Nicholas de Audley

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 11 Nov 1292, of Heleigh in Audley, Staffordshire, England
• Alternate death: Bef 9 Dec 1316

Notes:

He was summoned to Parliament from 8 Jan 1313 to 25 Aug 1318 (by which latter date he had already died) by writs directed Nicholao de Audele.

Nicholas married Joan Martin before 6 Jun 1313. Joan (daughter of William Martin and Eleanor fitz Reynold) died between Feb 1320 and 1 Aug 1322. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Alice de Audley died after 1357.
2. James de Audley was born on 7 Jan 1314 in Kneesall, Nottinghamshire, England; died on 1 Apr 1386 in Heleigh in Audley, Staffordshire, England; was buried in Hulton Abbey, Staffordshire, England.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 28 Aug 1299

Nicholas married Katherine Giffard. Katherine (daughter of John Giffard and Maud de Clifford) was born about 1272; died after 1321. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 23 Jun 1272, Thomond, Ireland

Notes:

Also de Aldithel, Audley. Crusader with Prince Edward, 1270.

"James of Aldithley, 1st or 2nd s. and h., b. about 1220. Keeper of the castle of Newcastle-under-Lyme, 30 Oct. 1250. He joined in a letter of the Barons to the Pope in 1258. Witnessed, as one of the King's sworn Council, the confirmation by Henry III of the Provisions of Oxford, 1258; Lord Marcher; Sheriff of Salop, and co. Staff., 1261-62 and 1270-71; Justiciar of Ireland 1270-72. He took an active part on the King's side against the Barons, being in arms for the King on the Welsh Marches in 1264, and engaging in the Evesham campaign in 1265. He m., in 1244, Ela, da. of William Longespee (who d. 1250), s. and h. of Ela, suo jure Countess of Salisbury, by Idoine, da. and h. of Richard de Camville. She brought him the manors of Stratton, afterwards called Stratton Audley, and Wretchwick, Oxon, in frank marriage. He d. about 11 June (1272) 56 Hen. III, in Ireland, by 'breaking his neck.' Writ for his Inq. p. m. 16 July 1272. His widow d. apparently shortly before 22 Nov. 1299. Inq. p. m. (1325-26) 19 Edw. II." [Complete Peerage I:337-38, as corrected in Volume XIV.]

Notes:

Suo jure Countess of Salisbury.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 29 May 1299, Boyton, Wiltshire, England

Notes:

From Complete Peerage V:639:

Sir John Giffard, of Brimpsfield, Badgeworth, Stonehouse, Stoke Gifford, and Rockhampton, co. Gloucester, Elston, Orcheston St. George, Sherrington, Ashton, and Broughton Gifford, Wilts, son and heir of Sir Elis Giffard, of Brimpsfield, &c. (who died shortly before 2 May 1248) (c1), by his 2nd wife, Alice, sister of Sir John Mautravers, of Lytchet Matravers, Dorset (a). He was aged 16, or 16 and more, at his father's death (b1). With several other barons, he seized the Bishop of Hereford, 11 June 1263, and took him to Eardisley Castle. On 18 August following, he was among those who made a treaty with Edward, the King's son. He had just been appointed, 7 August, by the advice of the Magnates of the Council, Keeper of the castle of St. Briavel and the forest of Dean, during pleasure, and he was pardoned, 18 September following, for all trespasses committed by reason of non-observance of the Provisions of Oxford. He was appointed joint Keeper of the counties of Gloucester, Worcester, and Hereford, 24 December 1263. In 1264 he belonged to the baronial party, and in April, being in command at Kenilworth, he surprised and destroyed Warwick Castle, taking the Earl and Countess prisoners. On 14 May following he was at the battle of Lewes, where he was taken prisoner early in the day, but he had already captured William la Zuche. He was one of those prohibited, 16 February 1264/5, from taking part in the tournament at Dunstaple, and ordered to attend a Council on the morrow of Ash Wednesday [19 February] following. He changed sides together with the Earl of Gloucester and others, and was in the King's army at the battle of Evesham, 4 August 1265. In consideration of his services at this battle, he was pardoned, 9 Oct. 1265, for having adhered to Simon de Montfort at the battle of Lewes, and for all other trespasses committed up to the said 9 October. He was one of the commissioners empowered, 24 April 1274, to make a truce at the ford of Montgomery, in a month from Easter [29 April], between Llewelyn ab Gruffyd, Prince of Wales, and Humphrey de Bohun of Brecknock. On 6 November 1281 he had licence to hunt wolves, with his own hounds, throughout all the King's forests in England. He was appointed Keeper of the castle of Llandovery, co. Carmarthen, 9 April 1282, and of that of Builth, co. Brecknock, 14 October following, both during pleasure. On 18 November 1283 the King granted him, in fee, the commote of Iscennen, co. Carmarthen, to hold by the service of a knight's fee: and, on 8 February 1289/90, the castle of Dynevor in that county, for life, as a refuge for himself and his men: he was ordered to deliver this castle to Walter de Pederton, 29 July 1297. He was present at the assemblies held at Berwick in October and November 1297, to discuss the various claims to the Crown of Scotland. He was Captain of Podensac in Gascony, which town he surrendered to the French, in 1294/5. He was summoned for Military Service from 18 July 1257 to 7 May 1299, to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283, to attend the King at Salisbury, 26 January 1296/7, to a Military Council, 20 August 1297,and to Parliament from 24 June 1295. to 10 April 1299, by writs directed Johanni Giffard, or Gyffard, occasionally with the additionde Brimmesfeld', whereby he is held to have become Lord Giffard.

He was affianced, at the age of 4 years, to Aubrey de Caumville (who was about the same age), but he did not marry her (b2). He married, 1stly, Maud [c2], widow of Sir William Lungespee, of Amesbury, Aldbourne, and Trowbridge, Wilts, Canford, Dorset, Bicester, Oxon; Brattleby, co., Lincoln, &c. (who died between 23 December 1256 and 3 January 1256/7], and daughter and heir of Sir Walter de Clifford, of Clifford co. Hereford, Cortham, Salop, &c., by Margaret, daughter of Llewelyn ab Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales. She, who was living 1 December 1281, died s.p.m., not long afterwards. He married, 2ndly, in 1286, Margaret, widow of Sir John de Neville, of Hallingbury, Wethersfield, Great Totham, Great Wakering and Langharn, Essex, Alphington, Devon, &c. who died shortly before 20 May 1282. He died at Boyton, Wilts, 29 May, and was buried 11 June 1299 in Malmesbury Abbey. His widow's dower was ordered to be assigned, 1 August 1299, and on 5 August she was assigned the manors of Stonehouse, Stoke Gifford, Elston, and Broughton Gifford. She died shortly before 13 December 1338.

(c1) In 1221 this Elis stated that "Osbertus Giffard, antecessor suusqui venit ad conquestum Angl' tenuit manerium de Bimesfeld' . . . et post eum Elias flius suus . . . et post eum Elias filius illius Elieet pater suus." At least one generation is here omitted. The Elis living in 1221 was son and heir of Elis III, by Maud, daughter of Morice fitz Robert fitz Hardinge, of Berkeley: which Elis III owed 100 marks 'pro fine terre sue' in 1166 and died before Michaelmas 1190, when William le Mareschal owed 140 marks for the custody of the lands of Elis Giffard. Elis III was son and heir of Elis II (who became a monk in Gloucester Abbey), by Berta (living 1167), sister of Walter de Clifford, of Clifford and Glasbury, and daughter of Richard fitzPonce. In 1130 Elis II rendered account of 100 marks of silver for the relief of his father's lands, being son and heir of Elis I, by Ala, his wife. Before 1096 Elis I had succeeded his father Osbern Giffard, the Domesday tenant of Brimpsfield, Stoke, Rockhampton, Elston, Orcheston, etc.

(a) John Mautravers gave the manor of Ashton and the advowson of the church of St. Peter at Codford, Wilts, to Elis Giffard in free marriage with Alice his sister, to hold to them and their heirs of their bodies, by the service of a knight's fee.

(b1) "Elias Giffard". He held the manor of Winterburne (now Elston), of the King in chief, as the head of his barony; the manor of Sherrington pertaining to that barony; and that of Ashton, held ofJ ohn Mautravers in free marriage. Heir [name cut away] his son aged 16 [rest cut away]. The proof of age of this heir, John Giffard, is undated and defective, but it states that he was born on the day of St. Wulstan (19 Jan).

(b2) So the proof of age mentioned above. She was probably the Aubrey de Canville, a nun of Polesworth, who was elected Abbess in Dec 1276 or in the following month. The marriage was contracted at Arrow, co. Warwick, and she must have been a daughter of Thomas de Camville, of Arrow, and a descendant of Aubrey Marmion, Lady of Arrow, wife of William de Caumville.

John married Maud de Clifford before 10 Mar 1271. Maud (daughter of Walter IV de Clifford and Margaret ferch Llywelyn) was born in of Clifford, Herefordshire, England; died between 1282 and 1285. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1 Dec 1281
• Alternate death: 1282

Notes:

"He [John Giffard] married, 1stly, Maud, widow of Sir William Lungespee, of Amesbury, Aldbourne, and Trowbridge, Wilts, Canford, Dorset, Bicester, Oxon; Brattleby, co., Lincoln, &c. (who died between 23 December 1256 and 3 January 1256/7), and daughter and heir of Sir Walter de Clifford, of Clifford co. Hereford, Cortham, Salop, &c., by Margaret, daughter of Llewelyn ab Iorwerth, Prince of North Wales. She, who was living 1 December 1281, died s.p.m., not long afterwards." [Complete Peerage V:639-44]

[footnote in CP to the above:] Maud Lungespee notified the King that John Giffard had abducted her from her manor of Canford, Dorset, and taken her against her will to his castle of Brimpsfield, and there detained her. John appeared before the King, and professed himself ready to prove that he did not abduct her against her will, and offered a fine of 300 marks for the marriage already contracted, as it was said, between them, provided she made no further complaint against him. On 10 March 1270/1 the King ordained that if she were not content, the said fine should be void,and John should stand his trial at a month from Easter. And as she was too unwell to appear before the King, commissioners were sent to inquire into the truth of the matter, and to certify the King thereof. John and Maud, and her Ist husband, William Lungespee, were all descended from Richard fitz Ponce. Why John Giffard should have referred to himself as being of the race of Le Lungespee as in the proof of age mentioned above he is said to have done--is not explicable; unless, indeed, the sobriquet was derived from the family of Clifford.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 19 Nov 1246

Notes:

Also called Henry de Audley; Aldithlegh.

Sheriff of Shrophsire and Staffordshire 1227-8, 1229-32.

"Henry of Aldithley, 2nd son of Adam of Aldithley, (who d. bet. 1203 and 1211) by Emma, daughter of Ralf fitz Orm, of Darlaston, Staffs; was b. about 1175; with his father, he was witness to a charter of Harvey Bagot in 1194. He bought large estates from Eleanor Malbank in 1214; in 1227 he acquired the manors of Edgmund and Newport, and in 1230 that of Ford, all in Salop, and all held by him direct from the Crown, though not by military or knight service. He was Under Sheriff of Salop and co. Stafford 1217-20, and Sheriff 1227-32; was in command of the Welsh Marches 1223-46. He built the castle of Heligh, co. Stafford; and Red Castle, Salop. In 1223 he founded Hulton Abbey. He was appointed Custodian of Chester and Beeston Castle, 22 June 1237, on the extinction of the the earldom of Chester. He m. in 1217, Bertred, daughter of Ralf Mainwaring, Seneschal of Chester. He d. in 1246, shortly bef. Nov. His widow was living in 1249. She was bur. in Hulton Abbey." [Complete Peerage I:337, as corrected in Volume XIV.]

From A Genealogical History of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited and Extinct Peerages of the British Empire:

"That this family of Alditheley, vulgarly called Audley," says Dugdale, "came to be great and eminent, the ensuing discourse will sufficiently manifest: but that the rise thereof was no higher than King John's time, and that the first who assumed this surname was a branch of that ancient and noble family of Verdon, whose chief seat was at Alton Castle in the northern part of Staffordshire, I am very inclined to believe; partly by reason that Henry had the inheritance of Alditheley given him by Nicholas de Verdon, who d. in the 16th Henry III [1232], or near that time; and partly for that he bore for his arms the same ordinary as Vernon did...so that probably the ancestor of this Henry first seated himself at Alditheley: for that there hath been an ancient mansion there, the large moat, northwards from the parish church there (somewhat less than a furlong, and upon the chief part of a fair ascent), do sufficiently manifest."

Henry de Alditheley, to whom Dugdale alludes above, being in great favour with Ranulph, Earl of Chester and Lincoln (the most powerful subject of England in his time), obtained from that nobleman a grant of Newhall in Cheshire with manors in Staffordshire and other parts--and for his adhesion to King John, in that monarch's struggle with the insurrectionary barons, a royal grant of the lordship o fStorton in Warwickshire, part of the possessions of Roger de Summerville. In the first four years of King Henry III [1216-1220], he executed the office of sheriff for the counties of Salop and Stafford as deputy for his patron, the great Earl Ranulph. In the 10th of Henry III [1226], this Henry de Alditheley was appointed governor of the castles of Carmarthen and Cardigan and made sheriff the next year of the counties of Salop and Stafford and constable of the castles of Salop and Bridgenorth, which sheriffalty he held for five years. Upon his retirement from office, he had a confirmation of all such lands whereof he was then possessed as well those granted to him by Ranulph, Earl of Chester, and Nicholas de Verdon, as those in Ireland given him by Hugh de Lacy, Earl of Ulster, whose constable he was in that province. He subsequently obtained divers other territorial grants from the crown, but, notwithstanding, when Richard Mareschall, Earl of Pembroke, rebelled and made an incursion into Wales, the king, Henry III, thought it prudent to secure the persons of this Henry and all the other barons-marchers. He was afterwards, however, constituted governor of Shrewsbury in place of John de Lacy, Earl of Lincoln, and, on the death of John, Earl of Chester, governor of the castle of Chester, and also that of Beeston, then called the "Castle on the Rock," and soon after made governor of Newcastle-under-Lyne. This powerful feudal baron m. Bertred, dau. of Ralph de Meisnil-warin, of Cheshire, and had a son, James, and a dau., Emme, who m. Griffith ap Madoc, Lord of Bromefield, a person of great power in Wales. He d. in 1236, having founded and endowed the Abbey of Hilton near to his castle at Heleigh, in Staffordshire, for Cistercian monks, and was s. by his son, James de Alditheley.

Henry married Bertrade de Mainwaring in 1217. Bertrade (daughter of Ralph Mainwaring and Amicia de Meschines) died after 1248; was buried in Hulton Abbey, Staffordshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1249
• Alternate death: Aft 3 Nov 1249

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1208, of Amesbury, Wiltshire, England
• Alternate birth: Abt 1212
• Alternate death: 7 Feb 1250, Mansourah, Egypt
• Alternate death: 8 Feb 1250, Mansourah, Egypt

Notes:

Killed on crusade, at the Battle of Mansourah.

William married Idoine de Camville after Apr 1216. Idoine (daughter of Richard de Camville and Eustache Basset) was born before 1206; died between 1 Jan 1251 and 21 Sep 1251. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 21 Sep 1252

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1249

Notes:

"Ivor West stated, in June 2002, that Elis IV and his sister Bertha were the children of Elis III by an unknown wife, not by Maud." [Chris Phillips, Some Corrections and Additions to the Complete Peerage.]

From Complete Peerage V:639:

Sir John Giffard, of Brimpsfield, Badgeworth, Stonehouse, Stoke Gifford, and Rockhampton, co. Gloucester, Elston, Orcheston St. George, Sherrington, Ashton, and Broughton Gifford, Wilts, son and heir of Sir Elis Giffard, of Brimpsfield, &c. (who died shortly before 2 May 1248) (c), by his 2nd wife, Alice, sister of Sir John Mautravers, of Lytchet Matravers, Dorset.

(c) In 1221 this Elis stated that "Osbertus Giffard, antecessor suusqui venit ad conquestum Angl' tenuit manerium de Bimesfeld' . . . et post eum Elias flius suus . . . et post eum Elias filius illius Elieet pater suus." At least one generation is here omitted. The Elis living in 1221 was son and heir of Elis III, by Maud, daughter of Morice fitz Robert fitz Hardinge, of Berkeley: which Elis III owed 100 marks 'pro fine terre sue' in 1166 and died before Michaelmas 1190, when William le Mareschal owed 140 marks for the custody of the lands of Elis Giffard. Elis III was son and heir of Elis II (who became a monk in Gloucester Abbey), by Berta (living 1167), sister of Walter de Clifford, of Clifford and Glasbury, and daughter of Richard fitz Ponce. In 1130 Elis II rendered account of 100 marks of silver for the relief of his father's lands, being son and heir of Elis I, by Ala, his wife. Before 1096 Elis I had succeeded his father Osbern Giffard, the Domesday tenant of Brimpsfield, Stoke, Rockhampton, Elston, Orcheston, etc.

Elias married Alice Mautravers before 1231. Alice (daughter of John Mautravers and Hawise) was born in of Lytchett Mautravers, Dorset, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

From Complete Peerage V:640:

Sir John Giffard, of Brimpsfield, Badgeworth, Stonehouse, Stoke Gifford, and Rockhampton, co. Gloucester, Elston, Orcheston St. George, Sherrington, Ashton, and Broughton Gifford, Wilts, son and heir of Sir Elis Giffard, of Brimpsfield, &c. (who died shortly before 2 May 1248), by his 2nd wife, Alice, sister of Sir John Mautravers, of Lytchet Matravers, Dorset (a).

(a) John Mautravers gave the manor of Ashton and the advowson of the church of St. Peter at Codford, Wilts, to Elis Giffard in free marriage with Alice his sister, to hold to them and their heirs of their bodies, by the service of a knight's fee.

Notes:

Sheriff of Herefordshire 1215-16. Constable of Carmarthen and Cardigan castles in 1228. Fought in Ireland, 1210, and in Wales, 1257, 1258, 1260, and 1263.

Called Walter III de Clifford by many of the sources cited here, but Peter Stewart (citation details below) says that this represents a conflation of III and IV, and that it was IV whose second wife was Margred ferch Llywellyn of Wales who was the mother of his heiress.

Walter married Margaret ferch Llywelyn before 2 Nov 1234. Margaret (daughter of Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth and (One of the several mistresses of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth)) died in 1265. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1268

Notes:

Also known as Marared; Margred; Margaret of Wales; Margaret of North Wales.

Notes on the parentage of Gwladus and Margaret, daughters of Llwelyn ap Fawr:

Complete Peerage (IX: 276) and Royal Ancestry both give Gwladus as a daughter of Joan of England. Royal Ancestry gives Margaret as an illegitimate daughter of Llywelyn.

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says that Joan was "probably" the mother of Gwladus and Margaret.

In The American Genealogist 41:99 (1965), Walter Lee Sheppard notes that "DNB's account gives Joan only the son David with Helen as probable. Lloyd's History of Wales [...] includes a chart so drawn as to make the maternity of the daughters questionable, and omits Angharad altogether. Prof. Thomas Jones Pierce in his article on Joan in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography names David, but does not mention the daughters at all; but then his cited sources are ony DNB and Lloyd's History of Wales in earlier editions. The correspondence of the writer with Sir Anthony Richard Wagner, Garter Principal King of Arms, however, indicates that all these daughters, with the exception of Gwladys, have been accepted by Major Francis Jones, best known authority on Welsh pedigrees, and based on British Museum Manuscript Add. 15041, on folio 12a, which shows Joan to be mother of David, Gwenlian, Angharad, and Margaret. It is interesting to note that [Complete Peerage] 9:276, under Mortimer of Wigmore, identifies Gwaldys as Joan's daughter."

Later in the same publication, TAG 41:22, Sheppard provides an addendum, first quoting a letter from E. D. Jones, Librarian of the National Library of Wales: "Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt, a reliable seventeenth century authority, makes Gwladys full sister to Gruffydd, therefore the daughter of Tangwystl. He makes Gwenllian, Angharad and Marred (Margaret) to be daughters of Joan. I am inclined to accept the view that Gwladys Ddu was the daughter of Tangwystl, but in the absence of contemporary records it is not wise to be too dogmatic." Sheppard then continues: "Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCVO, Garter Principal King of Arms, in a letter to the writer dated 24 Sept. 1964, states that he would accept Margaret as Joan's daughter and, presumably, the other daughters, except Gwladys. He refers to Major Francis Jones and the previously cited British Museum Additional MS, which shows Joan to be mother of David, and points out that the chronology also fits."

Peter C. Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (1974-83, searchable here; use the search term "Gruffudd ap Cynan 04"), gives Tangwystl as the mother of Gwladus and Joan as the probable mother of Margaret.

William Addams Reitwiesner's "The Children of Joan, Princess of North Wales," in The Genealogist 1:80, Spring 1980, argues that we have no certain basis for regarding Joan as the mother of any of Llywelyn's daughters.

On 9 April 1999, Douglas Richardson posted the following to SGM: "As for the Welsh tradition that any son, legitimate or otherwise, could make a claim to succeed Llywelyn, you may recall that Llywelyn and his son, David, went out of their way to have David recognized as Llywelyn's sole heir, to the exclusion of Llywelyn's illegitimate sons. To accomplish this, they had Llywelyn's wife, Joan, legitimized. The legitimization of Joan was no small feat seeing she was surely born out of wedlock to King John's mistress. Also, they sent David to England to be recognized as Llywelyn's sole heir by the English overlord, David's own uncle, King Henry III. Interestingly, the records of this trip show that David was accompanied by none other than his sister, Gladys. Due to the nature of this trip, it seems odd that Gladys would accompany David on this trip, UNLESS she too was a legitimate child of Llywelyn and Joan. These two pieces of evidence convince me that Gladys was legitimate."

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Between 1201 and 1211

Adam married Emma fitz Ralph about 1170. Emma (daughter of Ralph fitz Orm) was born in of Darlaston, Staffordshire, England; died before Nov 1246. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1201

Notes:

Also called Ralph Mesnilwarin; Ralph de Mednil War.

Justice of Chester. Seneschal of Chester.

Ralph married Amicia de Meschines about 1179. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Amice of Chester. Her legitimacy was the subject of a lengthy seventeenth-century controversy which can be read, in all its magnificently florid language, here.

It seems to us entirely plausible that Amicia was Hugh's legitimate daughter by an unknown earlier wife. The Earl's behavior toward Amicia, and the attitude shown by all their contemporaries -- to say nothing of the illustrious guests recorded as having attended Amicia's wedding to Ralph Mainwairing -- are all consistent with Amicia being legitimate. It's far from impossible that history should have lost track of the identity of a twelfth-century magnate's short-lived first wife. We don't even have firm knowledge of the birth dates of some post-Conquest English kings.

A summary of the issues, from Burke's Dormant and Extinct Peerages:

The earl had another dau., whose legitimacy is questionable, namely Amicia,* m. to Ralph de Mesnilwarin, justice of Chester, "a person," says Dugdale, "of very ancient family," from which union the Mainwarings, of Over Peover, in the co. Chester, derive. Dugdale considers Amicia to be a dau. of the earl by a former wife. But Sir Peter Leicester, in his Antiquities of Chester, totally denies her legitimacy. "I cannot but mislike," says he, "the boldness and ignorance of that herald who gave to Mainwaring (late of Peover), the elder, the quartering of the Earl of Chester's arms; for if he ought of right to quarter that coat, then must he be descended from a co-heir to the Earl of Chester; but he was not; for the co-heirs of Earl Hugh married four of the greatest peers in the kingdom."

(*) Upon the question of this lady's legitimacy there was a long paper war between Sir Peter Leicester and Sir Thomas Mainwaring -- and eventually the matter was referred to the judges, of whose decision Wood says, "at an assize held at Chester, 1675, the controversy was decided by the justices itinerant, who, as I have heard, adjudged the right of the matter to Mainwaring."

The passage from Dugdale that evidently occasioned Sir Peter Leycester's astonishment and disbelief, from his Baronage of England, 1675, reprinted by Georg Olms Verlag, Hildesheim & New York, 1977; Earls of Chester, pp. 40-41:

[I]t is certain that [Sir Hugh] had another Daughter called Amicia, married to Raphe de Mesnilwarin (a person of a very ancient Family, and Justice of Chester, in those days) whose Legitimacy is doubted by some; the cheif reason they give for it, being, that they find no Memorial, that Earl Hugh her Father had a former Wife.

That she was his Daughter, sufficiently appeareth, not only from his Grant of two Knight Fees with her in Frank-marriage, unto Raphe de Mesnilwarin before mentioned, where he so termeth her. But by another Deed of Roger de Mesnilwarin her Son, wherein he calls Ranulph, Earl of Chester, (Son to this Earl) his Uncle.

As to her Legitimacy, therefore I do not well understand how there can be any question, it being known Maxim in Law, that nothing can be given in Frank-marriage to a Bastard.

The Point being then thus briefly cleared, I shall not need to raise further Arguments from Probabilities to back it, then to desire it may be observed, that Bertra (whom I conclude to have been his second Wife) was married to him, when he was in years, and she, herself, very young, as is evident from what I have before instanced. So that he having been Earl no less then twenty eight years, it must necessarily follow, that this Bertra was not born, till four years after he came to the Earldom. Nor is it any marvel he should then take such a young Wife, having at that time no Issue-male to succeed him in this he great Inheritance."

From Palatine Anthology: A Collection of Ancient Poems and Ballads Relating to Lancashire and Chester ed. James Orchard Halliwell (London: 1850):

The following old ballad relates to a famous dispute between two Cheshire knights, Sir Peter Leycester and Sir Thomas Mainwaring, about the legitimacy of Amicia, daughter of Hugh Lupus. The worthy knights were related by marriage, and the controversy agitated the county for many years, and was hardly settled by the death of one of the principal controversialists. Communicated to me by Mr. W. H. BLACK.

A new Ballad, made of a high and mighty Controversy between two Cheshire Knights, 1673.

(From the ASHMOLEAN MSS. No. 860, iii, art. 1, and No. 836, art. 183.)

Two famous wights, both Cheshire Knights,
Thomas yclep'd and Petre,
A quarrel had, which was too bad
As bad as is my metre.

Neere kinsmen were they, yet had a great fray,
Concerning things done quondam;
I think as long since as Will Rufus was Prince,
E'en about their Great-great-grandame.

Sir Peter (good man) this quarell began:
Whilst he tumbles ore ancient deedes,
Old women can't have quiet rest in their graves,
So loud he proclaims what he reades.

When in reading he found (as he thought) good ground
To judge his Grannam a bastard;
Though he blemisht her name, yet it to proclaim
He resolv'd hee'd be no dastard.

But boldly durst say, that AMICIA
Daughter of Hugh Earle of Chester
For certaine was bore to him . . . .
As sure as his name was Leycester.

To this good intent he us'd much argument
The which all such as are willing
Fully to know, let them quickly bestow
Upon his Booke sixteene shilling.

His Grannam's his friend; yet truth hee'l defend
And little dirt he throws on her,
For as now, so then, among your great men,
A bastard is small dishonour.

Another grandchild, hearing this was stark wild,
The affront he could not digest;
But takes pen in hand, the same to withstand,
As scorning to fowl his own nest.

His Grannam hee'l right, against the erring Knight,
That slander'd her without warrant:
Who does not his best, to free ladies opprest,
Is not a true Knight Errant.

Hist'ry and lawes he cites for his cause,
With Judges and Heraldes; what more?
With these hee'l defy the scandalous lye
That made him . . . . .

They us'd not their swords, but their pens and fowl words,
Which noyse with other folks laughter,
Could not chuse to awake (to clere this mistake)
The jolly old Earl and his daughter.

Then up start[s] Earl Hughe, and sayes "Is it true--
That I, brave Chester's Earle,
Am summon'd to appear before Justices here,
As charg'd with a by-blow girle?"

Not another word, but clapt hand on his sword;
While she (gentle AMICIA)
For feare of some slaughter that might come after,
Besought him in patience to stay.

But she told her Grandson, "'Twas uncivilly done
Such a hideous pudder to keep:
Whilst he dreams that folks soules do snort in dark holes
To awake us out of our sleep.

"Should it have been true, that's suspected by you,
Its father was able to nourish
The barne he had got, and sure I should not
Have been any charge to the parish.

"But you, dear Sir Thomas, (much honor to your domus)
That my cause you have so well defended;
Henceforth leave AMICIA, both keepe Amicitia;
And so let the quarell be ended."

All this said, the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography also notes that "[t]he feud, however, was not merely a dispute over genealogical and legal niceties, but reflected the division on the Cheshire bench between those like Leycester who sought a rigorous enforcement of the Act of Uniformity and the Conventicle Acts and those such as Mainwaring who opposed this policy."

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1175
• Alternate birth: Between 1175 and 1180
• Alternate birth: Abt 1176
• Alternate death: 7 Mar 1226, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England

Notes:

Earl of Salisbury. Among the advisors to King John at Runnymede.

Lieutenant of Gascony 1202; Seneschal of Avranches 1203; Constable of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports 1204-6; Sheriff of Wiltshire 1204-7, 1213-26; Lord of the Honour and Castle of Eye 1205; Cheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 1212-21; Sheriff of Shropshire and Staffordshire 1223-4; Constable of Portchester, Southampton, and Winchester Castle 1224; Keeper of the March of Wales.

Yes, there really were two Ida de Longespees, and they were sisters. SGM post:

From: Douglas Richardson Subject: Parentage of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT)

There has been discussion in the past on the newsgroup regarding the placement of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the Longespée family tree. Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub FitzWalter) identifies Ida as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl of Salisbury." The William Longespée intended here is presumably William Longespée I who died in 1226, not his son, William II, who died in 1250. If so, this would give Earl William Longespée I and his wife, Ela, two adult daughters named Ida, one of whom married Walter Fitz Robert, and the other who married William de Beauchamp. Curiously Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.

The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, as a Longespée has traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found in Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children of William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of Salisbury, including:

"Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum") [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].

It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is here styled Ida de Camyle in this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the Camville family.

There are two contemporary records which prove that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The first record comes from List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer, which source contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:

"152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide. [1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].

Elsewhere I find that Calendar of Liberate Rolls 5 (1961): 93 likewise refers to Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, as "Ida Lungespee:"

Date: 11 May 1162 -- "Liberate to Geoffrey de Lezinan, the king's brother, 40l. in recompense of a like sum received there of the issues of the manor of Henham [Essex] by the hands of Ida Lungespee." END OF QUOTE.

To date to my knowledge no one has discovered Ida Longespée's maritagium, although she certainly had one in marriage. Recently I encountered a record which evidently concerns her maritagium. The record in question is a Wiltshire pleading which dates from 1249:

"Walter son of Robert and Ida his wife, by Ida's attorney by writ of the present king, who brought an assize of novel disseisin against William Lungepeie for holdings in Scepperingge and Heniton, Farlegh' and Bidinham, have come and withdrawn by licence. It is agreed between them that Walter and Ida had put themselves utterly in William's grace for those holdings." [Reference: Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 26) (1971): 152].

The lands involved in this lawsuit can be identified as Sheepbridge (in Swallowfield), Hinton (in Hurst), Farley [Hill] (in Swallowfield), and Diddenham (in Shinfield), all in modern Berkshire but formerly in Wiltshire. These lands were apparently held by William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela.

VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 267-274 states that Sheepbridge "belonged with Hinton in 1236 to Ela, Countess of Salisbury." Countess Ela named here was the widow of William Longespée I. VCH's statement regarding Countess Ela's holding of these lands is based on a charter found in Calendar of Charter Rolls 1226 - 57, page 221, whereby the king confirmed a grant of Countess Ela of various lands to Lacock Abbey, in exchange for "10 l. yearly receivable ...... .of the manors of Shiperige and Henton, and the advowson of the church of Winterburn Shyreveton."

The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1dELAQA AIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=Calendar+Charter+Rolls+1226&hl=en&ei=M-U4TrbTFYvXiALj163DDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Calendar%20Charter%20Rolls%201226&f=false

Countess Ela's charter is undated but surely must date from around 1236. My files notes show the following information:

"In Feb. 1236 her son and heir, William Longespée, guaranteed her gifts to Lacock Abbey, while she agreed to surrender all her lands, rents and rights to him on 1 Nov. following. On 25 Oct. 1236 Ela, Countess of Salisbury, reached agreement with William Longespée, her first born son, that she may grant a moiety of the manor of Heddington, Wiltshire to Lacock Priory, which property fell to her on the death of Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex and Hereford. In the winter 1236 - 7 she resigned her custody of the county of Wiltshire. She subsequently entered her religious foundation at Lacock, where she took the veil before spring 1238." END OF QUOTE FROM MY FILE NOTES.

Following Countess Ela's surrender of her lands to her son, William Longespée II, he in turn granted the four properties in question, namely Sheepbridge, Hinton, Farley, and Diddenham, to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. The date of this grant is sometime before 1239-40.

In that year Sir Henry de la Mare was involved in a legal action concerning these four properties. A reference to this lawsuit may be found in Maitland, Bracton's Note Book 3 (1887): 286 - 287. This may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DtcQAAA AYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:LtFTiI1NIsEC&hl=en&ei=nmw5TsSXK42IsAKv3OEg&sa=X&oi=book_result &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

So the question arises: When did Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida Longespée, acquire their interest in the four properties? The answer to that question is not exact but surely it must have dated from the time that Countess Ela of Salisbury was holding these properties and before 1 Nov. 1236 when Countess Ela surrendered all her lands, rents, and rights to her son, William Longespée II. Walter and Ida can't have acquired their interest from William Longespée II, as once his mother released her lands to him, he almost immediately conveyed these four properties to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. One of these properties, Hinton, subsequently descended to Sir Henry de la Mare's daughter and heiress, Maud, wife of Peter de Montfort, and thence to her descendants [see VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 247 - 260].

So besides knowing that Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespée obtained their interest in the properties before 1236, what else can we know? More specifically, why would Ida claim these lands, if her brother had granted them to his seneschal?

The answer to this question is not clear but a reasonable guess would be that these four properties were put up as Ida's maritagium when she was contracted to marry a Camville and that when the contracted Camville marriage failed to materialize or produced no issue, by the terms of the marriage contract, the lands returned to Ida's family. At that point, Ida's claim to the lands was essentially voided. This in turn would explain why Ida's brother, William Longespée II, felt free to grant these lands elsewhere to Sir Henry de la Mare.

In summary, adequate evidence has been located which indicates that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was a Longespée. In 1249 Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida, sued William Longespée II regarding four properties then in Wiltshire, but now in Berkshire. The four properties in question were apparently part of the inheritance of Ida's mother, Countess Ela, who appears to have controlled the lands until 1236, when she released her lands to her son, William Longespée II. Ida's rights must predate 1236, as William Longespée II almost immediately conveyed these properties before 1239-40 to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. Thus William Longespée II can not have offered them as Ida's maritagium. This in turn implies that Ida Longespée was the daughter of William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela, and not William Longespée II.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert:

Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Symon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Yale.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

William married Ela of Salisbury before Sep 1197. Ela (daughter of William fitz Patrick and Eleanor de Vitré) was born about 1191 in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England; died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Ela fitz William. Founded the abbey at Laycock, 1238; abbess, 1240-57. Buried "in the convent choir beneath the altar." [Royal Ancestry]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1230

Richard married Eustache Basset in 1200. Eustache (daughter of Gilbert Basset and Egeline de Courtenay) died before 1215. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1216

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: of Brimpsfield, Cirencester, Gloucestershire, England

Notes:

"Elis III m. Maud, daughter of Morice fitz Robert fitz Hardinge, of Berkeley: which Elis III owed 100 marks 'pro fine terre sue' in 1166 and died before Michaelmas 1190, when William le Mareschal owed 140 marks for the custody of the lands of Elis Giffard. Elis III was son and heir of Elis II (who became a monk in Gloucester Abbey), by Berta (living 1167), sister of Walter de Clifford, of Clifford and Glasbury, and daughter of Richard fitz Ponce. In 1130 Elis II rendered account of 100 marks of silver for the relief of his father's lands, being son and heir of Elis I, by Ala, his wife. Before 1096 Elis I had succeeded his father Osbern Giffard, the Domesday tenant of Brimpsfield, Stoke, Rockhampton, Elston, Orcheston, etc." [Complete Peerage V:639, note (c)]

Elias married (Unknown wife of Elias III Giffard). [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1221
• Alternate death: 1221

Notes:

Also called Malus Transitus, for reasons not clear to us.

"John Mautravers, brother of Walter, and eldest surviving son and heir of John; a knight of William, Earl Marshal, took part with the Barons in 1215, but returned to his allegiance in 1217; he was named in commissions in Dorset and Wilts, 1219 and August 1220; he was dead before the end of 1220. He married Hawise, who was living in 1222." [Complete Peerage VIII:578]

John married Hawise. Hawise died after 1221. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1222

Notes:

"The Great." Prince of Wales; Prince of Aberffraw; Lord of Snowden. Died as a Cistercian monk.

Llywelyn married (One of the several mistresses of Llywelyn ap Iorwerth). [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Gave a third of Nether Tabley to Chester Abbey in the reign of Henry II.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 1147, Merionethshire, Wales

Notes:

Earl of Chester. Also known as Hugh le Meschin; Hugh de Meschines; Hugh of Kevelioc; Hugh de Cyveiliog.

1908 DNB entry on Hugh of Kevelioc:

[By Thomas Frederick Tout.]

HUGH (D. 1181) called HUGH of CYVEILIOG, palatine Earl of Chester, was the son of Ranulf II, Earl of Chester, and of his wife Matilda, daughter of Earl Robert of Gloucester, the illegitimate son of Henry I. He is sometimes called Hugh of Cyveiliog, because, according to a late writer, he was born in that district of Wales (Powel, Hist. of Cambria, p. 295). His father died on 16 Dec. 1153, whereupon, being probably still under age, he succeeded to his possessions on both sides of the Channel. These included the hereditary viscounties of Avranches and Bayeux. Hugh was present at the council of Clarendon in January 1164 which drew up the assize of Clarendon (Stubbs, Select Charters, p. 138). In 1171 he was in Normandy (Eyton, Itinerary of Henry II, p. 158).

Hugh joined the great feudal revolt against Henry II in 1173. Aided by Ralph of Fougeres, he utilised his great influence on the north-eastern marches of Brittany to excite the Bretons to revolt. Henry II despatched an army of Brabant mercenaries against them. The rebels were defeated in a battle, and on 20 Aug. were shut up in the castle of Dol, which they had captured by fraud not long before. On 23 Aug. Henry II arrived to conduct the siege in person (Hoveden, ii. 51). Hugh and his comrades had no provisions (Jordan Fantosme in Howlett, Chron. of Stephen, Henry II, and Richard I, iii. 221). They were therefore forced to surrender on 26 Aug. on a promise that their lives and limbs would be saved (W. Newburgh in Howlett, i. 176). Fourscore knights surrendered with them (Diceto, i. 378). Hugh was treated very leniently by Henry, and was confined at Falaise, whither the Earl and Countess of Leicester were also soon brought as prisoners. When Henry II returned to England, he took the two earls with him. They were conveyed from Barfleur to Southampton on 8 July 1174. Hugh was probably afterwards imprisoned at Devizes (Eyton, p. 180). On 8 Aug., however, he was taken back from Portsmouth to Barfleur, when Henry II went back to Normandy. He was now imprisoned at Caen, whence he was removed to Falaise. He was admitted to terms with Henry before the general peace, and witnessed the peace of Falaise on 11 Oct. (Fœdera, i. 31).

Hugh seems to have remained some time longer without complete restoration. At last, at the council of Northampton on 13 Jan. 1177, he received grant of the lands on both sides of the sea which he had held fifteen days before the war broke out (Benedictus, i. 135; Hoveden, ii. 118). In March he witnessed the Spanish award. In May, at the council at Windsor, Henry II restored him his castles, and required him to go to Ireland, along with William Fitzaldhelm and others, to prepare the way for the king's son John (Benedictus, i. 161). But no great grants of Irish land were conferred on him, and he took no prominent part, in the Irish campaigns. He died at Leek in Staffordshire on 30 June 1181 (ib. i. 277; Monasticon, iii. 218; Ormerod, Cheshire, i. 29). He was buried next his father on the south side of the chapter-house of St. Werburgh's, Chester, now the cathedral.

Hugh's liberality to the church was not so great as that of his predecessors. He granted some lands in Wirral to St. Werburgh's, and four charters of his, to Stanlaw, St. Mary's, Coventry, the nuns of Bullington and Greenfield, are printed by Ormerod (i. 27). He also confirmed his mother's grants to her foundation of Austin Canons at Calke, Derbyshire, and those of his father to his convent of the Benedictine nuns of St. Mary's, Chester (Monasticon, vi. 598, iv. 314). In 1171 he had confirmed the grants of Ranulf to the abbey of St. Stephen's in the diocese of Bayeux (Eyton, p. 158). More substantial were his grants of Bettesford Church to Trentham Priory, and of Combe in Gloucestershire to the abbey of Bordesley, Warwickshire (Monasticon, vi. 397, v. 407).

Hugh married before 1171 Bertrada, the daughter of Simon III, surnamed the Bald, count of Evreux and Montfort. He was therefore brother-in-law to Simon of Montfort., the conqueror of the Albigenses, and uncle of the Earl of Leicester. His only legitimate son, Ranulf III, succeeded him as Earl of Chester [see Blundevill, Randulf de]. He also left four daughters by his wife, who became, on their brother's death, co-heiresses of the Chester earldom. They were: (1) Maud, who married David, earl of Huntingdon, and became the mother of John the Scot, earl of Chester from 1232 to 1237, on whose death the line of Hugh of Avranches became extinct; (2) Mabel, who married William of Albini, earl of Arundel (d. 1221); (3) Agnes, the wife of William, earl Ferrers of Derby; and (4) Hawise, who married Robert de Quincy, son of Saer de Quincy, earl of Winchester. Hugh was also the father of several bastards, including Pagan, lord of Milton; Roger; Amice, who married Ralph Mainwaring, justice of Chester; and another daughter who married R. Bacon, the founder of Roucester (Ormerod, i. 28). A great controversy was carried on between Sir Peter Leycester and Sir Thomas Mainwaring, Amice's reputed descendant, as to whether that lady was legitimate or not. Fifteen pamphlets and small treatises on the subject, published between 1673 and 1679, were reprinted in the publications of the Chetham Society, vols. lxxiii. lxxix. and lxxx. Mainwaring was the champion of her legitimacy, which Leycester had denied in his 'Historical Antiquities.' Dugdale believed that Amice was the daughter of a former wife of Hugh, of whose existence, however, there is no record. A fine seal of Earl Hugh's is engraved in Ormerod's 'Cheshire,' i. 32.

[Benedictus Abbas and Roger de Hoveden (both ed. Stubbs in Rolls Ser.); Howlett's Chronicles of Stephen, Henry II, and Richard I (Rolls Ser.); Eyton's Itinerary of Hen. II; Ormerod's Cheshire, i. 26-32; Dugdale's Baronage, i. 40-1; Dugdale's Monasticon, ed. Ellis, Caley, and Bandinel; Doyle's Official Baronage, i. 364; Beamont's introduction to the Amicia Tracts, Chetham Soc.]

[DNB, Editor, Sidney Lee, Macmillan Co., London & Smith, Elder & Co., NY, 1908, vol. x, pp. 164-5]

Hugh married (Unknown first wife of Hugh of Chester). [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Or mistress. See the 17th-century controversy over her origins, discussed in the entry for their daughter Amicia.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 4 Mar 1133, Le Mans, Sarthe, Pays-de-la-Loire, France

Notes:

Also called Henry Fitz Empress; Henry Fitz Geoffrey.

Henry married Ida de Tony. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

From: Douglas Richardson
Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

[...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

From: Douglas Richardson
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

From: mississippienne@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

[...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

Notes:

Earl of Wiltshire, always styled Earl of Salisbury. Also called William of Salisbury.

According to CP, he may have died in Normandy.

William married Eleanor de Vitré about 1191. Eleanor (daughter of Robert III de Vitré and Emma de Dinan) died before 12 Aug 1233; was buried in Abbey of Mondaye, Bayeux, Calvados, Normandy, France. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 18 Aug 1233

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1214
• Alternate death: Bef Jan 1215

Notes:

Sheriff of Lincolnshire 1189, 1199-1205.

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says (without citing specific evidence) that he was the son of Richard de Camville's first wife, Alice/Adeliza.

John P. Ravilious argues otherwise: "[G]iven the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145."

But Douglas Richardson wrote on SGM, 9 Jan 2016, that "Contemporary records indicate that Richard de Camville had four sons, Gerard, Walter, William, and Richard, and two daughters, Maud and Isabel. Of these children, it would appear that the son Richard and the daughter Isabel (wife of Robert de Harcourt) were the only children by Richard de Camville's 2nd wife, Milicent de Rethel. This is deduced by the fact that Milicent de Rethel's lands at Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire (which she had by grant of her kinswoman, Queen Alice) were held after Milicent's death by the younger Richard de Camville. When the younger Richard de Camville died in 1191, he was succeeded briefly by his son and heir, John. It appears that John de Camville soon died without issue, and the lands at Stanton Harcourt reverted to his father Richard's sister, Isabel de Harcourt or her representative. Had Milicent de Rethel been the mother of the elder Richard de Camville's other sons, Stanton Harcourt would have fallen to them, ahead of Isabel Harcourt. The succession at Stanton Harcourt suggests that the younger Richard de Camville and Isabel de Harcourt were full sublings, and the only children of Milicent de Rethel by the elder Richard de Camville."

And Todd Farmerie, on 10 Jan 2016, backed up Richardson's argument: "It is not how Richard came to possess Stanton that suggests he was the only (surviving, with issue) son of Richard by Milicent, it is what happened at young Richard's demise. If there was another son of Richard by Milicent, that hypothetical son would have been heir to Richard. The fact that Stanton went to Isabel is strong evidence that none of the other Camville lines derive from the same parents. (Just as a reminder, there is a quirk to English inheritance law at this period, whereby only full-blood relationships qualify. Half-brothers, whether on the Camville or Marmion sides, would not be heirs of Richard unless specified as a reversion in the original grant.) The assumptions in this conclusion are 1) that Isabel inherited Stanton, rather than having been granted it by John, heir to her brother Richard, and 2) that when Milicent granted it to Richard, she did not set up a reversion that preferred Isabel to another (hypothetical) full sibling. As far as I know, neither of these is formally excluded but parsimony would favor the most straightforward reconstruction, that Isabel inherited from John, and thus she did not have any other full siblings."

Gerard married Nichole de la Haye before 1185. Nichole (daughter of Richard de la Haye and Maud de Vernon) was born in of Brattleby, Welton, Lincolnshire, England; died on 20 Nov 1230 in Swaton, North Kesteven, Lincolnshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1231

Notes:

"Acting as hereditary constable ('castellan') of Lincoln, she defended the city against the baronial opponents of King John under Earl William of Lincoln, 1216." [John P. Ravilious, citation details below, citing King John by W. L. Warren (Methuen, 1981).]

From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (citation details below):

The office of constable passed through her to each of her husbands, and in August 1189 she and Canville crossed to Barfleur, Normandy, to obtain a charter confirming their inheritance in both England and Normandy from King Richard. This included Lincoln Castle as it had been held by Nicola's father and grandfather. It is likely that the shrievalty of the county of Lincoln was also included in the grant, which cost Canville and Nicola 700 marks.

In 1191 Nicola was besieged with her husband at Lincoln Castle when he quarrelled with William de Longchamp (d. 1197), the chancellor and justiciar of England in Richard's absence. In 1194 she fined for the sum of 300 marks with King Richard to marry her daughter, Matilda, according to her will, excepting one of the king's enemies. She continued to account for this debt until 1212, having renegotiated the amount with King John in 1200, and in 1201 she still owed £20, 40 marks, and one palfrey. Nicola enjoyed a cordial relationship with the fickle John. According to a later tradition recorded nearly sixty years after the events, Nicola had met John when he went to Lincoln in 1216. Her husband had recently died, and she went to meet the king leaving the castle by the eastern postern gate with its keys in her hand. She offered them to John saying that she was of great age and unable to continue with the office any longer. John sought her out and said, 'My beloved Nicola, I will that you keep the castle as hitherto, until I shall order otherwise' (Rotuli hundredorum, 1.315). The king granted the shrievalty of Lincoln to Nicola and Philip Marc a few hours before his death on 18 October 1216. The ageing widow was besieged at Lincoln by the rebels under the leadership of Louis of France, and she held the castle for the royalists until she was relieved in 1217. One source alleges that she had been entrusted with the castle 'in exchange for money' and that the castle was relieved since it would have been considered 'dishonourable not to help so brave a lady' (Historical Collections of Walter of Coventry, 2.237–8). The Histoire de Guillaume le Mare?chal narrates that, before the attack by the royalist forces, Peter des Roches, bishop of Winchester, penetrated the castle by a secret route and met Nicola to reassure her that the siege would shortly be raised. She was apparently delighted to hear the news, and it seems that her intransigent defence of the castle facilitated a successful attack by the royalists which saw the rout of the rebel forces. The battle at Lincoln on 20 May 1217 was one of two decisive battles that ended the claim of Louis to the throne of England. The ending of the siege was followed by looting and sacrilege. Despite her alleged earlier protestations of age and incompetence, Nicola determinedly held on to the office in the face of repeated attempts by William (II) Longespée, the husband of her granddaughter Idonea and son of the earl of Salisbury, to eject her from it. In 1219 she is recorded as holding dower in Swaton, Lincolnshire, worth £20 annually. Nicola resigned the office of castellan in 1226 and died in Swaton on 20 November 1230.

From Women in Thirteenth-Century Lincolnshire (citation details below):

Significantly, in spite of her legal subordination to her husband, Nicholaa was actively involved in the management of her estates during this marriage. The strongest image of her working in partnership with Gerard can be found in the chronicle of Richard of Devizes and concerns the events of 1191. During the king's absence on crusade, Gerard de Camville became entangled in the violent dispute between the royal chancellor and John, count of Mortain. According to Richard of Devizes, while Gerard was with John, helping him to secure the castles of Nottingham and Tickhill, 'his wife, Nicholaa, not thinking about anything womanly, defended the castle manfully' ('uxor eius Nicolaa nichil femineum cogitans, castellum viriliter custodiebat') against the chancellor's forces. Richard's sympathetic description of Nicholaa's actions contrasts strongly with his less complimentary treatment of her husband: he had characterised Gerard de Camville earlier in his narrative as a 'factious man, prodigal of his allegiance' ('homo factiosus et fidei prodigus'). Richard's choice of language to describe Nicholaa's qualities as a military leader clearly implies that, although the role which she adopted was unusual for a woman, her performance in the author's eyes was all the more praiseworthy because of her sex. Yet it might also have been intended to highlight the less satisfactory conduct of Nicholaa's husband. It was certainly a wise move by Gerard to place Nicholaa, the living focus for loyalties to the la Haye family, in charge of Lincoln castle at a time when their standing in the locality was of paramount importance. Gerard's decision to leave Nicholaa, rather than a male deputy, in command of the garrison on this occasion indicates that she played an important role in the day-to-day running of her inheritance under more stable conditions. Lincoln was, after all, a particularly large and strategically significant castle, situated on a high ridge that looked out to the west over the Trent valley. The pipe roll for 1191 reveals that mercenary soldiers were employed for forty days on the siege of Lincoln castle. It was no mean feat on Nicholaa's part to withstand a siege for over a month. [...]

It was both a measure of Nicholaa's high esteem in [King] John's eyes and a sign of the desperate circumstances in which he found himself that on 18 October 1216, presumably just hours before his death, Nicholaa was appointed joint sheriff of Lincolnshire with Philip Mark. This appointment of a woman as a sheriff was unprecedented and needs explanation. Although Round found a near-contemporary case in Norfolk where a woman, Margaret de Caisneto, had apparently carried her late father's claim to the shrievalty to her second husband, there is no evidence that she ever held or exercised the duties associated with this office in her own right. Nicholaa's appointment might, however, have helped to set a precedent. Ela, the widowed countess of Salisbury, served as sheriff of Wiltshire in 1227-8 and 1231-7, and even appeared at the exchequer in person at Michaelmas 1236 to render account. The reasoning behind King John's apparent disregard for convention in Nicholaa's case emerges from the political conditions in Lincolnshire in 1216. William Morris, commenting on the immediate aftermath of Magna Carta, observed, 'To hold the counties at such a time required strong men'. Many of the men who might otherwise have been appointed sheriff under more peaceful conditions either were or recently had been in rebellion against the king. Thomas of Moulton, Gerard de Camville's successor to the shrievalty in 1205, was one example, and Alexander of Pointon, who accounted as sheriff to the exchequer at Michaelmas 1213, was another. Simon III of Kyme, a similarly experienced former royal administrator, also opposed John. Although Nicholaa's son and heir, Richard, was still alive in 1216 and had attained his majority, his untimely death in early March 1217 suggests that he was already suffering from poor health which prevented his emergence as a viable candidate. In any case, Richard had already forged a career in Leicestershire, Warwickshire and Oxfordshire, administering his inheritance from his father and the estates of his wife, Eustachia Basset. Nicholaa was a woman but at least she possessed an association with the shrievalty of Lincolnshire through her second husband, Gerard, and had enjoyed an opportunity to observe the workings of the office at first hand. The combination of Nicholaa's experience in managing and defending Lincoln castle, and the autonomy that she enjoyed as a widow, also made her a viable appointee. Hence her description by the 'Barnwell' chronicler as a 'matron' ('matrona'), a term that reflected both Nicholaa's standing and maturity.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1205

Notes:

Sheriff of Oxfordshire, 1200-1.

Gilbert married Egeline de Courtenay. Egeline (daughter of Reynold de Courtenay and (Unknown first wife of Reynold de Courtenay)) died in 1214. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1219

Notes:

VCH Oxfordshire (VI: 21, 325) and VCH Buckinghamshire (IV: 114) make her the daughter of Reynold de Courtenay who d. 1194, but RA makes them siblings.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1162

Notes:

Became a monk in Gloucester Abbey.

Elias married Bertha de Clifford. Bertha (daughter of Richard fitz Pons and Maud of Gloucester) was born in of Clifford, Herefordshire, England; died after 1167. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Complete Peerage VIII includes a two-page "Chart Pedigree (Partly Conjectural) of Mautravers" following page 576. In it this John Mautravers' father is conjectured as another John who appears on Somerset and Wiltshire pipe rolls from 1158 to 1169. This older John's father may have been Walter Mautravers who was fined for his wife's inheritance in Leicestershire and appears in other records in Berkshire. His father was likely a younger Hugh Mautravers, not the Domesday tenant but a son of the same who have land near Preston, Somerset to Montacute Priory. His father was the aforesaid Hugh who held "Lytchett (afterwards Lytchett Mautravers), Woolcombe, and other manors in Dorset and Wilts, land at Yeovil, &c., Somerset, and in Gloucestershire, from William, Count of Eu; in Somerset he also held Preston, &c., from Alfred de Ispania."

John married Alice Fitz Geoffrey. Alice (daughter of Roger Fitz Geoffrey) died before 1181. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Bef 1173
• Alternate death: 1216
• Alternate death: Abt Jan 1222
• Alternate death: Bef 22 Jan 1222
• Alternate death: 22 Jan 1222

Notes:

Sheriff of Herefordshire.

Walter married Agnes de Condet about 1185. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Alice; also called de Condy, de Cundi.

Notes:

Drwyndwn, "flatnose."

Iorwerth married Margred ferch Madog. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Marared of Powys.