Nielsen Hayden genealogy

Margaret verch Llewelyn

Female - 1265


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  • Name Margaret verch Llewelyn  [1, 2, 3
    Gender Female 
    Died 1265  [4
    Alternate death Aft 1268  [5
    Person ID I656  Ancestry of PNH, TNH, and others | Ancestor of Barbara Hagan, Ancestor of DDB, Ancestor of JTS, Ancestor of TNH, Ancestor of TSW, Ancestor of TWK
    Last Modified 26 Apr 2018 

    Father Llewelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth,   b. Abt 1173,   d. 11 Apr 1240, Aberconwy Abbey, Conwy, Wales Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 67 years) 
    Mother (One of the several mistresses of Llewelyn ap Iorwerth) 
    Family ID F1936  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 1 John de Brewes,   b. Abt 1197, of Gower, Swansea, Wales Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. Between 1231 and 1232  (Age ~ 34 years) 
    Married 1219  [5, 6, 7
    Children 
    +1. William de Brewes,   b. Abt 1224, of Bramber, Sussex, England Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. 6 Jan 1291, Findon, Sussex, England Find all individuals with events at this location  (Age ~ 67 years)
    +2. Richard de Brewes,   b. Bef 1232, of Stinton in Salle and Heydon, Norfolk, England Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. Bef 18 Jun 1292  (Age < 60 years)
    Last Modified 30 Apr 2018 
    Family ID F2145  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

    Family 2 Walter III de Clifford,   b. of Clifford, Herefordshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. Bef 23 Dec 1263 
    Married Bef 2 Nov 1234  [3, 5, 8, 9
    Children 
    +1. Maud de Clifford,   b. of Clifford, Herefordshire, England Find all individuals with events at this location,   d. Between 1282 and 1285
    Last Modified 15 Apr 2018 
    Family ID F3791  Group Sheet  |  Family Chart

  • Notes 
    • Also known as Marared; Margred; Margaret of Wales.

      Notes on the parentage of Gwladus and Margaret, daughters of Llwelyn ap Fawr:

      Complete Peerage (IX: 276) and Royal Ancestry both give Gwladus as a daughter of Joan of England. Royal Ancestry gives Margaret as an illegitimate daughter of Llywelyn.

      The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography says that Joan was "probably" the mother of Gwladus and Margaret.

      In The American Genealogist 41:99 (1965), Walter Lee Sheppard notes that "DNB's account gives Joan only the son David with Helen as probable. Lloyd's History of Wales [...] includes a chart so drawn as to make the maternity of the daughters questionable, and omits Angharad altogether. Prof. Thomas Jones Pierce in his article on Joan in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography names David, but does not mention the daughters at all; but then his cited sources are ony DNB and Lloyd's History of Wales in earlier editions. The correspondence of the writer with Sir Anthony Richard Wagner, Garter Principal King of Arms, however, indicates that all these daughters, with the exception of Gwladys, have been accepted by Major Francis Jones, best known authority on Welsh pedigrees, and based on British Museum Manuscript Add. 15041, on folio 12a, which shows Joan to be mother of David, Gwenlian, Angharad, and Margaret. It is interesting to note that [Complete Peerage] 9:276, under Mortimer of Wigmore, identifies Gwaldys as Joan's daughter."

      Later in the same publication, TAG 41:22, Sheppard provides an addendum, first quoting a letter from E. D. Jones, Librarian of the National Library of Wales: "Robert Vaughan of Hengwrt, a reliable seventeenth century authority, makes Gwladys full sister to Gruffydd, therefore the daughter of Tangwystl. He makes Gwenllian, Angharad and Marred (Margaret) to be daughters of Joan. I am inclined to accept the view that Gwladys Ddu was the daughter of Tangwystl, but in the absence of contemporary records it is not wise to be too dogmatic." Sheppard then continues: "Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCVO, Garter Principal King of Arms, in a letter to the writer dated 24 Sept. 1964, states that he would accept Margaret as Joan's daughter and, presumably, the other daughters, except Gwladys. He refers to Major Francis Jones and the previously cited British Museum Additional MS, which shows Joan to be mother of David, and points out that the chronology also fits."

      Peter C. Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies (1974-83, searchable here; use the search term "Gruffudd ap Cynan 04"), gives Tangwystl as the mother of Gwladus and Joan as the probable mother of Margaret.

      William Addams Reitwiesner's "The Children of Joan, Princess of North Wales," in The Genealogist 1:80, Spring 1980, argues that we have no certain basis for regarding Joan as the mother of any of Llywelyn's daughters.

      On 9 April 1999, Douglas Richardson posted the following to SGM: "As for the Welsh tradition that any son, legitimate or otherwise, could make a claim to succeed Llywelyn, you may recall that Llywelyn and his son, David, went out of their way to have David recognized as Llywelyn's sole heir, to the exclusion of Llywelyn's illegitimate sons. To accomplish this, they had Llywelyn's wife, Joan, legitimized. The legitimization of Joan was no small feat seeing she was surely born out of wedlock to King John's mistress. Also, they sent David to England to be recognized as Llywelyn's sole heir by the English overlord, David's own uncle, King Henry III. Interestingly, the records of this trip show that David was accompanied by none other than his sister, Gladys. Due to the nature of this trip, it seems odd that Gladys would accompany David on this trip, UNLESS she too was a legitimate child of Llywelyn and Joan. These two pieces of evidence convince me that Gladys was legitimate."

  • Sources 
    1. [S128] The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant, Extinct or Dormant. Full citation details here.

    2. [S977] The Blackmans of Knight's Creek: Ancestors and Descendants of George and Maria (Smith) Blackman by Henry James Young. Carlisle, Pennsylvania: 1980.

    3. [S1526] The Ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz, Wife of Reverend John Owsley, Generations 1-15, Fourth Preliminary Edition by Ronny O. Bodine and Bro. Thomas Spalding, Jr. 2013.

    4. [S839] William Addams Reitwiesner, "The Children of Joan, Princess of North Wales." The Genealogist 1:80, Spring 1980.

    5. [S142] Royal Ancestry, by Douglas Richardson. Kimball G. Everingham, ed. 2013.

    6. [S145] Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists Who Came to America Before 1700, by Frederick Lewis Weis and Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. 8th edition, William R. Beall & Kaleen E. Beall, eds. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Company, 2004, 2006, 2008.

    7. [S351] Walter Lee Sheppard, "Joan, Princess of Wales, Daughter of King John: Ancestress to Bulkeley, James, Mellowes, Welby, Whittingham, Haugh, and St. John-Whiting Families." The American Genealogist 35:29, 1959.

    8. [S839] William Addams Reitwiesner, "The Children of Joan, Princess of North Wales." The Genealogist 1:80, Spring 1980., "before 2 November 1232".

    9. [S351] Walter Lee Sheppard, "Joan, Princess of Wales, Daughter of King John: Ancestress to Bulkeley, James, Mellowes, Welby, Whittingham, Haugh, and St. John-Whiting Families." The American Genealogist 35:29, 1959., "after 1233".