just keep responding this way until they wear themselves out.

If they do cite $AUTHORITY, I go to, "Well, sorry, I'm not $AUTHORITY," and prepare to drop it. If they persist, lather, rinse, repeat above, as necessary.

Let me know if you try this, and what results you get.

Going Under @61: they will ignore or dismiss any opinion I have, and right now I'm too raw to take

Oh, dear. I wish you [big, comforting, wonderfulness of your choice]. :-( I haz a mad at them, on your behalf. >:-(

You know, it's an irritating thing that web browsers hide multiple spaces, even in comment windows, so you can't see it when the spacebar has gone walkies. (If that's not the relevant filter, *nevermind*)

Some ice cream sundae, for their lownesses?

Where did that "again" come from, above? That's weird. Unintended Typing is never a good sign.

the invisible one @60: for responses to wardrobe and fitness, I like the approach -- I file it as dragging the nastiness into the spotlight. As best I can tell, it's effective for several reasons. One, it should work even better for someone who also gets flak for being a little socially awkward or slow to catch implications, because it uses those established tendencies for self-defense. Two, it forces the insulter to give up or to openly make the jab, which is usually nastier than allowed by ettiquette. Three, the reaction to Two could force the insulter to notice that other people present don't agree with the assessment of the insultee. Four, the persistent spotlighting risks publicly embarassing the insulter, so they have reason to stop. Five, the style/tone can be varied, to achieve either innocent confusion ("But Aunt, that sounds like you mean ______, and you would never say that"), or that you are onto them and will squish them like a bug every time they try it.

For housekeeping, there is the all-purpose "it's my house." And if repeated, you could try some variation on "why don't we go to the _______ then since you aren't comfortable here?"

Camilla @53: I had been looking at the styles at the top, and thinking neither of them fully describes me, and do people switch styles under strain? And there you are saying that when the way you would *rather* discuss/fight keeps not working, that something goes sproing and you start cutlery-loading out of frustration. That sounds more familiar. You see, early in an argument I still have energy to try rephrasing for better understanding, and to not exaggerate and generalize so much. Most problems we argue over seriously relate to bad patterns, and so it's natural to exaggerate and generalize even when it's not meant unkindly. Later when the argument has gone bad because my partner is being thick-headed/pedantic/cold/all-of-the-above, and I'm worn down but haven't quite given up, I'll definitely be exaggerating and generalizing because I need to get through to him NOW and am frustrated. Next I'll be saying either things that are very true but have all the sharp edges left on, because we've been doing this too long now, or I'll say outright untrue things to stop the argument NOW because I can't take anymore.

Other matters -- Codemonkey has been quiet a bit longer than I'd have expected right now. I'm hoping that means he's too busy packing boxes to have time for internet.

Moonlit Night, re: Codemonkey, I'm worried too.

Been petitioning the Powers to make sure he's ok...

Radio silence is troubling.

#62, Lee: Thanks for the warning about "why" questions and bullying. I will make sure to only use them for defence and not attack. (Hush, jerkbrain. Punching can be used for self-defense.) Also, that reminded me of "why are you so contrary", argh, I've heard that. Sometimes not phrased as a question. Hm, I think "what makes you think I'm doing this (or not doing this) solely to annoy/spite/be different?" would be appropriate there. Really trying to avoid the "why are you/you're so defensive (so clearly I'm right!)" response.

#64, Jacque:

"carefully calculated pain in the ass" is definitely where I'd be using those questions. I don't do the explodey anger thing and when I get upset I tend to cry and choke, so hopefully it will also help me figure out and point out where the other argument is wrong instead of only be able to feel it's wrong and not back it up (and help me make sure I keep myself honest and away from sweeping generalizations). And I'll be a pain in the ass at the same time, knowingly and to the extent I want to be. What is "fighting fair" when accusations of not doing so are frequently used by somebody who doesn't like being called on their own tactics, or finds themselves not winning the way they thought they would?

Oh, "parents' car" was what brought up the different image, not the actual description. I was looking for some different way of responding to the actual description based on different past experience. Yes, I have a completely different vehicle in mind for "parents' car".

"useful or counterproductive" - for me :-)

"And I'm one of those people for whom one or two instances of hurt is enough to set an expectation of it in future interactions.

This is entirely reasonable and, believe it or not, completely typical."

Oh. So "you're oversensitive, that only happened once!" or "you're just looking for something to get upset about, what about all the times when it worked out just fine?" are yet another way of making me think I'm somehow uniquely broken and nobody else reacts like that. (I have interacted with some people who seem to not react that way, but maybe they're hiding it well? Or maybe what I perceive as hurtful isn't hurtful to them, so it doesn't set the expectation of future hurt.)

"So even if I think somebody's suggestion is a good one, I'm sometimes reluctant to let them know that I have taken it.

Likewise. For gloaters, it's not about helping you, it's about influencing or controlling you. No sense in fueling this tendancy. :-)"

How to deal with it when it's something visible and the only way to not let them know that I've done something they happen to have suggested is to not be around them at all? That just sounds bad, because the obvious answer to that phrasing is to not be around that person. But if it's somebody that you like and want to be around except one area where firmer boundaries are needed? (This is why I'm currently not comfortable with mom in my place - but I don't want to keep her out forever.)

"respectfulness and courtesy" - well, as I said earlier, I don't do explodey anger, and I'm pretty sensitive to being told I'm overreacting. This is a way for me to make my point without opening up opportunity for that particular silencing technique.

"Duck season" and "Heisenberg"? The only context I have for the latter is the uncertainty principle, and I'm not sure what you're trying to say with either of them.

The reason I said the housekeeping thing wasn't 100% pure opinion is that it really was dirty, and it was dirty enough to cause me stress and throw up my hands as it being too big of a job and this all without anybody saying anything about it. Now that it's clean it's easier to take care of and keep it clean enough to not directly cause me stress. As much as I like "good thing it's not your responsibility" as a response I'm not sure how to use it in response to a comment (after it was cleaned) along the lines of "did you manage to keep it clean for new interest's first visit to your place?" and "well you have to admit it was pretty disgusting". All I really had for that was a glare and got "overreacting" in return. I agree that my own stress about it is no justification for her comments, but part of why it hurt is that it was true that it was dirty.

"Oversensitive according to whom" doesn't work when she says "I think you're over-reacting" - no ambiguity there about who thinks it. "Sorry, I'm not you" may or may not be useful as a method of getting her to stop, but I can try. Maybe "why do you think I'm over-reacting", but I fear competing "why are you reacting like that" responses. As much as reading "emotions are like axioms, not conclusions" clarified a few things for me, I don't know that it'll have the same effect on everybody. Or maybe focus on the "over-" - "what would be an appropriate reaction?" and see if I'm supposed to smile at hurtful comments or be a doormat or whatever it is she expects but force her to put it in words. Reflecting those answers in a way that points out how they're inappropriate would probably be a lot harder for me to do than the meta-monstering. Did I mention arguing opinion is not my strong point?

#67, Moonlit Night: I have given some thought to making a comment about not inflicting my housekeeping on her if she asks why I decline to have them visit.

On "parents' car": Hell, my sister and I would have two very different pictures of what the car looks like. There's 14 years and different economic circumstances between us.

the invisible one: Ignore if hlepy, but on the topic of being overwhelmed by the mess, would something like Unfuck Your Habitat help? The site-runner (it mostly Tumbles, but there's an actual website now as well) very much advocates doing a little thing just to start, and doing what you can as you can. (I know at least one person on-thread has said before they don't find UfYH's style helpful, so again, ignore if it's not your speed. But it helps me keep from letting the dishes pile up into oblivion, and from getting bogged down by them when I let them go a little long.)

Moonlit Night: I've also been wondering how Codemonkey's doing, especially where the last thread left off...

#70, tamiki: I've seen the UFYH site before. Bossy doesn't do it for me, and neither does photos of what other people have achieved. When those two are presented together I get a strong reaction of "other people can do it why can't you?" which I dislike. (I understand that some people get "other people can do it and so can you! here's how!" from that, but not me.)

My place is not currently a disaster; it's actually fairly presentable right now. The bathrooms were the only drastically stress-inducing part, and my mom got one of them (as much as it was intrusive and unwelcome and sharpened interpersonal stress, it reduced dirt-stress) and I got the other when I had my "I deserve better" moment a few months back. Once those were out of the way, the less-stressful stuff was even easier to bring it closer to the level I like.

And to keep it that way, I've been using the "don't stand around watching while other people are working" that my parents instilled in me to my advantage, by declaring my roomba a member of the class of "other people" and cleaning for as long as the roomba is running, generally once a week. (About 45-60 minutes.) I'm not really a messy person, so that plus putting dishes in the dishwasher daily is enough to stay on top of it. And when roomba beeps its "I'm finished!" code, I empty its dirt trap, clean the brushes if needed, plug it back in, and I'm finished too.

It works for me. :-)

the invisible one: Entirely fair! I like the idea of declaring the roomba 'other people,' I have to say.

the invisible one, #69: I don't know if this would work for you, but could you mirror the "you're so oversensitive" tactic? Wait for the other person to be upset about something, and then throw it right back at them and force them to justify their reaction? This may be too confrontational for you, but I've had good results with it on occasion.

I have given some thought to making a comment about not inflicting my housekeeping on her if she asks why I decline to have them visit.

Oh, outstanding! Do your best to make it in an absolutely neutral tone of voice -- just stating the facts, ma'am. That could actually lead to you having a bargaining chip; if she wants you to invite her over, she has to promise to keep her mouth shut about your housekeeping and her hands off your stuff. Make it clear that There Will Be Consequences if she fails to keep her end of the bargain, and that they will be of the "you don't get to come to my house for X length of time" variety.

and @71: That sounds to me as though your mother is insisting that you conform to her personal standards. Once again, not her house, not her rules. As long as you're avoiding filth that would present health issues and hoarder-level clutter, you have the absolute right to decide how spiffed-up you want your place to be. (Quoth she who has her own issues with housekeeping, TYVM.)

#73, Lee: that might be too confrontational for me, but I'll tuck it away as an idea in case it's needed.

It feels so strange to be planning for what my gut feels like is a confrontation and argument with my mom. In all other areas we get along fine. I have to keep telling myself it's just this area needs boundaries and I'm not starting a fight, no matter what my conflict-averse gut tells me about OMGDISAGREEING *horrors*. Good fences make good neighbours, etc., and while I am planning to be a pain in the ass if necessary I'm not trying to burn anything down.

Lori @68 and Tamiki @70: yes. Codemonkey has a job, a car, and ample money, so he should be ok on the material world front, especially if he listened to us all about being mildly paranoid about his money and papers. But my feeling is that his situation hit the get-out-or-back-down breaking point before anybody was ready, going by the last few encounters. Especially if Mam had been agitating his sister, which I think is very likely, whether by sheer contagion or on purpose. I see a few categories of scenarios.

Scenario 1 is relatively trivial, like his mam smashed some IT gear or cancelled the internet to punish him and cut him off from us bad influences. (I'm a bad influence! I always wanted to be a bad influence! I've even got the leather coat for it now!) That explains radio silence but isn't too bad since she's probably too nontechnical to know to destroy the hard disk.

Scenario 2 worries me. His mam may not be able to have an apoplexy on demand, but she's been working herself up so much that she could have or have had one anyway. Or agitated his dad or sister into an equivalent fit. Which further demonstrate the problem if so, but it'd be awfully hard on Codemonkey's resolve, and could tip the scales, especially if several of them gang up on him.

Scenario 3 is the lucky one, where he's busy packing because his new flat agreed he could move in early. Or at least staying at a friend's or a hotel because his mam went ballistic when he didn't back down. If so, I hope he gets his books and other precious things out safely.

Guys, it's also possible that Codemonkey is feeling bossed around and boundary-violated by our conversation. A bunch of us (me included, and I'm sorry) were pushing him pretty hard mid-last week.

Whether or no, discussion of him in absentia, particularly speculation about what's up with him, is inappropriate. It's one thing to say we wonder where he is and hope he's OK. But let's draw the line there, shall we?

Going Under @54: Sympathies. That's a difficult position to be in (re. Boston bombings). And @61, really difficult re. your parents and likely discussions; sorry I can't think of anything that might help: except, I'm listening.

Re. the rest of @54, also sympathies. In addition to what Jacque said @64 about PSTD by proxy, there's the simple fact that being supportive for other people takes spoons and can lead to your needing outside support as well. I know that when my father died, it was the support I had from my now-husband which enabled me to give support to my step-mother.

Since you're having problems sleeping, is it worth seeing if you can get something to help you to sleep, short term? Just to catch up a bit?

the invisible one @60: Those ready-prepared responses sound great!

Jacque @64: AVP = Alternatives to Violence Project. They started off doing programs in prisons but now work with people all over the place. I went to try to learn better how to cope when people were being angry at or near me. I learned a lot and would recommend them.

the invisible one @69: "when I get upset I tend to cry and choke" Yes, me too. I've been able to unpack the reasons why, for me, and can share if you think that would be helpful.

Codemonkey, thinking of you. Hoping things are going well, or at least tolerably.

Going Under's remark about being held together by bandages made me think about what's been going on with me, lately. (TL;DR trusting the wrong people really sucks sometimes.)

I propose the concept of "emotional scurvy." One day you're thriving, then your environment changes and you're lacking something essential, and all your old wounds come back to haunt you.

Not really a dysfunctional family thing, but I had virulent insomnia last night due to my Tapes running at high volume and I need to open a metaphoric vein.

I just had the novel experience of being a bridesmaid for a woman who broke my heart (quite some years ago). People move on, and we wouldn't have suited. But I was badly blindsided by how completely erased I am from the official public version of her life story. Evidently it was only ever and always [insert name of groom] , even during the years when she and I were dating. I did make it through the reception without crying by dint of a couple of long walks around the block.

Kind of makes you doubt everything you ever thought people felt about you.

The good news is that Friday's outing wasn't cancelled after all. I suspected she was probably bluffing -- she often does about such things -- but just because she bluffs about minor things like that, doesn't mean that major threats are also bluffs!

I also tidied up the main cupboard in my bedroom yesterday and decided to get rid of about 24 cubic feet (or 0.75 m^3) worth of no-longer-wanted books and magazines, and my mother didn't try to make me hang on to any of them.

The bad news is that she's now keeping all my bank stuff in her own room, except for the bank card relating to the account where my salary is paid. She hasn't hidden it away (I can see it just going in to the room), but there's no way I could possibly take it out of the house undetected. One thing I could possibly do is sneak in when she was in the bath and steal a few cheques (as they could possibly go un-noticed).

She'd always kept the documentation for my two lesser-used accounts (which contain the most money) in her own room on the grounds that I lacked drawer space to store them, but today (even after telling her that I'd tidied up my drawers to make room for them) she refused to return them, saying that the experience of the past week demonstrated that I couldn't be trusted with them.

Probably for excessive self-pity.

Codemonkey @81

You are an adult. It is your money. What your mother is doing is not only wrong, it could be construed as *theft*.

Get all of your documents and get them out of the house, if you possibly can. Please. It's a very short step from her taking them from you "for your own good", to her hiding them where you can't find them, or locking them away where you can't get to them.

Codemonkey: Call the cops. That's theft. Also, possibly, false imprisonment. She's gone to war with you.

Codemonkey, #81: That's a HUGE red flag. Your mother has absolutely no right to keep you from having access to YOUR OWN FINANCIAL RECORDS. Please, please go in there and get them -- ALL of them -- and take them somewhere outside the house that's safe. At the very least, take them to your office until you can get a safe-deposit box. This is an obvious attempt to keep you effectively imprisoned by controlling your access to the resources you'd need to escape.

Saying that "you can't be trusted with them" would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. What she is clearly demonstrating is that SHE can't be trusted with them.

This is obviously going to get very nasty indeed, and I'm sorry you're going to have to go thru that. But we're all pulling for you.

Also do you have anyone you can stay with right away? Friends from work? Your old teacher? This is such a huge red abuser flag, I can't even. What will she stop at to keep you from escaping? Who can say? Will she destroy your computer, or sabotage your car? These things happen when abuse victims try to leave.

a heart in hiding @84: Codemonkey: Call the cops.

And what would that achieve exactly, other than saddling me with my sister's care, forcing me to quit my job?

Codemonkey -- while I agree that your mam has definitely stepped over the line, don't call the cops it isn't worth it.

I do agree with those who are telling you to get your financial stuff and personal papers, and get them out of the house. At this point, you may just want to pack a bag, grab the documents, take your laptop and leave.

She's not just a snoop, she's trying to maintain her position as your jailer -- what she is doing IS abuse, right down to making threats.

Codemonkey @81:

Agreeing with the others. This is outrageous: controlling, abusive, and completely out of line. There is no excuse whatsoever for it. If your name is on the account, those things are yours, not hers.

You are an adult. British law says that you can indeed be trusted with your own banking materials. Furthermore, you're an educated, employed adult. It's completely outwith the bounds of acceptable behavior to say you cannot be trusted with your own financial possessions.

If you want someone from your circle of friends to confirm this, check with your former teacher. I'd suggest you reclaim your bank materials and store them at your office or on your person. If she hides them, change your mailing address to that of your office and get a new chequebook sent there.

I mean for them to make her give you your stuff so you can leave -- the police get called all the time to intervene in domestic disputes, it doesn't mean she's going to prison. Living in a lower-income block of flats in a lower-income neighborhood, I can tell you that it happens a lot.

Sometimes the couples end up back together, after, which never ends well either.

Agreeing with those who recommend getting those records out of her control, Codemonkey. Which means out of the house, not just into your room. She has indeed crossed a line here. I could almost think she thinks of you as being in the same situation as your sister -- which you are not.

Code monkey @90: Rather than confronting your mother over the bank documentation, might you consider going directly to the bank on Monday and having further docs and a new set of cheques issued directly to you at a post office box? Or at least have your statements sent directly to you via email (where I live, banks are increasingly encouraging their customers to go paperless in any case), though you'd probably need to get the cheques sent somewhere other than your current home address. The bank may also be able to directly issue you a few cheques that you can use immediately should you need them -it's worth asking if this is possible.

I am assuming here that you are the sole signatory on those accounts. If not, that's a different issue that you would also need to sort out at the bank ASAP.

And for what it's worth, I'm not sure either that bringing police into the mix at this time would help you achieve the outcome you're seeking. Your mother's behavior is clearly unacceptable, but I'm not sure that getting the police involved would help you get to where you want to go. (Speaking as someone who has had experience with tactically engaging the justice system in the past to help sort out difficult family situations)

As always, ignore if hlepy.

Codemonkey -- If you cannot get the financial papers away from her, go to your bank, explain the situation to them, and get the money moved to a new account. You can make arrangements for a safety deposit box at that time.

One way or another, you do need to get access to your money out of her hands. Also, have your statements (if you still have them mailed to you) sent to your workplace rather than your parents home. You can change the destination of the statements once you're in your new apartment.

Codemonkey:

Agreeing with what others here have said: this is classic abuser behaviour. She is taking steps to maintain her control over you.

Unless it's different in the UK, getting a new bank card should take about 10 minutes at your bank. Once you have the new one, the old one will be deactivated. You can choose a new PIN at this time as well.

I say: get your papers, laptop, and go.

Codemonkey, I understand. For your entire life your mother has been in charge. You've trusted everything she's said. You've obeyed all of her rules. That's a hard habit to break.

But she has absolutely no authority, legal or otherwise, to confiscate your banking papers. Just walk into her room and take them. She can't stop you unless you let her.

Once you do it though, get those papers out of the house immediately. Take them to a safe place as others have suggested.

For general information:

Another thing that is possible (at least here in the U.S.) when leaving a situation is to get a post office box, which gives one a private new mailing address for all sorts of useful things like financial papers.

Maybe (even just threatening) to involve the police is too much too soon. But she stole his property in order to keep him prisoner. Yes, it's playing hardball, but she struck first and disproportionately. He tried talking to her, and after her gross attempts at guilt and manipulation didn't work, she jumped to an illegal, immoral act to physically prevent him from leaving. This is not someone who can be reasoned, or trusted with anything. This is not the action of a reasonable person who can be relied on to behave within acceptable social parameters, even.

Codemonkey, my fear is that whether you sneak your stuff out while she's in the shower, or do the official end run around to get the papers and funds transferred (abandoning what cash she has already taken) and just leave, she will call the law on you as a thief. Why not? She's demonstrated how dishonest, malicious, and mercenary she is -- and you've told us again and again that she sees your inheritance and work money as rightfully hers!

I mean, does anyone think she's likely to just give up and say, "I always wanted a sewing room" ? This is a drastic escalation on her part.

Codemonkey, one other thing: what your mother is doing here is known in the trade as "escalation". You've questioned her authority, so she's now taking stronger steps to re-assert it. Calling the cops won't do a thing but make it worse after they leave. The only thing you can do to keep it from hurting you is GET OUT. And at this point, I agree with the people who are saying pack a suitcase, grab your important papers (not just your bank papers, but also things like your birth certificate and the title to your car) and your laptop, and leave TODAY even if you have to rent a room in a hotel for a week or two while your tenancy application goes thru. At this point you can no longer trust your mother not to start destroying your belongings in her attempt to keep you from leaving.

BTW, you didn't say -- you did get that signed and submitted, I hope!

I have lemon pizzelle and Belgian beer...

Codemonkey, what your mam is doing with your bank papers is one of the things I had hoped it wouldn't come to. She's confiscated your wallet, supposedly for your own good, and in a way that suggests she believes you are a child or incompetent. If she'll do that to a competent adult, then it is hard to guess where she will stop. Please safeguard your financial and legal things, pack a bag, and leave.

What I'd do: first, without delay, either cancel the cards or change the PINs. Then do whatever else is needed to safeguard the accounts and other important documents *immediately*. Take them from her room, go get new ones issued, doesn't matter so long as they are picked up personally or sent somewhere safe. Move all your own money into accounts your mother has no access to, and tell the bank manager this is intentional. Get all these critical things under security that your mam cannot unlock or talk her way past.

One of the only effective, concrete things your mam can do to keep you in her house and under your control is to remove your access to funds. And that's *exactly* what she's trying to do. That's why we're all urging you to take it very, very seriously.

Please also safeguard your communications, transportation, and employment/income. What I mean is to do things like keeping your cellphone with you and charged so it can't go missing or be rendered inoperable, and keeping your car keys on you. You should probably also call work and let them know that if they get any calls from someone other than you about your work status (e.g. taking leave, having an illness or emergency, or handing in your resignation), that they should call you directly on your cell to confirm.

If your mam escalates this any further, please do not hesitate to call in social services or the police.

Codemonkey: Holy bananas. Get your financial and other vital documents out of that house. If you have weekend access to your office building, I'd take them there straight away in that position; your mother's liable to go through your car for them as soon as she sees them gone.

For a spot of perspective: As toxic as living with my parents was, they never demanded control of my money (that I get a job that would pay me better, yes; that they control it, not so much). The only reason they had guardian access to my savings account after I turned 18 was because I was going to college far from home, and that way if I needed emergency funds they could get them for me; when I moved back in, I moved the account to my name only.

What your mother's doing is frankly ridiculous and completely out of line. Get your papers out of that house, get yourself out as soon as you can.

Heather Rose Jones, #80: Small wonder you're feeling bruised. It makes me wonder why she even bothered to ask you to be in the wedding! Be extra-nice to yourself for the next few days, and have a virtual hug if you want one.

Adding my voice to the advice given to CodeMonkey.

It is hugely notable to me that your Mam, who claims to be protecting your safety by having someone go to the ATM for you, so that you won't get mugged there, is sufficiently casual about your safety that she has arranged for you to drive to work every day without means to pay for a tow in case of accidents, or buy gas if the need arises outside of an anticipated schedule (as you might well need to do if weather or traffic is bad). Genuine, rational concern for your safety would make her want to assure you were never stranded on the highway. There are lots of ways to limit your chances of gettimg mugged without introducing fantastic new sources of risk.

If you don't know where your birth certificate is kept, don't waste precious time hunting - your driving license should prove your age, and recording authorities will issue you a new birth cert on request. Take the financial papers, your phone and laptop, and your bank card, get into the car and go.

Seconding what most are saying to Codemonkey.

Please, please, please get your financial and any other paperwork out of there. I'd advise transferring the accounts to new ones tomorrow, as well, and list someone else for emergency contact information/next of kin. Perhaps a co-worker or supervisor at work?

I also think you should keep your cellphone charged and on you at all times; likewise, hang onto your car keys and bank card*. Do you have an emergency contact for work? If you do, call or leave a message ASAP, to disregard anything they'd hear from your mam. Likewise, let the bank know that tomorrow morning.

My instinct also says to get out of there, now, with whatever you can pack. She's already escalated, horribly. I fear the next step would indeed be contacting your workplace and saying you're ill, contacting the bank and saying you're no longer responsible for your actions.

--g, worried

*During the year+ I was in the shelter system, I slept with my purse, containing those things, under my pillow. It's not paranoia when someone is actively targeting you to steal these things.

Codemonkey - what everyone else has said. She _will_ start destroying your things. She _will_ drain your bank accounts. Get those documents even if you have to call the police to do it and leave NOW.

Codemonkey -- she may not start destroying your things, or draining the accounts. But you are better off if you remove the temptation, because I believe she will be tempted to. And her record around temptations, with you, is a bad one.

Codemonkey, regardless of whose advice you follow, please remember that this is not your fault. This is not something you caused. This is not something you could have avoided by being careful enough or polite enough or gentle enough. This is not something you can prevent by being a better person. This is not your doing. This is not your fault.

You are not doing something easy, nor is your path without obstacles. You are a capable adult with many resources at your disposal, and that is not accidental-- you have made yourself capable and you have harbored your resources. You will get through this. You are not doing something shameful. You are not betraying your family.

You can do this. What your mother does is a separate issue. What your mother does is not your fault.

@Codemonkey: It really sucks that your mam is escalating. I know how much you care about your family and their well-being, and I can't imagine the amount of stress you're under at the moment.

I want to reiterate, like many other people have here, that all of your choices have been reasonable, healthy and sane. I hope you're able to keep trusting your judgement and moving towards a life that makes you happy, no matter what she throws at you.

What you're doing takes a tremendous amount of strength. I'm rooting for you.

Thank you Diatryma @107 and Merricat @108. I think what you both said bears repeating, and I wish I had been better at saying it as well. Codemonkey, you have made tremendous and wrenching changes to your thinking and behaviour already, to be healthier and happier, and to help your family be so as well, and you are very strong to be making so much progress so fast. It hurts like hell to be making some of these shifts even though it's a relief too.

It is hard, Codemonkey, when writing to you to focus on the kind and good and encouraging, because much of the situation you’re in is literally the stuff of my nightmares, or worse than it. My commonest recurring nightmare, with sweat and tangled sheets, is to be back in my parents’ house (usually a dead-end room), trapped trying to complete some endless task that cannot be completed, whether because things keep going wrong or a parent cannot be satisfied. The nightmare never ends left to itself; I have to wake myself up and stay awake a little while to break out. Your and my mothers are too much alike and I can too easily go back to the bad old days in my head. Right now your mam is behaving so badly as to fulfill some of my worst fears about how this would play out. Her ploy to control your money is viscerally terrifying to me, because having your own money is *the* key to getting out (in my parent's dictates and in plain old common sense) and I can’t think of any worse fate than not getting out of there. This is why I’ve been so pushy about you taking precautions against the worst possibilities and moving out ASAP. Many of your posts have me chanting "leave leave leave leave leave..." under my breath in reaction. I am so sorry that your mam could not let you leave the nest gracefully, which was what you needed and would have been far better for her and your dad and sister too.

So when I empathize with you over how your mam is behaving, especially anything where she tries to keep you stuck, I feel sick and terrified. When I think about the circumstances that have pushed your mam into being the person she is today, I realize that my mother was two bad rolls of life’s dice away from being your mam, and me perhaps being in your situation, which is a frightening thought too. Knowing what drives and hurts my mother, a husband who can’t or won’t reliably provide or help run the house, and a child with a serious disability, would be two of the worst things in the world for her and everyone in easy reach. Because of that understanding, I have great pity for your mam, but also despise what's she's doing to all of you including herself. So I feel very strongly for all of you, and that causes me to be forceful about how to interpret events and deal with situations. I can never go back and help my younger self, but I hope I’ve been helping you.

Moonlit Night @100: She's confiscated your wallet

No she hasn't, and I still have a card in my money tin (needless to say, from now on I won't be leaving the key at home when I go to work) for an account with about £20k in it.

ricevermicelli @103: It is hugely notable to me that your Mam, who claims to be protecting your safety by having someone go to the ATM for you, so that you won't get mugged there, is sufficiently casual about your safety that she has arranged for you to drive to work every day without means to pay for a tow in case of accidents, or buy gas if the need arises outside of an anticipated schedule (as you might well need to do if weather or traffic is bad). Genuine, rational concern for your safety would make her want to assure you were never stranded on the highway.

I have breakdown assistance cover with the RAC as part of my car insurance, so "being stranded on the highway" isn't a worry, and I keep about £50 in my wallet routinely (along with a few hundred in my money tin). My mam doesn't control my access to money that stringently!

Codemonkey, why leave thay card at home at all? Why is it not in your wallet or your pocket?

I carry the bank card for my checking, and I think most people do the same. The way it is now, your Mam doesn't control your access "that stringently", but she does control it, and she could tighten the strings at any time.

Codemonkey, here is a pattern I have noticed: your mam does something that makes you wonder. You describe it here. We collectively say OH MY WORD THAT IS NOT OKAY. You back away and blame yourself for exaggerating and making her look bad.

This has happened many times. I would like to ask you to consider the fact that your instincts have *always* matched ours. When you feel moved to ask us if your mam's behavior is within the average, it NEVER IS. And her behavior is getting worse. Please get your stuff and GET OUT.

Moonlit Night @100: She's confiscated your wallet
Codemonkey @109: No she hasn't, and I still have a card in my money tin (needless to say, from now on I won't be leaving the key at home when I go to work) for an account with about £20k in it.

I was speaking figuratively about the wallet, but not knowing exactly how things are arranged, it was easy to jump to the conclusion that she was trying to take away all your access to money, not just some of it. It is good to hear that your money tin has a lock, and she didn't try to take everything, but it is still very very bad that she did it at *all*. It should have been an unthinkable option.

I normally carry my bank and credit cards when outside the house, and haven't had any problems after one short spate of losing my bank card. Then I noticed that I never lost my bus pass, got a wallet that holds both, and that solved it.

Re: arguing, I've had learned helplessness conditioned into me so well that I have never once won an argument, even on the rare occasions where I am objectively in the right and the other person is objectively in the wrong. These are the things I do when people try to advise/lecture/argue (and yes, my subconscious treats all of those things the same):
- Try very, very hard to focus on something behind the person talking, so it will at least look like I'm paying attention. I could tell you every detail of the clock that my parents used to have in the living room.
- Burst into tears
- Attempt, rather incoherently, to argue my case. This never works, because I can't ad-lib defenses and have an extremely poor track record of being able to predict what other people will say about something.
- Run away ASAP, generally to a quiet room.
- Incessantly apologize to the point of annoying the other person, generally in the same tone as "Have mercy! Please don't lock me in a medieval torture chamber!!" would be uttered by the average person. And yes, I will apologize for apologizing too.

What this means is that I tend to lack the ability to shout truth or throw cutlery, and basically end up flailing around and stressing myself out further.

@Codemonkey: DANGER, WILL ROBINSON, DANGER. You need to Get Out NOW. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Get as much stuff as you can away from your mam TODAY. Be in another place (co-worker's house? aunt or uncle?) by the end of this week. We are begging you here. Everything I've read that your mam does is off-the-charts levels of Not OK. It is high time you left.

Codemonkey, go to your bank (or perhaps to another bank, in town, where people won't know your mother) and ask one of the bank officers whether they would agree with her behavior (confiscating your documents and your money tin). Don't try to explain it away or excuse her, just lay out what she's done and ask if that's normal behavior for a parent whose adult child lives with them.

You may not get the same level of OMG BAD that you did here, because unless the bank officer you talk to has experienced a bad family situation they may not recognize how bad that is -- but I'll bet you get something to the effect of, "That's really weird, and not something I'd do to my child."

Lee @32: when I respond with disproportionate rage to a trivial utterance or event, it always means that there's something underneath that I haven't articulated yet

Dear gods, yes. This describes 80-90% of my hostile teenage interactions with my mother. I'm still working on that articulation.

(Hi, all! Catching up, witnessing; finals ate me for a good long while.)

I think that I am an argument-averse truth-shouter, if only because I imagine that if I were a cutlery-loader there are things that I would have said to my mother. Also when trying to think about "mean things I have said to people" they mostly turn out to be things that are true, but are things you Don't Say to people you like, which reminds me of a thing I want to talk about because it is unpleasant background noise in my brain.

There was a guy I considered a friend for a while; he was recently kicked off campus instead of being brought up on charges of sexual harassment and/or assault. I figured out, at some point, that he was making himself emotionally vulnerable to me so that I might pity him and eventually sleep with him (he actually cited this xkcd in the context of "not wanting to be that guy". He was totally being that guy, but if he'd been my type physically, I shudder to think what might have happened). There were tons of red flags I only recognize in hindsight; one I sort of got at the time was, he was complaining about how none of the girls he'd dated were awesome like me, and got very offended when I suggested he try dating someone with self-esteem. Anyway, I recently hung out with the ex of his who is a friend of mine, and found out what had actually happened between them. And was horrified. I know I can't change anything now, and if he ever tries to talk to me again (which I think he won't) I plan on telling him to go away and never come near me ever, but it still makes me feel awful to think about.

The_L @114: I am never able to ad-lib defenses either. :( In the best-case scenario, it's a low-stress situation and I'm able to talk my way through to figure out what I'm actually trying to say, but still feel like a fool.

Codemonkey: Witnessing. I hope things reach a place of stability reasonably soon.

Jacque @something: 'NLP' always makes me think of 'natural language programming', as in the field of computer science that is loosely connected to AI.

Codemonkey -- still pulling for you, and hoping you get away from her soon. Your situation is very trigger-y for me, so I beg forgiveness, since I'm sure I sound crazy when I post.

Please remember, if there is anything any of us can do to help, we're more than willing. Even if we don't live in your area, many of us will have friends near you, who would be willing to help.

Heather Rose Jones, 80:

Wow, that's just amazingly thoughtless. I can't imagine what must have gone through her head to have her mentally erase what must have been a huge part of her life, not to mention denying you a part of your life.

The whole thing is just sad. I'm really sorry.

@abi, thanks for the new thread and the topic, arguing is unsurprisingly a touchy topic for me as well.

(oldthread, #805) Jacque, I'm not sure whether I'll get back to it. I had to sit back for a while after I noticed that the conversation ended up in a totally different place than I needed it to be. As some said upthread, a couple of old bruises got poked and currently I have no spoons to pick it up again.
Could I ask you to phrase your questions to me as questions in future? I had trouble dealing with what to me read as kind order or assignment, especially since I hadn't agreed to be lectured. I'm fairly certain that you didn't mean for it to come across this way and even though I know I do fail at conveying hurt or emotional impact, please know that this is for hard for me to speak about and important enough to try anyway.

As for this thread, I argue pretty rarely, but when I do I'd say I'm a clear-headed truth-speaker (shouting is out, because of family history). If I think I'm too angry to argue I won't address the topic until I'm sure I can state what bothered me in a more level-headed manner. I do have trouble with arguments when someone tries to 'win' by raising their voice or displaying agressive body language and try to disengage in these situations as soon as possible.

(abi, if I've used a pseudonym here before, can you connect that with this? I don't recall what I've done or not done. Stuff that I've posted as me can stay out in the open. Thank you.)

Extended core dump follows. Maybe you guys can give me some insight as to where my reactions are coming from, or possible ways to deal with this. I know that just writing this out is helping.

Not family, though family issues must be driving my reactions. I think.

I saw my doctor last week. Zie will soon be my ex-doctor; I've already contacted my insurance, and I can't change providers until next month.

I've had some severe (though not life-threatening) medical stuff going on for over three months now. In this last visit, zie flat-out lied and said there was no further testing to be done and no possibility whatsoever for treatment. (Things on the Mayo Clinic website say otherwise). Zie tried to make my lack of improvement my fault - when zie has done absolutely nothing to help - and strongly suggested that the new problem is actually just one of the old problems. Zie says I'm non-compliant and not invested in getting better, because I won't change from my current therapist to one at zir office (who doesn't have training in the specific therapy I'm getting). (When you've got a therapist who fits and you can see the improvement, you don't change). Zie wants me to go off certain medications, one of which I must take to avoid worsening the neuropathy, with a rationale of "these may be causing your additional pain" - when, in fact, those medications are helping me manage the pain.

I could go on; yes, there's much, much more. Once I've switched to NewClinic, I will request for myself a copy of my records, because I do not trust zir to have presented things honestly. NewClinic will, of course, get those records, as well as those from other doctors and specialists going back about ten years, but I realized yesterday that I need to see them myself. (I'm not exactly young, and I have not ever had to deal with a doctor like this before.)

It took me a couple of days to tease out some of this, and more is still bubbling to the surface.It caught me off-guard, and I don't handle that well. I can't articulate anything if I don't even know what the thing is that I need to articulate. Anxiety disorder, mixed in with some other diagnoses, seems to make it impossible for me to answer anything unexpected.

Which goes back to conflict styles; mine is avoidance. If the issue is important enough, I can sometimes nerve myself up to quietly and factually state my feelings, but that's as far as I can go. If that doesn't work, if very quiet, rational truth-telling doesn't get through to the other person (not convince them, necessarily, just be heard), all I can think is "get away, now." I'm much better than I used to be about this (thank you, [therapist]!), but I still want to flee, after I've frozen.

I really don't have a handle on why I'm so avoidant, though. This situation with the not-quite-ex-doctor, and this topic, have me wondering where that comes from, and why.

Saw the counselor today, and even though we didn't directly discuss much of the info from my posts here (I gave her the link to my readall... it does mean she might read what I post in the future, but if I can trust the Internet with it I can trust her with it), it seemed like a helpful session. She agreed that my blaming myself rather than others when others are logically at fault is unhelpful. She also agreed with you guys that I should look into getting a different doctor because my current one isn't terribly sympathetic, and suggested that I see a psychiatrist. Finally, a way to suggest these things to my mother that isn't "Well, I was on the Internet, and..." Great, right?
Of course it's not that simple. When I mentioned the doctor/psychiatrist suggestions to my mother, she first said that we couldn't get in to see a psychiatrist before I leave for abroad (likely, but still disheartening), then that "psychiatrists now only prescribe medication" and that getting medicine from my GP is equally good and more cost-effective than visiting a psychiatrist (I have a feeling there's more to psychiatry than she's giving them credit for, and I don't think my GP can be as useful as a specialist), that she didn't really see the problem with my doctor but MAYBE we could LOOK INTO seeing HER doctor (uncertainty + doctor biased towards mother already = ???), and that MAYBE we could see my neurologist (the whole idea is seeing a relevant specialist, and a neurologist is less relevant than a psychiatrist would be).
I mentioned way back in my first post here that I thought I might have Asperger's, and I mentioned this to my mother as well. She agreed that I have some traits that fit the diagnosis, but seemed to believe that since there's no way to take a pill to cure it, having a diagnosis is useless. The counselor actually seemed to largely agree with this idea, which is one of the few sticking points I have with her. Sure, my symptoms won't be different, but having a diagnosis would mean I have a REASON for them, and thus would prove that it's not just me willfully being weird. My symptoms would be the same, but they'd be more widely accepted by society in general, and my mother in particular.
End result of this conversation? More self-harm. And, now, me posting here instead of working on my last bit of schoolwork.

Gnomes, release my post! I have a great deal of chocolate here that I need to get rid of, so I'm more than willing to share with them.

Moonlit Night @67: Precisely, my cutlery flinging is a frustration response. Only when the canon balls are used up, are the canons loaded with cutlery.

In the current pattern, if I air (the wrong) grievances, at some point my partner will go quiet (so thoroughly that he doesn't even react if I break off mid-sentence). My first response is to apologize/back-pedal, but if that continues to get minimal responses or silence, my next instinct is to re-engage and restate my position, more provocatively, and goad responses out of him. That last thing is cutlery loading.

We've worked on protocols for me to stop and walk away, and the most successful of them is to make a specific appointment to talk about it at a later date, but it still only works sometimes. In that moment, the only thing I want is to feel heard, and I'm willing to pay almost any price to get that.

Speaking up for a moment, hoping this isn't just hlepiness bubbling out:

Codemonkey @110: "I still have a card in my money tin (needless to say, from now on I won't be leaving the key at home when I go to work)" ... Adding my voice to the others here, but specifically, in this case, with "why are you leaving the TIN there when you go to work?". Your 'money tin' is one of the Important Things that need to go with you NOW and be gotten out of that house, along WITH the financial items your mom is trying to assert power over and _any_ other finanical stuff of YOURS that's there, your birth certificate and whatever the UK equivalents of social security cards are, and any important papers like passports, diplomas, or anything you'd have Real Trouble replacing if it Mysteriously Vanished in the next few days. If you have a spare laptop get it out NOW and don't have it come back. Things like your bed or your Sunday clothes aren't in this category, you can buy new ones... but things like papers you've taken home from work on current projects are.

In this case, it's EXTREMELY better to get forgiveness, or find out you'll never be forgiven evar you're going to give her apoplexy you're such a Bad Son, than it would be to try to get pernmission. They're yours, not hers. Gather them up and put them where she CAN'T GET AT THEM. If that happens to be your new place, fine; if it happens to be the locked trunk of your car for a little bit, that's okay too as long as she does NOT have keys (and neither does anyone else in that house, come to think of it). But as long as they're where she CAN get at them, you've said she's shown not the least little bit of conscience that would be STOPPING her from doing so in her attempts to keep you under her thumb.

Dash @121: "that she didn't really see the problem with my doctor but MAYBE we could LOOK INTO seeing HER doctor" ... OHHHHHH no no no no no. That way lies ... well, you've been reading Codemonkey's saga, right? I'm assuming you're of age here - I don't recall you saying otherwise - so I don't see why your _mother_ is including herself in your psychiatrist selection or visits, or getting to know ANYTHING about who your doctor is and why, let alone getting input into controlling who it would be?

(Full disclosure: I effectively cut myself off from _my_ mother as much as possible after moving out, I had Issues with her. The place I am standing on and looking out from may not be at all useful.)

...checking your older posts, you mention being in school, but you're also going to go teach abroad for a year? Am I reading it right that you're living with your mother at the moment? Would it be at all helpful to start putting together in your head a small list of "things NOT to casually mention to mother"? The counselor is getting paid to try to assist you; your mother isn't... I'm getting a distinct flavor of an "I mentioned such and such to her and things Got Worse" pattern, too.

You might think about making "finding an abroad-local doctor" a Thing To Do once you're abroad, as well. If the leaving date is close enough that your mother thinks trying to get some psych help wouldn't be useful, it's probably also close enough to make it a REALLY useful breaking point with your current doctor, regardless of what Mother thinks. _And_ you might do some internet checking-around while you're abroad, about home-local doctors to try out, without her looking over your shoulder and making Helpful Controlling Noises? (If things are bad enough now that it can't really wait, the above won't help much alas.)

--Dave, hoping my concern is correctly showing?

Dash: It's my understanding that, unless you're seeing them as a group, i.e. in couples or family therapy, most psychiatrists prefer NOT to treat two members of the same family, presumably in case issues come up that pit one against the other (which would put the MD in the position of not being able to wholeheartedly advocate for the patient).

At least, that's the way ours explained it to us.

Dash, I completely understand what you mean about an Asperger's diagnosis. A diagnosis won't help you as much as it would if you were younger, but it might help neurotypical others understand that you are not always going to react the way they do and your reasons are not something that they can convince you to change. A diagnosis gives you a useful anchor point to figure out workarounds without someone saying, "Yes, but that's only for X people." You can say, "I am X, so it's for me." It also gives you ammunition against the Tapes. If your counselor balks, could you tell her that the choices are self-loathing because you are a broken neurotypical person or acceptance because you are a fully functional non-neurotypical person? Really, "I need a reason this is happening because otherwise I hate myself," is a good reason to find that reason. Reasonably. For reasons.

This is coming from someone who classifies herself as on the weird end of the normal spectrum, because normal is a spectrum too. I have my reasons for not seeking a diagnosis of further along the spectrum, but they're mine, not yours. Your reasons are also legitimate. Your concerns are valid.

The Occasionally Good @120: that does sound like new doctor time, go you for insisting on that. Your soon-to-be-ex-doctor is presenting a lot of things that to the best of your knowledge are bad ideas, as though they were good ideas, and is not providing sensible explanations why. Instead you're getting a disguised version of "do it because I told you to." That "because I said so" is likely to be the trigger for the family issues. What were people in the past able to say "because I said so" likely and able to do when you tried saying "no I won't?"

Dash @121: much like David DeLaney @124, I don't like the pressures your mother is putting on you to have doctors she approves of and that could be biased towards her. Your going abroad is the perfect excuse to arrange new medical care over there, and then again over here, all without her influence, and all under the flag of being a proactive competent adult, which makes it difficult for parents to complain about without looking bad and perhaps making Freudian slips.

I get the impression you're a younger adult, and are supported by/living with your parents at least part of the time? You definitely don't seem happy with your living/parents situation the way it is from what I remember. Is the level of control and influence they have over you now within normal bounds for the situation? Do you want more independence, and what would it take to get it?

It sounds like your counselor suggested seeing a psychiatrist because of the intersection of mental and physical health knowledge. What about getting an official written note to that effect, and having a GP back it up? You could also use some official backup saying that prescriptions for mental health are not simple, to support you in having a psychiatrist abroad. I'm told by friends who take mental health meds that you might have to try several different medications and dosages before finding the right one, and should have someone competent nearby to assess and re-prescribe.

Having a psychiatrist does not mean you will *have* to have medication. My psychiatrist mostly does talk therapy, and hasn't even suggested prescribing me anything.

Lee @62: "Why" questions are looking for an answer of the form "because"

"Why"-form questions generally recognized as somewhat more open-ended than is often useful. (I like Lee's recycling of it, above, for that reason.)

Another angle to take: "And just who decided that it's my job to {dress | look pretty} [for you]?" This dumps the ownership of the criticism squarely in the lap of the critic.

If Critic is foolish enough to come back with any form of "well, Everybody Knows," then it's on to Meta-Model 101: "Everybody? You mean, the King of Siam says...?" Then, on to "Who, specifically?" Demand citations. This has the effect of dragging into awareness that somebody, somewhere decided this is The Way Things Are, and it is therefore obviously not a Law Of Nature.

the invisible one @69: "why are you so contrary"

For what it's worth, this one is (IMHO) simply "Is not!" "Is too!" playing dress-up out of Mommy's closet. I think it's perfectly legitimate to reply with a simple, "I am not," and then repeat until your opponent wears themselves out. For extra snark, add a little glint in the eye and touch of your tongue to your cheek.

"why are you/you're so defensive"

This one presupposes you are being defensive. To simultaneously expose the presupposition and deflect the accusation, one can go to, "Well, if I were being defensive (acknowledging but not conceding the point), it would be because I am feeling attacked." E.g., "Are you attacking me?"

What is "fighting fair"

I read your question as being somewhat rhetorical, but I'll answer it anyway. "Fighting fair," IMHO, is keeping to the truth, speaking respectfully, and protecting one's own boundaries without attacking the other's.

Pushing the other to clarify their meaning (and, if necessary/possible, cop to their intentions, especially if their intent is manipulation/control, especially² if their objective is to cause distress) is simply Good Communications Technique. If it forces them to think through what they're saying/doing, so much the better. "Your right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins," and all that.

If they regard your requests for them to specify their meaning as an attack, well then, that's on them, not you.

Oh. So "you're oversensitive, that only happened once!" or "you're just looking for something to get upset about, what about all the times when it worked out just fine?" are yet another way of making me think I'm somehow uniquely broken and nobody else reacts like that.

Right in one.

(I have interacted with some people who seem to not react that way, but maybe they're hiding it well? Or maybe what I perceive as hurtful isn't hurtful to them, so it doesn't set the expectation of future hurt.)

Exactly. (As a general rule, I'd go with the latter as my first guess.)

Basically, it all boils down to this, and it took me well into my thirties before I finally worked this one out.

One only, single, one (1) authority on what is appropriate for you to be hurt by, and how it is appropriate to feel about it is: second-person singular You.

You are the only person with Your experience. You are the only person with Your neurology. Therefore, You are the only person who can guage how much something hurts you, and whether or not that's too much.

(If you watch, I think you'll discover that there are things that hurt you that you look at and go, "Meh. Annoying, but ignorable." And, if you look, you'll discover that there are things that hurt other people that leave you completely unruffled. I predict you'll have to do some sleuthing to discover these; you've been carefully trained to believe that You're Oversensitive, so things that don't fit that persona Don't Count.) (And this, BTW, is why we have compassion and empathy; because everybody's sensitivities are not the same.)

The tactics we've been discussing are great ways to deflect the behaviors of those who think they have a right to define your experience for you. But really, the ultimate goal (IMHO) is to get to the point where you can say, "You know, you have a right to your opinion. Your right, however, does not include the right to define my experience." Or, better still, let them flail away with their opinion (preferably, somewhere else) while you go on about your business, entirely undisturbed.)

How to deal with it when it's something visible and the only way to not let them know that I've done something they happen to have suggested is to not be around them at all?

That's a toughy, and one I don't have a great answer for. I run into the same issue with things like, say, how I dress at work. A couple of strategies I've used:

1. Just go ahead an make the change, and gird myself to hear with the comments, say a simple, "Thank you," and move on. The introductory phase doesn't usually last long, as people have their own lives to attend to. Therefore, not predictive of someone who is invested in telling me how to be, or has a tendancy to dig up old issues.

2. Make the change gradually, so it's less noticeable.

3. Filter my exposure to that person so they're not around to observe the change. This one's tough because it (like lying) takes a lot of extra bookkeeping and is, therefore, fraught with the likelihood of error, at which point one is faced with dealing with the reaction, possibly unprepared.

I'd be curious to hear others' thoughts on this.

"Duck season"

Sorry: this is Me Being Clever. (Um, not.)

This refers to your statement about being the best meta-monster you can be, in response to people trying to make you look bad. Basically, if they're going to give you the opening/reason (and motivation!) to run Meta-Monster on them, then, by all means, let 'em having it with both barrels. Hence, "Duck Season"

"Heisenberg"? The only context I have for the latter is the uncertainty principle

Yes, that was what I was aiming for, except that I think I actually meant Einstein, as in "Relativity." Taste and values are about as relative as it gets.

Sorry for the obfuscation! :-)

Or maybe focus on the "over-" - "what would be an appropriate reaction?"

Yes! This is an excellent option. Also, while it may not be a direction you want to take, it might be worth saying, "And the fact that you say these things despite the fact that I've told you they hurt me—that makes you insensitive!"

Did I mention arguing opinion is not my strong point?

The bottom line, of course, is that "opinion," like feelings and values, are inarguable. One can have reasons for one's opinion, but really. Your opinion is your opinion, and nobody has the right/responsibility to tell you different. IMHO.

I have given some thought to making a comment about not inflicting my housekeeping on her if she asks why I decline to have them visit.

I think this is an excellent approach.

the invisible one @71: And to keep it that way, I've been using the "don't stand around watching while other people are working" that my parents instilled in me to my advantage, by declaring my roomba a member of the class of "other people" and cleaning for as long as the roomba is running, generally once a week. (About 45-60 minutes.)

I LOVE this idea! This is such a gloriously scientifictional notion that it makes me LOL. Have you named the roomba?

Heather Rose Jones @80: I was badly blindsided by how completely erased I am

Yeah, I should think so! "I've moved on so much I don't even want to admit that part of my life existed!" That's very sucky.

hope in disguise @116: 'NLP' always makes me think of 'natural language programming', as in the field of computer science that is loosely connected to AI.

Dueling Acronyms, we haz it! :-) :-)

Some nice hot tea, perhaps?

somewhere_else @119: Could I ask you to phrase your questions to me as questions in future?

By all means! I try to do that, but sometimes my Clever Rhetoric gets away from me. I always present in the frame of "does this apply to you?" "Is this what you meant?" "Would this work for you?" But it never hurts for me to remember to be more explicit.

please know that this is for hard for me to speak about and important enough to try anyway.

Well then you get extra points for putting in the effort to do so. Thank you for speaking up!

And please know that I am sorry for phrasing things in a way that make what I say One More Damn Thing To Deal with. I apologize.

Will drop it until/unless you express a desire to pick it up again. (And please, as above, feel free with the plushy trout! "Jacque! You're doing it again!")

I do have trouble with arguments when someone tries to 'win' by raising their voice or displaying agressive body language and try to disengage in these situations as soon as possible.

Ick ick ick! I ran into one of those yesterday when an angry client called. S/he wouldn't let me answer hir question and finally worked hirself up to the point of demanding to talk to my boss. "Thank you, and good riddance!" I thought, as I handed hir off. I'm usually pretty impervious, but this one had me flashing back to dealing with my mother. Had some pretty uncomfortable dreams last night. ::shudder::

The Occasionally Good @120: but I realized yesterday that I need to see [the records] myself.

Actually, current wisdom suggests keeping a copy of your records for yourself, from what I've heard. And, yes, sounds to me like Dr. Zie needs to be kicked in a long, flat ballistic to the next county.

Dash @121: Can you ask your therapist to provide reasons why a psychiatrist would work better for you than an MD?

since there's no way to take a pill to cure it, having a diagnosis is useless.

There may not be a "pill," but there are coping strategies and workarounds. Folks on the spectrum here can speak to this better than I can.

would prove that it's not just me willfully being weird.

This is non-trivial.

Jacque @ 128

To be completely and utterly fair (a state of mind I was not able to achieve during the wedding/reception itself), the relentless hammering away with the mythologized version of her life was largely coming from others. So I don't know whether she simply never got around to telling any of her friends and family (many of whom I socialized with at the time) that we were More Than Just Friends back when we were dating or whether they simply chose to forget/ignore it. Both options seem equally plausible.

To clarify my living situation, as it has come up in regards to how to proceed from here:
I am a full-time student, and live at home when school is not in session; my parents also cover the school expenses which are not covered by scholarships, so if I'm going to cut off ties with them it ought to wait until I've graduated and thus no longer using their money for school. The teaching abroad is not for a full year, but for most of the summer, and I do not know the local language, leading me to believe that finding a useful doctor there would be difficult and perhaps more trouble than it's worth. I do not have a driver's license and my father works full-time, so my mother more or less controls my transportation when I am at home, including but not limited to doctors' appointments. And "her doctor" is a MD/GP, not a psychiatrist.

Diatryma, #126: Really, "I need a reason this is happening because otherwise I hate myself," is a good reason to find that reason.

Agreed. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with people who don't believe your reason exists, that comes across as Looking For Excuses. As in, "you'll never get better as long as you keep looking for excuses not to." And that's what it sounds like Dash is up against, both with hir doctor and hir mother.

Dash, #133: That sounds to me as though you've identified an important step, and one that possibly can be taken before you leave: get your driver's license, so that you are not completely at the mercy of your mother for transportation.*

I speak here from long and bitter experience; my parents used my lack of independent transportation as a control lever the whole time I was in college. I had options for working around it, mostly in the area of "begging friends for rides", but it was a huge pain and has left me with Issues about being trapped due to lack of transportation. It sounds as though perhaps you don't have many friends to call on, so another option would be public transportation -- is there any where you are, and how would you go about using it? Under the guise, of course, of "I don't want to bother you with having to drive me around."

* Note that the pushback on this is likely to be "You don't need a driver's license -- we'll drive you anywhere you need to go." The corollary and catch to this is that they get to define "where you need to go".

Dropping in for a moment to ask for Good Thoughs. I'm managing with a supervisor who is of the opinion that if you aren't doing her way, UR DOIN IT WRONG, and has all sorts of complaints about how I'm doing my job, and I'm apparently not doing anything right. This is very tiresome, and I'm rolling up on sketching out some pushback, but it's very hard to do without letting any snark or snide slide into my tone.

Oh yeah, and did I mention? We're in the midst of our Month From Hell.

Anon Amos,

Witnessing.

#128, Jacque:

This one presupposes you are being defensive.

Well, often I am being defensive. And on reading your suggested reply, I suddenly realize that I defend because I feel attacked, or I've been attacked in the past so I'm preparing for one at that time. Kind of the same reason I finished my roomba-interaction description with "it works for me" - I'm used to being mocked for things far less silly than that, so I try to head it off before it starts. In person that would have included a shrug or dismissive wave of the hand or something that tried to minimize my attachment to the concept. It sometimes makes the target smaller.

It's unfortunate how many people think that the more defensive you get the more what they're saying must obviously be true and that somehow this gives them licence to keep at it.

Right in one.

I've learned this one several times over this past year and a bit that I've been participating in this community. It's been very helpful, and yet still needs to be learned multiple times.

It's not always intentional, too. Sometimes just the fact that nobody talks about something makes me think nobody else experiences that something, which is isolating in itself. Add to how I so rarely feel like I "belong" in a group, and that reinforces the feeling that I'm a real odd one. In the past I've sometimes referred to it as simply "being an alien".

you have a right to your opinion. Your right, however, does not include the right to define my experience.

I'm keeping this one.

The bottom line, of course, is that "opinion," like feelings and values, are inarguable.

And yet people argue politics and religion all the time...

Have you named the roomba?

Despite my penchant for speaking of inanimate objects as if they had a personality, I don't generally give them names. However, I have been thinking of finding a Jetsons sticker pack somewhere and putting Rosie the Robot on the roomba, because robot maid! The roomba doesn't talk back nearly as much as Rosie did, though. I think this is a feature.

the invisible one @137: It sometimes makes the target smaller.

Another consequence of having been systematically trained to devalue your perspective, I'll wager. I'm all for non-attachment but...not for that reason.

more defensive you get the more what they're saying must obviously be true and that somehow this gives them licence to keep at it.

This seems to be in the nature of the principle, "don't run away from the mountain lion." It's like a predator reflex. I try not to forget that humans are predators.

The issue I'm struggling with right now is that if I'm in conflict with someone, maintaining an assertive protection of my position, rather than an aggressive attack of theirs (which is even harder if there are points about which they are right). I generally do okay, but particularly where authority figures are concerned, it's really hard for me to refrain from lapsing into passive-aggressive, expecially when I've become angry.

still needs to be learned multiple times.

It takes a while for it to sink down to the hind-brain. Especially if you've been trained to value other peoples' experience over yours.

nobody talks about something makes me think nobody else experiences that something, which is isolating in itself.

This, IMnpHO, is the real value of the Internet. People are talking, and on a scale unprecedented in history.

"being an alien"

Hi! I'm from Mars. Where are you from? Yeah.

I think this is a feature.

:-) :-)

#138, Jacque:

systematically trained to devalue your perspective

Partly. And partly to pretend that I don't care about something so potential attackers don't see it as much of a target whether or not I actually care, whether it's something I did just for giggles or something that is more important to me, which I value and can't take mockery on.

I realized a while ago that I have no personal stuff on my desk at work, no badges or bumper stickers on my car, no decorations on my front door, basically very little that shows my personality on any public-facing space. And while I know I'm far from the only person who doesn't personalize these things, a large part of the reason I don't is because it allows me to be that much more anonymous and invisible. It took me a couple of years of thinking about it before I finally managed to put a NaNoWriMo sticker on my laptop, and making that decision was remarkably stressful.

the invisible one @139 partly to pretend that I don't care about something so potential attackers don't see it as much of a target whether or not I actually care

Yeah. This is a hard one in many respects. Because it's easy to say, "Why do you care what other people think?" But (a) some people have, through hard experience, learned that what other people think CAN hurt them. And (b) Everybody cares about what other people think. To some extent it's a feature, not a bug. Otherwise we'd all be sociopaths, or at least hopelessly self-centered. We learn not to grab food from other people's lunches or to maintain some basic standards of personal hygiene because we care what others think, and that's good. It's not necessarily obvious to kids that the same principles don't apply to, say, what kind of books you read or the fashionability of your clothing. The trick is learning boundaries - whose opinions on what topics matter to you - and counting yourself as one of those people whose opinion matters. And if this has been poorly modeled or taught as one was growing up (by intrusive parents, for example, or bullying peers) then it has to be relearned. And it's hard.

the invisible one, #139: I realized a while ago that I have no personal stuff on my desk at work, no badges or bumper stickers on my car, no decorations on my front door, basically very little that shows my personality on any public-facing space.

I've always tended to that sort of thing myself, with occasional minor exceptions. In my case, it's at least partially a hostile "It's none of their goddamn business!" thing.

Although I do find that having an Om symbol hanging on the front door is actually better repellent for religious salesdroids than the "No Soliciting" sign, which they have a remarkable tendency to assume doesn't apply to them. We've sometimes observed them walking across the yard to the door, seeing the symbol, and turning away without bothering to ring the bell.

On truth shouting vs cutlery loading:

I was thinking about behavioral models on engaging with cutlery loaders, because my husband is very clearly a cutlery loader whereas I grew up with a truth shouter*. (Shouts a lot of things, doesn't remember a word of it thirty minutes later, where I have historically assumed he was truth shouting and thus spent a few months tiptoe-ing around the cutlery until he voices confusion at my behavior.)

In any case, I thought about examples in the media after someone upthread suggested Elementary as a good example to study. And I need some help here--all the examples I can think of are of Truth Shouters. Someone breaking down at the height of the argument type of situation. Maybe this is for narrative convenience?

Because the only Cutlery Loader example I could think of was Syd from the recent Looper, which isn't a great example because, um, he's barely a toddler, and I'm looking for something to pattern my behavior on. And on further thought, all I can think about are vague impressions of the cutlery loader shouting something unforgiveable, and another character forgiving them. Also not a great example.

Help?

*Actually, in retrospect my mother is a cutlery loader who, instead of admitting that it was cutlery, decides that since it was shouted, it must be Truth, rather than admit she lost her temper in the heat of the moment. But only sometimes. It's hard to tell when it's Truth and when it's Cutlery, and sometimes Cutlery is insisted on as being Truth when she's angry, but only for the duration.

upset @ 142

This is an excuse for me to recommend Let's Pretend This Never Happened. Admittedly it's a book rather than media, but not only does it show a fun side of somewhat random behavior (like recommending books when media is requested), it's the clearest example of cutlery-loading I can think of.

And I'll give it a mixture of recommendation and trigger warning. The author had a very painful upbringing with non-trivial damage resulting from it, but on the other hand she's very funny.

And she's managed to make something rather good out of the damage without leaving me feeling inadequate. I simply blame it on my father being a snippy CPA while her father would throw live bobcats at people because he genuinely believed they would like having live bobcats thrown at them.

Dash @133, I agree with Lee that you should insist on getting your driver's license. Even if you don't actually drive much, it'll probably save you plenty of money and hassle compared to getting it later yourself, which is what I have to do. Check your local rules against my sitatuation below, and then start pushing for it. Your parents should have a hard time refusing without revealing their real reasons against it, and if they do slip up it will give you additional leverage, since there are lots of solid objective reasons to parade:
- Your driving is a convenience for your parents as you can transport yourself and run household errands.
- Possessing a license does not require you to immediately buy a car, should anyone be worried about the finances of that.
- It's a useful piece of ID.
- You are of age and responsible.
- Your parents want the best for you, which means they should help you get it instead of putting you in a position where either you lack independence or must spend a lot of money to remedy the lack (see below).
- Avoiding this unnecessary spending as detailed above is a prudent and frugal choice.
- The ability to drive is a qualification for some jobs, including white-collar professions where one visits clients and suppliers regularly.

Where I am, getting a license as a solo adult is much more difficult and expensive than getting it while living with parents. Our graduated licensing system starts with a written test ($) then assumes that you have the regular use of a car and experienced driver to babysit you for a year of practice. If you do not, then as well as taking driving school ($$), you'll probably have to pay for extra hours to have adequate practice time ($$?). Then you test for your G2 ($) and spend another year as a provisional driver, but you're allowed out by yourself and to use highways. Then you test again for your full license ($). When you have it, you can't sign up for a car sharing service as the locally available one requires you to have had your full license several years. So if you need to drive you have to rent ($$) or buy ($$$$) a car, and then you have to pay the insurance. Because you are a solo inexperienced driver, it will be much more expensive per year ($$$) than it will be 5-10 years later, or if you had followed the social custom and been registered for your parents' car at a substantially lower cost. You can't be on the insurance of someone you don't live with, so no sharing with an older friend unless you share a dwelling. I guess the presence of parents is a magical panacea to prevent accidents, sufficient to make a 20 year old with their dad's car less of a risk than a 30something who just bought their own and has every reason to take care of it. It will cost me at least several thousand more to get and use a driver's license, than it would have cost my parents to let me learn, and the result is that I *still* don't have one because I keep needing the funds more for rent and food and bills.

So get that license! It doesn't matter if your parents lock it in a drawer until you leave home; the important part is having it so that it can age into usefulness, like wine.

Moonlit Night, #144: Woof! It wasn't anything like that bad when my now-ex got his first license. He'd never gotten one as a teenager because he had epilepsy, and for a while it wasn't as well controlled as it could have been. And between him being an indefatigable walker, and his parents and then me being willing to drive him places, and our workplaces being quite close together, he didn't really need it for quite a while. But then the company I was working for decided to move, and it wasn't going to be practical for me to drive him to and from work any more, and it had been 10 years since he had a seizure, so we went for it.

First he had to get a learner's permit, and I don't recall offhand what that cost but it wasn't outrageous. Then he took a driver ed class, which was no more than $200 IIRC. Then I took him to the testing station and he took and passed the road test, and that was it. His actual license didn't cost any more than mine did. If I'd been willing to give him the driving practice, he wouldn't even have had to take the class, but neither of us thought that was a good idea. :-)

So obviously the requirements vary widely from state to state, and Dash will need to research them.

Lee @145: I'm in Ontario, and I have no idea how strict our licensing process is compared to elsewhere since I am little travelled. I wish I knew somewhere useful to complain to about the accidental discrimination, so that it might be fixed.

Abusive statements I have known: "I know you better than you know yourself."

What it means: "I have a better idea what's going on in your head than you do, so I have the right to dictate your own thoughts to you. If you think you are thinking something else, then you're simply wrong."

How I wish I had responded: "Well no, there is actually a reality outside your head and I'm part of it. You don't get veto power over my thoughts."

I might look into getting a driver's license, but I don't have much time to practice (particularly before going abroad), and I'm kind of scared. Part of the reason I don't have one is that with my ADHD and my poor performance in driver's ed and my managing to hit something while practice-driving at slow speeds, I'm afraid my driving skills are questionable and the general public may be safer without me driving (it perhaps doesn't help that my parents are highly critical of others' driving skills). There is some public transportation near home, but not a ton. And I have indeed lost touch with many of my friends from home, and most of those I still contact also lack a driver's license or available car.
Random note: With parents now, and twice now, my mother has sweared and, presumably because I am eternally the young and innocent child in her mind, immediately denied that she sweared (Exact quote from the latest instance: "Oops! I didn't say that.") Gaslighting at its most blatant. But if I confronted her, she would undoubtedly shrug it off as a joke.

Dash: If there's someone less judgey than your parents that you could practice with, I recommend asking them, if you decide to go for your license. Since you know your parents are hyper-critical about driving in particular, it may help to get them out of the equation for a spin around a parking lot. (As ever, ignore if hlepy.)

Dash @121:
She agreed that I have some traits that fit the diagnosis, but seemed to believe that since there's no way to take a pill to cure it, having a diagnosis is useless. The counselor actually seemed to largely agree with this idea, which is one of the few sticking points I have with her. Sure, my symptoms won't be different, but having a diagnosis would mean I have a REASON for them, and thus would prove that it's not just me willfully being weird. My symptoms would be the same, but they'd be more widely accepted by society in general, and my mother in particular.

If it would help, here's a description of my relationship with that particular term.

I've never been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, because I've never gone through the process of seeking a diagnosis. Some of that's age (I predate the time when it was a common diagnosis), some of it's gender, some of it's having developed adequate coping mechanisms back when I thought I was just a weirdo.

But ten or fifteen years ago, I sat down and took a long, hard look at myself. I looked at my family history (grandfather and father not diagnosed, but meet the criteria beautifully; autism in the collateral lines; younger brother diagnosed; nephew diagnosed). I looked at the places where I miss what others understand, looked at the things that drive me nuts (clutter, noise, rule- and context-free situations), considered the things I do better than most of the people around me (pattern-seeking and -matching, rule and systems design).

So I did a bunch of online tests, and did a bunch of reading. The tests all came in as borderline Aspergers, and the remediations suggested tended to work for me. And I thought, this is either Asperger Syndrome or a Greek of the same name.

Which is all background to what I wanted to say, which is that using the term for myself has been an enormous help to managing my life and my interaction with the wider world. It allows me to give myself a freaking break on things that I struggle with. It helps me figure out ahead of time whether new situations are going to require additional effort to cope with. It explains a heck of a lot of problems I've had, and points me at some strengths I wouldn't have known to look for.

My relationship with the word "cure" in this context is complex, because Asperger's is more of a description of a personality type that doesn't fit the world very well than it is a disease to be treated. I don't want to be cured of being me. I just want to mesh with the world better. (This is in contrast to depression, which I would be just fine being cured of. I'd be no less me without it; indeed, quite the opposite.)

Dash @ 121/abi @ 150

abi's experience is pretty much spot-on the same as mine. I like being me; I like the people I work with*; I like my oldest son; having "Asperger's/spectrum" as a category in my head makes a lot of things with all three easier to understand, and predict, and cope with.

*I'm an actuary; the combination of attention to detail and attention to patterns required mean that autism-spectrum personalities are probably more common than not in the field. Kind, nice, smart--quite frequently; think walking in circles talking to themselves is perfectly reasonable behaviour--also quite frequently. First time in my life I ever felt entirely comfortable was when I started working as an actuary--I had finally found a place where I like the others.

Dash: there is one way in which having a diagnosis, confirmed by a professional, can be an advantage: it gives you an entry to disability access services. I don't know how much longer you have left in university, but those services are definitely present on a campus environment, and it may be helpful in negotiating the terms of the Americans with Disabilities Act, or your local equivalents, when you enter the work force. Of course, the tricky thing about acknowledging something like that is that it may prejudice employers against you, in an interview or after hire, depending on when you disclose, & they can usually find some way to blame their actions on something else.

Nevertheless, I'm in favor of diagnosis.

Dash @148, at least in my area there are some driver education classes that specialize in teaching people with various kinds of learning disabilities or non-neuro-typicalities (which is the bucket into which I would throw both ADHD and Asperger's in this context). Extra practice, use of a simulator, etc., might be helpful. Google may be your friend here. It does sound like you wouldn't have time before you go to your summer teaching job, though.

#148, Dash:

my poor performance in driver's ed and my managing to hit something while practice-driving at slow speeds, I'm afraid my driving skills are questionable

A lot of people, including me, make more mistakes when under stress. For me, that includes when somebody is watching me, whether or not they're critical; if they criticize it gets worse.

I'm not sure who was with you when you were practice driving, but from the sounds of it if it were your parents they may have induced stress levels high enough to hit something. An instructor can also cause stress if they aren't a good fit for you.

Even if I'm demonstrating something that I've done properly dozens of times I'll still be most likely to fumble if somebody is watching. Once at work I was running some new trial tests; after having done them all shift with no problems, the other guy came to take over and work the next shift. While showing him what I had been doing so he'd do the same tests and the results would be useable, I fumbled several things in the steps, including dropping and breaking some lab glassware - all because suddenly I had somebody watching what I was doing. It had nothing to do with me not being good at what I was doing, only with not being good at having people watch me.

If you can find somebody other than your parents who doesn't cause you stress to help you practice, maybe you could also start with some low-stress games to get used to handling the car without putting anything at any kind of risk. I'm thinking as examples, empty parking lot and the games of "squish the paper cup with a particular wheel", or "park/drive between the lines without squishing any paper cups".

Dash, a driver's license is useful, but if it is *you* who doesn't want you to have one, that is a completely valid choice. I have several friends out of college who don't drive (I'm helping one of them move to Pennsylvania in a couple months) so it's not something you have to have to be a functional adult. Many of us weight the equations differently-- for me, getting a license, maintaining a car, and driving everywhere is less stress than figuring out buses, keeping a pass, and changing my schedule. If your equation is different, that's okay.

I think the important things are that it is *your* decision, not anyone else's, whether your parents' or ours, and that you feel free to change your mind if circumstances change.

As a maybe-hlepful aside, when my sister learned to drive (she was graduating college and needed to drive to work), she could not abide having any direct family member teach her, but our stepmom (our dad remarried after the divorce) was able to teach her to drive. I think the emotional distance really helped there--our stepmom hadn't had any part raising us, so while she and my sister were on good terms, the interaction wasn't so full of stressful close-family interactions somehow.

I've been thinking off and on about the original post, and I'm hard put to identify myself as either a truth-shouter or a cutlery-loader. When I finally break, I guess I'm a truth-shouter, but I have an intermediate stage, where I think I'd call myself a cutlery-swallower. Because when I get angry, all that stuff is to hand, but I'm oversocialized in the fact that Getting Angry Is Not Acceptable. So I stuff it down instead of throwing it. Long term, this is not good for the insides.

#140, OtterB:

We learn not to grab food from other people's lunches or to maintain some basic standards of personal hygiene because we care what others think, and that's good. [...] The trick is learning boundaries - whose opinions on what topics matter to you - and counting yourself as one of those people whose opinion matters. And if this has been poorly modeled or taught as one was growing up (by intrusive parents, for example, or bullying peers) then it has to be relearned. And it's hard.

Yes, that about sums it up. And I think that may have been what both ex and I were not connecting on (or implicitly including/implicitly filling in using different assumptions) in the discussion of how unhealthy it may or may not be to ignore other people's criticisms. He may have been thinking ALL criticism ALL the time ignored.

#150, abi:

I looked at the places where I miss what others understand, looked at the things that drive me nuts (clutter, noise, rule- and context-free situations), considered the things I do better than most of the people around me (pattern-seeking and -matching, rule and systems design).

Oh. Well, that might possibly explain a few things. Do you by chance have a reference for some of the coping strategy stuff you found useful? Some of those I can only avoid right now.

In North America, it is very important to have a driver's license, if you are physically able to drive. Just as a piece of ID if nothing else; and if you are ever interested in getting a car, having "full license" for some time matters for insurance purposes, even if you haven't been driving.

There are lots of places (see NotAlwaysWorking, for instance) where a DL will be taken as ID, and nothing else will (passport, "proof of age", military ID, ...) and where they are going to ask for it. Yeah, *they're* the ones that are wrong, but that doesn't help at the time.

Also, depending on where you live, valid driver ID may be the easiest pass through "I can vote" - which is possibly the most critical thing you can do with your life. Those *special* Voter ID laws coming in in states where certain people don't want people like Dash (student) or me (liberal) to vote, but can't actually deny it, for instance.

I would suggest everyone in NA get a license, even if they aren't going to drive, just so they're bootstrapped when it turns out they have to (or, they're the only sober person at the party, or the driver in the family tripped and fell down the stairs, and you have to take them to the hospital, or for the next few months when they're in a legcast and can't drive, or...)

(Nothing in this previous should be taken as a suggestion that if you're not comfortable driving for any reason at a particular time (including lack of practise or stress reactions or...) that you should get behind the wheel anyway.)

Graduated licensing (in general) is a good thing, and yes, it sucks if you don't go through the "get it while you're a child of a driving family" thing. I lived in K/W for a number of years, and the graduated license would have restricted me from the Conestoga Parkway - which effectively means "takes twice as long to get anywhere in my own town". Never mind not driving the 400-series highways, which makes going anywhere *else* take significantly longer. Funny story: I almost got dropped into the graduated license when I moved there - even though I'd been driving on my own for 7 years. But I'd been driving a motorcycle, and only had a M-equivalent license (valid for learner on a car) until about 6 months before I moved out. I filled in the form correctly, and they asked me at the desk "you have only been driving for 13 months?" "a car, yes." "how long have you been driving?" "motorcycle, 7 years." "Okay, we'll just fudge this number, or you'd have to be G2, and that makes no sense..."

But that's just another reason to get the DL ASAP, even if you're not actually driving; to get you in the timestream, if you move to a place where there's a more restrictive timestream.

Others, still witnessing; glad to hear about the progresses; work is getting better, but I still have issues to work out (but I don't cry every time something doesn't work any more); and I have to think about argument styles. All I know is that I get angry, and have arguments, but can't afford to lose my temper - because I also lose the next 5 or so minutes of my life. The people I'm around don't though.

Shorter Mycroft: having a Driver's License and driving aren't equivalent; getting one is useful even if you aren't going to be driving.

Diatryma, #155: Seconded. I have one friend here who does not drive, for reasons that feel appropriate to her; she's worked out adequate methods of coping with it, and that's her business. As previously noted, I have Issues about lack of independent transportation, so that wouldn't be an option for me.

Mycroft, you don't have to have a DL to get a state-issued ID (at least in the US; I don't know how other countries handle it) otherwise those voter ID laws would be extra-discriminatory. You can go to the office where they issue ID and get a state-issued ID that looks much the same but isn't a driver's license.

abi, I appreciate the Truth-Shouter/Cutlery Shooter distinction because it's about about a way that communication can fail between people who aren't especially fouled up.

Ross @147: Abusive statements I have known: "I know you better than you know yourself."

"Damn! They let you take telepathy? Wow. I wish we had Telepathy Class in my high school. That woulda been so cool...."

Heh. I can't put words to the slow burn of fury that tactic brings up in me.

Dash @148: A lot of public transportation nowadays has provisions to carry bicycles, which increases one's range even further. Might be worth looking into as an interim solution...? (And it's lots cheaper.)

162 Naomi: I agree. I also know that those non-Driver IDs are "just as valid" according to the government; less so by the random bouncer at the bar, or the random person validating identity for a credit card purchase, or...

I've had (been with) people denied entry with a valid passport, never mind a "identity card". It's wrong, and it *shouldn't* happen, I agree. Life is just easier with a real DL, even if it's never used for its intended purpose. Plus, it's a good argument to use for people who want a driver's license but have people who "will always drive you where you need to go".

the invisible one @158:
Do you by chance have a reference for some of the coping strategy stuff you found useful? Some of those I can only avoid right now.

I don't any more. Most of what I do is to understand what things are likely to overwhelm me and minimize them in my life, identify the feeling of becoming overwhelmed so I can address it early, and teach the people around me not to do the things that drive me nuts. (Privilege check: I know that not everyone is surrounded by teachable, supportive people. Not all of these tactics will work in an environment containing, or controlled by, people who aren't.)

High on the list of things I am careful about:
* visual clutter I tend to be the one to tidy the house, because I'm the one who can't take it first. If I haven't the spoons to clean the whole house, I'll clean one room and take the laptop in there for refuge.
* auditory clutter The kids like to watch YouTube, and for parenting reasons, we try to discourage headphone use. Instead, I've been teaching them to turn things down so that they can hear their own videos, but not obtrude on the other's (kind of the reverse of dueling stereos). But sometimes I just have to leave the room, or put on my own earphones. (Background music is also tiring, but less so than background talking.)
* tactile overstimulation Gusty wind drives me bats. When I'm overstimulated and stressed, I don't like to be touched, not even hugged. (When I'm upset, I do, but with practice, my family has learned the difference.) Telling people this, and telling them that it's not that I don't care about them, has been a useful tactic.
* social overstimulation Knowing when I'm simply talked to death, and giving myself permission to go away from it, is important. This is particularly the case because my son is intensely verbal and not very good at figuring out when it's time to stop talking without clear verbal prompts.

Over time, I've learned to identify the feelings in myself that arise when these things are going to overwhelm me. I call it feeling "hassled": it's a too much -- too much -- too much rebellion of the senses. Fortunately, it's always clear what is pushing me over the edge; the trick is identifying other contributory factors (I can take more social stimulation when I'm not cycling through the wind).

When I'm getting that feeling, I remind myself that it's an environmental issue rather than a more structural problem and work to de-stress before I tackle whatever else is going on. ("Can we talk about this with the stereo off/once we get indoors/up in my [tidy] workspace?") If I need someone to stop doing something, I tell them so without blaming them ("I love you too, and I appreciate the support, but I just need to not be touched right now. I'll come over and give you a hug in a little bit.")

The theory about Asperger Syndrome that makes the most sense for me is that it's an input channel issue. Most people do a certain amount of pre-filtering on their inputs...basically, deciding what to ignore before even being conscious of it. Aspies do markedly less of that, and so are dealing with a lot of detail clamoring for attention. That's useful for noticing what others miss, and the practice dealing with it means that we're really good at extracting patterns from massive inputs (server logs, data files, real life). But it's tiring, and we need to accept that we're going to have to be careful in contexts that cost us more spoons than they do some other people.

But who in life doesn't have such restrictions? My (non-Aspie) husband gets really bothered by smells, particularly when he's under stress. He has to work to tolerate or remediate them; he has to ask me to cooperate with him in dealing with this sensitivity.

My dad can start a lecture perfectly reasonably, illustrating some complaint (a PROBLEM with YOU of course), but gradually piss himself off more and more while talking about it, until at the end he's a seething beast, hurling insults and raging with red face. All without a single word from the other person. What a fucking idiot.

Brakefast, my dad was similar when I was growing up, and oh how unfair it felt. He even got angry talking about other people and it felt so unfair to have to experience his anger when no one in the house was even the culprit! "Some people" were, and he was ranting at and about them, and he had a way to work himself into a rant, but he didn't seem to have self-soothing mechanisms to calm himself down at the end. I guess losing himself in his hobbies helped, although I don't think I put those pieces together till just now.

I wish I were more comfortable with my own anger and could more calmly deal with others' expressions of anger. I've made some progress at work, which is helpful.

abi, are you me?

visual clutter: yes, and to make it worse, cleaning it up takes an insane amount of spoons for me, no matter what system I use, and maintaining it is also problematic.

auditory clutter: how much do I love my big cushioned over-the-ear headphones? Luckily, my kid is older, and I don't have as much of a parenting issue with headphone use, so I generally only have to resort to them (with baroque/classical music, which helps) when there's a shared TV show I don't want to watch.

tactile: fortunately, my friends group is pretty good about a consent culture, so I can say "Yes, I'm very happy to see you, but no hugs right now, I'm not holding it together well enough for hugs." Because one of the stressed/overstimulated situations is when I've just arrived at a con.

social: yep, even though I love social contact, there comes a point where I'm done and need to go hide for a while.

I really do need to dedicate some time to cleaning up. I know it will make other things in my life more manageable.

But so much yes to all of that, and, indeed, the hacks you describe are so similar to mine.

#166, abi:

I definitely get overwhelmed when there's too much sound around, usually with regards to multiple conversations. This is one reason I don't really like group situations; above a certain number of people, and the conversation fragments into multiple threads. I also have a hard time holding a conversation when the tv is on, but that applies whether the sound is on or not. The movement draws my eye and I find myself trying to figure out what it means.

I also get distressed (and sometimes start to panic) in a case of too many people in too small of a space. A small space by itself isn't a problem, I'm not claustrophobic, it's very specific to the "too many people" part of it. I can be out on a street and get that reaction. (I was once in downtown Seattle on black friday. That was horrible.) It's worse when I'm with other people because I have a hard time recognizing faces, so I very easily lose people in a crowd and have the increased stress for that. If alone I can kind of mentally curl in on myself and set a target and get through the crowd by treating the other people as moving obstacles, but if I'm trying to keep track of another person I can't do that. Only time so far I was in a crowd with the new interest, I couldn't let go of his hand until we were out of it.

Touch is an odd one. I love wind and weather, but if one of my own hairs falls onto my arm I have to get it OFF. I have an extremely short list of people who are allowed to touch me, but in the highly choreographed situation of martial arts practice, having a complete stranger grab and restrain me is fine.

What really got me in your initial description was the mention of situations that were rule-free or context-free. Social interactions where I have a defined role are far easier for me to handle, and I have a special hate for the kind of "game" where one of the rules is that you don't tell people what the rules are. (Most recent ex loved those.)

I'm going to try to notice what exactly it is about situations that make me grumpy or panicky, for those I haven't already identified.

Quick check-in to drop off a link: Depression Quest: an Interactive (non)fiction About Living With Depression. It's an in-browser text based rpg where you play the role of someone suffering from (clinical?) depression.

I just went, "oh. is this not normal?" from inside the fog of my not getting enough sleep for several nights running. If there's someone here who's certain that they DON'T suffer from depression, I'd be obliged if they would post their experience with the narrative, as right now I can't tell if it's me or the lack of sleep talking.

It does make me want to get a kitten, though.

I haven't been around for a thread or two, I think? I'm doing well -- seeing a good therapist weekly, getting ready to apply to a low-cost psychiatric clinic, working through a lot of Stuff, getting well rested up and living low-stress.

But, as my friends keep having to remind me, I have a hell of a lot of Stuff to go through, and it's not surprising that I occasionally run into something that hits me all in a lump.

This time it's... oh, where to start? Um -- let's see, I have two different scheduled incidences of pet-sitting for housemates in the foreseeable future, so when a neighbor asked one of said housemates to pet-sit, it was perfectly logical that I should get handed the job on Housemate's recommendation (because she's too busy at the moment).

This is not about Housemate. I have no complaints about her part in this. We'd previously discussed me taking this neighbor's next pet-sitting job, she'll back me up if I change my mind, it's all good. This is about my Goddamn Tapes that promptly started up.

The train of thought went something like this: "Hurrah, Responsibility! I get to have people trust me and give me Things To Do, and there is nobody around trying to sabotage me and telling everyone I'm an irresponsible little shit like my bio-incubator [I refuse to call her my mom] always did back in the town I left! ...but, but, what if I Fail? What if I really am an irresponsible little shit? What if I just freak out from the sheer weight of responsibility and head for the hills and nobody feeds the cats? ONOES CAT MURDERER!!!!" :P

And I can't make my brain shut up and prove I'm not going to do that, because -- I never have proved to myself that I'm Trustworthy and Responsible. (It was one of her big things, to pull out a random request she'd made of me and rant about how I hadn't done X when she TRUSTED me to and so she COULDN'T TRUST ME EVER and therefore I wasn't allowed to... go to a specific event or something.) I don't even know why - I find this really frustrating, that I always do it and I can't nail down why - but every time I get close to Succeeding at something that feels "big", that's going to convince someone to trust me, I panic. I do drop everything and run away.

(I don't think I would this time, because ONOES CAT MURDERER trumps OMG RESPONSIBLE ADULT?!, but... scared. :P)

Does anyone else have this tape? Have you found a thing to do about it? Halp. ;S

I have been gnomed. Would Their Lownesses like some rainbow sherbet?

it's a too much -- too much -- too much rebellion of the senses.

Many people seem to enjoy loud music. (Case in point: the organizers of those parties and wedding receptions.) I find myself wondering whether they don't get that reaction, or whether they get it but somehow find it pleasant. I asked my wife, but her response wasn't clarifying.

Fortunately in my life as it is, it's not often a major issue.

upset @171- I'd seen that link around, but never actually played through it until tonight. It definitely helped me connect some dots, and I ended up sending the link and the links to the Hyperbole and a Half posts about depression to my father (not my mother, though he'll probably end up sharing them with her). I had a minor relapse today, in which I abruptly could do nothing but stare into space sadly while my parents yelled at me to chill out, so I figured it was worthwhile. They already know I've been feeling depressed (not about the self-harm though), but maybe having more information will help them understand. Probably not, but it's worth a shot.

Mycroft @165

Huh. Have you really seen people turned away because they have state ID instead of a driver's license? Where? I'm finding that hard to believe, as I've never had a single problem in the twelve years I've had non-driver ID, and I've never heard of anyone having trouble with it.

Here in Washington, the only difference between a driver's license and state ID is that one says "Driver's License" at the top, while the other says "Identification Card." Otherwise, they look the same, with the same security measures, UV features, etc.

Now, a passport I can understand. It should be just as valid, yeah, but there are reasons a bouncer might worry: It's issued by a foreign government, I have no idea what one is supposed to look like (granted, I don't actually know what a Missouri DL/ID looks like either, but I have a general idea) and fairly often it's not in English so I can't even be sure it says the right things if it is real.

She pushes down @172:

It's interesting that you should call yours a tape, I think of mine (if indeed it is similar) as a stuck record. And rather than jumping out of the stuck spot when I think sensibly about something, the groove just gets deeper and deeper until my head is screaming at me and it's all that I can hear. At which point I begin to think I should go turn myself into the police (because obviously I've done something/will do something horrible) or, in the darkest of moments, kill myself. It's all terribly exhausting.

In my case, my tape/record is a manifestation of OCD (the fun "obsessional" part). Sometimes my brain just has the klaxon jammed on and, before therapy, I could be in fight-or-flight for days.

Since you asked, and if it's not too hlepy, here's what I have learned to do when tape/record start up or realize it's been playing. First, I remind myself it's not me, it's disordered thinking that's happening - chemical messages shooting down the best-worn pathway, my brain on auto-pilot. Then I promise to explore the terror and the worry when I have time and space to cope with it (in therapy sessions or alone) and then I distract the crap out of myself. Baking is a favorite way - just enough fiddly stuff to make me focus, but if my mind wanders the consequences are pretty minimal (it's amazing how much carbon one can scrape off a cake and still find it tasty).

In my case, just being able to remind myself that my stuck record is a symptom of an illness and not a terrible truth has been massive. I'm learning that peace and panic are like the tide. They come and go, sometimes cresting higher or coming in faster than I expected them to. Right now, for example, things are getting hard (birthdays, mother's or father's day, anniversaries all make April-May-June very difficult). I haven't been to my therapist for a while, but I think it's nearly time to go back.

Alas, I want to find a new therapist (the last one implied a few times that I was boring her), but the idea of starting over is daunting to me.

(Apologies to all if this is all to hlepy and long-winded.)

Bam @177: The idea that a therapist would be bored seems very unprofessional to me. Is it possible you mis-understood something the therapist said? I could imagine a therapist indicating to you that you were stuck in a rut, that they'd heard the same description of a problem many times, but that would presumably be said as an attempt to try to get you out of the rut, not because they were bored. It seems like something worth discussing with the therapist.

On the other hand, would changing therapists really be "starting over"? Wouldn't you still have any gains you've made and self-knowledge you've acquired with the current therapist, even after you switch. You and the new therapist would have to become familiar and comfortable with each other, and the new therapist would have to learn about you, but wouldn't you still be ahead of where you were when you started with the first therapist?

#178 ::: Jeremy Leader

The idea that a therapist would be bored seems very unprofessional to me.

Therapists are human, too, and some of them are unprofessional. Some of the them are burning out.

Nancy, true, but the point of the transaction is not for the patient to entertain the therapist. If the therapist has gotten to that point, it's time to change careers, or at least take a long vacation.

I was disagreeing with Jeremy's idea that a bored therapist is so implausible that a client should assume that the therapist isn't actually bored.

Jeremey Leader @178 She kept looking at her watch, like she had something in the oven. I'm acutely aware of the needs of people around me and, thinking about it, my feelings of needing to find another therapist might have more to do with being afraid I haven't somehow pleased my therapist and less to do with thinking she wasn't sufficiently present. Food for thought.

Nancy Lebovitz @ 179 As you say, therapists are human too. I was the last patient before an extended vacation, so I can see how she might have been excited about the end of the day rolling around.

Has she shown signs of not paying attention to you in general, or was it just the one session?

Happy NOT Mother's Day.

Those of you who have chosen motherhood and are happy with it, and those who have (or had) close, warm relationships with your own mothers, I'm glad for you. But you are not the only people around, and my concern today is with the others.

For all those who have chosen, for their own good reasons, not to walk this path, only to be told every year that they are worthless because they have not reproduced, no matter how much good they have done in the world...

For all those who have suffered under the myth that "of course ALL mothers LOVE their children" -- in the teeth of direct evidence that your mother did not love you, or should not have had children at all...

For all those whose mothers have been sources of pain rather than joy, denigration rather than support, relentless criticism rather than caring...

For all those whose relationships with their mothers are fraught, and are sick and tired of being told that you MUST "love and honor" a person who brings nothing but drama and anguish to your life...

For all those who find this day more of a burden than a blessing...

You are not forgotten. And you are not alone.

If there is a woman who has had a positive impact on your life, and who is going to be ignored and/or treated as a second-class citizen today because she hasn't procreated, this would be an outstanding time to tell her that you appreciate what she's done for you.

The day started out so well... I wished my mother a happy Mother's Day, told her good news about my grades, and everybody was happy... until my mother found out that the schedule for the day would have to change, because of the decisions of relatives who are not myself or my father. Regardless, shortly after getting that announcement, my mother interpreted my leaving the room while she was ranting to my father as equivalent to me swearing at her, denied that I had given her the warm greeting that "everybody else" got, and construed every attempt that we made to let her decide what to do for the day as sarcastic (some were, most weren't).
I also told my father about my self-harm, with a promise not to tell my mother. He called it "crazy stuff", gave me hlepy advice about how everybody has problems and you can't please everybody, and agreed that I should see a psychiatrist, though my mother is still against the idea.
Happy egg donor day to me...

Lee, thank you so much. I don't have handles on all of my feelings today, but I really appreciate your post.

I am witnessing, I am here, I am listening.

Lee #184:

Although nobody's ever told me I'm worthless for that, I still make it a policy to celebrate Non-motherhood Day today. Extra goodies, just 'cause!

(Otherwise, the day's main effects involve ordering flowers for me elderly mum, and avoiding restaurants because they'll be crowded as hell.)

Another thing of note that came up today: We got an inexpensive gift for my grandmother. It transpired that it was not the specific type which she prefers, but she said that it was fine regardless. Afterwards, my mother commented along the lines of, "Oh, she says it's fine, but she'll probably throw it out or give it to somebody else."
And she wonders why I have trouble believing when people tell me they like me, or when she tells me that I'm a good person... when she's trained me to suspect that all positive statements are lies.

Lee #184: Excellent suggestion - I have contacted someone to whom I don't show enough love and gratitude. It's nice to feel included in the warm-fuzzy of the day.

And for the rest, grateful thanks.

Re: Mother's Day: Happy Dysfunctional Families Day East.

@Dash no. 188: There's a double layer of jerkitude to that particular remark, considering that normally a gift is 100 percent the possession of the recipient and they may dispose of it in any way they please as long as they are tactful. And your mother reframed this completely normal social process in the most hurtful possible way.

My fiancee decided not to call her mother. We both sent cards, but since they haven't returned any of her calls and have barely acknowledged any other forms of communication since December... yeah.

I called my mother and did the standard Happy Mother's Birthday thing - and then spent more time talking to my dad. Mom seems to be spearheading the 'yes but DO YOU HAVE A [FULL-TIME] JOB YET?' thing now that I'm out of the house, which just makes everything awkward, and Dad and I are having an easier time talking. He asked if I'm still writing (I am) and whether I'd submitted anything (I haven't, largely because I haven't written anything publishable and partly because I don't know where to start looking for calls) and left it at that.

On the topic of home improvement you're glad to miss, my parents have refinished the floors in the front of the house literally for the first time since we moved in (that'll be 20 years in the fall). And it turns out the window frame on the only north-facing window that didn't get replaced when I was ten has dry-rotted itself out of existence. Mom's also expressed interest in repainting the living and dining rooms (where all this excitement is going down), but Dad said the floors aren't quite done yet, so they haven't done that.

My fiancee and I also observed that, at least in the work and church circles we've been able to see in action, the local culture treats Mother's Day as 'hey, all ladies are awesome, whether you have kids or not.' We both grew up in places that are more 'only if you have a kid.' I think I like the 'all ladies are awesome' version.

Called my mother to wish her a Happy Mother's Day.

Got to listen to her tell me all about how my brother is feeling down because he quit his totally dead end job to move in with my parents so he can look for something better. He's been unemployed for a few weeks now and is kinda sad about it.

I've been unemployed for two years.

I knew there was a reason I was playing sudoku on my phone trying to avoid making that call.

(Lee, thank you so, so much for your post @184)

Dear Gnomes, I promise that when my scallops are cooked tomorrow, I will save you a portion. They're frozen at the moment but I promise to add extra garlic to make up for their lateness. Could I have my extra spaces back please?

Hey, I just now realized at ten something at night that I have never once thought about my own mother, all day long. Same as my father on Fathers' Day. I got to enjoy my Mothers' Day flowers, movie, and getting-out-of-chores without any taint. In fact, right now, she's sort of a flat image in my mind's eye, like an old photograph. I would have to sit here and think for a bit to pull up the old bad memories. I can choose not to have them on instant replay.

Wow.

That's pretty awesome.

Dash, #185: Ouch. Sympathies. Your mother sounds... rather disconnected from reality.

Type A Toad, #193: Yeah, that's just all kinds of special. And not in the good way.

J., #195: That is awesome. Go you!

Jacque, THANK YOU for the meta model information. We have a family trip in July with my Sister-in-Law-From-Hell, and I am already starting to lose sleep, freak out, and get really stressed. This is really, really helpful, because SILFH makes Pronouncements, and my mother has decreed that no one is to argue with her, ever. I have the flashcards bookmarked at work and at home, and I am hoping to be ready to deflect at least most of her nastiness by July.

Blue @197: my mother has decreed that no one is to argue with her, ever.

And that's the beauty of the Meta-Model. One can cleverly disguise one's challenges as simple, innocent, information-gather questions.

Mwa-ha-hah. Good luck, and may the Force be with you.

(One is moved to wonder why your mother thinks SILFH's opinion should be sacrosanct, but that's another question altogether.)

information-gathering

Yeesh.

Witnessing.

Codemonkey, I hope everything is going well with you.

Likewise ma larkey, wherever you are.

Jacque @198
Because she is sensitive, and if she gets her nose out of joint, we will never see her kids again. And I'm older, so I should be more mature. It's crazy making.

Bam@182 - I don't want to be hlepy, but I just want to say as a therapist, I've had a few people interpret me looking at the clock as not wanting to hear what they have to say. That's not it. It's that for various reasons it's really important for sessions to begin and end at their appointed times as much as possible, so I always have to budget time in my head. So I'm thinking, "It's really important for her to talk about this, but I've only got 20 minutes left, and if I want to talk about journalling homework this week it's going to take five or ten minutes to fine-tune the assignment into something useful, and after this story we're going to have to talk about these issues I see so that'll take five minutes, maybe ten, so should I just let her keep going and dump the journalling because this is important or should I try to wrap it up or...?"

So it is really, really not about wanting to get my clients out of the office. It's wanting to do all the mental work of knowing when it's okay just to spill and when it's time to move along for them, so they don't have to be the one wondering if they've talked for too long.

Uuunfortunately, it backfires sometimes. :/ And it makes me sad that sometimes that backfire means the person is less likely to seek help in the future.

I'm thinking that maybe I am too immature to move out -- last Wednesday my mam moaned at me because I'd taken the keys for my money tin with me, meaning that she'd had to use her own money to pay my £20 car tax bill that arrived that day! (I paid her it back once I got in from work.)

One of the things she said (as a moan, rather than something she seriously considered) was "maybe I should have got you up on Saturday for you to go and pay it yourself, instead of me doing this favour for you?" I put the keys back where they were as I was caught off guard and wasn't in the mood to actually defend boundaries. I think one of my problems is that I (psychologically) find it almost impossible to confront my mother about anything -- this may in part be due to intimidation, but mainly because of the sense that however miserable my own life is, my mother's life is a hundred times worse. At least I (for instance) get to be in a more-or-less normal environment while at work!

(Of course, if I had proper boundaries in place, she wouldn't have been opening my car tax bill anyway when it arrived in the post, but it's a interesting insight into her way of thinking -- she definitely thinks she's acting for my own good here.)

On the matter of why she doesn't like me taking my bank card with me -- she also says she's afraid I'd lose my card (and she also gets my dad to withdraw her own money at the ATM on a similar basis, so it's not as if she's singling me out). When Dad was in hospital, Mam got me to get her money out of the bank while on the way to the shops.

Despite everything (including a heart in hiding's comment that her decision to keep my bank books in her room amounts to an act of war), I still view my mother as "victim" (or at worst "questionable") rather than "enemy". I'm thinking of how Moonlit Night mentioned that at least her mother wasn't saddled with a disabled child and a borderline-unemployable husband! I'm also not worried about her draining my bank accounts or destroying my possessions -- both because such acts would definitely put her in the "enemy" column in my mind (and I suspect she realizes this), and also because it would seem right out of character for her. If she did buy herself something nice I'd be pleased for her (possibly even to the extent that I'd be willing to forgive the fact that she took my money to buy it without asking), and she's only ever deliberately destroyed someone's possessions on one occasion (some of my dad's vinyl records -- in reprisal for my dad breaking lots of my mam's things through his carelessness).

As an aside, my parents were indeed overcharged (by close to £200) on the winter gas bill -- we discovered this when the spring bill arrived this month, with a gas component of only about £40!

Lee @S&T 914: The giant flaw in the Inherited Obligation worldview is that it provides a shelter for abusive behavior, putting the burden on the victim to take it without complaining because FAMILY.

Doesn't the Negotiated Commitment worldview contain an equally giant flaw though: that it presupposes the existence of a generous welfare state (which in ConDem Britain, is increasingly in doubt)? Perhaps my mother is also traumatized by the privation our family (along with many others in the local area) suffered during the 1984 miners' strike? There's also the fact that that my mother cared for her own parents for so long -- my grandfather was a coal miner who was forced to retire at 60 by ill-health, and my mother actually moved out of Peterlee back to her parents' village (even though this meant moving into an inferior house) when I was a baby, specifically so that she'd be there to look after them if need be.

Codemonkey, 203: she'd had to use her own money to pay my £20 car tax bill that arrived that day!

OH MY GOD WHAT, no, that's not okay. Go back and look at the bill. I will eat your mother's toaster if it's got a deadline less than a week away. She had NO RIGHT and NO NEED to do that. She is lying to you again.

You think of your mother as a victim because that's how she has carefully trained you. Suppose she accidentally broke your hard drive. Would you then deliberately smash all of her crockery? No you would not, because you are not an abuser. Your mother *is* an abuser, and she is harming you. I don't care why she's the way she is--I care about getting you out. You can help her AFTER you save yourself.

Codemonkey @203

You know what happens when you live alone? You pay your car tax when you get home from work instead of your mother doing it first. Maybe you pay it late. Maybe there's a fee. It sounds like you can afford that. Alternately, you learn to be really careful about that stuff, and pay it as early as possible.

Hell, I just bounced a rent check, because I screwed up some transfers between accounts and didn't realize it until it was too late. Bouncing a rent check is a way bigger deal than a late car tax payment, right? You know what happened? My landlord called me up, I said "Oh shit, sorry," I sent another check to cover the NSF fee, and that was that. (It helps that I've been here almost three years with only the occasional late check, and that I'm a quiet, undemanding tenant. It also helps that a couple times, she's called me to say my rent was late and I've sent another check, only to have both checks arrive the next day with postmarks verifying my claim to have sent the first one in on time. But that's not superhuman stuff, that's just basically doing okay and building up a track record.)

You probably aren't a perfect adult. No other adult is either. Your mother's standards are way higher than the standard the real world will hold you to. You will be okay. You'll probably do a lot better than I do, and you know what? I've been living on my own for almost a decade now, screwing up a lot of stuff that doesn't matter and a few things that did, and still doing just fine.

Codemonkey @203, do you know how to tell if you're mature enough to move out?

Move out.

The ABSOLUTE WORST THING that will happen (and I really, really doubt that it will) is that you'll fail to live successfully on your own and you'll have to move back with your mam.

Which puts you right back where you already are.

But if you don't move out, you'll never know if you can live on your own... until your mam and dad die, and then you'll have no choice, and no time to learn how to live on your own, and twenty years more inertia of learned helplessness.

Remember; everyone makes mistakes when they first live on their own. EVERYONE. They can be embarrassing, and sometimes expensive, but they are not generally life-threatening or important. You might forget to pay a bill on time. You know what? People who have lived on their own for twenty years forget to pay bills on time; you pay the late penalty and move on. You might forget to buy groceries and run out; you know what? Peanut butter or tuna fish on crackers makes an ok dinner until you can get to the store (speaks the voice of experience)....

Please, please, please, sign that lease. Remember, it's a LEASE, not a mortgage; you can go home to your mam after a year if things don't work out. This is NOT a permanent decision; it's a trial period. Give yourself a chance to try.

It seems like both TexAnne and Devin zeroed in on the first paragraph I wrote, ignoring the rest of my post! Of course there was no urgency in that tax bill (as long as it was paid before the end of the month it would have been OK) -- if I had been living on my own I'd have probably paid it the next day during my lunch break (I'm pretty sure that a bill like that is paid at the Post Office).

My point about how I was "immature" about my passive response to the way in which my mother decided to pay the bill for me. (As opposed to aggressively defending the new boundary I'd decided to set re my money tin.)

And the reason I want to understand her is the hope that it may help me work out how to get permission to leave (given that I now have an inkling for what leaving without permission could unleash).

Codemonkey, on late bills: one of my roommates is very good at spending exactly as much money as she has. Part of this is not paying bills until she gets a, "No, seriously, pay this," notice. She'll pay two or three months at a time when the late notices pile up enough. It is a way to be.

I have a lot of sympathy for your mother, as do you. She's in a very difficult situation and she doesn't see a way out.

Her methods of coping with it and interacting with you, though, are not functional. Opening your mail is not functional. Belittling you is not functional. Moving the goalposts when she isn't outright changing the game is not functional. I can guess at her motives, I can feel bad for her situation, but even if I give her every single benefit of the doubt, I support you moving out.

Even if your mother's motives are pure as the driven snow, even if she genuinely wants what's best for you, even if she will be happy for you when you succeed, this household is not working for you. Your mother's motives matter less than her actions. If, in desperation, she is acting like a malicious abuser, it is appropriate to treat her like one. When your relationship is more functional, you can address the desperation rather than writing her off as a malicious abuser. But it is appropriate to judge her actions rather than her intent.

This sounds like an oxygen-mask situation. You will be better able to help your mother* when you are safe yourself.

*though you don't have to feel obligated to do so

Codemonkey #207: Dude, you are not going to get permission. That would mean your mother having to admit that she's lost, and that you're not going to be her thrall for the rest of her life if not longer. You need to get out now and deal with her retaliation as the next problem.

When I discussed with my former teacher (on Facebook, if that matters) about her phone conversation with my mother, she mentioned that my mother had questioned my ability to manage independent living (re cooking, cleaning, budgeting, drying my hair etc). The ex-teacher never mentioned my mam saying anything about how I couldn't be allowed to leave because I was needed at home...

Codemonkey @210: That's because 'needed at home' is a problem with a clear solution (getting her more help), whereas "Codemonkey just can't HANDLE it! Ha ha ha he's so funny and immature, I have to take care of him" implies there is no solution, ever, you have to just stay and stay.

Codemonkey @210

drying my hair etc

Drying your hair? SERIOUSLY? Look, I'm a functioning, independent adult (well, I'm married, but I'm perfectly competent to live on my own as well). I'm probably close to twenty years older than you, and mostly neurotypical, as best as I know.

I have waist-length hair. And I don't bother to dry it. Ever. (Well, unless I'm going out to dinner or something and having wet hair would be rude, but I mostly shower in the morning.)

I live in a cold climate; it gets well below freezing for most of the winter. And I leave for work in the morning with (gasp) wet hair. (The heater in the car mostly dries it by the time I get to work.) I've never gotten pneumonia.

Although the time I went to check the mailbox and my hair froze in the thirty seconds I was outside was... interesting. (The temperature that day was approximately -26 degrees C.) My hair sounded like tiny, high-pitched windchimes tinkling by my ears... <grin>

If she's clutching at straws like "drying your hair" (and I seriously doubt you have as much hair to dry as I do!) then she's just desperate to keep you home. I really, really doubt that she'll ever give you permission; if you wait for permission, you're just never going to leave.

Cassy

Codemonkey: I agree with Dave. You will never get your mother's permission to leave as long as she lives. She will probably try to guilt you into staying after she dies, too, for the rest of your life.

The good news is you don't need anyone's permission, you can leave today.

You know, it's important to talk about this DF stuff, but it's also wonderful to run across a counterexample. (From Terri DiSilva's blog.)

Codemonkey: We're zeroing in on the car tax bill because that's an important piece of the puzzle as well. She doesn't need to open your bill and pay it; you're right there! And it's not like you were in danger of missing the due date.

(In college, because I was Weird about online banking and my bill was never that bad, my credit card bill went to my parents' house rather than my dorm. The college's mail-forwarding system was slow enough that I would run a real possibility of missing the due date, otherwise. When I was home over the summers, and after I moved back in, I resumed responsibility for it.)

Also... given what you've said about your father's deteriorating health, I wouldn't trust him with my ATM card. There's a real chance he'd lose the card just because his brain is no longer functioning completely as it once did, or even simply forget where he put it.

On the topic of whether you're mature enough, you certainly present yourself quite maturely here. Parent-child dynamics can be pretty weird when the child gets older; my parents were nowhere near as bad as some discussed on this thread, but one of my biggest problems when I lived there was that I'd revert to teenage processing whenever we got into an argument.

Your mother is a victim of bad circumstance, yes, but that is only a reason. It does not excuse her actions. She's still an unreliable narrator with impossibly high standards and a toxic person for you to be living with.

You're not going to get permission. Sign the lease and move.

I can grill up a grilled cheese for Your Lownesses. Garlic cheddar!

[The words "online banking" caused the delay. "Online baking," however, is fine. -- JDM]

Codemonkey, #203: You've already gotten a lot of good advice, but I'll recapitulate some of it here anyhow.

1) There was no need for your mother to freak out about the car tax bill. It could have waited until you got home, and no damage would have been done. Also, you're absolutely right that she should not be opening your mail in the first place, "favor" or not.

2) She's afraid you'll lose your bank card. This is what I describe as a "rabid squirrel" reaction -- my parents freaked out about me watching squirrels because they were convinced that any given squirrel in the yard MIGHT BE RABID OMG!!!! That she treats your father the same way reinforces my evaluation. This is a case of taking a very low-probability outcome and elevating it to the level of near-certainty, no matter how unrealistic that is. There's no more reason to think that you might lose your bank card than there is to think that I might... and I've carried mine in my wallet routinely for over 30 years and have never lost it once. It could happen -- someone might snatch my purse tomorrow -- but I'm not wasting time and energy fretting over the possibility.

3) I still view my mother as "victim" (or at worst "questionable") rather than "enemy".
These things are not mutually exclusive. She can be a victim herself and still behave in ways that qualify as "enemy action" toward you. One of the hardest things for a lot of people in damaging situations to grasp is that an action does not need to be maliciously intended to be harmful!

4) I hope you're right about the unlikelihood of her draining your accounts and/or damaging your things (or holding your important papers hostage). But to some extent, this is a risk-vs-consequences calculation. If you're right, but you take the precautions anyhow, no harm has been done to anyone, and the worst that happens is you've undertaken a little extra work. If you're wrong, and you fail to take the precautions, the results could be catastrophic for you.*

5) Was that overcharged figure for gas one of the ones she presented to you in her "this would be your budget" calculations?

6) The existence of a "welfare state" social safety net does make the Negotiated Commitment form of relationship easier, but it's not an essential. Remember that in non-abusive relationships, there's not a lot of difference between the two -- people who feel loved and respected by their parents are generally happy to take care of them, even if that requires some personal sacrifice. The place where the social safety net really makes a difference is for those who don't have an extended net of family relationships to call on.

7) I'm not surprised that you crumbled in the face of your mother moaning at you. She's spent DECADES training you to do exactly that! For a better evaluation of how "mature" you are about handling conflicts, look at how you deal with your boss and your co-workers. I'll bet you don't interact with them the same way you do with your mother.

8) You will never get her permission to leave. If you wait for that, you'll wait until she dies, and she may very well try to extract a "deathbed promise" from you that will bind you even beyond that. She wants you to agree to be the carer for your sister for the rest of your life. If you don't want that (which you have said you don't), then you need to take control of your life with or without her permission to do so.

"Nobody in the world, nobody in history, has ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense of the people who were oppressing them." That's good advice for individuals as well as for oppressed populations. Why would your mother ever agree to change a situation which has so many advantages for her?

and @210: Of course she wouldn't say anything about you being needed at home and so can't be allowed to leave! That would make her look selfish, and might draw criticism from her friend about, "Look, he needs to have his own life, and you need to find other solutions." But if she frames it as "Codemonkey can't take care of himself," that enlists the people she's talking to on her side of the argument. After all, she's just concerned about you...

And yeah, "drying your hair" WTF?? If you have a standard "masculine" hairstyle (which I'm betting you do), that's a complete non-starter -- most men's styles are wash-and-go.

* Another place you hear this kind of risk-vs-consequences analysis is for women who think there's something skeezy about a guy or a situation that she's in with a guy. If she's wrong, but she takes the precautions anyhow, the worst thing that may happen is the guy gets his feelings hurt. If she's right, and she ignores the "something isn't right here" feeling because of social conditioning, she can end up raped or dead.

Codemonkey @210, here's another thing to consider. Please ignore if hlepy, but I honestly believe what I'm going to say is true.

If you move out, she'll throw a tantrum. She'll yell, she'll moan, she'll say horrible things. It will be very, very hard.

But you've made it pretty clear (although you probably don't think of it this way) that your mam can't afford to do anything too drastic because SHE NEEDS YOU. She is NOT going to cut off contact with you. She's not going to stop you from visiting her, since you're practically the only social contact she has. She's not going to cut off contact between you and your sister or your father.

You actually have the power in this relationship, although she will never ever admit it. All she has is threats, and moans, and nasty comments about how ineffectual and helpless you are.

It's no wonder she thinks you're hopeless; she's been looking after you for so long, she probably thinks of you as a child. And to some degree, you will be awkward at first; a person who is never allowed to walk will have weak legs until they get some exercise; you've never been allowed autonomy and so you need to exercise those muscles.

There's a very old saying, and it's usually true. "It's better to seek forgiveness than ask permission." In this case, permission cannot and will not be granted. So go ahead and sign the lease.

Once you have a signed contract, all her whinging won't change that fact. And unless she wants to go to a judge and try to get you ruled as incompetant (and how will she explain the fact you completed school and hold down a job?) there's not a thing she can do to break your lease.

Codemonkey, you ARE living with an abusive person.

No rational adult destroys their life partner's treasures because that partner accidently broke some precious item of theirs...

As for the tax bill? I don't see immaturity, I see learned helplessness, or possibly resignation.

And having someone who is not able to do simple chores (your dad) take the money out of an ATM...robbery waiting to happen...sigh.

Frankly, I'm going to be surprised if you ever move out. To me it seems like she's got you too well trained to ever do so. Good luck taking care of your sister.

Sorry; @218 I was not gnomed. I didn't check my nym.

Codemonkey: I'm going to talk about that whole "he can't manage independent living" thing.

If your mother doesn't think you can manage independent living, how in the world does she think you can be a carer for your sister? If she thinks you can and should be a carer for your sister, then she has to think you are competent to care for yourself, too.

How else are you going to learn to manage independent living than by actually trying it? If, God forbid, something happens to your entire family tomorrow, then you'll HAVE to manage independent living, won't you? Far, far better to try it now, knowing that, if you truly can't hack it, you've got a safe harbour to go back to.

But you know what? I'm betting you can hack it. Yes, you'll burn some meals. Yes, you'll run out of underwear because you forgot to do laundry on time. Yes, a bill will fall behind the shelf or something and you'll get a "second notice". Note: these are all things that happened to me when I got my first apartment.

THESE SORTS OF THINGS HAPPEN. They, and other similar things, happen to pretty much everybody who is living independently for the first time. And the only way to learn how to handle them is to handle them. To learn to be a better, or at least more attentive, cook. To keep better track of the laundry. To have a bill-filing system.

There are things that you'll screw up as a newly independent adult living on your own. But you know what? It's not the end of the world. This is how you learn. You don't have to be perfect. You don't have to do things perfectly. You just have to learn, eventually, to get the most essential things done.

Back before I was married, I used to quip that I'd never marry anybody who had never lived on his own for at least six months, because there aren't any laundry fairies in my house. (I was wrong, there. There is a laundry fairy, and it's my husband. He's taken almost total charge of clothes-laundering. But he also knows that I'm perfectly competent to launder them myself when I need to!) And I'm the one in charge of fixing the plumbing and other simple home repairs.

Living by yourself shows you your blind spots, and it also teaches you to deal with them. By moving out now, you'll be acquiring those skills without the added stress of having no safe harbour in case of emergency. And you'll be getting your own stuff out of the way for the Council workers to do their thing.

A lease isn't a mortgage, as others have said. Think of it as training wheels. Someday, whether tomorrow or 20 years from now, you WILL be living independently. Isn't it best to acquire the skills when you're still young?

Sorry for the Giant Wall of Text.

Codemonkey,

I have a lot of sympathy for your mother.

I also have a lot of sympathy for you. You have spent years doing things her way. It's very hard to break those patterns.

I do not think it serves you well to go from doing what your mam tells you to doing what we tell you, so it's good that you question the advice you get here. I think this group as a whole is good at helping people think through their situation and their options. Many have practical advice from their own experience in dealing with difficult parents. In the end, whether or not you act is, of course, your decision.

But your situation as I understand it boils down to, "I want to be able to manage my own affairs and make my own decisions about my activities, like any independent adult, BUT I also don't want to upset my mam." Possibly with a side order (that your mother placed for you) of "BUT I'm not sure I'm competent to do so." And what you're hearing back, in one form or another, boils down to "You sound to us like you ARE competent to do this. But you cannot have both independence and family tranquility. Becoming more independent WILL upset your mam in the short run, even if it's better for everyone in the long run."

If there was nothing else going on in your family, you might gain increased independence without having to move out. You would be able to say things like, "Mam, please don't open my mail, I'll take care of my own bills," and she would say, "Oh, sorry," and change her behavior. You would negotiate things like when you were going out and when you were taking your mam shopping and find solutions that worked for both of you.

But in your current situation, it sounds like every single one of those interactions would be an unwinnable battle, with gaslighting and moved goalposts. It will wear you down, and even if it doesn't, I think that would be more stressful for your mam and for you, than making a clean break (by which I mean, moving out so that you handle things independently, not breaking off contact altogether.)

The downside to moving out is that, after giving it a serious and lengthy try, you decide you would rather live at home and you move back in. The downside to staying is that nothing changes.

In re the entire Codemonkey thread, a personal observation:

It was not until I had been living separately from, and largely not-seeing-at-all, both my parents for a period of 8-10 months that I was able to begin to notice just how MESSED UP the ways they interacted with me were. When my mom moved across the country and I got several years of only-occasional, very-distant phone and email contact, and then went to go stay with her for a week-long visit, the change was night and everloving day, and suddenly very, very visible to me.

I'd spent the time growing to fit a different pot, learning skills, interacting with people who DIDN'T have a detailed roadmap to every single frelling button I posess, etc. And then suddenly to be a more mature observer of patterns of hers that were largely unchanged? It was a shock, and very educational.

I think taking a 'trial separation' from a difficult situation, whether a marriage or whatever, can provide useful distance about whether the setup was actively harmful or whether there were just confounding circumstances (like overwhelming household stress, or in Codemonkey's case, his mother really needing access to a lot more help being a carer).

I'm not sure if you have to detox as thoroughly as I did -- I basically cut off all contact completely. Still, sunlight helps growth.

::FUME:: "You're laughing too loud! You're disturbing the clients!"

Um. I kinda doubt it. (I've sadly concluded that this particular coworker has no sense of humor, and is determined to force their humorlessness on everyone around hir.)

By the way, Codemonkey, the internet is full of "tips and tricks" tutorials, even for things like drying your hair. Sites like eHow and wikiHow pay (or paid) people by the instructional article, and some of them ran out of esoteric things to teach. So they wrote up mundane, everyday tasks.

YouTube is also full of how-to videos for basic life skills.

Treat these challenges like an unknown error message at work: ask people, Google, find reliable sites to go to for information. Given your educational and professional attainments, you've got the resources to manage any challenges that living on your own could throw at you. Seriously.

And remember that you can only learn by being free to make mistakes without someone standing over you, judging you, and calling you a failure if you're not perfect the first time. If you're not in an environment like that, you won't learn—but it won't be because you're unintelligent or incompetent.

My favorite first-apartment story was the time I proudly made dinner for my fiance from a cookbook. The coleslaw recipe called for 2 teaspoons chili sauce to give it a little zing. I had never heard of chili sauce, but obviously it was a sauce made from chili peppers. So I got out the Tabasco bottle and a teaspoon . . .

I did learn how to cook and he never teased me about the time I almost burned his tongue right off.

Once I visited my then-fiance, now-husband's apartment and agreed to cook the pasta for a get-together that evening. I asked how long the pasta should boil, and I have no idea what his actual answer was, but what I heard was "forty-five minutes."

I was on about minute 15, cheerfully stirring, before he thought to ask me why the pasta wasn't done!

On the flip side, one of my favorite memories is spending a week alone in a new apartment. (Husband was coordinating the move across two U.S. states while I went ahead and started my new job.) I missed him dreadfully, but the feeling of independence and accomplishment was astonishing.

Codemonkey: You have a PhD. In my experience, that means that you have demonstrated that you can enlarge the boundaries of human knowledge by doing original research. It also indicates that you manage to follow through and complete something. Both of those things are HARD compared to day to day life of getting the bills paid, fixing the car, and drying your hair.

If it helps, look on this as a research project, with you as chief experimenter and sole subject. Figure out what it takes to live as an empirical experiment.

The emotional parts are hard. I'm not going to discount that. But the mechanics of doing it are not. There's nothing there that persistence and the application of a little money won't get you through.

Codemonkey: That "immaturity" you perceive in your passive response to your mam's overcontrolling business with the tax bill is passivity she's trained into you. It doen't mean you're too immature to move out. It means that, as long as you stay, you won't mature past that. You need actual independence to build the habit of acting like an independent adult around your mother.

And I'll reiterate what many others have said: you are NOT going to get her permission to leave. Ever. She's made that clear. So you need to leave without that permission, and the sooner the better.

Maggie Scarf's Lies, Secrets, Betrayals has the best abstract description of emotional abuse I've seen-- the abuser maintains a stance of "I'm always right, you're always wrong". Along with everything else, it's an epistomological attack.

It is impossible to please or convince someone who's emotionally committed to that stance.

Codemonkey @203: everybody reverts somewhat to earlier roles when dealing with their parents, even after years or decades away. It is an annoying parental superpower that shows up as a running joke in lots of books and movies. So don't be too harsh on yourself for not flipping like a switch, when your mam has spent your lifetime and more training the rest of you that if you go up against her, you will be sorry and you won't succeed anyway. (It's the two-fer that makes it work really well.) It is going to take time and distance to undo that.

Your mam's role (victim/abuser/martyr/...) is not simple or singular. It is plural, complex, and intertwined. Given the close resemblance to my mother, the role you need to understand best is martyr, because it's the keystone of the structure. Martyrdom starts with family/social needs/expectations putting the martyr-to-be into a trap. The trap is a situation that's demanding, unhappy and hurtful, the kind of situation where you give up your growth or dreams for a goal. The goal is usually a worthy thing, like someone else's safety or health or happiness. At minimum it will have been presented as such to the martyr-to-be. The martyr is stuck in a bind where they can't meet the needs and expectations of others while also taking care of themselves and having room to grow. They can't win by the rules, but they also can't or won't give up, and either can't or don't think of changing the rules. When this keeps up long-term, without enough rest and replenishment and joy to make up for the outlay, something gives. What gives is the martyr's ability to give. Something that was willing service at the start turns into duty and obligation, and finally to self-imposed slavery. The martyr gets more and more trapped and damaged, more and more resentful. And the damage and resentment oozes out like poison, even from actions that are well-meant.

The pressures of martyrdom are how your mam ends up doing unacceptable things all the while believing it's for your own good. What the unacceptable things really do is to undergird the martyrdom. People stuck in martyrdom do unacceptable things to themselves for the sake of other people, and so they have to dull their perception of what's unacceptable, to tolerate what they're doing to themselves. It's understandable that a martyr will NEED their sacrifice to be worth making, but this is where it gets dangerous. A long-term martyr starts needing martyrdom to be the only viable option, because if there were solutions that could have satisfied the others *and* themselves, then what was the point of all that pain? That's a painful, mournful question to answer. To avoid the question, they have to go on martyring, so they NEED to prove to themselves and others that the martyrdom and the pain are the only way to achieve the goal. They need so badly for the sacrifice to be worthwhile that they will distort their own and other's perceptions, trap us, martyr us, constrain our growth and our dreams, do unacceptable things to make us need them, all so that they can sustain their ability to martyr themselves some more for us in an endless loop.

The most effective means you have to decisively set new boundaries and change expectations -- theirs and yours -- is to make a clean break between old and new, so that nobody can pretend there's no meaningful difference. People run in grooves a lot of the time, like broken records, especially in dysfunctional families like ours. Your mam's house is part of the groove walls -- by which I mean both the physical house, and the patterns of behaviour you associate with it, especially it being your mam's territory. Right now you're trying to climb up the sheer cliff wall of a groove many decades deep, and to haul the others along with you. But moving out is one of the biggest clean breaks there is -- that's picking up the needle and setting it on fresh vinyl so that you can record entirely new grooves, ones that don't infringe on your autonomy or competence. Against the new music, the old stuff will be dissonant and stand out. Your family scratching the needle across the record to get back to the old groove will really stand out, just as Bricklayer was saying in #223 -- the same effect happened to me, once I was ready to notice it.

The old patterns will try to linger, though. Be on the lookout for that and don't beat yourself up when you fall back into old habits. Just get back into your new intended pattern and don't get worried so long as you're making progress.

Moonlit Night, holy cats, your analysis of martyrdom and acceptable/unacceptable behavior is so perfect I want to share it with everyone. It resonates.

Diamatrya @232: I spent a substantial chunk of time the last several years doing my best to figure out how my mother ticks, and therefore how I am pre-inclined to tick, because I really need to understand it to escape it. But of course, to sustain the surface calm, I can't ask her about how the most disturbing recesses of her mind work; I have to observe and extrapolate and infer. So I could be wrong, but this theory fits the evidence I do have well.

Sacrifice is one of the most human abilities -- most heroic, most tragic, most vulnerable to dysfunction and abuse. I have been thinking lately about what factors tip sacrifice from heroic and tragic into burnt-out, dysfunctional and abusive. So far I think the key factors are duration, intensity (ratio of rest and replenishment to sacrifice), and proof of value. Is there a defined point where it will be enough, or be over, which allows for informed/enthusiastic consent? Is it a short burst, a slow trickle, or a continual heavy bleeding? Is there clear and adequate proof that the sacrifice is worthwhile and appreciated by its target? Is the goal big enough to be worth the price being paid?

People usually think of sacrifice as something priceless, but the entire point is that the person making it pays a price. Based on these threads and what I hear about psychology, I'd say there is such a thing as emotional economics. Sacrifice is a bargain, a cost paid to obtain a good, and as such it has a spectrum of affordability. An affordable sacrifice can be treated as saving to repay a debt or make an investment, temporary pain for a long-term benefit, or a slow trickle that can be accommodated for. But some sacrifice bargains are more like indentures or enslavements, and those, I think, are the ones that twist the people paying them, because they haven't got enough left over to live on after making their payments. That leaves them the emotional equivalent of perpetually hungry, cold, and ragged. And when you get hungry, cold and ragged enough, you steal to survive.

Seconding Diatryma, what a great analysis. Really resonates with how I found myself trapped in martyrdom by my ex-husband; it did take a calculation of the emotional economy of staying versus leaving to get me out. There was clearly a point where the slow trickling-away of value crossed the line of personal expense. It's so hard not to become a slave to sunk costs, though.

Someone explored this using the metaphor of the burden and the bearing wall. IOW, a family is like a house. Some parts of the house hold up others. BUT--in a functional family, people take turns being the burden and the bearing wall.

Taking this metaphor further, if somebody develops a heavy emotional investment in being the bearing wall all the time, then there has to be a burden. And if nobody in the family is feeling burden-y, then by golly the wannabe bearing wall will make them one.

But, Codemonkey, all this is a group of blindfolded people feeling around a patient elephant. We can offer some detailed critiques of particular features, but you can step back and see the whole picture.

As a formerly enmeshed daughter, I strongly advise stepping back--physically. Or more precisely, stepping out.

I also like Moonlit Night's analysis of martyrdom.

I will point out that I can think of several religious/mythical/narrative accounts of martyrdom (including my own Christianity) that emphasize the importance of the voluntary nature of the sacrifice. Voluntary sacrifice for a worthwhile cause is noble. ("It is a far, far better thing...") Voluntary sacrifice when a less costly option was available but unknown is tragic. Voluntary sacrifice well in excess of the value of the cause, or ignoring a less costly alternative, is more pathetic than anything else.

And demanding that someone else make a significant sacrifice they haven't chosen? Is misguided at best, and probably abusive.

Moonlit night: another factor in the sacrifice equation: Is there a feasible alternative that will accomplish the same goal?

I'm thinking of a friend of my parents', who categorically refused to accept any help whatsoever in caring for her husband (including the help of their adult children). The husband was much larger, much stronger, and afflicted with severe dementia that often made him belligerent.

She died (more or less from exhaustion). Shortly after her death, he was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer.

I can't help but think that had she accepted help, not only might she have lived longer (though that might not have been a plus from her point of view), but her kids wouldn't have lost both parents in quick succession, and her husband would probably have gotten better care, to boot.

Sacrifice is sometimes necessary. Sometimes, not so much.

Drawn out of hiding by abi's #166.

Thank you so much for saying that, about Aspergers and input channel issues. That bit of info puts a whole bunch of things into context for me.

Update: Now using insulin pump, as of last Monday. Things are better in some ways but also feel more precarious, I think. I don't know how to talk about it right now. I'm looking into college programs and employment support stuff. I've fallen a bit behind on reading the thread but I'm still here.

Re: cutlery/truth. I think I'm in the truth-shouting camp. I tend to say stuff that I believe is true, in an attempt to convince the other party or get them to back off. What made me realize that was something I said the last time I argued with my dad. I basically told him flat-out that I don't like him, and some other related truths that would require more context than I'm prepared to explain right now.

Funny thing I realized: I'm very sincere, in that I have trouble hiding/not expressing my emotions or putting up a front. (Conversely, my mother can be so mad she's swearing a blue streak and still answer the phone politely, most of the time. Then once she's off the phone it's right back to the yelling.) Also I feel like I don't know how to argue a point that I don't believe, which was probably part of why I struggled with essays in high school. That also makes doing positive affirmations really tricky. I know that saying something is supposed to reinforce my belief in it, but it's hard when I can't bring myself to say it in the first place. I'm trying to get around that block by approaching it from other angles.

(Maybe everyone's bad at this at some point, but they do it anyway and get better with practice. So I'm not so much ill-suited to pretending/acting as inexperienced?)

Codemonkey, an addendum to what I said @217 about the social safety net: the other thing that it does is provide people in unhealthy family situations with choices. It is little wonder that many people who believe in the Inherited Obligation family model loathe the social safety net with a passion -- and the more dysfunctional or abusive their treatment of their families, the more they hate it. If there's no unbreakable net of familial obligation to chain their victims into their roles, if there's another option out there, those victims might LEAVE.

IMO, whenever you hear someone ranting about how the "welfare state" encourages children to turn their backs on their parents, there's a better-than-even chance that you're listening to a parent who has damn good cause to worry about that happening -- and not because the children are selfish little ingrates, either.

Lee: I think you're on to something there. One of the basic household rules we had when our kids were little is "you can't pick on someone who can't get away", e.g. on car trips. It helped. (Though I have to say my kids did and still do get along remarkably well.)

Lee@184: Thank you for this.

Moonlit Night @231: This is so helpful to see spelled out like this. Thank you. (As someone who comes from a long line of martyrs and has to constantly fight that programming).

Phenicious @238: Funny thing I realized: I'm very sincere, in that I have trouble hiding/not expressing my emotions or putting up a front. ... (Maybe everyone's bad at this at some point, but they do it anyway and get better with practice. So I'm not so much ill-suited to pretending/acting as inexperienced?)

I think that people who are neurotypical can find this hard sometimes too, otoh, I think it's something that can be extra-hard sometimes if you are on the spectrum (bearing in mind that each of us experiences that spectrum in our own unique way). For me, it manifests as sometimes spending a lot more spoons than I think probably the average person does for roughly the same outward result. (Also means that when I'm low on spoons, my more "autistic" traits are closer to the surface).

Practice and experience can help, and being aware of how one's spoon supply affects/is affected by the effort can help. Reminders that one is not alone can help, too. If this post (and the links it contains) on authenticity, by Lynne Soraya at Asperger's Diary, were in hard copy form, I would have worn the pages out by now. :)

Two links, sorry.

I'm afraid I don't have much to offer at the moment. Cocoa perhaps?

We did a belated Mother's Day thing yesterday - took Mom out for high tea. :) It was lovely, and we actually had a great time!

It was still stressful as hell.

Between talking to Spouse, therapist, and good friend, I figured out why. The reason it was fun was that I've drawn a map of the minefield. I know exactly what facts not to mention, what details of my life not to let slip, and what topics not to bring up. So, we have a really good visit. But I'm still investing tons of energy into the conversation in a way that isn't visible - remembering what not to tell her, or guiding the conversation away from land mines.

Helps when I feel guilty that I still don't want to spend time with her.

Success?

Chickadee, #243: That's a good analysis. So what's happening is that you're like the duck -- from the shore, it looks as though you're just floating serenely along, but you're paddling like hell under the surface! And yes, that's going to be tiring and spoon-draining, and small wonder that you don't want to spend any more time doing it than you absolutely have to.

Still, I would say that having the map does indeed count as a success.

Lee, #244: Thank you. A duck - that's a great image. :)

If I may share an image my husband came up with, for dealing with times when I feel inadequate or with self hatred:

(background: I often try to deal with distressing situations with "rational voice" - what are the real consequences of screwing up, what disaster will (not) happen if I don't get it right, etc.)

Picture yourself as a kitten up a tree. Cats *cannot* climb backwards. Literally, the only way down is to jump or be carried. You're scared, probably hurting, and panicking.

Rational voice is at the bottom of the tree with the ladder, trying to get the kitten down. Yelling at the kitten (telling yourself your feelings are illegitimate, saying "you should be over this by now," etc.) will not get the kitten down. In fact, it will scare the kitten further up the tree.

Be gentle with the kitten. Speak softly, and carry a dish of tuna. Soothe. Love.

In this way, you can deal with the panic attack/self hatred/frustration much more efficiently and effectively, and help to stop the cycle of self-hatred.

He only came up with it yesterday, and it's already been really helping. :) Figured it might help someone else here.

I like the duck analogy—it's useful for those things that look easy and effortless and are anything but.

Good success, Chickadee, and I'm glad you don't have to discharge that obligation more often, since it takes a lot out of you.

Another thought about the duck analogy: When I'm feeling terribly inadequate compared to other people, it's useful to remember they might be ducks. Even if they appear calm and in control, they might be paddling like mad under the surface.

Persephone @ 227

Forensic linguistics suggests that what your fiance intended was "four to five minutes". WIthout context, the two phrases are essentially indistinguishable.

Chickadee: I have a close relative with whom, on a much smaller scale, I have to practice the same "remembering where all the mines are" technique. So I know what you mean, and I agree--it's draining, in the same way monitoring a textbook reading or following a conversation in ASL is--because you have to pay close attention every second. You can't let your mind wander AT ALL.

(I should clarify that ASL remark: that applies to me, as a very imperfect user of ASL. I'm sure that for a fluent user, although you still have to keep your eyes on the signer, the attention factor is much more relaxed and includes some "autopilot".)

I now feel obliged to mention that the duck analogy is not original with me. I don't remember where I picked it up, but the context was definitely "something that takes a lot more effort than it looks like from outside".

Heather Rose Jones, #248: Thank you for mentioning that. I'd been wondering what it could have been, and that does make perfect sense.

Many people here have pointed out that old habits are hard to break. I once asked Someone Who Knew, how long it took.

Forty tries. FORTY.

(I interpret this as thirty to fifty.)

So, to all those people out there who are beating themselves up because "I've tried over a dozen times to stop this", please know that you've made a good beginning, but that it is really, really, REALLY hard.

An exchange on Twitter between @scalzi and @chaosprime a few days ago, in which the latter mentioned cargo cult asshole behavior (someone sees people winning by being assholes, and tries to become a huge asshole to win harder) made me come up with a General Cargo Cult Theory of the Quest for Happiness:

See (seemingly) happy people. Get it wrong about what makes said people happy. Copy wrong things. This doesn't work, so copy harder. Rinse, repeat. Damage may occur to self and others.

It is so so very hard to recognize this going on in oneself or in other people, especially if it's sincere and well-intentioned. And it is so so very hard to tease out the individual habits that make up this approach from the ones that are actually helpful, and harder still to break them. Strength to all of us who are trying. I'm still reading, witnessing, and struggling along.

#253, Pendrift:

I suspect a similar type of cargo-cult thinking applies to the relentlessly happy "think positive thoughts and good things will come your way!!!" people.

I wonder if they see successful and happy people being happy and thinking good thoughts and all the stuff they promote, and completely miss the work it took to get there, the risks those people took that others tried as well but didn't get the same success, the unacknowledged privilege that gave them a leg up, and all the other factors, and latch onto the "think positive thoughts" part alone.

While I acknowledge that having a generally positive outlook makes it easier to both see and take advantage of opportunities (and conversely, depression and anxiety make it incredibly difficult to see and act on them) thinking positive thoughts alone doesn't create these opportunities and it certainly doesn't magically make everything better.

Also, do you happen to have a link to that conversation? I don't follow twitter but it sounds like it would be interesting to read.

the invisible one @254: I think this link captures most of the conversation, but I'm not very skilled in the ways of tweet-linking. You might have to click "expand conversation" a few times to expand some of the side-branches.

And now we'll see if linking to the little blue bird gets me gnomed...

As I expected, a link into the guts of the little blue bird has brought me to the attention of the gnomes. Perhaps some Trader Joe's chocolate granola for the diminutive masters of the regexes?

Reading; witnessing.

Today I picked up the copy of my records from the current clinic. There are so many lies in there... says I refuse to use a certain type of inhaler, without mentioning that using it gives me severe tachycardia; lists various psych disorders I *don't* have, up to and including suicidal ideation; and I've only skimmed the 100 or so pages. Says I have a history of alcohol abuse. (Um, no.) Says I'm currently experiencing suicidal ideation. (Really, no.) It's so far from true it would be funny, except... well, these are the records that follow me to next doctor and color their treatment of me, if I don't figure out how to handle it. I've got not quite two weeks to calm down and figure this out.

Is it/would it be inappropriate for me to go through, correct falsehoods, and give it to the new doctor, with a comment about "apparently my last doctor didn't listen very well"? Because there is so much absence of truth there.

I just... I don't get it. What's [Doctor]'s payoff for doing this? I'm angry, and bewildered, and and and...

Pendrift #253: I'd see that cargo-culting as a common example of a more general issue: people (or other "actors") who don't take feedback, are likely to become a hazard to those around them, and even to themselves. (They're also likely to become assholes. ;-) )

That is, getting a wrong idea is one thing. ("If you can't make mistakes, you can't make anything" and so forth.) But the next step is reality-testing and responding to the results, and that's where cargo-culters fail.

Reading and witnessing.

Chickadee @ 243: That's rather like my visits with my mother. There have been times when the only safe topics of conversation were the weather and my sister's children. Seriously. So I always have to gather myself up, because even when we're off to an event together and thus have a ready-made conversational topic, I have to be ready to catch myself and not talk about certain things, and either stop my response to things she might say or be ready with lots of precise facts (she of course sees no need to be able to prove what she says, because her opinions are self-evident truths). So it takes up energy.

The Occasionally Good @257: Sympathies, and well done in getting the records. I've asked a GP (general practitioner, UK) I know what might be the best approach for this and this is what's been suggested: get an appointment with your new doctor. State that you've changed doctors, that you asked to look at your records and that you're really unhappy because so much of what's in there just doesn't seem right to you. Then give just a couple of examples: "for example it says I have a history of alcohol abuse and I really don't, and there's no evidence for such a history. Similarly I did say I couldn't use X inhaler, but that's because it gave me such horrible tachycardia." Then see if the new doctor responds sympathetically/reasonably, or not. I hope this is helpful.

Good things, bad things, exhausting things.

My in-laws have been in town for a week, which is not bad in itself. In theory, it can mean getting a respite from being my kid's primary carer. It also means I get to converse with my FiL, whom I adore, and get him to keep me company on long walks, which is very good.

In practice I've still been kidcare primary all week except for a good stretch yesterday.

Because of the granddad-in-town, we decided that Beka should skip this entire calendar week of school, so she's home MWTh when she'd usually be somewhere Not My Problem.

However, my inlaws go home this afternoon. Tomorrow afternoon, a different friend comes to stay the night before they, Beka, and I roadtrip up to WisCon for the long weekend ... and I get to be a single parent (with good daycare coverage during the day) for a further five straight days. ARRGH.

I'm kind of wiped today even thinking about it. However, I do feel mighty for standing up and saying yesterday that my FiL should watch the kid indoors while I planned, bought materials for, engineered, and installed a new (bigger, better designed, in the right place) sandbox in our yard. It took most of the day and it was tiring, but differently tiring than kid-chasing all day, so that's good? It's also something we've been about-to-do for months and now IT IS DONE YO.

Today I get to try to catch up on laundry and start packing clothes for me and the kid so it's not all still left to do at dinnertime tomorrow.

Oh, and I have to take the kid to her swim lesson in two hours, which is a triggery noisy mess that usually ends with her pissed off, oppositional, punching me, and running away towards cars. FUN! At least if Granddad is done checking out of his hotel and down here in time to go with, maybe I can do some weightlifting down the hall at the Y while he sits on the pool surround for half an hour in my stead.

The best thing about the upcoming long single-parent weekend for me is that my spouse will have nearly a whole calendar week on his own to bachelor it, get things done 'without us underfoot', bicycle to work every day, and suchlike, which should rest and respoon him admirably. I hope like hell it makes him more willing to step in and give me occasional respites, and improves his mood in general, because that would be awesome.

Dave Harmon @258: That is, getting a wrong idea is one thing. ("If you can't make mistakes, you can't make anything" and so forth.) But the next step is reality-testing and responding to the results, and that's where cargo-culters fail.

I agree. What I tried to express (too pithily, it seems) is that we all get wrong ideas for any number of reasons, and fail at reality-testing for a long time not out of sheer contrariness but because we're programmed not to respond to the results, aka Goddamn Tapes and their ilk.

Wrong ideas from what parents, or other authority figures, or partners, or society, tell us will make us happy, and we trust and believe them and want to live up to those ideals. People who tell us that if only we did such and such a thing everything would be great, then keep moving the goalposts. People who genuinely want us to be happy - but on their terms. Not having the self-confidence to speak up and assert our own needs, for often complex reasons. People who don't respect our agency. Not having good role models for healthy and functional relationships so that we don't know what those are supposed to look like. And so on and so forth.

When most of our energy is spent trying to live up to impossible standards or to meet unattainable goals, and then beating ourselves up for our failure to do so, there's precious little of it left for realizing that we're trapped in a cargo-cultish dynamic. The form is easier to chase because it's visible; people know what the house-spouse-white picket fence-perfect job-fat bank account-gorgeous figure and 2.4 kids model looks like. The invisibility of the function (the kindness, respect, consideration, empathy, compassion, generosity, love, and sharing that are keys to happiness—regardless of form—are all intangible) is what makes it so elusive.

Phenicious @238: affirmations ... Maybe everyone's bad at this at some point, but they do it anyway and get better with practice. So I'm not so much ill-suited to pretending/acting as inexperienced?

WRT affirmations, see my comment to somewhere_else & Lila elsethread. Shorter me: I don't even try.

WRT masking one's inner state, I got much better at that than is reasonable, at a very early age. Thanks to me mum. Basically, if you had a response that was unacceptable (for whatever reason), you'd quickly find yourself in deep kimchee. The problem came when it got to the point that, to keep myself safe, I had to hide my true reactions from myself.

Lee @239: a parent who has damn good cause to worry about that happening -- and not because the children are selfish little ingrates, either.

"What? Give them reason to want to stay? Why, that's just crazy talk!"

Chickadee @243: minefield

This, in short, was why I had to develop the armor that I did. Which was imperfect, because the mines would occassionally move. Took me a solid ten years, after I moved out, to start to dismantle the armor. I've finally got it whittled down to a reasonable thickness. But it still makes me very reserved, on a lot of topics.

Pfusand @252: Someone Who Knew

And I'm now curious as to SWK's field of expertise. And are they taking new clients? :-)

The Occasionally Good @257: A quick Google using the phrase what if my medical records are wrong produces this as the top result. Specific to Washington state, so laws may vary by state/country. There are a couple of other potentially useful looking links in the results list.

Pendrift @261, I had interpreted your post @253 (and I think perhaps Dave Harmon did also) as pointing, not to you, but to other family members as the cargo-culters. Tapes are instilled, for example, by parents insisting on everyone in the family making the proper offering to the cargo cult gods. ("Do this! It will make you happy! It makes everyone happy! And if doesn't make you happy, don't dare say so!")

Too many exclamation points, I think. (I originally typed that as "too many explanation points," which is its own kind of error.)

OtterB @263: Or, if doesn't make you happy, Ur Doin It Rong!

Jacque @ 262:

Alas, SWK retired, and moved many years ago.

Pendrift #261, OtterB #263 : as pointing, not to you, but to other family members as the cargo-culters.

That was indeed my interpretation. And I'll point out that there's some difference between cargo-culting out of simple ignorance, versus being indoctrinated.

@The Occasionally Good #257: My sympathies re the severely inaccurate records. I've been told by people who appear to know whereof they speak that at many practices, although they are supposed to complete each file immediately after the appointment, HCPs leave them all until the end of the day or even longer, then attempt to reconstruct them from memory.

Sometimes there are other reasons, however. My recent annual physical yielded a comment from the physician to the effect that my history of Condition A was a worrisome factor because it meant that I might well develop Condition B.

Now, for assorted reasons, I had been extensively tested for Condition A. In fact people at that practice were so fixated on my developing Condition A Any Day Now Guyz that they neglected to test for Condition C, which almost put me in the hospital. But I never showed even a borderline positive result for Condition A.

Nevertheless, somebody had written "History of Condition A" in big letters in the concerns section of my file. As far as I can tell, this was simply because people who look like me "always" get Condition A.

A few years ago, I would have been stunned with betrayal and left in silent tears. But I got mad instead, and pointed out that my file would (SHOULD!) (fortunately did) clearly show the repeated negative tests for Condition A and would the doctor kindly fix the damn file? He said he would. I hope so.

Still, it's a nasty feeling when somebody who's supposed to have your complete trust screws around with vital information, isn't it?

Jacque @ 130: Thanks and thanks for the encouragement!
...One More Damn Thing To Deal with, yeah, that's a pretty good description. I'm glad this is a space where that's understood and can be actually talked about.

That client you had to deal with sounds unpleasant indeed and I'm sorry you had to deal with bad dreams afterwards!

A while ago I read somewhere about the unfairness of abusers getting to walk away after they messed up your life without (most of the time) having to deal with the fall-out and you example just seems like a "milder" version of this. It's really not cool how entrenched this stuff is.

Today started a bit slow, which is to say without having properly slept and completely unmotivated to do anything, but I'm happy that I managed to keep a kind mindset so far. It's really fascinating to watch how the new patterns actually do work even though (societal tapes) I still somewhat expect them to fail at some point. But in the end I'm always less stressed and get more stuff done the more I remind myself not to think negatively about the few things I've done on a given day.

(posted a bit too early, see also "your example", here is the rest...)
Of course I still struggle, I worry that it's somehow a cop-out to acknowledge that I'll get only two things done with my current amount of spoons instead of the eight to ten I'd like to do. But since I won't get even those done if I beat myself up about the whole situation, being nice to myself even though I think I can neglect it (ha, neglect again) is the way to go.
Another observation I made relates to emotions. Since the only MO I had as a kid was "enduring stuff" I'm trying different ways of dealing with emotions. The background anxiety won't go away anytime soon, might as well test a couple of ideas... Since I don't have the time to work through it every time fear shows up, I now try to get it moving.
Enduring stuff means holding still* for me, in thoughts, emotions of course as well as physically, though I can be stuck and still go about my day, but living is something else./sarcasm
*Obviously a valid strategy especially if there is no way out at the moment.
Getting the energy moving helps to get stuff done. It frustrates me that I cannot just shed the weight, but I can stay with it and give it some room without it ruling my entire day (week, month).
So, to go back to an earlier metaphor, I'm still climbing that fucking mountain, but I'm climbing and occasionally the view is fairly decent.

Good news and bad news:

Good news is, taking melatonin makes me sleep better, and I've got more energy during the day and get more done.

Bad news is, it makes my dreams more vivid and easier to remember, so I still have nightmares every night, only now I remember everything that happened in them.

Ross -- oh joy, for some reason my dreams have been a lot more um, active and memorable lately. No change in meds to explain it though.

Some are good, it was nice to see Gordy again even if I didn't recognize the hotel or the convention. But the others...

The worst is the one where I'm trying to get people to the basement level of a hotel during a con because there's a tornado headed for downtown Columbus. And the dream has an omniscient viewpoint, because while I'm herding fen I can see the damn storm spawning sibling funnels... Oh wait -- we must be in the Hyatt Regency, I can see the tornado because the hotel is walled in glass...

Ross @271, sleep is good but memorable nightmares are not. Did you start the melatonin fairly recently? Because if you've been short on REM sleep for a while, I think there's often a catch-up period when you have more dreams and more vivid dreams, and then it levels out again.

This "sadness reprieve" speaks to me about what we do in DFD threads.

somewhere_else @269: But in the end I'm always less stressed and get more stuff done the more I remind myself not to think negatively about the few things I've done on a given day.

That's exceedingly cool that you're developing reliable techniques to keep yourself in a good headspace. That's one of the most crucial kinds of personal power to have, IMnpHO.

I'm slowly learning that "I only got this much done today," because that's all I have capacity to do, and therefore, I damnwell do deserve props, even if it would be "only," according to the Tapes.

I'm still climbing that fucking mountain

There are days when I feel like I'm pushing a bowling ball uphill with my nose.

occasionally the view is fairly decent.

And know that it gets better!

Here's a large list of coping techniques that one person has found useful. As she says, feel free to add or adapt as necessary for you.

Regarding vivid dreams....

It's allergy season, and people may not realize that one of the off-label side-effects of pseudoephedine ("Sudafed" and one of the active ingredients in Claritin D) is hallucinations. My husband had to stop taking the stuff after he started having really vivid nightmares; he mentioned them to a pharmacist friend who told him the likely culprit, and when he stopped taking it his nose stuffed up but his nightmares went away.

So even if your regular medication hasn't changed, those over-the-counter allergy meds might have side effects to bear in mind.

Hope this helps.

One of the things I like about melatonin as opposed to other put-me-to-sleep pills is that the sleep actually feels restful, and not like the sudafed hallucinations that aren't really at all the same thing as sleep.

I've had nightmares every night as long as I can remember, it's just that now, they stick with me better, that's all. :(

Reading and witnessing, all.

I started jobbing again yesterday; it's a nice part-time summer job, and they were happy to have me back for the summer. I've even been offered some pseudo-manager hours, which are paid at a nicely boosted rate! At the expense of missing most of $hobby practice, alas. But I am prioritizing the money for now.

Also my mother has said she will try to make adult amends now that I am not a child, which I guess is a start. I'm supposed to think of things she can do to be less awful for me to be around; for some reason I cannot think of any when it is asked of me. She also relented on the "please do not use that nickname I have repeatedly asked you not to use" issue apparently.

So, overall good, but also I am tired for various reasons, physically and emotionally.

Lee @276: thank you for the link! Hopefully it will help at the times when all I feel like I can do is sit and poke despondently at the internet.

Like now, apparently. Someone got angry with me on tumblr and I'm taking it a bit hard. :(

Today's XKCD is relevant. Be sure to read the mouse-over text.

Lee@280: I read the mouse-over text. *Shudder* Yes, precisely.

Abroad now, and lacking in spoons. Traveling alone in a place where I don't speak the native language is taxing, even though I know I will meet with fellow volunteers soon. There are a variety of other things reducing my spoon count as well-- an ear infection (which, along with accents, makes communication difficult even without the language barrier), not knowing the area, getting there while sleep-deprived due to lack of flexibility in flight times, etc. Hopefully the next few days will be better.

Dash @282, all those things are really stressful at first, as you know, so cut yourself some slack until it gets better. It's a cool thing to be doing, but that doesn't mean that every moment will be delightful.

Dash: Have never tried this, so don't know if it would actually work, but have a notepad and pen handy, and draw quick stick-figure cartoons to convey your needs...? (Efficacy probably depends on culture; likely to be more useful in cultures with European-derived languages, I imagine.)

Anyway, if you try it, lemme know how/if it works.

Dash: Hang in there! You've (correctly, I think, certainly they seem very plausible) identified the probable major stressors of the situation. Accept that yes, this initial time is going to be stressful and you may have to use all your spoons simply to deal with these initial problems. The ear infection is plain bad luck! Being stressed in this situation is normal, not a sign that you're a failure.

Also note: just because you're all volunteering for the same cause/same project doesn't necessarily mean you will all get along well or all like each other - so be prepared for that. Also, you may find that you overwork and get too tired and have a minor breakdown (e.g. a crying fit). That's okay; it happens. Have the crying fit, then look at how you might be able to re-jig things so you don't overwork again.

Hope it all smooths out for you soon.

Ross: Yeah, Evil Rob stopped using melatonin after experiencing one of those wakeups where your ability to move is still shut down, but you're awake. It lasted long enough that he swore off melatonin forever.

On the bank holiday yesterday (after taking my family out for an outing) we got a phone call that my dad's dad (my last surviving grandparent) had died this morning. I didn't feel much as I never had a real relationship with my dad's parents (in fact, even my dad only tended to visit them once or twice a year, and had such a close relationship with my mam's parents that they virtually regarded him as a son rather than a son-in-law). My mother had a go at my dad saying that at least when her parents died she felt no regrets as she'd always kept closely in touch with them and never kept anything secret from them.

I think it's the second time that my mam's said to me that she wishes I could have the same kind of relationship with her that she had with her own mother -- she mentioned that while they often had heated arguments, they never fell out with each other, and she was always willing to keep her informed on how her life was going. I'm sure my mother regards me as cowardly because of my "secretive" behaviour, and because I've decided to forgo having a social life because I don't want to have to share the details of it with her. It seems like she regards privacy between family members as positively anathema -- is this common among people who grew up in village environments? Could one of the issues she had with my dad be a culture clash, originating in his own big-town* origins? Back in the incident about a month back when I thought of signing to rent a flat without telling her, she told me that not only did people in her experience only move out if they got married, but they also brought their parents along with them when they were viewing potential properties.

She was always highly critical of my dad's parents for being too eager to get him out of their house (to the extent of having him join the army, even though a history of being bullied at school demonstrated he clearly wasn't army material), which may have been a reason why she went to the opposite extreme (so worried about something happening to me that she virtually keeps me prisoner) when raising me. She also criticized her brother for the same thing (and feels vindicated now, given what happened to my cousin).

Sorry if I seem to be rambling on about my mam, but I'm desperately trying to figure out what makes her tick! I find the notion (which a lot of people here seem to be supporting) that there is absolutely nothing I can do to get my mother to give me even grudging permission to move out to be absolutely terrifying. What are my prospects for changing this, either by getting more support in place for her (how would I do this?) before I move out, or by offering to stay within her village when I get my first place?

If I did the latter, I'd still be able to trivially visit my mother on evenings if I had nothing else to do, and I could come round to help them when the council men come to renovate the house (and perhaps store some of their stuff in my own place, if I have any spare space to do it). Perhaps one reason why she was so hostile to my moving out is because she believed she'd need me to help them out when this time comes?

*Sunderland didn't have city status when my dad was growing up, although it was certainly big enough (population 177,000) to be a city!

I really like today's Boggle the Owl.

Codemonkey: ...Okay, first of all, the time to criticise how someone chooses to stay in touch (or not) with their relatives is not immediately after you find out said relative died. That was a VERY low blow on your mother's part. (I'm sorry for your loss, such as it was.)

I don't know if seeing privacy between family members as a Bad Thing is a small-town thing, but it's definitely an unhealthy thing, especially now that you're an adult. You do have a right to do things that will make you happy without explaining them to her; after all, it's not as though you're interested in taking up a life of crime or anything.

Whether people bring their parents along for property viewing depends on the person. Even if we'd been near enough to one set of parents to have them along, my fiancee and I probably would have gone by ourselves to view apartments. And while those shows on this side of the Atlantic about hunting for houses might be somewhat staged, I can't think of many off the top of my head where the potential buyer brings their parent along; generally it's either their spouse (who will also be living there) or a good friend. (Ignore if hlepy, but if I were you, I wouldn't bring your mother along anywhere near a large purchase I was considering. She'd find something to hate about it.)

She's not going to give you permission to move out; that would interrupt her groove WAY too much. Her groove is dependent on you staying indefinitely.

There is only so much extra support you can bring in, before or after you leave, that will be effective without her acknowledging she needs it. It'll be easier for you to try to help her with it when you're not bogged down by being in the problem; a lot of people here bring up the flight-safety 'secure your own oxygen mask before helping others' rule.

I bet that, if you were to offer to stay in the same town, your mother would counter with "Why do you need to move at all, in that case?"

I don't know if there's any way for you to have the same relationship with your mother that she had with hers, or if that's even a worthwhile goal (my gut says no). If there is, I really, really doubt it's going to happen while you're trapped in her groove.

CodeMonkey - it's possible that what you're seeing with your dad is the result of his dysfunctional upbringing by people who weren't all that fond of him. That's not the only possible interpretation of the data. The issue might have been money, or tradition, or a lack of opportunities at home, or some other thing entirely. You'd have to ask him. I will say, however, that it's an extremely rare case that one has absolutely no regrets about things undone or unsaid when family members die. So your mam may not be speaking completely honestly, and she's certainly being unkind to your dad at this moment.

I have never brought my parents along with me when looking at rentals. In the college town I live in, a parent on these look-throughs is a signal to the landlord that the parent will be meddling at all stages, running the lease past their lawyer, and calling the management if there are problems. If the parent is co-signing the lease, that's reasonable. Otherwise, it's not. Bringing your folks along may make you look like a worse prospect to some landlords, particularly if your parents fling drama about the move. So no, I wouldn't bring your mam to look at apartments, nor would I feel bad about that.

I don't think she's going to give you permission. I think you could bend yourself into horrifying knots trying to convince her there, but since I think she isn't going to bend, you should spare yourself the contortion. Decide what will make you happiest, in terms of moving, and do it.

(FWIW, and ignore if hlepy - I have quite a good relationship with my somewhat overbearing mother, because I moved out as soon as I could, and kept my life frantically secret for a few years so that I could build what I wanted without exposing the early attempts to her opinion. Some distance in late adolescence was vital. Someday my own children will be independent people who do unwise things. I hope they never get in so far over their heads that they need to give me all the details.)

This day has been weird. Dunno why, maybe just the weather. I just wish it would be a bit easier to get some of the longterm stuff planned and done. Most days right now I manage to get through with most of the basic needs covered and I'm actually quite happy about that, don't get me wrong. I'd just like to have a break from the brain weirdness now and then and work on more complex stuff without needing to plan even the smallest steps weeks in advance.

Still reading and witnessing.

Codemonkey: Your attempts to understand your mother's struggle and state of mind are laudable, but they are holding you in Earth's gravity well and preventing you from attaining escape velocity. And I get your need to explain (and I don't mean that maxim about understanding all is forgiving all) and justify her, but you seem to be talking yourself into not leaving.

As usual, ignore if hlepy.

Codemonkey, I suspect your mother will never give you permission... but also will never NOT give you permission. If you ask her straight out if you can leave, you will hear something to the effect of, "of course you can move out, you have my permission, but you know that good sons don't and you need to take care of your sister and if you really cared about me you'd buy a big fancy house and you'll never be able to take care of yourself... but you have my permission if you do all these impossible things first, of course you have my permission, what kind of mother wouldn't give her permission except that you'll get taken advantage of by everyone but that doesn't mean you don't have permission except you wouldn't if you really loved us."

I'll note that my parents never gave me or my sister or brother permission to move out of their house... they just expected it. Maybe not exactly when or how it happened in each of our cases, but they didn't think that we would even need permission to do so once we became adults.

Codemonkey: if this already feels like a pile-on, please ignore.

Has it occurred to you that, once you move out, it won't matter whether you have your mother's permission or not?

Ross @288: Thank you for posting that link to Boggle the Owl. I'm reading back through, and alternately cheering and crying. Lots of very, very good words.

Lee #244: Thank you again for the duck image. It's helped enormously - letting me internalize (as opposed to know academically but not emotionally) the idea that it really *is* a lot of work to visit when it isn't emotionally safe.

Lila #249, dcb #259, Jacque #262: thanks - helps to know I'm not alone!

On the upside, I'm seeing signs that Mom is really trying to figure out what's going on, and change the behaviours that upset me! I didn't recognize it at first because she was doing it so badly that it came off as more of the same (or worse). But she learns. And the biggest thing is that she's honestly trying! (and in so doing has actually defused a couple of the mines in the field. :)

Still stressful going over there, still have to watch out for certain topics, still need a good spoon supply going in for it to be a pleasant visit, but... hope. Progress. Not for the fantasy ideal mother-daughter relationship that she dreamed of and tried to create, but for something resembling a healthy relationship. I still have no hope for a healthy adult friendship (she's not nearly self-aware enough to change enough for that), but at least something I can ... not "not cringe at" (too negative), not "enjoy" (too positive), but have and value and hold dear.

Context for this: going over there the other day to spend several hours weeding their raspberry patch (thumb-thick roots on those suckers!), with family lunch in the middle and games after. I was exhausted when I got home, but I really saw the effort Mom was making.

Thanks to everyone in this community for help and support and listening to ranting along the way!

I'll note that my parents never gave me or my sister or brother permission to move out of their house... they just expected it.

This. In fact, after a certain age, it was a case of needing permission to STAY.

Codemonkey, you say that you find the commenters' position that your mother will never give you permission to move out "terrifying".

Perhaps we haven't emphasized enough that you don't need her permission?

Codemonkey, I'm sorry to hear about your granddad. I had almost no contact with extended family for the same reason, and all my grandparents are dead too. I get this weird disconnected feeling when I think about it, because I know I should feel loss, but I don't actually, because I barely knew them.

I can see why your mam so valued her relationship with her own mother. That kind of closeness is precious. Perhaps some of your mam's desire to know all your business is that she wants to have, or be, a close confidant again. But the kind of relationship you're describing sounds much more like best friends or spouses than parent and child. Most people don't want to tell every detail of their adult personal lives to their parents, especially not to the parent of the opposite gender.

Normally families expect children to grow up and move out, usually in their late teens or early twenties. Yours has refused to imagine that you could ever grow up and move out, so instead of being prepared for the change, they will be shocked and stage an emotional storm. It'll be rough, but it will pass. If they were going to let this be easy it would have been done already.

You have every reason to focus on figuring out how your mam ticks, and you'll keep working on that even after reaching your current goal of becoming independent without hurting your family more than required. You deserve to have your mam give you her blessing, her permission, to leave the nest and fly. But all the signs say that she isn't emotionally capable of it, and that nothing you can do will change that. Your input is fine -- the showstopper bug is in how she processes it, and you can't get at the source code in her head and heart causing that. So you have to give yourself permission, make your own blessing, and jump. Later she may shove her foot down her throat trying to give you half a blessing in retrospect.

You wanting her approval, and her only ever loaning it briefly and partially (rather than giving it fully and unreservedly) is a core dynamic that keeps you trapped and helpless. You do not *need* her permission or approval. You *want* it, but because she cannot truly/fully give it, you cannot successfully possess it; you can only waste your time and energy chasing the will-o'-the-wisp. You could come home tomorrow with a pregnant wife and a marriage certificate, but there would still be an endless parade of apparently objective and reasonable excuses to derail your plans, and your mam will never admit that the parade will be endless. She will always pretend that if you fulfill the currently posted conditions, that then you can win, because then you will keep playing the game by her rules. You have already lost years of your adult life to this pretense.

Logistically, my recommendation is this. You should view properties on your own -- it's all your money, you're more than old enough, and it should be wholly your decision where to live. The ideal spot is a 1 bedroom place that's pleasant, closer to work, and convenient to amenities and shops. The most important amenities are places and groups for people of the right interests, ages, and genders to gather, so that you can build that social life you'd like to have. It should be moderately convenient for you to visit the family home, but not so close that they will come over more often than you want them to. The idea is for *you* to have control over your space and privacy, while being close enough to show that you're still family and will be around for help and social time. After you move, offer regularly to visit or be visited, but don't let them rely overmuch on you. If they are being unpleasant, politely withdraw and wait patiently for them to try again with better manners. Encourage them to adjust and cope, and don't let them scuttle your plans and priorities unless there is a real problem or emergency.

Strength and good fortune, Codemonkey. We're all cheering you on.

Codemonkey writes: offering to stay within her village

Prediction: your mother will ask for a key of your new place, "just in case".

Riffing on a few responses to Codemonkey - perhaps less of a pile-on if I do it this way? *wan grin* We'll see.

My take on closeness vs privacy within families is this: even in healthy families, the physical proximity of sharing a house provides a certain amount of enforced closeness. A culture of respect for boundaries between family members - particularly in any relationships of inequality on the hierarchical ladder (parent-child) - would provide a necessary counterweight this. Particularly for the very young, who have to learn how to become individuals while still very dependent on their parents for survival.

It's been my experience that the more concern expressed by people (family or not) with regard to my sharing (or lack thereof), the more reason I ended up needing my boundaries. When I've had reason to say to someone, "I have no wish to discuss this topic right now" (less confrontational than "with you", cf Suzette Haden Elgin and her Gentle Art of Verbal Defense books), the response will always indicate the level of respect I have from my conversation partner. "Okay, I respect that," - good. "But you're keeping secrets from me! What did I do wrong? You're so mean!" - not so much.

Also, someone reacting in the second way, I've noticed, frequently has a vested interest in circumventing my boundaries. Sometimes, it's as trivial as trying to read what papers I've discarded after a role-play gaming session. Other times it's pointed questioning about my relations with some other family member. (Minor digression: one parent practically invited me to accuse the other of "inappropriate behavior" towards me as a child. "But how could you not want to talk to me about that??" I didn't know then, but learned later, this was called 'concern trolling'.)

Thinking a bit on a related matter, of getting permission - or at least a blessing - from one's parents to move out. If it looks impossible to get that permission, that's already pretty unsettling. But I wonder if the terror could be about something bigger? Is it the prospect of never getting permission that hurts most? Or maybe having to contemplate life after confronting such an impossibility? After all, what would it really mean? Confronting the choice before one: acquiescing to the current situation (and stay), or accept that permission is not forthcoming and then setting one's own course in full knowledge that this is Not Approved.

In either event (and probably more possibilities I'm not covering for the sake of brevity), this all is quite possibly unfamiliar emotional territory. Particularly if grabbing one's freedom with one's very own hands, one of the prices of this is moving into an uncharted space, in one's own head and sometimes also in society.

That's where friends can help, and I hope, dear Codemonkey, that folks here continue to be of help. We're here and you're there, at the coal face. Thank you for letting folk here know how you continue to get on, and I want you to know that I am appreciating your efforts. Particularly as mentioned above - being in an unfamiliar territory is quite confrontational of one's identity. Be kind to yourself, in all your dealings with your own self as well as with interactions in your family. You deserve to be happy, and you do NOT deserve the pain of love given on condition that you are someone else's ideal of a good son.

Crazy(and apparently rather preachy, today... I'll see if I need to answer to any charges of having been helpy)Soph

I was just abroad and am now home, and just wanted to say that I hope Dash is doing a bit better. Travel can be hard.

Codemonkey, I'm so sorry that your situation is fractally difficult. You're trying so hard, so absolutely hard, to change your personal situation without making your mam's worse, and that is a worthy goal.

I hope you find your way to independence. You deserve it. Your family deserves it, if you want to think of it that way. You can do this, as difficult as it is, and while it looks like you won't be able to do it without upsetting your mother, I think you'll be stronger enough afterward to make up for it.

crazysoph @300: "But how could you not want to talk to me about that??" I didn't know then, but learned later, this was called 'concern trolling'.

*CLICK* You just put a name to a slightly squicky behavior of a former coworker. S/he seemed to particularly relish sharing tales of misfortune, and seemed puzzled when rebuffed. Ew.

Codemonkey, everyone else has pretty much said what I was thinking, so there's no need for me to reiterate it. I do think that Lila is spot-on here; once you're free, you won't need her permission to break your chains.

It seems like she regards privacy between family members as positively anathema -- is this common among people who grew up in village environments? Could one of the issues she had with my dad be a culture clash, originating in his own big-town* origins?

This is probably a combination of several things. Small-town vs. bigger-town could easily be one of them. Some of it may be regional culture; my mother grew up in the American South, and never lost what I considered to be the habit of spying on and then gossiping about the neighbors, because that's what they do in that culture. Some of it may be another piece of the Red Family / Blue Family divide. But I think the most proximate cause is likely to be boundary issues pure and simple -- she doesn't understand where she stops and you start. And if she had that kind of relationship with her own mother (therapists call it "enmeshment") and thinks of it as the normal way for parents to interact with their children, you've got a problem that you can't fix -- because it's her problem.

Back in the incident about a month back when I thought of signing to rent a flat without telling her, she told me that not only did people in her experience only move out if they got married, but they also brought their parents along with them when they were viewing potential properties.

The first part of that is definitely an Inherited Obligation Family thing. As for the second... my parents were maddeningly overprotective and controlling, and definitely had boundary issues (especially my father), but they would never have expected me to drag them along when I was apartment-hunting, nor would I have considered doing so. That is NOT normal parental behavior.

I am very sorry to hear that she was able to scare you away from signing the lease. What I said at the time still holds true: now she knows what kind of behavior will work to keep you firmly under her thumb, and the next round will be even harder. You're also stuck in a nasty catch-22 -- as long as you live with her, she'll consider you a child incapable of making your own decisions or living independently. And there's only one way to break that vicious cycle, which is to take your freedom. She will never give it to you.

So, every so often I read something (like links 1 and 2 at the end) which talks about the stress response cycle — fight/flight/freeze followed by relief when the threat stops. The basic message is that you have to finish feeling your feelings and clear the decks. I had/have to live, study, or work with the threats in my life most days, so I probably have a good half-lifetime’s worth of unfinished stress cycles kicking around. So the idea of finishing them, getting out of the stuck record, is an interesting but overwhelming prospect. My life handed me a lot of things where freezing or flying were the best options, but the threats never left no matter how much freezing or running I did. Fighting back was also not usually an option. Today, many of the threats are false positives, but I take them harder for all the old unresolved things kicking around, and I can’t reliably tell the real threats from the accidents early enough.

The writer of those articles suggests thinking about the happy ending of the scary story. But I can’t create the happy endings that I need without help I don’t know how to get. My worst fears and hurts revolve around insecurity, and many of their expressions are realistic and rational fears, like ending up unemployed and going broke. I am all too aware that my safety and basic needs depend on other people valuing me, caring about me, helping me. I’m all too aware because I have plenty of experience that I can’t count on others to help, protect, or employ me, amplified by Goddamn Tapes. And I don’t have enough counter-experience of people valuing, helping, and loving me to the degree necessary to wipe out a lifetime of being unwanted and inadequate in the eyes of my parents. It’s like having a black hole installed; all the love and approval people offer gets sucked in and falls into a bottomless pit.

So I’d like to try this finishing my emotions thing, but I’m not sure I can. What if there is so much sadness, anger, and grief that I never come out the other side? When I do let myself pay attention to it, I seem to have an endless supply of negative emotions, and they don’t seem to end.

It does not help that right now I'm on an unexpected vacation because my contract at work ended before they got organized with the new one, and they have no way to guarantee I'll be re-hired, although we are all doing our best to make that happen. It's nothing personal when I think about it objectively, but what it feels like is yet another Sword of Damocles to prove to me that helplessness and insecurity is the best I'm ever going to get. I needed the vacation, I love the vacation, but I'm furious at them for how and why it's happening, and I can't tell them so with the emotional force it deserves without paying for the indiscrection.

[1] http://www.thedirtynormal.com/2013/05/09/the-science-of-feelings-as-illustrated-by-hyperbole-and-a-half/
[2] http://www.thedirtynormal.com/2013/05/27/dont-just-talk-about-it-trauma-i-mean/

Moonlit Night, you might find Healing Trauma by Peter Levine to be useful.

It's based on the idea of going through a stress/recovery cycle (Levine may have been the first person writing about this), it's got a CD, and the first exercise (the only one I've done) seemed like it did some good.

@Lee no. 304: Indeed. The only reason to take a parent along while apartment hunting is if said parent is a plumber or in some other trade that involves professional knowledge of what a decent place to live should have in it.

@Codemonkey: At one point I found myself in a situation where I could either claim my freedom or preserve my existing relationship with my mother.

She was considerably gentler with her enmeshment: I was the petted, favored child of an alcoholic. My assigned function was to provide affection on her terms and fix her drinks. I began to understand how screwed up my life was when I was headed toward adulthood. I claimed my freedom. It hurt like hell. But I look back from a vantage point of years of therapy at the life I lived in her house and feel literally sick. Still, at the time, I felt like a traitor.

I think this is a common struggle for people whose parents wish to engulf them and make them into extensions of themselves. (And if we resist, we are often accused of selfishness. Look up C.S. Lewis's Screwtape Letters for an interesting discussion of this type of relationship; he identified it as flat-out hellish.)

Posting under a different nym, just in case... Not DF but dysfunctional work - I think this is the most appropriate thread but Abi will no doubt tell me if I'm wrong. Wall-o-text apology.

I have a job which I've previously called my ideal job, doing something which I consider very worthwhile, and which I know is needed. This is something which I have done for most of my working life, envisaged doing for the rest of my working life, have put in a heck of a lot of unpaid overtime over the last 17 years or so (and for which I am underpaid anyway), considered as my life's work and intended permanent legacy.

A few months ago there were major personnel changes in the organisation, resulting in it now being headed by someone who doesn't know me personally and doesn't understand what I do or its importance. Everyone else in my department has been made redundant and I'm at least half expecting the same to happen to me once a particular funded project has been completed. My immediate manager shows no respect for me and neither respect for, nor understanding of, my work. My current manager and the head of HR responded to my obvious unhappiness by giving me a two-on-one bullying session ("beatings will continue until morale improves" school of management) during which they interrupted me every time I said something they didn't like or gave examples contradicting what they were saying. Surprisingly enough, this has all led to my feeling low and demotivated.

So I'm seriously considering looking for another job, in a related field. The area I'd like to get into isn't one in which huge numbers of appropriate jobs come up - which means that if I don't go for one now, there might not be one if/when I do get made redundant. I didn't get the first one I applied for (which turned out at interview not to be what I'd expected from the advert anyway) and now something else has come up which may be very appropriate, and I'm thinking about applying.

And yet, and yet... - I feel that if I do get another job, I'm abandoning my life's work, and all my work will have been wasted, if it doesn't go forward (and I can't really see how it can, without me). So, I have the choice between staying, and hoping that my morale and emotional state will improve, and hoping that the job will continue, or seriously trying to get another job, and, if I get one, feeling guilty about leaving my life's work - because although I fantasize about being allowed to take it with me and continuing working on it in my spare time, I have to recognise that's unlikely to happen.

And I recognise that part of it is that I'm scared - what if I get a new job and I don't like it? What do I do then?

Thoughts?

(qpo) spoiler @308: Personally, I think a life's work is like a life: only visible in retrospect, definitely not clear in prospect. I speak as one who hasn't had a clear life's work -- I've done a lot of things, each one of which has been pointed at by others as "major" or "important" but none of which has claimed primacy in my life. So I think it's okay to remain in flux and see what happens -- that there will always be new things to do that are worth my time and that excite me, and that I'll never manage to know everything about anything so I get to stay curious. As Jon Singer said at one point, "If you know, you can't find out." And I happen to really love being curious.

qpo (spoiler), 308: Are you me? Because I'm in the same boat, doing valuable and underpaid work, for people who can't or won't see it. With bonus bullying, even. I've actually been made redundant, I've had several interviews but no offers.

I don't know what to do. This work has been a big part of who I am for a long time; I'm fine with leaving it, I think, but I don't know where to go from here. I'm pretty sure I'm not at risk of hlepiness because I have no idea what to suggest...

Sumana Harihareswara @301- I'm not so much better as having different stressors now. I've been in and out of a crying fit for the last day out of worries that I'm not pulling my weight among the volunteers, that I don't know what I'm doing, that the other volunteers see me as a burden...

Dash @311, ignore if hlepy, but you've been there for, what, a few days? A week? NONE of you new volunteers know what you're doing yet. Some of them are just better at faking it than others...

Hang in there. Learning a new job (volunteer or paid) is stressful, but you'll get it.

Cassy

I relapsed. I'd gone without self-harm since Mother's Day and I relapsed. And then my fellow volunteers had to try to make me feel better. Yet another instance of me just getting in the way.

A snarky Note to Self that may be useful for some folks here.

Dash @313, you are not dragging down the other volunteers. Believe this. Please.

Ignore if hlepy, but I'm really, really sincere here.

Pick yourself up, brush yourself off, bandage as necessary, and move on. You'll get this. Really. Other volunteers will need your help, too. You'll give it. That's what communities do; they support each other. You need support now and that's ok; you'll pay it forward with someone else.

Dash: Deep breaths.

Self-harm is not an easy thing to stop. Try not to ride yourself too hard for the relapse, and try to let your fellow volunteers help - as Cassy said, you'll get a chance to help someone else later.

You're not a horrible person because of this. As I often remind my fiancee, your brain is lying to you.

Ignore if hlepy, of course. Hang in there.

Nameless Regular @ 310:

Thank you. It helps knowing I'm not the only one in this position. I hope it helps you as well, knowing you're not the only one.

Dash. Like the others say, deep breaths. Give yourself time.

Dash: Reading and witnessing. You've done nothing irreversible or unforgivable.

Codemonkey: A quick note that I agree with others that, based on what you've said? You're not getting her permission. ...but also agreeing that: you don't NEED her permission. She is not the boss of you. She is the mom of you; that's way different, and what she wants for you is way different than what you need.

(Also, a small but very important point: DO NOT EVER GIVE HER THE KEY TO YOUR APARTMENT, FLAT, OR HOUSE. No matter what sort of emergency situations she verbally envisions for you that make her neeeeeeeed to have one just in case. Trust me/us on this one.

Yes, this implies "don't let her talk you into letting her move into "your" new place with you". There are fairly good reasons for that, which she's attempting to get you never to see...)

--Dave

Dash @311: I've been in and out of a crying fit for the last day out of worries that I'm not pulling my weight among the volunteers, that I don't know what I'm doing, that the other volunteers see me as a burden...

When I find myself feeling anxieties like this, I've finally learned that the first thing to do is check my spoon supply. You are in a situation that is guaranteed to be exhausting and stressful. I find it unlikely in the extreme that you are being any more of a "burden" to your fellow volunteers than they are worried that they are being. Please be gentle with yourself, and budget yourself extra sleep, nutrition, and fun.

Ohgod ohgod ohgod I may actually be attempting to make therapist appointments again sometime in the next week ... it's been, um, well over 4 years since the last time I attended a therapy session, and that therapist was really more of a life coach (and, while supportive and friendly, was offering a different register of help than I was actually interested in).

I remember times when therapy was really helpful to me. However, I also remember that even in those cases there was a 4-6 week (one appt/wk) period in which apparently nothing was happening, except me opening myself up to bleed and be vulnerable every week and therefore making myself less able to repress/simply fight off all the Bad Feelings. If the therapist turned out to be helpful for me, the 'active improvement' stuff would begin to be noticed post the 4-6wk period.

So now I get to try to winnow a large group of 'on my insurance; nearish my house' people who have only tiny descriptions online down to a smaller large group I will call to see if they're taking new clients, which will self-limit down to a reasonably sized pool of people with whom I will have a First Appointment. Argh.

I wish I could even think of things to ask them to try to preselect a decent fit, besides "I'm trans, is that a problem? Trans stuff isn't my MAIN issue, my main issue is depression" and "I'm really not interested in spiritual advice, especially Christian."

Suggestions welcomed.

I'm definitely going to google the names and see what comes up, though I'll take all online reviews with large portions of salt. If they have a more detailed "what I do and what I'm good at" section somewhere out on the web, though, that would be helpful in making my decision of who goes on the first Long List.

Bricklayer #320: I wish I could even think of things to ask them to try to preselect a decent fit, besides "I'm trans, is that a problem? Trans stuff isn't my MAIN issue, my main issue is depression" and "I'm really not interested in spiritual advice, especially Christian."

I suggest rewording the first to "I'm trans, but that is not what I'm here for. Do you have a problem with that?" You don't want to be asking them if you being trans is a problem....

Dave Harmon @321: But whether they have a problem with the fact that I AM trans is in fact something I want to know about them. And some days, trans stuff WILL be what I'm there for, that day; just on the whole my gender is not The Problem, it's just a facet of me.

Still reading, still witnessing, have things I'd like to say to people but am still mired in my own mess. That should change fairly soon, though.

It's been a month since my last appointment with the Doctor from Hell, and I think I'm still somewhat in shock that they lied about my medical conditions, about the medications I do and don't take, about my emotional state, about everything.

The appointment with the new doctor is tomorrow. I'm apprehensive, of course. Logically, I know it'll be OK, but emotionally? I've now got a fair amount of baggage from the last one. Also, it's been over three months now, of not getting a diagnosis for the new, severe, and limiting thing going on with my health, and my spoon level has continually been in negative numbers.

I told my therapist what had been going on, and the misinformation listed under "psych" in my records from that doctor. She's sent me a copy of the overview she'll be sending with my psych records when the new clinic gets them, and she's demolished Every. Single. One. of those inaccuracies. Demolished, removed the debris, and plowed salt into the ground on which they were built. I have the best therapist ever (well, best for me). And I know how fortunate I am to have her.

dcb @ 259: Thank you! That does help. I still haven't quite figured out how to limit the examples, as there are so many that are so seriously wrong. (If I had a dart board, I'd pin several of the things on post-its, and choose that way.) I'm working on writing out a sort of bullet-point list I can work from, and will go in saying I've had some cognitive function damage from [another thing on the list of things I cope with], so I need to have things written down so I don't miss anything important.

Jacque @ 262: That is perfect (you got the state right, even *smile*). Once I get on top of the whatever-it-is that's going on physically, I'm definitely going to go that route, and get the records amended.

J @ 268: This doctor actually types everything in during the appointment, while we're talking, so it can't be excused by "other things happening between appointment and time records are filled in". Alas. There's the saying, "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity" - in this case, I think the reverse is true. I'm trying hard to let go of needing to know why.

Nevertheless, somebody had written "History of Condition A" in big letters in the concerns section of my file. As far as I can tell, this was simply because people who look like me "always" get Condition A.

This is One Of The Things this doctor has done, from an earlier visit. And refused to correct the record. In retrospect (that 20-20 hindsight thing), I should've started looking for another doctor then; but, again, I've been running on zero spoons, and the thought of the effort required to find another doctor, in reasonable distance, in my insurance network, had me nearly in tears. (Turns out, my insurance people were unexpectedly helpful with that.)

Still, it's a nasty feeling when somebody who's supposed to have your complete trust screws around with vital information, isn't it?

Oh yes. It's that "who painted the target on my back, and how many knives are deeply embedded?" feeling.

Bricklayer: Maybe "are you comfortable working with trans patients on issues that have nothing to do with gender?"

I can share some salmon with lemon, ginger, and thyme; some pasta with garlic and basil; fresh peas; raspberry sorbet.

Too many spaces? Punctuation errors?

Bricklayer @320 and 322, right, you don't want them concluding that all your other issues are because you're trans.

Good luck finding a good fit.

OtterB @327: There is also a nonzero subset of the psych*ist community (asterisk to show diversity including -ologist -iatrist, etc) that holds opinions about transgender'ism' and transsexuality that I find personally somewhat offensive. Not least because they hold that I personally cannot exist ...

One prominent holder of and evangelist for these particular theories/tropes is a respected (by some people, anyway) academic at a fairly major institute of higher learning in my city. I wouldn't want to find out four weeks in that my prospective new therapist was one of his disciples, thanks.

This is why "do you have a problem with the fact that I'm trans?" is high up on my list of winnow questions, followed quickly-but-separately by "and that my trans-ness is not my major problem right now?"

Darnit. Wouldn't you know, all that time polishing the comment and I STILL miss the nym attached to it? Argh.

Bricklayer: I found my therapist through a trans* friend; my friend (who lives in another state) emailed me when he knew I was looking for a therapist and basically said 'hey, there's a website I have used that lists therapists who are queer-friendly and specialize in LGBTQ patients, and here's one in your neck of the woods.' He didn't send me the website, unfortunately, but I would imagine googling would probably find some options for you. I was in a similar boat - fairly comfortable with my gender stuff (I'm genderqueer) and looking for someone to talk to about depression and coping in general, but I still wanted someone to whom I didn't have to explain/defend my gender identity to. It's worked out fairly well for me, and it means we can also easily discuss gender stuff as it's come up.

Good luck. I'm not sure there's much that's more nerve-wracking than trying to find a new therapist.

Bricklayer, k8: That would probably be the Kink-Aware Professionals site.

k8, Lee: Yes, which lists no therapists in my state, just a couple of lawyers. Also, any outside recommendation sites have to be cross-checked against my insurance company's (ten names at a time!) list of people who I'm covered to see.

Hiding in a corner about it today as I try to rise above unexpected nausea and lower-GI unhappiness to actually attempt to get out of the house and acquire the tux I'm going to need by Saturday ...

I've been kind of MIA here for a while because of feeling massively overscheduled and underspooned, and it's not about to get any better. If I were at my very best this week (lots of spoons, cheerful, good attitude) what I need to get done by Saturday would be an utterly trivial amount of work. But I'm coming off of 7 days of in-laws in my house, one interstitial day, a 5-day road trip to another city where I was single-parent responsible for our kid, then most of a week of 'normal' at-home schedule with day care where I basically slept all day and hid, and now it's Wedding Week.

The Friday after Wedding Week I get to fly to Toronto for a week with the in-laws, again ... and then the day after we get back from that, attend a bat mitzvah. With my hyper kid who probably won't want to sit through the ceremony. And then drive nearly 2hr from the ceremony to the reception, where our presence is not really optional.

And to think I was thinking a couple of months ago that June looked fairly schedule-light!

Bricklayer, 332: Strength to your arm. That sounds...kind of brutal, actually, and I'm relatively enspoonified right now.

Bricklayer: Co-signed on TexAnne's "Strength to your arm." That's one hell of a lot of stuff to recover from, and likewise a hell of a lot of effort coming up. Especially with all that in-law time so closely spaced. And flying and driving & ceremony time with an active kid... oy gevalt.

SUGGESTIONS BELOW, IGNORE IF HLEPY, and forgive me if I'm restating things you already know about Jewish practice:

Something to consider: will the bat mitzvah girl & her family understand if you arrive for the ceremony, but spend the bulk of it supervising your kid playing outside, either on whatever play equipment the synagogue might have, or, in a pinch, entertaining her with bubbles and sidewalk chalk? Unless this particular synagogue's practices are very different from the ones I grew up with, there will be a coffee-and-cakes-type reception (probably more like bagels, but you get the idea) at the synagogue, directly after the ceremony, in addition to the later reception that's a two-hour drive away.

I know for sure that my family would have understood if a parent of a young kid absented themselves from the sanctuary during the service and brought the kid back in during the oneg shabbat (the coffee-and-cakes deal, which is provided for the whole congregation, even those who aren't going to the family's reception later) which is social and busy and where a noisy active kid isn't going to be a massive disruption, and where everyone's free to coo over the kid instead & maybe get in a word or two with you.

The bat mitzvah girl is giving a difficult vocal performance up there. I know that back in 1982 I would have been much more relieved about Exit of Restless Kid than upset about Guest Missing My Special Once In A Lifetime Performance. Heck, if the guests in the sanctuary had been completely different people than the ones at the reception, I wouldn't have noticed, because I had the typical the-audience-is-a-big-blur perception -- I'd only have noticed if there were distracting noise. Of course, if there had been a restless kid at mine, they'd have had to play in the hallway, because I got an active blizzard for my bat mitzvah. Super inconvenient for the out-of-town relatives, but awesome for me, because my out-of-town summer camp friends were forced to stay the entire weekend, aw darn, so terrible.

I'm kind of assuming you don't have an aliyah - that is, being honored by being called to the altar to say a blessing over a section of the Torah reading, because I'm assuming you're not Jewish. If you do have that particular active role in the ceremony, it's going to be interesting balancing that with the needs of your kid, and, again, I say, "Strength to your arm."

Bricklayer: That is a full schedule - both just-passed and to-come. Any chance of a day, at your in-laws, where grandparents look after the kid and you get a day to go off by yourself and just relax?

And I second Rikibeth re. the actual Bat Mitzvah ceremony: turn up beforehand, say hi, absent yourself and boistous kid from the ceremony, join everyone again once it's over.

Bricklayer: Woof. And I thought our schedule over the next 6 weeks or so was frenetic! (Three weeks of major con-prep thrash followed by 3 cons on successive weekends -- one local, one in OKC, one in Baltimore.) Thirding the wishes for strength and cope to you.

I hate this process of reapplying for what ought to be my job. I'm applying for it through as many agencies as will let me, but I still can't be sure I'll get my job back. And nobody bothered to tell me anything useful about how this process worked ahead of time, and they only barely told me other important data like the contract length.

The job is only halfway a cog job, but the application process is all cog job, and a bad one at that.

Today's mini-crisis is over one of the agencies (the last one to react) telling me that I can only apply through them if I give them exclusivity. I haven't heard of this before and I don't like it -- what's in that for me? Because all the other agencies replied first, the answer will be that I'm so sorry, it's too late to promise that; you decide if you want to represent me anyway. We'll see if they bend.

Rikibeth, you're right, I'm not one of the tribe, though I'm friends with and related to a huge number of Jews. And by some standards (i.e. "would Hitler have killed her?", which was my stepmom's mother's standard) my daughter has some claim to Jewish ethnicity. She was also finally big enough to sort of participate in the Passover seder this year, which was fun (she keeps randomly singing nonsense syllables to the Dayenu tune, months later).

The upcoming inlaw visit at their house may be surprisingly relaxing; aside from the two nights at the indoor water park (which will probably be frenetic) John and I have a hotel room and are NOT staying at his parents' house; the kid may be having continual sleepovers with her many cousins and NOT BE SLEEPING WITH US HALLELUJAH. Or so I can hope, anyhow.

And, hey! Yesterday I got to a grindingly-spoon-eating chore that's been piling up for about a year: weeding the kid's drawers for size- and weather-inappropriate clothing, and then instead of simply throwing them in the 'not current clothes' open box on the porch, going through all the buildup of same and sorting them out to box up properly for long-term storage, labeled for size. Go me ...

Also, I did manage to get my tux rental arranged today (though nothing else that was on my to-do), so that's a relief. Now to see on Thursday, at the pickup-and-check-fit visit, whether they have any formal pants that can handle my Epic Ass. She measured me, so I figure she's had fair warning. :->

Oh, and as regards therapist search, I absently typed 'chicago gender therapist' into Google just to see what I would get, and HOSANNA there's a really neat multidimensional well-designed search engine on Psychology Today's website that lets you filter by zip code, specialty, treatment philosophy, insurance ... it's really amazing, and will make this job far less impossible. Turns out 'transgender issues' is one of their flag fields upon which one can filter.

Bricklayer, hooray for the in-law visit possibly giving you some respite time from the kid! And count me NOT SURPRISED that she got infected with the Dayenu earworm.

I'm optimistic about your tux trousers. Tux-wearing people come in lots of sizes, including Enormous in several dimensions. And trousers are easier to adapt than jackets, when it comes to that. The interesting bit will be getting the combination of "waist" size and inseam -- I'm betting some hemming up will be involved.

And I bet you'll look fabulous.

Bricklayer - hooray for Psychology Today! And hooray for one less spoon to have to scrounge up, as to echo everyone else, your June is making mine look relatively light in comparison. Best of luck with all that, and I hope you get some good quality time to do absolutely nothing at all in there. (:

Bricklayer #332: I'm with Texanne, that schedule is pretty rough -- wishing you strength!

Bricklayer, if you think you might want to wear a tux in the future, enquire about buying some and having them tailored for you. Many rental places do this, and used rental tuxes and other formal wear can be inexpensive compared to a couple of rentals. It's a common thing among music majors.

I think wearing a tuxedo for after-six at a con would be quite dashing.

http://www.blacktieguide.com/

That would be buying one and having it tailored. Let's not be to extravagant.

Bricklayer, this is late advice, I know, but have you consided contacting The Center on Halstead for referrals for an understanding therapist?

They work specifically with LGBTQ folks.

1-773-472-6469

Just a thought; ignore if hlepy.

Bricklayer, seconding the suggestion of a secondhand tux. It pays for itself pretty quickly - when my younger brother discovered that he'd be going to three proms one year, my parents did the math and bought him a tux. He then wound up wearing it all through college and at my wedding. If you can afford to buy, it's a good choice, on the Vimes' Boots principle.

I bought a used tux when I had occasion to wear it twice in one year, and it was cost-effective. Most definitely so! Haven't worn it since, but it should still fit. (Famous last words....)

...so today I got to experience what might be the most counterproductive lecture ever from my volunteer coordinator. In between hlepy advice like "you need to cheer up!" and "stop being so hard on yourself!", he stated that he didn't feel comfortable having me teach English in a school (you know, the whole reason I'm here) because of my depression, that my depression is interfering with my volunteering (incidents have only occurred outside of volunteering time so far), and that they might have to send me back home early- after contacting my parents about the issue.
He claims that it's not because I'm incapable, but that's the only way I can read his remarks (or perhaps he's saying that I'm incapable for the time being, but same difference), and being told more or less that I'm a bad volunteer because of my depression is only making my depression that much worse. And I really am not looking forward to answering my parents' questions about all this... I want to volunteer, and I really don't want to go home, but apparently the volunteer coordinator who I just met a week ago knows what's best for me better than I do.
If I do get sent home- and it sounds like, if others agree that's the best decision, I won't have much choice in the matter- then I'll be letting everybody down. My parents, my school, the other volunteers, the volunteer organizations... and I'd spend the next two months fielding hostile questions from my mother. I don't think I could take that. I really don't.

Continuing on the "buy rental knockoffs" - make sure not to get anything "in style", but you will know that better than I already, I'm sure - end of June is a great time, as heavy tux season/Proms dries up, and the rental places will be wanting to closet clean (End of summer, as heavy wedding season winds down, is also a good time).

Also, rentals are made specially for frequent (and gross as well as fine) adjustments in ways that tailored-to-someone would not be; which would usually mean that someone comefortable with clothes surgery will find it even less hassle if body shape changes, even drastically, in future.

Granted, it's less likely you'll be using the extra 5 inches of leg or arm...

Oh, Dash, that just sucks raw rocks. I wish I had a good suggestion beyond whapping him upside the head with a dead fish.

Dash: That's tough. Is there anyone you can talk to, to say: "Look, stopping me volunteering is just going to make me more depressed. I'm okay while I'm actually volunteering. If you can just ignore that I'm depressed and let me get on with what I came here to do, then I'll get less depressed.

Good luck.

Dash, that sucks. Is there anyone else you can talk to, someone with more power and clue than the coordinator?

Bricklayer, I just read a detailed history of a scandal involving one of the people mentioned in that article, so I can see why you'd want to avoid them.

I officially got kicked out of the program for my depression. I had serious suicidal thoughts tonight, and told my mother, which was probably a mistake. Still tempted to do something- self-harm, maybe, or continue the fast I've begun since breakfast. But maybe this is what it takes to get help, to get my mother to take my problems seriously.

Dash @354: I realize they're probably just doing what they think is best for the program, but it happens to be THE WORST for you.

The only small plus side to this is you might have an opportunity to have your GP refer you to a psychiatrist, if you're going to be at home. Having to deal with this on your own, when everyone around you seems to be conspiring to drag you down even farther, must be difficult. I feel for you.

Allan Beatty: Indeed. If it's the one I'm thinking of, let me note for the record that sleeping with your study subjects (correction: getting BLOWJOBS from your study subjects without ever reciprocating at all) is ethically not considered best practices, and would not pass any Human Subjects Review Board I've ever heard of.

Tuxedos subthread is the sort of thing I'm tempted to take from DFD-land back over to the Open Thread. :-> I've been watching for tuxes in the thrift stores I frequent, because I have a secondhand tux (bought for the younger brother of my sorta-cousin when they were going on a long cruise requiring formalwear) that fit me for many years. It no longer fits me, and is slightly too small for my husband, so it is one of the items I'm trying to find a good home for (that and the prom dress I never ended up wearing to prom; they would both have gone to WisCon's clothing swap except for limited baggage space considerations).

If I'd been good and actually gotten around to tux-shopping seriously a month ago, acquiring one Of My Very Own was a priority, but ... life intervened. A lot. And it stopped being anywhere near the top of my to-do list until, um, suddenly IT WAS NEEDED NOW. So I'm renting one (and my stepmom is paying me back for the rental) for this occasion, and will consider acquiring one for con purposes (and whatnot, but mostly cons) in the indefinite Someday Soon. I'm especially open to a tux in an Amusing Color, not just black, if I happen across one in my size for reasonable pricing. :->

Bricklayer, #356: ...life intervened. A lot. And it stopped being anywhere near the top of my to-do list until, um, suddenly IT WAS NEEDED NOW.

Oy. Welcome to my life. One of the few things I dislike about living with my partner is that we seem to be in permanent Crash Crisis Priority Mode about nearly everything, and especially about things involving either maintenance or advance preparation. It's not really either his fault or mine, it's just that Weird Shit keeps cropping up; and there's a fair amount of it that would be fixable if we had enough money to throw at it, but we don't.

Dash, I'm so sorry. I wish you strength and spoons to deal with your mother on top of everything else.

Dash: Reading and witnessing. I...recognize that place.

One of the kindest things anyone ever did for me was the friend who took me out to mini-golf just after I got my shattering news, to distract me from my initial impulses to do harmful things. It didn't fix anything in the long run, but in the short term, it kept me alive.

If I could take you out for mini-golf, I would.

Dash, that sucks. It sucks a lot. I hope you're all right and that the next time the universe kicks you, it breaks its foot and has to hobble around telling everyone it made a bad decision when they ask about the cast. I dislike your program, though I don't know which one it is.

I wish you strength and endurance.

Dash, reading and witnessing.

Dash: reading and witnessing.

Dash: Sympathies. That's... not helpful.

Dash, I am sorry. Please hold on and use this as the opportunity to get better help.

More in the category of "I'm the dysfunctional member of my family", and a deeply ashamed plea for help:

Due to a lack of money (I am unemployed, my parents support me so that their grandchild won't starve) I had been driving my car unregistered and uninsured for two years.

In April I finally got caught, and the car was towed.

I got a rental. I put it on the "for emergencies" credit card that my parents pay.

I was far too ashamed to admit the circumstances to them, so I told them it had been a car accident.

In order to get the car re-registered, I not only would have to get the car insured, but also pay off back taxes and some old parking tickets.

The knowledge of all this money that I didn't have sent me into a depressive cycle, so I was stuck and didn't do ANYTHING for about a month.

I finally got the courage to admit the situation to a friend and beg for help. She bailed me out of the back taxes and parking tickets, and I'm doing office work for her for the next three months as payment. (We worked out an hourly rate and everything.) Not every day - one day a week - but still.

Yesterday I got the car insured and registered. I need to go pick it up.

Remember how I let it sit for a month?

The storage charges are up to $1500.

Which I cannot ask my parents for, because then I'd have to admit what really happened, and at this point I'd be in as much trouble for lying as I would be for the original situation.

I've let my friend know. I don't know if she can help me out, because her money isn't unlimited either - the earlier bailout was done by taking advantage of the limits on her credit cards. While she still HAS the room within her credit limits (I know this, because I do her taxes, among the other office chores), it's still a burden.

I've asked my boyfriend, but I have no idea if he can help, either. He's been squeezed for a while because his wife is out of work and they're still paying for day care.

I've asked the towing yard if they can set up a payment plan. The owner is supposed to call me back when he gets in.

I'm 43 years old. If I weren't so damn dysfunctional I'd never have been in this situation to start with.

abi can see who I really am, because my identity is obvious from my mangled email.

help?

Dash, may I offer tea, sympathy, and hugs? That really sucks.

cancel financial distress call, though the emotional one is reduced to the chronic state, with a slightly higher burden now. The acute emotional distress is mostly relieved. My boyfriend's come through. Bless him.

Dash: I'm so sorry. Hang in there.

protecting others' privacy: Ouch! That's rough. I'm glad people came through for you.

Dash: Reading, witnessing.

protecting others' privacy: That sounds really not-fun, but it's good to hear it's not worse than it is.

update on the car/money situation: boyfriend was only able to cover $500.

I don't know where the rest is going to come from.

so I guess I'm begging again. If I get it done by friday, the whole house of cards won't tumble down on me.

[Obfuscated name. Which I do know, btw, as a ML regular of standing. —Abi]

aib, i need a nym munging...

I can coordinate funding/communication if needed.

Abi & Protecting Others' Privacy, I can pitch in with a check for $50, but I don't have paypal and I'm not sure that a check mailed today or (given that it's late afternoon and the post offices will be closing shortly) tomorrow would get there by Friday...

Still, my email is (rot13) pnffl@obbxjlezr.pbz. Give me an address and a payee and I'll send the check right away.

Abi, I don't mind the offer @372 remaining on the board, but it occurs to me it might violate forum policy (some forums are funny that way) so please feel free to delete it if it is. But contact me regardless...

Cassy, nothing in this conversation violates any Making Light policies.

Abi, glad to know it.

I should clarify that I've been on forums which strongly discourage either cries for financial help or offers of same; I'm very glad to know this is not one of them. In those other forums' defense, I presume they're worried about people preying on the gullible, but your assurance that PoP is a long-time member is good enough for me.

protecting others' privacy @370, I may be able to chip in too. How can I get you funds by Friday?

Persephone, I have a PayPal account (and a debit card I can use to access the funds from it without delay) and abi will pass the address along to you (when she wakes up again). Thank you.

I have sent Protecting Others' Privacy's PayPal address to Persephone using the email address from the back end, and to others who have contacted me privately.

If anyone doesn't know how to contact me privately, it's my username at this dotcom.

Protecting Others' Privacy: I've just e-mailed Abi - another rung of the ladder should be on its way to you soon.

I just sent something to Protecting's PayPal. I hope it helps.

I believe I've thanked everyone individually, but I want to do so collectively & publicly here. I'm currently waiting at the DMV with all the paperwork in order, waiting to get the plates to put on my car. Such a relief.

protecting others' privacy: huzzah! I'm glad things have come together.

protecting others' privacy @382: That's great news!

protecting others' privacy @382: Glad to know the car has been rescued and you can breathe a little easier.

I just ran across something really useful-looking on Captain Awkward. I may pull it to the front page for the next DF thread, but I wanted to bring it here and add it to the soup pot now.

Something that informs my work as a therapist a lot is the idea that people often lose track of their lives and fall into dysfunction when they stop being the subjects of their own stories, and turn into objects in other peoples’ stories. Instead of being able to decide who you are and what you want, all you can think about is what *everyone else around you* thinks you are or should want.

This makes me think of the stories Codemonkey (about whom I continue to wonder and hope) tells. But there are so many people here whose family tries to turn them into objects in a narrative they don't really matter in, and obliterate the stories of which they're heroes.

That entire comment reminds me of something I heard in a recent conversation: "You were a precocious kid like me—and we were programmed to please."

It wasn't even a matter of feeling like I wasn't telling my story anymore at some point. Until about 3 years ago, I never felt like I was telling my story in the first place.

So my sister's wedding went amazingly well, given the various DF ways it could have trainwrecked. Starting with the fact that my stepmother (who works two jobs) kept trying to be the mother of the bride, the matron of honor, AND the wedding planner, which led to a lot of important things falling by the wayside or being ill-planned or executed on the day.

From the point of view of the attendees, everything was hella late but awesome, so that's about the best it could have gone, I suppose. :->

My dad reined in his Captain Inappropriate tendencies to a degree I did not know he was capable of, FOR WHICH SO MUCH THANKS.

I gave my daughter unlimited 'tablet' time with my touchscreen device (onto which I'd freshly loaded a bunch of games she'd never seen before), so Normal Four-Year-Old Tolerances were mostly not exceeded, despite the schedule being a trying one from her point of view. She checked out of the last few 'everybody in the bridal party' photos but was in the important family ones, so who cares. She tolerated the very long, very delayed dinner at the reception (because the bride's return to the hotel was well over an hour later than the hotel was told to expect, I bet they didn't actually start cooking a lot of it till she got there, so the courses took forever) amazingly well, engrossed with my tablet and not making a fuss.

Then she got her cake and her dancing and was charismatically, awesomely entertained (and entertaining; the wedding photographer was totally rapt for a while) for way longer than I thought she would be before a minor trip-and-fall tipped her over into ALL THE CREYS. "This room is TOO LOUD. I wish it were not flower-girl day. I want to go home and stay there ALL THE DAYS!"

But by then it was 10:30 at night so I totes sympathize. :->

I got to talk to several family members I don't see often, and John was not pushed past endurance by either (a) kid misbehavior (he was child-primary yesterday) or (b) Family Shenanigans, of which there mostly weren't any.

Dayenu.

Also, there were lightsaber battles. Because this was a geek wedding. :-> And I got to explicitly come out to some relatives who hadn't taken the mild blanket-to-family announcement seriously. Including my grandfather's first cousin, who took it all way calmer than I was expecting someone of his generation to! So yay.

And I got to carry my sister around on a chair in the hora, so I'm happy. :->

Oh, and also: Dancing stormtroopers. Taken by me and slapped into ani-gif format, so kind of rough, BUT STILL AWESOME.

The best thing about my brainstem having decided I really wanted to be completely awake at 5:30AM the morning after the wedding is that I got to crop, edit, and post my pix before anyone else. FIRSTIES, yay. :->

Sleep would have been better, but if I had to be awake, at least I got bragging rights out of it. And the Happy Couple can wake up to facebook notifications of schmoopy photos of them slowdancing together.

Bricklayer @388-390: Really glad that your sister's wedding went so well, particularly that it didn't involve you running out of spoons (your daughter running out of spoons at 10.30 at night is to be expected!). Well done in your fore-thinking for keeping her entertained; that kind of occasion can be boring for a young child).

Thanks for the dancing stormtrooper - fun.

And well done finding something positive and constructive to do with your early-morning awake time. Hope you get a chance to catch up on sleep.

Bricklayer: I believe the right reaction here is "Mazel tov!"

And hooray for tablets and their superior kid-amusing powers.

She lasted until 10:30 at night? Seriously impressive. Plenty of adults are starting to fray around the edges by then.

side note, I salute your sister's bravery about the chairs. I laid down the law ahead of time that there would be NONE OF THAT, THANKS, at my own wedding, because however improbable it seems for a person who loves roller coasters as much as I do, I am TERRIFIED of the chair-lifting bit.

And hooray for your family reacting calmly to your own news, too.

Here's hoping the next week goes just as well or better!

Bricklayer, I'm so glad the wedding went well! Sounds like your June is getting off to a sane start at least.

Hooray for the wedding going well!

And dancing stormtroopers under multi-colored lighters are even better than regular dancing stormtroopers.

Ack! Abi, could you obfuscate the name in the previous comment, please? The wedding was discussed both here and in the open thread, and I inadvertently crossed nyms too.

Persephone @395:

Done

Rikibeth: The officiant actually had to teach most of the attendants how to say "Mazel tov!" properly for the break-the-glass moment ... because a bigger collection of goyische whitebread blondes (from his side) I've seldom seen. :-> Three of the chuppah-holders were from 'our side,' but it was particularly wanted to get a groom-related person involved. Given the small selection (only a subset of his family/friends could come; many of the males of it were already groomsmen), only one was available; when recruited, his reaction was along the lines of nervousness that he might 'do it wrong' and 'was it hard'.

For the readers who've never attended a Jewish wedding, the chuppah is kind of like a ceremonial mini-shade-fly, a square of cloth atop four poles. The poles each rest on the floor, and a guy at each corner holds onto them and keeps them from shimmying around. NOT HARD. :-> Though it does mean you're standing up there the whole flipping time, which my elderly cousin found wearing eventually (but he was very happy to do it, just spent most of the reception sitting down after).

In re the chairs, we really only got her waist-high (forearms under the seat, horizontal), because half the hoisters only grabbed it adequately for that lift. Her husband went a bit higher, but not much (I think his average lifter was taller). I think there ended up being like six of us surrounding her, lifting her in a standard hotel-ballroom type chair, so I'm not sure there was any chance of mishap; certainly her torso was surrounded on all sides by bodies. :->

The goyische attendees at the reception were also generally somewhat taken aback by the hora, sitting and watching it as if it were a National Geographic display. Usually when I'm at weddings with one, almost everyone ends up involved by the end, but for us, it stayed below about 25 people.

abi, #386: Thank you for that link. After reading the initial post plus as many of the comments as I could deal with (many of them were actively painful for me to read), I have re-thought an aspect of my own relationship with my partner and will be changing some of my behavior accordingly.

Lee @398:

I've found it a very thought-provoking thread myself. I have some scripts to rewrite. Not so much about objects in others' stories, but about the main thrust of the letter and the subseqent advice.

Bricklayer: I've only been to a few weddings that used active chuppah-holders in addition to static support for the poles. My family seems to think it's unnecessarily Orthodox, or something.

OTOH, I've never been to one where the chair-lifters didn't raise the couple over their heads. Not for me, thanks!

It's only recently that my dad and his brothers have determined that they're no longer able to show off with a kazatzke. Given that they're all in their seventies now, I suppose it's to be expected. They never did bottles-on-the-heads, though, because our family doesn't go in for the homburg hats to support them.

I wonder if the white-bread relatives who sat out the hora would also have sat out a conga line? They're about as simple and about as participatory. I suppose that it's long enough past Harry Belafonte's heyday that they wouldn't have heard Hava Nagila through him, either.

Still sounds like it was a successful wedding.

Rikibeth: I can testify that Greek Orthodox wedding receptions feel familiar to someone used to Jewish weddings. :-> There's even a very hora-like line/circle dance thing, and the guys holding their arms wide while they do Manly Dances (to many similar-rhythmed songs).

My (British but very hellenophilic) father-in-law is particularly hilarious once you give him enough grappa, because he's been to Greek-island village weddings and will attempt ALL the local dance moves with a mien of intense put-on seriousness. I'd love to see him at a proper Jewish wedding reception. Though I'm not likely to get another out of my nearish family for a decade at least (given ages and proclivities of cousins). Ah well. This was a good one. :->

It's been a rather busy past week for me -- last Saturday (the 1st of June) I went to Durham Fine Furniture (formerly Durham Pine -- but another firm bought the name) with my dad to pick up a new bed for my sister (her old slide-store bed had worn out). So at least I know a good place to buy flat-pack pine furniture, for when I do eventually manage to move out! My mam always had a low opinion of the Swedish superstore, saying their wares "look like garden furniture" and anyway. our nearest is about 30 miles from home anyway! (Less than 2 miles from work though!) I had to help my dad put the new bed together (even though it was identical to my own bed, which he'd put together the week before his brain haemorrhage), as he was getting so confused with it, after which he smashed up the old worn-out bed so I could take it to the local dump (which about a one-mile drive away).

My dad attended his dad's funeral on Wednesday, so I dropped him off at his aunt's house in Sunderland on my way to work. I remember my mam saying how her own parents arranged their funerals to cause the minimum of distress to my sister and I -- not only did we never attend (I went to work as normal, and my sister went where she goes as normal), but they were also arranged for about 10 am, so that I wouldn't even have to see my mam and dad in mourning clothes. My mam thinks this was very considerate of them, and suspects that my cousin had a nervous breakdown (which resulted in his being fired from his job) largely as a result of being required to attend his mother's funeral. I'm not sure if losing his job is the reason he lost his home though -- my mam got her dates wrong the first time she told me and he was actually foreclosed only a month after he lost his job (which implies he had been in arrears beforehand). I think that even though he'd put down 50% of the value as a down payment, he was still asking for trouble trying to buy a house when in a minimum-wage job -- perhaps it was one of those mortgages where the interest rate shot up after the first 2 years?

(Incidentally, as an aside, I wonder how much history explains why mam regards private renting to be something to be avoided at all costs? After all, from roughly the 1960s to the 1990s almost no-one rented privately in Britain, as private landlords were largely wiped out by a combination of regulation and the large-scale post-war council house building programmes. Thatcherism reversed this as almost all of the council houses were sold off. I'd agree that private renting and/or apartment living are bad ideas for families but I don't see why they're a bad idea for singles or couples. Perhaps it's mam's "children should live at home until they're ready to raise a family of their own" ethic coming into play here?)

I had the Thursday and Friday off work, because on Thursday my car was due for its servicing and MOT. I took my dad along with me for a look out (we went into Durham on the bus while waiting for the car to be sorted, not having to pay thanks to my dad's bus pass), and my mam also told me to check out the furniture shop again (as she'd seen a set of drawers which had been reduced, and which she was begging me to let her buy me). I decided to go for it, but putting it together was something of a nightmare (again my dad and I shared the work, and I ended up having to re-fit the fronts to the drawers as dad didn't glue them properly and they ended up coming off!) I think mam's plan was that my old set of drawers would go in the shed to make things tidier there (it was currently an utter disaster area inside).

On Friday, I went out with my mam to Hartlepool -- she regarded it as a treat for me as I got some fish and chips there and played on some arcade games, but we also got some shopping done as well. While we were out, dad was assigned the job of clearing out the shed to make way for my old set of drawers (which to my mam was a good way of forcing him to do something about the shed). My main job the next morning was taking Dad's junk from the shed to the dump (there were 2½ car-loads of junk, which given that the shed still looked fairly full after the job was done, would explain why it was so horrendously untidy before!)

Codemonkey in NE England @402: Re. renting, that could easily be one of the reasons for your mother to object to it. Nowadays, the main objection is that with rent and house prices what they are, it's impossible for most people to both pay rent AND save a deposit to buy - hence more people staying home for longer.

However, that's not the position you're in - you have enough for a good deposit. Nor are you in the same situation as your cousin was in: you're not on a minimum-wage job. The reason I'm suggesting renting first (and I think the reason several people here are suggesting it) is that buying includes a number of extra costs (survey fees, Solicitor's fees etc. etc.) that you don't want to pay out for twice if you can help it. Renting first would give you the chance to live in your own place and (a) make mistakes if necessary (wrong area, wrong size of property, wrong type of property); (b) involves a bit less paperwork and (depending on your contract with your landlord) maybe a few less bills to keep track of and pay (not less money, but lesser number of bills). Once you have rented one or two places, and have a better idea what you're looking for, and where, THEN you can buy.

For example, you may find that you love/hate (delete as applicable) a converted/purpose built flat; a single level/split level property; having/not having a garden; having/not having a garage; having/not having off street parking; having gas/electric cooker; having a combi boiler/conventional boiler and hot water tank; having carpets/laminated wood flooring (you'll be very lucky to find decent real wood flooring!); being/not being on a main road; being/not being on a decent bus route; being/not being near a large supermarket; being/not being near a decent railway station; being/not being near a park.... There are all things you might want to consider when buying - and you'll have a much better idea what's important to you after you've rented a place or two.

Note: I'd highly recommend getting all bills onto Direct Debit as soon as possible, preferably having them come out your account (if you have a choice) about a week after your salary goes in (that gives wiggle room in case it's late for some reason, while still having the main expenses go out before you're tempted to spend the money in your account).

Codemonkey, it's admirable that you're still trying to make sense out of what your mother tells you. But the thing you have to remember in doing so is that your mother is an unreliable narrator, and because of this, there may not be any way to make her statements reconcile with reality. There are certainly some topics (such as your competence to live independently) on which she is perfectly happy to say whatever she wants to be true at that instant, no matter how contradictory it is to what she said last year or last week.

Consider also that her complete and unreasoning aversion to the idea of renting may be due to something she heard and internalized decades ago from her parents or similar sources.

For example, my father never bought a used car in his life -- he had a mantra about it: "Buying a used car is buying someone else's headache."* None of my friends (who were generally far less well-off than he was) had observed this to be the case. Nonetheless, when I bought a used car (because the make and model I wanted was no longer available new), he gave me endless shit about it... and that car served me well for years, and went to my husband in the divorce, and continued to serve him well for years. And the car I drive now was bought used; it required one fairly major repair at that time, and another one a few months ago, and aside from that has proved to be a real workhorse -- we put 40,000 miles a year on it easily, with all our convention travel. But I have no doubt that if my father were still alive, he would still be haranguing me about how foolish I was to buy a used car.

* In fact, that's considerably more true now than it was in his day, when people were encouraged to trade in their old car for a shiny new model every year -- and very few cars develop severe problems in only 1 year.

Codemonkey, I'm glad you've had a non-stressful week or two with your family. It's a good recharging time, especially if you plan to move forward with moving out. This is a good time to make decisions-- you can trust yourself not to be acting in crisis mode. It's also dangerous because if your life were always this calm and functional, you wouldn't need to move out or feel nearly as much pressure about staying.

abi @ #386... yes, please, on the top post.

Crazy(and that thread was *SO* informative - dank je wel with a wink towards the gnomes...)Soph

PS witnessing other threads, not able to be present/supportive to the level I'd like; too much HLN at the moment. *sigh*

Witnessing.

(side note) Where did all my time go?

abi @386: Huh. Reading CA's description of the paralyzing anxiety induced by her parents...another angle of parallax. That anxiety is very familiar to me. I never connected that to my mother's constant critique of me, though. Huh.

(I wrote this up last Wednesday but delayed posting it; things have since settled down but not resolved)

Still witnessing, and reading everyone's posts.

There's a bit of a situation going on in my house. The individual events are stressful as it is, but it's worse when you factor in our established dynamics and dysfunctions. I've tried to be concise because I don't have the spoons to type up all the history.

-My older brother was planning to college this fall.

-My brother, G, and I are both on the autism/asperger's spectrum somewhere. He was recognised/diagnosed years before me, which has coloured people's (including our parents) perceptions of him. He's getting more mature as he gets older*, but we're still sort of treating/thinking of him as how he was in the past, I think. There's a lot of history, like I said, and I don't really have the spoons to get it all in order right now. I guess it's like he was "cast" as the disabled one, and I was the comparatively "normal" kid. Like, I just had ADHD and diabetes and a "nonverbal learning disability" but I was smart, so it was a given that I would grow up and Do Things and look after some things for G.

* I'm kind of ashamed at how this feels surprising, like it wasn't something we expected him to do. It's complicated.

-As some of you may remember, I went to college for a two-year culinary program. I did well grades-wise, but I didn't enjoy it and didn't want to keep going. I posted about that in more detail in the DF threads a month or so before the school year ended. That starts with the second post under my read-all-by, for reference. If you don't want to read the backlog I'll spoil the ending: I essentially dropped out after the first year ended (switched to the one-year version and filed the paperwork to graduate), with no intent on going back for round 2. Parents were not happy. I do want to go back to school for something, but I have no idea what. I'm trying to work on that.

-The program my brother was accepted into is more of a support program for people with intellectual disabilities who want to go to college. The student gets to do a different program with this one as a...modifier, I guess? I'm not sure how to explain it. When I was at school, there was a young man doing the culinary program through this "support" program. He got accommodations like an assistant (not sure what the official title is) who went with him to most of his classes, and more time to complete the program. He took less than a full courseload (eg, 4 semesters to complete a 2-semester program) while qualifying as a full-time student. So ideally, that is what G could do.

-There's only 10 seats for that program at this college, because that's how many assistants/support workers they have.

-Your choice of programs is limited to ones that have open spaces left AND accept students from the support program (it has a name, but I'm hesitant to use it since it's a regional program and I'm trying not to make my location too obvious).

-He had narrowed his choices down to veterinary assistant or culinary. I was advising him against culinary, for reasons I felt were valid but I'm not actually sure about that. Our parents were stressing that he make his final choice very carefully, since this wasn't an easy program to get into, and it's pretty much his only avenue to go to college.

-He had a meeting with the coordinators on Wednesday, and found out that there aren't any spots in those programs. The only openings left are in two programs he has very little chance of succeeding in (graphic design and music), so he's pretty much out of luck. Parents aren't happy.

Okay, this is what I wanted to say about all this:

I am feeling stressed out by all this! My mom was in the hospital** for the last week of May. One visit just turned into her and dad trying to make it Very Clear to G that he had to take this Seriously. I was sort of trapped by politeness in the room with this lecture that was really uncomfortably close to what I'd been told before. I eventually left the room, but it keeps coming up. Not the part about being So Very Lucky to get into this program, but the part about how it's time for him to grow up and "the fun part of your life is over" and work/school being mostly Suffering. Actually, that was my dad, that's all stuff he said.

**she's not exactly better, but she's home and waiting on the doctor(s) to get their act together so she can go back and get things dealt with before they get worse.

I think both our parents have similar/the same concerns for their kids, but my mom doesn't have this undertone of "...but you're probably going to fail, because you're lazy/childish/selfish/unwilling to work, and the way you sit around refusing to try is pathetic" when she talks about how I need to get a job. With my brother, there's the addition of "stupid", which is barely an undertone. My dad treats us both with kind of derision, and it's been clear for a long time that he thinks G is an idiot. I say "us both" but he also derides my mom's karate and language classes. I think he feels like she's abandoning him/"the family" in favour of her hobbies, which are stupid anyway, so she's extra rude for having them. [sarcasm] Why can't she just watch movies with him or something? Why does she keep going to the coffee shop by herself? Jeez. It's like she doesn't like being at home all the time! [/sarcasm]

Dad's role in all this is, I dunno. He's barely helping. He's useful, but not supportive; he'll drive you where you need to go and he'll buy what you put on the grocery list, but he mostly fends for himself. My mother, like I said, was in the hospital. She'd been having gallbladder attacks for a while now, and the last one was bad enough to have her hospitalized. Short version: she's fine, but uncomfortable. She has to be careful about what she eats now, and my dad has made only a token effort to support her. As I said: he buys the food she asks for, he's not trying to sabotage her. But the "family meals" (which means everyone except my brother) he's been making have been in no way tailored for her. The last two meals were things my mother cannot eat, and when I pointed this out to my father he essentially said that her needs (very low fat, small portions) were so specialized that it wasn't worth the bother and she could make her own food. I really wanted to slap him but I didn't. Mom and I have discussed these things and we agree that he's kind of shitty. Sigh. I've got a lot more to say about my dad specifically but I'll save it for later I guess.

I'm worried for my brother. I hate hearing my dad talk about this like G is bound to fail. I'm irritated with my dad for being so damn unhelpful and selfish. I'm trying to help my mom but I'm low on spoons and still adjusting to the insulin pump (also food-related; that's kind of another post in itself).

Witnessing, and to Phenecious @409 that's horrible! Hugs if you're open, and a listening ear.

To Bricklayer #397: A hora! I would have been in there like a dirty shirt! Sitting it out and staring like it was a National Geographic special. Pah. Some people's children! *g* So glad the wedding went as well as possible. :) And holy cow - the kidlet lasted until 10:30? That's amazing for any kid!

A quick note from this end. Thank you Abi for posting that link to Captain Awkward. I read the letter, and the response, and it helped. Suddenly, I understand why the woman my husband frequently describes as graceful was convinced until very recently that she was an awkward klutz. I probably was, around Mom and the "best friend" she wouldn't let me let go because the girl treated all her friends so badly the rest all left her, so she had no one else.

In other news, I was at my parents' place today helping Mom to repaint the living room/dining room/entry area (just a refresher, so only one coat, but still a really big job). I came home feeling that all the grumps and snapping were entirely my fault, and that I should really be more responsible and patient and lalalalala. Ranting to Wonderful Spouse made me realize that no, it's not okay that she (in the heat, granted) called me a liar and accused me of making up/misremembering things that she said. I talked about this earlier - it's not gaslighting because she honestly has an entirely different memory of the past than the people around her. I ended it by saying "If I have to be able to quote back to you verbatim every thing we've both said, then I might as well go home." Mutual apologies, and things went back to mostly comfortable.

I just wish she'd quit interfering with what I'm doing ("helping") after the first, second, or even fifth time I ask her politely, and not wait for me to yell at her... It's training me to be grumpy around her because that's the only way she ever listens...

Phenicious, I think it's really good that you're talking to your mother about your father's shittacular behavior. Have you mentioned it to G? It might help G to have someone else confirm that your father's manners are not helping in the slightest.

Phenicious: reading and witnessing.

Phenicious, do you know if it's possible for G to defer his admission into the support program until next year to get into a specific training program? It would seem like they would want to set him up for success.

More generally, reading and witnessing but short on time to respond.

Hi all-
I could use some good thoughts heading my way...
a couple of key folks at the office (one of which has shown up in my prior 'person at office triggers memories of dysfunctional childhood' posts) are behaving a bit ominously [odd quiet treatment, no new projects heading my way].

I'm feeling some fear ahead of a meeting with the big-boss later today. Hoping its my usual worrying about what doesn't happen, because I don't actually want for my fears & tapes to be validated.

Variants @414,

Good thoughts, as requested.

Variants @ 414... May your fears be unfounded.

Variants, good thoughts going your way.

(Been reading and witnessing the whole time...just responding to the last few.)

Jacque @408:
I find that there's nothing that makes me so thumb-fingered as being watched, particularly critically. And there's nothing that makes me so foot-mouthed as having everything I say examined under a microscope for ill intent.

But it's still hard to identify the phenomenon at the time, and realize it's a toxic situation rather than just Dorky Me coming out again.

Phenecious @409:
I hope that breaking the silence with your mother about your dad's behavior helps. So often, having someone else see the problem helps turn it from your problem (which it isn't) into his.

Also, see the subthread about how having someone relentlessly critical and expecting you to fail affects your chances of success.

I've been learning a little bit about NVLD lately, for $reasons. How did you find out about it? I've read that the typical diagnosis pattern involves kids who were doing well at school losing ground for what looks like no good reason (until someone figures out the diagnosis) -- did that happen to you? Could that be tied to your father's perpetual miasma of disappointment?

Chickadee @410:
Well done for tackling the issue. Maybe one day you can have the conversation about changing behavior before you have to grump. Here's hoping.

Variants on a Theme @414:
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Phenicious: Otter B @ 413 already said what I was going to suggest. Other than that - sympathies for the situation. Also, it's not surprising you're stressed out. Additionally, well done in getting started with the insulin pump - I know that was a big thing for you. Hope you get properly adjusted with it/used to it soon.

Variants on a Theme @414: Good thoughts being thought for you.

Phenicious #409: FYI, NVLD is currently considered part of the autistic spectrum. AIUI, the spectrum at this point basically runs: subclinical (no disability, thus no diagnosis), NVLD, Asperger's and classic autism. There's also Pervasive Developmental Disorder, which is a miscellaneous bucket for the category.

Abi #418: That's more or less what happened to me, but in college (basically, when I couldn't coast on raw intelligence anymore). I wound up self-diagnosing (yes, NVLD) from a book at age 39.

Probably punctuation irregularity.

Dave Harmon @420:
I'm seeing a lot of disagreement about whether NVLD is on the spectrum. Certainly, in my neck of the woods, it's not a parallel construction with autism or Asperger's, not in diagnosis or in the way (for example) schools deal with them.

Given what I've come to understand of the two, I think it would be an unhelpful elision to map them together. NVLD is about which hemisphere of the brain functions best in processing inputs and producing outputs. Both autism and Asperger's tend to include sensory issues as well as processing ones.

There are things they have in common, such as trouble reading non-verbal social cues. But NVLD generally includes difficulty with pattern-matching, while autism and Asperger's both count that as a strong point.

(This is a very high-level summary of what I've been learning, which means it's almost certainly wrong.)

abi #423: IIRC, "your neck of the woods" (Netherlands, Europe in general) is well ahead of we USAians on matters autistic, so you're probably better informed.

I'm not sure just what you mean by "pattern-matching" -- I have difficulty recognizing faces (and other things), but am quite good with jigsaw puzzles and the like. I've recently known a couple of Asperger's folks (one my age, one "kid" of college age), and have been thinking of myself as "half an Aspie". Probably time to do some more research, but weeding out the bogus stuff from searches on this is a PITA.

PS: I also do get sensory overload easily.

Gah.

I knew, going in, that I tend to have a better time if I limit my visits - optimal is about once every three weeks. But "we're repainting the interior of the house, can you come help?" seemed innocent enough. I mean, I'd go over there, do efficient job, come home - limited interaction and focus on a common goal, right?

Never mind Mom's procrastinating badly and then denying it vehemently when I said it was bothering me that we were going so slowly, and much more interaction than I'd hoped for.

Today was the third day in a seven day period. It was... well, I don't usually swear much, and I was flinging f-bombs wildly when I got home and was able to unpack to Wonderful Spouse.

Apparently, all the problems in the relationship are All My Fault, because I'm always misinterpreting what she says and it hurts! Not that she gets defensive when you ask her to change a behaviour (she reads it as you're telling her she's a freak and a failure), not that she rewrites history so she honestly doesn't remember anything cruel, hurtful or inappropriate that she's said - nope, it's me lying and making things up and taking what she says out of context, etc. etc. etc.

Until I had a reliable outside witness (boyfriend/ fiance/ now husband), I thought I was this freak who made up stories in my head then told them to other people as fact, in particular about what Mom had told me. I met Spouse when I was in my late twenties. That's a hell of a lot of training.

And now, this. I promised earlier to go back for one more painting job. I hope I can put it off for a month to let things cool down... It'll be a two consecutive day thing.

At the very least, I'm now aware that it's not my fault. I'm not a grumpy, self-centered person who picks fights and always needs my own way and lies about other people. Not saying she is - just saying I finally *know* that I'm not.

Can I just check something?

You are sitting around the table with several people. Some of you start talking about $subject. One person says, "$subject really upsets me. Could you please not talk about it when I am here?" (tone of voice is 'upset')

How do you respond? I mean, what's an appropriate reaction?

"I'm sorry. Let's talk about something else. Last time we got together, you said you were getting a pet wombat. How's it doing?" (Assuming arguendo that the upsetting topic was neither pets nor wombats.)

Fooey @427:

What Abi said. "Oh. Sorry. How 'bout them Cubs?"

Which is to say, acknowledge the hurt/mistake and IMMEDIATELY move on. Don't dwell on it; don't ask why, and absolutely don't keep talking about it.

There is one, and only one, exception: if it is absolutely vital territory to talk about that cannot be put off (like, "I'm sorry you're so upset I'm going into the hospital in two hours, but we really, really have to make logistical plans right now.")

This sort of thing is rare but it does happen; even in such circumstances, acknowledge the hurt and don't minimize it or question it.

Later, in a private setting, it MAY be appropriate to explore why this subject is painful. Or not. That is so very dependent on the people and situation that there's no hard-and-fast rule, but it's dangerous territory so tread lightly...

abi and Cassy B. are right. Also, the wombat has an unfortunate tendency to eat gold lace off people's best hats, though it doesn't hurt his digestive processes (she says, looking at the wombat stuffed toy that is sitting across the room next to the sloth stuffed toy).

Fooey, that sounds like a completely appropriate request, as it is, and the response I hope I and most people would give it is, "Oh, sorry. What's your favorite puppy?"

The puppy thing is because I often don't ask for a change of subject so clearly; I say, "Wouldn't 'puppy reviewer' be the best job ever?" or, "What's your favorite puppy?" until the person, often the boy (specific, not generic), changes the subject. Your change of subject is much clearer.

The other potential exception would be if you genuinely need to ask about the borders of the topic, but you only get one of these and it has to be asked neutrally, not with annoyance. E.g., should we just drop $issue, or would you rather skip politics altogether?

A Sherlock fanfic that touches on a lot of DFD-related stuff and involves a protagonist coming from a place of having been pushed down repeatedly by her husband to step out, make choices, and WIN: entitled "Rigging screws, size 1 3/8 inch, galvanised".

No knowledge of Sherlock required beyond 'he's an amazing detective'; he is in no way the main character of this piece. Caution: The plot involves the investigation of a murder, and the protagonist has been living in a VERY DFD situation for years ... and it's written with all the internal scripts one develops in that situation. May be triggery for some people.

I found it really hard to read but amazing and cathartic and I just have no words.

#426 ::: Chickadee

One of the realities we of the DFD set must struggle with is that, yes indeed, some people WILL NOT EVER acknowledge their part in any interaction that has injured you, including the reactions, "It really hurts me that you're telling me you're hurt!" or "But it's only because you're SO misinterpreting my intention!"

Crazy(because, yeah, every family will call the eight-year-old girl "Stink-pot" until she cries, but hey, it's all because we love you!)Soph

PS Uhm... heh. To me: triggered, much?
PPS Chickadee,... strength to you.

crazysoph @434 One of the realities we of the DFD set must struggle with is that, yes indeed, some people WILL NOT EVER acknowledge their part in any interaction that has injured you, including the reactions, "It really hurts me that you're telling me you're hurt!" or "But it's only because you're SO misinterpreting my intention!"

Oh yes!

Chicadee @410/434: Sympathies. My mother wanted me to not only be able to quote verbatim but also, her words, by themselves, taken totally objectively, without intonation, body language or history of our previous interactions, had to be objectionable. If I couldn't prove that then, why, I was being oversensitive again!

There's a reason why I carefully limit my time with her, particularly if I've not got my husband there to back me up. I wish it wasn't that way, but it is.

Bricklayer @ #433, read, appreciated and bookmarked. Thanks for the rec!

Phenicious @409: Good to hear from you! Any of those fronts would be pretty stressful by itself, so it's no wonder if you're feeling overwhelmed. Your dad is being horrible. I have this feeling that I'll be hlepy, but today is a no-confidence day and it could be that speaking. Please ignore any hlepy bits?

Your dad is definitely being a jerk when it comes to your mother's medical needs. Someone just out of the hospital shouldn't be forced into cooking all her own meals. I'm glad that your mother can see that he's behaving badly -- it gives you something to build on when it comes to concerns about how he treats you and your brother.

The way your dad talks to you and your brother about needing to grow up and suffer is the opposite of an incentive to grow up. Sure, there is some suffering, but the autonomy and pleasures of learning, growing, finding a vocation and building a family or community are worth a lot. But as I know far too well, it's really hard to be confident and build a good life when you're surrounded by the expectation of failure and inadequacy. Every slip no matter how small feeds the negative perceptions, and there are so few successes big enough or flawless enough to counterbalance them. It makes me wonder if your dad is unhappy and/or disappointed about his own life, and is taking it out on the rest of you. What does your dad have in his life that makes him deeply happy and fulfilled?

Is anyone applying a lot of pressure to G that he must go to college *this* year, even in a program G knows he hasn't much interest or chance of success in? If so, it seems to me that G is being set up to fail and take the blame for it, and that's not going to be good for either your brother or your family. He doesn't just need to complete the program; he needs to be motivated and skilled enough afterwards to make it in that field, and both music and graphic design are creative fields with a lot of competition. Instead, could the assistance program reserve him a slot for next year, when he can get into a program of his choice? And in the meantime, is there some way he could try on the careers he's interested in, to make it easier for him to choose right? Like volunteering for a local vet and a commercial-style kitchen?

Chickadee, #426: At this point I think you would be well within your rights to withdraw your offer of further help altogether. "The last time I came over to help, we both ended up angry and depressed. I don't want to put you thru that again."

Note that this is a variety of judo argument -- it's going to be very hard for her to argue against something which is couched in terms of concern for her feelings.

Fooey, #427 et seq.: I agree with all of these responses, under the stipulation that this is occurring in a normal conversation.

What no one has yet mentioned is that the "Please don't talk about this, it makes me uncomfortable" gambit can also be used to silence people who are trying to express their own discomfort with some type of dysfunctional behavior (cf. Chickadee), and the appropriate response to that is very different. (And will have to be described by someone other than me.)

Bricklayer, #433: I just finished that one last night, and it is absolutely amazing!

dcb, #435: That's even more toxic than my mother. When I quoted her back verbatim (less than 5 minutes later), she would swear up and down that not only had she not said that, she hadn't said anything that could be interpreted as that, and why was I lying to her? MAJOR gaslighting, but it failed because I knew perfectly well that she was the one who was lying -- and she never dared to pull that when anyone else was in earshot.

Lee @404: There are certainly some topics (such as your competence to live independently) on which she is perfectly happy to say whatever she wants to be true at that instant, no matter how contradictory it is to what she said last year or last week.

I think I'd be able to ignore my mother if she questioned my competence to live independently (or my financial ability to do so). what's so far kept me from making my move is fear of reprisals (such as destruction of my possessions) were I to move out without permission, or fear that moving out would cause my mother to have a nervous breakdown.

Consider also that her complete and unreasoning aversion to the idea of renting may be due to something she heard and internalized decades ago from her parents or similar sources.

Quite possibly it was because something her parents told her -- the fifties were apparently the heyday of Rachmanism in Britain, and I can definitely remember my mam saying (it was several years ago, as we were visiting grandma when she said it) that the situation was going back to what it was then, where "if you didn't have the money to buy a house, you were reduced to renting filthy old rooms".

I've sometimes used the "renting = used car, buying = new car" analogy myself in my own head, by the way.

Diatryma @405: Codemonkey, I'm glad you've had a non-stressful week or two with your family.

There was still one unfortunate incident in the supermarket on Friday though. When mam was queuing at the check-out I started biting my lip and slapping my arm against my thigh, which prompted her to order me to wait in the car! Afterwards she said that everyone in the shop was looking at me and that I "looked like someone with Tourette's", and that she couldn't understand it as she hadn't been saying anything unpleasant to me or asking me any questions!

The awful thing is that I knew exactly what triggered it but didn't dare tell my mother what it was -- she'd mentioned she wanted to buy me a new duvet, and for some reason I thought "oh, yet another thing to guilt me into not moving out (given that I'd be unlikely to keep my single bed for long if I got a place of my own)".

At least last night my mam actually said while with me "the only bit of normality you have in your life is when you go to work" (obviously acknowledging that the home situation is taking a heavy toll on me too). Tomorrow my parents will be visited by someone from the Stroke Association -- hopefully mam will do what she said she'd do yesterday, and let our visitor know just how dire her situation is now (which may result in her getting some more badly-needed help)! I think one problem in our house (which makes mam reluctant to ask for outside help) is that my mam is extremely reluctant to have visitors to the house because she's so ashamed of how much my dad has wrecked our kitchen.

I'm wondering if after the visit (on Friday perhaps) whether I should try contacting the Stroke Association myself (and preferably the same person who's visiting tomorrow, if I can track her down) to let them know that my mam has become so desperate for companionship that she's trying to block me from moving out (to the extent of keeping my bank books in her room, to prevent me from getting money without permission). Would that help my mam get the help she needs?

I've also found a (UK-based too) web forum created specifically for siblings of disabled children. I haven't posted there yet, but I expect it could be useful too.

I've got a serious problem with a self-hating internal monologue, and what's worse, it pretty much comes into play (frequently, not all the time) when I try to do something useful, and mostly shuts up when I'm killing time.

I may have blown a very good freelance possibility because I couldn't get myself to do the work.

The attacks aren't reasonable or relevant, and I wonder if part of what sets them off is my having a little more energy than usual.

The problem is amplified by what is probably too much exposure to human potential stuff. I don't go in for the harsher versions, but I still end up feeling as though if I were a better person, a worthwhile person, I'd be able to push through and accomplish something.

I realize this isn't reasonable. And also that beating myself up for symptoms of depression isn't reasonable. I can take that to heart on some things, but not about getting stuff done.

Meanwhile, I can't figure out what I really want, and it wouldn't surprise me if I'm blocking myself from finding out because I'm dealing with so much anxiety about doing ordinary things.

Codemonkey, I think that contacting the association is a good idea.

Nancy Lebovitz @440, there is a book on procrastination that might be helpful if you haven't already read it, but I don't want to trigger more unhelpful self-blame or imply that You're Doing It Rong. If you're interested, I would be happy to say more.

OtterB, thanks for asking. You might as well mention it-- even if I can't get good from it, others may.

I'm going to be a little more explicit about my situation. If I start doing something useful-- sometimes if I think about doing something useful-- a voice in my head is pretty likely to say something along the lines of "You incompetent piece of shit". These days, it's less likely to follow up with "Why don't you just kill yourself?", but I've heard quite a lot of that.

The problem isn't that I'm suicidal, exactly. It's that I've got a voice in my head that is apt to tell me to kill myself. For a while there, if I tried to access what I really care about-- you know, to prove I'm good enough and have a passion like I'm supposed to-- I'd get back something about killing myself. Or possibly dying.

My inability to force myself past (into?) the anxiety is probably self-protective.

Part of the problem is feeling like there's something wrong with me for having the problem.

I could be kidding myself, but I don't think I've got normal procrastination.

I'm getting my thoughts together for proper replies but I wanted to contribute something re: Dave Harmon's #424:

I'm not sure just what you mean by "pattern-matching"

Pattern-matching for me manifests as recognizing/being fascinated by reoccurring melodies, words (eg, cloche: French for bell; a bell-shaped hat; related to "clock", clock towers have bells. I love that sort of connection), symbols etc. I'm not sure if this is to a greater degree than most people or not, because my dad's the only one who's said anything about my picking up on melodies, and he's sort of on the spectrum himself. It's funny, actually: he can tell guitarists apart by the sound of their playing, yet he's impressed when I recognize an actor by their voice. There are probably lots of other kinds of pattern-matching, but those are my examples.

Nancy @440 and 443: I have a slightly different set of problems, but it's the same basic pattern. Giant snarl of anxieties and negative ideas (helpfully installed by my mother and assorted helpers) like some giant tentacle-beast in my head. It wakes up for job-hunting or things related to it, such as thinking about money when income is low, and drags me down into helpless terror and despair. At first I can still get things done though it's slower and harder, but the longer the need to jobhunt or scrimp goes on, the harder it gets to do anything productive, especially if it's big or involves asking other people to help. Eventually, either I distract myself with frivolities or I end up having a breakdown. Until a few years ago, I just assumed that this was normal job-hunting anxiety and that the problem was that I sucked. When the employment services counselor insisted on referring me to the counselling services counselor, I started to twig that perhaps something was really wrong, and the whole therapy and discovering emotionally abusive mother thing all cascaded from there. But little progress has been made on the "jobhunting is the trapdoor over a black hole in my psyche" problem. And I also feel that I should be productive on a regular basis, and I start beating myself up or going into useless self-pity when I can't. I just had almost a month off and I made barely any progress on anything that I really cared about. How the hell does it happen?

Today I finally managed to explain in one go to my therapist how very bad the reaction to joblessness or jobhunting gets -- terror, despair, nausea, sobbing, screaming, etc. -- and that it's been around a long time and keeps getting slowly but steadily worse. I think perhaps it keeps getting worse because of the amount of times I have to force myself to do things through the fear, while rarely getting any good result. Most times, the fear is right, and it's fundamentally a very real, sensible, rational fear, even though it's exaggerated to irrational levels. I now have a shiny new prescription for anti-anxiety medication. I really hope that will help, because I want very much to finish my portfolio and go hunting for a better option than my current somewhat dysfunctional employer.

Addenda: the temp agency called -- my employer has finally gotten organized enough to give me my job back, and it's such a relief that I went from breaking down or hovering on the edge all morning to this evening being under control and somewhat relaxed. But I can't even manage to be happy about it, because I only lost my position in the first place thanks to their own disorganization and crazy internal politics. Instead I am seething at them for having put me through this little bit of hell, and for their inconsiderateness and lack of foresight. They gave the impression that I'd be back in a week, and it's been almost a month, and if their pay system weren't permanently in arrears, I might have gone broke because they couldn't be bothered to tell me that I'd be out of work that long. Is there a polite and professional way to tell a boss that you trusted him to do his damned job, he screwed up and scared you half to death, and that if he ever does that to you again that you'll send someone to break his knees? Especially when the screwup is really many tiny screwups and delays by many people, and a very dysfunctional staffing policy coming from many many levels above?

Cassy B., Serge, Rikibeth, Abi, dcb- 415-419:
Thanks for the good thoughts.

Just remembering to write these worries out, and thinking about how we all share in this - we all have to deal with our tapes, was a big help for a weird day. I didn't stop the tapes entirely, but I could tell myself that what I was hearing was tapes. This distance gave me slightly more energy to deal with one of the perpetrators of the silent treatment.

Codemonkey @439:
what's so far kept me from making my move is fear of reprisals (such as destruction of my possessions) were I to move out without permission, or fear that moving out would cause my mother to have a nervous breakdown.

The former is a change from how you used to think, or at least post here. It sounds like a realistic fear, and something you can plan for.

The latter...it's possible. But if so, that's a sign that she's in pretty terrible emotional shape even with you around. I think starting to put feelers out to get help for her is a good way to address that. I can guarantee you that anyone with any experience of familial dysfunction will (as we have done here) see the warning flags in even the blandest description of your home life.

(If someone doesn't, then move on. They're too sheltered to help. You don't want to be the family they learn the hard lessons on.)

But don't make moving out contingent on getting her the support structure. It's an ongoing effort, and one you can keep working on when you're no longer in the house. Indeed, you may get more help if she can't hide her situation by pouring it all on you.

When mam was queuing at the check-out I started biting my lip and slapping my arm against my thigh, which prompted her to order me to wait in the car! Afterwards she said that everyone in the shop was looking at me and that I "looked like someone with Tourette's", and that she couldn't understand it as she hadn't been saying anything unpleasant to me or asking me any questions!

I don't know if you know -- British Aspie culture may not use the term -- but that's called stimming (useful if you want to google it).

Nancy Lebovitz @440&443:
Well, I am glad to hear the "kill yourself" voice is less pervasive than it would be. I'd really rather you didn't. I think we all would.

Is there something "wrong" with you for having that voice inside you? In the sense that it's not optimal, yes, clearly. But that's "wrong" the way that a broken leg is wrong: it's an affliction, not a definition.

You, the core you who is afflicted by this voice, are not wrong. You are very right. I've been interacting with you online for a number of years, and I assert this with good reason.

Moonlit Night @445:
What you can say to your boss depends, of course, on your relationship with him and your work culture. But I suspect a "thank goodness that's over with! I found that quite stressful. I hope I don't have to go through it again!" is fair comment under pretty much any circumstances.

Variants on a Theme @446:
Sometimes just having the strength to keep going is a victory for the day. I'm glad you had that. I hope things improve.

Patterns and pattern-matching:

Lots of little things all over my life:
* I love numerical palindromes. A number like 36563 pleases me in a way that others do not.
* We used to have colored plastic hangers, at the same time that I had a bunch of colorful shirts. I used to hang the shirts on matching hangers. It felt pleasing to do so.
* I enjoy, on a deep nonverbal level, the sight of a long train with similar-sized cars going around a curve.
* One of my systems diagnostic techniques is to read raw server logs. I can often see patterns in them that others don't, ones that turn out to be significant when analyzed.
* Same thing works for some forms of cipher.
* Much of my moderation is based on pattern-sets. When people use specific words or constructions, or when the commenter/reply ratios go in certain directions (or a host of other, equally articulable things happen), I know to sit up and take notice. I know a lot of moderators who don't do it that way.

All of these things, and many more besides, form a (ahem) pattern of behaviors, strengths and delights that I term "pattern-matching". It's a body of techniques to deal with a large volume of insufficiently-prioritized inputs (which is a fair description of how many Aspies experience the world).

Pattern-matching might not be the correct term. It's also part of the (sorry) pattern with many Aspies to categorize and label things internally, so quite often the vocabulary varies from person to person.

One thng about NVLD is that, on its own at least, it tends not to include the creation and application of patterns as a way to deal with the world. Certainly, the person I know who probably has it has learned pattern-creation and -matching as an external skill. It's not native thinking for them; they have to talk through a lot of what I see and do instinctively.

(Though there's a fair argument that "talking through" is "doing instinctively" for someone with NVLD.)

Nancy @446:

I say this not to attempt to diagnose you over the internet, but to add a data point that may or may not be useful to you or others.

My wife spent twenty years with thoughts much as you describe them (being told to kill herself, for example), and she thought it was just a super-negative inner critic. Turns out it was ... actual voices, as in psychosis that went away when she was prescribed meds.

It's likely her father also had them and that's where the "inner critic" story came from, but she honestly had no idea everyone else didn't go around with the same thing, just coping better.

But whatever is the cause of what you're dealing with, what you're dealing with is hard and painful and real and you have my sympathies.

I meant Nancy @443. Ah, morning brain.

Abi #448: I certainly look for patterns, but my fascinations are not on the level you describe. I consider a lot of things in terms of mythic archetypes (I like Shinoda-Bolen's personality systems), elemental systems (like Earth Air Fire Water), Tarot Trumps, etc. But the sets can't be too large, e.g. I don't associate to the Tarot pip cards.

Maybe more after work, I need to get moving here....

Dave Harmon: I can associate to the Tarot pip cards, when I'm in practice (haven't been for years) and when I'm using a fully-illustrated deck on the Rider-Waite model. Vivid emotionally-charged pictures? I can do those.

But that's not pattern-matching, precisely, because the emotional impact of the numbers doesn't carry across suits, or anything like that.

But in a standard deck of playing cards: four seasons, fifty-two weeks, and the number of pips in the deck adds up to 364.

Phenicious, as for voice identification: you mean there are people who don't? I've been told I'm bad at faces, though I suspect it's just that my housemate and I process "similarity" on different cues, but if I'm sitting not looking at the screen, a familiar voice will cause me to lift my head and go "It's THAT guy!"

How else was one supposed to recognize the guest actors in alien makeup on ST:TNG before IMDB existed?

I've learned to identify Jamie Bamber's voice in both UK and American versions (which is a trick, as he does some very fine gradations of class markers for different roles in his UK accents, but the timbre doesn't change much) but when directors have Ioan Gruffudd use an American accent I'm lost.

Okay, my fangirl is showing. As those are the main two actors who I care about seeing in guest roles. :)

Rikibeth @452: That talent actually gave me a problem in Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, because the 'lifelike' CGI humans were just close enough to actually realistic that they kept fighting in my head with my instinctive knowledge of what the actor-whose-voice-that-is looks like, and disrupted my identification loop in a way that a plain straight-up cartoon wouldn't.

It was also good enough that it looked like bad acting and not bad CGI, which is definitely a paradigm shift. :->

Yeah, the few times I've had an "actual" voice in my head (if that makes any sense) it was quite different than what I think of as "tapes." I think Oliver Sacks points out in Hallucinations that most people have auditory hallucinations at some point, but the stigma attached to "hearing voices" is great enough that it doesn't get talked about much. At a level to interfere with one's life is different, though.

@Codemonkey #439: Also worth considering: In a country where professional help is available, possibly even for free, why should you be your mother's prop against decompensation? Just because it's what she's used to doing? Using a plunger on the sink every single time one does the dishes may be familiar, but it doesn't obviate the need to have a plumber look at what's going on!

And you don't have to be the plunger if you don't want to.

Moonlit Night @445: "jobhunting is the trapdoor over a black hole in my psyche"

That's a really...apt description. This has been the presenting problem every single time I've sought help from a counselor. And I have never gotten useful (any?) assistance with it. My abreaction isn't quite as bad as yours...quite.

And I could really use some help on this, as I am currently in a job that, while adequate, is only just, saps my emotional and physical energy, and has me perpetually on the brink financially. I need to find a better job. Doing so is...not happening. And hasn't been for five years.

@everyone who answered: Thanks.

Jacque @456: It's going to be a while before I'll know if the anti-anxiety drugs are any help. If those are enough to get a spiral of confidence started then maybe that will fix it.

I have one other lead. The guilt-monster is too big and snarled to count on gradually untangling, so either I need to find the magic thread, or a cleaver to cut through it. But many of the ideas in the snarl relate to authority and how authority is allowed to treat you. The logic behind my spinelessness and despair seems to be that the original authority, parents, treated me very badly and it was very personal. But parents are supposed to treat you better than others do, so what can I expect from strangers like employers? Deep down I expect people with control over my income to treat me badly, and for the reasons to be personal, and since they have control over my income, I have to take it, because I can't count on surviving if I walk away. And unfortunately, I keep on ending up in employment situations where they do treat me badly enough to reinforce the pattern. (Probably not self-sabotage -- more likely lack of confidence preventing me from escaping the pattern.) If there's a way to get at the idea of authority and how it's allowed to treat you, or even just strongly separate parents-as-authority from employers-as-authority, it might help.

Codemonkey, I understand the fear of reprisals, but she'd destroy your possessions? Do realize how childish that is -- if your mam would REALLY do this, she needs help that you can't give her. She NEEDS professional counseling.

Another data point: Are any of the items you fear she'd destroy irreplaceable? If they are something you can walk into a store and buy another, then you've got more than enough money in the bank to do so. Anything you can't buy, if it's small enough, you might want to store it at your office or lock it in the boot of you car.

Codemonkey, what Lori said just above, and also on a practical note: in the US, you can hire movers who will not only move your things in a truck, but pack them up for you on the day you move. It isn't cheap, but if you had strangers in, physically boxing up your things, do you think your mam would really confront them to destroy stuff? And you'd be right there, telling them what was yours and what wasn't.

Moonlit Night: Sympathies. Can't help, because I've got similar problems and I've not worked out how to selve them yet. I've had problems both with bosses specifically triggering Stuff implanted by my mother, and with a general low self-confidence/self esteem so that I'm not good at challenging behavour when persons in (work) authority over me treat me badly. The AVP (Alternatives to Violence Project) courses I went on have helped, and having a fantastic husband has helped, and doing modestly well at my fairly-recently-chosen physical hobby has helped,, and ending up in a volunteering leadership role has helped - and yet, at the time I get bullied /verbally put down by my manager, I don't know how to respond. And I now have nobody at work I can discuss anything with, or express concerns to. It's hard.

Codemonkey -- regarding the stolen bank books:

Take some time off work during banking hours. Go to the bank and tell them that your bank books/cards have been stolen, and get replacements. The bank will change the account numbers, also have them change the address on the account to your workplace, and have them send your monthly statements to your office.

If you do this, under no circumstances do you let these items out of your custody. Either keep them in a safe deposit box at the bank, or if your desk is lockable keep them at work.

I hoped that the visitor from the Stroke Association would have set something in motion that could have provided more help for mam, but unfortunately she dismissed the visit as "a waste of time" when I got back. Maybe if I contact them myself they could suggest something?

Incidentally, this morning I decided to look up some statistics from the 2011 Census to check my mam's assertion that "people here live with their parents until they find a partner". This data was for my own village plus two similar villages nearby (the organization of the census meant I couldn't exclude those without also excluding about half of my own village).

I have noticed that more than 1 in 6 households are made up of a single person under 65 (showing that my mam was misinformed, or perhaps blinded by nostalgia?), but I've reproduced the data in more detail ("dependent child" means under 16, or between 16 and 18 and in full-time education) by below in case it brings anything else to light about my local area.

I'd be interested to know if anyone sees anything unusual about my local area, based on this data...

One Person: 32.0%
--- 65+: 14.3%
--- Under 65: 17.7%
One Family: 63.7%
--- All 65+: 8.8%
--- Married Couple: 32.6%
------- No Children: 12.7%
------- Non-Dependent Children: 7.4%
------- At Least One Dependent Child: 12.6%
--- Cohabiting Couple: 9.8%
------- No Children: 4.0%
------- Non-Dependent Children: 0.8%
------- At Least One Dependent Child: 5.0%
--- Lone Parent: 12.5%
------- One Dependent Child: 5.1%
------- Two or More Dependent Children: 3.5%
------- All Children Non-Dependent: 3.9%
Other Household Types: 4.3%