William de Say

Family/Spouse: Elizabeth. Elizabeth died after 1307. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Geoffrey de Say was born between 1279 and 1281 in of West Greenwich, Kent, England; died before 3 Mar 1322.

William married Sibyl. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Magna Carta surety.

Geoffrey married Hawise de Clare before 1215. Hawise (daughter of Richard de Clare and Amice of Gloucester) died after 1234. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Geoffrey married Alice de Cheyne before 1180. Alice (daughter of John de Cheyne) died after 1184. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1155
• Alternate death: Nov 1217
• Alternate death: 28 Nov 1217

Notes:

Earl of Hertford and of Gloucester. Also styled Earl of Clare.

Along with his son Gilbert, he was one of the 25 Magna Carta sureties.

Richard married Amice of Gloucester about 1180. Amice (daughter of William fitz Robert and Hawise of Leicester) died on 1 Jan 1225. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Amice fitz William.

According to RA, she was not "recognized" before her death as "Countess of Gloucester," despite CP's assertion to this effect. All contemporary charters and other documents involving her refer to her as countess of Clare, i.e., Hertford.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aug 1147
• Alternate death: Abt 1155

Notes:

Allegedly killed at the siege of Burwell Castle. But: "Complete Peerage, vol. 11, p. 464, notes that Henry of Huntingdon says he and Geoffrey de Mandeville, earl of Essex, were killed in August 1144, but note (f) summarises evidence that William survived Geoffrey (who did not die until September 1144). Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, p. 681, refers to the same evidence as proving his survival 'by a few years', and dates his death to c. 1155 (although elsewhere she repeats the traditional date)." [Some Corrections and Additions to the Complete Peerage]

William married Beatrice de Mandeville. Beatrice (daughter of William I de Mandeville and Margaret fitz Eudes) was born about 1105; died before 19 Apr 1197 in Rickling, Saffron, Essex, England; was buried in Walden Abbey, Essex, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1100

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Aft 1115, of Clare, Herefordshire, England

Notes:

Also called Roger Fitz Richard. 2nd Earl of Hertford, but generally styled Earl of Clare.

Roger married Maud de St. Hilary. Maud (daughter of James de St. Hilary du Harcourt and Aveline) was born in of Field Dalling, Norfolk, England; died on 24 Dec 1193; was buried in Priory of Great Carbrooke, Norfolk, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1195

Notes:

Also called Maud de St. Hilaire du Harcouet.

Notes:

Earl of Gloucester. Governor of Wareham Castle, 1144.

"After Henry II's accession in 1154 William's status with his royal cousin began to change. The honour of Eudo Dapifer, which Henry had earlier promised to the earl's son, was given to another. Gloucester understandably yielded place of honour at court to members of the royal family like the king's brother William, and even to Robert, earl of Leicester, who was chief justiciar; but William was also regularly outranked by his uncle, Reginald, earl of Cornwall, who held no central administrative office. In the 1150s there is evidence of a certain ambivalence in Henry's government about Gloucester's right to be exempted from geld and other remittances. The earl's infrequent court appearances indicate that he was becoming a political outsider. Even though he was ultimately favoured by the bountiful royal fiscal patronage accorded to members of his class, served as a royal justice, and was promised that he would enjoy all the estates his father had held, William was to die with his career, earldom, and house in ruins." [Oxford Dictionary of National Biography]

William married Hawise of Leicester about 1150. Hawise (daughter of Robert of Meulan and Amice de Gael) died on 24 Apr 1197. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Hawise de Beaumont.

Jordan married Lucy de Rumilly. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Lucy de Aulnay.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1130

Notes:

Also called William de Magnivil. Constable of the Tower of London, and thus keeper of the first person known to have been imprisoned there for political reasons, Ranulf Flambard.

William married Margaret fitz Eudes. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Margaret de Rye or de Ryes.

Notes:

Also called Richard de Clare; Richard of Ceredigion.

"Surprised and slain by the Welsh." [Royal Ancestry]

Richard married Alice of Chester. Alice (daughter of Ranulf le Meschin and Lucy of Bolingbroke) died after 1148. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Adeliza la Meschin. "[Richard fitz Gilbert's] wife was rescued from the Welsh by Miles of Gloucester." [Complete Peerage]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1154

Notes:

Also called James de St. James. Holder of both English and Breton lands.

James married Aveline. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Earl of Gloucester. Also called Robert de Caen; Robert fitz Roy; Rufus; Robert "The Counsel".

Fought at Brémulé, 20 Apr 1119, where Henry I defeated Louis VI. Present at the death of Henry I in Dec 1135. Commander-in-chief for the Empress Maud from 1139 on. From Complete Peerage: "In 1140 he burnt Nottingham, and in Feb. 1141 he and his son-in-law, Ranulph, Earl of Chester, relieved Lincoln and took Stephen prisoner, sending him to Bristol. He accompanied Maud in her progress to Winchester and London, and when the citizens drove her out fled with her to Oxford. He took part in the fighting at Winchester and helped Maud escape from the city, but was captured 14 Sep. (1141) at Stockbridge and taken prisoner to Rochester. Shortly afterwards he was exchanged, without concessions on either side, for Stephen, who was set at liberty on 1 Nov., and Robert then joined Maud at Bristol, and with her proceeded to Oxford. In June 1142 Maud sent him over to her husband, Geoffrey of Anjou, to urge him to invade England. It would appear that on this occasion Robert entered into a treaty of alliance with Miles of Gloucester, Earl of Hereford. Geoffrey declined to help until he had conquered Normandy, whereupon Robert joined him in his campaign. On hearing that Maud was besieged in Oxford, Robert hurried back to help her, taking with him her son, afterwards Henry II. He captured Wareham and other places, and on Maud's escape from Oxford he and Henry met her at Wallingford, and they went to Bristol, which was Robert's chief residence till 1146. In 1143 Robert defeated Stephen at Wilton, and in 1144 blockaded Malmesbury, Stephen refusing battle; but Maud's party was now so much reduced that Stephen was able to take Faringdon, which Robert had fortified. In the spring of 1147 Robert took Henry, Maud's son, back to Wareham and sent him over to Anjou; and in the same year, he founded Margam Abbey." Shortly thereafter he died of a sudden fever, in the priory of St. James in Bristol, which he had earlier founded; his death effectively ended Maud's military campaign. The Dictionary of National Biography (1909) said that "his sister's cause almost invariably prospered when she allowed him to direct her counsels, and declined as soon as she neglected his advice."

He was highly literate, a patron of scholars and chroniclers such as Geoffrey of Monmouth and William of Malmesbury, the latter of whom wrote the Historia Novella at his request. An enemy, Baldwin Fitz Gilbert, called him someone who "threatens much but does little, lionlike in his speech, but like a hare in his heart, great in eloquence but insignificant through laziness", which is pretty much the same insult lobbed by all of history's meatheads at people who are, like Robert, both well-spoken and ruthless at war. When Ralph Peters calls the slayer of Osama bin Laden, warlord of Libya and Afghanistan, commander of a secret empire of unimaginable violence, a "pussy", it's the voice of Baldwin Fitz Gilbert we hear. No matter how many cities you burn, if you also talk like an intellectual, some people will feel that you've let the meathead side down.

Robert married Mabel fitz Robert before 1122. Mabel (daughter of Robert fitz Hamon and Sibyl de Montgomery) died on 29 Sep 1157. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Mabel Fitz Hamon.

Notes:

Earl of Leicester. Also called, but only by later historians and genealogists, Robert de Beaumont.

Twin brother of Waleran, Count of Muelan, 1st Earl of Worcester. After their father's death, the two brothers were raised together in the royal household. Much detail on his career here.

Justiciar of England, 1155-1168.

Robert married Amice de Gael after Nov 1120. Amice (daughter of Ralph II de Gael) died in Nuneaton, Warwickshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Amice de Montfort.

She died as a nun in Nuneaton Priory. Complete Peerage says she died after 1168. Royal Ancestry says she died on a 31 August, year uncertain.