Ela Longespée

Notes:

Suo jure Countess of Salisbury.

Ela married James de Aldithley before 12 Jun 1244. James (son of Henry of Aldithley and Bertrade de Mainwaring) was born about 1220 in of Heleigh in Audley, Staffordshire, England; died about 11 Jun 1272 in Ireland. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

1. Nicholas de Audley was born before 1258 in of Heleigh in Audley, Staffordshire, England; died before 28 Aug 1299.
2. Hugh de Audley was born about 1267 in of Stratton, Stratton Audley, Oxfordshire, England; died between 1325 and 1326.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1208, of Amesbury, Wiltshire, England
• Alternate birth: Abt 1212
• Alternate death: 7 Feb 1250, Mansourah, Egypt
• Alternate death: 8 Feb 1250, Mansourah, Egypt

Notes:

Killed on crusade, at the Battle of Mansourah.

William married Idoine de Camville after Apr 1216. Idoine (daughter of Richard de Camville and Eustache Basset) was born before 1206; died between 1 Jan 1251 and 21 Sep 1251. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 21 Sep 1252

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: Abt 1175
• Alternate birth: Between 1175 and 1180
• Alternate birth: Abt 1176
• Alternate death: 7 Mar 1226, Salisbury, Wiltshire, England

Notes:

Earl of Salisbury. Among the advisors to King John at Runnymede.

Lieutenant of Gascony 1202; Seneschal of Avranches 1203; Constable of Dover Castle and Warden of the Cinque Ports 1204-6; Sheriff of Wiltshire 1204-7, 1213-26; Lord of the Honour and Castle of Eye 1205; Cheriff of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdonshire 1212-21; Sheriff of Shropshire and Staffordshire 1223-4; Constable of Portchester, Southampton, and Winchester Castle 1224; Keeper of the March of Wales.

Yes, there really were two Ida de Longespees, and they were sisters. SGM post:

From: Douglas Richardson Subject: Parentage of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2013 08:51:45 -0700 (PDT)

There has been discussion in the past on the newsgroup regarding the placement of Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, in the Longespée family tree. Complete Peerage, 5 (1926): 472 (sub FitzWalter) identifies Ida as "daughter of William (Longespée), Earl of Salisbury." The William Longespée intended here is presumably William Longespée I who died in 1226, not his son, William II, who died in 1250. If so, this would give Earl William Longespée I and his wife, Ela, two adult daughters named Ida, one of whom married Walter Fitz Robert, and the other who married William de Beauchamp. Curiously Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 381-382 footnote k (sub Salisbury) confuses Walter Fitz Robert's wife Ida with her sister of the same name who married William de Beauchamp; it also misidentifies Walter Fitz Robert's parentage.

The identification of Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, as a Longespée has traditionally rested on a pedigree of the Longespée family found in Lacock Priory cartulary. This pedigree lists the various children of William Longespée I, Earl of Salisbury, and his wife, Ela of Salisbury, including:

"Idam de Camyle, quam duxit in uxorem Walterus fil. Roberti, de qua genuit Catherinam et Loricam, quæ velatæ erant apud Lacok; Elam, quam duxit primo Guillelmus de Dodingeseles, de qua genuit Robertum") [Reference: Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 501].

It is not known exactly why Ida Longespée is here styled Ida de Camyle in this record. I've assumed, however, that Ida may have had a brief Camville marriage previous to her known marriage to Walter Fitz Robert. If so, a previous Camvillle marriage would explain her use of the Camville surname as a grown adult. Ida's older brother, William Longespée II, is known, for example, to have married a member of the Camville family.

There are two contemporary records which prove that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was in fact a Longespée. The first record comes from List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer, which source contains an abstract of a letter dated 1261-1263 from Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, written to Walter de Merton, the king's chancellor, in which Ida specifically styles herself Ida Longespée:

"152. Ida Longespée, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, to the same [Walter de Merton, Chancellor]: to bail two of her men appealed of homicide. [1261-1263]." [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO Lists and Indexes 15) (1902): 107-108].

Elsewhere I find that Calendar of Liberate Rolls 5 (1961): 93 likewise refers to Ida, widow of Walter Fitz Robert, as "Ida Lungespee:"

Date: 11 May 1162 -- "Liberate to Geoffrey de Lezinan, the king's brother, 40l. in recompense of a like sum received there of the issues of the manor of Henham [Essex] by the hands of Ida Lungespee." END OF QUOTE.

To date to my knowledge no one has discovered Ida Longespée's maritagium, although she certainly had one in marriage. Recently I encountered a record which evidently concerns her maritagium. The record in question is a Wiltshire pleading which dates from 1249:

"Walter son of Robert and Ida his wife, by Ida's attorney by writ of the present king, who brought an assize of novel disseisin against William Lungepeie for holdings in Scepperingge and Heniton, Farlegh' and Bidinham, have come and withdrawn by licence. It is agreed between them that Walter and Ida had put themselves utterly in William's grace for those holdings." [Reference: Clanchy, Civil Pleas of the Wiltshire Eyre 1249 (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 26) (1971): 152].

The lands involved in this lawsuit can be identified as Sheepbridge (in Swallowfield), Hinton (in Hurst), Farley [Hill] (in Swallowfield), and Diddenham (in Shinfield), all in modern Berkshire but formerly in Wiltshire. These lands were apparently held by William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela.

VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 267-274 states that Sheepbridge "belonged with Hinton in 1236 to Ela, Countess of Salisbury." Countess Ela named here was the widow of William Longespée I. VCH's statement regarding Countess Ela's holding of these lands is based on a charter found in Calendar of Charter Rolls 1226 - 57, page 221, whereby the king confirmed a grant of Countess Ela of various lands to Lacock Abbey, in exchange for "10 l. yearly receivable ...... .of the manors of Shiperige and Henton, and the advowson of the church of Winterburn Shyreveton."

The above record may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=1dELAQA AIAAJ&pg=PP1&dq=Calendar+Charter+Rolls+1226&hl=en&ei=M-U4TrbTFYvXiALj163DDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=r esult&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Calendar%20Charter%20Rolls%201226&f=false

Countess Ela's charter is undated but surely must date from around 1236. My files notes show the following information:

"In Feb. 1236 her son and heir, William Longespée, guaranteed her gifts to Lacock Abbey, while she agreed to surrender all her lands, rents and rights to him on 1 Nov. following. On 25 Oct. 1236 Ela, Countess of Salisbury, reached agreement with William Longespée, her first born son, that she may grant a moiety of the manor of Heddington, Wiltshire to Lacock Priory, which property fell to her on the death of Maud de Mandeville, Countess of Essex and Hereford. In the winter 1236 - 7 she resigned her custody of the county of Wiltshire. She subsequently entered her religious foundation at Lacock, where she took the veil before spring 1238." END OF QUOTE FROM MY FILE NOTES.

Following Countess Ela's surrender of her lands to her son, William Longespée II, he in turn granted the four properties in question, namely Sheepbridge, Hinton, Farley, and Diddenham, to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. The date of this grant is sometime before 1239-40.

In that year Sir Henry de la Mare was involved in a legal action concerning these four properties. A reference to this lawsuit may be found in Maitland, Bracton's Note Book 3 (1887): 286 - 287. This may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DtcQAAA AYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:LtFTiI1NIsEC&hl=en&ei=nmw5TsSXK42IsAKv3OEg&sa=X&oi=book_result &ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

So the question arises: When did Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida Longespée, acquire their interest in the four properties? The answer to that question is not exact but surely it must have dated from the time that Countess Ela of Salisbury was holding these properties and before 1 Nov. 1236 when Countess Ela surrendered all her lands, rents, and rights to her son, William Longespée II. Walter and Ida can't have acquired their interest from William Longespée II, as once his mother released her lands to him, he almost immediately conveyed these four properties to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. One of these properties, Hinton, subsequently descended to Sir Henry de la Mare's daughter and heiress, Maud, wife of Peter de Montfort, and thence to her descendants [see VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 247 - 260].

So besides knowing that Walter Fitz Robert and Ida Longespée obtained their interest in the properties before 1236, what else can we know? More specifically, why would Ida claim these lands, if her brother had granted them to his seneschal?

The answer to this question is not clear but a reasonable guess would be that these four properties were put up as Ida's maritagium when she was contracted to marry a Camville and that when the contracted Camville marriage failed to materialize or produced no issue, by the terms of the marriage contract, the lands returned to Ida's family. At that point, Ida's claim to the lands was essentially voided. This in turn would explain why Ida's brother, William Longespée II, felt free to grant these lands elsewhere to Sir Henry de la Mare.

In summary, adequate evidence has been located which indicates that Ida, wife of Walter Fitz Robert, was a Longespée. In 1249 Walter Fitz Robert and his wife, Ida, sued William Longespée II regarding four properties then in Wiltshire, but now in Berkshire. The four properties in question were apparently part of the inheritance of Ida's mother, Countess Ela, who appears to have controlled the lands until 1236, when she released her lands to her son, William Longespée II. Ida's rights must predate 1236, as William Longespée II almost immediately conveyed these properties before 1239-40 to his seneschal, Sir Henry de la Mare. Thus William Longespée II can not have offered them as Ida's maritagium. This in turn implies that Ida Longespée was the daughter of William Longespée I and his wife, Countess Ela, and not William Longespée II.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Ida Longespée, wife of Walter Fitz Robert:

Robert Abell, Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Walter Aston, Christopher Batt, Henry, Thomas & William Batte, Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George & Robert Brent, Thomas Bressey, Edward Bromfield, Nathaniel Browne, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Elizabeth, John, and Thomas Butler, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke, Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Muriel Gurdon, Katherine Hamby, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Symon Lynde, Agnes Mackworth, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stratton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville, Olive Welby, John West, Thomas Yale.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

William married Ela of Salisbury before Sep 1197. Ela (daughter of William fitz Patrick and Eleanor de Vitré) was born about 1191 in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England; died on 24 Aug 1261 in Lacock, Wiltshire, England; was buried in 1261 in Lacock Abbey, Lacock, Wiltshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Also called Ela fitz William. Founded the abbey at Laycock, 1238; abbess, 1240-57. Buried "in the convent choir beneath the altar." [Royal Ancestry]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1230

Richard married Eustache Basset in 1200. Eustache (daughter of Gilbert Basset and Egeline de Courtenay) died before 1215. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1216

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate birth: 4 Mar 1133, Le Mans, Sarthe, Pays-de-la-Loire, France

Notes:

Also called Henry Fitz Empress; Henry Fitz Geoffrey.

Henry married Ida de Tony. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Notes:

Stewart Baldwin, at The Henry Project, states that "The parentage of Ida remains unknown":

While it had been known for some time that the mother of William was a "countess" Ida, her identity was only recently proven. As one of two known contemporary English countesses named Ida, the wife of Roger Bigod had already been a prime candidate [see Paul C. Reed, "Countess Ida, mother of William Longespée, illegitimate son of Henry II", TAG 77 (2002), which was going to press just as the crucial discovery was made]. Convincing proof of her identity as the wife of Roger Bigod was only recently discovered by Raymond W. Phair, who announced his discovery in the soc.genealogy.medieval newsgroup on 3 July 2002, and then published it in The American Genealogist [Raymond W. Phair, "William Longespée, Ralph Bigod, and Countess Ida", TAG 77 (2002), 279-81], citing a list of prisoners after the Battle of Bouvines in 1214, in which Ralph Bigod was called a brother of the earl of Salisbury. The parentage of Ida remains unknown, but see Reed (2002) for the possibility that she might have been a daughter of Roger de Toeni and Ida of Hainault.

Douglas Richardson's Royal Ancestry (2013) gives Ida de Tony as a daughter of Ralph de Tony and Margaret of Leicester. Richardson set forth his arguments for this in a 2008 post to soc.genealogy.medieval, reproduced below:

From: Douglas Richardson
Subject: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 06:32:55 -0800 (PST)

[...] For conclusive evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a member of the Tony family, see Morris, The Bigod Earls of Norfolk in the 13th Century (2005): 2, who cites a royal inquest dated 1275, in which the jurors affirmed that Earl Roger le Bigod had received the manors of Acle, Halvergate, and South Walsham, Norfolk from King Henry II, in marriage with his wife, Ida de Tony (citing Rotuli Hundredorum 1 (1812): 504, 537). Morris shows that Earl Roger le Bigod received these manors by writ of the king, he having held them for three quarters of a year at Michaelmas 1182 (citing PR 28 Henry II, 1181-1182 (Pipe Roll Soc.) (1910):64). This appears to pinpoint to marriage of Ida de Tony and Earl Roger le Bigod as having occurred about Christmas 1181.

For evidence that Ida de Tony was the mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury (illegitimate son of King Henry II of England), see London, Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory (Wiltshire Rec. Soc. 35) (1979): 143, 188, which includes two charters in which Earl William Longespee specifically names his mother as Countess Ida. Furthermore, among the prisoners captured at the Battle of Bouvines in 1214 was a certain Ralph [le] Bigod, who a contemporary French record names as "brother" [i.e., half-brother] to William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury [see Brial, Monumens de Règnes des Philippe Auguste et de Louis VIII 1 (Recueil des Historiens des Gaules et de la France 17) (1878): 101 (Guillelmus Armoricus: "Isti sunt Prisiones (capti in bello Bovinensi)...Radulphus Bigot, frater Comitis Saresburiensis"); see also Malo, Un grand feudataire, Renaud de Dammartin et la coalition de Bouvines (1898):199, 209].

As for Countess Ida's parentage, it seems virtually certain that she was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162), of Flamstead, Hertfordshire, by his wife, Margaret (b. c.1125, living 1185), daughter of Robert de Beaumont, 2nd Earl of Leicester [see C.P.7 (1929): 530, footnote e (incorrectly dates Ralph and Margaret's marriage as "after 1155" based on the misdating of a charter --correction provided by Ray Phair); C.P. 12(1) (1953): 764 - 765 (sub Tony); Power, The Norman Frontier in the Twelfth and Early Thirteenth Centuries (2004): 525 (Tosny pedigree)].

For evidence which supports Ida's placement as a child of Ralph V de Tony, several facts may be noted. First, Countess Ida and her husband, Roger le Bigod, are known to have named children, Ralph and Margaret, presumably in honor of Ida's parents, Ralph and Margaret de Tony [see Thompson, Liber Vitae Ecclesiae Dunelmenis (Surtees Soc. 136) (1923): fo.63b, for a contemporary list of the Bigod children]. Countess Ida was herself evidently named in honor of Ralph V de Tony's mother, Ida of Hainault. Next, William Longespee and his descendants had a long standing association with the family of Roger de Akeny, of Garsington, Oxfordshire, which Roger was a younger brother of Ralph V de Tony (died 1162) [see C.P. 8 (1932): chart foll. 464; 14 (1998): 614; Loyd, Origins of Some Anglo-Norman Fams. (1951): 2; VCH Oxford 5 (1957): 138; Harper-Bill, Dodnash Priory Charters (Suffolk Rec. Soc. 16) (1998): 34 - 37, 39 - 40, 72 - 73; Fam. Hist. 18 (1995 - 97): 47 - 64; 19 (1998): 125 - 129]. Lastly, Roger le Bigod and his step-son William Longespée both had associations with William the Lion, King of Scots, which connection can be readily explained by virtue of King William's wife, Ermengarde, being sister to Constance de Beaumont, wife of Countess Ida's presumed brother, Roger VI de Tony [see C.P. 12(1) (1953): 760 - 769 (sub Tony)].

William the Lion was likewise near related to both of Countess Ida's presumed parents, her father by a shared descent from Countess Judith, niece of William the Conqueror, and her mother by a shared descent from Isabel de Vermandois, Countess of Surrey. Roger le Bigod and William Longespee were both present with other English relations of William the Lion at an important gathering at Lincoln in 1200, when William the Lion paid homage to King John of England [see Stubbs, Chronica Magistri Rogeri de Houedene 4 (Rolls Ser. 51) (1871): 141 - 142].

Thus, naming patterns, familial and political associations give strong evidence that Ida, wife of Earl Roger le Bigod, was a daughter of Ralph V de Tony.

A later post from Richardson in the same thread:

From: Douglas Richardson
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 11:28:47 -0800 (PST)

Morris says that Ida de Tony was a ward of the king when the king married her to Roger le Bigod. That presumably means she was not yet 21 at her marriage, which occurred at Christmas 1181. If so, she would have to have been born no earlier than 1160.

Also, to be a ward of the king, your father would have been a tenant in chief of the king who left a minor heir in custody. The only requisite Tony male in this time period that would appear to fit that description would be Sir Ralph de Tony (husband of Margaret de Beaumont), who died in 1162, leaving a minor son, Roger. An estimate for a birth of Sir Ralph de Tony is hard to determine, but he was conceivable born as early as 1130, and probably no later than 1135. We know his parents were married in the reign of King Henry I who died in 1135.

As for the chronology of other parts of the Tony family. Sir Ralph de Tony's sister, Godeheut de Tony, wife of William de Mohun, had a grandson and heir, Reynold de Mohun, born about 1185. So Godeheut de Tony was born say 1135, give or take. Sir Ralph de Tony's younger brother, Sir Roger de Tony, had his son and heir, Baldwin, born about 1170. So Sir Roger was born say 1140, give or take.

In any case, the fact that Ida de Tony was a ward at the time of her marriage would seem to clearly indicate her parentage.

An email from Todd A. Farmerie to Marianne Dillow, reproduced in the same thread as Richardson's two posts above (the archives of the thread are somewhat jumbled, making it hard to tell the exact order of posts). It summarizes Farmerie's reservations about Richardson's identification of Ida de Tony's parents. In the scheme that Farmerie considers equally probable, Ida's parents would be Ralph de Tony's father Roger de Tony and Roger's wife Ida de Hainault:

I think you already had others point you to the group archives. Let me just say that this is not about confidence in an individual's work. It is a legitimate difference of opinion, two people, each equally qualified, using the same data, and reaching different conclusions.

I didn't want to get into another round of argument in the group, as it has been argued several times before. Briefly, though, everything that has been said about her being child of Ralph would also apply to her being sister of Ralph. All of the names, all of the associations, etc.

Whether she was daughter or sister comes down to how old you think she is, and we have no evidence. Thus, virtual certainty is a bit of an exaggeration. That she was of this immediate family is pretty safe, but which generation, there is room for doubt.

Let me also say this, and I just offer it at face value. This is not the first 'near certainty' that has been proclaimed with regard to her parentage. For years it was argued that it was almost certain she was a completely different person. Then a new piece of evidence comes out and we have seamlessly switched to a different near certainty. Basically, when someone says that something is a virtual certainty, they are doing it either because they think it is absolutely certain, and are simply recognizing that all history has a minute chance of revision, or alternatively, because they know it isn't certain, but they have convinced themselves that it is the right answer and are trying to make it sound better than it really is. This is not a 99.99% certainty, it is a 75% likelihood, coupled with a strong gut feeling and some gilding of the lily. That, at least, is my view.

I guess my real point is, don't take anything at face value. Mr. Richardson has made some insightful hypotheses. As far as I know, he was the first to guess that Ida, wife of Roger de Toeny was identical to Ida, mother of William Longespee. He had no evidence for it - it was just a strong gut instinct that led him to the right answer when proof was found a decade later. He has also reached some conclusions that are nothing but wishful thinking (such as his first 'certain' ancestry of Ida, which we now know is completely false). Both were expressed with equal certainty. Mr. Richardson is not unique in this. The same is true of others here, myself included. Don't just accept what anyone says. Look at all of the different opinions and ignore who is saying what, just take what seems the best solution from it, no matter who offers it.

Even if only one person has suggested a connection, look at the evidence and try out some other possibilities and see if they will fit as well. No one is right all the time - everyone has their biases, and to be good at this, it is important to move beyond the individual opinions and reach your own conclusions from the original data. (Sorry to preach.)

Finally, a post from the same thread setting forth a chronological argument for Richardson's position, and giving a reasonable guess as to her year of birth:

From: mississippienne@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Ida de Tony, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, and mother of William Longespée, Earl of Salisbury
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 10:54:13 -0800 (PST)

[...] Girls as young as 12 were considered marriageable during this time period, and since we have no firm dates for either Ida's birth or that of her son William, she might've been as young as 15 or as old as her twenties by the time she gave birth to him. Unless someone happens upon a charter in which William de Longspee helpfully provides his exact date of birth and that of his mother, we will probably never know for sure. All we know is that she went onto have at least eight children with Roger Bigod; assuming no twins, Ida was bearing children at least until about 1190. As M. Sjostrom points out, it's stretching the chronology to the breaking point to get Ida de Tony to be the daughter of Ida of Hainault.

I think a reasonable time for Ida de Tony would be a birth c. 1160, her son William born 1175-1180, marriage to Roger Bigod in 1181, at which point she was bearing his children until the early 1190s or thereabouts, when she would've been in her thirties.

Notes:

Earl of Wiltshire, always styled Earl of Salisbury. Also called William of Salisbury.

According to CP, he may have died in Normandy.

William married Eleanor de Vitré about 1191. Eleanor (daughter of Robert III de Vitré and Emma de Dinan) died before 12 Aug 1233; was buried in Abbey of Mondaye, Bayeux, Calvados, Normandy, France. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 18 Aug 1233

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: 1214
• Alternate death: Bef Jan 1215

Notes:

Sheriff of Lincolnshire 1189, 1199-1205.

The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says (without citing specific evidence) that he was the son of Richard de Camville's first wife, Alice/Adeliza.

John P. Ravilious argues otherwise: "[G]iven the chronology of the career of Gerard de Camville and of his son Richard (who was probably born ca. 1170/1180 based on his marriage to Eustache Bisset), I don't see any particular reason to attribute Gerard's birth to a period before 1145."

But Douglas Richardson wrote on SGM, 9 Jan 2016, that "Contemporary records indicate that Richard de Camville had four sons, Gerard, Walter, William, and Richard, and two daughters, Maud and Isabel. Of these children, it would appear that the son Richard and the daughter Isabel (wife of Robert de Harcourt) were the only children by Richard de Camville's 2nd wife, Milicent de Rethel. This is deduced by the fact that Milicent de Rethel's lands at Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire (which she had by grant of her kinswoman, Queen Alice) were held after Milicent's death by the younger Richard de Camville. When the younger Richard de Camville died in 1191, he was succeeded briefly by his son and heir, John. It appears that John de Camville soon died without issue, and the lands at Stanton Harcourt reverted to his father Richard's sister, Isabel de Harcourt or her representative. Had Milicent de Rethel been the mother of the elder Richard de Camville's other sons, Stanton Harcourt would have fallen to them, ahead of Isabel Harcourt. The succession at Stanton Harcourt suggests that the younger Richard de Camville and Isabel de Harcourt were full sublings, and the only children of Milicent de Rethel by the elder Richard de Camville."

And Todd Farmerie, on 10 Jan 2016, backed up Richardson's argument: "It is not how Richard came to possess Stanton that suggests he was the only (surviving, with issue) son of Richard by Milicent, it is what happened at young Richard's demise. If there was another son of Richard by Milicent, that hypothetical son would have been heir to Richard. The fact that Stanton went to Isabel is strong evidence that none of the other Camville lines derive from the same parents. (Just as a reminder, there is a quirk to English inheritance law at this period, whereby only full-blood relationships qualify. Half-brothers, whether on the Camville or Marmion sides, would not be heirs of Richard unless specified as a reversion in the original grant.) The assumptions in this conclusion are 1) that Isabel inherited Stanton, rather than having been granted it by John, heir to her brother Richard, and 2) that when Milicent granted it to Richard, she did not set up a reversion that preferred Isabel to another (hypothetical) full sibling. As far as I know, neither of these is formally excluded but parsimony would favor the most straightforward reconstruction, that Isabel inherited from John, and thus she did not have any other full siblings."

Gerard married Nichole de la Haye before 1185. Nichole (daughter of Richard de la Haye and Maud de Vernon) was born in of Brattleby, Welton, Lincolnshire, England; died on 20 Nov 1230 in Swaton, North Kesteven, Lincolnshire, England. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1231

Notes:

"Acting as hereditary constable ('castellan') of Lincoln, she defended the city against the baronial opponents of King John under Earl William of Lincoln, 1216." [John P. Ravilious, citation details below, citing King John by W. L. Warren (Methuen, 1981).]

From the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (citation details below):

The office of constable passed through her to each of her husbands, and in August 1189 she and Canville crossed to Barfleur, Normandy, to obtain a charter confirming their inheritance in both England and Normandy from King Richard. This included Lincoln Castle as it had been held by Nicola's father and grandfather. It is likely that the shrievalty of the county of Lincoln was also included in the grant, which cost Canville and Nicola 700 marks.

In 1191 Nicola was besieged with her husband at Lincoln Castle when he quarrelled with William de Longchamp (d. 1197), the chancellor and justiciar of England in Richard's absence. In 1194 she fined for the sum of 300 marks with King Richard to marry her daughter, Matilda, according to her will, excepting one of the king's enemies. She continued to account for this debt until 1212, having renegotiated the amount with King John in 1200, and in 1201 she still owed £20, 40 marks, and one palfrey. Nicola enjoyed a cordial relationship with the fickle John. According to a later tradition recorded nearly sixty years after the events, Nicola had met John when he went to Lincoln in 1216. Her husband had recently died, and she went to meet the king leaving the castle by the eastern postern gate with its keys in her hand. She offered them to John saying that she was of great age and unable to continue with the office any longer. John sought her out and said, 'My beloved Nicola, I will that you keep the castle as hitherto, until I shall order otherwise' (Rotuli hundredorum, 1.315). The king granted the shrievalty of Lincoln to Nicola and Philip Marc a few hours before his death on 18 October 1216. The ageing widow was besieged at Lincoln by the rebels under the leadership of Louis of France, and she held the castle for the royalists until she was relieved in 1217. One source alleges that she had been entrusted with the castle 'in exchange for money' and that the castle was relieved since it would have been considered 'dishonourable not to help so brave a lady' (Historical Collections of Walter of Coventry, 2.237–8). The Histoire de Guillaume le Mare?chal narrates that, before the attack by the royalist forces, Peter des Roches, bishop of Winchester, penetrated the castle by a secret route and met Nicola to reassure her that the siege would shortly be raised. She was apparently delighted to hear the news, and it seems that her intransigent defence of the castle facilitated a successful attack by the royalists which saw the rout of the rebel forces. The battle at Lincoln on 20 May 1217 was one of two decisive battles that ended the claim of Louis to the throne of England. The ending of the siege was followed by looting and sacrilege. Despite her alleged earlier protestations of age and incompetence, Nicola determinedly held on to the office in the face of repeated attempts by William (II) Longespée, the husband of her granddaughter Idonea and son of the earl of Salisbury, to eject her from it. In 1219 she is recorded as holding dower in Swaton, Lincolnshire, worth £20 annually. Nicola resigned the office of castellan in 1226 and died in Swaton on 20 November 1230.

From Women in Thirteenth-Century Lincolnshire (citation details below):

Significantly, in spite of her legal subordination to her husband, Nicholaa was actively involved in the management of her estates during this marriage. The strongest image of her working in partnership with Gerard can be found in the chronicle of Richard of Devizes and concerns the events of 1191. During the king's absence on crusade, Gerard de Camville became entangled in the violent dispute between the royal chancellor and John, count of Mortain. According to Richard of Devizes, while Gerard was with John, helping him to secure the castles of Nottingham and Tickhill, 'his wife, Nicholaa, not thinking about anything womanly, defended the castle manfully' ('uxor eius Nicolaa nichil femineum cogitans, castellum viriliter custodiebat') against the chancellor's forces. Richard's sympathetic description of Nicholaa's actions contrasts strongly with his less complimentary treatment of her husband: he had characterised Gerard de Camville earlier in his narrative as a 'factious man, prodigal of his allegiance' ('homo factiosus et fidei prodigus'). Richard's choice of language to describe Nicholaa's qualities as a military leader clearly implies that, although the role which she adopted was unusual for a woman, her performance in the author's eyes was all the more praiseworthy because of her sex. Yet it might also have been intended to highlight the less satisfactory conduct of Nicholaa's husband. It was certainly a wise move by Gerard to place Nicholaa, the living focus for loyalties to the la Haye family, in charge of Lincoln castle at a time when their standing in the locality was of paramount importance. Gerard's decision to leave Nicholaa, rather than a male deputy, in command of the garrison on this occasion indicates that she played an important role in the day-to-day running of her inheritance under more stable conditions. Lincoln was, after all, a particularly large and strategically significant castle, situated on a high ridge that looked out to the west over the Trent valley. The pipe roll for 1191 reveals that mercenary soldiers were employed for forty days on the siege of Lincoln castle. It was no mean feat on Nicholaa's part to withstand a siege for over a month. [...]

It was both a measure of Nicholaa's high esteem in [King] John's eyes and a sign of the desperate circumstances in which he found himself that on 18 October 1216, presumably just hours before his death, Nicholaa was appointed joint sheriff of Lincolnshire with Philip Mark. This appointment of a woman as a sheriff was unprecedented and needs explanation. Although Round found a near-contemporary case in Norfolk where a woman, Margaret de Caisneto, had apparently carried her late father's claim to the shrievalty to her second husband, there is no evidence that she ever held or exercised the duties associated with this office in her own right. Nicholaa's appointment might, however, have helped to set a precedent. Ela, the widowed countess of Salisbury, served as sheriff of Wiltshire in 1227-8 and 1231-7, and even appeared at the exchequer in person at Michaelmas 1236 to render account. The reasoning behind King John's apparent disregard for convention in Nicholaa's case emerges from the political conditions in Lincolnshire in 1216. William Morris, commenting on the immediate aftermath of Magna Carta, observed, 'To hold the counties at such a time required strong men'. Many of the men who might otherwise have been appointed sheriff under more peaceful conditions either were or recently had been in rebellion against the king. Thomas of Moulton, Gerard de Camville's successor to the shrievalty in 1205, was one example, and Alexander of Pointon, who accounted as sheriff to the exchequer at Michaelmas 1213, was another. Simon III of Kyme, a similarly experienced former royal administrator, also opposed John. Although Nicholaa's son and heir, Richard, was still alive in 1216 and had attained his majority, his untimely death in early March 1217 suggests that he was already suffering from poor health which prevented his emergence as a viable candidate. In any case, Richard had already forged a career in Leicestershire, Warwickshire and Oxfordshire, administering his inheritance from his father and the estates of his wife, Eustachia Basset. Nicholaa was a woman but at least she possessed an association with the shrievalty of Lincolnshire through her second husband, Gerard, and had enjoyed an opportunity to observe the workings of the office at first hand. The combination of Nicholaa's experience in managing and defending Lincoln castle, and the autonomy that she enjoyed as a widow, also made her a viable appointee. Hence her description by the 'Barnwell' chronicler as a 'matron' ('matrona'), a term that reflected both Nicholaa's standing and maturity.

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Bef 1205

Notes:

Sheriff of Oxfordshire, 1200-1.

Gilbert married Egeline de Courtenay. Egeline (daughter of Reynold de Courtenay and (Unknown first wife of Reynold de Courtenay)) died in 1214. [Group Sheet] [Family Chart]

Other Events and Attributes:

• Alternate death: Aft 1219

Notes:

VCH Oxfordshire (VI: 21, 325) and VCH Buckinghamshire (IV: 114) make her the daughter of Reynold de Courtenay who d. 1194, but RA makes them siblings.