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In the Boston Globe:
Fan fiction has long been a part of Debra Doyle’s life.In high school, she concocted imaginary stories spun off of the original “Star Trek” series and handed the printed pages to her friends. Then after spending several years writing for academic purposes while getting her doctorate in Old English from the University of Pennsylvania, Doyle re-engaged her creative writing muscles by returning to fan fiction. Later, when she lived in Panama with her husband, James Macdonald, while he served in the Navy, they wrote fan fiction together inspired by “Star Wars.”
“I always wanted to be a writer,” says Doyle, 54, who lives in Colebrook, N.H. “Really there wasn’t that much of a distinction when I got started with fan stuff and other stuff. It was pretty much things that I wrote.”
So for Doyle, it wasn’t surprising when she and her husband shifted from fan fiction to original short stories. By 1988 the couple’s first short story had appeared in an anthology about werewolves. Today Doyle estimates that she and Macdonald have co-written more than 20 science fiction and fantasy books for adults and young adults.
Yes, I’m that Macdonald, and Debra Doyle is my beloved wife and coauthor. Our secret shame revealed in the lede of a story in the Globe.
Actually, it’s a non-heinous article. Not a look-at-those-strange-people-aren’t-they-funny piece at all. Observe too our own Patrick, same article:
“I do think that the idea that publishers ‘troll’ fanfic sites is more myth than not,” Patrick Nielsen Hayden, a senior editor at Tor Books in New York, wrote in an e-mail, “but I will say this: If I had lots more spare time, I would.”
Actually, it was yesterday's (10-16) Globe, but as you said. I got busy and forgot to send Doyle a note, because it was one of those rare positive and balanced articles about fanfic, and shows off her and the other writer featured in a very good way. Also the picture of Doyle (how surprised was I to see her beaming from above the fold of the Living section?) was one of the nicest I've seen yet!
Reading the headline in Google Reader, I immediately assumed this would relate to the discovery of a cache of Elizabethan slash fanfic featuring the Capulets and Montagues. Although I am pleased that a decent fanfic piece appeared in a newspaper, I am still bitterly disappointed.
That's an amazingly respectful piece, considering the current state of low-level warfare between the literature establishment and genre fiction. I'm sure a lot of that is down to Doyle and Patrick carefully explaining the background to the reporter; gratitude is in order from all of us. But even so, the reporter who wrote the article, Vanessa Jones, deserves a lot of credit for good journalism, something that's not in great supply these days. Well met and done, all of you.
Naomi Novik, who wrote fan fiction as a teen before having the first book in her "Temeraire" series published last year
I'm very amused by the past tense in this.
Also, nice article.
The weather beaten trail wound ahead into the dust racked climes of the baren land which dominates large portions of the V'ron'n empire. Age worn hoof prints smothered by the sifting sands of time shone dully against the dust splattered crust of earth. The tireless sun cast its parching rays of incandescense from overhead, half way through its daily revolution. Small rodents scampered about, occupying themselves in the daily accomplishments of their dismal lives. Dust sprayed over three heaving mounts in blinding clouds, while they bore the burdonsome cargoes of their struggling overseers.
"Dost thee bite thine thumb at us, sir?", gasped the first Capulet.
"No sirrah, I dost not bitest my thumbst at thou, sirrah, but I bitest my thumb, sirrah." returned Smpsn.
Very nifty. Will print this out to read while I'm out today.
JDC: I would dearly love to read that. So much that I think I'm going to write it.
Did PNH really say "troll" or was it "trawl"?
How refreshing and pleasant! I've always liked best the notion that writers are writers, and 'fanfic' or 'genre' or 'Biography of Ferdinand de Saussure' is just what the writer is doing, not what the writer is. Good writing is good writing, regardless.
So good to see such a balanced article. Congrats!
Looks like someone sent Fark the article; they've posted a link on their site to it with a funny description: http://www.fark.com/
Trolling is, in fact, a fishing technique, just as trawling is. They are different techniques, however. Trolling involves hooks; trawling involves nets.
I would expect Patrick to use a hook rather than a net. Though a spear even moreso.
Joel,
Flip your thous and thees. Thou performest an act, the act is received by thee. Also, thy = your and thine = yours (i.e. Those art thy shoes; Those shoes art thine).
Dost thou bite thy thumb at us...
I dost not bitest my thumb at thee...
I bet you knew all of that, but the Shakespeare nerd in me could not resist. Rather, I could not resist the Shakespeare nerd in me.
Shouldn't that be "I do not bite..."? Or for extra Jacobean flavor, "I bite not"?
While I join the congratulations to Debra, I'd like mostly to congratulate the Globe on doing actual journalism, which is (as Bruce said in 5) rare these days.
CosmicDog 15: I'm more than sure you realize that Joel was parodying the screamingly-wrong pseudo-archaic English committed by many fanfic writers, and that you yourself are parodying something, but I, too, am unable to resist:
'Thine' is used predicatively, as you state, but also attributively before a vowel: "thy lady," but "thine own lady." In that period 'my' and 'mine' are also governed by sandhi in the attributive position, which is why it's "in the presence of mine enemies" in the KJV.
The '-st' ending is second person. *"I dost" is incorrect. It's "I do not bite" just as in Modern English.
In regard to #6: I've just recently realized, finally, who Naomi Novick is in fandom; since she's long been on my fannish "read any by" list, I must go out and start reading her hard-copy.
I'll add my voice to the chorus of congratulations. It's nice to see a newspaper article about something I have at least passing knowledge about that does the topic proud.
That is really awesome! Great article. I am humbled to be such company :)
The V'ron'n Empire was a thousand miles of hot, blasted land. No one but the V'ron'n knew the secrets of survival, the nooks that hid tiny pools of water, the plants that gave protein, the way of the circle snake and the red raven.
In other worls, it was desolate in the exact same way the lush lands of the Amazon weren't.
How refreshing and pleasant! I've always liked best the notion that writers are writers, and 'fanfic' or 'genre' or 'Biography of Ferdinand de Saussure' is just what the writer is doing, not what the writer is. Good writing is good writing, regardless.
The real challenge would be to write a fan-fic genre Biography of Ferdinand de Saussure, specifically about that time he and I stayed up late one night talking about linguistics with a vampire.
Finally got to read the article. Nice to see an article about fanfiction that isn't all "get a life."
22: Good idea. Get writing! (After all, who better to investigate Words of Power than a linguist?)
"Noam," he rasped. "My old friend. So shall we face each other at last?"
Chomsky stepped cautiously on to the bridge, his cutlass steady in one hand. "When I first read your 'Course in General Linguistics', I was but a student. Now I am the master, Ferdinand."
Ferdinand's stocky companion stepped into the lamplight. "Foolish child. I will tear your tongue from your mouth and watch as you try to interpret your own screams."
"Quiet, Roland," the white-haired Swiss snapped. "You shall have your fun soon enough."
Where da Debra Doyle Buffy fanfic at?
I wrote a lot of crap when I was getting my creative writing degree. A LOT of AWFUL AWFUL prose intended for an audience as typical as any academic creative writing workshop.
I recently dug through my old files for old novel ideas (this morning). The first "good" writing I did, and the best early short stories, were fan-fic for a Multi-User Dungeon (MUD) I played in the days before MMORPGs.
The audience was out to support authors, not out to rip their prose apart, and I wasn't worried about being important. I was worried only about being entertaining, and being read.
It was what pushed me off the plateau of wannabe into that next level where I was selling stories and a book.
Just my three paragraphs to add to the discussion.
You folk are going to be the end of my financial discipline -- I already own a number of Jim and Debra's books, so I said to myself, I said, Uhmmm? Naomi Novik, check Amazon why don't you?. So there are now four books winging their way to the Skyedreams household...
Oh well, my birthday was last week. Happy Birthday, me!
I've been thinking about doing some Ekumen/Bitchun Society crossover fanfic.
#27 - can't a guy ask a serious question using a crude sense of humor around here? :-)
How about crossover slash fanfic... For example, Kirk/Puck.
Alex 30: Yes, crossovers are my main temptation to fanfic as well. Like the one where a little kid comes through the Stargate and runs up to Vala saying "Mommy!"
And of course, the kid's name is D'Argo Sun-Crichton.
Jon Sobel #31: No, no, no, I was backing you up. For serious, where da Debra Doyle fanfic at?
#34 - cool - I miss Buffy - recently re-viewed seasons 1-3, now taking a break to watch Freaks and Geeks - an incredibly well-done show (with amusing sf-geeky content) that only ran for one season - then back to Buffy soon.
re 29: four? (Checks Amazon) Must call bookstore....
Kirk: And what country, friend, is this?
Chekov: Keptin, it is Illyria.
(Alarums, off.)
And we are discovered!
Kirk (Opening communicator): Commander Scott,
By thy good graces we may yet be saved.
We call thee, with most urgent plea,
So thou might direct thy sparkling beams,
Seek us out upon this hostile shore,
And in the merest n;inking of an eye,
Restore us to the safety of our mighty argosy.
Being us to that haven, cup us in that saucer,
So that our Enterprise may keep its prize;
Return to its bosem both most puissant Captain
And his gallant crew. So that,
In Mother Russia, and each our native lands,
No mourners weep for bones on alien sands.
(Exuent)
Also, the slash fan-fic with noam chomsky sent large cornbread crumbs across my keyboard in explosive laughter, and now my shift buttons are both jammed with cornbread.
totally worth it1
good job1
It occurs to me that, if Shakespeare were alive today. he might very well be tempted to write for Doctor Who.
Or maybe act in it.
#39Dave Bell:
It occurs to me that, if Shakespeare were alive today. he might very well be tempted to write for Doctor Who.
Or maybe act in it.
He already did. The Shakespeare Code, season 3 (new series), episode 2.
And how nerdy was that? I didn't even lookup the episode guide on Wikipedia.
Keith @ 40... And Martha complained about his breath when he tried to kiss her goodbye.
jmmcdermott, your situation in #38 brought this xkcd cartoon irresistibly to mind. This may be a record for the earliest mention of it in a thread where it's not referenced in the post.
Alas, my attempt at referential humour by adding in a mouseover title field to the link has been stymied by the comment code-stripping function. You all will just have to imagine some witty remark.
(Serge; "in some perfumes is there more delight"?)
Not to mention containing this immortal bit of dialogue:
Doctor: You can flirt later!
Shakespeare: Is that a promise?
Doctor: Oh...57 academics just punched the air.
I giggled for hours!
Might I request Jim write a bit of Gerry Anderson's 1980 fanfic?
"We hope you don't find your daughters mutilated...by UFOs!"
It's a wonderful episode.
OK, so the monsters might not be the best, but I'd happened to watch In search of Shakespeare a few weeks previously--he's a lot more interesting than the standard view of my schooldays--and it's filled with blink-and-you'll-miss-it detail. It's not just that they were able to shoot in the Globe Theatre, it's that they made Shakespeare real.
Jon #35: I assume that you're reading the comic? There's some great Faithy stuff going on right now...
Topically: The only fanfic I've ever been tempted to write is Star Trek fic about how awful it must have been to be Yeoman Rand. A few weeks ago I had a brilliant idea for the story, but, alas, it has gone.
I've also never, ever read fanfic (of the non-professional variety, that is), mainly because of the hugeness of the selection. I'm no good at starting things (hence my constantly asking where to start with things like Doctor Who and Lovecraft), but once I'm started, I'm damn good at being obsessive.
Congrats, Debra, James, Patrick, and the Globe!
Dave, I bow in appreciation of your "Beam us up, Scotty" sonnet.
Ooh, excellent article, and a strong point made that writers are writers, and fanfic =/= parasitism.
Lee Goldberg's head may explode.
-Barbara
I'm very amused by the past tense in this.
Me too. I can see why she doesn't want to bruit about her current stuff too much, given she now has to deal with the folks what owns the IP, but it does amuse.
The thing that amused me most about that article was Livejournal making it onto the list of "fan fiction websites." True, that's where most of fandom lives these days, but that's hardly the site's primary purpose, obviously.
It has a sort of bitter irony to me, considering that a lot of fan writers/artists (including all of my immediate circle) moved away from Livejournal a few months ago in disgust at the administration's unfriendliness toward fandom.
I've also never, ever read fanfic (of the non-professional variety, that is), mainly because of the hugeness of the selection.
Ethan: All you have to do is ask. ::smiles cheerily::
Because the fic world is so large, there are these things called "recs pages". Like this one. Or this one. Both of those links are to sites that recommend stories in a variety of fandoms, including literary, and cover both romance (heterosexual and not) and plotty stories. The labeling isn't that confusing, so long as you know what "het", "slash", and "gen" mean.
Some of the stuff linked to on those pages is of astonishing quality, and all of it will at least meet the test of not making your eyes bleed.
Any good non-slash fanfic about Harcourt Fenton Mudd?
Hi. This is my first post here, but it resonated with me so much that I thought I'd dip my foot in.
(I'm Serge's wife, by the way, for those of you who know him.)
I also started out with fanfic, and this led directly to my writing my first novel. I'd written a number of unfinished short fanfic stories, never having even considered publishing them. In my younger years, I didn't even know one COULD publish them.
Then I helped produce (and did artwork for) a Beauty and the Beast fanzine (I'd become active in that fandom.) I found that all that reading (primarily F&SF) I'd done since my childhood had resulted in a natural ease with writing a real, finished story. And while it attracted no particular attention, a friend involved in the publishing industry read it and suggested I try writing a romance novel.
So, in spite of my utter ignorance of romance novels, I did. I created a werewolf hero (ubiquitous now in the romance genre, but mine was one of the first back then, and WAS probably the first non-cursed werewolf in the genre.) I managed to sell it on the second try (the first publisher didn't do contemporaries at the time, and found a werewolf hero a little too strange.)
I made lots of mistakes early in my career. But writing fanfic wasn't one of them, and if I had time, I think I'd still really enjoy it.
Funny that you should mention Dr. Who and Shakespeare. I was just reading that David Tennant will be playing the lead role next year in the Royal Shakespeare Company's production of Hamlet. And, none other than Patrick Stewart will be playing Claudius opposite him.
So, there's a nice fanfic crossover setup there: The Doctor stabs and poisons Picard.
(Also, Stewart has said he'd like to appear on Dr. Who at some point. I hope they make that happen.)
Jon @ 35,
I have to concur with Ethan (@ 46), the Buffy Season 8 comic book has been outstanding... not only good art that is very reminiscent of the show, but the writing and plot are very, very faithful (no pun intended). I'm not sure I wouldn't rather have another season on T.V., but the comic has been an awful lot of fun!
Joe J @ 54... The Doctor stabs and poisons Picard.
And if you watch the first Elizabeth movie that Cate Blanchett was in, you'll see Christopher Eccleston as Norfolk, and Daniel Craig as a monk/hitman. The Doctor and James Bond.
Ruth, if that was a sonnet it was by accident. I was thinking more of the plays, which are mostly a little less tight.
SueinNM 53: (I'm Serge's wife, by the way, for those of you who know him.)
Those who do not know Serge do not read these comment threads. You are the famous "She Who Must Not Be Named" he's told us so much about! (I'm kidding. He speaks very highly of you.)
Congrats to everyone for the Boston Globe nod.
And we're doing recs now, are we? This gem of a crossover fanfic by Christine Morgan, Harry Potter and the Eagle of Truthiness, has been on my brain today because of Stephen Colbert's announcement that he's running for president. It's one I often point out to people who've never read fanfic before.
There's good fanfic out there. And then there's pure genius.
xopher @ #58, Serge has morphed into Rumpole? Oh dear, oh dear.
Linkmeister, no, that's She Who Must Be Obeyed. He Who Must Not Be Named was V*ld*m*rt, if I'm not mistaken. This is crossover Rumpole/Potter fanfic, with Serge's wife as Sue, the WordMage Who Must Be Obeyed, At Least By Serge If He Knows What's Good For Him. :-)
This idiotic comment brought to you by Those We Don't Speak Of, who remind you to wear yellow when walking through the woods.
#59: I'm only on line 100 or so, and already I need a new keyboard and an emergency room trip to stop the coughing fits ...
Dare I go on?
I'd like to stand up and be counted as someone who learned to write through fanfic. There's some quotation about writers having a million words of garbage to get out before they write anything worthwhile (I want to say it's George Bernard Shaw but he's my default quotation source so I'm probably wrong) and what better way to get those million words out of the way than writing for fun and an audience?
(And often a demanding one, at that.)
cofax #51: Thanks! I will peruse.
SueinNM #53: So you do exist! It's a pleasure.
Being 100% ignorant of the romance field, I had no idea that werewolf heroes happened. Pretty cool.
Jenna @63: I'm using blog comments to get my million words of garbage out...
Cofax, well, there's this one too, although it began mostly as a BtVS collection.
SueInNM @ 53... Remember that CJCherryh fan group thru which we met? If I'm not mistaken, CJ had gently asked that no literal fanfic be written, and instead suggested that people should write their own version of what it was in her stories that appealed to them. You may not know it, but that's what you wound up doing with Kinsman's Oath, if I am to believe a comment that Canadian writer Elisabeth Vonarburg made to me. And one could say that James Tiptree wrote Star Trek fanfic with short story Beam Me Home, using none of the show's specifics, but going to the heart of it. Fanfic is a love letter.
Thanks for the welcomes to Sue. Her posting her etook me by surprise as much as it did you. As for Linkmeister's suggestion that I had morphed into Rumpole, I prefer thinking that I have turned into Allan Quartermain.
And of course Xopher @ #61 is correct; I confused Rumpole with Voldemort, thereby commingling Mortimer and Rowling. Now there's an idea for fanfic!
Aw! That's a lovely piece and of course without even noticing who posted, I immediately wondered "is it Jim Macdonald they mean?"
I've never written much fanfic although I've played with it. I like reading other people's fanfic if it's filtered -- that is if some system of quality control has kicked in first. Because, I'm sorry but some fanfic sites? My brain starts to bleed out of my ears. I suppose the best can't get highlighted because they'll get hassle?
I should also mention that Teresa's posts on the subject have made me change my view of fanfic quite dramatically.
(er, not Sylvia Li. I can post as Sylvia Wri, if that helps? Or maybe even Aivlys.)
Also, to balance the blowing my own horn aspects of my last post, may I point to The Crack Van, a Live Journal multi-fandom recs community; go to the memories for the entire range of stories sorted by fandom.
Doyle, may I post a link to your fanfic?
I suppose the best can't get highlighted because they'll get hassle?
Oh, yeah, that's definitely an issue in some places. Which is why Archives =/ Recs Site.
Okay, backing up a bit. There are a variety of different kinds of fanfiction sites. Archives are where the stories actually live. There are open multi-fandom archives, such as Fanfiction.net (which is often referred to as "the Pit of Voles", although there is good stuff there): this is open to all, unfiltered, within certain constraints. This is by far the largest fanfiction site on the net, and as a result it's very hard to find quality stuff there unless you have a guide.
There are fandom-specific open archives, such as Leviathan in the Farscape fandom, or Gossamer in the X-Files fandom. Again, anyone can load a story there, of any type.
There are genre-specific archives, such as Area 52, which is a slash archive for Stargate: SG-1. Otherwise open to all, so long as the content meets the archive's requirements.
Then there are specialty archives, such as Henneth-Annun in the Tolkein fandom, where the story must be approved for quality by other members before it can be posted. Other specialty archives are less or more stringent. This is where you get some bitching about "elitism", because not everyone uses the same definition of quality.
And then there are recommendations sites like the ones I posted above, where someone other than the writers provide links to stories they enjoyed, usually with some commentary about why they enjoyed them. Delicious is beginning to fill in for recs sites in some form, at least for some of us.
Finally, an awful lot of this is taking place on various journaling sites, particularly Livejournal (although increasingly now Insanejournal, Greatestjournal, and Journalfen as well), so now a story might actually constitute a post to someone's LJ (while also posted to an archive), and some recs sites are actually individual or community journals. Additionally, some fandoms have LJ newsletters which compile lists of stories and recommendations and other newsworthy posts on a daily or weekly basis.
Thus endeth my overview of How Creative Fandom Is Organized. ::wipes brow::
Coming in a bit late (being in hospital does that to you), but congratulations!!
Serge #68: With or without Scottish accent?
Fragano @ 75... French, like Christophe Lambert... And why were you at the hospital?
Yay for the positive notice, and I'm very much enjoying the snippets people are writing in the comments.
I just want to point out the existence of a Bard Slash community, where more such stories reside.
Thanks to everyone for the welcome. I'd like to respond indivually, but I am WAAAY behind on the book that was technically due the 15th but will actually be turned in around the 30th because my editor is in Madagascar!
Sue
Serge #68: With or without Scottish accent?
Serge #76: I went in to for a regular checkup, and was bundled into the adjacent hospital thanks to, inter alia, a blood pressure of 70/50. Hospitals are not my idea of fun.
Serge 68: Her posting her etook
Did she post her etook? *looks around* Don't see it.
Fragano @80: Eep!
End-organ perfusion = Good(TM). 70/50 is well into "You walked in here, how, exactly?"
I hope the cause was found and addressed before you had to eat too much hospital "food".
Teresa -- better yet, I'll do it myself: People can go here for a very small archive of the small amount of my fanfic that postdates the age of hardcopy.
(There's not a lot of it; I'm by no means a major luminary in the fanfictional sky.)
For my part, I'm going to plug a Doctor Who zine which a fan-to-pro friend of mine started: Lost Luggage. I think it shares some sensibilities with ML denizens.
Okay, I am curious. I love fanfiction, but I've never read any of Naomi's stuff (that I know of), other then her books (which are really excellent, although I did burn out about half way through the third one for some reason that wasn't the author's fault), and now I want to know what fandoms she writes for. Anyone know or willing to tell?
Serge @ 56: And if you watch the first Elizabeth movie that Cate Blanchett was in, you'll see Christopher Eccleston as Norfolk, and Daniel Craig as a monk/hitman. The Doctor and James Bond.
And Galadriel!
Lis Riba beat me to the punch about Bard Slash, but there's a bit more Shakesfic at Shaksper Random. Which is not all about fic, but is generally awesome.
I'm way behind here and in other threads as well, so I'll bundle some comments together. Why oh why can't I read blogs for a living?
Fragano, I hope whatever was wrong has been put right, and doesn't happen again.
Dave Bell @ 37
That was great! Maybe you and ethan can get together to work Yeoman Rand in.
ajay @ 25
My cheeks hurt from laughing. But it does explain some things about Chomsky that had puzzled me.
Linkmeister @ 69
Let's face it, if Voldomort was ever actually tried for his crimes, the only barrister worth getting for his defense would be Rumpole.
SueInNM
I'll say welcome even if I am a rather junior member of the group, but, hey, any wife of Serge's is going to be welcome.
Xopher @ 33
Please, please, I can't wait to hear what Daniel Jackson says.
Xopher @ 81... Curses! Sloppy cut&paste strikes again.
Bruce Cohen @ 86... any wife of Serge's
Hmmm... "The Secret Lives of Serge Maalox" does sound like a best-seller.
Fragano, trust me, you want more BP than that!
Joe J @ #54:
That'll go nicely with the BBC's Hamlet of 1980, which also featured Patrick Stewart as Claudius. No Doctors in it, but three other Time Lords, and a couple of alien monsters.
platedlizard@84: I believe she's written in a number of fandoms, but the ones I best remember are a couple of long Smallville/DCU pieces.
...yup, checking her site, I count 40 different fandoms. And a substantial amount of 2007 era stuff. Considering she's had four commercial novels published in the last two years, she must write at terrifying speed.
Brian Aldiss wrote a letter to the London "Times" the other day. The editor's subhead said "If you write science fiction novels, better deny your genre."
At the Cheltenham Festival Margaret Atwood said that writers “are likely to be compulsive wordsmiths” — presumably a way of saying that writing is for some of us an expression of the life force.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article2664835.ece
Her life would have been more difficult had she not cleverly denied that her early science fiction novels, such as A Handmaid’s Tale, were science fiction. Had she neglected this strategy, there would have been for her no more literary festivals, no more reviews, no more appearances on BBC breakfast programmes.
It is a truth widely acknowledged that SF is not worth consideration by sane minds. ...
Sorry, working link here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/letters/article2664835.ece
And for other Treks and other Elizabethan authors, Avery Brooks will be starring in Marlowe's Tamburlaine next month in Washington DC
John Stanning @ 93... had she not cleverly denied that her early science fiction novels
How do you disguise your story's nature as SF? Presumably by feeding to those who don't know what it is, a definition of it that just happens to exclude SF's elements that are in your story.
"There are no robots in my story, and no spaceships."
Serge: I don't know; I never read it (or, indeed, any Margaret Atwood AFAIR). That's what Aldiss said. Maybe folks here wouldn't think that it's tuly (or falsely) SF at all. Has anyone here read "The Handmaid's Tale"?
We all know that that Ms. Atwood only writes "speculative fiction", because science fiction is about talking squids in space. (David Langford is never going to let her live that one down.)
Back to reality: The Handmaid's Tale is a grade example of distopian fiction. It is no more or less science fiction than Brave New World.
John Stanning @97
I've read it. It's set in a dystopian near-future in "the Republic of Gilead", a theocracy located in what is now the United States of America. There aren't any rockets or spaceships, but I'd say it was science fiction in the proud tradition of such classics of the genre as "1984" and "Brave New World".
Ah!!! But was Brave New World considered to be SF by the Literary Establishment - or by its author, for that matter? I read the book when I was still in high-school (when NASA was still flying Apollo missions) and it most definitely is SF. But Literature said otherwise. I think their reasoning went...
If it's SF, it can't be good. If it is good, it can't be SF.
That's why I stay away from mainstream people like Atwood who come in, take our stuff and don't acknowledge where it comes from.
Brian Moore cut his teeth on paperback pulps, before writing his "first novel," _The Lonely Passion of Judith Hearn_. The other things simply weren't considered as books.
I find that funny, but suppose it has repercussions as to awards, placement in bookstores, etc. But then it didn't seem to hurt Doris Lessing with her Canopus books (haven't been brave enough to crack those!)
#98 talking squids in space
A noble phrase which inspired Vonda McIntyre to create a website devoted to the concept:
Betsey Langan #82: Thanks. My nephrologist thinks I've been overmedicated. I'm now under instructions to drink more fluids (a lot more) and watch my blood pressure closely.
Hospital 'food'. Not yum. Nor the people who kept waking me up and told me they were there to help me to sleep.
Bruce Cohen (SpeakerToManagers) #86: Thanks. I hope so.
Serge #87: I shall try.
Fragano @ 104... Please do. If you don't, we'll send a Talking Space Squid Squad to pay you a visit.
The Handmaid's Tale is so patently sf that it could stand in for one of the unwritten novels preceding If This Goes On in Heinlein's Future History sequence, if those novels had been written by a mid-to-late twentieth century Canadian feminist instead of an early-to-mid twentieth century American ex-naval officer.
In fact, it would take a great deal of argument to convince me that Atwood had never read the Heinlein novel in question at some earlier point in her career.
Serge #89: Starring Christophe Lambert as Serge Maalox?
I'd call both The Handmaid's Tale and Brave New World* (the latter which I read for A-Levels back in the Mesolithic)SF. The tropes are classic sciencefictional ones. But I'm no literary critic; I am but an ignorant social scientist.
*I'd also call Island science fiction (the moksha medicine is fascinating).
Maybe I don't understand the market at all, but it seems to me that the rule is that if you start by writing a bunch of normal fiction and then start writing SF stories, you keep the same publisher and therefore you aren't writing SF. But if you start by writing SF and then write something normal, then you still get published by Baen or whoever and your book is still SF no matter what the subject is.
This idiotic comment brought to you by Those We Don't Speak Of, who remind you to wear yellow when walking through the woods.
Didja know there's The Village fanfic? The Pit of Voles (fanfiction.net) has a good couple hundred* instances, mostly of the "Ivy and Lucius get it on" variety.
That movie really, really annoyed me. There was no part of it that was not deeply compromised in some moral, factual or canonical way.
* Not much compared to something like, say, House, which is at 240 pages (at ~30 stories per page) and counting, but not insignificant either. Of course, LotR dwarfs them both.
I've recently been mentally compiling a list of the SF writers who've later been rehabilitated by the mainstream critical world, with the feeling that a list of people who "aren't really science fiction because they're good" would be about as long as a list of science fiction writers, period.
Debra@106: thank you for saying that. I've been thinking it for years and the only time I tried to discuss it, I was told I "did not understand the difference between literature and science fiction." I still don't know it, and I don't expect any argument, however well reasoned by the "correct" literary gatekeeper, to make it clear to me.
However, I'm with Serge. I WILL NOT read an author who borrows freely from science fiction or mystery and then puts the genre down. There's nothing more sour than an ungreateful thief.
Fragano... I'd rather have Hugh Jackman playing Serge Maalox, you ignorant social scientist... If not Hugh, then maybe Doug Jones...
Carrei S @ 110... When I first read your reference to Village fanfic, I thought you were refering to the Village depicted in The Prisoner. As for Shyamalan's movie, I didn't care much for it, but it was better than the one where space aliens who supposedly can move very fast just stand there as a human walks across a room, grabs a baseball bat then hits the alien on the noggin.
Carrie S @ 110... LotR dwarfs them both
Really? I thought LoTR elvates them.
Ow!
I wasn't fast enough to avoid that frying pan.
Emma @ 112... Meanwhile, there are people like mystery writer Walter Moseley. I have never read anything of his, but I understand that he says that his SF indeed is SF. Ther was even an interview with him in Locus where he talks about comic-books.
As for Shyamalan's movie, I didn't care much for it, but it was better than the one where space aliens who supposedly can move very fast just stand there as a human walks across a room, grabs a baseball bat then hits the alien on the noggin
Hey, at least Signs was vaugely internally consistent (it damn well should've been, given where he ripped off a lot of his characterizations from) and didn't feature important characters who were completely morally bankrupt.
I mean, yeah, there was the fast-moving thing at the end, and the concept of anyone pubbfvat gb vainqr n cynarg gung'f 75% pbirerq va n fhofgnapr qrnqyl gb gurz was deeply silly (maybe it was alien extreme sports?), but I wasn't actually sitting in the theater critiquing meta-narrative. Which I did with The Village.
Carrie S @ 117... I don't know if it was the meta-narrative thingie that bored me with The Village. It may have been that I had figured out the Big Secret even before the movie started, because of its title's association with The Prisoner. If I can figure the Big Secret in advance, then it was no Big Secret to begin with.
I had an entirely different reaction: I wasn't bored with The Village, I was pissed off.
Carrie S... Understood. As for myself, I didn't care much for The Village's message, but it didn't make me angry because I didn't care about the movie at all.
Jeez, I didn't know there were any fans of The Village, let alone any fanfic.
Joining the choir of those who guessed the SHOCKING SURPRISE ENDING from the commercial. I didn't bother seeing it. M. Knight Shyamalan is a sham, as far as I can tell.
Oh, and Debra Doyle: Buffy, in the future, in Arkham? I like.
Serge #113: Hmm. Hugh Jackman? Perhaps Jean-Claude van Damme instead?
Apropos The Handmaid's Tale being genre (I always thought of it as dystopian fantasy, even in my English major days): the recent glurge of Jane Austen sequels and other paraliterature is often treated with disdain and horror. How can these authors do such a thing to Jane Austen? the detractors ask. To them, I say: Wide Sargasso Sea. Nobody wrings their hands for Charlotte Brontë over that one, do they? Does Miss Brontë not deserve the same consideration as Miss Austen? (And I'm a much, much bigger Austen fan.)
It's all fan fiction, really. I don't like it when fan fiction, professional or amateur, is condemned on general principles. I'm the first to admit that most of the Austen-related stuff stinks, again, professional or amateur, but there is some that is good and some that is not good precisely, but not offensive and kind of fun. Each piece should be judged on its own merits.
I like to say I got my MFA at the University of Fan Fiction. Writing regularly was the best way for me to improve--and fan fiction gave me so much "scope for the imagination," as Anne Shirley would say. I had (and have) more fannish ideas than I have time to write, whereas before I started writing fanfic, I never had ideas I considered "good enough." I was trying too hard. With fan fiction, toss it out there and see what happens. What does it hurt? It's great practice if you want to improve. Of course, if you're just in it for praise and attention, without a mind to improving and getting better, you can write fanfic for a thousand years and nothing will help you.
Fragano @ 122... Jean-Claude van Damme? Gack.
Mags... Did anyone ever do a crossover between Jane Austen and Lovecraft?
"You loved them in Pride and Prejudice, but Lizzy Bennett and Mr. Darcy will be back in Dread and Jaundice."
Serge #124: I thought you might respond that way!
Fragano @ #126, Maybe you should have suggested Kid Rock or Vin Diesel.
If the "what's the true definition of science fiction" discussion starts as a result of this, I apologize in advance, but it seems to me that A Handmaid's Tale, Island, 1984, and Brave New World are all examples of social science fiction*, and I don't see why that variety should get an exemption from the larger category. Heck, other than the spaceships, why can't the first three books of Foundation be called social science fiction?
*Sociology and psychology practitioners worked pretty hard to get accepted as science.
Serge: Did anyone ever do a crossover between Jane Austen and Lovecraft?
Not that I can recall, though Mags may know of one.
I do have fond memories of Lizzy the Vampire Slayer, though.
Jennifer Barber @ 129... Lizzy the Vampire Slayer
Ah yes. Now I remember someone mentionning that a few months ago.
Mags@123, I actually did scream "But this is just bad fanfiction!" upon reading Wide Sargasso Sea for class. (Er, not to say that it has no literary merit; I just really did not enjoy it. I loathed Jane Eyre as well, which didn't help.)
On Margaret Atwood's SF-shunning: One of my friends went on a magnificent tear a while ago about Atwood's claim that Oryx and Crake was not SF. It's an attitude that really bothers me - Atwood's, that is, not my friend's. She may not have set out to write SF, but she shouldn't be hideously offended when people call it as they see it.
#61 - I've occasionally wondered if the Rumpole stories could be argued as H. Rider Haggard fanfic on that count.
Sarah @ 132... With Leo McKern as Allan Quartermain?
#100
Well, even if it weren't, it would have been hard to deny "After Many a Summer Dies the Swan" as SF (carp guts hold the Secret to Immortality (TM)! But at a hideous price! Also, quasi-Buddhism!).
I love that novel way more than Brave New World.
Carrie 110: I didn't know there was The Village fanfic, no. Unlike you I liked the movie, in part because there were no perfect people in it, but also no one who was entirely reprehensible. (The village Elders came closest, and they did a terrible thing to their descendants, but I found them flawed, not deeply evil. Besides, the movie isn't about them.)
I'm assuming that's the moral compromisation you speak of. Factual? Canonical? Could you elaborate? (I can't even figure out what being canonically compromised would mean, so I'm confused.)
Emma 112: Despite the fact that Atwood is a good writer, I agree. She's a jackhole, and I won't read or buy any more of her books.
Serge 114: They were overconfident and didn't think the baseball bat was a threat. The water thing (as pointed out in Stargate SG-1 and Carrie's 117) was more bothersome. But if you didn't like that movie for that kind of reason, you missed the point of it. That movie was "about" alien invasion, but it was really about the Mel Gibson character's faith journey. It was deeply flawed plotwise, but really solid thematically; this is really typical of Shayamalamalan's work.
(Hey, if Ethan can do it, so can I.)
Speak of the Devil 121: I am one. I quite liked it.
A thought about The Village: I think of it as an ambiguous cautionary tale. The decision the Elders made is not celebrated; in fact the movie beats you over the head with the cost of it. Noah and Ivy pay the highest prices for their parents' crimes; Edward admits to feeling shame for what he did to Ivy.
And what do you think happened after? Do you think Ivy kept the secret? I'd be shocked. The whole thing would crumble in the next generation, because either the Elders would have to let their kids in on the scam (in which case some of them would certainly rebel) or they wouldn't, in which case Those We Don't Speak Of would cease to appear eventually, and the web of lies and fear built by the Elders would collapse.
In fact it would probably collapse much sooner, because at the end of the movie everyone knows that TWDSO can be fought and killed—by a blind girl, no less.
Another viewpoint: it's an allegory. For what, I will leave as an exercise for the reader.
Does anyone really think the Elders were supposed to be the heroes, or that their long-ago decision is supported by the movie? No, IVY is the hero, and she struggles against a lifetime of being lied to, to do what she must to save the man she loves from death.
Xopher @ 135... Oh, the water bothered me more than the bat.
Serge 137: Since the aliens' motives in trying to take Earth are never revealed...think of them as trying to capture a huge weapons depot. Subdue the locals, then bring in the cargo ships and have an endless supply of deadly raw material to win the war back on their home planet.
Xopher... Maybe. I guess the bottom line is that Shyamalan doesn't 'it' for me.
cofax @73: Fanfiction.net (which is often referred to as "the Pit of Voles", although there is good stuff there): this is open to all, unfiltered, within certain constraints. This is by far the largest fanfiction site on the net, and as a result it's very hard to find quality stuff there unless you have a guide.
When I find a good story on FF.net, usually through a rec page, I check the author's favorite stories (and those other authors' favorites). They usually range from good to decent and at the very least I avoid the soul-sucking bad stuff that can be found there. I get the impression that many good stories archived at FF.net were posted before the site became the Pit of Voles.
In my experience, SF written by literary types is distinguished by a lack of attention to the way things work. Take The Children of Men. How, exactly, did all the men on Earth become sterile? It doesn't matter, because the whole flipping book is geared toward that pynffvp angvivgl fprar, ooo, pretty. ARG! I read the whole frelling novel to have the central mystery explained, because, 1. it's SF! That's what we do! 2. She's a mystery writer, for god's sake.
I never read The Handmaid's Tale, because I prefer my feminist diatribes in essay form, but I saw the movie and kept gnashing my teeth over the crazy logical inco
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