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January 28, 2012

But what were they doing in Crobuzon?
Posted by Patrick at 08:46 PM * 146 comments

Have you visited (or lived in!) both $PLACENAME and New $PLACENAME? Extra points for Nova, Nuevo, and other non-English forms of “new.”

Off the top of my head, I’ve been in both:

  • York and New York
  • London and New London
  • Mexico and New Mexico
  • Zeeland and New Zealand
  • South Wales and New South Wales
  • Hampshire and New Hampshire
  • England and New England (okay, a gimme for lots of us)
  • Utrecht and New Utrecht (the latter is just six subway stops south of here)
  • Laredo and Nuevo Laredo (hey, they’re just across the border from one another)
Alas, I have yet to visit Orléans, or Nova Scotia. Anyway, discuss.
Comments on But what were they doing in Crobuzon?:
#1 ::: Constance ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:09 PM:

Amsterdam and Nieuw-Amsterdam I guess doesn't count? But we still have Amsterdam Avenue!

Also Breukelen and Brooklyn, but there's no news there.

:)

Love, C.

#2 ::: thomas ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:23 PM:

South Wales and New South Wales

The intertwined pairs: York and New York and Amsterdam and New Amsterdam

A threesome: Zeeland, Zealand (aka Sjælland), New Zealand


#3 ::: janetl ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:25 PM:

Alas, no, but a friend of mine moved from Portland, Oregon to Portland, Maine, and then back again. Always struck me as the best possible way to produce confusion.

#4 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:46 PM:

I have not lived in Little London (a village in western Jamaica), but I have been there.

I have spent the night in Manhattan, KS (there's a sign on the road from the airport welcoming you to "The Little Apple"). I have, por supuesto, lived in the much better-known Manhattan.

#5 ::: Janet Brennan Croft ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:46 PM:

Though I've been to North Versailles, I've never been to Versailles. And I've never been to heaven, but I've been to Oklahoma.

#6 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:48 PM:

Mexico (well, if Nogales and Tijuana count) and New Mexico.

York (waved on the train on the way by) and New York (on a layover to Europe).

England and New England.

I've been to France and thought I remembered a town/city named New France in the Midwest, but Google says no.

#7 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 09:54 PM:

England and New England
Scotland and Nova Scotia

#8 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:03 PM:

Linkmeister #6: I suspect that the number of people who have been to both France and New France (the Canadian province of Quebec) is pretty large. I'm among them.

#9 ::: Avram ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:14 PM:

I once met the new boss, and he was the same as the old boss.

#10 ::: errolwi ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:21 PM:

New Zealand doesn't often go for places with 'New' pre-pended (lots of naming after 19thC Brits, and related places e.g. Blenheim in Marlborough), and I haven't been to Zealand.

South Wales and NSW
Plymouth and New Plymouth
Brighton and New Brighton, Christchurch
Windsor and New Windsor, Auckland
King's Lynn and New Lynn, Auckland presumably don't count.
I've only spent time in a New York airport
There may be a few Australian 'News' I've visited which correspond with British places I've visited (while living in London).

#11 ::: Marc Mielke ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:24 PM:

Can't say I have, but waiting for someone to claim Hell, Germany and...

#12 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:32 PM:

Mark Mielke #11: There's a Hell in Michigan and one in the Cayman Islands.

#13 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:53 PM:

Wow, I can't think of ANY. Closest I come is Ontario, Canada and Ontario, California.

I have farted and become an old fart. Does that count?

...didn't think so.

#14 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 10:58 PM:

I could maybe get some kind of negative prize points for living in Athens (GA) and having visited Rome (GA), Cairo (GA), and Berlin (GA), without having been to any of their European originals.

Also I have been to Albany, GA but not NY.

#15 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 11:08 PM:

I've been to Newgrange, and a grange hall, but no news of where an old grange might be, nor what era it would be from.

#16 ::: Elliott Mason ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 11:28 PM:

I imagine there might exist people who have been both to a Lagrange point and to La Grange, IL, but the number is probably small, and may contain no Fluorospherians. :->

#17 ::: JM ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 11:28 PM:

The only one I can think of is Berlin and New Berlin (WI). I have been to New Prague (MN) but not Prague.

#18 ::: Q. Pheevr ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 11:51 PM:

I've visited Scotland, and I now live in Nova Scotia, but I have never been to New Caledonia.

And I've been to ports, but never to Newport News, Va.

#19 ::: Alter S. Reiss ::: (view all by) ::: January 28, 2012, 11:57 PM:

Sadly, I have been to neither Carthage or Carthago Nova. Carthage itself is Qart Hadasht--"New City", and I have been to at least one city, and I've gone through New City, New York. Other New Cities I haven't been to include Novogorod and Naples.

Sadly, there doesn't seem to be anywhere called New Carthago Nova.

#20 ::: Q. Pheevr ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 12:07 AM:

Oh, and come to think of it, I can say more specifically been to Glasgow, Scotland, and New Glasgow, Nova Scotia.

Perhaps less remarkably, I have gone to market, and I have gone to Newmarket, Ontario.

#21 ::: Q. Pheevr ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 12:16 AM:

Okay, one more. JM's comment at 17 reminds me that I have visited the Staronová Synagoga in Prague, which ought to count for something all by itself. (Never been to New Prague, though.)

#22 ::: Rich McAllister ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 12:18 AM:

Albany, New York and New Albany, Mississippi. I've been to New South Wales and South Wales, but only if you count South Wales, New York.

I find it disturbing that East Aurora, NY is about 140 miles west of Aurora, NY.

#23 ::: janetl ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 01:14 AM:

Well, to drag this into the gutter, I have lived down the street from Blue Ball, and worked in Intercourse. Pennsylvania, that is.

#24 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 01:14 AM:

I've been to both New College, Oxford (established 1379) and the Pont Neuf ["New Bridge"] in paris (completed 1607). They should probably just give up using "New" for place names.

#25 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:06 AM:

janetl @ 23:

I've been to both those and to Bird In Hand as well.

#26 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:08 AM:

Come to think of it, I've lived right off of Old York Road, and in New York as well. And I've been to New Paltz, but I'm damned if I can even confirm that Paltz exists.

#27 ::: HenryR ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:11 AM:

Bedford MA and New Bedford MA. Both on the same day.
The World and The New World. Both at the same time.

#28 ::: HenryR ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:21 AM:

Bruce @26

Pfalz. The Palatinate. Pronouced Paltz in the local dialect of Mannheim. The Huguenots who founded New Paltz (originally Nouveau Palatinat) came through Mannheim before coming to the New World.

http://www.newpaltz.org/Calvinists.pdf

#29 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:47 AM:

Almost forgot: Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, WA. And I've been to the town of New Britain many times, and lived in New England, but I've never been to Britain or England.

#30 ::: Gray Woodland ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:56 AM:

Both? Not that I can tell. I live in Troynovant, but I've never been to Troy Town, or even played it.

I have however been to Newham, which contains East Ham and West Ham, and is actually new - the old boroughs being smooshed together into this shiny new entity in 1965. (I've never met anybody outside politics who thinks many of the new London boroughs are real places or actual communities, but that's another story.)

#31 ::: littlebighaha ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:19 AM:

About 60 km from where I live in Victoria, Australia, there's Gisborne then there's New Gisborne. New Gisborne is just a part of Gisborne, so I suppose I'm cheating a bit here...

I've been to New South Wales but not South Wales.

#32 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 04:08 AM:

York and New York
Hampshire and New Hampshire
England and New England

(I've also been to any number of castles, and to Newcastle.)

It's not "new", but I've spent more time in Inverness, California than in Inverness, Scotland.

And I've been to a couple of New York homonyms: Haarlem and Breukelen, as well as their namesakes.

#33 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 04:25 AM:

I have driven to both York and New York from my home, and visited both Old and New Bolingbroke. I have also been to New Holland and two different Hollands.

#34 ::: Johan Anglemark ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:03 AM:

I think we may safely count all retronymical names as well. Sometimes the new place is called 'New' whatever and the old one keeps its name, sometimes the new place takes over the name and the old place is renamed 'Old' whatever.

I've lived in Uppsala for a long time and pass through Old Uppsala every day.

#35 ::: Milena ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:10 AM:

Oooh, I've got one: Gorizia and Nova Gorica. Which are the same town, only with a border running through it. And I can add Velika Gorica to complete the set, sort-of.

#36 ::: Tim Hall ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:40 AM:

Only York and New York for me.

Have been to Windsor and Old Windsor, but they're less than five miles apart.

#37 ::: praisegod barebones ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:56 AM:

Lee @ 24: New College Oxford has apparently taken legal action against this institution for something akin to trademark infringement.

For reasons which are too complicated to summarise in a quickfire blog comment (which is all I have time for at the moment) my sympathies are with the former. But I must admit that when I heard this particular piece of news, I felt that a countersuit should have been launched under the Trades Descriptions Act.

For what it's worth, I once lived in a building dating back to (I think) the sixteenth century that was called 'New Buildings'. For most of the rest of my life I have lived in buildings, which were considerably younger.

#38 ::: Megpie71 ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:23 AM:

I lived for a while (between ages 2 and 6, approximately) in East Victoria Park, which is a suburb of Perth, Western Australia. My parents (who both also lived in East Vic Park) had previously spent between 3 and 6 years living in the Australian state of Victoria. I've also visited Victoria, briefly.

That's about the best I can do.

#39 ::: a chris ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 07:09 AM:

Cambridge, UK and Cambridge, Ontario. No New in either of those, so I have obviously not read the question.

Kitchener, Ontario was called Berlin until 1916. I've been there and in Berlin, Germany. No, I still haven't read the question.

Scotland and Nova Scotia. There. And branches of Scotiabank, which was the top result when I searched for Scotia with Google.


#40 ::: a chris ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 07:10 AM:

Oh! And Paris, Ontario and that other Paris. I think I'd better not add any more comments as I think of more places in Ontario named after other places, because most of them are.

#41 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 09:57 AM:

Xopher (13): I've been to Ontario and Ontario, too.

My sister-in-law is from Birmingham, but not the one you're thinking of. No, not that one either. (There's a teeny-tiny one in north Georgia.)

I work in Long Beach, but probably not the one of those you're thinking of.

#42 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:06 AM:

Forgot to mention that I've been to town, and to Edinburgh's New Town as well. Never been to Carthage of any sort, but been to plenty of houses.

#43 ::: Erik Nelson ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:12 AM:

I wonder if there's an API scripting hack that will find all of those pairs on Google Maps.

#44 ::: Jon Meltzer ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:16 AM:

No one here has been to Joisey?

#45 ::: Tracie ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:20 AM:

York (PA and UK) and New York
London and New London
Hence, England and New England
Mexico and New Mexico
Laredo (still have family there) and Nuevo Laredo (still have family there, but they're leaving, and who can blame them)

#46 ::: elise ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:05 AM:

praisegod barebones @37: I like the New Buildings one.

At the University of Minnesota, there were a lot of temporary buildings put up after WWII to accommodate GI Bill students. They were called things like "Temporary West of Mines" or "Temporary North of Engineering." This led to a tradition in of calling the Newman Center "Temporary West of Rome."

As for the original question, I guess I've got:
York and New York
England and New England

Also:
Wales and Cambria, WI

Been to Berlin, WI and Friesland, WI, but didn't get to their namesakes when Juan and I were in Germany and the Netherlands, alas.

On a tangential note, Winnipeg, Manitoba has a suburb called East St. Paul. St. Paul, Minnesota, has West St. Paul and South* St. Paul and North St. Paul. Back when I lived in St. Paul, a bunch of us thought we ought to offer to trade with Winnipeg; we'd take East St. Paul to complete our set, and offer them Maplewood and Little Canada.

* South St. Paul is east of West St. Paul. No, really. Directions in St. Paul do that. Don't get me started on Sixth Street and Seventh Street, which used to be arranged so that they were parallel except where they crossed each other.

#47 ::: Douglas Triggs ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:24 AM:

Well, I've been to Mexico and New Mexico. I can't think of any others in English (never having been to Europe really limits things there).

Do train stations count? If so, I've been to 横浜 and 新横浜 (Yokohama and Shin-Yokohama -- Yokohama and new Yokohama), 大阪 and 新大阪 (Osaka and Shin-Osaka -- same as above). There are probably airport variations on that, but I'm not sure I could count any (I think the official name for Narita is actually something like New Tokyo International Airport -- but I've never been to Haneda anyway, which would be the old one. I'm too lazy to look it up, though).

Also, 新宿 (Shinjuku) and 原宿 (Harajuku), which could be translated as New Inn and Original Inn (although the "original" character could also be translated as field or meadow, so that's a bit ambiguous).

#48 ::: blnicol ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:41 AM:

Britain and New Britain, CT, and of course London and New London, CT which, as you almost say, produces England and New England as a logical corollary. I think New Haven was an actual new harbor, however.
It would be awesome if someone had Niu Briton (in Papua New Guinea) and Guinea, wouldn't it?
If you don't require that the place names be current: Nouvelle-France and France and Nova Albion and Albion.

#49 ::: Sharon Mock ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:54 AM:

I have been to both Caledonia and New Caledonia.

I knew all that traveling I did as a child would come in useful someday...

#50 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:55 AM:

Bruce Cohen #29: I have been through New Britain, CT. Never to the island of New Britain. I was born on the island of Great Britain. I have looked upon, but never been to, Brittany (Little Britain).

I have, however, gone to the End of the World (Cabo Fisterra in Galicia). Never to the beginning, wherever that is.

#51 ::: Theophylact ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 12:46 PM:

Unfortunately I've been to neither New Iberia, LA nor to Spain or Portugal.

There is, alas, no "Old Siberian City" to pair with Novosibirsk.

And New Delhi is inside Delhi.

#52 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 01:06 PM:

blnicol @ #48, D'oh! I used to LIVE in New London, Ct. yet I forgot to list it beside my other pairings. (I've been to that one in England, but not the one in Ontario.)

#53 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 01:14 PM:

elise (46): The high school I went to had a North Building, which was west of the Main Building.

American University in Washington has a New Lecture Hall, which is more than 40 years old.

#54 ::: Debbie ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 01:23 PM:

I've been to St. Petersburg, FL, and St. Petersburg, Russia. Also both Kansas City's, MO and KS.

#55 ::: Brooks Moses ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:07 PM:

Alas, the best one I can think of is having lived in Newport, Virginia, and driven through Newport News, Virginia.

I may have visited other Newports as well, though I don't recall them, and I have certainly been to plenty of ports, including ones with Port in the name. And I have had desserts made with port while in Newport.

#56 ::: Constance ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:13 PM:

There are many a Newcastle but where's Castle?

Spain, Mexico and New Mexico and the U.S. southwest generally, share many a 'Nuevo' -- as well multitudes of town and place names that don't even bother with nuevo. For example how many Belén there are, and not a one of them Nuevo, evidently assuming we all know the true Bethlehem. And then, in Portuguese colonies too, though that would be Belém. I've stayed many nights in hotels even, in Spain, Portugual, Mexico and Brasil and even Nuevo Mexico, where I lived for a long time.

Love, C.

Love, C.

#57 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:19 PM:

I've been to the almost non-existent New Idria (a ghost town for cinnabar mining in California), though I've never been to the original Idria (mercury) mine which appears to be in Slovenia. Many other pairs, yes. I used to play with how wonderful it would be if all freeway exits with the same name went to the same place -- so one could easily get to Albany NY from Albany CA, just by getting on and off the freeway.

Which reminds me of one of my favorite exits in Oakland, which reads like a theatrical setting:

A Street/Downtown

#58 ::: Arwel ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 02:22 PM:

I think I can only offer Brighton and New Brighton (Merseyside).

Fragano @12: There's also a Hell in Norway - it has/had a railway station where the goods/freight office carried the notice "Hell - Godspedition", which was always good for a photo by visiting English speakers; when the station caught fire, the British railway magazines came up with the headline "Hell Burns Down".

#60 ::: Carol Kimball ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:03 PM:

#50 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:55 AM:

[,,,] I have, however, gone to the End of the World (Cabo Fisterra in Galicia). Never to the beginning, wherever that is.

I was excited to think of Rapa Nui, "the navel of the world". Unfortunately, Wikipedia goes on:
However, there are two words pronounced pito in Rapa Nui, one meaning 'navel' and one 'end', and the phrase can thus also mean "land's end".

#61 ::: elise ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:17 PM:

Tom Whitmore @57: That's a great freeway exit sign.

In St. Paul on 94 there is the Cretin-Vandalia exit. Cretin's named for Joseph Crétin, first RC Bishop of St. Paul, a town that used to be named Pig's Eye. And yep, there is a Cretin High School, now Cretin-Durham Hall High School. I don't know where Vandalia Street got its name. It's interesting having a freeway exit that seems to promise cretins and vandals.

#62 ::: Hans ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:25 PM:

I only had Zeeland and New Zealand, but at least if been in at least one of most of the others. What about Aalesund and Ny Aalesund. Ha! Oh, I haven´t been to either.

Oh, well.

[link removed. We don't do sig files on Making Light; you get one link in your user ID, Hans, and you used it. -- AS, moderator]

#63 ::: DaveL ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:27 PM:

This is one of the cases where paper is better than the net.

I pulled out my old Rand McNally International Atlas, and there are nearly seven full columns in rather small type of "New ..." There is also a column of "Neu ..." and about 40 "Nuevo/neuva ..." and two columns of "Novo/novyi ..." and one of "Nova ..." etc.

My favorite result is that I've been to nowhere and to "New" (N.C.).

#64 ::: Emma in Sydney ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:37 PM:

I live in New South Wales, but have never been to South Wales. On the other hand, I have been to England, New England (US), and New England, New South Wales (it's a region in the north of the state, known for scenery and a university town and may be named for the US region). In Sydney there are many borrowed place names, but they mostly don't have a 'New' in front of them.

#65 ::: OtterB wonders if spam ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:51 PM:

The presence of the link and the absence of posting history at 61 makes me wonder if that is a real comment.

#66 ::: abi ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 03:55 PM:

I'll assume it's a genuine first-timer, but I've also removed the link from his text. Because we don't do sigs here.

#67 ::: errolwi ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 04:20 PM:

DaveL @63 re paper maps
When we moved a new months ago I threw out my NZ mapbook, which would have been handy for this.

#68 ::: Wrye ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 04:24 PM:

Oh! I've been to both Westminster and New Westminster. Also the College of New Caledonia, which is not where you might think it is.

#69 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 04:32 PM:

57
And the other pair: New Almaden, south of San Jose (California) and Almadén, in Spain. Also cinnabar mining: New Almaden is posted 'don't eat fish caught here'.

#70 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 04:36 PM:

61
There's a Vandalia in Illinois (the end of the Vandalia Road, one of the early interstate roads). (There was a Vandall family, too, but I wouldn't want to be on a connection.)

#71 ::: Vicki ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:01 PM:

There's no "old" to go with it, but I've been to the New Territories (Hong Kong).

Like others here, York and New York; England and New England; Scotland and Nova Scotia; both Vancouvers; and Cambridge, England, and Cambridge, Mass. (Not counting France and New France, because the latter hasn't been called that in a long time.)

The best I can do on train stations is that I've also been to a Hong Kong subway station called "Times Square" and regularly use the Times Square station in New York.

#72 ::: Alan Braggins ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:07 PM:

York and New York
England and New England, including Hampshire and New Hampshire
Jersey and New Jersey

(I've been to castles older than Newcastle, and I've been to Kastro but its castle is newer - does that count? Or does Chester (from the Roman castra)? I haven't been to Oldcastle.)

#73 ::: Julie S ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 05:10 PM:

I grew up near a New Cassel, which I always thought was a corruption of Newcastle. It's not; it's actually named after Cassel in Germany, where the Hessians came from. Many of them settled in the area after the Revolutionary War. Haven't been to Cassel myself though.

The area where I grew up is known as being on the Salisbury Plain (Long Island), and I have also been to Salisbury, England.

#74 ::: Ken Brown ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:02 PM:

The canonIcal chain of newness must be Tyre (as in "and Sidon"), which might just mean "city" or "town" => Carthage ("new Tyre") => Cartagena => Nueva Cartagena. That is "New New New New Town".

#75 ::: John Mark Ockerbloom ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:03 PM:

"Sometimes the new place is called 'New' whatever and the old one keeps its name, sometimes the new place takes over the name and the old place is renamed 'Old' whatever."

And sometimes the olds and news just keep piling up. When I was growing up I visited a historic site called the Old Newgate Prison, in East Granby, Connecticut. It got its name from Newgate Prison in London (which seems to have been originally named for its proximity to a "new" -- now quite old -- London city gate). The American version then was in a sense a "new" Newgate, which long after it ceased to be a prison acquired the "old" part of its present name.

Its Wikipedia article reports that it recently was closed for restoration. So if I go to visit it again after it reopens, for me it will basically be the new Old Newgate Prison.

#76 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:20 PM:

Tom Whitmore @57: Actually that exit is a ways south of Oakland, in Hayward. Oakland doesn't have any streets with names that are just letters.

(For some reason I'm okay with giving streets names that are ordinal numbers, but not names that are alphabet letters -- possibly just familiarity, since I grew up in Berkeley and Oakland, that have the one and not the other; also maybe because numbers are an infinite naming scheme while letters run out after only 26 instances.)

#77 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:29 PM:

abi @66 and Hans @62, I also thought it might be a genuine first time post. If so, welcome, Hans.

#78 ::: John Mark Ockerbloom ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:37 PM:

"For some reason I'm okay with giving streets names that are ordinal numbers, but not names that are alphabet letters ... maybe because numbers are an infinite naming scheme while letters run out after only 26 instances."

Washington, DC manages to keep it going a ways longer. The first set of streets has letter names in alphabetical order. Then you get a sequence of two-syllable names in alphabetical order. Then you get a sequence of *three-syllable* names in alphabetical order. (They then go to alphabetical plant names instead of 4-syllable names at the northern end of the District, but you could see how they could keep this up in various ways indefinitely.)

#79 ::: Thena ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 06:47 PM:

It took me a very long time to think of these, but I've visited Manchester, England and Manchester, New Hampshire (which gets me the easy England/New England pair also.)

I lived in Portland, Oregon which was named for Portland, Maine (which we visit with "nearest city over 50K" frequency) but I don't think I've been to New Portland, Maine except perhaps by accident on the way to somewhere else.

I've been to/through New York state but not really New York city (unless you count the airport), and York, Maine but not York, England.

A large portion of Maine seems to be named for somewhere else, anyway (or at least for people for whom lots of other things have been named.)

Evidence Thereof. (link goes to a photo I thought I'd put on Flickr awhile ago, but apparently not.)

#80 ::: DanR ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 07:08 PM:

Port Richey and New Port Richey
Newport and Newport News
York and New York
Mexico and New Mexico
England and New England
London and New London

#81 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 07:45 PM:

For some reason I'm okay with giving streets names that are ordinal numbers, but not names that are alphabet letters ... maybe because numbers are an infinite naming scheme while letters run out after only 26 instances.

Where I was in west Texas, the north-south streets were alphabetical, but using real words or places.
Trees: Ash, Beech, Cedar
Places: Austin, Baltimore, Columbia (out to Xenia an Zephyr, then starting over with Amarillo)

It does become problematic with some letters - there are only so many options for Q, X, and Z - but it works for at least thirty-five streets.

#82 ::: Nenya ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 08:34 PM:

I thought I didn't have any, but then I realized I've visited both Portland, Maine and Portland, Oregon. I may also have been to Vancouver, WA and most definitely Vancouver, BC.

But neither of those are News. If I've been to Toronto (I might have done, when I was very small), would that count as a pair with New York? York being the former name of Toronto, several centuries back.

I have always wanted to visit Uppsala, Sweden, since I grew up in Upsala, Ontario.

I've been to Norway, ME and Manchester, NH, and London, ON, but not their namesakes.

#83 ::: Laura Runkle ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:07 PM:

France and New France.
Wichita and Wichita Falls. (Pat Metheny was my hero when it came out.) Bedford and New Bedford, MA.
And then all the revolutionary hero war towns...
Marion, IA; Marion, OH; and Marion, MA. (Missed the other Marions.)
Washington, D. C.; Washington, IA; Washington State; Washington, IL...

#84 ::: Thena ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:20 PM:

Oh, and I've also been to Newport, OR and Newport, ME as well as Portland (ME)'s Old Port. I'm not sure if that counts or not.

#85 ::: Tracie ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 10:35 PM:

At the University of Georgia (founded 1785), Old College was built in 1806, and originally held the entire university. New College was built in 1822 and rebuilt in 1832. Both halls are still in use.

#86 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: January 29, 2012, 11:36 PM:

Bedford, MA; Bedford NH; New Bedford, MA
Boston, MA; New Boston, NH
Jerusalem, Israel; Salem, MA; Salem NH
London, England; been thorugh New London, CT
Brighton, England; Brighton, MA
Mexico; New Mexico
Orleans, MA; New Orleans, LA
Berlin MA; Berlin NH
England, New England
Florida; Florida, MA
Washington, NH; Washington, DC; Washington (state)
Lancaster, PA; Lancaster, MA
Jersey City, NJ; New Jersey
New York City, NY; New York

#87 ::: John D. Berry ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 12:41 AM:

Glad that someone pointed out that there's a New England in Australia, not just the one that comprises the northeastern US states.

I'm pleased to see that a googling of "new Seattle" comes up with...nothing.

I've spent time in the Bronx and I grew up Bronxville, but I think that is really pushing your metaphor.

#88 ::: Earl Cooley III ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 01:48 AM:

Dime Box and Old Dime Box.

#89 ::: Alter S. Reiss ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 07:29 AM:

Oh, and I've been to work, and I've been to Newark.

#90 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 08:10 AM:

Ken Brown #74: Cartagena, Colombia, which is named after Cartagena, Spain, is known in Spanish as Cartagena de Indias to distinguish it from the older Cartagena.

By the way, for people who want to contrast between Old and New, I know people who have been to Old Providence (Providencia Island, Colombia) and New Providence, the location of the capital of the Bahamas.* In fact, one such person is an editor for whom I work. I don't know if he's also been to Providence, RI.


* New Providence was so named because the colony was established by settlers who had been expelled from Old Providence (originally just 'Providence') by the Spaniards. At some point someone has got to write a coherent history of British colonisation of the southwestern corner of the Caribbean. I am not that someone.

#91 ::: Dave DuPlantis ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 08:54 AM:

Albany, NY and New Albany, IN. (I'm not sure that I was actually _in_ New Albany, but I don't know exactly where we were going in Louisville, so I may have been very close or actually there. At worst, I was the proverbial stone's throw away.)

That's the only pair I know for sure.

#92 ::: Sylvia ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 09:29 AM:

In California and in Spain I have lived at the edge of the Sierra Nevada. I've visited both Boston Lincolnshire and Boston, MA. I've also had leisurely walks around both Venice and Little Venice in London, but that is probably pushing it.

#93 ::: Theophylact ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 10:32 AM:

New Guinea/Guinea
The New Hebrides/The Hebrides

The Pont Neuf is actually the oldest bridge across the Seine. And then there's the Old New Synagogue (Czech: Staronová synagoga; German: Altneu-Synagoge) in Prague:

The Old New Synagogue (Czech: Staronová synagoga; German: Altneu-Synagoge) situated in Josefov, Prague, is Europe's oldest active synagogue. It is also the oldest surviving medieval synagogue of twin nave design. Completed in 1270 in gothic style, it was one of Prague's first gothic buildings. A still older Prague synagogue, known as the Old Synagogue, was demolished in 1867 and replaced by the Spanish Synagogue. The synagogue was originally called the New or Great Synagogue and later, when newer synagogues were built in the 16th century, it became known as the Old-New Synagogue.


#94 ::: joann ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 12:08 PM:

London, KY; New London, CT; London, UK
York, UK; New York, NY

Not "New", but same:
Lexington, KY; Lexington, MA; Lexington, TX
Newport, OR; Newport, KY; Newport, RI
Mountain Home, AR; Mountain Home, TX
Portland, OR; Portland, ME
Rockport, ME; Rockport, TX
Essex, CT; Essex, MA
Richmond, KY; Richmond, UK
La Grange, KY; La Grange, TX
Cambridge, MA; Cambridge, MD; Cambridge, UK
Florence, IT; Florence, TX; Florence, KY
Pasadena, TX; Pasadena, CA
Arlington, MA; Arlington, TX
Oxford, UK; Oxford, MD
Fayette County, KY; Fayette County, TX

Not "New", but additive:
Frederick, MD; Fredericksburg, TX
Saratoga, CA; Saratoga Springs, NY
Eureka, CA; Eureka Springs, AR
Campbell, CA; Campbellsville, KY

Stretching it:
San Francisco, CA; Frisco, TX
Santa Croce sestiere of Venice; Santa Cruz, CA
Georgetown, KY; Georgetown, TX; Georgetown area of Washington DC
Hyde Park in London UK; Hyde Park neighborhood, Austin, TX
Ravenna, IT; Ravenna neighborhood of Seattle, WA

#95 ::: Jon Baker ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 02:17 PM:

Theophylact @ 51:

No, no, Delhi is in Delaware County, NY, home of Delhi Tech. My late Uncle Dick wrote a tongue-in-cheek piece about the relationship between Delhi, NY and New Delhi, India.

#96 ::: Inquisitive Raven ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 03:05 PM:

York (England); New York City

If train stations count: London (England); New London, CT

England; New England

Scotland; Nova Scotia

Hmm, Montgomery County, PA; Montgomery County, MD?

Chester (England); Chester, PA; West Chester, PA (no, they're not next to each other.)

Providence, RI; Upper Providence Twp, PA; Lower Providence Twp, PA (Like Chester, PA and West Chester, PA nowhere near each other)

Worcester, MA; Worcester, PA (not pronounced the same and possibly only if blowing through on the PA Turnpike counts); I don't believe I made it to Worcester, England.

I'm not even going to try to guess about place names in Wales vis the Main Line. I just don't remember that trip well enough. For those who don't know, the Main Line outside Philadelphia is loaded with Welsh names, many of them actual Welsh place names. That includes several of the dorms at Bryn Mawr College, my alma mater. "Bryn mawr" itself means something like "big hill" and may not have an exact analogue in Wales although there are plenty of big hills in that country.

If I think of any others, I'll add them.

#97 ::: OtterB ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 03:12 PM:

Inquisitive Raven's mention of Montgomery County MD and Montgomery County PA reminds me, there is also a Montgomery County, VA.

Once I had car trouble at Sugarloaf Mountain, Maryland, which is north of Washington DC, on the border between Montgomery and Frederick County Maryland. I called AAA for help. Due to some glitch in the DC-metro-area AAA phone system, I was routed to a Virginia dispatcher rather than a Maryland one.

We went around in circles for several minutes before he realized the problem. See, Virginia has a Montgomery County, a Frederick County, and a Sugarloaf Mountain ... but they aren't next to each other, and so my description of my location made no sense at all to him.

#98 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 03:14 PM:

Alter S. Reiss #89:

I've been to both Newark, NJ and Newark, OH.

#99 ::: Lylassandra ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 03:26 PM:

I've been to Jerusalem, but I hear New Jerusalem isn't ready yet.

#100 ::: Lylassandra ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 03:51 PM:

My husband would like to add that he has lived in both Pest and Újpest.

#101 ::: Jeff R. ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 05:02 PM:

Lylassandra@99: There's always New Salem until it is...

#102 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 05:50 PM:

Des Moines, Wa and Des Moines, IA
Also, Indianola WA, and Indianola IA.

Both of these are bigger in Iowa.

There's also a Mt Vernon, WA, Mt Vernon, IA (which I think I've just barely missed going though), and the original GW's house in Virginia. I grew up within the bounds of one of the fields of the plantation. Cornell College is in Mt Vernon, IA. I went to Cornell University, (Ithaca, NY), which is not in a place called Mt Vernon.

When I was younger, I had this fantasy that the world's geometry was multiply connected, so that everything that had the same name was actually the same place. I would spend long car rides looking for the fastest way to traverse the wrinkled space, because clearly the interstate system wasn't following the optimal geometric paths.

#103 ::: eric ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 05:52 PM:

Oh, and my siblings refused to play the "spell your name with signs" game, because Frederick (and permutations) was an instant win for me.

#104 ::: Melissa Mead ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 06:50 PM:

Only Mexico and New Mexico. I have no passport. So I've been to/passed through the New York State versions of Athens, Rome, Cairo, Paris, Ithaca, Scotia, and Troy, but not the originals.

#105 ::: chris ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 07:19 PM:

Lots of people have been to Mars, PA, including me, but I'm reasonably sure none of them have been to Mars.

Yet.

Also, I've been to the New River, but never just the River.

#106 ::: joyjoy ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 08:59 PM:

East of my home is Unionville, and five minutes down State Road 45 is New Unionville.

I have visited both Vancouvers.

And I will offer a twist question: have you visited, lived in, or heard of the American town whose name is an elision of the Old World hometown? Example: Narbonne, France became Gnaw Bone, Indiana. h/t les Voyageurs.

#107 ::: Lila ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 09:31 PM:

P J Evans @ #81, the streets in my hometown were 1st, 2nd, 3rd... in one direction and Ash, Beech, Cherry... in the orthogonal direction.

In my list of places whose famous namesakes I've never been to, Cedars of Lebanon (State Park, TN). Which probably now has more cedars than the original Lebanon. Also Mars Hill (GA) but not the one Paul argued with people on.

But I HAVE been to both Monticello, GA and the Jefferson estate for which it is named. So HA!

#108 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 09:36 PM:

107
There's a Monticello in Illinois, too. It's between Decatur and Champaign.

#109 ::: Inquisitive Raven ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 11:39 PM:

Washington, DC; Washington state; Washington Ave in University City, MO (an actual incorporated community in contrast to University City, a neighborhood of Philadelphia centered metaphorically on Drexel University and UPenn.); Washington Ave in South Philadelphia although I imagine they're all named after the first president rather than any of them being named after another one.

#110 ::: Inquisitive Raven ::: (view all by) ::: January 30, 2012, 11:45 PM:

Newark, DE; Newark, NJ although the latter only the train station or NJ Turnpike.

#111 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 01:32 AM:

Anyone here been to New Earth?

#112 ::: Chris ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 09:49 AM:

Bruce Cohen @111:
No, but I live in the biosphere and have visited Biosphere 2.

#113 ::: Inquisitive Raven ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 10:31 AM:

And when I was listing all those Washingtons, I forgot Washington University in St. Louis where my father was a professor.

#114 ::: Rob Hansen ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 01:38 PM:

I live in Newham (a district of London) and have visited Oldham. I also live in the Eastern Hemisphere and work in the Western Hemisphere. Hell of a commute, let me tell you, all of half an hour....

#115 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 01:55 PM:

Rob Hansen #114: Indeed so, especially if you do it on the Tube.

#116 ::: Marty In Boise ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 02:52 PM:

While doing some paperwork I came across an address for someone living in "California, Maryland." Thought that had to be a mistake, but the ZIP code checked out; there is such a place, though not, as far as I can tell, a "Maryland, California."

Also, while I've been to ME, I've never been to Paradise.

#117 ::: Mary Aileen ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 02:58 PM:

Marty in Boise (116): There's also a Wyoming, Pennsylvania.

#118 ::: elise ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 03:02 PM:

chris @105: Well, if David Levine is here, I think he's got a decent claim at having been to Mars in some fashion.

#119 ::: Vicki ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 05:12 PM:

There's also an Indiana, Pennsylvania, a town about which I know nothing except that it gives its name to the Indiana University of Pennsylvania. I can't help thinking that okay, it really is in Indiana, Penn., but couldn't they have thought of someone to name it after instead?

#120 ::: David DeLaney ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 09:39 PM:

John@75: And let us not forget Jack Douglas' fictional Old New Litchridge, CT.

Is the game extendable to Overs and Unders? And/or to places that take their name from some other country and pronounce it in the USAan fashion instead, so that you can't tell just by the spelling?

--Dave, Torpenhow Hill

#121 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: January 31, 2012, 10:52 PM:

117
I understand there's a Wyoming in Ontario, too.

#122 ::: Paula Lieberman ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2012, 12:24 AM:

There's a sign for "River Meadow Brook" on I-495 "south" (it;s actually counterclockwise...) just west of US 3 and what once were the Wang Towers (I think the renaming to Crosspoint is still the designation of the triple towers builsing...)

#123 ::: Nenya ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2012, 03:05 AM:

@114 I also live in the Eastern Hemisphere and work in the Western Hemisphere.

Okay, I'll bite: which bit of the planet is this? I'm sure I'm missing something at least slightly obvious...

#124 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2012, 03:36 AM:

Clarification: the Lee who posted #24 is not me.

If we're including same-name cities...
Nashville, TN and Nashville, IN
Pasadena, TX and Pasadena, CA
Huntsville, TX and Huntsville, AL

Conversely, I've visited Mt. Juliet, TN which is absolutely unique AFAIK.

janetl, #3: Heh. The original Empire Builder rail-game (and its successor, North American Rails) includes both Portlands. There was one memorable game in which someone spent a lot of money building track to the wrong one, and (understandably IMO) bowed out of the game upon discovering the error.

Janet C., #5: Well, they tell me I was born there, but I really don't remember.
And now I have an earworm.

Tom, #57: I used to play with how wonderful it would be if all freeway exits with the same name went to the same place -- so one could easily get to Albany NY from Albany CA, just by getting on and off the freeway.

My version of this involves something like stepping disks or a transporter booth, such that you can go from City A to any City B with the same name. As much as my partner and I travel, it's a nice little fantasy.

Dave, #59: Heh. Reminds me of this tribute to a Detroit-area icon. (Warning -- language NSFW.)

elise, #61: There's an exit sign along I-12E in Louisiana for Baptist / Pumpkin Center. Except without the slash and stacked vertically. Due to the directional conventions of highway signs, if you're driving west it says Pumpkin Center / Baptist, which is less amusing.

#125 ::: Ingvar M ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2012, 05:29 AM:

Nenya @ #123:

London, UK. The Eastern hemisphere is (definitionally, as it were) anything east of the Greenwich meridian and the Western anything west of.

I used to work at a place where I frequently crossed the meridian on foot going to or from the office, these days I mostly cross it while under ground, so am less aware of the exact moment.

I suspect "live in the Eastern, work in the Western" is more common (in London, at least) than the converse.

#126 ::: Peter S. ::: (view all by) ::: February 01, 2012, 06:51 AM:

I've been to Providence (RI) and New Providence (NJ). I've also been to Newark (DE) and Newark (NJ), but not to Ark.

#127 ::: Sean Sakamoto ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2012, 05:54 PM:

I've been to Kalamazoo, Michigan, and Numazu, Shizuoka.

#128 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2012, 06:28 PM:

I've been through Kalama, WA, and often thought of Kalamazoo. They don't appear to have one.

#129 ::: Erik Nelson ::: (view all by) ::: February 02, 2012, 06:52 PM:

Newark NJ and Newark Delaware are on the same train line, and the conductors know they are supposed to pronounce them differently.

#130 ::: Charlie Stross ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2012, 12:36 PM:

Do Leeds and Leeds Castle count?

One's a large city in Yorkshire (where I grew up); the other is a late mediaeval fortress in the South.

#131 ::: Thena ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2012, 01:46 PM:

@124 (Baptist / Pumpkin Center, LA)

I remember that sign and that interchange (it lies on the stretch of interstate between my parents' home and where I attended university) but never had reason to drive through Baptist or Pumpkin Center.

Or to remember having done so, anyway. Probably I did at some point; I did a lot of driving on the back roads of that part of Louisiana in the extremely late 1980s.

#132 ::: Julie L. ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2012, 01:59 PM:

I've lived near both Menlo Park NJ and Menlo Park CA. Apparently there's also a Menlo Park in South Africa, which I have not been to.

#133 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: February 05, 2012, 05:31 PM:

Caistor and Caister.

And both the Kirtons.

And a couple of Appleby... OK, how do you make the plural of that? That was on a rail trip to Glasgow.

#134 ::: Paul A. ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2012, 08:09 AM:

Dave Bell @ #133:

Well, on the principle that the plural of "mongoose" is "a mongoose, and also another mongoose"...

#135 ::: LE ::: (view all by) ::: February 06, 2012, 11:39 AM:

On the not-New-but-same front, I've been to both Jersey Shore PA (which seems to exist entirely as a way to get people to go the wrong way on Rte. 80) and to the "Jersey Shore" (Margate and Ocean City to be specific). But I've never seen the TV show, thank FSM.

And I regularly visit both Newark NJ (pronounced Nu-werk), or at least it's airport, and Newark DE (pronounced New-ark). And while the conductors on the train may know the difference, the phone customer service people at Amtrak DO NOT, as I learned when I very nearly missed my sister's rehearsal dinner as a result of my failure to elaborate (while there may be trains once an hour through the NJ stop, there was only one a day that stopped in DE).

#136 ::: Ken Brown ::: (view all by) ::: February 17, 2012, 08:35 AM:

Come to think of it, I'm from Brighton but I have at least once set foot in New Brighton (for a pub quiz).

There are a *lot* of places called after Brighton in the world. Maybe up to twenty of them. It seems to have been the default name for a seaside resort in the early and mid-19th century.

The other old coastal resorts in Britain, such as Scarborough and Margate don't get anywhere near the number of new towns bamed for them. (And that upstart Blackpool has few or none)

#137 ::: Niall McAuley ::: (view all by) ::: February 17, 2012, 10:07 AM:

Apart from Dublin, of course.

#138 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: February 17, 2012, 12:36 PM:

Cross threading a little: Britain, Brighton, Broughton?

#139 ::: Wil Macaulay ::: (view all by) ::: February 20, 2012, 12:16 AM:

York(UK), new York, north York (Ontario)
Cornwall Ontario, Cornwall uk, Cornouaille (Brittany )
Cambridge Ma, Cambridge ont, Cambridge uk
Liverpool nova scotia, Liverpool uk
Orleans France, Orleans Ontario
San Jose California , San Jose costa rica

#140 ::: fidelio sees spam ::: (view all by) ::: June 27, 2012, 02:59 PM:

Here as well.

#141 ::: praisegod barebones ::: (view all by) ::: January 01, 2013, 03:55 AM:

Rob Hansen @ 114

A few weeks back, my wife and daughter ran from Europe to Asia. And I do intercontinental bus trips on a fairly regular basis.

#142 ::: Xopher Halftongue ::: (view all by) ::: January 01, 2013, 04:13 PM:

Yes, pgbb, Western Asia and Eastern Europe are really remarkably close together, aren't they?

#143 ::: rea ::: (view all by) ::: January 02, 2013, 10:18 AM:

I once dove (on the Alaskan Highway) from Wyoming to Alaska, and later replicated my journey by riding my bike from Wyoming, Michigan to Alaska, Michigan.

#144 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: January 02, 2013, 12:02 PM:

That's a long dive, rea!

#145 ::: Brooks Moses ::: (view all by) ::: January 02, 2013, 01:15 PM:

It seems relevant to this thread that I grew up in Newport, Virginia, and have driven through Newport News, Virginia.

I don't recall having visited Newport, Rhode Island, though.

#146 ::: Ginger ::: (view all by) ::: January 02, 2013, 08:48 PM:

Favorite highway sign: North East Rising Sun.

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