Bruce Schneier on the recent surveillance revelations.

I remember when I first read this, and it doesn't stop feeling true. I love the idea of a more dynamic folklore, of industrial myths and personified science.

My own contribution comes from my grandmother: if you go under a moving train on a bridge, you can make a wish and it'll come true.

There are direct parallels between this and the work of the Opies (The Secret Lore of Childhood, for example). There are tales and jokes that little kids tell that adults just don't get to hear, and there have been for a long time.

The real question is how persistent these stories are going to be. Has anyone done a follow-up to find out if these stories are still being told in Florida, or if they've spread? There's probably a PhD in it for someone who wants to compare stories from Florida, New York, LA, and Chicago....

I first read this over ten years ago, and it's still as amazing as it was then: human storytelling, as necessary now as it was around the first campfires.

By the way, the story of La Llorona was used by Ursula Vernon in the backstory of her Hugo-winning webcomic "Digger". Young priestess Murai was sent to investigate the stories told amongst children in a nearby coastal city, about the terrible weeping goddess the Black Mother.

Parts of this story show up in one of the Lackey-Edghill urban fantasies -- "Spirits White as Lightning," IIRC.

Still makes the hair on the back of my neck rise "...and I shiver when the winds blow cold..."

La Llorona also shows up in Sam and Max: Freelance Police. That makes for a really odd crossover possibility....

Sam and Dean face La Llorna in Episode 1 Season 1 of Supernatural. Nick Burkhardt meets La Llorna in Episode 9, Season 2 of Grimm.

Weeping women who foretell death are old. Very, very old.

I have no doubt that the story is true.

The thing that really strikes me to the heart is their theology. Those kids are trying to make sense of a world where the children are facing all-too-real evils, while the few adults who hope to help them seem almost powerless. Where has God fled, indeed?

That is simply astonishing.

La Llorona existed as a piece of Latin American folklore before she was blended with Bloody Mary by the street children of Miami, and that's probably what Supernatural and Grimm drew upon.

Vernon, and Lackey/Edghill, OTOH, drew upon the Miami specific idea. I wish I could articulate why the Vernon version was fine by me, but the fact and timing of the Lackey-Edghill one irked me enough to not buy or read the book. It was very soon after the article came out, and it looked from the blurb like it was taken from the article a bit too verbatim, but I can't really be sure. I just no I went "NO" and stuck to it.

I think something I wrote earlier was gnomed. Either that or it vanished into the ether....

And Supernatural blended La Llorona with the Vanishing Hitchhiker, well established long before she turned up in Dickey Lee's pop song "Laurie", whereas they gave Bloody Mary her own episode.

That's heartbreaking.

I love this article. It's part of why I want a Motif-Index. (Quick Google:http://www.katavila.com/alfred/motifs.html)

La llorona (The Wailing Woman)
S12.6. Cruel mother refuses children food.
S142. Person thrown into the water and abandoned.
S131. Murder by drowning.
Q211.4. Murder of children punished.
Q503. Wandering after death as punishment.
E547. The dead wail.

As a matter of taste, I always found working with the Motif-Index more useful and rewarding than the Tale-Type Index.

And then ther's the experimenter's take on the mythology:

http://xkcd.com/555/

Carlo Rotella in the Boston Globe on "Jack Vance's Adventure."

I spent a large portion of my high school years reading pulp fiction instead of doing my homework, and chief among my diversions was Vance’s “The Eyes of the Overworld,” which I reread an absurd number of times. Not only did its darkly comic elegance of language give me a strong nudge on my way to what I would end up doing for a living, but I remember giving silent thanks to pulp fictioneers in general and Vance in particular when I took my SATs. The seemingly idle time I’d spent ingesting Vancian words like punctilio and largesse was suddenly, unexpectedly helping me get where I needed to go.

Am I the only one who's starting to get excited about Open Thread #200? Big round number!

Incidentally, re the recently added defraction about How The American University was Killed, in Five Easy Steps, I also recommend the blog's following post (from yesterday, i.e. ten months later) on Inequality, MOOCs and The Predator Elite:

http://junctrebellion.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/inequality-moocs-and-the-predator-elite/

Stephen Frug @ #17, I read the diffraction, haven't read the follow-up you posted yet, but there's an astonishing story in this week's Sports Illustrated which discusses the enormous expansion of college football coaches' staffs.

According to the Tuscaloosa News, last year Alabama employed 24 noncoaching individuals devoted solely to football (not including graduate assistants) and pays them a combined $1.6 million. Some handle off-field issues such as discipline, while others deal with the minutiae of down-and-distance. As recently as 2009 there was no one on Saban's staff with the title of analyst; last year there were nine.

HLN: Local resident spends about 20min going through his Amazon wishlist, deleting things he honestly is no longer interested in owning, and moving to the 'remember to get from the library' sublist the things that he could see himself reading once and enjoying, but not needing to keep.

945 is pared down to 184: Result!

Stephen Frug #18: All too believable: Down here at UVA we just had an attempted putsch where the Business School folks tried to "fire" a deeply popular university president, in open violation of the actual rules.

One of their nominal "grievances" was not moving fast enough on MOOCs (Ms. Sullivan had in fact been working on it), but the apparent real reason was her not being submissive enough to the business types. The plotters got slapped down on the actual firing, but few of them faced actual consequences, and those due to the public backlash rather than actual sanctions. The rector who led the attempt got reappointed by the Governor.

Brought to our attention by Mary Robinette Kowal...
What happens when a symphonic orchestra's flight is stuck on the tarmac?

"Strings on a Plane"

Serge:

The sound quality on that really impressed me, considering that they're on a plane.

*sigh*

And for "homeless children", here I read, "asielzoekers" - refugees, in English, but they find little refuge here...

Crazy(and moved)soph

THIS IS JUST TO SAY

I've surrendered
freedoms
from the Constitution

which you
probably were
expecting
to cherish.

Don't worry
we're going to be secure
and safe
any minute now

I'm buying plane tickets and one of the most economical options gives me a 12 hour layover at JFK during the daytime on June 26 (Wednesday). I've never ridden the bus (or subway, it says here) from JFK and back, so I don't know how practical the idea is of scooting into town for a looksee (just wandering, and museums, maybe: I don't remember the neighborhoods I used to know back in the ice ages, so no point in a sentimental journey, and I don't much shop) and maybe meet someone for lunch (anybody want to?). Any advice?

This oral tradition might change faster than other oral traditions, if it's in a place where people don't stay long.

(when I was a student, one comment that the faculty would make was that student collective memory was short. That might also be true in that society of children.)

Erik, #27: The student collective memory may be short, but the legends and lore still get handed down. I heard plenty of stories about memorable pranks and such when I was in college, and some of them went back rather a long time. And is there a single student at MIT even now who doesn't know about the football pigeon trick?

Lucy@26:

To go downtown, you'll take the $5.00 "Train to the Plane" (well, the other way around) to Jamaica station, then switch to either the subway or the LIRR.

If things go right, it would take a bit more than 1 hour to get downtown.

If you plan ahead you could take in a couple of museums and a lunch.

Something to consider: I don't know whether the airport still has luggage lockers.

Stefan @29: Thank you!

I don't think I need luggage lockers, as my carryons are lightweight and the checked bag will go straight through.

Now I'm dithering: for a couple hundred dollars more I can have my all-day layover in Amsterdam instead, and I think I remember my way from Schiphol to the Rijksmuseum . . . have to decide in a few hours though.

I think it is because I forgot about how the word of gratefulness is also a word of power.

Lucy @31:

If you decide to go to Old Amsterdam rather than New, what day of the week would you be traveling?

This relates to both (a) how crowded the Rijksmuseum will be, and (b) whether I might be able to buy you coffee.

To get to the Rijksmuseum from Schiphol, either take the train to Amsterdam Centraal station (train station's in the airport) then a tram to the Museumplein (2 or 5) , or take the 197 bus. (Information ganked from the museum's website.) I've taken the train and the tram separately, and they're both very pleasant. I haven't taken the bus, but I've never had an unpleasant bus experience here, so I suspect it's also good.

Abi @ 32... I still think that 2008's series "New Amsterdam", which starred Nikolaj Coster-Waldau as a New York cop who's been around for *many* years, was never given enough time to succeed.

Lucy@30: come to Amsterdam and let's have a mini meetup if you want to.

The buses from Schiphol are quite good and get you into the heart of the city. They're probably quicker and easier than taking the train and then a tram.

Linguistic curiosity: My sister's wedding reception reminded me of something that may be a family-word idiosyncracy. One of my cousins, a man over 70 years old, came back into the dining room from the hall with a plate piled high with scrumptiously chocolate things and enthused, "They've got an Irish open bar out there, and nobody knows about it! Go get some."

It was a buffet table with plate upon plate of petits fours, ganache cake, etc. A dessert buffet. But at my family's weddings, it was always called (by the older generation; most of my younger-than-me cousins had never heard it) an Irish open bar, with the implication that the desserts were more enticing than the liquor (or that the liquor was assumed to be always available, I guess?).

That side of my family is very wrapped up in being Irish (specifically, South Side of Chicago Irish, which is basically its own cultural thing), btw, this isn't an othering term, it's an 'our folks' term. :->

Do any of you have similar family code-language? It fascinates me.

GSV You're in the Wrong Universe for Fair.

I'm off to find a bottle of single malt.

Erik Nelson (#27) "student collective memory was short -- also true in society of children"

I'm not sure I can remember about student collective memory, but I notice that the same jokes (or obvious variants thereof) circulate amongst today's eight-year-olds as I remember from when I was eight. And, as I may have mentioned, or at least suggested, I was eight a looong time ago. This argues for a very robust transmission of folklore in the same age group.

Latin scholars:

As the root of "manipulate" is (human) hand, should work done with a mouse be musipulate? Muspulate?

Technically the original term extends to mechanical work, but I'm not content.

Would muspulation have to be restricted to what gets moved around in T-mazes?

James E. @36: I'm having a dram of Dalwhinnie aboard the GCU Life is What Happens While You're Busy Making Other Plans, myself.

Requiescat in Pace.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the media over here in the UK is full of the news that Iain Banks passed away this morning.

Impossible to miss that shining blue,
the eye drawn outward to the furthest bound
where sense and vision come together drowned
in the immensity of that deep hue
where worlds and hopes are both slightly askew.
Some better wisdom is what we have found
where other souls in torment run aground;
justice may grant an option to renew.
No mind's enough to catch at all we need
for this long voyage through the middle air
though patience grants a chance to set all right
when each has found some soil to plant a seed
and seen it nurtured given proper care
allowed to shoot its blossom into light.

Kip W @25, I note that your plummy poem does not include "Forgive me". I presume that's because even the narrator recognizes that there is no forgiveness for an act like that.
I have to say, the collapse of the Constitution since Bush v. Gore has left me feeling rather as though God had fled Heaven without warning, explanation or a forwarding address.

John M. Burt @42: In writing the poem, I chose to believe that the narrative voice thought he was doing something good. (The idiot.)

re 20: Today at lunch my wife reminded me that we actually had a copy of a book on Japanese codes which I had been unsatisfactorily peeking into using Google Books. I suppose I should go to our LibraryThing first but I'm only a third through cataloging everything.

re student lore: Having gone through boarding school, my experience there was that we had a certain set of specialized vocabulary, mostly having to do either with locations or disciplinary infractions. (I was surprised to learn that the "grass dock" only acquired a name when it became the traditional trysting spot after the school went coed.) Lore about what people did generally didn't survive those who were there at the time.

And highly local cuisine: the last of the kohlrabi harvest is in, and the cook is contemplating a gratin in an Italian vein. The Greek-style pie was tasty but made about twelve servings and required inordinate prep work.

Older @37, the durability of childhood culture is intriguing, especially the fact that adults only rarely catch a glimpse of the real thing, in life.

I remember my surprise and delight, with an aftertaste of disappointment at the loss of its "purity", when the Batman animated series had the Joker sing the children's song,

Jingle Bells, Batman smells
Robin laid an egg
Batmobile lost a wheel
And the Joker got away

45
Stuff like that is passed from one kid to another - adults may remember it, but don't talk about it much.
Glory, glory hallelujah
Teacher hit me with a ruler
I hit her on the bean
with a rotten tangerine...

John M. Burt @ #45, the version we sang had "Commissioner's eatin' hay" as the last line.

P.J. Evans @ #46, and we sang "met her at the door with a loaded .44, and she ain't my teacher no more."

This seems like a good place to mention Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts, an academic study of that sort of children's lore. For those lacking a copy, it's highly recommended and guaranteed to be a real blast from the past!

P J Evans @46: We had a line like that in the chorus of a song whose first verse was:

Mine eyes have see the glory of the burning of the school.
We have tortured all the teachers, we have broken all the rules.
We have played a game of poker and we played a game of pool
In the basement of the burning school!

Chorus:
Glory, glory, what's it to ya?
Teacher hit me with a ruler.
I met her at the door with a loaded .44
And there ain't no school no more.

Another verse we sang (sometimes as an alternate first, sometimes in the middle):

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the Coming of the Lord
He was cruisin' down the alley in a pink and yellow Ford.
One hand was on the throttle, and the other on a bottle
Of Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer!

49
Elliott, that first one is OH yeah. (It's been a long time. I wonder what would happen if it came up at my next HS reunion?)

Here's the book on songs we sung in grade school, Joe's Got a Head Like a Ping-Pong Ball by the Pankakes, who edited the material that was solicited by "A Prairie Home Companion" into one of the best reference books I own.

I don't know, for instance, if it's possible to catalog all the variants of "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory…", but I saw ones here I'd heard before, and ones I hadn't.

There's also a nice little section of songs you can sing to the tunes of other songs.

Elliott Mason @49, P J Evans @46
We also had the loaded .44, followed by "and that teacher don't teach no more".

We had the loaded .44, "and she ain't gonna teach no more".

I wonder if kids singing the same songs we sang would be arrested for making terrorist threats nowadays?

Cally, #53: I was thinking along the same lines. First it was, "Just imagine how much trouble a kid would be in for singing something like that now," followed by, "Unfortunately, I'm not as sure as I used to be that it would always be an unwarranted over-reaction."

When children hear from their parents that firearms are not just an acceptable solution for problems with other people, but sometimes a go-to solution, you don't know how much of it they're going to internalize.

Abi @32, Martin @35: I messed up and when I got down to actually buying the tickets the Amsterdam layor had changed price and was no longer affordable. I snarled and complained for an hour, and even called people up to see if I could do better, before I gave up and bought the tickets with the New York layover.

It's very likely I'll be in Europe again sometime next year, and then I will maybe even have a spot more money so I can be sure of a moment in Amsterdam, so I'll try again then. I remember I truly loved the town when I was there before.

Meanwhile, I certainly will be in Prague from June 26 till August 8, and would be happy to accompany people if they happen to be there too . . . I know my way to some cool things, though I am not an expert on the city (but my daughter-in-law and son might be called that).

I find myself wondering why it had to be a .44

Rhyme and rhythm mostly, but was there a change when the move Dirty Harry was released?

But then I tracked down the .44-40 Winchester which was the standard round for the '73 Winchester rifle, and also used in revolvers of the time. I'm pretty sure that, in the text stories, Hopalong Cassidy used a revolver chambered in the same calibre as his rifle.

So maybe that's why the teacher was shot with a forty-four.

The .44 is a canonical folk-song firearm.

Bad Lee Brown shot Little Sadie with a .44. John Hardy (the desperate little man) carried a .44. In some versions Frankie shot Johnnie with a .44. Those aren't necessarily rhyme-words, either: Bad Lee Brown "went back home and I went to bed / Forty-four smokin' beneath my head."

I'm putting my money on 4-11-44 (by The Blasters). "When your future can't afford your dreams."

arwel @40: With no TV, and not having put the radio on yesterday, somehow I missed it until this morning. I never got into The Culture, although my husband likes the books, but I met him once at a con (probably Novacon) and he seemed like a nice guy. Spoke very well also.

He will be missed by many people.

In Australia, we had Far Out, Brussel Sprout!: Australian Children's Chants and Rhymes (and sequels which included All Right, Vegemite! and Unreal, Banana Peel!). They came out around the time I was in primary school, and I suspect I remember more schoolyard rhymes from those books than I do from my actual schoolyard.

(One or other of the books had "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school" in it -- a variant with the tangerine rather than the .44 -- and likewise the Batman song.)

I'm curious as to why the "Double-blind book reviews" particle describes them as "completely pointless". I suspect they'd be more trouble than they're worth, yes, but not inherently more pointless than any other method of generating a review.

(Mind you, I'm assuming that the idea is for the title and author to be re-attached when the review is published; in this I am perhaps assuming more common sense on the part of the project designer than our esteemed particler does.)

I assume everyone has seen the news the Edward Snowden is the whistle-blower responsible for the news about PRISM? There is a petition to pardon him. I don't have high hopes that he will be pardoned, but I'm hoping that a outpouring of support improves his odds, and improves those of the journalists who worked with him.

I hate to say it, but I'm reluctant to sign a petition like that because I'm afraid of what the government will do with the information that I have. Which is, of course, their intention.

I was on a playground with Actual Current Kids on it recently (I have a 4yo), and they wanted to play freeze tag. They all put their feet in, making a star with toes in the middle, and started counting-off:

"The sky is red and you ARE DEAD, you're out ..."

Immediately two boys protested the use of that rhyme on the grounds that "That's devil-worship!" Apparently "The sky is blue and God bless you" is the preferred method, but gray/you are gay gets used a lot as a diss.

They'd never heard of "My mother told me ..." as a counting-out rhyme, so I showed them its infinite customization (the 'grownup-approved' version when I was little ran "My mother told me that you are OUT" but we ran kind of amuck with wording).

I taught them the Miss Mary Mack hand-clapping game, too, and that reminded me of one that became popular in the mid-80s using a jingle from a McDonald's commercial that had a really, really complex hand-game that went with it. I remember the first verse as:

Big Mac, Filet-O-Fish,
Quarter pounder, french fries.
Icy coke, thick shake,
Sundaes, and apple pies.

There was a second verse (that re-used the complex hand-choreography from the first exactly), but I no longer recall it. I vaguely remember the hand-game showing up because -- rewinding. So McDonalds wrote this jingle highlighting their menu items and shot a commercial of people singing it, with the offer that if you made a video of YOU singing it (in the pre-YouTube world, you MAILED A VHS) then You Might Be In A Commercial!!! So some genius innovator (possibly in McDonalds employ; or maybe really grassroots) came up with the hand-clap game choreography, and then THAT commercial blew up all over and the dextrous girls on my playground drove themselves nuts for a week getting it JUST RIGHT ... and then lording it over everyone else while they did it fast and flawless. :->

I still remember the routine, if not the second verse.

When I want to make myself crazy ... which I'm pretty good at, actually ... I ask what those kids can possibly have done to deserve a life where that myth makes sense.

A country as rich as ours that makes any children live like this had better hope against all hope that God really is missing and not coming back, not just the god of Abraham but any god who loves justice. Because if there is any god who loves justice, we will not escape judgment.

We did 'one potato, two potato' followed with 'my mother told me' (our version of which included 'the very best way').

Though I don't often post here, this is an open thread, and the question I have is most likely to get answered here of all the places I know, including real life.

I'm interested in... comparative Christian theology, if that's a term. Recently someone told me that apparently not every Christian believes that God is omnipresent; I know that some don't believe that God, Son and Father are one, and some don't believe that there's a Trinity at all. The question is, where do I go to find out who believes what? Mostly I'm interested in Catholic and Orthodox theology and how they compare. Another example: I know that there's some sort of difference on the doctrine of hell (absence of God versus presence of God, the former naturally being torture, the latter being torture for evil souls -- I believe), but I don't really know where to go to find, for instance, the official Catholic teaching.

Canon? Writings by theologians? Official Vatican information? Is there some sort of newsletter? There're just so many things written about religion, and I've no idea where to start; I thought I might save myself some effort by asking here. I guess there are many that could help me.

For a theological question, possibly because I post so rarely. All I've got is iced tea.

[For the contraction "there're," but that's so rarely used in spam that I'll take it out of the filters. -- Gorxiu Diesat, Duty Gnome]

Eliott Mason: I can still do that choreography, at least the version we learned at my school.

Tom:

I'm sure that is one goal of the very public process of fucking various people over for making the wrong enemies in the security establishment. People were intimidated about sending money to Wikileaks back when that was possible, and were also intimidated about sending money to defense funds for various whistleblowers. This is definitely a feature, not a bug.

65correction (synapses just clicked):
'my mother told me to choose the very best one and you are not it'.

Changes over time can be fascinating. Don't know how well "There were ten in the bed" made it across the Atlantic? Anyway the version I (in Manchester, northern UK) and my husband (in south-east London, UK) both learned was: "There were ten in the bed and the little one said 'roll over, roll over', so they all rolled over and one fell out and he bumped his head and gave a shout: "please remember to tie a knot in your pyjamas, single beds are only made for one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine in the bed and the little one said..."

However, in the version that his mother and my stepmother learned, it went straight from "one fell out" to "There were nine in the bed". So sometime in the intervening generation, the extra section got added in. How? By whom? On TV? We both use the same tune for the extra section, so it can't just be from a book. I've just had a look online and found lots of examples of the short version, but also several variations on shouting and tying knots in pygamas (e.g. "and he gave a little scream and he gave a little shout", with or without "Yahoo!" appended to the end of that).

Curious.

I learned both "and teacher lives no more" and "and teacher don't teach no more" for "mine eyes have seen the glory of the burning of the school". I preferred the first one for scansion.

For clapping games, there was "Oh Jolly Playmate/Oh Jolly Enemy", with what I think of as the standard Mary Mac crisscross, and one that wasn't local to me at all, but that I learned at overnight camp, which went "Do you know exactly how to eat an Oreo/Well, to do it/You unscrew it/Very fast/'Cause the kid who eats the middle of an Oreo first/Gets to save the chocolate outside for the last!" and the clapping figure involved hands held out placed together as if diving/praying, but horizontally, not vertically, and clapping above and below the midline. I never really mastered that clapping pattern, but I was fascinated because we didn't have anything like it at home.

There were also a couple of variants to "Oh, they built the ship Titanic/to sail the ocean blue", mostly involving whether you added "flush, flush" after "it was sad when the great ship went down" and whether you included the addition "Counselors and campers, little children lost their Pampers" to the final chorus.

Not really kid-lore, but a sign of kid-culture of my era: there were definite bragging rights to knowing the full album version as opposed to the shorter radio edit of "American Pie", as it was a permanent part of the summer camp song repertoire.

rat4000 #67: My first stop would be the massive Catechism.

For other beliefs, you might search on heresies, e.g. A Short Guide to Ancient Heresies.

My friend Angela has the best 'Miss Susie' rhyme EVER. However long yours is? Hers is as long or longer. It is *amazing*.

I have never heard 'On Top of Old Smoky' with the actual lyrics. I know it's a real song, but I don't believe it. It's 'On Top of Spaghetti' or

On top of Old Smoky
All covered with blood
I shot my poor teacher
with a forty-four (gun, mud, whatever).

Also a great many Christmas carols with violent lyrics.

I second the recommendation of Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts if only because it concentrates on North Carolina and the lyrics are wrong. I'm Midwestern and we don't have all the same rhymes.

Speaking of metadata, everyone is aware that the identity of General Petraeus' mistress was discovered through metadata, right?

Here's how it worked:

The two communicated using Gmail, but not by sending each other letters. They had a dummy account, they both knew the username and password, they could thus log in from other locations and read the draft messages that the other had written (nothing was ever sent).

This was all fine, but who was the person with whom the General was communicating? The IPs that the unknown person was logging in from were all public places: e.g. hotels.

So the persons investigating this took the list of times and dates, and the names of the hotels, and compared that list with lists of who had been staying in those hotels on those dates.

Only one name matched. Bingo. Busted.

Rikibeth (73): I suspect that "Oh Jolly Playmate" is the one my classmates* knew as "Hey Say My Playmate".

*I was something of an outcast in elementary school and only observed, never participated
-----------
Diatryma (75): My problem with Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts is that it doesn't include the right ending for the titular song. We always sang "That's what we had† for lunch!"; the book only lists variants of "I'm going to get a spoon!" (My mother hated that song. I think it was the implied aspersion on her cooking.)

†or "...what there is...", if it was still morning

This is the "Miss Suzie" I learned as a kid:

Miss Suzie had a tugboat
The tugboat had a bell
Miss Suzie went to Heaven
And the tugboat went to
Hello operator,
Give me number 9
And if you cannot get it
I'll hit on your
Behind the 'frigerator
There was a piece of glass
Miss Suzie sat upon it
And broke her little
Ask me no more questions
I'll tell you no more lies
The boys are in the bathroom
Zipping up their
Flies are in the meadow
Birds are in the park
The boys and girls are kissing
In the D-A-R-K D-A-R-K D-A-R-K dark dark dark!

I wonder if Elliot and I know the same version of "Miss Mary Mack (Mack Mack)"?

And in "Ten in the Bed", we went straight from "one fell out" to "There were 9 in the bed". (There was 1 in the bed and the little one said "Good night!")

HLN:

Area Woman's church (Episcopal/Anglo-Catholic) sends its usual contingent of clergy and lay-people to march in LA's Pride Parade. Area Woman wonders what the rules are for non-liturgical use of a thurible, and whether the assembled throngs enjoyed getting a lungful of incense.

Mary Aileen:

I learned it as

Say say say playmate (or Girl Scout)
Come out and play with me
And bring your dollies three
Climb up my apple tree
Shout down my rain barrel
Slide down my cellar door
And we'll be jolly friends
Forevermore!

Say say say playmate (or Girl Scout)
I cannot play with you
My dolly's got the flu
Boo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo
Ain't got no rain barrel
Ain't got no cellar door
But we'll be jolly friends
Forevermore!

I remember being surprised as a kid to hear people sing it with the cellar door replaced by other things; they'd never heard of a cellar door. But my next door neighbor had one, so I knew about them (and their slide potential, if short).

Mary Aileen @77: Fascinating! I learned it as ... well, I don't know how to spell it, but it's pronounced See-See. I always assumed it was something to do with Cecelia.

Our (eggcorns may abound?) version (sung during double-dutch jumproping, not with a handgame) was:

See-See my playmate, come out and play with me.
(Something) my dollies three, climb up my apple tree.
Slide down my rainbow, into my cellar door
And we'll be jolly friends, forever more more more more more!

We also did a four-player handgame called Rockin' Robin (whose first verse and chorus were from the hit swing tune except that all the little birds lived on Damen street, not Jaybird street -- actual local street name) whose latter verses went all kinds of "Miss Suzie" not-quite-swearwords territory, and whose traditional second verse was both FULL of eggcorns (in retrospect) and had its own hand choreography sprinkled in to make it harder.

The general pattern involved hands paired for slaps with your partner (simultaneous, not alternating) and then clapping your own and going to the next partner in the pattern. We stood in a square, facing center, and the pattern went Left/Across-up/Across-down/Right (the other pair across started with Right, of course).

The second verse, as we sang it, goes:

Mama's in the kitchen, burnin' that rice (gesture of holding a bowl on one's hip and stirring)
Daddy's on the corner, shootin' them dice (craps-tossing gesture)
Brother's upstairs just raisin' his hair (fingercomb front of hair vertically as if you were picking an afro -- probably an eggcorn for 'raising hell' originally)
Sister's on the corner sellin' fruit cocktail (slap chest, crotch, butt in quick succession -- FAR dirtier in retrospect than ANY of us thought it was when we were 7!)

The 'dirtiest' verse in common use on my playground was SOOOO dirty that we sheltered Catholic-school kids actually sang it WITH BLEEPS IN IT:

Went to the kitchen to get a stick of butter
Saw James Bond sitting in the gutter.
Got a piece of glass, shoved it up his bleep
Never saw a bleeper-bleeper run so fast!

And so on. Some of them were deliberately nonsensical as well as containing random cartoonish ultraviolence or 'swears' or 'I'm going to rhyme towards a swear and not use it'.

My dad's school didn't do Miss Suzie, they did "Cocktail, gingerale" to a different tune but containing a lot of the same rhyme-pair/incidents as my school's Miss Suzie did.

We also had a tag variant called "Ghost in the Graveyard" that, alas, I don't actually remember the rules for. Except that it was played at night with flashlights. The interesting thing about it, though, was the "It" countdown while everyone was hiding. Not sung, just chanted loudly:

One o'clock, two o'clock three o'clock rock.
Four o'clock, five o'clock six o'clock rock.
Seven o'clock eight o'clock nine o'clock rock.
Ten o'clock eleven o'clock twelve o'clock rock.
Midnight, twilight, hope we see the ghost tonight!

Clearly, this is not an ancient chant, though it could have been quite old in kid generations even before I first heard it in the '70s.

Cally @78: Fascinatingly, that's exactly the Miss Suzie I know, except we continued from:

The boys and girls are kissing
In the D A R K
Dark is like a movie,
A movie's like a show.
A show is like a TV set and that is all I know know know!

Also it was usually "The boys are in the bathroom, pulling down their flies"

My school's Miss Mary Mack went (the echoes were often chorused by bystanders, if bystanders were available):

Miss Mary Mack (Mack Mack)
all dressed in black (black black)
With silver buttons (buttons buttons)
up and down her back (back back)
She asked her mother (mother mother)
for fifteen cents (cents cents)
To see the elephant (elephant elephant -- crammed in tightly with giggles)
Jump the fence (fence fence)
He jumped so high (high high)
He reached the sky (sky sky)
And he didn't come back (back back)
Till the Fourth of July (lie lie)
He's back! (waving jazz hands from all)

It was generally sung starting gradually and speeding up and up and up until someone flubbed, so actually getting to the end was exhilarating and well worth the WOOOO and celebration.

Cally @80: I remember the boo-hoo-hoo verse of Playmate, now that you mention it!

There were also several games that involved counting to successively higher numbers (+1 per iteration, etc) with a Miss Mary Mack alternating pattern except the counting at the end involved the following quick three-gesture combo: (a) Going straight across to your partner with both hands, touch/slap the BACKS of your hands together (b) Rotate wrists to immediately slap the PALMS of your hands together (c) clap own hands together. Each backs-of-hands was where the counting number was said, with the rest being just gesture. It went Versey Part/count 1/Versey part/do the pattern twice fast, counting 1 2 and so on.

The McDonalds jingle game I knew involved the praying/diving-but-horizontal hand position mentioned above, with slaps above and below and then some more complicated stuff. I wonder if the people who put the jingle to the motions were re-using from a well-known local game pattern? Also, I found a video of the ad, and another on YouTube of two girls reenacting basically the choreography I know, though I'm sure we didn't have "dish ran away with the spoon" involved.

Jim:

One interesting twist here--the data is collected and stored, but the claim is that it's only looked at with a court order. (And if that's a lie, there will be no consequences at all, so you can totally trust that it's true.) The effect of this is to make sure that you can always go back in time and find out who was talking to, say, the marathon bombers or the Fort Hood mass-shooter. Alternatively, you could go back in time and find out who was talking to the reporter who just broke a big national security story, and try to find out his sources. Of course, nobody would ever use that to dig up information on that reporter to blackmail him, or to justify prosecuting him for some unrelated crime. Because that would be wrong.

Similarly, suppose that by some really unlikely chain of events, a decade from now, I am nominated to the Supreme Court. (Note: I'm not a lawyer, so this would be really surprising on all kinds of levels.) Just in case anyone should happen to need to do it, why, it will become possible to find out everyone I ever talked to in the past. Escort services? Bondage clubs? Medical marijuana clubs? All right there, ready to bring out to derail the nomination with a sympathetic leak, or to use for blackmail later. (Though a sitting supreme court justice is probably very hard to blackmail, since they are all but un-fire-able.)

Now I'm YouTube searching for hand game and keywords, and found a group doing Rockin' Robin with the second verse I know, but different eggcorns and some different gestures (the brother upstairs is 'drinking ginger-ale', for example).

There are lots of videos of teens doing various Rockin' Robins, actually (square eyes are now setting in).

This one is the hand choregraphy I know for Miss Suzie, but different words. Interestingly, the girls in the video seem to know different words from each other too (including a 'bees are in the hive' bit that they don't put the topping rhyme on).

Interesting counting-out rhyme Down By the Banks of the Hanky Panky which sounds somewhat familiar but we didn't count-out with it. Here's two girls doing what I think of as the Big Mac hand game with Down By The Banks words -- and LOTS of them. Same video continues into Miss Suzie with different choreography than I knew and a neat ending variant; then they do several more.

gnomed

[The magic words "escort service" did it. -- Borulent C. Quire, Duty Gnome]

Aha! My counting-game-with-backs-of-hands is also this one: Slide. We had more words, if I recall right. That's the proper choreography, though.

Cally Soukup @82:

We had a "ghost in the graveyard" game too, and I've never encountered anyone else who played it! Ours was a twilight game, no flashlights. One person (the ghost) hid in the backyard. All the other kids tried to run around the house, starting from the front, and the ghost would try to catch one of them (who would then become the ghost) before they made it back to base. So mostly tag, with a bit of hide-and-seek thrown in. I don't remember the counting, and clearly our games were different (since you mention everyone hiding), but now that you mention it I do remember the "hope to see the ghost tonight" bit. (Early 1980s for me).

Y'all had a much nicer version of See-See. We slid down razor blades in our version.

Also from my memory banks:
Eenie Meenie Pespideeni, ooh-bop-bopsedeeni,
Education, Liberation, I love you.
Tuti-fruiti
Down down baby
Down by the rollercoaster
Sweet Sweet honey, no place to go.
Caught you with your boyfriend - Naughty, Naughty,
Stole a piece of candy - Greedy, Greedy
Wouldn't wash the dishes - Lazy Lazy
Jumped out the window - Crazy, Crazy
Eenie Meenie Pespideeni, ooh-bop-bopsedeeni,
Education, Liberation, I love you.
Tuti-fruiti

which appears to be Yet Another Variation on hand-clapping games.

Total change of topic, but hey, it's an Open Thread. I just came acoss this, written in response to Boston, and thought some others might be interested, particularly any other runners:

In defiance of you

[And I also note that the two comments following could act as examples for the "Why ‘Thank you!’ Is A Dirty Word" thread...]

For reference to THOSE WORDS.

Apparently someone was shooting video at my sister's wedding, and has been giving chunks of it to my dad to post on YouTube.

If you wish, you may marvel at the wonder and glory that was the wedding party's arrival at the reception, complete with stormtroopers, a battery-powered R2D2 (inflated by yours truly at the last second), my ADORABLE spawn the flowergirl, and a sword-arch with lightsabers (wielded by actual military officers, who'd neglected to bring their uniforms and Real Swords to the wedding).

I'm in it too, but I am utterly incidental to the affair. Alas, no footage yet of the bride's dress in full-on Wedding Configuration (only Autobot Liz, bustle-transformed to Dance Mode), which was an intentional replica of Padme's wedding dress.

In the words of my cousin, "Best Jewish Star Trek Wedding ever."

And the (hired, awesome) stormtroopers were absolute champs at joking around to keep morale high in the hallway BEFORE we entered, as one thing and another led to stupid piddling delays, compounding. They took a break in the primp room downstairs (where Hair And Makeup had been before the ceremony) and came back up to dance at the reception (my photos) and pose gamely for pictures with lots of my relatives.

Probably for lots of links. I promise they're legit. I have some wedding-favor bars of dark chocolate to share with the gnomes, for their job is a thankless mire of tedium.

lorax:

I can't swear that our Ghost in the Graveyard involved hiding; I don't really remember the rules. Perhaps Cassy will. It definitely involved the "it" chanting, while everyone scattered, though.

cyllan:

That sounds very similar to a call and response chant/song we did:

Flea. (Flea)
Flea fly. (Flea fly)
Flea fly flow. (etc.)
Vista.
Kumalada kumalada kumalada vista.
Oh, nonono, not the vista.
Eena-meeny essa-meeny, ooh-walla-walla-meeny, exa-meeny, sola-meeny, ooh-walla-wah.
Beep belly oaten-boaten bobo ba-deeten dotten shhhhh.

and its parody:

Flea.
Flea fly.
Flea fly flow.
Mosquito.
Calamine calamine calamine lotion.
Oh, no more calamine lotion.
Itchy itchy scratchy scratchy got one on my backy backy oohy oohy owie owie wish he'd go away.
Quick get the bug spray I think he's going thataway Shhhhhhhhh.

We sang the calamine lotion one at summer camp, as well as its originator:

Dog
Dog cat
Dog cat mouse
Froggie!
Itsy-bitsy-teenie-weenie-little-bitty froggie
Jump, jump, jump little froggie
Eatin' all the flies and all the spiders
Ribbit ribbit ribbit ribbit ribbit ribbit CROAK

But you don't want to get me started on camp songs. I worked there for four YEARS and we sang at every meal, so I can earworm people and not be affected myself. (I generally use opera to derail earworms.) At some point, I'd like to actually transcribe as many of the particular variants as I can to put online (that would be transcribe musically.) Some, like The Cat Came Back, I've heard in quite a few different variants, both upbeat and down. Some—like the Titanic—have extra camp-specific verses. (I wonder if the one I wrote is still there? We... had some issues with boats at that camp, usually with hilarious backstories.)

Heck, I just wrote a mock-heroic ballad about a particular incident that I titled The Might Fridge Warriors of Winton. Camp songs are fun.

Elliott Mason @92: I love how your flower girl seems to be leading the ring-bearer by the hand into the room, and he looks as if he's unsure whether he really wants to be there.

One hen; two ducks; three squawking geese; four Limerick oysters; five corpulent porpoises; six pairs of Don Alverzo's tweezers; seven thousand Macedonians in full battle array; eight brass monkeys from the ancient, sacred crypts of Egypt; nine apathetic, sympathetic, diabetic old men on roller skates with a marked propensity toward procrastination and sloth; ten lyrical, spherical, diabolical denizens of the deep who haul stall around the corner of the quo of the quay of the quivery*, all at the same time.

Done from memory. I lived in several different states and two countries during childhood. Sometimes we said "quivey". All at the same time.

Jeremy Leader @96: Especially funny because he's got about a year and a half on her, agewise (she's 4).

Great footage of her (not so much of anyone else) in the processional-into-the-church here. The back of my husband's head is visible at the extreme left of the front row at around 1:40 (with her in his lap). I'm the bridal attendant in the tux, not that I'm unblurry enough to recognize; my baby sister the was-almost-a-marine is the redheaded second bridesmaid.

Cally @94,

Darn; you posted Koomaladda Veesta before I could.

And "ghost in the graveyard" was, to my recollection, tag with a flashlight. You had to wait until fairly dark twilight, everyone had a flashlight; all but the ghost would hide while the ghost chanted the counting-song. There was a very rigid limit on how far away you could go; usually the "graveyard" area was two or three house's (contiguous) yards; no crossing streets allowed. The ghost would then go looking for everyone else; you were "tagged" if the ghost's flashlight beam caught you. (For the most part, as a consequence, everyone else kept their lights off until they were tagged.) At that point, we'd reset with the new ghost.

Something like that, anyway.

Also, regarding counting games (such as for jumping rope), my grandmother taught us a version of "one, two, buckle my shoe" that went to 26 before it turned into straight counting.

1, 2, buckle my shoe
3, 4 shut the door
5, 6 pick up sticks
7, 8 lay them straight
9, 10 a big fat hen
11, 12 books on shelve (yes, I know, but it's "shelve", not "shelves" or "shelf")
13, 14 maids are courting
15, 16 maids are kissing
17, 18 maids are waiting (as an adult, I wonder if they're waiting to find if they're pregnant!)
19, 20 my plate is empty; please mother give me some more
21, 22 if you love me as I love you no knife can cut our love in two. Go north, go south, go east, go west; you are the one that I love best
23, 24 last night or the night before, twentyfour robbers came to my door. I went to the door to let them in; they knocked me down with a rolling pin. I went upstairs to get my gun; you should have seen those twentyfour robbers run. They ran to the north, they ran to the south, they ran to the east, they ran to the west, they ran right over the railroad tracks, and all fell down and broke their backs.
25, 26 Mother, mother, I am sick. Send for the doctor, quick-quick-quick. Doctor, doctor, shall I die? Yes, my darling, but don't cry. How many carriages shall I have? One, two, three, four....

(and here it turns into just straight counting)

I'm moderately sure the part at 23, 24 was bowdlerdized; it was almost certainly not 24 robbers but 24 n-words orignally.

And that skip-rope-counting-game takes endurance; you've reached at least 126 skips before you start counting funeral carriages. (I say "at least" because sometimes there's a pause to catch the breath between lines, at the skipper's discretion).

The fact that "Glory Hallelujah" is rhymed with "Teacher hit me with a ruler" (in the version of that I learned) proves that it did not originate where I grew up! (We spoke a strongly rhotic dialect.)

We had a counting rhyme that hasn't been mentioned here:

Bubble gum, bubble gum, in a dish
How many pieces do you wish?

My mother told me to pick the very best one—and you are not it!

Eena-meeny essa-meeny, ooh-walla-walla-meeny, exa-meeny, sola-meeny, ooh-walla-wah.

I wonder if the science-language of my household leaked into this? Because I learned it as "Eeny-meany deci-meany, oo-walla-walla-meany, hexa-meany, salla-meany, oo-walla-wah."

Cassy, #100: Meg Davis does a bit of that (mixed with other stuff) at the end of "Monster's Lullaby":

Nyaah, nyaah, your mother eats toads; may a crow find a wart on the tip of your nose;
Ding dong, the cat's in the well, so run and fetch another one.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, hold the horse till I get on;
Hold him fast and hold him sure till I get across the misty moor.
Last night and the night before, a lemon and a pickle came knocking at my door;
I went down to let them in, and they hit me with a rolling pin.
Roses are red, violets are blue, carnations are sweet and so are you,
And so are they who send you this, and when we meet we'll have a kiss.

Eeny-meeny, gypsaleeny,
Oo-cha omaleeny,
Hotchy-totchy Liberace,
I love you baby soom-boom-boom.

Saw your boyfriend last night,
What's his name,
John Wayne,
How do you know,
Just so.
Peek through the window, nosy,
Get a piece of candy, stingy,
Wash those dishes, lazy,
Jump out the window like crazy,
So it's
(repeat first verse as fast as possible.)

That was a 5th grade thing. The 6th grade thing was as follows:

Bobo-ski-watten-totten,
Eh-eh, eh eh
Boom boom boom
Itty-bitty-watten-totten,
Bobo-ski-watten-totten,
Bobo-ski-watten-totten
BOOM.
(Hard hand-smack on the final BOOM.)

100
I got it as '11, 12, dig and delve'; we never got past 14 that I remember.

So Yahoo took away the Messages Displayed Per Page feature, which allowed going through large folders by pages. Now you have to scroll back through the entire folder (downloading the entire list of messages) to get to an earlier point.

I have confirmed that this is a deliberate change.

This and other crock feature changes increasingly lead me to believe that Yahoo wants out of the email business, and is deliberately making the system harder and harder to use so that people will migrate away from Yahoo.

This is stupid. It will cause anger and resentment against the whole company. But stupidity doesn't really argue against it, since corporations do stupid things all the time.

I have managed over the past fortnight to travel from the eastern Mediterranean to the southeastern Caribbean and find banana trees in front of both the places where I was staying. I am wondering if this is some sort of motif.

Xopher @ 107 -

I don't use Yahoo mail that much, but I was able to use my page up and page down buttons on the keyboard to scroll the inbox. I agree that their changes were a pain.

An update on the unsatisfactory carstuff: First Shop asked to see the car when updated, saw the car, was shocked and apologetic, and is refunding me labor costs on the unnecessary repair they did. Well, necessary if the car drove much longer. I am taking steps toward a new car.

I'm very proud of myself for going to the shop not once but twice and sticking to what I wanted both times. It worked! Go me!

No promises, but there's the possibility of a brief Meteor shower early Tuesday morning.

I'm recognizing fragments of the various chants of childhood, but yours veer off in different ways.

Well, let's see:

A sailor went to sea, sea, sea,
to see what he could see, see, see.
But all that he could see, see, see
was the bottom of the deep blue sea, sea, sea.

A sailor went to China
to see what he could China
but all that he could China
was the bottom of the deep blue China

A sailor went to see touch knee
to see what he could see touch knee
but all that he could see touch knee
was the bottom of the deep blue see touch knee.

And I think it had hand gestures, but I don't remember them.

Falling across Swee-Touch-Nee tea was strange, let me tell you.

HLN update: Adorable Kitten, fully recovered from harrowing trip in car bumper, has been adopted by adopters of another white kitten. Yay! Apparently there were several potential adopters.

The only shower I see upcoming is 3-6 inches of rain.

Tracie: Yay!

Elliott Mason @ 92: the world needs more bridesmaids with light sabers.

To the folks who introduced me to an archive of our own, have you read this yet? Will make you smile:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2337882/Harry-saved-gay-hate-attack-Prince-extraordinary-showdown-troops-threatened-gunner.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Elliott Mason @ 83: We continued "Miss Suzie" from the "And that is all I know" point as follows:

I know, I know my mother
I know, I know my pa
I know, I know my sister
With the eighty-meter bra!

Throw me in the ocean,
Throw me in the sea,
Flush me down the toilet
And that's the end of me!

So now Russia declares itself my enemy, and the enemy of every queer person in the world, but especially of LGBT kids in their own country, who are now banned from finding out any information about the LGBT community. This means they're not allowed to talk to each other, either.

Someone on FB pointed out that they're going to have to do a lot of web censorship to accomplish this. Time to start making sure LGBT sites outside Russia are available in Russian.

HLN: Local woman, after getting on the bus in Minneapolis at 10:30 pm local time night before last, finally arrives home.

Local woman denies kissing the ground because it is not a bus, but admits to spoiling her dogs, who were endearingly glad to see her.

"And all my luggage, including the Special Presents of Awesomeness, arrived safely," she said.

Lila @120: YAY!

HLN: Local woman is being assiduously compliant with medical advice. Local house still has an excess of baklava. And the teakettle misses you.

YES. MAKE ALL THE TEA.

(Local woman still needs more sleep.)

Diatryma @110: Go you! Seriously well done.

Tracie @113: Nice to know that Adorable Kitten has a new home.

Xopher Halftongue @199: Ugh!

dcb #123: Commenting on future posts?

Rat4000, for a website that doesn't refer to non-Catholic faiths as heresies, see the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance.

Shifted geminate, Fragano. dcb meant 119.

Deck the halls with gasoline,
Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la,
Light it quick before you're seen,
Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la
Watch the school burn down to ashes,
Fa-la-la, la-la-la, la, la, la!
Aren't you glad you played with matches,
Fa-la-la-la-la, la-la-la-la.

Elliot Mason @49: We also had that "My eyes have seen the glory" with slightly different words, and infinite variations on the chorus from "hit her in the butt with a rotten coconut" to "met her at the bank with a Sherman army tank". Also a pretty messed-up version of "Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to school we go" that ended up with teachers getting shot and other refinements.

Oh, and I just remembered:

This land's not your land,
this land is my land,
'cause I have a shotgun,
and you don't got one,
so you better get off,
or I'll blow your head off,
this land is private property!

As I was walking,
that bombed-out highway,
I saw above me,
that polluted skyway,
I saw below me,
that burned-out valley,
this land was made for you not me!

All these were from an elementary school in western Oregon in the early eighties, in case anybody's keeping track of variations.

Lee @ 48

I was at a book conference where GGGG was on display as a new book. Also attending was Toni Weisskopf. It was some personal disappointment that I didn't get her to autograph a copy or even photograph her holding one.

Deck the halls with dirty laundry
Fa la la la la la la la la
'Tis the season to be naughty
Fa la la la la la la la la
Break a window, start a fire
Fa la la la la la la la la
Stick a pin in teacher's tire
Fa la la la la la la la la

I've been working on my homework,
All the livelong day.
I've been working on my homework
Just to pass the time away.
Can't you hear the teacher shouting,
"Children, do your work!"
Can't you hear the children shouting,
"Teacher, you're a jerk."

Teacher, won't you blow,
Teacher, won't you blow,
Teacher, won't you blow your no-o-o-se?
Teacher, won't you blow,
Teacher, won't you blow,
Teacher, won't you blow your nose?

Someone's in the bathroom with teacher,
Someone's in the bathroom, I know.
Someone's in the bathroom with teacher,
Swimming in the toilet bowl.

And singing, fee, fie fiddly-ei-o
Fee, fie fiddly-ei-o,
Swimming in the toilet bowl.

We three Kings of Orient are
Trying to smoke a Tampa cigar*
It was loaded
And exploded
We three Kings of Orient were....

* * * * *

Comet! It makes your mouth so green
Comet! It tastes like Listerine
Comet! It makes you vomit
So get some Comet
And vomit
Today!

*I went to elementary school in Tampa in the sixties. The glory days of the cigar industry in Ybor City were past, but not forgotten. Authentic cigar boxes for our school supplies weren't uncommon.

Combining the current thread topic with the sidebar on the NZ Parliament bursting into song when the Same-Sex Marriage bill passed.

To the tune of Pokarare Ana.
Pokarare Ana.
I had a squashed banana,
I threw it at the teacher,
She said "Come here."
"Not on your life," I said,

And at that point memory fails me.

J Homes.

We had the twenty-four robbers (in the early 80s, in Australia), but as a skipping rhyme:

Not last night but the night before
Twenty-four robbers came knocking at the door
As I went out, as they went in
And knocked me over with a rolling pin
I asked them what they wanted and this is what they said:
"Spanish lady, turn around
Spanish lady, touch the ground
Spanish lady, do the kicks
Spanish lady, do the splits"

It started off with the rope swinging side to side, and at the word "over" it changed to normal over-the-top skipping. The last four lines refer to particular actions that the skipper has to do (and there were always arguments about whether we'd done the kicks properly, or how many turns we were allowed to do the splits, which meant trapping the rope between your feet).

The other skipping rhyme I remember was a Japanese one that I never managed to learn all the words to (and Google is no help):

ichiban wa karasu ga kaa kaa
niban wa niwatori kokke-kokko
san wa sakana ga oyoideru
shi wa [something] no ojoosan

(First is the crow who goes "kaa-kaa"
Second is the chicken who goes "kokke-kokko"
Third is the fish swimming
Fourth is either a young lady or possibly a princess)

One person runs in at the beginning of each line, then at the end of the rhyme everyone runs out in turn (there are actually words for this part but I never learnt them). The Japanese girls would always make us non-Japanese girls go fourth, and they'd change the rhyme to "ojiisan" (old man / grandfather) thinking we had no idea what they meant.

Then there was the very rude version of Waltzing Matilda...

I learned We Three Kings with "rubber cigar", and I learned it from my mother; it had no currency among other kids that I knew. (I wasn't popular. I might have missed it.)

Our skipping-rope rhyme wasn't "Spanish lady" but "Teddy bear". There was also "Cinderella, dressed in yella, went downstairs to meet a fella. How many kisses did he give her? One, two, three..." However, traditional skipping rope wasn't a big game. It was much cooler to play Chinese jump rope, and that didn't have rhymes, exactly, just chanted directions. I can't remember them all, but it started with "Front, back, side-to-side."

Rikibet, 134: Our Cinderella went "...kiss a fella, Made a mistake, Kissed a snake, How many doctors did it take."

I don't remember anything about our Chinese jumprope rules beyond that we had them. I think we didn't have a chant, we just all knew the order, and the last move was *hard.*

TexAnne @135: for Chinese jumprope (an elastic loop put around the legs of the 'holders' instead of them rotating a single or doubled rope as in ordinary/double dutch jumprope) we had a chant that had to be acted out at each 'level':

Jump in, jump out,
Jump side-to-side
Jump on, jump in,
Jump out.

So the feet went between the strands, outside the strands, a quick alternation of left-inside-right-outside with its converse, feet ATOP the strands (pushing them down to the ground), feet inside, feet outside.

Then we'd advance the difficulty level.

It started (level 0?) around the holders' ankles, with them standing normally, feet somewhere just short of shoulder's-width apart. I no longer remember the full order, but 'narrow' (holders' feet touching at the instep) and 'widesies' (holders standing with feet nearly as far apart as they could and still stand upright), and 'twisty' (ordinary width, but before each jump the jumper must cross the strands to make a diamond in the center, and start from inside that diamond, with the strands pushing in on their legs).

Then it started changing elevation, so you start at ankles and do all the difficulties, then move to calvsies, kneesies, thighsies, and floorsies. I think some of the kids at my school kept wanting to try waistsies, but none of us had a loop stretchy enough to handle 'jump on' at that height without knocking the holders over. :->

J. Random's "Deck the Halls" and Debbie's "We Three Kings" (with Rikibeth's "rubber cigar") and "Comet" ("it's better than Listerine") were all current in my school days. Our "Cinderella" jumprope rhyme was the same as TexAnne's.

This morning I remembered another variant on "Glory, Glory" in which the outcome is: "Hit her on the bean/With a rotten tangerine/And now my teacher is green."

We also (and by "we" I mean the African-American girls, whose song-plays were WAY better than the white kids' and who kindly taught them to us) had Miss Minnehaha:

[kids stand in a circle, one is chosen to stand in center. Kids in circle clap and chant:]

Hey, Miss Minne-ha ha
Fly way over yonder, ha ha
With a handful of biscuit, ha ha
[beginner skips across circle and picks another child]

Hey, Miss [child's name], ha ha [....]

And Punchinella:

Oh look who's here, Punchinella for your fella,
Look who's here, Punchinella for you!
Oh what can you do, Punchinella for your fella,
What can you do, Punchinella for you?
[child in middle does a dance move]
Oh, we can do it too, Punchinella for your fella,
We can do it too, Punchinella for you
[kids in circle imitate dance move]
Oh, who do you choose, Punchinella for your fella,
Who do you choose, Punchinella for you?
[child in center picks next child, repeat]

The previous two were girls' games only. We also played Red Rover, which was for girls and boys.

Addendum: my kids and their contemporaries had the Cup Game, the biggest iteration of which I ever saw filled an entire meeting room and extended down the hall, at the Georgia Thespian Convention. Their version, I think, was the same as that shown through about 1:01 in the video; no music, accelerating gradually, and if you make a mistake you're out.

Our variant of "We Three Kings" had the rubber cigar, but went something like this:

We three kings of Orient are
trying to wear some cheap underwear
it's fantastic
all elastic
Ninety-nine cents a pair.

(and various other verses as people could make them up, ending in:)

We three kings of Orient are
trying to smoke a rubber cigar
It was loaded
It exploded
BANG

(a brief, significant pause, before beginning:)

Silent night, holy night...

Learned on the bus to Vacation Bible School:

There were five, five constipated men
In the Bible, in the Bible,
There were five, five constipated men
In the holy Books of Moses.

The first, first constipated man
He was Cain, he wasn't Abel.
The first, first constipated man
He was Cain, he wasn't Abel.

Moses, he took two tablets
Joshua, he blew the walls down*
Solomon, he sat for forty years
Balaam, he couldn't move his ass

*or Samson, he brought the house down

Coca-Cola came to town
Pepsi-Cola shot him down
Dr. Pepper fixed him up
Now they're drinking 7-UP

I missed the cup game in my childhood, but got introduced to it in song form in the movie Pitch Perfect, at which point my wife gave me the game context. (Here's a version of that same song at full music video length.)

Tracie @ 140

I've got Cain and Moses (but I've got "took the tablets" instead of "took two tablets) and Joshua, and I can't remember the fourth constipated man, but the fifth we sang was

Now the fifth, fifth, constipated man
Was Noah, was Noah
For forty days and forty nights
He passed only water.

Which I think is a beautifully written verse though (or because of the way?) it breaks the pattern of the previous ones.

Tracy @140,

The version of 5 Constipated Men I learned was
Cain, he wasn't Abel
Moses, he took the tablets
Joshua, he blew the walls down
*someone else I don't remember, but I don't think it was Balaam or Solomon*
and it ended with,

Now the fifth, fifth, constipated man was Noah,
Was Noah,
For forty days and forty nights he passed only water!

Cally @ 143; JINX!

If you want it to be accurate, it might be worth noting that neither Solomon nor Samson is in the books of Moses. Cain, Moses, Joshua, Balaam and Noah would work.

Casey B@100: For me, too, it's 'dig and delve', but also 'maids in waiting' - i.e. waiting on a lady, which I think would rule out the pregnancy interpretation. It might not work so well in a country without a nobility, though.

Cassy, is this the place to mention our family Jinx/Snap ritual?

We grew up with this. The second speaker is in parens.

Link little fingers

Needles (Pins)
When a man marries his troubles begin (When a man dies his troubles end)
What goes up the chimney (Smoke)
What comes down the chimney (Santa Claus)
What goes up the chimney down but not down the chimney up (an umbrella)
What goes through the chimney (Casper the Friendly Ghost)
[together] BREAK [breaking linked pinkies]
and who ever touches the color blue with their pinkie finger gets to make a wish.

Obviously at least some of those questions are modern additions!

Years later, I heard a Fibber McGee and Molly episode (which I sadly forgot to mark down the year and day for). After Fibber and Gildersleeve said the same thing at the same time, there was a pause long enough to link pinkies (and since pauses were anathema on radio, it had to be deliberate), and then:

Pins (Needles)
Cotton (Thimbles)
What goes up the chimney? (Smoke)
[together] May your wish and my wish never be broke.

And just recently I heard a Cavalcade of America episode originally broadcast on October 15, 1945, called "Children, This is Your Father" about a returning war vet, in which this appeared:

Hey, what comes out of the chimney (Smoke)
[together] Your wish and my wish will never be broke
[the following was not said together, but sequentially]
(Touch green, my wish will be seen)
Touch green, my wish will be seen
(Touch red, my wish will be said)
Touch red, my wish will be said
(Touch blue, my wish will come true)
Touch blue--what the heck, my wish HAS come true!

I'm pretty sure that last bit was an interruption of the formula, though....

In re the constipated men in the Bible, one I know that hasn't arisen (heh) yet is:

Pharoah, he couldn't let it go

I know someone who learned Pharoah as "His .... heart ... was hardened", sung in a way to imply it was somewhere sub-heart, in fact.

I know I've regularly sung more than 12 different verses, but I can't remember any more just now. I'm sure the internet has some. :->

Elliott: yes, that's the one I couldn't remember "Pharaoh, he couldn't let go". (No "it" in the version I learned.) Thanks!

Debbie 131: I think I got this from my cousins in California:

Comet! It makes your teeth turn green!
Comet! It tastes like gasoline!
Comet! It makes you vomit, [rest same as yours]

...but there was a second verse:

Comet! It makes your teeth turn yellow!
Comet! It tastes like moldy Jello!
Comet! It makes etc.

Xopher @150: I heard the Comet/gasoline first verse the same as yours, in the late 1960s in central NJ. I don't recall ever hearing a second verse.

We also had some version of "Miss Mary Mack", but I can't recall much of it.

And we had a number of verses of "Miss Lucy had a steamboat", similar to Cally Soukup's @78:

Miss Lucy had a steamboat, the steamboat had a bell
Miss Lucy went to heaven, the steamboat went to
Hello, operator, please give me number nine
And if you disconnect me, I'll kick you in your Behind the 'frigerator, there was a piece of glass
Miss Lucy slipped and stepped on it, and it went up her
Ask me no more questions, I'll tell you no more lies
The boys are in the locker room, pulling down their
Flies are in the country, the bees are in the park
The boys and girls are kissing in the D A R K dark!

I also remember something about somebody (Miss Lucy?) "... in the cow pasture, eating chocolate pies", but I can't figure out where it fit in.

My older son, currently in middle school here in Los Angeles, taught me another double-entendre verse like "Miss Lucy". I'll have to get him to refresh my memory so I can post it here. He'd never heard "Miss Lucy".

Tracie, #140: I remember that one!

This is all reminding me of the "Concert Choir Cheer" that someone invented while I was at Vandy. It went like this:

Ma-hee, ma-hi,
Ma-hee, ma-hi, ma-ho
A roomstick, a broomstick,
A nick-nack-nanny-crack
Sol-fat merang-gee
Hobble-gobble ricka-racka
Hobble-gobble firecracker
Hobble-gobble RAzoo
Fred* blow your KAzoo
Sis boom bah
Vanderbilt Concert Choir
Rah rah rah!

The people who came up with it seemed to think it fit some pattern that everyone would know. To me it was just gibberish... but OTOH, I still remember it 35 years later, so I guess it was effective gibberish!

* Fred Ford, the choir director.

All I have to offer them are some cashews.

Lincoln, Lincoln,
I've been thinkin'
What's that stuff that
You've been drinkin'?
Looks like water,
Tastes like wine--
Oh my gosh it's
Turpentine!

Yes, in our local dialect, the "o" in Lincoln is more of a schwa. "Link'n".

I learned this in New England in 1967, and it seems to have carried forward:

There's a place somewhere
where the ladies smoke cigars
and every puff they take
is enough to kill a snake.
When the snake dies
they put diamonds in its eyes,
when the diamonds fade,
it is 1968.

If anyone knows anything about origins I'd be delighted to be illuminated!

dancingcrow @155

I learned it (sometime in the early 1970s) as:

There's a place called Mars
Where the ladies smoke cigars
And the smoke they make
Is enough to kill a snake
When the snake is dead
They put flowers on its head
When the flowers die
They count one-two-three-four-five.

HLN: A local parent has found great solace in reading profane chants posted on the Internet ever since receiving his daughter's preschool acceptance letter half an hour ago. Apparently the Chicago Public Schools think it is perfectly reasonable to give a small, mandatory application window, send out acceptance letters "In early June" that arrive June 12th, and bludgeon teaching staff that they MUST have ALL their parents enrolled BY JUNE 21st at the UTTER LATEST or else.

Because having a less-than-a-week timeframe to gather documents and apply in person is TOTALLY something every family can do at no notice, especially in a month often filled with family weddings and trips out of town, right?

Like the one we're making, where we fly out of the country this Friday morning and return home the afternoon of the day AFTER the 'last day' of registration?

Luckily, though overworked and intimidated, my kid's future preschool teachers are also sweet and friendly, and we have (hopefully) worked out an alternative time to come in under special dispensation. Now I just need to acquire a copy of her vacc record on no notice before Friday morning, as there will be no time at all to do anything about it after we come back into town.

The more I read into the CPS central system's policies and general methods of operation, the more I sympathize with the parents who run FOR THE HILLS away from it at their very first chance to do so, if they have the means. Alas, we have not the means, so I get to dig in and Get Active and try to help make it functional from the inside out. See grindstone, apply shoulder, etc.

Elliot Mason #157: Why, that makes as much sense as Medicaid deciding that the primary care physician to an almost-three-year-old should be a rural internist specializing in colonoscopies, fifty miles from said three-year-old's residence.

Indeed.

I've finally found a network of blogs from other CPS parents and teachers, and am utterly appalled at the difference between Facts On The Ground as experienced by people actually trying to use the system, and what gets talked about on public radio or mainstream news blogs.

The mainstream news isn't just burying the lede on current CPS flusterclucks, they're completely missing the entire point. While tossing softball sweetheart questions at the people they have up for interview.

157/159
I've heard stories from people dealing with LAUSD's 'magnet school' program, where Parents Who Know Someone find out about application periods before everyone else (and everyone else is trying to get even basic information without a lot of success). Stuff that's intended for gifted/talented/minority students somehow ends up with ordinary students whose parents have Connections.

My co-author on GREASY GRIMY GOPHER GUTS, Josepha Sherman, has passed away, but at some point I would like to do a follow-on volume and will start collecting again.

Followup to my @184: Adding to the fun, I can't find our previous printout of her vaccination record, so I've ordered a replacement from her pediatrician.

It will take 7-10 business days to get it.

I have to have it in my hand on June 24th ... meaning John has to go into the office in the afternoon of the day we fly back into the country and pick it up from the departmental fax machine. And we're lucky we got that 'special extension' from the school, or we wouldn't have it at all in time for their 'mandatory' registration days!

Argh. There hasn't been an @184 comment yet, of course, but you're all bright people, you'll figure it out. Oh how I'd love to go have a drink in a hot bathtub right about now ....

Elliott, 157sqq: ARGH, that sounds awful.

HLN: Woman discovers that Icelandic fleece spins itself. Cat hair, however, does not.

From my FB feed this morning by the ever-dependable George Takei -

Why did the cowboy get a dachshund?

Because he wanted to get a long little doggie.

TexAnne #164: Does local woman know anyone with a Newfie? I've heard their fur is great for spinning.

There's a place in France
Where the ladies wear no pants...

I can't remember the rest of it, which is just as well.

More biblical exegesis -- New Testament constipated men -- courtesy of the Mudcat Cafe:
Peter (was like a rock; also, heaven and earth could not move him; also, he denied it three times)
Judas Iscariot (he burst asunder, Acts I:18)
Titus (his name speaks for itself)
Jesus (he cleared the temple; he rose after three days)
And of course, GOD (He sits till Judgement Day)

Apparently not constipated:
John the Baptist (he went before)
Martha (she rose up hastily)

This song seems to have become a staple on the renaissance faire circuit.

Dave, 166: Local woman has heard that too, but is uninterested in a sweater that, when wet, smells like a wet dog.

More seriously, there are some breeds that are supposed to make yarn that doesn't smell like wet dog, but I don't remember what they are and there are SO MANY sheep to try...and then there are the camelids...and then the plants. And the silkworms. I won't be bored any time soon!

167
I seem to have gotten the next two lines of that one as
And the men don't care
As they wash their underwear

A spinner I knew who spun dog fur professionally and in great quantities told me that you needed to spin and knit (or weave) the furry project before you washed it. There would be a doggy odor while you worked on it, but it would wash out later.

On the other hand, this pet fur spinner washes it before and after spinning. I guess it's just personal preference.

Either way, a dog fur sweater need not smell like a wet dog. There are instructions on line for washing fur.

All of my dogs have had spinable coats (Pomeranian, Siberian Husky, and Corgi-Chow) but I've never managed to spin any.

Ahem! Ahem! My mother's gone off to church
She told me not to play with you because you've been in the dirt
It isn't because you're dirty
It isn't because you're clean
It's because you have the whooping cough and eat margar-ine!

Ten ways the government will respond to the latest whistleblower with BS and misdirection.

I especially liked the bit where the president said he welcomed a public debate on this kind of program, given that he's had the authority to declassify enough of the program to have that discussion since he took office in 2008. Anyone want to bet he will tell Eric Holder not to prosecute Snowden, since he's just allowing us to have a public debate on these programs?

Digger omnibus Kickstarter.

They made their initial goal in 12 hours. At this writing they're less than $2,000 away from the level at which Ursula will write and illustrate a new short story in the Digger universe, which will be included in the omnibus.

@#57: Let me tell you son, it ain't no fun, staring straight down a .44 .

@#154: I heard "Is it water/ is it wine/ Oh my god it's Turpentine!"

Tracie@ 167:

Followed by:
There's a hole in the wall
Where the men see it all.

In the fiber thread, a local friend here wants to collect and spin donkey hair into yarn so that he can knit it into hats.

He's sure that there's a market for authentic ass-hats on the Internet.

It comes back, Eric:

And the boys don't care
'Cause they like to see it bare.

No wonder I (temporarily) wiped it from memory.

From the same school bus, circa 1960:

I want a man, I want a man,
I want a mansion in the sky.
I feel like hell, I feel like hell
I feel like helping some poor guy,
And when the dam, dam, dam, dam, damage is done,
I'm gonna have myself a barrel of fine,
I want a mansion in the sky.

I wanna neck, I wanna neck,
I wanna necklace made of pearls,
I wanna pet, I wanna pet,
I wanna petticoat that swirls,
And when the dam, dam, dam, dam, damage is done
I'll have my child, child, child, child, childish fun,
I want a mansion in the sky.

167:
they just use grass
to cover up their ass

Jeremy @151, and others previously

The way I learned the song was

Lulu had a steamboat, the steamboat had a bell
Lulu went to heaven, the steamboat went to
etc.

For some reason, as a child, I connected this verse to the Little Lulu comics, especially the very unauthorized ones that went around the schoolyard.

There is undoubtedly an online market for literal ass-hats on the internet. I'd buy one just for the abominable pun alone.

My "Miss Lucy" is similar to those posted before, but among my circle of friends, the boys...

are in the bathroom / eating all the
flies are in the kitchen / bees are in the park

& etc. I didn't hear the the zipper innuendo until much later in life. But I did get introduced to a shorter variant which ends

The boys are in the bathroom, making chocolate pies!
(And lemonade...)

The last two words sung much like the "And many more..." that sometimes gets appended to "Happy Birthday".

We used to do the McDonald's hand jive, but I suspect our choreography was much simpler than some of what's being reported here. It consisted of only four moves: the swim-style slapping hands once with right hands above left hands, then again with left hands above right, then a double hi-five, then you just clap. Repeat until out of jingle.

Cal Dunn@133
The "Spanish Dancer" is almost identical to the jump rope rhyme we did in western Oregon in the late 50s. Somehow that's amazing to me.

Here's another rhyme I remember:
Tra la la boom ti ay
My teacher passed away
We threw her in the bay
Tra la la boom ti ay

And when they fished her out
Mistook her for a trout
They could have won a prize
For her enormous size.

And
There's a place in France
Where the women do a dance
And the dance they do
Was written by a Jew
Now the Jew couldn't dance
So they kicked in the pants
And the pants he wore
Cost a dollar eighty-four
Plus Tax

Yikes, so sorry, no intention to offend

Gnomes, Rainflame. The gnomes keep us safe from spammish evoll. Trolls come here to make trouble and disturb the civil conversation.

Sometimes a troll appears as a piñata, but gnomes are really quite difficult to mistake for trolls.

You're so right Xopher. My abject apologies to the hardworking gnomes.

#127 ::: J. Random Scribbler

The second line in the version I know is "Light a match and see it gleam." Otherwise the same. (New York, 1960s.)

Re: Sidelights and "Don't savvy me"... it surprises you that so many of us say "And this surprises you?"

Most of childhood songs I know have already been listed, more or less exactly as I've heard them.

There were three jolly fishermen,
There were three jolly fishermen.
Fisher, fisher, men-men-men,
Fisher, fisher, men-men-men,
There were three jolly fishermen.

That's the form. Following verses:

The first one's name was Abraham...
The second one's name was Isaac...
The third one's name was Jacob...
They all went down to Amster-SSSH!
I'm gonna say it anyway...
They all went down to AmsterDAM...

There may have been more verses, but that's all I can remember. The whole point of it was to be a giggly way to almost-swear. "Amster-Amster-DAM-DAM-DAM!"

We three kings of Bankstown Square
Selling women's underwear
So fantastic, no elastic
Fifty cents a pair

I have vague memories of a men's choir singing this with lovely vocal harmonies, very solemnly and earnestly, but blowed if I can remember where.

Also, in our version of Jingle Bells, Robin ran away, and Wonder Woman lost her bosom flying TAA (Trans Australian Airlines, which doesn't exist any more)

Rainflame #182, that is amazing (and awesome). Particularly because ours was a very small school and I don't remember any students of US descent - must have been cross-pollination!

My six-year-old has voiced some interesting theology of his own, as when he informed me that Redbird (of the Angry Birds) was going to do something which "will be good for his soul -- if he had one. His soul is not in the right place, if you know what I mean." When I admitted I didn't know, he pointed to his belly button and said, "Mine is right in front of the backbone, but Redbird's is closer to his head feathers than his tail feathers."

Compare and contrast with "Binky Brown Meets the Holy Virgin Mary", in which Binky pictures the soul as a two-lobed object, something like a thyroid (although he speaks of it as "lung-shaped"), in the center of the chest.

Glenn Hauman @187:
Re: Sidelights and "Don't savvy me"... it surprises you that so many of us say "And this surprises you?"

You'll be delighted to know that I am cynically unsurprised that someone made that particular comment.

Re: "Don't savvy me" -- that's exactly why I found it tough to get past the opening paragraphs of "The Logic of the Surveillance State." I'm glad I kept reading, but seriously, two paragraphs of savvying?

Lee 189: I heard a couple more verses at Boy Scout camp:

You should not say that naughty word...
I thought I'd say it anyway...

abi 192: I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say I'm not surprised that you expected that.

Unrelated to anything else discussed here: Note to small presses—Hire a real copyeditor. Seriously. It will be worth the money. Do NOT rely on global search-and-replace and spell check to make your book correct and coherent. Examples:

1. Even if you have the grotesquely wrong idea that every slash ("/") should be followed by a space in text (an idea you should discard), you really cannot possibly have wanted the slashes to be spaced in URLs.
2. Some ellipses ("...") should have spaces after them, while others should not. When the ellipsis is used to indicate trailing off at the end of a sentence, it should be followed by a space; when it indicates an omission or vocal hesitation in the middle of a sentence, it should not. (There are those who believe in spaces before AND after an omission-indicating ellipsis, but spacing only after is just wrong in that case.)
3. 'Martial' is a perfectly good word. It is not, however, a verb. The verb is 'marshal'. Yes, they're derived from the same root, but they're spelled differently in English.
4. Copyeditors are also versed in the subtleties of punctuation. The following two sentences do not mean the same thing:
   • I waited for the weekend when I could release my geekiness.
   • I waited for the weekend, when I could release my geekiness.

This writer was referring to his favorite SFF show coming on on the weekend (every weekend), not to eagerly awaiting EasterCon. The second sentence was required; you used the first.

5. Someday, to my regret, 'miniscule' will be a correct spelling (as all non-calligraphers forget the word 'majuscule'). That day is not yet, however, despite what Microsoft and FireFox (which as I write this has underlined the correct 'majuscule' but not the incorrect 'miniscule') believe. A real copyeditor would have caught that.


6. Different book, now: 'brusk' is not a word. It's spelled 'brusque'. (Word gets that one right; FireFox accepts both.)

"I expect the unexpected."
- Batman

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
- Michael Palin

"Everybody expects the Italian Inquisition!"
- me while watching 'The name of the Rose'

Lee@173: I came in here to post that Kickstarter. Sniped! :)

My two versions of "Say, Little Playmate":
Good:
Say, say, O Playmate
Come on and play with me!
Play with my dollies three
Climb up my apple tree
Slide down my rainbow
Into my cellar door
And we'll be playmates
Forevermore

Evil:
Say, say, O Enemy
Come on and fight with me!
Play with my monsters three
Climb up my poison tree
Slide down my razor blade
Into my dungeon door
And we'll be enemies
Forevermore

Also, my version of "Greasy Grimy Gopher Guts" ended

..and I forgot my spoon
So I'll just use my straw
(disgusting slurping noises until everyone collapses into a fit of giggles)

I also learned some French camp songs at summer camp in France, but unfortunately don't remember them today.

Serge @ 197 -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqgZnvfJ9Jg

The Inquisition What a Show

I've got a pair of combination underwear
They don't rip, they don't tear
Had them on for six weeks without exaggeration
Can't get them off because I forget the combination!

Jim @ #76
The two communicated using Gmail, but not by sending each other letters. They had a dummy account, they both knew the username and password, they could thus log in from other locations and read the draft messages that the other had written (nothing was ever sent).
This was all fine, but who was the person with whom the General was communicating? The IPs that the unknown person was logging in from were all public places: e.g. hotels.

I’m missing how they got the General’s side of the correspondence in the first place, or did they have to search his browser history?

Redbird (of the Angry Birds) was going to do something which "will be good for his soul -- if he had one. His soul is not in the right place, if you know what I mean." When I admitted I didn't know, he pointed to his belly button and said, "Mine is right in front of the backbone, but Redbird's is closer to his head feathers than his tail feathers."

This is fascinating. What can Redbird do to relocalize his soul, and why is it bad that it's presently closer to his head?

Steve C @ 200... Very silly.

Jarrett Walker of Human Transit may have coined a new aphorism that relates to 'Don't savvy me':

Cynicism is consent.

One of my local weeklies is getting silly with their movie listings:

A young journalist confronts his secret extraterrestrial heritage when Earth is invaded by members of his race. (Zna Bs Fgrry)

John M. Burt #191: I note that your kid has placed his soul in the traditional location of the "center" -- both the body's center of mass, and the location which a lot of meditative techniques orient around. And the red bird could reasonably be considered to be "forward weighted", given how it flies. (BTW, I actually fired up the game on my iPhone to check its behavior, and they seem to have added some sort of slot machine since I checked in last. Odd....)

Dave Harmon @206: today at lunch, a co-worker was telling me about a Marin newspaper which used to run silly summaries like that. He described one that was something like "A young woman travels to a strange country, kills the first person she meets, then teams up with 3 strangers to kill again" (Gur Jvmneq bs Bm).

Serge #s 197/198: My father, qepd, insisted that there was an Irish inquisition. I've long wondered what that would consist of: A group of elderly men in soutanes drinking Bushmills and engaging in craic perhaps?

"Big Mac, Filet-O-Fish,
Quarter pounder, french fries.
Icy coke, thick shake,
Sundaes, and apple pies."

Isn't that a verse from Billy Joel's "We Didn't Start the Fryer"?

.

"Climb up my apple tree
Shout down my rain barrel
Slide down my cellar door
And we'll be jolly friends
Forevermore!"

That's a regular song, copyrighted and everything. I used to have it on a little five-inch 78. H. Allen Smith interviewed the songwriter in one of his first couple books — Low Man on the Totem Pole, most likely, but maybe Life in a Putty Knife Factory. Like the Hokey Pokey, there's a possibility the writer simply appropriated an existing work (a kid verse in this case).

.

"kumalada kumalada vista.
Oh, nonono, not the vista."

This isn't too far from what I sung along with my sisters, and since I was picking it up by ear, it might be even closer to what they were singing (though they tended to scornfully correct me when they had the chance). I sang "Fleesta," for instance.

.

Fade, I was going to write about the "Silent Night" variant of We Three Kings. You've covered it pretty well, except to the extent that I heard it as a countdown. Three Kings, Two Kings, One King…

.

Heh. "Comet." I made up a metric butt load of verses to that in junior high. Same for a parody version of the McDonald's song that went to the tune of "Down By the River Side."

.

Dancing Crow, the tune to that — most canonically "There's a place in France" — is the "Hootchy Kootchy Dance" that Little Egypt canced to at the Chicago World's Columbian Exposition of 1893. Sol Bloom claimed to have written it for the act. Despite other versions I've heard, I retain affection for the one my sister Givhan used to sing when we were in the single digits:

"There's a place in France
Where the women do the dance.
And the dance they do
Costs a dollar fifty-two."

Rainflame, you're the first one I've ever seen with a variant that similar.

Jeremy, #208: I take issue with that description. The first death was accidental, and I don't believe you can actually say that they "met".

Jeremy, #208: Yes I (and presumably the listings editor) was thinking of that one, though I thought it was from the Village Voice.

Serge @ 198:

*peals of laughter*

(I love that book. And the movie. Usually, movies made from books I like suck; that one didn't. :) )

Lee @211: I'm transcribing my recollection of my co-worker's recollection of a newspaper item he read a couple decades ago, so... maybe "encountered"? And I didn't say the killing was intentional.

Dave Harmon @212: Maybe it was syndicated? A quick Google yields this list of varying levels of quality, humor, and political correctness, which has the WoO summary in the first comment.

Mostly not my doing, this: "Marooned child travels from frying pan to fire when it is rescued from a barren world only to face death at the hands of a starship full of malevolent mineworkers".

"Colonel Gadaffi inadvertently creates rock'n'roll in a paean to the Thatcher government's subsidies for the car industry."

"Scientists rebut existence of god after hands-on experiments in major metropolitan centre."

A few years ago there was an art show called These Are Their Stories. Each picture was inspired by a DirecTV program guide summary of a Law & Order episode.

Note -- just looked through the works in the art show again and remembered that while most are funny, a couple mention rape, so you may want to not click on the link.

Sarah @ 202: I’m missing how they got the General’s side of the correspondence in the first place, or did they have to search his browser history?

Paula Broadwell sent threatening emails to Jill Kelley, using a pseudonym. Kelley complained to an FBI agent about it. When he investigated, he found that whoever was sending the emails seemed to know a lot about the travel plans of generals, and dug into the forensics*, and that took him to Paula Broadwell.

Info on Wikipedia
Article on New Scientist

*It's just metadata.

From the BBC: A would-be swimmer from Cuba to the US learns: It's not just about the sharks.

Rather specific to the seventies, I suppose, was this ditty sung on our school bus to the tune of Frere Jacques:

Marijuana, marijuana
L S D, L S D
The C I A makes it
Richard Nixon takes it
Why can't we?
Why can't we?

#222 ::: John A Arkansawyer

The way I heard it:

Marijuana, marijuana
L S D, L S D
Rockefeller makes it
Mayor Lindsay takes it
Why can't we
Why can't we

Nelson Rockefeller was the Governor of New York, and Lindsay was mayor of New York City. Both left those offices in 1973.

We used most of the "skipping" rhymes for hopscotch rather than jump rope when I was a kid. I suspect it was too hot in Phoenix much of the year for jump rope. Hopscotch was much more of a "burst of activity until you messed up" whereas jumping rope was sustained activity and therefore a lot less fun in the heat.

We didn't play typical "tag" much either. We played ditch 'em, which was like tag, only it involved hiding and stealth -- and lots more shade and less running than straight up tag. The way it worked was everybody hid (like hide and seek) and then the person who was "it" went hunting. The person who was "it" wore an identifying baseball cap or a bandanna or sweat band (this being the 80's)or something. If they found somebody and successfully tagged them, that person had to wear the hat, became "it" and took up the search while "it" found a shady place to hide for awhile.

Could 215 through 217 be kind enough to indicate the work described, even in rot13? The first posters did and the list linked to does.

Yet another version, going around my elementary school in the early 70s:

Marijuana, marijuana
L S D, L S D
Scientists make it
Teachers take it
Why can't we
Why can't we

#225 ::: Lenora Rose

Well, #215 is "Nyvra," I believe. I haven't puzzled out the others, yet.

A British tabloid apologized to aliens for linking them with Scientology when the Scientologists threatened to sue....

My father confided to me a couple of his favorite childhood songs, including
I'm a devil, a dirty, dirty devil
I leave a trail of blood wherever i go.
I delight in picking up a fight
And bashing little babies in the head
'Til they're dead!
I'm a smudge on my family's escutcheon
I put poison in my mother's shredded wheat
And I eat [Snort! Snort!] raw meat!

He also recounted
Nobody likes me, everybody hates me
Guess I'll eat some worms
Big fat juicy ones
Little tiny scrawny ones
See how they wiggle and squirm
Bite their heads off, suck the juice out
Throw the skins away
Nobody knows how a man can live
On worms three times a day

The latter song has been (in various versions) illustrated by Gilbert Shelton and used to good advantage by Peni R. Griffin in her YA novel Ghost Sitter.

David Wald @142, thanks for the tip re Pitch Perfect. We now have it on reserve at the local library. Also: I don't suppose it means anything to you, but your name catches my eye because I have a brother named David Wald(en Burt).

Cally Soukup @154, when I heard it, Lincoln had been drinkin' something that was
Kind of white and
Kind of green
Lincoln, dear, that's KEROSENE!

Cassy B @156, what I heard was
There's a place on Mars
Where the women smoke cigars
And the smoke is so thick
That the men are always sick

Albatross @172, yeah, I have already seen most of those used to draw attention away from what Snowden has told us.

Magenta Griffith @179, when you refer to "very unauthorized" comics, do you mean just comics being very much unauthorized at school, or do you mean you saw Tijuana Bibles as a child?

Benajmin Wolfe @180, should an asshat be an asslike hat, or a hat for one's ass? A hat with donkey ears would run a distant third in my preferences.

Sarah @203, I intend to probe the issue of Redbird's soul, cautiously, with an effort to minimize the observer effect.

Elliott Mason @205, by George he's right, cynicism is consent.

Dave Harmon @206: It sounds like a movie summary my wife delivered, "A recovering criminal becomes a crime counselor" (Gur Funqbj). Myself, I would have called it, "Traumatized veteran finds inner peace by studying Eastern mysticism, then returns to his home town".

KipW @210, In the song "Monster in My Pants" [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm6yEe439lw], that much-reworked verse was rendered as
No, they don't wear pants
On the other side of France
But they do wear a sheet
To protect them from the heat
which has the unusual plus of being factually true.

#225 ::: Lenora Rose

I've come to the conclusion that #216 is indecipherable because it depends on a false understanding of an aspect of the movie involved, "Onpx gb gur Shgher."

Thatcher had nothing to do with it, as I understand it.

#229 ::: Bob Webber

Nope, looks like I'm wrong and PM Thatcher might indeed have had something to do with it.

"Research first, then give opinion," a lesson I seem to frequently forget.

Cygnet @ #224, my mother would differ with you. She's told me stories about jumping rope when she was growing up on Granada Road and later on Lewis Avenue there. Her big childhood sports thing was roller skates, though.

"Two emotionally disturbed brothers team up with another traumatized family to go on a killing spree in Mexico." (Sebz Qhfx Gvy Qnja)

"Neglected by his father, a young boy listens to a hallucinatory soldier, resulting in the deaths of an elderly couple and the fiery explosion of a jetliner." (Pybnx naq Qnttre)

"In this odd reimagining of Christian legend, a saintly figure with mysterious healing powers dies, rises from the dead, and, after imparting final wisdom to his disciples, ascends to heaven." (R.G.)

Lenora Rose, Bob Webber has the first two right. The other is Tubfgohfgref but probably needs a bit of work.

Fairly Local Weather News: once again, we've been hit by a derecho, and once again, we have big trees down all about us, including two white pines from the neighbors that crushed the fence between us. Our handyman happened to be at the house during the storm, and between him and our daughter we now know how water gets in the basement: through the bomb shelter vent. I'm not sure how we'll deal with that but at least since it's coming in through the pipe instead of around it, we can try intercepting it with a big bucket.

#216 assumes, not unreasonably, that gur QrYberna vf gur ureb bs gur svyzf. This then recasts the gevybtl nf n gentrql. So sad.

John M. Burt #229: There's also the classic How to Eat Fried Worms.

Xopher @233, I haven't seen the first two films you ROTted. The third I recognized without needing to cipher it, and have heard that interpretation before.

Another film with a hard-to-disguise title, so I'll only ROT part of it: "While a group are on a business trip, one member goes insane and kills the others one by one, until the allegedly sane member kills him, and then has a bizarre vision before returning home." (n fcnpr bqlffrl)

AKICIML: Okay, so I had a quick look at Whatever today and discovered that yesterday there was a load of pledge matching/donating going on to the Carl Brandon Society and the Octavia E Butler Memorial Scholarship fund. For "absolutely no reason whatsoever" - yeah, right. While looking for what the fuss was about (found it eventually, including screen shots* of the original racist misogynistic drivel from a boringly predictable source) I came across this:
Australian Army on institutional sexism

He seems really sincerely angry about this. Bad that it's been happening. Good that the guy at the top is making it really clear what he thinks about such behaviour.

*Which meant I didn't have to go to the actual website, thankfully.

dcb, #239: Did you catch the sideswipe against hazing in general that he put in there?

dcb: Wow. Just wow.

Lee @240: Yes, I did. "Nobody has ever explained to me how the exploitation or degradation of others enhances capability or honours the traditions of the Australian Army"

Lila @241: Yeah, that was my reaction as well. That guy is seriously pissed off - and not afraid of speaking plainly: "if that does not suit you, then get out."

(Oh and the "AKICIML" was 'cos originally I was going to ask for pointers to what had been going on that I'd missed.)

For an extra layer of surrealism, watch Jim's "Movies for the blind" diffraction, and turn on "automatic captions".

Regular correspondents will recall that Hugh Daniel passed away on 3 June.

From Hugh's sister, Lesli Daniel, I have learned that there will soon be memorial events for Hugh in Pacifica, California, in the Netherlands, in Ann Arbor, and in outer space.

More on the latest wiretapping scandal.

One fascinating sideline in all this is the number of establishment journalists and pundits who are pre-emptively dismissive and hostile to Snowden, rather like they were/are to Bradley Manning and Julian Assange. This Reason article and this Daiily Beast article are both quote and link farms for establishment media figures who have jumped in to smear Snowden for daring to let us know what was being done with our information, allegedly in our name. This is very useful for me, as a consumer of media. For example, if guys like David Brooks and Richard Cohen are going to reflexively smear people in personal terms for whistleblowing, that's helpful to know the next time I see them sneering about some protest movement or politician or something. Their team is the establishment, and they will defend their team and attack its enemies, wrong or right. Sort of like John Boehner and Diane Feinstein, who are on the same page about Snowden and his leaks.

AKICIML:

Does anyone have experience with repairing leaking 1930s-era wall mount kitchen faucets? The plumber quoted a price of over $500, which is not chicken feed, but the faucet unquestionably needs to be fixed.

My plumbing skill level is about at "replace shower head, replace faucet aerator, tweak misbehaving toilet ballcocks and flapper valves," but I can follow diagrams. OTOH, I don't have a lot of grip/wrist strength for wrenches.

Thoughts?

Rikibeth: are they leaking out of the spigot (that is, not turning all the way off)? Or leaking out around the handle pivots? Or is the metal so eaten away that they're leaking through the side of the body? Or something else?

The first two are a matter of disassembling the right parts and performing periodic maintenance (replacing a washer, and possibly a valve seat, in the first case, and replacing the packing around the valve shaft in the second). The third probably means you have to replace the whole thing; it would depend on how easy it is to get access to where the fixture attaches to the pipes, how nice you want it to look after you're done, and how much you want to spend on the replacement fixture.

To make clear the limits of my expertise, I've done the first a couple times, I've done the third a few times but never on wall-mount faucets, and the second I only know how to do in theory (but I don't think it's much more complicated than the first).

$500 may or may not be unreasonable for the third case. At the other extreme, I've had a plumber replace washers for free, while he was in the house after finishing a bigger job (replacing a water heater).

246
Having helped replace one of those, the biggest potential problem might be the short pipes that are likely to be behind it in the wall. If those break, they're not expensive to replace, but it's something of a pain.
The most expensive part is likely to be the faucet unit itself - they're frequently called laundry faucets, but they're also found as kitchen faucets. If you have to get a new one, make sure you know the center-to-center distance of the pipes it's going to connect with!

P J Evans: Center-to-center distance, check. I'm small and capable of contorting into under-sink and similar spaces -- ask me sometime about replacing the dashboard light on the Volvo wagon I used to have.

Could you elaborate a little more on the faucet replacement process and what it involves? The innards of faucets are a mystery to me.

Rikibeth:
Time-Life Books: The Complete Fix-It Yourself Manual

This gives you everything you need to know in enough detail to decide if you want to tackle it yourself or yell for help.

249
Shut off the water to the faucet first, whatever you're going to do with the faucet.

You have to take the handles off to get the old faucet off - take out the screws in the handles to do this. Then you may be able to get the plates (escutcheons) off from against the wall, or at least slide them out - they hide the holes around the pipe.
There are nuts that you have to loosen to get the faucet off (they're probably either 1/2 or 3/4-inch). After those are off, you should be able to take off the faucet.
The pipes sticking out are called nipples, and they're threaded on both ends. (Hope you can use the existing nipples, because it's a pain to replace stuff that's inside the wall and not really accessible.) Put plumber's tape (teflon tape) around the threads on the nipple, and assemble according to the instructions that should come with the new faucet.

250
I also like 'Dare to Repair' by Sussman and Glakas-Tenet. It's aimed at women, but is very clear. (They both got into home repairs because their husbands were away a lot.)

There are a ton of How-To-Replace/Repair-Faucet videos over at YouTube. You can look for something that looks like your rig.

Hey Ari, I'm swiping your sidebar post by Kameron Hurley for my Facebook wall.

Another one for the misleading movie summaries:

"A small terrorist cell accompanied by two mercenaries goes on a killing spree in a government installation, eventually succeeding in blowing it up."

(Fgne Jnef)

The faucet is leaking out of the spigot. There are no visible shutoff valves beneath the sink, or I'd have shut the fool thing down already. I suspect this means shutting down the whole house for the duration of the repair. :( Also, when you turn the taps, turning the cold tap produces a slight increase in water volume, & turning the hot tap does exactly nothing, & doesn't even feel like it's doing anything. I wish I knew a better way to describe it, but the feel of the cold tap says "water should come out" and it's just less than I'd expect, and the feel of the hot tap says "nope."

None of the faucets in the YouTube clips look much like what's in the kitchen. I even looked for laundry sinks. Either I get commercial sinks, or I get modern things that use cartridges.

I don't have the Time-Life book. I've got a couple of other ones. I was busy looking at the bits on the insides of toilet tanks (the toilet in question actually had nothing wrong with it except an extended period of disuse, & behaved itself perfectly after being flushed a few times) and then the plumber showed up before I really investigated the sink.

My dad, who is generally good with plumbing (I have seen him install new toilets, disposals, and dishwashers, as well as fixing ordinary sink-mounted faucets) says it's not one he'd want to do himself. This suggests maybe I shouldn't.

HLN: Local woman observes that the nearby New York-style deli advertises egg creams made with Fox's U-Bet Chocolate Syrup, and decides to try one. Results: impressive. Would recommend.

Rikibeth, there are variations, but that sounds like a potential replacement of the faucet. The mechanism is a rubber (plastic) washer pushing down on a metal seat, held by a simple screw-thread system worked by turning the handle.

There's a diagram here, taken from a US Navy manual.

If it's leaking but otherwise working, it is fairly simple. The brass screw which holds the seat washer can be awkward. The valve seat can be re-cut if it is worn: needs the right tool. But the symptom you describe sounds more like the spindle threads, which move the stem up and down, and that means replacement.

I can't really judge what the plumber said about the cost, but it doesn't sound crazy for tap replacement on an old-style system without isolator valves. It's not so much the parts as the time it takes.

Having nothing happen when you turn the tap on is bad news, as with an old tap it most likely means the internal thread is stripped and that's a "replace the whole unit" job.

(That assumes the hot water is working elsewhere in the house and it's not something like a header tank running dry. If it;s just the one tap it's time to replace the tap.)

I had to do this a couple of years ago (On Christmas Eve!) when the mixer tap on the kitchen sink failed. With no isolator valves for the tap, it's a tedious process that involves turning off both supplies - in this case the cold feed to the house and draining the cold water header tank that feeds the hot water system.

Cadbury Moose @259: Hope you put in an isolator valve on the pipe while ypu were at it! My father-in-law has gradually made sure we have them on pretty much all the tap pipes - not sure about the ones to the bath (I'd have to take the panel off to have a look), but I think we have them on all the others by now. And on the pipes to the toilets.

Rickibeth: If it's a "replace the whole thing" than it depends a bit on whether you need it to look like the old one or just to work. If the later, then it may be that removing the old one and putting on a brand spanking new unit would be the easiest and cheapest option - and might be something you -could- do yourself, with the help of a DIY book or two.

But yes, if there are no cut-off valves, you're going to have to drain the system before you can do anything else. I presume you know where your mains water comes in and where to cut it off? If the kitchen (cold) tap is fed from the mains, then you should just be able to turn it off at the mains than let it drain and it shouldn't take too long. [And forgive me if I'm teaching my proverbial grandmother to suck eggs.]

Dave Bell, Cadbury Moose, dcb: no teaching grandmothers here! I'm very grateful for all the information.

The tap doesn't need to look exactly like the old one. What it needs to be is the most affordable one for the job -- because there is no way the house in question will sell as anything other than a fixer-upper. For the most part, it's structurally sound, and there's a relatively new furnace in place, and it has very good bones -- and if *I* were buying it, the original Art Deco tiling in the bathroom upstairs would be a selling point, though it has to be re-grouted/re-caulked with dispatch. But cosmetically? It's barely been touched since the 1960s, as the gold-speckled Formica in the kitchen and the grasscloth wallpaper all through the first floor can attest. And the money for a full kitchen remodel and whole-house cosmetic updating is NOT there.

So, functional repairs only, done as affordably as possible. Which, in this case, I believe means letting the plumber do it, because if I try it myself and break it in the process, that usually means paying the plumber MORE. Especially since it's one that my dad said he wouldn't try himself.

Must contact plumber & point out we don't need a stylish faucet unit, though.

Abi: Thank you for putting "The Standard you Walk Past is the Standard You Accept"* up in your Parherlia - much better exposure than my mentioning it in this OT. I also followed to the text of his speech at the UN International Women's Day Conference last month: Check against Delivery

In there he explains how his altruistic and pragmatic considerations go hand in hand.

And yes, we need to think about this wrt other events.

[*Minor point: Abi, in the version of the video which you link to, I think the video is a fraction of a second behind the audio and I found it distracting - the version directly at YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaqpoeVgr8U) and the one at BoingBoing which i linked to @239 I found better. No idea why, and it might just be my perception, but I thought I'd mention it.]

Possibly the links (I did check them). Or maybe I still had some extra spaces somewhere. I can offer mixed mushrooms in a white sauce; should go well over pasta, rice or quinoa.

An editing question, which has been bugging me for a while since it came up on a wiki I was editing:

I "grew up" italizicing Latin contractions such as etc. and e.g.. Another editor claims that these days those count as loanwords and shouldn't be italicized. The example he gave was "vice versa", which I would accept as a loanword. What's best practice on this these days?

#255
But that leaves out the part where he gets paramilitary training from the old man of the mountains

Dave Harmon @263: In British English, at least, they are no longer italicised. Vice versa is an edge case for me (I would be happy to italicise it) while I would definitely italicise sensu stricto and sensu lato.

At least you probably know the difference between "i.e." and "e.g." - too many people appear not to know it at all, which I find extremely irritating.

I would agree that etc., at the very least, should not be italicized. More generally:

1) The more commonly used the Latin, the more likely it is to not need italics. I might not italicize "quid pro quo" because it comes up in casual speech; I would almost certainly italicize "sensu stricto", which does not.

2) If publication is involved, there should be an agreed on style guide which will specify, or give more specific guidelines.

3) If all else fails, google and see how reasonably well-edited publications online format it. Or just use the number of results as your rule of thumb for whether or not it's common enough to not need italics anymore.

OK, I was about to download an app called "Free Ringtones for Android" when I noticed that the fine print says the app has access to do scary things like modify my contacts and write to my call log.

Is this really needed for the app to function, or is it something I should avoid?

I oppose the use of i.e. and e.g. in business communication, or indeed in any writing intended for non-fannish, non-language-scholarly audiences.

Half of everyone has a reversed understanding of what they mean, so even if you use them correctly half of your audience will misunderstand.

I recommend using 'that is' and 'for example' instead.

Rikibeth @261

My father never thought of things such as isolator valves. If a tap needed fixing he would look for the stopcock. We used to live in a house that didn't have such modern features. Assuming there are no problems with access, it would be worth fitting isolators as part of the work.

I've seen enough changes in the standard technology of these things that I would want to check the current options. It wouldn't astonish me if pipes sizes and threads were something to watch for.

267
Xopher, that would put me off, although I know people who use different ring tones for different callers, which would, I think, need that kind of access.

I do too, but you can set that in the phone. Why do ringtones need to be a app anyway?

It's also really irritating that none of the ringtones that come with the phone sound anything like a phone ringing (I mean a cellphone, not an old-fashioned bell). The ones that do all cost money. Bastards.

Dave Bell @ #269

" ...look for the stopcock."

It's under the gas cooker (and this moose has an extended-length T-spanner to operate it without the need to move the cooker). Otherwise, it's the one in the street (which also requires an extension bar to operate it - in an emergency, cutting a slot in the end of a piece of floorboard (width reduced to go down the hole) does the job nicely). A friend has one stopcock in the street feeding four houses, but that house was built just after the European War and still has the pipework for gas lighting in the walls (Disconnected!). (I discovered the cable drum wrappers under the floor from when electric lighting was fitted in 1923 (along with all the plaster rubble and a broken hammer handle) when running telephone and network cabling.)

I tend to fit isolator valves to taps (faucets) when I need to overhaul them. (This does not mean at 1930Z on Christmas Eve!)

Xopher @ 271

I admit to knowing very little about modern cellphones, especially smartphones, but you might check your manual to see if you can set your ringtone to be an mp3 file that's on your device. If you can, then it's just a matter of finding a no-strings-attached mp3 file of the phonering that you want, and loading it onto your phone simply as a file that you can find.

I say this because my old dumbphone died recently, and had an old-fashioned ring, and my new cheap dumbphone didn't come with an old-fashioned ring, so I looked up the manual, and found that I could set an mp3 file as the ringtone. Not that I've actually DONE it yet, mind you, but I apparently can.

I am definitely allowing the plumber to sort out the wall-mounted tap. Having seen the above discussion, I've come to the conclusion that I'm likely to fuck it up.

The next issue is re-grouting the tile in the upstairs bathroom. That one, I have every confidence I can manage correctly. The issue there becomes how much a professional will charge vs. the time it will take me. Can't move in until it's done, because the cracked grout due to house settling means the shower leaks; however, moving in is not a thing with a deadline. And I know that I will both love and hate picking out all the old grout -- it's satisfyingly fiddly work, but there's SO MUCH of it. So if, for instance, the parts car in the driveway sells for roughly the cost of a pro job, it'll be worth it.

Augh, home repair.

274
We moved into a house that had been empty for six months, after two months of cleanup work on it (using, for example, straight linseed-oil soap on the woodwork).
Some years later, my father rebuilt the heating system - it was steam heat in the SF Bay area (!), and whoever installed it ran the mail lines in the attic, so steam went down and condensate went up. Funny thing: it worked so much better after my father re-located the main lines to the crawl-space (and fixed the one heater line that had a nail through it).

Dave H., #264: IANAeditor, but FWIW I still italicize i.e. and e.g.*, but would never even think about italicizing etc.

* Except sometimes when I'm feeling especially lazy, or in fora where HTML italics don't work and I have to represent italics via *asterisks*.

Lee @ 257 -

I've always wanted to try an egg cream. What's the name of the deli? Thanks!

I enjoyed the photos of not-nude statues here.

Steve C., #278: Katz's on Westheimer. It's our favorite late-night place to go.

Thanks, Lee - I remember Katz's but hadn't been there since the 80's....I'll make a point to visit it again.

Xopher @272: You can also find laptop software to create custom ringtones which you then sideload to your phone. I use Ringtone Maker. It's freeware; I have no idea if it's the best one, but it suffices for me.

Not sure why. Only one link and I don't think it's of a suspicious format.

[The /product/ subdirectory in the URL made the test-slugs' eyestalks twitch. -- Maunie Speilfug, Duty Gnome]

Thanks, GlendaP.

And now, a glimpse into the activities that usually hide behind the internet's facade of crowd-sourcing:

#define meme: "protagonist of my next novel"
Related to: "name of my next band"
Form: "[cool word] [Jones|Smith] is the protagonist of my next novel."
Example: "Derecho Jones is the protagonist of my next novel."

They're friendly, so it's OK. Not surewhy though, unless it was codelike sequences of text.

[It was indeed the code-like sequences, which uncomfortably resembled what spammers send when they've set up their software wrong. -- Borin O'Boris, Duty Gnome]

dcb #266, Fade Manley #267, Xopher Halftongue #269, Lee #277: Thanks for your responses.

Something that I forgot to mention is that several of the sites I checked at the time drew the line by unfamiliarity, which a couple of your comments square with. Xopher, you (unfortunately) have a point about i.e. and e.g., despite The Oatmeal's best efforts. Though, that very point makes me more inclined to italicize them when I do use them. ;-)

I guess it's time I stopped italicizing "etc.", anyhow.

Possibly muffed the punctuation....

[A munged link. -- Ponchetran Xix, Duty Gnome]

Re abi's Roman concrete parhelion -- note that the article is written by SF writer Paul Preuss, a good writer and a nice guy (IME).

And in the home repair department:

The air vent to the bomb shelter has definitely become a water inlet, to the point where when everyone was huddling in the basement when the tornado passed by¹, they hear a little waterfall. My thesis is that after fifty years of being buried, the thing has become rotten and is serving as a drain for rainfall along the front of the house. OK, so any ideas about plugging the leak?

¹17 miles long across Montgomery County, passed less than a quarter mile south of us. We lost a big branch from a silver maple; neighbor's pine trees landed in the middle of our boxwoods.

Charlie, I'd think a combination of a French drain and waterproofing coatings would do the trick.

Check with a local contractor.

Lee #277: Why? I.E. and e.g. have been used as abbreviations in English since the nineteenth century, at least. They've long been naturalised into the language.

Rikibeth @ 275 ...
The next issue is re-grouting the tile in the upstairs bathroom. That one, I have every confidence I can manage correctly. The issue there becomes how much a professional will charge vs. the time it will take me. Can't move in until it's done, because the cracked grout due to house settling means the shower leaks; however, moving in is not a thing with a deadline. And I know that I will both love and hate picking out all the old grout -- it's satisfyingly fiddly work, but there's SO MUCH of it. So if, for instance, the parts car in the driveway sells for roughly the cost of a pro job, it'll be worth it.

Er, well... the last time I said "Huh, I'd better regrout that", the result was stripping the wall down to the bare studs and rebuilding/replacing -- the grout had let the backing plywood behind the tiles get wet, and from wet degrade into mushy and nasty.

One thing I've absolutely learned from living in a moderately old house (not quite 120yrs yet) is that absolutely NOTHING is ever straightforward (or quick!), and the most deadly phrase is something along the lines of "Oh, that should be a quick'n'easy fix".

Hells - finding a drain valve for the tub... said tub having a drain pipe in a size that almost nobody had heard of, never mind actually -carrying-...

At any rate, as far as the shower goes, there's something to be said for plenty of plastic and tape, and dealing with the job in stages, should it turn out to be as featureful as mine was.

xeger reminds me that a lot of American housing is built very differently to what we expect in Britain. Wood rather than brick and plaster behind the bathroom tiles...

Xeger@292: my house is only 1970's, but standards have changed fast enough I can have some of the same issues. Sinks, for example, generally have the drain outlets located at back rather than dead center.

Dave Bell@293: recent code changes at least require 6mm concrete board backing the tile. I have had to rebuild nearly every area where water supply plumbing exists in this house for just that reason, though. Now there's double and triple redundant water exclusion, but you have to wonder at the thought process that concluded that grout on wallboard or plywood was good enough.

xeger @292: If it turns out we can't afford the tile guy's estimate by the time we're ready to move in, it'll have to be plastic and tape. Or three people sharing the downstairs shower...

The house, you see, was built in 1936, and has been continuously occupied since 1969. The woman who was six when she moved in is still there, and my housemate and I are planning to move in with her. But first we have to clear out a proportion of the Stuff that's been there since 1969, so there's room in the bedrooms for our Stuff.

There are two full bathrooms in the house -- the original one upstairs, and the downstairs one that was expanded from a half bath to accommodate the current resident when her disability started interfering with stairs. (Her bedroom is the dining room.) So, in theory, we could all use that one. But it'd be a lot nicer to have a functional full rather than a half bath on the same level as the bedrooms.

At some point, we as a household want to move to another city, so the house has to be in salable condition -- but a lot of that can be done when we're all in residence. I do think that having all basic systems functional will help the house fetch a higher price even as a fixer-upper, because it'll mean the new owners can pick and choose what they want to do first, rather than be forced to do a functional repair when they're dying to make some cosmetic ones.

And, yes, I do consider a full kitchen remodel to be cosmetic when the current kitchen has an undamaged floor, working plumbing, and working appliances, even if by present-day standards it's ugly as sin. I really hope we'll be able to find a similar functional-but-ugly house when we move, as that'll drive down the price. Gold-speckled Formica counters in the kitchen? I grew up with that. 1970s avocado tile in the bathroom? Well, I grew up with tan ones, with wallpaper that had burnt orange and brown ferns on a silver foil backing -- but there's a reason all my towels are white, and a decently maintained avocado-green toilet should flush just as well as a white one. (Better, if they're allowed to keep the original instead of switching it to low-flow.) And any wallpaper that's just too horrible to live with, I can rent a steamer and paint the walls white my own self. Done it before, and I know how to spackle holes and cracks, too. I'm good at that; my uncle, the one with the construction company, taught me how to mud drywall when he was building an extension on his house.

My current housemate doesn't care about aesthetics at ALL -- she uses Rubbermaid dressers instead of wooden ones, because she likes that they're lightweight for moving. That's beyond even my theory of practicality-first - I'm not giving up my Victorian mahogany bedroom set, or my modern solid-oak rolltop with the built-in holes for computer cords. But I can tolerate a great deal in the way of fixtures. And my future housemate is accustomed to wonky aesthetics, and is practical about dealing with a limited income -- our priorities would be grab bars in the bathrooms, and a wheelchair ramp for the entrance. She doesn't use a chair now, but she did at one point before, and there's a high probability she'll need one again some time in the future, and in the meantime, a ramp would add greatly to her comfort, as it's a daily toss-up whether she's using a walker or a cane.

As long as I'm living in a house where the roof doesn't leak, the basement doesn't flood, and the heating, the plumbing, and the electricity all work -- the rest is gravy.

Henry Troup@ 294 ...
Xeger@292: my house is only 1970's, but standards have changed fast enough I can have some of the same issues. Sinks, for example, generally have the drain outlets located at back rather than dead center.

Tile sizes... ("Oh, I'll just grab some tiles to cope with this re-grouting thing ... plain white, shouldn't be a big deal ..." (@&$@#&($ ).

xeger: My parents ran into tile sizes on a recently-built condo! Then again, I think that was entirely their fault. I believe the story was that they'd picked up some decorative ones in Italy to use for the backsplash, and they didn't have quite enough, and my dad thought "oh, no problem, I'll just pick up some plain ones to finish it out..." ...only to discover that tiles of that size weren't available ANYWHERE.

Good thing he knows how to use a tile cutter. But I think he went through most of a box to create enough unbroken ones to use!

Rikibeth @ 297 ...
Good thing he knows how to use a tile cutter. But I think he went through most of a box to create enough unbroken ones to use!

It was a smidge expensive as a one-time buy, but I've yet to regret getting a wet tile saw. There's no way to use the standard 'score-and-snap' tile cutters with anything other than thin tile (well, barring lots and lots of patience, hope, luck and cursing). It's one of those tools that I don't use often, but are absolutely worth the storage and original price when I do need it.

xeger: For all I know he may have given in and gotten a wet tile saw. I just remember the agita about the score-and-snap kind. My dad is stubborn.

Don't even get me started about the time he replaced the linoleum (well, I think it was one generation newer than true linoleum - vinyl sheeting? Whatever was common in 1961 when the house was built) kitchen floor with vinyl tile in the house I grew up in. Which was navy blue screen-printed with white pindots. And the screen had been just slightly off true.

Did I mention that my dad, although a fairly skilled amateur handyman, worked in software for a company that specialized in computer typesetting? And had developed his perception of printing and margins to a very, very small point size?

He spent HOURS arranging the tiles so that the edges would align to create the straightest possible visual margins between the tiles, rather than giving an effect of thinning and widening along their length.

My mother just wanted a finished floor (funny, that). It drove her CRAZY.

Our bathroom still has avocado green bath etc. And patterned green tiles. What's the problem? Some friends of ours, their first comment when they saw round the house was "well, of course you'll have to replace the bathroom fixtures." To which we replied "Why? We like green." As far as we're concerned, just because it's not fashionable is no reason to change it. Okay, the palm pattern on the tiles wouldn't have been our first choice, and we wouldn't have put them on over the ones that were there previously, but it's all perfectly functional.

299
We had linoleum with a pattern that looked like paint had dripped on it: dots in sizes from about half-inch down. In bright colors. (Never drop a thumbtack on floor in that pattern. You can't see it at all.)
The next house had similar linoleum, and after a few years we pulled it up and had it replaced. (Yes, we did the removal ourselves. I don't recommend it. Messy, messy operation.) We had nice pebble-textured sheet vinyl with urethane-epoxy coating, an early no-wax flooring, put in, and spent a couple of days elsewhere while it cured.

dcb: I'm with you, even though I don't like avocado green.

My maternal grandparents' house was built in the late 1950s. They never changed the bathrooms from their original robin's-egg-blue with starburst wallpaper and pale yellow with... I'm not sure about the wallpaper in there, but it was original. Likewise, they never did more to the kitchen than paint the cabinets (in an eye-popping yellow) and change the wallpaper every so often. I was sad when they papered over the monarch butterflies of my earliest childhood with mid-70s giant flowers in burnt orange, harvest gold, and avocado green. The coppertone wall oven was separate from the gas cooktop, which I liked even though the oven was smaller than standard. And for the longest time they had a fridge with a curved front and a lever handle.

My paternal grandparents had gorgeous black-and-white Art Deco tile in their bathroom. The house was a good bit older than that, though. It also had a toilet-without-sink just off the kitchen, which I believe had been enclosed from a bit of the back porch, and a toilet in a step-up cubby in the basement. Sometime in the 1950s or '60s, they'd redecorated the main floor with grasscloth wallpaper and a large built-in china cabinet with fold-open doors in part of the dining area. I suspect there had been some knocking out of walls.

I'm wondering if the house had been built without a bathroom and the plumbing was all a retrofit. The size and placement of the upstairs bathroom felt like it might once have been a bedroom, especially as there were only two proper-sized bedrooms upstairs and one tiny one that felt as if it might have been converted from a large linen closet, and (once their children had moved out) was used variously as a study or a dressing room). They moved in in the early 1940s, but I suspect all the plumbing retrofits were done before then.

Old houses are fascinating. If I were to live in a recently-built house, I'd feel like something was missing, despite the advantages of code compliance and all that.

Rikibeth @ 295: I agree wholeheartedly about not replacing fixtures just for color.
I do disagree about low-flo toilets. My new Toto Drake low-flo is the best toilet I've ever had, and is so much better than the old full-size tank one that was in this house!

Rikibeth: when I was 13, my family moved to an old farmhouse. That building is presently about 280 years old, I suppose. Only problem is that it really isn't built for tall people, which is no problem for me but does mean that, given my husband's height, there's no way we're ever going to live there. :-(

Our (mine and my husband's) house was built in 1929, so has decent-sized rooms (even with all the book cases and book shelves lining many of the walls). The down side is that the walls are solid brick, so we don't have the option to put insulation inside them. The old farm house also has solid brick walls, but about twice as thick...

Rikibeth, #295: The house my parents bought when we moved to Nashville had a lot of that ugly aesthetic as well. All the carpets and drapes were... well, I thought of them as "olive-green", but they were probably sold as "avocado". And the bathroom I was expected to use had flocked olive-green wallpaper, which my parents refused to replace (although they replaced the equally-ugly wallpaper in their bathroom). My response was to demand a bright-orange shower curtain, drapes, and towels, to at least mitigate the olive a bit.

And I agree with you that redoing a perfectly functional kitchen just because it's unattractive is a cosmetic issue.

and @299: My partner has that kind of micrometer-calibrated visual acuity -- and no matter how many times I've tried to explain it to him, he still doesn't quite understand that I don't. This has caused Issues now and then.

I might very well have thought that the optical illusion of thinning-and-widening tiles was cool. But then, I tend to like things that mess with people's heads.

and @302: I think our house is of the same vintage as your grandparents'. It definitely has the same coppertone wall oven and separate cooktop, and a lot of real-wood paneling. The bathrooms are, unfortunately, Barbie pink (front) and institutional green (back). My partner has repainted the pink walls in the front one to plain white, which at least tones that down a bit! The shower stall in the back bath is non-functional; the old-style lead pan has rotted out, and because my partner's ex insisted on using the shower anyhow, the walls around it are badly water-damaged, which we don't have the money to have repaired or the time it would take to DIY it. So we use that shower as our fabric-storage closet, and have effectively a bath-and-a-half instead of 2 full baths. This isn't such an issue with only the 2 of us in the house.

Rikibeth (302): It also had a toilet-without-sink just off the kitchen

My parents' house (built sometime in the 1930s; my family moved in in 1962) has what I call a three-quarter bath just off the kitchen: toilet and small shower but no sink*. My mother says it used to be a pantry; it was the previous owners who converted it. The back porch**, which the bathroom opens off of, has a permanently-locked door leading out into empty space†; the former stairs were removed before my family moved in.

*there's a sink right outside the bathroom door
**more of a sunroom than a porch, since it's completely enclosed but with more window than wall
†it's a one-story house, but the property slopes sharply front to back, so the back of the house is two stories tall, with a finished basement on the lower level under the back half

janetl@303: totally agreeing about Toto toilets. They make low-flow completely practical. Low-flow showers, on the other hand -- I've never used one I actually liked (though some come close).

Just realized my post @303 could be read as "replace all your old toilets!" I just meant that if you have a bad one, replacing it with a good low-flow one is possible.

Guinea pig armor for sale. 100w% off the purchase price to support Metropolitan Guinea Pig Rescue. Quite adorable.

Mary Aileen (306): I just checked the Zillow listing for my paternal grandparents' house. It says it was built in 1926. It also says it has 4 bedrooms, which I cannot understand at all unless someone finished part of the attic or converted the basement office space to a bedroom.

My former house, built 1897, had a door-leading-nowhere off the stair landing. It had very clearly gone to the kitchen (thus allowing you to bypass the entry hall), but a remodel had created cabinets in front of that door space, so the stairs were gone.

There was also an obvious cover for a stovepipe hole in a disused chimney stack in the kitchen.

I'm starting to feel that, in old houses, the original fixtures should be preserved as much as possible, including repairing rather than replacing them, only doing systems upgrades like wiring and plumbing as needed for safety. As for cosmetic features, it's all right to remove wallpaper that displeases you, and to remove wall-to-wall carpeting, but other than that, decorating changes should be made with furniture and other temporary objects.

Even if the house style is currently out of fashion, it'll probably come back, and original fixtures will seem really cool to some future occupant.

dcb: Books are said to be very good insulation.

Xopher Halftongue #268:

OK, I was about to download an app called "Free Ringtones for Android" when I noticed that the fine print says the app has access to do scary things like modify my contacts and write to my call log.

I'd just stay away from that sort of app entirely. Offering an entire custom app offering free, trivial things are a common way for spammers and scammers to sneak things in. For example, this app (which I've never heard of and am going only on your description) might well go and advertise itself using your name to your entire address book and recently-called list.

If you want a new ringtone, just, you know, download a sound file. Look up how to set a ringtone on your particular phone model.

Yeah, I think the Verizon version of Android is selectively crippled to try to make you use more data. It won't let you create a folder on the phone, for example, and doesn't have some key settings for using WiFi by preference.

It's also not a coincidence that all the included ringtones are stupid things that would never cut through music, and they charge for ones that sound like a real phone.

Rikibeth @ 302 ...
I'm wondering if the house had been built without a bathroom and the plumbing was all a retrofit. The size and placement of the upstairs bathroom felt like it might once have been a bedroom, especially as there were only two proper-sized bedrooms upstairs and one tiny one that felt as if it might have been converted from a large linen closet, and (once their children had moved out) was used variously as a study or a dressing room). They moved in in the early 1940s, but I suspect all the plumbing retrofits were done before then.

I'm absolutely certain that my (currently only functional) bathroom was once a bedroom -- 9'x12' wouldn't have been a vaguely reasonable size for a bathroom in a house of this age and style.

In fact, I strongly suspect that the bedroom closet (one of two total in the house) sits where the bathroom used to be -- but I haven't felt brave enough to rip things up looking for details.

Old houses are fascinating. If I were to live in a recently-built house, I'd feel like something was missing, despite the advantages of code compliance and all that.

Indeedy -- they feel weirdly sterile.

302/314
I had an aunt an uncle with a house built, I think, in the early 20s. It had a largish front bedroom (with two doors, one to the living room, suggesting it might have been intended for something else), a smaller bedroom in the back corner (reasonably sized) a,d a bathroom in between that was something like 8x10 feet - it had a built-in cupboard thing on the side with the window. There was another small bedroom that was a couple of steps down from the central hall, which might originally have been part of the back porch. So, from front to back on the on side of the house, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, and on the other side, living room, dining room, kitchen, back porch (down a couple of steps). The kitchen and the dining room also had doors to the hall - that was where the furnace was.

I have ripe bananas, if Their Gnomeships would like.

['Twas a punctuation issue. -- Bormoform Kiat, Duty Gnome]

OK, I admit I've used the word 'mentee' to mean someone who receives mentoring, but only as a joke. I've now seen it used by someone who...was probably not joking.

Is it really a business-acceptable word now? Because KT, WTWCT, YKGOML, SKIA if so.

Obviously, the word for someone who is mentored-at would be "mentat".

So, about Man of Steel....

I wanted to like the movie and there are parts of it that are brilliant. On balance, the good outweighs the bad, and I'll recommend it on that basis.

The Good: It's a fresh take on the Superman mythos in the movies (the comics have visited the themes) and most of the segments on Krypton are moving. Russell Crowe does an excellent job as Jor-El.

They really get into what "strange visitor from another planet" really means. The paranoia and fear comes off right.

Henry Cavill looks great in the role. No complaints there. The Superman costume is very well done -- it's about time they lost the red underpants.

Amy Adams is a perfect Lois Lane.

And Kevin Costner and Diane Lane do a good job as Jonathan and Martha Kent.

The Bad: The endless and pointless action scenes. You could have dumped 80% of those and had a much better movie.

Gurer'f ab jnl gurl pbhyq unir qbar unys gur fghss gurl qvq jvgubhg xvyyvat zvyyvbaf bs crbcyr. Fxlfpencre gbccyvatf, tenivgl ornzf evccvat hc Zrgebcbyvf, fhcreureb naq fhcreivyynva gbffvat rnpu bgure guebhtu frireny ohvyqvatf....vg'f n tbbq guvat gurer jrera'g nal ynjlref nebhaq. Gurl jbhyq unir znqr zvaprzrng bs Fhcrf.

But there were moments that worked, and worked really well. And I'll probably see it again for those moments.

Xopher, I've mostly seen 'mentee' seriously, but then, most of the times I've seen 'mentor' it's been 'person assigned to another person to show them the ropes'. Mentor/protege relationships happen more organically than mentor/mentee ones.

One of the bridge clubs in Houston has two monthly games pairing people with more than 300 masterpoints with people who have fewer. They call them "Mentor-Mentee" games. I feel your pain, Xopher, although I would really like you to expand TLAATEWICMHOTO^*.

I find it helps a little to pretend that the word is instead "manatee".

^*That long abbreviation at the end which I can't make head or tail of.

If you break the acronym down into its parts, it's actually moderately googleable. (Kids Today, What's The World Coming To, etc.)

I've seen people say that the Superman's fundamental characteristic is protecting people, and he was careless about that in the movie.

Rikibeth, you're probably making the right choice about letting the plumber handle the kitchen sink. Much of US plumbing changed in the 1940s, as I learned by owning a 1931 house. Pipe fittings that are nominally the same size with the same threading? Not really. It's easy to turn a slow drip into a fast drip; it's much harder to turn it back into a slow drip. (It was a bathtub faucet, and my cat liked to sit in the tub and watch the water drip anyway.) The tub drain wasn't threaded, it was soft bendable lead soldered onto the tub's fittings and the pipes, so you had to be careful when snaking out the drain. Things like that.

Bill Stewart: good to know. This one's already a fast drip - actually a constant trickle, and no shutoff valve beneath the sink. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the water bill goes down once it's fixed even when two more people are living in the house with the attendant showers and laundry.

Xopher, I do feel your pain, since I am from a moderately pedantic background myself. But in a situation where (a) everyone knows what you mean when you say 'mentee' in context and (b) a more suitable word is lacking (since "protege/e" has slightly different and not always appropriate connotations), I'm inclined to give 'mentee' a pass. I believe it's analogous to the equally inappropriate, but equally transparent, use of 'cisgender'.

After all, the correct (original) counterpart to "mentor" is "telemachos" and there's not a chance in Hell anyone would get that.

Even 'mentoree' would be better (since 'mentor' is now being used as a verb).

I'd get "Telemachos" more quickly than either "mentee" or "mentoree". But then, I'm strange.

I think we should just use Padawan.

Open thready half-advertisement:

Clarion and Clarion West are doing Write-a-thons to encourage people to write while the workshops are going on, and to raise money. If you'd like encouragement to write, consider signing up. You don't have to actually raise any money for them -- but if you sign up for the Clarion West one, there are 4 donors who have pledged to donate $600 if at least 300 people sign up. They're all donating $1 per person who signs up if under 300 people do.

Deadlines for signup are this Friday. Here are the websites:

Clarion West Write-a-thon
Clarion Write-a-thon

Full disclosure: my partner Karen Anderson is the current Chair of the Clarion West board, an unpaid position. I volunteer to do massage on the participants.

David 321: As Tom said, it's Kids Today, What's The World Coming To, You Kids Get Off My Lawn, Shakes Kane In Air.

Yeah, Kane. Dunno why I did that. Should be SCIA.

Tough Question Time:

Ardala's gradually lost the use of all but one limb. She stopped squeaking her toys back in December, and even the wheelchair is too difficult for her. She has lost fecal and now urinary continence. Physical Therapy has improved the last year of her life, but after this last UTI issue (and her second to last leg), we have made the heart-breaking decision to let her go. Is there a way to ask a vet on the phone for a referral for a vet who can do home-euthanasia? I don't want to come in as I have neither the time or the money at this point... Is it unethical for a vet to provide that info without an office visit?

(reading this I sound like a monster, keeping a dog alive like this. Rest assured, the last few awful things have happened pretty quickly.)

nerdycellist: I sound like a monster

No, you don't.
Everything you've posted about Ardala shows the love, concern, and informed care you've been providing.

re: vet referral
Why not just ask your vet if they provide that service (even if you're sure they don't)? If not, ask for the referral.

nerdycellist, no advice, but I'm so sorry to hear it. ((hugs))

(continuing)
Or your doggy physical therapy team. You have plenty of contacts you can phone.

Nerdycellist, you're not a monster. Ask your vet (who, after all knows the sitation and knows you're not a monster) if they'd consider doing it. If they say they cannot, ask them for a referral.

And <hugs>

nerdycellist @332:

You don't sound like a monster. You've been making the choices you've made out of love for her. No one here knows the situation the way you do, so no one's in a place to judge.

I'm sorry it's come to this. But I'm glad she'll die as she lived: loved.

nerdycellist: hugs if you want 'em. I hope Ardala gets acquainted with my old boy Linus; recent arrivals should stick together, and he was always a gallant fan of Da Ladies.

Thanks all for your support. Ardala will definitely look forward to meeting Linus - and she loves boys too.

I have emailed our physical therapist, but she has yet to email back. I know I should have called, but despite the fact that I think this is the best decision, I really can't actually talk about it without bursting into tears. Highly annoying. I also know that our PT grieves almost as much for clients' dogs as she does her own. Part of me is afraid she's angry with us for not doing more - but that's just my own judginess I think.

Ardala's vet has only been seeing her since November and has never known her as an active dog. We haven't had time to build up the kind of rapport that we had with the first vet (and none of the ones in between). We just stopped in on Thursday for the UTI from hell, but as it was a last-minute visit, I didn't get any face-time with her. I can't imagine that even though she only saw her for the UTI and did not do an orthopedic exam that she would be unaware of everything; we were just in last month with fecal incontinence and pain-management concerns. Maybe I'll call the office. I'm just in dread that it's going to be a "come in so we can discuss", which will make me feel guilty if I don't.

Anyway, Ardala's getting the Best Week Ever. Last night and this morning she got some of my Filet Mignon. Tonight she gets her very own chicken breast. Every night we take her around the block in the Little Red Wagon we got for her TPLO recovery, and she gets to feel the wind in her ears and smell the neighborhood smells again. On friday, we have a massage (no swimming; she hates the water) scheduled with her favorite massage therapist. And pending vet availability, we will say goodbye on Saturday. After which there will be drinking. And laundry. But probably mostly drinking.

nerdycellist, I bet if you call your vet's office, the tech or office staff will give you the name & number of a local "euthanasia vet," no questions asked. (This is, after all, your decision, not theirs, to make.) In some areas, this has turned into a bit of a specialty. Where I am, there is one vet who works part time at a local animal hospital, and the rest of the time providing in-home end-of-life care. Over the last six years I've engaged her services twice for cats and have been extremely grateful.

Hugs. Sorry you have to do this.

nerdycellist, #339: I know I should have called, but despite the fact that I think this is the best decision, I really can't actually talk about it without bursting into tears.

Hardly an unusual reaction, and nothing to be ashamed of.

Have you tried searching on Google for a home-euthanasia service in your area?

My sympathies and condolences. This is never easy, and the way it's happening to you and Ardala is even harder.

nerdycellist #339: My sympathies and condolences. It sounds like you've done the best you could have for Ardala, but "for all things there is a season"....

nerdycellist, we'll be facing the euthanasia problem around our cat Mabel very soon. But we've got an incredible rapport with her cancer vet, and we'll know when it's time: just as you did. I send you as much of a virtual hug as you wish to accept.

And I bet your canine PT is really used to people bursting into tears around similar decisions, and I'll bet she'd feel -right?- -comradely?- about joining in with tears herself. And yes, most vet offices have had to deal with this problem before, and have ready referrals via the front desk (not even going through the doctor). Lizzy speaks truth (as she so very frequently does).

nerdycellist @332: There's no shame in tears. It's never an easy decision; you've done all you can for Ardala, and given her all the time possible, and now you're trying to give her the last gift which you can give. Phone and ask; if they won't come out and do it then yes, they should refer you to someone who will. {{{{hug}}}}

@326-329

We could always use "mento".

The plural, of course, would be Mentos...

:-)

nerdycellist @ 332... No monster, no. You did what you could.

I never appreciated isolation valves so much until I didn't have them. We tried to do a cosmetic bathroom faucet upgrade in the house we were renting. The only way to turn off water to the bathroom sink meant there was no water available anywhere in the house except cold water to the kitchen sink. After installing the new faucet and turning the water back on—disaster! water spurting everywhere! Put back the old known good fixture and we got the same results. Until we could get the landlord in, we had to carry a bucket of water from the kitchen to flush the toilet. I started to grumble at the way we had inconvenienced ourselves until I realized that it was much much much better than not being able to flush at all.

Xopher @331: SCIA - the Society for Creativity In Acronymism?

Nerdycellist, you're not a monster, and Ardala knows that. I'm sending hugs for you and skritches for Miss A. Miss Bella will meet her on the other side.

nerdycellist @ 332 ...
My profound empathies.

FWIW, many vets these days will actually do housecalls for euthanasia, even though they'll do them for nothing else.

For myself, I was 'happier' to have a vet I didn't expect to see again anytime soon coming to the house -- it was hard enough without dealing with somebody who might expect more than my being a curt and upset watering pot.

Supreme Court to Arizona: No, you don't get to unilaterally amend / repeal the Voting Rights Act.

By 7-2 (Thomas and Alito dissenting), the Supreme Court has ruled that Arizona's "papers, please" voter registration law is illegal because it conflicts with Federal law. With any luck, this will be seen as precedent for voiding similar laws (or attempts to enact them) in a number of other states.

351
What they told Arizona is that it can't change the 'Motor Voter' registration form unilaterally, by requiring proof of citizenship. Arizona is, as you would expect, trying to find a way around the ruling, because [snark] there are so many non-citizens wanting to vote. [/snark]

When my sister's boyfriend's giant newfie's time had come, the vet made a housecall. Dragging the poor beast into the car and into the office would have been torture.

Nerdycellist, My thoughts and prayers are with you. I'm reminded of the time I had to put my cat Sylvester to sleep. He had been maimed by another animal; I never found out what.* It was very quick. I buried him in a favorite spot in the back yard.

Wyman

*It, I would have happily killed. With my bare hands, if possible.

Nerdycellist, a suggestion: When my dog had been given the first shot—the sedative that puts them (just) to sleep before the euthanasia shot—she had some time as she was settling down. The veterinary technician went to get her a treat, and came back with a chocolate bar. Her last aware moments were the perfect bliss of eating chocolate. She looked so astounded and delighted! Chocolate is, of course, dangerous for dogs but at that point, why not?

nerdycellist, adding my voice: You don't sound like a monster, but like a caring pet owner. May you have the strength to do what must be done, and may you find healing afterwards, an it be your own will.

nerdycellist, you are a caring and compassionate human. I grieve with thee.

nerdycellist, our thoughts are with you and Ardala.

There's never a good time fore such things, but it has taken me a few days to get around to this.

My father, Joseph Bell, died in hospital, on the night of the 13th/14th June. It was around midnight, and the 14th is the formal date on the paperwork, but, in essence, the nurse found him dead when she came with his medication.

He was weak, though showing slight signs of recovery from the illness which had put him in hospital. He was old, less than a fortnight short of his 93rd Birthday. My brother and I had seen him that afternoon. It was unexpected enough that the hospital didn't make one of those "come at once" telephone calls.

It's going to be a big change for me, after so many years of caring first for my mother and then for him.

I know the mettle of this blog's readers. I don't have a date set for the funeral yet, but prayers, good thoughts, or whatever else your faith prefers, might be best timed for the 24th June, his birthday.

We talk of the baby-boomers. He was part of an even bigger boom, after the First World War, which is still a record for the UK.

Lee @351

I read the article and noticed the two justices who disagreed on what seemed to be a very clear piece of law. I avoided the comment thread which followed; it seemed full of the usual lunacy. It used to be, in the days of printed news and on-paper letters, that the responses you saw were selected. The editors and publishers were allowing letter-writers to use a limited resource. Today, the first comment I saw was a promotion for one of those work-from-home scams.

Maybe if a few more people were checking facts, and blocking the spammers, we wouldn't have an unemployment problem. And how much money in the budgets of the new media vanishes into the deep pockets of the powerful?

Condolences, Dave Bell. My sympathies nerdycellist.

Lila @326 I used telemachos some years ago when my mentor tried to call me a mentee. It didn't work out as well as I hoped.

Steve C @329 A lawyer friend of mine does actually refer to his trainees as padawan. Everyone seems to be happy with that.

I'm putting in a good word for Three Parts Dead, a recent fantasy novel which has a fair amount about mentor/mentee|protege relationships. I like it quite a bit-- it's a good strange invented world with something close to golden age pacing. And a courtroom drama.

People are calling it steampunk, but it isn't Victorian at all.

Would the gnomes care for some home made beef vegetable soup?

Dave Bell, my condolences.

Dave Bell, my condolences. Even when you know the end of that road is coming quickly. it's a shock. Good luck with moving into the next part of your life.

nerycellist, I'm sorry. You and Ardala have been through so much, and she has always sounded like an excellent, if highly opinionated dog. What you are having to plan is awful and heart-breaking, but it is not callous and cruel. That would have been abandoning her at the first sign of a problem that wasn't easily fixed, and I know you never considered that.

Dave Bell @359, my sincere condolences.

Dave Bell, add my condolences to the others'.

Dave Bell @ 359: My condolences. I don't think there's ever a good time, but I hope you can find some comfort in rememberance of a long life, well lived.

Thinking of you.

Dave Bell, sending sympathy to you and your brother.

Dave Bell #359: My condolences.

Dave Bell #359: My condolences.

Dave Bell #359: My condolences.

Dave Bell @359: My condolences.

Dave Bell @359:

I'm sorry for your loss. He had a good innings, and he clearly left the world at least one interesting and worthwhile person richer than he found it. But I know that's probably scant comfort right now.

I'll keep him, and everyone who misses him (but you especially) in my prayers.

Nerdycellist, you did the best you could with the cards you and Ardala were dealt. I sorrow with you.
(I'm still missing singing Tao home each evening.)

Dave Bell, my condolences...good thoughts and prayers headed your way.

Dave Bell, my condolences.

nerdycellist, my sympathies.

Thinking good thoughts for all concerned in both cases.

Dave 359: I'm sorry for your loss, Dave.

My condolences, Dave.

Condolences from here too, Dave Bell.

Dave, I am very sorry to hear of your loss.

Sorry to hear the news Dave.

Dave Bell: My condolences and sympathies. May his memory be a blessing.

I'm sorry for your loss, Dave, and your impending loss, nerdycellist.

May you find comfort.

I'm sorry for your loss, Dave. I'll keep you and yours in my prayers.

Dave B., #359: My condolences on your loss. May he be remembered well.

and @360: Your last sentence has caught the crux of the problem. We don't just have regulatory capture here, we have media capture as well. Hiring someone even to delete/block the obvious spam (let alone a decent moderator) cuts into profits and therefore is a "waste of money".

Nancy, #362: Interesting. We may be seeing the development of a new genre here. Based on the cover art and the description, that book definitely evokes the steampunk feel, but it's pure fantasy rather than alternate-history.

Dave and nerdycellist: My condolences.

Wyman @ #354 – I don’t know how I would have dealt with the rage in your cat’s situation. When I was growing up, my family’s last kitty, Spot, went missing for a couple of days – or so we thought. He was actually hiding underneath the sustain pedal on the piano; he had foolishly wandered into a neighbor’s yard and was mauled by their Irish Setter. Despite the fact that we were pretty poor, and Spot was an “unwanted” stray that my parents up until then had begrudgingly tolerated, they took him to the vet and managed to save him. He was terribly timid for his next 19 years. I hope Ardala doesn’t harass him too much when she meets him – she is a great lover of cats.

Lizzy L @#330 (and others) – thanks for the encouragement. I called the vet’s office and it was exactly as you had said. The receptionist had two choices at the ready, and was happy to provide them. She asked after Ardala, and sympathized, and did not make me feel lousy or get the vet on the phone. It helped I think that she had Ardala’s chart in front of her. We have made an appointment for 8am on Saturday, after a nice breakfast and a long wagon ride.

A little more info on our decision is here.

nerdycellist: It's always so hard to let them go, even when you know it's right. Ardala is surely loved, and loves you back.

Dave B: I'm sorry for your lost.

@362 Nancy Lebovitz

I'd buy it just for the cover, which has an actual female, standing properly, fully dressed, and who is not white!

I picked up the Kindle sample for Three Parts Dead a while back, liked it quite well, and then...got distracted by something, I imagine, because I should've gone ahead and bought the book. I have now done so, and that's something for me to read on the flight tomorrow while I'm off to Fourth Street Fantasy. Thanks for the reminder!

I think it was here that I saw the rec for the Avengers fanfic about Captain America being arrested for painting "graffiti" -- a badly-needed crosswalk at a dangerous intersection.

Life imitating art, to our diminishment. The city fined the guy $15,000, sent him to prison, and removed the crosswalk.

Lee, I have a question. What the hell is wrong with those people?!?

I suspect I know, now that I've thought for a few minutes. Vallejo is more concerned about not delaying traffic than about the safety of pedestrians.

Xopher, the crosswalk was illegal in various ways. There's another one on the other side of the intersection, properly marked. Going out with a bucket of white paint from the hardware store and doing it yourself is a really bad idea. There's paint made specially for marking pavement, and standards for how to do the marking. (There are also signal-controlled intersections, with crosswalks, two blocks north and south of that location.)

My condolences to Dave B. and nerdycellist.

Yeah, so you have to walk two blocks to cross the street. People weren't doing that.

If the nearest safe place to cross the street is two blocks away, the city needs to fix the unsafe intersection, perhaps putting in a light. But they don't care about pedestrians.

Xopher, there are three crosswalks at that intersection, two across the minor street and one across the major street. The fourth side is the one the guy painted - it's a legal crossing, but it isn't a marked crosswalk. (In California, you can cross at any intersection where it isn't marked 'no pedestrian crossing'.) They may decide to put another one at that intersection, but that's for the traffic engineers to decide.

This year, incidentally, the City of Los Angeles has begun restriping their crosswalks as zebra crossings, instead of the two-lines-across-traffic crosswalks. They're certainly easier to see.

P J Evans, #394: All of that makes sense, until you get to the OMGWTFBBQ!!!11!1!!11!!11! over-reaction by the city. $15,000 and prison time? That's just over the top.

I did notice that the guy has a Latino name. I wonder what the city's reaction would have been if a guy named Rick Smith had done the same thing.

*sigh* Well, Vallejo is named for a (Spanish/Mexican) man who was dispossessed of everything he owned in the wake of the Gold Rush. By the accounts I've read, he was gracious about it, as he was in the rest of his life.

It's the sad irony of California that those of Hispanic/Latino descent are treated as the newcomers. Not to mention the natives. Yup, we still have native tribes, something that comes as a big surprise to a lot of people in spite of the fact that we have Indian casinos all over the place. Head, meet sand.

Oooh! Somebody's taken a bunch of lovely maps and overlaid the original meanings of the place names! The Atlas of True Names. I particularly like St. Famous Warrior the Overseer in the Land of the Successor. Land of People with Tall Caps is also pretty good. As is Unfordable River Town. Though they did let "Land of the Stangers" slip through without its R, as evidenced by a later map.

Possibly for overenthusiastic goopiness about a map link. Rainier cherries for the duty gnomes.

399
I hadn't heard of their penalty u8ntil Xopher mentioned it - it looks like they're charging him for all of the cleanup work. (It may help to know that Vallejo nearly went bankrupt a few years back, and is still in bad shape.)

Xopher Halftongue: Jailtime and hefty fines are nuts. I completely agree with you there.

I do understand why the city might oppose a crosswalk. We have a lot of debate about this in Portland. There are several streets outside of the city core that have multiple lanes of fast traffic, and infrequent traffic lights for pedestrians to cross safely. Of course, you're reluctant to walk two blocks to an intersection with a light, especially when you see a bus heading to the stop across the street. People naturally ask for marked crosswalks. Unfortunately, there's some evidence that they cause more injuries because the pedestrians are less paranoid. We assume that the traffic will stop, and all it takes is one oblivious driver not recognizing that the cross walk requires them to stop, and a 35 mph car is hitting a person.

Dave B and nerdycellist, my thoughts and condolences to each of you.

Next month, the last telegram in the world will be sent when India's state-owned telecom company shuts its telegraph service.

The US Navy is also, as older equipment is retired, ending the use of all-upper-case in its official messages. It started over a century ago with the first teleprinters.

THE WORLD CHANGES STOP

B. Durbin @401, I can't zoom in far enough to see if my hometown is called "Stinky Onion" or not...

Cassy B @407--Will Stink Onions do? There's a close-up farther down of that area.

Fidelio @408, yes, "Stink Onions" does nicely; thanks. Didn't see the closeup.

P J Evans@398 : In California, you can cross at any intersection where it isn't marked 'no pedestrian crossing'.

It's years ago now, but when I first heard that not only was there such a thing as "jaywalking" in the US but that it was actually, genuinely, prosecutably illegal (in some states, I guess?), I was incredulous. It just seems so contrary to the whole freedom and independence thing that's supposed to characterise the nation.

Hyperlocal news... Local fan's wife Susan Krinard was told yesterday about an outfit that wants to do an audio version of her fantasy novel "Mist". The book itself is coming out on July 16 from Tor.

Serge, congrats to Sue!

HLN: Area woman, after several false starts, has set her ringtone to the original Doctor Who theme music and the text alert to the TARDIS noise, to coordinate with the decorative TARDIS case the phone now wears. "A pain in the neck, but worth it," she reports.

Sources confirm that the device has been named "Idris".

Rikibeth @ 413... From Elba?

HLN: Area man has just spent week in Netherlands, which are still flat, well-organised, and full of bicycles and cheese.

Exposure to the Dutch language has produced a suggested motto for a Discworld guild of reference librarians: "Zie ook"

Tracie @309: Guinea pig armor for sale.

That is deeply and profoundly silly. They need to do an actually-guinea-pig-head-shaped helmet, though.

Serge: Nope. She stole a Doctor and ran away.

Dave Bell: I'm deeply sorry for your loss.

nerdycellist: one of the responsibilities we take on for our animal companions is making sure of the quality of their lives. Our older dog, Jemma, is almost 16 now. She's partially deaf, and has been blind for a couple of years. Now her hind legs are starting to fail, possibly due to a tumor pushing on her spinal cord. And she's becoming senile, though slowly. It's not yet time to put her down, because she is still happy about mealtimes, and wants to cuddle and be petted some of the time. But we know that she hasn't much time left, so we talked to the vet about what we can expect to see over the next few months. The vet asked us what factors we would use in making a decision, and said she approved of our criteria for the decision, then volunteered to come to our house when the time comes. It helps when the people you need for the information to make decisions like this are on yours and your dog's side.

Action alert for those who think wolves should be allowed to thrive in the United States. Our illustrious Federal Government has proposed taking gray wolves off the Endangered Species list, letting state fish and wildlife agencies "care" for them. Here's how that's done:

For instance, most of the nearly 1,700 wolves surviving in the West lived in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming at the end of 2012. Those states now have recreational hunting and trapping seasons, and in the past two years, nearly 1,200 wolves have been killed. Nearly 400 more were killed for attacking livestock.

I do not understand Obama's environmental policies at all. He claims to be green and then extends more leases to oil companies. Indications are he's about to approve the Keystone pipeline, which won't do Americans any good and may do the Ogallala Aquifer under Nebraska great harm. He's done good things for alternative energy, but he's not raised his voice against fracking or mountaintop removal.

It's a puzzle.

Yo, ladies and germs, want some macadamia nuts?

janetl @404: "all it takes is one oblivious driver not recognizing that the cross walk requires them to stop, and a 35 mph car is hitting a person." So, driver education plus put some serious penalties (prison time for manslaughter) on drivers who knock down and kill pedestrians on cross walks, until drivers do treat them seriously.

dcb: Education and enforcement have a serious lead time, and "punish them harder" has rapidly declining returns.

General: Fans of the Foglios' webstrip Girl Genius may note that they appear to be picking up Chekhov's time machine, or at least poking at it.

Kurt Busiek's "AstroCity" is back.
Yay!

"Ex-Gay" group Exodus International has decided to shut down, and issued an apology for their wrongdoing.

What I like about this is that the apology is a real apology. He acknowledges harm done, accepts the blame, and publicly resolves to change his ways. I believe that in Christian terms this is called "true repentance." I applaud it, without excusing the wrong done in the past.

In fact, the only thing missing here is any statement of intention to make amends to those already harmed. Maybe that's in the full text of the apology, which is too slashdotted to read right now.

The actual text of the apology doesn't speak of making amends, but it goes into a lot more detail about exactly what he's apologizing for.

We only use drones for domestic surveillance occasionally. So really, there is nothing to worry about. And as always, if he is lying, there will be no consequences whatsoever, so you can take his assurances to the bank.

Linkmeister @ 419

I do not understand Obama's environmental policies at all. He's done good things for alternative energy, but he's not raised his voice against fracking or mountaintop removal.

It's a puzzle.

Not if you look at Environmental Policy as separate from Energy Policy. Most people tend to lump them together. When it comes to Energy Sans Environmental, success is dependent on widespread infrastructure and inexpensive delivery of services.

In my recollection of the past, alternate energy was promoted when fossil fuel prices got expensive for the end users. Environmentalists jumped on the band wagon for Cheap Energy is Good, and added Green Energy is Good, Too because it was a two birds with one stone scenario. People could feel good about being frugal and ecologically aware at the same time.

However, young technology is not cheap, so they slowly dropped the cheap in favor of Green Energy is Good Energy. So the perception was an either/or option. Either renewable energy or gas/petroleum/coal based energy.

The real reason that cheap, clean alternate energies failed is that were no widespread, ubiquitous infrastructure elements to deliver the energy to the consumers. (And going "off the grid" had a lot of negative connotations.) So consumers were faced with Cheap/easy or Green/clean/expensive/hard to find.

By encouraging alternate fuels while allowing the expansion of more "traditional" fuels, Obama is trying to replace the either/or option with the both/and option. As in "energy is both cheap and easy and clean and green if that's what you want."

Over time, renewable and alternate energies will continue to develop infrastructure due to grass roots demands from the public consumers. So by the time "green" energy is a fully mature, ubiquitous option, "non-green" (i.e. non-renewable) energy will either be exhausted or out of social and political favor. Due to the law of supply and demand, clean/green energy will probably be cheaper in the not-too-distant future as the oil fields, coal beds and other resource providers get used up.

In short, Obama is not trying to stop the short sighted from running over the edge of the energy cliff. He is giving quiet and meaningful support to those who are very long range thinkers. (I saw an article today where the headline asked "if oil reserves are up, why aren't gas prices going down?" I didn't bother to read the article.)

Something else you might want to consider. The US military is dedicated to replacing around 50% of their fossil fuel dependent operations with clean, renewable fuels in the next decade. It's a goal they're pushing really hard to attain. The military is not doing this to be Environmentally Aware, they are doing it out of necessity for logistics and supply during times of combat and peace. But mostly during combat.

Dave Harmon @422: I know, I know. I just get fed up of the laughable penalties given out to drivers who kill pedestrians or cyclists. I don't step out onto a zebra crossing without checking that the drivers are indeed stopping, even though it's a legal requirement for them to stop if I've put my foot on the crossing. I've also noticed, as a runner, that drivers are less likely to stop for me on a zebra crossing than they are when I'm walking along in ordinary clothes - as if the fact I'm a runner makes me less of a real person deserving of consideration, for some reason. And I'm fed up of traffic lights which are designed to maximise traffic flow with zero consiedration for how difficult they make it for pedestrians to cross the road. And that's all in the UK, where there's less of a "cars are king" mentality than in the USA...

albatross #426

I am the leader of the FBI!

And a very good leader too!

You are law-abiding folk
And you know it is a joke
To assume I'd spy on you.

We are law-abiding folk
And we know it is a joke
To assume he'd spying do.

Though I have some UAVs
Bought before the spending freeze
That I fly from Ankara to Rome
Manned aircraft is the way
I habitually play
And I never use those drones at home.

What never?

No never!

What never?

Well hardly ever!

Hardly ever launches drones at home!
So give three cheers for that stand-up guy
The virtuous leader of the FBI!
So give three cheers for that stand-up guy
The leader of the FBI!

The F.B.I. Deemed Agents Faultless in 150 Shootings

Including the one where they shot the wrong guy in the head and paid $1.3 million to settle a lawsuit.

Victoria:

I'm convinced at this point that the only way we get green energy is if it's economically a win. Otherwise, the collective action problem among countries is so brutal, and the incentives for any government to defect so strong, that I think we will in practice stick with the cheap energy that continues changing the climate. My intuition is that the best change of having this happen involves funding research into alternative energy, subsdizing adoption, investing in companies--the whole bit, but all focused on giving them a chance to get the price/convenience/erc to the point where they're competitive with fossil fuels. I wonder if the Obama administration's policy is driven by that same idea, combined with a desire to boost the economy short term. If you think that fossil fuels will win unless non-fossil-fuels get cheaper and better, there is no point in pushing back on fossil fuels till the alternatives get better--the next administration will just reverse you, and even if they don't, most of the rest of the world will go with the cheap fuel.

As an aside, we won't run out of coal anytime in the next couple centuries, and coal is the worst of the fossil fuels for CO2 emissions, so we can't assume that running out of supply will drive us to non-CO2-emitting energy sources. Not remotely in time. If we burn coal for the next couple centuries, and then shift to cleaner fuels, we will have long since done massive stuff to the climate and ocean pH, with God knows what results,

HLN: Local author is finally granted glimpse of the cover mock-up for her first novel. Continuous squeeing[1] has commenced.

[1] Actually, I think that's just the tinnitus, which tends to get worse when I'm putting in 15-hour days at work under stressful deadlines.

Heather Rose Jones: Congrats! Out of curiosity... how close is your first glimpse to your scheduled release date? I haven't seen my cover art yet, and I'm getting predictably antsy.

Dave Bell @ #406

Oh Noes! Does this mean I have to hang up my heliograph?

Serge Broom @423: While I strongly share your "Yay" I find myself curious why you're celebrating two weeks late.

From what I hear, they've built up a year's worth of lead time, so it should remain monthly for a while even if Kurt's health takes another turn for the worse. (And now I need an atheist version of "God forbid". Any suggestions? "Touch wood" doesn't really work for me.)

(Oh, and "Astro City", two words.)

Heather Rose Jones @ 432... Squee!

Steve Broom @423 and David Goldfarb @435,

What is Astro City?

Cassy

David Goldfarb # 435... Number One has been out for two weeks? Glad to hear because it means I'll have to wait for only two weeks for Number Two of "Astro City"! And I hope Busiek stays healthy, for his own sake.

Balls of Tungsten Steel Award for Courageous Photography goes to the motorcyclist who turned around to take photos of the timber wolf chasing him on a B.C. highway:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/14/banff-motorcyclist-pursued-by-massive-grey-wolf-along-stretch-of-b-c-highway-takes-pictures/

David, how about "may it not be so!"?

439
I'm impressed. Maybe the wolf thought it would be a nice toy....

Several years ago there was a survey of what fictional protagonist you'd want on your side in case of emergency. The final voting was MacGyver, Indiana Jones; John McClane; James Bond and Jason Bourne (tie); and Lara Croft and Jack Bauer of 24 (tie). I remember that Bond and Bauer's presence kicked off a discussion online of who you wouldn't want, not because they were incompetent but because your odds of survival would go into the dumpster. (Croft was an edge case: lots of dead NPC's, but nothing like the Bond/Bauer death toll.) I can't find that discussion so I thought I'd solicit opinions here.

Mind you, this has nothing to do with the character competence in solving the mystery/adventure/what have you. This has to do with your chances to walk out of it intact at the end.

I'd argue that Number 1 would be Master Li, assuming his body count each case has remained steady since age 20 or so. There are reasons that Number 10 Ox is telling the stories, namely who else could take the pounding and live? Associates of the old man tend to die at an alarming rate: the good news is that what Simon Templer called "the Ungodly" tend to die even faster.

Number 2 would be a team since they don't work separately: the Lovely Angels. (This is a plot point in one of the movies. The head of the group hiring them says, approximately "If we do nothing everyone on the planet will die. If we hire the Dirty Pair, some may survive by accident.") Both are competent and they do solve their cases, but they are the poster girls for Collateral Damage.

Number 3 would be Nero Wolfe. I used to think The Continental Op should be in this position but while the body count is high in his stories, when it comes to deaths by association the Op has nothing on Wolfe. (At this point someone is going to bring up Red Harvest. I say Thppppth at you.)

(And while you're at it, let's skip the George RR Martin, Joss Wheadon, and Scott Lynch character jokes. Thank you.)

Number 4 would be Lovejoy from the books: the knowledge that whoever kills me in the process of getting the McGuffin will be killed by "accident" and much hand-wringing is not as much comfort as not being killed at all.

Number 5 would be Richard Wentworth, AKA The Spider. The Shadow (too many identities to list) is damn careful about those on his side, as is Richard Henry Benson (The Avenger) and Doc Savage, but The Spider is kill-crazy, and unless you're his servant or his girlfriend or the police chief that wants to put him away he's perfectly willing to ventilate anything and anybody in the pursuit of whatever dieselpunk mad scientist is at work. This is the pulp character that needed a human head to beat a villain and went looking for a jaywalker to contribute one.

Number 6 would either be Ripley or Ash. They're opposite ends of the same spectrum: both are willing to improvise as necessary, but one is smart and the other is dumb as a box of rocks. (Mr. Ripley is a different kettle of fish. Involving him is like involving 4Chan, and for similar reasons.)

Any other suggestions?

Cassy B. @437: Astro City is my favorite superhero comic book of the last two decades. You can try out the first couple of issues at comixology.com. (In digital format, natch.)

Bruce Durocher: The Doctor should probably be on that list, particularly his fourth incarnation.

Xopher Halftongue @440: That's not bad; Ursula Le Guin's "Avert!" has also come to mind.

Rikibeth @ 433

Heather Rose Jones: Congrats! Out of curiosity... how close is your first glimpse to your scheduled release date? I haven't seen my cover art yet, and I'm getting predictably antsy.

My publication date is next February. I don't know what that means in the grand scheme of things. I imagine that publishers vary considerably in how things get scheduled between contract and appearance. Especially the smaller publishers.

I love the cover design (and have made it the wallpaper on my iPhone). It's a trifle more on the "romance" side of the equation than what I pictured in my head but that's probably entirely appropriate since it will be marketed much more as a romance than as a fantasy/adventure. And they took my idea of designing a concept that can carry over across the several planned books in the series with changes in focal image and color scheme. When it's more finalized I presume I'll be able to get permission to plaster it all over my social media.

Bruce Durocher @ 442: Harry Flashman tops the list for me. He'd sacrifice _anyone_ (except possibly his darling wife) to get out of whatever bind his author had put him in. And he was the sole survivor of many a battle...

David @444

My family has an "Avert!" gesture ritual: touch the end of your right thumb to your tongue, press the thumb into the palm of your left hand, and then "stamp" that palm with the side of your right fist. I suspect that it originally involved spitting into the palm, rather than transferring a small amount of saliva via the thumb. I believe my mother learned it from her father, who was born in the 1890s, and grew up, as an orphan, largely raised by his own grandparents, so it may be a 19th century thing, possibly Welsh in origin. Or not.

#442 ::: Bruce E. Durocher II

I'd put Modesty Blaise and Jack Reacher (who might make an interesting team) on the list of people I do want.

And as for the people I might not want, #430 ::: Jim Macdonald, are there historical examples of out-of-control law enforcement organizations being made into something safe for the general public?

There are definitely variations between publishers! My book is supposed to come out in August and I haven't seen it yet. This is making me nervous because I'm supposed to be able to ask for a revision if I hate it, I think...

It might make a difference that this is a digital-first publisher.

I'm antsy because the cover artist's usual style is very suited to paranormal and BDSM romance themes, but I don't know how well it will carry over into a historical whose nontraditional aspects aren't visible in the characters' costumes (how well are they going to DO the clothing?) and the only real cue should be the three happy people on the cover instead of two.

Cassie B... "Astro City" is a comic-book that takes a different approach. It doesn't go for realism. It doesn't follow the cliches unthinkingly. It embraces the conventions and situations of the genre, but it turns them on their heads. For example, it had one tale about the "Lois Lane hounds Superman to prove he's Clark Kent" with a bittersweet ending.

I'm feeling vaguely bummed.

The local, not-terribly-good paper, The Oregonian, is firing dozens of people and cutting back on home delivery to three days a week. (But they're including the Saturday edition with the Sunday paper.)

Not having a paper to start reading in the morning, with comics and light news sections left for the evening, seems terribly wrong. I've been reading daily papers for most of the last 35 years, starting with Newsday and then the New York Times and the SF Chronicle.

There will be an online daily Oregonian, but . . . ah, fiddlesticks.

Sigh. Grump. Fssssht.

Bruce Durocher at 442: Miles Vorkosigan, Buffy Summers, and a gentleman from Scotland named Francis Crawford.

Stefan Jones @ 451: I'm sad about The Oregonian, too. Can't claim that they've been one of the top papers, but they've had some fine moments. Do you remember when they brought down the vicious immigration manager at the airport? He was throwing foreign travelers into jail for no good reason. When the con artist Sizemore ran for governor, it was the paper that turned over all the rocks about his past business dealings. I loved them when they put an editorial on the front page to oppose the "Oregon Citizen Alliance" ballot initiative that attacked gay rights. They won the Pulitzer as recently as 2007. We need the resources of journalism to give the bloggers something to link to!

It's gotten thinner, and thinner, but at least once a week I've learned something about my town from the paper that I didn't hear on Oregon Public Broadcasting radio, or see online.
Maybe it will survive in this 3-days-a-week and online mode, but I think our community has been diminished.

One of the things I've missed from local new sources is reviews of the theater. It used to be that I'd look for information about a play, and find well-written reviews in the Oregonian and in Willamette Week. Not so much now.

Lizzy L @ 452: I was thinking that Miles did well by his team, too.

Bruce Durocher @ #442, Wolfe? Really? Goodwin, Panzer, Cather and Durkin lived through the last one of Stout's novels.

A few victims knew he was on their side before their death, but he didn't lose too many clients to murder.

A really thoughtful and interesting piece on surveillance and consensus reality at Interfluidity.

This is one of the more thoughtful articles I've read on ongoing surveillance policies, which ties into a lot of bigger questions about how we decide what consensus reality is and who is a nut unworthy of further attention. It strikes me that we almost always evaluate whether someone is sensible or not based on whether what they're saying agrees with consensus reality as received from respectable media and politicians and schools and such, at the time they say their piece, rather than going back later and checking to see whether they were right.

Thus, the boosters of the Iraq invasion got a big boost in respectability during the runup to the war--they were repeating the consensus picture of reality, unlike those un-American shrill moonbats who said there were no WMDs. And later, when it turned out that there really weren't any WMDs to speak of (excepting a few rusting chemical weapons shells), the Iraq war boosters didn't lose any respectability, and the antiwar moonbats didn't gain any.

David 444: Either way, of course, you're acting as if words have power. Which is often a polite fiction, like saying "bless you" when someone sneezes (even though we no longer believe people's souls come out when they sneeze). Otherwise you'd just say "Oh, I hope not!"

Cally 447: Huh, I've seen that as divinatory: you put a substantial amount of saliva in the left palm, and pound it with the right fist; then by which way the spit flies out, you pick your direction (literal or metaphorical).

Gross, I know. And I can not remember where I've seen that. A movie? A TV show? Read it in a book and pictured it in my mind? Pretty sure I've never seen anyone do it in meat space.

Lizzy 452:Similar to what I was thinking, except I didn't think of the guy from Lymond.

David Goldfarb @443: The Doctor should probably be on that list, particularly his fourth incarnation.

Everybody dies! (except the Doctor and his companion)

The Horror of Fang Rock and Pyramids of Mars were a couple of 'good' examples of this.

It strikes me you could make a case for this being a 'Law of Time' (in some storyline other than Doctor Who, because there are too many counter-examples): Time protects itself from time travelers by killing all the witnesses.

Put in the vernacular of the 11th Doctor: "I'm the Doctor ... Run!"

Of course, it would be easier to kill all the time travelers.

For the Annals Of How To Make An Apology: Kickstarter on the "seduction guide".

Impressive example of how to apologize. The only better action Kickstarter could take at this point would require a TARDIS.

Agreed. A sincere and unqualified apology is a rare and beautiful thing.

Here is another, even more impressive and surprising one: http://exodusinternational.org/2013/06/i-am-sorry/

More surprising, but not IMO more impressive. There's no intent to mitigate the harm already caused in that one. He's not donating the money Exodus made to a fund that provides therapy for people damaged by "reparative therapy," for example.

Of course, it would be easier to kill all the time travelers.

Except insofar as they tend to be difficult to kill. Though that may be a function of the fact that they're generally Protagonists.

LInkmeister@455: and indeed, those people were probably a lot younger at the end of the series than they would have been if they had not met Wolfe.

On the other hand, V sbhaq lbhe ynathntr pbashfvat ng svefg, orpnhfr abg nyy gubfr punenpgref yvir guebhtu gur ynfg obbx va gur Oevgvfu frafr bs 'guebhtu'.

The xkcd time thread (movie?) is still going at 2248 frames so far. The site I usually use to look at it is here. Pretty neat.

Andrew M @ #464, I struggled with terminology there trying to avoid a huge spoiler. I remember now that Johnny Keems was a private op working for Wolfe who DID die on the job.

I've been using xkcd.aubronwood.com to follow it. They just had an exciting encounter with a wildcat!

... and managed to get through the remaining Open Threadiness in one long push without getting TOO out of puff. The other threads can wait until I've time and energy.

My child is asleep, and has been for over an hour DAYENU. It is notable that the taxi driver's chosen route from MDW to our house took significantly longer to drive THAN THE PLANE FLIGHT TO MDW FROM YTZ. I would've been significantly miffed if I weren't exhausted. I actually napped some in the cab.

Pluses: I saw several of Toronto's touristy joys that I've missed on previous trips (how, in the OVER 15 YEARS I've been periodically visiting, have I never managed to get to the amusements and trails on The Island before?!?); some conversation time with in-laws I enjoy spending time with; no Uncomfortableness in a familial sense.

Minuses: if organization and get-stuff-done-itude were gunpowder the entire group of 12 couldn't BLOW THEIR COLLECTIVE NOSE WITH IT. Not aided by the 5 members of the party younger than 13. Or the fact that our two-night trip to the Big Indoor Water Park involved severe gastroenteritis by most adults (not my family in any form) the night before the drive and some kind of fever-based illness for two of the kids DURING. So John and I got to be Heroes of the Revolution and take the not-our-kids who were well enough to be rarin' for waterslides, down waterslides, while their parents and grandparents variously cared for the ill, were ill themselves, or slept a lot. And that part I was actually glad to do, other than worrying about coordination and Familial Rules unknown to me whose thwarting I might inadvertently aid.

So it was, as usual for any trip involving my MiL, seven days of fun that may well require more than seven days to recover from.

At least I'm not immediately catapulting into weeks of pre-commitment, unlike all the rest of this month ... I just have a family bat mitzvah to attend tomorrow and some Undelayable Very Important Errands sprinkled through next week. Which should not be missed, esp. not on account of 'falling over recovering from my vacation'.

Sprog had fun, though she was also continually over-tired enough to be right shirty with everyone.

I keep thinking I had things to say about the Old Houses subthread (own one, grew up in one, love 'em), the Astro City adoration (Cassy B.: I own I-think-all the TPBs, which can be loaned to you for the Low Low Rental of ... helping me figure out what box they're in), and Xopher's phone woes (thankfully, many of my Android annoyances are now straightened out, due to a weekend in the company of my BiL), but I can't remember what exactly and I'm still in no way firing on all cylinders.

I'm trying to decide whether I should just go upstairs and try to fall asleep at 8:15PM, or perhaps watch a movie while waiting for post-trip laundry to cycle through the machines?

AKICIML: I did google the question "How do I tell if the cherries on my tree are ripe?", because the mature tree in our yard (which we've never seen fruit before) has bright-red nodules scattered about it. I have no idea if they're meant to mature into DARK-red nodules. They don't currently come off the tree to a judicious tug, and they're kind of squishy-soft-feeling to the touch, not firm-but-yielding-at-the-skin as About.com has led me to believe is desired. Comments welcomed, though I'm probably just going to keep waiting and tugging on them once in a while ...

David Goldfarb: The Doctor should probably be on that list, particularly his fourth incarnation.

I'll take your word on it: I've only seen six or so episodes before the reboot, and those had sets and effects that made Red Dwarf seem lavish. I admit to some curiosity about the Companion who beat a Dalek to death with a ball bat...

Roy G. Ovrebo: Harry Flashman tops the list for me. He'd sacrifice _anyone_ (except possibly his darling wife) to get out of whatever bind his author had put him in. And he was the sole survivor of many a battle...

A strong contender. The major difference being that, from the few Flashman books I've read, Flashman is looking for folks to screw over. I'd left him out because he's a predator. (Well, Master Li is as well, but not towards *everyone*.)

Nancy Lebovitz: I'd put Modesty Blaise and Jack Reacher (who might make an interesting team) on the list of people I do want.

Reacher is probably the only character in adventure fiction (outside of Simon Delicata) that might give Willie a problem. He's smarter that Delicata, however, so Willie's answer for that problem wouldn't really apply. Blaise is an interesting pairing: nobody (at least in Willie's estimation) can match her in defense, and I don't know if even she could match Reacher in offense. None of them are quite in the "doorperson to Hell" category, however.

Lizzy L: Miles Vorkosigan, Buffy Summers, and a gentleman from Scotland named Francis Crawford.

I thought Miles had a pretty low body count for the folks that had hired or employed him. Buffy I don't know about: I've seen about eight episodes total. I thought her group of classmates/assistants/what-have-you weren't snuffed out. Did she wipe out the Watchers or something? Francis Crawford sounds interesting from the Wikipedia entry: is he in the "Oh my god, is *he* helping us? Which way is the door?" category?

Linkmeister: Wolfe? Really? Goodwin, Panzer, Cather and Durkin lived through the last one of Stout's novels. A few victims knew he was on their side before their death, but he didn't lose too many clients to murder.

I don't want to get spoilery, (PLEASE SKIP THIS PARAGRAPH TO AVOID NERO WOLFE SPOILERS) but if you count what happened to his real and false relatives, the person Fritz made cookies for, the woman that came to the house for the orchid viewing that sounded Archie out, the woman Archie left in the office to see if Wolfe was available, the man who liked Jordan Almonds, the woman who moved the dictaphone cylinders, the woman Archie removed the hat and coat for...he's hell on the survival of clients and the close relatives of clients. (Wolfe may have bellowed "I will not have my office converted into an anteroom for the morgue!" but it happens enough to make one wonder if he has a timeshare in Cabot Cove.) Keems was a Wolfe employee at the time of his difficulties, but Orrie was not at the time of the last book.

I can't cook like Nero Wolfe, but I used to have a copy of The Nero Wolfe Cookbook that I had to sell to get busfare home...

Elliott Mason, glad you're back in one piece, and that you didn't come down with The Ick!

Follow-up to Old Houses: my dad's opinion is that the shower needs no more than a new bead of caulk around the tub, and possibly repair of some hairline cracks in the grout, but the electrical system, unfortunately, is pre-Romex, and not amenable to any amateur improvement. At least there's a breaker box.

I shudder to think of what an electrician will charge. It's definitely not happening yet.

Elliott Mason, glad to hear the vacation was mostly good, though tiring.

We've never had a cherry tree, but my impression of such things is that they're ripe about the time the birds eat all of them.

Elliott:

In anticipation of a board games night at a pie-making friend's place (which got rescheduled due to some family stuff on their part), I've picked a pint or two of cherries off my sour cherry tree. Want them? Note: I don't have a pitter; I've just stuck them in a covered bowl in the fridge.

I don't know what breed it is, but on my sour cherry tree if I pluck the lipstick-red cherries firmly, they release from their stems. If the stem comes with, it's not ripe yet.

Anyway, if you want, I can pluck some more cherries tomorrow. I've got nothing else scheduled for Sat. You'll have to tell me how to treat them and what to do with them, though.