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April 18, 2012

XKCD on comment order
Posted by Teresa at 08:32 AM * 70 comments

An astute observation from XKCD about astroturf and comment order. Naturally, I want to see his cartoon about the effects of “most recent first” comment order.

Randall Munroe clearly understand a point that many people are still assimilating: passably good writers are cheap compared to many other opinion-making mechanisms. Over the long run they cost more than normal consumer advertising, but during election campaigns — high stakes, short duration, lots of slushy money — they can be quite cost-effective.

I know of two answers to the comment order problem. One is to give readers a button that will flip comment order from “first posted” to “most recently posted” and back again. The other is to do your best to suppress sockpuppets, and give readers a “view all by” button. Few things will so thoroughly undercut one’s impression of a commenter’s candor, sincerity, and independence as finding out that they’ve posted a long string of repetitive and superficial comments that are all in support of the same candidate or issue.

Comments on XKCD on comment order:
#2 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 10:00 AM:

- Lambchop

#3 ::: xeger ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 10:28 AM:

passably good writers are cheap compared to many other opinion-making mechanisms. Over the long run they cost more than normal consumer advertising, but during election campaigns — high stakes, short duration, lots of slushy money — they can be quite cost-effective.

This sounds like another variation on "Good, Cheap, Fast - pick two".

(and now, looking at what's in my fridge, leaves me considering variations on that, along the lines of "Edible, Nutritious, Available -- pick one")

#4 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 11:20 AM:

Serge, #1: Naw, he's long gone (and good riddance) -- found the Republican Party requirements too onerous, as I recall, and went back to raking in money from his shares in HCA.

#5 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 11:51 AM:

Lee @ 4... Has he gone back to diagnozing a person's health by way of a TV set?

#6 ::: Skwid ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 12:16 PM:

I am spending far too much time on Google +, these days. Every time I come over to Making Light I just miss there being a +1 button next to every comment *so much!*

Speaking of, what are your thoughts on "Karma" based sorting algorithms like Reddit uses, Teresa?

#7 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 01:10 PM:

Serge #5: That would be serious medical malpractice.

#8 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 01:21 PM:

Fragano #6: Nevertheless, he did it.

Not his patient, and unethical as all heck.

#9 ::: Bruce Arthurs ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 01:28 PM:

Despite the clear problems with Frist's particular case, let us not use too wide a brush and inadvertently condemn Telemedicine.

#10 ::: Teresa Nielsen Hayden ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 01:41 PM:

Wow. Talk about anonymous writers being inexpensive. You should check out the talk page for Frist's Wikipedia entry. Either there are a couple of Wikipedians with an unreasonable devotion to whitewashing and polishing Frist's reputation, or it's part of their day job.

#11 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 02:25 PM:

Bruce Arthurs @ 8... Oh, we weren't criticizing telemedecine. It was about the specific case of someone putting politics ahead of good practice. My apologies if it came across as anything else. I think it's neat that a doctor can save lives who isn't able to be where the patient is.

#12 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 02:28 PM:

Jim Macdonald #7: So he did. I hope I never have to be near him when I need treatment.

#13 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 03:04 PM:

Telemedicine != informal videotapes made by family members without control or context.

#14 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 03:11 PM:

Heavily-edited videotapes at that, designed to show Schiavo looking as normal as possible. Yawning, for example, which looks normal in a person with no conscious brain because the conscious brain isn't involved in yawning.

#15 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 03:19 PM:

Fragano Ledgister @12: The catch, of course, is that you wouldn't have to be.

#16 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 03:42 PM:

Jacque.... coughgagsplutter!

#17 ::: Phil Palmer ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 05:59 PM:

One solution to the comment order problem is to show replies to a comment underneath it. That way the community gets to show the fuggheadedness of the camping infraponts. I've always thought that would be the number one way to improve things at the Guardian, for example, and I am suspicious of the Guardian's motives for not doing it. (The internet looks bad and they look good, despite their articles being actually quite shallow.) But you don't do that here, and here works quite well and I'm not sure why.

#18 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 07:17 PM:

Personally I prefer comments to be single-threaded, like they are here, and on FaceBook and on Google+. I wish I could do that on LiveJournal and on DreamWidth.

#19 ::: Jenett ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 07:26 PM:

Sergei -

You can now get flat comments on Dreamwidth. Between the end of the post and the comments in most styles and site schemes, you should see something that says "Flat | Top-Level Comments Only"

Click the link on the flat one to get them in order by posting time. (You can toggle back to "Threaded" the same way.) People who just want to see the top level comments on a post can do that with the other link.

#20 ::: Jenett ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 07:27 PM:

Serge @18. Argh, for the typo on your name, sorry.

#21 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 07:57 PM:

I pointed my boy at part of an open thread over here, and he absolutely hated the unthreaded comments. He felt that he couldn't follow the bits of conversation he was interested in, and very strongly expressed how much he likes reddit's system.

I was amused, because (1) I know it's a conscious choice here, (2) I'm so used to it I don't notice it, and (3) if I thought about it, I wouldn't want it any other way. I tried to explain it's like being at a party with several conversations all occurring in the same room, but I think he remains unconvinced.

#22 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 08:20 PM:

Xopher @14: I've seen a flatlined person yawn. It's uncannily normal appearing. And the person never did get any function back at all. (It was a close friend who collapsed in my arms at a morris practice: we got ambulance there within 3 minutes and he took a year to finish dying....)

#23 ::: Harlequin ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 09:03 PM:

Serge@18 - you can also get flat comments on LJ by appending ?view=flat to the end of the URL (or &view=flat if there's already a ? option included). However, it isn't as usable as it is here, because people don't mark which part of the conversation they're referring to.

#24 ::: Singing Wren ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 09:10 PM:

The chronological versus threaded discussion has clarified something for me. To wit: I feel comfortable in part here because a chronological comment format feels natural for me.

And I can even explain why. The freenets where I got my internet start used chronological format for all their discussion area posts. Sure, you could start a new topic, or reply to any old topic, but whatever you posted ended up at the bottom of the list. (Earlier comments were at the top.) And while you could read only the posts on a given topic, it was generally easier to start at the first unread post, and keep reading until you got to the end.

#25 ::: Neil in Chicago ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 10:01 PM:

Like so many other management problems, I doubt that ways of handling comments scale across very many orders of magnitude.
You couldn't run slashdot like Making light!

#26 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 10:14 PM:

That's awful, Tom. I'm so sorry that happened to him, and to you.

#27 ::: lorax ::: (view all by) ::: April 18, 2012, 10:24 PM:

Nancy C. Mittens @21, I actually think that the "party" analogy is a good one but may still explain his unhappiness with the unthreaded system; some people aren't as good at focusing on a single conversation in a situation like that and find it very wearying to make a constant effort to focus on turning out the ones they aren't interested in. (Think, perhaps, about being in the middle of a group of 12 or so people at a long table in a noisy pub; there are two conversations, you're right in the middle between them, and you keep getting distracted from one by the other so you can't follow or participate in either one properly. I find this situation tremendously frustrating, and I can imagine people accustomed to threaded interfaces having the same problems with unthreaded ones.) For me, it doesn't help if I'm interested in both conversations in the real-world scenario; I still can't follow and participate in both at once. Fortunately that doesn't apply here where one discussion is still there when I'm done with the other.

#28 ::: Doug Burbidge ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 02:35 AM:

An intermediate between nested and flat is to provide flat, but with added tools. People have already mentioned buttons that toggle between modes, but Charlie Stross' blog does something a little different: it has a "Person X replied to this comment from Person Y" link at the top of each comment which is intended as a reply. When you click it, it of course moves you to that point in the comment thread, and you then use your browser's Back button to get back to where you came from.

(Commenters right here of course do a similar manual thing by typing things like "@21" at the start of their post.)

Another way to visualise that might be to add arrows in the space to the left or right of the comment thread, showing the intended relationships between comments. This would allow many-to-many relationships: a single comment can be a reply to more than one parent comment. But it would also require way more HTML5/Javascript/something than I am capable of.

#29 ::: Linkmeister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 02:50 AM:

Doug Burbidge @ #28, Balloon Juice has a similar "reply" function which, when clicked, autolinks to the comment to which one's replying. Whether it's a WordPress add-on or plug-in I'm not sure. My blog gets so few comments I haven't the need for a tool of that nature.

#30 ::: elise ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 02:53 AM:

Doug Burbidge @28: Ravelry does something similar. It also tells you when you've missed reading comments by jumping about between replies, and offers you the option of going back to the last thing you read. I rather like that.

#31 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 03:06 AM:

Harlequin @ 23... Thanks. I'll try that.

#32 ::: Jules ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 03:34 AM:

TNH@10, that article is a perfect example of how dangerous a single editor with knowledge of wikipedia's rules can be. For a while, a single editor managed to keep the FEC's finding that Frist violated electoral laws out of the page on the basis that it isn't unusual for politicians to violate electoral laws(!) and therefore it is "undue weight" to mention it.

Interestingly, the editor in question doesn't seem to have any obvious political bias in his edits. Yes, he's also been cleaning up the pages of other Republican politicians, but also prominent Democrat supporters (although interestingly not politicians, but journalists and public commentators, e.g. Paul Krugman and Noam Chomsky) too.

#33 ::: LMM ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 07:51 AM:

@21: I think it really depends what you're going for. If you're trying to follow a single line of thought (or reading everything in one go), threaded comments might be better, but if you're trying to follow an evolving conversation with time, unthreaded is definitely superior.

Personally, I feel more comfortable with unthreaded comments -- but that's after *years* of retraining myself from message boards and Usenet groups.

#34 ::: Niall McAuley ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 08:46 AM:

Doug @28, you can even put in a clickable link to a particular comment manually, but it's a little extra work.

I sometimes do it if the comment I want to reply to is 200 comments back in the thread.

#35 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 08:52 AM:

Jacque #15: Just a few edited clips of my unconscious behaviour. I, apparently, say all sorts of weird stuff with a 104º fever.

#36 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 09:18 AM:

Fragano... Hopefully the fever is now becoming less.

#37 ::: fidelio ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 11:03 AM:

Fragano @35--and in how many languages and dialects?

#38 ::: Jacque ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 11:42 AM:

Fragano Ledgister @35: Never managed 105°, 104° is as high as I've gone, far as I know. One of those occassioned the closest thing to an hallucination that I've ever experienced: was dreaming, and woke up without the usual transition state, so it took me a while to figure out that I was in a bedroom and not a boat. Very weird experience.

WRT threaded-vs-nonthreaded: I "grew up" in the old Usenet using rn; when our sysadmins replaced it with trn, it drove me nuts. Felt like being packed into a little box and only being able to see out one little hole. I like a more bird's-eye view of the conversation, even the parts that don't interest me directly. I learn stuff that I would never encounter otherwise.

This is the reason online want ads make me nuts, too. Eliminates the "spotting stuff out of the corner of my eye" that I depend on heavily. I really miss the old paper classifieds.

#39 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 12:50 PM:

Given the choice, my preference would be for the old Usenet-style: not only threaded comments, but new comments always appear at the top of your comment feed, so that an active conversation never disappears. (Downside: a toxic conversation that somebody just won't let go of also never disappears, but that's what the Next button is for.)

Comment threading as implemented by LJ and DW is sort of the next best thing, but once the top-post has scrolled off your screen, the only way you find out about new comments is if you have notifications turned on (for your own posts) or if you specifically go find the post and look (for posts made by other people).

The style used here, where people manually note the comment they're responding to, is probably the best implementation that can be had with linear comments. IMO it's not ideal, but it's not hard to deal with, and deal with it I do.

#40 ::: Neil in Chicago ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 12:58 PM:

Reminding me yet again of my assertion that we're at the incunabula stage of electronic information development.
How long after Gutenberg did follow-on innovations like "page numbers" become conventions?

#41 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 01:15 PM:

Serge Broom #35: My normal temperature is between 96.something and 97.something. As I generally say, my engine runs cool.

#42 ::: Fragano Ledgister ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 02:06 PM:

Fidelio #37: I'm told only in English.

#43 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 03:27 PM:

I've had some pretty high fevers in my day, and some pretty spectacular hallucinations. The most vivid one was when I was a kid: my bed lifted up from the floor, spun around deosil, and zoomed out the window. When I came to myself slightly I was quite startled to be in my room, and not in the back yard.

My most recent bout of very high-fever hallucination (some years ago now, praise be to Hygieia) was vaguer, but involved an extremely large pile of blue crystals. I think there was a brief appearance by this young lady. I wrote this about it:

Sister and Brother

It’d been too long since I was with the young
Miss D. I thrashed and moaned among my bed-
Clothes. Images that filled my fevered head
Squeezed upwards from the choking, soaking lung.
Blue crystals shattered. Tiny pieces flung
Themselves in all directions; then instead
Of falling, burst in light. My limbs like lead,
I staggered forth and placed upon my tongue

Two asp’rins. Elder brother joined I then;
The Shaper shaped me into restful sleep,
And wrapped in dreams and blankets in my den,
I plunged in darkness to the healing deep.
The fever broke, and I returned to ken,
And came forth, coughing, from the Dreamlord’s keep.

#44 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 03:30 PM:

Rats, forgot to say: when I'm sleeping restlessly, I'm told I talk in my sleep in no Earthly tongue.

#45 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 03:46 PM:

Xopher... ïa?ïa?

#46 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 03:55 PM:

Serge: I'm asleep when it happens, so I really have no idïa.

#47 ::: Serge Broom ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 04:14 PM:


Heh. The DreamQuest of Known Xopher?

#48 ::: Bruce Cohen (Speaker to Managers) ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 05:03 PM:

Probably the second nastiest fever I've ever had was the result of a 48 hour flu bug that left me pretty much incapable of thinking or speaking coherently. So I went to bed, drank plenty of liquids, and read almost all of the first 3 books of C. J. Cherryh's "Morgaine" series in between naps basting in my own sweat. My description of a lot of her writing is, "like falling downstairs in the middle of a barroom1 brawl between biker gangs using energy beam weapons and magical cutlery", and I've since confirmed that it wasn't just the fever that made it feel that way.

1. Yes, that's the sound of an elephant farting in a barn.

#49 ::: Lenora Rose ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 06:42 PM:

On comment threading or not: I jhust ran into a rather annoying instance of Both, when commenting on Mur Lafferty's Dear Daughter post. When I first commented, replies to another comment were threaded. When last I went there to read, all threading seems to have vanished in favour of purely chronological order (no obvious place to toggle the settings that I saw, wand I hadn't done anything differently in going over to look). This is a problem, because, with threaded comments, one doesn't need to say, for example, "Sergei Mop @ comment 46 3/4:" or cite the previous text. When something begins threaded and the threading unspools, a lot of conversational coherence is lost that would have been manually maintained if it began unthreaded.

#50 ::: Tangurena ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 07:15 PM:

Lee @ 4... Many blogs trap the word that comes before "second" as a spam word. Transposing the "ir" into "ri" gets through. The most amusing is the now defunct "f'd" which used to add a random number of hours (usually 18ish) to the post time and change all instances of "that word before second" into "boobies" or some other rude word.

#51 ::: Nancy C. Mittens ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 09:28 PM:


Yes, he was looking for information, not conversation.

Lorax, I suspect because he was just looking for information, he found it annoying.

#52 ::: Jim Macdonald ::: (view all by) ::: April 19, 2012, 09:36 PM:

Let's look at the options:

You can make getting to know the community members very difficult and make conversation nearly impossible, or you could be gamed by astroturfers if the mods aren't doing their jobs.

#53 ::: David Goldfarb ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2012, 01:55 AM:

Niall McAuley @34: There was someone here who created a workflow for Macs that automates the link process. I should remember who it was, but I don't. (To that person: Thank you very much, and I'm deeply sorry.)

Jacque @38: I also started out using rn, but when I tried trn my first reaction was, "This is interesting; I need to try it more, but I think I like it." Two days later, I knew I liked it. A week later I wondered how I'd ever got along without it.

Lee @39: LJ recently added a thing where comments that are new since you last looked at a post have a little box on them saying "new comment", which is an improvement. But yeah.

#54 ::: Mycroft W ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2012, 12:38 PM:

I *love* trn. And all threaded newsreaders since. Yes, it feels a little disjointed, but I can keep 7-10 conversations in my head from last time I read news, and order them in chronological time as I fly.

Threaded blogs are anathema - because there's nothing there that takes you through "all the new posts, and just the new posts." So it's *really really hard* to know that someone replied to your reply to something, because it's only one of 40 comments there.

It's mostly why I dislike the fact that weblogs have won over Usenet. But ah well.

#55 ::: Carrie S. ::: (view all by) ::: April 20, 2012, 12:47 PM:

Mycroft, that's one of the reasons I'm grateful for the LJ option that allows me to get email when someone replies to one of my comments.

I have only recently gone back into LJ, because that's where the fanfic is...

#56 ::: Alan Braggins ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2012, 04:40 AM:

A bit dated, but see also
"News already has a good interface to threaded, asynchronous discussions; Livejournal has a terrible one."

#57 ::: Dave Bell ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2012, 07:17 AM:

I think one of the important points is that NNTP news has a specified set of pointers that can be attached to each message. Everybody in the reader business uses the same data specification, and writes programs with a different UI.

In this modern world, the desire is to control both the data and the UI.

That desire to control the data format has some advantages, but it is questionable in other ways.

#58 ::: Lee ::: (view all by) ::: April 21, 2012, 01:41 PM:

Carrie, #55: Quite a bit of fanfic has moved over to DreamWidth in the wake of the last couple of LJ-fails, so you may want to set up an account there as well. I have extra DW invitations if you need one.

#59 ::: Daniel Klein ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 12:14 PM:

So how about we weigh comments based on some version of a karma system? At its most simple this could simply be "how many posts has this user posted here before", with clearly astroturfing users swiftly banned and restricted to creating new accounts all the time. Alternatively one could have something like Reddit's comment karma, only we'd use it to decide whose comments to put first. I don't think Reddit is doing that yet, are they?

#60 ::: David Harmon ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 12:36 PM:

Daniel Klein #59: then (1) newbies will find it hard to join a conversation involving old-timers, and (2) comments will drift along with changes in karma. Plus you lose the chronological conversation.

#61 ::: Daniel Klein ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 12:49 PM:

I guess those are both real problems. So how about we craft this onto a threaded comment system where the veteran's comment only promotes the thread she's posting in, not her actual comment? So if a newbie makes a point a veteran finds interesting enough to comment on then that newbie's original comment is promoted.

Could go further and add karma total of all people posting in a thread (to get a feeling for how important the entire community things this thread is) etc.

(I'm not saying Making Light's current implementation of "a commenting system on a blog" doesn't work; clearly it works really well. But I'm a geek and I love tinkering with systems, and hey if the result is a system that requires fewer TNHs (who are a scarce resource I hear) and that self-regulates to some degree, then that would be cool too!)

#62 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 01:44 PM:

Daniel Klein @61 -- and that leads directly to the problems discussed in Scott Westerfeld's Extras -- not a direction that actually encourages conversation.

#63 ::: Xopher HalfTongue ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 01:48 PM:

Daniel, the fundamental problem is that it takes a lot of work to change it, the people who would have to do that work are very busy, and the owners like it the way it is (or so I surmise).

#64 ::: Daniel Klein ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 09:04 PM:

@61: Tom, I'm not familiar with that book. What is the problem discussed in it? I'm guessing it has to do with cliques and elites?

@62: Yeah, totally. I'm just thinking aloud here. It's also something we talk about at work, where we have a humongous community; if we ever wanted to change fundamentally the way comments worked on say our website, what would be the best approach that actually scaled well without requiring a LOT of moderators. I would love for someone to try these things though.

#65 ::: Tom Whitmore ::: (view all by) ::: April 24, 2012, 11:58 PM:

It's the fourth of the Uglies series: after the revolution, people get explicit social status based on how many people do the equivalent of following them on the Web. And there are a lot of problems with that....

#66 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2012, 07:31 PM:

The worst fever I've ever had was about 104°F. I was not only hallucinating, but I was stone deaf (it was an inner ear infection) and dehydrated; on top of underfed.

I had read Tony Boucher's, "They Bite" the night before.

It was epic, and blissfully I don't recall much of it. It was one of the dreams in which I have landed from a great height.

Then again, I have died in my dreams. Once by drowning. It's not that bad, but it's never what I expect either.

#67 ::: Terry Karney ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2012, 07:41 PM:

skwid @6: I am against karma sorting. All it takes is to be interested in a position which is against the grain of a group, and one is hosed. This might be useful for a limited interest forum, but not one which is wide ranging.

I spend time in the Men's Rights subreddit. I use a different account there than in the rest of reddit. It's not just to keep myself from being hounded (not a real problem, but I'm not active in the other subreddits they hate), because that account has a strongly negative comment karma, and there isn't any way I can see to overcome it, short of not ever making a comment in /mr.

#68 ::: P J Evans ::: (view all by) ::: April 26, 2012, 09:09 PM:

I've died at least twice in dreams. (It wasn't at all scary, either time. I think if either one of those happened to me in real life, though, I'd be scared.)

#69 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2012, 12:49 AM:

The Republicans think different times were better for different people. Policemen, for instance, now weren't they happier before Miranda and the exclusionary rules and those other activist decisions by the Warren Court? On the other hand, corporations are people too, my friends, and they're still a minority (except maybe in states like Delaware), and would a corporation want to have to live back in the early 1800s, when they could be living in the early 2000s instead? No way, not unless they were one of the privileged few, like Hudson's Bay or the Dutch East India Company, and even for them things were still pretty primitive.

#70 ::: Bill Stewart ::: (view all by) ::: April 29, 2012, 10:08 PM:

My comment #69 was meant to be over on the "Getting More Than 2 Bits' Worth" thread - sorry. If it's ok, I'll post it over there.

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